Military Review

Was it possible to save the destroyers of Project 956? Need to!

224

What's better? Photo for memory…



... or a real combat ship in service?

The fate of the Project 956 destroyers in our Navy today is no secret to anyone who is even slightly interested in naval issues. But even in the chaos of the post-Soviet years, everything could have gone differently. There have been positive examples of how these ships were kept in service.

From an interview with the commander of the North fleet Admiral G. A. Suchkov, 2004:

At Sevmash, we repaired the Fearless destroyer. For three years, in debt. The plant went to meet us, and we will pay off with it during this and 2005. But we have a destroyer.
And in 2000, the destroyer Rastoropny was delivered for repairs at Severnaya Verf in St. Petersburg. More precisely, they put two, one of which was quickly written off there, and they plan to return Rastoropny to us already in 2010. Despite the fact that in Severodvinsk the cost of repairs rose to us at 280 million rubles, and at "Severnye Verfy" - 470 million rubles. Who is behind this?

Today, the Fearless destroyer is named Admiral Ushakov and is the only running destroyer in the Northern Fleet.

Could other ships have been dealt with in similar ways? Nobody even checked this.

Kicked horses are shot


Two very illustrative examples that very well describe the difference between the approaches that were actually shown in our country, and others, not ours.

Example № 1:

Kaliningrad, May 13, 2018 / TASS /. Sea tugs of the Baltic Fleet have driven the destroyer Bespokoiny from Baltiysk, the main base of the Baltic Fleet in the Kaliningrad region, to Kronstadt, where it will become a floating exhibit of the Patriot Park's marine branch, Fleet spokesman Roman Martov told reporters on Sunday.



The destroyer "Restless" in the "Patriot" park in Kronstadt ...

To understand all the shame and shame of what happened, it is necessary to emphasize that in order to extend the service life of the ships of the USSR Navy, the service life of main cable routes is very acute, i.e. year the ship was built. At the same time, all large anti-submarine ships (BOD) of project 1155, missile cruisers (RRC) of project 1164, which are in the Navy's combat composition, have a service life longer than the destroyer "Restless", which entered the Navy in 1992 and was sent to the fleet. No comment.

By the way, the former commander of "Restless", Rear Admiral VA Tryapichnikov, is now the head of the Naval Shipbuilding Directorate.

As of today, three Project 956 destroyers remain formally (in a very problematic technical state) in the Navy's combat composition: Rapid in the Pacific Fleet, Admiral Ushakov in the Northern Fleet, and Persistent in the Baltic (does not go out to sea).

31.03.2018/25/2. The flagship of the Baltic Fleet, the destroyer Nastoichivy, is XNUMX years old. In the near future, the ship's crew is preparing to go to sea to work out the elements of the course task (K-XNUMX). In the naval ranges of the Baltic Fleet, the crew of the "Nastoichivny" will have to carry out artillery and rocket firing, conduct air defense exercises, and also work out anti-submarine missions.
Department of information support of the Baltic region (Kaliningrad).

However, the "Persistent" could not get out into the sea ... "Restless" went to the park. Actually, the very presence of destroyers in the Baltic Fleet (as well as the “crowd” of corvettes) raises the question of the adequacy of the operational planning of the Navy for its intended purpose, because even without questions (without an answer) of combat support, these ships can be hit right at the berths by long-range enemy artillery.


Destroyers of the Baltic Fleet in Baltiysk. Waiting for Polish shells ...

Example # 2. In 2019, the upgraded (since 2015) destroyer of Project 956E "Hangzhou" of the PLA Navy entered sea trials (instead of the beam launcher of the Shtil air defense system, vertical launchers of the HHQ-16 air defense system were installed, the HHQ-10 air defense system launcher appeared, instead of Anti-ship missiles "Moskit-E" deployed new anti-ship missiles YJ-12A). The second destroyer Fuzhou is undergoing a similar upgrade.


Taking into account the deployed PLA Navy "ship conveyor", the attitude towards the ships of Project 956 (two projects 956E and two projects 956ME) is indicative.


Four PLA destroyers (projects 956E and 956ME)

The Chinese have a fundamentally caring attitude even to old ships (an example of which is our first destroyers of the very problematic 7U project, which for a long time were part of the PLA Navy, and now some of them are preserved as a monument), but the question and the meaning of the article are not in them, but in the Russian Navy.

Was it possible (and was it necessary) to preserve and modernize the destroyers of Project 956?

If it turned out to be an extremely expensive modernization of Marshal Shaposhnikov and other much older and more problematic ships of Project 1155, then with regard to the 956 destroyers the answer should have been "yes." Yes, not all ships, but only the newest.

But nevertheless, such modernization did not take place.

Often this is "blamed" for the steam turbine (PTU) main power plant (GEM) of destroyers.

The alleged problem of a steam turbine main power plant


In 1995, the author heard the phrase "the horses are being driven to shoot" in the previous heading at the 7th operational squadron of the Northern Fleet in response to a question about the reasons for the extremely difficult technical condition of all the destroyers of the squadron.


Destroyer "Fast" (Pacific Fleet). A clear state of his KTU. Photo: press-tof @

Before falling down with my heart, many of our destroyers managed to run very, very many miles. For example, the operating time of the boilers of the head destroyer "Sovremenny" at the time of putting into repair (decommissioning) was about 25 thousand hours for each boiler. An even more striking example is the destroyer "Otlichny", which passed 8 miles in 150 years of active operation (for comparison: Peter the Great had only 535 miles on the lag in 17 years).

In the course of combat service in 1986 in conditions of high water and air temperatures, "Excellent" effectively won the race against two gas turbine ships of the US Navy KR URO CG48 Yorktown and EM DD970 Caron.


"Excellent" takes fuel from BMT "Ivan Bubnov" in the Mediterranean Sea, 1986

The examples given show that the matter was not in the reel after all ...

Yes, in the situation of the 90s. the issues of operation of ships with steam turbine installations at high parameters arose very acutely. It is acute both in the training of personnel (especially in the urgent service), and in the repair and water treatment. Alas, the Navy used, to put it mildly, not all of its capabilities.

For example, in the 90s, a lot of nuclear submarines with an unexploited resource of active zones and power plants were withdrawn from the Navy. And nothing prevented the "boiling" of feed water for steam-turbine surface ships with a guaranteed supply of their needs. As a matter of fact, they did this on submarines (with a destroyed coastal supply system), a "unit" (submarine) was started up in order to provide the rest of the nuclear-powered ships with high-purity water.

Given the large resource of the zones of decommissioned submarines, this did not require any additional costs for the fleet. However, not a single such case is known for surface ships, as if our submariners and surface watermen served in different fleets ...


We are not the only ones who can smoke. In the photo, the frigate LCS of the US Navy (with a gas turbine power plant)

Yes, the use of a boiler and turbine plant on a modern warship is an outdated solution. But quite working! And due to production reasons at the time of the decision. Production reasons for the problematic issues of the main power plants of ships, our modern shipbuilding tasted to the fullest. Especially after 2014, the time of the actual loss of the Ukrainian enterprise Zorya-Mashproekt (gas turbine units and gearboxes). The issue of not only new ships (projects 11356 and 22350), but also the possibility of operating previously built ships with gas turbine installations (projects 1135, 11540, 1155, 1164, 1166) has become extremely acute. Continuation of active operation in that situation BOD project 1155 simply "killed" their resource.

Was it technically possible to restore the destroyers' KTU (last hulls)? Yes, of course: the steam turbine units themselves had a very significant resource, and problematic boilers could be replaced with modern KVG-3D (as for the Indian aircraft carrier Vikramaditya), with the replacement of fuel oil with diesel fuel. There was free money in the country in 2014 ...

Moreover, such a decision would have prompted an adequate repair and modernization of the TAVKR "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov". In the current reality, with the traditional triviality of the Navy, they decided to "save money" by replacing only 4 emergency boilers ... left 4 others (old), decided not to replace fuel from fuel oil with diesel. A year later, they decided to change all the boilers, but the first 4 were already purchased for fuel oil. I had to take 4 others with fuel oil ... Accordingly, with the entry into the Navy of "Kuznetsov" we get a situation when the ships of the same formation use different fuel. Given the Navy's tanker problems, this is an amazing solution. Save on matches!


Ships BF: destroyer "Persistent" and TFR "Pylky" guarded by TAVKR, BS. 1996 year

At the same time, there are unreliable statements that supposedly these ships are so outdated that their modernization does not make sense. It's worth dealing with this.

Problematic TTZ and weak air defense


TTZ for the design of a fire support ship for the landing of the Navy issued to the Northern PKB in 1971. That is, initially these were artillery ships with the main task of supporting the landing. In the process of development and creation, the project received high-speed and anti-jamming anti-ship missiles Moskit and the M-22 Uragan collective defense air defense system (however, very controversial in terms of the concept of construction).

Was it possible to save the destroyers of Project 956? Need to!

At the same time, the ships had a single surveillance radar, extremely weak anti-submarine weapons and a single helicopter in a movable hangar, which, taking into account the displacement, which had increased to "cruising", raised questions ...

The detection of air targets was provided by the general detection radar "Fregat" (hereinafter in the series - "Fregat-M" and "Fregat-MA (2)"), which was also the target designation radar of the M-22 "Uragan" air defense missile system (with the provision of "illumination" for passive radar homing heads of missiles (PRLGSN missiles) assigned to defeat targets with special radio searchlights). A serious drawback of the ship was the presence of only one surveillance radar (moreover, the decimeter range, which is not optimal for detecting low-flying anti-ship missiles) and the absence of a CIUS.


Radio searchlight illumination "Nut" and TV set target tracking SAM M-22.

The lack of only one radar was corrected only on the latest ships of the series, which were exported to China, by installing a radar for the Positiv command module and two combat modules of the Kashtan near-line anti-aircraft complex (ZKBR) with artillery and missiles.


Project 956ME destroyer with enhanced air defense - ZKBR "Kashtan" with two combat modules and one command module (additional general detection radar "Positive")


The destroyer and the main threat. From the air ...

However, Russian destroyers had problems with air defense, and very serious ones.

From the memoirs of the officer of the Missile and Artillery Armament Directorate of the Navy, Captain I Rank V.K. Pechatnikov:

The concept of building a complex with no means of tracking the target nevertheless prevailed, or rather, it was pushed by shipbuilders: they just had to place light and small-sized illumination projectors and did not have to rack their brains with placing an additional location of the complex. This circumstance has always been the subject of rejection of the complex by the naval structures. To be honest, at first I did not see a big sin in this, being a native of the winged theme, where launching towards the target, even in the absence of any contact with it, was a common thing. Then, however, when it became necessary to introduce a new missile 9M38M1, and later its subsequent modifications, these funds became simply vital, but the logic of building the system no longer allowed them to be built in painlessly .... but the lack of its own target tracking stations in the complex ... then became a big stumbling block.
In addition, the lead ship of Project 956 "Sovremenny" was launched, which should have been armed with the M-22 air defense system. We reported to the commander-in-chief of the Navy that, by changing the ideology of building the complex in order to fully use the capabilities of the rocket, we can freeze the program for building new ships for 4-5 years. Having found out that even under the previous ideology the complex is 5-6 times more productive than the existing "Volna-M", the commander-in-chief decided to leave everything as it is with subsequent modernization.
If I knew then that there would be no more upgrades, perhaps they would agree with the delay or partial arming of the ships ...
According to the plan, we had to take the air defense system into service until 1980, in which the Sovremenny destroyer had already surrendered to the fleet. Of course, we did not have time: the complex did not want to shoot down low-altitude targets. In addition, one feature came to light: firing a salvo of cruise missiles coming from one direction sharply reduced the likelihood of defeat. The main parameter of the TTZ was practically not met. The missile seeker, opening at the top of the trajectory, began to direct the missile to the energy center of the targets and only as it approached it switched to tracking the nearest target ... But since the concept of further upgrades had already been adopted, they decided to leave everything as it is.


Conclusions on the combat effectiveness of Project 956 destroyers


The strike complex with the Moskit anti-ship missile was great. True, for carriers such as an airplane or boat. Alas, for a ship of almost cruising displacement, an operational missile system was openly requested, with an appropriate "long arm" (range).


Launch of anti-ship missiles "Moskit" by the destroyer "Bystry" (Pacific Fleet)

To characterize the artillery capabilities of the ship (two highly automated AK-130 artillery complexes) for the main purpose, it is best to quote an ex-officer of the Pacific Fleet (on the Courage forum):

In 2000, they practiced a war in the seaside direction with the 5th army. The groundmen spent a week building a company stronghold. After receiving the control center from the correction post, after 5 minutes, horns and legs remained from the ROP. The shooting was carried out by pr. 956 board 778 2 AU AK-130, the rate of fire is maximum. The ROP was at a distance of 3 km from the coast. The minimum firing range was 20 km. The chief of staff and chief of artillery of the army were delighted.
The ship is given 5 minutes to apply an artillery gun against a coastal target, while it continuously moves in an anti-artillery zigzag, shoots and jamming.
Regarding the range, I agree (not enough), but there is little comfort in the fact that it is hard for coastal artillerymen to shoot at a maneuvering target, which is able to dump you almost 3 tons of land mines in a minute ...

Well, anti-submarine weapon (4 torpedoes SET-65 in two twin-tube torpedo tubes and RBU-1000 for anti-torpedo protection) with the sickly GAS Platina was frankly weak.


DTA-53-956 torpedo tubes for SET-65 torpedoes.



RBU-1000

The only helicopter for a ship of almost cruising displacement was also not a source of pride (though the larger project 1164 RRC had the same).

At first glance, the conclusions for the 956 project are devastating.

However, if you look closely, it becomes obvious that the 956 is just one of the examples of serious conceptual shortcomings of literally all 3rd generation ships of the USSR Navy (in the most striking form this manifested itself in the development of the next generation destroyer, with devastating criticism by the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy S.G. Gorshkov. organizations of the Navy).

SAM "Fort-M"? Several examples of not always successful shooting them.

For exercises (with practical rocket firing) 2011:

According to "Varyag", for him RTOs started up 2 RM P-120 The "Fort" air defense missile system did not work, whether it works or not, it is difficult to say, it was possible to let a cloud of RM in Feodosia, when it was tested on the Azov BPK, personal opinion is ambiguous, although coastal work perfectly.


That is, we see serious systemic problems of the Navy, in which the shortcomings of individual projects are a special case.

Obviously, these problems had to be solved comprehensively (and the task is quite technically solvable) on the scale of the fleet, and accordingly the issue of "problem projects" is in the plane of their optimal modernization.

Export alternative


In the conditions of practically "zeroing" of the naval shipbuilding program after the December 1991 event, export became the salvation for the domestic shipbuilding. Moreover, it began with the supply of large surface warships of new projects back in the USSR, for example, the construction of a series of Project 61ME destroyers for the Indian Navy.

In the early 90s. A program for the creation of export frigates of Project 11356 and Indian destroyers of Project 15 (with significant Russian design assistance and the supply of combat systems) began to be implemented at domestic shipyards.


Launch of SAM ZKBR "Kashtan" by the frigate Talwar project 11356 (first series)

The Indian customer harshly raised the issue of including an effective collective defense air defense system in the composition of these ships, while the export "Rif" (our "Fort-M") obviously did not pass under weight and size restrictions.

As a result, on the basis of the Uragan air defense missile system, on the basis of a promising groundwork and plans for its modernization, in a short time, an actually new Shtil-1 air defense missile system was created, initially with a beam launcher from Uragan, and later with a new vertical launcher for new missiles with increased range 9M317ME (first presented abroad at the EURONAVAL-2004 show).


Advertising leaflet for air defense missile system "Shtil-1" with UVP NPP "Start" (Yekaterinburg)

Here it is necessary to note the creation by the St. Petersburg "Meridian" of the BIUS "Requirement" series for the ships of the Indian Navy. This work began in the late 80s. (that is, even before the start of work on projects 11356 and 15), had several stages and ultimately led to the creation of a "maximum" version of the BIUS "Requirement-M" for Russian frigates of project 11356, ensuring the use of incl. SAM with active radar seeker (ARGSN).

Subsequently, on the basis of the "Shtil-1" groundwork and a vertical-launch missile defense system, the Chinese Navy was already created (with large Russian participation) the HHQ-16 air defense system.


UVP SAM HHQ-16 on the PLA frigate of Project 054A

The total number of foreign ships with the Shtil-1 / HHQ-16 air defense system is impressive.

Indian Navy:
- 3 destroyers of the Delhi class, pr. 15, built in India, entered service in 1997-2001. - two single-girder launchers (48 missiles);
- 6 frigates of the Talvar type, pr. 11356 (construction of the series continued), built in Russia, entered service in 2003-2004. (the first three) and in 2012-2013. - one single-girder PU (24 missiles);
- 3 frigates of the "Shivalik" type, pr. 17, built in India, entered service in 2010-2012. - one single-girder PU (24 missiles).

Chinese Navy:
- 4 destroyers of project 956E / EM, built in Russia, entered service in 1999-2000 (first two) and 2005-2006. - two single-girder launchers (48 missiles);
- 2 destroyers of 052В type, built in China, entered service in 2004, - two single-beam launchers (48 missiles);
- 30 frigates of the 054A type, built in China, have been commissioned since 2008 (4 ships under testing + 2 under construction) - WPU of the Chinese version of "Calm" - HHQ-16 (32 missiles).

A total of 48 ships of the Indian and Chinese navies.


Note: the far border of the affected area is different for various modifications of the "Calm" and can be 24, 32 and 50 km

A modernization that never happened


The beginning of 2014, a coup in Ukraine. The Russian Navy receives a "knockdown" in the form of a refusal to supply gas turbine power plants for new ships and repair old ones. At the same time, the sharp exacerbation of the military-political situation sharply raises the question of the real combat effectiveness of the armed forces and the Navy (Navy ships).

As mentioned above, replacement of boilers and repair of KTU, while ensuring proper operation, made it possible to actively and intensively operate the repaired destroyers (including in the far and ocean zones).

At the same time, new equipment, weapon systems made it possible to revise the entire concept of Project 956 with the creation of effective multipurpose ships in the process of modernization.

The presence of serial air defense systems "Shtil-1", radars ("Fregat-MA" and "Positive"), BIUS "Requirement" made it possible to dramatically increase the efficiency of the ships' air defense. In the situation of 2014, it was completely completed and had significant reserves for the modernization and development of the air defense system, with eliminated the shortcomings of the Hurricane. Do not forget that in 2014 the new air defense system of the Navy "Poliment-Redut" (Project 22350 frigates) was in a state that was very far from combat capability ...

The problematic issue was short-range air defense systems. All proposals of the industry in this area (SAM "Redut" with SAM 9M100, "Tor-FM", "Pantsir-M") had some serious shortcomings (more details: "Corvettes that will go into battle"), but drawbacks to be solved.

Taking into account the unambiguous priority of radio command control systems for short-range air defense systems, the optimal solution would be comparative tests of the Tora-FM and Pantsir-M, developed on the initiative, on various ships of the Navy, followed by a decision on their results. In this case, one could be sure that "Shell" and "Thor" would have a significantly different, much more effective appearance and capabilities today.

Removing the main task from the ships - fire support, made it possible to obtain multipurpose ships on their basis with the replacement of the AK-130 stern artillery mount with the UKSK missiles of the "Caliber" and "Onyx" complex (3x8, as in one of the development variants of the 956 project).


Ut and aft gun mount AK-130


One of the options for the development of Project 956 with the UKSK for "Caliber" and "Onyx" (instead of the aft AK-130) and 4 combat modules of the ZKBR "Kortik" (with the removal of the "Mosquito" launch complex)

In the stern of it, the towed active-passive GAS "Minotavr" normally stood up, while the broadband GAS "Platina-M" made it possible to ensure joint work with the BUGAS "Minotavr-ISPN". That is, the composition of hydroacoustic means is obtained close to those envisaged for the promising project of the Navy 20386. In terms of the capabilities of detecting submarines, such a composition of hydroacoustic means unambiguously surpassed the SJSC Polynom (due to the use of a lower frequency range), except for the bow sector, but it was easily compensated by the joint work of a pair of ships.

Of course, the 53 cm torpedo tubes had to be changed to the "Package", and this was absolutely real.

It is of interest to compare such a frankly "budgetary" modernization of a destroyer (technical could have done a lot better) with the modernized BOD "Marshal Shaposhnikov" of Project 1155 ("Defective modernization of" Marshal Shaposhnikov ").


Modernization of the BOD "Marshal Shaposhnikov". Photo: https://forums.balancer.ru/

Table. Comparison of the hypothetical version of the modernization of the destroyers of Project 956 and BOD of Project 1155 ("Marshal Shaposhnikov"):


It is easy to see that the modernized multipurpose 956 looks much more balanced and more armed than the modernized 1155 project. Option "956 mod", with the replacement of only one SAM (ie 36 UVP SAM "Shtil-1"), but the placement of the second helicopter, while viewed more preferable.

It must be emphasized that technically, such a modernization was absolutely real, all the specified weapons were serial, there were no problems with supplies. Accordingly, "Burny", "Bystry", "Admiral Ushakov", "Persistent" and "Restless", and possibly the newest one at the Pacific Fleet "Bezboyaznenny" (1990), could find a second life. At the same time, the destroyers from the Baltic clearly needed to be removed, with the formation of homogeneous ship formations at the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet.

That is, for relatively moderate costs (the obvious cost of such a modernization is much less than what happened at Shaposhnikov), the Navy could get in 2017-2018. 5-6 relatively modern and fully combat-ready "first ranks" with the possibility of their maximum active use (including in the far and oceanic zone) for 10 years (until 2027-2028). Unlike ships with gas turbines (projects 1155 and 11540), new boilers and a significant resource of the PTU made it possible to walk intensively without convulsive counting of the remaining power plant resource.

Time, alas, is gone


And if the fleet is still trying to save the ships of the project 1155, then the destroyers have already put an end to them. Time for their modernization has been lost. Taking into account the fact that a series of new ships of Project 22350 has already started, there is no sense in investing in these old ships today. If we hypothetically assume that a decision will be made now, then its implementation, taking into account the specifics of budget financing, will begin no earlier than 2021, ship repairs will take 3-4 years (in fact, much more), i.e. ships will come out of this repair with modernization in the years 2024-2025 ... Moreover, the newest 956 was adopted by the Navy in 1993, i.e. at the time of 2024 he will be 31 years old. Ten years after an average repair is at least 41 years for the ship, but this already requires an unambiguous replacement of the main cable routes (which dramatically increases the cost and terms of repair).

A completely different situation was in 2014, when, with a timely decision, 4-6 destroyers could actually get a second life, and a very active one. Even "Burny" (in the Navy since 1988), leaving the factory in 3 years (2017), could well serve for another 10 years, until 2027, without any large-scale replacement of trunk cables. And this is even more true for the five newer ships ("Ushakov" ("Fearless"), "Persistent", "Fast", and possibly "Fearless").

Main lessons of the 956 project


First. The Navy needs, if not the most innovative, but actually working and effective technical and tactical solutions. The pursuit of a crane in the sky often ends with a broken trough.

Second. At the forefront of the development and use of the fleet should be real combat effectiveness.

Third. In a situation when the fleet sends relatively new ships to the park, the society has a logical question: haven't our admirals played with ships? Requiring huge funding for new ships of the Navy, is it capable of ensuring their normal operation, modernization during service and effective use in battle?

A decent death for ships


Well-deserved, efficient and well-served ships must go to patriotic parks. Ships that you can be proud of, like, for example, the Smetlivy TFR. This ship is really a part Stories (with a capital letter) The Soviet Navy, the great confrontation of the Cold War.

The same thing that was done with the destroyer "Restless" is stupid, not funny and shameful. At the same time, a worthy result of the service could be found for him.


Utilization of Project 956 destroyers in SRZ-35, settlement of Rosta

And this is not cutting into needles, but, for example, testing modern weapons of the Navy on it. And as an example here, we, alas, the US Navy, which does not just use old ships as targets, such firing has a pronounced research character, all reports on which, of course, the US Navy is tightly secret (with a minimum of details for the media).


US Navy SINKEX trials with the sinking of a Spruance-class destroyer

Such events have not been carried out in our fleet for many decades, despite the fact that new anti-ship missiles with a sharply reduced mass of warheads are being adopted for service, the issues of the real effectiveness of which on large ships are acute.

Last thing. Two fresh photos.

Two destroyers of projects 956E (modernized) and 956ME in the exercises of the Eastern Fleet of the PLA, October 2020 (source: "Live Journal" dambiev).


And the "newest" destroyer of the Pacific Fleet "Bezofaznenny" (adopted by the Navy in December 1990). "Fearless" at the last pier (October 2020).


Only one and older "Bystry" remains in the PF combat strength.

Do we draw any conclusions from all this? The question is open ...
Author:
224 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. prapor55
    prapor55 30 October 2020 06: 21
    +8
    It's sad that, as always, the guilty won't be found.
    1. And Makarov
      And Makarov 30 October 2020 06: 41
      40
      But many who have made sabotage decisions are now "in positions", and not only in the Navy.
      1. Severok
        Severok 1 November 2020 23: 02
        -1
        All pests, criminals from the authorities, traitors to the country's interests are always heard by the official media, always after another act of betrayal they receive orders and promotions. The most important pests are Putin, Medvedev, Nabiulin, Siluanov, Matvienka and others who have settled in Moscow as a legion. And it will not work to uproot this Caudle without a national movement, and yes, without violating the laws that they wrote so as not to get what they deserve, it will not work either.
    2. Charik
      Charik 30 October 2020 10: 58
      +8
      and what to look for them, there they are all in directors and on TV
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 30 October 2020 22: 01
        +1
        to sit until retirement, and there the grass does not grow at least.
        And the grass grows and the pension drips, and 956 is no longer needed
  2. mark1
    mark1 30 October 2020 06: 22
    23
    It was possible to save, but no one was going to save, openly sabotage activities were carried out. Let us recall the destruction of "Sharks", the leasing of boats of the 971 project, "Bark, drawing up completely unreal shipbuilding programs, such as 30" Ash "and, as a consequence, the curtailment of the construction of the same 971st Ave," Uran "," Onyx "," Caliber "- all these Soviet developments (yes, and the" Caliber "legs from Soviet times) were tightened as much as possible when put into service.
    1. Dante Alighieri
      Dante Alighieri 30 October 2020 07: 58
      22
      There were a lot of options for upgrading the 956. In the presence of inclined versions of the ZS-14, welding work in general could be minimized, limiting itself to only embedding Calm cells. But upstairs it was not interesting, but some Mistral is another matter. And this despite the fact that, if desired, from the same Krechetov it was possible to make quite a decent UDC. True, they had already been sold by that time ...

      As for the GEM, I would like to argue with the author about how truly modern the KVG-3D, implemented in the former Baku (Vikramaditya), are. Yes, at the end of the 90s - the beginning of the 2000s, it was quite a good option for introducing automation and converting the KVG-3 boilers already mastered by the industry to a new type of fuel, which made it possible to improve their technical and operational characteristics quite well. However, science did not stop there. In our country, the next generation of boilers of this type, KVG6, KVG6M and KVG6M-1, also operating on diesel fuel, but having even higher quality indicators and an even greater degree of automation, was developed, which made it possible to further reduce the impact of the notorious human factor. The only drawback of these units is their high cost, which is typical for all new solutions. However, as they "enter the series", the price tag for these products would have been further sequestered, and therefore ultimately (provided that during the modernization of esm. 956 and Kuznetsov, preference would have been given to these boilers), the total cost of the boilers was 15-25% (as advertised by JSC SKBK) would have exceeded the cost of a similar order for KVG-3D. Considering the need for parallel modernization of the assembly line by the enterprise, this does not seem to be such a huge amount. And most importantly, this is all that this enterprise has always been and continues to be on the territory of Russia, and therefore, in the conditions of inaccessibility of the power plant and gearboxes of Ukrainian production, this could become a real panacea for our fleet until the start of serial production of new ships of the ocean class (the beginning of which we still have not seen).

      ps Today, the cruisers of project 1164 are in dire need of modernization, but no progress has been observed in this direction either (Marshal Ustinov does not count: he was essentially reanimated, radio equipment and jamming equipment were updated, however, there was no change in the composition of weapons, even target illumination radar 3P41, has not been replaced by a modern phased-digital analogue). So, I'm afraid that the entire Soviet legacy to one degree or another will have to repeat the fate of the esm. 956.
    2. KCA
      KCA 30 October 2020 08: 27
      11
      "Caliber" is a Soviet "Granat", naturally, modernized and with the possibility of using conventional warheads, "Granat" was only under the TABC
      1. Borik
        Borik 30 October 2020 16: 40
        +2
        It is a pity that the destroyers were good. But the 90s without proper funding hit them very hard. And the main thing that killed this type of destroyers was the boiler-turbine installation. Perhaps if there were decent funding for the fleet, then a certain number of ESM 956 would have served until the twenties. And with the modernization it is also 10-15 longer.

        And yet, the author here was a little mistaken with the destroyers that the USSR transferred to China in the 50s. He writes that Project 7U destroyers were transferred to China. But it never happened at Pacific Fleet 7U. So, the destroyers of Project 7 were transferred to China.
  3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 30 October 2020 06: 27
    +4
    Sadly though! request
    Good day to everyone, Kote!
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 30 October 2020 06: 33
      20
      the fleet, simply destroyed, there were "funny regiments". Peter, the bosses would have chopped off, personally, to our "effectively-defectively" managers.
      1. Local from the Volga
        Local from the Volga 30 October 2020 22: 57
        -9
        when are you going to die ?!
  4. Snail N9
    Snail N9 30 October 2020 06: 28
    21
    What kind of "modernization"? There are yachts for "effective managers" and "successful entrepreneurs" from Russia the size of an aircraft carrier of the WWII period, they do not have time to leave the stocks of Western companies - this is what a country that has all the gold reserves resources stored "in the west" and work "to the west" needs, and here, about some kind of there, "modernization" ....- "only if" according to the residual principle "... yes
    1. unknown
      unknown 30 October 2020 11: 21
      +7
      And the US colony is no longer needed.
    2. Volder
      Volder 30 October 2020 18: 51
      -1
      Quote: Snail N9
      Won yachts for "effective managers" and "successful entrepreneurs" from Russia, the size of an aircraft carrier of the WWII period
      In order not to be unfounded and not to shake the air, do not forget to give specific names and names of yachts.
      1. marat2016
        marat2016 2 November 2020 08: 40
        0
        https://go.mail.ru/redir?type=sr&redir=eJzLKCkpsNLXLy8v10tJzNFLqtTPSy0v1je01De00DU00AWSpvoMDIZmBibGFgamFsYMKeeifYy5Dx94JBfvH7jrTgYAlVUUlQ&src=5287dd0&via_page=1&user_type=44&oqid=e7e589babe07d7f6
        1. Volder
          Volder 2 November 2020 22: 04
          0
          What is typical for such "yellow" publications is confusion in terms of "displacement" and "gross tonnage" (gross tonnage). Gross tonnage is measured in register tonnes. For example, Alisher Usmanov's yacht Dilbar has a gross tonnage of 15000 tons, a displacement of about 4500 tons, and a cost of $ 600 million. At the same time, the Russian frigate 22350 of the "Admiral Gorshkov" type has a displacement of 5400 tons, and costs 450 million dollars. The largest yachts in the world are owned by the sheikhs of Saudi Arabia, but their navy has nothing larger than American-built frigates. In general, such comparisons are nonsense. Yachts are needed for luxury, and warships are for war. 1 Soviet-built missile boat can sink the world's largest and most expensive yacht.
  5. Doccor18
    Doccor18 30 October 2020 06: 31
    13
    I can not calmly look at the rusting ships, which still walk and walk ...
    Of course, it was necessary to upgrade the destroyers of the 956 series. And for this, since in the 90s there were no funds, it was necessary to put the ships in safe storage. It would also cost money, but not the same as in operation.
    And in the fat-rich 2000s, it was possible with 10 of these combat units to be brought into combat form. With the replacement of the air defense system, the demolition of the aft AU and the construction of a helicopter hangar ...
    But we are vigorously disarming ...
  6. tlauicol
    tlauicol 30 October 2020 06: 34
    +4
    IMHO the very concept of heavy supersonic missiles has spoiled many ship projects for many years. As a result: limited ammunition and autonomy, modest air defense capabilities. In the narrowness, the island area and on bl. there is little sense in the distance, but it has not been decided for long distance.
    1. timokhin-aa
      30 October 2020 09: 24
      14
      It was at 956 that both anti-ship missiles were without fanaticism, and their reconnaissance systems for attacking NK were more or less at the level. On the NK attack, the ship was more than good.
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 30 October 2020 14: 15
        -1
        Well, my dear Alexander .... since you are the author's confidant, you will have to write to you.
        After reading to ...
        In a situation when the fleet sends relatively new ships to the park, the society has a logical question: haven't our admirals played with ships?

        There was no point in reading further. The article, like most of Maxim's articles, is an ordinary political profanation, which has nothing to do with the problems of the 956 project!
        the operating time of the boilers of the head destroyer "Sovremenny" at the time of putting into repair (decommissioning) was about 25 thousand hours for each boiler. An even more striking example is the destroyer "Otlichny", which passed 8 miles in 150 years of active operation (for comparison: Peter the Great had only 535 miles on the lag in 17 years).

        For example, Maxim licked this from the forum in the livejournal, but on the same forum the problems and the impossibility of further exploitation of the "Sarychi" are described in detail ... alas, we have a fight with embezzlers admirals, not with problems! By the way, Peter had a mileage of 18 thousand miles in 2015 ... but what does it matter ...
        In general, warm greetings to your friend! hi
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 7 November 2020 20: 23
          -1
          Quote: Serg65
          The article, like most of Maxim's articles, is an ordinary political profanation, which has nothing to do with the problems of the 956 draft

          that the monsieur is LADY?
          and NOT ONE modern secondary armament (and even simply NPA PMO) in the combat composition of the Pacific Fleet (and this with a real threat of war with Japan!) and SF (+ NSNF) is this also a "political profanation"?
          By the way, I will even tell you why YOU "blazed" - for the FACTS are simply DEADLY, to which YOU simply have nothing to say (except screeching and lies).
          Quote: Serg65
          Maxim licked from the forum in livejournal

          LICK here YOU
          As for Monsieur Shishkin, Alpakov had the data on the operating time, and to put it mildly, the rather optimistic and inadequate LJ writer had something to "lick", this is just nonsense.
          Quote: Serg65
          fight against admirals-embezzlers,

          no, I am not interested in "envelopes in pockets"
          I am not a prosecutor's office
          I'm interested in the real combat capability of the RF Armed Forces and the Navy, on which a number of our "OTmirals" simply "put a bolt"

          Quote: Serg65
          By the way, Peter had a mileage of 18 thousand miles in 2015 ... but what does it matter ...

          the OPEN link matters
          because when bringing the real (current) value of the PV, the complaint from YOU would not be the administration of the resource, but "to another place"
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 9 November 2020 07: 05
            +3
            Quote: Fizik M
            that the monsieur is LADY?

            laughing You are on fire, Maksimka !!! Look what a waterfall gave out drooling !!! And with regards to the Sarychs, only hum ... so could they have been saved, naval commander?
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 9 November 2020 10: 45
              -3
              Quote: Serg65
              what a waterfall he gave out drooling !!!

              BUNNY waterfall drool and diarrhea - from you
              for by FACTS you have nothing to say
              Quote: Serg65
              And with regards to the Saryches, only mooing ... so was it possible to save them

              bunny, have you read the article at all?
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 9 November 2020 10: 49
                +4
                Quote: Fizik M
                for by FACTS you have nothing to say

                I have a lot of facts, because unlike the suites, I worked with these boilers!
                Quote: Fizik M
                BEDROOM

                Go away nasty !!!
                Quote: Fizik M
                you read the article at all

                belay Was that an article? And I thought, another fantasy on the theme "Everything, I'm smart alone!"
                1. Fizik M
                  Fizik M 9 November 2020 10: 54
                  +1
                  Quote: Serg65
                  I worked with these boilers!

                  What's on fire? HAVE BEEN PUNCHED?
                  Can you explain what "absolutely unsolvable problems" were in order to provide high purity water for the destroyers in the manner indicated in the article? Or, as usual, will you merge?
                  Quote: Serg65
                  so this was an article? And I thought-

                  YOU don’t think, but dumbly SCREAM
                  from FACTS
                  1. Serg65
                    Serg65 9 November 2020 11: 14
                    +2
                    Quote: Fizik M
                    PUNCHED BY MASSIVE?

                    laughing Your pumpkin hasn't grown yet, pumpkin!
                    Quote: Fizik M
                    absolutely unsolvable problems "were in order to provide high frequency

                    And then the HPF, when the problem was in the water pipes ??? The problem with the pipes is not connected with the admirals, the problem is in the manufacturing plant, for which it was not profitable to produce these pipes!
                    Maksimka, why didn't you become an admiral, after all, this is a legitimate miner title? All modern admirals left minelayers, but fate somehow boarded you?
                    1. Fizik M
                      Fizik M 9 November 2020 11: 18
                      0
                      Quote: Serg65
                      And what has the HPV to do with it, when the problem was in the water pipes?

                      this is one of the components of the problem
                      Quote: Serg65
                      the problem was in the hot water pipes ???

                      KVG-3D on "Vikra" probably with "muffled pipes"? - judging by YOUR heart-rending squeal
                      Quote: Serg65
                      Maxim,

                      "it wasn't about the bobbin, and YY was sitting in the cockpit"
                      and this is a clear and obvious FACT
                      from which someone lol now it is screaming here
                      1. Serg65
                        Serg65 9 November 2020 11: 58
                        +2
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        this is one of the components of the problem

                        When Grandfather does not catch mice, then everyone except him is to blame, and leave the tales about HPF to preschool children!
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        KVG-3D on "Vikra" probably with "muffled pipes"?

                        You underestimate the Indians, Maksimka ... as well as the Chinese!
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        it was not the bobbin, and YY was sitting in the cockpit

                        what Because have you even managed to become a black sheep among your colleagues ??
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        some are screaming here now

                        Don't squeal, take a pill and go to bed ... wink
                      2. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 9 November 2020 12: 01
                        -1
                        Quote: Serg65
                        You underestimate the Indians, Maksimka ... as well as the Chinese!

                        no, they just WORK
                        unlike Serg65, etc. "operators" wassat KILLING Ships

                        Shl, you whine another bunny, whine. The fact that you never gave a single fact or reasoned objection (in spite of the streams of diarrhea) clearly shows who is "burning" and "blazing"
                      3. Serg65
                        Serg65 9 November 2020 12: 11
                        +1
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        they just WORK

                        They just didn't have the 90s, praise their leaders!
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        you whine another bunny

                        Maksimka, some kind of strange orientation you have, turned to a sexopotologist and a psychoanalyst ???
                      4. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 9 November 2020 12: 16
                        +1
                        Quote: Serg65
                        They just didn't have the 90s, praise their leaders!

                        it's just that our BUNNIES and SERZHEK65 otmaza "for the 90s" "steer" UNTIL
                        Quote: Serg65
                        to a sexopotologist

                        monsieur keep your oyster inclinations with you
                      5. Nemchinov Vl
                        Nemchinov Vl 9 November 2020 15: 37
                        0
                        interesting, but if there really is an industrial opportunity now to mass-produce boilers KVG-6m, let's say (for operation on diesel fuel), and are they really reliable enough ?! Why is the Navy, in the absence of ships of the first rank, not "puzzled by the updated TTZ", for the release of the same "Yantar" (for example) a series of 5-7 new EM 956 hulls ?! With an updated (improved / revised project, for new types of weapons) .... With 3-4 (8 cells of the USK), the Poliment-Rendut air defense system, a modern GAK, BIUS Sigma, etc. ....? !
                      6. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 9 November 2020 15: 45
                        0
                        Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                        production of the same "Yantar" (for example) series of 5-7 new buildings EM 956.

                        because KTU is really outdated (at least for ships of the frigate-destroyer class), and not only and so much for MGH, the readiness parameter (speed of preparation) is even more important

                        I did not write that KTU 956 is "good", this is exactly a FORCED decision, but acceptable and working, and it WAS (today we have already "passed") the meaning of using this reserve on 956 as much as possible
  • ZEMCH
    ZEMCH 31 October 2020 00: 21
    +1
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    It was at 956 that both anti-ship missiles were without fanaticism, and their reconnaissance systems for attacking NK were more or less at the level. On the NK attack, the ship was more than good.

    But it was not designed for the collapse of the country and the absence of any repairs in the 90s, this killed him)))
  • Per se.
    Per se. 30 October 2020 08: 21
    34
    Do we draw any conclusions from all this? The question is open ...
    What conclusions should be drawn? The sad topic of the article on the destroyers of Project 956, but it could have been written about the boats of Project 941, in general, for many ships of our fleet.

    To complete the 70%-ready Varyag (aka Riga until 1990), the entire USSR was required, as Chernomyrdin was told, the Chinese took the ship as much as
    The Far East was completed without the USSR. This is from the category when a willing person is looking for opportunities, and not a desire for reasons. The Chinese found opportunities, the new government in Russia found reasons.

    Reasons were also found for abandoning the Admiral Lobov (aka the Ukraina cruiser). Reasons were found to sell Admiral Gorshkov to the Indians, and, initially, for nothing, in addition to the MiG-29 deal. All this is accompanied by a bacchanalia in the media about the uselessness of aircraft carriers and, in general, the "land" nature of Russia.

    Nevertheless, all these are consequences, and the reason is the surrender of the country to capitalism, and, accordingly, to the owners of this already world system. And no illusions are needed here, it is impossible to live in capitalism and be free from its laws, no matter how our bad guys in their new bourgeoisie cheeks in ostentatious "butting" with their masters. These laws were not written for the good of the colonies. A simple example, the eternal lack of money in our "poverty-stricken" Ministry of Finance, where our Central Bank, by law, cannot lend to its government. Therefore, - "there is no money, but you are holding on", while the Central Bank is buying American securities, dollars, gold, and in fact it all works not for the Russian economy, but for the IMF and FRS, that is, for the United States.

    If money is the main driving force of the war and the entire economy, then, brothers, sailors, before complaining about our ships and the fleet in general, it is necessary to deal with treacherous laws for Russia and colonial financial and economic dependence, in capitalism picked up from the dustbin of history.
    1. unknown
      unknown 30 October 2020 11: 24
      +5
      In the West, "old money" and "new money" are very well separated.
      All power belongs to the "old money", and the "new money" runs errands, in service.
    2. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 30 October 2020 11: 59
      +1
      Quote: Per se.
      Nevertheless, all these are consequences, and the reason is the surrender of the country to capitalism, and, accordingly, to the owners of this already world system. And no illusions are needed here, it is impossible to live in capitalism and be free from its laws, no matter how our bad guys in their new bourgeoisie cheeks in ostentatious "butting" with their masters. These laws were not written for the good of the colonies. A simple example, the eternal lack of money in our "poverty-stricken" Ministry of Finance, where our Central Bank, by law, cannot lend to its government. Therefore, - "there is no money, but you are holding on", while the Central Bank is buying American securities, dollars, gold, and in fact it all works not for the Russian economy, but for the IMF and FRS, that is, for the United States.

      If money is the main driving force of the war and the entire economy, then, brothers, sailors, before complaining about our ships and the fleet in general, it is necessary to deal with treacherous laws for Russia and colonial financial and economic dependence, in capitalism picked up from the dustbin of history.

      yes it is, but who passed Russia? not only traitors Yakovlev and Grbachev, but also cowardly silent and jumping people on the Maidan, in 1991 Moscow, in 2014 Kiev, in 2020 Minsk ...
    3. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 30 October 2020 12: 01
      -2
      Quote: Per se.
      All this is accompanied by a bacchanalia in the media about the uselessness of aircraft carriers and, in general, the "land" nature of Russia.

      Quite the opposite, we have an orgy of sawing money for unnecessary UDK aircraft carriers, to the detriment of the very necessary nuclear powered aircraft, minesweepers, coastal-based aircraft
  • bar
    bar 30 October 2020 09: 07
    18
    Personally, I realized a long time ago that the Russian Navy was killed by the very leadership of the Navy. This is quite obvious, especially against the backdrop of the successes of the Aerospace Forces and ground forces. With such leadership, and war is not needed, they will successfully destroy the fleet in peacetime. angry
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 30 October 2020 13: 19
      10
      Quote: bar
      especially against the backdrop of the successes of the Aerospace Forces and ground forces

      Hmm.
      1. bayard
        bayard 30 October 2020 23: 41
        +7
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Hmm.

        "Successes" of the Aerospace Forces in the absence of AWACS aircraft, fuel tankers, medium-duty VTA aircraft, the inability to build the Il-76MD90A, Il-112, Il-114 ... the hyped-up Su-57 hovering in uncertainty ...
        No, in the VKS, of course, a little better than in the navy, but this is definitely not for a serious war with a strong rival. All advertising actions of the authorities about the rearmament of the Army remind Potemkin villages - in appearance they are menacing and beautiful, dig deep into ... embezzlement, slovenliness and sabotage.
        The main resource of capitalism is. They are trying to make those of us. And they try very hard.
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 31 October 2020 00: 43
          +4
          Everywhere so. All of Russia Potemkin villages. I hope the Strategic Missile Forces retained at least some combat capability. That the ground forces, that the Aerospace Forces, that the air defense everywhere equipment of the 70-80s and Russian modernization of the Su-27 (30,35), MiG-31, T-72, BTR-80, S-300 (400), BUK, Mi- 8,24,28, etc. All this technique was developed more than 30-40 years ago, and then at least. Of the new in the army, only armored vehicles.

          Complete repetition of 1853 and 1905.
          1. bayard
            bayard 31 October 2020 01: 19
            +1
            As for the air defense with its technical equipment, I disagree with you - here the rearmament is proceeding at a good pace, but the density of the radar field and means of destruction as in the Soviet Union, alas, will not be there - for quite objective reasons. There was no such air defense as the USSR had in the world, and perhaps it won't. Nobody can afford it.
            The authorities do not have a clear goal-setting, clarity of thought and firmness of will.
            And about
            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            everywhere equipment of 70-80 years and Russian modernization of Su-27 (30,35), Mig-31, T-72, BTR-80, S-300 (400), BUK, Mi-8,24,28, 30, etc. All this the technique has been developed over 40-XNUMX years

            Look at the US Army - there will be much more old technology in percentage. Armored vehicles, artillery, aviation (the average age of the fleet), and there are a lot of old ships in the fleet. And taking into account the fact that the shipbuilding capacity and the pace of laying / building new ships in China is 4 (!) Times higher than in the United States, then with the current state of affairs, in 10-15 years the Chinese fleet will be equal to the American one, but at the same time there will be much fresher in age.
            But in the strategic nuclear forces Russia looks much more interesting and confident than the United States.
            hi
            1. OgnennyiKotik
              OgnennyiKotik 31 October 2020 01: 42
              +5
              Quote: bayard
              Look at the US Army - there will be much more old technology in percentage.

              The question is the quality of modernization. From the same Abrams and Bradley released in the 70-80s, nothing remained except the case. We have the best modifications of the T72 / 90 in ostentatious parts, for the rest of the T-72B3 / T-90A maximum. They wrote about the planes themselves. I don't believe in the effectiveness of ground-based air defense. Without a strong fighter and strike aircraft with a large number of AWACS, it is useless. A huge number of examples, a nod to technical lag and crooked hands, except for relaxation, causes nothing, we have the same thing, but on a large scale and against us, the forces will be completely different. The strategic nuclear forces are parity, but we do not know the real state of affairs, we can only hope for a good one.
              For comparison, some of the weapons that began to be serially supplied to the US Armed Forces over the past 15 years: Aircraft carriers of the Gerald R. Ford type, F35A / B / C, Stryker family, MRAP family of armored vehicles, Bell V-22 Osprey, Virginia nuclear submarine, UDC America ", Landing transports-docks like" San Antonio ", MQ-9 Reaper, etc. etc.
              1. bayard
                bayard 31 October 2020 02: 21
                +1
                Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                I don't believe in the effectiveness of ground-based air defense. Without a strong fighter and strike aircraft with a large number of AWACS, it is useless.

                Strong ground air defense is the strong point of the Soviet and Russian security systems. It is certainly difficult without AWACS aircraft, but they are trying to mitigate the situation with suspended radar containers - flawed, but still help. The lack of strike aviation in our country is always (and now also) is compensated by a large number of operational-tactical missile systems and long-range MLRS. And also a larger number of tactical nuclear warheads than the enemy has on them.
                If the conversation goes without limits, there will be something to answer.
                But no one is insured against treason - the Union was surrendered by the authorities at the peak of its military and economic power.
                Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                over the past 15 years: Aircraft carriers of the Gerald R. Ford type, F35А / В / С, the Stryker family, the MRAP family of armored vehicles, Bell V-22 Osprey, the Virginia nuclear submarine, the America UDC, San Antonio-type amphibious transport docks », MQ-9 Reaper, etc. etc.

                We will never be able to compete with the United States with the fleet, then for them another combatant arrived in time - China, and in fighter aviation, our fleet was seriously updated 4 + \ ++. But for the balance there is not enough AWACS and tankers.
                In today's conditions of Russia, it is nonsense and impermissible stupidity to count on confrontation by conventional means with all available enemies. But tactical nuclear weapons and strategic nuclear forces equalize the chances in any given scenario.
                We are not given another.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 31 October 2020 12: 25
                  0
                  Quote: bayard
                  Strong ground air defense is the strong point of the Soviet and Russian security systems. It is certainly difficult without AWACS aircraft, but they are trying to mitigate the situation with suspended radar containers - flawed, but still help. The lack of strike aviation in our country is always (and now also) is compensated by a large number of operational-tactical missile systems and long-range MLRS

                  It's a bit strange to compete with the Americans in missiles. They have assigned these tasks to aviation, with which it more than copes. There is no strong ground air defense from combat aircraft, see Armenia. Air defense helps only from Boeing and Ilov, as practice shows.
                  1. bayard
                    bayard 31 October 2020 14: 39
                    +1
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    There is no strong ground air defense from combat aircraft, see Armenia. Air defense helps only from Boeing and Ilov, as practice shows.

                    "How is this, your mother, let me understand?"
                    In the same Syria, the Syrian air defense on already outdated complexes showed quite decent performance - up to 80% of the targets hit. Another thing is that in those conditions there could be no talk of strikes against enemy bases and airfields, as well as of the defeat of the targets-carriers of the CD outside the state's borders, which greatly blurred the picture.
                    The Soviet air defense coped with its tasks completely - thanks to the saturation of reconnaissance, target designation and destruction means, when the fire capabilities of the air defense missile systems were reinforced and insured by air defense fighter aircraft.
                    Now in the Russian Federation, the air defense is of an object nature, and not the air defense of the country, as in the USSR, so we can only talk about the most threatened and priority areas, which are covered quite reliably. In any raid, the initiative always belongs to aviation - this is its natural advantage, but the means of over-the-horizon location and other means of reconnaissance make it possible to timely reveal the beginning of a raid or prepare for it, and, therefore, to take measures to disrupt, repel or prevent a preemptive strike. The best defense is offense.
                    And are you not suggesting to completely abandon air defense, following the American experience?
                    The Russian Federation, as the heir to the USSR, has its own experience, and it is very solid and effective. Russia (USSR) has proved the power of its air defense and its means in many local wars and conflicts, and these examples have long become textbooks.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 31 October 2020 16: 20
                      +1
                      Quote: bayard
                      showed quite decent performance - up to 80% of targets hit

                      Who was there she struck? Listeners of Konashenkov with tales about Tomahawks? I recall one F-16, which received a missile in pursuit, when at the end the pilot, stunned with impunity, after the attack went home at a height, without going down the terrain.
                      Quote: bayard
                      The Soviet air defense coped with its tasks quite well -

                      As far as I remember, the bourgeoisie stopped flying with the launch of the first reconnaissance satellites.
                      Quote: bayard
                      means of over-the-horizon location and other means of reconnaissance allow timely opening of the beginning of a raid or preparation for it

                      This is if the enemy shows training on the news. ZGRLS does not play against aircraft.
                      Quote: bayard
                      Are you not suggesting that you completely abandon air defense, following the American experience?

                      Well, this is how the money is divided. And at the expense of the American air defense, you are greatly mistaken, in what, and in the air defense the Americans are leading by a giant margin. The USSR never had anything like NORAD. Moscow's air defense is not, this is even with historical materialism. And now 9 A-50s, or how many are left there, are rusting in Ivanovo, and the Americans departmental AWACS drug processors from Mexico catch. Hello Rust.
                      Quote: bayard
                      Russia (USSR) has proved the power of its air defense and its means in many local wars and conflicts, and these examples have long become textbooks.

                      Where is it? Is it in Vietnam, or what, 50 years ago?
                      Quote: bayard
                      Look at the pace of construction of their heavy "destroyers", and in fact, missile cruisers - there are already 8 of them afloat, and after all, the head was just sent to the running gear.

                      Which ones? 55 projects? They just sent it, after the descent for 2-3 years they are being completed at the wall. The first hull was launched in the summer of the 17th, accepted by the fleet in 2020. Of the three buildings of the 18th year, only one has been issued so far. Not for the fleet, for testing.
                      No need to fetishize the hull of a modern warship. No, someone, we will not point the finger, and this is niasilite. But actually the main ambush is with electronics. And in this, the Chinese are where the Americans were 30 years ago.
                      Quote: bayard
                      this is 5 - 6 units

                      1. Is that not enough? 2. And who will take over the Atlantic?
                      Quote: bayard
                      what's in repair and modernization

                      For the Americans, the AB service cycle has long been worked out, the age of the ship does not matter.
                      Quote: bayard
                      the quality of ships of the main classes, which in 10 - 15 years China will have no less than the USA (destroyers, cruisers, frigates, UDC).

                      Quite a strange hypothesis. So far, even the Chinese themselves do not state this. By the end of 2020, their fleet is inferior to the American one in terms of rank 1 ships from "several times" to "an order of magnitude." Soon only cats will be born, Chinese, we must give them their due, while they understood it well.
                      Quote: bayard
                      for the United States, a new combatant has matured, with whom it will have to fight, compete, fight.
                      The Russian Federation will take a modest 3rd place at this celebration of life.

                      At the expense of the enemy, the Americans are aware. And about the Russian Navy - its place is at the TV, to put it mildly.
                      Quote: bayard
                      which are actively replacing the "Yars" - the latest domestic missile systems.

                      Which are the alteration of poplars.
                      Quote: bayard
                      how old is "Minuteman-2" \ "Minuteman-3"?

                      How much do you need? Have you heard something that minitmen have problems with their lifespan?
                      Quote: bayard
                      And the warheads on them are long overdue

                      And, well, off we go. The Americans fucked up the polymers. Iranians know how to separate isotopes, Jews, they say, even split shit into plutonium, and Americans sit, cry, invent new genders, useless worthless.
                      Quote: bayard
                      the importance of AWACS aircraft, he apparently misses

                      As if if it hadn't let it through, new Russian aircraft and serious radars would have come from somewhere. As if the reality is that on the Russian base is not like the E-3, Saab AEW & C has nowhere to come from.
                      1. bayard
                        bayard 31 October 2020 18: 48
                        +3
                        A lot of pretentious nonsense.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Quote: bayard
                        showed quite decent performance - up to 80% of targets hit

                        Who was there she struck? Listeners of Konashenkov with tales about Tomahawks?

                        I do not need Konashenko to find out the details, in addition, I am still an officer in the combat directorate of an air defense formation during the Soviet era, so there is something to ask from.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        bayard
                        The Soviet air defense coped with its tasks quite well -

                        As far as I remember, the bourgeoisie stopped flying with the launch of the first reconnaissance satellites.

                        They stopped flying after hitting Powers, heap
                        (exactly heaps) of violators in the border zone, shooting down a U-2 over Cuba during the Cuban missile crisis. Only in Transcaucasia, where I served, in the post-war period, up to a dozen planes of violators were shot down - from the Canberra and Phantom (the first ram in the history of a jet plane), to the Hercules stuffed with reconnaissance equipment. Just with the construction of the country's air defense system, they did not risk the lives of pilots and expensive aircraft, even the SR-71 did not dare to do this - they flew only along our borders.
                        They were afraid of our air defense.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        This is if the enemy shows training on the news. ZGRLS does not play against aircraft.

                        Reconnaissance means are different: space, radio engineering, intelligence, etc.
                        ZGRLS allow you to open the beginning of the raid and the deployment for it, this is enough to declare "readiness number 1" and take measures to repel a retaliatory strike / preemptive strike against enemy bases and lift fighter aircraft into the air.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        in what, and in air defense the Americans are leading by a giant margin. The USSR never had anything like NORAD.

                        Do not tell me, young man, you are absolutely incompetent. NORAD was not even close to the capabilities of the USSR air defense system. It was built exclusively on ultra-long-range radars such as "Cobra-Dane" and the like, they did not have a radar field not only at low, but also at medium altitudes. If it were not for the oceans washing their territory, their radar control system would not be worth a dime.
                        They had AWACS aircraft, but they could not patrol continuously and mainly provided forward-based forces - in Europe, in the Northern East, Japan, and Southeast Asia. It is impossible to keep watch in continuous mode by AWACS aircraft for technical and financial reasons. Moreover, they had only 50 such aircraft for all (!) Theaters for everything. In the USSR, they also planned to build 50 A-50s, but only 25 managed.
                        The same can be said about the quality and, most importantly, the number of weapons of destruction of the air defense of the US Army - their quality was significantly inferior to the Soviet systems, and the quantity was insufficient. In terms of combat fighters, we had an approximate parity, if we count all the fighters of the Air Force and air defense interceptors of the USSR against the fighters of the US Air Force.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Where is it? Is it in Vietnam, or what, 50 years ago?

                        Vietnam, Egypt, Syria, Cuba. Where our air defense systems appeared, air supremacy and impunity for US aviation ceased.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Which ones? 55 projects? They just sent it, after the descent for 2-3 years they are being completed at the wall.

                        This happens with all ships under construction - the completion time afloat and the set of acceptance tests, as a rule, always exceed the period of the slipway period. I'm talking about the pace of construction of such ships - now 8 hulls have been launched, in 2,5 - 3 years all eight ships will be in service and the same number will be completed. And in 10 years?
                        And after 15?
                        And after all, destroyers 052D are being built simultaneously with them, which have already been laid down by 22 pieces. , and in the ranks - 14 pcs. - an analogue of "Arleigh-Burk" with 64 UVP. Their complete construction cycle does not exceed 4 years - from laying to commissioning.
                        So extrapolate the situation - how many will there be in 10, 15 years, if the pace of their construction remains the same?
                        And I understand perfectly well that the ships are not yet the fleet, the called-up sailors are not sailors yet. That is why I say that in 10 years China will reach parity with the United States in its (!) Theater of operations, and in 15 years its fleet will be fully consistent in quality.
                        They learn very quickly.
                        And I have no enthusiasm at all about the growth of China's military power.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        bayard
                        which are actively replacing the "Yars" - the latest domestic missile systems.

                        Which are the alteration of poplars.

                        Not alteration, but further development - there the throw weight is completely different, and the number of warheads, and the composition of the fuel have been improved.
                        And these are new missiles with a long service life.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine

                        How much do you need? Have you heard something that minitmen have problems with their lifespan?

                        Do you have any idea what you are writing about? Development of the late 60s, deployed in the early 70s, moved over a hundred rows, changed the fuel in the steps several times.
                        These are very, very old missiles, and solid-propellant ones, which, by definition, have a shorter warranty period than liquid ampouled missiles. Their avionics from the 70s are software on floppy disks ... utter antiquity. That is why now they are urgently trying to order a replacement for them.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        bayard
                        And the warheads on them are long overdue

                        And, well, off we go. The Americans fucked up the polymers. Iranians are good at isotope separation, Jews,

                        And the Americans do not have a single radiochemical plant, and the old ones that worked on the diffusion principle (a couple of orders of magnitude more energy-intensive) have long since rotted, closed and disposed of.
                        And the new ones were not built.
                        Till .
                        Why
                        The competencies were lost, and they never had centrifuges.
                        But they try, which means it will work out over time. They already have a lot of plutonium and uranium-235, but it needs processing, because it has accumulated a lot of weed isotopes ...
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        As if the reality is that on the Russian base is not like the E-3, Saab AEW & C has nowhere to come from.

                        But at the same time, we produce several regimental sets per year for each type of air defense system, radar, avionics for fighter aircraft ... smile ... No, it's not about the bobbin. There is obvious sabotage and sabotage. It was quite possible to upgrade all the remaining Soviet A-50s to A-50Us over the past 2008 years since 12, but they will upgrade on average one every two years. Business has not been put on stream, although the Taganrog ASZ is not overloaded with orders and is quite capable of this.
                      2. 3danimal
                        3danimal 31 October 2020 19: 07
                        -1
                        Where our air defense systems appeared, air supremacy and impunity for US aviation ceased.

                        Iraq 1991 ?? The strongest air defense in the region.
                      3. bayard
                        bayard 31 October 2020 19: 22
                        +2
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Iraq 1991 ?? The strongest air defense in the region.

                        Against the coalition in which perhaps the USSR was not a member ... but released (in the USSR) a command watch with the logo on the dial (with a palm) "Desert Storm". lol
                        That they are poor fellows, after 10 years of the Iranian-Iraqi war, could resist when not only all NATO, but all their Arab neighbors came out against them?
                        Crushed by mass, interference and massive launches of the RC.
                        At the same time, Iraqi air defenses fought back for a long time, and shot down at least three dozen enemy fighters and attack aircraft.
                        It is necessary to compare on the examples of opponents close in strength ... Although in Vietnam the forces were oh-yo-yo as not equal, but behind North Vietnam was the USSR, which ... helped.
                        And America broke down.
                        request
                        bully
                      4. 3danimal
                        3danimal 31 October 2020 19: 45
                        -1
                        USSR was not

                        But he officially condemned the seizure of Kuwait. Even though Saddam tried to turn the trick with the collaborationist government and the request for inclusion in Iraq.
                        when not only all NATO, but also all their Arab neighbors came out against them?

                        The local Fuhrer went completely overboard ..
                        Crushed by mass, interference and massive launches of the RC.

                        So all the same, you can crush, having modern weapons in sufficient quantities.
                        At the same time, Iraqi air defenses fought back for a long time, and shot down at least three dozen enemy fighters and attack aircraft.

                        Out of more than 1000 involved. At no fish ...
                        Although in the same Vietnam the forces were oh-yo-yo as not equal, but behind North Vietnam was the USSR, which ... helped.
                        And America broke down.

                        Different time periods, errors were taken into account. The contingent in Vietnam was somewhat different from the times of WWII in Europe.
                        Plus, the Americans themselves did not understand what they were doing there, and anti-war protests began.
                        As in the Union, by the way, during the "fraternal aid" to Afghanistan. (It's just that the USA did not secret their losses)
                        And the forces in Afghanistan were much more unequal (not a single air defense system), and behind the back were the USA (SA, Pakistan), which ... helped. Weapons, advisors and ... a drop in oil prices. Which was painful for the "addicted" country, which bought millions of tons of wheat (thanks to the Bolsheviks with collectivization).
                        And the Union broke down.
                        (In your style).
                      5. bayard
                        bayard 31 October 2020 20: 48
                        +2
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        So all the same, you can crush, having modern weapons in sufficient quantities.

                        Any air defense system can be overloaded with targets, and the use of electronic warfare can lower the threshold of its stability. But the use of electronic warfare by the defending side is, on the contrary, capable of eliminating some of the targets by disorienting them and thereby increasing the threshold of air defense stability. This process is creative and depends on many components.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        At the same time, Iraqi air defenses fought back for a long time, and shot down at least three dozen enemy fighters and attack aircraft.

                        Out of more than 1000 involved. At no fish.

                        As far as I remember, 37 enemy aircraft were shot down by Iraqi air defense, mainly using anti-aircraft artillery and air defense systems with an optical guidance channel. All radars were suppressed by complex interference.
                        It was essentially the beating of babies - with a total superiority in the quantity and quality of means of destruction. If the USSR had provided Iraq with assistance, half of the countries participating in the coalition would not have joined it, and the United States and its allies would have been stuck in the sands of Mesopotamia.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        As in the Union, by the way, during the "fraternal aid" to Afghanistan.

                        The Afghan adventure is the fruit of Andropov's conspiracy with the finintern of the United States and England, a setup from an agent of influence. Everything there was complicated, muddy and everything was planned so as to rouse the people of Afghanistan to resistance. It was a country so friendly to us, in which, before the introduction of troops, a Soviet person felt as if in one of the union republics - the attitude towards us was so good.
                        The night assault on Amin's palace and the subsequent assault on Kabul (at dawn) by the Vitebsk division crossed everything out. It was not even an insult, it was a betrayal of the saint himself - friendship and trust.
                        The scoundrel Andropov with his owners calculated everything very well.
                        And they did it.
                        But the Union did not have a goal to conquer, conquer or plunder Afghanistan ... Andropov (personally !!!) launched disinformation about Amin's allegedly impending treason with an invitation to the United States with their bases ... It was a pure lie!
                        But our military and political leadership fell for this provocation ... and then just tried to keep the situation as it is.
                        And the Union did not break, it was broken.
                        Traitors.
                        And you, as I understand it, are very close.
                      6. 3danimal
                        3danimal 31 October 2020 22: 05
                        -2
                        And the Union did not break, it was broken.

                        Those who founded it broke.
                        Traitors

                        To some extent. In relation to their millions of people. Bolsheviks-voluntarists, who made the economy according to their ideological dogmas, ignoring the sacrifices and not understanding (through their "religious" prism) the consequences.
                        The final they came to was predictable.
                        And you, as I understand it, are very close.

                        The Bolsheviks are not close to me.
                        In terms of the structure of the country, I would bet on the option with a constitutional monarchy, or a republic after the convocation of the Constituent Assembly (with Lenin and co "turned off").
                        The scoundrel Andropov with his owners calculated everything very well.

                        As it all smacks of conspiracy.
                      7. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 31 October 2020 22: 32
                        +3
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Somehow it all smacks of conspiracy

                        For the first time I see that the USSR was destroyed not by Khrushchev and Gorbachev / Belovezhtsy, but by Andropov. How rich is the world of the conspiracy theorist!
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        In terms of the structure of the country, I would bet on the option with a constitutional monarchy, or a republic after the convocation of the Constituent Assembly (with Lenin and co "turned off").

                        It doesn't work that way. That is, a deeply alternative Nikolai is needed here. After the removal of Nicholas - either the left dictatorship, or the right. Considering what nonentities Nikolai put in command of the fronts, there were no alternatives to Lenin. God doesn't love Russia.
                      8. bayard
                        bayard 31 October 2020 23: 33
                        +1
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        And the Union did not break, it was broken.

                        Those who founded it broke.

                        Remember the peasant's question to VI Chapaev: "Are you for the Bolsheviks, or are you for the Communists?" ... It seems like a naive question, but dug the essence.
                        The Communists are Trotsky, Sverdlov, Bukharin and Co. , but the Bolsheviks are Stalin, Lenin, Bonch-Bruevich and their supporters. Some destroyed the state - RI, then the Soviet Union, now Russia. The Bolsheviks saved the state, won the civil war and internal party struggles, and built the Great Empire.
                        A super-efficient Empire.
                        After Stalin's death, the communists gradually returned to power and "broke the Country."
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        ... Bolsheviks-voluntarists, who made the economy according to their ideological dogmas, ignoring the sacrifices and not understanding (through their "religious" prism) the consequences.
                        The final they came to was predictable.

                        Why is the Stalinist model of the economy not to your liking?
                        Along with state (public) ownership of all strategic industries, there was freedom of entrepreneurship - up to 17% of the country's GDP was provided by cooperatives and private owners: sewing and shoe workshops and ateliers, furniture cooperatives and factories, hairdressers, private practice of doctors under a patent, even private (cooperative ) design bureaus - our two great helicopter design bureaus were founded as cooperatives on a state contract, they were nationalized already under Khrushchev, like everyone else.
                        Remember the Second World War, how some ... "collective farmers" bought planes, tanks, etc. for the army. Where could such money come from individual individuals (I'm not talking about collectives) to buy planes and tanks?
                        They could afford it.
                        They had funds for this.
                        This means that they did not live in poverty under Soviet Power.
                        Do not confuse the USSR under Khrushchev and under Stalin, these are two completely different countries, the standard of living of people in which was strikingly different.
                        Under Stalin, in the post-war years, an ordinary miner could buy a Pobeda car for one salary with a bonus and still had a month's food left.
                        It was in the Donbass, I say from an eyewitness of such a purchase. And I knew quite a few such examples of the past.
                        And under Khrushche, everything became very, very poor ... and the arbitrariness of the valentarists began.
                        Yes, those same communists.
                        Because the Bolsheviks were transferred.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        And you, as I understand it, are very close.

                        The Bolsheviks are not close to me.

                        This is just obvious to me.
                        You definitely want a "constitutional monarchy" lol
                        And who is the monarch?
                        To elect or the oligarchs will pull matches?
                        And according to what constitution is such a monarchy foreseen?
                        Your spiritual predecessors overthrew this same monarchy in February 1917 and lasted only half a year in power negative collapsing the country, corrupting the army, depriving it of the fruits of victory in a bloody war ... in conspiracy with the secret services of the Entente ...
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        or - by the republic after the convocation of the Constituent Assembly

                        Again? belay
                        Was Zheleznyak not enough for you with his tired guard?

                        Your coveted rulers have been in power since 1992.
                        Have you built a lot?
                        Have you created?
                        Have you improved your quality of life?
                        Over 30 years?
                        The An-2 maize plant is no longer able to build!
                        The shame of "Olympic" humiliation is not good.
                        Complete irresponsibility of all authorized representatives!
                        Not life is a liberal's dream.
                      9. storm
                        storm 1 November 2020 01: 31
                        0
                        Under Stalin in the post-war years, an ordinary miner could buy a Pobeda car for one salary with a bonus, and there was still a month's food left

                        The entire Russian village under Stalin lived as under serfdom, worked for "sticks", did not receive money, only the products that were grown and produced on the collective farm, did not have passports ...
                        The time of legalized slavery and poverty ...
                        Passports in the villages began to be issued after Khrushchev under Brezhnev, at the same time they began to pay pensions and salaries.
                      10. bayard
                        bayard 1 November 2020 02: 19
                        +4
                        Do you really think that the collective farmer could not leave for the city? Get a passport there and find a job on your own? Go to college? Institute?
                        Academician Yangel was the son of a peasant, received an education, became a designer of heavy missiles, an academician. And from another village - not far from the one where Yangel was born, the Utkin brothers came out, fought, studied and also became academicians - one replaced Yangel as general designer, the other created a BZHRK for the Molodets rocket ...
                        There are millions of such examples!
                        What kind of slavery is there when education has become not only possible, but compulsory!
                        Or did the peasants in Ingushetia have passports?
                        The passport was issued either to a city dweller or to a citizen who travels and must have a document certifying him.
                        So the lack of passports for peasants is a legacy from the Republic of Ingushetia, which was obsolete later - when citizens became more mobile, and the presence of a passport became mandatory.
                        In the USA, too, not everyone has passports, they have enough driver's license. Or birth certificates.
                        And about the money for the collective farmers.
                        You probably forgot that the collective farms were called AGRICULTURAL COOPERATIVES.
                        Do you understand?
                        After the harvest, part of the harvest was handed over to the state (in exchange for a tractor and everything that was needed for life), and the other part - in shares, according to the labor contribution - the very sticks.
                        If you want - sell your share, if you want - for personal use (feed the cattle, feed yourself). And the everyday life was communal - traditional for Russia, even pre-Petrine, and later they always lived in communities - the land was distributed according to the number of eaters (it was the land, it belonged to the community). The whole world was building a new house for young people or victims of fire, helping the widows to cultivate the land, to reap the harvest ... The usual everyday life of the Russian village.
                        Everything was familiar.
                        If only the chairman of some tyrant will be put ... But even such questions were resolved.
                        At one time, I talked a lot with old people who remembered those times - it was interesting for me to ask, to tell them. And in different regions it was - from Siberia to central and even western Ukraine and the Baltic states.
                        This is not from books - live communication.
                      11. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 1 November 2020 03: 04
                        +1
                        Quote: bayard
                        Under Stalin in the post-war years, an ordinary miner could buy a Pobeda car for one salary with a bonus

                        There was a large-scale battle about cars and salaries here.
                        https://topwar.ru/156464-kak-amerikanskie-soldaty-zverstvovali-vo-vremja-vojny.html
                        Oh, yes, there is the 65th year, and you all dramatically became impoverished under Khrushchev.
                        Quote: bayard
                        the collective farmer could not leave for the city? Get a passport there and find a job on your own? Go to college? Institute?

                        I could take from master chairman of the waste. Mostly young people left who were not included in the collective farmers. The girls entered the uchagi, the guys did not return from the army. There is no institute, it is possible that there were no 10-year-olds in the villages.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Academician Yangel was the son of a peasant, was educated

                        Yangel has never been a collective farmer. He finished school in Moscow.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Or did the peasants in Ingushetia have passports?

                        Similar to the USSR. They had, if they left the village for fishing.
                        Quote: bayard
                        inheritance from the Republic of Ingushetia, obsolete later - when citizens became more mobile, and the presence of a passport became mandatory.
                        In the USA, too, not everyone has passports, they have enough driver's license. Or birth certificates.

                        Your arrogance is amazing. Yes, in the States, a passport is understood as a foreign country. But in the States there is no such thing as "passport violation." Not to mention the "registration" / "registration at the place of residence."
                        Quote: bayard
                        the other part - on shares, according to the labor contribution - the same sticks.

                        As I understand it, your idea is that everyone who has personally found the workdays has long died.

                        No, not all.
                        Quote: bayard
                        At one time I talked a lot with old people who remembered those times - it was interesting for me to ask, to them - to tell

                        Well, I won't say about old people, but everything is clear with you as a source of legends about antiquity.
                  2. 3danimal
                    3danimal 1 November 2020 08: 20
                    -2
                    an ordinary miner could buy himself a Pobeda car and still had to eat for a month

                    Remind me, how many miners rode them?
                    And how many millions died of hunger in 1947-48?
                  3. bayard
                    bayard 1 November 2020 15: 51
                    +1
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    how many millions died of hunger in 1947-48?

                    Millions?
                    Have you read Solzhenitsyn?
                    There was a famine due to a poor harvest in a country that has not yet recovered after the war, but only millions and billions are the fantasies of scoundrels and manuals of Western propaganda. In England, when were the cards canceled in what year? Food?
                    And some of the miners went for a drive, who managed to buy through the window between the approval of the "Stalinist tariff grid" and Khrushchev's reforms. The first thing after Stalin's death and the cleansing of his personnel base was a sharp cut in tariff scales - people began to receive several times less.
                    I personally knew one of the sons of such miners, he and his father went to choose a car as a boy.
                    And then he rose to the rank of general, although he was the son of an ordinary Donetsk miner.
                    And his elder brother also became a general.
                    This is by the way about "Soviet slavery".
                    In the confrontation between the Bolsheviks and the Communists, they / you, the Communists, took the upper hand, so all the evil happened from them.
                  4. 3danimal
                    3danimal 1 November 2020 17: 32
                    -2
                    here are just millions, billions - these are the fantasies of scoundrels and training manuals

                    As a result of hunger and related diseases, up to 1,5 million people died.

                    http://www.hist.msu.ru/Labs/Ecohist/OB10/SEM/Ellman.html
                    Tell me about fantasies and training manuals smile
                  5. bayard
                    bayard 1 November 2020 18: 37
                    +3
                    Ellman.
                    From 1 to 1,5 million ... "not clear enough ratio", "excess deaths" ... and other speculations.
                    There was hunger, people were malnourished, but even c. Ellman uses the term excess deaths. Doesn't the fact that there were millions of wounded in the country who died of wounds over the course of several post-war years, and the peak of these deaths just fell on the first post-war years, does not bother you with any thoughts?
                    BUT ?
                    But a huge number of veterans who received serious injuries, concussions and undermined their health during the war died within 10 years. There are many. And the peak fell just in 1946 -48. ... And the poor harvest and hunger, of course, intensified this process, but they did not die of hunger.
                    And from wounds!
                    But even the persona herself - Ellman, only emphasizes the falsity and dishonesty of your broadcasts of the fabrications of this subject.
                  6. 3danimal
                    3danimal 1 November 2020 18: 45
                    -1
                    but did not die of hunger

                    Why am I not surprised at attempts to justify the actions of the authorities (remember, the extremists who seized power and unleashed the Civil War) smile
                    That is, there was no hunger?
                    And the Union was not actively engaged in grain export?

                    https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/golod-1946-1947-godov-v-noveyshih-issledovaniyah-istorikov-konets-1980-h-2000-e-gody
                  7. bayard
                    bayard 1 November 2020 20: 17
                    +2
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    That is, there was no hunger?

                    The last recorded famine due to crop failure.
                    There was a bad harvest.
                    And there was hunger.
                    People were malnourished in some regions (in Moldova for example), but there were no "millions of deaths from hunger."
                    But there was an increased mortality from wounds!
                    And to give out increased mortality from wounds in a country that survived a terrible war, with millions of invalids and cripples ... This is blasphemy.
                    Which, incidentally, is quite organic to your brother's mental organization.
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    extremists who seized power and unleashed the Civil War)

                    This is just about your brother - permanent Trotskyists and "revolutionaries" of various persuasions (social, sexual).
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    And the Union was not actively engaged in grain export?

                    There was an export - to Germany, Poland, etc. Europe, in order to prevent hunger there due to poor harvest. There, in addition, the sowing campaign was disrupted in many places because of the war ...
                    Don't speculate on such things.
                    They don't laugh at you "about the ovens of Auschwitz", "camps for former Jewish prisoners in the western occupation zone \ zones", where former prisoners were locked up in new camps, where they sewed clothes and shoes - uniforms, and then began to take them in an organized manner to Palestine ...
                    Without asking too much consent.
                    And how did you live there in the first years, until you settled down.
                    And that the concept of "terrorist" and "international terrorism" at that time in the WESTERN press meant exclusively Jewish terrorists who killed British soldiers and officials in Palestine and not only, blew up and disabled the engineering infrastructure in their territory of concern ... In the fight for the right to form your own state on that land ...
                    In Palestine then - in the late forties, it was also hungry. And it is very poor for the settlers.
                    The mother of my school friend was born in the Buchenwald concentration camp, but she and her mother were not taken to Palestine (maybe just because of a small child) and she returned to Ukraine ... Medical experiments were carried out on my friend's grandmother in Buchenwald, which is why she stayed disabled ...
                    So you, following your example, are offering me a laugh on this topic ?!
                    It’s so much fun for you to mock someone’s pain and suffering.
                    Right ?
                  8. 3danimal
                    3danimal 2 November 2020 04: 36
                    -1
                    But there was an increased mortality from wounds!

                    An invented explanation for you.
                    They don't laugh at you "about the ovens of Auschwitz", "camps for former Jewish prisoners in the western occupation zone \ zones", where former prisoners were locked up in new camps

                    You will be surprised, but I am Russian. Blue-eyed brown-haired man, 2m tall.
                    Only with critical thinking everything is ok. They taught me not to take anything for granted.
                    (My family did NOT charge water in front of Chumak and co)
                  9. bayard
                    bayard 2 November 2020 16: 51
                    +1
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    But there was an increased mortality from wounds!

                    An invented explanation for you.

                    I knew many children of those same soldiers who died from the wounds and consequences of the war in the first years after the war. But they managed to give birth to children before that.
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    You will be surprised, but I am Russian. Blue-eyed brown-haired man, 2m tall.

                    Glad for your parameters. In my family, both my son-in-law and my nephews are all like that, but I didn't quite reach your height standard. Precisely slightly, but this is quite enough for me. But the eyes are just blue.

                    Quote: 3danimal
                    They taught us not to take anything for granted.

                    I doubt it very much, because your trust in sources is extremely selective. And it just so happened that I talked a lot with people of that time, and the history of my family is not so simple, so among the polar opinions and assessments of "historians" and everyday writers, I have a completely autonomous opinion on the events of those years.
                    And it is much more objective.
                    As a child, I was friends with the younger grandson of General Borodin (from the Cossack troops of the Ural Army), who planned and carried out a brilliant operation to defeat the headquarters of the 25th shock Chapayev division, despite the fact that I myself am the grand-nephew of the divisional commander Kutyakov, who replaced Chapiliev in his post, friend of Vasiliyev Ivanovich. And this did not bother us at all.
                    He studied at a military university together with the great-grandson of the general from infantry Yudenich and knew / know the descendants of the officers of Kolchak's headquarters, received official telegrams signed by Beregovoy and was familiar with the participants of the Soviet lunar program (the lunar landing module did), was familiar with Khodorkrvsky and Mevzlin, and more before the collapse of the Union, and talked with Abramovich, it was my program that saved the leading industry in Russia from collapse and sale to foreigners at one time (1992) (although this program is known under the authorship of another person, but very respected by me), my friend was offered I was offered a place in Gaidar's office (in the Ministry of Industry, now Industry and Trade) and I was offered an interesting occupation, but we refused ... I saw many processes from the inside and many processes were a witness, although I was then quite a young man.
                    I can judge that time and give estimates, for I know many things not from dubious books, but from live communication with eyewitnesses and as an eyewitness.

                    Quote: 3danimal
                    (My family did NOT charge water in front of Chumak and co)

                    I doubt it was very fashionable back then. lol But I myself was considered one of those, although I did not make money on it. For me at one time it was just fun. And that was a long time ago.
                    ... And to refer to the food situation in the Volga region ... it doesn't matter there even today with the harvests - the climate, sir. Dry winds, dust storms from the Volga steppes, lack of precipitation. There, due to poor harvests, famine has been regular / periodic since tsarist times, until, under Soviet rule, more or less tolerable supplies from other regions were organized. And under the late Soviet Union, this region was depressed, and under the new bourgeoisie ... My friends live there (Saratov, Engels), so we regularly communicate, and this is definitely not an indicator on the national average.
  • bayard
    bayard 31 October 2020 23: 40
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    The scoundrel Andropov with his owners calculated everything very well.

    As it all smacks of conspiracy.

    So the services are special and usually act in secrecy. Have you not heard?
    And everything was known about Andropov for a long time, from the history of the family, kinship with the Sverdlovs, as the head of the KGB, he had an office in the house of his uncle - the owner of the jewelry house on Lubyanka, ... he even did not change his uncle's coat of arms on the gate - a shield with two crossed behind him with swords, on the contrary made him the coat of arms / emblem of the KGB.
    Have you not heard?
    In vain.
    Andropov is generally a very interesting character.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 31 October 2020 19: 08
    -1
    A-50U for the past since 2008

    This is also not the most modern upgrade. In the trend AWACS with AFAR.
    But already something, A-50 - quite sadness.
  • bayard
    bayard 31 October 2020 19: 25
    +2
    Quote: 3danimal
    This is also not the most modern upgrade.

    Whichever is, but mastered and quite satisfied as a temporary - transitional measure, until rearmament on the A-100.
    But something went wrong.
    The enemies of the people did not doze.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 31 October 2020 19: 54
    -1
    The enemies of the people did not doze.

    And also counter-revolutionaries and opponents of Soviet power smile
    Currently, the aircraft is being tested, they are going according to the schedule.


    https://m.gazeta.ru/amp/army/news/2020/04/09/14267695.shtml
  • bayard
    bayard 31 October 2020 21: 04
    +2
    Quote: 3danimal
    And also counter-revolutionaries and opponents of Soviet power

    They are by definition. But they are also enemies to the people of modern Russia.
    Quote: 3danimal
    Currently, the aircraft is being tested, they are going according to the schedule.

    Oh, how beautiful and LONG such words can sound in the ears of a simpleton ...
    The tests are going on according to the schedule ... at the A-100? smile
    But what about the modernization of the A-50?
    After all, there are at least 20 of them in stock, and only 12 were modernized in 6 years ...
    How so ?
    Also according to the schedule? smile
    Enemies of the people were not found ... yes
    Again, no one is to blame. wink
    So it turns out that there are no AWACS aircraft. yes
    And there are no guilty ones either. request
    The wonders of victorious liberalism. bully
    And of course we learned to write reports.
    And promise. yes
    Rogozin can teach a master class - MASTER. laughing
    As well as other accomplices.
  • Dart2027
    Dart2027 31 October 2020 21: 48
    0
    Quote: bayard
    After all, there are at least 20 of them in stock

    Less than 11.
  • bayard
    bayard 31 October 2020 22: 54
    +1
    Quote: Dart2027
    Less than 11.

    Have the mice been eaten?
  • Dart2027
    Dart2027 1 November 2020 07: 23
    -1
    Quote: bayard
    Did the mice eat

    That is, there is nothing to argue.
  • bayard
    bayard 1 November 2020 15: 31
    +1
    What can I argue about?
    In service and in storage about 20. This is how much the modernization had to go through. But they didn't.
    Did you name the number of A-50 in the ranks?
  • Dart2027
    Dart2027 1 November 2020 16: 05
    0
    Quote: bayard
    You named the number of A-50 in the ranks

    At the beginning of 1999, the Russian Air Force was armed with 16 A-50 aircraft. Considering the collapse of that time, it is good that at least so many have survived.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 31 October 2020 22: 07
    0
    After all, there are at least 20 of them in stock

    About 15.
    Enemies of the people were not found ...

    The intrigues of enemies many times covered the decline of the organization and corruption.
  • bayard
    bayard 31 October 2020 23: 00
    +2
    Quote: 3danimal

    The intrigues of enemies many times covered the decline of the organization and corruption.

    So they are dear ones and they are - embezzlers, loafers and corrupt souls. lol Sloppiness is now very convenient to cover up sabotage ... in an era of irresponsibility.
    Quote: 3danimal
    About 15.

    15 ... 11 ... At the time of the start of the modernization program, there were 20 of them. And so much remained in the ranks and in storage. Who prevented from repairing and returning the airworthiness of the glider (since there are no new ones) to change the filling for a new one?
    Only "embezzlement, slovenliness", which is the essence - sabotage.
    And try to argue with me.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 31 October 2020 19: 15
    -1
    These are very, very old missiles, and solid-fuel ones, which, by definition, have a lower warranty period than liquid ampouled ones.

    Does heptyl have a longer shelf life?
    It is rockets with solid propellants that have a longer life and safer storage.
    The quality of TT matters, with this the USA was doing well, in the 60s-70s they were significantly ahead. Thanks to this, a successful Trident program was launched.
    Their avionics from the 70s are software on floppy disks ... utter antiquity.

    Interesting: to compare technologies of the 70s with modern ones. Remind, what information carriers were used in those years? Punch cards?


    In addition, software was likely to change, as did the media.
  • bayard
    bayard 31 October 2020 19: 40
    +3
    Do you continue to insist that the missiles produced in the early 70s are in better technical condition than the Yarsy that entered service in 2009?
    You frighten me with your conclusions. repeat
    No, the Minuteman is certainly a very successful rocket, and a big plus in it is that the TT in it can be changed from time to time. Thanks to this, they are still in service.
    But as far as I remember, they did not change the avionics. Serve as is.
    They would have been written off long ago, but there is nothing to change.
    Quote: 3danimal
    It is rockets with solid propellants that have a longer life and safer storage.

    Do you remember the story of MX missiles?
    How long did they stand on the database?
    Why were they written off?
    It is the technical possibility of replacing TT in "Minutemans" that made it possible to operate them to this day.
    And the fact that they are still able to fly is more of a technical paradox than a systemic given.
    They are kept in service due to the complete absence of any alternative.
    And liquid-propellant rockets, if stored dry, can serve much more. An example of this is the "Stilettos", on which "Vanguard" is now being deployed.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 31 October 2020 22: 14
    -1
    Do you continue to insist that the missiles produced in the early 70s are in better technical condition than the Yarsy that entered service in 2009?

    And where did I say this? Read carefully: these complexes were very perfect at the time of release, it is incorrect to compare their electronic filling with modern ones. And they are greatly honored by the surviving combat capability and still good performance.
    Americans, if you understand, are often quite practical (and even economical) in armaments: if something works well, they do not touch it (not forgetting about modernization). An example with Minutemans, C-130, B-52 aircraft, M-2 machine gun, etc.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 31 October 2020 23: 39
    -1
    Quote: bayard
    Don't laugh, young man

    And you become funny, grandpa.
    Quote: bayard
    I don't need Konashenko

    Mr. Konashenkov from the RF Ministry of Defense.
    Quote: bayard
    I am still in the past an officer of the combat command of an air defense formation even in the USSR

    And, that is, you mean 80% of conditional defeats of conditional targets? Yes, in this respect the Soviet air defense was exceptionally strong. In terms of reporting.
    Quote: bayard
    in the post-war period, up to a dozen planes of violators were shot down - from "Canberra" and "Phantom" (the first ram in the history of a jet plane) to "Hercules" stuffed with reconnaissance equipment

    The line "Americans are concealing losses" has gone, I see. Canberra was dug up in some garbage dump, which you just can't hear.
    Quote: bayard
    They feared our air defense

    Everything is simpler.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_(satellite)
    Quote: bayard
    ZGRLS allow you to open the beginning of the raid and deploy for it

    ZGRLS do not see aircraft in general and military aircraft in civilian traffic in particular.
    Quote: bayard
    Reconnaissance means are different: space, radio engineering, intelligence, etc.

    How interesting.
    Quote: bayard
    NORAD was not even close to the capabilities of the USSR air defense system

    Yeah.
    For a long time, the air defense of the USSR was unconditional N1 in terms of its uselessness and amount of harm to the country and approximately corresponded to the Big Fleet before the Second World War.
    Quote: bayard
    If it were not for the oceans washing their territory, their radar control system would not be worth a dime.

    And, well, that is, if America were not America, then the American air defense should have been different. Well, that sounds logical.
    Quote: bayard
    In the USSR, they also planned to build 50 A-50s, but only 25 managed.

    It's always nice to see how paper airplanes are compared to iron ones there. The first time I hear that AWACS was an important component of NORAD, especially when air defense was relevant, in the 50s and 60s.
    Quote: bayard
    the number of weapons of destruction of the US Army air defense - their quality was significantly inferior to Soviet systems,

    Really? We do not know anything at all about the relationship of the arms of the US troops with each other?
    Quote: bayard
    Vietnam, Egypt, Syria, Cuba. Where our air defense systems appeared, air supremacy and impunity for US aviation ceased.

    Vietnam and Egypt, 60s and early 70s. War with an unprepared enemy. When the enemy prepared in 82, the Soviet air defense was over in a matter of days. And never again, never reminded of myself. Peace be to ashes.
    Quote: bayard
    If the USSR had provided Iraq with assistance, half of the countries participating in the coalition would not have joined it, and the United States and its allies would have been stuck in the sands of Mesopotamia.

    Actually, in the 82nd the USSR was finally disaccustomed to dishonor with its help where it was not necessary.
    Quote: bayard
    in 2,5 - 3 years all eight ships will be in service and the same number will be completed. And in 10 years?

    Well, if they began to build in 2014 and have completed only 1, there is nothing to extrapolate. If you're lucky, by 2030 they will run around these 8 and start building an improved series, with electromotion and other fashionable things.
    Quote: bayard
    And after 15?

    And after 15 you will need to see if the bourgeoisie will be able to shove the Chinese back under the bunk. Maybe they will build cruisers, or maybe they will eat each other. The Chinese are not the first to imagine a lot about themselves.
    Quote: bayard
    destroyers 052D, already laid down by 22 , and in the ranks - 14 pcs. - analogue of "Arleigh-Burk" with 64 UVP

    Caught up with a 91 ship? Well done. By 2030, if you're lucky, they will catch up in quantity. In terms of quality, how it goes is not really known about the quality.

    Or they won't catch up. The rate of laying 52D, 2-4 buildings per year - this is the rate of laying Berkov in the early 00s. Now the Americans are laying a little, they are switching to flight 3. When they do, it will be possible to look at the building. And yes, Burke Flight 3 is not 52d or even 55.
    Quote: bayard
    They learn very fast

    The catch-up development is very fast, but it has its limits. In the twentieth century, many were convinced of this.
    Quote: bayard
    Not alteration, but further development

    Oh, well, OK. Developed to a minitman. Almost. How old is the Minuteman there, you said?
    Quote: bayard
    utter antiquity

    Poor ameriganchegs. Rockets from the museum.
    Quote: bayard
    And the new ones were not built.
    Till .
    Why

    Because you don’t? Because, unlike we will not say who, they do not shout about nuclear ash at any opportunity? Because they have a gigantic lead over the rest of the world in terms of conventional weapons?
    Quote: bayard
    But at the same time, we produce several regimental sets per year for each type of air defense system, radar, avionics for fighter aircraft ...

    Yes Yes. At the same time, the bourgeoisie AFAR is already being shoved into the Kyrgyz Republic, and the Soviet government did not even have time to put it on airplanes. It’s ridiculous to talk about anti-Soviet power, it’s not about AFAR at all.
  • bayard
    bayard 1 November 2020 01: 12
    +3
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    And you become funny, grandpa.

    Not that old. Not by that much .
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Mr. Konashenkov from the RF Ministry of Defense.

    A common propagandist is the MO press secretary.
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    And, that is, you mean 80% of conditional defeats of conditional targets? Yes, in this respect the Soviet air defense was exceptionally strong. In terms of reporting.

    Young man, read carefully - this is the result of the work of the Syrian air defense for a certain period.
    The Soviet air defense was strong enough and echeloned.
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    The line "Americans are concealing losses" has gone, I see. Canberra was dug up in some garbage dump, which you just can't hear.

    Nobody hid them, well, they used to be unlocked. But all these episodes are very well known, and I studied them from battle maps in my headquarters - it was a busy time.
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    ZGRLS do not see aircraft in general and military aircraft in civilian traffic in particular.

    continue to be in your prostration.
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Yeah.
    For a long time, the air defense of the USSR was unconditional N1 in terms of its uselessness and amount of harm to the country and approximately corresponded to the Big Fleet before the Second World War.

    It is not for you to judge the usefulness of the type of troops.
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    The first time I hear that AWACS was an important component of NORAD, especially when air defense was relevant, in the 50s and 60s.

    I did not say this, on the contrary, I pointed out that AWACS was held in Europe, BV, Japan, Southeast Asia. The radar illumination of the border area and over the territory of the United States at low and even medium altitudes was below any criticism. From the CD from submarines (Granat) and X-55, they were completely defenseless if they missed the exit of their carriers to the launch lines (with a range of Granat and X-55 of about 3000 km.). They tried to rectify this situation later, raising the AWACS tethered airships. Not a very successful experience, as well as in our Kamchatka - winds turning the airship.
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    bayard
    the number of weapons of destruction of the US Army air defense - their quality was significantly inferior to Soviet systems,

    Really? We do not know anything at all about the relationship of the arms of the US troops with each other?

    We know, we know - they have never had this kind of troops separately. The fact that I had in mind the American air defense systems, perhaps even a schoolboy would have understood.
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Vietnam and Egypt, 60s and early 70s. War with an unprepared enemy. When the enemy prepared in 82, the Soviet air defense was over in a matter of days. And never again, never reminded of myself. Peace be to ashes.

    Wow, how painful it is for you.
    Do you have a case of relatives on the planes did not burn?
    The USSR did not set itself the task of destroying the state of Israel, but patronized the countries of the Arab coalition. For us it was like now the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia - we created one state ourselves (the decision of Comrade Stalin), with others they are bound by allied obligations. This circumstance also helped you a lot.
    At 82, you applied a new tactic and geography helped you. At the first stage, you had success, but a little later, emergency deliveries of air defense systems, incl. S-200 stopped the war. This was enough for us (just for us). We and Egypt at one time exchanged for Vietnam during a big deal, so as not to have crap from their initiative.
    You feel better.
    We got better.
    The USA got better.
    Detente began.
    If you want to remember the power and capabilities of Soviet air defense, remember the War of Attrition, when the air defense division was transferred to Egypt in full force.
    Whose dust was peace then, and how much of it was left in the sands?
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Actually, in the 82nd the USSR was finally disaccustomed to dishonor with its help where it was not necessary.

    How much pathos and arrogance!
    Weaned you then. You defeated the Arabs and received from us (the air defense missile system was then transferred along with the calculations, and they chopped it up).
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Well, if they began to build in 2014 and have completed only 1, there is nothing to extrapolate. If you're lucky, by 2030 they will run around these 8 and start building an improved series, with electromotion and other fashionable things.

    Do not confuse the commissioning of the lead ship with the serial ones, keep an eye on the subsequent ones. And by the way, on 055 the electric movement is implemented.
    Yes, yes - four turbines of 35 hp per generation, with an eye to powering a combat laser and an electro-magnetic gun (for the future).
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    And after 15 you will need to see if the bourgeoisie will be able to shove the Chinese back under the bunk. Maybe they will build cruisers, or maybe they will eat each other. The Chinese are not the first to imagine a lot about themselves.

    But I do not mind so that they shove it.
    Shove!
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    The rate of laying 52D, 2-4 buildings per year - this is the rate of laying Berkov in the early 00s. Now the Americans are laying a little, they are switching to flight 3. When they do, it will be possible to look at the building. And yes, Burke Flight 3 is not 52d or even 55.

    What is bad about this pace, it is linked with the development of the Navy, and with other programs. They are being built in parallel with 055, aircraft carriers and UDC, the pace of construction from bookmark to delivery to the fleet is 4 years. 4 pieces per year for 10 - 15 years? Good pace.
    And they (the Chinese) are building / building a large number of frigates. From CD. Quite a few escorts. And the United States does not have frigates in a standing position - destroyers are chasing.
    052D is quite a decent destroyer, but the combat capabilities are written in Chinese (about the quality of weapons).
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    The catch-up development is very fast, but it has its limits. In the twentieth century, many were convinced of this.

    Well, show them the limits, I will observe with interest.
    And I won't even cry for the Chinese if you succeed.
    Go ahead.
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    bayard
    Not alteration, but further development

    Oh, well, OK. Developed to a minitman. Almost. How old is the Minuteman there, you said?

    An analogue of the Minuteman was the Poplar, only it was mobile. Then there was "Topol-M", with better accuracy and means of overcoming missile defense. And only then - "Yars", with significantly increased capabilities and six warheads (up to ten less powerful).
    So what did you say about the Minuteman?
    But the rocket is really good for its time, and what is especially valuable is the possibility of reloading TT in engines.
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Because you don’t? Because, unlike we will not say who, they do not shout about nuclear ash at any opportunity? Because they have a gigantic lead over the rest of the world in terms of conventional weapons?

    If American headquarters think that way, I will be just happy.
    but they think differently.
    And they are trying to solve their problem.
    But problems have accumulated over the past three decades and we have to solve everything at once.
    And I think they will solve many problems.
    If they survive the current elections.
    This is not easy.
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Yes Yes. At the same time, the bourgeoisie AFAR is already being shoved into the Kyrgyz Republic, and the Soviet government did not even have time to put it on airplanes. It’s ridiculous to talk about anti-Soviet power, it’s not about AFAR at all.

    AFAR is not a panacea in every case. Power, sensitivity, sidelobe problems ... Sometimes PFAR is preferable.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 1 November 2020 03: 28
    0
    Quote: bayard
    the result of the work of the Syrian air defense for a certain period.

    The result of the work of the Syrian air defense - 1 F16D, board 838, February 2018. All. Tell the Octobrists about the affairs of 50 years ago.
    Quote: bayard
    studied on battle maps in his headquarters - it was a busy time.

    The case will be closed - the cards tell the truth! (from).

    Secret documents arrived, not surprised.
    Quote: bayard
    keep staying

    The current great air defense personnel have two wunderwales 1 ZGRLS 2 REB. Because with everything else, it is almost impossible to deny, and this cannot be checked.
    Quote: bayard
    It is not for you to judge the usefulness of the type of troops

    What a nuisance.
    Quote: bayard
    They tried to rectify this situation later, raising the AWACS tethered airships.

    The further, the more terrifying. Particularly striking is the presentation for AWACS in the 50s.
    Quote: bayard
    We know, we know - they have never had this kind of troops separately.

    In fact, we are talking about the fact that air defense is engaged in aviation. And so far I have never failed.
    Quote: bayard
    emergency deliveries of air defense systems, incl. S-200 stopped the war.

    Oh, there it was. It's time for amazing stories.
    Quote: bayard
    We and Egypt at one time exchanged for Vietnam during a big deal

    What a twist!
    Quote: bayard
    War of Attrition, when an air defense division was deployed in full force to Egypt.

    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Vietnam and Egypt, 60s and early 70s. War with an unprepared enemy.

    Quote: bayard
    Weaned you then

    What a funny interpretation of the Arab-Israeli conflict. It turns out that the Soviet Union won the war in 82. You don't often hear that.
    Quote: bayard
    Do not confuse the commissioning of the lead ship with the serial ones, keep an eye on the subsequent

    55th? There are none yet.
    Quote: bayard
    4 pieces per year for 10 - 15 years?

    2 to 4, differently.
    Quote: bayard
    There are no frigates in the United States - destroyers are chasing.

    Fixed.
    Quote: bayard
    Well give them the limits

    A country catching up is like a ship following an icebreaker. Yes, she can stay right behind. Some time.
    Quote: bayard
    but they think differently
    Everybody wants money.
    Quote: bayard
    Sometimes PFAR is preferable.

    Of course it happens. When only she is.
  • bayard
    bayard 1 November 2020 05: 02
    +1
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    In fact, we are talking about the fact that air defense is engaged in aviation. And so far I have never failed.

    Precisely not once?
    And 911?
    The Pentagon and three skyscrapers?
    Are you sure you didn't?
    Oh yes - one was shot down.
    So it was Boeings, but what if CD?
    Yes, maybe more?
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Oh, there it was. It's time for amazing stories.

    Quote: Cherry Nine
    What a twist!

    Quote: Cherry Nine
    What a funny interpretation of the Arab-Israeli conflict. It turns out that the Soviet Union won the war in 82. You don't often hear that.

    I didn't win, but stopped.
    That was enough for us.
    Before that, Egypt pestered us with its wars, then Syria, but after the 82nd they calmed down, and we built an air defense system for them.
    Now here is the same story with Armenia - she was eager to fight, bullying her offended neighbor, now she is raking in Karabakh and will probably lose him. When it loses, we will ensure its territorial integrity (everything according to the agreement) - within its legal boundaries.
    It was the same with Syria - you plastered with her in Lebanon?
    There she got it.
    And we strengthened its borders, provided air defense and further peaceful development.
    And we did not sign for the Wishlist and the adventures of our partners - these are their sovereign rights and a rake.
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    bayard
    Sometimes PFAR is preferable.

    Of course it happens. When only she is.

    And at the same time it copes quite satisfactorily. However, on the S-500 already AFAR, on the Su-57 - too, on the MiG-35 they promise the same. But the same "Irbis", although it is PFAR, but in terms of energy, it will be much more powerful than the AFAR "Raptor" and "Penguin".
    Kalash is much simpler and cheaper than M-16, but in war it is preferred.


    You are cheerful companion ...
    Quote: Cherry Nine

    The result of the work of the Syrian air defense - 1 F16D, board 838, February 2018. All. Tell the Octobrists about the affairs of 50 years ago.

    In Syria, we are talking about the percentage of targets hit from those involved in the raid, and not about the number of aircraft shot down. The Syrians are fighting more and more with your drones, KR and planning bombs. They are not beating you over Lebanon and Israel - they are not up to it now.
    And the prescription on the maps of those was 60 years old, and maybe more (from the present time) - the whole post-war history of violations of the air border. Before the United States had U-2, they used the British for reconnaissance of the Canberra - because of their altitude - 16, 17 and even up to 19 km. the train was held. And the "Phantom" to Gabala in our area of ​​responsibility broke through, then it was the first in history to ram the jet Gennady Eliseev on Mach 1,4 and shot it down on the MiG-21 - at the cost of its own life. I took off from Kurdamir.
    But after that incident, there was not a single violation attempt from the adjacent side. It was three times since our time (two with me) - a navigation error. But because the border cover was simply brutal, absolute control of the border zone at low altitudes, super-dense saturation with fire weapons, interceptors in operational readiness (MiG-25 regiment) and a Mi-24 squadron to intercept low-speed intruders like Rust.
    Hyperbole about oversaturation, this is from the present bell tower, at that time it was practically the nominal density in the border zone. The low-altitude echelon was controlled without any A-50 by saturating the theater of operations with radar units. And this is in the highlands.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 1 November 2020 07: 21
    -1
    But the same "Irbis", though PFAR, but in terms of energy, the AFAR "Raptor" and "Penguin" will be much more powerful.

    I love such sweeping statements smile
    Irbis has a power of 10 kW, Raptor radar - 20 kW.
    The first forms one beam with which it scans. The second - maybe 1 higher power, 2 beams of the same power, or much more lower power.
    Irbis - "power overwhelms." good
    At the same time, it is much better than the "Zaslon-M", to which the titles of "flying AWACS" are hung here.
  • bayard
    bayard 1 November 2020 15: 21
    0
    Focusing, detection range, problems with lateral movement of the PAR elements?
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 1 November 2020 08: 09
    0
    Quote: bayard
    Precisely not once?
    And 911?

    You are right, Soviet air defense helps very well against passenger airliners.
    Quote: bayard
    And we strengthened its borders, provided air defense and further peaceful development.

    Uh
    Yes, Syria's peaceful development is impressive. Thanks to the Soviet government. Although stop, Andropov is there. Something doesn't stick.
    Quote: bayard
    S-500 already AFAR

    He exists?
    Quote: bayard
    Su-57 - too

    On paper.
    Quote: bayard
    on the MiG-35 they also promise

    To promise - not to roll bags. As well as the entire MiG-35 as a whole.
    Quote: bayard
    Kalash is much simpler and cheaper than M-16, but in war it is preferred.

    A normal person should take a Kalash in his hands. Weapons of blacks and collective farmers. As for M16, it showed that the elves are not doing well either, let's face it. There is very much someone to shoot. More precisely, to score with butts, as this thing will not shoot.
    Quote: bayard
    In Syria, we are talking about the percentage of targets hit among those involved in the raid, and not about the number of aircraft shot down.

    "Write more, why pity them, busurman!"
    Quote: bayard
    "Canberra" English used

    I am aware of Canberra. They were shot down over the Caucasus in the 50s, very nice.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 1 November 2020 09: 08
    -1
    since this thing will not shoot.

    It's Complicated. M-4A1 differs from the first M-16. There is a video where the AK-74mi M-4A1 is immersed in liquid mud. The first one wedges, the second shoots. All due to the presence of the last cover of the ejection window of the sleeves, where the (74th) dirt gets, causing a wedge.
    The barrel resource of the M-4 is also greater; there is a test on the Kalashnikov website.
    A number of firms produce versions of the Ar-15 with a short stroke gas piston, devoid of the shortcomings of the tank model.
    And there is an adopted MTR (EMNIP) HK-416/417 with a similar gas mechanism.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 1 November 2020 12: 15
    -1
    Quote: 3danimal
    HK-416/417 with similar gas mechanism.

    I'm aware, thanks.
    Quote: 3danimal
    the presence of the last cover of the ejection window of the sleeves, where the (74th) dirt gets, causing a wedge.
    The barrel resource of the M-4 is also greater; there is a test on the Kalashnikov website.

    You complicate.
    ARKs proved to be a reliable and effective weapon, including in the South Vietnamese army, where they were supplied before the US Army. Stoner is not on the butts list, he did his job well.
    And there are employees of the Pentagon and the Colt company, which.
    1. They did not conduct full-fledged army tests of the product.
    2. The soldiers were not trained, or rather worse - they were trained incorrectly.
    3. Allowed the Colt to conduct even factory tests of rifles with commercial cartridges, and not with army cartridges.

    These three decisions led to the Vietnam disaster. Alas, I have never heard anyone answer for this. Despite the Congressional investigation, hundreds, if not thousands, of American corpses, the press, the courts, democracy, and other seemingly difficult circumstances to sweep under the rug.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 1 November 2020 07: 11
    0
    but patronized the countries of the Arab coalition.

    The Union, whose behavior was largely determined by ideology, had a talent for taking any rag-tag as its "allies". Remember: what did Syria and Egypt say when they lost the war for which they were pumped up with technology beyond measure? What is to blame ... the USSR, delivered bad equipment. Bravo good
    Or visiting and pioneering a cannibal dictator from Africa? am
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 31 October 2020 12: 21
    +1
    Quote: bayard
    And taking into account the fact that the shipbuilding capacity and the pace of laying / building new ships in China is 4 (!) Times higher than in the United States ... in 10-15 years the Chinese fleet will be equal to the American one.

    This cartoon is distributed by the Chinese themselves. In 10 years, the Chinese will have a maximum of 2 full-fledged AUGs against 10-11 significantly more powerful American ones (with 003 and 004 catapult aircraft carriers). Chinese Kuzi by American standards are closer to UDC America than to Ford. Well, except for the fact that they are not UDC. Essentially training ships.
    Quote: bayard
    SNF Russia looks much more interesting and confident than the United States.

    Russia's strategic nuclear forces look frightening. Scary in a bad way. Yars will rot and yok.
    1. Dart2027
      Dart2027 31 October 2020 13: 41
      +2
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      Scary in a bad way. Yars will rot and yok.

      Considering the fact that they entered service in 2009, it sounds strange.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 31 October 2020 13: 45
        0
        Quote: Dart2027
        they entered service in 2009, sounds strange.

        Well then, there is nothing to worry about, you are right. Full of time.
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 31 October 2020 14: 06
          0
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Ah, well then there is nothing to worry about, you are right.

          I know that.
    2. bayard
      bayard 31 October 2020 15: 13
      +1
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      This cartoon is distributed by the Chinese themselves. In 10 years, the Chinese will have a maximum of 2 full-fledged AUGs against 10-11 significantly more powerful American ones (with 003 and 004 catapult aircraft carriers).

      Where did you get this from? Do you think China will lay down the next aircraft carrier only after the delivery of the previous one? This does not happen and will not happen, especially in China. They turned on their printer and the next case will be laid barely having launched the previous one. And it was not for nothing that I indicated 10-15 years, during this period they may well have up to six full-fledged aircraft carriers (15 years) with catapults and commensurate with the American VI. Look at the pace of construction of their heavy "destroyers", and in fact, missile cruisers - there are already 8 of them afloat, and after all, the head was just sent to the running gear.
      And you also need to take into account the fact that China will not have to confront the entire US fleet (including aircraft carriers), but only its Pacific part. And this is 5 - 6 units, including those that are under repair and modernization (in 10 - 15 years they will be very old).
      Chinese "Kuznetsovs" with a springboard and without catapults can be regarded as training, but it can also be used as air defense aircraft carriers, for carrying out the boundaries thereof by 2000 km. from their shores. To do this, they will need coast-based AWACS aircraft, which China already has. They are actively working on an analogue of the Hawaiian for catapult aircraft carriers.
      And it's not just about the aircraft carriers. It was about the number and quality of ships of the main classes, of which China in 10 - 15 years will be no less than the United States (destroyers, cruisers, frigates, UDC).
      And in the end, the question is not which of them will have more of these ships of the main classes, but the quality is better, but that a new combatant has matured for the United States at sea, with whom we will have to fight, compete, fight.
      The Russian Federation will take a modest 3rd place at this celebration of life.
      Economy, s.
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      Russia's strategic nuclear forces look frightening. Scary in a bad way. Yars will rot and yok.

      Brad!
      If there is anything to rot, then the ancient Soviet "Voevods", for the "Stilettes" have already been removed from service (except for those from the warehouse, on which the "Vanguard" is now being installed), well, maybe also the "Topols", which are actively replacing the "Yars" - the latest domestic missile systems.
      Everything in Russia is just fine in this area - new missiles, new nuclear warheads - I don't want to fight.
      But in the United States, everything is not at all rosy, especially in the ground component of the strategic nuclear forces - how old is "Minuteman-2" \ "Minuteman-3"?
      That's it.
      And the warheads on them have long expired - over 30 years, and this is not even a technical one - the physical limit for a warhead.
      And there are no capacities and competencies to manufacture new ones. There is not a single radiochemical plant for isotope separation. request
      So it is not at all that the RF is "rotting". True, the Trident-2 missile is quite good, but with nuclear warheads there are exactly the same problems - by 2022 the last warheads manufactured in 1992 will exceed the maximum (!) Warranty periods.
      This is a harsh reality, which does not exclude, however, that the US fleet and aviation are still the most numerous and powerful in the world.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 31 October 2020 12: 12
    +2
    Quote: bayard
    No, in the videoconferencing of course a little better than in the navy

    And who is in command there? Motorized rifleman Surovkin, I think? This is not the one who once rode the BMP in Moscow?
    1. bayard
      bayard 31 October 2020 15: 29
      +1
      Surovikin.
      I don’t know what he rode there, but the fact that "well, he is not a pilot" and not at all from the air defense missile system ... Tankman-cosmonaut. He was promised the Russian Guard, but it so happened that the Aerospace Forces had to command. Apparently there is already a tradition - to lead the most important areas not by specialists, but by "effective managers". But for direct leadership, planning, etc., there is the chief of staff of the VKS and other specialists. They will help, prompt ... That's just about the importance of AWACS aircraft, he apparently skips a deaf ear ... The effectiveness of managers is apparently measured not by the level of combat readiness ... Well, yes, we do not understand this "sirem" ...
  • Constanty
    Constanty 30 October 2020 09: 19
    -2
    Destroyers of the Baltic Fleet in Baltiysk. Waiting for Polish shells ...


    Without exaggeration. Yes, the Polish authorities are stupid, but an attack on the Russian Federation would be a real suicide and the end of Poland.
    In any case - we have no real reasons for the conflict - neither disputed lands, nor significant minorities, as in Ukraine.

    The same Project 956 destroyers are a pity, because they are beautiful ships, the Chinese modernization shows that they can be used for a long time with an increased combat potential.
    1. timokhin-aa
      30 October 2020 09: 25
      18
      In any case - we have no real reasons for the conflict - neither disputed lands, nor significant minorities, as in Ukraine.


      But there is the USA. And with the United States there are plenty of reasons for conflict, first of all, the very fact of our existence. It will be necessary for the Americans to make a mess in Europe and Poland will climb into the fire.
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 30 October 2020 10: 01
        -3
        above all the very fact of our existence

        And what is wrong with the fact of existence?
        Don't you think that this statement is just a mutated version of "the imperialists want to strangle the young socialist state"?
        And where in the United States is this adventurer dictator who will lead hundreds of thousands and millions of fellow citizens to death?
        1. timokhin-aa
          30 October 2020 10: 05
          12
          No, this is the driving force behind the expansionism of the Anglo-Saxons - the inability to accept the fact of the existence of other cultures as equal to them in status and independent. They just can't do it.
          In the US, blacks are still depressed (although incomparably better than 30-40 years ago) for this reason - they are different, and to admit that they are just people with equal rights is a real PAIN.
          1. Niel-le-Calais
            Niel-le-Calais 30 October 2020 11: 09
            0
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            inability to accept the fact of the existence of other cultures as equal to them in status and independent. They just can't do it.

            it is more of an excuse than a reason. They are still a global culture, and all at least be similar to them, regardless of their own. Therefore, they do not have the goal of destroying what is itself "destroyed" by globalism. For such is progress.
            The main thing here is the economy. To be similar in culture is basically the banal "live as well as they do".
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            they are different, and to admit that they are just people with equal rights is a real PAIN.

            this is right and responsibility. And participation in the economy.
            And not everyone is capable of mental feats in the economy. Colored people, feminists and others always have more rights and opportunities, which kills their competitiveness.
          2. 3danimal
            3danimal 30 October 2020 11: 40
            +1
            inability to accept the fact of the existence of other cultures as equal to them in status and independent.
            They just can't do it.

            Remind us who we call “blacks”, “Talabays”, “khachi”, etc. ? Is this a sign of acceptance as equals in status? They are called Russians. What does this say about us?
            for this reason - they are different, and to admit that they are just people with equal rights is a real PAIN.

            The progress with blacks is very significant, and this is not a reason to attack the Russian Federation with the inevitable large casualties.
            the driving force behind Anglo-Saxon expansionism

            I see in this theory the evolution of Soviet ideology. Which many (including the military) swore to defend, but for some reason they easily abandoned it, as if it did not exist. But the friction between the USSR and the United States is largely due to the conflict over ideology.
            1. unknown
              unknown 31 October 2020 08: 03
              -4
              Yes, there is no conflict over ideology.
              The thing is different.
              The most literate astrologer today has a well-developed historical theory. Which works.
              In his opinion, Russia is an Empire. And the USA is the totalitarian twin of the Empire. Shadow.
              The Shadow always strives to take the place of the Empire. But, there were no real precedents in history.
              Only short-term tactical victories are possible. The empire always wins.
              The lifetime of the Shadow directly depends on the Empire. When a country moves to a different cycle of development, the time of the Shadow passes.
              Russia must in 2025, from the Imperial path to the "Jewish", that is, the European. These are synonyms. The time of the United States as a Shadow will be gone. Iran will be the new Empire. He will have his own, other Shadows.
              1. 3danimal
                3danimal 31 October 2020 10: 49
                +1
                The most literate astrologer today

                I don’t believe astrologers, only hereditary magicians lol
                (Can you tell me the name?)
                In his opinion, Russia is an Empire. And the USA is the totalitarian twin of the Empire.

                What nonsense ... And the Russian Empire, Austro-Hungarian, British - who is whose shadow ??
                If the USA is a totalitarian double, then the USSR is a democratic original ?? What year were you born? Open Primer, Primer Companion:

                Totalitarian ideology from preschool age. In children's magazines there are inserts about the congresses of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and so on.
                1. nerovnayadoroga
                  nerovnayadoroga 8 November 2020 12: 24
                  0
                  Totalitarian ideology from preschool age. In children's magazines, there are inserts about the congresses of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and other things. An invented LIE !!!
                  1. 3danimal
                    3danimal 8 November 2020 16: 14
                    0
                    No, why not. Huge circulations were published about the CPSU congresses. In the kindergarten, they talked about "Lenin's grandfather" and others.
          3. unknown
            unknown 31 October 2020 08: 10
            0
            The funniest thing is that the FORTY PERCENTAGE of whites in the US are descendants of Germans.
            Another twenty-five million Russians. Irish, Italians, French, Poles, and other Swedes.
            There are not so many descendants of the British.
            As for the blacks, there are only 14 percent of them (and how many were there during the so-called abolition of "slavery"?), But they do not work, reproduce like rabbits, and live off the whites.
            The reason is that they have not evolved into such a society. Their level is the primitive communal system.
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 31 October 2020 10: 59
              0
              Before the abolition of slavery, the population of the United States was 31 million people, in the southern states there were 4 million slaves. Total - about 13%.
              By the way, there are noticeably fewer serfs in the Republic of Ingushetia in 1860.
              The reason is that they have not evolved into such a society. Their level is the primitive communal system.

              Only a part, a lot of those who work, and she / she rents an apartment, study at universities and colleges.
              There are a lot of idlers, I agree.
        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 30 October 2020 13: 04
          +5
          Quote: 3danimal
          And what is wrong with the fact of existence?
          Don't you think that this statement is just a mutated version of "the imperialists want to strangle the young socialist state"?

          )))
          This is it. Before the USSR, there was a master plan to exterminate the Holy Faith and the Orthodox People, so there is stability.
      2. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 30 October 2020 13: 17
        +4
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        It will be necessary for the Americans to make a mess in Europe and Poland will climb into the fire.

        If the Americans really want to kill a little bit of Russians that it is simply impossible to restrain themselves, then there are at least three locations where this can be done without a pale. ORDLO, Abkhazia, South Ossetia. Well, there are little things, Syria, PMR, Armenia, etc.

        By the way, if we are to raise the question of the final decision on Russia and the Russians, then Baltysk's attack with howitzers looks somewhat counterintuitive for solving such a large-scale task.
    2. timokhin-aa
      30 October 2020 10: 02
      +5
      Here is the level of US dependency
      http://www.compromat.ru/page_34692.htm
    3. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 30 October 2020 11: 24
      -1
      Quote: Constanty
      In any case - we have no real reasons for the conflict - neither disputed lands, nor significant minorities, as in Ukraine.

      the statement is completely wrong, and everyone knows the truth "the military, we must not forget about the constantly threatening danger to us, which will not stop as long as imperialism exists," the methods of imperialism and, first of all, American imperialism, are not only military domination and economic robbery over the colonies, but also their periodic plunge into chaos and anarchy Ukraine Belarus Syria Libya Iraq, division according to the method of divide and conquer (India Pakistan, Russia Ukraine, Ulster Britain ..., bombing according to the method so that others were scared of Vietnam Grenada Yugoslavia Libya Iraq ... now they do not hide their plans for the genocide of the Russians, the Chinese, the division into small weak fragments of all of Russia .... Thatcher's statement reads like this: "According to the world community, it is economically expedient to live in Russia only 15 million people." and are ready to fight for it to the last Pole or Ukrainian ... Council Secretary Dulles, who spoke at the meeting, said:

      “The war will end, everything will be settled somehow, it will be settled. And we will throw everything we have, all the gold, all material power or resources to fool and fool people ... Having sown chaos in Russia, we will imperceptibly replace their values ​​with false ones and make them believe in these false values. How? We will find our like-minded people, our assistants and allies in Russia itself. Episode by episode, the tragedy of the death of the most recalcitrant people on earth, the final irreversible extinction of its self-consciousness, will be played out, grandiose in its scale. From literature and art, for example, we will gradually erase their social essence. We will wean artists, we will discourage them from engaging in images, researching the processes that occur in the depths of the masses. Literature, theaters, cinema - all will portray and glorify the most base human feelings. We will in every possible way support and raise the so-called artists who will plant and hammer into the human consciousness the cult of sex, violence, sadism, betrayal - in short, all immorality. We will create chaos and confusion in the government. We will imperceptibly, but actively and constantly contribute to the tyranny of officials, bribe-takers, unscrupulousness. Bureaucracy and red tape will be elevated to virtue. Honesty and decency will be ridiculed and will not be needed by anyone, will become a relic of the past. Rudeness and arrogance, lies and deceit, drunkenness and drug addiction, animal fear of each other, and shamelessness, betrayal, nationalism and enmity of peoples, above all enmity and hatred of the Russian people - we will deftly and imperceptibly cultivate all this. And only a few, very few will guess or understand what is happening. But we will put such people in a helpless position, turn them into a laughing stock. We will find a way to slander them and declare them to be the dregs of society ... We will take on people from childhood, adolescence, we will always place our main stake on the youth, we will corrupt, corrupt, corrupt them. We'll make them spies, cosmopolitans. This is how we will do it. "

      The belonging of this text to A. Dulles was often questioned (see: M. Deutsch The sinister "Dulles plan": Intrigues of the chief of American intelligence or fake? // Moskovsky Komsomolets, January 20, 2005; The notorious "Dulles plan": fake or not? // Economic and Philosophical Newspaper. 2008. № 1. P. 2-5). However, many researchers believe that it is based on an original document, and the above text, if not in letter, then in spirit corresponds to the original (see: A. Krasnikov, How We Have Been Betrayed ... "The Fifth Column" is ahead of Dulles' chart // Soviet Russia, May 9, 1995, p. 13; Shiro-nin V.S.KGB - CIA: Secret springs of perestroika. - M., 1997. p. 77; Kochukov A. Allen Dulles - war after the war // Krasnaya Zvezda, October 28 2004; etc.). The head of the secretariat of L.P. Beria B.A. Ludvigov testified that information about Dulles's speech reached I.V. Stalin as soon as possible and caused a sharply negative reaction (see: Platonov O.A. Russia under the rule of Masons. - M ., 2000.S. 6, note). To date, there is information, albeit not of the most reliable nature (see: Zenkovich N.A. In the shadow of the Kremlin. - Smolensk, 2000, pp. 465-467, 526), ​​that information leaked about Dulles's proposals at the meeting SMO occurred thanks to the president's wife Eleanor Roosevelt and / or Roosevelt's personal secretary Loklin Kari (see: Shevyakin A.P. The Riddle of the USSR's death. History of conspiracies and betrayals. - M., 2004. S. 14).
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 30 October 2020 13: 23
        +3
        Quote: vladimir1155
        The belonging of this text to A. Dalles was often questioned

        This is actually a literary text with a well-known source. By the way, as far as I remember, in Russia he was recognized as extremist (by the Asbest city court), so be careful with quoting.
        Quote: vladimir1155
        thanks to the President's wife Eleanor Roosevelt and / or Roosevelt's personal secretary Locklin Kari

        But the fact that an incredible amount of Comintern scum was spinning around the FDR is beyond doubt, alas.
        1. frog
          frog 30 October 2020 13: 32
          +2
          Only the Comintern?
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 30 October 2020 13: 39
            +2
            Anything, but the Comintern did the maximum harm and made it the farthest. In particular, in the social group "Comintern scum" I include Wallace, the vice-president in 42-45, as well as at least some of the members of the FDR family. There is evidence, including Churchill's, that these people posed as the President of the United States in the last weeks or even months of his life.
            1. frog
              frog 30 October 2020 14: 40
              0
              Where will you put Hopkins?
              And, since we are talking about, how did these very "members" pass themselves off as FDR? Not for the sake of srach, curiosity only for)))
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 30 October 2020 14: 54
                +1
                With each week that passed after Yalta, it became increasingly clear that the Soviet government was doing nothing to fulfill the agreements reached between us on the expansion of the Polish government, which would include representatives of all Polish parties and both sides. Molotov stubbornly refused to express his opinion on the Poles we spoke about, and not one of them was allowed to even attend the preliminary round table meeting.

                Therefore, I addressed the President in the hope that we could jointly turn to Stalin in higher spheres. In the course of the lengthy correspondence that followed, the situation in Poland was outlined as the British and Americans had imagined it. At this critical moment, Roosevelt's health and strength dried up. In sending lengthy telegrams, I thought I was addressing my trusted friend and colleague, as I have been doing for all these years.

                But he could no longer listen carefully to my words. I didn’t know how sick he was, otherwise I would probably find it cruel to continue to pressure him. Loyal aides to the president have sought to keep information about the president's health within the narrowest possible circle, and various people jointly drafted responses that were sent on his behalf... As President Roosevelt's life was running out, he could only exercise general leadership and give his approval to these answers. It was a heroic endeavor. The tendency of the State Department, naturally, was to avoid aggravating problems at a time when the president was in such dire condition, and to place all the burden on the shoulders of the ambassadors in Moscow. Harry Hopkins, who could have provided personal assistance, was himself seriously ill [550] and was often absent or not sought help. These weeks have cost everyone dear.
                1. frog
                  frog 30 October 2020 18: 57
                  0
                  Mercy)) This is curious ...
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 30 October 2020 19: 29
                    +1
                    Well, the fact that in the States before McCarthy there was something very wrong has long been known. In particular, both sides willingly confirm that the Stirlitzians are scratching the atomic bomb, these are the same Stirlitz who in the 41st reported about German tank divisions of 300 tigers, and the atomic bomb that Truman did not know about, and I say not about Vice President Truman, you never know what he did not know, but about the chairman of the Senate Special Committee to Investigate the National Defense Program Truman, whom this financial black hole directly touched.

                    It is impossible to explain such a success of the Soviet regime with anything other than large-scale betrayal.
                2. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 30 October 2020 21: 32
                  +1
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Dedicated aides to the president strove to keep the president's health information within the narrowest possible circle, and various people jointly drafted responses that were sent on his behalf.

                  This is the last year of Vladimir Ilyich. smile
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 30 October 2020 21: 52
                    +2
                    Unfortunately no.

                    Anything can be said about Comrade. Trotsky, comrade. Stalin and other comrades, but that these were not at a loss when Vladimir Ilyich was not alive - for sure.

                    This is just the American tradition to keep a carcass or a stuffed one in presidents. They played like that with Wilson, with FDR, now they seem to be trying to choose a body right away so as not to risk it again.

                    This was not the case in the USSR, even under K.U. Chernenko. Still, collective leadership has its advantages. Late Yeltsin, maybe.
          2. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 30 October 2020 18: 27
            +1
            It should be noted that Mr. Churchill and his friends are strikingly reminiscent in this respect of Hitler and his friends. Hitler began the cause of unleashing war by proclaiming racial theory, declaring that only people who speak German represent a full-fledged nation. Mr. Churchill begins the process of unleashing war, too, with racial theory, arguing that only English-speaking nations are full-fledged nations, called upon to decide the destinies of the whole world. German racial theory led Hitler and his friends to the conclusion that the Germans, as the only fully-fledged nation, should dominate other nations. English racial theory leads Mr. Churchill and his friends to the conclusion that the English-speaking nations, as the only full-fledged, should dominate the rest of the nations of the world.

            Stalin, I.V. Reply to a Pravda correspondent // Pravda. - 1946 .-- March 14
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 30 October 2020 19: 22
              0
              Quote: vladimir1155
              The English racial theory leads Mr. Churchill and his friends to the conclusion that English-speaking nations, as the only full-fledged ones, should dominate the rest of the nations of the world.

              )))
              Well, the receiver "who is not with us is the fascist" comrade. Stalin mastered it quickly. This was not invented in 2014, far from it.

              However, I have to remind you that not one comrade Stalin played this game. Judging mustachioed effective managers by one measure was quite in trend both before the war and after, both in Europe and beyond.
            2. unknown
              unknown 31 October 2020 07: 53
              +1
              Racial theory is not a German invention, but a borrowing from Great Britain.
      2. 3danimal
        3danimal 30 October 2020 13: 37
        0
        Council Secretary Dulles, speaking at the meeting, said:

        “The war will end, everything will be settled somehow, it will be settled. And we will throw everything that we have, all the gold, all material power or resources to fool and fool people ...

        Let me tell you a terrible secret: the original source of Dulles' speech is the book Eternal Call. All. And then there are derivatives from it. A sort of "reverse cranberry", akin to horror stories about "Americans sneak blades into chewing gum" (invented to reduce interest in "capitalist crafts").
        And you were not too lazy to paint such a footcloth ... No.
        1. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 30 October 2020 16: 07
          0
          uv Ivanov received this information from his acquaintances in the KGB, .... I will answer with the words of Bl mtrp Ioann Snychev, poisoned in the opinion of many by Sobchak, "not that scary as it is written, scary as it comes true", so the agents of the State Department are trying in vain to convince me ... .. convince others if you are blind turn on the TV and compare.
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 30 October 2020 16: 59
            +1
            About getting drunk: now they drink less than in the Soviet Union.
            Ivanov received this information from his friends in the KGB

            Did the KGB have a department for ideology / disinformation?
            The fact is that apart from the book and the "rumors" from the KGB you mentioned, there is nothing.
            1. Vladimir1155
              Vladimir1155 30 October 2020 18: 19
              +1
              I repeat once again, it doesn't matter if Dulles said or thought, but all this happened and is happening, that is, it is the method of work of the masters of the world from the United States against other countries of the world and their population, this is the so-called mass culture of stupefaction capable of leading people to the Maidans of perestroika color revolutions in the interests of the us frs, to destroy national economies independent of the us, countries and their governments, most likely it was not Dulles who invented this, but Lippman, and he repeated it aloud or simply silently performed it at the behest of Lippman, it does not matter, it is important that it is and works
              1. 3danimal
                3danimal 30 October 2020 18: 43
                +1
                it doesn't matter if dulles said it or thought

                Or was it Ivanov's idea smile
                this is the so-called mass culture of stupefaction capable of leading people to the Maidan perestroika colored

                Let me remind you that this “mass culture of stupidity” of yours first of all spread to the USA. Doesn't fit. Or have they been captured by the "Reptilians?"
                and he repeated it aloud or simply silently performed it at the behest of Lippmann, it does not matter, it is important that it is and works

                I first decided to train on US citizens.
    4. unknown
      unknown 30 October 2020 11: 53
      +2
      But the Germans have real territorial claims to Poland.
      And there are no significant minorities in Poland, because the Poles destroyed these minorities: before the Germans, with the Germans, and after the Germans. And the Germans too.
      1. Constanty
        Constanty 30 October 2020 12: 15
        -4
        No - the Poles did not destroy minorities - the Jews were exterminated by Hitler and Germany, and the change in borders after World War II, the displacement of people and the loss of lands of today's Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine from Poland led to the fact that a significant minority was missing.

        You're right. In the case of Germany, there are some territorial disputes, much more serious than with Russia - this is also another foreign nation, and the Russians and Poles are Slavs.
        1. unknown
          unknown 31 October 2020 07: 51
          +2
          Learn the story.
          It was the Poles who destroyed the "Jews". We started it before the Germans, very actively helped the Nazis, and then continued after the Nazis.
          Therefore, Poland, the most "Jewish" country before WWII, became a state of mononation.
          1. pmkemcity
            pmkemcity 31 October 2020 09: 18
            +1
            add:
            After the liberation of Poland from the German occupation in 1944, the surviving Jews began to return. On August 10, 1944, the Committee for Aid to Jews was created in Lublin, later reorganized into the Central Committee of Polish Jews. Almost at the same time, Jews began to be persecuted by the Poles [31].

            Poles' reluctance to return Jewish property appropriated during the war and conflicts with the new government, which included Jews, caused numerous attacks on Jews - from November 1944 to December 1945, 351 Jews died from such attacks [32] [33]. Until the end of 1947, between 500 and 1500 Jews died [31].

            The largest anti-Semitic action was the pogrom in Kielce on July 4, 1946, during which 40 Jews were killed and about 50 wounded. The Kielce pogrom caused a massive migration of Jews from Poland. If in May 1946 3500 Jews left Poland, in June - 8000, then after the pogrom in July - 19, in August 000 [35]. The authorities attributed the pogrom to the "reactionaries", the Catholic Church, represented by Primate Hlond, blamed the Jews themselves for the pogrom [000].

            The expulsion of the Jews should, however, be viewed in the context of the general ethnic cleansing taking place in the country. The slogan "Poland for Poles" by the end of the 1940s. became not just an aspiration, but an accomplished fact. The process, which in just a few years destroyed the cultural diversity that had existed for centuries, took place in five stages: The first stage - the extermination of Jews, which was carried out by the Nazis, with the complicity of Polish anti-Semitism. The second is the persecution of Jews returning to Poland, which forced them to flee not only from Poland, but also from Europe in general. The third and fourth stages are the expulsion of Ukrainians and Lemkos in 1944-1946. and their assimilation during the special operation "Vistula", carried out in 1947. The final act is the expulsion of the Germans from the western regions annexed to Poland
  • donavi49
    donavi49 30 October 2020 09: 54
    +8
    Well, the Chinese do it because they can. They load alternative factories in this way, give load to specialized institutes, etc.

    They have several advantages over 956:
    - Own boilers + own control and automation system (made for aircraft carriers). That is, almost a demobilization in BC5 who wants to roll away from work has a minimum chance of ruining the installation, unlike the original 956.
    - Sloppiness, perhaps, improvisation in China is highly condemned. As the instructions say, they do it.

    And they not only apply the approach to 956, I repeat, here is a fresh 137. It will be completed as, probably, the second pair will go.


    We completely rebuilt Shenzhen, this is one of the destroyers of the 00s, which you can't look at without tears from the beginning.


    Now they are refitting Guadjou - 052V with a beam Calm, 16 anti-ship missiles, but with a new building, together with Nevsky and Almaz. It will be rebuilt into 2 blocks of mines, new missiles and will be altered brother.

    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 30 October 2020 10: 08
      +1
      Boilers - a disgusting system. Which of our ships often went on long voyages? - BOD with gas turbines. Everybody in the world makes ships of this displacement with this type of power plant.
      As for the "steam" - a heat recovery circuit is possible to increase the efficiency and cool the "exhaust".
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 30 October 2020 11: 04
        -1
        Quote: 3danimal
        a heat recovery circuit is possible to increase the efficiency and cool the "exhaust"

        this is a difficult and not easily solvable task even for stationary thermal power plants; in conditions of limited displacement, this does not make sense at all
        1. frog
          frog 30 October 2020 11: 39
          +3
          That's what TUKs were on Atlanta. Apparently, the union was completely stupid. We were engaged in solving difficult and difficult problems that did not make sense. Although .... This also happened))
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 30 October 2020 11: 44
            +1
            firstly, the efficiency of these fuels was not high, secondly, the cost of kerosene is an order of magnitude higher than the cost of fuel oil, thirdly, the degree of heat removal on the boiler is an order of magnitude more efficient than in the gtu, therefore, the heat of the exhaust gases from the boiler is much less than from the exhaust of gtu, therefore, to catch the low-potential the heat from the exhaust from the boiler is an order of magnitude more expensive than capturing the high-potential heat of the exhaust from the gtu, and the exhaust from the gtu is an order of magnitude cleaner than the smoke of the boiler, so all the heat exchangers there will be clogged with soot
            1. frog
              frog 30 October 2020 12: 08
              +1
              And what is all this for? You said that the task is just oh what. And not at all about the fact that in this case there is no special meaning in it. As well as there was no special sense in the KTU on Sarychi. But when did we have a sense and wishlist warriors interested in the military-industrial complex? Even without talking about rather strange Wishlist, sometimes. And not a single stump in this matter has changed, CHSH .....
              1. Vladimir1155
                Vladimir1155 30 October 2020 12: 54
                -1
                The problem of utilization of low-grade heat in large CCGT plants operating on gas is quite solvable, although it is difficult, it leads to a significant increase in the efficiency of power generation.However, in conditions of dirty fuel, low power and limitations on the displacement of EM, it is meaningless
              2. unknown
                unknown 31 October 2020 07: 47
                0
                KTU was installed not only on the 956 project, but all aircraft-carrying cruisers were also with KTU.
        2. 3danimal
          3danimal 30 October 2020 11: 43
          0
          So I wrote "possible" smile
          It is not on Berks. But there is an exhaust cooling system (for less IR visibility and equipment heating).
          In general, we must rely on the successful experience of our own and developed countries. It was the series of patrol boats / BODs with gas turbines that were successful.
      2. Cympak
        Cympak 30 October 2020 11: 27
        +6
        EM pr 956 during the Soviet era were actively exploited and ran on long trips, for example, 8 OPESK. IMHO problems arose after the collapse of the USSR, when the plundering of the fleet began abruptly and the quality of operation of the power plant decreased. The Chinese have no problems with boilers. Gas turbines for the Navy, manufactured in Ukraine. Until the "red rooster" killed our "withers", no one thought to organize the production of turbines and gearboxes for them in Russia.
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 30 October 2020 11: 47
          -4
          EM pr 956 during the Soviet era were actively exploited and ran on long trips, for example, 8 OPESK

          They ran, but the most practical were the "singing" watchdogs and BOD 1155 with GTU. In addition, IMHO, our KTUs were not as reliable as Babcock and Wilkes.
          Until the "red rooster" killed our "withers", no one thought to organize the production of turbines and gearboxes for them in Russia.

          If the leadership of the Russian Federation did not agree to "annex" the territory of a weakened neighbor and support "Ichkeria in the South-East", Zorya would continue to supply gas turbines.
          1. timokhin-aa
            30 October 2020 16: 26
            +4
            Not a fact never.
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 30 October 2020 17: 06
              -1
              Why? Would the fascists not let the contracts continue to be fulfilled?
              IMHO, we did it because we wanted to and could, did not consider it necessary to calculate the consequences (why).
              Who said that adventurism, short-sightedness, exists only in the Ministry of Defense, shipbuilding programs, etc.?
              1. timokhin-aa
                30 October 2020 17: 23
                +2
                Why? Would the fascists not let the contracts continue to be fulfilled?


                They would not have allowed to conclude new ones.
                1. 3danimal
                  3danimal 30 October 2020 18: 08
                  0
                  And where are these fascists in power?
                  In the parliament of 2014, 5% belongs to the "Radical Party" (which is not the Right Sector).
                  Now she or similar parties have 0 seats.
                  Marginal people have been and remain. Yes, they took part in the Maidan, but received very few recognition from fellow citizens.
                  They would have scandalized the maximum. Although the loss of territories came into their hands from the point of view of some strengthening of their positions.
                  1. alexmach
                    alexmach 31 October 2020 01: 21
                    0
                    Now she or similar parties have 0 seats.

                    What do you mean, but what about Poroshenko's party, which is actually preparing for revenge again. And there was also some kind of "self-help"
                    1. 3danimal
                      3danimal 31 October 2020 03: 05
                      0
                      Poroshenko's party

                      Yeah, "European Solidarity", directly analogous to RNU or Right Sector smile
                      And what about Samopomich? So you can call any party "fascist", just to justify the television postulate "Ukraine was captured by foshizds." Where are they and where is their support from citizens?
                      Let me remind you, by the way, that the NSDAP in 1933 received no more than a third of the votes. Hitler "twisted the arms" of Hindenburg and got the post of chancellor and an additional seat in parliament. Then ... he canceled the elections. Such people do not like competition (this is their similarity with the Bolsheviks, by the way).
                      1. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 31 October 2020 07: 01
                        +1
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Yeah, "European Solidarity", directly analogous to RNE or the Right Sector smile
                        And what about Samopomich? So you can call any party "fascist", just to justify the television postulate "Ukraine was captured by foshizds."

                        Ukraine was captured by the United States.
                      2. 3danimal
                        3danimal 31 October 2020 07: 13
                        -1
                        And where is the American occupation administration, the commandants of the cities? (By analogy with Iraq after 2003) Why are there presidential and parliamentary elections?
                      3. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 31 October 2020 08: 39
                        +1
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        And where is the American occupation administration, the commandants of the cities?

                        Administration in the embassy, ​​and commandants in the cities are not needed, because Ukraine is not Iraq.

                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Why are presidential and parliamentary elections taking place?

                        And what changes from them, if you can choose only from those who will be approved there.
                      4. 3danimal
                        3danimal 31 October 2020 08: 58
                        -1
                        if you can only choose from those who will be approved there.

                        How reliable are your sources of information? So you can talk about any objectionable government.
                        Administration at the embassy

                        So after all, we also have THEIR embassies smile (urgently needs to be banned)
                        because Ukraine is not Iraq.

                        Even the Iraqi government is functioning well and is pushing solutions that are beneficial to its country. In particular, American companies lost the tender for oil production, and the share of deductions from production is much higher than originally proposed.
                        And with regards to Ukraine, there were no commandants and the Military Administration even temporarily.
                        There was one president, now another was chosen.
                        The right sector is not represented in parliament.
                        Logic, search for information (instead of using ready-made information blocks of engaged media outlets) make it possible to form a correct picture.
                      5. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 31 October 2020 11: 03
                        0
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        How reliable are your sources of information?


                        Quote: 3danimal
                        So after all, we also have THEIR embassies

                        Yes, but they do not manage to manage.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Even Iraqi government is functioning well

                        To the extent that he is allowed. China is a serious enough uncle to move the Americans.
                      6. 3danimal
                        3danimal 31 October 2020 11: 22
                        -1
                        So it is China that produces oil there? And the companies are Dutch and British.
                        if you can only choose from those who will be approved there.

                        How reliable are your sources of information? So you can talk about any objectionable government.

                        About cookies: this is a photo during the protests against Yanukovych, with the protesters in the background.
                        These are your compelling arguments for the capture of Ukraine by the United States ?? Were the enchanted cookies ??
                        (“Skobeeva and co” told you, so it’s true ..?
                      7. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 31 October 2020 13: 46
                        0
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        So it is China that produces oil there?

                        I remember in 2009 the Chinese climbed there, but the British and the Americans are in very close relations, and it is not in vain that they talk about the Anglo-Saxon world.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        this is a photo during protests against Yanukovych, against the background of protesters

                        But no one could clearly explain why this whole circus with protests was needed, if Yanukovych could be safely removed in a year. "Conspiracy theory, however."
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Skobeeva and Co told you
                        And who tells you?
                      8. 3danimal
                        3danimal 31 October 2020 15: 19
                        0
                        I remember the Chinese got there in 2009

                        So you don't have to remember, but look at which companies are engaged in mining.
                        But no one could clearly explain why this whole circus with protests was needed, if Yanukovych could be safely removed in a year. "Conspiracy theory, however."

                        People's love, obviously request
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Skobeeva and Co told you
                        And who tells you?

                        Thank you for not denying it.
                        The numbers tell me. Deputy seats in the Rada in 2014 and the current convocation. Change of presidents, struggle between them in the elections.
                        The absence of American military commandant's offices in the "occupied" cities smile
                      9. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 31 October 2020 18: 04
                        0
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        look at which companies are mining

                        Lukoil and Gazprom Neft? They have the RF behind them.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        People's love, obviously

                        That is, there is no clear answer.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Deputy seats in the Rada in 2014 and this convocation. Change of presidents, struggle between them in the elections.

                        And the fact that nothing has changed from the change of presidents.
                      10. 3danimal
                        3danimal 31 October 2020 18: 44
                        0
                        Lukoil and Gazprom Neft? They have the RF behind them.

                        There are no Russian companies there. And they are far from the largest in the world list.
                        The Iraqi government has set tough conditions, severely limiting the share of companies from each barrel (and it still has to pay taxes from it)
                        https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/1254870
                        Read.
                        that from the change of presidents nothing has changed.

                        What should have changed, in your opinion?
                        But no one could clearly explain why this whole circus with protests was needed, if Yanukovych could be safely removed in a year. "Conspiracy theory, however."

                        That is, there is no clear answer.

                        Answer: tired, IMHO. Refused to sign an association agreement, dispersed some protesters too harshly - and away we go. Unlike a number of countries, there were certain "traditions" of protests (successful, by the way). For example, in 2004.
                      11. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 31 October 2020 20: 09
                        0
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        There are no Russian companies there.

                        https://russiancouncil.ru/blogs/innarodina/interesy-rossiyskikh-neftyanykh-kompaniy-v-irake/
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        What should have changed, in your opinion?

                        Politics.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Answer: tired, IMHO. Refused to sign an association agreement, dispersed some protesters too harshly

                        And how did you sign the association? And what does the USA have to do with it?
                      12. 3danimal
                        3danimal 31 October 2020 20: 37
                        0
                        Policy

                        Internal, external? In what capacity?
                        And what does the USA have to do with it?

                        I don’t know why? An employee of the administration gave food to the protesters, statements were made in the spirit of "you must not violently disperse the peaceful" (and at first there were just peaceful ones).
                        And how did you sign the association?

                        Signed by EMNIP. And they made visa-free travel (for Europe) for citizens.
                      13. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 31 October 2020 21: 52
                        0
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Internal, external? In what capacity?

                        As the collapse of what is left of the country.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        An employee of the administration gave food to the protesters, statements were made in the spirit of "you cannot violently disperse the peaceful" (and at first there were just peaceful ones)

                        She has nothing to do.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Signed by EMNIP. And made visa-free

                        The visa-free regime will grant Ukrainian citizens the right to stay in Europe for a period of 90 days during each 180-day period. The document does not give the right to live, work or study in the EU.
                        Is this one? Well, what does he give?
                      14. 3danimal
                        3danimal 31 October 2020 22: 22
                        +1
                        As the collapse of what is left of the country.

                        You know, there are economists who have been predicting the imminent collapse of the United States for 15 years. And there are many prophets of the end of the world (analogy).
                        Look at the indicators: despite the "Ichkeria", which we support in the southeast (imagine if Turkey provided something similar to Chechnya in the 90s), the economy is recovering.
                        And our losses due to all this exceed the profit.
                      15. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 1 November 2020 07: 29
                        -1
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        You know, there are economists who have been predicting the imminent collapse of the United States for 15 years.

                        In which things are getting worse, and according to the Americans themselves.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        And our losses due to all this exceed the profit.

                        So what is the RF debt?
                      16. 3danimal
                        3danimal 1 November 2020 07: 40
                        0
                        So what is the RF debt?

                        What does debt have to do with it? Problems with many foreign components (how to buy cool MTU diesel engines? And GTU Zorya?). Sanctions, even more harmful counter-sanctions (“a rich neighbor reduced my income, but I beat up my family in spite of him”) all this lowers the standard of living of citizens (ask the statistics).
                        And there is a good chance it will get worse.
                        In which things are getting worse, and according to the Americans themselves.

                        Problems "along the way" that are being solved. GDP continues to grow, there has never been a default, investments are going on, etc.
                      17. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 1 November 2020 12: 59
                        0
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        What does debt have to do with it?

                        That is, the country is not in debt, like some.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Problems with many foreign components (how to buy cool MTU diesel engines? And GTU Zorya?)

                        Which allowed us to calmly develop our production. And if the German diesel engines are really of very high quality, then some kind of Zarya could have been replaced ten years earlier, if they hadn't been babysitting the "fraternal peoples".
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Problems "along the way" that are being solved.

                        The work of the printing press, but judging by the persistent attempts to arrange another global fight, it turns out so-so.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Sanctions, even more harmful counter-sanctions (“a rich neighbor reduced my income, but I beat my family in spite of him”) all this lowers the standard of living of citizens (ask about statistics).

                        Judging by the fact that I see something imperceptibly.
                      18. 3danimal
                        3danimal 1 November 2020 14: 16
                        0
                        That is, the country is not in debt, like some.

                        Their debt in the region of 100% of the (huge) GDP is considered a safe level. And approximately from 2/3 to 3/4 - internal debt, which can always be settled.
                        Japan has a debt of about 300% of GDP, safe and sound. Let's do this: Japan will fall, it will be possible to discuss the fall of the United States smile
                        Which allowed us to calmly develop our production.

                        You cannot do EVERYTHING at the level of world leaders, especially in a fairly limited economy. (Despite the promises of the president, she was not included in either the top 10 or the top 5)
                        And if the German diesel engines are really of very high quality, then some kind of Zarya could have been replaced ten years earlier, if they hadn't been babysitting "fraternal peoples".

                        You can try to replace everything. Irons, washing machines, etc. GTU Zorya is still better in terms of reliability and resource, but it is always possible to reduce the requirements for equipment. Do not overclock too much, more often take repairs.
                        There was an example with Chinese diesel engines - it turned out generally sad. As I understand it, it was not worth bringing them to maximum power at all (EMNIP, I had to use the tug).
                        With Kolomna, I hope it will be better over time. The main thing is that there is no eyewash with regards to the characteristics of the products (the tug is not always at hand).

                        https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3596032.html

                        It is significant that Chinese EVs use the LM-2500, which are among the best in the world. But ... they won't be sold to us either.
                        Judging by the fact that I see something imperceptibly.

                      19. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 1 November 2020 14: 27
                        0
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        which can always be settled

                        Simply put, advanced economics is about printing money out of thin air.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        You cannot do EVERYTHING at the level of world leaders, especially

                        Is this Zarya a world leader? Really?
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        GTU Zorya is still better in terms of reliability and resource
                        According to those who work on it.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        It is significant that Chinese EVs use the LM-2500

                        Only outdated series, new on QC-280.
                      20. 3danimal
                        3danimal 1 November 2020 14: 36
                        0
                        Is this Zarya a world leader? Really?

                        Inferior to GE and Rolls-Royce, but at a good level.
                        advanced economics is about printing money out of thin air.

                        Among other things, this is $ 1,64 trillion in exports last year. Study:
                        https://trendeconomy.ru/data/h2/UnitedStatesOfAmerica/TOTAL

                        https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Экономика_США

                        It is significant that the income from the role of the reserve currency is not that great (in comparison with their federal budget ~ $ 3500 billion) - about $ 40 billion.
                        Only outdated series, new on QC-280.

                        A forced decision, the United States interrupted supplies. And ... Zorya helped.
                        https://naukatehnika.com/esmincy-i-turbiny-podnebesnoj-ukrainskie-texnologii-kitajskaya-snorovka.html
                      21. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 1 November 2020 16: 13
                        0
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Inferior to GE and Rolls-Royce

                        That is, it is still holding on to the remnants of the reserve from the USSR.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Among other things, this is $ 1,64 trillion in exports
                        I read
                        Aggregate U.S. imports totaled $ 2,56 trillion in 2019.
                        Have you read it yourself?
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        And ... Zorya helped.

                        So back in the 90s, the Chinese in Ukraine bought everything they could for a penny. The fact is that they have not needed Zarya for a long time.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Forced decision

                        Based on unwillingness to depend on potential adversaries.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        that the isolationist United States orchestrated two world wars

                        Given the fact that they were the only ones to make a clear profit, this is a good question.
                      22. 3danimal
                        3danimal 1 November 2020 18: 26
                        0
                        Have you read it yourself?

                        I read it, but I was interested in export.
                        This is about the fact that they do not produce anything, but only print dollars.
                        (Objectivity)
                        That is, it is still holding on to the remnants of the reserve from the USSR.

                        On the same topic, there are versions that the Russian Federation is also "eating up the reserves" of the Union (of course, without developing or improving anything).
                        (Objectivity, again)
                        https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Зоря_—_Машпроект
                        Are developing.
                        So the Chinese back in the 90s in Ukraine bought everything they could for a penny.

                        In Russia too. Their space program in particular.
                        Based on unwillingness to depend on potential adversaries.

                        While they were being sold, they were buying.
                        Given the fact that they were the only ones to make a clear profit, this is a good question.

                        So you can come to the theory of "conspiracy, which is more than 2000 years old" smile
                        Very good location and shape of the device, attracting immigrants and promoting development.
                        How could Austria-Hungary in WWII or Nazi Germany in WWII threaten their territory and damage production and infrastructure? Already at the beginning of the 20th century, they had one of the most powerful fleets.
                      23. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 1 November 2020 19: 54
                        0
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        This is about the fact that they do not produce anything, but only

                        A small procedural detail - is it made in the USA or is it a company in the USA? It's like a question, because in fact Thais can produce something.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        I read it, but I was interested in export.

                        Of course, it turns out that your idols consume more than they produce.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        In Russia too.

                        Only in Ukraine it continues now.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Very good location and shape of the device, attracting immigrants and promoting development.

                        That is, in any case, they would have been the main beneficiaries, and the financial elites knew this very well.
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        While they were being sold, they

                        Type 052C destroyers, 2 gas turbines DA80 / DN80, the first ship of the series (DDG-170 "Lanzhou") entered service in July 2003.
                        At the same time, by itself, the design of the ship did not begin in 2003.
                        Remind me, what did the United States refuse to sell to the Chinese at that time?
            2. 3danimal
              3danimal 1 November 2020 14: 29
              0
              judging by the persistent attempts to arrange another global fight

              You will also say that the USA, showing isolationism, organized two world wars? smile
  • Kalmar
    Kalmar 30 October 2020 10: 37
    +3
    Table. Comparison of the hypothetical version of the modernization of the destroyers of Project 956 and BOD of Project 1155 ("Marshal Shaposhnikov")

    There is definitely no typo in the table in the line "Tactical anti-ship missiles" - 4x8 "Mosquitoes"? Where is so much space on it?
    1. unknown
      unknown 30 October 2020 11: 55
      0
      Apparently inaccuracy.
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 30 October 2020 10: 54
    -8
    dear Maxim Klimov, he poses the question himself and answers it himself, I would like to add that the very concept of a surface attack ship is flawed in the conditions of the Russian Federation, but in the conditions of the USSR it was a mistake. there was no need to create senseless aircraft-carrying and attack surface ships conceptually and visually obsolete back in 1905 in Tsushima. A surface ship is too vulnerable a target, aging faster than its age, which is perfectly shown both by Uv Maxim Klimov in this article, and Uv Alexander Timokhin in his research and publications. It was necessary to stop at frigates 1135, 1155, and continue their development in the same tasks, that is, coastal PLO under the umbrella of coastal means and as an addition to convoy and fish protection, etc. functions. Now it is already clear that all the cruisers and destroyers are not needed, but if the former at least retained their image and can replace the ASW frigate with a slightly more powerful self-defense, then the destroyers seem to be neither to the village nor to the city.
    1. unknown
      unknown 31 October 2020 07: 43
      0
      Are surface strike ships obsolete at Tsushima?
      And the battles of WWII and WWII?
      Yes, and the defeat at sea in the RYaV was caused rather by the general idiocy of the Russian naval command.
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 31 October 2020 09: 25
        -1
        Quote: ignoto
        the general idiocy of the Russian naval command.

        which consisted of many obsolete morally and technically surface ships with unusable artillery ... and a lack of combat training ... but how to place ships in battle was not the main mistake
        1. unknown
          unknown 5 November 2020 21: 45
          -1
          In the days of the USSR, there was such a tradition: to underestimate the characteristics of enemy equipment, and overestimate the characteristics of their own. This is especially evident in the example of WWII aviation. The data of the German aircraft were shamelessly underestimated, but ours were overestimated, and in a very simple way: instead of the characteristics of production copies, the characteristics of the reference were given.
          Similarly, but exactly the opposite, data from RYA ships are submitted.
          For example, out of six Japanese battleships, two were outdated, with a real speed of 15 knots, three carried Garvey's armor (why is it that Russian ships with this type of armor are immediately recorded in insufficiently armored, but Japanese?), And only the flagship of Krupp's armor. But, at the same time, it had a construction overload of 900 tons (battleships of the "Borodino" type had a construction overload of 678 tons, that is, for Russian ships this is bad, but for Japanese ships - good?). Armored cruisers are another story. Their real long-term speed - from 15 knots "Azuma", 16 knots "Yakumo" and 17 knots of the rest, "British" and "Italians". This is at the level of modern squadron battleships.
          Neither get away from them, nor provide proper opposition.
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 5 November 2020 22: 14
            0
            yes, I well know that in a number of parameters the Russian battleships were better, but they were fatally worse in terms of gunpowder and the type of shells, and they also lost due to the lack of real combat training in the Russian fleet. The main decision of the admirals was erroneous, they built a bunch of huge battleships, but there were few destroyers, it was the torpedoes of the destroyers that sank our ships, there were no minesweepers, so the first squadron was in the base, and why should the second go there if there were no minesweepers there either? it was the superiority in modern small ships that led to the victory of Japan, history repeats itself ... we have more huge surface cruisers than modern minesweepers now. the same stupid gigantomania of pink ponies who want something big for their vanity to the detriment of the unsightly, but necessary means of real war
      2. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 3 November 2020 10: 38
        0
        Quote: ignoto
        battles of WWII and WWII

        Here is a good illustration of the uselessness of battleships that stood at the base throughout the war, and in other countries it was even worse, they drowned in the very first battle ...
  • Charik
    Charik 30 October 2020 10: 57
    +7
    Kkhe-khe- "They Drowned" Please be understanding, the ruble exchange rate is absolutely not important. Tsap-Tsarap
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 30 October 2020 13: 29
    +2
    Two destroyers of projects 956E (modernized) and 956ME in the exercises ...


    And how I would like to see "The Russian Navy. And not the Chinese PLA." drinks
  • Tests
    Tests 30 October 2020 13: 36
    +3
    Maybe Gennady Aleksandrovich Suchkov was a young submarine officer and wonderful, but the commander of the Northern Fleet should have known that the average repair of "Admiral Ushakov" was carried out by "Zvezdochka" and not by SEVMASH. At the same time "Zvezdochka" modernized the BDRMs and diesel-electric submarines of the Indian Navy (including teaching them to work with "Calibers" along the coast), opened a workshop for cutting diamonds into polished diamonds. But it seems that the admiral was imprisoned only for cutting the dough of both the Northern Fleet and Oboronservis, having been convicted of negligence ...
  • exo
    exo 30 October 2020 14: 17
    +6
    The speed with which the Soviet legacy was squandered is staggering.
    I am sure there will be no conclusions. This is the specificity of thinking of current leaders.
    On the other hand, the pace of modifications to ships is horrifying.
    1. unknown
      unknown 31 October 2020 07: 39
      +2
      It's simple.
      It always happens.
      Revolutions are carried out only "from above".
      With overseas funding, and the support of the "fifth column".
      It is very convenient and profitable for the local "elite".
      Capital - offshore, and social obligations - zero.
      And to live on as a colonial administration in the colony.
  • Shadow041
    Shadow041 30 October 2020 14: 21
    +6
    The overhaul of the Project 956 destroyers will be too expensive, since both weapons and engines need to be changed there, and the hulls are not ideal. What is a boiler and turbine plant ?! This is a hemorrhoid that needs frequent maintenance. Those who worked for civilian boiler houses know that boilers do not live long without water treatment and regular repairs. The diesel engine reaches the operating mode in a few minutes, the gas turbine needs a little more, and the boiler-turbine plant needs 30-45 minutes to go into combat operation, which essentially puts an end to the constant combat readiness of such ships. On account of the vulnerability of ships at the bases of Kaliningrad, I agree, so this is solved by transferring some of the ships to the historical base of the Baltic Fleet, to Kronstadt and St. Petersburg. Instead of spending money on repairs and upgrades of the 956, it is better to build new 20350s.
    1. unknown
      unknown 31 October 2020 07: 37
      +2
      This requires serial production of gas turbines in Russia.
      And the destruction of the USC monopoly on the construction of Project 20350 frigates.
  • g1v2
    g1v2 30 October 2020 14: 53
    +3
    The project was definitely unsuccessful. Save him? Well then, it must be almost completely rebuilt, starting with the problematic power plant, weak weapons, and so on. 3-4 years for such an alteration, it's not even funny. The period of its reconstruction will be unambiguously comparable to the construction of a more powerful and modern frigate 22350. I think that the cost will also not be much less. Plus, we have a lot of where to rebuild them? In my opinion, the relatively budgetary conversion of 1155 into frigates is much better. Yes, after such an alteration, they will not become new and modern ships, but they will serve up to 45-50 years in a new quality. And then I hope that they will be gradually replaced at 22350m. It would be nice to modernize Atlantes, even on a budget, by extending their service life. Leaders will not appear to replace them very soon, and I have always liked the project. To spend funds, resources, man-hours, and most importantly valuable places on Sarychi, in my opinion, is stupid. The last three run off as long as they can, and then, alas. I hope that by that time the next 22350 will come. But it is not a fact that the Sarychi will live that long.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 31 October 2020 09: 38
      0
      To spend funds, resources, man-hours, and most importantly valuable places on Sarychi, in my opinion, is stupid. The last three run off as long as they can, and then, alas.

      Option - to sell to the Chinese, having repaired at their own expense.
      1. g1v2
        g1v2 31 October 2020 11: 40
        0
        The Chinese put the production of destroyers on the stream. In terms of shipbuilding capacity, they are the first country in the world. They definitely don't need them. This time has passed. But the Indians could, but they will certainly refuse. You can try to sell it to Vietnam or someone else like Egypt. But such countries do not really need destroyers. Frigates behind their eyes.
  • litus
    litus 30 October 2020 18: 47
    0
    Here Ushakov in the storm 9 points: https://vk.com/video205146231_170051715
    1. buka
      buka 30 October 2020 19: 28
      +2
      Talwar have been built since 1999, but only by others.
      And over the last 20 years of the government, new projects were built: 2 - frigates (GTE - Ukraine), 6 - corvettes (with air defense problems), 4 - 955, 1 - 885 and 1 - BDK. Do you have any thoughts or conclusions regarding these statistics ??? For 20 years !!!
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 31 October 2020 09: 41
        +1
        It was necessary to export $ 2 trillion abroad, to make 100+ billionaires, and you're all about the ships ...
  • Alien From
    Alien From 30 October 2020 19: 49
    +2
    Thanks to the author, an interesting, albeit sad article!
  • Sergey Sfiedu
    Sergey Sfiedu 30 October 2020 20: 33
    +1
    Late to drink Borjomi when the kidneys fell off
  • Eug
    Eug 30 October 2020 20: 50
    0
    I always believed that the main task of the EM project 956 was to monitor the enemy's AUG and prevent its combat work (of course, after receiving the appropriate order). And for this task 4 130-mm barrels and 8 Mosquitoes fit very well, and no "long arm" is needed. And the crews had to sacrifice themselves for the destruction of aviation and sea monsters.
    1. ZEMCH
      ZEMCH 31 October 2020 00: 05
      +6
      Quote: Eug
      I always believed that the main task of the EM project 956 was to monitor the enemy's AUG and prevent its combat work (of course, after receiving the appropriate order). And for this task 4 130-mm barrels and 8 Mosquitoes fit very well, and no "long arm" is needed. And the crews had to sacrifice themselves for the destruction of aviation and sea monsters.

      Not much is wrong))) Initially, the Navy ordered fire support ships for the landing of the Navy, as he wrote, this is exactly what it sounded in TTZ, only then they added Mosquito and just a little bit. Neither PLO, nor artillery, nor strike (although the Mosquito was a normal weapon at that time).
      In addition to the entire power plant, a steam turbine was chosen, because YuTZ was loaded with gas turbine engines for 1155, 1135 and gas pumping stations for the Urengoy - Pomary - Uzhgorod gas pipeline. And the capacity of the USSR was not enough for everyone, but the ships were needed)))
      And the problem was not in the quality of l / s, but in its absence. In 1991, the USSR collapsed, citizens of other republics left the service, the draft was reduced. In the 90s, for one exit to the sea, we gathered a crew from all over the compound to the states of peacetime, in one week all the hold ones left for demobilization.
      There were no repairs at all, there was no spare parts, no ASI was supplied, the bulbs were on one by one in the engine room, you can't put civilians, tk. on ship 127V)))
    2. 3danimal
      3danimal 31 October 2020 09: 48
      0
      And the crews had to sacrifice themselves for the destruction of aviation and sea monsters.

      This is secondary, the main goal is the victory of world communism smile
      I always believed that the main task of the EM project 956 was to monitor the enemy's AUG and prevent its combat work

      Wrong. Why then 2x2 AU 130mm? Obviously, the priority was to support the landing. A "medium-range" anti-ship missile system for self-defense is larger.
      1. Eug
        Eug 31 October 2020 12: 20
        0
        Goes to itself in peacetime on the sea AUG, behind it visually (or on the radar, from 18-20 km. - within the reach of artillery) EM pr. 956, AU 2 × 2 130 mm which are needed from a distance visual tracking, a couple of minutes after the start of hostilities, throw a dozen or a half shells into Nimitz and thereby interrupt the takeoff of the air wing after raising the maximum of the duty unit. Well, finish the case with Mosquitoes. Like after 18-20 km. those distances could already be directed to the mountain of steel ... I think so.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 31 October 2020 13: 43
          +3
          Quote: Eug
          which is needed in order to throw a dozen or a half shells into Nimitz from a distance of visual tracking in a couple of minutes after the start of hostilities

          Ugums. With a little clarification. EM cannot interrupt anything, he can only attack first. Moreover, in an absolutely peaceful time. Because in the threatened period, a huge AV will come off, leaving in the weather - it has the same speed, higher seaworthiness and cruising range. And at the beginning of the war by the Americans themselves, the buzzard will not tumble anything, it will take off first. Actually, this event will be the beginning of the escalation.
        2. 3danimal
          3danimal 31 October 2020 15: 07
          0
          It's naive. The distance is 18-20 km - this means that the 956th is being led, including the nuclear submarine. Have you seen what torpedo ships do with ships? And then there are EMs and escort cruisers, the SAM system of which is much more effective for working on a ship within the radio horizon (it does not miss).
          Before the flight of the aircraft, the EM will receive a pair of torpedoes and a dozen "Standards", having died heroically (but ingloriously).
          "Tracking with weapons" by a single ship made sense precisely from the position of tracking the location of AB, which could "get lost" and appear in an unexpected place. (Read about the teachings of their Navy in the Chukotka region in 1982).
  • Lexus
    Lexus 31 October 2020 03: 17
    +2
    "Bad dancer ..." (C)
    Alexander, thanks for the article!
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 31 October 2020 05: 01
    +1
    In the course of combat service in 1986 in conditions of high water and air temperatures, "Excellent" effectively won the race against two gas turbine ships of the US Navy KR URO CG48 Yorktown and EM DD970 Caron.

    The author overlooks an important quality of a gas turbine unit: a very quick access to maximum power from a “cold” state - only 15 minutes, versus 1,5-2 hours for a KTU.
    1. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity 31 October 2020 09: 30
      0
      Quote: 3danimal
      The author overlooks an important quality of a gas turbine unit: a very quick access to maximum power from a “cold” state - only 15 minutes, versus 1,5-2 hours for a KTU.

      If a ship is called "under steam", then giving power to the shaft is not a problem at all, unlike a gas turbine.
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 31 October 2020 11: 04
        0
        If the ship is called "under steam", then giving power to the shaft is not a problem at all

        Cunning: a gas turbine from a warm state is also not a problem to give power. Only the time to enter this mode differs at times.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 31 October 2020 05: 46
    +2
    We are not the only ones who can smoke. In the photo, the frigate LCS of the US Navy (with a gas turbine power plant)

    This is an extremely dishonest example: LCS in the photo is STARTING a GTU, which the author forgot to inform.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 31 October 2020 13: 37
      +3
      Quote: 3danimal
      LCS in the photo is STARTING GTU

      Not a gas turbine, but diesel engines of economical running after about a year's downtime, as far as I remember this particular photo.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 31 October 2020 06: 37
    -2
    The beginning of 2014, a coup in Ukraine. The Russian Navy receives a "knockdown" in the form of a refusal to supply gas turbine power plants for new ships and repair old ones. At the same time, a sharp aggravation of the military-political situation

    Do not forget that the aggravation of the situation was largely done by our leadership, who "annexed" Crimea and organized "Chechnya of the 90s" in the south-east of Ukraine.
    Which says, in particular, about the expert level of those who helped make such decisions.
    I repeat: I do not specifically consider moral and legal issues, only "profit-loss".
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 31 October 2020 06: 44
    +1
    Of course, the 53 cm torpedo tubes had to be changed to the "Package", and this was absolutely real.

    And what is wrong with 533mm torpedoes with UGST?
    1. unknown
      unknown 31 October 2020 07: 32
      0
      Yes, instead of torpedo tubes universal installations for firing torpedoes and torpedoes and PLUR "Vodopad-NK"
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 31 October 2020 07: 06
    +1
    Another drawback of the ЭМ 956 is the poor location of the helipad. As, however, and on the cruisers "Ticonderoga", due to the location at the stern of the AU (and the air defense system on the "Tik").
    IMHO, it was necessary to limit oneself to one AK-130 on the nose of the EM, or create a larger caliber AU (152mm), which would increase the firing distance and allow (in special situations) the use of atomic ammunition.
    1. unknown
      unknown 31 October 2020 07: 30
      +1
      On the site of alternative history there is a project for rebuilding Project 956 so that the helipad is at the stern. But, in fact, this is the construction of a new ship.
  • Clone
    Clone 31 October 2020 11: 08
    +1
    Conclusions? The guilty will not be found? And you don't need to look for them. "Each accident has its own last name, first name and patronymic" ... Kaganovich said at one time. Every decision is made with a specific signature. It is difficult to imagine what the "signatories" were guided by, besides personal interests. And this is impossible to justify.
  • fone
    fone 3 November 2020 16: 15
    0
    So much water about this old stuff ..
    Ships in the USSR were laid without calculating major upgrades, 956th one of them. The same applies to the armament of ships, no reserves for the replacement of launchers were envisaged. The beam launcher for the air defense system looked fine in the 60s, but in the 2010s it is as anachronistic as black powder. However, the Shtil-1 rocket was outdated, already in 2004 the potential enemy had an ESSM similar in range.
    The author assures that the modernization of the destroyer would have been done in three years - it's just ridiculous. To replace the boilers, half of the superstructure would have to be disassembled. The optimal period is approximately five years.
  • Most kind
    Most kind 4 November 2020 02: 55
    0
    We do not need the Fleet, we are a mainland country, if we do something with a vigorous bomb, well, or a rocket, well, if the rocket does not fly, then there are Bashirov, he will lay a land mine, again, you cannot take cargo on a destroyer to Syria, there they drive the bpk, they more campaign, we do not make our turbines and gearboxes, I am certainly not an expert, but earlier in Khabarovsk there was a plant named after V.I. Gorky, there seemed to be good gearboxes for submarines, they riveted turbines on Energomash, daldiesel engines sculpted, the Far East could safely provide the country with ships and submarines in case of war, but it didn't work out, Chubais hit, we handed out all the factories and drank, if we bought everything, but it seems like money is not being sold, now state-owned enterprises such as spetsstroy have finished, then if we hire and buy something, but if they don't sell and don't go, but they go constantly to be repaired, then what will foreign contractors do in it, and if sanctions and they will not do it, and where will you get specialists, well, have you built a plant, and will you bring workers from St. Petersburg? They will not go with our regularity, here the military serve with a temporary registration, they do not leave St.
  • ZEMCH
    ZEMCH 5 November 2020 22: 58
    0
    Was it possible to save the destroyers of Project 956?

    I will answer, then I will explain! Not necessary!
    The fleet that remained to us after the collapse of the USSR was created for a specific purpose, for the tactics and strategy of using the USSR Navy and with the country's production capabilities. Even then, the choice for the 956 power plant remained with the PTU due to the inability of YuzhMash to produce a gas turbine power plant for all projects and gas pipelines
    Now a different country, a different doctrine and economy is not "ice". Technology and production in other states (hostile through our fault and not ours, let's leave it in brackets)!
    From the point of view of the possibility and economic feasibility of modernizing the fleet we inherited, there is no point in restoring the production of something that we will not use later. You can write a lot about the missed opportunities to modernize ships in the 90s, but the fleet was solving other problems - it SURVIVED !!!
    Those who found this time in the Navy will understand me!)). Fuel for ships was given only for combat duty or critical exits to the sea. Ships that could not go to sea (for various reasons) were left without crew replenishment and without the possibility of maintaining combat readiness, they did not even stutter about repairs. It's sad, but true! Now it makes sense to build ships with a clear strategy for using the fleet and the inherent possibility of modernization. The time of the 956's, sadly, is over!
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 7 November 2020 20: 28
      +2
      Quote: ZEMCH
      Fuel for ships was given only for combat duty or critical exits to the sea. Ships that could not go to sea (for various reasons) were left without replenishment of crews and without the possibility of maintaining combat readiness, they did not even stutter about repairs. It's sad, but true!

      I would especially note one more - significant restrictions on shore power for turning the O&F ...
      incl. and for "living" ships (in combat)
      1. ZEMCH
        ZEMCH 7 November 2020 21: 33
        0
        Quote: Fizik M
        I would especially note one more thing - significant restrictions on coastal power supply for turning the O&T ...
        incl. and for "living" ships (in combat)

        And this is including))) good