Military Review

"Game of Thrones" in the Ottoman Empire. Fatih law

282

Shot from the series "Mehmed: The Conqueror of the World"


The seventh Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II, as you know, entered history under the nickname Fatih - Conqueror.

"Game of Thrones" in the Ottoman Empire. Fatih law
Paolo Veronese. Portrait of Sultan Mehmed II

It was during his reign in 1453 that Constantinople fell, and the territory of the Ottoman state for 30 years (from 1451 to 1481) increased almost 2,5 times - from 900 thousand to 2 million 214 thousand square kilometers. Desperate to organize a new Crusade against Mehmed II, Pope Pius II organized several assassination attempts against this sultan (some researchers count up to 15 attempts). Since Mehmed II died quite early - at the age of 49, there are sometimes suggestions about his poisoning, but no confirmation of this version has yet been found.

But, in addition to military successes, Mehmed also became famous for the publication of the Kanun-name code of secular laws.


In the second section of Kanun-name, among others, there is the famous "Law of Fatih", which had a tremendous impact on the course of the history of the Ottoman Empire and the fate of many sons of the Turkish sultans. Its later unofficial name was “the law of fratricide”.

Fatih law


From the article Timur and Bayazid I. Great generals who did not divide the world You must remember that the first shahzadeh who ordered to kill his brother after the death of his father was Bayazid I. Then, in the internecine war, Bayazid's three sons - Isa, Suleiman and Musa, perished. Murad II, the grandson of Bayezid, having come to power, ordered to blind two of his brothers, one of whom was 7 years old, the other - 8. His son, Sultan Mehmed II (who had not yet become the Conqueror), outlived his older brothers, and the only remaining younger one was born three months before his father's death, ordered to kill immediately after accession to the throne in 1451. He himself was 17 at the time. And it was Mehmed II who issued the law officially allowing the sons of the deceased sultan to kill each other "for the public good" (Nizam-I Alem) - to avoid confusion and internecine wars:

And which of my sons will get the sultanate, in the name of the common good, the killing of brothers is permissible. This is supported by most of the ulama. Let them act accordingly.

"Extra" princes, of course, were killed "without shedding blood" - strangled with a silk cord.
This rule was so shocking that a number of historians considered it a slander invented by Europeans. The very fact of the murders of brothers by the Ottoman sultans during their accession to the throne was not denied: they doubted that such fratricides were enshrined at the legislative level. Since for a long time the only complete copy of Kanun-name available to researchers was kept in Vienna, assumptions were made about its falsification for propaganda purposes. However, it was Turkish historians Khalil Inaljik and Abdulkadir Ozcan who found and published new lists of Kanun-name with the “Fatih law” included in the second section, and came to an unequivocal conclusion about its reliability.

You will probably be surprised that the seniority of the applicant and his origin from one or another wife or even a concubine in the Ottoman state did not matter: the power should have passed to that of the brothers who “fate helps”. Suleiman I Qanuni wrote to his rebellious son Bayazid:

The future had to be left to the Lord, because kingdoms are not ruled by human desires, but by God's will. If he decides to give the state after me to you, then not a single living soul will be able to stop him.

According to tradition, the sons of the Sultan were appointed by the rulers of various provinces of the empire, called sanjaks (the mother of the shehzadeh went with him to rule his harem and dispose of his servants). The princes were strictly forbidden to leave their sanjaks. Everything changed after the death of the Sultan: his successor was the one of the brothers who, after the death of his father, managed to be the first to get from his sandjak to Constantinople, take possession of the treasury and conduct the ceremony of enthronement "Julius", having taken the oath from officials, ulema and troops. Supporters of the aspirants in Constantinople, naturally, tried to help their candidates: messengers sent to other brothers were intercepted, the gates of the city were closed, the roads were blocked, sometimes the Janissaries rose up, the great viziers perished. In general, during the periods of interregnum in the Ottoman Empire it was often very "interesting". The closest province to the capital was Manisa - the sons of all sultans fiercely competed for the appointment to this sanjak.


Manisa on the map of modern Turkey

Later Manisa became the unofficial capital of the heirs to the throne.

In 2019, the дажеehzadeler Park was even opened in Manisa, where you can see statues of Ottoman princes and small copies of the city's historic buildings:



But the stay of the shehzade in Manisa, as we will see later, did not guarantee the ascension to the throne: out of 16 princes who ruled (independently or formally) this sanjak, only 8 became sultans.

The Fatih law was systematically applied until 1603: during this time, 37 princes were killed for reasons of Nizam-I Alem. But even after 1603, the Ottoman rulers sometimes recalled this law - until 1808.

The power struggle of the sons of Mehmed Fatih


Meanwhile, Mehmed II himself had three sons from different wives. One of them, Mustafa, died in 1474 at the age of 23 while Mehmed was still alive. After the death of his father in 1481, Shehzade Bayazid II (born in 1448) and his younger brother Cem (or Zizim, born in 1459) entered the struggle for the throne of the Ottoman Empire.


Portrait of Sultan Bayezid II, British Museum


Portrait of Jem by Pinturicchio

Bayazid knew Arabic and Persian, wrote poetry, was fond of calligraphy, played saz and even tried to compose music (notes of eight of his works have survived). However, Mehmed II probably favored Jem, since the sanjak allocated to this son was closer to the capital. And the grand vizier of Karamanli Mehmed Pasha also did not object to the accession of Cem, since he sent the news of the death of Mehmed II to his sons at the same time. Jem was supposed to arrive in Constantinople first, but the messenger sent to him was detained by the order of the beylerbey Anatolia Sinan Pasha. Therefore, Cem learned about the death of the Sultan 4 days later than his brother.

Bayezid was also supported by the capital's janissaries, who, in revolt, killed the grand vizier. Bayezid thanked them by increasing their content from 2 to 4 acce per day.

Upon learning that Bayezid had already entered Constantinople, Jem realized that in the near future the executioners with a silk cord would appear to him. He had nowhere to retreat, and therefore he seized the old capital of the empire - Bursa, declared himself sultan and began to mint money on his own behalf. Thus, Fatih's law "misfired" at the first attempt to apply it.

Cem suggested Bayazid to divide the state into two parts, which the new sultan was categorically not satisfied with. The strength was on his side: in a short-term military campaign, after 18 days, Jem was defeated and fled to Cairo.

Bayezid won, but his younger brother literally became a thorn in his heart for many years: he was a legitimate claimant to the throne and, since it was not possible to kill him, it was impossible to say unequivocally that “fate favored” Bayazid. Jem could still return to Constantinople: as a result of a palace coup, a revolt of the Janissaries, or with an enemy army.

Meanwhile, disappointed by the scale of the help provided to him by the Mamelukes, Jem, at the invitation of the Grand Master of the Order of the Knights Hospitaller Pierre d'Aubusson, arrived on the island of Rhodes.

Aubusson was a man known throughout Europe: it was he who in 1480 led the heroic defense of Rhodes from the huge Ottoman fleet, after which the Hospitallers received the proud nickname "Lions of Rhodes".


Pierre d'Aubusson

But Aubusson was not only a warrior, but also a subtle and unprincipled diplomat. Having obtained a rival Bayezid, he entered into negotiations with Sultan Bayezid, promising that Jem would never return to Constantinople. For this service, he asked for a mere "trifle" - an annual "subsidy" in the amount of 45 thousand ducats, an amount comparable to the annual income of the Order of John. The opinion and feelings of Jem Aubusson himself were interested in the last turn. Bayezid tried to organize the poisoning of his brother, but achieved only that the concerned hospitallers transferred him to one of their castles in France. Bayazid still had to agree to the payment of "subsidies", however, the price was brought down: 40 thousand instead of 45. After that, Pope Innocent VIII joined the game with Jem, who tried to organize a Crusade against the Ottomans, and a pocket contender for the throne seemed to him useful ...


Pope Innocent VIII

On the other hand, the Sultan of Egypt offered Aubusson 100 thousand for Jem. And Bayezid II offered French King Charles VIII assistance in the war with Egypt - in exchange for Jem, of course (recall that shehzadeh was on French territory at that time).

The victory in this struggle was won by Pope Innocent VIII, who, as compensation, elevated Aubusson to the rank of cardinal. In the spring of 1489, Jem was brought to Rome, where his conditions of detention improved significantly, but he still remained a prisoner, albeit very valuable. Innocent officially declared that Cem remained faithful to Islam and recognized him as the legitimate ruler of the Ottoman Empire. Bayazid, who evaluated this move, after another unsuccessful attempts to eliminate his brother, was now forced to “subsidize” the Pope, and even periodically send him various Christian relics that were at his disposal.

In 1492, Alexander VI (Borgia) was elected the new pope, who accepted Turkish money as willingly as his predecessor. Bayezid assured him in his letters:

Our friendship with the help of God will grow stronger day by day.

Then the sultan decided to raise the rates and offered 300 thousand ducats in case Jem's soul "replaces this vale of sorrow for a better world." So he seduced Alexander:

Your Holiness will be able to buy principality for your sons.

But Bayezid's ambassadors on their way to Rome were captured by Giovanni della Rovere, the brother of the cardinal who would later become Pope Julius III, and this caused a scandal that prevented the deal. Alexander now tried to sell Cem to the French king Charles VIII, but the Ottoman prince died unexpectedly (in 1495) - probably from natural causes, since his death was completely unprofitable for Alexander VI. After 4 years, Jem's body was handed over to Bayezid, who ordered to bury him in Bursa.

Bayezid II turned out to be a very good ruler. He was in power for over 30 years, took personal part in 5 campaigns, won a four-year war against Venice, during which naval guns were first used in the naval battle of Sapienza. He went down in history thanks to two noble deeds. By his order, Turkish ships under the command of Admiral Kemal Reis evacuated from Andalusia part of the Sephardi Jews expelled by the "Catholic kings" Isabella and Ferdinand: they were settled in Istanbul, Edirne, Thessaloniki, Izmir, Manis, Bursa, Gelibol, Amasya and some others cities. Bayezid II also rendered great assistance to the population of Constantinople after the catastrophic earthquake of September 1509 (it went down in history under the name "The Little End of the World"). As a result, he even earned the nickname "Wali" - "Saint" or "Friend of Allah", but the end of his life was sad.

Selim I against father and brothers


Bayazid II had eight sons, but only three of them survived to adulthood: Ahmed, Selim and Korkut. Fatih Selim, who knew about the law, strongly suspected his father of sympathy for Ahmed. Therefore, he decided to act without waiting for the death of the Sultan: he moved the army of his sanjak to Constantinople, the center of which was Semendir (now Smederevo, Serbia). In August 1511, he was defeated and was forced to flee to the Crimea, where Kafa's beylerbey was his son Suleiman - the future sultan, whom the Turks would call Qanuni (Legislator), and the Europeans - Magnificent.

On this map you can see the Ottoman possessions in Crimea:


Here Selim also managed to enlist the support of Khan Mengli I Girai, to whose daughter he was married.


Crimean Khan Mengli I Giray

And the victorious sultan now did not trust Ahmed, whom he forbade to appear in Constantinople. Meanwhile, Selim and Mengli-Girey did not sit idly by: along the coast of the Black Sea, their army reached Adrianople, and in the capital at that time, the supporters of this shehzade revolted the Janissaries. In these circumstances, Bayezid II chose to relinquish the throne, giving it to Selim. Already 43 days after the abdication, on April 25, 1512, the former sultan unexpectedly died on the way to Didimotik's hometown. Well-founded suspicions are expressed that he was poisoned by the order of Selim, who still felt insecure on the throne and feared the return of the popular ruler to Constantinople.

Ahmed did not recognize his younger brother as a sultan. He retained part of his possessions in Anatolia and was not going to surrender to Selim's executioners.

On April 24, 1513, a battle took place near Yenisheher near Bursa, in which the army of Ahmed was defeated.


Battle of Selim and Ahmed at Yenisehir

Ahmed was captured and executed. Following him, Korkut, who recognized Selim as Sultan, was strangled with a silk cord.

Now no one could with weapons in the hands of challenging the power of Selim I. However, the new Sultan was not reassured by the death of his father and brothers: he ordered to kill all his relatives in the male line, for which he received the nickname Yavuz - "Cruel", "Fierce". Selim confirmed his cruelty when, in 1513, he ordered the extermination of up to 45 thousand Shiites in Anatolia between the ages of 7 and 70. This sultan was also very intolerant of his entourage: the order to execute dignitaries of even the highest rank could be given at any moment. In those days, there was even a proverb in the empire: "So that you can be a vizier with Selim." At the same time, he wrote poems (under the pseudonym Talibi), which were published in Germany on the initiative of Wilhelm II. He also composed music: I read that you can hear it during a tour of Top Kapa (I personally, however, did not hear it). There is a legend that during the stay of Shehzade Selim in the Trabzon sandjak, he, dressed as a simple wanderer, went on exploration to Iran, visiting Shah Ishmael, who allegedly did not refuse anyone who wanted to play chess with him. Selim lost the first game, won the second. It is said that the Shah enjoyed playing and communicating with an unknown partner so much that he gave him 1000 gold coins as a parting gift. Selim hid this money, later he surprised everyone when he ordered one of the military leaders who distinguished themselves in the war with Persia to take what he "finds under the stone."


Portrait of Sultan Selim I, British Museum

Selim I ruled for only 8 years, but during this time he managed to increase the territory of the state he inherited by about 70 percent. During this time, the Ottomans captured Kurdistan, western Armenia, Syria, Palestine, Arabia and Egypt. Venice paid tribute to him for the island of Cyprus. It was during the reign of Selim I that the famous corsair Khair ad-Din Barbarossa entered the Ottoman service (which was described in the article Islamic pirates of the Mediterranean).


Hyr ad Din Barbarossa

At the same time, the Istanbul shipyard was built. Under Selim I, the Ottoman Empire gained control over two important trade routes - the Great Silk and the Spice Road. And Selim himself in 1517 received the keys to the sacred cities of Mecca and Medina and the title of "Ruler of the Two Shrines", but modestly asked to call himself their "Servant". They even said that he wore a "slave" earring in his left ear as a sign that he was "also a slave, but a slave of Allah Almighty."


Ottoman Empire in the year of the death of Selim I

This sultan died in September 1522, anthrax is considered the most likely cause of his death.

In the next article, we will continue our story about the law of Fatih and its sacrifices.

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  1. Hunter 2
    Hunter 2 9 November 2020 05: 47 New
    13
    Great start to your work week! Excellent again Article by Valery Ryzhov with magnificent illustrations! I will definitely reread and admire the pictures! To the author - Respect! good hi
  2. Korsar4
    Korsar4 9 November 2020 05: 55 New
    11
    An interesting continuation. The topic of fratricide for the throne is inexhaustible.

    During the quarantine captivity, the net began to throw up pieces from the "Magnificent Age".
    People live differently.

    Probably closer is the position of the Turtle from "Chuang Tzu": to live in a swamp, and drag your tail.
    True, sometimes a swamp can become a Goat Swamp.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 9 November 2020 10: 20 New
      +8
      Here, after all, this is what a "spree", Sergey. "Goat swamps" are different. They are like "moments". "Some shame, some disgrace, and some immortality." (FROM)
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 9 November 2020 10: 33 New
        +6
        Of course. There are no universal recipes.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 9 November 2020 10: 37 New
          +6
          So, out of sporting interest ... And which city did you mean when writing the previous comment?
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 9 November 2020 11: 09 New
            +8
            Moscow. The goat bog later became known as the Patriarch's Ponds.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 9 November 2020 11: 14 New
              +8
              It's funny. And I am Rome and Kiev. I found out about Peter only when I got into the topic.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 9 November 2020 19: 23 New
                +4
                There can be many associations, including operetta.
            2. Catfish
              Catfish 9 November 2020 12: 23 New
              +8
              Hello, Sergey. hi
              It's funny, I've lived almost all my life in Moscow, so much wine was drunk on "the same bench", but I only learned about Goat's Swamp just now.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 9 November 2020 19: 25 New
                +5
                I suspect that in the center of Moscow, every stone could tell a long story.

                Hi Constantine!
                1. Phil77
                  Phil77 9 November 2020 20: 15 New
                  +4
                  Quote: Korsar4
                  each stone could tell a long story.


                  To your attention one of these stones! hi
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 9 November 2020 21: 41 New
                    +3
                    Yes. Not far from the same cheburechnaya.
      2. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 9 November 2020 13: 08 New
        +3
        Tareverdiev's song from "Seventeen Moments of Spring"
  3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 November 2020 05: 56 New
    17
    Until you endured!
    Valeria is definitely a plus !!!
    It's sad where Vyacheslav Olegovich got lost.
    1. Hunter 2
      Hunter 2 9 November 2020 05: 58 New
      11
      Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Until you endured!
      Valeria is definitely a plus !!!
      It's sad where Vyacheslav Olegovich got lost.

      Really jinxed ... so happy that Two excellent authors spoil us with their articles in the History section ... hi
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 9 November 2020 06: 10 New
      13
      I hope my health is all right.

      And to issue articles in newspaper mode is still beyond my understanding.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 November 2020 07: 10 New
        12
        Your words Mikhail, yes to God in the ears!
    3. kalibr
      kalibr 9 November 2020 12: 29 New
      16
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      It's sad where Vyacheslav Olegovich got lost.

      Was sick, Vyacheslav Olegovich. I almost gave my soul to God. I already wrote, just in case, to whom to write the obituary ... Together with my wife they were very sick ... And even now: 25 meters to walk to the store is a feat!
      1. VLR
        9 November 2020 12: 38 New
        11
        I think and hope that the worst is over, Get well soon!
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 9 November 2020 15: 27 New
          10
          Thank you, Valery! It was a great consolation to me these days to read your materials. Boredom is mortal ... and you wander from idleness, which is generally painful for me.
        2. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 10 November 2020 07: 54 New
          +2
          Valery, you +, even though Vyacheslav Olegovich is your rival, but you wish him a speedy recovery.
          The fact that Vyacheslav Olegovich is your competitor is largely the fault of the moderators: they are too lazy to make a good "grid".
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 November 2020 14: 48 New
        +7
        God grant Vyacheslav Olegovich health, take care of yourself and your loved ones!
        However, all of us it will not hurt in this chaotic and hectic time, your Cat!
        1. depressant
          depressant 9 November 2020 15: 23 New
          +7
          Dear Vyacheslav Olegovich, you really missed! Thank God that everything worked out.
          Health to you and your spouse! love
          And now you have to rely on vitamins - do not neglect!
          And thanks to the wonderful Author Ryzhov for supporting the "History" column while you were away. Hope to see you both in the future.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 9 November 2020 15: 29 New
            +8
            Thank you, Lyudmila Yakovlevna! We have so many vitamins here ... and my wife also has diabetes, so there are special vitamins for diabetics. "We eat in three throats"! And caviar - ha ha!
            1. vladcub
              vladcub 9 November 2020 21: 23 New
              +4
              Q. OH, HEALTH TO YOU and WIFE. !!!!!
              You and Valery WEBSITE DECORATION
        2. kalibr
          kalibr 9 November 2020 15: 27 New
          +7
          Thank you, Vladislav! The time is really disgusting ...
      3. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 9 November 2020 15: 00 New
        +7
        I join Valery and Vlad.
        Get well. hi
      4. Phil77
        Phil77 9 November 2020 18: 42 New
        +6
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, our dear author!
        That's just pinned down from work, sat down to read and then ... bam !!!! I learn about your illness.
        With all my heart I wish you and your wife good health! Get well soon! We need you! Without you and your materials IN, it's not IN! Once again, health !!!!! hi
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 9 November 2020 18: 47 New
          +6
          Thank you, Sergey! Very moved. But you also take care of yourself. This is how we took care and - bam, both almost on the same day! But no chance can be neglected anyway!
      5. ee2100
        ee2100 9 November 2020 23: 12 New
        +2
        Health is a potential customer!
      6. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 10 November 2020 07: 40 New
        +4
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, dear. ! I didn't see you yesterday. It was Mikhail "trilobite" who scared me with his Fatih.
        Yesterday many people conveyed their wishes to you for health, but please accept my wishes for a speedy recovery too.
        Sometimes I was ready to bite you, before that you pissed me off, but even then I understood that everyone has their own vision of certain events. And how many times I have kissed you for your work.
        Once again, I wish you and your wife a speedy recovery. Without you there is melancholy and Valery alone is difficult
    4. vladcub
      vladcub 9 November 2020 21: 17 New
      +5
      Namesake, greetings. I'm worried myself, what happened to him? God forbid, that seriously, Valery alone will remain against Obscurantism and lockdowns.
      PS Although I got "self-isolation", I would not refuse to "self-isolate for a month, but not myself, but with .... a good figure. So that the authorities do not see."
      Che is cool "nakuvyrkaeshsya" and call the chief: "Ale, I'm glad to come, but I have a" crown ". Perhaps you will drop in"?
  4. tlauicol
    tlauicol 9 November 2020 06: 10 New
    +9
    O tempora! O mores! as they say in Istanbul crying
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 9 November 2020 11: 19 New
      +8
      O tempora! O mores! as they say in Istanbul

      Terrible age! Horrible hearts! (A.S. Pushkin). crying
      1. depressant
        depressant 9 November 2020 15: 37 New
        +8
        O fucking Fortuna!
        I started to go to the VO through the profile, and everything would be fine, but today Google wrote that this was a mistake, and for some time I was not allowed to enter the VO even through the application. Probably for being loose on the topic of space. Well, I began to ponder what to say if the FSB came - bully, repent, or giggle foolishly. And then she began to bake pies with apples - a productive activity! )))
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 9 November 2020 16: 36 New
          +6
          if the FSB comes, - bully, repent or giggle foolishly.

          For a girl - definitely giggle! love
          And then she began to bake pies with apples - a productive activity! )))

          And right! good
          - How are you distracted, Elijah?
          - I'm chopping wood. And you?
          - Ringing the bells ...
          (film "The Taming of the Shrew").
          Lyudmila Yakovlevna, everyone is having fun as best they can. The main thing is to distract from dull thoughts. And a hobby is generally addictive. I bought a spinning rod on Friday ... wassat Never caught on him, but here - I wanted! fellow drinks
          1. depressant
            depressant 9 November 2020 17: 40 New
            +7
            Agree! Hobbies are cool! good
            Now, between visits to the VO, I am writing the so-called "black draft" of the proof of the next lemma - this is my hobby))) For I have repeatedly come across the fact that the authors of proofs even in school textbooks (collected in the garbage) often rely on the so-called intuitive understanding of the reader. This is permissible in literature in the form of a subtext, second and even third meanings, when one sees fascinating adventures, and the other criticizes the existing order. But in mathematics this is not the case. I stumbled over a misunderstanding of one thing, I didn’t syntuichil, and then I don’t need to read, it will be unclear. There are lectures and seminars to clarify the misunderstandings. I'm trying to explain everything! But there is a limit. Under the pile of explanations, the main idea may not be highlighted. It is there, but not visible. I am looking for a middle ground, rather, for myself: I recently found drafts of 5 years ago, began to read and thought: how did I do this? For what reasons? And she didn't explain! I was horrified and now I suffer. This is my dangerous hobby. The brain is constantly in working tension)))
            And I caught fish. Bychkov)))
            1. not main
              not main 9 November 2020 22: 56 New
              +2
              Quote: depressant
              But in mathematics this is not the case. I stumbled on a misunderstanding of one thing,

              Quote: depressant
              depressant (lyudmila yakovlevna kuznetsova)

              As it does not fit! Freudian slip!
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 9 November 2020 18: 43 New
            +4
            Well yes! Dynamite is over ... request
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 10 November 2020 09: 46 New
              +3
              Well yes! Dynamite is over ...

              You asked?drinks Here, I finished the "fascist" last night. I will not paint - for the sake of interest, glue. The details are good, some stick tightly without glue. yes
          3. ee2100
            ee2100 9 November 2020 23: 16 New
            +4
            Today I dismantled the garage - I found 2 spinning rods, one of the Soviet times, I never caught it. Almost in oil.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 10 November 2020 09: 44 New
              +2
              Today I dismantled the garage - I found 2 spinning rods, one of the Soviet times, I never caught it. Almost in oil.

              Oh, cool! good and I have never caught on it ... So, now I decided to master it. This is my daddy a fisherman, he grew up on Khopr, he lives on Volkhov - that fisherman, so a fisherman ... And I - so, an amateur amateur! drinks
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 9 November 2020 18: 42 New
          +4
          My site was also buggy today. Maybe the server fell where ...
          1. depressant
            depressant 9 November 2020 19: 08 New
            +4
            So you shouldn't wait for the FSB to come? It wasn't them. And I was already puffed up, raised my own importance above the plinth by as much as a millimeter. And only somewhere, somewhere glitched wassat
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 9 November 2020 19: 17 New
              +4
              So you shouldn't wait for the FSB to come?
              Do not flatter yourself. Agent Smith is worth waiting for.
              1. depressant
                depressant 9 November 2020 20: 53 New
                +4
                And, so it is now, then, such a Morse code. Via phased array antenna, complete with Starlink receiving terminal. Here it is ... I barely recognized Smith! )))
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 9 November 2020 21: 21 New
                  +5

                  I am sending the composite
                  1. Phil77
                    Phil77 9 November 2020 21: 39 New
                    +4
                    Quote: 3x3zsave
                    I am sending the composite

                    I will add accomplices! laughing

                    Look at their faces! They are very dangerous when detained.
                    1. Lexus
                      Lexus 10 November 2020 05: 29 New
                      +4
                      Hello! hi
                      He chased "Tartarostanians" in "news" and "politics" - nothing will help them, except rat poison. But now I read Valery's excellent article and your equally fascinating comments. So, the worst lie is self-deception. True, whatever it is, is always stronger. With her, no FSB, Smiths and other "overseers for proper security" are afraid. The choice of the main character in the film "Matrix" is indicative. And in terms of color too. I am responsible for the quality, entirely yours. Morpheus.wink

                      Neo had a choice between a blue capsule, which would allow him to remain in the illusory reality created by the Matrix, and a red capsule, with which he could get out of the Matrix into the real world. The hero chooses reality - a red capsule.

                  2. depressant
                    depressant 9 November 2020 21: 52 New
                    +3
                    Which of the many Smiths is this? Let him tell you the password! But these, faded, why did they come? Spy Ivanov lives on the floor above !!
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 9 November 2020 21: 57 New
                      +3
                      You are asking too much of the character set in binary
                      1. depressant
                        depressant 9 November 2020 22: 05 New
                        +4
                        No! In hex he is! You can see it by the glasses.
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 9 November 2020 22: 12 New
                        +3
                        So. Remind, please, the hexadecimal number system, I even forgot a little ...
                      3. depressant
                        depressant 9 November 2020 22: 17 New
                        +3
                        Cunning?!? I won't give out the secret code! I have paid for it and have already spent. tongue
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 9 November 2020 22: 23 New
                        +3
                        Welcome to our professional spy club! Who do you work for? I'm on the Mossad. Shpakovsky, at Intelledzhen Service. Trilobite master, for Mongolian intelligence ...
                      5. depressant
                        depressant 9 November 2020 22: 33 New
                        +4
                        Thanks for the invitation! Accepted! Flattered. I, as always, work for the Martians. A little about our plans and R&D. Currently, our underground laboratory in the cliffs of the Crimean coast is developing a device that can drown out that terrible melody from which the brain explodes in Martians. The tune being worked on is a state secret of the Martian colony. And so that I could not betray the secret as a representative for public relations of the colony with earthlings and dugouts, they wiped it from my memory!
                      6. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 9 November 2020 22: 38 New
                        +4
                        OK! Say hello to Tim Burton!
                      7. depressant
                        depressant 9 November 2020 22: 45 New
                        +4
                        Bliiin ... Where is the hole in the cipher? It was encrypted, encrypted, but not re-encrypted. Should I go, maybe the Martians are bursting with a melody? I'm not theirs, so they give me a secret. The show fight law.
                      8. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 9 November 2020 22: 53 New
                        +5
                        Don't be so upset! I just worked for the Martians before the Mossad. But the Jews offered more.
                      9. ee2100
                        ee2100 9 November 2020 23: 19 New
                        +2
                        Hopefully in shekels? laughing
                      10. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 9 November 2020 23: 27 New
                        +5
                        No, they promised to pay off with helium-3, after they buy out a share in the lunar hospital from the Chinese.
                      11. ee2100
                        ee2100 9 November 2020 23: 35 New
                        +3
                        Are you hoping that the shekel will be equated to helium 3?
                      12. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 9 November 2020 23: 44 New
                        +4
                        I hope that a stake in its production will allow me to become a minority shareholder in the Moon Endustrial Corporation and buy a site on Gunnymede.
                      13. ee2100
                        ee2100 9 November 2020 23: 47 New
                        +3
                        Shares in your hands!
                      14. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 9 November 2020 23: 49 New
                        +3
                        And good futurology to you!
                      15. ee2100
                        ee2100 9 November 2020 23: 50 New
                        +3
                        Why should I? I trust in the cue ball!
  • Phil77
    Phil77 10 November 2020 18: 54 New
    +3
    Quote: depressant
    But these, faded, why did they come?

    And they came to drive the Albigensians, the Unconscious. laughing
    1. depressant
      depressant 10 November 2020 19: 48 New
      +2
      They've sealed me, infidels! fool
      I don’t deny the doctrine of the forthcoming Last Judgment - on the contrary! I admit the existence of Hell and Paradise, but I have not read the Old Testament, but I approve. I do not belong to the Albigensian sect! tongue
    2. Phil77
      Phil77 10 November 2020 20: 26 New
      +2
      Oops! winked
      * A mistake has occurred. It is a matter of state, mistakes are always possible. The guys have drunk a little, burn with zeal. It's a difficult time, you understand. *. wassat lol love
    3. depressant
      depressant 10 November 2020 21: 25 New
      +1
      It's funny for you, but what did the guys drink? Now times are dangerous, dashing, and judging by the behavior of a mistake that went out somewhere without saying anything, and wanders, peeping now from one corner, then from another, shouting accusations of the heresy of the Qataris in my direction, drinking, watch it is necessary for the hands of a neighbor who was drinking next to him, for he turned away, and he took into your glass and poured the now fashionable battle potion, and now you are rushing not like a kid, but still not in an innocent direction, elated and embraced, with a lyre in his hands. Vaughn, Navalny relaxed, and ...
      Hmmm ... kruchina, however (((
    4. Phil77
      Phil77 10 November 2020 21: 32 New
      +1
      Quote: depressant
      It's funny for you, but what did the guys drink?

      Lyudmila Yakovlevna! Good evening! And this is a quote! A quote from the Strugatskys! A quote from * It's hard to be a god. * wink
      Did you buy me now ???
    5. depressant
      depressant 10 November 2020 21: 43 New
      +1
      Good evening, Seryozha !!)))
      If you had not said that the quote from "It is difficult to be a god", I would have thought it was "A billion years before the end of the world." There, such a question could well have been asked by one of the "tonton-macoutes", as the Strugatskys called them, who came to the hero to exert psychological pressure on him))
  • Phil77
    Phil77 10 November 2020 21: 09 New
    +2
    Quote: depressant
    They've sealed me, infidels!

    You are heavy, Albigensian share! wink laughing
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 10 November 2020 21: 48 New
    +2
    “And the ghosts of old wounds hurt the weather,
    So that they received it under the wall of Carcassonne ”(c).
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 10 November 2020 09: 33 New
    +2
    Do not flatter yourself. Agent Smith is worth waiting for.

    The main thing is not Sam Smith ... lol there is such a singer ... sweet of the sweet .. Well, you understand. wink Only Sir Elton John is sweeter than him ... tongue
    1. depressant
      depressant 10 November 2020 21: 49 New
      +2
      Here it is, the main concern of the anti-albigoinist - so that the golden-haired Phoebus-tempter does not appear, gleaming with his eyes, ambiguously hinting at the bad and openly proposing it. How difficult it is to live! laughing wassat
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 10 November 2020 21: 55 New
        +1
        Quote: depressant
        How difficult it is to live!

        Let's have a smoke, our way, Brazilian?

        Life will get better? wink
        1. depressant
          depressant 10 November 2020 22: 23 New
          +1
          Come on! So I just lit my cheap smuggled ones, but long and with a long mouthpiece, imagining myself a lady from high society (although the cigarettes are of the same price category as "Prima"), and felt an urgent need to tell the truth. Calling everything with the names that match. And all these "Armenian" events - naming, and the reshuffle in the government - naming, when those who are on the right hand of the overlord in the meeting room are seated on the left, and vice versa, and only in exceptional cases some are brought out to the folding hallway, and these Ottomans, ancient and current, and Albanian commanders - calling, and many other things calling it as it is ... But everything dissolved in rings of cigarette smoke, turning into bright sadness because of the impossibility of prioritizing - who to name first, how he deserves it ... With us, the Martians, everything is simple - which of the earthlings fell under the hot hand, that is at the expense!
  • parusnik
    parusnik 9 November 2020 06: 19 New
    11
    Under Selim I, the Ottoman Empire gained control over two important trade routes - the Great Silk and the Spice Road.
    ... And the Europeans had to look for other trade routes, "oats", in the sense of spice, became inconceivably expensive ..
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 9 November 2020 06: 28 New
      +8
      Right. One door closes - another opens. And then the papal bull appears - and the world is divided in half. True, not everyone will agree with this. An eternal story.
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 9 November 2020 06: 33 New
        +9
        And then the papal bull appears
        ... It all started with a trifle, with the Crusades .. smile
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 9 November 2020 06: 44 New
          +8
          If we look for the beginning, we will come to the creation of the world.
          But each spice has its own story. And it never ceases to admire.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 9 November 2020 17: 04 New
            +6
            But each spice has its own story. And it never ceases to admire.

            Hmm ... hinting ... I wink hard, hard ... wink that "someone" needs to strongly, strongly share their knowledge with good people - in the form of articles ... We can start with spices ... or we can also with Hannibal potatoes ... wink drinks
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 9 November 2020 19: 29 New
              +4
              Natalia Georgievna Zamyatina has a whole cycle of conversations about spices.

              She also embodies it all.

              Let's first deal with my mandatory program.

              And then someone should clean the Augean stables.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 10 November 2020 09: 34 New
                +2
                Let's first deal with my mandatory program.

                Dealing with the obligatory, one must always keep the arbitrary in mind - for creative development! drinks
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 10 November 2020 09: 47 New
                  +3
                  I don't even argue. I am distracted by such nonsense.
                  And now I know - for creative development.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 9 November 2020 07: 37 New
    14
    Phew, thank God, Valery is here.
    Comrades, I'm running away to work. Then I will savor
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 9 November 2020 07: 50 New
    12
    Monday did not start with obscurantism. smile .Thank you for the article.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 9 November 2020 15: 30 New
      +9
      Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
      Monday did not start with obscurantism.

      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  • VLR
    9 November 2020 08: 23 New
    12
    By the way, it is curious that exactly this method of transferring power (called traditional) was seen by the audience in the Hollywood film Stardust (2007): the princes of the magic kingdom begin to kill each other even before their father's death, and after his death the process accelerates tragically. In the shot below, the challenger on the left is using poison - the wine in one of the glasses is poisoned:

    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 9 November 2020 10: 09 New
      10
      The method of transferring power, described by the Strugatskys, is more interesting and pleasant.
      1. depressant
        depressant 9 November 2020 15: 43 New
        +5
        Anton, darted through the memory gully, and did not find anything similar. Unless you mean don Rabu with his clerical army.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 9 November 2020 15: 50 New
          +5
          My respect, Lyudmila Yakovlevna! "Snail on the slope".
          1. depressant
            depressant 9 November 2020 16: 10 New
            +6
            And my respect to you! But you really puzzled me. We'll have to reread - even kill, I don't remember who transferred power to whom. Probably the ones in the forest. Those that "This, this is more cheerful! This right, this left!" )))
            In general, I'll open it right now and start - all the same, I reread the Strugatskys all the time, but "The Snail" is not a favorite, although, they say, software for the Strugatskys.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 9 November 2020 16: 16 New
              +4
              Should I be spoiler or leave the intrigue?
              1. depressant
                depressant 9 November 2020 16: 59 New
                +3
                And what do you think? I read up to the 5th page on libcat.ru, and instead of that page, a giant message in English comes out that I made some dangerous mistake and in order to fix it, do this, this, the fifth, and at the same time the tenth. It was then that I thoroughly faded. This race today with the pursuit of me all over the Internet by some unidentified, obviously unmanifest entities, has fundamentally undermined my mental strength.
                So, colleague, outline! All the same, I read it once)))
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 9 November 2020 17: 08 New
                  +4
                  The character who had sexual intercourse with the secretary became the Director.
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 9 November 2020 17: 42 New
                    +2
                    Well, not Peretz? )))
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 9 November 2020 17: 44 New
                      +3
                      It is he! True, he was unaware of this secretary's option.
                      1. depressant
                        depressant 9 November 2020 18: 38 New
                        +4
                        I completely forgot! Probably because the reality was described in a surreal format, from which in the 80s I already wanted to escape. Or not to notice her. But even 4 pages just read suddenly indicated an analogy with "The Doomed City" - an analogy that she had never drawn before, because it had not been linked. In "The City" all the characters are inhabitants of the valley under the cliff, that is, the bottom, and there are all sorts of things, but everyone wanders in search of truth; the characters in "The Snail" are inhabitants of the top of the cliff, that is, the upper strata of society, and their perception of those from below is shown. Convincingly shown. Apparently, the belief has a persistent and even indestructible character.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 9 November 2020 09: 15 New
    10
    Thank you, Valery!
    I noticed an interesting point. All Ottoman sultans are bearded. The exception was made by two people, one of them - Selim.
    1. Daniil Konovalenko
      Daniil Konovalenko 9 November 2020 10: 57 New
      +5
      All Ottoman sultans are bearded. The exception was two people, one of them - Selim
      .
      ..Islam, does not forbid shaving ..
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 9 November 2020 11: 06 New
        +6
        Somewhere - yes, somewhere - no. Depending on the "obsession" of the imam.
        1. Daniil Konovalenko
          Daniil Konovalenko 9 November 2020 11: 11 New
          +5
          Type of taste smile as you like.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 9 November 2020 12: 39 New
            +6
            By and large, Islam does not prohibit anything at all.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 9 November 2020 16: 21 New
              +3
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              By and large, Islam does not prohibit anything at all.

              Greetings! hi In addition to paganism, usury and homosexuality - nothing, by and large
    2. Undecim
      Undecim 9 November 2020 11: 15 New
      11
      As for the beard of this sultan, there is a story that only after taking the throne, he heard the conversation of those close to him that they would "take him by the beard," like his father.
      So he shaved his beard, hinted in such a way that he would rule on his own.
  • Glory1974
    Glory1974 9 November 2020 09: 44 New
    +5
    Terrible to kill your brothers, and even based on the law. Just medieval barbarism.
    In the last photo, a frame from the film "The Magnificent Age", when the Sultan gives the order to kill his son, suspected of trying to seize power.
    1. VLR
      9 November 2020 10: 29 New
      11
      Shehzade Mustafa, killed by order of Suleiman the Magnificent. This (and not only) will be discussed in the next article.
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 9 November 2020 11: 49 New
      +6
      Just medieval barbarism.
      It remains to understand what you know about the Middle Ages ... crying
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 November 2020 14: 55 New
        +7
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Just medieval barbarism.
        It remains to understand what you know about the Middle Ages ... crying

        So this "barbarism" in the Middle Ages is happening! I overstepped the timeline a bit, but not enough to faint! good
        Oh, the Greeks would know what labels descendants put on the innocent signs of "barbarism"!
        From memory: leather pants; drink undiluted wine and speak incomprehensibly !!!
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 9 November 2020 15: 11 New
          +7
          That's not the point, Vlad! I am chilled out by cliched thinking. There is a dogma hammered in by generations of school textbooks, "the dark Middle Ages", and people repeat, over and over again, the postulate engraved on the cerebral cortex!
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 9 November 2020 15: 34 New
            +7
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            hammered by generations of school textbooks

            While I was sick, I reread school history textbooks for the 6th grade in 1965 and 66. for evening school and daytime. A very strange feeling, Anton. On the one hand, THERE IS NOT BETTER AND CANNOT BE, on the other ... the story in them is castrated to the limit!
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 9 November 2020 15: 48 New
              +7
              On the one hand, THERE IS BETTER AND CANNOT BE, on the other ... the story in them is castrated to the limit
              Hello, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
              Perhaps this is the right approach. For those who are interested will be interested more and deeper, those who do not care - and so it will do. Another depressing thing is that with the development of means of communication, the "mnyuha" of those "who do not care" prevails.
              1. kalibr
                kalibr 9 November 2020 15: 53 New
                +7
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                Perhaps this is the right approach.

                You know, I think so too. That is, modern textbooks ... EXCESSIVE, including history. But you need a lot of bright and beautiful addition books. I realized this back in 2004 when I wrote a book to read on the history of Wed. centuries KNIGHTS, CASTLES, WEAPONS and books, Knights, God-bearers, Indians for children, published, by the way, in your St. Petersburg. But ... no matter how much now I try to punch through new series of the same books - NOTHING IS SUCCESSFUL!
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 9 November 2020 16: 01 New
                  +7
                  And it will fail. Alas! Nowadays, illustrated scientific pop is not profitable.
                2. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 9 November 2020 16: 44 New
                  +4
                  Quote: kalibr
                  That is, modern textbooks ... EXCESSIVE, including history.

                  I cannot but agree with you, I helped the child with the story (grade 7) and also paid attention to this. For example, why are the wars with the ON with all the details, dates, wars, battles, etc. described? All this, of course, is wonderful, but it seems to me absolutely not necessary for the 7th grade, the assimilation of this material is close to 0. And all this is presented in such a vigorous clerical language that I myself first begin to translate into ordinary Russian.
          2. Daniil Konovalenko
            Daniil Konovalenko 9 November 2020 15: 53 New
            +6
            But nobody pays attention to the gloomy present ... That gloomy Middle Ages, for people living in that era, was commonplace.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 9 November 2020 16: 04 New
              +6
              That gloomy Middle Ages, for people living in that era, was commonplace.
              And that too! There is such a "study" - historical psychology.
              1. Daniil Konovalenko
                Daniil Konovalenko 9 November 2020 16: 10 New
                +8
                I also don’t understand when they begin to resent the dark Middle Ages .. For example, people then sincerely believed in the devil, even wrote manuals on how to deal with him in all seriousness, without sarcasm. They believed in witches. Moreover, they knew where the evil spirits gathered and what they were doing. Surviving eyewitnesses confirm. laughing Also in all possible "church miracles", they are still stupidly believed. smile
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 9 November 2020 16: 23 New
                  +5
                  They believed in witches.
                  They believed it, but even at the end of the 14th century, the accusation of witchcraft was considered so serious that the judges tried to "merge" this into more "civil" cases
                  1. Daniil Konovalenko
                    Daniil Konovalenko 9 November 2020 16: 30 New
                    +4
                    So what am I talking about. It was all quite serious. To be honest, I would equate advertising with witchcraft. laughing
          3. Glory1974
            Glory1974 10 November 2020 09: 01 New
            0
            I am chilled out by cliched thinking. There is a dogma hammered in by generations of school textbooks, "the dark Middle Ages", and people repeat, over and over again, the postulate engraved on the cerebral cortex!

            I do not quite understand what you disagree with. In history there are such concepts as "dark Middle Ages", "renaissance", "era of great geographical discoveries", etc. What do not you like? If you are a fan of alternative history, everything is clear.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 10 November 2020 09: 37 New
              +2
              In history, there are such concepts as "dark Middle Ages",
              There is no such thing in history. There are not even clear boundaries of the era. This is nothing more than a literary stamp.
              1. Glory1974
                Glory1974 10 November 2020 09: 59 New
                0
                There is no such thing in history. There are not even clear boundaries of the era. This is nothing more than a literary stamp.

                In science, as you know, they do not argue about definitions, they agree on them.
                You can call it a literary cliché, but in essence what do you disagree with?
                If you consider the Middle Ages to be the standard of a happy and measured life of citizens, then I would ask, on what basis.
                If you in fact agree that in the Middle Ages the norms of life and morality are very different from those accepted now, and specifically about legalized fratricide, then what is the point of the dispute?
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 10 November 2020 10: 08 New
                  +2
                  I have had the idea of ​​writing several materials about debunking the myths about the "dark Middle Ages" for a long time, perhaps your comments will serve as "critical mass". It cannot be told in a nutshell.
                  1. Glory1974
                    Glory1974 11 November 2020 15: 26 New
                    +1
                    write. I will read it with pleasure.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 11 November 2020 18: 14 New
                      +1
                      Thanks, I will try!
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 9 November 2020 10: 34 New
    +8
    Hello everybody. Dear moderators, thank you for putting Valery on Monday, I regard it as a good sign that you still have something interesting in store for us. Don't disappoint me, or I'll get angry
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 9 November 2020 10: 49 New
      +6
      otherwise I'll get angry
      "And the revenge will be terrible!"
      My Beautiful Stranger! You are incomparable !!! love
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 10: 46 New
    +3
    A state based on fratricide was sooner or later doomed to perish.
    For this is really just beyond everything ...
    Like the ancient Scandinavians:
    Brothers will begin
    fight each other,
    relatives close
    they will die in strife;
    painful in the world
    great fornication,
    the age of swords and axes,
    shields will crack,
    age of storms and wolves
    before the death of the world;
    spare a person
    man will not.
    1. Daniil Konovalenko
      Daniil Konovalenko 9 November 2020 10: 55 New
      10
      The state based on fratricide was sooner or later doomed to perish
      .
      The process of death dragged on for almost 500 years ..
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 9 November 2020 10: 59 New
        +8
        Bravo, comrade !!! I wanted to write myself, but "The Junta managed it earlier"
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 9 November 2020 12: 06 New
          +7
          Cristobal Hozievich, he always had time first. wink
          Hello Anton!
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 9 November 2020 12: 47 New
            +6
            Uncle Kostya! hi
            Well, how to say ... Torquemada was lucky, he died. And the Junta followed the path of Agasfera.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 9 November 2020 14: 16 New
              +6
              I'm not sure if Torquemada was more fortunate. But the Petliurites were not afraid of the Junta, they would have found a common language.
      2. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 11: 57 New
        +2
        So I also wrote "sooner or later". A state based on savage principles was bound to collapse. It also collapsed.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 9 November 2020 12: 23 New
          +5
          Get out! What are the savage principles? The fact that the most capable comes to power !? This is the principle of natural selection. And it is the most acceptable for the biological form of the mind, which we humans are. As for the sociological component, the Ottoman Empire remains almost the only example of the possibilities of the "social lift".
          1. Sergey Oreshin
            Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 14: 19 New
            +4
            Are you seriously? Is killing siblings okay ?? Would you like to kill your brothers to take possession of the inheritance?
            This is a devilish, satanic principle, alien to absolutely all world religions and paganism.
            It is clear that in Christian, Buddhist, and Muslim countries, and among pagans, it happened that brothers fought against brothers, but only the Turks thought of raising it to the rank of law.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 9 November 2020 14: 44 New
              +5
              This is a devilish, satanic principle, alien to absolutely all world religions and paganism.
              Oppanki! Give at least a line from the Torah, the Bible, the Koran, the Elder Edda (after all), implying fratricide by a grave sin?
              1. Sergey Oreshin
                Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 15: 05 New
                +4
                I have already quoted "Elder Edda" here: Völva directly says that one of the signs of the approaching end of the world will be internecine wars between brothers.
                Torah: See the story of Cain's murder of Abel. We read chapter 4: "And the Lord said to Cain: what have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries out to me from the earth; and now you are cursed from the earth, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand; when you till the earth, it will no longer give her strength for you; you will be an exile and a wanderer on earth "
                Hence, in the Russian language, the word - "Cursed", likened to the fratricide Cain.

                In the New Testament, Jesus condemns even the very feeling of anger toward a brother. We read chapter 5 of the Gospel of Matthew “You have heard what the ancients said:“ Do not kill, whoever kills is subject to judgment. ”But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother in vain is subject to judgment; whoever will say to his brother:“ cancer ", is subject to the Sanhedrin; and whoever says," foolish, "is subject to fiery hell. So, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. "

                We read the Koran, the 4th sura: “A believer cannot kill a believer, except by mistake. And whoever kills a believer deliberately, the punishment is eternal Hell. Allah was angry with him, cursed and prepared a great punishment for him. "
                1. Sergey Oreshin
                  Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 15: 06 New
                  +4
                  So from the point of view of the Koran, all the sultans who killed their Muslim brothers are burning in hell
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 9 November 2020 15: 22 New
                    +4
                    Wondering if the ancient Scandinavians burn too?
                    1. Sergey Oreshin
                      Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 16: 36 New
                      +3
                      No, according to their ideas the fratricides were deprived of the right to get into Valhalla and ended up in Hel. Because they voluntarily turned to evil, then in Ragnarok, among other dead, they will fight in the army of Surt and Loki against the aes
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 9 November 2020 16: 44 New
                        +4
                        Does it bother you that the Arabs and Scandinavians have slightly different ideas about hell?
                      2. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 9 November 2020 16: 55 New
                        +3
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Does it bother you that the Arabs and Scandinavians have slightly different ideas about hell?

                        But the principle is the same - punishment in the next world))
                      3. Sergey Oreshin
                        Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 17: 03 New
                        +1
                        But the ideas about fratricide were quite similar - a grave sin, for which the murderer after death loses paradise and goes to hell
              2. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 9 November 2020 17: 21 New
                +3
                I will only note one thing. None of the above passages dealt with the murder of a blood relative, but only condemn such an act in general.
                1. Sergey Oreshin
                  Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 17: 23 New
                  +3
                  In the sense of? Chapter 4 of Genesis is dedicated to a specific fratricide: when Cain killed his brother Abel.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 9 November 2020 17: 34 New
                    +2
                    And in my opinion, the confrontation between sedentary and nomads.
                    1. Sergey Oreshin
                      Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 17: 38 New
                      +3
                      Anton, you first asked me to quote from the sacred books of different religions condemning fratricide. Then they asked for quotes where God condemns a particular fratricide.
                      I brought them.
                    2. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 9 November 2020 17: 42 New
                      +3
                      Sergey, there is a normal discussion going on that does not go beyond correctness. You defend your point of view, I - mine.
              3. Sergey Oreshin
                Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 17: 30 New
                +1
                And here is Sura 5 of the Quran: "Tell them the true story about the two sons of Adam, each of whom brought sacrifice to Allah. But Allah accepted the sacrifice from only one of them. Kabil (Cain), whose Qurban (sacrifice) Allah did not accept, began to envy his brother Habil (Abel). He hated his brother and, threatening him, said: "I will kill you!" Habil replied that Allah accepts the Qurbani from the God-fearing. And he continued: “Even if you raise your hand to kill me, I will not fight you and I will not kill you, although I am stronger than you... Indeed, I fear the punishment of Allah, the Lord of all worlds. If you kill me, then you will answer for this sin and for those sins that you had before that, and you will deserve punishment in hell. This is Allah's punishment for sins. " Kabil killed his brother, following his bad will, and so he became one of those who will be miserable on the Day of Judgment. "
    2. Hantengri
      Hantengri 9 November 2020 23: 37 New
      +4
      Quote: Sergey Oreshin
      So I also wrote "sooner or later". A state based on savage principles was bound to collapse. It also collapsed.


      "Cucumbers will ruin you! Every cucumber eaten brings you closer to death. It's amazing how thinking people have not yet recognized the lethality of this plant product and even resort to its name for comparison in a positive sense (" like a cucumber! "). And despite everything that, the production of canned cucumbers is growing.

      All major bodily ailments and all human misfortunes are associated with cucumbers.

      Almost all people with chronic diseases ate cucumbers. The effect is clearly cumulative.
      99,9% of all people who died of cancer ate cucumbers during their lifetime.
      100% of all soldiers ate cucumbers.
      99,7% of all car and plane crash victims consumed cucumbers in the two weeks leading up to the fatal accident.
      93,1% of all juvenile delinquents come from families where cucumbers were consumed regularly.
      There is also evidence that the harmful effect of cucumbers affects for a very long time: among people born in 1839 and subsequently fed on cucumbers, the mortality rate is 100%. All persons born in 1869 ... 1879 have flabby wrinkled skin, have lost almost all of their teeth, are practically blind (if the diseases caused by the consumption of cucumbers have not brought them to the grave for a long time). Even more convincing is the result obtained by a well-known team of medical scientists: Guinea pigs, which were force-fed 20 pounds of cucumbers a day for a month, lost all appetite!

      The only way to avoid the harmful effects of cucumbers is to change your diet. Eat, for example, swamp orchid soup. From him, as far as we know, no one has died yet. "(C).
  • Undecim
    Undecim 9 November 2020 11: 10 New
    10
    They even said that he wore a "slave" earring in his left ear as a sign that he was "also a slave, but a slave of Allah Almighty."
    The Muslim code of conduct and a set of social norms - fiqh, prohibits men from being like women, including wearing earrings.
    I do not think that the Sultan would violate fiqh.
    1. VLR
      9 November 2020 11: 56 New
      +7
      This earring did not serve as a decoration, but as a mark of slaves in Egypt. There Selim asked why some men wear such earrings. He was told that this was a sign of slaves. Then he allegedly said: I am also a paradise, but not people, but Allah, "and dressed the same. At least, this is what some sources say.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 9 November 2020 14: 20 New
        +7
        Turkish historians categorically deny this point. Recently, a book by the rector of the National Defense University, historian Erhan Afyonku was published, in which this issue was once again raised.
        1. VLR
          9 November 2020 14: 27 New
          +6
          Therefore, I warned at the beginning of this message about the earring: "They even said that he was."
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 9 November 2020 16: 58 New
      +4
      Quote: Undecim
      They even said that he wore a "slave" earring in his left ear as a sign that he was "also a slave, but a slave of Allah Almighty."
      The Muslim code of conduct and a set of social norms - fiqh, prohibits men from being like women, including wearing earrings.
      I do not think that the Sultan would violate fiqh.


      There is a bit of confusion here - there are prescriptions of Islam, and there is adat - local customs. If men in a given area do not make earrings look like women, everything is kosher)).
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 9 November 2020 11: 50 New
    10
    This is a wonderful law of Fatih. Of course, from the point of view of liberal ideology, it does not stand up to any criticism, but from the point of view of political expediency, its merits, in my opinion, outweigh the disadvantages.
    First, "to whom much has been given, from that much will be demanded." No prince could afford to live in complete idleness and idleness, as this meant inevitable death in the inevitable struggle for power. All my life I had to train, gain experience in political struggle, military leadership, intrigue, diplomacy, etc. Otherwise, the lace on the neck was inevitable and they all knew it from birth. And the new sultan ascended the throne as a ready-made ruler, without the need to learn anything.
    Secondly, the destruction of blood relatives saved the state treasury from the need to maintain their yards, harems and other unnecessary expenses (rather large). It is not necessary that the money saved was spent on something good and right, but at least the ruling sultan had a choice.
    Thirdly, the ability to legally kill everyone whom you consider necessary "for the common good" eliminated the need to divide the land. As a result, no "local" dynasties were formed, the unity of the state was preserved. Just don't need me to talk now about the economic prerequisites that contributed to the formation of feudal fragmentation or absolutism. smile Was the unity maintained? It persisted. And the fact that a certain number of noble majors had to pay for this unity with their lives, even if they were not guilty of anything specifically ... Never mind, this can be experienced. smile
    I propose to introduce some semblance of such a law in Russia, taking into account the time and national specifics.
    We now have power, sort of, elective, at all levels. So, I propose to do this:
    The losers of the elections - any in which they participated - are placed at the disposal of the winner, who can determine, in accordance with the law, what to do with the loser. You can, for example, put a competitor in prison for a term of five (elections to local councils) to twenty years or death (presidential elections in the Russian Federation). Moreover, in the presidential elections, I would generally make the death penalty mandatory for losers. On election day, all candidates gather in Moscow and sit, for example, in Lefortovo or Matrosskaya Tishina until the counting of ballots is over. Or at the Cosmos Hotel, it doesn't matter. They counted the ballots, immediately one was taken to the Kremlin, and the rest were taken out into the courtyard and under a machine gun ... Well, in the local elections, let it be simpler - instead of a machine gun immediately without trial and investigation into a paddy wagon and for a certain period firmly established by the winner - in certain limits, of course, and without parole ...
    No, colleagues, whatever you want, but there is some kind of cute charm in Fatih's law. Like a child with a trusting, bright, open gaze of huge blue eyes, who approaches you, holding a heavy butcher's ax from the blade of which still warm blood flows ...
    1. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 12: 05 New
      +6
      I don’t even want to comment.
      What is the foundation of any society?
      In a strong family, where all brothers, uncles, nephews act as one, as one whole, they are always ready to come to each other's aid, help each other out in all situations, and in the event of the death of a relative, they avenge him.
      When brothers, in the name of material wealth and earthly power, begin to cut and choke each other - that's all, guys, put out the light. This is not even paganism (in paganism there are just strong blood-related ties), not Islam (the Koran directly says that "the world here is just a game and fun", and the faithful should think about eternity and the salvation of the soul), this is pure water Satanism, devilry, disguised by arguments about "some state expediency".
      Such a society and state will sooner or later be doomed.
      As for your "proposal" on the elections, everyone knows that the elections in the Russian Federation are pure farce and the candidates are coordinated in advance in the Presidential Administration of the Russian Federation. They are all "parsley" playing giveaway with the "king". So, on the contrary, our tsar-father, light Vladimirovich, is vitally interested in Zhirik. Zyuga and Miron lived as long as possible, because they are absolutely predictable and it is a pleasure to play "giveaway" with them
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 9 November 2020 12: 17 New
      +5
      Awesome, Mikhail! No, just great! I was especially delighted with the last part of the post, as it has already been said here - "Your words, yes God in the ears." Thank you, made me happy, but here's the bad luck:
      "It's a pity - to live in this wonderful time
      You won't have to - neither me, nor you. "(C)
      1. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 14: 22 New
        +3
        Guys, are you serious or kidding?
        Do you really think that killing siblings is "a good way to identify a worthy ruler"?
        Maybe you and your brothers secretly dream to take possession of your father's and grandfather's inheritance ???
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 November 2020 15: 13 New
          +6
          Quote: Sergey Oreshin
          Guys, are you serious or kidding?
          Do you really think that killing siblings is "a good way to identify a worthy ruler"?
          Maybe you and your brothers secretly dream to take possession of your father's and grandfather's inheritance ???

          Sergei is a specific historical period, not in our fatherland and not in our time. The Ottomans had the sin of “solving their problems” in this way, but the first brothers were not uterine, but half-brothers. While waiting, the authorities raised a hand against each other and the parent. By the way, in this "terrarium" there were no less exceptions than the observance of the rules of the game. So the "law of the silk cord" is still that farce, tragedy and big top of one actor!
          Want parallels. Strengthening the old Russian state directly depended on the number of persons remaining in the first echelon of power!
          Svyatoslav, Vladimir, Yaroslav !!! The last two in the course of feuds with siblings. The latter was noted at the dawn of the formation of Christianity in Russia. You can continue on. Power is a terrible tool and family is not an argument. Evidence is the history of our Fatherland! Crooked, sometimes sad, but not dismissive.
          Regards, Kote!
          1. Sergey Oreshin
            Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 15: 19 New
            +5
            This is so, and in Russia the brothers fought with the brothers and even killed each other, but no one even thought of making fratricide a law and considering it the norm.
            Yaropolk Svyatoslavich, after the death of his brother Oleg in battle, cried over his body and said to the governor Sveneld: "Look! You wanted this!"
            For the murder of his brothers Svyatopolk received the nickname "The Cursed One" and disappeared into an unknown place without communion.
            When Prince Vasilko of Terebovl was blinded, other princes left their strife and went to take revenge on his offender.
            Izyaslav Mstislavich, having learned that in his absence, the people of Kiev had killed Igor Olegovich, he grieved and lamented a lot about this.
            And the Russian historical tradition unambiguously considered fratricides to be great sinners. An exception was made for Vladimir only because he adopted Christianity and actively spread it in Russia, that is, he destroyed one life (of his brother), but led to the faith of Christ many souls of pagans
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 November 2020 16: 41 New
              +5
              Sergei stop thinking in cliches!
              What is the law?
              Will Vladimir Monomakh's will be law?
              First by interfering with the Roman-Germanic legal system, you are missing the Anglo-Saxon (precedent) one. And there are other subtleties such as "nomokanons".
              Taking into account the theological basis of the Ottoman legal custom based on the shriat, the “strangulation” norm is not even a recommendation, but a piece of advice that has no recommendatory character!
              At the level when the Prophet Muhammad cut off the floor of the robe so as not to wake up his beloved cat.
              Well, and about, to kill over the body of his brother. Hmm, history is written by the winners, in our case with Christian traditions. So in the PVL they laid down what the Prince wanted and the church did.
              Well, somewhere, so!
              1. Sergey Oreshin
                Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 16: 46 New
                +3
                I agree with you that the winners write history, but they write in accordance with the moral norms that are accepted in society.
                After all, it never occurred to Turkish chroniclers to write that the sultans repented and shed tears when they learned about the death of their brothers.
                And for ours - this is the norm, and Svyatopolk was called the Cursed because, having killed the brothers in cold blood, he did not show even a shadow of repentance.
                1. VLR
                  9 November 2020 18: 15 New
                  +4
                  Well, why, "did not shed tears." For example, they write that Mehmed III "pulled out his beard from grief" when one of the younger brothers asked him for mercy, but "did not answer him a word." And his brother was strangled in front of him. When I read about this, I had the impression that the author sympathized with Mehmed, who "made a sacrifice in the name of the peace of the empire," and not with the murdered man, who dared to upset the Sultan with his prayers.
                  1. Marine engineer
                    Marine engineer 9 November 2020 21: 47 New
                    +2
                    "... And the brother was strangled in front of him."

                    Supervised the performers? The Sultan's share is hard, you cannot be sure of anyone.
                    1. VLR
                      10 November 2020 08: 38 New
                      +1
                      "Am I a beast? The beast would marry you off to the fool of Mardan and laugh, and I cry with you" (c.f. "Don't be afraid, I'm with you")
    3. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 9 November 2020 12: 31 New
      +9
      You are bloodthirsty, Mikhail, especially on Mondays. But no more than Sheckley. laughing
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 9 November 2020 12: 59 New
        +9
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        You are bloodthirsty, Mikhail, especially on Mondays.

        Oh, come on ... As if I'm the only one ...
        I would also suggest something else. To arrange voting for elective positions not only before appointment, but also after. The term of office has ended - the deputy or whoever passes there mandatory the second voting procedure with the only question: "what to do with it now?"
        Answer options are strictly limited and cannot be changed:
        - to let go in peace and to be allowed to run again.
        - flog with rods and let it go to hell, but it no longer appears on the eyes
        - imprisonment for five years with confiscation of all property, including the property of all close relatives
        - to jail for ten years with confiscation of all property, including the property of all close relatives, with a fine in the amount of half of the said property.
        - jail twenty years with confiscation of all property, including the property of all close relatives, with the imposition of a fine in the amount of the full value of the said property.
        - to shoot with confiscation of all property, including the property of all close relatives, with the imposition of a fine in the amount of the full value of the said property.
        - to hang on the central square of the administrative center together with adult close relatives, with the confiscation of all property, including the property of all close relatives, with the imposition of a fine in the amount of the specified property.
        When choosing the next chosen one, the people must first determine the fate of the previous one without any judicial red tape.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 9 November 2020 13: 04 New
          +7
          Hmmm ... A similar clause in the Criminal Code and the Code of Administrative Offenses implies that any elected office in power is initially criminal.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 9 November 2020 14: 06 New
            +7
            Presumption of guilt.
            Those who have been or have ever been in power, if they do not bend their souls, will confirm that it is unrealistic to try power and remain sinless before the law. Accordingly, the presumption of guilt is a justified tool for them.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 9 November 2020 14: 13 New
              +8
              So Sheckley was right? Nose ring, with a couple grams of plastid and a directional fuse, powered by a weekly sms poll.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 9 November 2020 14: 40 New
                +5
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                Was Sheckley right?

                Are you referring to Robert Sheckley? Something from his work I came across in my youth, but about the nose ring - definitely not. Science fiction is not my genre at all, although I love the Strugatskys. smile
                The weekly poll is too frequent. Voting should take place based on the results of activities, which can be judged no earlier than in a year or two.
                The authorities should be in a hurry to do good to people, but not in a hurry. smile
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 9 November 2020 14: 46 New
                  +5
                  He is the story "Mind Exchange"
                2. kalibr
                  kalibr 9 November 2020 15: 38 New
                  +4
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  but about the nose ring - definitely not.

                  Ticket to Tranai. There is not a ring, but an amulet around the neck, exploding from a special room, where officials reproach them.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 9 November 2020 17: 31 New
                    +3
                    Yes, that's right. I always confuse two names.
          2. Catfish
            Catfish 9 November 2020 14: 14 New
            +5
            What is elective, what is not elective - here they cannot do otherwise.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 9 November 2020 14: 20 New
              +5
              You, Uncle Kostya, what do you mean by the word "here", a specific society or the planet as a whole?
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 9 November 2020 14: 30 New
                +6
                I have lived all my life in this "society", I have not been outside the cordon at all, so everything is exclusively on my own experience. Yes, and on the planet to me, in general, well, you understand ... smile
                Look there below the comments of a certain "Sergey Oreshin (Sergey) Today, 14:22", I don't even know what to answer him. request
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 9 November 2020 14: 36 New
                  +5
                  I saw it, I oppose it.
        2. Catfish
          Catfish 9 November 2020 14: 11 New
          +8
          - to hang on the central square of the administrative center together with adult close relatives, with the confiscation of all property, including the property of all close relatives, with the imposition of a fine in the amount of the specified property.

          In our God-saved, only one option is possible, and this one.
          I vote - for!
        3. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 9 November 2020 15: 12 New
          +4
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          When choosing the next chosen one, the people must first determine the fate of the previous one without any judicial red tape.

          According to the "World History processed by Satyricon" in Greece, such a figure went on a journey, fearing too warm gratitude from the expansive people. laughing
    4. Engineer
      Engineer 9 November 2020 12: 50 New
      +9
      Olgerd with Keistut looking at the author of the post with bewilderment
      Diocletian babbles something about tetrarchy
      A funny interpretation of a practice that actually encouraged civil wars and unrest
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 9 November 2020 12: 56 New
        +7
        The Gedeminovichs did not have much choice. But their children "turned around" with might and main!
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 9 November 2020 13: 04 New
          +8
          How was it not?
          Rest on your horn and try to get rid of your brother at any cost.
          In general, this is called a compromise between the elites.
          It took a long time to be introduced with a creak, but in the long term it bore fruit.
          But the Turkish practice left no room for compromises.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 9 November 2020 13: 11 New
            +7
            At the time of the reign, it was not. And both were well aware of this. Had there been a strife in Lithuania at that time, either the Russians would crush it, or the Germans.
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 9 November 2020 14: 26 New
        +7
        Quote: Engineer
        Olgerd with Keistut

        If only one remained after the struggle for the Gediminas' inheritance, there would be fewer fights in the third generation. The siblings in the august families can still get along somehow, the cousins ​​practically cannot.
        In general, the main idea of ​​my message was that the fight for power must necessarily be cruel and bloody, with maximum casualties among its direct participants and minimum among the taxable population. The fewer candidates for power, the stronger this power. When the total massacre in the ruling house (or party) concerns only members of this house and their entourage, it is simply ideal. Several dozen killed, strangled and poisoned in time, a small skirmish 100x100 under the walls of the capital, after which the winners chop off the heads of the defeated - all legally, mind you! - and in the country again prosperity and tranquility.
        This principle, with minor changes, seems to be quite relevant in our time. You just need to raise the stakes to the maximum in the struggle for power. Then there will be fewer people willing to participate and natural selection will be faster and more efficient. smile
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 9 November 2020 16: 40 New
          +7
          The message is completely transparent.
          But with such stakes in power, we get a scumbag who decided that he grabbed God by the beard. And no checks and balances.
          Government management is administration, troops and finance.
          And not intrigue, bribery and strangulation with a lace.
          Keistut and Olgierd gave their subjects the most glorious reign in a very difficult time. Narimunta and Euntius were shortened, but no one strangled them.
          cousins ​​almost nothing.

          Lots of exceptions. Vitovt and Andrey and Dmitry Olgerdovich immediately came to mind.
          It all depends on the people.

          This is not to mention the fact that the message itself is vicious from the very beginning. Aha, the princes will decide their affairs exclusively by murders in the palace.
          It would never occur to anyone not to come to the palace alone or with a scanty retinue, where his brother, due to geography, will be the first to arrive. After all, no one would guess to grab a medium-sized army. No army - drop by the Iranian shah, enlist support.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 9 November 2020 17: 46 New
            +4
            Quote: Engineer
            The message is completely transparent.

            I didn't doubt you. smile
            Quote: Engineer
            Government management is administration, troops and finance.

            This is, first of all, the skillful delegation of powers, which includes the assignment of tasks to subordinates, if we are talking about a state at least somewhat large. This delegation, of course, must be accompanied by control and a monopoly on violence. The rest of the administration, troops, finance are the details that the subordinates should deal with.
            Keistut and Olgerd, although it was not so simple for them and their descendants, are more the exception than a typical example. History is much more replete with examples opposite to what we see in Lithuania. The history of Russia consists of such examples, almost all of them - in every generation. And there are few examples like Keistut and Olgerd - Izyaslav and Rostislav Mstislavichi, Yuri and Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, Daniil and Vasilko Romanovich ... To some extent Dmitry Donskoy and Vladimir the Brave, but the latter had no right to a great reign, so this is already stretch ... Well, maybe Yuri and Ivan Danilovich ...
            Well, I think you have no doubts that in any scheme for transferring power you can find a bunch of holes and come up with confusion out of nothing. It all depends on the specific characters - the participants in the events. But the scheme, when the transfer of power is carried out through intrigue, a covert struggle with a fatal outcome for most of the participants, I personally like more than direct unconditional inheritance or general elections. So, on the one hand, some kind of selection and, accordingly, competition is provided, and on the other hand, this selection is carried out not by the general mass of the people, inclined to exaltation and a desire to be deceived, but by a cynical and therefore, in most cases, an adequate minority. Although such a scheme did not save the USSR. Maybe they were choking a little?
            Better a little turmoil at the beginning of the rule than a long reign of someone like Nicholas II (option with unconditional inheritance) or Boris Yeltsin (option with universal suffrage). Something like this.
            So cut all those striving for power,
            Cut, to hell, without waiting for peritonitis!

            But leave one. For divorce.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 9 November 2020 18: 32 New
              +4
              But the scheme, when the transfer of power is carried out by means of intrigue, a covert struggle with a fatal outcome for most of the participants, I personally like more than direct unconditional inheritance or general elections. So, on the one hand, some kind of selection is provided and, accordingly, competition, and on the other, this selection is carried out not by the general mass of the people, inclined to exaltation and the desire to be deceived, but by a cynical and therefore, in most cases, an adequate minority.

              The last time we have chosen this "cynical adequate minority." They say there was both selection and competition. And even without blood, in a civilized manner.
              Well, are you satisfied?
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 9 November 2020 19: 46 New
                +3
                Quote: Engineer
                Last time

                Which one? If you mean 2000, then I'm happy.
                In general, I don't really want to touch on specific examples from our time. In thirty years we will discuss them too, but there is still too little information. smile
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 9 November 2020 19: 55 New
                  +2
                  OK then no questions
            2. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 9 November 2020 22: 15 New
              +3
              Mikhail, you have listed many names, but I know: Keistut and Olgerd, Dmitry Donskoy and Vladimir the Brave, and more, what are others known about? I dont know
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 10 November 2020 10: 46 New
                +2
                Izyaslav and Rostislav Mstislavich - children of Mstislav the Great, grandchildren of Monomakh. In all the strife of 1132 - 1154, in particular, in the fight against Yuri Dolgoruky (his own uncle) and the Chernigov princes, they always acted as a united front, supporting each other until Izyaslav's death on the Kiev table. Given the constantly changing alignments of the princely coalitions, such a constancy of the two brothers stands out from the rest.
                Yuri and Yaroslav Vsevolodovich are the children of Vsevolod the Big Nest. 1212 to 1238 always acted as a united front both in strife and in external wars until the death of Yuri during the invasion. Yaroslav Vsevolodovich is the father of Alexander Nevsky.
                Daniil and Vasilko Romanovich are the sons of Roman Mstislavich Volynsky, Daniel is known as Daniil Galitsky. Their father died in 1205, when the eldest Daniel was no more than five years old, Vasilko was a couple of years younger. Daniel died in 1264. During this time, the brothers never opposed each other and there is not even a single information about conflicts or disagreements in their tandem.
                Yuri and Ivan Danilovich are children of the Moscow prince Daniel Alexandrovich, grandchildren of Alexander Nevsky. After the death of Daniel in 1303 and until the death of Yuri in 1325, Yuri and Ivan (Ivan Kalita) always stood on the same side of the barricades. But here the case is somewhat different - Ivan did not have his own destiny, while in all the other cases named, the brothers-princes possessed their own lands and could conduct an independent policy.
    5. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 9 November 2020 15: 48 New
      +2
      Mikhail, it’s bad for you to read this: dark fantasies immediately appear.
      I have long suspected you as a hidden villain.
      I sympathize with the Fomenkovites in advance. You for sure
  • Operator
    Operator 9 November 2020 13: 01 New
    -3
    Quote: kalibr
    I almost gave my soul to God

    The word "God" must be written with a capital letter, otherwise it will not take a soul laughing
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 9 November 2020 13: 04 New
    +3
    Quote: Tlauicol
    O tempora! O mores! as they say in Istanbul crying

    In fairness, the Romans said so, and Rome and Istanbul are two different things
  • Catfish
    Catfish 9 November 2020 13: 07 New
    +8
    ... for which he received the nickname Yavuz - "Cruel", "Ferocious".

    I read that "Yavuz" is also translated as "Terrible". In the First World War and after it, the Turkish fleet included the battle cruiser Yavuz Sultan Selim, German-built (formerly Geben).
    The memory of this sultan was still alive.

    Valery, as always, many thanks! smile
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 9 November 2020 13: 14 New
    +4
    "executioners with a silk cord," and an ordinary rope would be an insult to a prince?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 9 November 2020 13: 55 New
      +7
      No, it's just that silk glides on the skin more easily.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 9 November 2020 14: 13 New
        +5
        Practical people, huh? laughing
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 9 November 2020 14: 16 New
          +5
          Sure! Especially if the process has been worked out and put on stream.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 9 November 2020 14: 18 New
            +5
            Well, the flow there is a natural thing, in the East, but in the presence of such a harem, how can it not be, flow. The main thing is that there are enough laces ... laughing
      2. iskanderzp
        iskanderzp 9 November 2020 21: 40 New
        +2
        There, it seems, it also mattered on what dish they brought the lace to the condemned to death. The last respect was expressed in gold, while other, less "honorable" options were silver and wood.
      3. ee2100
        ee2100 9 November 2020 23: 41 New
        +1
        What about soap?
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 9 November 2020 23: 46 New
          +2
          About soap, below.
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 9 November 2020 23: 49 New
            +1
            Carried away! Yes, below. Strangely, or vice versa, it is natural, the article is about the Ottomans, but discussing Russia!
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 9 November 2020 23: 53 New
              +3
              It is strange that you are strange! You are not the first day on the forum. And we are familiar with our company.
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 November 2020 15: 18 New
      +5
      Quote: Astra wild2
      "executioners with a silk cord," and an ordinary rope would be an insult to a prince?

      We saved on soap! love
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 9 November 2020 15: 29 New
        +5
        Soap, it also costs money. laughing
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 9 November 2020 17: 03 New
          +4
          Exactly! And the lace is reusable.
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 9 November 2020 22: 00 New
            +3
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Exactly! And the lace is reusable.

            Humane people! laughing
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 9 November 2020 13: 36 New
    +7
    Valery, thank you for the interesting material. I read it on the way, reread it with the girls. This is the third material that I reread with the girls.
    We were interested in the following moment: "Jem understood, in the near future the executioners with a silk cord will appear to him," after all, Jem had a personal guard, loyal eunuchs, and finally servants. And it could be like this: the guards at the gate, say :. go to the forest, all sorts of vagabonds will bother the prince
    1. VLR
      9 November 2020 14: 23 New
      +8
      So these are the people of the already legitimate sultan, who passed the Djulyus enthronement ceremony, took the oath of the officials and the army, how can one not obey them? Then they themselves will be dragged to the block. This is, firstly. And secondly, not only the guards and eunuchs, but also the sanjak army at the disposal of the unfortunate shehzadeh. But its commanders are also sober people and assess the situation. If they think she is hopeless, they won't lift a finger. If there is a chance and the Sultan's son is a smart guy, popular among the troops and the people and promises a lot, a war begins, in which, however, those who are in Constantinople have more resources.
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 9 November 2020 21: 33 New
        +2
        Valery, thanks for the answer
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 14: 27 New
    +4
    I wonder if those commentators who admire this law are capable of killing their brothers in real life in order to take possession of the inheritance?
    In general, of course, the level of decline in our society is visible.
    110 years ago fratricide (with the aim of taking possession of material wealth, power) in Russia was interpreted unambiguously - as one of the most serious sins, leading straight to hell and destroying the soul forever.
    To admire fratricides, to justify fratricides, not a single Russian Orthodox person would even dream of it.
    What happened to us? We understand ourselves, into which pit we are flying ???
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 9 November 2020 14: 41 New
      +6
      Sergey, how is your sense of humor?
      1. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 14: 55 New
        +5
        The commentators were writing all these comments so seriously that I really got scared.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 9 November 2020 15: 28 New
          +4
          Come on, there are no obscurantists, occasionally there are only "Tartarian arias".
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 November 2020 15: 28 New
      +5
      Sergei has a saying among the people - "whoever hurts about something, he talks about it!"
      Above, I gave you a detailed answer.
      To put an end to the discussion, I answer in advance. I have no siblings. The only cousin died 7 years ago. I am sincerely sorry, but from the prison and the bag.
      So stop putting labels on the guys, especially in the historical aspect. By the way, every 5 homicide or attempted murder in the post-Soviet space is associated with inheritance. And this is not a wild Middle Ages and barbarism!
      hi
    3. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 9 November 2020 15: 59 New
      +7
      Quote: Sergey Oreshin
      110 years ago fratricide (with the aim of taking possession of material wealth, power) in Russia was interpreted unambiguously - as one of the most serious sins, leading straight to hell and destroying the soul forever.

      I have an article on this site about ways of settling political scores with the Rurik. One principle is formulated there, which, in fact, the princes were guided by when making decisions on punishing someone. Translated into modern Russian, it sounds like this: if the prince is to blame, then the punishment for him is deprivation of possessions, if ordinary people, then the deprivation of the head.
      I didn’t begin to reply to you on your first comment, I thought that you would understand yourself why you wrote nonsense. But if you don't understand, I explain.
      From ancient times to this day, people who have reached the heights of power in one way or another, including by birthright, consider themselves and, of course, are different in their status from the rest. Power is sacred and incomprehensible to ordinary people, this is how it should be, this is how it is. The usual moral and ethical norms that are familiar to us are not applicable to its carriers. Honesty, justice, generosity, generosity and other qualities necessary for society as a whole, for those in power - an impermissible luxury, since, as a rule, they are very expensive for the subordinate people. The ruler must be smart, cunning, vile, unprincipled and cruel - only then his people live well, well-fed and calm.
      You are talking about family, eternal values ​​and I agree with you - they are needed. You can’t kill at all, let alone kill relatives, although it’s not clear how for me, for example, someone’s brother, son or daughter differs from other people whom I also don’t know and why their death at the hands of a relative should horrify me more than by the hand of any other person. Still terrifying. Probably because it is common for a person to try on any situation. But if some sultan had not killed his own brother in time, he could have challenged his power, raised an uprising, and then thousands of people who had nothing to do with this disassembly would have perished. What do you think is better?
      Quote: Sergey Oreshin
      commentators who admire this law are capable of killing their brothers in real life in order to take possession of the inheritance?

      I will formulate the question differently: would you prefer not to kill your brother for the sake of your own moral principles and, thereby, destroy thousands of innocent people?
      There are those in power and everyone else. These categories of people have different morals and what is good for some is completely unacceptable for others. An attempt to transfer the morality of some to others, an attempt to force some to correspond to the morality of others (in any direction) is a grave crime against both.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 9 November 2020 15: 11 New
    +4
    About Selim 1m and his brothers: Ahmed and Korkut, I read the novel by Bertris Smot "Harem" the book is exciting. That is why I read Valery's work so carefully.
    In the novel, Selim is shown positively, but in reality he is not the most attractive person, to put it mildly.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 9 November 2020 15: 46 New
    +5
    The Turks only adopted Byzantine traditions, and even simple-mindedly clothed them in writing.
    How many applicants in the Byzantine Empire murdered, napredaval and dazzled each other, plus, along the way with them, wives and children - so the Turks will still have a "kindergarten - pants with straps."
    But since they were very civilized, then of course they could not afford anything like that in writing, even though everyone, to the last slave in the empire, understood everything by default.
    But the European tradition is somewhat different: "Everything for our own, and the Law for our enemies!", Which, in general, is still true today.
    And before Ivanovs 3rd and 4th we are more Byzantines, and then - Europeans.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 9 November 2020 16: 41 New
    +5
    "Extra" princes, of course, were killed "without shedding blood" - strangled with a silk cord.
    There is one more point.
    As far as I remember, in the Islamic tradition, the soul of a person who is killed in this way (hanging or strangling) cannot go to heaven, because it emanates from the body through the throat. Thus, murder also becomes a mockery of the soul. What, in fact, the Americans did over Hussein.
    1. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 9 November 2020 21: 50 New
      +2
      In all fairness, Saddam Husin was hanged not by the Americans, but by their own Iraqis.
      However,. there are their own meaner and more terrible than others.
      An example from my life: my "friends" pushed me under a tram, and an unknown Ukrainian girl saved me.
      Therefore, I distinguish between ordinary Ukrainians from different: Poroshenkov, Yushenkov and others. Piggy
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 16: 41 New
    +6
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    By the way, every 5 homicide or attempted murder in the post-Soviet space is associated with inheritance.

    And it's just awful ...
    To ruin other people's lives and your soul for momentary, short-term benefits ...
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 16: 57 New
    +2
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    and, of course, are different in their status from the rest. Power is sacred and incomprehensible to ordinary people, this is how it should be, this is how it is. The usual moral and ethical norms that are familiar to us are not applicable to its carriers.

    This is an absolutely diabolical principle that goes against the norms of the Bible, the Koran and other religions.
    Not a single sacred book says that the rulers are some kind of superhuman, supposedly having the right to do whatever they want, justifying themselves by the "common good."
    On the contrary, the Bible repeatedly emphasizes that kings and rulers must faithfully observe all the commandments of the Lord and be an example for their subjects.
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    why their death at the hands of a relative should terrify me more than at the hands of any other person.

    Because the family is the unit of society. And when members of one family begin to cold-bloodedly and deliberately kill their relatives - this society is very painful.
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    What do you think is better?

    To properly raise sons from early childhood, so that they see each other as best friends and always help each other in everything.
    In general, Dostoevsky correctly said that the tear of one child is not worth the well-being of the world. You cannot kill several innocent people on the pretext that their deaths will allegedly save the lives of hundreds of thousands. This is a deeply erroneous, devilish thought, leading straight to the death of the soul.
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    would you prefer not to kill your brother for the sake of your own moral principles and, thereby, destroy thousands of innocent people?

    Saint Boris gave the answer to this question over 1000 years ago. Svyatopolk did not understand this, and ruined his soul. My soul is dearer to me.
    1. Operator
      Operator 9 November 2020 19: 56 New
      -2
      The main thing is the class difference in social morality. For the base class - the producer of material goods (the overwhelming part of medieval society), each family member is the opportunity to produce more material goods. For the upper class (the overwhelming minority of medieval society), each family member is a competitor in the process of redistributing material wealth.

      The emergence of a middle class in an industrial society removes this contradiction - most people don't give a damn about the fate of their relatives laughing
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 9 November 2020 20: 02 New
      +4
      Svyatopolk did not understand this, and ruined his soul
      Some researchers doubt Svyatopolk's involvement in the murder of the brothers.
      1. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 20: 30 New
        +3
        Yes it is. Some even blame Yaroslav.
        But here the point is different. In how the chronicler interprets this event. And he interprets it in accordance with the historical and cultural paradigm in which Russia lived.
        The man killed his brothers and did not repent, which means that he became like Cain, became Cursed and died without communion, excommunicated from God and the Motherland.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 9 November 2020 20: 38 New
          +4
          Sergey, I can tell you that you are a worthy interlocutor and opponent! However, you are looking at historical processes from one point of view. This is neither good nor bad, just blinkered. Sorry to be frank.
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 9 November 2020 20: 57 New
            +5
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            This is neither good nor bad, just blinkered.

            No Anton. Prosto dear Sergei looks at all these events from the point of view of normal human morality. What it should ideally be. But in reality, it’s far from so. And if we talk about power, then .... where is morality? and where is the power? Idealism, but understandable not in an offensive sense. Alas and ah! Unfortunately, everything is different in life. hi
            And on my own I would add: I read your discussion with pleasure! Bravo opponents! hi
            I take off my cap in front of you!
        2. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 9 November 2020 22: 34 New
          +2
          Quote: Sergey Oreshin
          Yes it is. Some even blame Yaroslav.
          But here the point is different. In how the chronicler interprets this event. And he interprets it in accordance with the historical and cultural paradigm in which Russia lived.
          The man killed his brothers and did not repent, which means that he became like Cain, became Cursed and died without communion, excommunicated from God and the Motherland.

          I apologize for getting into your discussion, but the murder of brothers in pre-Christian Russia may well be viewed in the spirit of primitive ideas about claims to power, which were often not inherited, but went to the winner in single combat. Frazer gives many such examples in the Golden Bough. And in fact we can all observe this: Oleg kills Askold and Dir, Yaropolk of his brother Oleg, Vladimir kills Yaropolk, Mal kills Igor and claims power (it did not work out), Rurik kills Vadim (if such existed), Mstislav kills Rededya, and so on ... And brotherly bonds in this still primitive tradition do not play any role, as they say - nothing personal. For the chronicler, who already possessed a Christian worldview, who transmitted these events much later, this is already some kind of savagery, which he accordingly reflects.
          And about Svyatopolk - yes, there is such a version, somewhere I even have a book about this, I have read it for a long time. This version is based on evidence of one of the sagas.
    3. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 9 November 2020 21: 59 New
      +2
      Oreshkin, although there is a big difference between should and reality, but I put ++
      One for the fact that we truly forget God's commandments. Second, although I am valuable and a little bit of a libertine, I AM AGAINST Rude Tsarism
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 9 November 2020 22: 06 New
        +3
        Quote: Astra wild2
        valuable and a little bit of a libertine, but I AM AGAINST RUDE CZARISM

        What kind of TSARISM ?????
        laughing laughing laughing
        1. The comment was deleted.
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 16: 58 New
    +1
    Quote: faterdom
    How many in the Byzantine Empire killed, attacked and blinded each other

    In the overwhelming majority of cases, they were strangers to each other.
    Cases when siblings killed each other in cold blood were nonsense for Byzantium and were condemned by the historical and cultural tradition.
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 17: 02 New
    +3
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Of course, from the point of view of liberal ideology

    I do not understand, where does liberalism have to do with it?
    Fratricide is prohibited by ALL world religions + pagan beliefs.
    So from the point of view of Christian / Muslim / Buddhist ideology, killing siblings in order to seize earthly power is a grave sin
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 9 November 2020 20: 30 New
      +4
      Quote: Sergey Oreshin
      I do not understand, where does liberalism have to do with it?

      Liberalism proclaims several fundamental inalienable rights of every person, including the right to life.
      And as for the content of the rest of your comments - sorry, I did not understand that I am dealing with a person for whom religious dogmas are an argument.
      I myself am absolutely not religious and I am not impressed by arguments based on the Bible or other religious writings by or for believers. I try to respectfully treat representatives of any religious denomination, but only as long as they do not begin to impose their views on others and on me in particular. For sermons, you can (and should!) Look for and find other places, it is not difficult, as a rule, they are marked with specific symbols, familiar to every bearer of a particular religious culture.
      For me personally, there is no sin, no retribution, no God, no devil, and the arguments associated with these concepts have zero value for me.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 9 November 2020 17: 28 New
    +4
    Quote: Astra wild2
    could be like this: the guards at the gate, say :. go to the forest, all sorts of vagabonds will bother the prince

    Your words, yes to Serdyukov's ears! When the FSB and the Prosecutor General's Office came to him, they tried to summon the GRU special forces to their defense.
    Didn't come. Or they arrived, but did not "defend" the breadwinner. And he didn't even understand why ...
    And why? Yes, because the brain in him is much less than that of a medieval Ottoman prince.
    1. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 9 November 2020 22: 06 New
      +2
      Unfortunately UM ITEM IS PERSONAL
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 17: 36 New
    +2
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Several dozen killed, strangled and poisoned in time, a small skirmish 100x100 under the walls of the capital, after which the winners chop off the heads of the defeated - all legally, mind you! - and in the country again prosperity and tranquility.

    Do you seriously think so?
    The ruler who arranged such a massacre sinned, and the ruler's sin falls on his subjects, who allowed the fratricide to come to power.
    They will have neither prosperity nor tranquility. Natural disasters, epidemics, invasions of enemies - the Lord has many opportunities to punish such rulers and such people.
    Ultimately, such an empire perishes.
    And we, it would seem, should learn a lesson, but ... many learn it in a completely opposite way.
    1. depressant
      depressant 9 November 2020 20: 43 New
      +4
      It's strange. And I thought that the task of God is to give man free will and nothing more. Well, maybe sometimes to respond to a very hot request for help. But in general, live, man, as you know, we will meet at the Last Judgment, and that's where we'll talk about how you used your free will during your life process.
      Therefore, no terrible punishment by God on a person is sent during his lifetime. Well, there are floods, earthquakes, a knife in the heart, stuff. All this is not sent by God, but sent to a person during his lifetime by the Devil for his sins. For the Devil thus understands gratitude for sin, which in his mind is good. And he, as an obligatory and grateful entity with a person, will pay off necessarily for what he, the Devil, has done as an offering in the form of sin. The Devil considers man's sin as a gift to him, the Devil.
      And so it turns out: you have sinned, consider it, summoned the Devil, and now he is spinning beside him, waiting for the opportunity to "thank" the sinner, to give himself up.
      That is why they say: the good done by a person will be reckoned in the next world, the evil done on this one. Have you forgotten, colleague, that God is somewhere inconceivably far away, in common parlance - in heaven, and the Devil is an inhabitant of the Earth?
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 9 November 2020 21: 46 New
        +5
        In general, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, you have most of the symptoms of albigoism. Ardent greetings from Simon de Montfort! laughing
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 9 November 2020 21: 57 New
          +4
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          most symptoms of albigoism


          Think about it! Lyudmila Yakovlevna, think about it! laughing
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 9 November 2020 22: 01 New
            +4
            "about a million people died"
            Breshut! One thousand five hundred, at most.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 10 November 2020 16: 29 New
              +2
              Breshut! One thousand five hundred, at most.

              So on the one hand you counted it! (according to the greedy bear method). laughing And right there it is written in purple on green - on both! tongue drinks so add up the Orthodox and the Albigens. wassat
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 11 November 2020 09: 50 New
                +2
                Do not list by name yet - we will doubt.
        2. depressant
          depressant 9 November 2020 22: 00 New
          +4
          Anton !!! I considered you polite and well-mannered, and you used unprintable vocabulary against me crying wassat
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 9 November 2020 22: 06 New
            +4
            Evil tongues, misstris, greatly exaggerate my courtesy! Alas!
            1. depressant
              depressant 9 November 2020 22: 11 New
              +3
              But it is strong to dodge, asp! Albigensian, hehe! So I said obscenity ... how to grit, with whom you will lead)))
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 9 November 2020 22: 16 New
                +4
                It's not scary to be an Albigue, it's a shame to be an Albigue.
                1. depressant
                  depressant 9 November 2020 22: 19 New
                  +3
                  What a horror ... What will Princess Marya Aleksevna say?!?
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 9 November 2020 22: 32 New
                    +2
                    What does she care how I believe? The main thing is not to catch with Malusha the housekeeper!
                    1. depressant
                      depressant 9 November 2020 22: 34 New
                      +3
                      Who can you catch with, huh?
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 9 November 2020 22: 42 New
                        +4
                        Ideally, with no one!
                        "Our main task with her,
                        Not caught to be in place
                        Turnouts, passwords, other people's dachas ...
                        And you have to be at home at ten "(C)
            2. Korsar4
              Korsar4 11 November 2020 09: 51 New
              +1
              “I have no courtesy at all” (almost (c)).

              / Attributed to little-known trouvers /
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 18: 44 New
    +2
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    when the transfer of power is carried out by intrigue, a covert struggle with a fatal outcome for the majority of participants

    This is called "fist law" and the right of the strong (arrogant, cruel, unprincipled). When one primitive leader breaks the skulls of all other contenders with his club, and then crushes the heads of all who try to encroach on his power. Until there is a young, daring, cunning and arrogant male who will break his head.
    This is called a flock, not even an animal one, but some kind of devilish one. Which will inevitably come to collapse, well, or change the whole paradigm of its existence
    Personally, I don't want to live in such a world
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 9 November 2020 20: 30 New
      +3
      Personally, I don't want to live in such a world
      So do I.
      "By and large, life is shit. I never liked it on this planet!" (FROM)
      But we don't have another ...
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 9 November 2020 20: 40 New
        +3
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        But we don't have another ...

        And it won't, at least for the current generation of the planet's inhabitants. request
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 9 November 2020 21: 08 New
          +3
          You know, Sergei, I'm here, by chance, communicating with a future rocket engineer (he works as an assistant with me) ... So, we agreed that human manned astronautics, at this stage of scientific and technological revolution, is unpromising.
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 9 November 2020 21: 16 New
            +3
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            hopeless.

            Anton, do you like science fiction? Do you have any prerequisites now for flights to the stars? For colonization, conventionally, the Moon, Mars? No, they are not. Yes, and I think this is not a question for the near future. And not for the next generations. the sixties and seventies were more optimistic.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 9 November 2020 21: 24 New
              +3
              To the stars - definitely not.
          2. VLR
            9 November 2020 21: 43 New
            +3
            For humanity in general, never, at any level of scientific and technological revolution, there will be no more suitable planet than the Earth. The harshest places on Earth, such as the tundra or the Sahara, are incomparably more favorable for life than a completely unfamiliar and unusual other planet, on which there will be a different composition of the atmosphere (if, of course, it is breathable), a different gravity, and so on.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 9 November 2020 21: 54 New
              +3
              For humanity - absolutely true! And it's not even about the parameters of another planet. Simply, in order for the earthly mind (!) To go beyond the radiological belt, it is necessary to exclude the biological component.
      2. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 20: 42 New
        +1
        So what is the conclusion? We need to improve the planet.
        This is what I tell my sons, I will say: "So, brothers, this is how I die - you can start a fight for the inheritance, and the strongest / dexterous / arrogant, killing the rest, will be able to take everything for himself."
        The stump is clear that no! They must be brought up from childhood in brotherly love, so that they love each other and are ready to give their lives for their brothers, to share everything with each other.
        Whether it will succeed or not is another question, but at least I will make an effort.
        And, starting small - and great is worth thinking about
    2. Phil77
      Phil77 9 November 2020 21: 27 New
      +4
      Quote: Sergey Oreshin
      This is called "fist law" and the right of the strong (arrogant, cruel, unprincipled).

      Unfortunately, this is called a struggle for power, and this was not invented today, and not yesterday.
      1. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 21: 49 New
        +1
        Yes, but then people realized that this struggle should be introduced at least in some direction.
        And therefore - the election of the ruler at a meeting of the tribe / council of elders / inheritance to the eldest son / republic, etc. Which, in fact, allows you to achieve at least some kind of continuity and stability
  • faterdom
    faterdom 9 November 2020 20: 31 New
    +3
    Quote: Sergey Oreshin
    When one primitive leader breaks the skulls of all other contenders with his club, and then smashes the heads of all who try to encroach on his power. Until there is a young, impudent, insidious and arrogant male who will break his head.

    As another leader of a little-known tribe.
    "So you did with my cup!" - He accompanied the splitting of his warrior's head into two halves with a battle ax.
    With such a leader, the tribe naturally rose, he himself became the founder of the Merovingian dynasty.
    Clovis's name was.
    That is, Louis, in the later transcriptions of the royal names.
    But then, by direct inheritance, these weakened and degraded, and the power was taken by the majordomo (like a prime minister or something), Karl Martell, his son Pepin the Short with his brother Carloman, and then a certain Karl, pushing back his brother (also Carloman), saved, multiplied, fastened in As an ideological justification, the Pope (having composed with the latter the "Letter of Constantine" beneficial to both), conquered the pagan Saxons, saddled the Bavarians and, in general, entered History as Charlemagne - the first Emperor of the West, recognized by Byzantium.
    1. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 20: 50 New
      +2
      You are right, but how did it end?
      Clovis Merovingian slaughtered a bunch of his kinsmen to clear the path to power for his offspring.
      And only 250 years after his death (for history - a short period), the last Merovingian was tonsured a monk. And this dynasty lost the power gained by cruelty and blood.
      And how long did the Carolingian empire, created by iron and blood, last? It collapsed already under Karl's grandchildren. And by the end of the 10th century. The Carolingians everywhere degenerated and lost power.
      But (I will repeat it again!) Both Clovis and Karl, perpetrating their atrocities, were sure that they were paving the way for their descendants forever to power.
      But do not send these atrocities for future use to the descendants. They have lost this power, and they are no more
      1. VLR
        9 November 2020 21: 35 New
        +5
        And these Merovingians, by the way, some conspiracy theorists are trying to declare the descendants of Christ.
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 9 November 2020 21: 47 New
          +4
          Quote: VlR
          And these Merovingians

          Greetings Valery, thanks for the article !!! hi

          But it all started so well! laughing I mean Brown!
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 9 November 2020 23: 21 New
          +3
          There is such a topic! It is heavily exaggerated in Catalonia.
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 20: 39 New
    +1
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    For me personally, there is no sin, no retribution, no god, no devil

    I don't want to convince you of anything, this, as they say, is your life.
    The only thing I will say is that I would not want to live in a country where people will be in power for whom there is "no sin, no retribution", who "are not afraid of God and are not ashamed of people."
    However, this will no longer be a country, but, I repeat, some kind of flock ...
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 9 November 2020 21: 04 New
      +3
      Quote: Sergey Oreshin
      The only thing I will say is that I would not want to live in a country where people will be in power for whom there is "no sin, no retribution", who "are not afraid of God and are not ashamed of people."

      Dear Sergey!
      Is there a country where ideal people are in power? Who are conventionally afraid of God and human judgment? Sorry, but you idealize power, power and people in it.
      1. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 9 November 2020 21: 43 New
        +1
        Ideal, of course, is nowhere to be found.
        However, there is always a choice: to call the fratricide the Cursed or the "great and wise strategist"
        In my opinion, if the rulers begin to speak openly and even flaunt the fact that there is no "sin, no retribution" for them - this country is finished
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 10 November 2020 19: 40 New
      +2
      I accidentally found your comment, I did not mark it as an answer to mine.
      Let me explain that the concepts of "sin" and "retribution" are purely religious. For a non-religious person, they mean nothing, but this does not mean at all that such a person is devoid of morality.
      Any religion is just a conductor of a code of moral norms already formed in society, but in no way a source of these norms. So you and I live according to approximately the same moral laws and principles, tested for centuries, you just prefer to comprehend these norms through an intermediary.
      At the same time, whether you like it or not, the objective reality is that for people in power, this very code of moral norms changes somewhat. If a person is unable to accept these changed norms, he simply will not fall into power. This is the price of power, if you will - to revise your own moral principles.
      Any power, in any part of the world at any time, by its actions violates the moral principles of the society it controls. Otherwise it is impossible, impossible. Because even the most spiritualized person with the highest ideals and intentions, the saint, who by some miracle finds himself in power, will certainly face the problem of the "tears of a child", only the problem will not stand as Dostoevsky put it with his "highest harmony", and so: which is more expensive - one tear of a child or two? three? ten? one thousand? And then you have to count cynically. And this will be the first step of this holy man towards the transformation of his morality. The beginning of the way. And at the end - the Fatih law.
      By the way, your Orthodox saints and ascetics, and not only Orthodox, understood this problem perfectly, and therefore they moved away from the world, that they tried to forgive, redeem with their lives its inevitable sins. Inevitable.
      Therefore, leave those in power. To judge them from the point of view of our morality is as criminal as it is to judge us from the point of view of their morality. To each his own. If you sincerely and honestly believe that prayer can help something, believe that there is sin and retribution, it is better to pray for them, as the saints did at all times, pray that their INEVITABLE sins do not fall on us - ordinary people.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 9 November 2020 22: 02 New
    +1
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Svyatopolk did not understand this, and ruined his soul
    Some researchers doubt Svyatopolk's involvement in the murder of the brothers.

    They stabbed themselves
    1. VLR
      9 November 2020 22: 09 New
      +4
      The fact is that Svyatopolk was thrown into prison by his father Vladimir, after his death he fled from Kiev and at the time of the murder of Boris and Gleb was in Poland - with his father-in-law, King Boleslav the Brave. It is not clear who killed Gleb, but Scandinavian sources call the name of Boris' killer - Eymund, the leader of the Varangian squad, who was in the service of Yaroslav (the Wise). Yaroslav pretended that Eymund acted without his knowledge and without permission, and solemnly buried his "beloved brother".
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 9 November 2020 22: 23 New
        +1
        In short a dark story