Military Review

On the issue of the difficulty of acquiring historical knowledge

375

In the textbook stories Middle Ages for the 6th grade E.V. Agibalov and G.M. Donskoy 1966, there were such colorful illustrations. This shows how the sea geese blew up the dams on Zelder See and came to the aid of the besieged Leiden.


Learn, my son, both easier and clearer
You will comprehend the sovereign work!
A.S. Pushkin. "Boris Godunov"


Paradoxes of history. Not so long ago, a number of VO readers turned to me with a proposal to write about the work of the historian, to show it from the inside. And - yes, the topic seemed interesting to me. But I thought that it makes sense to expand it even more and talk about the paradoxes of this science that are associated with our knowledge of the past. As always, I will not write "in general", referring to someone unknown. The first articles will be entirely based on my memories. By the way, the majority of VO readers also approve of the memoir "part". And the benefit in this is that we will kill two birds with one stone at once.

History warehouse


I'll start, of course, from childhood, where everything comes from (now at 66 I understand this especially well!). I was lucky as a child. At home in the barn there was a whole warehouse of history textbooks, starting in 1936. And there was no greater pleasure for me than laying out books from different years side by side and comparing pictures in them. And then also read the texts. So, thanks to this, I, for example, learned that in the old Soviet textbooks the history of Russia and the West was given in parallel and it was easy to compare: what they have, what we have! Why this was abandoned after the war, I still do not quite understand ...


But this similar illustration from the textbook by E.M. Golina, V.L. Kuzmenko, and M. Ya. Loiberg is also for the 6th grade, but already an evening (shift) school. To be honest, I still haven't decided which tutorial is better!

As I got older, I told everyone that I would be a historian, "like a mother." And there was no other example before my eyes. In history school, I did not know how to get fours, I participated in all the Olympiads. In a word, he was "the pride of the school" and at the same time ... her curse in the field of mathematics. And how much blood our mathematician Pepin Korotkiy spoiled me (a nickname that I invented for him, because he really was ... more than "short"). And I can't count him.


Here is its cover ...

Historian with an English accent


Naturally, my path was straight to the pedagogical institute. But there was a hitch: there was no purely history faculty, since they introduced an innovation - the specialty "history and English". But since I graduated from a special school with English from the 2nd grade, there were no problems in this case. Quite the opposite: I easily did things that took others a lot of time. And I used it to look after the girls, of whom we had more than half in our two groups (totaling 50 people).


And this is a textbook more familiar to us by Agibalov and Donskoy ...

How were we taught? There was a drunkard professor and a doctor of sciences who could come to a lecture with a red face and, pointing a finger at a student, say:

“Well, you patlataya! In what year did Batu come to Russia? What you do not know? What a fool! You long! Tell me, what did the Scythian akinak look like? What's the curve? You yourself are crooked akinak, you fool! "

“They ruled his brains,” he promised not to drink, but ...
By the way, he was a friend of my own father, and many times said this out loud (the level of pedagogical tact). Which gave me a lot of trouble: I had to teach in such a way that no one could say that my grades were undeserved.

On the issue of the difficulty of acquiring historical knowledge
I really liked these drawings of warriors from the textbook of Agibalov and Donskoy. But where did they get them from? Now I could say that (except perhaps the ax) everything on it is fiction. And the ax does not look like Francis in any way.

We studied in detail "Salicheskaya Pravda" and its difference from "Ripuarskaya Pravda", "Pravda Yaroslav" and "Pravda Yaroslavichi", the texts of the chronicles, Karamzin, Solovyov, Rybakov ... Lord, what tremendous volumes of information. And there was no internet. Everything had to be read live.

Rural teacher


For two years the history of the CPSU was read to us by Doctor of Science Professor Morozov. I read it interestingly. This one was ... "my mother's friend." True, he had the sense not to say it out loud in front of other students. But ... since your "friend's" son is studying with you. Well, help him in his career? Helped! He gave a lecture "The personality cult of Mao Zedong and its consequences." It should be recalled here that (I studied at my institute from 1972 to 1977) then everyone and everywhere criticized Mao.

Well, what report could I give? What sources? On the Pravda newspaper? Later, when I myself became a teacher at the Higher School, I never gave my students such unbearable work. Do you want to do science? Here's a topic for you on archival materials, newspaper materials - go to the archives and work. For example, "Messages from the Soviet Information Bureau about the losses of Soviet and German troops during the war." Yes, the student had to look through 1418 newspapers. But it was small, but his personal research. According to his strength. And not about "Mao Zedong ... bad."


But this "Slavic warrior" is generally not clear from what era. And the text on the right ... It should be read to Eduard Vaschenko, Ph.D., associate professor, our author, who writes about the Slavs ...

What surprised me? Our knowledge was redundant to teach in the village school. It would not hurt to pay more attention to pedagogy. At that time, a high school teacher did not need scientific communism, diamat and history mathematics at all, but they all hammered our heads very hard. Such an important subject as historiography was poorly given. Although, again, why would he be a teacher of a rural school?

Whatever it was, but I graduated from the institute. He worked for four years in a rural school. And in 1982 he began to work at our Penza Polytechnic Institute as an assistant in the department of the history of the CPSU. For each class I had to read the corresponding Leninist works. But at the same time, I was given a tough condition to pass the candidate minimum and go to graduate school in three years. Otherwise - for departure.


My first trophy, received at the historical Olympiad

The birth of a modeler


By the way, it was then, in the early 80s, that I just began to be interested in tanks... At first, purely utilitarian. Back in the village, he took part in the All-Union competition of the Ministry of Legislation for the best toy, dedicated to the 110th anniversary of V.I. Lenin. And he won with the model of the tank "Fighter for Freedom ...". Then, in 1984, he took second place in the same competition (which was even written about by the Tekhnika-Molodozh magazine). Well, a bonus, of course: a trip to the famous Ogonyok, gifts from the chief engineer for his daughter. It was all pleasant. But I liked making tank models. And how to do them if you don't understand tanks? So I started reading everything I could. This is how my self-education in this area began.


And this is the inscription on the cover of this book. I then bore the name Shevchenko.

In the village, I received the magazines "Tekhnika-youth", "Modelist-constructor", "Science and life" and "Questions-history". The latter turned out to be excessive for me in terms of information level, but I forced myself to read it.

In the village, he began to write articles for newspapers: "Kondolskaya Pravda", "Soviet Mordovia", "Penza Pravda" and "Soviet Russia". And although these were "so-so" articles, I got my hand on them. And already in 1980 he began to write for the magazines: "Modelist-Constructor", "Family and School", "School and Production", "Club and Amateur Art", "Technics-Youth".

Well, and then I had to start passing the candidate minimum in English. For this it was necessary to translate into Russian a book not published in the USSR. With a certificate from the Book Chamber, and even on a specialty. I found this one about the American communist Peter V. Coccioni. I started translating. I was convinced that I was taught English better at school than at university. (But they taught badly at school.) He translated the book in the amount of 90 pages. Passed the exam perfectly. And it is not surprising - I saw and listened to how others pass. It was an anecdote. Applicants in uniform tortured the tongue: "Ziz from ...". But all were given three marks, and they "crawled" this line. (But, in fact, all of them did not master the exam. But ... "passed" and "got into science").

The exam in philosophy (in terms of education) gave me nothing. But two exams on the history of the CPSU, included in the candidate minimum, gave a lot. That is, I stupidly took volumes of the Complete Works of V.I. Lenin and read. Moreover, he also conducted seminars for students. The load was as follows: 15-16 groups a day. I meet (now sometimes) with a doctor of sciences, professor Karnishin and his wife (also a doctor of historical sciences, a professor): we remember our youth, how we started together as assistants, and laugh. After that, nothing was scary for us: six o'clock from 8 in the morning, then at the evening parties - from 19 to 22:30. And so almost every day. So, against your will, you will know Lenin by heart.

In my postgraduate studies at Kuibyshev State University, I had to work in the archives of the OK CPSU of Kuibyshev, Ulyanovsk, Penza, the archives of universities in these cities, as well as in the archives of the Central Committee of the Komsomol in Moscow. In the dissertation, every fact, every figure must be confirmed, so the ability to work with archival files, to search for information is an invaluable experience. And those who are not familiar with this from their own experience simply cannot understand this.

Tanks are calling


After successfully defending my dissertation in 1988, the question arose before me: what next? And here ... the British helped me a lot. At that time I considered modeling BTT as my legitimate hobby. He has already written about how to make models of tanks in the books "From everything at hand" and "For those who like to craft". Received a copyright certificate for an industrial design "Toy floating tank" and decided to write to England: they say, do you have BTT modelers? And if there is, then why shouldn't I (such a cool modeller) correspond with you, gentlemen?


MAFVA membership card Oh, how proud I was of it in 1990. There was no longer a person in the USSR who had such a card. And (as a member of this organization) I regularly received the magazine "Tanquette" from her. And there were so many things that already by 1991 he began to think about doing something similar to this magazine.

And ... they answered me! And they sent their magazines for modelers. And I saw that with all our NTTM and the "development of the creativity of young people", we are sitting in a deep ... hole. That our people are deprived of access to the mass of beauty. And at the same time, our leaders still have the audacity to say that "the West is rotting." We are rotting, this is what I thought about when I was holding the magazines sent to me from there. "We are sitting in a bucket" and do not know the world around.

It was then that I appreciated my knowledge of English. He immediately began to publish articles-translations from their journals in our Soviet ones: “Aviation and astronautics "and in the same" Model-constructor ". And in their magazines - articles "about us." Because at that time we were also a wonder for them - like the Papuans.

The artist Igor Zeynalov designed the texts for me. And I wrote about the uniform of the civil war in the USSR, Alexei Mikhailovich's streltsov, about our fortress Penza, notched features and even ... about the Battle on the Ice and how their knights drowned there ... It was impossible to transfer fees then, and I asked to send them between the sealed pages.

And also the "nasty" Englishmen offered me a free membership in their association of BTT modelers, if only I could write them my articles and send them photographs of the made models. After all, I did them with my own hands from start to finish. And there under "modeling" was understood something completely different.


In addition to the "artillery tanks" T-34, the tank column "Dimitry Donskoy" also included flamethrower

Star and cross


And then I decided that it was necessary not only to deal with the history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, but also what interests me, what I know. What do I know? And nothing by and large. And I went to work in the MO archive. In the fall of 1990 I got there for the first time. And he got there with the blessing of Archimandrite Innokenty, one of the "employees" of the Moscow Metropolitan's office.

I found in the newspaper a photo of a T-34 tank with a DT-5 cannon and the inscription: "Dmitry Donskoy" on the tower. I learned that these were tanks built with the money of the Russian Orthodox Church. I went to Zagorsk (there this office was then, in the Lavra). And I say that I want to write a book "Star and Cross" about the combat path of these tanks. And Innokenty answered me:

“Sir, we are not allowed into the archives. Here's all our data. Here is our pastoral blessing for you. But only you yourself go to the MO archive. "

It was, I would say, a blow.

But what about “nobody is forgotten and nothing is forgotten”? How did we bring this day closer as best we could? After all, it turned out that those who fought in tanks purchased with the money of the church are worse than those who fought in tanks "Tambov collective farmer"? Because there is everything about the "collective farm", but nothing about the tanks bought with the money of believers.

By the way, I didn't find anything in the MO archive then. I spent a month there and ... nothing. The employees themselves have already admired my persistence and began to help. But they didn't find anything either.

Information was unearthed already under the "Yeltsin regime". And in the era of the USSR, for some reason, it was considered terribly secret ...


Tank T-34 from the tank column "Dimitry Donskoy"

But then the fall of 1991 burst out. They gathered us (teachers of the Department of the History of the CPSU, lecturers of the OK and RK of the CPSU, propagandists and agitators, former retired colonels and young candidates of sciences) and they say - "they are no longer needed." But since the staff of teachers of your level is irreplaceable, then ... here's six months for you to retrain. And we fled to neighboring universities - "change orientation."

I chose my native pedagogical institute and underwent retraining at the MHC department - "World Artistic Culture". This is how a new stage began both in my teaching career and in the career of a historian ...

To be continued ...
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  1. Grandfather
    Grandfather 14 November 2020 05: 03
    +9
    Interesting, readable, I'm waiting for the next "season".
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 14 November 2020 08: 38
      -1
      it is not clear how one can be a historian having only English language? To make independent conclusions, you need to know the languages ​​in which ancient manuscripts and manuscripts are written, ancient Greek, Latin, Arabic, and at your faculty the specialty of a simple translator from English has been introduced, which we actually see here: some links to English sources. England in the 17-18th century wrote in Latin, the same Newton "Mathematical Principles".
      It would be nice to have articles that do not rely on translations from the new English, but Arabic or Farsi, or Sanskrit, then there was something to discuss.
      1. Esoteric
        Esoteric 14 November 2020 09: 57
        +3
        Well, in Latin, scientists of those times wrote so that every literate person, in any country, could read their work. And literate people, those whom we now call scientists a priori knew Latin. That in France, Germany, Russia, but everywhere. Until now, the doctor's recipes are in Latin.
        And so your question is correct. The historian is obliged to know Latin, ancient Greek, at least.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 14 November 2020 10: 15
          -2
          Quote: Ezoterik
          And literate people, those whom we now call scientists a priori knew Latin.

          literate people should have known how.
          As for Newton, he has two main works, "Matnachala" and "Optics", one is written in Latin, the other in English, in a popular form, without formulas. At that time, Latin was the language of the nobility and the official language of the country itself. by the end of the 18th century.
          1. Esoteric
            Esoteric 14 November 2020 10: 27
            +4
            Well, this is nonsense you wrote. At least since the War of the Roses, and even earlier, the language of the nobility at court became English, and the common population of the kingdom always spoke it. You know, I like listening to the Anglo-Saxon language that was used in the country before Wilhelm. There are a lot of videos on the u-tube from those who know him. Nice language, Old Scandinavian, correct, if not right. After all, the Vikings from Denmark, Norway, and the British of those times understood each other without an interpreter. The language was basically the same, with minor variations.
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 14 November 2020 10: 44
              -3
              Quote: Ezoterik
              Well, you wrote this nonsense. At least since the War of the Roses, and even

              here you write, but can you prove what you say?
              Until 1733, Latin was the official language in England.

              http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/latin/
              1. Esoteric
                Esoteric 14 November 2020 10: 57
                +5
                Latin was used in documents so that they could be understood in other countries. Do we now have the official language of medicine Latin? It seems to be not. Why is the whole recipe in this language? Maybe so that any doctor, in any Zimbabwe, could read this recipe and understand what it is about?
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 14 November 2020 10: 58
                  -4
                  and not only in documents, but Latin was the language of communication between the nobility and aristocracy.
                  1. Hantengri
                    Hantengri 14 November 2020 13: 43
                    +8
                    Quote: Bar1
                    Until 1733, Latin was the official language in England.

                    Bar, you do not notice some difference between the expressions:
                    "Latin was the official language of many documents written in England before 1733." (c) (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/latin/)
                    и
                    "Latin was the official language in England before 1733"
                    ??
                    It's a pity! Because, "the official language of many documents" (for example, scientific) does not have to coincide with the official language of the country. After all, "many" does not equal "all", and other "many" can be written in another language, right?
                    Quote: Bar1
                    and not only in documents, but Latin was the language of communication between the nobility and aristocracy.

                    This statement requires a separate proof. I think you yourself understand this.
                    Do you have it?
                    1. Bar1
                      Bar1 14 November 2020 17: 38
                      -1
                      Quote: HanTengri
                      This statement requires a separate proof.

                      Well, the fact that the scientific world of England and, say, the office of the king wrote in English, it says that these languages ​​should have been well known to them and practiced. The fact that the documents were issued means that they were issued FOR SOMEONE. And obviously not for the Latins, but for the aristocracy and for the merchants of their country, at least. So it turns out that the entire top of that society spoke Latin.
                      I have already cited the Statute of Zhigimont 3, where he indicated: "... put all constitutions into Russian and write in Russian."
                      And this is in Poland, where the king's office was in Krakow, and not in Lithuania, i.e. in Poland, the office wrote in Russian and for Russians.
                      1. Hantengri
                        Hantengri 15 November 2020 21: 37
                        +1
                        Bar, this is all your thinking, i.e. assumptions. Where is the evidence? Where are the results of a study of documents from the 13th, for example, to the 18th century? Where are the statistics? "Many" documents in Latin, this is how many%. of the total? And the rest are written in what language? Is this% enough to conclude that the English nobility spoke exactly Latin? Etc....
              2. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 14 November 2020 21: 08
                +3
                [quote = Bar1] here you write, but can you prove what you say?
                Until 1733, Latin was the official language in England.
                http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/latin/[/quote]
                From the link we read:
                [quote] Latin was the official language of many documents written in England before 1733. [/ quote]
                That is,
                [quote] Latin was the official language of many documents written in England before 1733 / quote]
                And here is yours:
                [quote = Bar1] Until 1733, Latin was the official language in England. [/ quote]
                Compare and feel the difference. smile
              3. Esoteric
                Esoteric 28 November 2020 21: 16
                0
                Isn't it pretty? Beowulf, reads in Anglo-Saxon, before Wilhelm
          2. Icelord
            Icelord 14 November 2020 11: 41
            +5
            Nonsense, however, but funny. You tell the British. Baaarrrr laughing wassat
      2. kalibr
        14 November 2020 10: 23
        +3
        Timur, I already asked you, what kind of education do you have? You did not answer...
        I asked you, what foreign language do you know?
        You did not answer...
        Please answer at least this time ...
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 14 November 2020 10: 47
          +1
          Quote: kalibr
          Timur, I already asked you, what kind of education do you have? You did not answer...
          I asked you, what foreign language do you know?
          You did not answer...
          Please answer at least this time ...

          I've already told you and not only you a hundred times that I have a higher technical degree - an electronic engineer. English - translation with a dictionary.
          In recent years, I have mastered partially Church Slavonic and I am translating some texts.
          1. kalibr
            14 November 2020 10: 59
            0
            Quote: Bar1
            electronic engineer. English translation with a dictionary.

            Impressive!
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 14 November 2020 11: 11
              +4
              Quote: kalibr
              Quote: Bar1
              electronic engineer. English translation with a dictionary.

              Impressive!

              Yes, now it turned out that the highest level of human cognition of nature - the creation of electronic equipment has suddenly become unnecessary for anyone in this country. We buy all electronics from there. This is the degradation of our society.
              Well, the fact that we were not taught at one time, how the history of reading the old manuscripts follows, is already regretted by many engineers-engineers. Only one real story about the development and creation of technology now makes you wonder what happened to this story, what that's not it.
              As for colloquial English, I can say that there was not a lot of practice, and the very phonetics of this language simply repulses me.
              1. Kwas
                Kwas 15 November 2020 19: 14
                +2
                Yes, we, it turns out, are colleagues! Only your phrase sounds strange somehow
                Quote: Bar1
                the creation of electronic equipment suddenly became unnecessary for anyone in this country.

                as, according to my observations, a good electronic engineer is one of the most demanded specialists.
                What is your narrow specialization?
          2. Icelord
            Icelord 14 November 2020 11: 45
            +4
            So, all the Slavs spoke Church Slavonic. And the British are in Latin. Well enough to make you laugh. Lopnu
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 14 November 2020 13: 01
              -2
              Quote: Icelord
              So, all the Slavs spoke Church Slavonic. And the British are in Latin. Well enough to make you laugh. Lopnu

              I am giving you the link, and what are you talking about?
              1. Icelord
                Icelord 14 November 2020 13: 02
                +3
                The link is broken
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 14 November 2020 13: 03
                  0
                  but what else can you say.
                  1. Icelord
                    Icelord 14 November 2020 13: 05
                    +4
                    I want a lot ... but will be banned
                  2. Icelord
                    Icelord 14 November 2020 13: 07
                    0
                    Timur, how old are you?
                    1. Bar1
                      Bar1 14 November 2020 13: 08
                      -1
                      it's not interesting to talk to you.
                      1. Icelord
                        Icelord 14 November 2020 13: 14
                        +2
                        You repeat yourself. Well of course it's not interesting how what am I laughing
                      2. Icelord
                        Icelord 14 November 2020 13: 15
                        +1
                        Years skoko, thinker winked
                  3. Icelord
                    Icelord 14 November 2020 13: 08
                    +1
                    You are clearly not a shkolota, is it really that bad?
                  4. Icelord
                    Icelord 14 November 2020 13: 49
                    -1
                    Bar how old are you? I perceive 8. Lyalka's attitude to you is simple. The mother will say. May be....
                    1. Icelord
                      Icelord 14 November 2020 13: 50
                      -1
                      Until I get an answer to the question of age, I will consider it a kindergarten
        2. Esoteric
          Esoteric 15 November 2020 14: 27
          -2
          Well, to be honest, you tortured historians with these miracles. With their millions of armies, fleets of hundreds of ships. Where is the wood for this splendor? Where does the money come from, Zin?
          I agree, magic is present even in this world, this is not a joke. Materialists, they are such children, they think they know everything smile
          But still, where does the money come from for the armies, fleets, provisions, magnificent buildings? Have you fallen from the sky? Where from?
          There will be no answer. Or in the style - "Tsar, Khan, (substitute the necessary) ordered.
          In general, historians need to chip in and erect a monument to the Great, Terrible, unknown Nomad.
          Everything was, calm, smooth, grace. But then the Nomad infection came, and that was all. He threw everyone away, such a bastard, in development, burned everything, destroyed. Conveniently how.
      3. kalibr
        14 November 2020 10: 25
        +1
        Quote: Bar1
        we actually see here: some links to English sources

        Everything is correct. But, Timur, and someone here has what more? Does anyone rely on Greek, Latin, French ... Can you name such authors HERE? So there is fish for fishlessness and cancer!
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 14 November 2020 10: 55
          +1
          Quote: kalibr
          Everything is correct. But, Timur, and someone here has what more? Does anyone rely on Greek, Latin, French ... Can you name such authors HERE? So there is fish for fishlessness and cancer!

          here who would argue. The level of this collection of history buffs is not just low, but exponentially low. Admins should somehow take care of the reputation of the forum, and not only about keeping the course indicated by them, but also about attracting historians who have work with decryptions of old texts, and not only popularizers of official history, to publications.
          1. kalibr
            14 November 2020 10: 58
            0
            Quote: Bar1
            who have works with transcripts of old texts

            Do you know how much they have to pay? You now DO NOT PAY for using the resource, do not pay for comments. And there are sites where they pay for comments!
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 14 November 2020 11: 02
              +1
              Quote: kalibr
              Quote: Bar1
              who have works with transcripts of old texts

              Do you know how much they have to pay? You now DO NOT PAY for using the resource, do not pay for comments. And there are sites where they pay for comments!

              I still have to pay for what they tell me the history textbook? Dismiss. For such a presentation of the story, the site must also pay the participants. However, information should ALWAYS be transmitted free of charge, this is my opinion.
              1. kalibr
                14 November 2020 11: 18
                0
                Quote: Bar1
                However, information should ALWAYS be transferred free of charge, this is my opinion.

                Learn to listen to others, not yourself alone!
                Free cheese in a mousetrap!
                Information costs money.
                And if you are given it for free, it means that somewhere, someone gave their work so that you get it for free. Available, in my opinion, even for an electronics engineer who reads English with a dictionary.
                And your opinion in this case does not matter.
                I already wrote that I could go to the Vatican, I could work there in the library, they could translate some documents unknown to us there. This is not a problem now. But can you imagine HOW MUCH IT COST? The total VO budget is not enough for such a business trip! For example, I have not been to Bovington. I did not climb into British and other tanks that are there, I was not on the Day of the battle. Although I know their archivist David Fletcher. Are you willing to pay for a trip there for 10, say, interesting articles about tanks? Of course not. So let's not dream of a pipe dream ...
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 14 November 2020 11: 26
                  +2
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Information costs money.

                  I have a different opinion - free education, as in the USSR. And all costs should be borne by the state, which has taxes from us.

                  Quote: kalibr
                  I already wrote that I could go to the Vatican, I could work there in the library,

                  and why do you need such a costly journey, we have the Russian State Archives, there is the St. Petersburg State Archives, where I heard more Arabic manuscripts than in the whole East, there are many other archives where the path has not been ordered for historians, but it is very possible for you to go there.
                  1. kalibr
                    14 November 2020 11: 29
                    +2
                    Quote: Bar1
                    The St. Petersburg State Archives, where I have heard more Arabic manuscripts than in the whole East, there are many other archives where the way has not been ordered for historians, but it is very possible for you to go there.

                    So go and work there. And I am already old, stupid, I have no time for this ... And there is no money, how much you would not think that the state should. And it should, but it shouldn't! And the path is now open to everyone, you just need to write a justification why you need to go there ...
              2. Icelord
                Icelord 14 November 2020 11: 51
                +4
                Well, you have your requirements, I will take money for an expert assessment of a piece of hardware. What kind of banana did I study so that other ignoramuses could use knowledge so simply?
            2. Esoteric
              Esoteric 14 November 2020 11: 19
              +5
              I disagree. A brilliant scientist is not a rich man, they were not. These were people with burning eyes, not adapted to the commercialism of this world. But they created this world, which uses the results of Their labor, their genius.
              1. kalibr
                14 November 2020 11: 35
                +2
                Quote: Ezoterik
                I disagree. A brilliant scientist is not a rich man, they were not. These were people with burning eyes, not adapted to the commercialism of this world. But they created this world, which uses the results of Their labor, their genius.

                And on business trips to the archives, they "with burning eyes" will go to their hard-earned money? My daughter wrote a dissertation on ... materials from Penza. I looked at everything well. The council in Moscow says: for comparison, take Saratov and Samara. And she "rolled" there. Do you know how much it cost? And then defense ... That's why I'm not a doctor of sciences, although there are a lot of books on history and articles? Because I calculated - the costs will not pay off! Just for reading in one Council, they demanded 70 thousand from me without any guarantees. And I added another 90 and we had a wonderful FOURTH in Cyprus.
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 14 November 2020 12: 41
                  +1
                  as you can see, the path of the golden calf is always from top to bottom, this is the path of degradation along this path, the country led by these and goes.
                  1. kalibr
                    14 November 2020 15: 55
                    +1
                    Quote: Bar1
                    as you can see, the path of the golden calf is always from top to bottom, this is the path of degradation along this path, the country led by these and goes.

                    I see ... how in England, where this calf is even larger, my friend Professor Nicole flew to Syria during the school year, where they found a crusader catapult. He took it and flew for his own ... And also, if you could read his books "not with a dictionary," in sovkovian style, but as it should be for educated people from "hands", you would know that he was preparing a book about the Genoese - he went to Genoa, the Venetians to Venice, and so on. And I was able to do this only by the end of my career ... and then I did not live in Venice, but was exactly one day. So this is a matter of the country's wealth. Degradation - it is among the poor, in the countries of the 3rd world. And in rich countries, the same professorship has everything that is needed for the development of science. Our assistant professors have nothing to cover their ass with!
                    1. Bar1
                      Bar1 14 November 2020 17: 23
                      +2
                      Quote: kalibr
                      I see ... how in England, where this calf is even larger, my friend Professor Nicole flew to Syria during the school year,

                      Firstly, this is not the case. To fly to Syria, how to fly to Turkey, how to fly to Israel, is now available to many.
                      secondly, I am talking about real researchers who receive new knowledge, and not about modern science, when only works that are needed by someone are financed and are not funded if they are not needed by someone.
                      As an example, this is just the development of our electronics industry, which for some reason was simply abandoned.
                      Yes, of course, if we all had our own money or grants, then we could move mountains. But this is only an appearance. Money in this world has only OWN, and the rest have nothing. This is the power of the golden calf.
                      1. kalibr
                        14 November 2020 19: 44
                        +3
                        Quote: Bar1
                        Firstly, this is not the case. To fly to Syria, how to fly to Turkey, how to fly to Israel, is now available to many.

                        This is THAT case, is it really not clear? He could fly there in the middle of the school year for his own money. I could not under any guise. No one would let go and replace and pay. Available?
          2. Icelord
            Icelord 14 November 2020 14: 13
            +1
            Understand, (this is the last time I say it. I'll joke hard) well, it's just nonsense .... I don’t know. Enough will be very hard
      4. Undecim
        Undecim 15 November 2020 17: 34
        +3
        it is not clear how one can be a historian having only English language?
        Bar, and how do you claim to be a historian, knowing only Russian, and even then very mediocre.
        And what languages ​​does "historian" Fomenko speak?
      5. gsev
        gsev 15 November 2020 21: 53
        +1
        Quote: Bar1
        how can you be a historian with only English?

        In the USSR, historians were trained to teach in schools. If there was a desire to become a professional, it was necessary to do self-education. Gumilev was not prevented from mastering several Eastern languages ​​by the conclusion, Eidelman wrote his works about the Decembrists and Narodnaya Volya and visited the archives as a teacher in a school near Moscow.
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 08: 52
      11
      For what I have a good attitude towards Vyacheslav Olegovich, for that little path along which I trod in my senior school age and cadet years to my favorite tanks! To be honest, I was not interested in the Author, purely from the consumer side I read the Technology of Youth, Young Technician, Foreign Military Review. Changed to an extremely rare one (in the Urals) Modelist-Constructor and Tanko-Master! In Tank-Master, replaced for two magazines with a blue light (with posters Universal Soldier and Terminator), I first read the lines that the Author, being a teacher in a rural school, won the competition with the tank "Fighter for freedom comrade Lenin". I wanted to find a similar modular model, but I failed and I strangled my toad with an expensive T-35 (two of my salaries as a student of the EHS of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Russia). The model is glued to the entire cockpit using acetone. So she stayed on the course.
      Then I studied, loved, and so on as a normal student, though with all the cadet's burdens (outfits, public order, and much more). Then, after 95, various encyclopedias began to appear and I began to try once a month to buy one of them! I swept everything from the expensive Shirokorad after which you lived on one potato for three months in a row, to the cheap A6 format. Acquaintances and friends grinned at my quirk, but on my birthday a "sent Cossack" appeared in the walls of my house, after which every year I had encyclopedias with many donation inscriptions. Sometimes it was a shame when two years in a row were given two identical Books, and they put them on the shelf side by side. In 2002 I was presented with an encyclopedia about tanks of the Second World War. What was my surprise when, in the precondition, I read the author's lines about winning the competition! After not a single book by Vyacheslav Olegovich about tanks passed me by!
      In 2012, I left the institute, my faculty was abolished in connection with the reforms in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Now I was working in the city, and I was preparing a lecture by the MPP on the President's message to the federal assembly. I liked the review on VO and I put the kryzhik. After that, I read articles on VO mainly on history, noting Vyacheslav Olegovich's excursions about Argo and Olympia, fortresses and castles. Being not visiting, I was interested to see the photos. In parallel, I used VO as an assessment of an alternative opinion when I was conducting classes with the city's garrison. In 2013 I registered and found friends and enemies. He himself repeatedly defamed Vyacheslav Olegovich for his "snobbery". Do not be offended were sinful. I entered into discussions with him, argued and supported. Then the company was going to throw a stone at the professor. And here, reading about the article about the Tank Grotte, I meet the familiar preamble "being a rural teacher". I understand that this is the Shpakovsky, whose Books are on my shelves, this is the man who initiated my love for tanks !!!
      I am already three times unctuous, but only two people on the site receive a patronymic from me - Vyacheslav Olegovich Shpakovsky and Victor Nikolaevich Popov.
      No offense to the rest of my friends and colleagues members of the forum, I love you all and sincerely respect, you are the atmosphere of my soul that is inseparable for 8 years soon !!!
      We have different opinions and approaches, but we stand shoulder to shoulder with traditional history. Some of us are over 10 years old.
      I am proud to be among you!
      Respectfully yours, Vlad (Cat).
      I ask for a lengthy comment!
      1. kalibr
        14 November 2020 11: 04
        +2
        Y-yes, these are the comments that reconcile you with the surrounding lead abominations of life ... Thank you Vlad!
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 13: 38
          +6
          So as not to be accused of idle talk.


          made a mistake only in the year. Tanks of the era of total wars were published in 2003.
          With respect to all members of the forum, yours Kote!
          1. kalibr
            14 November 2020 16: 43
            +1
            The most important thing in these books, in my opinion, is who was the scientific editor, and who was the reserve colonel, professor Yu.F. Katorin. He made a lot of comments and I specially came to St. Petersburg to correct them ... Publishing house "Polygon" then very seriously raised the issue of such books!
        2. kalibr
          15 November 2020 15: 08
          +1
          Three feminine dogs put down cons. For the site, what is plus, what is minus - ALL PLUS, but their bestial motivation is interesting. One person thanked the other. For his opinion. A well-mannered person says thanks even if he was wished good morning. Available, you animals!
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 15 November 2020 17: 56
            +4
            Vyacheslav Olegovich, don't tear your heart, you will still need it. You yourself are persistently promoting the Pareto law to the masses. In addition, mental and behavioral disorders affect up to 30% of all people, and in countries with socio-economic, environmental, national problems, this percentage is even higher. Plus the constant impact of aggressive propaganda, escalating the situation about the enemies around! Against this background, some three minuses - an excellent result!
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 15 November 2020 18: 13
              +5
              30% is a lot. Is there any dependence on the age?

              It is important to communicate in good company.
            2. Undecim
              Undecim 15 November 2020 18: 17
              +5
              Age does not matter. Go to the "News" section of this site, elderly people are unlikely to hang out there, but the contingent with pre-morbid and mature mental disorders prevails.
            3. kalibr
              15 November 2020 18: 47
              +2
              Victor Nikolaevich! My heart is so armored that I note such "twists" mechanically, without even thinking. I am just mentioning, as I have noted the misbehavior of some students, but it is too much honor to worry about it!
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 15 November 2020 18: 49
                +1
                Armor is armor, and extra care for the body will not hurt.
      2. Phil77
        Phil77 14 November 2020 13: 11
        +5
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Respectfully yours, Vlad (Cat).

        Yesaaaa! Inspires !!!! That's personally from me!
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 13: 40
          +5
          Thank you Sergey!
          hi
      3. Korsar4
        Korsar4 14 November 2020 14: 00
        +5
        And here Vladislav is the most interesting thing when you choose your path. And the book is like a key.

        Internet time. The world is becoming transparent. And you can quickly find the person who is behind the letters on the screen.

        There is something to think about. Although nothing is eternal, and any community is capable of developing, and often degrading.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 14: 38
          +6
          Sergey, to be honest from the Internet, I shied away for a very, very long time. I knew my addiction to computer toys.
          But even then, in an article by Sergei Yuferev about the Prussian army, he was pushed with a lack of understanding of the members of the forum of the differences from shooting in ranks and half-tongs. I tried to get information from the Internet, and she's thin.
          VikNik give examples from Svechkin, but I cannot refute it, since there is not a single Alena travel encyclopedia on the internet, but what is in a house 100 km away on shelves.
          Further into the forest, more firewood. Commentators, possessing after knowledge, begin to interfere in a heap of marching columns and assault columns !!! I am trying to clarify, minus.
          So transparency and availability of information is a double-edged sword. Sometimes ragweed of the purest water, and sometimes a trash heap!
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 14 November 2020 14: 50
            +7
            I agree. Systemic knowledge fosters taste.
            Self-education is selective. You choose the tidbits.
            And, of course, the primary sources are very important, not the rehash.
          2. Esoteric
            Esoteric 15 November 2020 14: 49
            +1
            What games did you play? I haven't been able to win completely yet smile I used to get stuck in World of Warcraft, and this is at that age smile
            All these raids, communication in Ventrilo, even nostalgia breaks through.
            Well, now I sometimes play, but strictly in a single. Witcher, all parts, I just adore!
            We are arguing here, and I ask you not to take offense at me. I know very well that there are many things I don't know. But a supporter of the new chronology, but not performed by Fomenko. Out of me, out of him, out of it.
      4. Icelord
        Icelord 14 November 2020 14: 21
        +2
        Vladislav. From the heart. I envy. I could not
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 14: 38
          +5
          Thanks for the kind word!
  2. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 14 November 2020 05: 24
    +5
    Yes Vyacheslav what I still have to jump and jump to your bar.
    Modelist-Constructor ... my favorite magazine since Soviet times ... has collected all its issues in electronic form.
    Write ... be sure to share your knowledge and experience wherever possible ... personally, I will only welcome it ... very interesting.
    I look forward to continuing hi
    1. kalibr
      14 November 2020 08: 16
      +3
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      collected all his numbers electronically.

      See number 4 for 1980. There was my FIRST article in the magazine in general, about the toy "Vibrokhod" ... Interestingly, you will not regret it!
      1. Grif
        Grif 14 November 2020 20: 42
        +4
        I remember this article. Especially touched by the way to bend the bristles of toothbrushes
        1. Grif
          Grif 14 November 2020 20: 54
          +3
          I'm correcting myself. I was 12 years old. I bought 4 toothbrushes, cut off their heads, bent the bristles, but it didn't go any further. Carried away by something else
  3. Far B
    Far B 14 November 2020 05: 26
    +8
    The article is filled with self-admiration for the most do not indulge. I didn’t master it. Although there are also curious moments that reveal the true essence of the author, like, for example, this one:
    But ... since your "friend's" son is studying with you. Well, help him in his career?

    PS But the illustrations are valid. As a child, he himself loved to leaf through old textbooks in the attic (grandfather and grandmother are both teachers). Then in the dusty he went down from there, tortured to wash. They scolded, but did not beat them by the ears - intellectuals, albeit village ones)))
    1. Lynx2000
      Lynx2000 14 November 2020 06: 43
      11
      Quote: Far In
      intellectuals, albeit village ones)))

      What's wrong with rural intellectuals ?! Apart from spiritual work, they are also engaged in physical work in their estate. They do not devote their free time to "spiritual groaning" ... yes
      1. kalibr
        14 November 2020 07: 52
        +6
        Quote: Lynx2000
        What's wrong with rural intellectuals ?! Apart from spiritual work, they are also engaged in physical work in their estate. They do not devote their free time to "spiritual groaning" ...

        Nothing, of course. He himself was for three whole years. It's just that there are a number of things that at THAT TIME reduced their information level, compared to the city ones. There is such a thing now, but the Internet correlated the difference and very significantly.
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 14: 23
        +7
        Quote: Lynx2000
        Quote: Far In
        intellectuals, albeit village ones)))

        What's wrong with rural intellectuals ?! Apart from spiritual work, they are also engaged in physical work in their estate. They do not devote their free time to "spiritual groaning" ... yes

        Well, if in a purely generalized sense!
        I will share my observations. The rural intellectual is different. Many people I know of intellectual work devoted themselves to the values ​​that you described. True, not everyone succeeded with the estates, they got along with apartments and residential buildings, but not the essence. They kept a small vegetable garden and some cattle. During the years of perestroika, they did not even shy away from raising cows, bulls and pigs, driving them into the herd, and milking a number of my mother's friends doctors and teachers.
        At the same time, purely quarrelsome intellectuals also worked in the school and the hospital, who spoke with the workers through clenched teeth. They demanded apartments, cars and other benefits, referring to that we got into your hole on the order. Once he himself observed how one family of young doctors did not agree to the old two-story building (five-story building), spent three days at the District Committee's bed, demanding an equivalent apartment in a new building (improved layout). They were only offered a room in this house, since there were no one-room apartments in the house. I remember the city was buzzing, as most of Hilo in their houses and hot water with amenities in the apartment was a serious value! They stood in queues for decades, and here they were obviously arrogant.
        At school, I also personally came across a situation when in the 4th grade a physical education teacher did not compliment me that my parents were keeping cattle. They say this is the lot of Gamayun cattle. What amused the young trainees from the city. A Trudovik stood up for me, a person remarkable in that he worked all his life in party positions, and in retirement went to teach children to school. Putting his hand on my head, he succinctly asked the teachers how the manure pitchforks differ from the throwing ones (for throwing haystacks). They all swam. He gathered all the teachers in the Lenin room and asked to enlighten them. As a 10-year-old boy, I talked about harvesting and mowing with his leading questions. The old teachers and the school principal corrected and prompted me. The rest, including the trainees, were sitting with sour childbirth, raking comments from the Trudovik - Inna Olgerdovna the cow has not a bust, but an udder, etc.
        After a day or two, I realized that most of the teachers did not know what all my peers knew.
        Although many of them have not become smarter. 15 years later, at a jubilee with friends, I again met that physical education teacher. When he started to brag that he had come up with a great way to seal holes in the roof of a garage - chewing gum. I could not resist and asked a reasonable question, and not easier to paint a garage.
        Today I believe that there should not be an intelligentsia as such. All have their own competences of knowledge, skills and abilities. To be able to make money, to live richly, to know a foreign language is possible without higher education and a subtle spiritual organization. The era of populism has passed. Every second intellectual who comes to the village takes an order of magnitude more knowledge into his baggage than he can give to the locals.
        Well, somewhere like that.
        1. Lynx2000
          Lynx2000 14 November 2020 14: 58
          +7
          wink
          Thank God, the "quarrelsome intelligentsia" described by you did not come across to me in my youth. Maybe because they didn't stay long. laughing Rather the opposite.
          Hundreds of pitchforks were of different lengths (semi-stacked, stacked), they were in the form of a three-fingered spear made of solid wood, the same rake was made entirely of wood with wooden teeth in a wooden lath. But they were already planting ordinary garden forks.
          All my parents, friends and acquaintances, uncles and aunts helped my grandfather in the village on the mow, among them was a candidate, a philosopher, the chief surgeon of a republican hospital, and we guys drove heaps on horse drags ...
          I believe that a person's intelligence is not determined by a diploma of higher education and the number of tribes from ancestors with such education.
          1. Icelord
            Icelord 14 November 2020 15: 21
            +1
            Not nature is not mine
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 16: 08
            +8
            Taking off my hat!
            Regards Vlad!
            P.s. In the Urals, solid wood forks were not used. Although the grandfather told about them that they are more convenient and easier.
            My father was capable, he mowed with a dozen, metal with two-seated pitchforks. Although four pieces with cuttings of different lengths were taken to the harvest.
            The semi-tall forks were not used for mowing. They were used at home in the hayloft and in zakuts. "Horses" (three-meter sticks) were an obligatory element. I remember I ran into them kopecks. When they were replaced with aluminum sheet and later with fiber, a true technical revolution happened for me. Later, I myself adapted to carry fiber with a kopeck across the Urals.
            So I still haven't learned to beat off a scythe with a hand chipper.
            Well, somewhere like that! Once again with respect !!!
            1. Lynx2000
              Lynx2000 14 November 2020 16: 17
              +4
              Hehe, I found the year 85-86, 2-3 grade of my training. So with my grandfather, he mowed the mowing on a horse mower, raked hay into rolls on a horse roll rake, adults twisted rolls into heaps, on horses (2-3 pcs.), With pulling drags (a transverse birch pole, with longitudinal birch branches attached to it ) carried the heaps to the mowing center. Adults threw an embryo (haystack) on which an experienced haystack stood, who told where to lay the layer (haystack).
              At the age of 14, I got up in my bud to serve hay. Then a tractor appeared, another one, a mower, a rake, a baler, my grandfather became a farmer.
              Oblique (in Siberia - Lithuanian) grandfather taught me how to mow, make passes so that the mown grass would fall into the windrows, mowed for his rabbits. As he said - pampering and kneading your hands. laughing
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 16: 34
                +6
                We had an old factory mowing 3 hectares on Demid. Slope and floodplain of the river. Three Elani, across the stream and one glade. The tractor was driven only to plow and sow. Difficult terrain was not mowing. Only the meadow was mowed with a tractor, but we rowed by hand. So at first they were mowed by Lithuanians at three, then when I grew up at two days. Then they adapted the "Cascade" walk-behind tractor. But they still took from the forest with a Lithuanian. Later, other lands appeared, in different places only 12 hectares. Hay was harvested there by artel, machinery!
                But they did not abandon the old mowing until the death of their father, they did it the old fashioned way.
          3. Fat
            Fat 18 November 2020 04: 14
            0
            I believe that a person's intelligence is not determined by a diploma of higher education and the number of tribes from ancestors with such education.
            Absolutely agree. It takes at least three generations.
            Oranges will not be born from aspen (and if they are, then it will be a huge work of breeders.)
            I always wondered if Eliza Dolittle became the "duchess" not in the first approximation, but deeper (Pygmalion. B. Shaw)
        2. Icelord
          Icelord 14 November 2020 15: 20
          +4
          Well, you are probably right. But what does it matter to me personally? I will not go out of the city, I have been at the border post for 15 years, but there is ration too, please, without perversions. I saw a cow being milked laughing
          1. Lynx2000
            Lynx2000 14 November 2020 15: 28
            +6
            Quote: Icelord
            I saw a cow being milked laughing

            And if you need to milk? Were at the outpost, so they went hunting, hunted, butchered? wink
            laughing An intelligent person, in my opinion, should be able not only to teach life, but also to show by example how it should be ...
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 14 November 2020 15: 29
              +3
              Well, if you need to kanesh, but I will swear smile
              1. Lynx2000
                Lynx2000 14 November 2020 15: 42
                +6
                laughing
                I apologize for the flood, but the cow must be taken with tenderness, otherwise the milk will not sink into the udder ...
                1. Icelord
                  Icelord 14 November 2020 15: 46
                  +4
                  Uh ... I will know
                2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 16: 12
                  +8
                  Wow, I remember trying to help my grandmother milk a cow. To milk - I milked, but how they scolded me for not washing my hands with soap before the process.
                3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 16: 21
                  +9
                  Quote: Lynx2000
                  laughing
                  I apologize for the flood, but the cow must be taken with tenderness, otherwise the milk will not sink into the udder ...

                  But, from memory, this is a whole ritual-applied complex.
                  In the morning before milking, they scratch the feed, prepare the cow for the herd. Be sure to give half a loaf of bread with salt, put fresh hay in the nursery, wash their hands with soap and water, And only when the cow, who has eaten, grumbles the hay in the nursery with pleasure. Grandmother sat down on a bench, substituted a bucket and began to massage, and then milk. I still remember her words “thumb down, softly, gently”. At the same time, she slandered with the nurse, and she raved in the ass with her left or right ear. Then they gave the remaining loaf and sent them to the herd to graze.
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 14 November 2020 18: 38
            +6
            I won't go out of town
            So do I. But if necessary, I will grow potatoes and milk a goat (by the way, it is more difficult than a cow), and I will accept childbirth in an open field (if simple).
        3. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 14 November 2020 18: 27
          +5
          Bravo, Vlad! Simple, bravo !!!
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 19: 12
            +4
            Anton is just how normal people are known! Labor is a way to achieve what you want.
            I personally doubt I can milk a goat !!!!
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 14 November 2020 19: 52
              +4
              It is strange that he did not react to the "birth". Milking a goat is easier.
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 21: 58
                +3
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                It is strange that he did not react to the "birth". Milking a goat is easier.

                I was with my grandfather, I took part once Nothing scary!!!
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 14 November 2020 22: 07
                  +2
                  So you can take the baby too!
                  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 23: 20
                    +2
                    Damn taught once. But Buddy is scary though.
                    On the other hand, I will prop my eyes shut, I will definitely not run into the bushes, but at the same time I will exert incredible efforts to find qualified help. I will shoot at the ambulance wheels precisely to stop them.
                    And so, the sowing cup will pass me better !!!
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 14 November 2020 23: 30
                      +3
                      Well, who does that ... I'm afraid of horses ...
                      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 November 2020 05: 54
                        +5
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Well, who does that ... I'm afraid of horses ...

                        I have an old friend Sergei, who has been afraid of dogs for half a century. I remember going from the institute to a meeting a stray dog ​​is running, Serega begins to hide from him behind me. And dogs are curious, feel the release of adrenaline and show attention. Every time I had to pshik on them. But not that smart homeless dogs have learned to ignore him.
                        There was another case once a pack of dogs rushed out to meet the head of the Department of Criminology. Tamara Mikhailovna, out of excitement, gave them her lunch. After that, the flock always met her and saw her off, and Tamara Mikhailovna carried an entrance ticket for exactly one sausage per homeless mongrel! Over time, the tone changed if at the beginning she went to complain to the general to remove the wild dogs, then she spent money on veterinarians for her guards.
                        At the same time, she was ashamed of her weakness and mood swings. I was always embarrassed if anyone saw how she gave out sausages to her dogs. Fortunately, the dog pack existing on Kalininets never exceeded 6 dogs. Aggressiveness was also not distinguished by having three rich trash cans on the territory of residence (Institute, Sanatorium and the sports complex itself).
                        I remembered myself smiling. Tamara Mikhailovna in a spruce forest by the road gives out sausages to stray dogs. Stands in front of a mixture of devil take someone half a meter at the withers and a demanding well-set mentor tone, "Will you give me a paw or not." Yes, he is a homeless person, seeing the caress only waiting for it, rising on both paws and laying his paws on the hands of a man!
                        Good day buddy!
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 15 November 2020 08: 40
                        +5
                        Good morning Vlad!
                        Stray dogs are almost always the result of human irresponsibility. Many times in the suburbs I saw this picture: they run, in a pack, but everyone is wearing collars. That is, the dog had or has an owner. Such animals are usually destroyed. It is a pity that not together with the owners.
                      3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 November 2020 08: 49
                        +4
                        I will say more rudely, human filth !!!
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 15 November 2020 08: 58
                        +3
                        Exactly. It's just that I've had enough episodes in my life with stray dogs. Last year I almost got away by car, the dog ran across the road. Fortunately, the speed was low and no one was driving behind ...
  • kalibr
    14 November 2020 07: 50
    +1
    Look how interesting it is, Mikhail. You saw one thing, but "Lech from Android" is completely different. You didn’t finish writing, but I’m looking forward to it. So ... the audience is different for all topics. Is not it? Someone also likes my "narcissism"!
    "Write ... be sure to share your knowledge and experience wherever possible ... personally, I will only welcome it ... very interesting.
    I look forward to continuing. "
    1. Lexus
      Lexus 15 November 2020 02: 53
      +3
      Vyacheslav Olegovich, hello! hi
      You have undertaken to be impartial to History in the context of "it was-now". Not so simple.

      When Quintilian's son Fabius urged his father to sacrifice a few people in order to take a comfortable position, he said: "Wouldn't you like to be one of these few?"
      1. kalibr
        15 November 2020 07: 25
        +2
        Alexei! Of course it's not easy. The look at history is ALWAYS SUBJECTIVE. Information search capabilities are ALWAYS LIMITED. Personal interest, in this case mine, always prevails over the interests of others. Yes, you too ...
        1. Lexus
          Lexus 15 November 2020 14: 46
          +1
          The court must be fair. And Stories too.
          1. kalibr
            15 November 2020 15: 45
            +2
            Quote: lexus
            The court must be fair. And Stories too.

            You are an idealist, Alexey ...
            1. Lexus
              Lexus 15 November 2020 15: 53
              +1
              "I got down to the tug, don't say you're not hefty!" (C) Otherwise, be beaten ...
              1. kalibr
                15 November 2020 16: 18
                +1
                I don’t refuse ...
  • kalibr
    15 November 2020 18: 51
    +2
    Quote: Dalny V
    the true nature of the author

    I will reveal it to you further. You will be horrified! "Everything to friends, to enemies - the law!" How does it feel?
  • tlauicol
    tlauicol 14 November 2020 05: 29
    10
    I remember how I, getting 5s in history, suddenly started grabbing XNUMXs in high school. It turns out that I ranked the Socialist Party as a "rightist" (well, of course: "our cause is right"), and any monarchist-nationalists to the left. And for a long time he was confused in this matter.
    By the way, it would be useful to study Russian and foreign history simultaneously, in one textbook. good
    1. depressant
      depressant 14 November 2020 11: 20
      +9
      Here I agree, colleague Tlahuikol. The history of each country is studied as if other countries do not exist in principle. They are remembered only in connection with trade relations, or with the war.

      I would like to dwell on something else. On the difference between an almost exact, non-politicized science, which is mathematics, from a politicized history.
      Here is a mathematician, namely me. An idea that you do not expect falls on me, it came, not otherwise from the noosphere, and I become a slave to the idea. I take two sheets of cheap paper, within 20 minutes I write down the proof that is 100500% correct, and then years - years follow! - the design of these 2 sheets into a correct, consistently swelling proof, requiring a lot of side studies and lemmas that lead away from the main idea and, it would seem, are not necessary, but in fact necessary so that someone sophisticated does not discard my now gigantic work, reaching the place where I slipped, and would not say: "I will not read this further!"
      Thus, the idea is from God, obsession and years of hard labor.
      And here's a story for you, colleagues. Where does the idea come from? From God? Yes, not at all! Ultimately, it depends on the needs of the government, which either rules at the moment, or is going to replace the current one, and it needs a justification of its right to do so.
      The historian has grasped the need! And years of work, selection of appropriate material, processing, and the work was published out of their own need for material well-being. And if the skill is perfected, then years of work are not needed, a good memory suggests which works of comrades in the profession should be referred to and which ones should be bypassed.
      Life is good for historians! It is difficult, like any scientist, but good. Their profession is always in demand)))

      But my speech is not against Vyacheslav Olegovich and Author Ryzhov)) When ancient history and weapons become the subject of discussion, their models are definitely a readable position)))
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 14 November 2020 19: 05
        +1
        My respect, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
        But mathematics is just as much an exact science as history. Physics is much more accurate.
        1. depressant
          depressant 14 November 2020 19: 34
          +5
          Yes, that's why I say that mathematics is almost accurate, there are a lot of assumptions)) I have discarded the belief that numbers that differ by an infinitely small amount obey the same law, and the conclusions are amazing. This is my difficulty. But physics ... Its conclusions are corrected by practice, it is in constant motion)))
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 14 November 2020 20: 04
            +1
            Exactly! Physicists say: give us the exact number, after the decimal point, and we will turn the world! And mathematicians: we fundamentally doubt the positive values ​​of the equation, but we will agree!
            1. depressant
              depressant 14 November 2020 20: 27
              +4
              But physicists are not able to foresee everything. When the Duga radar station was built in the Pripyat zone, we encountered an effect that no one expected. The radar made contact with the celestial sphere, simply based on the mechanical component of its design, - she began to sing! Now there is only one complex of either five or six, but it is monstrous, overwhelmingly huge! And when the wind blows, the complex sings. This is incomparable, divine, cosmic music, which the orchestra can hardly reproduce. Even the music from the EVE spaceship does not come close due to the fact that it was created by man. The music of the "Duga" complex is written in the sky)))
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 14 November 2020 22: 05
                +7
                Lyudmila Yakovlevna, forgive me, for God's sake, but any cheap trunk on the roof of a car gives out such roulades at a speed of 90 km / h, just right for the next episode of "Star Wars" to write music. "Oscar" in this nomination is guaranteed!
          2. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 15 November 2020 15: 44
            +4
            I have thrown away the belief that numbers differing by an infinitesimal amount obey the same law, and the conclusions are amazing.

            Lyudmila Yakovlevna! You came out of the continuum hypothesis, but the same was done when describing in the physics of microparticles, when you had to invent "unfinished probability densities" - psi-functions to describe the motion of electrons. I usually give students such an example - in classical matan, theorems on continuity are used everywhere when we work with real numbers. and between any adjacent real numbers there is an infinite set of them. And this is very helpful. But let's take a specific object - a metal ruler and start dividing it in half. As long as the number of atoms in the obtained segment is very large, then everything is fine, our device allows to adequately describe the properties of the segment. But the partition became so small that an atom got into the right segment, but not the left one. Everything. Old math doesn't work, new math is needed. This is where psi functions come in. Do you have a different approach, or refinement of psi-functions in the absence of a continuum?
            1. depressant
              depressant 15 November 2020 16: 25
              +5
              Neither, colleague Aviator_, I'm developing power series equations of state, basic functions. There, such miracles were revealed that sometimes I get the feeling that numbers have their own civilization)))
              1. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 15 November 2020 16: 45
                +3
                I am far from this, and I deal with the equations of state only in the section "thermodynamics". Mathematics has its own inexplicable charm, so after dull (for me) finite-difference equations, I was resting in the wonderful world of TFKP. It was during my graduate school. And in my life I am still doing applied experimental things, where sometimes the most difficult thing is to persuade the locksmith to make the part as it should.
                1. Phil77
                  Phil77 15 November 2020 16: 56
                  +3
                  Quote: Aviator_
                  locksmith to make the part as it should.

                  Good evening! Are you SPEAKING? Or is it simpler, because the qualifications of this locksmith are not sufficient for the exact execution of the order, therefore it is necessary * on fingers * to explain the disease as it should?
                  1. Aviator_
                    Aviator_ 15 November 2020 18: 28
                    +4
                    First, you need to convince him that he can do it, and then achieve accurate execution, which does not immediately work out.
                    1. Phil77
                      Phil77 15 November 2020 19: 29
                      +3
                      Quote: Aviator_
                      it can

                      Sorry for the curiosity, but what is the rank of a specialist and what is his specialization?
                      1. Aviator_
                        Aviator_ 15 November 2020 19: 33
                        +3
                        Sixth. Milling cutter and turner. There are few of them left.
                      2. Phil77
                        Phil77 15 November 2020 19: 39
                        +4
                        I thought you were a locksmith. And a milling machine and a turner in my factory also in a single copy. There were two in each profession, but ... One decided to preserve his health / pensioner, over 70 years old /, and the other also spat on everything and Also retired, but younger, 66 years old.
                        What's next? Sadness.
                      3. Aviator_
                        Aviator_ 15 November 2020 19: 42
                        +4
                        I had a fitter-assembler of optical equipment. But for a long time. He was old, he left 10 years ago - his eyesight was completely lost. He had to first explain what I actually need, and then he offered his solution and, if it fit, he did it.
    2. Hantengri
      Hantengri 14 November 2020 21: 29
      +4
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      My respect, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
      But mathematics is just as much an exact science as history. Physics is much more accurate.

      Anton hi , physics cannot be more precise than mathematics. since it depends entirely on the mat. apparatus. And => has exactly the accuracy that he allows her to have.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 14 November 2020 21: 51
        +2
        Igor! hi
        Can you give me an example when "imaginary numbers" are practiced in physics?
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 14 November 2020 22: 06
          +6
          Sorry to interrupt the conversation, but as a professional physicist I can add that without TFKP (the theory of functions of complex variables) it is much more difficult to write down the equations of wave propagation. And to calculate the behavior of an e / m wave at the boundary of different media too. I'm not talking about the calculation of AC circuits.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 14 November 2020 22: 24
            +2
            But after all, mathematics, without a concrete application to practice, remains a "detached mentalization", like theology, which you confirmed with the following commentary.
            1. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 14 November 2020 22: 59
              +3
              I completely agree with you. Moreover, very often, at first, new mathematical techniques are used in practice, and later mathematicians give explanations for them. So even at the beginning of the XNUMXth century, the great mathematicians of that time (Laplace and others) argued about the possibility of the existence of a geometry different from Euclidean, however, from the middle of the XNUMXth century, the Mercator cartographic projection was known, which was successfully used by sailors far from mathematical discussions. Remember, parallel meridians intersect at the poles - the geometry is non-Euclidean.
        2. Hantengri
          Hantengri 14 November 2020 22: 10
          +4
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          Igor! hi
          Can you give me an example when "imaginary numbers" are practiced in physics?

          In hydrodynamics (when describing when describing wave motions), when analyzing alternating current circuits, when describing the propagation of radio waves. But it's better to try Kwas. He will tell you in detail.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 14 November 2020 22: 28
            +3
            OK. I'll ask on occasion. It became interesting which of him is a popularizer! laughing
            1. Kwas
              Kwas 15 November 2020 20: 22
              +2
              Well, I got into this only when calculating those very AC circuits. Filters count like that.
      2. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 14 November 2020 22: 09
        +8
        Igor, physics is a natural science, and mathematics is abstract. Mathematics is a tool used in various natural sciences, especially in physics.
      3. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 14 November 2020 22: 45
        +6
        In addition, Zeno's paradox is purely speculative crap, and the rate of fall is quite specific, in which you do not measure.
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 14 November 2020 23: 35
          +3
          And how to determine how close to reality are our current ideas, about the mechanism of the emergence of force, this fall causing? tongue
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 14 November 2020 23: 46
            +1
            No, pure anthropocentrism, and nothing more!
            Understanding the mechanism of such a baida as gravitation remains at the level of understanding the question "why all women are fools, and men are assholes".
          2. Kwas
            Kwas 15 November 2020 20: 28
            +3
            What did you want to be a theoretician? You should have written a theory of gravity.
            1. Hantengri
              Hantengri 15 November 2020 20: 46
              +2
              No, less than the General Theory of Everything, I do not agree.
              1. Kwas
                Kwas 15 November 2020 22: 09
                +2
                So it was already written in ancient China.
                1. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 15 November 2020 23: 50
                  +1
                  Are you talking about Canon of Changes? So this is just the General Theory of Movement of the social form of matter.
        2. depressant
          depressant 14 November 2020 23: 40
          +4
          So, Anton, about the singing of the motors))) Three hundred meters from my house, from its side overlooking the sunset, there is an intercity highway along which dense streams of cars are moving - cars, trucks, buses, minibuses. Now, due to the crown, there are fewer of them, but the number of heavy trucks has not diminished. And my room, the one with a window to the sunset, is practically empty. And the varied singing of distant motors against the background of rustling tires, reflecting off the walls, adds up to a picture of acusic interference, such as if I were present at an a cappello concert. Sometimes it all sounds like a church choir. But more often it looks like a drawn-out, tragic groan of a trumpet against the background of worried human voices. And this is music, not cacophony. It's as if people who are scared to death are trying to survive some kind of impending cataclysm, and the sad pipe scares everything, everything calls them somewhere.
          Especially beautiful and sad, and sometimes scary and even menacing, all this music of the spheres sounds after three nights. Before the era of the coronavirus, even during the day, one could hear on the street, which had never happened before. And unexpectedly loud.
          Usually only individual machines are soloed. I don’t understand - either cars or trucks. And in this regard, I often recall the tragic music that grows to an unbearable volume in the Red Building from The Doomed City. I'm used to listening to the road.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 14 November 2020 23: 54
            +5
            Lyudmila Yakovlevna! That enthusiastic girl who read the legend about Asol still lives in you. good
            1. depressant
              depressant 15 November 2020 00: 26
              +4
              Anton, a lot of things have accumulated in my soul, nothing dies. Especially great bitterness. I'm used to not only listening to the road, but living with my bitterness. A person gets used to everything. But it happens that not always.
              Generally )))))
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 15 November 2020 15: 59
    +6
    Here is a mathematician, namely me. An idea that you do not expect falls on me, it came, not otherwise from the noosphere, and I become a slave to the idea.

    Dear Lyudmila Yakovlevna! It's just enviable that at present there are still people obsessed with ideas that have fallen "from the noosphere." Everything is more prosaic for me. When the USSR collapsed along with my doctoral dissertation (this direction was closed, it is impossible to revive it here, but let them think over it overseas, I do not intend to help), and so, then he himself took another topic from life, very necessary, conducted an analysis of the possibilities , made theoretical assessments, received small funds for the experiment, conducted it, received the desired signal and began to beat the thresholds of offices that allocate funds for R&D. It almost worked out. But in the end the tender was "won" by a rather ordinary office that repeated the foreign single-channel model. Now for over 10 years I have been dealing with the third topic, not taken from the "noosphere". That's how we live.
    1. depressant
      depressant 15 November 2020 16: 54
      +5
      Dear colleague Aviator_, I do not hope for anything either. My topic is huge, it requires an enormous investment of formal work, but I spend it because the need for it is higher than me, much stronger than my need to resist it. If possible, I will publish it on some website. After all, I have everything I need: a pack of paper and a pen. I'll find a computer when I need it.
      But everything is not so with you, and I very much sympathize with you. Because there are types of developments that require either factory design in the form of a product on finished equipment, or in the form of a technological process, which in turn requires the manufacture of new types of equipment, tooling, or even the entire technological line.
      And which of the investors will do this? They never believe in the stability of the existing political and economic order, they don't! I assure you, they know more in this regard than we do. They seem to have a presentiment. Therefore, their task is to snatch at high speed what is possible, what is escaping, and at hour X to jump from a high start abroad. They don't need anything new. The country is filled with the ruins of huge factories, military warehouses, bunkers, all sorts of small industries, everything is overgrown with forest. Up to the point that even giant unfinished spillways are found. Ruins ... And you are proposing something new.
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 15 November 2020 18: 44
        +5
        Of course, I suggest something new. At least one graduate student of mine is working on this. Wayward like a goat. But smart, I myself am surprised. And I don't even pay attention to the ruins, my eyes are stale. And the forest on the site of the volleyball court is already familiar to me. So if nothing is done, then there will be no revival of the country, so we are trying. A friend traveled for 10 years in a row to the same science center in China and described how they are developing. And we have stagnation, only not Brezhnev, but capitalist.
        1. depressant
          depressant 15 November 2020 18: 49
          +6
          Colleague Aviator_, God give you strength on your difficult journey! On people like you, all our hope hi
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 15 November 2020 18: 52
            +5
            And to you, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, success and good students and graduate students. I have always respected mathematicians, because it was difficult for me. Physics is easier for me. hi
  • Van 16
    Van 16 14 November 2020 05: 43
    11
    I don’t understand at all how one can not be interested in history. This is interesting!
    I remember that during the summer holidays I always read the history textbook, which we will study, from cover to cover (we remained from the elder brother). But of course, I don't remember such textbooks as in the pictures, I studied later, in the 70s.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 14 November 2020 07: 38
      +9
      I remember that during the summer holidays I always read the history textbook from cover to cover, which we will study
      Same. Only borrowed from the school library. He studied in the 80s.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 14 November 2020 07: 59
        +9
        Likewise. I just read it right away when the textbooks for the next year were handed out.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 09: 00
          10
          But there were also gorgeous Readers with myths and legends! Extensive additional literature, especially on the ancient world and the Middle Ages. Well, the cult of the book Druon, Hugo, Karamzin, Soloviev, Klyuchevsky, Dumas, Pikul and others. For subscriptions they stood in queues at night, handed in waste paper. I remember the reprint of Karamzin's Complete Works in the 90s was at the level of a small armageddon !!!
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 14 November 2020 09: 15
            +9
            It was also customary to go to libraries.
            Domestic authors - Stepan Zlobin and others.

            A. K. Tolstoy is the key to much. His every ballad is mesmerizing. This is already from the home library.

            Pikul in the late 80s - early 90s was highly quoted in the comparative book evaluation.

            Another revelation was Merezhkovsky's trilogy. First of all, "The Risen Gods".
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 14 November 2020 09: 56
              +8
              Quote: Korsar4
              It was also customary to go to libraries.

              Hello, Sergey!
              And that was also! I went to school and children's libraries. Before the army I went to an adult. But now? Surely not. Hence the question. Now the libraries are free? I mean ordinary, not specialized. I just do not have information. hi
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 14 November 2020 10: 02
                +6
                As far as I understand, yes. But I haven't been going to the district one for 15 years.

                Yes, and to be honest, regular visits to Leninka, the Central National Academy of Art and Science and Inostranka remained in graduate student time.
              2. kalibr
                14 November 2020 10: 17
                +7
                Quote: Phil77
                Libraries are free now, I mean ordinary ones, not specialized ones, I just don't have the information.

                Yes, free. There are two next to my house: a regional youth and a children's one. Real enthusiasts work there, hold a lot of all kinds of events, one is more interesting than the other! Children go in large numbers ... And I carry my books there from my library ... And they, along with others, donate them to rural libraries ...
                1. Phil77
                  Phil77 14 November 2020 10: 23
                  +7
                  Quote: kalibr
                  And I carry my books from my library there ...

                  Greetings, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
                  Congratulations on the next one! an interesting article! Well, as always during the discussion, there is some kind of * nostalgia *, eh? Which is wonderful.
                  1. kalibr
                    14 November 2020 11: 07
                    +4
                    And to you from me, Sergey, all best wishes !!! And there is always nostalgia. It's just that some tall trees and sweet apples froze everything, while others don't ...
            2. Van 16
              Van 16 14 November 2020 10: 01
              +7
              And there were so many children's books! "The Tale of Demidka and the Copper Penny", "Jack Straw", "The Adventures of Kuksha", etc. read to the holes.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 14 November 2020 10: 06
                +9
                Yes. It was a system. And they went to libraries both at the place of residence and in the summer.
              2. Phil77
                Phil77 14 November 2020 10: 07
                +7
                Quote: Van 16
                And there were so many children's books!

                Sadovnikov! * Adventure Seller *! Literally read it! Many times! Melentyev * Black Light *. * March 33 *, * Blue People of the Pink Land *! The name is perceived a little ambiguously today, eh? laughing
                1. Van 16
                  Van 16 14 November 2020 12: 04
                  +7
                  Sergei hi , these are unforgettable books! I was still reading "Solnyshkin's sailing"))
                  Above, I just listed children's, so to speak, historical books.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 14 November 2020 19: 16
                    +5
                    "Sailing Solnyshkina" is generally a classic! Along with "Vrungel".
                2. Van 16
                  Van 16 14 November 2020 12: 47
                  +6
                  About the ambiguity. At one time I read a book about our scouts - paratroopers in the Great Patriotic War, called "Blue Soldiers", the book, by the way, is wonderful.
                  Oh, what color they ruined ..
    2. Esoteric
      Esoteric 14 November 2020 10: 11
      +3
      History of history strife. I remember looking at the illustration as a trireme at a young age, and immediately wondered. And how they moved such heavy oars of the second and third rows. For the thinking was technical, not humanitarian. And these towers are used in the siege of fortresses, on wheels, and axles that would certainly break from the weight of the structure. And mud, mud, and how to carry them - push them? And all these multimillion-dollar armies of the ancient world, sorry, what did they eat - drink, and where did such a patriarchal society find the means, the metals to arm these millions?
      And since I don’t believe in Houdini and the words “King, Khan ordered”, and my thinking is technical, questions arose for orthodox historians. And Trireme is nonsense cubed. Ask an engineer, a friend, to calculate for you the weight of the oar, not even the third, second row, as well as its dimensions, and it will be immediately clear that this is complete nonsense.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 14: 52
        +4
        Who about what, and lousy about the bath!
        Your engineer is a poor student and a truant.

        Trier (trime) - Olympia! Three rows of oars, one rower per oar, and "such a reptile" swims !!!
        I am ready to discuss the giants of the "Syracuse" Archimedes, catamarans - Deonisy, Deodokh and Pantelimeev. The armored sixes of Agrippa and Lepidus!
        But triremes (triremes) have been found in great numbers by archaeologists and studied. So do not disgrace yourself.
        1. Esoteric
          Esoteric 14 November 2020 17: 04
          0
          And where is the modern building? I'm wondering how this could walk on water:
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 17: 35
            +5
            Olympia is made with the technology of the Battle of Salamis! From calculations of archaeological excavations in Zeya. As well as archaeological finds near the Italian coast of Trier and Trier of the ancient world.
            A Roman wonder, with battle towers and a raven!
            It did not walk on the seas, it floated like "g in the hole"!
            Years of the First Punic War, Rome replicated hundreds of them. And even won victories on them. Transforming classic naval battles with quintuses (boarding bridges) into land battles. The Romans swam only along the coast. They molested the shore at night. Their rowing system corresponded to the trophy Carthaginian "four". So there were no problems with the oars. In the stowed position, the quintus lay on the deck. Perhaps he became the forerunner of the Curonian Mediterranean galley.
            Well, about the losses. At the start of the first Punic War, the people and the Senate of Rome lost over 800 ships due to storms and hurricanes. Three times Rome refused from the fleet, but the realities forced it to revive.
            And finally, your drawing is modern and does not correspond to reality.
            The rowing deck always ran from bow to stern. It was arranged in three rows. Two people were rowing on the top row. The bottom row was used only in battle. Coal was already used, but the seating was perpendicular rather than diagonal before liburn.
            The tower, however, was a collapsible frame and covered with the skin of bulls. And it appeared only during the Macedonian Wars!
            1. Kwas
              Kwas 15 November 2020 20: 42
              +2
              All this is of course wonderful, but for some time now I have been tormented by the question "how were the movements of the oars of different rows coordinated?" - if indeed three or more in-line ships were ...
              After all, the point is that the oars are of different lengths, therefore, a different moment of inertia, therefore, a different moment of force is needed to move them synchronously. And if you do not move synchronously, they will get confused. So for now, I think that such ships, most likely, simply did not exist.
              If you have an answer to this question, educate.
        2. Esoteric
          Esoteric 14 November 2020 17: 14
          -1
          The founders of Olympia have deceived everyone. The method of joining the boards used by them is impossible without the use of high-carbon steel tools. Trireme, and the possibility of its existence is perfectly described here: https: //monster.livejournal.com/54948.html
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 17: 52
            +5
            The dowel system for collecting boards in shipbuilding was used even in the times of the Cretan-Minoan civilization. There was no iron yet. The boards became boring in the form of half-timbers, but they were nagged and dowels were! Confirmed by archaeological finds.
            For the hamsters from the site you gave, the hulls were made of Lebanese cedar or pine (black ships, red ships). Both types of wood are soft and are served by processing with bronze, and not that with iron.
            And last but not least, our boats also had a smooth sheathing !!! Or do you think the Slavs had a milling machine? All this is confirmed by archeology! In Germany alone, at least 4 of ours and Polabian rooks and baits were exhibited !!! The base was an oak monuskil, and the sides were raised with pine boards on dowels and tongue-and-groove piles.
            Later, cast-iron Chusovsky barges, Volga barks and Belyany were built with a dowel system !!! Probably you assume the presence of an electric drill in the Volga basin or at Demidov's Shaitansky plant?
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 14 November 2020 18: 20
              +6
              Right. Both pine and cedar are fairly easy to handle. Another thing is that there were certain requirements for the very quality of the barrel. Until now, in the English language literature, conifers are called "softwood".

              It is clear that larch is a separate conversation.
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 18: 10
            +5
            Quote: Ezoterik
            The founders of Olympia have deceived everyone. The method of joining the boards used by them is impossible without the use of high-carbon steel tools. Trireme, and the possibility of its existence is perfectly described here: https: //monster.livejournal.com/54948.html

            Looked, laughed!
            This is the post-deviant behavior of our intelligentsia. Which you don't feed with honey, but you need to remove something. At the same time, there were no practical skills, and in their hands they only held their own "pip".
            For the poor, there are two children's writers Stepanov and Ivanov, to increase knowledge on this issue, you can start with them. Then you can get confused with Stenzel, and so on!
            Or it is banal to read about archaeological finds on the Black and Mediterranean Sea !!!
            Although I suggest everyone to go to St. Petersburg and look at the model Parma "Perun".
            After that, the neophytes get an insight!
            At the dawn of a violent youth, I raft down Chusovaya on a cast-iron barge, with an 8-meter pot! So when asked how it is possible to row a three-meter oar, I remember “give me the lever, I will turn the world” !!!
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 14 November 2020 19: 09
              +7
              Archimedes got a little excited. Sopromat could disagree with him.
              But the phrase is aphoristic.

              And he himself took place in all forms.
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 November 2020 06: 25
                +3
                Sergei, of course, got excited, but we know from sources that a monster of the ancient world "Syracuse" was built according to his project! And according to eyewitnesses, she swam "a reptile"! True, Heron gave it to Egypt. She really did not fit into the harbors of Sicily, but mentions of her are crossed and for almost a quarter of a century! So the "child" was and sailed the Mediterranean!
                Archimedes himself is really clever, only his screw could immortalize him by his name in history !!!
                By the way, one of his cars drowned a Roman trireme, which inadvertently approached the harbor, with the help of the notorious lever.
                And after that they tell me - there were no triremes or triremes, because my friend, an engineer, had counted! Don't tell my claws! laughing
                Regards, Vlad!
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 15 November 2020 07: 43
                  +4
                  Dragon, with scales of lead.
                  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 November 2020 08: 45
                    +4
                    Quote: Korsar4
                    Dragon, with scales of lead.

                    Dear Sergey did not catch the meaning! Or is this how you expressed to me your doubts about my confidence in the existence of Syracuse?
                    By the way, near Cape Akatsium, underwater archaeologists have found many bronze rams. It is assumed that these are the victims of one of the storms of the First Punic War. During its formation, Rome lost one fleet after another on a colossal scale from bad weather.
                    Lead finishing of the underwater part of the dormons was practiced in Byzantium.
                    If I'm not mistaken, the ships found on Lake Neuro in Italy had the lead underwater part! That's what is truly a pity, if not the Second World War, they would have been an unsurpassed adornment of the Italian maritime collection !!!
                    All stop again suffered!
                    Have a good weekend everyone!
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 15 November 2020 08: 53
                      +4
                      There are too many details and details to be fiction.

                      After all, it is believed that they created lead sheathing, including in order to combat fouling.
                    2. Esoteric
                      Esoteric 15 November 2020 14: 16
                      0
                      Rome, during its formation, was losing one fleet after another from bad weather on a colossal scale

                      What a rich Rome, however. He lost the fleet, and immediately restored them. Well, yes, they grow sesterces on trees, or Apollo gives them. Magic -s ..
                      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 November 2020 15: 56
                        +3
                        Google how long the First and Second Punic Wars lasted!
                      2. Esoteric
                        Esoteric 15 November 2020 17: 54
                        0
                        Economics is the head of everything. Money is the most important thing, it is the blood of the economy. Its laws are immutable. As much as the king of England would not want to build a bridge across the English Channel, he would not do a damn thing. He could command as much as he wanted, and collect as many slaves for construction as he wanted. But I wouldn't have built it.
                        Even if technology allowed, but the budget would not grow together, and if you cut heads, don't cut them, you won't see the bridge.
                        The economy and money rule the world, and they ruled, and the wishes of the rulers remain with them. There will be no bridge.
                  2. Esoteric
                    Esoteric 15 November 2020 14: 20
                    -1
                    Always, at all times, everything was ruled by the economy. What is needed for a war? Money. What else? A lot, a lot of money. But by some miracle this does not apply to the ancient world.
                    Well, yes, there was magic. Chukh puff, gibberish Pallas Athena, and you go to count the money in the treasury, for she is kind Athena, she helped as best she could.
                    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 November 2020 16: 21
                      +3
                      Did aliens build the pyramids of the pharaohs? Before carrying heresy, ask how the slave system differs from the capitalist one!
                      The slave does not ask for money, he plows.
                      Yes, he is not particularly drawn to the barricades, since there are mechanisms of social elevators.
                      For example, during the Battle of Marathon, the second line behind the Athenian hoplites was their slaves!
                      During the defense of Themistocles, there were 7 lightly armed slaves of helots for one Spartan of Tsar Leonidas.
                      In the Roman Empire, freedmen commanded fleets!
                      But most importantly, other money was secondary in the formation of the economy. Polises and states were self-sufficient. The technologies are simple and repeatable.
                      In 1977 the riddle of the large number and speed of construction of the Roman fleets was solved. On the Italian coast, archaeologists have found the remains of the Roman kardirema. Every detail of the ship had numbered notches in Roman numerals.
                      This confirmed the lines of Pelinius that the Romans built their fleets according to templates, collecting them in Ostia. In addition, a re-examination of the remains of this ship in 2002, confirmed that it was built from raw forest. All of this had a detrimental effect on its durability and structural strength.
                    2. Esoteric
                      Esoteric 15 November 2020 17: 44
                      -1
                      Slave labor is completely ineffective. The slave does not care about the quality, beat him, do not beat him, he does not care. The products produced by slaves are first-class trash.
                      Slaves cost money, they must be fed, clothed. They are not cheap. Sometimes the masters of the slave owners are kicked up and cut out, in a cruel way, which is right.
                      And money rules in a slave society. And war is expensive, very expensive. So where does the money come from?
                    3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 November 2020 18: 55
                      +3
                      Slave labor is completely ineffective. The slave does not care about the quality, beat him, do not beat him, he does not care. The products produced by slaves are first-class trash.
                      Slaves cost money, they must be fed, clothed. They are not cheap. Sometimes the masters of the slave owners are kicked up and cut out, in a cruel way, which is right.
                      And money rules in a slave society. And war is expensive, very expensive. So where does the money come from?

                      You tell Tutankhamun this!
                      In order for the slave to plow there was an institution of kind and sensitive overseers! Who, with all their love for the profession, reverently explained the foundations of the microeconomic processes of ancient Egypt, Persia and other states and policies! And with such tenderness that the slaves dug from here until sunset. And who didn’t dig, he didn’t eat and received lula. Assyrians were special souls; they ripped off the skin of a slave for any disobedience !!!
                      Read Plutarch or Fuclides for their understanding of slavery. There are Stoics that have survived to this day. In fact, a slave is not a person, but a thing! Instrument of labor, means of production. Sometimes it's cheaper than a donkey !!!
                    4. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 26 November 2020 04: 35
                      +1
                      For the Aztecs, the price of a rabbit was 10 cocoa beans. The price of a slave is 100.
    3. Esoteric
      Esoteric 15 November 2020 09: 51
      0
      Why, from the same site -https: //topwar.ru/31370-grebcy-i-vesla-otvet-na-statyu-rimskiy-flot-konstrukciya-i-tipy-korabley.html
      In my opinion it is extremely convincing, no?
      All these "triremes" are nonsense. They are not nonsense, only if the term trireme does not mean three rows of oars, but Three people per oar. Then everything is fine, and it falls into place, and no one looks like an idiot.
      Waiting for your reply. The original source of your article quoted from a shipbuilding engineer.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 November 2020 10: 22
        +4
        God sent me a test! Have you read anyone other than Homer from the ancient Greeks and Romans !!! laughing
        Zarada, Fuclid, Aristotle, Herodotus, Pelinius, Plutarch, Canton, Virgil and others did not have the Internet, personal Instogram and Twitter personal! All for junk!
        Even Pythagoras, describing the existence of Socrates, mentioned Trier !!!
        What education do you have? If you don't know the basics and history of philosophy?
        My advice, the nightmare with a curved will end, go to Zeya near Athens, there you will see everything personally!
        1. Esoteric
          Esoteric 15 November 2020 11: 23
          +2
          If you believe all the ancient Greeks, then I must absolutely believe the same Plato. Hence Atlantis existed in reality. And she was exactly the same as in the works of Plato. And then I believe, I don’t believe here, here the chronicler is mistaken, the contemporary did not understand what he sees, until historians from the 20th century explained to him.
          I will never believe in the millions of armies of the ancient world, because such a boring thing as the economy will simply not allow this.
          Yes, I know that the same Kizhi were built with an ordinary ax, and now it is impossible to repeat this, the masters are such. That does not negate the most accurate mathematical calculations when designing such a nonsense as a trireme. Which, by the way, went somewhere with the end of the ancient centuries. Galleys of all nations had one row of oars. Well, it’s obvious that the stupid people went later, they did not understand all the power and charm of the three-row vessel. smile
          Best regards to you! I don’t know much, and I don’t hide it, not Bar smile
          But common sense simply cries out when you read numerous gems in historical works. Everything there, such an impression, by a pike's will, money for all the fun, such an impression is pouring from the sky.
          Well, what about philosophy "hooked" on Collingwood. His thoughts seem to me absolutely logical.

        2. Esoteric
          Esoteric 15 November 2020 12: 03
          0
          And the critical attitude to everything began when I was amazed to learn that at 15! century, the magnificent Chinese, in particular their admiral-shipbuilder, managed to pile 300 ships with a tonnage of 3000 tons, 140 in length! meters and a width of 50.
          Although the ships were flat-bottomed, well, just for the ocean, they carried 9! masts, and the team were not offended - as many as 2900 people.
          And he swam to Africa.
          Well, there are simply no censorship words here. And in fact in this naked, forgive, they believe nonsense. They really believe.
          Reading such nonsense everyone weeps - engineers, shipbuilders, sane, but historians believe. Explain how this can be taken as true? I can't understand.
        3. Kwas
          Kwas 15 November 2020 20: 57
          0
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Even Pythagoras, describing the existence of Socrates, mentioned Trier !!!

          By the way, did he (and other contemporary authors) say that these are ships with three rows of oars? Or was it someone else who came up with it later?
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 November 2020 16: 44
        +2
        They are not nonsense, only if the term trireme does not mean three rows of oars, but Three people per oar. Then everything is fine, and falls into place, and no one looks like an idiot.

        I don't even know how to react to you, you want the harsh truth of life! Then catch, MEDITERRANEAN GALERS FROM 11 TO 14 CENTURIES (Venetian up to 16 century) USED ONE PERSON FOR OAR THREE IN A DIAGONAL ROW. ATTENTION - ALL THREE OARS PASSED THROUGH ONE ROCKER PORT... Read twice, which is simpler, three separate oar ports, the top two with a coal. So three, four or more rowers began to sit on one oar only from the 14-15th centuries !!! Turks from the 15th century, Venetians from the 16th century!
        Two people on the oar, this is a further development of triremes with the advent of the coal. The first appear at Carthage, then spread to Syracuse, Athens, Corinth. Gradually comes to fives, sixes and sevens. Next are the catamarans of Deonisy, Diodokh and Pantelemeev.
        The latter were already only two in-line. But the revolution in rowing took place with the advent of the liburn and andraphages with diagonal seating! After three-row ships were not built. But this happened after the Second Punic War !!!
        Download Ivanov, Renaissance galleys happiness will come with you!
        1. Kwas
          Kwas 15 November 2020 21: 02
          +2
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          USED ​​ONE PERSON PER OAR THREE PER DIAGONAL ROW. ATTENTION - ALL THREE OARS PASSED THROUGH ONE ROCKER PORT.

          If not broke, throw a picture, pliz. hi I can’t imagine this to myself!
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 16 November 2020 03: 47
            +1

            Venetian galia grosse or merchant galley, a Venetian manuscript from the mid-XNUMXth century. Notice the paddles arranged in alia sensile, that is, in groups of three. The galley carries an impressive sailing armament, uncharacteristic of a battle galley.
            Description of the system itself and the history of its development according to Ivanov (Renaissance galleys).
            Even the design of merchant galleys was regulated by law, all the more so for battle galleys built by order of the state. By 1300, there were rules that ordered rowers to be seated in one tier, and the benches should be placed at an angle to the side (usually deviated towards the stern from the centerline). On the bench sat two, three or more rowers, each with its own oar. The oars of the rowers of one bench were grouped, as they passed through one rowing port. This system, known as terzarulo, was later rethought as a type of galley with a similar arrangement of oars. So that the rowers could row synchronously with oars of different lengths, the oars were balanced with the help of paddlers. This device, known as apostis, was used in ancient times, but it was forgotten for some time and only appeared at the end of the XNUMXth century. Utlegar supported the oar, and also to some extent protected the board from ramming strikes and could be used by soldiers for boarding if a flooring was made on top of the paddlers (this has been practiced since the XNUMXth century). But most importantly, thanks to the paddle, the lever arm increased, since the fulcrum of the oar was far from the rower. At first, one of the three oars passed below the paddle, but by the end of the XNUMXth century, all three oars were put on the paddle. In the first of these Italian galleys, the oars were grouped in two, which meant that there were two oarsmen on each bench. By the XIV century, a third rower was seated on each bench, which made it possible to rotate the rowers, giving one of the three rest. Soon the free rower was occupied with permanent work, now from each bench they rowed with three oars. The terzarulo system was also called alia sensile. Three oars per bench remained the norm throughout the XNUMXth century.

            Specially, a colleague brought a terribly extensive quote, I hope the Author will forgive me. By the way, this was fixed by the charters of workshops, shipyards and laws. The Venetians performed them as dogma until the middle of the 16th century. Turkish penal servitude and shebkas had a similar rowing system. Only after Lepanto, rowing schemes for two or more people on the paddle begin to appear! A maximum of 8 was established empirically by the Spaniards and Genoese. Later, when designing the parma, the Swedes and our shipbuilders came to these conclusions.
            Best regards, I hope I helped figure it out!
            1. Kwas
              Kwas 17 November 2020 20: 45
              +1
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

              Best regards, I hope I helped figure it out!

              At least think and sort it out. But doubts remained, and even questions. In particular, the term utlegar (continuation of bowsprit) is strangely applied. I did not understand, I did not find another meaning anywhere. Well, and a rhetorical question - did the multiple rows of oars give any advantages? Wouldn't it be easier to take one big paddle and put three people behind it than to steam with three rows of oars?
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 November 2020 04: 47
                +1
                Efficiency !!! When the Spaniards and Genoese switched to your proposed scheme, several people per bike. It turned out that in order to maintain efficiency, it was necessary to sit four people on one bench instead of three. This increased the number of crew and the size of the galleys, but made it possible to use convicts and slaves as rowers. Now, instead of professionals (at the end of the 16th century, a rower in a Byzantine gallery received 10 ducats a month) with three oars, it was possible to put 3 criminals and 1 specialist at the oar. This path was ultimately followed by everyone except Venice and Turkey. These two countries held on to a three-in-one system to the last. Using a few man paddle approach, only for galleases and very large galleys, later artillery parma. Ultimately, in the 17th century, the following picture of rowing ships takes shape!
                Galeases, rowing frigates, parmas - from 4 to 8 people per paddle.
                Royal (admiral's) galleys - from 6 to 8 oarsmen per oar.
                Large (commercial Venetian) galleys - 4-5.
                Galleys - 4.
                Scampavey-3
                Galeotes - 2 rarely 3.
                Brigantines - 1-2.
                The French and the Spaniards tried to plant 9 people, but came to the conclusion that such a scheme was not effective. Later, the Swedes stepped on this rake.
                And finally, look for Zorich's work. He is one of the renowned experts in rowing boats of the ancient world.
                I have a lot on the topic, but on paper.
                On the spite of the day, I even wrote a draft article about rowing boats in Crete, but rested on the lack of illustrations and my inability to draw. Yes, and because of my position, I cannot engage in other activities other than creative, and the publication of a non-profile article can be recognized as journalistic activity. Therefore, I pressed "on the handbrake until retirement."
                If the question Instead is really interesting, you can send me your email address in a personal message, and I will send you my work. The only request is not to scold too much for mistakes, the article was left without an editor.
                Regards, Vlad!
    4. Esoteric
      Esoteric 15 November 2020 18: 26
      0
      Well, the pyramids and even more so aliens have nothing to do with it. But I ask, gentlemen of the materialists, to answer the following question. Where did the point that caused the Big Bang come from? Nowhere? So she took it and took it, so I wanted it. Everything came out of nothing. Yes? And where did all this actually expand, into what spaces, after all, they were not? Where did that explode come from at this point? Did it happen in a miraculous way? So who is a believer anyway? Materialists who have no idea from what "hangover" what exploded arose, where there was absolutely nothing. No space, no time, nothing at all. So where did this "point" come from, and what was in it?
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 November 2020 19: 10
        +2
        But I ask, gentlemen of the materialists, to answer the following question. Where did the point that caused the Big Bang come from?

        You ask your engineer a bad student this question !!! Someone who I have no relation to materialists !!! laughing
      2. Kwas
        Kwas 15 November 2020 21: 23
        +2
        As far as I understand, this is where the influence of religion on the minds of some physicists, that there should have been a beginning:
        "In a certain country there lived a Great Scientist, who once exclaimed - the world is finite, it had a beginning, and there will be an end. In another country and at another time there lived another Great Scientist, who once said - the world is infinite, it has always been and always will be. But neither of them suspected that their conclusions were determined by the structure of their language ... "
        And in this matter, some scientists behave like believers. But the rest can not say anything better than "we cannot deliver experience or make direct observations." So this is all pure theory, model.
        There is one more nonsense - the requirement to explain absolutely everything. Alas, a person will never know absolutely everything! And a person should have humility to accept this truth.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 16 November 2020 04: 22
          +2
          Quote: Kwas
          explain absolutely everything. Alas, a person will never know absolutely everything! And a person should have humility to accept this truth.


          My applause, the quote of the year from the Military Review website - definitely!
          I vote for you as the best commentator !!!
          Without mockery, you accurately and beautifully exposed the problem of differences on the branch of members of the forum and hamsters !!!
          The first, possessing knowledge, are critical of it, realizing that it is impossible to know everything and this process directly depends on the subject!
          The second are accustomed to being chewed up, stuffed into their heads and done in an interesting, creative and bright way. Hamsters won't open the source, it's easier to watch a video on YouTube. I flip through the book with the loud title "You have been deceived for 100 years." Read the article which traditionally begins "Why"!
          The only trouble is that the age of "Why" ends at 13-14 years old! Further, a young man or girl becomes a sensitive member of society who has rights and obligations !!! My daughter stopped going to my mother for advice on every occasion at the age of 12. Moreover, if she has a question, then it does not start with "why" for 6 years already.
          Therefore, I am amazed by the people who consider the VO site to be educational, and the articles as some kind of axiom!
          I think the community will support me, that it is necessary to treat everything critically, but the criticism should be justified and reasoned. In fact, the “gang of cat lovers (dog lovers) of traditionalists” to which, I refer myself, includes so many different people with so different worldviews, ideas and opinions that “even stay, at least fall”, while communicating mutually enrich!
          The arguments of the falkhistorians are monotonous, stereotyped and not interesting !!! However, it has always surprised me that a third force is always to blame for the conclusions of the Nyuchronolozhites and others like them? Phobias?
          On this, I think to finish !!!
          Evil Cat !!!
      3. Polymer
        Polymer 15 November 2020 22: 52
        +1
        Quote: Ezoterik
        But I ask, gentlemen of the materialists, to answer the following question. Where did the point that caused the Big Bang come from?

        I would not classify the supporters of the Big Bang Theory as materialists at all.
  • Esoteric
    Esoteric 15 November 2020 10: 14
    0
    "As for the Olympia. Well, yes, it seems, they finally built a ship with three rows of oars, which even sailed. But the seaworthiness of the newly-minted triremes leaves much to be desired. For its construction, precise mathematical and physical calculations were used (hello to the brilliant ancient Greeks). Construction of Olympia" "it cost 700 thousand dollars and took 2 years (it is worth marveling at the" powerful "polis economy of the Athenian village, which stamped triremes in hundreds within 1-2 years).
    Below is a link to an article from the same site - https://topwar.ru/31370-grebcy-i-vesla-otvet-na-statyu-rimskiy-flot-konstrukciya-i-tipy-korabley.html
    Everything is on the shelves there.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 November 2020 19: 06
      +2
      Did you hold an ax in your hands? I suggest you and your engineer cut down a log house for a bathhouse. Tools ax and two-handed saw !!! Go for it, I'm afraid you will only cut down the forest for two weeks. I will do it one in three days. Then you can describe to me a detailed process in writing, and I will tell you where it is and not so!
      Why, it’s commonplace, I have similar competencies and experience, but you don’t. It’s easier. You know when to cut wood, which side to trailer, how to cut branches and skin? Do you even know what the butt is, the devil?
      Restoring competencies was expensive. By the way, the athletes rowers sitting at the oars of Olympia were outraged that the benches were not mobile !!!
  • sergo1914
    sergo1914 14 November 2020 06: 15
    +9
    Of course, I am not a historian, but perhaps it was worth looking in the archives not for the “Dmitry Donskoy” column, but “the 38th tank regiment was formed on the basis of the NKO Directive No. 1104478ss of 17.09.1942 in Noginsk. According to the list number 29, the regiment was formed on the basis of the 470th brigade.
    November 14, 1942 subordinated to the 8th Estonian Rifle Corps (Kalinin Front).
    On March 8, 1944, the regiment received T-34-85 tanks from the Dimitri Donskoy tank column.
    Directive GShKA № Org / 3/310321 of 04.07.1944 (according to other data of the GShKA № Org / 3/310593 from 14.07.1944) 38th department. Dniester tank regiment, equipped with heavy tanks IS, was transferred to state number 010/460 (separate guards ttp "IS") and renamed 74th Guards. heavy tank Dniester regiment. "
    And it's not at all about the evil secret communists?

    PS About "helping" the son of a "friend" top, of course. They gave the poor thing the most difficult topic. But is it really not possible now, from the height of 66, that this is really help? Here's a non-trivial topic. Dig. No?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 14 November 2020 07: 01
      +6
      I am certainly not a historian,
      Quite right! Because historians work in archives so that you can then copy and paste information freely. Or did you personally visit the RGVA for the above quote?
    2. kalibr
      14 November 2020 07: 55
      +2
      Quote: sergo1914
      Here's a non-trivial topic. Dig. No?

      Sergei, I'll start with this. Non-trivial .. And what to dig? The editorials of Pravda? The collections "Mao's Personality Cult ... and Its Consequences" are rehash of the same Truth. We lived in the USSR. The work should be within the strength and capabilities of the student. Then I wrote about this ...
      1. sergo1914
        sergo1914 14 November 2020 08: 41
        +9
        Quote: kalibr
        Quote: sergo1914
        Here's a non-trivial topic. Dig. No?

        Sergei, I'll start with this. Non-trivial .. And what to dig? The editorials of Pravda? The collections "Mao's Personality Cult ... and Its Consequences" are rehash of the same Truth. We lived in the USSR. The work should be within the strength and capabilities of the student. Then I wrote about this ...


        The colonel, out of the kindness of his soul, gave me the theme of the “Juche idea” at Scientific Communism at the institute. 1988 year. Not at the historical institute. Nothing. Weekly shoveling student library. I nailed it. True, he blurted out something Menshevik-opportunist in defense. Oh, he yelled at me. But after that I did not begin to hate and humiliate the system. I liked the country in which I lived. I liked designing missiles and guns. And mom and dad weren't dragged into the industry by the ears. Mother is a primary school teacher, father is a locksmith at the SMP.
        1. kalibr
          14 November 2020 10: 12
          -1
          Quote: sergo1914
          But after that I did not begin to hate and humiliate

          A student's essay in 1988 and a candidate's dissertation on the history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in 1988 are different things, you must agree. The level of information content is different. You've been digging through the student library. I am in the archives of the Central Committee of the Komsomol and the archives of the OK KPSS. There is a difference? By the way, my thesis is now also on the Web and can be ordered and read.
          1. sergo1914
            sergo1914 14 November 2020 12: 32
            +2
            Quote: kalibr
            Quote: sergo1914
            But after that I did not begin to hate and humiliate

            A student's essay in 1988 and a candidate's dissertation on the history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in 1988 are different things, you must agree. The level of information content is different. You've been digging through the student library. I am in the archives of the Central Committee of the Komsomol and the archives of the OK KPSS. There is a difference? By the way, my thesis is now also on the Web and can be ordered and read.


            I'm not talking about my exclusiveness. I mean that in the student library, especially in the "older" university, you could find a lot of things. In my fourth year (1988), I was secretly in Faculty M, I was picking up a luxurious 1948 album. Blueprint A3. A thickness of 30 centimeters. Interrogations of German technical specialists about working with descriptions, diagrams and drawings. From outright delirium (throwing a net of metal chains in front of a flying bomber) to completely crazy ideas. Sov. Secret. A month walked, read, looked. Here's what to publish now. And even with the comments of the guru. But alas. And how many of these treasures are buried?
    3. kalibr
      14 November 2020 08: 10
      +1
      Quote: sergo1914
      it was worth looking in the archives not for the “Dmitry Donskoy” convoy, but “the 38th tank regiment was formed on the basis of the NCO Directive No. 1104478ss of 17.09.1942 in Noginsk. According to list number 29, the regiment was formed on the basis of the 470th brigade.
      November 14, 1942 subordinated to the 8th Estonian Rifle Corps (Kalinin Front).
      On March 8, 1944, the regiment received T-34-85 tanks from the Dimitri Donskoy tank column.
      Directive GShKA № Org / 3/310321 of 04.07.1944 (according to other data of the GShKA № Org / 3/310593 from 14.07.1944) 38th department. Dniester tank regiment, equipped with heavy tanks IS, was transferred to state number 010/460 (separate guards ttp "IS") and renamed 74th Guards. heavy tank Dniester regiment. "
      And it's not at all about the evil secret communists?

      That's right, Sergei! But do you really think that I was like that, excuse me, ... that I haven't found all this in a month, that none of the employees prompted me, huh? The difference between the archives "then" and "now" is heaven and earth. Then you wrote everything down in a notebook with numbered pages and handed it over for checking, leaving the archive, and if something went wrong, the text was blotted out, or the page was deleted, a seal was put, and the material from which you took it was FORBIDDEN TO RE-ISSUE! That's how it was then! The liberals of the current anti-people regime have spoiled you ...
      1. sergo1914
        sergo1914 14 November 2020 08: 44
        +7
        Quote: kalibr
        Then you wrote everything out in a notebook with numbered sheets, handed it over for checking, leaving the archive, and if something went wrong, the text was blotted out, or the page was deleted, a seal was put.


        The sheets were still laced and sealed. Who could have removed a page from a numbered and laced notebook? It was strictly forbidden here. God forbid.
        1. kalibr
          14 November 2020 10: 10
          +2
          Quote: sergo1914
          Who could have removed a page from a numbered and laced notebook?

          Checker, the one to whom you handed over the notebook for checking. It was indicated at the end: page 3 removed, F.I. O. print. In the Archive of the Ministry of Defense in 90 it was like this.
  • Lynx2000
    Lynx2000 14 November 2020 06: 38
    +4
    If the question of the difficulty of acquiring historical knowledge is attributed to schoolchildren, then a lot depends on the teacher of this subject and his ability to reveal the topic in such a way that the students sit with their mouths open for 45 minutes.
    I was lucky when a new history teacher appeared in our school in the 5th grade, and even served in the army as a "jacket".
    The first textbook "History of the Ancient World" interested me, and then the craving for reading appeared, although I grew up as a bully. Mother noticed the passion, in the late 80s it was not easy to get good literature. But, I have books about Napoleon (1957), Suvorov (1955 or 58), Julia Caesar and Hannibal Barca.

    In the w / n "Technology of Youth", if I am not mistaken, on the penultimate page were the so-called. comics in the images of "homemade". In the parental house, the files are kept in the attic, along with the journal "Za Rulem" from 72 to 92, as well as the novel-newspaper in which I first read Pikul's novels.
    In the Technology of Youth, excerpts of novels were published, I remember a novel, the plot of which was based on an alternative reality, supposedly Europeans discover America, and the local population has reached the technological development level of the 70s of the 20th century, and fall into a war between "Indians" who use flying apparatus, submarines, missiles and firearms ...
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 14 November 2020 06: 49
      +6
      I remember a novel, the plot of which was based on an alternative reality, supposedly Europeans discover America, and the local population has reached the level of technological development in the 70s of the 20th century, and fall into a war between "Indians" who use aircraft, submarines, missile and firearms...
      Not Indians, but Polynesians. S. Lukin "Missionaries".
      1. Van 16
        Van 16 14 November 2020 07: 33
        +6
        S. Lukin "Missionaries".
        If possible, I will correct - Evgeny Lukin. Apparently there is a misprint. There are a few more adjacent books.
        But I don’t remember that it was published in the Technology of Youth. Maybe he missed it.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 14 November 2020 07: 35
          +6
          Right! I screwed it up repeat
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 14 November 2020 07: 50
          +6
          so that he was published in the Technology of Youth.
          I am not saying this. It's just that the plot, "the populists," is very nontrivial for Soviet science fiction. I can recall only three works at a glance.
          1. Van 16
            Van 16 14 November 2020 09: 46
            +5
            Well, yes, this is now a sea of ​​"hitmen", but then ..
            What works? Apart from the Strugatskys, I can only remember Bushkova's "Anastasia" and "Odysseus ..." Zvyagintsev, they came out at about the same time as "Missionaries".
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 14 November 2020 10: 22
              +4
              "An unceremonious novel" and another dilogy, of the North of Gansovsky in my opinion (but this is not certain). Zvyagintsev and Bushkov belong to contemporary authors.
              1. Van 16
                Van 16 14 November 2020 12: 09
                +4
                Thank you! It was just that your opinion was interesting. I respect Gansovsky very much, it's a pity that I wrote quite a bit
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 14 November 2020 13: 27
                  +4
                  You are always welcome, Ivan! I enjoy talking about topics that I really understand.
    2. kalibr
      14 November 2020 07: 58
      +3
      Yes, Technique-Youth "gave me a lot personally ... Just like the Model-Constructor." It is bad that their editorial offices do not take into account the "wind of time" and both magazines are withering away. But "Popular Mechanics" takes into account even today "on a horse". However, it is 80% American, and these magazines are 100% ours.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 14 November 2020 08: 05
        +5
        "Vokrug Sveta" is perhaps the only magazine of my childhood that fit into the information age.
        Thank you for another material from the "Nostalgie" cycle, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
        1. kalibr
          14 November 2020 08: 12
          +4
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          "Vokrug Sveta" is perhaps the only magazine of my childhood that fit into the information age.

          Yes, and he too ...
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 14 November 2020 08: 22
            +5
            Why? As far as I understand, the publication has gone digital. Moreover, I found money to digitize the entire (!) Archive and posted it "public domain".
        2. tlauicol
          tlauicol 14 November 2020 08: 25
          +6
          Around the World, Pioneer, Modeler-Constructor, Young Naturalist, Boats and Yachts - magazines from childhood
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 14 November 2020 08: 28
            +8
            I have - Around the World, Youth Technique, Ural Pathfinder
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 14 November 2020 08: 51
              +5
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              I

              But what about * Finder *?!?! Great magazine! belay
              1. Van 16
                Van 16 14 November 2020 08: 58
                +5
                You can also add a Young Technician.
                The finder - the magazine is excellent, but how difficult it was to get it ..
                I remember that TM literally blew up the readers, when "Treasure of the Thunder Moon" was published, it was very unusual.
                1. Phil77
                  Phil77 14 November 2020 09: 05
                  +5
                  Quote: Van 16
                  it was difficult to get it ..

                  Good morning Ivan!
                  It's almost impossible! If * Around the World *, * TM *, * Young Technician * could still be seen in * Soyuzpechat *, then * Seeker * was simply impossible to find there! And it was unrealistic to subscribe to him, to our the office received only one application for it.
                  1. kalibr
                    14 November 2020 10: 19
                    -1
                    And why is it so? After all, EVERYTHING WAS FOR HUMAN GOOD?
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 14 November 2020 18: 00
                      +4
                      Vyacheslav Olegovich, don't pump!
                      1. Lexus
                        Lexus 15 November 2020 03: 33
                        +1
                        Anton hi,
                        my family had no problems for a long time subscribing "Modelist-Constructor", "Technology of Youth", Around the World "," Young Technician "and" Science and Life ". In addition to the fact that I was not very interested. And dad also brought from read the latest issues of the journal “Foreign Military Review.” The current “yellow press” of vomit quality was not even close.
                  2. Astra wild2
                    Astra wild2 14 November 2020 21: 45
                    +1
                    I didn't see him at all, but I heard from the elders
              2. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 14 November 2020 09: 02
                +4
                Sergei, in Moscow it was probably possible to get it, but in Polyarnye Zory it was not! Absolutely! Not even in the libraries.
                1. Phil77
                  Phil77 14 November 2020 09: 10
                  +5
                  And I first met him * on vacation at my aunt's, in the village / Muromtsevo, Vladimir region /! The early seventies. Where did he get it from? It's still a mystery to me, because in their family no one was particularly fond of reading.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 14 November 2020 09: 12
                    +4
                    / Muromtsevo, Vladimir region /
                    Which district?
                    1. Phil77
                      Phil77 14 November 2020 09: 14
                      +5
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      / Muromtsevo, Vladimir region /
                      Which district?

                      Sudogodsky. There is the estate of Khrapovitsky.
                      1. Phil77
                        Phil77 14 November 2020 09: 16
                        +5
                        Quote: Phil77
                        the estate of Khrapovitsky.

                      2. Phil77
                        Phil77 14 November 2020 09: 23
                        +5
                        Quote: Phil77
                        the estate of Khrapovitsky.

                        And this is how it looked in the past.
                      3. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 14 November 2020 09: 52
                        +5
                        And in due time the famous forester K.F.Turmer passed to Khrapovitsy when he did not find a common language with the younger Count Uvarov.
                    2. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 14 November 2020 09: 51
                      +5
                      There was a Muromtsev forestry technical school. And the arboretum is not bad.
                    3. Phil77
                      Phil77 14 November 2020 10: 01
                      +3
                      Quote: Korsar4
                      And the arboretum is not bad.

                      Yes! And during the war there was a hospital, and in the outbuildings there was the board of the state farm * Pioneer *. He specialized in poultry farming.
                2. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 14 November 2020 09: 23
                  +5
                  All my maternal relatives are from Kirzhach.
                3. Phil77
                  Phil77 14 November 2020 09: 30
                  +5
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  All my maternal relatives are from Kirzhach.

                  My father is from the Vladimir region.

                  Countrymen !!!! laughing
                4. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 14 November 2020 09: 40
                  +4
                  Mom still "okay" laughing
                5. Phil77
                  Phil77 14 November 2020 09: 46
                  +5
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  Mom still "okay"

                  Health to her! But ... as I was told, the Vladimirskys have the correct Russian speech. They * okay *, exactly where it is necessary. * Okat *. However, I will not undertake to state this categorically.
              3. Korsar4
                Korsar4 14 November 2020 09: 53
                +7
                The eldest daughter is now working in Kolchugino. The world is small.
            2. Catfish
              Catfish 14 November 2020 11: 21
              +5
              I was in Kirzhach in August 1969, right after the demobilization, I went to visit my friend in the pioneer camp from the Research Institute of AU, he was a physical teacher there. We had a good rest, we even went to dances in the city and there were no fights, but the town, in general, is so-so, dusty and empty. Although there was then a test range from the same research institute nearby, they tested parachute systems for space and the airborne forces, and Gagarin and Sergeev flew from this airfield on their last flight.
              The world is small, I am convinced again.
            3. Korsar4
              Korsar4 14 November 2020 12: 17
              +4
              A colleague from Kirzhach comes from. And we passed through Kirzhach to Kovrov how many times.
            4. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 14 November 2020 18: 06
              +2
              Yeah, if by car, then more or less. And on the trains, it's still "adventure". Change either in Aleksandrov, or in Orekhovo-Zuevo. And the Moscow electric trains docked disgustingly with the Vladimir region.
            5. Korsar4
              Korsar4 14 November 2020 18: 12
              +3
              If to Kolchugino - then through Alexandrov.
              And the Nizhny Novgorod Swallow goes to Kovrov from Moscow.
              Or just by train to Vladimir.

              In general, the main thing is to wait. Getting there is not a problem.
            6. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 14 November 2020 18: 46
              +3
              It's all bad now! Imagine how it was in the eighties?
            7. Korsar4
              Korsar4 14 November 2020 19: 06
              +4
              Imagine.

              Once there was a campaign slogan: "Stop living on electric trains."
              I tried it on myself.
            8. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 14 November 2020 19: 44
              +3
              I have nothing against electric trains. They think well and read well.
            9. Korsar4
              Korsar4 14 November 2020 19: 46
              +4
              I don't know if you believe it - 40% of my PhD is written in them.
            10. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 14 November 2020 20: 09
              +3
              Why not? I have read most of the books over the past 25 years in transport. But, alas, I cannot write in it ...
            11. Korsar4
              Korsar4 14 November 2020 20: 12
              +3
              Very well corrected. There was a period when the cartridge could not be saved.

              With books - the same situation: 1,5 - 2 hours in one direction required filling.
            12. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 14 November 2020 20: 29
              +2
              With the experience of traveling in electric trains, I have formed another method of knowing the world. Buried in a book, thereby moving away from annoying companions on the bench, listening to what the people in the carriage are talking about. The skill grew into a kind of hobby, a kind of hobby turned into a habit. I really like to sit in a street cafe and watch how people live.
            13. Korsar4
              Korsar4 14 November 2020 20: 45
              +3
              "Mockers are good prophets" (c).
            14. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 14 November 2020 20: 59
              +4
              Few of them died a natural death, like the prophets, or the scoffers.
            15. Korsar4
              Korsar4 14 November 2020 21: 06
              +2
              The ability to observe and notice is an interesting quality. And yet, it develops with exercise.

              One of the books over the past five years that has left a strong impression is "The House in Which ...".
            16. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 14 November 2020 21: 26
              +2
              For me, perhaps, "Essays on the history of the plague" by Supotnitsky.
            17. Korsar4
              Korsar4 14 November 2020 21: 28
              +2
              I managed to catch the title.
            18. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 14 November 2020 21: 40
              +2
              Read it. A very capable promoter. Even a biologist. laughing
            19. Korsar4
              Korsar4 14 November 2020 21: 50
              +2
              Sometimes I repeat someone else's joke that sciences are divided into natural, unnatural and unnatural.
            20. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 14 November 2020 21: 53
              +2
              So I am now arguing about the same with a mathematician and a physicist.
            21. Korsar4
              Korsar4 14 November 2020 21: 58
              +2
              Why argue? It's just that learning something is fun.
            22. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 14 November 2020 22: 09
              +2
              Why argue?
              Purely sports interest.
            23. Korsar4
              Korsar4 14 November 2020 22: 15
              +3
              In sports there is a criterion: either the score, or the stopwatch, or the opponent asks for mercy.

              Convincing someone to argue is difficult. Maybe listen to new arguments.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 14 November 2020 18: 11
    +4
    There was also a prison in which Powers was kept and a plant of automobile sidelights, which worked for the products of AZLK and GAZ.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 14 November 2020 15: 15
    +3
    Father subscribed to the Youth Technique, the Young Technician and the Foreign Military Review. This is in addition to major newspapers like Pravda, Izvestia, Argumenty i Fakty. ZVO in the list turned out to be by chance, my father wanted to subscribe to the Zvezda magazine, but it was not enough, but they also offered it in the mail. In fact, I made the right decision by getting a four-year subscription before the OBZH lessons began! And also, to the surprise of the teachers, the savvy knowledge of the military technology of the adversaries!
    The final essay on life safety is an overview of the combat capabilities of tanks from the first post-war generation to the T-90.
    The final essay on History - the Russo-Japanese War.
    All this was printed on a typewriter, through a carbon copy. Photos were cut from magazines and glued to PVA.
    For tanks, I looked at the following countries: USSR (Russia), USA, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, France, Italy, Japan, Brazil. Now, after a quarter of a century, I understand that there was no sea of ​​blunders there, I regret that Mom did not keep copies of the carbon copies.
    Okay, quiet down to brag.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 14 November 2020 21: 48
    +4
    I have: Pioneer, Around the World. Sometimes I bought them, sometimes I rubbed them to read
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 14 November 2020 10: 18
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    Yes, Technique-Youth "gave me a lot personally ... Just like the Model-Constructor." It is bad that their editorial offices do not take into account the "wind of time" and both magazines are withering away. But "Popular Mechanics" takes into account even today "on a horse". However, it is 80% American, and these magazines are 100% ours.

    The problem is rather not who owns this or that publishing house. The problem is the price of the printed matter. For example, the price for the book "PHP. Objects, Templates and Programming Techniques" on ozon is 2 rubles, in the city, the price is about the same. For me, offhand, it is 183-8 times cheaper to download it on a root tracker, for example, and print it on my printer. Where do publishers get these prices from?
  • Boris55
    Boris55 14 November 2020 08: 23
    +3
    Somehow it turns out that the story that we are presented with is a story of continuous wars. From an early age, all over the world, everyone is thinking that war is the natural state of mankind.

    So in the pictures in the article - a continuous war, as if there was no peacetime, the countries did not develop, did not trade, did not exchange experience, did not help each other, and then we wonder why the neighbor goes to war against the neighbor ... to the fact that historians around the world mentally prepared us for wars, for the murder of their own kind?
    1. kalibr
      14 November 2020 08: 28
      +1
      Quote: Boris55
      Maybe because historians around the world mentally prepared us for wars, for killing their own kind?

      Interestingly, Boris, but not only you noticed it. Me too, and also, for example, the French. It was the thief of France that published two very interesting history textbooks Cf. centuries. One "gender" 6 men and women in history 50 to 50%, not 80 and 20, as we have now. And a tutorial based on LIFE. I don't know French, so only a few of them could learn, but ... this is a WONDERFUL WORK. Thought a lot on his own history textbooks dr. Peace and Wed. centuries corresponding to modern children and time. There is a concept, a general plan. But "Enlightenment" has not yet answered my proposals ...
    2. kalibr
      14 November 2020 08: 29
      +1
      Quote: Boris55
      So in the pictures in the article - a continuous war, as if there was no peacetime, the countries did not develop, did not trade, did not exchange experience, did not help each other, and then we wonder why the neighbor goes to war against the neighbor ..

      There were others ...
    3. kalibr
      14 November 2020 08: 31
      +3
      Quote: Boris55
      Somehow it turns out that the story that we are presented with is a story of continuous wars. From an early age, all over the world, everyone is thinking that war is the natural state of mankind.

      Boris! I can use this phrase of yours in the next article with a link to you, of course?
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 14 November 2020 08: 57
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        There is a concept, a general plan. But "Enlightenment" has not yet answered my proposals ...

        While the whole World is a pack of wolves fighting for the place of the leader. And under such conditions, the adoption of a "humane" history textbook by one country will turn this country into a sheep, which will undoubtedly be torn apart by predators. This issue should be resolved at the global level, but then there will be other questions for the elites of the countries: how to manage the crowd that has lost its fear, how to dispose of the "extra" population, what to do with the violent ones, when their own forces to pacify are no longer enough, etc. d ..

        In the meantime, it is easier for us to fill the neighbor's face with a 20 cm fence at a summer cottage than to agree (on both sides). The same applies to Karabakh.

        Quote: kalibr
        Boris! I can use this phrase of yours in the next article with a link to you, of course?

        Yes. You can do the same without referring to me.
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 14 November 2020 11: 37
          +3
          And what to do with people like me? All pride is in the ability to fight. There are many military
        2. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 14 November 2020 21: 37
          +3
          Good evening Boris. I put you + "you can and without links to me." You and Vyacheslav Olegovich have ideological differences, I also have, but you are above small ambitions
    4. Bar1
      Bar1 14 November 2020 08: 42
      +2
      Quote: Boris55
      Somehow it turns out that the story that we are presented with is a story of continuous wars.

      here, here, as soon as the doctor of historical sciences. Pyzhikov spat on the history of the rulers (he said that he regretted that he had spent so much time studying Khrushchev) and took up the history of the people, as a completely different story opened to him than what is written in the textbooks.
    5. sergo1914
      sergo1914 14 November 2020 08: 50
      +1
      Quote: Boris55
      Maybe because historians around the world mentally prepared us for wars, for killing their own kind?


      Maybe not to "killing your own kind" but to "protection from the aggressor"? Do not chew snot tolerantly, in which case, but take the trunk and go chase the intruders?
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 14 November 2020 09: 03
        +2
        Quote: sergo1914
        Maybe not to "killing your own kind" but to "protection from the aggressor"? Do not chew snot tolerantly, in which case, but take the trunk and go chase the intruders?

        "To live with wolves, howl like a wolf"No one has canceled this popular wisdom.
        See my post above.
    6. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 14 November 2020 08: 59
      +7
      Somehow it turns out that the story that we are presented with is a story of continuous wars. From an early age, all over the world, everyone is thinking that war is the natural state of mankind.
      Someone has cruelly deceived you!
      Historical science includes many disciplines that do not overlap with militarism. However, you have been a reader of a resource dedicated specifically to military topics for many years. Cognitive dissonance arises ...
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 14 November 2020 09: 12
        +1
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        For many years you have been a reader of a resource devoted specifically to military topics. Cognitive dissonance arises ...

        No dissonance. The military are the most peaceful people on Earth.
        Wars unleash politicians. The military is finishing them.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 14 November 2020 09: 26
          +4
          I will not argue, I will only focus on what I said above about history.
    7. Hantengri
      Hantengri 14 November 2020 12: 10
      +6
      Quote: Boris55
      Somehow it turns out that the story that we are presented with is a story of continuous wars. From an early age, all over the world, everyone is thinking that war is the natural state of mankind.

      Boris, the history of life on Earth is, in general, an absolute hell. Everyone is constantly eating each other, "squeezing", squeezing out of the ecological niche, chopping off habitats ... The goal is one - to survive, destroying competitors. And this is a natural state for all earthly inhabitants.
      Just. after the genus Homo grew its brains and became sapiens, there were no competitors left on Earth, and the bad habits laid down by millions of years of evolution have not disappeared. So we now have to fight for resources within our own species, destroying our own kind, with the help of the latest achievements of our own mind.
      1. Kwas
        Kwas 15 November 2020 21: 45
        +1
        "Until philosophy learns to rule the world, hunger and love will rule it" - I just don't remember where.
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 15 November 2020 21: 54
          +1
          Quote: Kwas

          Until philosophy learns to rule the world ...

          "Space is homogeneous, space is isotropic, time is homogeneous. There is NO God !!!" (c) Therefore, this will never happen, because it can never happen. laughing
          1. Kwas
            Kwas 15 November 2020 22: 13
            +1
            As you yourself remember, this phrase was shouted by a theoretical physicist. And everything is possible in life!
            1. Hantengri
              Hantengri 15 November 2020 23: 06
              +2
              Okay. Persuaded. I agree, but "with one additional condition" (c): The probability is non-zero, but oh-oh-very small.
              1. Kwas
                Kwas 16 November 2020 22: 30
                +1
                "One additional condition" is, of course, strength! But I think the probability is pretty high, because it is ultimately rational. "It's a pity that neither me nor you will have to live in this wonderful time."
                1. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 16 November 2020 23: 10
                  0
                  Quote: Kwas
                  "One additional condition" is, of course, strength!

                  You won’t praise yourself ... lol
                  Quote: Kwas
                  But I think the probability is pretty high, because it is ultimately rational.

                  What rationality! What are you talking about? 90% of the planet's population is pathological de`Bills, and, moreover, continuously producing their own kind! You, with your blessings of noocracy, to the average de`Bill (y) have not gotten anywhere at all. You are incomprehensible to him. and therefore dangerous. Therefore, it is better to kill you so that you do not interfere with normal people eating a gaburger and, buried in a zombie box, reflect on sex and patriotism ...
                  Although, I may be wrong. Perhaps now I just have a too misotropic mood ...
                  1. Kwas
                    Kwas 17 November 2020 20: 34
                    +1
                    I think about 90% of de'Bills you got a little excited. IMHO there are so many of them in societies where goods are offered on a silver platter. But where you have to work and think, there should be much less of them. And besides, we live just on the eve of the times when, like it or not, the aforementioned de'Bills will have to tear their base off the sofa so as not to die of hunger. Well, you know the Eagle's method for raising awareness! am
                    And it is in his own interest to maximize it.
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 14 November 2020 10: 09
    +5
    As always, it is read in one breath))
  • Esoteric
    Esoteric 14 November 2020 10: 51
    +1
    And again I will give copy-paste. Collingwood's brilliant thought about historians and their testimonies: “We already know what evidence is not. It is not ready-made historical knowledge that should consume and throw back the mind of the historian. Evidence is everything that the historian can use as such ... Enrichment of historical knowledge is carried out mainly by finding ways to use as evidence for historical evidence this or that perceived fact, which historians have until now HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED USELESS ... In history, as in all serious subjects, no result is final. at our disposal in solving any specific problem, they change with a change in the historical method and with a change in the competence of historians ... Every new historian is not satisfied with the fact that he gives new answers to old questions: he must revise the questions themselves "
    Exactly. While studying at school, it was not even mentioned that a certain Trotsky ended his life with an ice ax.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 14 November 2020 18: 47
      +3
      "it was not even mentioned that a certain Troitsky ended his life with an ice ax" at school they did not tell us a lot of things in order to preserve the child's psyche. I read that Trotsky was killed in grade 9, but apart from being killed on such and such a date, nothing else
  • Esoteric
    Esoteric 14 November 2020 11: 05
    0
    I sometimes like historians to isolate logical absurdities by reading their creations. For example, V. Yanin.
    “If in the layer discovered during the excavations there are glass and slate products, carnelian beads, jewelry decorated with enamel, filigree and granulation, it means that archaeologists have the remains of the pre-Mongol period. If all this is not there, we have entered the next historical period. "
    Let's speak in normal language. It means that? The historian and others like him once agreed to believe that the Mongol-Tatar invasion led to the complete extermination of all ancient Russian jewelers and the disappearance of fine crafts.
    How wonderful.
  • Esoteric
    Esoteric 14 November 2020 11: 11
    +1
    Or here's another, again copy-paste, document, whole document, this is important!

    “Oh, the bright and beautifully decorated Russian land! You are glorified by many beauties: you are famous for many lakes, locally revered rivers and springs, mountains, steep hills, high oak forests, clean fields, wonderful animals, various birds, countless great cities, glorious villages, monastery gardens, temples of God and formidable princes, honest boyars and by many nobles. You are filled with everything, Russian land, about the Christian Orthodox faith!

    From here to the Ugrians and to the Poles, to the Czechs, from the Czechs to the Yatvingians, from the Yatvingians to the Lithuanians, to the Germans, from the Germans to the Karelians, from the Karelians to Ustyug, where the filthy Toymichi live, and beyond the Breathing Sea; from the sea to the Bulgarians, from the Bulgarians to the Burtases, from the Burtases to the Cheremis, from the Cheremis to the Mordtsy - everything with God's help was subdued by the Christian people, these filthy countries obeyed the Grand Duke Vsevolod, his father Yuri, Prince of Kiev, his grandfather Vladimir Monomakh, who The Polovtsians scared their little children. And the Lithuanians did not appear from their swamps, and the Hungarians strengthened the stone walls of their cities with iron gates so that the great Vladimir would not conquer them, and the Germans were glad that they were far away - across the blue sea. Burtases, Cheremis, Vyada and Mordovians fought for the Grand Duke Vladimir. And the emperor of Constantinople, Manuel, out of fear, sent great gifts to him so that the Grand Duke Vladimir would not take Constantinople from him.

    And in those days - from the great Yaroslav, and to Vladimir, and to the current Yaroslav, and to his brother Yuri, Prince of Vladimir, trouble fell on Christians ... "
    Document Entire, entirely. There is no other in it. And it is called by historians - "The Word about the death of the Russian land", and narrates according to their assurances about the Tatar-Mongol invasion. Where are the Tatars, where are the Mongols, is there even a word about them? Well, just miracles.
    1. Icelord
      Icelord 14 November 2020 11: 29
      +3
      And which document? I do not know the Slavic documents of that time, moreover, even a mystery with writing. Please clarify
    2. Icelord
      Icelord 14 November 2020 11: 30
      +3
      Although I do not need to read, the document is late
    3. Icelord
      Icelord 14 November 2020 11: 32
      +3
      Oh, these Russoaries, amuse smile
      1. Esoteric
        Esoteric 14 November 2020 12: 12
        0
        And where does the Russoarii? I look at history, and historians through a kind of desk guide, for me, the books of the English historian and philosopher R. J. Collingwood. The smartest man was.
      2. Esoteric
        Esoteric 14 November 2020 12: 17
        +1
        I don't remember where, and in which magazine, I remember that he was thoroughly academic, read an article about how the Mongolian fleet fired at the Japanese fleet with military missiles. Yeah. The Japanese probably responded with laser-guided torpedoes. Such pearls are given out that at least stand, at least fall, and in all seriousness.
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 14 November 2020 12: 20
          +3
          Collingwood, philosopher. He is not considered a historian. Does not recognize the canons of science
          1. Esoteric
            Esoteric 14 November 2020 12: 32
            0
            Well, here's a historian. James Groth. An authoritative scientist, honorary doctor of Oxford and Cambridge, the author of the classic ten-volume "History of Ancient Greece". But now he was engaged in the fact that in every possible way he shortened and squeezed the classic version of ancient Greek history, which the orthodox met with gnashing of teeth. But there was nothing they could do.
            While this Englishman was alive, it was absolutely impossible to argue with him, because he is a very large figure, with brilliant knowledge, you cannot stick the label of "violently inhibited" to him.
            But after his death, Grot was pushed into the dusty bowels of libraries, and his students were quietly "muffled" and who knows about him now?
          2. Esoteric
            Esoteric 14 November 2020 12: 38
            0
            Barthold Niebuhr. Already German. Studied in Keele, London, Edinburgh. He spoke 12 languages. Niebuhr considered the entire ancient Roman history to be a legend. Does anyone remember him now? A rhetorical question.
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 14 November 2020 12: 41
              +2
              Well, they don’t remember. And why? 19th century nonsense inspired by romanticism and cocaine
              1. Esoteric
                Esoteric 14 November 2020 12: 47
                0
                Well, if George Groth is not a scientist, then I'm sorry. From Wikipedia even - "The main work of the 12-volume" History of Greece "(" History of Greece ", 1846-1856). As noted, the study of various aspects of Greek history, interest in democratic institutions, a critical method of using sources, figurative and lively language provided this work with an honorable place in European historiography. "
                Above I was a little mistaken, and I am correcting myself with the name and title of his work. He was engaged in what now can be called "New chronology". So this process has always been, and they were by no means ignorant.
                And there was nothing to present to him, except for malicious whispering from his back, his opponents lacked intelligence and arguments in a dispute with him.
                1. Icelord
                  Icelord 14 November 2020 12: 51
                  +2
                  Well, grotto et kanesh !!! I have no more questions
                  1. Esoteric
                    Esoteric 14 November 2020 12: 55
                    0
                    And what about Newton's research in history? Who squeezed her too? Of course they will say that my grandfather fell into insanity. Well, yes, those who say this can be seen by themselves discovering the fundamental laws of the universe almost every day.
                    Newton and insanity is of course cool.
                    1. Icelord
                      Icelord 14 November 2020 12: 57
                      +2
                      Newton is just a child of the 18th century. And that's it
          3. Esoteric
            Esoteric 14 November 2020 12: 57
            0
            And Collingwood is right. "A historian can only study the past that is not dead, but lives in the present (for example, a modern historian has the opportunity to study the Middle Ages only as much as the ways of thinking of the people of the Middle Ages still live in the present)." The only way.
    4. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 14 November 2020 13: 58
      +6
      Quote: Ezoterik
      And it is called by historians - "The Word about the death of the Russian land"

      Not from historians, but from the author. And it is fully called "THE WORD ABOUT THE DEATH OF THE RUSSIAN EARTH AND THE DEATH OF THE GREAT PRINCE YAROSLAV"
      Teach materiel. smile
  • Icelord
    Icelord 14 November 2020 11: 24
    +2
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich. And in the illustration of the franc, the current braids may be historical ... and who knows. But not francisca is it ever)
  • Icelord
    Icelord 14 November 2020 12: 32
    +3
    Here is Francis.

    1. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 14 November 2020 21: 24
      +2
      And what is it wound on the handle of the ax: colored electrical tape or copper wire?
      1. BAI
        BAI 16 November 2020 15: 09
        0
        This is a leather cord with your permission.
  • iouris
    iouris 14 November 2020 12: 38
    0
    "Historical knowledge" is vague. The school needs a textbook that forms a conceptual view of the history and future of the people and the state, as well as their achievements and failures, strengths and weaknesses, the pursued development goals and resource endowments, a place in the world, an analysis of opponents and eventual allies, the main contradictions and possible ways their permission in the face of tough competition for a place in the sun and natural resources.
    1. kalibr
      14 November 2020 16: 28
      +2
      Quote: iouris
      The school needs a textbook that forms a conceptual view of the history and future of the people and the state, as well as their achievements and failures, strengths and weaknesses, the pursued development goals and resource endowments, a place in the world, an analysis of opponents and eventual allies, the main contradictions and possible ways their permission in the face of tough competition for a place in the sun and natural resources.

      I am ready to subscribe to your every word. But ... you need a textbook CORRESPONDING TO THE MENTALITY OF TODAY'S CHILDREN. With mobile phones in hand, having the ability to instantly receive ANY INFORMATION. Focused not on memorization, but on interest in acquiring new knowledge ... Right?
      1. iouris
        iouris 14 November 2020 19: 32
        +2
        In such a society, not a textbook, the Internet is the most important of the communication channels and a means of forming a "new man". The smartphone "gives out" "any information". Everything is so organized that a child with any mentality will "consume content" for his (parents) money, but will never receive knowledge.
        Trump knows that he won the election, and the Internet says that Biden defeated him. Dot.
        1. kalibr
          14 November 2020 19: 40
          +2
          Everything is true, but you cannot study using a smartphone. A smart compromise is needed between a smartphone and a textbook.
          1. iouris
            iouris 16 November 2020 16: 08
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            but you cannot study using a smartphone.

            Correctly. But you can successfully simulate the process!
            1. kalibr
              16 November 2020 16: 09
              +1
              Quote: iouris
              you can successfully simulate the process!

              Anything can be successfully imitated!
              1. Fat
                Fat 18 November 2020 05: 54
                +1
                Quote: kalibr
                Quote: iouris
                you can successfully simulate the process!

                Anything can be successfully imitated!

                An excellent slogan)))))) is also suitable for advertising, well, let's say, Internet lupanaria too ...
                1. kalibr
                  18 November 2020 08: 23
                  +2
                  Quote: Thick
                  well, let's say, internet lupanaria too ...

                  And the easiest way to imitate an orgasm is ...
                  1. Fat
                    Fat 18 November 2020 19: 17
                    +1
                    easiest to imitate ...
                    No experience (Is the main thing to start?))))))
        2. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 14 November 2020 21: 21
          +3
          "the internet says Biden defeated him" not just the internet. Many world leaders congratulated him on his victory, and Vladimir Vladimirovich probably does not use the Internet and is silent.
          In fact, they have such a porridge that their heads are spinning
          1. iouris
            iouris 16 November 2020 16: 09
            0
            Quote: Astra wild2
            Vladimir Vladimirovich probably does not use the Internet and is silent.

            And Dmitry Anatolyevich uses a smartphone everywhere!
            1. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 19 November 2020 14: 06
              +1
              His status is not supposed to congratulate. We laugh at work: Vladimir Vladimirovich confirmed that Trump is his agent
          2. Fat
            Fat 18 November 2020 20: 09
            0
            Quote: Astra wild2
            "the internet says Biden defeated him" not just the internet. Many world leaders congratulated him on his victory, and Vladimir Vladimirovich probably does not use the Internet and is silent.
            In fact, they have such a porridge that their heads are spinning

            "No need to use .... We must treat" ...
            In general, according to tradition, some kind of out ... Not a brown-out, not a black-out ... The obscurity of taxiing by a society in which both parties ate either an elephant or a donkey ... And everyone knows that the real difference is , only in the internal political line of the US leadership.
            "Hello kids, now, now, we'll find out ..."
            Yeah, wait ... How territories and money are distributed at the end of the 19th century, it was clear.,. Well approximately....
            Little has changed for "rule Britain over the seas". Union Jack is in their hands ... Another thing is that Nobody will now be a slave. ..
            As if the Anglo-Saxons and their black ex-slaves did not position themselves.
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 14 November 2020 19: 43
        +5
        I catch myself thinking that interest is instilled by a teacher or lecturer to a greater extent. Here the task is to ignite.

        The knowledge system is important in textbooks. And, alas, there are already too many pictures.

        However, I admit that being on our site pushed me to more use of pictures. Let this process go on with a creak.
        1. Fat
          Fat 18 November 2020 20: 12
          +1
          interest is instilled by the teacher

          ... And parents, if you're lucky with the teacher ...)))
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 18 November 2020 20: 36
            +1
            I agree. Although, of course, each case is individual.
            1. Fat
              Fat 18 November 2020 21: 20
              +1
              And laugh
              Although, of course, each case is individual.
              ....
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 18 November 2020 21: 22
                +1
                In general, I approve of laughter. And I am glad that Umberto ECO in "The Name of the Rose" reasoned well about this.
                1. Fat
                  Fat 18 November 2020 22: 08
                  +1
                  Your Eco Umberto, probably. good. I was not lucky. I have not read it. Sincerely! I will correct myself if I find an adequate translation. I'm weak with Spanish ... This ... Like ... "I read with a dictionary" ...))))
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 18 November 2020 22: 15
                    0
                    Do you think the translation is inadequate? I didn't even think about it. Foucault's Pendulum and How to write a thesis were also interesting.

                    I periodically read something in English, but I catch myself thinking that this is a process, not a result. Compared to those who have a fluent language, of course, a limitation.

                    The domestic school of translation is a phenomenon.
                    1. Fat
                      Fat 18 November 2020 22: 52
                      +1
                      Oh, leave it, don't worry! For example, I read any text in any semblance of British English. Sometimes I translate successfully. But with great effort I can communicate with Americans and Canadians verbally, either I am too Russian, or they can’t enter ... As well as I, however ... Anyone, not the London dialect, is a question of Eliza Doolittle's competence. Not?
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 18 November 2020 23: 03
                        +1
                        Today I told my daughter about Pygmalion on the way. For example, it is easier for the Germans to communicate with the Scandinavians.

                        Then why is the “Name of the Rose” wish in the original?

                        Out of stubbornness, I once translated from German in graduate school, knowing nothing. For myself, of course.

                        Now I thought - was the film "Faust" bait in the original to read?
                      2. Fat
                        Fat 18 November 2020 23: 10
                        0
                        [quote] [/ Today I retold "Pygmalion" on the way to my daughter. With the Scandinavians, for example, and the Germans from communicating simply]
                      3. Fat
                        Fat 18 November 2020 23: 24
                        +1
                        Eliza Doolittle and My Fire Lady and Pygmalion B. Show are almost one. But this is one play separated by decades of prom. Progress.
                        It means once that there is no difference between the strata of society in intelligence, there is only a difference in the dialect ...
                    2. Fat
                      Fat 18 November 2020 23: 42
                      0
                      Quote: Korsar4
                      Today I told my daughter about Pygmalion on the way. For example, it is easier for the Germans to communicate with the Scandinavians.

                      Then why is the “Name of the Rose” wish in the original?

                      Out of stubbornness, I once translated from German in graduate school, knowing nothing. For myself, of course.

                      Now I thought - was the film "Faust" bait in the original to read?

                      Dv. Correctly. It was bait. Corsair4 knocked off the inscrutable ways? Not?
                    3. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 18 November 2020 23: 47
                      +2
                      "The ways are inscrutable."
                      And "they go astray from the true path."

                      Let's ask Chuang Tzu.
                    4. Fat
                      Fat 19 November 2020 00: 05
                      +1
                      Let's ask Chuang Tzu

                      Well!!?
                      "The conclusions might seem erroneous if we had different past experiences. Chuang Tzu believed that our natural inclinations were mixed with the acquired ones. The conclusions and the choice of the next step are due to this unique set of natural and acquired properties."
                    5. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 19 November 2020 00: 33
                      +2
                      I don't know where the quote comes from, but it sounds convincing.
                    6. Fat
                      Fat 19 November 2020 00: 51
                      0
                      This, God forgive me, from Vicki, she is changing, like We are all. Extellopedia of Vestrand from the diaries of Jonas the Pacific. Kapets, separation of sepulcaria ... See Sepulka. See Sepulation, See Sepulcaria.
                      Sepulcaria - see sepulka .....
                    7. Fat
                      Fat 19 November 2020 00: 55
                      +1
                      The Chuang Tzu quote is true from the Wiki, honestly!
                    8. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 19 November 2020 01: 06
                      +1
                      I don't mind at all. Any knowledge brought into the system is interesting.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 14 November 2020 17: 25
    +4
    V.O., glad to see you on the site. Although not always liked, but you are interesting to read
  • vladcub
    vladcub 14 November 2020 17: 36
    +4
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Mom still "okay" laughing

    As a child, I spoke only surzhik, and now half a century later, I am happy if there is an opportunity to "balakat", but alas, there are practically no such people among my circle.
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 14 November 2020 18: 17
    +4
    Rђ RІRѕS, two exams on the history of the CPSUincluded in the candidate minimum

    Why two? When entering graduate school there was only one in the history of the CPSU, and the candidate minimum included philosophy, also one. I entered this charitable institution (graduate school) in 1981, graduated in 1985, defended myself in 1990 (Ph.D.)
    1. kalibr
      14 November 2020 19: 39
      +2
      Because the history of the CPSU for me was a SPECIALTY, and gave up first until the age of 17, and then after the 17th. The volume was very large. Included not only Lenin, but also Marx and Engels and much more ... You had a technical specialty ...
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 14 November 2020 20: 19
        +4
        Clear. Features of specialization. I had 01.02.05/18/1982 - Mechanics of liquid, gas and plasma. By the way, it was the study of Lenin's work "Materialism and Empirio-Criticism" (vol. XNUMX of the Collected Works) in preparation for the exam in philosophy that showed me the depth of Lenin's thought. So to understand the most serious philosophical issue, having only a legal education, only a genius person could. "It was not matter that disappeared, only our previous idea of ​​it disappeared." Nevertheless, knowledge of primary sources did not save me from a couple that I got on the first test of my PhD in philosophy. A commission of professional Marxist-Leninists assessed my knowledge in this way in XNUMX. Later, the same commission gave me a threefold.
        1. kalibr
          14 November 2020 21: 02
          +3
          Some of Lenin's works are indeed very interesting, and in some ways brilliant, but there is a lot of controversy with people who have not meant anything for a long time and we do not need, a lot of things that are not needed today, but some wonderful ones. . raised issues, no completion. That is, it is clear that he was solving topical affairs, arguing with living people, but this makes it very difficult for us to study his work. It is not without reason that such digests were published in the USSR: "Lenin on Science and Technology", "Lenin on War and Peace", "Lenin on the Labor Movement". I passed philosophy with the second exam and got 4, but I only remember that I got the pre-Socratics and I confused who said that everything came from water, and who from fire ... But in our country it was believed that 4 is the norm, but for technicians 3 is just right.
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 14 November 2020 21: 21
            +5
            but there is a lot of controversy with people who have long meant nothing and we do not need,

            Quite right. But it was precisely the stupid admiration for each phrase that the professional Marxist-Leninists demanded from us in the 70s, when I was a student. It is worth noting that some of them sometimes came across thinking people who approached their work dialectically. In particular, our teacher of the history of the CPSU Lukashov, who was already very old in the 1972-73 academic year (he was then strongly over 70), pointed out the inconsistency of the works "State and Revolution" and "The Next Tasks of Soviet Power" and explained what was the matter ... He himself was a professional party worker and spoke very interestingly about the 20s and the discussions in the party at that time. Lenin became a leader because he declared: "Marxism is not a dogma, but a guide to action." The very same Plekhanov considered Marxism a dogma. And professional Marxist-Leninists from the mid-50s threw out the works of Stalin, and from the works of Marx-Engels-Lenin they quickly built a dogma. And Lenin in his work "Materialism and Empirio-criticism" polemicized with the greatest physicists of that time - Ernst Mach, Avenarius, and others. In no way did he question the results of their research, it was about philosophical problems.
            1. kalibr
              15 November 2020 07: 45
              +1
              Totally agree with you. And this is very sad. And, by the way, I just tried to tell the students this subject very interestingly. I'm not afraid to say that, in the hope that at least someone will remember and ... confirm. I didn’t have any pedagogy or Talmudism. But only this did not save the situation!
  • Grif
    Grif 14 November 2020 19: 48
    +3
    It is always interesting to read Shpakovsky. He writes very touchingly.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 14 November 2020 21: 09
    +4
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, dear. I am happy that you are with us.
    I said that sometimes I was ready to bite you, but in any case, your works are many times higher than Samsonov and Kharluzhny.
    You have recovered and now there will be more interesting materials.
    1. kalibr
      15 November 2020 07: 48
      +2
      It's nice to read this ... And to bite ... You know, I myself sometimes want to bite myself because I was STUPID in Soviet times, how I believed everything, did not understand anything and how I suffered because of this ... Well, but I got better ... yes, it seems, but not completely, so there is still no previous performance. Brains ... here the brains seem to remain with me.
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 15 November 2020 20: 23
        +3
        The main thing is that the brains are with you, and you will get back in shape. I believe
  • Lexus
    Lexus 15 November 2020 01: 26
    0
    "Since they sowed the wind, they will reap the storm." (FROM)
    "Everything secret, sooner or later, becomes apparent." (FROM)
    "No snot and pity - just hardcore!" (FROM)
    Our Vyacheslav, you know, Olegych heard the readers' aspirations. hi
    I expect good work, without bias and with conclusions.
    As well as forecasts based on today's realities. smile
    1. kalibr
      15 November 2020 07: 50
      +2
      Quote: lexus
      I expect good work, without bias and with conclusions.
      As well as forecasts based on today's realities.

      I already wrote to you why complete objectivity, so dear to you, is impossible. And now I still cannot get into either the State Archives, or the Party Archives, or the current archive under the governor, and it is generally unknown when I will get there. Just for health reasons. I can’t risk it! Therefore, the article about which we are talking about will be written A - exclusively on generally known data, B - on Lenin's works (also well-known), Soviet archival data and ... my conclusions, which will unite all this. The only way!
      1. Lexus
        Lexus 15 November 2020 14: 43
        0
        Of course, only after recovery, which is what I wish you. hi
        1. kalibr
          15 November 2020 15: 48
          +3
          Thanks! But I'll try early. "The ashes of Claes are knocking on my heart." Actually, Alexey, you should read all three of my novels "Three from Ensk". This is the biography of my family and ... mine. And tons of adventure and information. You would understand a lot!
  • Undecim
    Undecim 15 November 2020 18: 12
    +2
    At that time, a high school teacher did not need scientific communism, diamat and history mathematics at all, but they all hammered our heads very hard.
    And how the mechanical engineer needed them !!! Agree. that it is impossible to master the course of mechanical equipment of metallurgical plants without scientific communism!
    1. kalibr
      15 November 2020 18: 52
      +2
      Quote: Undecim
      Agree. that it is impossible to master the course of mechanical equipment of metallurgical plants without scientific communism!

      I personally am amused and very much. But it is clear that I was laughing only to myself!
    2. Kwas
      Kwas 15 November 2020 22: 06
      +1
      Once, in the days of my studies, all of us, future physicists, thought the same way. Although it was interesting on diamat and history. But now I think that if these subjects were better and read to everyone, there would be no disaster in 1991. But of course, there was nowhere to take even just so many teachers. And the top has already rotted for a long time ...
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 15 November 2020 22: 31
        +3
        But now I think that if these subjects were better and read to everyone
        And they read them all. Both physicists and lyricists passed the state exam on scientific communism. The reason for 1991 is definitely not in the history of history.
      2. kalibr
        16 November 2020 08: 08
        0
        Quote: Kwas
        Although it was interesting on diamat and history. But now I think that if these subjects were better and read to everyone, there would be no catastrophe of 1991.

        Konstantin! You may not believe me, but at our Polytechnic in Penza we GIVED it well! Are you reading my articles? Is it badly written? And I speak even better, more figuratively. And I know those who have read philosophy - masters of their craft. AND ... ALL OUR STEPS DIDN'T HELP!
        1. Kwas
          Kwas 16 November 2020 22: 24
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          Konstantin! You may not believe me, but at our Polytechnic in Penza we GIVED it well!

          Reading your articles, I believe. But were there many such teachers? So, in general, I continue to believe that the cause of the 1991 crash was primarily ideological omissions imposed on treason.
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 16 November 2020 08: 29
    -2
    There could be no money for the church, because in the USSR the church was a public organization and was sponsored by believers, and if they donate money, then this is their money, and not the church, which can only be an organizer.
  • deddem
    deddem 16 November 2020 10: 28
    +1
    From the picture of the franc, I can say that this is the pure style of the Encyclopedic Dictionary Larousse of the beginning of the XIX century, and their illustrations were used by everyone who was not lazy, both before the revolution and after.
  • BAI
    BAI 16 November 2020 14: 23
    +1
    And in the era of the USSR, for some reason, it was considered terribly secret ...

    It is obvious.
    On March 7, 1944, 19 T-34-85 tanks and 21 OT-34 flamethrower tanks were handed over to the Red Army near the Tula village of Gorelki. And by December 1944, all these tanks had been destroyed. Nothing left. And in 1944, they seemed to be winning all over. And here such losses.