"It takes a lot of fuel for maneuverability": a pilot in the USA appreciated the MiG-29 fighter

The Soviet fighter MiG-29 is a highly maneuverable aircraft, but it lacks range and situational awareness.

This is the opinion of the retired US Air Force pilot Guy Razer, writes The National Interest.

While still in active service in the Air Force, Reiser, together with other American instructors, took part in the training of Polish pilots after Poland's accession to NATO. Since the Polish Air Force was armed with Soviet MiG-29 fighters, the Americans took part in their tests. As the newspaper writes, in 2001, Reiser managed to fly a Soviet fighter.

The retired American pilot compared the MiG-29 to the American F-15E. According to him, the Soviet aircraft was very maneuverable, but it lacked flight range and situational awareness. In addition, according to Reiser, the MiG-29 consumed a lot of fuel.

The aircraft was very maneuverable when needed, but it took a lot of fuel (...) it lacked general situational awareness and range

- said the ex-pilot of the US Air Force.

Earlier, The National Interest called the upgraded MiG-29 "a modern combat vehicle."

The MiG-29 (according to NATO codification: Fulcrum - fulcrum) is a Soviet (Russian) multipurpose fighter belonging to the 4th generation. It was created in the MiG Design Bureau, made its first flight on October 6, 1977. The first serial modification entered the army in 1983.

Comments

[Svetlana]

The end of the seventies, when this car was created, gasoline cost three rubles per canister. And then no one thought about saving it. There were no computers and the Internet today. Therefore, in technical aspects, that pilot is right.
He is not right that he is trying to transfer today's requirements to yesterday's technique.

[Mik13]

Quote: Svetlana

The end of the seventies, when this car was created, gasoline cost three rubles per canister. And then no one thought about saving it. There were no computers and the Internet today. Therefore, in technical aspects, that pilot is right.
He is not right that he is trying to transfer today's requirements to yesterday's technique.

Well, actually, they thought about fuel economy. It's not about how much fuel costs, but how much there is on board. The MiG-29 has a really small amount of fuel in its internal tanks. In the USSR, the MiG-29 was teased for this as a "short-range fighter". Well, we flew from the PTB.

In the modified version, the specific Migovsky air intake with air intake from above in takeoff and landing modes was removed and, due to this, the internal fuel supply was increased.

[hagen]

Quote: Mik13

increased the internal fuel supply.

".... according to General Director Mikhail Korzhuev, other specialists of MAPO" MIG ", as well as relying on proprietary information materials on the vehicle. Additional fuel is placed in two conformal tanks with a total capacity of 2020 liters (1585 kg). Thanks to this, the range of the fighter when solving air-to-air missions without PTBs, it increased by 3 times ... "According to some reports, the MiG-5 fleet available in the RF Aerospace Forces is being persistently upgraded to the level of the MiG-29 SMT. And this is a somewhat more advanced car. I think that Mr. Svetlan is right, today it would be necessary to evaluate the vehicles in service, and not what was once.

[Zoldat_A]

Quote: Hagen

I think that Mr. Svetlan is right, today it would be necessary to evaluate the vehicles in service, and not what was once.

Good technique also needs straight arms. And not those that grow from the same place where the legs come from. And in the crooked hands and AKMS Sun - they will say that he does not shoot ... We somehow did shoot. And even got to the right place ...

[hagen]

As far as I understood the article, the issues of combat training and the level of flight skills of the retired military were not discussed. What does your crooked hands have to do with it?

[Zoldat_A]

Quote: Hagen

As far as I understood the article, the issues of combat training and the level of flight skills of the retired military were not discussed. What does your crooked hands have to do with it?

Despite the fact that I "live" saw that our flyers on the MiG-29 are able to do. And the "impressions" of some NATO retiree do not carry anything informative about whether the plane is good or bad.

[seregatara1969]

Not knowing the car and not having permission to fly on it to judge the fuel consumption? We perfectly understand that a good pilot was able to take off in a car, and was able to somehow control the car, this does not mean anything

[krizis]

The limited range is visible to the naked eye simply while observing flights. It's just that they, Migi, have to be planted very quickly. It seems that they have just taken off, - already to plant everyone.

[hagen]

Quote: Zoldat_A

Despite the fact that I "live" saw that our flyers on the MiG-29 are able to do. And the "impressions" of some NATO retirement

According to the Department of Information and Mass Communications of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation dated 08.12.2019/2019/350000 hours in the Air Force, the plan for flying in the 90 academic year was completed in full, the total flight time was more than 2018 hours. This made it possible to achieve an average flight time of more than 110 hours for a pilot, and more than XNUMX hours for a young pilot who graduated in XNUMX.
US naval aviation pilots use high-quality simulators to work out up to 300 hours a year, along the way up to 300 hours do on live F-18s.
It should be borne in mind that 10 working aircraft carriers have no less than 100 pilots (in total, no less than 1000, and even a reserve of naval aviation) capable of taking off and landing on a moving deck. This is also an indicator of the level of flying skill. We hardly have more than 30 people. I would not criticize the foe so categorically. It cost us dearly once.

[svp67]

Quote: Svetlana

And then no one thought about saving it.

And did you think about the range of combat use?

Quote: Svetlana

He is not right that he is trying to transfer today's requirements to yesterday's technique.

I agree. Moreover, it would not hurt to compare that MiG with the F-16

[Technical engineer]

he compares the MiG-29, the one that is 9-12. The first modification, which was in our smaller brothers (Poland, East Germany, Iraq, etc.) and F-16Blok52, which has huge additional tanks riveted over the wing. There is a difference in flight range. And even greater maneuverability is not in favor of the American this time. Because the thrust-to-weight ratio of this F-16 is less than 0,9. In general, I compared soft with salty.

[svp67]

Quote: Technical Engineer

he compares the MiG-29, the one that is 9-12. The first modification, which was in our smaller brothers (Poland, East Germany, Iraq, etc.) and F-16Blok52, which has huge additional tanks riveted over the wing.

Strange, I apparently have "optical illusion"

The retired American pilot compared the MiG-29 to the American F-15E.

[Proxima]

Quote: Svetlana

The end of the seventies, when this car was created, gasoline cost three rubles per canister.

Since when did the MiG-29 fly on gasoline?

[Svetlana]

Since when did the MiG-29 fly on gasoline?

and where did I say this?
I don’t remember the price of diesel fuel, but the cost of kerosene in the kerosene shop, if you know what it is and what they were for, was something about 8-10 kopecks per liter.

[ancient]

Quote: Svetlana

and the cost of kerosene in the kerosene shop, if you know what it is and what they were needed for, was something about 8-10 kopecks per liter.

1.Do not confuse AIRCRAFT fuel and kerosene from the .. kerosene shop
2.In the 70s, kerosene in the shop cost 2 kopecks, and AI-76 - 6 kopecks per liter

[ancient]

Quote: Svetlana

when this car was created, gasoline cost three rubles per canister.

Yes, even a penny for a canister, because the conversation is not for the price, but for the tactical range.
And the first 9-12 were called so (the aircraft of the WB over the DPRM).

Quote: Svetlana

He is not right that he is trying to transfer today's requirements to yesterday's technique.

And he does not try to "anything" ... transfers, but specifically talks about the fighters produced in the series before 2000.
And the first fighters 9-12,9, 13-9 and 13-9C, well, UB'shka 51-33 ... were practically .. "prototypes", but the "Klimovsk" double-circuit TRDF RD-XNUMX "were distinguished" by "excellent appetite"

[smart ass]

Mig 29 eats a lot? They have not yet driven into the forest in a UAZ.

[3danimal]

Remember when the first F-15 entered the army.
C / D, and even more so / EX have received upgrades to avionics and engines. In particular, they received a "glass" cockpit and an on-board radar with AFAR, new engines (compare the specific thrust in the fighter version).
Where is all this on the MiG-29?

[Victor_B]

The retired American pilot compared the MiG-29 to the American F-15E.

And why, in fact, not with the F-16?
The rival of the F-15 was the Su-27!

[loki565]

Because F16 does not even fly to the toilet without additional tanks)))

[Victor_B]

Quote: loki565

Because F16 does not even fly to the toilet without additional tanks

... but for the Su-27 it is production, as for the F-15 it is production for the MiG-29.

[Lozovik]

Quote: Victor_B

as for F-15 production of MiG-29.

Can you explain?

[Victor_B]

It's Easy!
There are two classes of fighters - heavy for gaining air superiority (F-15, F-22, Su-27, Su-35, Su-57) and light multipurpose front-line (F-16, F-35, Mig-29, Mig -35).
And their tasks are different.

[Lozovik]

Quote: Victor_B

There are two classes of fighters - heavy for gaining air superiority

We don't have such a class. The MiG-29 is not much smaller or lighter than the F-15.

The MiG-29 is a front-line fighter designed to destroy enemy aircraft in air battles at medium and short distances, to cover troops and facilities in the rear of the front from enemy air strikes and aerial reconnaissance.
In long-range missile combat, the combat capabilities are equal to the F-15A, superior to the F-16A, and in the short-range missile combat equal to or superior to the F-15A and F-16A

[3danimal]

The MiG-29 was never equal in the DVB F-15A (maybe I would like to, but the designers had specifications and restrictions on the size and weight of equipment).
APG-63 even of the first modifications "saw" a 4th generation fighter with 100 + km in PES
In the MiG, this figure is 2 times lower. Inexpensive front-line fighter.
"Range of target detection with RCS of 3 m3000 in the PTS at an altitude of more than 50 m - 70-XNUMX km"
“Combat use of the aircraft. Methodological manual for the pilot, edition No. 2. p.88 "

[Lozovik]

Quote: 3danimal

APG-63 even of the first modifications "saw" a 4th generation fighter with 100 + km in PES

The maximum detection range of the AN / APG-63 (V) 1 radar for MiG-29 targets is 80-85 km.

Quote: 3danimal

"Range of target detection with RCS of 3 m3000 in the PTS at an altitude of more than 50 m - 70-XNUMX km"
“Combat use of the aircraft. Methodological manual for the pilot, edition No. 2. p.88 "

The target with σ = 3 m² is the MiG-21BIS, it is significantly inferior in size to the F-15.

[3danimal]

The target with σ = 3 m² is the MiG-21BIS, it is significantly inferior in size to the F-15.

EPR is determined not only by physical dimensions (F-18s is also larger than MiG-21)

The maximum detection range of the AN / APG-63 (V) 1 radar for MiG-29 targets is 80-85 km.

Where does the data come from?
In addition, the MiG EPR is more than 3 m2:

MiG-21 - 3 square meters. m
MiG-29 - 5 square meters. m
F-16C, F-18C - 1,2 sq. m

[Lozovik]

Quote: 3danimal

EPR is determined not only by physical dimensions (F-18s is also larger than MiG-21)

And, accordingly, it has a large σ.

Quote: 3danimal

Where does the data come from?

Manual for the combat use of the MiG-29 aircraft.

Quote: 3danimal

In addition, the MiG EPR is more than 3 m2:

MiG-21 - 3 square meters. m
MiG-29 - 5 square meters. m
F-16C, F-18C - 1,2 sq. m

Doubtful data, to put it mildly.

[3danimal]

Doubtful data, to put it mildly.

Ok, the F-22 is also larger than the MiG-21.
Everything lies on the surface: the best build quality, a metallized canopy, and, what is important, radial grilles in the air intakes that cover the compressor blades.

Manual for the combat use of the MiG-29 aircraft.

Which is more reliable than the manufacturer's data?
Here Poghosyan says that the EPR of the F-22 is almost the same as that of the Su-57.
Despite the s-shaped air intakes, one-piece metallized lantern, the absence of protruding rivets, etc.

[Lozovik]

Quote: 3danimal

Everything lies on the surface: the best build quality, a metallized canopy, and, what is important, radial grilles in the air intakes that cover the compressor blades.

Is this about the F / A-18C? BHA and fan are clearly visible:

Quote: 3danimal

Which is more reliable than the manufacturer's data?

The manual has been compiled based, among other things, on data from technical documentation.

Quote: 3danimal

Despite the s-shaped air intakes, one-piece metallized lantern, the absence of protruding rivets, etc.

What other riveting? These are quarter-turn locks. F-22 for comparison:

The photo shows the prototype of the T-50; the production vehicles have a special coating.

[3danimal]

Ok, compare the flight range of the MiG-35 and F-16 block 50, both with a fighter attachment.
The first has:
"Range with normal combat load: 1000 km"
(The same 2xR-27 / R-77 and 2xR-73)
The second one:
"Without conformal tanks, 3 liters in PTB, 940 × AIM-2, 120 × AIM-2, air patrol: 9 km."
Remove the ATB and the F-1000 will have the same 16 km. This despite the fact that for the 35th increased the volume of the fuel tanks.

[Lozovik]

Quote: 3danimal

Remove the ATB and the F-1000 will have the same 16 km.

An aircraft with a practical range of 1320 km without tanks and missiles? Miracles ... To calculate the tactical radius with air combat, multiply Dprakt by 0,33.

[3danimal]

This is not a practical range, but the combat radius of an air patrol.
Conformal tanks and PTBs are hung on the Sokol so that its radius is equal to that of a heavy fighter. Or when using it as a strike aircraft (which is facilitated by a large maximum ammunition load).

[Lozovik]

Quote: 3danimal

This is not a practical range, but the combat radius of an air patrol.

Study the Flight Manual (fortunately, it is freely available), calculate the kilometer costs, the consumption for launching, heating, taxiing, takeoff, climb, descent, landing, warranty margin and unworked balance, then you will immediately no longer want to write such nonsense.

[3danimal]

Calculate kilometer costs, start-up, warm-up, taxiing, take-off, climb, descent, landing, safety margin and unused balance

I took data from Vicky.
Here is from English:

Combat range: 295 nmi (339 mi, 546 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with 4x 1,000 lb (454 kg) bombs

546 km with 2200kg load (without PTB). And "2 × AIM-120, 2 × AIM-9" weigh only 500kg.

[Lozovik]

Quote: 3danimal

I took data from Vicky.

The level of knowledge is clear.

[Yrec]

The Su-15 should be compared with the F-27E, not the MiG-29. These are different types of aircraft with different missions. Another bunch in a puddle.

[SARANCHA1976]

29e Polish and our modern two big differences, both in terms of fuel and awareness. It is absolutely true that the comparison with f15 is not correct. And so .. the pilot will be up to light with a full tank, he was shot down or with a quarter.

[3danimal]

With a quarter, you exit the battle and return to base.

[SARANCHA1976]

I do not quite understand how to get out of the battle in the presence of radars and missiles, who will release you, a couple of AIMs will be thrown into the pursuit and you will eat the ground.

[3danimal]

Going down to earth
, as an option, turn on the jamming station.

[SARANCHA1976]

Maneuvers far from reality with questionable effectiveness

[TermNachTer]

Why is a light aircraft compared to a heavy one? Let's compare the "needle" with the Su - 27

[iouris]

Quote: TermNachTER

Let's compare the "needle" with the Su - 27

The Su-27 is a highly maneuverable aircraft, however it lacks situational awareness.

[TermNachTer]

Then let's compare with A - 50.

[3danimal]

Absurd. Let's compare the A-50 with the E-3

[TermNachTer]

Isn't it absurd to compare the machines of the 70s and 2000s?))) If the MiG-29 had undergone a number of upgrades, the question is, what would be better

[3danimal]

And compare cars from the 70s

You can compare the modern F-15 with the Su-35 in terms of situational awareness.
The first radar station with AFAR, which gives a number of advantages.
Armament is very important. In our air force, the main weapons are still versions of the R-27 missile. F-ki take only AIM-120 (from medium / long range).

[TermNachTer]

Situational awareness is only one aspect, and there are many of them, not to mention the preparedness of the pilots, etc.

[3danimal]

You can compare the average flight time of pilots.
Now we have to live up to close combat.
And the problem of replacing missiles remains. "They" do not use missiles with PARL seeker at all, do you understand?

[TermNachTer]

I understand, and I also like that the pilots of the MP had to urgently add salaries, because they wanted to quit. And it's not even a war

[3danimal]

I understand, and I also like that the pilots of the MP had to urgently add salaries, because they wanted to quit.

I have not found such news.
Are you trying to say that experience is not the main thing and they all scatter / scatter? By analogy, American MMA fighters ... shouldn't exist at all.
Nonsense, of course. A person who is consistently taught to fight will fight. Higher wages only mean greater access to goods and services.

[TermNachTer]

Waving fists and competently using complex equipment are very different things. And mattress makers have a very touching love for their skins.

[3danimal]

competently operate complex equipment

Here all the rules. High average plaque.
And the good condition of the park.

Swing fists

An example with motivation.

And mattress makers have a very touching love for their skins.

They select and educate people with the right qualities. They do not hold anyone by force.
It is generally dangerous to rely on "the enemy will be afraid".

[3danimal]

Outperforms in maneuverability at speeds around 0,6M.

[bar]

according to Reiser, the MiG-29 consumed a lot of fuel

For a gas station country this is not a problem

[iouris]

Fighter of kerosene.

[Bad_gr]

I came across information that after the unification of Germany, the former GDR MiG-29s took part in the NATO exercises and in battles with the F-16s they showed themselves very well. Specifically, in terms of locators: the capabilities are approximately comparable, but on the F-16 it takes its range due to the sensitivity of the receiver, while for us the MiG-29 - due to the power of the transmitter. And when these two fighters worked together, our transmitter power completely hampered the work of their locator.
".. Peacocks, you say ....." ("White sun of the desert")

[3danimal]

The instant outperforms the Falcon by "1 circle fight", and the MiG Falcon by "2 circle". If the "carousel" is tied, the 16th will twist. (For engines without OVT)
The MiG (it was in the 80s and 90s) has an advantage in close maneuver combat due to the NSC and R-73 missiles.
It didn't help much in the 90s against the last "blocks" with the AIM-120 Imba.
By the way, the cabin of the MiG (except for the latest modifications of the 00s and beyond) is noticeably older. Maximum "boilers", minimum screens. ILS is completely Spartan. (Though better than the MiG-23)

[Bad_gr]

Quote: 3danimal

By the way, the MiG's cockpit (except for the latest modifications of the 00s and beyond) is noticeably older. Maximum "boilers", minimum screens. ILS is completely Spartan.

Gradually changing.

[3danimal]

I do not argue, I specifically specified

except for the latest modifications 00s and beyond

The question is, what percentage of those in the second photo and, even more so, in the third in the army.
I will assume that 2 - within 30-40%, 3 - no more than 5%.

[Lozovik]

Quote: 3danimal

The instant outperforms the Falcon by "1 circle fight", and the MiG Falcon by "2 circle". If the "carousel" is tied, the 16th will twist. (For engines without OVT)

The MiG-29 surpasses the F-16A / C in nyrasp, nx dec, Vy, at some speeds it is 1-2 ° inferior in ωset.

Quote: 3danimal

By the way, the cabin of the MiG (except for the latest modifications of the 00s and beyond) is noticeably older.

Where are they to supermodern needles

[3danimal]

Where are they to supermodern needles

We look at the cockpit of the average Igla and MiG-29. The difference is "insignificant", well, the first one has an unhelpful radar with AFAR.

[Lozovik]

The average MiG is a 9-19 machine, its cockpit looks like this:

[3danimal]

9-19 is a MiG-29 cmt. And they are by no means the majority.
F-15:

[Lozovik]

Quote: 3danimal

9-19 is a MiG-29 cmt. And they are by no means the majority.

On 9-13 one regiment, the remaining 9-19, 9-41R, etc.

Quote: 3danimal

F-15:

Photo of the upgraded F-15C above.

[3danimal]

On 9-13 one regiment, the remaining 9-19, 9-41R, etc.

https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2827280.html
MiG-29 smt and ubm delivered 50 units in 2011-2020.
Only 44 / cmt, 6 / ubm and 70 / UB. There are much more old people.
There are 467 Super Hornets and 400 F-18 C / D. That is, apart from the number, most of the cars are modern. (Despite the fact that C / D is not too far behind)

[3danimal]

And here's the Super Hornet:

[Lozovik]

This is a render, just computer graphics.

[3danimal]

Is this a render too? The displays are identical.
https://youtu.be/Nj9D1Ls-_JM
And below the simulator:

[Dmitry Vladimirovich]

more detailed comparisons have long been translated and posted on the network:
MiG-29 Fulcrum vs F-16 Viper
http://mass-destruction-weapon.blogspot.com/2014/04/29-f-16.html

Remember that fighters do not fight in a vacuum. One-on-one comparison is one thing, but engagement and situational awareness is even more important. The lack of tools for obtaining information about the tactical situation in the MiG-29 is becoming an increasingly important factor with the increase in the number of participants in air combat. Weak radar and HUD, poor cockpit ergonomics increase the pilot's workload and are the reason for his poor awareness of the environment. My experience shows that the results of one-on-one air combat within the visual range are determined more by the skill of the pilot than by the qualities of the aircraft.
In multi-aircraft scenarios, such as a standard four-by-four training mission, the side with the best situational awareness takes precedence. In such missions, the F-15 and F-16 always outperform the MiG-29. In such conditions, they have practically no opportunity to use the potential of the combination of the helmet-mounted target designation system and the Archer. The design of the MiG-29 was the result of the Soviet take on tactical aviation and reflected the level of technology available to their aviation industry.

There are translated reviews of Polish pilots in the network comparing the MiG-29 and F-16

[3danimal]

Weak radar and HUD

About ILS: very minimalistic (even meager), immediately noticeable in comparison with the F-15/16/18.

[Lozovik]

ASP-23DCM with a fuel dispenser can be called meager, but not ASP-23ML, or even more so SEI-31. Have you seen them in the picture? I am silent about reality ...

[Lozovik]

Quote: Lozovik

ASP-23ML

Error reading ASP-17ML.

[3danimal]

I saw the base ILS MiG-29, in comparison with the mentioned F-kami. But I agree, there are worse.

[Lozovik]

What a meager indicator! Wait a minute, this is an F-15, then everything is fine.

[3danimal]

In comparison, it is scarce. And small image size.
There is also a photo of the F-18 cockpit above.

[Lozovik]

Quote: 3danimal

In comparison, it is scarce.

What other indication do you need in NO mode - asynchronous firing?

Quote: 3danimal

And small image size.

Did you study optics at school? The size of the image is larger along the line of sight of the pilot.

Quote: 3danimal

There is also a photo of the F-18 cockpit above.

Is it a photo? It is impossible to obtain such an image from a collimator at an angle.

[jaroff]

There is such an aviation joke since Soviet times: "Mig-29 is a long-range aircraft over a short-range drive."

[Alexey Koshkarov]

Something the American pilot decided to compare a heavy fighter with a light one. Another would be a Zaporozhets with a tractor K 701 compared by a wise guy

[nod739]

29th is correct to compare with f-16
A F-15 with 27