Military Review

Karabakh lessons for Russia

282
The military conflict between Azerbaijan and the unrecognized Nagorno-Karabakh Republic (with Armenia behind) is over. Azerbaijan has a complete and unconditional victory. The enemy actually has surrender. And salvation lies only in Russian peacekeepers.


There will be many conclusions on the Karabakh conflict as information is disclosed. But already now a number of very important lessons can be learned for us.

1. "If you want peace, prepare for war"


The fact that in Karabakh everything is moving towards the "hot option" was clear several years ago. But if one side (Azerbaijan) was stubbornly preparing for this, then the other (the military-political leadership of Armenia) was preparing, in fact, for parades.


Photo: Armineaghayan, wikimedia.org

Amazingly, even the badly needed Torahs were purchased by Armenia on a modular vehicle chassis. While the difficult terrain clearly required tracked chassis for effective combat use of the air defense missile system. The decision makers simply did not think about the possibility and likelihood of a serious war.

Two quotes are worth mentioning here.

First about Azerbaijanis:

Last year I was in Tambov for many days, on a business trip. And I watched as officers in Azerbaijani uniforms (several dozen) almost in formation every morning at 7:45 went to classes at the Tambov Academy of Radio Communication. Every day, in the rain, do not care. Very organized, just like the Germans. Compared to our gouges - heaven and earth.


And the second, from the recording of the conversation presumably between Samvel Babayan and Arayik Harutyunyan ( link):

“Yesterday I tried to organize an operation with three battalions. We have four howitzers in total. If we are not provided with artillery, how will you support the offensive or cut off his (enemy's) tails? Impossible and pointless. Here is the real state of affairs ... Imagine, we have two "hailstones" for the entire army today, a dozen howitzers on which we have neither shells nor shit ... Even if tomorrow we are given a hundred "hailstones", we have no specialists that can be used to equip the crews and launch these vehicles into battle. In the last days, the artillery has been fighting / losing. Everyone is killed by drones, shells, tornadoes and missiles ... We have no ammunition. "

We are fine"? How to say. A few examples:

SKSHU "Kavkaz-2020" or the Black Sea defeat of the Russian fleet

Ceremonial splendor and combat effectiveness. About the Main Naval Parade and not only

It is not difficult to see that in many ways the Russian Navy (and not only the Russian Navy) is preparing for parades rather than for war. We are actually repeating the mistake of Armenia, even if this is not the case in all cases.

2. "Miracle weapon" (hypersound) did not help


Today Armenia is the only operator of the Iskander-E hypersonic strike missile system (which it proudly demonstrated at parades).


In practice, however, their near-zero combat effectiveness in this format of the conflict was revealed (although they had a certain political deterrent potential). At the same time, the fighting troops of Artsakh (and Armenia) did not even have simple UAV target designators in a minimal amount.

Of course, this does not mean that Iskander specifically (and hypersonic missiles in general) are unnecessary and ineffective. Figuratively speaking, for military policy it is "a dress coat for going out." However, on the character with “torn trousers and bare feet” (modern means of “conventional war”), as was the case in the case of the Armenian and NKR armies, this “tailcoat” was simply ridiculous.

Yes, in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, the situation with new tactical combat weapons is much better, but they are still not enough (and this is against the background of colossal material investments in “miracleweapon"). Just one example. Six months ago, a driver, a former serviceman of the RF Armed Forces (a sniper from Syria), gave a lift to the batteries: before business trips, people still massively throw off the batteries (and buy them on their own) ...

3. The role of UAVs


The most obvious example will be, perhaps, the best tactical UAV in the world in the early 2010s - Orlan-10.

Our “gallant Air Force” (in the late 2000s - early 2010s) “filled up” literally all the topics on the development of UAVs. "Orlan" was developed in a short time "under the wing" (in the system) of the Ground Forces, who really understood that they would have to fight very soon.

Yes, Orlan-10 is a success, and even a very large one. Certainly. He is one of the main "technical heroes" of the Syrian campaign. However, now we are in a situation close to the end of the 30s, when not long ago the excellent SB bomber began to rapidly become obsolete. The same thing is happening today with "Orlan". With the massive equipping of the enemy with shrapnel shells with an appropriate fire control system, the Eagles will simply "mow". Moreover, the problem (“what is needed” in the new conditions) is much more complicated than simply developing a new UAV (and requires a separate article).

With drone UAVs, the situation is even worse.

As for the “front News"On them from" Army-2020 ", then (taking into account the prices for new guided aerial bombs of the TRV Corporation lit up on the website) there are very bad premonitions about what the price tag will be for the UAV (and, accordingly, the serial production is scanty).

Despite the creation of a number of new anti-aircraft fire weapons, we have a very difficult situation with what is massively in the troops.

New "nails" (anti-UAV missiles) of industrial enterprises? The recent interview of the Chief Designer of the KBP became a "cold shower" in terms of the timing of their actual appearance in the ammunition of military air defense systems. And this for all the topicality of the topic of such missiles for "Pantsir" and "Thor".

"Derivation"? The complex, of course, is extremely useful and necessary, but the rate of admission to the RF Armed Forces - the situation with the "Armats" and "Kurgantsy" seems to hint ... which the USA went with their "Bushmaster"). Yes, this is not a 30-mm "Derivation", but this is what the troops already have in large quantities. And this is what, in a relatively short time, can massively saturate the troops with effective "anti-UAV air defense".

At the same time, we should think hard ourselves, how, for example, will the air defense of the Kaliningrad region look like during a massive strike of Polish small UAVs of destroyers?

Karabakh lessons for Russia

Small range? However, they are successfully used by special forces, and the experience of Syria (when similar UAVs were found near Khmeimim) more than hints ...

4. Harm of rabid propaganda, which creates a distorted idea of ​​the capabilities of the RF Armed Forces among the population


From the directive of the Deputy People's Commissar of the USSR Navy and the Head of the Main Political Directorate of the Navy, Army Commissar of the 2nd rank I.V. Rogova:
"Lies and lies in propaganda, agitation and the press discredit party political work, the naval press and cause exceptional harm to the cause ... of educating the masses."

The most serious failures and problems of the armed forces of Armenia and Artsakh were covered with propaganda chatter. Moreover, this continued practically until the end of hostilities (and the surrender of the Armenian side).


5. Underestimation of public reaction to the military disaster and lies of the leadership


Naturally, behind the lies in the media about "victories" against the background of a real military defeat in Armenia, a public reaction "blazed" in the form of mass riots, the seizure of the government building and demands for the resignation of the Prime Minister.


Unlike the riots in the United States, Soros had nothing to do with it. Moreover, his office also fell under the "distribution" of the crowd.

In our situation, everything is much worse, because there are professional structures preparing such actions and trained not only to competently "throw gasoline" on the "hot coals" of popular indignation, but skillfully direct it in the direction they need. Accordingly, the political consequences can be much more severe than in Armenia.

Will the Russian leadership take into account the lessons of Karabakh?
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  1. OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 15: 08
    -1
    Lesson №1

    Lesson №2


    When will the homework be done?
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 15: 29
      10
      Several systems are needed for anti-UAV air defense
      Near zone:
      1. Rapid-fire ZSU 30-40 mm with programmable shells. Turkish Korkut type

      2. SAM of the near zone of the Strela 10 / Sosna type


      Short-medium range:
      We need systems operating at an altitude of up to 15 km and a range of at least 40 km. With a lot of relatively cheap rockets. Iron Dome / LOWER AD


      We need new radars that can be guaranteed to detect various kinds of UAVs. From kamikaze to MALE.
      1. Runway
        Runway 14 November 2020 15: 50
        +6
        The tasks of the military air defense at the MSBr-AK link? Without a senior manager's funds, all your pictures = a goal. For whom the air will be (not blah, but the real domination of the IA, IBA / AA + the real combat support of the parts of the line) - he is from above.
        The massacre of the Armenians is proof of this.
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 16: 01
          +9
          Quote: WFP
          Who will be the air

          Naturally, capturing air superiority will give a decisive advantage. But it does not fully protect against small reconnaissance and kamikaze UAVs.
          In regional conflicts, the use of manned aircraft is limited. There is a big player behind each side who will not allow bombing their proxies with impunity.
          1. Runway
            Runway 14 November 2020 16: 23
            +8
            What is the combat support of subunits / units? winked
            I had a chance to be in the shoes of "out of touch with a naked woman ...." - not transmitted sensations (getting water / replacing the battery = high probability of being handed over).
            Organized combat support of the front end + commander working with his head - all sorts of priblud bummer / operators "scribe".
          2. Machito
            Machito 14 November 2020 16: 54
            15
            The author correctly raises the question of our readiness for local conflicts. The first call from the UAV sounded very alarming in Khmeimim, but there were drones assembled on our knees, and we fought back. It is clear from recent conflicts that the future belongs to drones. And we are not very much with them. Belarus is developing its own drones, and we have more and more news, like from Rogozmos.
            We love parades, but large-scale exercises are held. I especially liked the transfer of armies to the East. I think that the Chinese were shocked by our group, which was deployed in just two weeks.
            With the fleet, the situation is alarming, as the authors constantly write about on VO.
            The main thing after Karabakh is not to miss the Donbass, so that later you do not have to declare war on Ukraine.
            1. OgnennyiKotik
              OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 16: 58
              +4
              Quote: Bearded
              It is clear from recent conflicts that the future belongs to drones.

              And behind the jet for the Air Force and swarms of kamikaze drones for the Army / Air Force. They can really change the balance of power. Bayraktars, MQ-1/9 are good for certain tasks, but against echeloned air defense and forces with serious air forces, they are useless.

              1. Machito
                Machito 14 November 2020 17: 16
                +1
                Unmanned aerial vehicles are not only ground-based, but also land-based, surface and underwater. If in Karabakh the attack of air drones were supported by ground ones, the front would break through much faster and the loss of personnel would be less.
                The United States is actively developing marine drones, boats with a decent range.
                Gliders are very promising for the submarine fleet. On the good, a swarm of gliders must accompany each submarine in the form of a curtain, then the submarine will be the first to detect and destroy the enemy. It would be nice if a quadrocopter could be launched from a glider for reconnaissance, then the radius of detection and target designation for submarines would grow many times, without unmasking the submarine.
                Poseidon may well be called a glider, but a strategic one.
                There is also an interesting idea about underwater mines, which can be made with mines-torpedoes, after detecting an enemy, the mine will not stand still, but will turn on the engine and torpedo the enemy.
                Fantasy. Dreams. repeat fellow
                I’ll go upset, read Timokhin.
                1. OgnennyiKotik
                  OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 17: 20
                  +3
                  It hurts my ear when they say "sea and ground drones", they are unmanned. Tanks and submarines have crews, not pilots.
                  Quote: Bearded
                  The United States is actively developing marine drones, boats with a decent range.

                  There are plans to purchase 140-240 unmanned submarines and surface ships. Moreover, the surface-class Corvette.
                  1. timokhin-aa
                    14 November 2020 19: 06
                    +4
                    There are plans to purchase 140-240 unmanned submarines and surface ships.


                    These plans are insane and they will fail. By the way, they were voiced by Esper, whom Trump rather rudely asked to leave recently.
                    All this will not happen, the Americans will not take it out.
                    1. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 19: 15
                      0
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      All this will not happen, the Americans will not take it out.

                      Typical ships with a displacement of 1500-3000 tons? Will they not be taken out? I do not think so.
                    2. Cympak
                      Cympak 16 November 2020 08: 58
                      0
                      I think that the Americans may be able to create a capable grouping of marine drones, but only because I have a large number of surface ships, aircraft (both coastal and located on aircraft carriers) and satellites that will provide control and interaction with drones.
      2. Pavel73
        Pavel73 14 November 2020 17: 15
        +8
        Programmable shells are right and necessary. But for distances of 2000 m and closer, more primitive and simple means are needed. In my opinion, Shilka will work well for drones at ranges from 200 to 2000 m, you just need to upgrade the radar. Up to 200 m - a shotgun is needed, that is, an analogue of a machine gun, but of a larger caliber, capable of conducting automatic or semi-automatic fire with buckshot cartridges. A good prototype is AGS-17, you just need to re-barrel it. Well, at short distances up to 70-80 m - a regular 12-gauge shotgun with Magnum cartridges equipped with buckshot. And of course all of the above - in combination with electronic warfare and laser blinding.
        1. Wilderness
          Wilderness 14 November 2020 21: 42
          0
          It is even possible not by the drones themselves, but by their ammunition. Self-defense weapon, working in the last hundreds of meters. The target is physically flimsy, low-speed, I think a multi-barreled machine gun (like a minigun) in the teeth.
          1. bad
            bad 14 November 2020 23: 30
            +4
            Quote: Wilderness
            You can even not by the drones themselves, but by their ammunition

            It is better to work "on the ground" all the same - to destroy command posts, operators, UAV bases. Otherwise, it will turn out like the Syrians against the Israeli Air Force, working from foreign airspace. The Syrians cannot get it or have no right, and are forced to shoot only at incoming ammunition - a losing position in advance.
            P. c. I have nothing against Israel, just a statement of fact
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 15 November 2020 11: 12
              +6
              "It is better all the same to work" on the ground "- to destroy command posts, operators, UAV basing sites" ///
              ---
              KP, operators can be thousands of kilometers away, base sites - hundreds of kilometers away.
              Iskander is not enough ...
              Drones have to be shot down in the air, just like regular planes.
              And develop new air defense systems.
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 15 November 2020 12: 05
                +6
                Quote: voyaka uh
                Iskander is not enough ...

                So it is necessary to press the control lines and disable the UAV electronics - this is the most vulnerable for them. Well, at the same time, in the area of ​​hostilities, to display the entire GPS system for hundreds of kilometers in a radius will seriously complicate the accuracy of the use of the UAV.
                1. vlad106
                  vlad106 23 November 2020 17: 50
                  0
                  In short, work comprehensively
        2. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 15 November 2020 11: 08
          +3
          "Shilka works well, you just need to upgrade the radar" ///
          ----
          Upgrading the radar means 3/4 of the installation cost will be
          make up a radar and an MSA, and 1/4 - everything else: Shilka, a car, etc.
      3. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 14 November 2020 21: 02
        +6
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        We need systems operating at an altitude of up to 15 km and a range of at least 40 km. With a lot of relatively cheap rockets.

        Already point 2 is a complete anrial. Alas! Scoundrel Newton with his apple out of place proved that it always falls down. By definition, there cannot be inexpensive systems that shoot 15 upward and 40 km sideways. Shells falling from above are always two orders of magnitude cheaper, as well as a carrier capable of gaining altitude slowly, spending time on the applied force.

        It has already been pointed out more than once that today's standard air defense systems are too expensive and ineffective for countering UAVs. Apparently the only means is, as in ancient times, to knock out with a wedge-wedge. Create an air defense UAV.
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 21: 26
          0
          Therefore, I am writing "relatively" in relation to the current medium-range missiles.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Air defenses are too expensive and ineffective for countering UAVs.

          Therefore, we urgently need to develop new systems and modernize the current ones. First of all, new radars are needed.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Create an air defense UAV.

          An unknown animal. I have not heard of such developments. Except for the MQ-1/9 with stingers and the AIM-9X.
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 14 November 2020 22: 31
            +1
            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            Therefore, I am writing "relatively" in relation to the current medium-range missiles.

            Whether current or future. Any system that fires from bottom to top is an order of magnitude more expensive than a system that attacks down. Except for the future fantastic plasma-laser. Any projectile with a mass down falls more readily, gravity damn it!

            UAV is a combat system with a dramatically reduced attack cost compared to ground based systems. It is not serious to fend off it head-on by developing today's ultra-expensive air defense systems designed to repel nuclear warheads.
            1. Elturisto
              Elturisto 14 November 2020 23: 42
              13
              Absolutely correct remark. Whether there will still be. In many countries, work is already underway to automatically select targets by a drone in autonomous mode. It will be a tough thing. But the Orthodox army has priests with censers and a patriot park with a temple ...
              1. MrFox
                MrFox 15 November 2020 14: 33
                +2
                That is why work on artificial intelligence is so important. Target recognition on board means less operator workload, less bandwidth requirements and less time to use weapons
                1. Elturisto
                  Elturisto 15 November 2020 16: 52
                  +2
                  Yes, this is actually not artificial intelligence, just a selection based on a databank in the brains of the UAV. A swarm of UAVs using an inertial navigation system arrives at the target search area and independently searches for SSH-68 helmets, for example, and makes an attack after identification, independently.
                2. Kara
                  Kara 17 November 2020 18: 32
                  -2
                  Quote: MrFox
                  That's why work on artificial intelligence is so important.

                  What if the enemies take the AI ​​to their side? Does the hell know what's in his head?
                  1. MrFox
                    MrFox 19 November 2020 21: 30
                    0
                    This cannot be allowed. It's time for MO to take Skynet
          2. Vitaly gusin
            Vitaly gusin 14 November 2020 23: 27
            0
            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            An unknown animal. I have not heard of such developments.

            You know that Israel is at the forefront of drone development.
            And now the time has come for the development of anti drones.
            US Army to test Israeli Skylord interceptor drones
            Israel Defense Ministry press release
            08.09.2020
            Skylord is one of the world's most advanced solutions to the problem of destroying hostile UAVs.


            IAI and Iron Drone have partnered to integrate interception capabilities into Drone Guard, a drone defense system, Drone Guard from IAI. The interceptor drone can be launched during the day or at night from a docking station that houses several ready-to-use drones. Several interceptor drones can be launched simultaneously to engage multiple targets or swarms. IAI ELTA Systems, which designs and manufactures the Drone Guard system, has sold over 100 units that detect, identify and disrupt malicious drones.

            It is clear that this is the beginning.
            But the road will be mastered by the walking (s)
            1. OgnennyiKotik
              OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 23: 45
              +3
              When you can intercept your Harop, then you can talk about an interceptor UAV. And what is shown in the video is decided by buying a drone on an alika and hanging a net on it.
              1. Vitaly gusin
                Vitaly gusin 14 November 2020 23: 56
                0
                Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                And what is shown in the video is decided by buying a drone on an alika and hanging a net on it.

                You didn't pay attention to the last two sentences I wrote.
                I don't think that in the US they know less than YOU, but if I'm wrong, you can offer your services for videoconferencing.
                But to date, Iranian drones from the territory of Syria and Lebanon have strayed either to the border, or immediately at the border.
                1. OgnennyiKotik
                  OgnennyiKotik 15 November 2020 00: 06
                  -2
                  Quote: Vitaly Gusin
                  But to date, Iranian drones from the territory of Syria and Lebanon have strayed either to the border, or immediately at the border.

                  Say thanks to RER, Air Defense, Air Force. And most importantly, intelligence. Israeli electronic warfare and air defense / missile defense systems are sharpened for such purposes (drones, shells, missiles). Electronic warfare UAVs have proven themselves well by the way, but UAV interceptors are still dreams. Except of course MQ-9 with AIM-9X. Which also holds true for life. 1 UAV with radar, a couple with V-V missiles. Why not?
                  1. Vitaly gusin
                    Vitaly gusin 15 November 2020 00: 36
                    -1
                    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                    UAV interceptors are still dreams.

                    Founding theorist of the State of Israel, Theodor Herzl said:
                    “It won't be a fairy tale, if you like,” and this is the practice in modern Israel.
            2. ccsr
              ccsr 15 November 2020 12: 12
              -8
              Quote: Vitaly Gusin
              You know that Israel is at the forefront of drone development.

              What are you doing on trifles - Israel has long been the state number 1 in the world in terms of its status, and all other countries only pray for their achievements ...
              When will you stop being braggart? All your "scientific" in military affairs is just a copy of other people's successes, with the exception of some developments, which are often inferior to what the military-industrial complex of the leading countries of the world is doing. Our Tu-143 was much more perfect in the seventies than most of your current drones, and if we don't pay much attention to this area, it's not because we don't know how, but because our Strategic Missile Forces don't need it.
              1. Vitaly gusin
                Vitaly gusin 15 November 2020 12: 44
                +1
                Quote: ccsr
                Our Tu-143 was much more perfect in the seventies,

                You read little, and empty patriotism is fraught.
                Do not be lazy and read.
                Aerospace defense
                http://www.vko.ru/voyny-i-konflikty/mir-galilee-razgrom-dlya-rtv
                In June 1982, during the First Lebanon War, during Operation Artsav-19, a largest since WWII war air battle, in which the Israelis with the help of UAVs AQM-34, Tadiran Mastiff and IAI Scout defeated the air defenses of Syria and Lebanon.
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 15 November 2020 13: 53
                  -5
                  Quote: Vitaly Gusin
                  defeated the air defenses of Syria and Lebanon.

                  What kind of "powerful" forces these are - as much as horror ... By the way, these drones were American, not Israeli production.


                  Quote: Vitaly Gusin
                  In June 1982, during the First Lebanon War, during Operation Artsav-19, the largest since the Second World War unfolded in the skies over Lebanon.

                  Stop lying, because the air battles in Korea and Vietnam were much larger than in Israel - you can't do without bragging here either.
                  1. Vitaly gusin
                    Vitaly gusin 15 November 2020 16: 27
                    0
                    Quote: ccsr
                    By the way, these drones were American, not Israeli.

                    Tadiran mastiff was developed by Tadiran Tadiran Ltd - a company founded in 1958 as part of the Israeli military-industrial complex. Most of the production went to the US market.
                    AI Scout - tactical reconnaissance UAV, developed by the Israeli firm IAI.
                    AQM-34 was an American development in 1948, the first flight of the created device took place in 1951 and it was inferior to Israeli ones.
                    I UNDERSTAND YOU, YOU HAVE HARD TO BELIEVE THAT ISRAEL IS A SUFFICIENT, MODERN, HIGH-TECHNOLOGY STATE.
                    Quote: ccsr
                    Stop lying,

                    Well, this is not for me

                    Peter Moiseenko
                    Colonel, Head of the Tactics Department
                    and weapons of radio engineering troops
                    Military Academy of Aerospace Defense,
                    Candidate of Military Sciences

                    Valentin TARASOV
                    Major General, Associate Professor, Department of Tactics
                    and armament of radio engineering troops of the Military
                    Academy of Aerospace Defense,
                    Candidate of Military Sciences, Professor
                    More details: http://www.vko.ru/voyny-i-konflikty/mir-galilee-razgrom-dlya-rtv
                    Just do not forget to indicate your rank and position.
                    1. ccsr
                      ccsr 16 November 2020 12: 00
                      -1
                      Quote: Vitaly Gusin
                      AQM-34 was an American development in 1948, the first flight of the created device took place in 1951 and it was inferior to Israeli ones.

                      So this is where all of Israel's "successes" in the construction of drones grow, which received the American development in finished form and improved it after the American UAV had been used for ten years. And it is not at all a fact that the "improvements" were made by Israel and were not American modernization.
                      Quote: Vitaly Gusin
                      I UNDERSTAND YOU, YOU HAVE HARD TO BELIEVE THAT ISRAEL IS A SUFFICIENT, MODERN, HIGH-TECHNOLOGY STATE.

                      It was never like this - your propaganda chatter is designed for people who do not know much, and those who really know what your state is like, understand that without the protectionist actions of the United States and Western European countries, and without money injections from various structures, you would they could not even feed them, because you would not have been able to afford such military expenditures, as well as the maintenance of the Orthodox. But you keep telling how cool everything is with you, maybe there will be simpletons who will believe it. We, too, fools shouted that Ukraine was feeding the entire USSR, but in the end it turned out to be completely different ...
                      1. Vitaly gusin
                        Vitaly gusin 16 November 2020 12: 28
                        +2
                        Quote: ccsr
                        It was never like this - this propaganda chatter of yours is intended for people with little knowledge,

                        laughing laughing laughing
                        You write this while looking in the mirror, step back and READ.
                        Russia will continue assembling Israeli drones for up to 10 years. The total volume of purchases can be up to $ 1,7 billion
                        In 2010, the Israeli company "Aviation Industry" entered into a deal with Russia worth 400 million dollars to transfer UAV technology to the Russian military
                        In 2015, Russia and Israel struck another major deal after Russia intervened in an alleged sale of Israeli drones to Ukraine. The Israelis backed out of the deal after Russia voiced its objections and ended up selling the batch of drones to Russia.
                        In your mind, Israel has become one of the leading countries in the world based on one UAV.
                        Your rudeness cannot replace the truth in any way.
                      2. ccsr
                        ccsr 16 November 2020 13: 21
                        -1
                        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
                        Russia will continue assembling Israeli drones for up to 10 years. The total volume of purchases can be up to $ 1,7 billion

                        We and Chinese consumer goods buy much larger amounts, because it is cheap, and what of that? We are not so interested in this class of UAVs as to spend production capacity on it and engage in our own development. In Israel, everyone does not drive Israeli cars, and no one cares that they are not kosher. Are we worse?
                        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
                        In 2015, Russia and Israel struck another major deal after Russia intervened in an alleged sale of Israeli drones to Ukraine.

                        Enough of telling your Israeli fables - I know very well how they bought satellite communication stations in Israel, because the Americans did not allow them to be sold to Russia, that's why there is no need to hang noodles about your "scientific" achievements in changing the label.
                        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
                        Your rudeness cannot replace the truth in any way.

                        As well as your lie about "Israel's world achievements" in the production of weapons and military equipment.
                      3. Vitaly gusin
                        Vitaly gusin 16 November 2020 14: 27
                        0
                        Quote: ccsr
                        As well as your lie about "Israel's world achievements" in the production of weapons and military equipment.

                        Israel's military industry is based on three state-owned companies: Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI), Israel Military Industries (IMI) and Rafael Armament Development Authority of Israel. ...
                        State Enterprise Israel Military Industries - IMI, employing 3,8 thousand people , 60% of production is exported.
                        Rafael Armament Development Authority of Israel (the number of employees is about 4,1 thousand people,
                        The sphere of activity of "Raphael" is the whole range of modern technologies, including: guided and unmanaged weapon systems, electronic warfare equipment, communication line protection systems, electro-optical systems, night vision devices, computer systems, fire control systems, telemetry systems, equipment for polygons, etc.
                        Rocket and space industry. The main manufacturers in the rocket and space sector are: IAI Corporation and a number of its subsidiaries (in particular, Electronics Division), Elta Electronics Industries, MBT Systems and Space Technology ), "MLM Systems Engineering and Integration" and "Tamam Instruments Industries" (Tamam Precision Instruments Industries). They are engaged in the development and production of space launch vehicles (LV) "Shavit" and "Next", OTR "Jericho-1" and MRBM "Jericho-2" "Jericho-3"
                        aircraft industry has about 30 enterprises: assembly, repair and aggregate-detailed.
                        All repair facilities are the property of subsidiaries of the Bedek Aviation Group, also part of IAI. These factories are undergoing modernization aircraft of ALL KINDS , repair of components and assemblies, as well as aircraft engines.
                        Armored industry represented by assembly, repair and assembly-detailed plants (there are 16 of them).
                        Artillery and rifle industry is represented by a number of enterprises capable of producing tank guns, self-propelled and towed howitzers, mortars, recoilless guns, flamethrowers, aircraft cannons, and anti-aircraft guns.
                        Shipbuilding industry represented by the Israel Shipyards shipyard in Haifa and by the Ramta Systems and Structures in Beersheba. the volume of production of the industry, military products is about 22%, and the export structure - 15,5%
                        In the radio-electronic industry employs about 200 companies, 45 of which produce products only for military purposes.
                        Israel has created its own powerful diversified military industry is an important component of foreign policy and military strategy and constitutes export 70-75% all military production.
                        INCLUDING RUSSIA.
                        You are not on TV, there are stupid things. no one to argue!
                      4. ccsr
                        ccsr 16 November 2020 17: 57
                        -2
                        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
                        State Enterprise Israel Military Industries - IMI, employing 3,8 thousand people,

                        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
                        the number of employees is about 4,1 thousand people,

                        After these figures, there is nothing further to talk about with you - you are just a chatterbox and an amateur in the military-industrial complex, and all your pitiful attempts to prove that you define something there in world developments, causes laughter in any Russian defense industry. Burn on, it seems to be a joy to you ...
          3. The comment was deleted.
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 15 November 2020 00: 37
      0
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      Create an air defense UAV.

      An unknown animal. I have not heard of such developments. Except for the MQ-1/9 with stingers and the AIM-9X.

      1.KARNIVORA: According to the presentation at the disposal of TASS, in the version of the interceptor "Karnivora" it is used to protect especially important military or infrastructure facilities. In the cargo compartment there are shot nets for capturing drones. After the shot, the net opens, captures the enemy's apparatus in the air and lands with him by parachute.


      2.The concept of the UAV-interceptor ...
  2. OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 21: 36
    0
    Yesterday there was only news about LOWER AD. They want a complex with a missile price of less than $ 150, AIM-000X price over $ 9, AIM-300 $ 000 million.
    https://topwar.ru/177008-mezhdu-stinger-i-patriot-v-ssha-predstavili-novuju-raketu.html#comment-id-10956471
    1. Vitaly gusin
      Vitaly gusin 15 November 2020 00: 19
      0
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      Yesterday there was only news about LOWER AD.

      Yes, I read, everyone is developing.
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 16 November 2020 12: 49
    0
    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
    Several systems are needed for anti-UAV air defense
    Near zone:
    1. Rapid-fire ZSU 30-40 mm with programmable shells.
    2. SAM of the near zone of the Strela 10 / Sosna type
    3 Short-medium range:
    We need systems operating at an altitude of up to 15 km and a range of at least 40 km. With a lot of relatively cheap rockets. Iron Dome / LOWER AD
    We need new radars that can be guaranteed to detect various kinds of UAVs. From kamikaze to MALE


    This is a delusion.
    Air defense cannot be strong everywhere!
    Air Defense - can effectively cover a certain area (for example, the area of ​​deployment of troops).
    Move the military air defense to the advanced troops, it will be opened by reconnaissance UAVs of a light class from the territory controlled by the enemy, while remaining undetected or outside the affected area, while the military air defense of direct cover will be within the radius of destruction of artillery and MLRS, after the suppression of air defense - The kamikaze UAVs will suppress the equipment and artillery in the forward echelons of defense.
    UAV-kamikaze are changing air defense tactics.
    You cannot cover the air defense logistics lines - they are too long, that is, kamikaze UAVs and shock UAVs, penetrating into the rear, cut the supply lines of the forward troops. Give each column an ​​AA defense boost? Overhead and diffuse effort.
    At the same time, UAVs can concentrate efforts to push through air defenses, quickly changing the areas of fire destruction.
    And the air defense is not in a position to change the area of ​​deployment just as quickly, while there is a possibility of hitting air defense systems on the march.

    Conclusion:
    - as a half measure, wearable electronic warfare equipment is needed for individual tactical units.
    - mobile electronic warfare devices are needed to cover large areas
    - to cover the forward forces, interceptor UAVs are needed with high speed and long braking time, capable of detecting and destroying enemy small tactical reconnaissance and strike UAVs.
    Only UAV interceptors can quickly change patrol areas, increase concentration, depending on the situation.

    The current situation is reminiscent of the late 30s, early 40s, when subsonic strike aircraft proved to be very effective against ground forces not covered by fighter aircraft. Only the current situation is at a new technological level - unmanned, but its speed is at the level of aviation of the late 30s.

    In 1944, especially after the Allied landing in Normandy and equipping the forward airfields in the landing zone, the Allied aviation paralyzed the supply of German troops to a depth of 150-200 km from the front line (during the daytime, of course).

    The situation in Karabakh showed that, at a new technological level, several kamikaze UAVs are able to paralyze logistics in a separate area both during the day and at night.

    Those. the next logical step in countering attack / defense systems should be unmanned interceptors kamikaze drones, tactical shock / reconnaissance UAVs, to neutralize such threats:
    armed
    - V-V missiles
    - cannon armament - as the cheapest means of destruction of light UAVs and kamikaze drones.

    Well, according to the logic of development, the chain of counteraction of unmanned attack-defense means will look something like this: shock UAVs will begin to be equipped with means of countering UAV interceptors (electronic warfare, thermal LC, passive jammers, defense systems, light-class V-B missiles, etc.) ...
    Interceptor UAVs will build up the potential of infrared detection equipment and weapons, speed, and increase the time of brazing over the covered area.
    Gradually, UAVs will go through the path of increasing speeds, as happened with a manned flight.
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 16 November 2020 13: 22
      -1
      Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
      as a half measure, wearable electronic warfare equipment is needed for individual tactical units.
      - mobile electronic warfare devices are needed to cover large areas

      What do you mean? Reconnaissance, defense, suppression?
      Protection and reconnaissance are necessary, suppression is limited for special operations.
      REP against current military UAVs are useless. In the future they will be useless squared. Autonomous UAVs with a choice of a target by video-IR selection, the REB capabilities will be nullified.
      Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
      to cover the forward forces, interceptor UAVs are needed with high speed and long brazing times, capable of detecting and destroying enemy small tactical reconnaissance and strike UAVs.
      Only UAV interceptors can quickly change patrol areas, increase concentration, depending on the situation.

      This is all about gaining air superiority. This is a question for the Air Force, not the Army and Air Defense. Do not mix everything together.
      Already, on the MQ-1/9, you can hang radar and missiles B-B, Aksungur and Akinchi from the Turks, Hermès 900 and Heron from Israel. But they have a lot of restrictions, including linear conditions.
      Ground-based air defense will not go anywhere, its role will only increase. But not what is now, it was created in the last century for other goals and objectives.
      Small interceptor drones are an interesting concept, but how is it better than a rocket launched? Platforms of the MQ-1/9 type are of limited use. Here are helicopter UAVs with radar to increase the detection range. For direct support of troops, systems of the IM-SHORAD type are needed (the composition of weapons is under discussion). But this is not pure air defense, but rather a universal means of engaging air and ground forces. By the way, if our BMPT add radar and MANPADS will be what you need.
      1. Dmitry V.
        Dmitry V. 16 November 2020 14: 11
        +1
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        REP vs current military UAVs are useless


        Let's clarify - only against UAVs with INS - useless, against UAVs with radio altimeters (without barometric) - it even helps if you set them a level - you can drop it (Example Iran with Sentinel), against kamikaze drones - suppression of the GPS signal works quite well - they ANNs are not equipped due to their relative cheapness., Block up information exchange channels - yes, at least three times they are encrypted, if the UAV does not exchange information, it is quite useless, since it is impossible to pass intelligence information and commands to use weapons.
        Perhaps you did not pay attention to this issue.
        Back in the GSVG, the tasks were set to oust AWACS from the air production of the FRG (successfully completed) and almost "dropped" the F-16 squadron redeployed from Italy to the FRG - with a loss of orientation (radio beacons and dispatch communications were hammered, loss of orientation - the operation was terminated at the request of NATO's North Atlantic Command).
        This is on equipment 30 years ago ...
        There already existed a high-speed exchange of information and a random dynamic change of frequencies - since then the range has only expanded - and it makes no difference to electronic warfare means - to crush a narrow range or interrupt communication in a wide range - the result will be the same, the breakdown of communication sessions.
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 16 November 2020 14: 51
          -2
          Sorry, but examples are taken from propaganda materials. The fact that the RQ-170 that fell in Iran was intercepted is not confirmed by anything, the version of a technical malfunction is more viable.
          There are no questions about work against Avaks radars, REP is more than effective against radars. There is already a question of the quality of the forces used. Who is faster and more efficient. They are destroying sources of interference and our fighters or we are destroying AWACS and their fighters.
          GPS is partly true for generations 1-2, but already in orbit 3. So far, not enough, but if necessary, they will be in the right places. For 1-2 generations, the same question is about the quality of equipment, the quality of signal selection. In a military environment, the source of interference will be target # 1.
          Through communication channels, everything is much more complicated. The UAV works against civilians. But the military is against the question of sectors and the range of interference, how the data transmission network is built, the terrain. Again, sources of interference are detected by the RER and destroyed by the same UAVs.
          In order to block high-frequency communication channels, an extremely large outfit of forces is needed. The transmission range is small, the power of the equipment must be very high, the sector is narrow, otherwise the interference density will not be enough. It is much easier to build a network of repeaters on the same UAVs. Also, the quality of communication equipment is growing and it cuts off interference better. To fly around, "interrupt", destroy the source of interference are simpler tasks than to create a single cloud of interference over the entire front.

          REP is an offensive weapon, it must be used in offensive operations, briefly suppress the radar and communication channels, using "deafness" and "blindness" to hit priority targets. This was done in all the wars of the second half of the 20th at the beginning of the 21st century, a huge number of examples. Here are just examples of the fact that REP has not protected someone. The fact that there are all controversial or applied in non-war conditions. The extreme war in Karabakh is a vivid example, more air defense and electronic warfare systems were destroyed than UAVs.
          1. Dmitry V.
            Dmitry V. 16 November 2020 15: 14
            0
            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            Sorry, but examples are taken from propaganda materials. The fact that the RQ-170 that fell in Iran was intercepted is not confirmed by anything, the version of a technical malfunction is more viable.


            In the event of a technical malfunction, the vertical rate of descent would be destructive, but otherwise the apparatus landed hard on its "stomach". Landing characteristic of a radio altimeter failure.

            Blocking the radio altimeter channel is as easy as shelling pears, and if the UAV does not have a barometric altimeter and does not compare the indicators with the radio altimeter, then "dropping" the UAV is a task for the senior student.

            You exaggerate the stress resistance of other UAVs to the effects of jamming radio channels, including satellite ones.
            I assure you, the ground installation will be orders of magnitude more powerful and will suppress control and communication channels hundreds of kilometers away, except for the INS navigation.

            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            The extreme war in Karabakh is a vivid example, more air defense and electronic warfare systems were destroyed than UAVs.

            So I am writing about this that the problem of detecting air defense of inconspicuous kamikaze drones planning bombs has become more acute than ever.
            Trading expensive TOP-M2 missiles for cheap drones is not the best economic solution.
            1. OgnennyiKotik
              OgnennyiKotik 16 November 2020 16: 42
              -2
              Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
              the vertical speed of descent would be destructive, and so - the apparatus landed hard on the "stomach"

              A huge number of examples of aircraft landing without working engines. The flying wing scheme has a huge lift, which allows you to glide for a long time and land safely. There have been examples in history when a jet plane, after ejection of the pilot, sat on its belly without damage.
              [center][thumb]https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2020-11/1605529422_63ad01b0-86c2-433d-9933-b140f1c617c8.jpeg

              Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
              Blocking the radio altimeter channel is as easy as shelling pears, and if the UAV does not have a barometric altimeter and does not compare the indicators with the radio altimeter, then "dropping" the UAV is a task for the senior student.

              Keyword "if". If there is no barometric altimeter, if there is no GPS connection, if there is no connection with the operator. Show a proven case study, not a Twitter post. Such experiments were only in artificial conditions.
              Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
              I assure you that the ground installation will be orders of magnitude more powerful and will suppress control and communication channels for hundreds of kilometers, except for the INS navigation

              How can I be sure if you write about physically impossible things. Hundreds of kilometers at what frequency? At what altitude? Which sector? What power is needed for this? Do you want to say that the cloud of interference will be 360 ​​degrees, in height from 0 to 15 km, in range from 0 to 400 km, at all frequencies? This is physically impossible.
              In reality, there will be a narrow sector, a maximum of several tens of degrees, the heights will be determined by radio visibility (the lower boundary is strongly influenced by the terrain). The signal strength needs to be high so that the communication equipment cannot recognize the correct signal. Frequencies will choke the most likely.
              Getting around all this is not a problem. Above, below the cloud of interference, go from other angles (rear), two UAVs from 2 angles at 120-180 degrees, raise the high-frequency network of repeaters (the higher the frequency, the shorter the transmission range, interference in the first place), unpredictably change frequencies or use several communication channels, etc.
              1. OgnennyiKotik
                OgnennyiKotik 16 November 2020 17: 09
                -1
                Image did not insert.
            2. OgnennyiKotik
              OgnennyiKotik 16 November 2020 16: 57
              -1
              Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
              So I am writing about this that the problem of detecting air defense of inconspicuous kamikaze drones planning bombs has become more acute than ever.
              Trading expensive TOP-M2 missiles for cheap drones is not the best economic solution.

              Detection is the main problem. How to impress is the second question. This requires new radars, including UAVs.
              Estimate not the cost of the rocket with the cost of the UAV, but with the damage caused by this UAV.

              Therefore, I need to write new different systems. TOP is not effective at all at the moment, it is simply not capable of hitting MALE at maximum operating ranges. The UAV optics see the TOP at a range of 15-25 km, the TOP missiles have a maximum range of 15 km. Against low-altitude roads, and the radar simply does not see them
              We need a separate normal cannon and separate missile (Sosna) complex against kamikaze and low-altitude UAVs, against MALE we need a cheap BUK 12 km in height, and at least 40 km in range. The main thing is new radars capable of detecting UAVs of all classes.
              Naturally, it is necessary to develop both laser systems and UAV interceptors, but "the enemy is at the gates", an urgent response is needed with the means that are already available.
    2. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 16 November 2020 13: 43
      -2
      Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
      cannon armament - as the cheapest means of destruction of light UAVs and kamikaze drones.
      To equip a UAV with a 30 mm cannon, it needs to weigh in the region of 8-10 tons, 20 mm tons 5. This will transfer the UAV into the category of a full-fledged attack aircraft / light fighter. Then you really need to make a full-fledged jet unmanned fighter / attack aircraft.
      1. Dmitry V.
        Dmitry V. 16 November 2020 14: 38
        +1
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        20 mm tons 5.


        Something I have suspicions that you are not very familiar with aviation, as well as with electronic warfare:
        Fighter La-9 Normal take-off weight: 3400 kg 4 NS-23 cannons with 75 rounds per barrel.

        Since then, a lot has changed:
        Previously, in a couple of days, I would have thrown a draft design - even offhand in terms of technical nonsense: put one "ballerina" (GSH-301, weight 44 kg, 30 mm, rate of fire, rds / min 1500) and ammunition load not 150, but 500 shells Total 500 * 0,837 kg = 418,5 kg, + stretcher and storage capacity of ammunition and shot casings - 700 kg will fit + -.

        The engine is a small-sized by-pass turbojet engine (TRDD) 37-01, developed and mass-produced at NPO Saturn (Rybinsk) and used as a propulsion engine in the 3M14 CRBD of the Caliber complex (modified in terms of resource).


        To select a guidance system and a communication system, guidance systems and optics from the existing range - in a couple of years it is really possible to connect the "economy" into a complex - a group of ten engineers will cope (with the appropriate access, of course, to a modern element base).
        At the exit, a compact UAV-Interceptor within the normal take-off weight of 3700-4700 kg.
        It is possible to reduce the cost due to the power plant - to pick up an inexpensive turboprop taxiway - in order to increase the brazing time.
        The only drawback of this concept is that an interceptor UAV will have to act as autonomously as possible in making decisions to open fire (which is not too happy) - it will have to fence the identification system and the respondent of state ownership - accordingly, limit the penetration zone into enemy territory or put a self-liquidator)
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 16 November 2020 15: 12
          -2
          Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
          Something I have suspicions that you are not very familiar with aviation, as well as with electronic warfare


          With aviation superficially, I do not argue. I was trained to provide stable communication, I work in software development. It is absolutely clear to me what electronic warfare facilities and modern information systems can and cannot.
          Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
          At the exit, a compact UAV-Interceptor within the normal take-off weight of 3700-4700 kg.

          Confirmed my words. It will be an interceptor close to 5 tons if 23 mm. Those. at least MQ-9, better than Predator C (Avenger), which is already a full-fledged attack / light fighter in terms of takeoff weight (8 tons).
          1. lelik613
            lelik613 19 November 2020 06: 42
            0
            The MiG-15 is suitable for analogs. By the way, mobile start, although of a different car
  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 16: 12
    +3
    Well, determine the place of a male class UAV such as Bayrakta in a front-line operation in opposition to 150 MRD somewhere in the steppes. Despite the fact that the combat formations of the MSD are covered, for example, 53 ZrBr and 14 and 31 IAP.

    There is a big player behind each side who will not allow bombing their proxies with impunity.


    Well, yes, he himself will sweep the snow, so that only scraps fly away. The lessons of the war for the NKAO are still more relevant for the local wars of the Third World countries between approximately comparable opponents ...
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 16: 28
      -1
      Quote: Cyril G ...
      Well, determine the place of the UAV-male class such as Bayrakta

      Replacement / reinforcement of RQ-7 in UAV platoons in Stryker Brigades (or similar formations).
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 16: 36
        +4
        What side, for example, is the Bayraktar-class apparatus replacing the RQ-7? And why the heck? If the UAV works in the interests of the brigade, it’s easier to happily slap in there a Half Packet of Grad. For hanging various toys on the UAV leads to a sharp increase in the size, cost and visibility of the vehicles.
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 16: 47
          -4
          Quote: Cyril G ...
          Bayraktar-class replacement for RQ-7? And why the heck?

          As part of a normal army, the tasks are the same. Reconnaissance, inflicting pinpoint strikes.
          Bayraktar TB2 is a "fat" RQ-7. Positioned between RQ-7 and MQ-1. There is an option that in the future, a car analogue of Bayraktar will go to the US Army

          1. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 17: 52
            +2
            And why in the brigade link, for example, a car that requires no runway for takeoff?
            Such a device is clearly redundant to replace the mentioned device ...
            1. OgnennyiKotik
              OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 18: 27
              -2
              Quote: Cyril G ...
              which no runway to take off?

              There is absolutely no runway needed, a more or less flat section of the road.
              Rather, a reinforcement, not a replacement.
              It flies further, weighs longer, sees more. Bayraktar TB2 is confirmed to carry 3 MAM-L (66 kg), which is a significant help in case of problems.
              The autonomy of the brigade increases, in some cases it is possible to do without the support of helicopters and aircraft.
              I don't really insist. Perhaps a combination of RQ-21 Blackjack and kamikaze drones or guided missiles, missiles will be more optimal. It is the RQ-7 that is already outdated.
              All the same, we must start from the theater of operations and tasks.
              1. Cyril G ...
                Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 19: 15
                +3
                Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                There is absolutely no runway needed, a more or less flat section of the road.


                You probably don't know. On Bayraktar, the engine has an extremely rotten run-up for quite a long time. Commercials at least 500-600 meters. There are also videos with flights. Take a look
                1. OgnennyiKotik
                  OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 20: 51
                  -4
                  Yes, it will. The Americans will clearly order themselves better.
                  It is the Bayraktar TB2 that is not particularly impressive, not the most outstanding aircraft. He's good in his niche. Relatively cheap with adequate data. You can safely transfer to the police, border guards, military intelligence, various proxies, expeditionary troops. The main thing is the MAM-L / TB-2 complex. A working donkey without embellishment.
                  I am rather talking about the class. A medium-altitude UAV, with a takeoff weight of 500-600 kg, capable of lifting 60-80 kg of bombs, hovering over the area for more than a day, is relatively cheap.
                  1. Cyril G ...
                    Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 21: 50
                    +1
                    this is a great help in case of problems.

                    This is a weakness that makes the apparatus much more noticeable. In my opinion, uninterrupted intelligence is an order of magnitude more important ...

                    A medium-altitude UAV, with a takeoff weight of 500-600 kg, capable of lifting 60-80 kg of bombs, hovering over the area for more than a day, is relatively cheap.


                    Something is superfluous here. Ukrainians bought Bayraktars apparently for a target of 10 lyamas apiece. A tale that the Turks make them for themselves at a price several times less, no more than a bike, for Bayraktar is essentially an assembly kit from imports.
                    A predator 10 years ago, a functional analogue of Bayraktar 10 years ago cost 4 million dollars. The modern Reaper is already worth $ 16 million.
                    1. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 21: 59
                      0
                      The price of Bayraktar TB2 is 2-3 million dollars for his army, in the region of 5 million for export. Information has come from various sources more than once. Bayraktar and Predator are different cars, in the same class purely conditionally.
                      Ukrainian contract
                      5 million * 6 pieces = 30 million aircraft
                      10 million * 3 pcs = 30 million ground stations
                      9 million Bombs, simulators, spare parts, training, etc. etc.
                      Maybe something is cheaper, something is more expensive. I assume there are 20-30% pullbacks in these amounts.
                      Here is a standard set of Bayraktars.
                    2. Cyril G ...
                      Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 22: 53
                      +1
                      10 million * 3 pcs = 30 million ground stations


                      What are you kidding? Take 8-10 million for a plane and put it down ..

                      The price of Bayraktar TB2 is 2-3 million dollars for his army,


                      I repeat - this is a rut, the plane is assembled from imported components. So the difference between imports and for yourself will be small. And you never know what the Turks will tell you more! They also need to be able to suck ...
                    3. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 23: 17
                      -2
                      Let's see analogs. I took the publication of a respected author. https://topwar.ru/163250-kitajskie-udarno-razvedyvatelnye-bpla-i-ih-boevoe-primenenie.html
                      With the price of one drone about $ 4 million, the buyers of CH-4A / B were Algeria, Jordan, Iraq, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Myanmar, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia.

                      In early 2018, the South China Morning Post reported that CASC had exported thirty CH-4Bs in bulk deals totaling $ 700 million.

                      30 * 4 = 120 million dollars, where 580 million?
                      700/30 = 23 million dollars, more expensive than MQ-1?
                      The first UAV flight Wing Loong made in 2007, in 2013 ... With an export value of about $ 1 million.

                      In 2017, Saudi Arabia struck a $ 10 billion deal for its own production of 300 Wing Loong II.

                      300 * 1 = 300 million dollars 9,7 billion for what?
                      10/000 = 300 million dollars, more expensive than Riper?

                      Maybe the planes themselves make up a smaller part of the contract price?
                    4. Cyril G ...
                      Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 23: 22
                      0
                      - Wing Long is noticeably simpler, worse, cheaper and made from the same Ketai materials.
                      - Bayraktar is made from imports.
                      - planes will be expensive, because aviation, thermal imaging, and so on are extremely expensive
                      - And the control station is not cheap, but hardly more than 3-4 million bucks, so count
                    5. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 23: 41
                      0
                      What is expensive in Bayraktar?
                      Engine? ROTAX 914: $ 28, buy tomorrow at https://okbmai.ru/rotaxbestprice/
                      Optics? IR camera? Laser guidance system? Glider? Avionics? Communication systems? Chassis? Everything, nothing else is left.
                      The entire Cessna Skyhawk costs less than $ 300.
                      The fact that Bayraktar is assembled from ready-made elements reduces the price, not increases it.
                      A price of more than $ 3 million simply has nowhere to come from. If we estimate this, the cost price above 1,5 million should not go over.
                      External prices are formed according to completely different principles.
                    6. Cyril G ...
                      Cyril G ... 16 November 2020 19: 46
                      -1
                      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                      External prices are formed according to completely different principles.


                      To what extent Bayraktar is import substituted is an interesting question. And the import of components is very expensive.

                      Optics? IR camera? Laser guidance system? Avionics? Communication systems?

                      All this is very expensive and is also purchased all over the world.
                    7. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik 16 November 2020 19: 49
                      -1
                      In the first photo, you can see its electronics, smart batteries, motor parts, sensory parts, communication parts, flight control system, INS-GPS, automatic takeoff and landing systems, etc. Where everything is Turkish.
                      3 photos, these are new bayraktars with Turkish CATS optics from Aselsan. Let me remind you that CATS Aselsan has been initially installed on ANKA-S since 2018. By the way, its visibility range, 25 km, against Wescam at 15 km.
                      2rd photo: Turkish engine for small and medium-sized UAVs called PD-170. Already new Anki from 2019 fly, on Turkish engines.


                    8. Cyril G ...
                      Cyril G ... 16 November 2020 19: 59
                      -1
                      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                      then the new bayraktars with Turkish CATS optics from Aselsan.


                      You can say anything .. And the geography of supplies to the Turks is well known.
                    9. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik 16 November 2020 20: 18
                      0
                      For what he bought, for what he sold. Turkey has made a huge leap forward in technology in recent years.
                      Seven Turkish companies entered the top 100 military high-tech companies in the world. DefenseNews has published a list for 2020.

                      Five Turkish companies entered the TOP-100 last year, now there are seven

                      Aselsan moved up from 52nd to 48th; TAI from 69th position to 53rd position; BMC - 89th place (lost 4 positions); Roketsan - 91st place (lost 2 positions); STM - dropped to 92nd place from 85th; FNSS and Havelsan are two new Turkish companies recently ranked (98 and 99)

                      The rating includes two Russian companies: Almaz-Antey (dropped from 15th to 17th place) and Tactical Missile Weapons JSC (from 32nd to 35th place)
                    10. Cyril G ...
                      Cyril G ... 16 November 2020 21: 01
                      -1
                      top 100 military high-tech companies in the world. DefenseNews has published a list for 2020.

                      Well, such is the price of these ratings - a copper half on a market day
              2. OgnennyiKotik
                OgnennyiKotik 16 November 2020 20: 30
                0
                Quote: Cyril G ...
                All this is very expensive and is also purchased all over the world.

                Building a product from off-the-shelf components is less expensive than building from scratch. Everything that is used on Bayraktar TB2 is mass serial products. The most expensive is the optoelectronic system
                wescam mx-15d 400 ~ 500 $
                ROTAX 914 engine $ 30
                Glider, avionics let it be worth $ 300
                Remote control system, weapon control, which did not take into account $ 500
                Total equipment $ 1
                Assembly, installation, logistics will bring up to 1,5 million finished products
                Taxes, cheat will bring up to 2 million dollars
                Anything higher than profit and money for new developments. I counted along the upper edge, with large upward tolerances.
          2. OgnennyiKotik
            OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 23: 49
            -2
            Quote: Cyril G ...
            Wing Long is noticeably simpler, worse, cheaper and made from the same Ketai materials.

            Seriously?
            The device with a takeoff weight of 1100 kg is equipped with a 100 hp piston engine. and is capable of carrying a payload weighing up to 200 kg. Wingspan - 14 m, length - 9,05 m. Maximum speed - 280 km / h, patrol speed 150-180 km / h. The service ceiling is 5 meters. The Pterodactyl's armament, depending on the client's preferences, may include various guided aviation ammunition weighing up to 000 kg.
          3. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 23: 54
            0
            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            Seriously?

            - And what do you think? I don't believe in fairy tales.
            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            The fact that Bayraktar is assembled from ready-made elements reduces the price, not increases it.

            The fact that Bayraktar is assembled from ready-made imported elements will only increase the price ...
  • OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 22: 26
    0
    Quote: Cyril G ...
    Predator 10 years ago

    Predators of different years have different electronics, many changes to the airframe, avionics, mechanics, etc. A whole generation has changed under the same name. The first machines were remotely controlled, the last ones were command controlled, the most extreme modifications can already work autonomously, with confirmation from the operator. Therefore, their number is decreasing, one MQ-1C replaces three RQ / MQ-1 first issues. The price has changed for a reason.
  • Runway
    Runway 14 November 2020 16: 33
    0
    Excuse me, are you addressing this to me?
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 16: 38
      0
      If you are to me, then I wrote to the Fiery Cat
  • OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 14 November 2020 16: 36
    0
    Quote: Cyril G ...
    The lessons of the war for the NKAO are still more relevant for the local wars of the Third World countries between approximately comparable opponents ...

    Yes, between the opponents of 2/3 of the world and between a developed army and semi-partisan forces. For Russia Afghanistan, Chechnya, LDNR, Syria, etc.
    In Karabakh, the Turkish-Azerbaijani coalition was helped by the experience of Turkey in the wars against the Kurds, the theater of operations is similar. And the experience in Idlib with Libya was not in vain, although they are only partially similar.
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 16 November 2020 15: 54
    0
    Quote: Cyril G ...
    Well, determine the place of a male class UAV such as Bayrakta in a front-line operation in opposition to 150 MRD somewhere in the steppes. Despite the fact that the combat formations of the MSD are covered, for example, 53 ZrBr and 14 and 31 IAP.


    Subject to equal opportunities, + UAVs and kamikaze drones from one of the parties.
    IAP is neutralized by long-range air defense (C300, C400 Iron Dome, etc.), since current fighters are far from stealthy and will be pinned to the ground and will be at risk of being attacked by MANPADS.
    The UAV detection limit is 5-7 km. The IAP will not be able to attack them without risking loss of non-stealth fighters. At best, the IAP will be forced to operate in the operational rear of its group - to cover the logistics routes.
    Whereas kamikaze drones are found at 1500-2500 m.
    The division along the front occupies 25-30 km, 10 km deep - the question is: with what air defense squad can you cover the division's deployment area?
    Military air defense systems will be exposed from a distance of 5000-7000 m - before they can detect a kamikaze drone or reconnaissance UAV. So that it would be impossible to inflict fire damage on them with artillery and MLRS, they will have to be removed from the advanced formations, then all equipment in the advanced formations is amazed by kamikaze drones and drone UAVs.
    Fighter aircraft are ineffective against kamikaze drones
  • The comment was deleted.
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  • max702
    max702 15 November 2020 21: 52
    +2
    So the fantasy of Robert Sheckley from the story "Guardian Bird" has come true .. Now, regarding the lessons for Russia, for some reason everyone looks at Russia as a country on the defensive and with a very limited range of forces and means .. As you know, the decision to start a war is made only several people, but often one two .. In relation to Russia, these one two people should always understand that the response will come to them .. The author mentioned Poland, which is bombing the UAV Kaliningrad .. As you know, the best air defense is tanks on the enemy's airfield in this In case, the best air defense is vitrified Warsaw glowing in the dark .. And if they know about it, then we will not see any UAVs, not only in Kaliningrad, but generally in the zone of interests of Russia ... The technical issue of countering UAVs at the current technical level is not a solution has .. Alas .. Everything that can be opposed by orders of magnitude more expensive than the destroyed target, therefore the sword will surely win the shield .. But on condition that they do not hit on the head which is This sword rules .. REB, shrapnel, air defense nails and so on will not save .. Could a laser, but again, the revision of the UAV and the laser in those capacities that are adequately possible today will become useless .. A fighter drone is perhaps an option, but again the price .. Obviously dust was blown off projects of active protection for armored vehicles, because this is the only thing that is less developed and can give a result, but I repeat all this will be very, very expensive .. Ultimately, the degree of conflicts will clearly increase and humanism will sharply decline, they will be destroyed having a reserve of spitting on the peaceful population and other losses, serious players cannot allow serious losses because reputation and money .. This is not wretched Armenia to which no one cares .. The fact that our generals loved this topic does not cause surprise. Troy, or even earlier .. And being at the forefront of this type of weapon was prevented by the mess of the saints of the 90s and the collapse of industry from there .. Other concerns were ..
  • parusnik
    parusnik 14 November 2020 15: 10
    +6
    Will the Russian leadership take into account the lessons of Karabakh?
    .... Will take into account ... half ...
    1. ximkim
      ximkim 14 November 2020 15: 52
      13
      Judging by the fact that how many articles have already been published about lessons, it turns out that the Russian leadership does not take them into account and ignores them.
      1. Hypertension
        Hypertension 14 November 2020 16: 45
        13
        Quote: ximkim
        Judging by the fact that how many articles have already been published about lessons, it turns out that the Russian leadership does not take them into account and ignores them.

        It constantly skips these lessons, and to the parents (people) another diary shows where all the fives are.
        As if on the "exam" then not fall asleep ...
      2. Grandfather
        Grandfather 14 November 2020 16: 54
        +1
        watched as officers in Azerbaijani uniforms (several dozen), almost in formation every morning at 7:45, went to classes at the Tambov Academy of Radio Communication. Every day, in the rain, do not care. Very organized, just like the Germans. Compared to our gouges - heaven and earth.
        my father studied in Yelabuga with the Chinese, in the 66-68th approximately, so they are even cooler ... they crammed all the notebooks by heart, almost hungry, while our comrade officers ran dances with the girls. The Chinas said: Comrade Mao, ordered to study with excellent marks. in how. and apparently it worked.
        1. Sergej1972
          Sergej1972 14 November 2020 20: 22
          +5
          In 1966-1968, the Chinese were no longer able to study in our military schools.
          1. tihonmarine
            tihonmarine 14 November 2020 20: 43
            0
            Quote: Sergej1972
            In 1966-1968, the Chinese were no longer able to study in our military schools.

            In 1966 (I know from Peter), only students of civilian universities studied, I remember how they stomped with quotation books from the Pediatric to the hostel, and in 1967 they were gone. It seems everyone was removed for the 50th anniversary of the October Revolution.
        2. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 21: 37
          0
          In 1990, 2 Azerbaijanis were admitted as national cadres, one was kicked out six months later, the second completed his second year and did not pass the 4th session - he immediately went home and went to fight for Karabakh, becoming immediately a lieutenant.
          1. Rubina
            Rubina 15 November 2020 11: 08
            +2
            I believe that is why we lost the first Karabakh war. The quote proves that we have taken into account the mistakes and wiser; that's why they won the second war.
    2. antivirus
      antivirus 14 November 2020 18: 49
      0
      hand-in will take into account 100%.
      .... however, in the direction of "luring partners into joint projects" - allegedly bankers will forbid the Western military "to cut the Russian golden chicken that lays the golden eggs."

      here we agreed to "urgently need to modernize the land route" - AGAIN FLIGHT WITH AIRCRAFT CARRIERS. for 10-15 years.
      The United States has av-ts, as the zero-first line of defense off its coast, we must have - dry put + VKS
      fleets are isolated from each other ... and different armies in the ends of the country - also 2-3 weeks of deployment.
      NEEDED BEFORE MODERN ROADS + LOGISTICS MO. ----- THIS IS ---- TO THE BORDERS, AND WE WILL ONLY BUILD BETWEEN MAJOR ECONOMIC CENTERS.
      distances are always against Russia ... and against the "partners with the sword" who have come to us
    3. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 14 November 2020 22: 03
      +1
      parusnik
      .... "Will take into account ... half"
      As always and as usual.)))
  • Megatron
    Megatron 14 November 2020 15: 12
    18
    I see that the experience with the downed plane and killed by our pilots and paratroopers was repeated now with a helicopter. As always, only puffing out his cheeks in response. Azerbaijan, too, will not get off with tomatoes, and will also receive a bunch of preferences. It hurts to watch how each dog wipes its feet on our country, shooting the military with impunity. What a shame!
    1. parusnik
      parusnik 14 November 2020 15: 52
      +5
      Azerbaijan will not get off with tomatoes either
      ... Our grenades on the market have fallen in price, not much, but still, they usually get cheaper by February ... but here .. "Coincidence, I don't think so" (c)
      1. Ilya-spb
        Ilya-spb 14 November 2020 16: 38
        +4
        What system grenades fell in price?)
        1. parusnik
          parusnik 15 November 2020 07: 42
          +2
          Azerbaijani, no others ... Tomatoes, our own ... smile
    2. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 16: 23
      14
      And that is why, by the beginning of this year, the Russian ground forces purchased at least 2300 drones of the Orlan, Eleron, Zastava and Outpost type imprisoned for reconnaissance and information gathering and issuing control commands for art and missilemen. And that is why a drone squadron is deployed at each MRBR.
  • Andrei Nikolaevich
    Andrei Nikolaevich 14 November 2020 15: 13
    +2
    Armen Dzhigarkhanyan died. This is really a pity. Great actor. Man-era. And let the citizens of Armenia and Azerbaijan deal with NK themselves. Henceforth, they will be smarter. Let's see how events will develop further. No matter how our guys have to take the rap, for everyone. God forbid, of course.
    1. iouris
      iouris 14 November 2020 15: 21
      10
      And what does Dzhigarkhanyan have to do with it?
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 14 November 2020 15: 59
        +5
        Quote: iouris
        And what does Dzhigarkhanyan have to do with it?

        So he died, from the fact that he could not survive the shame for his historical homeland - I think this was the reason for his death.
        1. Machito
          Machito 14 November 2020 16: 56
          +2
          Quote: ccsr
          Quote: iouris
          And what does Dzhigarkhanyan have to do with it?

          So he died, from the fact that he could not survive the shame for his historical homeland - I think this was the reason for his death.

          Pashinyan killed Dzhigarkhanyan.
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 14 November 2020 20: 46
      +1
      Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
      And let the citizens of Armenia and Azerbaijan deal with NK themselves.

      They are just little pawns in the big Anglo-Saxon game in which Turkey plays the role of a battering ram.
  • iouris
    iouris 14 November 2020 15: 19
    13
    Lessons for Russia are an oxymoron. The last one to learn the lesson was Stalin, but his party condemned him.
    It can be concluded that a new promising model of the transit of power and the transition to a new geopolitical reality through "force majeure" (a heavy military defeat of the state (defeat), organized by this power itself) has been demonstrated.
    This is already interesting.
    1. Machito
      Machito 14 November 2020 16: 57
      +2
      This already happened after the RYAV and WWI. The author just writes that the current situation is similar to those times.
  • Cottager452
    Cottager452 14 November 2020 15: 21
    +7
    Small countries, even wealthy ones, cannot afford to have a modern effective army, so they join political-military blocs like Cyprus or find a powerful sponsor like Israel.
    1. max702
      max702 15 November 2020 21: 57
      0
      Quote: Summer Resident452
      Small countries, even wealthy ones, cannot afford to have a modern effective army, so they join political-military blocs like Cyprus or find a powerful sponsor like Israel.

      Israel is not a sponsor's kept woman, but the leading and guiding role of the entire bourgeois world .. The top of the golden billion ..
  • Dart2027
    Dart2027 14 November 2020 15: 37
    +5
    Today Armenia is the only operator of the Iskander-E hypersonic strike missile system

    Is it hypersonic?
  • rocket757
    rocket757 14 November 2020 15: 41
    +7
    There are too many questions to the country's leadership, but it is necessary to correctly assess the realities.
    If he rushed to do everything straight, everything and a lot, those who write that we do not have enough will also begin to convey that we do not need guns instead of oil.
    We really lack a lot, but not only in the military sphere, in the civil one too !!!
    To take and concentrate resources only on the fulfillment of a military task means to expose everything else ...
    To offer, to pinch the rich, for the sake of power, harmonious development of the country .... I will not even offer this. Not under this ruling SYSTEM, and there will be much more screeching!
    The question is what to do ???
    1. cniza
      cniza 14 November 2020 17: 26
      +5
      Quote: rocket757

      The question is what to do ???


      We have an eternal question, and each generation answers it, and wages its own wars, it doesn't work out differently with us ...
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 14 November 2020 18: 38
        +3
        It's tiring even after a generation, two, to resolve the issue ... so you just want to live in peace, for your own pleasure ...
        1. cniza
          cniza 14 November 2020 18: 45
          +5
          Of course, it's tiring, we live more with the soul and only then remember the mind ...
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 14 November 2020 18: 49
            +2
            We are running somewhere, we are worried about someone, etc., etc.
            1. cniza
              cniza 14 November 2020 19: 35
              +3
              And we have always been and probably will be, we cannot live peacefully when someone is bad ...
              1. rocket757
                rocket757 15 November 2020 09: 31
                +2
                We were completely different for many years! And now, many are becoming the same as they are .... and this is not at all happy for those who remember who we were.
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 14 November 2020 20: 49
      +1
      Quote: rocket757
      The question is what to do ???

      THINK ABOUT THE COUNTRY, not the pockets of the oligarchs.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 15 November 2020 09: 25
        +1
        Agree to 101%!
        Therefore, I ask, but do not offer any simple recipes, how and what to fix ..... the gag is fundamental and how to push it through, there are no simple solutions.
    3. nobody75
      nobody75 14 November 2020 21: 11
      +1
      Too many questions to the country's leadership

      Excuse me, but you have no questions to the Author?
      Personally, I haven't read such heresy for a long time ...
      Sincerely
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 15 November 2020 09: 26
        +1
        There are questions, only this author is useless to ask them .... in my opinion.
  • Horon
    Horon 14 November 2020 15: 43
    +5
    What will the author launch hypersonic ammunition from the destroyed command center for drones? What will he launch from warehouses turned to ruins using cruise missiles or the same short-range ballistic missiles? What will he fly there and where if the sky is controlled by the air defense and manned aircraft of the enemy? Where will the UAVs fly and how will the tasks of the UAVs be effectively carried out if they operate in conditions of suppression of communication channels, orientation and optical suppression of the systems of these same UAVs? This is a tool, but it is far from a panacea in a war with an equal enemy, and even more so technically superior!
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 14 November 2020 17: 23
      +3
      Well, if a real war begins, it will begin with the destruction of the space constellation of satellites, after the GPS and Glonass are extinguished, many technological types of weapons will cease to be relevant, including UAVs.
      1. Horon
        Horon 14 November 2020 18: 00
        +1
        If the world's heavyweights come out on the rails of war, then it may be so. UAV is a means of special operations and as an additional element of reconnaissance and surveillance. It is much cheaper to use them for those purposes where the use of manned aircraft would be expensive and ineffective due to the small number of targets, their dispersion, the long time required to complete the operation and the low requirements for aircraft speeds. Why send an expensive full-fledged bomber, which will have to hang around for a long time over the area of ​​the operation and drop one 50 kilogram ammunition on the target, if there is another means that cheaply and angrily will do the same, less noticeable to the enemy, moreover! And when the enemy has aviation, air defense, uses camouflage, electronic warfare and electronic warfare, he himself has a multi-level and branched out reconnaissance, has the means capable of hitting any objects to the full depth regardless of opposition and having a sufficiently large supply of these means, then the effectiveness of the mass use of UAVs sharply drops , and they themselves become an element like the DRG. I have not heard that it would be possible to win a war with an equal opponent purely at the expense of the DRG. Although they can spoil the blood a lot, if given the opportunity!
      2. Vadim237
        Vadim237 14 November 2020 20: 40
        -1
        This has already been taken care of in the form of electronic terrain maps of IR and TV cameras plus radar and laser guidance - they can do without GPS.
        1. nobody75
          nobody75 14 November 2020 21: 07
          +1
          This has already been taken care of in the form of electronic maps of the area of ​​IR and TV cameras plus radar

          You have already told me about 2 - 3 satellites for satellite navigation ... Now let's talk about "electronic cards". How many of them are there in the deck 36? 52? Don't you think that they will be slightly different for IR and radar? I am silent about the visible range ... Especially in winter and summer ...
          Have you, excuse me, engaged in higher geodesy at the call of your heart or on the instructions of the editorial board?
          Sincerely
      3. nobody75
        nobody75 14 November 2020 21: 09
        +1
        Well, if a real war begins, it will begin with the destruction of the space constellation of satellites, after the GPS and Glonass are extinguished, many technological types of weapons will cease to be relevant, including UAVs.

        You look at the parameters of the orbit of the navigation satellites ... calculate the linear speeds ...
        Sincerely
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 14 November 2020 22: 47
          -1
          I will not share here with you the methods of destroying satellites, this is a military secret.
          1. nobody75
            nobody75 14 November 2020 22: 52
            +1
            For whom? Do you want me to share with you?
            Sincerely
      4. Reiter
        Reiter 15 November 2020 15: 51
        +2
        Yes, and there are no other wars except the third world? Over the past 12 years, let's take from 2008. How many wars have already happened and not a single GPS satellite has been shot down, and drones have already mowed a bunch of people and equipment and scouted terabytes of intelligence during this time. Local wars are won without knocking down a space group. And can Russia, with its electronic warfare and hypersound, be in time everywhere. For example, they will attack Venezuela tomorrow. What's next? Minus ally, another defeat? Or will the Natsiks with British support be trampled in Donbas and Moscow will be charged with Caliber at once across Kiev and at the UAV control points? The militia will have a sufficient number of Torah and Krasukha when they, like Armenians, will be shot from a distance of 8-10 km of Bayraktary?
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 16 November 2020 12: 16
          +2
          Quote: Reiter
          Yes, and there are no other wars except the third world?

          For us, no. That is why we must prepare for it, and not prepare for actions to disperse the "courtyard punks", as it was now in the Caucasus.

          Quote: Reiter
          How many wars have already happened and not a single GPS satellite has been shot down,

          You will not be able to shoot them down by 20 thousand km - it is very expensive, and there are a lot of them in orbit. But we knew how to interfere with their work on a certain territory back in the days of the USSR.
          Quote: Reiter
          and drones have already mowed a bunch of people and equipment and scouted terabytes of intelligence during this time.

          Comparison is inappropriate, even if only with losses in the Korean, Algerian or Vietnamese wars. If you believe the American and Armenian information, then in the twin towers more died in a couple of hours than the Armenians lost in Karabakh.
          Quote: Reiter
          And can Russia, with its electronic warfare and hypersound, be everywhere in time?

          Why do we need to keep up everywhere - can you explain? Do you want to occupy the US niche? Aren't you afraid to stay without pants?
          Quote: Reiter
          ... For example, they will attack Venezuela tomorrow. What's next?

          And to hell with her, with Venezuela - there, and without an attack, a coup d'etat will be carried out and sent us far and for a long time.
          Quote: Reiter
          Or will the Natsiks with British support be trampled in Donbas and Moscow will be charged with Caliber at once across Kiev and at the UAV control points?

          No, they will strike at the advancing Ukrainian troops, and Kiev knows this. That is why they still cannot do anything with Donbass, because they know perfectly well how it will end for them.
          Quote: Reiter
          The militia will have a sufficient number of Torah and Krasukha, when they, like Armenians, will be shot from a distance of 8-10 km of Bayraktary?

          Well, do not humiliate our army by placing it on the same level with the Armenian and Azerbaijani - it is simply indecent and smacks of primitivism in assessments. Even in the Georgian events, when there was a big mess in the armed forces, the conflict ended quickly - does that tell you anything?
          1. Reiter
            Reiter 17 November 2020 15: 32
            +1
            Quote: ccsr
            Quote: Reiter
            Yes, and there are no other wars except the third world?

            For us, no. That is why we must prepare for it, and not prepare for actions to disperse the "courtyard punks", as it was now in the Caucasus.


            The victory of the West in the Cold War proved that it is possible to do without a third world war in your understanding. Did nuclear weapons help the USSR then? The frog is cooked slowly, piece by piece, pinching off the zones of influence and allies until they are completely isolated and made outcasts, such as S. Korea. To sit out with the domestic market of 145 million people. it will not work, loss in all branches of the economy and science, scattering of people around the world, if they do not build fences. They will pump from the inside like Khabarovsk and Belarus, and neither Poseidon nor hypersound will be needed. Throw away your hats a la Rogozin's trampolines, so you can really fall in love with everything and stay only with a nuclear bomb and then not for long.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 17 November 2020 18: 50
              -2
              Quote: Reiter
              Did nuclear weapons help the USSR then?

              It still helps, otherwise we would have been pulverized long ago. Or we would have to lick American ass like most of the former Soviet republics do, which is contrary to my beliefs.
              Quote: Reiter
              To sit out with the domestic market of 145 million people. will not work,

              And we are not going to sit back - you poorly understood the meaning of Putin's words that we will find ourselves in paradise, and they will die. So do not worry too much - they have never forgotten about us, which means they will not let us sit out, and we know about it.
              Quote: Reiter
              ... Will be pumped from the inside like Khabarovsk and Belarus

              Well, they will crush those who pump - I personally will not be indignant at this. Why did you get covered with shallow tremors ahead of time from fear? Or have you not yet chosen which side to go over to?
              Quote: Reiter
              Throw already your hats a la Rogozin trampolines,

              Yes, I kind of really look at the situation, in contrast to different all-propals, and I advise you to do this too, you will sleep more calmly.
              1. Reiter
                Reiter 17 November 2020 19: 07
                0
                It is better to overlook and prepare correctly than not to miss, but after the collapse of not only nuclear weapons, without people it is just a dead tool, but providence that Putin was in power, and not Chubais or Nemtsov. Then they would have already given nuclear weapons. In principle, lucky with the self-confidence of the West, they thought we were all. It would be just like the neighbors, and after all, this was going even under Putin. Besides the classics, there is also a hybrid war, we play it badly, and if you think that everyone like you will steadfastly believe in the country, patriotism to the end, then I'm not sure of today's youth. For a conditional iPhone and Parmesan they will sell, at best, they just fade the foreign trade.
              2. Reiter
                Reiter 17 November 2020 19: 10
                -1
                Are you really looking? You look outdated, with such views in the last war only fight, the world is changing, and you are not. With such views, the country certainly does not shine in a new confrontation with the West. Your "run over" has already passed.
          2. Reiter
            Reiter 17 November 2020 15: 52
            -1
            Quote: ccsr

            Quote: Reiter
            Or will the Natsiks with British support be trampled in Donbas and Moscow will be charged with Caliber at once across Kiev and at the UAV control points?

            No, they will strike at the advancing Ukrainian troops, and Kiev knows this. That is why they still cannot do anything with Donbass, because they know perfectly well how it will end for them.
            Quote: Reiter
            The militia will have a sufficient number of Torah and Krasukha, when they, like Armenians, will be shot from a distance of 8-10 km of Bayraktary?

            Well, do not humiliate our army by placing it on the same level with the Armenian and Azerbaijani - it is simply indecent and smacks of primitivism in assessments. Even in the Georgian events, when there was a big mess in the armed forces, the conflict ended quickly - does that tell you anything?
            Do you believe Lavrov? I don’t believe that the Russian Federation will immediately fit in for Donbass, so far the opposite has been proven, past gestures were not systemic and before the sanction and it’s not a fact that now they will not jeopardize the completion of Nord Stream-2. Most likely, the Russian Federation will pull the rubber and help to a minimum, the Ukrainians are probably building their hopes on this, while they are afraid, but they are preparing and calculating the possible reaction of the Kremlin, then they will most likely try to bite, listen to formidable concerns and ... Remember, Azrebaidzhan did not immediately attack either, there were rehearsals a year ago and earlier. If Biden comes to power, what is preventing NATO troops from being sent to Ukraine and putting ukrovoyak behind? RF will shoot at NATO?
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 17 November 2020 18: 59
              -2
              Quote: Reiter
              I don’t believe that the Russian Federation will immediately fit into Donbass right away,

              Well, don't believe in health - I don't care, as well as those who really look at the situation with Donbass. By the way, Transnistria still exists normally and does not whine that Russia has abandoned it.
              Quote: Reiter
              ... If Biden comes to power, what is preventing NATO troops from being sent to Ukraine and putting ukrovoyak behind?

              Well, at least the fact that the conduct of hostilities in Ukraine will already force NATO to not send troops. You probably do not understand well the mentality of the Western public, that is why you draw conclusions without thinking that the Baltic is closer to Moscow than from Donetsk, and there NATO bases have long been deployed.
              Quote: Reiter
              RF will shoot at NATO?

              No, most likely Kiev will receive a preemptive strike with non-nuclear weapons, just like other NATO countries, but with nuclear warheads.
              1. Reiter
                Reiter 17 November 2020 20: 46
                -1
                We will stay, each with his own opinion, I hope everything will be fine in the end and we will win, or at least not lose. As for a preemptive strike, like Stanislavsky's “I don’t believe,” Russia has not shown itself decisively where there are no legal backing. Russia, like Armenia, its Artsakh, did not recognize the disputed territory, moreover, all statements grew. of persons still say that Donbass is Ukraine. Citizens with passports, but this is only from insurance that Russia will accept from itself. So until she makes sharp movements, until the edge comes at all, they think so there too, this is evident in all the sluggish actions of the Russian Federation. And many things happened after 2015.
  • Peter rybak
    Peter rybak 14 November 2020 15: 53
    -1
    Let's imagine for a moment that there is no connection. For various reasons: suppression, weather conditions, something stupidly died on the telephone exchange)) How then?
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 14 November 2020 16: 08
      +4
      in the absence of new inputs and orders, the units will continue to carry out the tasks assigned before. the commanders of these subdivisions are looking for an opportunity to establish this connection. down to messengers on horseback if need be.
      1. paul3390
        paul3390 14 November 2020 16: 20
        +3
        I've always thought the other way around ... Higher-ranking commanders should establish communication. Not the battalion commander to run to look for how to contact the regiment commander, but that with him. Simply because the higher authorities have much more opportunities for establishing communication .. More special communications units, equipment, etc. ..
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 14 November 2020 16: 26
          0
          constantly know the tactical situation and the situation for communications, the organization of command, the place of deployment and the direction of movement of the launcher of its own and higher headquarters, the KNP of subordinate and interacting units;
          make a decision on the organization of communication in a timely manner, draw it up on the card;
          timely assign tasks to the commanders of communications departments for training communications forces and means:
          to constantly know the availability and condition of communications in the battalion;
          manage the deployment and operation of the communication system; organization of its protection from means of reconnaissance of destruction and electronic suppression of the enemy;
          know the state of communication in subordinate units and provide them with the necessary assistance; study and generalize the experience of organizing and providing communication and bring it to the subordinates;
          know the loss of personnel, communications and automation and take measures to replenish them;
          maintain a working map.
          making a decision in accordance with the information received and the current situation;
          organization of actions blue-stained in accordance with the decision;
          coordination and control of the actions of performers in the course of performing the tasks received. here is a small list of responsibilities of the initial communication of SMEs
      2. antivirus
        antivirus 14 November 2020 18: 58
        0
        per horse to teach - is it a category "F" or "L"? .................................... .................................................. .................................................. ...................
    2. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 14 November 2020 17: 16
      +4
      Quote: Peter Rybak
      something died telephone exchange)) As then?

      SWITCH TO RADIO RELAY CHANNEL, COMMUNICATOR, PANCAKE! laughing
      1. Peter rybak
        Peter rybak 14 November 2020 17: 43
        +1
        Quote: BoA KAA
        Quote: Peter Rybak
        something died telephone exchange)) As then?

        SWITCH TO RADIO RELAY CHANNEL, COMMUNICATOR, PANCAKE! laughing

        laughing I actually meant the launched UAVs and communication with the operator. laughing
        1. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 14 November 2020 17: 49
          0
          Quote: Peter Rybak
          I actually meant the launched UAVs and communication with the operator.

          Peter, stop making the audience laugh!
          These are just torpedoes, well, some ATGMs (Comrade Malyutka) are controlled by wires. And the UAVs are firmly seated on the "electromagnetic / quantum" soldering, even controlled through a spacecraft or a laser. Therefore, the "wires" do not dance here. Absolutely. yes
          1. Peter rybak
            Peter rybak 14 November 2020 18: 14
            +3
            Quote: BoA KAA
            Quote: Peter Rybak
            I actually meant the launched UAVs and communication with the operator.

            Peter, stop making the audience laugh!
            These are just torpedoes, well, some ATGMs (Comrade Malyutka) are controlled by wires. And the UAVs are firmly seated on the "electromagnetic / quantum" soldering, even controlled through a spacecraft or a laser. Therefore, the "wires" do not dance here. Absolutely. yes

            Do you intentionally want to understand simple things?
            The main task is to ensure radio visibility between the UAV and the operator. The transmission of information over a long distance is possible using repeaters or satellite communication systems. It is clear that at minimum distances the UAVs are controlled through the spacecraft.
            Bayraktar TB2 are equipped only with a radio control system, which limits the range of the UAV to a radio horizon (in fact, no more than 150 km). If another UAV is used as a repeater, then the distance can be increased to 300 km. But it's all the same RADIO COMMUNICATION.
            So, damn it, the question was, if these repeaters or satellites turn out to be inoperative, there will be no radio communication. There was a hint that wars will be fought in the way they have been fought over the last century - with pistols, machine guns, cannons and other crap.
            Perhaps I should have deciphered my joke from the beginning.
          2. nobody75
            nobody75 14 November 2020 21: 00
            +1
            And the UAVs are firmly seated on the "electromagnetic / quantum" soldering, even controlled through a spacecraft or a laser

            What does quantization have to do with it ?! Are you talking about a laser?
            Sincerely
          3. Peter rybak
            Peter rybak 15 November 2020 08: 49
            0
            Quote: BoA KAA
            Quote: Peter Rybak
            I actually meant the launched UAVs and communication with the operator.

            Peter, stop making the audience laugh!
            These are just torpedoes, well, some ATGMs (Comrade Malyutka) are controlled by wires. And the UAVs are firmly seated on the "electromagnetic / quantum" soldering, even controlled through a spacecraft or a laser. Therefore, the "wires" do not dance here. Absolutely. yes

            A boa constrictor, you wanted to teach a little from above, but you did not succeed. So answer the questions you were asked. What does quantization have to do with it? What is the principle of communication between the operator and the UAV? If you are not in the subject, you can not answer.
            1. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 15 November 2020 13: 41
              0
              Quote: Peter Rybak
              You wanted to teach a little downward ...

              Lord! How many times did I swear not to mess with amateurs ... It was just a replica. Sorry, I could not restrain myself ...
              Quote: Peter Rybak
              but you failed.
              And don't even hope!
              Quote: Peter Rybak
              What does quantization have to do with it?
              Heavy UAVs (via the spacecraft) are planned to be controlled in this way ... There is no interference, the REP is powerless in this case.
              Quote: Peter Rybak
              What is the principle of communication between the operator and the UAV?
              Either directly via the ZAS-line, or through a repeater ... Moreover, the control can be from the VKP, or from the aircraft navigator-operator. If possible, look at the material on the "Thunder" TBPA.
              And the last. If you are interested in something outside the scope of the article, write to the brow in a personal, so as not to clog the site with your "messages" on the topic.
              Sincerely.
              1. Peter rybak
                Peter rybak 15 November 2020 19: 45
                +1
                Quote: BoA KAA
                Quote: Peter Rybak
                You wanted to teach a little downward ...

                Lord! How many times did I swear not to mess with amateurs ... It was just a replica. Sorry, I could not restrain myself ...
                Quote: Peter Rybak
                but you failed.
                And don't even hope!
                Quote: Peter Rybak
                What does quantization have to do with it?
                Heavy UAVs (via the spacecraft) are planned to be controlled in this way ... There is no interference, the REP is powerless in this case.
                Quote: Peter Rybak
                What is the principle of communication between the operator and the UAV?
                Either directly via the ZAS-line, or through a repeater ... Moreover, the control can be from the VKP, or from the aircraft navigator-operator. If possible, look at the material on the "Thunder" TBPA.
                And the last. If you are interested in something outside the scope of the article, write to the brow in a personal, so as not to clog the site with your "messages" on the topic.
                Sincerely.

                So what did I write about? Not about the same? You haven't even read it.
                Come on. I'll ask someone simpler if something interests me.
                Best regards
        2. t-12
          t-12 14 November 2020 18: 14
          0
          UAVs will soon be autonomous, with neural networks that detect "aliens" and throw bombs at them. No operators, no radio traffic. And the UAVs will return to the base using the inertial navigation system (+ by the magnetic field, like birds).
          1. Peter rybak
            Peter rybak 14 November 2020 18: 17
            0
            Quote: t-12
            UAVs will soon be autonomous, with neural networks that detect "aliens" and throw bombs at them. No operators, no radio traffic. And the UAVs will return to the base using the inertial navigation system (+ by the magnetic field, like birds).

            It will be soon. But now there is nowhere without radio exchange.
            1. t-12
              t-12 14 November 2020 18: 23
              0
              Now the problem is more or less being solved by the PPRCH.
              1. Peter rybak
                Peter rybak 14 November 2020 19: 51
                0
                Quote: t-12
                Now the problem is more or less being solved by the PPRCH.

                And our "Orlan-10" in general move due to the GSM network.
          2. ccsr
            ccsr 15 November 2020 12: 20
            +1
            Quote: t-12
            UAVs will soon be autonomous, with neural networks that detect "aliens" and throw bombs at them. No operators, no radio traffic.

            How about false targets or errors in AI, when they suddenly start attacking their positions?
            1. t-12
              t-12 15 November 2020 12: 49
              +1
              Well, how does it happen with a live operator? It will be the same with a neural network. Mistakes are inevitable.

              In addition, computers have much more memory than humans. The computer can memorize the map by its location in a split second. There will probably also be "friend or foe" identification beacons (for armored vehicles, for infantry groups).
      2. nobody75
        nobody75 14 November 2020 21: 02
        +1
        This is how the entire mobile network works on radio relays ... Only there the point-to-point connection turns out ...
        Sincerely
  • ccsr
    ccsr 14 November 2020 15: 55
    +5
    Author:
    Maxim Klimov
    And I watched as officers in Azerbaijani uniforms (several dozen) almost in formation every morning at 7:45 went to classes at the Tambov Academy of Radio Communication.

    What is this "academy of radio communications" - educate ....
    It is not difficult to see that in many ways the Russian Navy (and not only the Russian Navy) is preparing for parades rather than for war.

    On what basis does the author make such a "profound" conclusion? And then, since when did the fleet become the basis of our security? As far as I know, the Strategic Missile Forces is the leader in our country, so there is no need to equate everything in the fleet, especially the surface fleet, which is already shrinking for objective reasons.
    At the same time, we should think hard ourselves how, for example, the air defense of the Kaliningrad region will look like during a massive strike Polish small UAVs exterminators?
    This idea was probably voiced by the head physician at a lecture in Kashchenko ...
    By the way, the author, the abbreviation UAV is generally accepted, and not UAV, although where they tell you about it, other innovations are possible, but we do not know.
    Will the Russian leadership take into account the lessons of Karabakh?

    Is this our first mission, or are we in the US planning to separate Trump and Biden supporters during the civil war? Maybe enough to fantasize, Klimov? Better study the experience of sending troops into Czechoslovakia - that's really what you need to learn from.
    1. cmax
      cmax 14 November 2020 16: 22
      -4
      Quote: ccsr
      Author:
      Maxim Klimov
      And I watched as officers in Azerbaijani uniforms (several dozen) almost in formation every morning at 7:45 went to classes at the Tambov Academy of Radio Communication.

      What is this "academy of radio communications" - educate ....
      It is not difficult to see that in many ways the Russian Navy (and not only the Russian Navy) is preparing for parades rather than for war.

      On what basis does the author make such a "profound" conclusion? And then, since when did the fleet become the basis of our security? As far as I know, the Strategic Missile Forces is the leader in our country, so there is no need to equate everything in the fleet, especially the surface fleet, which is already shrinking for objective reasons.
      At the same time, we should think hard ourselves how, for example, the air defense of the Kaliningrad region will look like during a massive strike Polish small UAVs exterminators?
      This idea was probably voiced by the head physician at a lecture in Kashchenko ...
      By the way, the author, the abbreviation UAV is generally accepted, and not UAV, although where they tell you about it, other innovations are possible, but we do not know.
      Will the Russian leadership take into account the lessons of Karabakh?

      Is this our first mission, or are we in the US planning to separate Trump and Biden supporters during the civil war? Maybe enough to fantasize, Klimov? Better study the experience of sending troops into Czechoslovakia - that's really what you need to learn from.

      Straight Uryayaya you can shout after your post. Disintegration of the foe on his land, and even with little blood, right? Any objections and common sense against the line. Dear, it is better to perebdet than ....... The man wrote everything right. As an example, everything would be OK in the army, they wouldn't knock down a helicopter in Karabakh, 2 pilots would remain alive. This is just an example about verbiage about strengthening the army. For the first few years, Shoigu was evidently trying, then how everyone in the leadership became a star. All reports began to resemble reports to the congresses of the CPSU party. The army is building churches, the money is for the Patriot Park, covid hospitals, water supply to the Crimea. Cases are necessary, but for this it is possible and necessary to attract local thieves, mayors and governors. Maybe the army would equip helicopters with protection systems, tanks, infantry fighting vehicles with active protection systems. And many, many others.
      1. carstorm 11
        carstorm 11 14 November 2020 16: 40
        -4
        yah? and what would change in a specific case with a helicopter?
        1. cmax
          cmax 14 November 2020 16: 58
          -1
          Quote: carstorm 11
          yah? and what would change in a specific case with a helicopter?

          People would have survived. What's not clear here? Imagine if you were on board. Or the order for the grave outweighs.
          1. carstorm 11
            carstorm 11 14 November 2020 17: 06
            -3
            what would save these people? defense complex that only 4 years ago began to produce? and put only on new sides? what would save them from MANPADS?
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 14 November 2020 16: 57
        +2
        Quote: cmax
        The man wrote everything right.

        For you, perhaps, but not for those who are better versed in military affairs.
        Quote: cmax
        ... As an example, everything would be OK in the army, they wouldn't knock down a helicopter in Karabakh, 2 pilots would remain alive.

        In fact, more pilots die during training in our country per year than during the war in Syria and Armenia - you just don't know about it, that's where your "suffering" comes from. A conscript recently killed two people at the airfield and one of them was a pilot - you and Klimov would have better think about this.
        Quote: cmax
        The army is building churches, the money is for the Patriot Park, covid hospitals, water supply to the Crimea.

        And what does Shoigu have to do with it if the government instructs him to do it? I personally may not like him, but I don't need to hang all the dogs on him.
        Quote: cmax
        And many, many others.

        And it poured, poured, poured ...
        1. cmax
          cmax 14 November 2020 19: 25
          +1
          Quote: ccsr
          Quote: cmax
          The man wrote everything right.

          For you, perhaps, but not for those who are better versed in military affairs.
          Quote: cmax
          ... As an example, everything would be OK in the army, they wouldn't knock down a helicopter in Karabakh, 2 pilots would remain alive.

          In fact, more pilots die during training in our country per year than during the war in Syria and Armenia - you just don't know about it, that's where your "suffering" comes from. A conscript recently killed two people at the airfield and one of them was a pilot - you and Klimov would have better think about this.
          Quote: cmax
          The army is building churches, the money is for the Patriot Park, covid hospitals, water supply to the Crimea.

          And what does Shoigu have to do with it if the government instructs him to do it? I personally may not like him, but I don't need to hang all the dogs on him.
          Quote: cmax
          And many, many others.

          And it poured, poured, poured ...

          Take an umbrella, please. Shoigu Minister of Defense or Director of LLC. In 41, too, the leadership was versed in military affairs, like you, but it turned out .... how it happened, to Moscow. Almost the entire cadre army remained either in the fields or in the camps. Mobilized and dragged that war on their shoulders. No need to pretend to be a great strategist. All of us or the majority here on the forum probably want one thing, so that Russia and its army are strong. With age, you begin to see everything more realistically, optimism in some matters does not cause former delight. Something like this.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 15 November 2020 12: 01
            +1
            Quote: cmax
            Shoigu Minister of Defense or Director of LLC.

            He is just a MEMBER of the government, not its head - at least you will study the structure of power in Russia if you do not know how our country is organized and by what laws it lives.
            Quote: cmax
            Almost the entire cadre army remained either in the fields or in the camps.

            Yes it is, but it was they who ground the best army in the world in the first year of the war, and in the spring of 1942, the German commanders admitted that the arriving reserves were not prepared for the war on the Eastern Front. Nobody denies that mistakes were made on the eve of the war, but this does not mean that we are now obliged to copy what has long been morally obsolete. Wake up - nuclear weapons and intercontinental missiles have fundamentally changed the very concept of war, and you all live from time to time the Tsar Pea.
            Quote: cmax
            All of us or the majority here on the forum probably want one thing, so that Russia and its army are strong.

            Do you even know what the strength of our army is? Maybe for yourself, first clarify what it is, so as not to buy into cheap slogans that populists throw in on this forum, like this article.
            1. cmax
              cmax 15 November 2020 14: 43
              0
              Quote: ccsr
              Do you even know what the strength of our army is? Maybe for yourself, first clarify what it is, so as not to buy into cheap slogans that populists throw in on this forum, like this article.

              In short, it's not even interesting to communicate with you. Normal .... Uryayaya, urya ... and so on. All who are not you, populists. I think these people are called realists. In a country where there is almost no electronics, machine tool building, space programs are ruined, they re-stick tags from Made in China to made in Russia, by default, they cannot overcome anyone. Unless he floods the battlefield with corpses. I learned so much from you about the structure of government. Thanks. You are really like that (by yourself you judge the level of education of other people) or are kidding.
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 15 November 2020 14: 59
                +1
                Quote: cmax
                In a country where there is almost no electronics, machine-tool building, space programs are ruined, re-sticking tags from Made in China to made in Russia, by default, cannot overcome anyone.

                Well, why can't our troops defeat us in Syria, especially since there is only a small contingent there?

                Quote: cmax
                Unless he floods the battlefield with corpses.

                Where did you see it this "battlefield" on which the corpses of Russian servicemen lie? Well, at least you can hypothetically call him, "enlightened specialist" are you ours?
                Quote: cmax
                You are really like that (judge by yourself about the level of education of other people) or are kidding.

                You don't need to make fun of people like you, for this you don't even need special knowledge, because your dimness is just so full of you.
  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 16: 03
    +3
    With the massive equipping of the enemy with shrapnel shells with an appropriate fire control system, the Eagles will simply "mow".


    With the military air defense of the enemy, to put it mildly, the situation is not ice at all. Now, in fact, no one can really defend against UAVs of small class scouts. Situation of the battle of porcelain vases armed with hammers.

    With drone UAVs, the situation is even worse.


    Impact UAV what? If it is of the Bayraktar type, then it is more of a niche counterinsurgency weapon. An attack kamikaze is needed by the Skorra to defeat important targets in the operational rear.
  • Hwostatij
    Hwostatij 14 November 2020 16: 10
    -9
    Here's another article about everything gone. Well, let's invest in aircraft carriers, fighters, armata and other wunderwales the entire stabilization fund, fnb and zvr and we will tear everyone apart in conventional war. But wait a minute ... We have nuclear weapons ... Maybe that's why no one will attack us - and it is not necessary to transfer the economy onto a war footing, but to limit ourselves to the necessary minimum?
    1. evgen1221
      evgen1221 14 November 2020 16: 47
      +3
      Yes, and there is no need for them to attack massively. In our doctrine about yao it is written about ballistic missiles in our swamp and the general integrity of the country, but where is there about the usual means? And enough NATO to squeeze out massively and quickly from the territory of Kaliningrad, it seems that the reaction in society and the leadership will be similar to that of Armenians. It’s not only Poland that attacked, but it means the whole EU in NATO, with everyone flying out across Europe, as much as possible ... Further, everything is the same as that of the Armenians. NATO can, in our current state of constant snotty and rubbing, squeeze out what they want with impunity, we can squeeze it out ourselves or return what was squeezed out without growing into the vitrification of everything else.
      1. Hwostatij
        Hwostatij 14 November 2020 16: 55
        0
        And why would NATO seize Kaliningrad while risking a global nuclear conflict? Can you give at least one adequate reason?
        1. t-12
          t-12 14 November 2020 18: 18
          +1
          To nail up the "window to Europe". Isolate industrial Europe from raw materials Russia. All these games with Ukraine and the Nord Streams are about that.
          1. Hwostatij
            Hwostatij 14 November 2020 20: 39
            -3
            It is difficult to talk with a person who studies geography on the globe of Ukraine.
      2. carstorm 11
        carstorm 11 14 November 2020 17: 17
        -1
        You probably see the letters, but you don't understand the meaning when they are added into words and sentences. at which you answer yourself in your own proposal. write about the general integrity of the country and immediately draw a utopian scenario for the capture of Kaliningrad) does not your brain explode from such a contradiction?)))
        1. evgen1221
          evgen1221 14 November 2020 17: 57
          -1
          I understand the overall integrity as it is spelled out in the document. And the hypothetical squeezing out of any accessible region-edge by a strong adversary with a stop at the reached line (Baku technically could and was able to completely take Armenia if it were not in the CSTO) does not in any way destroy the integrity of the country in general (i.e., all hostilities are locally only in one areas of the edge and further shells do not fly en masse) And what are your actions on the hypothetical scenario proposed by me? It was very interesting to hear something besides the d, and this cannot be because shta.
          1. carstorm 11
            carstorm 11 14 November 2020 19: 02
            -1
            any threat to the integrity of the state. everything is spelled out in the doctrine very clearly. if the squeezing of some part of it for you is a violation of this integrity, it is not difficult for me to explain something to you. there is only one answer to the scenarios you proposed, which is spelled out in the doctrine.
            1. evgen1221
              evgen1221 14 November 2020 19: 51
              +2
              Have you read the doctrine carefully? Integrity is read there as the existence of the entire state as a whole (as a state foundation). Now I repeat once again, in a hypothetical scenario, they only wrung out Kaliningrad by the usual means without yaoof and other omp, and they are not going to go further on this principle. The existence of the Russian Federation, in principle, the loss of one region as a country as a result of hostilities does not threaten, because it will not be allowed to fight further. What are your actions and an exemplary (well, at least some kind of please) scenario for the development of the case? How, how to squeeze it back? How will the population behave in the light of (to put it mildly) not the most thoughtful actions of this government until now?
              1. nobody75
                nobody75 14 November 2020 20: 55
                -1
                Your actions and an approximate (well, at least some kind of please) scenario for the development of the case?

                The use of TNW and chemical. weapons from land, air and sea carriers against enemy targets in the Kaliningrad region.
                Sincerely
                1. Hwostatij
                  Hwostatij 14 November 2020 21: 33
                  +4
                  I fundamentally disagree.
                  1. Chem. the RF has no weapons.
                  2. Why should we smack about weapons of mass destruction on our territory?
                  1. nobody75
                    nobody75 14 November 2020 21: 39
                    0
                    Chem. the RF has no weapons.

                    Excuse me, do you believe in it? I'm not very ...
                    I dreamed that Alexei Navalny would marry Ksenia Sobchak, ascend the throne under the name of Alexy I and become the founder of the glorious Sobchak dynasty - Navalny
                    And here is ...
                    Why should we smack about weapons of mass destruction on our territory?

                    In the opening it was said that she had already been captured
                    Sincerely
                    1. Hwostatij
                      Hwostatij 14 November 2020 21: 51
                      0
                      Excuse me, do you believe in it? I'm not very ...

                      What does faith have to do with it? This is a matter of expediency. Storing chemical weapons is expensive, and the effectiveness of their use is low.
                      I dreamed that Alexei Navalny would marry Ksenia Sobchak, ascend the throne under the name of Alexy I and become the founder of the glorious Sobchak dynasty - Navalny
                      And here is ...

                      I suspect that sarcasm, but I could not comprehend the full depth of your thought.
                      In the opening it was said that she had already been captured

                      Introductory, of course, idiotic. But even if you follow it, how long is it captured? I think that the invaders will not even spend the night.
                      1. nobody75
                        nobody75 14 November 2020 21: 56
                        -1
                        What does faith have to do with it? This is a matter of expediency. Storing chemical weapons is expensive, and the effectiveness of their use is low.

                        You see ... modern chemical weapons are binary and their storage is anyway cheaper than the full cycle of production and storage of nuclear weapons. And about Navalny ... The Queen gave a sword to chemists from Porton Down ... Why would that be?
                        With the correct use of TNW and chemical weapons, you can easily land a troop ...
                        Sincerely
                      2. evgen1221
                        evgen1221 14 November 2020 22: 07
                        +1
                        They will spend the night and will spend more than one night. We think, gentlemen, comrades. The Balts will not give the corridors of the passage in principle, the fleet? -Well, of course, they will be able to do something, and they themselves will put some amount in the region, but the problem remains, how and by what means to repulse back? and they did not attack, plus they themselves are sharpening a grudge against us, we cannot pass through them by force, because this is the EU and will already cause a large-scale war of the Russian Federation-NATO with the use of yao already for sure. So how?
                      3. Hwostatij
                        Hwostatij 14 November 2020 22: 19
                        0
                        As I understand it, you are painting pictures of your vision of parallel reality. Please add a little realism to your fantasies and stop sliding deeper into the sur with each post.
                      4. nobody75
                        nobody75 14 November 2020 22: 59
                        -2
                        The Balts' passage corridors will not give a principle

                        Firstly, who will ask them, and secondly, aviation CDs have a range of up to 5000 km. So the aircraft will fire normally. After the destruction of hostile living creatures, you can safely land the landing.
                        Sincerely
              2. evgen1221
                evgen1221 14 November 2020 21: 59
                0
                Application of which I apologize? TNW? In the scenario for us, Yao and Omp were not used, which means that there are no moral legal grounds for us to use, and if applicable, then any UN country that has any claims to us (even for theft a box of matches under the king of peas) has the right to declare full-scale war and having Yao and them, too, if desired. Nooo-yao and omp in response
                the spin area is canceled. Thinking further ... I'm waiting for an answer, a question and the discussion is really becoming very interesting. Sincerely.
                1. nobody75
                  nobody75 14 November 2020 22: 03
                  -3
                  Why is it prohibited? TNW - it is tactical ... And there is a lot of "Novice" ... Not all "substances" are included in the list of prohibited ones!
                  So here you got excited - you can apply!
                  PS
                  What is Molan?
                  Sincerely
                2. Oprichnik
                  Oprichnik 16 November 2020 15: 37
                  +1
                  Read the Doctrine of National Security of the Russian Federation. It clearly and unambiguously said about the possibility and necessity of using nuclear weapons.
            2. Hwostatij
              Hwostatij 14 November 2020 21: 07
              -2
              What are your actions and an approximate (well, at least some kind of, please) scenario for the development of the case? How, how to squeeze back?

              Pfft ... I have a problem too. After a warning in the air (from Iskander, over Warsaw) they themselves will return with an apology and indemnity. They will also give the Suwalki corridor as a supplement. Don't be bullshit, please.
              1. evgen1221
                evgen1221 14 November 2020 22: 18
                -2
                We read the introductory - a sudden attack and a quick loss of the region, if it is there neutralized (there is no deyuro in the region, according to the assurances of our authorities). Well, several Iskanders will arrive in Warsaw, so what? will great destruction cause chtoli? I brought this task to understand that we (the Russian Federation), in general, are on the same wavelength with Armenia in the issue of the sudden squeezing of some territories, we are - The processes as a result of the loss of these territories will be absolutely the same and the author in the article and from the media it can be seen described them. What can we do in a similar situation?
                1. Hwostatij
                  Hwostatij 14 November 2020 22: 28
                  0
                  Sorry, but I refuse to further discuss your fantasies, because they are drifting further and further from common sense and objective reality hi
                2. nobody75
                  nobody75 14 November 2020 23: 04
                  +2
                  We read the introductory - a surprise attack and a quick loss of the area, if it is there, it is neutralized (there is no deyuro Yao in the area, according to the assurances of our authorities).

                  In Engels, the same missiles ended?
                  Well, a few Iskander will arrive in Warsaw, so what?

                  The question is not "What?", But "With what?"
                  great destruction will cause

                  It depends on how the origin of the area suits you ...
                  Sincerely
  • 16112014nk
    16112014nk 14 November 2020 16: 31
    +3
    Lessons, lessons ... Who teaches them?
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 14 November 2020 20: 53
      +1
      They took it off the tongue! The only thing that history teaches is that no one ever learns anything! :(

      Literally every ruler needs to personally, two or three times, step and jump on a rake known since the Middle Ages .. sad
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 14 November 2020 16: 39
    +1
    These current rkkamoditeli of course will take into account, at the first clashes, they will instantly rush to the airfields to skimp, because burn it, we earn loot here, and the contract is not prescribed to die for it.
  • nobody75
    nobody75 14 November 2020 16: 46
    -4
    The fact that in Karabakh everything is moving towards the "hot option" was clear a few years ago.

    What if there were no global cowardice with a pandemic? Something I don’t remember the articles of the Dear Author about the impending war in Karabakh ...
    Today Armenia is the only operator of the Iskander-E hypersonic strike missile system (which it proudly demonstrated at parades).

    The use of "Iskander" without the letter "E" (with standard warheads) would have ended in the destruction of Azerbaijan as a state ... On the "Navalny case" hearings in the UN Security Council will be ... Maybe ... And Rink and Uglev continue to quarrel.
    Yes, Orlan-10 is a success, and even a very large one.

    Success is "ACS TZ". But we need the Sphere to bleed. I'm already tired of writing about this ...
    With the massive equipping of the enemy with shrapnel shells with an appropriate fire control system, the Eagles will simply "mow down"

    In all armies of the world, shrapnel shells have been used since the beginning of the XNUMXth century ... I hope that the author does not write articles for the sake of hype, and is familiar with what he is "reporting" about, at least in general terms.
    At the same time, we should think hard ourselves, how, for example, will the air defense of the Kaliningrad region look like during a massive strike of Polish small UAVs of destroyers?

    Are you talking about a quadrocopter (flying around) with a grenade? She will look good. A guard dog will not allow the UAV operator to reach the launch distance.
    From this article, one can draw a conclusion that is frightening for the country's defense capability. The author is a spherical humanist and knows nothing but to sow panic.
    Sincerely
    1. Sergey Sfiedu
      Sergey Sfiedu 14 November 2020 17: 08
      +5
      I suspect that the author wrote about shrapnel shells with radio fuses (because the rest is past). Considering that our only anti-aircraft guns are Shilki, Tunguska and Pantsiri, we can assume with 100% probability that there are no such shells in the troops. Yes. "Derivation-air defense" is needed.
      "Are you talking about a quadrocopter (flying around) with a grenade?" - were the Israeli-made Azerbaijani patrolling ammunition also quadrocopters with grenades?
      1. nobody75
        nobody75 14 November 2020 18: 16
        +6
        were the Israeli-made Azerbaijani patrolling ammunition also quadrocopters with grenades?

        First, they were not Azerbaijani, but Israeli. Or manufactured under license ...
        Secondly, the article dealt with the "Polish Destroyer". Please look at the map. Azerbaijan does not border on the Kaliningrad region. How will Azerbaijani DRGs get to its territory? Along with a load of tomatoes?
        The author clearly does not own the topic, as evidenced by the following passage:
        At the same time, we missed equipping the mass 30-mm cannon 2A42 for shrapnel shells.

        The fact is that the 30 mm shrapnel round was developed for the needs of the Air Force. It was part of the GSH - 30 ammunition load. The problem is that this projectile had a fixed interval for the charge, instead of a programmable bottom fuse! How does the Dear Author propose to equip the 2A42 with a shrapnel shell with remote detonation? To put a supercharged induction programmer on an obsolete weapon? Let the author know what it is! These are 3 solenoid rings, the first 2 are used to measure the speed of the projectile, and the third sets the fuse timer for the duration of the detonation. Now attention, for firing such ammunition, we need to determine the distance to the point of detonation and calculate the time of arrival of the projectile. For this, we need a ballistic computer capable of counting the approach time for anti-aircraft fire, this is firstly. Secondly, we need a tracking system capable of choosing the optimal detonation point in three coordinates at the time of the shot. We are going to shoot at a group of small-sized, low-flying and low-speed targets, right?
        And all this at a distance of less than 4000 m and an altitude of 3000 m. The data was taken for the "twin - brother" 2A42 - 2A38M, which stands on the armor and can do all of the above, except for remote detonation and shrapnel ammunition by itself. Moreover, it can automatically eliminate misfires!
        Where is the author going to attach all of the above economy? In BMP - 2?
        However, you can not answer ...
        Sincerely
        1. Sergey Sfiedu
          Sergey Sfiedu 14 November 2020 19: 30
          +1
          Azerbaijan does not border on the Kaliningrad region, but it borders on Poland. The probability of the appearance of attack UAVs and loitering BPs in Poland is not at all zero. Do you agree?
          I do not know what the respected author had in mind, but to combat UAVs, you need a 57-76mm ZSU with a radar, or an air defense system with inexpensive missiles. I agree with you that the BMP-2 is unlikely to help here, as well as 30mm artillery systems in general
          1. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 22: 05
            0
            We need a massive Pine ...
      2. nobody75
        nobody75 14 November 2020 18: 37
        0
        I suspect that the author wrote about shrapnel shells with radio fuses (because the rest is past)

        A shrapnel shell with a radio fuse in caliber 30mm ??? And how much will it cost? And how will it work when firing a burst ???
        Sincerely
        1. timokhin-aa
          14 November 2020 19: 01
          +4
          How did the Westerners do? 25 mm?

          You end up with verbiage, do not disgrace yourself already.
          1. nobody75
            nobody75 14 November 2020 19: 08
            -1
            How did the Westerners do? 25 mm?

            Precisely with a radio fuse?
            Sincerely
            1. timokhin-aa
              14 November 2020 19: 10
              +2
              With programmable undermining. Have you heard about this?
              1. nobody75
                nobody75 14 November 2020 19: 26
                +2
                Above I wrote a post about programmed detonation - why is it not advisable to use it for 2A42 ... Ah, the radio fuse is already ... that's it?
                Sincerely
                1. timokhin-aa
                  14 November 2020 19: 42
                  +2
                  The old BMP-2 turrets are being replaced with new gun modules. It was by this moment that it was necessary to have time with programmed detonation. And it was possible to create an MSA capable of such firing, as well as to develop shells.
                  This was not done, and now it is necessary to solve something with the air defense - what the Turks were doing with the Bayraktar can still be solved with the available means, but they also had UAV destroyers tested in Libya, and it is not clear what to do with this. And the rifle squad can carry them with them, just as they carry a collective weapon.

                  So, there is no alternative to programmed detonation against this scrap. Either you have such shells, and military equipment can massively use them on air targets, or proceed to the exit, your time is up.

                  And we drained this moment.

                  And as for the radio fuse - you already wrote that, you discuss them with anyone on this topic.
                  1. nobody75
                    nobody75 14 November 2020 20: 43
                    +2
                    The old BMP-2 turrets are being replaced with new gun modules. It was by this moment that it was necessary to have time with programmed detonation.

                    And the 30mm rounds to remake everything? And there is also a tracer and a high-explosive fragmentation.
                    Let me tell you a military secret ... In the 60s of the last century, adequate models of explosion physics appeared. It turned out that during the explosion of a high-explosive fragmentation projectile, up to 80% of the mass of the fragments falls on large and long fragments - the so-called "sabers". Accordingly, although the debris mass is large, there are few debris and they do not form clouds. Since then, the fashion for rockets and shells with ready-made submunitions has gone.
                    Further. You, excuse me, have seen the BMP in the picture? What is your knowledge of the BMP commander about the air situation? The hatch opens, the commander crawls out and examines the leaden skies with a sharp, stern look. How are you going to add radar and OLS to BMP - 2? Taking into account that your improvised anti-aircraft gun will not shoot further than 4000 m and above 3000 m!
                    Sincerely
                    1. ccsr
                      ccsr 15 November 2020 12: 31
                      +1
                      Quote: nobody75
                      How are you going to add radar and OLS to BMP - 2? Taking into account that your improvised anti-aircraft gun will not shoot further than 4000 m and above 3000 m!

                      You are describing everything correctly, the opponents are simply too far from the realities of such weapons and live in a virtual world built on pictures from the network and the assumptions of home-grown specialists, like Rogozin, who jumped from a journalist to the level of Korolev. What happened next is clear to everyone ...
                  2. Cyril G ...
                    Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 22: 08
                    +1
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    So, there is no alternative to programmed detonation against this scrap.

                    This is not nearly so.

                    military equipment can massively use them against air targets,

                    Without adequate SUAZO it will not be able to speak at all ...
          2. nobody75
            nobody75 14 November 2020 19: 09
            -1
            You are engaged in verbiage, even alarmism and graphomania
          3. nobody75
            nobody75 14 November 2020 19: 11
            -1
            Do you want to write anything about the shrapnel "shell" for 2A42?
            To amuse the people ...
        2. Sergey Sfiedu
          Sergey Sfiedu 14 November 2020 19: 31
          +1
          The Yankees seem to have done something, either with a radio explosive, or with a programmed detonation, but this is a perversion. You need a bigger caliber.
          1. nobody75
            nobody75 14 November 2020 20: 49
            +1
            With a programmable Yankees did ... But what is the Author ... He from the BMP-2 was going to shoot at sparrows with shrapnel (pearl barley) ...
            Sincerely
          2. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 22: 15
            0
            minimum 57, maximum 76 mm. In my opinion, for air defense SV you need something like that.




            And vice versa, no more than 20-23 mm for the defeat of small small UAVs with a new SUV, such as

    2. cmax
      cmax 14 November 2020 17: 09
      +2
      Quote: nobody75
      The fact that in Karabakh everything is moving towards the "hot option" was clear a few years ago.

      What if there were no global cowardice with a pandemic? Something I don’t remember the articles of the Dear Author about the impending war in Karabakh ...
      Today Armenia is the only operator of the Iskander-E hypersonic strike missile system (which it proudly demonstrated at parades).

      The use of "Iskander" without the letter "E" (with standard warheads) would have ended in the destruction of Azerbaijan as a state ... On the "Navalny case" hearings in the UN Security Council will be ... Maybe ... And Rink and Uglev continue to quarrel.
      Yes, Orlan-10 is a success, and even a very large one.

      Success is "ACS TZ". But we need the Sphere to bleed. I'm already tired of writing about this ...
      With the massive equipping of the enemy with shrapnel shells with an appropriate fire control system, the Eagles will simply "mow down"

      In all armies of the world, shrapnel shells have been used since the beginning of the XNUMXth century ... I hope that the author does not write articles for the sake of hype, and is familiar with what he is "reporting" about, at least in general terms.
      At the same time, we should think hard ourselves, how, for example, will the air defense of the Kaliningrad region look like during a massive strike of Polish small UAVs of destroyers?

      Are you talking about a quadrocopter (flying around) with a grenade? She will look good. A guard dog will not allow the UAV operator to reach the launch distance.
      From this article, one can draw a conclusion that is frightening for the country's defense capability. The author is a spherical humanist and knows nothing but to sow panic.
      Sincerely

      But you are an optimist! In 2008, the commander of the advancing troops in
      Ossetia asked journalists for a cell phone to give commands to subordinates .. You are sure that this will not happen again. I personally don't. Read the telegram channels, military special forces, when on a business trip to Syria, buy equipment, helmets, shoes, batteries with their own money. Can you be proud?
      1. carstorm 11
        carstorm 11 14 November 2020 17: 26
        +1
        you are not quite right about shopping. they buy what is better and not what they have according to the state. I bought myself too. not because of absence, but because expensive shoes are better than cheap ones. but no one would ever add anything like that to my contentment. therefore bought it myself. also watch long batteries and stuff. although he could use what was given.
      2. nobody75
        nobody75 14 November 2020 18: 22
        -4
        What does the quality of the article have to do with it?
        The article contains, to put it mildly, nonsense ...
        Sincerely
        1. timokhin-aa
          14 November 2020 19: 02
          +1
          You write nonsense in the comments.
        2. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 14 November 2020 19: 05
          +2
          Didn't the Russian officer have a mobile phone? Maybe drunk lost? So I could ask my soldiers. As for the purchase of individual items of equipment at their own expense, this was the case even in the Soviet Army. Bought or made at a factory by acquaintance. Our instructor, Art. avenue Zhdanov, on the SVD, there were optics purchased in a store, the bracket was made at the factory.
        3. timokhin-aa
          14 November 2020 19: 09
          +1
          The article was written based on the results of real battles, if that.
  • Ros 56
    Ros 56 14 November 2020 16: 46
    +1
    For Russia, there is only one lesson, a more serious attitude towards submarines and means of combating them. And not only to individuals, but also to weapons-carrying complexes that can operate from a decent distance.
  • t-12
    t-12 14 November 2020 17: 53
    10
    covered themselves with propaganda chatter. Moreover, this continued practically until the end of hostilities (and the surrender of the Armenian side).

    September 19, 1939. The Germans flee in panic. Poles and French bombing Berlin.

  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 14 November 2020 18: 53
    -4
    I especially liked the phrase "complete unconditional victory"))) Aliyev on a white horse, with the Turks on a dancer, drove into Stepanakert?)))) Did I confuse anything?)))
    1. timokhin-aa
      14 November 2020 19: 03
      +2
      No, I stopped 4 kilometers away. But in the heads of the pink ponies, this is "bad".
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 14 November 2020 19: 10
        -5
        What map were you measuring? in Azerbaijani)))) so maybe there are 4 km left to Berlin.?))) Azerbaijanis are now whining in Shusha so that the Russians will provide them with a transport corridor))) how can that be?))) the city was captured, and neither come nor leave , no dry ration to bring?))) will carry through the mountains on donkeys)))
        1. Otshelnik
          Otshelnik 14 November 2020 23: 29
          +3
          The Armenians were also told the same tales ... and now they are telling the same tales, you have no idea what is there and how. But you will soon find out ... but about whining ... how can I say ... in one word in winter you will hear, only then listen to whose cheekbones it is ... do you really think that starting this war we did not foresee these moves ... oh yes, we can only control tomatoes))
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 15 November 2020 10: 45
            0
            I do not argue, in winter you will have fun)) but it will become even more fun in spring, when "green" appears in the mountains and the Armenians will open the hunting season for you. Then have some fun)))
          2. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 15 November 2020 14: 12
            0
            Guys, you have another problem now - how to give the Turks more conveniently. For in the real formula, and not the declared formula of Erdogan, in fact there is one norot - one country - one Fuhrer (well, yes, the sultan) - one faith does not find a place for Aliyev, and with faith it is not very good, considering that old Erdi thinks that his ass will be enough for two thrones at the same time for both the Turkish sultan and the pro-faithful caliph. IMHO will not work. The ass will crack .. Aliyev turned out to be wise, and for a reason he agreed to organize a Russian base on his territory de jure against the Sultan. Erdogan has done his job, Erdogan is going in a certain direction ...
      2. nobody75
        nobody75 14 November 2020 19: 21
        +2
        Please, do not evade ... Describe in detail how a 30mm 2A42, whose projectile will not fly higher than 3000 m, even if you fight, will shoot down "Orlan - 10" with a ceiling of 5000 m or Bayraktar with a ceiling of 8000 m?
        Sincerely
        1. timokhin-aa
          14 November 2020 19: 44
          -3
          Above commented on the 30 mm.
          1. nobody75
            nobody75 14 November 2020 19: 46
            +4
            I read, there is not a word about which magic broom of Harry Potter a 30mm projectile from a unitary cartridge will fly to a height of 5000 m, and even more so 8000 m
            Admit that you wrote an article for the hype ...
            Sincerely
            1. TermNachTer
              TermNachTer 15 November 2020 10: 46
              +1
              Captain tsur zee Timokhin has a long-standing habit of writing some nonsense, but with a large number of figures and very controversial statements and conclusions.
        2. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 22: 22
          0
          For 23-30 mm, do programmable undermining whim and trash. Minimum 57 mm, or better 76 mm. We somehow slapped a couple of 30 mm projectiles into the seiner wheelhouse, so 4 snouts that were there escaped with a slight fright and one person was injured. His head was blown off by a direct hit. From the word in general ...
          1. nobody75
            nobody75 14 November 2020 22: 44
            +1
            So what does the Author insist on? On the "most massive" 2A42! There is not only a programmable fuse, but also a canister round! I think it is necessary to make the ZSU in the caliber of 57 mm an actively guided missile with radio command guidance and detonation. I think that such a solution will be optimal in terms of rate of fire, reaction time and ammunition carried.
            Sincerely
            1. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 23: 06
              +1
              Quote: nobody75
              On the "most massive" 2A42! There is not only a programmable fuse for him, but also a canister round!


              It won't work that way. You need the appropriate SUAZO. And such a thing is extremely expensive, and not yet an option to have it on all BMP / armored personnel carriers. Another question is that it would be reasonable to have "Anti-aircraft infantry fighting vehicles" in battle formations, this might be the way out. BUT, such a SPAAG must correspond to the appearance and signature of a conventional BMP. Perhaps you need a combat module anti-aircraft + for this SAM Sosna? I don't know - the question needs to be worked out ...

              I think it is necessary to make the ZSU in the caliber of 57 mm an actively guided missile with radio command guidance and detonation.


              IMHO - 76 mm, there is a naval one - it must be done for the army as well. Reach in height up to 7 km with a conventional projectile. 57 mm only reaches 5 km.

              By the way, what is ACS TK?
              1. nobody75
                nobody75 14 November 2020 23: 10
                0
                IMHO - 76 mm, there is a naval one - it must be done for the army too

                Excuse me, but what about the ammunition load and the rate of fire? and I was going to shoot 57 mm ars! If I put the direct-flow engine on and I will get it up to 10 km!
                Sincerely
                1. Cyril G ...
                  Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 23: 18
                  +1
                  As for the ammunition load, I do not know - I kind of know the AK-176 quite well. There, 152 shells were stored in the turret. Rate of fire - 120 rpm. We need a tank chassis as I understand it.
                  1. nobody75
                    nobody75 15 November 2020 07: 46
                    +1
                    I completely agree - it is necessary to design a light tank with a 76 mm cannon with high (sea) ballistics. But here, as always, the problem of radar and OLS placement arises ... And what about booking? And with the ability to work on the ground?
                    But not the point. I'm not a spiteful person ... I liked the author.
                    1 The title raised the topic is correct. You need to learn from the mistakes of others.
                    2 Then the author put forward the "April theses" - quite controversial in my opinion.
                    3 Then comes the conclusion - everything is lost. The "April Theses" are not implemented by the army leadership.
                    Excuse me, but where are the real lessons of the Karabakh war?
                    Sincerely
                    1. Cyril G ...
                      Cyril G ... 15 November 2020 12: 54
                      0
                      Quote: nobody75
                      But here, as always, the problem of radar and OLS placement arises ... And what about booking? And with the ability to work on the ground?




                      As you can see, there is an OEPS on a wheeled vehicle, and a radar control system + OEPS on a tracked vehicle.
                      The armor can obviously range from anti-fragmentation and anti-bullet protection on a wheeled vehicle to anti-cannon armor that protects against + - 25-30 mm shells.
                      Now about the air defense of tactical units, from the battalion and below, 30 mm guns and software detonation.
                      I would like to understand the following:
                      - what is the price of modernizing the weapons complex, for example, the BMP-2, to the ability to confidently hit with projectiles with programmed blasting of UAVs "made of shit and sticks", of this type

                      - how many such projectiles are needed to ensure the probability of hitting at least 0.8 for a drone of this type at distances from 3000 to 1000 meters. (Preferably at intervals of every 500 meters)
                      - what is the price of a conventional OFS and a projectile providing software detonation ... At least by the example of the Americans with their 25 mm Bushmaster
  • Tank hard
    Tank hard 14 November 2020 19: 21
    +3
    Interesting article and very interesting comments. I read it with great interest. Thank you. hi
    1. nobody75
      nobody75 14 November 2020 19: 47
      +3
      Yes ... Toastmaster is cool and interesting contests ...
      Sincerely
      1. Tank hard
        Tank hard 14 November 2020 19: 58
        +1
        Quote: nobody75
        Yes ... Toastmaster is cool and interesting contests ...
        Sincerely

        Well, everyone has their own disadvantages.
        With respect. hi
        1. nobody75
          nobody75 14 November 2020 21: 32
          0
          Excuse me, you also think that BMP-2 should be taught to work with a shrapnel shell on an UAV?
          And how will it differ from the Shell then? Maybe the "Tula" are not completely fools? And then their author and in the tail and in the mane ...
          Sincerely
          1. Tank hard
            Tank hard 14 November 2020 21: 38
            +4
            Quote: nobody75
            Excuse me, you also think that BMP-2 should be taught to work with a shrapnel shell on an UAV?
            And how will it differ from the Shell then? Maybe the "Tula" are not completely fools? And then their author and in the tail and in the mane ...

            Ilya, I am not very competent in the use of UAVs and countering them. But I think that an article calling for lessons to be learned from the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh is very important, so that it would not be excruciatingly painful for wasted time, in this I support the author.
            With respect. hi
            1. nobody75
              nobody75 14 November 2020 21: 41
              -3
              So, "military historians" have already been sent to Karabakh. Azeris will not be released from Shusha until the cards and war logs are handed over ...
              Sincerely
              1. Tank hard
                Tank hard 14 November 2020 21: 54
                +1
                Quote: nobody75
                So, "military historians" have already been sent to Karabakh. Azeris will not be released from Shusha until the cards and war logs are handed over ...
                Sincerely

                Here I can’t say anything path, because I don’t know. Everything that I sincerely believed was voiced earlier. I didn't give you any cons.
                With respect. hi
                1. nobody75
                  nobody75 14 November 2020 21: 58
                  0
                  Thank you for this ... I feel I will soon be "demoted" ...
                  Sincerely
                  1. Tank hard
                    Tank hard 14 November 2020 22: 02
                    0
                    Quote: nobody75
                    Thank you for this ... I feel I will soon be "demoted" ...
                    Sincerely

                    Everyone has their own opinion, punishing different opinions is not comme il faut. IMHO All the best to you!
                    With respect. hi
              2. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 15 November 2020 10: 50
                0
                Karabakh showed only that the Armenians did not have a normal air defense system at all, especially "sharpened" for work on UAVs. From this we must conclude
  • serezhasoldatow
    serezhasoldatow 14 November 2020 19: 46
    -1
    I haven't read such crap, as the chief says. Are there too many parades in Syria? Look in other regions as well. Did you want to please the USA and Turkey? So they pleased these ... the president and the prime minister.
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 14 November 2020 21: 26
    +6
    In Armenia, let the Ars figure out who and how ruled the country and how he fought. BUT in the General Staff of the Russian Federation it is necessary to carefully look at the lessons of this war and the successes of the UAV, etc. to Azerbaijani. and the failure of the air defense and the helplessness of the Armenian forces (NKR + Arm.) on the ground

    If you don't have enough money to develop your own UAVs, add it. And competent developers from aviation design bureaus can strain more tightly for this segment.
    And then the Armenians had SU-30 and Iskander idle, while Az. I was not afraid of them!
  • agoran
    agoran 14 November 2020 21: 58
    -3
    Pashinyan is a magpie.
    The largest quarter of the Anglo-Saxon diplomatic mission.
    The age-old dream of the Anglo-Saxons is to drag Russia into the war with Turkey.
    The operation for the deployment of Russian military bases was carried out very gracefully (remember how the Armenians opposed the Russian base?).
    This is the main lesson.
  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 14 November 2020 23: 37
    0
    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
    With a lot of relatively cheap rockets. Iron Dome / LOWER AD


    Jews somewhere brazenly lie.
    There, either the missile defense system does not have ARGSN, but a banal RKTU, or the price is not at all 40 thousand. bucks
  • Mmm.
    Mmm. 15 November 2020 00: 58
    +1
    The leadership of the Russian Federation will not take into account anything, + will make their mistakes with much more serious consequences. There is no other way. For example, actions on: "coronavirus", financial policy, social, pension, demographic, industrial sector, space, aviation, foreign and domestic policy, etc. We are led into the kingdom of heaven.
  • Connor MacLeod
    Connor MacLeod 15 November 2020 04: 21
    0
    It would be better to drive gas through Khokhlyandia, as before ...
  • Alexey Polyutkin
    Alexey Polyutkin 15 November 2020 10: 15
    -2
    Is the author hysterical? Such a feeling. Yes! Neither drones nor the means of detecting and destroying them were predicted and did not develop in time - shame on our pot-bellied generals preparing for the last war. Moreover, the whole world is not yet able to effectively repel drone attacks, as far as I know.
    The rest of the author's howls when comparing Armenia and Russia are not at all corectual.
    In order not to spray for a long time, I summarize:
    With the unmanned part of the problem, we have the right people in the know, we are closing the gap.
    IMHO.
  • Diviz
    Diviz 15 November 2020 11: 45
    -1
    We must use and create new technologies. To avoid flying over the territories of other countries. Create planes that flew to another territory through near space.
  • Naughty
    Naughty 15 November 2020 13: 08
    0
    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
    When will the homework be done?


    This is all called blah ... blah ... blah Russia does not need to do a lesson from the turmoil of two fraternal peoples wink Let them learn laughing
  • Azimuth
    Azimuth 15 November 2020 13: 29
    0
    Well, after the signing of an agreement with the Turks on the coordination center and the fact that ours did not just go for it, but it was generally discussed, only disappointment. I confess I thought much better about our diplomacy, hoping that we had worked on our mistakes and that they would not surrender the Transcaucasia by bargaining in other directions.
    So there is only one lesson and only one conclusion - WE LOST. Today it is clear that we lost in the net.
    The Turks will introduce troops, formally I have the right to do so, into the territory of Azerbaijan and conditionally with his consent. Their troops will stand along the line of our peacekeepers' posts, which, unlike our troops, are not limited either in the number of personnel, or in equipment and its types. That is, our peacekeepers have become hostages and, at best, in 4.5 years they will fly out like a cork of champagne, although sooner sooner. We only help Pashinyan with this, in order to create the illusion of security among the Karabakh Armenians, thereby reducing the number of protesters in Yerevan. The fact that the Armenians will leave Stepanakert in a year or a year and a half, as they sober up, is a FACT.
    In addition to using us, we ourselves and at our own expense will protect the railway and the road from Azerbaijan to Nakhichevan, and then further to Turkey, thus increasing the throughput of the southern bypass route, that is, around, bypassing us.
    Pashinyan also holds on in order to put his successor on the throne, finishing off the pro-Russian forces. Armenia will quite reasonably look for a new guarantor of security and an ally, and this is the United States and NATO, and other CSTO members will now put a device on it.
    Georgia already has one foot in NATO, Armenia will leave us in the same direction, NATO troops are deploying in Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan, like Georgia and our ally Armenia, has been participating in many NATO programs for a long time and has also matured for membership ... It seems to me, or is the encirclement of us in Europe completed? ...
    Or even Pashinyan himself, but most likely the new leadership of Armenia will ask our base out. After that, what's the use of peacekeepers with light weapons, surrounded on three sides by superior forces, and only on the fourth with a narrow exit to Armenia, where in the near future either our base will not become or the mood will be unfriendly? ...
    I think events will develop rapidly, from next year everything will collapse like an avalanche.

    This is an option, under a bad mood amid the news. Do not judge strictly, I do not see everything clearly and I cannot take into account, I have never been an analyst, but now, when the Turks, all the same, have encouraged us to sign an agreement on the center, the opinion and visible prospects are as follows.
    1. Dart2027
      Dart2027 15 November 2020 14: 09
      -1
      Quote: Azimuth
      The Turks will introduce troops, formally I have the right to do so, into the territory of Azerbaijan and conditionally with his consent. Their troops will line up along the line of our peacekeepers

      “No peacekeeping units of the Turkish Republic will be sent to Nagorno-Karabakh. This is clearly stated in the statement of the leaders of Azerbaijan, Armenia and Russia, the head of Russian diplomacy stressed. "The boundaries of the mobility of Turkish observers are limited by those geographic coordinates that will be determined for the location, placement of the created Russian-Turkish monitoring center on the territory of Azerbaijan, in that part of the territory that is not close to Karabakh and which will be additionally agreed upon."
      More details: https://eadaily.com/ru/news/2020/11/14/voennye-rossii-i-turcii-prodolzhat-konsultacii-po-karabahu
      Quote: Azimuth
      Armenia will quite reasonably be looking for a new guarantor of security and an ally, and this is the United States and NATO,

      And that they somehow helped them?
    2. Old major
      Old major 15 November 2020 20: 25
      0
      So many exaggerations and assumptions, but in reality - only decadence and whimpering.
      1. Azimuth
        Azimuth 15 November 2020 21: 41
        0
        Maybe. But ... anything is possible.
        They were unable to crush Pashinyan. This time.
        We are not talking about the introduction of Turkish troops into the territory controlled by our peacekeepers, they will be on the territory of Azerbaijan. These are two.
        No, after all, they have blown the situevina, if now and momentarily, then we are on horseback, and if we take into account the prospects, then we have blown it out and thoroughly blown it.
  • StarTroopers
    StarTroopers 15 November 2020 15: 16
    -3
    I just do not understand how one state can openly and treacherously attack another? Killing 18 year old pranas? Then cut off the ears for the camera? what does Aliyev hope for later? He put himself on a par with Hitler, Mussolini, Bush and Clinton.
  • Chevron
    Chevron 15 November 2020 17: 18
    -1
    There is only one problem with the production of drones - there is no production of engines for small aircraft, since this small aircraft has not developed for the last 30 years, but has only been persecuted by state officials, completely abandoned, driven by laws into such a framework in which it cannot survive ... They, (security officials, lobbyists of all laws on small aircraft), always thought - the less small aircraft in the country (or better - when there is no small aircraft at all) - the easier it is for them to live, no one will be lucky "bonbu" on board. Now, frowning stern eyebrows under the peak of a large cap, something began to reach many. But I'm afraid it's too late. Welcome to the Rotax line, gentlemen.
    1. Old major
      Old major 15 November 2020 20: 21
      +1
      And what, there are already tactical developments in the combat use of UAVs? Well, drones for conducting tactical reconnaissance and adjusting art. fire - understandable. But heavy shock drones such as Bayraktar at a price comparable to the price of the MiG-29 or F-16 and almost equal in price to the Yak-130, the tactics of their use (and, accordingly, the need and quantity) are not at all obvious. A war with Armenian insurgents and combatants is one thing, and a war with the real armed forces of the enemy is quite another.
  • Moskal 55
    Moskal 55 15 November 2020 19: 00
    0
    Armenians now need to remove Pashinyan and his entire team at any cost! Soros has a lot to do with it! Yes, it is our own fault. But there is no other way to fix it!
    1. Azimuth
      Azimuth 15 November 2020 21: 50
      0
      the Americans will not let them grab him on the way ... The Armenian "opposition", despite all their "love for Russia", apparently has a wallet in the West. And to hold such by the wallet is to keep them tighter than the balls.
  • Old major
    Old major 15 November 2020 20: 12
    +2
    ... That is, nothing at all. Roughly speaking - the author simply comes up with a horror story, and then encourages her to be afraid.
    About the problems with Azerbaijani UAVs in Karabakh - is there news for someone that the positions of the ground forces need effective cover by air defense? For some, it’s a secret that there is a regimental air defense link, a divisional one, systems that cover objects at high altitudes, there are observation and target designation stations, and all this must work in a single system - then the air defense will be effective. Did the Armenians have that? No. They could not even cover their positions with Osami and Strelami-10 (although these are very old systems), that is, their ground positions were often not covered by air defense systems at all.
    In general, do you know that the Armenian army did not fight in Karabakh? That Armenia did not recognize Karabakh. And therefore - Karabakh was defended by the "Karabakh Defense Army" (created on the basis of the 366th Guards MSR SA) and volunteer detachments that did not have any regular organization or standard weapons. That is why Pashinyan made excuses that a detachment of some "Geghama Harutyunyan" did not come to Shusha (that is, some field commander did not lead his detachment to the right place, army, yeah). That is, roughly speaking, it was not a war between two armies, but a series of clashes between the regular army of Azerbaijan and heterogeneous forces with relative one-man command and weak unified management.
    And there and then a number of conclusions - what about us, why Armata did not enter, oh, and Derivation is lagging behind in entering the troops. What relation Armata has to the events in Karabakh is not clear, but it is necessary to kick. And it would be good to have an analyst on the arrival of new types of weapons, but there is nothing about it.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 16 November 2020 12: 23
      +1
      Quote: Old Major
      ... That is, nothing at all. Roughly speaking - the author simply comes up with a horror story, and then encourages her to be afraid.

      You have noticed absolutely everything and I completely agree with your assessment. As far as I understand, you apparently served in the army for more than one year and know how to separate the grain from the chaff, which is why you are skeptical about the arguments of home-grown strategists. I share your point of view - the dispersal of the "courtyard punks" is not a war for which we should be prepared.
  • UAZ 452
    UAZ 452 15 November 2020 23: 17
    +1
    It is not difficult to see that in many ways the Russian Navy (and not only the Russian Navy) is preparing for parades rather than for war.

    Not just the Navy. With the current parades and other shows (including temple building) - at the forefront. Preparation begins in February, for the same cadets, these three months every year are essentially torn out of the educational process (formally, it continues, but if the whole concern of the leadership of the higher educational institutions is not to lose face in the parade, then the study proceeds according to the residual principle).
    The exercises, in essence, also turned into a show, with near-zero value for the real combat training of troops, because the element of surprise in the show exercises is completely excluded, the role of each in the performance is painted every second.
    The work on re-equipping the Armed Forces with modern competitive combat equipment and weapons has turned into a PR campaign with the "global analogue" refrain repeating in every way.
    The monetary allowance of servicemen for 12 years without a significant increase has again ceased to be competitive in comparison with the civilian labor market, and this inevitably leads to the lumpenization of the Armed Forces, negative selection.
    In short, in the dilemma "to be or to seem," the leadership of the Armed Forces made an unambiguous and quite conscious choice in favor of the second option, preferring the showiness of efficiency.
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 16 November 2020 08: 11
    -2
    We shouldn't be interested in what to do if 2 hundreds of Polish minidrones arrive. But the Poles should be very interested in what to do in case of arrival of Iskanders and full-fledged strike aircraft with a load of 8-10 tons.
    1. Imobile
      Imobile 16 November 2020 09: 51
      0
      Then we should also be interested in the fact that a hundred times more full-fledged strike aircraft will arrive in the return line.
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 16 November 2020 09: 53
        -2
        Does Poland or even the notorious NATA have 100 times more planes? Show me such an Air Force, otherwise I won't be impressed by a hundred Eurofighters from some Germany.
  • Job74
    Job74 16 November 2020 11: 25
    0
    Thunder will not strike - a man will not cross himself (the wisdom of great-grandfathers).
  • loaln
    loaln 16 November 2020 12: 17
    +2
    Which lessons? Whom to teach?
    What have not yet been understood in what reality do you exist?
    CAPITALISM around and in EVERYTHING.
    Even defeat is planned as a profitable business transaction.
    What kind of propaganda is someone talking about?
    The leadership (servants of the oligarchs) and the people exist not only in different realities, but also in different planes.
    And the bigwigs of capitalism know this, therefore they do not go into battle, I send mongrels there from the periphery.
    And they don't care what the people think.
    The war will be serious, but only when the ruling elite agree on the post-war division of spheres of influence and assets.
    War is needed for them as a METHOD OF ZEROING the assailants' obligations to the peoples.
    Mostly financial.
    So look at this through the prism of capitalist relationships.
    It is a pity that the people of Nagorno-Karabakh did not understand all this.
  • Egor53
    Egor53 16 November 2020 12: 40
    -3
    The Karabakh lessons for Russia are that we need to destroy the 5th column. And to destroy physically.
    As long as Ekho Moskvy is funded by Gazprom and Chubais walks free, no amount of weapons will ensure Russia's complete security.
  • Alexander Vorontsov
    Alexander Vorontsov 16 November 2020 13: 55
    -2
    The author, a very good article, both on the importance of the issue and on how the main problems are revealed.

    Yes, Russia urgently needs a tree.

    At the same time, it turned out that we missed equipping the mass 30-mm cannon 2A42 for shrapnel shells (the path that the United States took with its Bushmaster). Yes, this is not a 57-mm "Derivation", but this is what the troops already have in large quantities. And this is what, in a relatively short time, can massively saturate the troops with effective "anti-UAV air defense"

    Massively in the troops there are only "guns" and sighting systems for firing ballistic ammunition (without detonation).


    The essence of the tree:
    - an optoelectronic complex that will effectively detect drones.
    - a ballistic computer that will calculate the lead.

    The problem is that the parameters of this calculator must take into account a number of factors that directly depend on the caliber. Such as ballistics, the speed of the projectile, the number of submunitions in it, the speed of their expansion and the "pattern" of the submunitions when flying. That depends on their line-up and quantity. That also depends on the size of the ammunition and the number of explosives in it.

    Establishing mass production of shells ... and creating an effective shell is also a problem. Can be undermined with scatter along the front, or on the sides. And this will change the algorithms for calculating the aiming point.


    Taking into account the fact that there is also a 57 mm barrel ... and even if some modifications are needed, the barrel artillery is not a wonder of the world.

    The fact that in 30 mm caliber to execute, that in 57 ... in time, heaven and earth are the same in terms of capabilities.
  • OXOTHuK_TyHYC
    OXOTHuK_TyHYC 17 November 2020 03: 23
    0
    Russia needs radars of a completely different level.
    We need to teach how to detect composite materials.
    And this requires software with powerful algorithms to cut signals from a flock of birds.
  • OXOTHuK_TyHYC
    OXOTHuK_TyHYC 17 November 2020 04: 17
    0
    Turkey fully participated in the Karabakh war. Several dozen "bayraktars" were able to replace the same number of bombers. The Turks were able to create a hybrid war sitting at home by driving drones.
    Moreover, the UAVs are made of composite materials that are imperceptible for radars, noiseless at an altitude of 5 km.

    Turkey is now 10 steps ahead in the creation of UAVs and in their integration with space satellites. And their development is progressing rapidly.

    And Russia went the other way creating tracked drones, which turned out to be ineffective in modern combat conditions.
  • OXOTHuK_TyHYC
    OXOTHuK_TyHYC 17 November 2020 04: 32
    0
    Perhaps the Turks bought the S-400 in order to test their UAVs for Russian radars. And before that, they could study the S-300 radar, BUK in Ukraine.
    So the Turks have been preparing for an operation in Karabakh for a long time.
  • vvp2412
    vvp2412 17 November 2020 13: 20
    0
    The comrade is right about something, but he tries to compare] [er with a finger! It's one thing the barmaley launch drones at the base in Khmeimim, another thing the state of Poland is attacking the Russian enclave - the Kaliningrad region. I believe that the first answer will be - striking the control centers! And that's all. The war will end there ...
    Even the United States does not consider it realistic to start a war with the Russian Federation, but he is about Poland ...
    If the author did not notice, then full-scale wars have not been fought for a very long time. And if they start, then only against the initially weaker opponent!
    We do not take into account the semi-partisan formations.
    No one will fight now, even with a weaker enemy, but when there is a real chance to receive at least some severe damage!
    The United States does not even dare to bomb Iran! Kill the general with a rocket just from under the tishka!
    But even Iran was not afraid to retaliate with a missile attack on the US base!
    What does the author write about?
    Give him a sedative!
    Poland is attacking Kaliningrad with drones! :)))))) Petrosyan is his relative - definitely!
  • ua1osm
    ua1osm 25 November 2020 20: 50
    0
    Our generals have always been strong in past wars. In 1941, even Budyonny tried to fight with cavalry. But what is cavalry against MG-42 fire? The losses of our horsemen in the attacks near Rzhev have not yet been published. Weep. The cavalry is sometimes good, for example - a surprise attack on enemy columns on the march in a suitable area when he is not ready. But the same thing is easier to do with ground attack aircraft.
    The Turks in the 19th century smashed the Russian army to pieces, because they had more modern five-shot magazine rifles, and the Russian army, in the old-fashioned way, had single-shot Berdanks. So history does not teach our luminescence anything.