Military Review

So who was Karabakh: history of the ancient region

163

The reconciliation that has finally arrived in the mountains of the Caucasus undoubtedly evokes the most sincere joy. However, while welcoming the cessation of hostilities there, one involuntarily asks the question: "For how long?" Alas - rooted in incredibly hoary antiquity история Nagorno-Karabakh is a chronicle, in which there are much more episodes of bloody struggle and desperate confrontation than peaceful and calm periods.


If we talk about for which of the peoples - Armenian or Azerbaijani, this land is "primordial", then both sides will have to disappoint. The first on it were neither the one nor the other, but completely unknown peoples, according to historians, not even belonging to the Indo-European family. However, they were replaced by the ancestors of today's Armenians, and this was even before our era. It was then that Great Armenia existed in the Caucasus, which included these territories under the name Artsakh. But after its fall, a real carousel of changes of rulers and conquerors, principalities, kingdoms and khanates began.

Arabs, Seljuk Turks, Turkomans, nomad Mongols (by the way, who gave this land its present name, which translates as "Black Garden"). Artsakh was part of Persia, Caucasian Albania, was under the rule of Bagratids, Selefids, Beglerbeks and Meliks. Through it lay the nomadic and military paths of many peoples and tribes - both known to us and nameless ones that have sunk into eternity. It is clear that all these numerous migrations and, in modern terms, "geopolitical reformatting" were carried out according to the then traditions - that is, with fire and sword.

At the turn of the 1805th-XNUMXth centuries, Karabakh, like the rest of Armenia, found itself in a very, to put it mildly, unfriendly, predominantly Muslim environment. Neither Persia, nor, moreover, the Ottoman Empire with their aggressive expansionist policy, coupled with extreme cruelty towards “infidels”, could in no way be considered good neighbors. Like other peoples of the Caucasus, the inhabitants of Artsakh, which ended up in the Karabakh Khanate, found their salvation in the Russian Empire, under whose scepter they were accepted in XNUMX.

After that, peace and tranquility came to the lands of Nagorno-Karabakh for more than a hundred years. The Armenian population quite normally coexisted with the Azerbaijani, and there was not even talk of any "showdown" between them. This continued until the collapse of the Empire, which plunged all the peoples inhabiting it into the abyss of fratricidal wars. The first Armenian-Azerbaijani war broke out in 1918. It continued with varying success for both sides until 1920. Even then, behind Baku was Turkey, which promised the Azerbaijani side all-round support and assistance in establishing full control over Nagorno-Karabakh and fulfilled its promises with great zeal. Truly, there is nothing new in this world ...

For several years the Caucasus and Transcaucasia turned into a boiling cauldron, an absolutely unimaginable whirlwind of seizures of "disputed territories", coups, uprisings, partisan movements and just a war of all against all. The British, Americans and God knows who else tried to defend their interests there. Most of all, of course, the Turks were zealous, trying to compensate for the colossal territorial and economic losses suffered by the results of the First World War with their activity in this region.

All this continued exactly until the Republic of Soviets, which had grown stronger and had dealt with the most sworn enemies, finally got their hands on the "national outskirts". An end to the bloody mess in the Caucasus was put by the arrival of the 11th Army of the Red Army, which had before that smashed the last parts of Denikin. Ultimately, the same fate befell the Armenian Dashnaks, the Azerbaijani Musavatists, and all others who did not want to understand that a completely new time was coming. Tellingly, at that moment Turkey was vitally interested in an alliance with the RSFSR and therefore did not interfere with the establishment of Soviet power in the territories of Armenia and Azerbaijan. And she could not do it, by and large.

The issue of Nagorno-Karabakh's belonging to one of the newly formed Soviet republics was resolved for a long time and with great difficulty. One of Stalin's closest associates, Sergei Kirov, was personally involved in the demarcation of the borders in the region. After long hesitation, the choice was made in favor of the creation of an autonomous Nagorno-Karabakh region within Azerbaijan. At the same time, according to the then population censuses, the absolute majority of the population of the region were just Armenians. Nevertheless, for the 65 years that passed after that, the local land again forgot the sounds of explosions and shots, and stopped sprinkling with both Armenian and Azerbaijani blood. In the Soviet Union, "interethnic strife" was not supposed to be - and that was not.

The flames of the conflict flared up with renewed vigor in the early 90s. Direct military actions, which remained in history under the name of the First Karabakh War, were preceded by a gradual but steady and ever-increasing escalation of tension, which the then leadership of the USSR, whose actions were essentially aimed at the collapse of the country, either did not want to, or could not. Most likely - both. The movement for the "self-determination of Nagorno-Karabakh" that began with peaceful demonstrations and rallies very quickly led to pogroms, mass riots and inter-ethnic clashes with human casualties. And in 1991, after the final collapse of the Soviet Union, guns began to speak ...

The result of that conflict, which ended in an armistice in 1994, was the formation of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic in the form in which it existed until this year. As it turned out, Baku did not put up with the defeat and the incurred territorial losses and prepared very well for revenge - in any case, much better than in Yerevan. Peace has been brought to the long-suffering land of Artsakh today. And, for the umpteenth time, Russian soldiers are carrying it. According to the agreements reached, they will have to play the role of peacekeepers in this region for at least the next five years. Let's hope that this time will not become another prologue to a new war.
Author:
Photos used:
Photo from Wikipedia Armenian militias in Karabakh 1918
163 comments
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  1. Lexus
    Lexus 12 November 2020 05: 46
    15
    In its present form, the world will not stay there for long.
    1. BDRM 667
      BDRM 667 12 November 2020 06: 30
      +8

      A very original and apparently quite functional unloading-bandolier, as for the beginning of the last century yes
      Obviously, it may well be considered a prototype version of the Chinese "bra" - "Chi kom"
      1. figwam
        figwam 12 November 2020 06: 36
        +4
        And in the hands of a three-line rifle Mosin.
        1. BDRM 667
          BDRM 667 12 November 2020 06: 48
          +9
          Quote: figvam
          And in the hands of a three-line rifle Mosin.

          So these are the Armenian militias in Nagorno-Karabakh during the Armenian-Azerbaijani war of 1918-20.
          Fragments of the collapsed Russian Empire during the creation of the Soviet Union.
          It would be amazing to see something different in their hands.
          1. figwam
            figwam 12 November 2020 08: 08
            +7
            Quote: BDRM 667
            So these are the Armenian militias

            So here I am about the same, the militia can be armed with anything, and at that time the Mosin rifle was a modern and expensive small arms.
            1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 12 November 2020 14: 21
              +2
              Quote: figvam
              So here I am about the same, the militia can be armed with anything, and at that time the Mosin rifle was a modern and expensive small arms.


              “Armenian revolutionaries managed to arm a significant number of Armenian youth Mauser rifles and other weapons and even get mountain artillery, machine guns and equip many bombs "

              N.N. Durnovo "Russian Pan-Slavist policy in the Orthodox East and in Russia"
          2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 12 November 2020 14: 06
            +3
            Quote: BDRM 667
            It would be amazing to see something different in their hands.

            Well here, be surprised)
            These are Armenian fedayis from Shushi.
            Quite without a mosin
            1. vladcub
              vladcub 12 November 2020 16: 22
              +3
              It is quite possible that you remember in RAI by 1917 the following were in service: three-line, Arisaka, Mauser, Winchester. And in the Red Army in 1941, the following were in service: three-line, "lights", Winchester. So no surprise.
              1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 12 November 2020 17: 05
                -3
                Quote: vladcub
                So no wonder.


                I actually answered this:

                Quote: BDRM 667
                It would be amazing to see something different in their hands.


                I personally am not surprised at the presence of Mannlicher, Mauser and other shooters in the Caucasus.
                1. vladcub
                  vladcub 12 November 2020 18: 01
                  +1
                  Paragraph, I myself live in the Caucasus and I know the local mentality: ANY small arms will be found
                  1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 12 November 2020 19: 59
                    0
                    Quote: vladcub
                    Paragraph, I myself live in the Caucasus and I know the local mentality: ANY small arms will be found

                    What does your place of residence and mentality have to do with it? I was fucking talking about something completely different! The same Nzhdeh smuggled all the weapons into Persia that he could get. Then the Dashnaks fought with him. Therefore, the Armenian revolutionaries cannot be "surprised" by a hodgepodge of weapons. It is strange that the comrade to whom my remark was addressed believes that "only a mosinka - that's all." It would be foolish to argue that when the rifle hunger of the Republic of Ingushetia in 1915, it drove three-line cars to Armenian volunteers in XNUMX. What is not clear in my thesis?
          3. militarist63
            militarist63 13 November 2020 03: 53
            0
            In 1918-20, just in the "fragments of the collapsed Russian Empire", it was not at all surprising to see a LOT OF ANYTHING OTHER than the Mosin three-line rifle!
            The Russian Empire, literally before collapse (with the outbreak of the First World War), also bought Japanese Arisaka rifles (standard 6,5 mm, and Mexican rifles - 7 mm). And the Americans in 1915-17 produced and delivered to Russia (under the order) about 300 thousand of their Winchester Model 1895 (Russian version) under our cartridge 7,62 × 54 mm R. By the way, these Winchesters (preserved in the warehouses of the GRAU), then , in 1941 they partially armed the Moscow militia ...
            And the French, with the beginning of the 1st World War ...., delivered to Russia half a million of their ancient 11-mm Gra and Gra-Kropchek rifles, and even about 80 thousand Lebel M8 1886-mm rifles (they were sent, just to Caucasian Front) ... Add here the captured Austro-Hungarian and German rifles (M95 and Mauser 98), as well as the domestic old Berdan rifles, which in the First World War ... were removed from storage and given to the troops ...
        2. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 12 November 2020 08: 16
          0
          And in the hands of a three-line rifle Mosin.

          Judging by the length, this is a carbine.
          1. figwam
            figwam 12 November 2020 08: 28
            +4
            Quote: Aviator_
            Judging by the length, this is a carbine.

            No, a carbine with a bayonet of 1330 mm, and a rifle with a bayonet of 1650-1730 mm, depending on the modification.
        3. Alien From
          Alien From 12 November 2020 15: 48
          +1
          A very colorful photo, imagine how much such an unloading chain mail weighs)
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 12 November 2020 16: 13
        +3
        Quite a handy thing. A brother served in Afghanistan and said that the guys got from the spirits, sewed for themselves. He demobilized before there were domestic vehicles "factory"
      3. Alexfly
        Alexfly 13 November 2020 13: 23
        0
        The bullets in the bandoliers are still semicircular, not pointed ...
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    3. The comment was deleted.
  2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 12 November 2020 05: 50
    +6
    Galloping across Europe, in our case, across the Transcaucasia with its culminating tie of peoples and nationalities living in this region.
    1. Lexus
      Lexus 12 November 2020 06: 05
      +8
      The plans of the "partners" do not include an idyll along the perimeter of Russia and China.
    2. BDRM 667
      BDRM 667 12 November 2020 06: 41
      +8
      Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Galloping across Europe, in our case, across the Transcaucasia with its culminating tie of peoples and nationalities living in this region.

      What do you want from a tiny article?
      In reality, in order to at least slightly reveal the depths of historical processes in any region inhabited since ancient times, global research is needed taking into account the enormous amount of facts and already existing research of historians. And a scientific work will be released, in volumes, volumes, and volumes yes

      An article, so, a grain ... Not claiming to be a generalization of the confusing history of this region.
      1. Foxmara
        Foxmara 12 November 2020 08: 30
        15
        But accurately and concisely setting out the essence. Who, whom and how cut over the centuries is, in principle, interesting only to historians. It is clear that the territory was actively fighting outside of Russia all the time. And such a fate will be in store for her outside Russia and beyond. since Armenians by themselves are not able to come to an agreement either with Azerbaijan or with Iran, and as practice has shown, even with Russia. But in 92-94. At least two politicians predicted this, Primakov and Zhirinovsky. And they strongly advised to close the conflict. But the Armenians refused.
    3. Peter rybak
      Peter rybak 12 November 2020 07: 56
      +5
      Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Galloping across Europe, in our case, across the Transcaucasia with its culminating tie of peoples and nationalities living in this region.


      History is a traitor. For centuries, everyone who wanted to put a hand to its foundations. The same Ptolemy, creating maps, questioned merchants who brought goods to Alexandria. Published coordinates, indicating their geographic longitude and latitude, eight thousand points (cities, rivers, etc.) from Scandinavia to Egypt and from the Atlantic to Indochina. It is clear that he did not visit all these eight thousand points. But the merchants came and talked. And the aging astronomer, mathematician, mechanic, musician Claudius Ptolemy listened and put all this on the cards. As a result, the coordinates turned out to be blurry, but everyone knew that there was such and such a city, river, lake and seas.
      So, the history of the past cannot be trusted for a second. It was written by those who were the first to get pen and paper and who were more cunning.
      1. BDRM 667
        BDRM 667 12 November 2020 11: 21
        +4
        Quote: Peter Rybak
        History is a traitor. For centuries, everyone who wanted to put a hand to its foundations. The same Ptolemy, creating maps, questioned merchants who brought goods to Alexandria. Published coordinates, indicating their geographic longitude and latitude, eight thousand points (cities, rivers, etc.) from Scandinavia to Egypt and from the Atlantic to Indochina. It is clear that he did not visit all these eight thousand points. But the merchants came and talked. And the aging astronomer, mathematician, mechanic, musician Claudius Ptolemy listened and put all this on the cards. As a result, the coordinates were blurry, but everyone knew that about there and there such and such a city, river, lake and seas.

        And here is an example that is relatively close in the historical dimension -



        What idea would we have if we lost the original painting?
        Fortunately, the masterpiece has come down to us in its original form, but what if not?
        Or modern "restorers" would "have a hand" to it, as in the Spanish city of Palencia - the result of restoration work before and after:





        Not otherwise CAM METR Mr. Bean advised ...

        1. depressant
          depressant 13 November 2020 00: 30
          +2
          Colleague, but the restoration of the facade of the Hermitage in St. Petersburg! There was such a scandal.
  3. Runway
    Runway 12 November 2020 05: 51
    +3
    It is important to understand who he has become and who will be in the future.
    1. Anatole Klim
      Anatole Klim 12 November 2020 07: 02
      +9
      Quote: WFP
      who he has become and who will be in the future.

      Based on the history, the one who is stronger at the moment is Karabakh, the Arabs were strong - their Karabakh, the Persians became more powerful - their Karabakh ..., in the 90s Karabakh became Armenian, now the pendulum swung in the opposite direction, and then even hard to guess. request
      1. Nasdaq
        Nasdaq 12 November 2020 17: 04
        +2
        who he has become and who will be in the future.

        Based on the history, the one who is stronger at the moment is Karabakh, the Arabs were strong - their Karabakh, the Persians became more powerful - their Karabakh ..., in the 90s Karabakh became Armenian, now the pendulum swung in the opposite direction, and then even hard to guess. request


        Various empires owned these lands.
        But no one will ask the locals what they want.
        And it so happened in international law that the lands do not belong to the people who live there, but belong to the state to which they were legally controlled at the time of the collapse of the USSR.
        There is also the right to self-determination, but everything is ambiguous there and territorial integrity is primary.
        Since international law remains controversial, the parties will interpret it differently.
        Considering that there is nothing in the agreement about the status of Karabakh, it is too early to talk about the end of the conflict. This is just a cessation of hostilities. The final urigulation does not even smell.
        1. MstislavHrabr
          MstislavHrabr 13 November 2020 02: 01
          +1
          The Armenians must - drive out Pashinyan; - after that, it takes a very long time to think about how and when to withdraw their troops (and take their time, to accumulate strength), a small violation of the agreement will not lead to its cancellation, and the Russians should get into the position and understand that the new president (who has a good relationship with the Russian Federation ) must figure it out, get up to speed ...; The Russians should not only ensure the protection of civilians in Karabakh and the movement of its citizens from one part of Azerbaijan to another, but ... Take this movement itself under strict control (what if terrorists are coming there, bringing drugs and weapons (I think the Armenians will not mind). .. The mandate of a peacemaker is very extensive ... There is no need to be afraid to take on a lot of power, then there will be no need to be afraid that you will not be respected and will not be reckoned with ...
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 12 November 2020 06: 03
    +7
    Peace has been brought to the long-suffering land of Artsakh today.
    ... More like a truce ..
    1. Lexus
      Lexus 12 November 2020 06: 10
      +5
      Alexey hi,
      timeout between rounds.
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 12 November 2020 06: 37
        +6
        hi Let's see how the Turkish-Azerbaijani relations will develop ...
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 12 November 2020 16: 29
          +3
          Lesh, while their relationship does not affect the interests of Russia, I am PURPLE.
          Now, like 100 years, they are not breathing evenly towards the Caucasus: the Americans, the same Turks, and who else knows him. God forbid, that we have a blaze, but it may well
    2. mat-vey
      mat-vey 12 November 2020 06: 11
      +2
      Quote: parusnik
      Peace has been brought to the long-suffering land of Artsakh today.
      ... More like a truce ..

      Well, until internationalism finally triumphs in the minds of people, it will always be possible to use territorial-national conflicts for war.
    3. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 12 November 2020 10: 08
      +2
      Quote: parusnik
      Peace has been brought to the long-suffering land of Artsakh today.
      ... More like a truce ..

      They say Aliyev has a brilliant education, but this did not prevent him from doing something stupid - to take Karabakh. He does not understand his national pride that Karabakh will not reconcile, that there will be constant outbreaks of violence between Armenians and Azerbaijanis. And no peacekeeping forces can do anything. Yes, they will not allow a new war to flare up, but there will be partisanship. Aliyev would have acted wiser by granting autonomy to Karabakh and would not recommend his people to go there under any pretext. Only a rigid dividing line between Armenians and Azerbaijanis can keep the peace in that region. And if it so happened that the majority of Armenians in Karabakh, then the Azerbaijanis should come to terms with this and let Karabakh "sail under their own sails." The Georgians must understand and accept the same with regard to Abkhazia and Ossetia. Only understanding and accepting these realities can bring peace to these regions.
      1. icant007
        icant007 12 November 2020 11: 47
        +6
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Aliyev would have acted wiser by granting autonomy to Karabakh and would not recommend his people to go there under any pretext.


        So he offered them the broadest autonomy. But the Armenians only needed independence, what they fought for, they ran into it.
        1. Sergey Oreshin
          Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 13: 23
          +4
          Ilham, or did Heydar offer autonomy? When exactly?
          In November 1991, the Supreme Council of Azerbaijan adopted a resolution on the liquidation of the autonomy of the NKAO
          1. icant007
            icant007 12 November 2020 15: 04
            0
            Quote: Sergey Oreshin
            Ilham, or did Heydar offer autonomy? When exactly?
            In November 1991, the Supreme Council of Azerbaijan adopted a resolution on the liquidation of the autonomy of the NKAO



            Yes, and that other. Since 1994, in the XNUMXs. And until recently (before the hostilities), Ilham Aliyev talked about autonomy.
            By November 1991, Moscow dropped the "Karabakh issue". There was no time for diplomacy.
            1. Sergey Oreshin
              Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 15: 40
              +2
              The issue of the return of Azerbaijani refugees (17-20% of the population of the NKAO before the war) was still very acute there (and still is). How they would get along with the Armenians there and how they would be reconciled there is a rhetorical question, as they say.
              1. icant007
                icant007 12 November 2020 17: 49
                -1
                Quote: Sergey Oreshin
                The issue of the return of Azerbaijani refugees (17-20% of the population of the NKAO before the war) was still very acute there (and still is).


                I agree. And not so much refugees from Karabakh, as from 7 adjacent regions.
              2. MstislavHrabr
                MstislavHrabr 13 November 2020 02: 05
                0
                And now, of course, everything will be peaceful when they start returning ...
                1. Sergey Oreshin
                  Sergey Oreshin 13 November 2020 10: 35
                  0
                  Alas, Armenian refugees will appear (or rather, have already appeared) ...
            2. The comment was deleted.
      2. ANB
        ANB 12 November 2020 16: 14
        0
        ... Aliyev would have acted wiser by granting autonomy to Karabakh

        So he granted autonomy. The agreement says - autonomy within Azerbaijan.
        Nicely done.
        Aliyev took the districts.
        De facto gave Karabakh to Russia, de jure also took it.
        Well, Turkey got nothing.
        I didn't, I didn't :)
        Moreover, the Turks received UAVs.
      3. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 12 November 2020 20: 51
        +4
        Colleague Krasnoyarsk, this is the ideal, but put yourself in Aliyev's place, a sense of national resentment, and eastern men are hot-tempered, Turkey is constantly stirring up discontent. And then Pashinyan started playing cool.
        It seems to me that Pashinyan deliberately provoked Azerbaijan: it was beneficial for him to distract the people from social problems.
        Remember how in 1904 they hoped for a "small victorious war" to divert the attention of the people? Naturally this is cynical, but politicians are cynical. I read somewhere that Machiavelli said: "Politics is taking advantage of people's suffering." Most likely this is not an exact quote, but the meaning is this.
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 12 November 2020 21: 07
          +2
          Quote: Astra wild2
          and eastern men are hot-tempered,

          I am a northern man, but also hot-tempered. But that doesn't give me the right not to think.
          Quote: Astra wild2

          It seems to me that Pashinyan deliberately provoked Azerbaijan: it was beneficial for him to distract the people from social problems.

          I am not talking about that. I'm talking about the results of the war. 1. Do not take NK. Provide NK with the widest possible autonomy. 2. Azerbaijanis should not be allowed to reside there. 3 Provide a corridor to Armenia. In return, get a corridor to Nakhichevan from Armenia.
          1. and 2. - this is so that there is no mutual carnage. 3. and 4. to establish normal interstate relations between neighbors. This is if Aliyev really wants peace in the region. And the authority of Aliyev in this case will not suffer and the Armenians will be satisfied with this result of the war.
          1. Astra wild2
            Astra wild2 13 November 2020 13: 00
            +2
            I am afraid that Aliyev's days will be numbered: he will immediately be found and will remember all the imaginary and real tricks. They now have a "war party" is strong
            Perhaps Turkey will not like Aliyev's compliance, and Ankara's word is weighty there
      4. Kruglov
        Kruglov 14 November 2020 05: 33
        0
        In principle, it is not bad for us, the persistence of constant tension and territorial claims between Ar and Az. At least it guarantees not joining NATO, neither one nor the other, until the issue is finally resolved. Cynically? Prudent? Yes! Let it be.
  5. saigon
    saigon 12 November 2020 06: 13
    11
    The name Karabakh does not in any way concern the nomads of the Mongols, it is a Turkic name. In Mongolian, the black garden is Har Tsetserleg.
    Caucasian Albania was somewhat earlier and the Arabs and Seljuks had completely different time frames.
    1. icant007
      icant007 12 November 2020 15: 38
      0
      By the way, linguists believe that the Turkic "kara" can also be translated in the meaning of "big". Hence Karabakh is a large garden.
  6. Konnick
    Konnick 12 November 2020 06: 23
    +7
    Whose Karabakh one lady was trying to find out, her name was Galina Starovoitova. I consider her the instigator of the modern conflict, as well as the so-called Karabakh committee.
  7. Olgovich
    Olgovich 12 November 2020 07: 55
    -9
    Like other peoples of the Caucasus, the inhabitants of Artsakh, which ended up in the Karabakh Khanate, found their salvation in the Russian Empire, under whose scepter they were accepted in 1805.

    Here is the answer - to whom Karabakh should belong, so that there are no wars.

    An end to the bloody mess in the Caucasus was put by the arrival of the 11th Army of the Red Army, which had before that smashed the last parts of Denikin.

    What is the "end"? The author hasn't looked out the window for thirty years? This thirty-year slaughter is the result of the "victory" of the Reds over Russia and the separation of Russian Karabakh, to please the enemy of Russia Turkey, from Russia.

    Hence the massacre in Novorossia, Ostia, Abkhazia, criminally distributed by the same clever men, to anyone, but not Russia, in which there were no wars there.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 12 November 2020 08: 26
      12
      Quote: Olgovich
      only not Russia, under which there were no wars.

      We should remember Persia and Griboyedov, for whose murder these territories were given to Russia ...

      Quote: Olgovich
      ... the result of the "victory" of the Reds over Russia

      Russia, after it was destroyed by the interim government, was rescued by the tsarist officers and generals, who trained the Red commanders in military affairs. Yes, under the red banner, because there was no other one capable of restoring Russia. All these Yudenichs, Denikins, etc. were supported by the West, and their plans did not include raising a competitor for themselves. According to their plans, Russia was to be destroyed. For this, the Whites fought against the Reds, incl. and the Second World War on the side of the Nazis.

      The result of the victory of the Reds is the Stalinist USSR, whose economy, in a very short time, became the first in the world. If the whites had won, then the "saints of the 90s" would have come much earlier, there would not have been Russia on the map of the World as a single state-civilization.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 12 November 2020 10: 10
        -15 qualifying.
        Quote: Boris55
        We should remember Persia and Griboyedov, for whose murder these territories were given to Russia.

        not necessary, for there is no connection.
        Quote: Boris55
        Russia after it was destroyed by the interim government

        Russia collapsed in oct. 1917-1940gg, established then the boundaries today and we have: learn the history of your country.

        Under Russia, NIKTO did not declare any "independence", all under the Red invaders.
        Quote: Boris55
        Yes, under the red banner, because there was no other one capable of restoring Russia


        You're lying: Russia existed perfectly and fought with the red invaders for 4 years. And there would be no them, and there would be no problems.

        And yes, what is "restored" Russia? This is the one circumcised 5 million km2 "restorers" OGRYZOK, what do we have? Are you really?
        Quote: Boris55
        ... All these Yudenichs, Denikins, etc. were supported by the West, and their plans did not include raising a competitor for themselves.

        Heroes of Russia Yudenichi and Denikin served Russia in all wars with the invaders, in contrast to cowards and traitors who spent time from the wars in Switzerland and were sent to Russia by the invaders
        Quote: Boris55
        For this, the Whites fought against the Reds, incl. and the Second World War on the side of the Nazis.

        red owls of citizens fought on the side of the Nazis for ORDERS more
        Quote: Boris55
        The result of the victory of the Reds is the Stalinist USSR, whose economy, in a very short time, became the first in the world.

        Nope, the result is terrible hunger never seen in the world with multimillion-dollar victims and cannibalism in .... PEACEFUL, exiled millions of robbed peasants. incl. a million CHILDREN, more than 600 thousand shot in ONE year (nowhere in the world there was such a thing), a demographic CATASTROPHE, an extinct indigenous Russia, destroyed culture and faith.

        and the economy under RUSSIA would have grown by 1941 no less than under the Reds, see the pace of development of Russia.

        Quote: Boris55
        ... If the whites had won, then the "saints of the 90s" would have come much earlier, there would not have been Russia on the map of the World as a single state-civilization.

        what are your "W's" worth? Learn the History of Russia: Russia has grown and exists for a THOUSAND YEARS without any Reds, and only with them suffered SUCH losses that it did not bear under any conquerors and never, having come to the brink of extinction.
        It's just a FACT.
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 12 November 2020 10: 47
          +7
          Quote: Olgovich
          not necessary, for there is no connection.

          No matter what ?! If Persia had not transferred these territories to us, then today it would be their problem, and so - we are solving it.

          Quote: Olgovich
          Russia collapsed in Oct. 1917

          No. The beginning was laid in February 1917!
          "There is such a party!" - a catch phrase uttered by V.I.Lenin on June 4 (17), 1917 at the First All-Russian Congress of Soviets in response to the thesis of the Menshevik I.G. Tsereteli that everything was lost, Russia no longer exists and there is no one to save it.

          Quote: Olgovich
          And yes, what is "restored" Russia?

          The one who got rid of the invasion of the British, Germans, French, Turks, Japanese, Americans. This is the country the interim government left us:



          Quote: Olgovich
          ... more than 600 thousand shot in ONE year ...

          Separate the cutlets from the flies. I spoke about the time of Stalin. You are trying to attribute the genocide committed by the Trotskyists against the Russian people to the Bolsheviks. Will not work!



          In the note, the results from 1921, when Stalin was not yet in power, which means that under Stalin there were no repressions - there were those convicted of banditry, Bandera, green brothers, policemen and other traitors. The number of Bolsheviks in the party only in 1924 exceeded the number of Trotskyists, but by that time the Trotskyists had already occupied all the key posts in power ... hence the 38th.

          Quote: Olgovich
          what are your "W's" worth?

          And yours: "and the economy has grown under RUSSIA would by 1941 at least "?

          The topic is not the same. Let's end on this and everyone will remain unconvinced.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 12 November 2020 12: 11
            -13 qualifying.
            Quote: Boris55
            so - we solve it.

            You, "fixers", led to wild bloodshed in Transnistria, Odessa, Ossetia, etc., and the expulsion of Russians from everywhere
            Quote: Boris55
            No. The beginning was laid in February 1917!

            Facts on the table! ALL independence-only AFTER the thief and on the basis of ITS criminal stupid decrees.
            Quote: Boris55
            There is such a party! "- a catch phrase uttered by V. I. Lenin on June 4 (17), 1917 at the First All-Russian Congress of Soviets in response to the thesis of the Menshevik I. G. Tsereteli that everything is lost, Russia no longer exists and there is no one to rescue.

            They had to send him to the Napoleons, but they did not catch him ...
            Quote: Boris55
            The one who got rid of the invasion of the British, Germans, French, Turks, Japanese, Americans. This is the country the interim government left us:

            ONCE AGAIN: WHAT did you .... "restore" and WHAT did this have to do with ... RUSSIA?
            You have arranged an OGRYZOK from Russia-see. in the WINDOW, finally !.

            You invaded Russia, where there was no c. wars, no interventions are all YOUR "achievements" and the result of the seizure of power
            Quote: Boris55
            Separate the cutlets from the flies. I spoke about the time of Stalin. You are trying to attribute the genocide committed by the Trotskyists against the Russian people to the Bolsheviks. Will not work!

            Listen, you are in your varieties and poke around, and I disdain to carry out searches in your "isms". And yes: 08.37-08.38 is the year when more than 600 thousand were shot? Count on a day, yeah, and at the same time name the country where STILL this happened, like the millions who died of hunger with cannibalism and the exiled CHILDREN in peacetime.
            Quote: Boris55
            In the note, the results from 1921, when Stalin was not yet in power, which means that under Stalin there were no repressions - there were those convicted of banditry, Bandera, green brothers, policemen and other traitors.

            PAVLOV's help you to study
            Quote: Boris55
            hence the 38th.

            Party of criminals according to owls. statistics: if the crime rate in the country was less than 37% in 38-1, then in the VKPB.... more than 50%!
            Quote: Boris55
            And yours: "and the economy under RUSSIA would have grown by 1941 at least"?

            See growth rates before VOR. If it were not for your robbery to destroy the country with the destruction of everything in 17-22 years, then 1917-1931 the country would go forward, and not spend them only on the restoration of what you destroyed. These are just FACTS.
            1. Kapral Alphych
              Kapral Alphych 12 November 2020 16: 30
              +3
              led to wild bloodshed in Transnistria, Odessa, Ossetia, etc., and the expulsion of Russians from everywhere

              You can go from the opposite and argue that if in the 90s the tsarist shortages had not seized power, then there would not have been all the events you listed.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 12 November 2020 20: 43
                -5
                Quote: Kapral Alphich
                You can go from the opposite and argue that if in the 90s the tsarist shortages had not seized power, then there would not have been all the events you listed.


                You should also learn the concept of "cause-and-effect relationships" so as not to talk nonsense.

                stupid traitors staged "Ukraine", moldova "on the RUSSIAN lands in 1917-1940, which was the reason for the shed Russian blood there in 1991-2020.

                And yes, "tsar's nedobitki" are the first secretaries CC Kppssy Gorbachaev, Kravchuk, Gross, etc.? lol laughing
          2. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 14 November 2020 10: 12
            0
            Quote: Boris55

            In the note, the results from 1921, when Stalin was not yet in power,

            The "document" you submitted is linden.
            In nature, there was no such body as - "NKVD troika"
        2. icant007
          icant007 12 November 2020 17: 55
          +2
          Quote: Olgovich
          and the economy under RUSSIA would have grown by 1941 no less than under the Reds, see the pace of development of Russia.


          As my teacher used to say "unconscious extrapolation of naivety").

          It is unlikely that tsarist Russia would have been able to pull off Stalin's industrialization.
          A new Peter I would be needed.

          And the peasants also went hungry under tsarism. That did not prevent to continue to drive grain for export.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 12 November 2020 20: 48
            -6
            Quote: icant007
            As my teacher used to say "unconscious extrapolation of naivety").

            I told you and, apparently, deservedly, since you carry
            this nonsense:
            Quote: icant007
            It is unlikely that tsarist Russia would have been able to pull off Stalin's industrialization.

            She led RUSSIAN industrialization with the same results, but without savage victims, robberies, lack of freedom and the catastrophe of the people.
            Quote: icant007
            And the peasants also went hungry under tsarism. That did not prevent to continue to drive grain for export.

            Do not be nonsense: such WILD famines with multimillion victims and massive HUMANITY in peacetime were not the same as in Russia never before, but in the world in general, even in Africa, we are already silent about Europe in 20 meca ...
            1. icant007
              icant007 13 November 2020 07: 19
              +2
              What an unrestrained language you are, my friend, nonsense, nonsense. Are you offended by life? )))
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 13 November 2020 08: 06
                -3
                Quote: icant007
                What an unrestrained language you are, my friend, nonsense, nonsense. Are you offended by life? )))

                Give a different definition of the fabulous nonsense you're talking about, like hunger.
                1. icant007
                  icant007 13 November 2020 10: 31
                  +2
                  And I do not argue about the extent of the famine. I say that under tsarism there were a lot of problems of its own, and Russia should not be idealized in those years.
                  It's just that your belief in the infallibility of tsarist Russia is akin to the "Poklonskaya syndrome" in relation to Nicholas II)))
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 13 November 2020 11: 05
                    -2
                    Quote: icant007
                    And I do not argue about the extent of the famine. I say that under tsarism there were a lot of problems of its own, and Russia should not be idealized in those years.

                    And I mean that what you called "hunger" in Russia was considered paradise under the next regime.

                    Naturally, there were a lot of problems in Russia. But compared to the CATASTROPHE that erupted in the country further, these are trifles.
                    Quote: icant007
                    It's just that your belief in the infallibility of tsarist Russia is akin to the "Poklonskaya syndrome" in relation to Nicholas II)))

                    faith is an irrational concept.
                    We're talking about FACTS
        3. Flooding
          Flooding 12 November 2020 19: 43
          +5
          It is impossible to walk calmly past spitting on the history of the home country
          Quote: Olgovich
          red owls of citizens fought on the side of the Nazis for ORDERS more

          Two orders are 100
          So how many orders of magnitude?
          Quote: Olgovich
          and the economy under RUSSIA has grown would by 1941 no less than with the Reds

          Quote: Olgovich
          what are your "W's" worth?

          Yours, of course, are worth a lot.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 12 November 2020 20: 56
            -1
            Quote: Flood
            It is impossible to walk calmly past spitting on the history of the home country
            Quote: Olgovich
            red owls of citizens fought on the side of the Nazis for ORDERS more

            Really pricks eyes?

            Then more to you: NEVER in the history of Russia has there been so many TRAITORS who fought on the side of the enemy, as under your rule: see WWII, OV 1812, etc., etc.
            Quote: Flood
            Yours, of course, are worth a lot.

            Certainly. There is a set rate of development to VOR. And "would", only because you did not give Russia a chance.
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 12 November 2020 21: 55
              +3
              Quote: Olgovich
              Really pricks eyes?

              What is there where it hurts me not.
              You did not answer for your words about "orders of magnitude more".
              Where is your truth?
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 13 November 2020 08: 19
                -4
                Quote: Flood

                What is there where it hurts me not.

                I wrote to YOU: didn't you notice? So it's about your eyes
                Quote: Flood
                You did not answer for your words about "orders of magnitude more".
                Where is your truth?

                MILLION citizens of the USSR fought on the side of the Nazis. There are tens of thousands of emigrants. Is it getting there?
                Quote: Flood
                First, unconditionality cannot be in doubt by definition. Your assertion is not only dubious, but also unprovable.

                Everything has long been proven, you are scared and too lazy to know this
                Quote: Flood
                Secondly, for me there are no "ours" and "yours". I don’t divide Russians.

                Where are the "gussky"? Movshevichs, apfelbaums, shvili, or blanks who have lived beyond the border for more than half of their lives? Ulyanov did not know Russia at all, he was nowhere and had never been in it. Unlike England, Switzerland, France, Italy, where he has been dozens of times.
                Quote: Flood
                There is still a civil war in your head.

                It ended long ago with the complete defeat of the Reds. But your red ones are still "fighting" lol
                1. Flooding
                  Flooding 13 November 2020 08: 38
                  +4
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  MILLION citizens of the USSR fought on the side of the Nazis. There are tens of thousands of emigrants. Is it getting there?

                  Got it.
                  That your words should not be taken seriously.
                  They are, to put it mildly, not true.
                  There are "tens of thousands" of emigrants. I will not even ask you to confirm your words with something weighty. I already understand that it is useless to count on this.
                  Let's just turn to the elementary beginnings of mathematics.
                  Tens of thousands, multiplied by a hundred, suddenly turn into millions for you.
                  You may not respect yourself.
                  But stop disrespecting your opponents.
                2. Flooding
                  Flooding 13 November 2020 08: 45
                  +4
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Where are the "gussky"? Movshevichs, apfelbaums, shvili, or blanks who have lived beyond the border for more than half of their lives? Ulyanov did not know Russia at all, he was nowhere and had never been in it. Unlike England, Switzerland, France, Italy, where he has been dozens of times.

                  They did not serve in the ranks of the Red Army and shed their blood.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  It ended long ago with the complete defeat of the Reds.

                  The Reds won the worst war in human history.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  But your red ones are still "fighting"

                  Don't talk nonsense. I am not at war with anyone, unlike you. All the more so with history. Cannonballs ring out in your head.
                3. Flooding
                  Flooding 13 November 2020 08: 48
                  +3
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Everything has long been proven, you are scared and too lazy to know this

                  Is this classified information available to only a few?
                  Why so many letters when it is enough to give just a link to your evidence.
                  You are our lazy, share.
            2. Flooding
              Flooding 12 November 2020 22: 00
              +2
              Quote: Olgovich
              Certainly. There is a set rate of development to VOR. And "would", only because you did not give Russia a chance.

              There are so many lies in two lines.
              First, unconditionality cannot be in doubt by definition. Your assertion is not only dubious, but also unprovable.
              Secondly, for me there are no "ours" and "yours". I don’t divide Russians. History separated them, that's enough for me. But your behavior is very symptomatic and revealing. There is still a civil war in your head.
        4. AllXVahhaB
          AllXVahhaB 12 November 2020 21: 01
          +6
          Quote: Olgovich
          Under Russia, NIKTO did not declare any "independence", all under the Red invaders.

          Yeah. And there were no Polish uprisings, despite the fact that Poland and its own parliament had its own constitution. Finland, in general, lived according to its own calendar. And on the territory of the Khiva, Bukhara and Kokand khanates, the free (without special permission) entry of non-believers (Christians) was prohibited. RI was a loose, amorphous formation that began to crumble immediately after the February revolution. It was the Bolsheviks who collected back almost all the lands and brought them, more / less to one denominator ...
          Quote: Olgovich
          And yes, what is "restored" Russia? Is this the one cut by 5 million km2 by OGRYZOK "restorers" that we have? Are you really?

          If it were not for the Bolsheviks, after the First World War, Russia would have faced the fate of the British and Austro-Hungarian empires ...
          Quote: Olgovich
          Heroes of Russia Yudenichi and Denikin served Russia in all wars with the invaders, in contrast to cowards and traitors who spent time from the wars in Switzerland and were sent to Russia by the invaders

          "In all" is it in the Russian-Japanese and the First World War? And who was the invaders there? By the way, both wars were successfully pissed away. In the First World War, generally a disgrace! Germany, unlike VM2, fought on two fronts from the very beginning, Russia, in general, was not considered a military rival and kept the main combat-ready units in the west. Despite this she beat RI "in the tail and mane." These "heroes of Russia" safely and civil, pissed away the workers! But if they had won, Russia would have ceased to exist in the 20s, even within today's borders!
          Quote: Olgovich
          Nope, the result is a terrible famine never seen before in the world with multimillion victims and cannibalism in ... PEACEFUL TIME, exiled millions of robbed peasants. incl. a million CHILDREN, more than 600 thousand shot in ONE year (nowhere in the world there was such a thing), a demographic CATASTROPHE, an extinct indigenous Russia, destroyed culture and faith.

          What's not seen then? And hunger and cannibalism where there were many! Not peasants were exiled, but kulaks. And kulaks are not "strong business executives", kulaks are the then analogue of modern Tsapkov! Which now, without the communists, have blossomed again! And in what year were 600 thousand shot? Probably 37-38. So these manipulations have long been taken apart by the bones ...
          What culture was destroyed? Almost 80% of the illiterate is culture or what? Yes, the people, in the mass, only with Soviet education learned who Pushkin, Lermontov, Dostoevsky, Gogol and others like them were ...
          Faith destroyed? Where is Vera? As soon as obligatory prayer services were canceled at the front after February 1917, almost 85% of the soldiers stopped attending them. And this is at the front !!! Where religiosity, in connection with the proximity of death, only intensifies! And who destroyed the churches? Aliens? No, yesterday's parishioners. And it’s okay, we went to dance clubs made of them ... And it was the same with mosques! And, oddly enough, no martyrs, no terrorist attacks were carried out, as now ...
          Quote: Olgovich
          and the economy under RUSSIA would have grown by 1941 no less than under the Reds, see the pace of development of Russia.

          History does not tolerate the subjunctive mood! What happened by 1914? Even rifles, in the required quantity, could not be produced by themselves; they ordered one and a half million mosinos in the USA! Who owned most of the industry before the Revolution? Yes, to whom and now - foreigners! And always catching up, after another defeat, such as the Crimean or Japanese wars, the country! And what happened under the Bolsheviks? The first nuclear power plant, the first man in space! Was there anything like that in pre-revolutionary Russia? That we would at least be the first in the world in something? In industry, in science? Yes, we are still living the Stalinist legacy - we are competitively capable only in those areas that were laid with it - the atom, space, the military-industrial complex ...
          Quote: Olgovich
          what are your "W's" worth? Learn the History of Russia: Russia has grown and exists for a THOUSAND YEARS without any Reds, and only with them suffered SUCH losses that it did not bear under any conquerors and never, having come to the brink of extinction.
          It's just a FACT.

          You will filter your "BY" about Russia by 41! And learn History, not tales, Okay, at least about Great Tartary, don't push it! And then there are a lot of such obscurantists! Russia in the reign of Nicholas II has sunk to a full ass! There was only one way out of it - repeating the path of Austria-Hungary and Britain. But the Bolsheviks happened! And they destroyed the Country, if you don’t remember, just the "patriots-crushers" under the slogan - ENOUGH TO FEED THE OUTSIDE! I myself am from Kazakhstan, my ancestors Semirechensk Cossacks, came to Russia in 1995 and I remember how the local Russians treated the Russians who came ...
          And the demographic catastrophe is not from the communists, but from the fact that you do not want to reproduce! How many children do you personally have?
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 November 2020 10: 05
            -4
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            Yeah. And there were no Polish uprisings, despite the fact that Poland and its own parliament had its own constitution.

            ONCE AGAIN, if it didn't come from the first:
            Quote: Olgovich
            Under Russia, NIKTO did not declare any "independence", all under the Red invaders.
            Those. until October 1917. Have you refuted this statement? NO!
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            It was the Bolsheviks who collected back almost all the lands and brought them, more / less to one denominator ...

            Was Russia, and collected .... WHAT? What relation it had to Russia, from which the bandits cut off Odessa, Uralsk, Gomel, etc., etc. RUSSIAN cities and towns? belay
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            What's not seen then? And hunger and cannibalism where there were many!

            You lie this , as in 32-33, we never had, neither in the world, nor, moreover, in Russia
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            Not peasants were exiled, but kulaks.

            Bring decisions of the COURTS about the punishment and robbery of the peasants. Or until now it will not reach you, on the basis of which only property is taken away and forced links / work are made.?

            And show the decisions of the courts on the exile of a MILLION children (each separately).

            And yes, I think you are a tsap and that you need to take away your home, car, money and send in January to fresh air in a chaise made of spruce branches to the north of the Narym Territory.
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            in what year 600 thousand were shot? Probably 37-38

            Help PAVLOV to you, yes.
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            What culture was destroyed? Almost 80% of the illiterate is culture or what? Yes, the people, in the mass, only with Soviet education learned who Pushkin, Lermontov, Dostoevsky, Gogol and others like them were ...

            You absolutely have no conscience: TENS OF THOUSANDS of cultural monuments of the Russian people in Moscow (including the Kremlin), St. Petersburg, Suzdal, Vladimir, Petrozavodsk, Siberia, etc. have been destroyed, millions of paintings, frescoes, icons, books, etc., have been burned by animals. urinated on plates with the names of the Heroes of Plevna

            conscientious "education" slowed down education million people: if before the thief, 5-8 thousand schools were introduced a year, then until 1927, no schools were built.
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            Faith destroyed? Where is Vera?

            As soon as your Bolsheviks disappeared, the temples were immediately reborn.
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            They could not even produce rifles in the required quantity,

            There were no orders - as many were ordered, so many were produced
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            And what happened under the Bolsheviks? The first nuclear power plant, the first man in space!

            This is the legacy of RUSSIA, hack it on your forehead: ALL atomic and space scientists grew up and were brought up exclusively in RUSSIAN IMPERIAL UNIVERSITIES: Vernadsky, Zhukovsky, Khlopin, Mysovsky, Ioffe, Kurchatovs, Korolev, Tupolev, etc., etc.

            You didn’t bring ANYTHING from the doorman - there were some tupari.
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            That we would at least be the first in the world in something? In industry, in science?

            The world's first telecast, the first radio, the world's first diesel-electric ship, the world's first diesel submarine powered by Russian diesels, the world's first oil-powered diesel engine, the world's largest fleet of motor ships, the world leader in polar aviation (the first in world flight above the Arctic Circle), naval aviation, the world's first sailing under ice, the world's first railroad beyond the Arctic Circle, etc.
            You, I see, do not want to know anything at all out of hatred for your country?
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            Yes, we still live the Stalinist legacy

            Your legacy is the RUSSIAN cross and the borders of Russia of the 17th century. empty of Russian people Russia
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            You will filter your "BY" about Russia by 41!

            March to school!
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            Russia in the reign of Nicholas II has sunk to a full ass!

            ass is yours by 1991 And Russia Nicholas is an unattainable fairy tale, for the development and prosperity of the Russian people.
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            I myself am from Kazakhstan, my ancestors Semirechensk Cossacks, came to Russia in 1995

            You are a traitor, a conscience of national politics, you have left her beloved brainchild.

            And do not disgrace the high rank of the Cossack-Cossacks fought against the bandits who made a desert from Uralsk and from the Cossack lands
            Quote: AllXVahhaB
            And the demographic catastrophe is not from the communists

            Yeah, they ruled, but others are to blame. 200 abortions on your lump of conscience - ANYWHERE in the world has never happened.
            1. AllXVahhaB
              AllXVahhaB 13 November 2020 12: 24
              +2
              Quote: Olgovich
              Those. until October 1917. Have you refuted this statement? NO!

              He asks himself, answers himself, ascribes his own words, refutes them himself ... The diagnosis, however ... What were all the Polish uprisings about? Not about independence? And about what then ??? And they were not under the Bolsheviks ... Enough to carry crap!
              Quote: Olgovich
              Was Russia, and collected .... WHAT? WHAT did this have to do with Russia, from which the bandits cut off Odessa, Uralsk, Gomel, etc. RUSSIAN cities and villages?

              Gathered the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics! Without any Bukhara, Khiva and other khanates and forbidden Russian territories. And everywhere they spoke Russian and all the children studied in Russian schools! Already in my childhood, most of the Kazakh children in the cities did not know the Kazakh language. Kazakh was the language of the auls, just as Ukrainian was the language of farms. Another generation \ two urbanization and ... And what happened during the RI? And what is happening now when the USSR was destroyed under the slogans of crisp bakery? Do I understand correctly that you welcome the collapse of the USSR?
              Quote: Olgovich
              You are lying, such as in 32-33, we never had, neither in the world, nor, even more so, in Russia

              You read your Solzhenitsyn: "200 years together" there is a lot about hunger in Ingushetia, and even the reasons and culprits are given! I hope that the world for you is not only Europe and not only in the second half of the twentieth century? So I can cite a bunch of examples from all over the world from different historical periods, compared to which the famine of the 20s and 30s in the USSR is like flowers ...
              Quote: Olgovich
              Give the decisions of the COURTS on punishment and robbery of peasants. Or until now it will not reach you, on the basis of which only property is taken away and forced links / work are made.?
              And show the decisions of the courts on the exile of a MILLION children (each separately).

              Just the same, the decisions of the Soviet courts are! But I shouldn't show them to you. But there are no court decisions about hundreds of peasant uprisings before the revolution. They were simply destroyed by army units! Or do you not know? You talked about studying your native history here ...
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Olgovich
                Olgovich 13 November 2020 13: 35
                -3
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                What were all the Polish uprisings about? Not about independence?

                No. The third time for a tanker: NOBODY has announced any Independences before the THIEF !!! Got it, didn't it?
                These are FACTS, your ignorance is amazing!
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                Gathered the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics!

                What relation it had to RUSSIA, from which the criminals cut off RUSSIANS Odessa, Mariupol, Nikolaev, Vitebsk and Uralsky pr, where from Russians were raised by NERUS, for the hundredth time I ask? Are you pretending?
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                And everywhere they spoke Russian and all the children studied in Russian schools!

                Of the 2700 Russian schools by 1933, 20 were left in the Donbass. the killer of everything Russian.

                And yes, you brought up from the Russian-so-called. "Ukrainians". Forgot?
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                And what happened with RI?

                In RI there were Russian schools and the Russian language in my RUSSIAN Odessa, and the Odessa residents were proud that they-citizens of Russia and that they are Russian. !
                What have YOU done there?
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                You read your Solzhenitsyn: "200 years together" there is a lot about hunger in Ingushetia, and even the reasons and culprits are given! I hope that the world for you is not only Europe and not only in the second half of the twentieth century? So I can cite a bunch of examples from all over the world from different historical periods, compared to which the famine of the 20s and 30s in the USSR is like flowers ...

                You lie, and this is disgusting and criminal to the MEMORY of the fallen: NO, and there was no such thing in the world in peacetime, as with you in 1932-33:
                reported by the NKVD: Stanitsa Dolzhanskaya - 22 / II Commission found that Tr. G **** had eaten the corpse of its dead sister

                In the same village, it was established that group D *** remained after the death of his father and mother with young sisters and brothersIt was the meat of brothers and sisters who died of starvation.

                St. Novo-Scherbinovskaya. In the 3rd collective farm brigade, wife E *** hacked to death and "ate her 3-year-old child,

                There are thousands of such docks! Do you hear ?!
                Quote: AllXVahhaB

                Just the same, the decisions of the Soviet courts are! Only I shouldn't show them to you.

                You must, a liar, otherwise your cries are zero without a wand: ON THE TABLE courts of exiled million peasants and a million exiled CHILDREN!
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                But there are no court decisions about hundreds of peasant uprisings before the revolution. They were simply destroyed by army units! Or do you not know?
                dozens of THOUSANDS (13745) peasant uprisings suppressed YOU, with weapons and atrocities only in 1930,.
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                Under the USSR, monuments were on the balance of the state! And their number is simply absurd - from the house of some merchant with an architectural landmark

                BEAST blew up the most valuable architectural monuments of the KREMLIN (TEACH YOURSELF!), Moscow (Sukharev Tower, Pozharsky Cathedral, etc.), Suzdal, Vladimir, Kostroma Kremlin and thousands of others. Shame on you who don't know this.

                YOU blew up, plundered, outraged the monuments and graves of the Russian Heroes Bagration, Pozharskomk, Minin, Nakhimov, Vorontsov, Istomin. and so on and so forth. There is absolutely no conscience!
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                Well, you do not carry complete crap! In SEVERAL YEARS the Bolsheviks did what RI

                Not ONE school before 1927 - not built - is a FACT. In Russia -8 thousand per year!
                Chop on your forehead!
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                Where???

                Learn:
                As of 1988, the Russian Orthodox Church had 6893 parishes
                For thirty years, the total number of churches of the Moscow Patriarchate increased by almost 32 thousand and now, according to the statistics of the Russian Orthodox Church, it reaches 38 649 communities

                almost 6 times!
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                What are the Imperial Universities ???

                first of all, these are the Imperial MVTU and the St. Petersburg Imperial Polytechnic. And ALL-Kurchatovs, Korolev studied in THEM, with RUSSIAN IPERSK teachers. For among yours there were only Tebils and not a single scientist-teacher.
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                My legacy that controlled half the globe!

                You are funnyfull of BANKS and losers lol
                Quote: AllXVahhaB
                My great-grandfather in 1919 in Verny, with his comrades, organized a council of Cossack deputies!

                So, return to Almaty, to what YOU have created in the RUSSIAN lands. March into your creation and enjoy it!

                Ps I have a lot of grandchildren for a long time yes
                1. Neo matrix
                  Neo matrix 15 November 2020 21: 22
                  +3
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  200 abortions on your lump of conscience, ANYWHERE in the world has never happened.


                  The lying Olga troll 200 million abortions on the conscience of the parents of these children, and no one else. NOBODY FORCED ABORTION, it is the parents' choice and their responsibility.
                  For 30 years the communists have not been in power - the number of abortions has not decreased, the problem is not in the communists.
                  There have always been abortions, and under tsarism there were no less of them. During the Soviet era, from 1936 to 1955, abortion was prohibited by law.
                  But the prohibition of abortion, and after and before the revolution, abortions did not stop - they still happened, only illegally.
                  Under tsarism, 70% were illiterate, did not know how to read and write, the average life expectancy was 30 years, the infant mortality rate is one of the highest in Europe, about 4 million per year died before reaching adulthood, this is not counting abortions.
                  Thanks to the communists for saving Russia and the Russian people from illiteracy and a half-starved existence, they introduced an 8-hour working day (under tsarism, 12 hours), winning the First World War (into which the country was drawn by Nikolai2), and the Second World War.
                  During the Soviet period, the population doubled from 150 million to 300 million.
                  And the territory of the USSR was larger than the territory of Ingushetia (in square kilometers).
                  Aviation under tsarism was backward - they could not make their engines normal - they bought French ones.
                  The world leader in aviation - only the USSR became completely domestic production. Tsarism was not capable of this.
                  Wherever there is aviation, there was no tractor industry under Nikolashka, 2/3 of the large industry under him was in the hands of foreigners.
                  All inventions are not the merit of tsarism, but of the Russian people, and these inventions would be many times greater if not only the children of wealthy exploiters, pushing the people into illiteracy, hunger and poverty, were literate.
                  During the Soviet era, the number of university students INCREASED 38 TIMES from 127 thousand (1915) to 4854 thousand (1975).
                  Holodomors under tsarism were frequent and claimed millions of lives, no one kept statistics, tsarism did not care about the people.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 16 November 2020 07: 42
                    -3
                    Quote: Neo Matrix
                    The deceiving Olga troll 2.

                    To deceitful ignorant Russophobes - to hack the following on their foreheads: their "achievements" and their anti-Russian power are: the Russian cross, the first places in the world for ALCOHOLISM, ABORTION, SUICIDE, mass MURDER, DIVORCE, victims of hunger, for the destruction of culture, for immorality, deceit cynicism, hypocrisy, immorality, lack of spirituality, these are millions of abandoned hectares of arable land, meadows, destroyed nature, millions of abandoned houses, the dying heart of Russia Non-Heavenly Land and its drunken village, an outdated backward economy, which is a party of tebils, losers and thieves who have ruined everything: the country, army, people, finance, EVERYTHING and this, yes, the borders of Russia in the 17th century.
                    These are facts.
                    Hack a knot in your nose!
                    1. Neo matrix
                      Neo matrix 18 November 2020 09: 45
                      +2
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      To deceitful ignorant Russophobes - to hack the following on their foreheads: their "achievements" and their anti-Russian power are: the Russian cross, the first places in the world for ALCOHOLISM, ABORTION, SUICIDE, mass MURDER, DIVORCE, victims of hunger, for the destruction of culture, for immorality, deceit cynicism, hypocrisy, immorality, lack of spirituality, these are millions of abandoned hectares of arable land, meadows, destroyed nature, millions of abandoned houses, the dying heart of Russia Non-Heavenly Land and its drunken village, an outdated backward economy, which is a party of tebils, losers and thieves who have ruined everything: the country, army, people, finance, EVERYTHING and this, yes, the borders of Russia in the 17th century.
                      These are facts.

                      The fact that you write "Olgovich" is a lie, not facts.
                      To the lying, ignorant Olga Russophobe troll "Olgovich" I will hack the following on his forehead:
                      1. The Soviet government was not anti-Russian, there was no Russophobia, I was born and finished school in Soviet times, I am a witness.
                      On the contrary - the Russian language, Russian literature were compulsory for study in all schools of the national republics + their national language and national literature.
                      2. There were more victims of famines under the tsarist regime, http://trezvost.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=91&catid=15&Itemid=124
                      3.the consumption of alcohol during the reign of Lenin and Stalin was LOWER than under Nikolashka https://museumlbt.yanao.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/3-1.png, the mess began with Khrushchev, who was then kicked out of leadership, but even under Khrushchev, alcohol consumption is several times less than today
                      4.I repeat, there were no fewer abortions under tsarism, they were illegal, and today, when the communists are not in power, there are no fewer abortions
                      5.In the 20s - 30s, there were more suicides in the USA than in the USSR https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/gusev_a_v/24443462/186385/186385_600.jpg, the rise in suicides began with the anti-Stalinist Khrushchev, but in the world by the number of suicides today is the Russian Federation https://expert.ru/data/public/555335/555498/048_rusrep_17.jpg
                      According to Orthodoxy, to the official figures of suicides, it is necessary to add those who died from drug addiction and alcohol (the sin of drug addiction and alcoholism in Orthodoxy is equated to suicide), in the Russian Federation drug addiction is 300 times more than in the USSR
                      6.Divorce is not a sin, proof is Orthodoxy
                      7. on "mass murders" you did not give a figure, how many are there? Solzhenitsin lied about 100 million, how much will you lie?
                      8.Culture, public morality and morality in the USSR were much higher than under tsarism and than today
                      9. liar olgovsky, in Soviet times there were no "abandoned arable lands and meadows", all the land was cultivated and cattle were grazed on them, in the USSR meat production was more than in the Republic of Ingushetia and in the Russian Federation, today, under the anti-Soviet regime, lands and villages are abandoned
                      10. the Soviet economy was the second in the world after the USA (where there was no war), and was not backward, the communists were the first in the world to enter space, the Volga car was recognized as the best car of the year on the continent in 2
                      Game 11 is the game of the "Olga Trolls"
                      12 thieves came to power in the early 1990s, in the USSR thieves were in prison
                      13.the country was destroyed and pissed off by anti-communist thieves, unfortunately not all of them were sent to the Gulag
                      14.tzarism was immoral and immoral, there was legal prostitution, and from the age of 12 - that is, under Nicholas2 child prostitution was legal

                      You cut a knot on your nose - you are a complete liar Olgovich.
                      On the Internet they write that the "Olga trolls" are paid 15 rubles for a comment,
                      biblical Judas was paid more.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 18 November 2020 15: 47
                        -1
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        The fact that you write "Olgovich" is a lie, not facts.

                        These are FACTS that lying Russofbosting losers are NOT able to refute
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        The Soviet government was not anti-Russian.

                        You lie: the ANTI-Russian comm power CUTTING Russia into Pieces, turning the RUSSIAN cities of Nikolaev into ... MYYYYYKOLAAVY fool am , and Russians there-in ... Ukrainians
                        Got it, no?
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        2. There were more victims of the Holodomors under tsarism, http://trezvost.ru/index.php?

                        Into the tube this RAVEN and there, yes: IN THE WORLD there were more hungers than you did not have,! yes
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        alcohol consumption during the reign of Lenin and Stalin was LOWER than under Nikolashka https://museumlbt.yanao.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/3-1.png, the mess began with Khrushchev, who was later expelled from the leadership, but even under Khrushchev, alcohol consumption is several times less than today

                        Don't lie, with Russia 0,2 l, with your alcoholics, several times more
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        I repeat, there were no less abortions under tsarism, they were illegal, and today, when the communists are not in power

                        Don't lie: YOU were the first in the world to allow abortion, YOU instilled an ugly "abortion" culture, with you they grew up ORDER in Moscow from 1920 to 1936! And abortion, yes. less today. This is with YOU in the USSR abortions were more than ..... taken all over the world!
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        divorce is not a sin

                        This is an INDICATOR rot systems. as well as suicide is everything.

                        hack on the forehead: TEBILOV in schools has become in .... ELEVEN TIMES more by your end than it was at the beginning.
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        ... on "mass murders" you did not give a figure, how many are there? Solzhenitsin lied about 100 million, how much will you lie?

                        Help Pavlov-only 745 PERSONS IN A YEAR, in a peaceful year!

                        More than 10 million victims of hunger with mass cannibalism and corpse eating.

                        A MILLION CHILDREN exiled!

                        And other and other.
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        liar olgovsky, in Soviet times there were no "abandoned arable lands and meadows", all the lands were cultivated and cattle were grazed on them, in the USSR meat production was more than in the Republic of Ingushetia and in the Russian Federation, today, under the anti-Soviet regime, lands and villages are abandoned

                        You lie: already to 1985 HALF MILLION abandoned houses in the Non-Black Soil Region alone, MILLIONS of abandoned hectares of arable land, meadows, pastures-only Non-Black Earth Region, 60 thousand DEAD villages out of 180 thousand in the same place, BREAD-IMPORTED: "Disappearing village of Russia. Non-Black Earth Region in 1960-1980s Lyubov Denisova
                        The killers!
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        the Soviet economy was the 2nd in the world after the USA (where there was no war), and was not backward,

                        Complete failure: for scientific and technological revolution, labor productivity, rearmament, quality, assortment - all over
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        the party is the party of the "olgov trolls"
                        12 thieves came to power in the early 1990s, in the USSR thieves were in prison

                        Those who disappeared "entered" into ... " lol it is ": in the party of losers, losers, inept, ignorant, criminals, bankrupts, who have lost EVERYTHING: the country, the army, the people, finances, ALL-SHE ruled alone and she is responsible for everything.
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        You cut a knot on your nose - you are a complete liar Olgovich.
                        On the Internet they write that the "Olga trolls" are paid 15 rubles for a comment,

                        tie yourself a knot:
                        your moreno... For a long time and forever, the black shadows of losers, bankrupts, losers, impotent people, criminals and pathological LIARS flashed into oblivion on the bright brow of Russia.

                        YOUR and only YOUR regular "subsidies": Russian Cross and borders of 17th century Russia-you did it
                      2. Neo matrix
                        Neo matrix 18 November 2020 23: 07
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        These are FACTS that lying Russofbosting losers are NOT able to refute

                        You are a deceitful russofbosting loser-loser, you write lies, not facts. Which I have denied.
                        You can continue to lie, call black white and white black - in hell you will burn for it, the devils are already waiting for you there.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You're lying: the ANTI-Russian comm power CUTTING Russia into PIECES, turning the RUSSIAN cities of Nikolaev into ... MYYYYYKOLAAVY, and there are Russians ... Ukrainians

                        Not me and you are lying, an olgovskiy troll.
                        The Soviet government was not anti-Russian and did not cut anything. The Russian language was the state language ON THE WHOLE TERRITORY.
                        The borders between republics were only on paper, there was friendship between the peoples of a multinational country.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Into the tube this RAVEN and there, yes: IN THE WORLD there were no greater hunger than with you,

                        Your delirium into a tube. What does the world have to do with it? You wrote a lie, I refuted it. Under tsarism, there were more victims of the Holodomor than in the first years after the transition from tsarism to socialism.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Don't lie, with Russia 0,2 l, with your alcoholics, several times more

                        Why, I’m not lying, but you’re lying. Alcohol consumption during the reign of Lenin and Stalin was LOWER than under Nikolashka.
                        Your numbers are false.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Don't lie: YOU were the first in the world to allow abortion, YOU instilled an ugly "abortion" culture, with you they grew up ORDER in Moscow from 1920 to 1936! And abortion, yes. less today. It was under YOU in the USSR that there were more abortions than ... in the whole world taken,

                        I’m not lying, but you’re lying. Abortions took place before the revolution, and after, when they are prohibited, they become illegal. Today, there are no less abortions, they have not started to fuck less, and the birth rate has fallen, which means there are more abortions.
                        And, I repeat - ABORTION IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PARENTS, the authorities did not force anyone.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        This is an INDICATOR of system rot, like suicide is everything.
                        hack on your forehead: TEBILOV in schools has become ... ELEVEN TIMES more by your end than there was at the beginning

                        I hack you on your forehead: the Lord God resolved divorces in the Old Testament, did you read him dumbass?
                        I repeat, during the years of Lenin-Stalin there were more suicides in the USA, the rise in suicides began with the anti-Stalinist Khrushchev, but the Russian Federation is the world's leader in the number of suicides.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Help Pavlov-only 745 PERSONS IN A YEAR, in a peaceful year!
                        More than 10 million victims of hunger with mass cannibalism and corpse eating.
                        A MILLION CHILDREN exiled!
                        And so on and on

                        You have Pavlov's certificate. During the entire period of repression, less than 1 million people were shot.
                        Under the tsarist regime, there were tens of millions of victims of the Holodomor, 4 million a year died before reaching adulthood; famine in the initial period of Soviet power was a legacy of tsarism. Only thanks to Stalin's industrialization did the famines become a thing of the past.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You're lying: by 1985, HALF A MILLION of abandoned houses in the Non-Black Earth Region alone, MILLIONS of abandoned hectares of arable land, meadows, pastures, only Non-Black Earth, 60 thousand DEAD villages out of 180 thousand in the same place, bread-IMPORTED: "Disappearing village in Russia. 1960-1980- e years Lyubov Denisova
                        The killers!

                        Unlike you, I'm not lying. People left the villages for the cities - this is a natural process, under Nikolashka 85% of the population were peasants, in the modern world so much rural population is not needed, they will not have work, with the growth of rural mechanization ALL OVER THE WORLD, the rural population is decreasing, and the urban population is increasing. Nobody purposefully destroyed the village.
                        Well, let's go to the village, dig the earth, who's stopping you? But you don't want to dig in the ground in the rain and cold, the rest are dumber than you?

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Complete failure: for scientific and technological revolution, labor productivity, rearmament, quality, assortment - all over

                        You have a failure in your head. The economy of the USSR was 80% of the economy of the United States (where there was no war!). Until now, Americans fly into space on Soviet engines. Soviet weapons ensure the security of our country today.
                        Do you know you dumbass that mobile phones and the Internet were invented in the USSR? And much more.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Those who disappeared "entered" into ... "this": into the party of losers, losers, inept, ignorant, criminals, bankrupts, who have lost EVERYTHING: the country, the army, the people, finances, ALL-SHE rules alone and she is responsible for everything

                        Fanatics Nikolashka came to power in the early 1990s and fucked everything up, both the country and the economy.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        tie yourself a knot: yours are no more. For a long time and forever, the black shadows of losers, bankrupts, losers, impotent people, criminals and pathological LIARS flashed into oblivion on the bright brow of Russia.
                        YOUR and only YOUR legitimate "subsidies": the Russian Cross and the borders of the 17th century of Russia, you did it

                        I tie you with a knot, ours have been, are and will be, your tsarism has sunk into oblivion and you unfinished black shadows of losers, bankrupts, losers, impotent people, criminals and pathological LIARS flashed on the bright brow of Russia.
                        It was you, the anti-Soviet, who destroyed the country to the borders of the 17th century.
                      3. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 19 November 2020 10: 51
                        -3
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        You are a deceitful russofbostvuyuschey loser-loser write lies and not facts. Which I have disproved

                        You are, NOT .... lol you can, like your whole party ... (refute). lol
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        The Soviet government was not anti-Russian and did not cut anything

                        WHERE ARE RUSSIANS Odessa, Nikolaev, Uralsk, Verny, Aleksandrovsk, etc., etc., eh? angry

                        YOUR traitors cut off 5 million km2 from Russia, WHERE are they, eh? angry
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        the boundaries between republics were only on paper, there was friendship and

                        Look out the window. disappeared: there are these "paper" borders in naturefool
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        Abortions took place before the revolution, and after, when they are prohibited, they become illegal. Today, there are no less abortions, they have not started to fuck less, and the birth rate has dropped, which means there are more abortions.
                        And, I repeat - ABORTION IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PARENTS, the authorities did not force anyone.

                        There were ORDERS less: from 400 thousand in 1926, abortions increased to 6 million in 1960, with YOUR policy
                        The killers!
                        Today abortions are at times fewer. than in the RSFSR.

                        Abortion is the IMPOTENCE and stupidity of the system, not the parents. Which, by the way. were brought up by the same system: i.e. you admit that she is in nurture turned around lol
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        , during the years of Lenin-Stalin, there were more suicides in the United States, the rise in suicides began with the anti-Stalinist Khrushchev,

                        in varieties and picking himself: it was with YOU!.
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        You have Pavlov's certificate. During the entire period of repression, less than 1 million people were shot.

                        Don't get it AGAIN ?! During the year, in ONE peaceful YEAR, 3/4 MILLION people were shot! WHERE has this been seen in the world under any government, eh?
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        Under tsarism, there were tens of millions of victims of the Holodomor,

                        Stupid LIE, which even the conscientious Tebili "scientists" were embarrassed to write: there is NOT a single document about mass deaths after 1892
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        Only thanks to the Stalinist industrialization the Holodomors became a thing of the past.

                        only then did these terrible famines in the world take place with multimillion deaths and inhuman HORRORS:
                        NKVD, 1933: Yeisk district. Cossack village Dolzhanskaya -gr.G **** consumed trupe of my deceased sister.

                        In the same village, it was established that group D *** remained after the death of his father and mother with young sisters and brothers ate the meat of brothers and sisters who died of starvation.

                        St. Novo-Scherbinovskaya. In the 3rd collective farm brigade, wife E *** sArubila and with "ate her 3-year-old child


                        In the 3rd brigade, wife C *** tasks corpses of children from the cemetery and eats them.

                        Page 3
                        TIKHORETSKY DISTRICT.
                        KUSHCHEVSKY DISTRICT. St. Novo-Pashkovskaya. In the family of an individual farmer, the middle peasant P ** *** died from a prolonged hunger strike: the head of the family P ***, son M *** 14 years old and son G *** 9 years old. Wife P ** - H *** *** carried the corpses of the dead to the cellar, throwing snow.

                        ... By checking the fact, it was established that P ** N *** cut out the meat from the thighs of both legs from the corpse of M ***'s son.

                        You hear. not?! This is the result of your "craftsmen". And the famine was practically uninterrupted from 1917 to 1953: They died in the Civil War, in 1921,22,23,24,25,28,29,31,32,33,36,37,39,46,47-REMEMBER this horror!
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        Nobody purposefully destroyed the village.

                        Yours KILLED, SOLDIER the Russian village, the basis of Russia, with its stupidity, illiteracy, and ichyotism: ANYWHERE in Europe there were hundreds of thousands of abandoned houses, abandoned million hectares of fields and meadows, drowned in the barn. You managed to bring the people to ... coupons and grain purchases abroad - a full pit
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        The economy of the USSR was 80% of the economy of the United States (where there was no war!).

                        и completely I managed it, losing IN EVERYTHING, see above .. Even just FEEDING myself, I could not.
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        I tie you in a knot, ours were, are and will be,

                        NO, thank God: only costumed CLOWNS, for the amusement of the people, remained lol
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        It was you, the anti-Soviet, who destroyed the country to the borders of the 17th century.

                        op-pa: YOU drew them in 1917-40, YOU ruled alone from 1917 to 1991, YOU single-handedly educated and controlled. fired, imprisoned, agitated. and someone NOBODY (in comparison with your power) ... is to blame ?! lol And who, by the way, are the rulers, if not impotent? lol
                      4. Neo matrix
                        Neo matrix 20 November 2020 12: 32
                        0
                        I denied all your nonsense, the lying Olga troll "Olgovich", and I can continue to do this until I get tired of wasting time on you as a liar.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        WHERE ARE RUSSIANS Odessa, Nikolaev, Uralsk, Verny, Aleksandrovsk, etc., etc.

                        The entire territory of the USSR was a territory WITH THE RUSSIAN STATE LANGUAGE, the Russians lived wherever they wanted and no one oppressed them, the legal affiliation of a particular settlement meant NOTHING for the position of the Russians.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        YOUR traitors cut off 5 million km2 from Russia, WHERE are they, eh?

                        The territory of Ingushetia in 1916 - 21.3 million sq. Km.
                        The territory of the USSR in 1981 was 21.4 million sq. Km.
                        http://www.warconflict.ru/files/images/rossia/ruswarchron/rossplot&popul1000-1987.png
                        Well, what did they cut off? You, brahlo, where 5 million sq. Km. found?
                        Your anti-Soviet traitors who came to power in the 1990s began to cut off
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Look out the window: there are these "paper" borders in nature

                        Your traitors who came to power in the 1990s and cut off
                        paper borders did not exist until the 1990s.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        There were ORDERS less: from 400 thousand in 1926, abortions increased to 6 million in 1960, with YOUR policy
                        Murderers! Today abortions are at times fewer. than in the RSFSR.
                        Abortion is the IMPOTENCE and stupidity of the system, not the parents. Which, by the way. were brought up by the same system: i.e. you admit that she turned around in education too

                        Unofficial abortions are not included in the statistics, so there was no increase in abortions.
                        Abortions were legalized in 1920, where is 1926?
                        In 1936, abortion was banned. Was there a jump in fertility? No.
                        When abortion is banned, it does not diminish, but becomes illegal.
                        I repeat, according to Orthodoxy, the fault of abortion is ONLY ON PARENTS. Nobody forced them.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        in varieties and picking himself: it was with YOU!.

                        With you anti-Stalinists it became.
                        The link above was given.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        During the year, in ONE peaceful YEAR, 3/4 MILLION people were shot! WHERE has this been seen in the world under any government, eh?

                        You have Pavlov's certificate. And here 1 year?
                        FOR ALL YEARS from 1917 to 1952, 835 thousand pests and enemies of the people were shot.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Stupid LIE, which even the conscientious Tebili "scientists" were embarrassed to write: there is NOT a single document about mass deaths after 1892

                        You have a stupid lie "tebil Olgovich", everyone except you knows that the tsarist officials hid the numbers of those who died of hunger and called it "poor harvest".

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        only then did these terrible famines in the world take place with multimillion deaths and inhuman HORRORS

                        The worst famines in the world with multimillion deaths were repeatedly under tsarism.
                        The reasons both under tsarism and at the beginning under the communists were backward agriculture + weather conditions.
                        The Holodomors ended when the Soviets provided farmers with tractors, which increased agricultural productivity.
                        Under the king, the land was cultivated on horses and by hand, hence the low harvest and famines.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You hear. not?! This is the result of your "craftsmen". And the famine was practically uninterrupted from 1917 to 1953: They died in the Civil War, in 1921,22,23,24,25,28,29,31,32,33,36,37,39,46,47.

                        Liar Olgovich, there was no continuous hunger, the famine was in 1921-22, 32-33
                        46 and 47 years are the years AFTER THE MOST DEACTIVE WAR IN HISTORY, Hitler and German fascism are to blame for this famine.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Yours KILLED, SOLDIER the Russian village, the basis of Russia, with its stupidity, illiteracy, and ichyotism: ANYWHERE in Europe there were hundreds of thousands of abandoned houses, abandoned million hectares of fields and meadows, drowned in the barn. You have managed to bring the people to .... coupons and grain purchases abroad, a full hole !.

                        Vile liar Olgovich, until the 1990s, the rural population increased
                        Your anti-Soviet people have been killing the village since the 1990s


                        Quote: Olgovich
                        and completely managed it, losing IN EVERYTHING, see above .. Even just FEEDING myself, could not.

                        You're lying again, in the USSR in the 1970s-80s, all citizens had work, food, clothing, free housing, free medicine, education, pensions from 55/60 years old and other social benefits
                        Homeless and all the shit started in the 1990s.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        only mummers CLOWNS, for the amusement of the people, remained.

                        I tie you with a knot, thank God ours were, are and will be,
                        these are your anti-Soviet mummers CLOWNS, for the amusement of the people, they stayed,
                        In the future, socialism will be returned, and tsarism will remain in the dustbin of history, and capitalism will go there.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        op-pa: YOU drew them in 1917-40, YOU ruled alone from 1917 to 1991, YOU single-handedly educated and controlled. fired, imprisoned, agitated. and someone NOBODY (in comparison with your power) ... is to blame ?! And who, by the way, are the rulers, if not impotent?

                        Your friends are fanatics of Nikolay2-anti-Soviet, who destroyed the USSR, political impotent.
                      5. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 20 November 2020 13: 34
                        -1
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        I denied all your nonsense, the lying Olga troll "Olgovich",

                        Not a word!
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        The entire territory of the USSR was a territory WITH THE RUSSIAN STATE LANGUAGE, the Russians lived wherever they wanted and no one oppressed them, the legal affiliation of a particular settlement meant NOTHING for the position of the Russians.

                        1. There was NO state language in the USSR, ignorance.

                        2. Cut off 5 million km2 from RUSSIA, ignorance. And Belarus, ukraine and other moldavia had NO attitude to it-this is NOT Russia-read the constitution of the USSR. And therefore they are NOT interested even once.

                        Bring, yes, the words of your general secretary that the USSR is Russia. What now.... lol not lol can you? lol
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        Abortions were legalized in 1920, where is 1926?

                        poked his nose into the FACT: with your tah, the growth of abortions FIFTEEN TIMES over the unfortunate 30 years! The incompetent illiterate not only did not learn how to make condoms, but the teachers turned out to be bastards, yes!
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        With you anti-Stalinists it became.

                        With YOU, they ate vodka, killed themselves and went crazy as they never did before.
                        In the varieties of your a-sam poke around.
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        You have Pavlov's certificate. And here 1 year?

                        from 08,1937 to 08,38 went. Basically, murder - in the help is 750. Remember. finally!

                        And yes, OK, where else was such wildness?
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        You got stupid lies. "Tebil Olgovich", everyone except you knows that the tsarist officials hid the numbers of those who died of hunger and called it" crop failure. "

                        DOCUMENTS ON THE TABLE, deceit!
                        They are not here. even so-called owls. scientists have not written about starvation after 1892.

                        Your chatter is not needed
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        The worst famines in the world with multimillion deaths were repeatedly under tsarism.

                        you lie, even so-called owls. "scientists" did NOT write about deaths from starvation after 1892
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        The Holodomors ended when the Soviets provided farmers with tractors, which increased agricultural productivity.

                        gave a wild HUNGER - wild and uninterrupted until 1953, except in the fall of 1937.

                        The 1913 harvest of the year, the fighters for popular happiness could hardly catch up only ....... to 1956 g. fool
                        By the same year, they barely caught up with the consumption of food, clothes of the level of 1913 - in FORTY years -disgrace-cm. Report of the Central Statistical Administration of the USSR 1955!
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        Liar Olgovich, there was no continuous hunger, the famine was in 1921-22, 32-33
                        46 and 47 are the years AFTER THE MOST DESTROYING WAR IN HISTORY

                        Ignorance and rushing: at you about the corpses in 23,24,25 years https://secrethistory.su/941-neurozhay-1924-goda-masshtaby-prichiny-posledstviya.html,
                        This is about corpses 1927,28,29
                        in the Moscow and Leningrad regions, in the Ukraine, the Urals, in Siberia and other regions [12]. In many rural areas, including in Ukraine, cases of starvation of peasants, eating surrogates, and diseases were reported. and death of adults and children and even suicides caused by hunger. "
                        [Russian State Archive of Social and Political History (RGASPI). 46-51

                        about the corpses in "blessed built socialism 37 and 36,38 g-read Istmat.

                        Are the fascists to blame for the hunger massacre of the people that they staged in the 1930s?
                        On, teach again:
                        NKVD, 1933: Yeisk district. The village of Dolzhanskaya -gr.G **** ate the corpse of her deceased sister.

                        In the same village, it was established that group D *** remained after the death of his father and mother with young sisters and brothers ate the meat of brothers and sisters who died of starvation.

                        Station Novo-Shcherbinovskaya. In the 3rd brigade of the collective farm, E ***'s wife hacked to death and ate her 3-year-old child


                        Remember about 48 years and 47 years: during the war in those territories there was NO trace of hunger, everything was only after it, when they criminally sent bread not to their own dying, but to Poland, Romania, etc.
                        And here's about the "blessed 1952: -x: Secretary of the Communist Party Central Committee A. B. Aristov :,
                        : “I was in Ryazan. - What's there? Interruptions? - No, I say, Comrade. Stalin, do not interrupt, and for a long time there was no bread, no oil, no sausage. He stood in line with Larionov at 6-7 in the morning, checked. No bread anywhere.

                        Remember!
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        Vile liar Olgovich, until the 1990s, the rural population increased

                        deceit, according to CENSUSES
                        (RSFSR) 82,71
                        1926
                        (RSFSR) 78,38
                        1959
                        (RSFSR) 47,56
                        1970
                        (RSFSR) 37,74
                        1979
                        (RSFSR) 30,91
                        1989
                        The killers!
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        Your friends are fanatics of Nikolay2-anti-Soviet, who destroyed the USSR, political impotent.

                        These are forms, beasts, brezhne, hunchbacks and pre-humans that destroyed the country 70 years before extinction and the borders of the 17th century -... Nicholas fanatics ?! belay

                        But they ONLY ruled. No one else can be shoved on.

                        And everyone knows it. Therefore, they remained in their lonely, unsightly form, disguised, funny, miserable shabby clowns from the crooked, puffing cheeks. who think that they are formidable, but for everyone they are FUNNY! lol
                      6. Neo matrix
                        Neo matrix 20 November 2020 21: 32
                        0
                        I denied all your nonsense, the lying Olga troll "Olgovich", you piled a bunch of more.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Not a word!

                        You're lying again. I exposed all your nonsense.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        There was NO state language in the USSR, ignorance.

                        Ignorance you Olgovich, in 1938 the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR issued a decree "On the compulsory study of the Russian language in schools of national republics and regions", de facto Russian was the state language, it was spoken by all the peoples of the USSR.
                        And if we count de jure, then even under tsarism it was not state-owned throughout the territory of Ingushetia.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        ... Cut off 5 million km2 from RUSSIA, ignorance. And Belarus, Ukraine and other Moldavia to her HAVE NO attitude, it is NOT Russia, read the constitution of the USSR. And therefore they are NOT interested even once.
                        Bring, yes, the words of your general secretary that the USSR is Russia ..

                        Ignorance Olgovich, nothing could be cut off from Russia, because it was not there, there was the RSFSR,
                        The USSR was the successor of the Republic of Ingushetia, and the territory of the USSR was larger than the territory of the Republic of Ingushetia in square kilometers.
                        I repeat, the borders between the republics were only on paper, the USSR was a UNITED STATE de facto only with an external border.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        .butted in the FACT: with your takh the growth of abortions FIFTEEN TIMES over the unfortunate 30 years! The incompetent illiterate not only did not learn how to make condoms, but the educators turned out to be bastards, yes! ..

                        I don’t know where Olgovich was poking my nose, but the legalization of abortion did not change the birth rate, therefore, it did not change the number of abortions = legal + illegal. If legal ones have increased, then illegal ones have decreased.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        With YOU, they ate vodka, killed themselves and went crazy as they never did before ...

                        Liar Olgovich, I repeat under Lenin and Stalin, alcohol consumption was less than under Nikolashka.
                        Under YOUR anti-Stalinist Khrushchev, they began to eat vodka and so on.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        from 08,1937 to 08,38 went. Basically, murder - in the help is 750. Remember. finally!...
                        And yes, OK, where else was such wildness?

                        Remember, finally, FOR ALL YEARS from 1917 to 1952, 835 thousand pests and enemies of the people were shot.
                        If there were no 37, then there would not be 1945.
                        And savagery was not in our country but in America, for example, where tens of millions of Indians were killed.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        DOCUMENTS ON THE TABLE, deceit!
                        They are not here. even so-called owls. scientists did not write about starvation after 1892 ...
                        . lie-even so-called owls "scientists" did NOT write about deaths from starvation after 1892

                        You have falsity and chatter Olgovich, the absence of statistics and documents does not mean the absence of facts. Holodomors under tsarism were more extensive than at the beginning of the Soviet period.
                        “The famine of 1891 was so terrible that it stunned even the royal family, information about the famine was hardly“ leaked ”to the press. the famine of 1900-1903 was already under strict censorship.... "
                        "According to the official data of the tsarist statistics, out of 6-7 million babies born annually, at least 43% did not live up to 5 years of age. In other words, more than 3 million babies died from hunger and disease in the Empire every year."
                        "tebil" is your word tebil Olgovich.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        gave a wild HUNGER - wild and uninterrupted until 1953, except in the fall of 1937.
                        The 1913 harvest of the year, fighters for popular happiness could hardly catch up only ....... by 1956.
                        By the same year, they barely caught up with the consumption of food, clothes of the level of 1913-in FORTY years-a disgrace-see. Report of the Central Statistical Administration of the USSR 1955!

                        Liar Olgovich, there was no continuous hunger, the famine was in 1921-22, 32-33. The cause of the famine is backward agriculture inherited from tsarism.
                        "Productivity" - you shit completely off topic, this indicator depends on the weather, but not on the political system.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        about the corpses in "blessed built socialism 37 and 36,38 g-read Istmat.
                        Are the fascists to blame for the hunger massacre of the people that they staged in the 1930s?

                        Socialism was built in the 70s and 80s.
                        The 30s are a transitional period from tsarism to socialism.

                        Remember about 47 and 48 - these are the consequences of the 1941-45 war, the country is in ruins. Or could it be restored in 1 day?
                        Your quote about "interruptions" is not about the Holodomor.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        deceit, according to CENSUSES
                        (RSFSR) 82,71
                        1926
                        (RSFSR) 78,38
                        1959
                        (RSFSR) 47,56
                        1970
                        (RSFSR) 37,74
                        1979
                        (RSFSR) 30,91
                        1989
                        The killers!

                        Liar Olgovich - your figures are about the natural process taking place in all countries - urbanization, resettlement of people from villages to cities. Nobody killed anyone! You are a liar!
                        Why don't you go to the village and dig the ground? You are to blame for the "dying of the village"!

                        The Soviet government made a powerful industrial superpower out of a backward agrarian country, on a par with the United States, now anti-Soviet disguised, funny, miserable shabby clowns from the past "Olgovichi" grimacing, puffing out their cheeks. thinking that they are formidable, but in fact parasitizing on the heritage created in the 1917-1991s.

                        ***********
                        Funny shabby clown Olgovich, back to the topic of abortion.
                        According to your logic, if the state does not prohibit abortion, then it is guilty, today abortions are not prohibited, therefore, in all abortions since 2000, according to your logic, Putin is to blame? belay belay belay belay belay
                      7. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 21 November 2020 11: 31
                        0
                        Quote: Neo Matrix
                        "tebil"is your word Tebil Olgovich.


                        Familiar syllable and "face" communist. lol

                        summary: everything has been said, told and chewed up to you: facts and documents: you, for your sole rule. in just 70 years, have contrived the most powerful. strong, fastest growing in the world, sober, intelligent and proactive Russian people turn into ...... dying, old, drunken, broken, uninitiated, trusting nothing. indifferent to themselves and those around them, a weak people, and the borders of great Russia are by the 17th century... throwing away under the tail of the TWO-YEARS work of the people for the construction of the state.

                        Tie yourself about this -knot lol : for memory!

                        And yes, now Russia is a free country, so to freedom, yes! yes lol
                      8. Neo matrix
                        Neo matrix 22 November 2020 13: 09
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Familiar syllable and "face"

                        You your syllable "tebil" Olgovich and of course recognized your face, this is your word, you can also re-read the comments above and make sure that you started writing this word in the subject.

                        Summary: everything has been told, told and chewed up: facts and documents. The Soviet government made a powerful industrial superpower from a backward agrarian country, on a par with the United States, now anti-Soviet mummers, funny, miserable shabby clowns from the past "Olgovichi" grimacing, puffing out their cheeks. thinking that they are formidable, but in fact parasitizing on the legacy created in 1917-1991.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        the fastest growing in the world,

                        Ha ha ha. laughing Why then there are more than a billion Chinese, Indians?

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        endangered

                        You lie to the Olga troll. Until the early 1990s, the population was growing. Under Stalin, population growth was greater (3 million / year) than before the revolution (2.4 million / year).

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        sober

                        Under Lenin and Stalin he was more sober than under Nikolai2. The above graph is shown.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        smart Russian people

                        He became smarter under Soviet rule



                        Quote: Olgovich
                        endangered

                        Extinction began under anti-Soviet rule in the early 1990s

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        old

                        Dypak Olgovich, did you understand what you said yourself?

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        drunk, broken, uninitiated, trusting nothing. indifferent to themselves and others, a weak people,

                        This was done by you anti-Soviet people who came to power in the 1990s.
                        In the USSR, everything was the other way around - the strongest, proactive people believing in truth and justice, who broke the most powerful enemy in history - German fascism.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        borders of great Russia - to the 17th century. throwing under the tail the TWO-YEARS work of the people to build a state.

                        You lie to the Olga troll. The territory of the USSR is larger than the territory of Ingushetia.
                        You also forgot that the communists returned half of Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands, which Nikolay had screwed up2.

                        That's what I'm tying to you knot for memory !.

                        Now Russia is a raw material colony of the West, not a free country.
                        The remnants of sovereignty still remain ONLY thanks to Soviet nuclear weapons.


                        False Olginsky troll Olgovich, you cowardly ran away from the question.
                        Well, just answer it:
                        You write that if the state does not prohibit abortion, then it is guilty, today abortion is not prohibited, therefore, according to your logic, Putin is to blame for all abortions since 2000?
      2. Neo matrix
        Neo matrix 18 November 2020 10: 05
        0
        Censorship didn't miss a word, point 11:
        Quote: Olgovich
        party of tebils

        this is the party of the lying "Olga trolls"
  • Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 16 November 2020 09: 55
    0
    Quote: Boris55
    Quote: Olgovich
    only not Russia, under which there were no wars.

    We should remember Persia and Griboyedov, for whose murder these territories were given to Russia ...

    Quote: Olgovich
    ... the result of the "victory" of the Reds over Russia

    Russia, after it was destroyed by the interim government, was rescued by the tsarist officers and generals, who trained the Red commanders in military affairs. Yes, under the red banner, because there was no other one capable of restoring Russia. All these Yudenichs, Denikins, etc. were supported by the West, and their plans did not include raising a competitor for themselves. According to their plans, Russia was to be destroyed. For this, the Whites fought against the Reds, incl. and the Second World War on the side of the Nazis.

    The result of the victory of the Reds is the Stalinist USSR, whose economy, in a very short time, became the first in the world. If the whites had won, then the "saints of the 90s" would have come much earlier, there would not have been Russia on the map of the World as a single state-civilization.

    You are a little confused. Not the destruction of Russia, but the destruction of the Bolsheviks. And why speculate about something that was not? Under the kings of Ingushetia it was 300 years old and under the Bolsheviks 70.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • La Peruse
    La Peruse 12 November 2020 10: 03
    +6
    Olgovich! You are just like that character! - We need Peace !!! Desirable All !!!))) Where do such revanchist moods come from?
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 11: 51
    +2
    That is, do you think that if Nagorno-Karabakh were included in the RSFSR, then all interethnic contradictions there would have subsided by themselves?
    I don’t think so. Rather, it would be a constant headache for the Russian (and allied authorities, since the RSFSR was de facto under union control), how to forever reconcile the Armenians and Azerbaijanis and stop the conflicts that arose between them.
    Not to mention what would have started there after 91, when NKAO would have turned out to be an enclave of Russia, cut off from its main part, bloody interethnic conflicts (like the Ossetian-Ingush type) would have begun there, a partisan movement would have arisen when the Armenian and Azeri radicals, supported by the governments of their republics, would fight against each other and against the Russian Federation, and then Chechnya would be added to the North Caucasus.
    And no matter how many Russian soldiers died there - only God knows. And how would EBN solve this issue - it is also incomprehensible from the word at all
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 12 November 2020 12: 18
      -6
      Quote: Sergey Oreshin
      That is, you believe that if would Nagorno-Karabakh was included in the RSFSR, then all interethnic contradictions there would subside by themselves?
      I don’t think so. Rather, it was would a constant headache for the Russian (and allied authorities, since the RSFSR was de facto under union control), how to forever reconcile the Armenians and Azerbaijanis and stop the conflicts that arose between them.
      Not to mention that would it began there after 91, when the NKAO would turn out to be an enclave of Russia, cut off from its main part, bloody interethnic conflicts (like the Ossetian-Ingush type) would begin there, a partisan movement would arise when Armenian and Azerbaijani radicals, supported by the governments of their republics , fought would against each other and against the Russian Federation, and there would be Chechnya added in the North Caucasus.
      And no matter how many Russian soldiers died there - only God knows. And how would EBN solve this issue - it is also incomprehensible from the word at all

      Have you counted how many "would" write? I started and dropped - so many of them.

      You have a fact without "would": Karabakh has been in Russia for more than 100 years, and there are NO wars. So remember it.
      And concocted by ichiots nat. republics are the source of wars to this day,
      1. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 13: 26
        +7
        1905 - a fierce massacre between Armenians and Azerbaijanis not only in Karabakh, but throughout the entire Transcaucasus. Before that, everything was smoldering there too.
        One thing is clear: for 100 years, the Empire was never able to fully integrate neither Armenians nor Azerbaijanis into a single civil nation, as soon as it weakened (1905) and disintegrated (1918) - interethnic massacre broke out immediately
        It is simply not clear how you think it was necessary to resolve this conflict. Leave Karabakh in the RSFSR? Interethnic contradictions would never go away
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 12 November 2020 13: 40
          -10 qualifying.
          Quote: Sergey Oreshin
          1905 - fierce massacre between Armenians and Azerbaijanis not only in Karabakh,

          there was a revolution. Even Russians slaughtered Russians
          Quote: Sergey Oreshin
          It is simply not clear how you think it was necessary to resolve this conflict. Leave Karabakh in the RSFSR? Interethnic contradictions would never go away

          Leave Russia - without any rsfser and other sser
          1. Sergey Oreshin
            Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 13: 53
            +4
            See what’s the matter.
            The Armenian-Muslim contradictions in Karabakh took place before Russia came there with mutual massacres, etc.
            The imperial bureaucracy did not really solve the problem of the Armenian-Muslim enmity. She just drove her into the depths. Roughly speaking, the Russian army was stationed there - therefore there was no massacre. And especially violent troublemakers were periodically exiled to Siberia.
            And they reported to the tsar, they say, everything is fine, the peoples live together, there are no troubles and pogroms.
            But in fact, the underlying causes of interethnic hostility have not been eliminated. And therefore, as soon as the Empire weakened and then disintegrated, they immediately crawled out.
            That is, it turns out that the Empire did not solve the national issue in Karabakh in 100 years. And she didn't even try to solve it, to be honest.
            1. Jünger
              Jünger 12 November 2020 14: 47
              +2
              Yes, this question cannot be resolved. Only by eliminating the disputants or ignoring them.
              This is what RI did .. Because all this talk about a peaceful solution to the question of the ownership of the Kuril Islands or Karabakh is nonsense. These issues cannot be resolved.
              1. Sergey Oreshin
                Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 15: 43
                0
                The imperial bureaucracy was engaged in ignoring, which then backfired. They say, they live, they don't bust (but the fact that they look at each other with wolves and sharpen daggers on the sly - "that's when there will be a corpse - then contact us"). The officials, however, managed to escape when everything began to spin.
                Despite the fact that after 1828 no one disputed the belonging of Karabakh to Russia, and the Empire could do there, in large measure, whatever it wanted and solve the issue as it saw fit.
                But no
                1. Jünger
                  Jünger 12 November 2020 17: 21
                  0
                  And what did the Empire have to do - choose the side to which to "present" Karabakh, and console the injured side day and night and hypnotize?
                  Well this is complete garbage. The real way is to Russify both sides so that they forget about the Ashots and Mohammedans completely and become Vani. It takes centuries that the Empire did not have.
                  Another effective way is to cut out those and others or send them to the far side.
                  But this is a morally difficult method.
                  That's all. And all this talk about "The Empire could do anything" is idle talk. There was little she could do about such a question.
                  Ignoring those and others with sluggish Russification - this is the right path and they just followed it.
            2. Olgovich
              Olgovich 12 November 2020 15: 47
              -6
              Quote: Sergey Oreshin
              That is, it turns out that the Empire did not solve the national issue in Karabakh in 100 years. And she didn't even try to solve it, to be honest.

              tried and solved within a single country for equal citizens with a single citizenship (citizenship).

              The next regime kindled discord not only in sore spots, but even where there was no such thing and it was purely his achievement: Transnistria, Donbass, etc.
              1. Sergey Oreshin
                Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 18: 01
                0
                Yes, the fact of the matter is that I didn't really try to solve anything.
                Let me give you an analogy. There is a room in a communal apartment where two rowdy people live who cannot leave, and every day they fight with each other, so there is a mess for the whole apartment.
                As a result, a district police officer comes to them - a slanting fathom in his shoulders, gives everyone a cuff and growls: "Well, they went to different corners, crustacean children! And sit still, otherwise I’ll hit you with a ram's horn!"
                Well, you can't argue against such a fellow - brawlers each sit in their own corner, glaring at each other.
                And our district police officer is complacently lying on the couch, there are buns, from time to time he shows his fist to the rowdy (so as not to be spoiled) and the report writes: "they say, look how I pacified everyone, now it's quiet in this apartment." And drills a hole for a medal.
                But did he solve the problem? NO! After all, he didn't even really figure out what kind of apartment it was, how these two got there, what they want, why they always quarrel with each other, etc.
                As a result, after some time our district police officer is recalled to another district (or he retires) - and this couple of brawlers again starts a fierce fight, from which the entire communal apartment is terrified.
                1. Jünger
                  Jünger 12 November 2020 18: 34
                  0
                  Well, "closer to the body", without many words - how should a district police officer correctly solve this issue? The option - to buy a separate living space on your own to someone from the parties - is unacceptable, so take out and put this living space to the parties.
                  The problem is simple - there is property that is completely needed by both parties and the replacement of property is impossible.
                  The solution options are only those that I voiced - either kill / send both / one to the prison, or make them one whole.
                  All this is unreal.
                  1. Sergey Oreshin
                    Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 19: 07
                    0
                    Well, okay, let me mentally imagine myself as Tsar-Emperor Alexander Palych. What would I do at the beginning of the 19th century, based on current realities.
                    So, the Gulistan Treaty gives Karabakh (as well as some other khanates) to the unconditional ownership of Russia. All the powers of the world recognize this, do not dispute. It is obvious that the loyalty of Muslims to the Orthodox Empire will never be reliable.
                    Therefore, all local Muslims are given six months or a year to think about whether they want to convert to Orthodoxy. Those who accept it are sworn in to be allegiance to the emperor, the local nobility (khans, beks, etc.) / merchants receive the same rights as the Russian nobility. Vacuu lands become church lands.
                    Those who do not want to - take all their movable property, receive some compensation for the real estate - and go to Turkey / Persia to their co-religionists.
                    Of course, the newly converted will have to look after 2-3 generations. Of course, to emphasize in every possible way that Caucasian Albania was a Christian state, that Islam was imposed on local tribes by Arabs by force and to form Albanian-Christian identity among local tribes.
                    In the end, the ethnonym "Azerbaijanis" received official recognition only in the mid-1930s, before that in the Russian Empire they were called "Transcaucasian Tatars". Well, they would call them "Transcaucasian Albanians".
                    In the end, a huge number of the Russian aristocracy had Turkic roots - and nothing, they accepted Orthodoxy, they were planted.
                    As for the Armenians - to set aside miafzitism, the AAC makes all decisions of 4-7 Ecumenical Councils, signs a union with the ROC, receives wide autonomy, the Armenian Catholicos is accountable to the Holy Synod. Those who persist in miafzitism - see above. They take away movable property, receive some kind of compensation for real estate - and go, guys, where you want, who is just waiting for you where, a good question))
                    Those who adopt Orthodoxy in the "Seven Ecumenical Councils" receive all the rights enjoyed by the subjects of the Russian Empire, the priesthood, the remnants of the nobility, merchants - similar rights, etc.
                    After all, in the Byzantine Empire there were many Orthodox Armenians - "Chalcedonites", who sometimes occupied the highest posts (up to the imperial).

                    Encouragement of mixed marriages, retired Russian soldiers to settle there, allot land and marry Orthodox Armenians / Orthodox Turkic women / Kurdish women / Albanians, etc. If their fathers / uncles / brothers are against - they are deprived of the rights of the state and go to Siberia to cut down the forest. Mixed families should be given allowances at the expense of the treasury, so that, relatively speaking, every shepherd knows that if you marry your daughter to a Russian retiree, you will get a good bakshish from the White Tsar.
                    Well something like that.
                    1. Jünger
                      Jünger 12 November 2020 20: 36
                      0
                      I agree that the RI needed to more intensively Christianize and Russify the conquered tribes.
                      Better in general, as the Incas did - the conquered tribe collected money and moved to other lands, and loyal citizens settled in its place. And no Karabakhs.
                      What you say - the Russification and Christianization of the conquered tribes is a very complex process, fraught with uprisings and requiring a tremendous amount of time and patience.
                      And all this was done in RI in different places, at different times and with different zeal.
                      Let's take the same Jews on whom the Russian state exerted tremendous pressure for two centuries. And the stick offered them gingerbread.
                      What - the Jews are over? The empire is over.
                      And the Armenians were pressured and the Georgians for centuries - the Ottomans and Persians. Neither the Armenians, nor the Georgians, nor their faith have gone anywhere. And RI would not have redrawn them either with a stick or a carrot. As she did not reshape the Tatars, only a small part was able to Christianize. And I tried hard since the days of Ivan 4.
                    2. Sergey Oreshin
                      Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 20: 50
                      +2
                      About the fact that the process of Christianization is fraught with uprisings. You see, what is the matter, after the defeat of Turkey in 1812 and Persia in 1813, local Muslims were disorganized, their resistance was broken, the entire territory of the region was occupied by Russian troops, whose fighting fervor, as they say, had not yet cooled down.
                      Therefore, if the king included in the clause of the Gulistan treaty a clause that local Muslims who did not want to be baptized should move to Persia, and the shah should accept and resettle them, they would be evicted as dear ones, they would not go anywhere.
                      It is another matter if, roughly speaking, half a century of doing nothing during this time would have brought up two generations of Muslims who have not tasted the Russian bayonet - and then order them to be baptized - would certainly rise up.
                      In fact, Russia did not pursue such a policy, or it pursued what is called “leave me alone,” just for show. There was no purposeful policy of Christianization / Russification (now some of our "semi-official historians" present these as a manifestation of "wise tolerance")
                      All these restrictions that were introduced for Jews, Muslims and others - only made them angry.
                      Again, the example of Spain and Portugal.
                      Well, or Turkey (but there is already in the opposite direction - against Christians).
                      In the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in the 16th century. almost 2/3 of the population converted to Protestantism. Never mind, the Polish kings turned the situation around very quickly.
                      In the Czech Republic, the same thing, there the Habsburgs very quickly, harshly, but effectively carried out the Catholic Counter-Reformation.
                      In a word, those who wanted to change their ethno-confessional balance very quickly and radically and "closed the question."
                      Those who did not want to and pulled rubber (see Russian Empire) - got what they got.
                    3. Jünger
                      Jünger 12 November 2020 21: 23
                      0
                      Quote: Sergey Oreshin
                      Therefore, if the king included in the clause of the Gulistan treaty, a clause stating that local Muslims who did not want to be baptized should move to

                      It is you now, in hindsight, you know that these comrades should have been evicted or killed. And then - the Empire on the wave of success, everything in life is good, inside the country is full of its Muslims - Tatars and Bashkirs. There are no problems. Who we need - at the moment we will crush and strangle.
                      It is now the surplus population a burden - pensions and benefits, and then - taxes and profits to the treasury.
                      So no one was particularly worried that in a thousand nine hundred hells knows what year the Armenians with the Transcaucasian Tatars will share Karabakh. And there was no reason to worry - Wang's grandmother did not sit in the government.
                      People solved the current problems, which were above the roof, and did not put promising graters of foreigners at the forefront.
                      In addition, the Armenians in the 19th century were the main ally in the Caucasus and there was no reason to offend them.
                    4. Murat_Nalchik
                      Murat_Nalchik 17 November 2020 22: 30
                      0
                      Quote: Sergey Oreshin
                      Therefore, if the king included in the clause of the Gulistan treaty a clause that local Muslims who did not want to be baptized should move to Persia, and the shah should accept and resettle them, they would be evicted as dear ones, they would not go anywhere.

                      There was not a single precedent for someone not to change their faith, as a nice little one, was evicted from his land, where he lived for centuries, but a particularly smart expert knows exactly what would have happened! Only Circassians were evicted, but not as cute, but as a result of the 100-year Caucasian war, and not in order not to change their faith, but in order not to live surrounded by Cossacks! For some reason, it does not occur to a particularly clever person that the peace was signed because they did not try to convert anyone by force to another faith!
                    5. The comment was deleted.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Jünger
    Jünger 12 November 2020 08: 15
    +5
    The Armenians have lived there from time immemorial and continuously. And who was wandering back and forth - that's the tenth thing. Therefore, the belonging of Karabakh is quite clear.
    Soon any city in Russia can be declared non-Russian because of the abundant invasion of aliens.
  • antiaircrafter
    antiaircrafter 12 November 2020 08: 49
    11
    As for me, the Armenians, out of their greed, have been going to the loss of Karabakh exactly since 1994.
    Then from a position of strength it was necessary to recognize Karabakh, to agree on the demarcation of the border. At the same time, we propose to return the unnecessarily captured territory, leaving behind a convenient corridor of the required width; propose to provide unhindered transit to Nakhichevan; and possibly some kind of compensation for the Azerbaijani refugees.
    Now we have arrived at exactly the same thing. Only without Shusha and a very narrow corridor and rivers of blood.
    Well, another moment. It seems to me that in the nineties the people fought against the people. And the Armenian people turned out to be stronger. Now politicians were fighting with the hands of soldiers. The result is visible.
  • Fon elia
    Fon elia 12 November 2020 09: 06
    -5
    Can anyone show a document, book, proposal? Where was the mention of the name Artsakh? The article is clearly about Armenian. Azerbaijan is considered a country with many cultural history of peoples. Those who have lived here since ancient times and are newcomers. A kind of cocktail of peoples, religions, cultures. Armenians are the last people who were resettled in the Caucasus. There were no Armenians in Karabakh until the early 19th century. There were Udi Christians. History is a complex science. You always need proof.
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 12 November 2020 09: 30
    +5
    I would start with who the Armenians are, who the Azerbaijanis are
    The second, if I understood correctly, are the Turchen Persians. Overall.
    1. Jünger
      Jünger 12 November 2020 09: 51
      +4
      Azerbaijanis are the descendants of the union of the Turkic nomadic tribes under the general name Kara-Koyunglu.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 12 November 2020 09: 56
        +5
        Thank you! hi That is, the Turks. Armenians who? Descendants of the peoples / people of Urartu?
        1. Jünger
          Jünger 12 November 2020 10: 08
          +2
          I honestly don't know. Either the Semites speaking the Indo-European language, or the Indo-Europeans are not clear with whom they are mixed.
          Azerbaijanis call modern Armenians some kind of hays and newcomers. But I think they are lying, it is clear for what purposes.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 12 November 2020 10: 18
            +5
            Hai - from self-name. Hayestan
        2. Sergey Oreshin
          Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 11: 18
          +2
          The ethnogenesis of Armenians is also very difficult. It was attended by the local Caucasian-speaking peoples, and the Hurrians (the same ones that were Urartu), and the Iranian-speaking peoples, and the Indo-Europeans. The language belongs to the Indo-European family
      2. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 11: 17
        +1
        Not only Turks participated in the ethnogenesis of Azerbaijanis, but also Iranian-speaking and Caucasian-speaking peoples who lived in the Western Caspian region long before our era.
        1. Jünger
          Jünger 12 November 2020 11: 18
          +2
          No, well, it's understandable that they took women from everywhere they passed.
          They are taking in Moscow now.
          1. Sergey Oreshin
            Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 11: 21
            +2
            In principle, there were not so many Turks there. It's just that the local Caucasian-speaking and Iranian-speaking peoples, who fell under the rule of the Turkic rulers, gradually switched to the Turkic language over the centuries
            1. Jünger
              Jünger 12 November 2020 11: 52
              0
              Yes, they are few everywhere. And even less in Turkey. A tribe came, overwhelmed the locals and began to dissolve in them, if not cut out at the root. And in the latter case, women still went into business.
  • Operator
    Operator 12 November 2020 10: 44
    +4
    The ethnic border between the carriers of the Caucasian haplogroup G (Abkhazians, Ossetians, Georgians and Armenians) and the carriers of the North Semitic haplogroup Y2 (Chechens, Ingush and Azerbaijanis) runs through the territory of Karabakh.

    Until the middle of the 2nd millennium BC. speakers of G spoke Abkhaz, speakers of Y2 spoke Chechen. After the conquest by the Mitannian Aryans, they began to speak in hybrid languages ​​(with the exception of the Abkhaz, Chechens and Ingush), at the beginning of the 1st millennium AD. after the conquest by the Ottoman Turks, the Azerbaijanis began to speak the Turkic language.

    Now in Transcaucasia there are three large ethnic groups that differ linguistically and culturally - Caucasians (Abkhazians, Ossetians, Georgians and Armenians), Iranians and Turks (Turks and Azerbaijanis). Plus religious differences within these ethnic groups along the line of Christianity - Islam (including along the line of the Sunni Shiites).
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 11: 44
    +6
    In general, the article is, of course, very chaotic and superficial.
    First, the author does not at all distinguish between the concepts of "Plains Karabakh" and "Nagorno Karabakh", and their history was largely different. Plain Karabakh after the Arab conquest was almost always under Muslim rule, in the 11th century. the Turks appeared there and by the end of the Middle Ages they almost completely Turkified it.
    Secondly, it gives an extremely fluent description of the general history of Nagorno-Karabakh and the Armenian principalities and melikoms that existed there. Nagorno-Karabakh just before the middle of the 18th century. remained Armenian, Armenian princes and meliks recognized the supreme power of Muslim rulers on the plain, but in fact ruled in the mountains as independent rulers.
    The author does not write anything about how the Muslim Turkic Karabakh Khanate was actually formed. In the middle of the 18th century. bloody feudal strife was going on between the seven Armenian meliks, and the melik of Varanda Shahnazao invited the ruler of the nomadic Javanshir tribe Panah-Ali to help him and gave him land for settlement. Panah-Ali built the Shusha fortress on the top of the mountain, made it his residence and gradually subdued all 7 meliks. After that the Turks began to move to Nagorno-Karabakh.
    Further, the author says nothing about how and why the Karabakh Khanate became part of Russia. And the point is. that Iran under Qajars made several campaigns, trying to subjugate the Karabakh Khanate. And Panakh-Ali's son, Ibrahim-Khalil, realizing that he could not restrain the Persians on his own, invited Russian troops to help in 1805 and recognized himself as a vassal of Alexander the First.
    Just a year later, in 1806, the Russian commandant Dmitry Lisanevich, suspecting the khan of intending to go over to the Persians (this was not confirmed), suddenly attacked him and shot him along with most of his relatives. There was a generally dark story, most likely, a deliberate provocation of the Russian command, which wanted to get rid of the Karabakh khans and take possession of Shusha. In 1822 the Khanate was finally annexed by Russia.
    The statement that "the Armenian population coexisted quite normally with the Azeri, and there was not even talk of any sort of" showdown "between them" is not entirely true. In 1905, there were bloody battles between Armenians and Azerbaijanis, as well as throughout Transcaucasia.

    In general, the author does not write anything about how difficult and contradictory the issue of the territorial belonging of Nagorno-Karabakh was solved in 1920-1921. (then they decided to include him in the Armenian SSR, literally the next day - in the Azerbaijan), there was a very difficult backstage struggle.
    And of course, in Soviet times, latent interethnic tension there was very strong, and from time to time between the Armenian SSR and the Azerbaijan SSR due to the territorial affiliation of the NKAO, disputes and disagreements began, which the union center did not resolve, but only stopped
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 11: 53
    +4
    Quote: Boris55
    We should remember Persia and Griboyedov, for whose murder these territories were given to Russia ...

    Persia ceded Karabakh to Russia in 1813, according to the Gulistan treaty, 16 years before the murder of Griboyedov.
    Rather, as "lost". She did not control him since 1747 (the murder of Nadir Shah), just formally he was listed with her.
    De facto, Karabakh came under the control of Russia in 1805-1806.
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 11: 58
    +3
    Quote: Junger
    Armenians have lived there since time immemorial

    Well, still not from time immemorial. The autochthons there are Caucasian-speaking tribes related to the tribes of Caucasian Albania and modern Dagestanis, as well as the Udins.
    Armenians started migrating to Karabakh in the 6th and 2nd centuries. BC, and by the middle of the 1st millennium AD. finally assimilated the Caucasian-speaking autochthonous.
    1. Jünger
      Jünger 12 November 2020 14: 42
      +2
      Well, in comparison with the Turks of the 10th or 11th centuries, this is called - from time immemorial.
      1. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 15: 36
        0
        Compared to the Turks, yes.
        But now in Azerbaijan they are actively insisting that their ancestors are not only the Turks, but also the Caucasian Albanians who lived in the Western Caspian before the arrival of the Turks.
        And the Caucasian-speaking tribes also lived on the territory of Karabakh before the arrival of the Armenians.
        Of course, this argument is, as they say, "far-fetched", but ...
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 12 November 2020 15: 01
      +5
      I learned more from you than from the article!)) hi
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 12 November 2020 17: 42
        +2
        So Kharluzhny only drew a "skeleton" and then conditionally, and add "muscles" yourself
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 12 November 2020 20: 24
          +1
          Well, yes, this author does not really care
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 13 November 2020 10: 10
            0
            That's for sure. It can be seen from Denis, Valery or Shpakovsky that they are preparing their materials for a long time and diligently
  • Kapral Alphych
    Kapral Alphych 12 November 2020 16: 13
    +1
    And then the Russians flew in ... They gave everyone stars. It was very tasteless, but it was enough for everyone.)
  • vladcub
    vladcub 12 November 2020 16: 57
    +1
    The author does not know, or in Samson's way does not want to know everything that does not meet his wishes ..
    Stalin was born in the Caucasus, good "internal kitchen" and offered to form the Transcaucasian Territory as part of the RSFSR, in this matter he was supported by the Dzerzhinsky, but the Transcaucasian Territory as part of the RSFSR did not fit someone's plans and as a result Lenin scolded the "Great Russian chauvinists."
    As subsequent events showed, STALIN WAS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Had the Transcaucasus remained a part of Russia, there would have been NO "First" and subsequent wars. And now the flames have been shot down, but the embers are smoldering with a strong enough wind to flare up again
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 12 November 2020 20: 25
      +2
      I want to remind you of the Ossetian-Ingush and Chechen wars between the subjects of the Russian Federation hi
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 13 November 2020 10: 04
        +1
        Thanks for the reminder, where are there no ethnic conflicts?
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 13 November 2020 10: 08
          +2
          There are everywhere - I just write that the entry of Armenia and Azerbaijan into the Russian Federation would not have solved anything there, just the Russian military would have been killed more.
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 13 November 2020 12: 23
            +1
            So bad and so bad too
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 13 November 2020 12: 27
              +1
              Without accession - cheaper and less human losses of Russians
  • Azimuth
    Azimuth 12 November 2020 17: 01
    0
    Quote: antiaircrafter
    ... Well, another moment. It seems to me that in the nineties the people fought against the people. And the Armenian people turned out to be stronger. Now politicians were fighting with the hands of soldiers. The result is visible.
    And then it was the same. They fought for the region, Transcaucasia was not in vain and will be the arena of collision.
    Then in Azerbaijan, as a result, came their own version of Pashinyan and his comrades.

    Stalin wanted to unite our and Iranian Azerbaijan, practically proceeded to this, but then Mikoyan and others were able to persuade them, and relying on Britain and the United States. There were business there.
    If Stalin's plan had worked, they would have received a 22 million Muslim republic at that time, there were many risks with this, but then the exit to Central Asia would have been locked forever, this is part of the Silk Road. And so this piece of northern Azerbaijan dangles between us and the "partners".
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 17: 52
    0
    Quote: ANB
    autonomy within Azerbaijan.

    Like the Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic or in what format?
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 18: 06
    +1
    Quote: Junger
    But this is a morally difficult method.

    Well, Spain and Portugal decided their "Muslim question" in the 16th century. and who cares what the sovereign monarchs do in their country?
    IMHO, but yes, the Empire had to choose one side and do something immediately and quickly, and not pull the cat by the tail for 100 years.
    By the way, there was no Russification from the word "absolutely", and they did not try to promote it there.
    Except for Russification, the fact that the Empire trained in its educational institutions a certain number of intellectuals who became ideologists of Armenian / Azerbaijani nationalism and officers / generals, who in 18, enthusiastically rushed to slaughter each other
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 18: 10
    +1
    Quote: vladcub
    Had the Transcaucasus remained a part of Russia, there would have been NO "First" and subsequent wars.

    Are you sure? The North Ossetian, Chechen-Ingush and Dagestan Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republics were part of the RSFSR, which, however, did not prevent the Ossetian-Ingush conflict in 1992, two Chechen wars, and hostilities in Dagestan in the late 90s from breaking out. etc.
    So, against the background of the zvizdet that was happening in the late 80s and early 90s, Russia would have received in the Transcaucasus, relatively speaking, "two Chechnya" and "three Dagestans"
  • Recoil
    Recoil 12 November 2020 19: 00
    -1
    Tired already! Everyone returns to Russia! Only the Empire will bring peace!
    1. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 21: 02
      +2
      First, Russia needs to "find itself" again.
      Because the Russian Federation, in which we live, will not be able to do anything positive, it will only freeze the conflict (as it was in the Prigorodny District, Chechnya, Donbass, etc.), but will not solve it
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 20: 59
    0
    Quote: Junger
    Neither the Armenians, nor the Georgians, nor their faith have gone anywhere. And RI would not have redrawn them either with a stick or a carrot.

    And it's good that they did not succumb to either the Turks or the Persians.
    There was no sense in "reshaping" the Georgians, since they already adhere to fully canonical Orthodoxy.
    Armenians by and large by the 19th century. were no longer Monophysites, and their Miaphysism had few dogmatic differences with the universal Orthodoxy. Leaving them their rituals, worship in Armenian, the autonomy of the Armenian Apostolic Church - the union would be quite real, had the Empire shown a desire for it.
    And then - the Byzantine experience to help, when the Georgian and Armenian elites (especially the Armenian) were very well integrated into the structure of the Byzantine Empire and it did not occur to them to engage in separatism. For why disconnect when you can have a great career in Constantinople? So the same Byzantium did not know Armenian separatism, in fact, half of the imperial dynasties there were Armenian or semi-Armenian.
    Well, and encouraging mixed marriages.
    Quote: Junger
    And I tried hard since the days of Ivan 4.

    The Catholic kings of Spain somehow managed to find a "final solution to the Moorish question." Without any massacre, I must say right away, but also without tolerant co-patronage. And our tsar, excuse me, pulled rubber and was liberal, as well as his successors.
  • Scorpio05
    Scorpio05 12 November 2020 21: 14
    0
    Quote: Anatole Klim
    Quote: WFP
    who he has become and who will be in the future.

    Based on the history, the one who is stronger at the moment is Karabakh, the Arabs were strong - their Karabakh, the Persians became more powerful - their Karabakh ..., in the 90s Karabakh became Armenian, now the pendulum swung in the opposite direction, and then even hard to guess. request

    The Persians were no longer there in the Middle Ages. From 10-11 centuries. before the arrival of the Russian Empire, the Azeri Turks ruled there.
  • Scorpio05
    Scorpio05 12 November 2020 21: 17
    0
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Quote: parusnik
    Peace has been brought to the long-suffering land of Artsakh today.
    ... More like a truce ..

    They say Aliyev has a brilliant education, but this did not prevent him from doing something stupid - to take Karabakh. He does not understand his national pride that Karabakh will not reconcile, that there will be constant outbreaks of violence between Armenians and Azerbaijanis. And no peacekeeping forces can do anything. Yes, they will not allow a new war to flare up, but there will be partisanship. Aliyev would have acted wiser by granting autonomy to Karabakh and would not recommend his people to go there under any pretext. Only a rigid dividing line between Armenians and Azerbaijanis can keep the peace in that region. And if it so happened that the majority of Armenians in Karabakh, then the Azerbaijanis should come to terms with this and let Karabakh "sail under their own sails." The Georgians must understand and accept the same with regard to Abkhazia and Ossetia. Only understanding and accepting these realities can bring peace to these regions.

    So they understood and would have accepted in Chechnya, why did they have to break the chairs?) Or is it just for others?)
  • Scorpio05
    Scorpio05 12 November 2020 21: 19
    0
    Quote: Sergey Oreshin
    In general, the article is, of course, very chaotic and superficial.
    First, the author does not at all distinguish between the concepts of "Plains Karabakh" and "Nagorno Karabakh", and their history was largely different. Plain Karabakh after the Arab conquest was almost always under Muslim rule, in the 11th century. the Turks appeared there and by the end of the Middle Ages they almost completely Turkified it.
    Secondly, it gives an extremely fluent description of the general history of Nagorno-Karabakh and the Armenian principalities and melikoms that existed there. Nagorno-Karabakh just before the middle of the 18th century. remained Armenian, Armenian princes and meliks recognized the supreme power of Muslim rulers on the plain, but in fact ruled in the mountains as independent rulers.
    The author does not write anything about how the Muslim Turkic Karabakh Khanate was actually formed. In the middle of the 18th century. bloody feudal strife was going on between the seven Armenian meliks, and the melik of Varanda Shahnazao invited the ruler of the nomadic Javanshir tribe Panah-Ali to help him and gave him land for settlement. Panah-Ali built the Shusha fortress on the top of the mountain, made it his residence and gradually subdued all 7 meliks. After that the Turks began to move to Nagorno-Karabakh.
    Further, the author says nothing about how and why the Karabakh Khanate became part of Russia. And the point is. that Iran under Qajars made several campaigns, trying to subjugate the Karabakh Khanate. And Panakh-Ali's son, Ibrahim-Khalil, realizing that he could not restrain the Persians on his own, invited Russian troops to help in 1805 and recognized himself as a vassal of Alexander the First.
    Just a year later, in 1806, the Russian commandant Dmitry Lisanevich, suspecting the khan of intending to go over to the Persians (this was not confirmed), suddenly attacked him and shot him along with most of his relatives. There was a generally dark story, most likely, a deliberate provocation of the Russian command, which wanted to get rid of the Karabakh khans and take possession of Shusha. In 1822 the Khanate was finally annexed by Russia.
    The statement that "the Armenian population coexisted quite normally with the Azeri, and there was not even talk of any sort of" showdown "between them" is not entirely true. In 1905, there were bloody battles between Armenians and Azerbaijanis, as well as throughout Transcaucasia.

    In general, the author does not write anything about how difficult and contradictory the issue of the territorial belonging of Nagorno-Karabakh was solved in 1920-1921. (then they decided to include him in the Armenian SSR, literally the next day - in the Azerbaijan), there was a very difficult backstage struggle.
    And of course, in Soviet times, latent interethnic tension there was very strong, and from time to time between the Armenian SSR and the Azerbaijan SSR due to the territorial affiliation of the NKAO, disputes and disagreements began, which the union center did not resolve, but only stopped

    All true.
  • Scorpio05
    Scorpio05 12 November 2020 21: 23
    0
    Quote: Sergey Oreshin
    Compared to the Turks, yes.
    But now in Azerbaijan they are actively insisting that their ancestors are not only the Turks, but also the Caucasian Albanians who lived in the Western Caspian before the arrival of the Turks.
    And the Caucasian-speaking tribes also lived on the territory of Karabakh before the arrival of the Armenians.
    Of course, this argument is, as they say, "far-fetched", but ...

    Will not be attracted. Even the Armenians and Dagestanis themselves (direct relatives of the Albanians admit this).
    Famous Armenian historian, academician Suren Yeremyan:
    "That part of the population of Albania, which by the time of the establishment of Arab rule at the beginning of the XNUMXth century had not yet been ethnically and culturally assimilated by Armenians and Georgians, converted to Islam, and Arabic became the language of the religious rite; along with Arabic, Persian and then Turkic were widely used - Azerbaijani. As the Turkic nomadic tribes established themselves on the winter pastures of the Kura-Araz lowland, the Muslimized part of the aboriginal population of ancient Albania assimilated with the Turkic tribes. This is how the modern Azerbaijani nation was formed. "
    Source: Early feudal states of Transcaucasia in the III-VII centuries. From chapter XIII “Ideology and culture of Albania in the III-VII centuries, p. 324.
    Dagestan scientist S. Sh. Hajiyeva writes:
    "The Azerbaijanis as a people were formed as a result of a long historical development, the gradual consolidation of local ancient tribes (Albanians, Udins, Caspians, Talysh, etc.) with the Turkic-speaking tribes who came in different periods - the Huns, Oguzes, Kipchaks, etc., - and, According to the opinion existing in science, the replacement of the indigenous languages ​​of the population by the Türkic spoken language here refers to the XI-XIII centuries.In turn, the Türkic-speaking tribes were quite motley in their ethnic components, uniting many other, partly more ancient tribes (Sarmatian-Saki), later who participated in the ethnogenesis of not only Azerbaijanis, but also a number of other Turkic-speaking peoples.It must be assumed that the Karakoyunlu ("black sheep") and akkoyunlu ("white-sheep") tribes that settled in South Azerbaijan left a noticeable trace in the ethnic history of Azerbaijan. XV century included "Azerbaijani lands south of Cuba"
    Source: Sakinat Shikhamedovna Hajiyeva. Daghestani Terekemenians: XIX - early XX centuries - Science, 1990. - S. 8-9.
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 12 November 2020 21: 32
    +1
    Quote: Junger
    full of their Muslims - Tatars and Bashkirs. There are no problems.

    Bashkirs in the 17-18 centuries several times they raised very powerful uprisings, not counting smaller raids.
    And the Tatars in the 16-17 centuries. periodically they rebelled, however, not on such a scale as the Bashkirs.
    In the 1780s. The empire survived the first powerful Chechen uprising under the leadership of Sheikh Mansur, which took place under Muslim slogans.
    So the "bells rang" and the reason to think hard was
    Quote: Junger
    and then - taxes and profits to the treasury.

    This is bad when momentary economic interests were placed above strategic ones.
    Now almost everyone scolds Philip of Spain, who evicted all Jews and Moors (even those who were baptized) from Spain. Then Spain suffered great economic losses, but strategically won, because the potential "fifth column" disappeared (and after all, then Spain was waging heavy wars with Turkey) and the option of creating an "Andalusian Autonomous Republic" was ruled out, which after a certain number of years could refuse to sign the "Federated Treaty" and try to introduce "Sharia rule" with the inevitable massacre of the Spaniards (as it happened in one Russian region).
    So, whatever one may say, but the Catholic kings of Spain (and Portugal, where everything was similar) looked forward to the future more soberly than our kings
  • Scorpio05
    Scorpio05 12 November 2020 21: 33
    +1
    Quote: Sergey Oreshin
    Compared to the Turks, yes.
    But now in Azerbaijan they are actively insisting that their ancestors are not only the Turks, but also the Caucasian Albanians who lived in the Western Caspian before the arrival of the Turks.
    And the Caucasian-speaking tribes also lived on the territory of Karabakh before the arrival of the Armenians.
    Of course, this argument is, as they say, "far-fetched", but ...

    By the way, Albanian clans, i.e. Albanian origin even in our time was quite well traced among Azerbaijanis. True, only among eminent families - the aristocracy of Azerbaijan. For example, ascending to Hasan Jalal Dol or Melik Shahnazar (more recently) - by the way, Ibrahim Jevanshir's father-in-law. Melik Shahnazar married Ibrahim Khan Jevanshir's daughter Khyurzad (a typical Azerbaijani name already))
    The Jalal Hasans actually go back to the Iranian Sassanids and the ancient Aranshahiks (Parthian Arshakids).
    The fact is that some of the Albanian meliks, and a considerable one, together with the rayats (vassals and the peasants under their control) adopted Islam in the Middle Ages and became Azerbaijanis.
    Famous Azerbaijani aristocratic Beks' surnames Melik-Aslanovs and Melik-Eganovs and others originate from these Albanian meliks. For example, Khudadat bey Melikaslanov was a member of the cabinet (minister of transport and communications) of the gov't of the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic in 1918.
  • Alex Nevs
    Alex Nevs 13 November 2020 10: 24
    +1
    After the collapse of the USSR, wars began in the post-Soviet space ... and adjacent ones. In the future, the USSR will be calm! only in association. Otherwise, there will be a multilateral, multiple, distortion of territories with the help of the kapino-country. The future is united. Without local princelings (prisidentiks) who can be attracted (re-attached) with trinkets.
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 13 November 2020 10: 42
    0
    Quote: Scorpio05
    The Persians were no longer there in the Middle Ages.

    Iranian-speaking Kurds have lived there since the Middle Ages
  • Albay
    Albay 13 November 2020 12: 54
    -4
    I have not read a more deceitful and tendentious article. Question to the author where are references to the statement that Armenia and Artsakh in the middle of the 18-19 centuries found themselves in an unfriendly environment of Muslims? When did Armenia appear in this geography at all? When did the Karabakh Khanate appear? When did the Armenians move to Karabakh by Griboyedov? ? When was the Armenian province established on the territory of the Erivan Khanate by the decree of Alexander I?
    Aren't you ashamed to lie and write lies? Where are the references to the fact that before the resettlement from Persia the Armenians lived in Karabakh?
    It is not the first time that haraluzhny writes tendentious and completely illiterate articles, but I would like to ask the administrator. Let's say Alexander is illiterate, and you know the story yourself? Read what nonsense it is.
    1. skullcap
      skullcap 15 November 2020 17: 26
      0
      There is no time to dig into textbooks, but Azerbaijanis as a people appeared only after the 7th century, when the Arabs conquered the Transcaucasus. Before that, they were Albanian Christians with the language of the Indo-European family. But the wild Semitic tribes had no compassion for the vanquished and offered only one choice: either you renounce your gods, ancestors and history, or - the pole-ax. Later the Turks changed their language.
      Thus, modern Azerbaijanis are the descendants of the Albanians who chose life. And in Karabakh they could have appeared not earlier than the 7th century A.D.
  • Vsepomni
    Vsepomni 13 November 2020 13: 56
    0
    Russia brought Armenians from Persia and Turkey to Azerbaijan 200 years ago. Before that, there were a meager number of them here. Russia here was creating a Christian foothold. And the Armenians served her faithfully. There was even a monument in Stepanakert in Soviet times. Leontyev even spoke about this recently. And today the Armenians have not returned with their backs to Russia. So Russia took Karabakh away from it.
  • smirgeorg1
    smirgeorg1 14 November 2020 14: 30
    +1
    The current situation will remain as long as Putin is at the helm of Russia.
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  • Zzzz
    Zzzz 16 November 2020 21: 28
    0
    That same d beat. I collected information from the Armenian neta.
    Dubina, look through the old, pre-revolutionary sources. Russian as well.
    "Great Arrmenia" is the geographical name of a certain territory. And it was located much to the south. And today's Armenians are hai.
    d bin. Just to blather on the air
  • Zzzz
    Zzzz 16 November 2020 21: 33
    0
    In 1978, a monument "Maraga-150" was erected in the village of Maraga, Agderinsky region. It was erected in memory of the 150th anniversary of the resettlement of Armenians to Karabakh. With the beginning of Armenia's territorial claims to Azerbaijan, the Maragha-150 monument was deliberately demolished by the Armenians in 1988.
  • Murat_Nalchik
    Murat_Nalchik 17 November 2020 21: 32
    +1
    So, the reason for the conflict is solely in Perestroika and in the collapse in the USSR, and the reason why Karabakh, the majority of whose population were Armenians, was transferred to Azerbaijan, is not subject to discussion! Liberals are always to blame, and hard-handed supporters are always right!

    ==========================================
    “After that, peace and tranquility came to the lands of Nagorno-Karabakh for more than a hundred years. The Armenian population coexisted quite normally with the Azerbaijani population, and there was no question of any“ showdowns ”between them. This continued until the collapse of the Empire, which plunged everyone peoples into the abyss of fratricidal wars. "
    ==========================================
    And at the same time not a word was said that in 1905-1906. there was a massacre between Armenians and Azerbaijanis! Under the Empire, this could not be! And what kind of "fratricidal wars"? Who was "brother" to whom? What kind of "brotherhood" is this if it can exist only as long as there is a rigid authoritarian power!

    ==========================================
    "In the Soviet Union," interethnic strife "was not supposed to be - that was not what happened"
    ==========================================
    Indeed, there were no deportations of peoples, no reasons for these deportations, no conflicts caused by the return of the deported peoples, no Georgian-Abkhaz clashes in the 70s, no Ossetian-Ingush clashes that led to the riots in Ordzhonikidze in 1981! None of this happened, since it was not supposed to, then it never happened!

    ==========================================
    "With renewed vigor, the flames of conflict flared up in the early 90s."
    ==========================================
    Lying! The flames of conflict broke out in February 1988! I was then 18 years old, and then I already heard about all this! And when in June 1988 I went to the army, there I already heard everything from the Armenians and Azerbaijanis themselves! Are the clashes near Askeran not "flames of conflict"? Is the Sumgait pogrom not a "flame of conflict"?

    ==========================================
    "Today, peace is brought to the long-suffering land of Artsakh again. And, for the umpteenth time, Russian soldiers are carrying it."
    ==========================================
    "Peace has been brought" after the crushing defeat of the Armenian army, after the colossal territorial losses that Armenia suffered. With the signing of an armistice with the Germans in 1917 and with the signing of the Brest Peace Treaty, peace was also brought to Russia! And after the Versailles agreement, peace was also brought to the German and Austrian lands! And only Russian soldiers bring peace to the Land of Artsakh, and commander Rustam Muradov, a native of Dagestan, he is also Russian! Now, if he was a criminal, then he would be Caucasian, not Russian!
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 18 November 2020 10: 03
    0
    Quote: Murat_Nalchik
    so that someone, so as not to change faith, how dear was evicted from his land, on which he lived for centuries, was not

    Spanish and Portuguese Moors and Jews, as well as French Huguenots, look at you in bewilderment
    1. Murat_Nalchik
      Murat_Nalchik 18 November 2020 21: 51
      0
      They look in bewilderment at the smart guy who calls the eviction as a result of the Reconquista, which lasted for 7 centuries, or as a result of religious wars that lasted for tens of years, and devastated France, as "eviction like cute". Anyway, I meant Russia. Was Russia trying to convert the Tatars, Bashkirs, the peoples of the North Caucasus and Central Asia to Christianity in this way? Has Russia forced at least one people to change their faith? Where does the author of the words about "cute" know who would have done what as cute?
    2. Murat_Nalchik
      Murat_Nalchik 18 November 2020 21: 55
      0
      Quote: Sergey Oreshin
      Spanish and Portuguese Moors and Jews, as well as French Huguenots, look at you in bewilderment

      They look in bewilderment at a comrade who calls the eviction as a result of the Reconquista, which lasted for 7 centuries, or as a result of religious wars that lasted for tens of years, and devastated France, as "eviction as cute". Anyway, I meant Russia. Was Russia trying to convert the Tatars, Bashkirs, the peoples of the North Caucasus and Central Asia to Christianity in this way? Has Russia forced at least one people to change their faith? Where does the author of the words about "cute" know who would have done what as cute?
  • Step30
    Step30 18 November 2020 14: 31
    0
    Faces. the heads seem to have been photoshopped. The absence of a neck in the right man is especially striking.
    And on the topic, the Armenians could not help but understand that they could not win, because their provocateurs had to be caught and punished. And of course not to respond to the actions of Azerbaijan.
    And since they did not do this, the question of the accidental development of the conflict is removed. And it doesn't matter who and when where he lived. For example, no one is expelled from Russia.
    And "one people, two countries Turkey and Azerbaijan", this is exactly until Turkey subverts Azerbaijan and says "one people - one country, Turkey". Will Azerbaijanis want to join, and especially their elites? And to whom will they bow then?
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 18 November 2020 21: 57
    0
    Quote: Murat_Nalchik
    called the eviction as a result of the Reconquista, which lasted for 7 centuries

    No, not in the course of the Reconquista, namely that after its end. First, the Catholic kings Ferdinand and Isabella ordered all Moors and Jews who did not want to be baptized to leave the territory of Spain.
    Then, during the reign of the Habsburgs at the beginning of the 17th century, all Moors and Jews were expelled, incl. and baptized.

    Quote: Murat_Nalchik
    or as a result of religious wars that lasted for decades and devastated France

    Again, the Wars of Religion ended in 1598, and the Huguentos left France in the late 17th century, when Louis 14 revoked the Edict of Nantes by Henry 4.
    Quote: Murat_Nalchik
    Was Russia trying to convert the Tatars, Bashkirs, the peoples of the North Caucasus and Central Asia to Christianity in this way?

    No, I didn't try
    1. Murat_Nalchik
      Murat_Nalchik 20 November 2020 20: 18
      0
      I agree with you about the Moors, Jews and Huguenots. But in Russia there was no such precedent. And that is why it is stupid to say that "they would have moved out as cute, they would not have gone anywhere."
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