Military Review

Timur and Bayazid I. Ankara battle of the great commanders

234

In articles "Timur and Bayazid I. Great generals who did not divide the world" и "Sultan Bayezid I and the Crusaders" a story was started about Timur and Bayazid - generals and sovereigns who called themselves "swords of Islam" and "defenders of the faithful of the whole world." All the surrounding countries were in awe of their name, and fate willed that Timur and Bayazid, having met on the battlefield, found out which of them was the truly great commander of their time.


Probably, many of you asked yourself the question: would Alexander the Great have been able to crush Rome in land battles and Carthage in naval battles if, after the first victories over Darius, he made peace (as Parmenion suggested to him) and sent his army to the west?

How would Suvorov's Italian campaign have developed if he had been opposed by Napoleon Bonaparte, and not by Moreau, MacDonald and Joubert, as in reality?

We will never know the answers to these questions, but we know that the direct clash between Timur and Bayazid almost ended in the death of the growing Ottoman Empire.

Casus belli


Bayazid's authority as a defender of the faith and a fighter against the "giaours" was very high, and Timur could not ignore this circumstance in his plans. However, he managed to find a reason for the war and even put it up as the initiator of Bayezid himself.

At that time, the state of Kara-Koyunlu was located on the territory of Eastern Anatolia, Azerbaijan and Iraq, the capital of which was the city of Van. This state fell as a result of one of Timur's campaigns. Former ruler Kara Muhammad and his son Kara Yusuf fled to Ankara, where they found protection from Sultan Bayazid. Having nothing to do, Kara Yusuf began to amuse himself with plundering caravans of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina. And then Bayazid's eldest son, Suleiman, invaded the lands of Kara-Koyunlu, where Tamerlane's henchmen were already sitting.

Timur demanded to withdraw the Ottoman troops from the territory of his new "protectorate", and at the same time to extradite the blasphemer Kara Yusuf. As they say, in the correspondence between him and Bayazid then "all the swear words allowed by Eastern diplomatic forms were exhausted." And Tamerlane managed to provoke Bayezid, who urged his opponent to meet on the battlefield, presumptuously not taking any measures to repel his attack.

You probably formed an opinion of Bayazid as a stern commander who spent all his time on campaigns. This is not entirely true, because this sultan found time both for drunkenness, which was not at all encouraged by Islam, and for the most unbridled debauchery, in which not only girls, but also boys were his partners. And sometimes he suddenly locked himself in a private cell in the Bursa mosque and communicated only with Islamic theologians. In general, the person had a complex character. And he clearly underestimated Timur, who, unlike him, was just a commander who did not leave the saddle, and a very purposeful and prudent person.

Timur and Bayazid I. Ankara battle of the great commanders

Tamerlane. Illustration from the book "Les vrais pourtraits et vies des hommes illustres grecz, latins et payens, recueilliz de leurs tableaux, livres, medalles antiques et modernes" (1584)

And in 1400 the Turkic army entered Asia Minor, where Bayazid's son Suleiman did not dare to fight with it. He led his troops to the European coast of the Bosphorus, and Timur, having captured Sivas, did not pursue him. He went to Syria, friendly to the Ottomans - to Aleppo, Damascus and Baghdad. Having conquered these cities, Tamerlane again led his army to the borders of Asia Minor, where she spent the winter of 1401-1402.

Battle of Ankara


Shaken Bayazid was inactive in the hope that the formidable adversary, content with the rich booty already captured, would return to Samarkand. But in the summer of 1402, Timur moved his army to Ankara. Having stopped the next siege of Constantinople, the Sultan, having gathered all his forces, went to meet him, but their armies missed each other: Bayazid first went to Eastern Anatolia, and then turned to Ankara, and this march tired his soldiers.

Tamerlane's army found itself between the still unconquered fortress of Ankara and the approaching Ottoman troops, but this did not bother him at all. On July 20, the opposing armies entered the battle.

The numerical superiority was on the side of Timur (most often they call the numbers 140 thousand for Timur and 85 thousand for Bayazid), but the battle was not easy.

The flanks of the Turkic army were led by Timur's sons - Miran Shah and Shah Rukh, the vanguard - by his grandson Mirza Mohammed (Mirza Mohammed Sultan). Timur himself commanded the center in this battle. It is curious that in his army then there were 32 elephants, who were put in front of the cavalry.

In the Ottoman army, Bayazid's eldest son, Suleiman, led the right flank, which consisted of Anatolians and Tatars. Another son of the Sultan, Musa, commanded the left flank, where the Rumelians (residents of the European regions) lined up, including the Serbs of Stefan Lazarevich. The reserve units were subordinate to the third son of Bayezid, Mehmed. The sultan with the janissaries took up a position in the center. One more son was with him - Mustafa.

After the betrayal of the Tatars, who went over to the side of their fellow tribesmen, the right flank of the Ottoman army fell and one of its commanders, the Serb Perislav, who had converted to Islam, was killed. However, on the other flank, the Serbs first repelled the blow of the right wing of Tamerlane's army, and then broke through the enemy ranks and joined up with the reserve units of the Turks.

"These rags are fighting like lions," said the surprised Tamerlane and personally led the decisive attack against Bayezid's last troops.

The battle was entering its final phase, and there was no longer any hope of victory. Stefan Lazarevich advised Bayazid to retreat immediately, but he decided to rely on his janissaries, who vowed to fight to the end, protecting their master. Bayazid's sons decided to leave the Sultan. Suleiman, Bayazid's eldest son and heir, pursued by Timur's grandson Mirza Mohammed, went west with the Serbian units: the Serbs themselves believe that Stefan Lazarevich then saved Suleiman from shameful captivity or death. In Bursa (at that time this city was the capital of the Ottoman state) Suleiman boarded a ship, leaving on the shore the treasury of the Sultanate, as well as his father's library and harem. Mehmed, destined to defeat the brothers, retreated with his squad to the mountains - to the northeast. Musa went south. Bayezid remained in place, and the Janissaries loyal to him repelled the attacks of the superior forces of Tamerlane until nightfall. But their strength was already running out, and Bayazid nevertheless decided to flee. During the retreat, his horse fell, and the ruler, before whose name Europe trembled, was captured by the detachment of Sultan-Mahmud - the powerless Chingizid, who at that time was officially considered the khan of the Jagatai ulus, and in his name Tamerlane issued his laws.

"God must have little value in power on earth, since he gave one half of the world to the lame, and the other to the crooked,"

- said Timur, seeing Bayazid, who lost his eye in the battle with the Serbs.


S. Khlebovsky. "Capture of Bayazid by Timur", 1878

The last days of the life of Bayezid I


What did the famous conqueror do with the captured Sultan? Some authors claim that he mocked him, forcing his beloved wife to serve at their feasts in the presence of Bayezid, who got only scraps. They also claim that the winner put Bayezid in an iron cage, which served as a footboard for him when boarding a horse.


Capture of Sultan Bayazid I by Timur. Mughal miniature. Around 1680. London, British Library

But other sources say that Tamerlane, on the contrary, was merciful to his captive. Some historians believe that for the notorious cage, they took a stretcher decorated with a lattice, provided to the sultan, who suffered from gout and, during an exacerbation of this disease, practically could not walk.


Either a cage, or a stretcher of the captured Bayezid, reconstruction

One way or another, Bayazid died in captivity on March 8, 1403 in the Turkish city of Akshehir at the age of 43.

"The human race is not even worth it to have two leaders, it should be ruled by only one, and that is ugly, like me",

- Timur said about this.

According to some reports, Tamerlane intended to continue the war and finish off the Ottoman state. In order to transport his troops to Rumelia, he allegedly demanded ships from the emperor Manuel, as well as from the Venetians and Genoese who were in Constantinople. But so the omnipotent conqueror seemed more terrible than the already defeated Turks, they were playing for time, and therefore Tamerlane left without waiting for these ships. If this is indeed the case, one can only wonder at the shortsightedness of the Byzantines, Venetians and Genoese.

However, at the same time, it is known that after the victory over Ankara, Timur sent a caftan to Bayazid's eldest son Suleiman: according to the Eastern tradition, accepting such a gift meant admitting oneself subordinate. After consulting with those close to him, Suleiman accepted the caftan: he did not have the strength to resist, just as there was no doubt that Timur, having sent this caftan to another brother, would punish him for disobedience. Thus, the Ottoman state became a protectorate of the state of Timur and the conqueror had no reason to continue the war (and he no longer needed ships). And after the victory over Ankara, he had already taken enough loot.

Aftermath of the Battle of Ankara


So, Sultan Bayezid I died in captivity, the Ottoman state fell apart, and his four sons entered into a fierce struggle (the so-called interregnum period, or the period of the empire without a sultan, "Fitret Dodemi", which lasted 11 years: from 1402 to 1413 biennium). In Edirne, with the permission of Timur, Bayazid's eldest son Suleiman proclaimed himself sultan, who relied mainly on the Rumelian (European) part of the empire. Chandarly Ali Pasha, the grand vizier who had been in this post since the time of Murad I. Suleiman also retained control over the janissary corps and the remnants of the army, swore allegiance to him.


Suleiman Chelebi

But the ruler of Bursa (the capital and region in northwestern Anatolia) Tamerlane appointed Isa, who refused to obey Suleiman. Another son of Bayazid, Musa, was captured by Ankara, but was released after the death of his father in order to bury him in Bursa. Musa had quite significant forces at his disposal, and therefore Isa left the city for some time.


Musa Chelebi

In eastern Anatolia, the youngest of Bayazid's sons, 15-year-old Mehmed, was the only one who remained free from the oath to Timur. The famous Ottoman commander Haji Gazi Evrenos-bey, a participant in the battle of Nikopol, joined Mehmed.

All these sons of Bayazid were nicknamed Chelebi - Noble (but also Educated), and Mehmed was also called Kirishchi - Archer (another translation is the Master of the bowstring).

Bayazid's two sons did not take part in the internecine wars that followed: Mustafa was taken by Timur to Samarkand, and Kasym was still a child.

Ottoman state after the death of Bayezid I



Fitret Donemi on Bayezid I State Map

Since the brothers refused to obey Suleiman, in order to secure the northern borders and free his hands for war with them, he concluded a treaty with Byzantium, according to which she was exempted from paying tribute. He was also forced to temporarily relinquish control over Bulgaria, Central Greece and the coastal territory from Silivri to Varna. As you understand, this did not add to his popularity in the rebellious provinces.

The first of the brothers to fall was Isa, who was killed in 1406, and Bursa was captured by Mehmed. But Suleiman managed to expel Mehmed from Bursa and inflict a number of defeats on him in Anatolia. However, when he returned to Rumelia to begin rebuilding his power in the Balkans, Mehmed returned to his domain. His power was also recognized by Musa, who, by order of his brother, in 1410 crossed with troops to the Balkan Peninsula. After the first setbacks, he nevertheless defeated Suleiman (who tried to flee, but was found and killed), after which he declared himself the ruler of Rumelia. For three and a half years, the Ottoman state was divided into two parts. Mehmed's ally in the battle with the last brother was the Byzantine emperor Manuel II, who provided him with his ships to ferry troops to the European coast of the Bosphorus. The Serbs also fought on the side of Mehmed, and Musa was supported by the Wallachian ruler Mircea I Stary - a participant in the Crusade in 1396 and the battle of Nikopol. In 1413, the war of the brothers ended with the victory of Mehmed, and Musa was killed by the Serb Milos, which was mentioned in the article "Timur and Bayazid I. Great generals who did not divide the world".

Ottoman tradition presents Mehmed I as a kind, meek and just sultan.


Sultan Mehmed I elebi on an Ottoman miniature in a 1590 manuscript, kept in Dresden

However, it was he who defeated all the brothers in this brutal Turkish "game of thrones". In total, during his life, Mehmed took a personal part in 24 battles, in which, according to some sources, he received 40 wounds. He is often referred to as the second founder of the Ottoman Empire. In general, the Ottoman meekness and Turkish kindness of this son of Bayezid simply "rolls over".

Serbian prince Lazar, as we remember, died in the fight against the Ottomans. His son Stephen faithfully served Bayezid - until the defeat of this sultan in 1402. And both of them eventually became saints of the Serbian Orthodox Church.


Holy Martyr Prince Lazar, fresco of the monastery monastery of Saints Peter and Paul, Herzegovina


Saint blessed Stefan Lazarevich. Tutor's portrait in the Church of the Holy Trinity, Manasia Monastery (Resava), Serbia, until 1418

Among the people, Stephen was revered as a saint soon after his death, but he was officially canonized only in 1927.

After temporarily leaving the power of the Ottoman sultans, Serbia, headed by Stefan Lazarevich, did not gain independence, becoming a vassal of Hungary. The prince himself then received from the emperor of Byzantium the title of despot of Serbia, which passed to his heirs. It was under Stefan that Belgrade (later part of Hungary) became the capital of Serbia. He died at the age of 50 in 1427.

After the defeat of Bayezid I, the Byzantines managed to get rid of the Ottoman tribute for some time and regain part of the previously lost territories, including the coast of the Sea of ​​Marmara and the city of Thessaloniki. These successes were ephemeral. After 50 years, the ancient empire fell, the last blow to Constantinople was struck in May 1453 by the great-grandson of Bayezid I - Mehmed II Fatih (Conqueror).


Jean-Joseph Benjamin-Constant. Mehmed II's entry into Constantinople

Tamerlane returned to Central Asia and began to prepare a new campaign against China. But his army did not reach China due to the death of the conqueror on February 19, 1405.

In the next article we will talk about how Sultan Murad II (son of Mehmed елelebi) tried to abandon the throne, about the last crusade against the Ottoman Empire, the big battle at Varna and the death of the King of Poland and Hungary, Vladislav III, who broke his oath on the Gospel.


S. Khlebovsky. Murad II with his retinue at the body of Vladislav III
Author:
Articles from this series:
Ryzhov V.A. Timur and Bayazid I. Great commanders who did not divide the world
Ryzhov V.A.Sultan Bayazid I and the Crusaders
234 comments
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  1. Van 16
    Van 16 1 November 2020 06: 51
    13
    Very good thanks! We'll have to be patient, because I want to read the sequel right now))
    1. Proxima
      Proxima 1 November 2020 14: 02
      0
      Author, quote: "Probably many of you asked yourself a question: Alexander the Great would have been able to crush Rome in land battles ..." That's just how many of us did not ask ourselves such a stupid question .. fool Under Macedonian Rome as a state did not exist yet, and there was an ordinary state that could not attract the attention of Alexander. Rome became Rome in our understanding only after the Punic Wars, when Carthage won. Let me remind you that the Battle of Gaugamellas took place in 331 BC, and the Battle of Cannes 115 (!!!) years later. And then, it was the cult defeat of the Romans from Haniball, and before the victory over Carthage, they were oh, how far away. hi
      1. VLR
        1 November 2020 16: 05
        +9
        If then "Rome was not", with whom did Alexander's second cousin Pyrrhus fight (and could not win)? And 10 years after it - just as unsuccessful, Carthage? It is clear that the Romans did not have time to gain strength, but they already were and fought well, and they learned from their opponents very quickly, and after the first setbacks they rebelled like a phoenix from the ashes.
        1. Proxima
          Proxima 1 November 2020 18: 27
          -1
          The Macedonian, as the heir to the Greek world, had a dilemma, to direct his wax to the West or the East, but in fact there was no choice - of course Persia is the centuries-old rival of the Hellenes! And here is still non-existent Rome (in its known sense) please explain!
        2. vladcub
          vladcub 1 November 2020 18: 52
          +3
          "with whom he fought and could not win" perhaps the ancient Rus? Which Genghis Khan twisted his tails?
        3. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 1 November 2020 19: 34
          +2
          Valery! This is "hopeless"!
        4. Ptolemy Lag
          Ptolemy Lag 2 November 2020 10: 02
          0
          Pyrrhus fought Rome nearly fifty years after Alexander's death. A Macedonian war machine would pass through Rome like a skating rink.
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 1 November 2020 18: 46
      +2
      On the one hand, this is bad, but on the other hand, it is a guarantee that there will be less: "historical obscurantism" (expression of our respected encyclopedist V.N.)
  2. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 1 November 2020 08: 55
    +9
    in which, according to some sources, he received 40 wounds.
    "I was wounded 25 times. Twice in the war, three times with wood chips when chopping wood, and twenty times with evil tongues at the court in St. Petersburg" (C)
    Thank you, Valery!
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 1 November 2020 09: 44
      +5
      "Ah, evil tongues are worse than a pistol" (c).
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 1 November 2020 09: 48
        +6
        "I would have to cope with my relatives, but I can handle the girl" (C)
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 1 November 2020 09: 57
          +6
          “If it's Kolka or even Slavka -
          I will not object to my comrades ”(c).
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 1 November 2020 10: 02
            +6
            "The guys have a wide outlook,
            From the stall to our grocery "(C)
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 1 November 2020 10: 18
              +4
              "... The second was drunk at the counter in a snack bar,
              Then I don't remember, I got to the point ... "(c)
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 1 November 2020 10: 22
                +5
                "And I know that sooner or later,
                I'll be maimed by alcohol
                But you won't cover yourself with cirrhosis, will you?
                Comrade Liver, Comrade Liver! " (FROM)
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 November 2020 10: 40
                  +5
                  "Let the vodka not end in a glass,
                  Someday they will write about us in books
                  Just be in your pocket, please
                  Comrade fig,
                  Comrade fig. "(C)
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 1 November 2020 10: 50
                    +4
                    I haven't heard this verse good
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 1 November 2020 11: 04
                      +9
                      It's a pity the rest will not stand any censorship. laughing
              2. Korsar4
                Korsar4 1 November 2020 11: 45
                +6
                "Seeing Mishkina melancholy
                (And he is dangerous in longing)
                I took another sip of kvask
                And he said: "I agree" (c).
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 November 2020 12: 15
                  +5
                  "Consent is a product of non-resistance of the parties" (C)
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 1 November 2020 13: 18
                    +5
                    “Do you want me to knock him, and he will turn purple speckled” (c).
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 1 November 2020 13: 32
                      +5
                      "Father Fyodor spat, and he got hit too." (C)
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 1 November 2020 14: 55
                        +7
                        “Boys are throwing stones at passers-by. The evil one hit 3 times, and the good -5, because good always triumphs over evil ”(c).
                      2. Catfish
                        Catfish 1 November 2020 15: 10
                        +6
                        "... and the newsboy boy, without haste, threw banana peels at him and said:" I don’t want to, but such a case must not be missed! "
                      3. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 1 November 2020 15: 26
                        +6
                        “You'd better slow down to dad.
                        Dad is soft. He will forgive ”(c).
                      4. Catfish
                        Catfish 1 November 2020 15: 44
                        +4
                        [Center]
                        "But the brakes are failing! Code!
                        I miss the horizon on the move! "(C)
                      5. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 1 November 2020 16: 29
                        +4
                        "Get out on your own!" (c).
                2. Icelord
                  Icelord 3 November 2020 09: 41
                  +1
                  At the end of the century
                  Took and overthrew
                  Evil person
                  Kind person,
                  From a grenade launcher
                  Shmyak him, goat.
                  Therefore, good is
                  Stronger than Evil
                3. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 3 November 2020 14: 35
                  +2
                  “Civil rights were written by a kulak.
                  The sword is a state right.
                  Gunpowder ... erased them and created
                  Military regulations "(c).
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 1 November 2020 19: 43
    +5
    I here, inadvertently learned ... In any situation, it's easier to be a jester - you will have less negative ... For knowledge, and, as a result, doubts, are not needed by the crowd, it needs a sense of unity, in other words "herd spirit".
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 1 November 2020 20: 02
      +3
      This is a separate conversation. I don't even want to quote. Although Khayyam comes to mind, and so on.

      It's better not to merge with the crowd. And thoughts on this topic are something like this:

      https://stihi.ru/2002/11/26-361
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 1 November 2020 20: 12
        +2
        I don't even want to quote.
        Right! The joke, a little, has outgrown itself. It remains to look for another use for your own mind ...
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 1 November 2020 21: 01
          +2
          There can be a lot of directions. Already depends on the inclinations. Who chooses wholeness, someone will be satisfied with the vinaigrette.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 1 November 2020 21: 13
            +2
            The wholeness of the dish, does not exclude the "vinaigrette" of the methods of preparation and the list of guests
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 1 November 2020 21: 44
              +2
              Okay, then a choice: steak and vinaigrette. However, they are compatible.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 1 November 2020 21: 51
                +2
                Though the teeth do not allow it anymore, it is definitely a steak, "with blood" !!!
  • Undecim
    Undecim 1 November 2020 09: 00
    +8
    This is not entirely true, because this sultan found time both for drunkenness, which was not at all encouraged by Islam, and for the most unbridled debauchery, in which not only girls, but also boys were his partners.
    The Scottish historian John Patrick Douglas Balfour, 3rd Baron Kinross, wrote about Bayezid's drunkenness and debauchery in his book "The Ottoman Empire. Six Centuries from Rise to Decline." But there is a nuance. The third Baron Kinross himself was a homosexual.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 1 November 2020 09: 03
      +9
      It is difficult to maintain morality when nothing limits you.
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 1 November 2020 12: 46
        +6
        Quote: Korsar4
        nothing limits

        1. Catfish
          Catfish 1 November 2020 13: 48
          +6
          Hello, Sergey hi .
          There is one more purely state motto; To drag and not let go. Those. drag where you don’t need to, and not let go exactly where you would like to go. laughing
          And all for the same reason:
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 1 November 2020 14: 00
            +7
            Hi Konstantin!
            What has changed since then?
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 1 November 2020 14: 02
              +5
              Someone once said - "Every nation is worthy of its government." Sometimes it seems to me that he was absolutely right. request
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 1 November 2020 14: 09
                +4
                Choose to taste!



                wink
          2. Phil77
            Phil77 1 November 2020 14: 12
            +8
            Quote: Sea Cat
            wanted to get there.

            And you can't get away from this!
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 1 November 2020 14: 16
              +6
              "- Hang everyone !!!
              -Minkhertz, you will be left without subjects! "
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 1 November 2020 14: 21
                +4
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                "- Hang everyone !!!

                And who should Anton hang, even conditionally? lol
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 1 November 2020 14: 24
                  +3
                  Why this question if you have already decided on the leader in the queue? laughing
                  Or would you rather be beaten with paving slabs?
                  1. Phil77
                    Phil77 1 November 2020 14: 31
                    +3
                    Quote: 3x3zsave
                    Or would you rather be beaten with paving slabs?

                    This takes us back to the Middle Ages. lol
                    But the real terms for some figures would clearly have deserved it *. But this is from the realm of fantasy, and * it is in the next department *. hi
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 1 November 2020 14: 41
                      +4
                      It takes us back to the Middle Ages
                      Not the worst era!
                      1. Phil77
                        Phil77 1 November 2020 14: 44
                        +3
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Not the worst era!

                        There were problems with dentistry. wink
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 1 November 2020 14: 51
                        +4
                        With the emergence and development of universities - with medicine in principle!
              2. Catfish
                Catfish 1 November 2020 14: 38
                +3
                Something like that, obviously. drinks wink
            2. Catfish
              Catfish 1 November 2020 14: 31
              0
              It’s all about giving to data - it will still be given! drinks laughing
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 1 November 2020 15: 32
                +1
                "Forever Young Forever drunk!" (FROM)
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 November 2020 15: 40
                  0
                  And with a gun in hand. laughing
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 1 November 2020 15: 44
                    0
                    "With a revolver in hand,
                    And Lenin in the head! "(C)
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 1 November 2020 15: 47
                      +1
                      Head rtostan applauds. laughing
                2. depressant
                  depressant 1 November 2020 15: 44
                  +3
                  Why do the police, who know how to shoot accurately in the leg, always shoot to kill? Can't get into the hand with a weapon?
                  This question periodically occupies me. Depending on the state of the information background.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 1 November 2020 15: 46
                    +3
                    What are the police officers, Lyudmila Yakovlevna? hi
                    1. depressant
                      depressant 1 November 2020 15: 57
                      +3
                      I'm referring to the picture shown by the Sea Cat just above. Background - constant messages from the United States, where police are shooting too well. Yes, and we occasionally slip that, they say, a criminal was shot with a knife, using a service weapon. But what about the educational value of a shot in the leg?
                      For some reason the question began to interest me, pushing aside the interest in the military fuss of Tamerlane and Bayazid)))
                    2. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 1 November 2020 16: 05
                      +3
                      The educational value lies in the fact that police officers working "on the ground" are usually armed with weapons with a stopping effect. But it's better about that with Constantine.
                    3. Catfish
                      Catfish 1 November 2020 18: 11
                      +4
                      Good evening, Lyudmila. hi
                      Here I got in without asking. It seems to me that everything is simple here, what we have, what is in America - by sending a bandit to the next world this year, you are relieved of problems with him next year. But with this it is better to our Vlad, he is still a real and active professional. smile
                    4. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 1 November 2020 18: 27
                      +2
                      It remains to designate for Lyudmila Yakovlevna who Vlad is.
                    5. Catfish
                      Catfish 1 November 2020 18: 40
                      +2
                      If he wants, he will ask if anyone has it.
                    6. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 1 November 2020 18: 47
                      +2
                      It is truth too! Although, I think you are also lost in Vlad's professional status
                    7. Catfish
                      Catfish 1 November 2020 18: 58
                      +2
                      At one time, he explained something to me in a "personal", so a little in the know.
                    8. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 1 November 2020 19: 01
                      +2
                      Okay, let's replace it for clarity!
                3. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 1 November 2020 18: 52
                  +2
                  But about calibers, muzzle energy, "stopping action", you could tell the lady. Well, at least, in the axes ...
                4. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 November 2020 19: 04
                  +4
                  Well, the lady doesn’t ask me, so it’s not really required.
                  And so, I'm always happy. smile
                5. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 1 November 2020 19: 08
                  +4
                  Old you, mmmm ... male dog! However, bravo !!! good laughing
                6. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 November 2020 19: 14
                  +3
                  Thank you Friend, good to hear! drinks laughing
                  My mother used the expression "female dog" in relation to some girls. smile
                7. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 1 November 2020 19: 21
                  +2
                  Your mom is a cultured woman! I am more concise in definitions. The "female dog" is the longest of them, especially if "in the steering wheel".
                8. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 November 2020 20: 04
                  +3
                  So, whatever, though about them. good, just liked the work.))
                9. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 1 November 2020 20: 15
                  +2
                  Mmm ... I'm getting lost ... ????
                10. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 November 2020 20: 23
                  +1
                  Instead of faces, masks, and the container of gray matter is completely empty, everything is empty, everywhere there is a draft and only intoxication from the sounds of your own voice. I watched them whistle on the phone. Drug. Therefore, there are no eyes on the sculpture, they do not need them, only the resonance of the skull.
                11. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 1 November 2020 20: 30
                  +2
                  Uncle Kostya! Sorry for the frankness, but what, we are on this resource, something else?
                12. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 November 2020 20: 49
                  +4
                  "We are not playing with money,
                  And just spend eternity! "(C) drinks
                13. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 1 November 2020 20: 56
                  +4
                  We play, fascinated by the "beauty of the game". However, the partners in it are the same losers as we are.
                14. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 November 2020 21: 20
                  +3
                  I don't consider myself a loser. I have wonderful children, a wonderful wife, reliable and loyal friends, and besides that ... "what else does a person need to calmly meet old age?" smile
                15. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 1 November 2020 21: 30
                  +3
                  "What else does a person need to calmly meet old age?"
                  Dog!!!
                16. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 November 2020 21: 37
                  +2
                  Dog!!!

                  Nine - Cat !!!
                17. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 1 November 2020 21: 48
                  +2
                  This is your cat business. I need a dog.
                18. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 November 2020 21: 50
                  +1
                  You seem to have it.
                19. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 1 November 2020 21: 59
                  +2
                  The dog's age is short-lived. My creature is four years old. As sad as it is, I will probably survive it. When and if this happens, another dog will appear in my life to guide me.
                20. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 November 2020 23: 02
                  +1
                  Dog and Woman - one does not interfere with the other, I judge by myself. smile
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 1 November 2020 20: 49
    +1
    Sorry, but I'll continue. What are we? In the absolute multitude of information culture? The same "heifers". Average, with sudden surges of dissatisfied libido. Extinguished by the common satisfaction of the herd.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 1 November 2020 20: 54
    +2
    Well, sprinkle ashes on my head, but personally, I can do without it. What I've never done is self-flagellation, a kind of moral masturbation. No, thank you.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 1 November 2020 21: 06
    +2
    Well, sprinkle ashes on my head, but in a personal order, I can do without it.
    Thanks for the valuable hygienic advice on caring for your hair! But my cockroaches are just my cockroaches! I do not impose them on anyone.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 1 November 2020 21: 18
    +3
    Do not be offended, cockroaches, they all have, and everyone has their own favorites. smile drinks
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 1 November 2020 21: 22
    +3
    Uncle Kostya! You need to try very hard to offend me !!!
  • Catfish
    Catfish 1 November 2020 21: 36
    +3
    I'm not trying, and why?
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 1 November 2020 21: 47
    +2
    Everything! Closed the question!
  • Lexus
    Lexus 1 November 2020 17: 50
    +4
    Uncle Kostya hi , they also call to "take a bite of the bit" and "treat with understanding".
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 1 November 2020 18: 11
      +1
      Long live the pension reform! wassat
      1. Lexus
        Lexus 1 November 2020 18: 23
        +3
        Long-livers are one of the primary threats to Russia's national security. wassat


    2. depressant
      depressant 1 November 2020 18: 29
      +2
      Here, damned devils, some craftsman has laid it! wassat )))))
      I mean a rider on a ... horse, hmm.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 1 November 2020 18: 46
        +3
        "Young pioneers, cast-iron heads, pewter themselves, damned devils." (C)
        1. depressant
          depressant 1 November 2020 18: 56
          +3
          There are people who are able to link to each word)))
          Frank Herbert described this as the philosophical principle of "censunni", which starts the problem in a circle, which closes with the beginning of the discussion by a solution already worked out in its process)))
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 1 November 2020 19: 12
            +3
            ... link to each word ...

            Because with a kind word and a revolver, you can achieve much more than one revolver. Well, and if the client doesn't get it ... smile
            1. depressant
              depressant 1 November 2020 19: 58
              +2
              That word for word Oh, heh, heh! ...
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 1 November 2020 20: 03
                +3
                "... And I say, star, I say, and the stars are like bowls ...
                She answered me - then the lamps are light and curl around the midges. "(C)
                Well, do not kill for this. request smile
              2. depressant
                depressant 1 November 2020 20: 36
                +3
                But I still made a mistake in staging the stress!
                Here's how:
                Word for word ...
                That is, talking, grating, not shooting. But if we return to the topic of the article, then the problem in some cases is still unsolvable. Russian princes agreed to pay tribute to the Horde. Bayazid's sons bought off Tamerlane. Everything is through battles. Heaps of people - in the trash. There would be no way to immediately assess your own capabilities, say: "Yes, please! Here you are!" And they themselves will slowly gain strength and strategic capabilities for the final solution of the problem, vigilantly watching the foe, carefully studying his strengths and weaknesses. But, apparently, either arrogance, or lack of cohesion in the management team of the territory, or bad custom, forcing to swing sabers. Civilization gained experience. Didn't get it. Therefore, instead of a shot in the leg, a shot in the head. Negotiations are still perceived as a manifestation not of wisdom, but of weakness of the parties.
              3. Catfish
                Catfish 1 November 2020 20: 50
                0
                Therefore, instead of a shot in the leg, a shot in the head.

                Some individuals should not be born at all, it would be better for everyone, including them. request
              4. depressant
                depressant 1 November 2020 21: 32
                +2
                And try humanity not to give birth to them! Well, they are worthless, they themselves with amazing persistence climb into the white light and, allowing themselves to twirl, turn out to be much nicer to that humanity than some significant pillar-like ones that cannot be twisted.
              5. Catfish
                Catfish 1 November 2020 21: 39
                +1
                ... with ... persistence climb into the white light

                Oh, if only to light ...
              6. depressant
                depressant 1 November 2020 22: 12
                +2
                Yes, you are right - they are climbing into the darkness! And all with the same stubborn persistence. Take the same Erdogan, the heir to the Sultan's traditions. The laurels of Suleiman the Magnificent do not give rest. He was at least something of himself, ruled for 46 years, made Turkey great in the economic and political traditions of that time, that is, wars of conquest and plunder of neighbors. And this one is trying to do the same without looking out the window, not seeing that the weather is different in the yard, the 21st century.
                This is generally an amazing story - the peoples see and feel the time, the rulers do not. This is what palace self-isolation leads to)))
              7. Catfish
                Catfish 1 November 2020 23: 10
                +2
                This is generally an amazing story - the peoples see, feel the time, the rulers do not.

                I don’t quite agree, not only the rulers, peoples professing a certain religion, and not only in Erdogan’s country, prefer to live with the spiritual values ​​of the early Middle Ages, it’s not enough, they want to kick all the “infidels” into this very “faithful” bottom. And the fact that so far in our country there are no open and bloodshed clashes on this matter does not mean anything. Everything is still ahead - everything always comes to us later than to "enlightened" Europe, but when it comes, then certainly - one kind word will not work.
              8. depressant
                depressant 1 November 2020 23: 40
                +1
                There are no open clashes in our country?!? ...
                Your information is out of date, colleague.

                "The leaders of the notorious Azerbaijani group VBON (For the Good of the Common People), which many consider, not without reason, to be an ethnic organized crime group, have been arrested in Moscow."
                What was VBON doing this? At first, the consanguineous were admonished - so that they did not drink or smoke in public places. Then they took up the locals: they practiced catching and beating up those who "said something wrong" on the Internet about Azerbaijan and Azerbaijanis. They were beaten, then brought to their knees, forcing them to repent on camera in front of the Azerbaijani people, then they were beaten again. And the video was posted on the Internet, which demonstrated the "coolness" of the organization. There are at least nine such "shares" known. But these are only those that are known ...

                VBON practically legally operated for several years, renting gyms for training fighters and posting its "exploits" on YouTube, recruiting Azerbaijani youth living in Russia into its ranks. But now, with all the outrageous "tolerance" of our law enforcement system to Caucasian organizations, the affairs of VBON were finally noticed (a similar Russian organization was identified and would have been jailed for the second month of such activity). The VBON leaders Roman Agayev and Ragib Bayramov were detained on charges of hooliganism. During the searches, the defendants found more than 10 million rubles, 19 telephones, religious Islamic literature, several thousand dollars and ... a muffler for a pistol - one must understand, "to enlighten" those who are especially dull. In total, seven members of the organization were investigated. Seven in total. "
                Constantinople, November 1, 2020.

                And do you know how wide the loyalty to them is? Even I, without leaving my village, practically speaking with no one, is aware that in the neighboring village the head of one of the departments of the police station is an ethnic Azerbaijani who has a corruption link with the administration of my village. And so everywhere, they penetrate all organizations. We betray ourselves. Actually, not ordinary citizens, but the power is so arranged.
              9. Catfish
                Catfish 2 November 2020 13: 45
                +1
                Good afternoon, Lyudmila. hi
                Sorry that I did not answer right away, somehow it overcame me sharply, slammed into the bed and lay around right up to 12 o'clock. My wife and I have a second run on Covid, an autumn one, and a state of average trash. My friend, he is the head. department in one of the Ryazan hospitals, says that the vaccine does not give immunity from infection, and we just have to somehow live on with all this, he himself endures everything on his feet for the second time. Now my friend took his wife to the city to buy another portion of antibiotics. Here, only one thing pleases - neither money nor power will save you from this rubbish - everyone is equal and we walk under one god.
                But as a matter of fact, I will say only one thing with the animals - we ourselves need to unite in a united front not counting on the authorities, the authorities are concerned only with their own safety and nothing more. An old truth. True, something and they do, or pretend to do. Today, I just opened the side, and I already received a message from one of our colleagues in PM:
                "Leaders of the notorious Azerbaijani group VBON were arrested in Moscow
                Such are the cases.
                I wish you good health and not succumb to any infections.
                "Let's break through, guys, with a bayonet and a grenade ..." smile
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 1 November 2020 09: 17
    +4
    But there is a nuance. The third Baron Kinross himself was a homosexual
    This fact certainly does not paint the Scottish peer, however, the connection is not obvious. At least, as in the case of Mary Reno, it is not obvious.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 1 November 2020 10: 06
      +4
      I didn't say it was obvious. But the fact is suggestive.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 1 November 2020 10: 16
        +3
        But the fact is suggestive.
        For example?
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 1 November 2020 10: 34
          +3
          A bad example is contagious! hi
  • hohol95
    hohol95 1 November 2020 10: 36
    +2
    And who wrote about such behavior of Ivan IV?
    Foreigners?
    About his feasts and subsequent communication with the priest-fathers.
  • sivuch
    sivuch 1 November 2020 11: 28
    +2
    if sclerosis does not change, about the same as about an undoubted and well-known fact, wrote Commin
  • Trojan_wolf
    Trojan_wolf 1 November 2020 09: 26
    +5
    Thank you, interesting article.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 1 November 2020 10: 11
    +7
    It was interesting to know that the "Great Lame" was not only a talented military leader, but also a man with a genuine sense of humor. smile
    smile
    "The human race is not even worth it to have two leaders, it should be ruled by only one, and that is ugly, like me",
    Hmmm, well, what can you add here - everything is said.
    Valery, thank you very much. good
  • Engineer
    Engineer 1 November 2020 10: 31
    +5

    Tamerlane has a Russian face !!!!
    The picture clearly says "Tartares"
    You cannot erase Aryan tartars from history
    Checkmate, traditions and russophobes bully
    1. parusnik
      parusnik 1 November 2020 11: 27
      +7
      Tamerlane has a Russian face !!!!
      And typical Tartarian clothing and weapons. laughing
    2. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 1 November 2020 11: 47
      12
      Engineer (Denis)
      You cannot erase Aryan tartars from history
      Checkmate, traditions and russophobes bully
      Well what can I say, not all fool the war has cleaned up ... laughing
      Is this all your evidence? And who painted this engraving, in what century or you fool alternatives are not interested in such nuances? request
      1. VLR
        1 November 2020 12: 02
        +4
        This portrait was painted in the XNUMXth century by people who had never seen Timur.
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 1 November 2020 12: 16
          14
          VLR (Valery Ryzhov)
          This portrait was painted in the XNUMXth century by people who had never seen Timur.
          So I am about the same, but apparently for the "alternatively gifted" this is not an argument.
        2. ee2100
          ee2100 1 November 2020 13: 16
          +1
          Portrait from a portrait! And they didn't answer anything about the word "tartares" am !
      2. Engineer
        Engineer 1 November 2020 12: 09
        +4
        Is this all your evidence?

        You don’t redeem irony without smiles ???
    3. Motorist
      Motorist 1 November 2020 17: 39
      +1
      Quote: Engineer
      Tamerlane has a Russian face !!!!

      I think he is generally Pugachev's brother. Or yourself? ..

    4. Icelord
      Icelord 3 November 2020 09: 52
      0
      And the Hungarian saber for some reason request
    5. Icelord
      Icelord 3 November 2020 13: 10
      0
      That is, I do not mean that the turturia was laughing was not of course. Just painted clearly European
  • Engineer
    Engineer 1 November 2020 10: 40
    +3
    The article is not very good, to be honest.
    Shpakovsky would have stuck drawings from Osprey and would have been right. It's more fun and gives more topics for discussion.
    We could also dwell on different estimates of the number.
    The author does not seem to be interested in this.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 1 November 2020 10: 58
      +4
      We could also dwell on different estimates of the number.
      Denis! hi
      By the way, there is an author on the site who has developed his own method of calculating the mob reserve. I repeatedly asked him to write a material on this topic. Unfortunately, Artem is keen on other projects.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 1 November 2020 11: 15
        +3
        Mob. the reserve must be correlated with the production capabilities for weapons.
        In general, here is a picture illustrating the complexity of the phenomenon.
        The percentage of weapons among the Sarmatians in the graves can, as a first approximation, be determined as the percentage of the armed population
        Among the Sarmatians in the early, Savromat period, weapons are found in 80% of burials, and a lot in female
        The next, middle Sarmatian, the share of weapons falls sharply, less than 40%. In female burials, it also becomes much less.
        Late Sarmatian - weapons in more than 60% of the graves. Disappears in female burials.
        All this time, the Sarmatians remain an exceptionally aggressive community, and the productive forces as a whole are constantly growing.
        The figures brought from memory
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 1 November 2020 11: 23
          +4
          Mob. the reserve must be correlated with the production capabilities for weapons.
          But what about demography, food supply, natural conditions ...?
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 1 November 2020 11: 27
            +2
            By itself
            It's just about the complexity of the estimates
            Sedentary communities - high density, large numbers, the possibility of creating significant reserves. And in most cases there are few weapons
            Nomadic communities are low in abundance, low density, and there are fewer opportunities for reserves. A lot of weapons
            The result of the confrontation is known. Nomadic communities for a millennium and a half emerged victorious in most cases
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 1 November 2020 11: 45
              +4
              In my opinion, this rule works in conditions of the same level of scientific and technological revolution in communities. If the levels are different, settledness wins. Although there are exceptions here, for example, the Araucans.
              1. Liam
                Liam 1 November 2020 11: 46
                +2
                Nomads do not seem to do well with the level of scientific and technological revolution
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 1 November 2020 11: 51
                  +4
                  It may not be your own, but borrowed. Like the same Mongols.
                  1. Liam
                    Liam 1 November 2020 13: 08
                    +1
                    That's just the point. Their limit is to borrow
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 1 November 2020 13: 14
                      +4
                      Below, Denis has listed the nomads' own inventions, not a complete list.
                      1. Liam
                        Liam 1 November 2020 13: 16
                        0
                        I read it. The list is not very impressive, to be honest. Not enough for several millennia. Especially considering that their homeland (Asia) in all eras lived 70% of the world population
                      2. Engineer
                        Engineer 1 November 2020 13: 25
                        0
                        Stop.
                        Forgot the actual riding and chariots with horses
                        in all eras, 70% of the world population lived

                        One bad luck. 90 percent sedentary- Mesopotamia, India China laughing
                        That is, all these inventions are the fruit of creativity of 5% of the population for one and a half to two thousand years.
                      3. Liam
                        Liam 1 November 2020 13: 33
                        -1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Stop

                        Without borrowing the scientific and technological revolution of the sedentary Chinese, the Mongols would not have reached the Volga, let alone Europe.
                      4. Engineer
                        Engineer 1 November 2020 13: 36
                        +1
                        Undoubtedly
                        But it was the Mongols who reached the Adriatic, and not the HRE to China
                      5. Liam
                        Liam 1 November 2020 13: 45
                        -1
                        Decipher what HRE is.
                        In any case, let me remind you that sedentary Russians came to China and settled for centuries in their not very strong period, and this was done not even by the state, but by scattered groups of irregulars
                      6. Engineer
                        Engineer 1 November 2020 13: 51
                        +1
                        Holy Roman Empire. German Edition (TM)
                        There is no contradiction here. European supremacy began with the Great Leap of the 14th century. About which it is written, rewritten.
                        Asia and its nomads were left far behind as a result.
                        In Asia proper, the superiority of the settled over the nomads did not smell. Manchus will confirm
                      7. Liam
                        Liam 1 November 2020 14: 06
                        +2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Holy Roman Empire

                        Has HRE ever going there?

                        Over Murmansk - no clouds, no clouds,
                        And even now fly to Ashgabat.
                        Opened Kiev, Kharkov, Chisinau,
                        And Lviv is open - but I don't need to go there!

                        Quote: Engineer
                        the superiority of the settled over the nomads did not smell.

                        The paradox is that even about the existence of these mighty empires of nomads, we know only thanks to the scientific and technological revolution of sedentary writing, monuments, etc. These elementary signs of scientific and technological revolution were not among the nomads. These are meteors that do not change the picture of the starry sky)
                2. Icelord
                  Icelord 3 November 2020 19: 31
                  0
                  Do you even know that China has been ruled by the Kidani since the 10th century? Nomadic people from the same Mongolia, do not disgrace yourself. Read first, write second. Moralist
              2. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 1 November 2020 13: 37
                +2
                chariots with horses
                Are you talking about carts or war chariots?
              3. Engineer
                Engineer 1 November 2020 13: 39
                +1
                Chariots. Combat or parade status
              4. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 1 November 2020 13: 52
                +3
                To be honest, I cannot remember where the appearance of the war chariots was recorded. I would be grateful if you remind me.
              5. Engineer
                Engineer 1 November 2020 13: 56
                +1
                Andronovo circle of cultures
                Although, I probably got excited. Andronovites are rather sedentary, although they are herders
              6. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 1 November 2020 14: 06
                +4
                Thanks! I’ll take an interest.
                The fact is that I believe that war chariots, as a branch of the army, arose in conditions of sedentaryism, as a result of the poor development of horse breeding. That is, the need for mobility on the battlefield was already there, but there were no horses capable of carrying, and not dragging along. However, I have already voiced this idea, although this is only my opinion, not confirmed by anything.
              7. Engineer
                Engineer 1 November 2020 15: 46
                +2
                Development proceeded in parallel, albeit closely interconnected
                A short excursion from Radoslav Gavronsky
                The book "Roman equestrians against the Germanic tribes"
                The first traces of domestication were found in the Botay culture - 5 thousand years ago. There are bit marks on horse skulls. This is earlier than the most ancient chariots among the Andronovites. The Botai did not have chariots. You cannot fish about the combat use of riders.
                The Andronovites had chariots; riding horses appeared much later - the 12th century BC.
                Horse breeding among the Andronovites was at its best practically from the moment of its appearance.
                The descendants of the Andronovites are typical nomads. The same Scythians.
                The Scythians did not have chariots. Some of the horses looked like ponies. Part - on Akhal-Teke

                Concerning the carrying capacity of the horse.
                A small pony horse can carry a rider without armor with light weapons. Moreover, small horses have a very gentle gallop - just what is needed for horse archers
                But if you book a horse archer, it will turn out badly. On reconstructions of equestrian archery in Japan, pony horses simply could not fully gallop with a rider in samurai equipment.
                The Assyrians show horses with an exterior similar to Arab ones. More ponies, but fewer later mounts.
                They also carried a rider in armor and sometimes they themselves carried elements of armor
                In general,
                That is, the need for mobility on the battlefield was already there, but there were no horses capable of carrying, and not dragging along.
                .
                Most scientists seem to agree with this. Something like a horse of the Bronze Age "rode in harness and not under a rider" For small.
                It is not yet possible to refute this concept with a data set.
                We can only note some difficulties:
                Buchen Fortress, Nubia. Egyptian Middle Kingdom. 18-16 centuries BC Found the remains of horses. Before the Hyksos.
                One skeleton of a stallion - 147 cm at the withers and is similar to modern Arab in exterior
              8. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 1 November 2020 15: 55
                +2
                One skeleton of a stallion - 147 cm at the withers and is similar to modern Arab in exterior
                Was he found in the burial?
              9. Engineer
                Engineer 1 November 2020 15: 57
                0
                No. Just in the cultural layer
                This is not a burial ground. Border fortress
              10. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 1 November 2020 16: 00
                +2
                That is, we are talking about the average animal. Well, maybe I'm wrong.
              11. Engineer
                Engineer 1 November 2020 16: 02
                0
                So far, in the light of the available data, they are generally right. Buchen is still a special case. We need more such data and even build relationships.
              12. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 1 November 2020 16: 10
                +1
                Here the matter may also be in the peculiarities of the musculoskeletal system of various breeds and millennia of selection. As with elephants, which have a very weak back, they can only take all the load on the front shoulder girdle.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 1 November 2020 13: 25
    +1
    It was about one and a half, but I would cut it by a couple of centuries.
  • Engineer
    Engineer 1 November 2020 12: 05
    +2
    This is Eurocentrism
    The superiority of nomads in military technology has long been fairly obvious.
    Compound bow, large compound bow, lance with a loop, long cavalry spear, faceted arrows, burning, lasso, saber, stirrup, soft saddle, hard saddle, total armor among the Avars and Turks, the concept of a universal rider - shooter and hand-to-hand fighter, tall horses,
    1. Liam
      Liam 1 November 2020 13: 05
      +1
      Quote: Engineer
      This is Eurocentrism

      This is history. They did not create anything like the Roman Empire in terms of power and influence in ancient times. And even during the period of their greatest power in the Middle Ages they did not advance further than the outskirts of Europe. The Mongols - to Russia, the Turks to the Balkans, the Arabs - to the Pyrenees. their superiority is 6-9 centuries. And then, Byzantium calmly put them in their place
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 1 November 2020 13: 19
        +2
        The Mongol Empire is much larger than the Roman. Though not in ancient times
        Empire is a phenomenon both military and social
        Specifically, the military-technical development of the nomads was at a height.
        Tire bracers, for example, are recorded in Polovtsian burial grounds earlier than in Europe.
        This is one of many examples
        Scythians, Sarmatians, Huns, Avars, Magyars, Bulgarians, Polovtsians, Turks, Mongols. All made a rustle in Europe and Asia and in Byzantium and China. It was they who attacked, penetrated, developed European and sedentary Asian lands, and not vice versa.
        1. Liam
          Liam 1 November 2020 13: 27
          +2
          We're talking about Eurocentrism. The Mongolian Empire is more Roman. But this is cooking in your own boiler, and not at the expense of Europe. Strictly speaking, there was not even half a hectare of Europe. Russia of that period can hardly be attributed to Europe. Rustles in the form of raids are nothing. on the whole, they could not oppose anything serious to Europe, despite the huge numerical advantage.
        2. Engineer
          Engineer 1 November 2020 13: 31
          +2
          You are shifting the initial focus of nomads-sedentary to Europe-Asia. These are two different things.
          Nomads lived in Asia and made the rustle first of all there.
          In general, they could not oppose anything serious to Europe, despite their huge numerical advantage.

          Battle of Legnica, death of the Master of the Teutonic Order.
          And the European brigantine, according to the most common version, is a Mongolian kuyak laughing
        3. Liam
          Liam 1 November 2020 13: 38
          +1
          Quote: Engineer
          You displace

          You raised the topic of Eurocentrism)
          Quote: Engineer
          Battle of Legnica, death of the Master of the Teutonic Order.

          Naturally, the Europeans lost individual battles and even wars to them, but this did not in any way affect global superiority.
          Quote: Engineer
          according to the most common version, this is the Mongolian kuyak

          There is no bar on you)
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 1 November 2020 13: 20
    +3
    The Mongol expansion into Europe was stopped by the death of Ogedei.
    1. Liam
      Liam 1 November 2020 13: 29
      +1
      This is not serious. We are about the centuries-old confrontation of civilizations. The episodes of the death of one khan during one campaign do not play a role. If we would have won stronger both before and after Udegei
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 1 November 2020 13: 35
      +3
      We are talking about the centuries-old confrontation between civilizations.
      Then you need to start with Cain and Abel. An example is also not in favor of settledness.
    3. Liam
      Liam 1 November 2020 13: 41
      +1
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      not in favor of settled

      It is enough to look around: continuous nomadic tribes around the world, as having proved the superiority of their way of life)
    4. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 1 November 2020 13: 46
      +3
      And that is why, "cain" is a common noun and negative concept.
    5. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 1 November 2020 15: 14
      +4
      I think the main advantage of sedentary cultures over nomadic ones is the ability to preserve and accumulate information. It is precisely this that makes it possible for qualitative breakthroughs in scientific and technological revolution.
    6. Liam
      Liam 1 November 2020 16: 10
      +1
      Without literacy, schools, universities, workshops, factories, etc., there can be no scientific and technological revolution. And these are companions of settled life
    7. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 1 November 2020 16: 14
      +3
      So I didn't seem to mind. Although I would argue about medieval European universities. That is still a breeding ground for obscurantism.
    8. Liam
      Liam 1 November 2020 16: 16
      +1
      Why so
    9. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 1 November 2020 17: 36
      +3
      Sorry, generalizations are not appropriate. But in the field of natural sciences - definitely.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 1 November 2020 11: 24
    +4
    Ordinary medieval life. Conspiracies, intrigues, treason, murder, alliances .. smile
    1. Van 16
      Van 16 1 November 2020 12: 38
      +5
      "Do you know what a royal palace is? That's it! Behind the wall, people crush each other, they slaughter their brothers, they choke their sisters ... In a word, everyday life goes on." (An ordinary miracle) smile
  • Ryazan87
    Ryazan87 1 November 2020 11: 47
    +3
    There is some irony in how much effort the Serbian ruler put into the rise of the Ottomans. How to get into the saints, having contributed a lot to centuries of slavery and humiliation of their own people. Moreover, during the reign - a very successful sovereign. Here are just the fruits of his efforts ...
    1. VLR
      1 November 2020 11: 56
      +5
      Stefan Lazarevich is to some extent similar to Alexander Nevsky, who also actively collaborated with the Mongols, suppressed anti-Tatar uprisings, fraternized with Sartak, the son of Batu Khan, and his own son went on military campaigns with the Mongols. And he also became a saint of the Orthodox Church. Our historians have different views on this. Lev Gumilyov fully approved, believing that without an alliance with the Horde, the northeastern principalities would repeat the sad fate of the southern ones - Kiev, Chernigov, Pereyaslavl, which ceased to be subjects of European politics, turning into its objects.
      The rest are shyly silent, or through their teeth they say that this is bad, but Alexander simply had no way out.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 1 November 2020 12: 13
        +3
        that's bad
        This is bad for one reason only. This gave impetus for the insinuations of all kinds of "creative producers" like Fomenko
        1. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 1 November 2020 18: 36
          +1
          Keep away from me. What if you dream and then only Samsonov and Kharluzhny will be on the site? Indeed, both Fomenko and Kharluzhny and Samsonov and Dumas-father use "a real nail to hang clusters of fantasy"
          However, from all of the above, for some reason I like only one. Guess who?
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 1 November 2020 18: 45
            +2
            Of course, Dumas! For, "romanti'c"!
            1. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 1 November 2020 21: 09
              0
              You are right, and the above, especially some, "intellectual disabled"
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 1 November 2020 21: 17
                +2
                Well, not quite. Some have a potential resource for the development of Russian psychiatry.
      2. Engineer
        Engineer 1 November 2020 12: 19
        0
        Our historians have different views on this. Lev Gumilyov fully approved, believing that without an alliance with the Horde, the northeastern principalities would repeat the sad fate of the southern ones - Kiev, Chernigov

        In all that concerns the history of Russia and the West, Gumilyov is not a historian, but a publicist. It is time to finally overcome this "legacy". And send Gumilyov to where he belongs, as specialists in the ancient Turks, for he defended his candidate thesis on this very topic. However, experts and these his works are not particularly fond of.
        There was no alliance with the Horde. The whole management principle was, grab a piece, go to the Horde, get a label. Ours and Lithuanians did this
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 1 November 2020 12: 28
          +3
          To create accents ...
          Denis, do you consider "Hunnu" to be the only work of Gumilyov worth reading, within the framework of general development?
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 1 November 2020 12: 36
            0
            Hunnu, Huns in China, Ancient Turks.
            Was reading. I enjoyed.
            I'm not a specialist, for me there is only one fundamental reproach - little archeology.
            Gumilyov did not like archeology at all, although he himself was at one time an archaeologist. After a quarrel with Artamonov, he seemed to have declared war on archeology in his books, repeatedly calling it the science of the dead.
            According to the Xiongnu, the interpretation of the Kenkol burial grounds is very important. But Bernshtam discovered and described them. And Gumilyov could not stand him. As a result, a whole layer of data was simply ignored.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 1 November 2020 12: 47
              +6
              OK. Got it. I cannot say that I am a fan of Gumilyov, but 30 years ago "Ancient Russia and the Great Steppe" became a revelation. I reread it for 15 years, but my enthusiasm diminished ...
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 1 November 2020 13: 20
                +4
                The first book of Gumilyov, read by me.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 1 November 2020 13: 23
                  +2
                  I actually read only her, "Hunnu", "Ethnogenesis and the biosphere of the Earth".
              2. Astra wild2
                Astra wild2 1 November 2020 18: 26
                -1
                My poet, how do you like Blavatsky? I was immediately shocked, and then ..... pretty quickly lowered her from the balcony
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 1 November 2020 18: 33
                  +3
                  Excuse me, but about like Castaneda. "Psychedelic" drugs do not lead to "expansion of consciousness", but only to cuckoo.
                2. Phil77
                  Phil77 1 November 2020 18: 36
                  +2
                  Quote: Astra wild2
                  pretty quickly lowered her from the balcony

                  Vera, what a resolute lady you are! Both the Blavatsky and your tablets fly from your balcony! How are neighbors? Do they react to such flights * in dreams and in reality *? laughing
                  1. Astra wild2
                    Astra wild2 1 November 2020 21: 15
                    0
                    Blavatsky jumped at me in 2001, and my tablet a month ago.
                    If you are worried about their nerves. I invite you to pull on the clothesline next
          2. Engineer
            Engineer 1 November 2020 12: 47
            0
            By the way, "The Search for a Fictional Kingdom" was translated and published by the Cambridge Press.
            There she was considered an interesting attempt at a cryptoroman disguised as research.
            This is a vivid example of how a writer defeated a scientist in Gumilev
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 1 November 2020 13: 02
              +4
              This is a vivid example of how a writer defeated a scientist in Gumilev
              Heredity... request laughing
  • 41st region
    41st region 1 November 2020 12: 13
    +3
    Thank you for the article.
  • Phil77
    Phil77 1 November 2020 14: 47
    +3
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Not the worst era!

    Yes, and it was ... laughing
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 1 November 2020 15: 27
      +3
      I liked the first viewing very much. And then, for some reason, it didn't work.
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 1 November 2020 16: 32
        +2
        Hi Sergey! I just love the first part. I laugh and laugh, no! -Rzhu! The second? Well, a little worse, but in general, okay. But * Aliens in America * is all. Just everything. bully
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 1 November 2020 16: 45
          +2
          It's a good start. And then he began to figure out the options for such an invasion in our time. Not inspired. Maybe a bore?

          Hello Seryozha!
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 1 November 2020 17: 09
            +2
            Quote: Korsar4
            figure out options

            And I just sit down and watch a funny movie.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 1 November 2020 17: 12
              +1
              It is rare to be able to watch without stopping. This Music can be a background, and that - not always, and not all.
            2. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 1 November 2020 21: 26
              -1
              I "dive" into YouTube when there is time to revise: "Peri Mason", "4 Tankers", Comedy Gaidai, Ult Disney: "" rescuers "my" girlfriend "is in love with Gadget. Makes Puzik to watch, but indifferent
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 1 November 2020 15: 37
      +3
      Another common myth about the Middle Ages! negative
  • vladcub
    vladcub 1 November 2020 17: 17
    +5
    Comrades, I'm not lying to God. I dreamed about Valery. More precisely, I dreamed of a light silhouette and I felt that in the section: "History" there would be high-quality material
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 1 November 2020 18: 16
      +3
      It's time to create this dream book of the XXI century.
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 1 November 2020 18: 32
        +2
        Quote: Korsar4
        It's time to create this dream book of the XXI century.

        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 1 November 2020 18: 56
          +2
          “The cat is sleeping well,
          The cat is dreaming of a cutlet ”(c).
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 1 November 2020 19: 08
            +2
            Quote: Korsar4
            “The cat is sleeping well,
            The cat is dreaming of a cutlet ”(c).

        2. vladcub
          vladcub 1 November 2020 18: 59
          +3
          Sergey, "Phil *, what kind of cat is sitting in the washing machine:" Skripals' cat "hid from VV's dogs?
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 1 November 2020 19: 05
            +1
            Who knows?

            Cats and dogs are an eternal theme.
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 1 November 2020 18: 55
        +3
        I agree, but it will be difficult for one, and therefore co-authors are needed
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 1 November 2020 19: 17
          +2
          No. Let others profit from human naivety.
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 1 November 2020 20: 53
            +1
            Good answer
    2. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 1 November 2020 18: 19
      0
      Then you can do predictions and get rich.
      After all, now there are a lot of gullible ones, however, they have always been, ready to believe in nonsense. What are the different stories about contacts outside of earthly civilization, and spiritualistic seances, and various psychics? On the other hand, she also believed in the "telemag": she wanted to repair the water, the old alarm clock. The father-in-law handed me the Slava alarm clock so that the workshop would take it, and put it in front of the TV, but the alarm clock did not start ticking. Since then, as I hear about various psychics, I immediately remember alarm clocks
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 1 November 2020 18: 24
        +2
        Quote: Astra wild2
        , old alarm clock. The father-in-law handed me an alarm clock "Slava" so that the workshop could take it, and put them in front of the TV, but the alarm clock did not start ticking

        Vera, good evening! And ... how was the father-in-law? Reacted? To this? laughing
        1. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 1 November 2020 21: 32
          -1
          He was fixated on Kashperovsky, I like him too, but soon we had such events that "completely turned the weight of the course of events. However, this is a completely different story" (C)
    3. Phil77
      Phil77 1 November 2020 18: 29
      +4
      Quote: vladcub
      I dreamed of a light silhouette and I felt that in the section: "History" there would be high-quality material

      Oh! The bright image of a historian, but in a dream? I wonder why historians dream of a revolution? laughing
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 1 November 2020 19: 06
        +4
        Ugh on you. I hastened to announce the "good news", and you are some kind of bringing light.
        Maybe this is "the shadow of Hamlet's father", or maybe "The Canterville Ghost"? In any case, good Christians are better off not knowing them.
      2. Hantengri
        Hantengri 1 November 2020 23: 39
        +2
        Quote: Phil77
        Oh! The bright image of a historian, but in a dream? I wonder why historians dream of a revolution?

        Revolution should not be dreamed of by a historian, but by a ghost of Communism, wandering about Europe without a trace.
        By the way, this one in the photo is very similar. But why is he a woman?
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 1 November 2020 17: 42
    +1
    Bayazid's sons decided to leave their father, "but the" loving "sons turned out to be with Bayazid.
    I have two boys: my own son and an adopted one, but I am sure that he will not betray me
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 1 November 2020 17: 58
      +4
      Bravo, My Fair Stranger! My elder is also not native. I raised him and he considers me a father.
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 1 November 2020 21: 34
        0
        There are such MEN
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 1 November 2020 21: 45
          +2
          Thanks! But, I do not consider it a heroism. I married a woman with a child. I did what I could for him. He considers me a father. Dot.
    2. Hantengri
      Hantengri 1 November 2020 23: 08
      +3
      Quote: Astra wild2

      Bayazid's sons decided to leave their father, "but the" loving "sons turned out to be with Bayazid.
      I have two boys: my own son and an adopted one, but I am sure that he will not betray me

      So an apple, under a pear, will never roll. I hope you, unlike Bayezid, did not strangle your brother, just in case? Yes, and the Magnificent Port, you do not own either ...
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 2 November 2020 00: 06
        +3
        Any authority has burdens. Especially in the east.
      2. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 2 November 2020 19: 28
        -2
        I don't remember, I was probably drunk. Anything can happen to a drunk.
        In the next doorway, I got drunk and made the cat pour more.
  • raki-uzo
    raki-uzo 2 November 2020 09: 23
    +1
    Devlet-i Aliye-i Osmaniye (Ottoman Empire) did not forget this tragedy for a long time. When he was at the peak of his strength, when it was possible, when he was rich in all spheres, he did not even look back to see what his old relatives and former enemies in Central Asia were doing. They had no plans to contact them and forget that routine. After the war in 1402, the Ottomans managed to preserve the states, fought among themselves for 11 years and regained their strength. And the state of Timur, after his death, collapsed forever. And they fought among themselves for centuries. The Ottomans at this time were engaged in the west, south, north but not east. When the nationalist movements began in the Balkans, some Ottomans remembered their relatives in Central Asia, but it was too late. The "insidious enemy" of the Ottomans managed to penetrate that territory before them.
  • Diviz
    Diviz 2 November 2020 21: 55
    +1
    Who was Tamerlane hiding. And who was the sultan? They show him on TV.
    1. The most interesting thing about Alexandria is what pushed people to redistribute the world. What information was found in Egypt. ? Book of the Dead, etc.
    2. An alternative history - people smelted arsenic bronze, bronze ended - iron gold. Weapon smelting rate 7%! People, at the loss of health and life, were engaged in hard work. What for? Many questions arise about modern history.
    1. Icelord
      Icelord 3 November 2020 10: 06
      0
      Why are they suddenly hiding it? Here in Tashkent we have a whole museum of Amir Timur, come and educate yourself. True, there is a little embellished. And with Alexandria, everything is simple, who needs these books of the dead. It's just Egypt, the richest and most fertile country, a valuable prize for anyone. That's it and no questions asked
  • Icelord
    Icelord 3 November 2020 10: 02
    0
    Thank you very much, Valery is very interesting. Write more good
  • Isa targim
    Isa targim 5 November 2020 23: 25
    0
    Turks always fight
  • Vsevolod136
    Vsevolod136 8 November 2020 00: 24
    -1
    cool review good
  • Seal
    Seal 20 November 2020 17: 23
    0
    Quote: Proxima
    Under the Macedonian, Rome as a power did not yet exist, but an ordinary state existed, which could not attract the attention of Alexander in any way.


    About coming to Rome

    Alexander, however, declined to Rome. Hearing the same Romans Alexander Idusha to them and confused and co-created. “Yes, let’s do it,” rekosha, “whether we should have goodness to Alexander in Rome with many honors and gifts, and on fatherly statutes and towns, mercy invincible to the law of being.” But to his god Amon in the church of the tributary, I pray to proclaim them of Alexander. In the dream appear to them God Amon, a speech: “Men of Romans, do not be afraid of Alexander — my son is; when I came to Macedonia, his mother Alimpiyad became impurity and Alexander was born; but in honor of his mercy, bow to the tsar and glorify the autocracy. "
    The Romans, with honor and great glory, are wondrous, byashe their comparison is marvelous: 4 thousand of his crowned knights on the parish and 2 thousand maidens of his midst, the robes of scarlet gold are knitted on them. And other people 1000 and 40; All I wear is Dafin's relationship with gold. The priests of the romancy are his own, carrying great candles in their hands. When he went out to him, wearing a robe of great and valuable value, Solomon, king of the Hebrews, and like them put Nabhodnezzar, king of Persia, when he received Jerosalim. Bringing him a dish of self-made 1000 and 200 with a valuable stone, Solomon placed the king in the church, the Holy of Holies, and the crown of Solomon, in it there are three stones byah, 12 heals from him, and 1000 other stones - according to the number of the sons of Israel. Having worn out to him a stem of the royal gold, the many-value Sibyl of the magical queen. Having familiarized him with Paris under the Khakism of Korkodilov, she was saddled with a saddle from the stone of Andraman. Having worn out to him the weapon of Elgameneush the king; wearing him a copy of the lanpandil with beads and a multi-piece stone Yaksha Telomonika and other copies 17; having worn out to him the shield of Tarknen, the king of Rome, they were taken down with the skin of an asp. This glorious pratice Tsar Alexander vidѣv, joyful being velmi and honorably dressing up many of his warriors, the Macedonians with him on horseback, on Duchipal's horse, everywhere, and put the coruna on your head to Cleopatra the Egyptian queen, 12 many stones in German; the horses of the podvony and the trumpets were dressed up in the likeness, on the way of the Roman idosh.
    Blizu the former, knights and girls bowed to Alexander, with horses not sѣdosh and rekosh: "A lot of lѣta, to Tsar Alexandra, all the holy to the Tsar"; and behold, to the land of otkhash, friends came and glorified him; and all from the horses ssѣdosh and glorified Tsar Alexander. For this reason, the priests came with saints and censers and gave him various stinks. And so, having fun in the city of Rome, he came and brought him to the temple of his god Apolon to worship. Wed Priest Apolonov, and leave him, and bow down to him, and bring him gold, and Lebanon, and I will be put to death, this is the essence of the royal gifts. Having worn him out the scripture, the property is titled: “In the summer of 5000 he will have a unicorn goat and will marry the Western and exalted Pardus and packs to the east of the loide, and also the two-horned ram, who rose to heaven, and this one horn in the heart. And midi and dates will shake, in the east great and terrible heathens, and the edge of the sword of the feather will dull and, having come to Rome, the king has made a glorious man, and at this time he has received all Jerosalim without any mischief and ratification. "

    And so on. Serbian Alexandria, which was a highly popular and official version of history in the Middle Ages, but was pushed aside an alternative version that Alexander did not take Rome.
  • Seal
    Seal 20 November 2020 17: 29
    0
    Interesting "portraits". That's probably just how people live on them wink