Military Review

Frunze against Wrangel. The retreat of the White Guards from Tavria to the Crimea

90
Frunze against Wrangel. The retreat of the White Guards from Tavria to the Crimea
Vladimirov I. A. “Capture tanks near Kakhovka ". 1927 g.


A decisive battle took place in Northern Tavria a hundred years ago. The Red Army defeated Wrangel's Russian army. With great difficulty the White Guards broke through to the Crimea, having lost up to 50% of their personnel in battles.

The general setting


After a heavy defeat in the Zadneprovsky operation, White went over to the defensive. Meanwhile, the Red Army qualitatively and quantitatively increased its forces in the Crimean direction. First, Frunze came to an agreement with Makhno. The Makhnovists again sided with the Bolsheviks against the Whites. Makhno and his commanders fielded 11-12 thousand soldiers. At the call of Makhno, the atamans who joined him with their detachments and part of the peasants mobilized by White fled from Wrangel's army. The situation in the rear of the White Army deteriorated significantly, many insurgents and partisans in the Crimea and Tavria considered themselves to be supporters of the Makhno line.

Secondly, Poland made peace with Soviet Russia. Moscow had to give Warsaw the regions occupied by the Poles in Western Belarus and Western Ukraine, which were the consequences of the erroneous decisions of the military-political leadership headed by Trotsky (dreams of a red Warsaw and Berlin) and the mistakes of the high command and command of the Western Front headed by Tukhachevsky. The Blitzkrieg in the west ended in failure. However, the Red Army was numerically strong (5 million fighters on all fronts and directions) and significantly increased in quality, and the Poles understood this. They felt it in the fierce battles for Lviv, Warsaw, Grodno and Kobrin. The Polish leadership hastened to make peace until the Reds recovered from their failures, defeated the White Guards and pounced on Poland with all their might. The Second Rzeczpospolita was exhausted by the war and was in a hurry to emerge victorious from the war. Peace was concluded, troops from the Polish front began to be transferred to the South.

Third, the Soviet command made a powerful regrouping of forces in October 1920. 80-90 thousand people were transferred to the Southern Front. From the Western (Polish) Front, control of Lazarevich's 4th Army, Budyonny's 1st Cavalry Army was transferred, from Siberia - the powerful 30th Infantry Division (3 rifle brigades - each with three regiments, a cavalry regiment). The new 3rd Kashirin Cavalry Corps (5th and 9th Cavalry Divisions) has been formed. The number of Frunze's troops increased to 140 thousand people (there were 100 thousand people directly on the front line) with 500 guns, 2,6 thousand machine guns, 17 armored trains, 31 armored cars, about 30 aircraft. According to other data, the number of the Southern Front before the offensive consisted of 180-190 thousand bayonets and sabers, about 1 thousand guns, 45 aircraft and 57 armored vehicles.

Against the Red Wrangelites (1st and 2nd armies, shock group) could deploy about 56 thousand bayonets and sabers (directly on the front line - 37 thousand soldiers), over 200 guns and 1,6 thousand machine guns, 14 armored trains, 25 tanks and 20 armored cars, 42 aircraft. At the same time, the White Guards were drained of blood and demoralized by the just-completed defeat on the Dnieper. We did not have the opportunity to quickly replenish the ranks. The Red Army men, on the contrary, were inspired by the victory. The personnel structure of the Russian army by October 1920 had changed markedly for the worse. Cadre frontline officers, volunteers and Cossacks were driven out by incessant battles. In their place came former insurgents - "green", prisoners of the Red Army, mobilized peasants. The fighting efficiency of the army dropped sharply, many soldiers at the first opportunity tried to surrender and go over to the side of the Red Army.


Mikhail Frunze in the early 1920s

Party plans


Despite the heavy defeat and unsuccessful disposition of the troops, the large numerical superiority of the enemy (3-5 times), the dispersion of troops in different directions, the white command abandoned the idea of ​​retreating to the Crimea. Although the chief of staff, General Shatilov, proposed to withdraw the troops to the peninsula, fearing the encirclement and death of the army. It was decided to take battle in Northern Tavria. Wrangel underestimated the strength and capabilities of the Red Army, believed that his troops, as before, would be able to reflect the enemy's blow. Withdrawal from Tavria to Crimea deprived the White of important resources and room for maneuver. Also, the commander-in-chief of the Russian army proceeded from the political situation. The withdrawal of white troops to the Crimea could lead to the refusal of France to provide assistance to the whites. And put an end to the possibility of the passage of the White Guard units from Poland through Ukraine. This error in calculations hastened the defeat of the White Army.

The two-week hiatus allowed White to replenish parts at the expense of spare parts. But the replenishments were weak, "raw". Another reorganization of the army was also carried out. The 1st army of Kutepov included the 1st and 2nd corps, she held the defenses on the Dnieper and in the northern direction. 2nd Army - 3rd Army and Don Corps, covered the eastern flank. General Abramov was appointed commander of the 2nd Army instead of Dratsenko. The reserve was Barbovich's Cavalry Corps and the group of General Kantserov (formerly Babiev's group). Believing that the Reds would strike the main blow from the Nikopol area, in the 20th of October, Wrangel began to withdraw units of the 2nd Army to the southwest, to Chongar.

Frunze was in no hurry with the operation, he prepared it carefully. The command of the Southern Front developed an offensive plan based on the geographical features of the theater of operations. The troops advanced in converging directions to destroy the white troops in Northern Tavria and prevent them from leaving for the Crimea. The main blow was delivered by the Western grouping: the 6th Army of Kork and the 1st Cavalry Army of Budyonny. The western group was supposed to attack from the Kakhovka area in the direction of the isthmuses and Sivash, take Perekop and Chongar, cutting off the enemy from the Crimean peninsula. The northern group, Lazarevich's 4th Army and Mironov's 2nd Cavalry Army, struck from the Nikopol area to Chongar in order to smash, dismember and encircle the elite enemy troops (Kornilovskaya, Markovskaya and Drozdovskaya divisions, cavalry corps). Then the Northern group was to break through to the Crimea through the Chongar Isthmus. The eastern group, the 13th Army of Uborevich, from the Orekhov-Chernigovka region, inflicted an auxiliary blow on Tokmak and Melitopol in order to bind the enemy forces and prevent him from leaving the peninsula.


Main battle


White began the battle. On October 20, 1920, they tried to launch an offensive in the direction of Pavlodar. However, the Wrangelites got bogged down in battles with the Makhnovists and the 42nd Infantry Division of the 13th Army. On the 23rd, the Makhnovists and units of the 4th Army, having overturned the Northern Group of Wrangel's army, entered Aleksandrovsk. On the 24th the Makhnovists rushed along the rear of the Whites to Melitopol. Having broken through to B. Tokmak, Makhno turned sharply to the north-east and moved to Gulyai-Pole. This was a violation of the order. A stubborn battle unfolded for Gulyai-Pole, which drained Makhno's group.

On October 26, Mironov's army crossed the Dnieper in the Nikopol region, threw back the Kornilovites and occupied two bridgeheads. On October 28, the general offensive of the Red Army began. The operation was carried out in severe frost (unusual for these places) and a blizzard, which hid the movement of troops. The White army was unprepared for the "unexpected" onset of winter. There was no winter uniform. The soldiers, in order not to freeze, left their positions and went to the villages. Hundreds of fighters were frostbitten, morale dropped even more.

The Western grouping of the Southern Front achieved the greatest success. Two shock groups attacked from the Kakhovsky bridgehead: the 15th and 51st rifle divisions marched south towards Perekop; The 1st Cavalry and the Latvian Division were aiming southeast to link up with the 2nd Cavalry. The 6th Army, which attacked from the Kakhovsky bridgehead, broke into the defense of Vitkovsky's 2nd corps and moved to Perekop, driving the enemy in front of it. The breakthrough immediately entered the army of Budyonny. On October 29, the Reds took Perekop. The main forces of the whites in this direction retreated to the peninsula. The Reds went to the rear of Kutepov's 1st Army. However, the Red Army could not break into the Crimea on the move. The 51st division of Blucher, with the support of artillery, tanks and armored cars, stormed the Perekop fortifications, in places broke into the Turkish Wall, but was thrown back by an enemy counterattack. Reds in this area went on the defensive.

Army Budyonny, leaving behind the Latvian riflemen, deeply entered the rear of the enemy and was preparing to go to join Mironov's cavalry. The front command, believing that the 2nd Cavalry Army was successfully advancing and did not need help, ordered the 1st Cavalry Army to go south. Budyonny arbitrarily divided the army: the 6th and 11th cavalry divisions went north according to the old plan, and the army headquarters with the 4th and 14th divisions, a reserve cavalry brigade went south. This was a serious mistake, it was impossible to disperse the forces of the Cavalry. The Budennovists went to the Agayman region and on the Sivash coast, broke through to Chongar to cut off the Wrangelites from the peninsula. They intercepted the railway to the Crimea. As a result, the White Army fell into the "cauldron". Wrangel's headquarters in Dzhankoy was cut off from the front. The headquarters managed to order Kutepov to combine the forces of the 1st and 2nd armies and break through to the peninsula.

On the same day, the Crimean group of Makhno (5 thousand sabers and bayonets, 30 guns and 350 machine guns) broke into Melitopol. However, the offensive of the Northern and Eastern groupings of the Southern Front was halted by fierce enemy resistance. The 4th and 13th armies could not fulfill their assigned tasks, dismembering the enemy's defenses. The Reds pressed the enemy, Abramov's 2nd Army slowly backed away, clung to every line, and snapped hard. The 2nd Cavalry Army could not advance beyond B. Belozerka, getting bogged down in battles with three Cossack divisions.

On October 30, the Budennovites gained access to Crimea through Chongar. The white command gathered all the forces available on the peninsula (cadets, Fostikov's brigade, artillery school, the commander-in-chief's convoy) and threw them into the defense of the isthmus. The slow advance of the Northern and Eastern groupings of the enemy allowed the Whites to regroup their forces, cover themselves with rear guards and rush the whole army for a breakthrough into the Crimea. A strike group was concentrated in the Agayman area: Drozdovskaya, Markovskaya and Kornilovskaya infantry divisions, cavalry. At the same time, the Don Corps with a strong counterattack fettered the 2nd Cavalry Army. The Donets defeated the 2nd Cavalry Division. With a blow from the north, the White Army was making its way to the Crimea. White cavalry was able to beat Budyonny's divisions separately. First, Barbovich's corps threw Morozov's 11th cavalry division back, then hit Gorodovikov's 6th division. In a stubborn battle that lasted several hours, two of Budyonny's divisions were defeated.



On October 31, Frunze ordered Budenny to gather strength into a fist and stand to death. Mironov was ordered to break through to Salkovo, to the aid of the 1st Army. However, Budyonny could no longer carry out this order. The connection between the parts was lost. They fought separately. The 6th and 11th divisions, defeated on the eve, received reinforcements from Latvians and established themselves in the Agayman area. Selected units of the 1st Army Corps came here and again defeated the red cavalry. The 11th Division lost its entire command staff. Having covered himself from the attacking Latvians with the Kornilov division, Kutepov led the remaining troops to Otrada and Rozhdestvenskoye. In Otrada, the White Guards defeated the reserve cavalry brigade and the headquarters of the 1st Cavalry. Voroshilov was barely saved. Budyonny demanded that Timoshenko's 4th cavalry division be sent to his aid, but it was tied up in battle with the donors and units of the 3rd army corps. And the 14th Cavalry Division of Parkhomenko in Rozhdestvenskoye was defeated by Barbovich's corps. The 1st Cavalry Army was thrown back from Chongar, blocking at Salkov and Genichesk, pressing it to Sivash. Army Budyonny did not expect a strong blow from the seemingly defeated enemy, was defeated in parts and itself was under threat of defeat.

As a result, on October 30-31, 1920, the corps of the Russian army made their way through the disposition of the troops of the 1st Cavalry Army. Barbovich's cavalry corps and Kutepov's infantry successively defeated the 6th, 11th and 14th cavalry divisions, Budyonny's headquarters lost contact with the troops. October 31 - November 1-2, most of the White Army, repelling the attacks of individual units of the Reds, left Tavria for the Crimea. Only on November 3, the gap in Chongar was closed by units of the 4th, 1st Cavalry and 2nd Cavalry armies. On the same day, the Reds broke through the enemy's defenses on Sivash and occupied Chongar. The Whites blew up all the bridges to the Crimea. It was not possible to surround and destroy Wrangel's army. But the White Army lost Northern Tavria, its base and bridgehead, and suffered a heavy defeat. Its losses amounted to 50% of the personnel killed, wounded, frostbitten and captured. Material losses were also great.

Frunze noted:

“Especially remarkable is the departure of the main core to the Crimea. The Wrangelites, cut off from the isthmuses, still did not lose their presence of mind, and even with colossal sacrifices, they made their way to the peninsula. "


Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/, http://militera.lib.ru/, https://bigenc.ru/
Articles from this series:
Smoot. 1920 year

Battle of Rostov
The disaster of white Odessa
How Slashchev Crimea defended
Dono-Manych battle
The death of the Northern Army Miller
Why Western agent Kolchak is turned into a hero and martyr of Russia
The defeat of the army of Denikin in the battle of Tikhorets
How did the Ice Siberian campaign end
The fall of the White Kuban
Agony of White Novorossiysk
The death of the Kuban army
Denikin's resignation
Far Eastern Republic and the Japanese threat
Polish "liberation" campaign in Kiev
Baku “Blitzkrieg” of the Red Army
The battle for Belarus. May operation of the Red Army
War of the Russian Army Wrangel
The first victories of the Wrangel army
The defeat of the 13th Soviet Army in Northern Tavria
Our Kiev!
The battle for Rivne. How Budyonnovtsy smashed the Polish defense
Minsk is ours! The defeat of the Polish army in Belarus
Battle for Lviv. The failure of the Red Army in Galicia
The death of the cavalry group Rednecks
The fierce battle for the Kakhovsky bridgehead
The defeat of the landing group Ulagaya
"Miracle on the Vistula"
How Tukhachevsky destroyed his armies on the Vistula
Battle of Komarov. Defeat of the 1st Cavalry Army
Bukhara Blitzkrieg Frunze
"The danger of Wrangel is becoming enormous ..."
Battle on the Lower Dnieper
The last offensive of the Russian army
Battle of the Neman
Defeat of Tukhachevsky on the Neman
The defeat of the 3rd Soviet army in Belarus
The defeat of the Red Army on the Shara
How Turkey attacked Armenia
Armenian defeat. How the Turkish army captured Kars and Alexandropol
The defeat of Wrangel's army in the battle on the Dnieper
Defeat of the Far Eastern Army. How the "Chita plug" was eliminated
90 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. antivirus
    antivirus 28 October 2020 06: 33
    +4
    The Great Confusion - Crimea-Tavria-Northern Tavria ........................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......................................... where are the halabuts?
  2. Doctor
    Doctor 28 October 2020 08: 00
    +8
    Frunze was in no hurry with the operation, he prepared it carefully.

    It would be nice to remember the real developers and executors of the operation:

    Vladimir Alexandrovich Olderogge - Major General of RIA.

    Fedor Fedorovich Novitsky - Major General of RIA.

    Ivan Khristianovich Pauka - RIA Lieutenant Colonel.
    1. Looking for
      Looking for 28 October 2020 20: 27
      -3
      AND YOU GOT WITH YOUR RI !!!!
    2. ayh
      ayh 29 October 2020 19: 49
      +2
      In two cases out of 3 - the award found its heroes.
      Vladimir Alexandrovich Olderogge - Shot on May 27, 1931 in the Vesna case
      Ivan Christianovich Pauka - arrested on June 24, 1941. He died while under arrest in May 1943.
      For that fought for it and ran.
  3. Olgovich
    Olgovich 28 October 2020 08: 04
    -11 qualifying.
    Moscow had to surrender to Warsaw the regions occupied by the Poles in Western Belarus and Western Ukraine

    What, for the first time, or what?

    To ensure the possibility of fighting Russia, the Bolsheviks did this from their first day, paying off the invaders by territories, population, gold, and the country's interests: this was the case with Germany two years earlier, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Finland, and Turkey.

    the consequences of erroneous decisions by the military-political leadership headed by Trotsky
    It's funny: but the Central Committee and personally the leader of the so-called. more in. governments were against and Trotsky stripped them of power?
    the Makhnovists again sided with the Bolsheviks against the Whites. Makhno and his commanders fielded 11-12 thousand soldiers. On Makhno's call, atamans who joined him fled from Wrangel's army


    And they were cut out by their Bolshevik accomplices after use because of stupidity and stupidity followed by a decent payment
    1. Konstantin Shevchenko
      Konstantin Shevchenko 28 October 2020 08: 55
      -4
      And they were cut out by their Bolshevik accomplices after use because of stupidity and stupidity followed by a decent payment
      followed by the quick liquidation of the "cutter" of the Makhnovists and Wrangels, Mironov Philip Kuzmich of the 2nd Cavalry Army.
    2. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 28 October 2020 11: 21
      +3
      Quote: Olgovich
      the Bolsheviks did this from their first day,

      And they saved Russia.
      Quote: Olgovich
      were slaughtered by their Bolshevik accomplices

      The question is: why, with all that, the Bolsheviks were better for them than the whites?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 29 October 2020 09: 55
        +1
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        And they saved Russia.

        belay fool request
        IN THE WINDOW - take a look, huh?

        It is YOU who have done it, the borders of the 17th century and the Russian cross.

        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        The question is: why, with all that, the Bolsheviks were better for them than the whites?

        This is what the CUTTED ones told you, right? fool
        1. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 29 October 2020 11: 38
          +1
          Quote: Olgovich
          It is YOU who have done it, the borders of the 17th century and the Russian cross.

          Not us, but you. Look out the window - what is the flag over Russia?
          Quote: Olgovich
          This is what the CUTTED ones told you, right?

          No, the White Guards. laughing
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 29 October 2020 15: 33
            -3
            Quote: Sahar Medovich
            Not us, but you. Look out the window - what is the flag over Russia?

            fool
            YOU left Russia the 17th century grands and the Russian cross
            Quote: Sahar Medovich
            Quote: Olgovich
            This is what the CUTTED ones told you, right?

            No, the White Guards.


            The White Guards told for ... the Makhnovists, WHAT are they better for the Makhnovists ?! fool lol
            1. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 29 October 2020 17: 06
              -1
              Quote: Olgovich
              YOU left Russia the 17th century grands and the Russian cross

              We did not leave, but you arranged.
              Quote: Olgovich
              The White Guards told for ... the Makhnovists, WHAT is it better for them, the Makhnovists?

              They said that the Bolsheviks for the Makhnovists (and for the people in general) were better than them. White. yes
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 30 October 2020 10: 38
                0
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                We did not leave, but you arranged.


                YOU ruled, YOU arranged these boundaries of the 17th century (from 1917 to 1940), YOU left the Russian cross.
                No foreign invasion has torn away from Russia as much as YOU

                These are FACTS. Not your TATTOO.
                Quote: Sahar Medovich

                They said that the Bolsheviks for the Makhnovists (and for the people in general) turned out to be better than them. White

                Show where the Makhnovists authorized someone (including you) to speak for them, which is good for them. fool
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 30 October 2020 13: 47
                  -2
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  YOU arranged these boundaries of the 17th century (from 1917 to 1940)

                  Thereby collecting what you have torn to pieces.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Show where the Makhnovists are

                  Read the text carefully.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 1 November 2020 09: 07
                    0
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    Thereby collecting what you have torn to pieces.

                    WHAT attitude did the "assembly" (not broken by ANYONE, except YOU) have to .... RUSSIA ?! fool
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    Read the text carefully.

                    Show where the Makhnovists authorized someone (including you) to speak for them, which is good for them. Didn't get it again?
                    1. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich 1 November 2020 15: 06
                      -1
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      What relation

                      The most direct.
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Show where the Makhnovists are

                      Read the text. Got it, didn't it?
    3. Looking for
      Looking for 28 October 2020 20: 29
      +1
      It's too bad that you can't be cut out now. Liberast.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 29 October 2020 09: 57
        +2
        Quote: Seeker
        It's too bad that you are now cut is not allowed. liberals.


        You like to cut people, but you can't?

        But over By yourselfyou are free. yes
      2. Xnumx vis
        Xnumx vis 30 October 2020 23: 37
        +1
        Quote: Seeker
        It's too bad that you can't be cut out now. Liberast.

        Cutting heads, ripping open bellies? Are you not a radical Islamist? Painfully quick and bloodthirsty you dude!
  4. Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 28 October 2020 10: 01
    13
    Quote: Olgovich
    What, for the first time, or what?

    Say thanks to Wrangel, who, in the midst of the fighting on the Polish front, beat in the rear of the Red Army and pulled back many Red Army units. This allowed the Poles to seize Grodno, Vilenskaya, part of the Minsk and Volyn provinces. And then you do not hesitate to throw Wrangel
    Quote: Olgovich
    for stupidity and stupidity followed by a decent payment ...

    The point is not stupidity and stupidity, but the discontent of the peasantry with Wrangel's agrarian policy, when the land (and even then not all) was transferred to the peasants for ransom. As a result, the peasants, who at first thanked Wrangel for getting rid of the surplus appropriation, very quickly realized what was what (especially since Wrangel soon also switched to requisitions) and already began to rise against the whites. The Makhnovist command could not but take into account the mood of the peasants - their main base. And the peasants for the most part were in favor of the fact that all the land and without any ransom passed to them. And if so, then Makhno and Wrangel found themselves on opposite sides of the barricades
    1. Konstantin Shevchenko
      Konstantin Shevchenko 28 October 2020 11: 16
      0
      It would be better if there were no civil war and terror on both sides. The Russian people were killed and the land was lost.
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich 29 October 2020 10: 37
      -2
      Quote: Sergey Oreshin
      Say thanks to Wrangel, who, in the midst of the fighting on the Polish front, beat in the rear of the Red Army and pulled back many Red Army units. This allowed the Poles to seize Grodno, Vilenskaya, part of the Minsk and Volyn provinces. And then you do not hesitate to throw Wrangel
      Quote: Olgovich

      Don't you understand Russian? I said: "
      Quote: Olgovich
      What , for the first time, whether?

      and you that carry? Wrangel forced to give up a third of Russia to Germany too?

      And Turkey, Latvia, Estonia, etc., is he also? fool

      To the rear in red Poland did NOT beat in 1919 and 1920, having concluded an armistice and peace with the Bolsheviks, giving them the opportunity to transfer forces and destroy Russia. The armistice of 1919 allowed the transfer of red mercenaries from the Polish front and prevented the liberation of Moscow from the bandits.
      Did you go to school? No.
      Quote: Sergey Oreshin
      It's not about stupidity and stupidity

      It is in them: see the result.
      Quote: Sergey Oreshin
      when the land (and even then not all) was transferred to the peasants for ransom.

      by order of Wrangel dated May 25, 1920 it was transferred - "Land to the owners working on it." The reform was based on two principles: the protection of "all land use, as it has been established by the present time, from violations, violence and seizures", as well as the transfer to "working land owners of land suitable for farming, state and private.

      The land was transferred to FULL ownership, the peasants paid contributions to the state fund.

      And this was hundreds of times more profitable for the peasants than the WILD robbery of the peasants that took place under the "people's" government.
      1. DrEng527
        DrEng527 29 October 2020 18: 22
        0
        Quote: Olgovich
        Poland in 1919 and 1920, having concluded an armistice and peace with the Bolsheviks, giving them the opportunity to transfer forces and destroy Russia. P

        in 1939 received in full for this ... request
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 30 October 2020 10: 42
          +1
          Quote: DrEng527

          in 1939 received in full for this.

          In 1920, they also received a ho-oh-oh-irrigated stamen right up to Warsaw.
  5. Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 28 October 2020 10: 03
    +6
    In general, of course, a beautiful operation as conceived by the red command. And in general, too. For a week, they recaptured the territory that Wrangel had occupied all summer.
    However, the white command also showed itself very well, having managed to escape from the "cauldron" and go to the Crimea in an organized manner, retaining a combat-ready army
  6. BAI
    BAI 28 October 2020 12: 57
    10
    The withdrawal of white troops to the Crimea could lead to the refusal of France to provide white assistance.

    That's it. How is the classic? "History will not forgive us!" "And France, even more so."
    Belyaks fought for the interests of France, etc., but not for the interests of Russia. Wrangel's venality to the French led to a split in the White movement and General Slashchev's withdrawal from it.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 28 October 2020 13: 19
      +4
      Quote: BAI
      That's it. How is the classic? "History will not forgive us!" "And France, even more so."
      Belyaks fought for the interests of France, etc., but not for the interests of Russia. Wrangel's venality to the French led to a split in the White movement and General Slashchev's withdrawal from it.

      My friction with Wrangel continued, it came to a reproach on my part that it seems that we are beginning to dance to the tune of the French, and we raised a rebellion against the Soviet power, as against the power set by the Germans. Why are the Germans worse than the French?
      © Slashchev
    2. Esoteric
      Esoteric 28 October 2020 17: 11
      -7
      The communes, that's what my great-grandmother called them, fought not for the interests of Russia, they didn't give a damn about it. Their goal is a world revolution, and for this to sacrifice the entire population of Russia, that's it, little things. International, mouth - front, and other cannibalistic obscurantism. For the sake of the theory of Pope Carlo, who, unlike the book, did not work a day in his life, they were ready to lay down the entire people of the Russian Empire.
      From the very first day of the bandit seizure of power, thanks to the decomposed and lumpenized sailors, who had not been at the front for a day, and outright criminals, "socially close", they began to pump the wealth of the ruined Empire to help all kinds of "comrades", and they did not care that the country is hungry. All for the good of the "Internationale". That was the time for all the swindlers - adventurers, to pull money for themselves. Pretend to be a fiery revolutionary, kiss the portrait of Marx, and they will pour you gold, and diamonds, make a revolution.
      Here, of course, we must pay tribute to Comrade Trotsky, the real creator of this coup, a comrade from Shushensky there, so hot on the side. The speaker was excellent, he lied so that any dear. And the land to the peasants (surplus appropriation and so on, so on), and factories for the workers (aha, now), and freedom, you understand, will be (members of the Central Committee).
      The peasants and the workers did not appreciate it. But the first were poisoned by Tukhachevsky, the second were shot from machine guns in Petrograd. Soviet power is not soft tsarist power. It was under the king, the brother who attempted regicide was not even chided. He studied himself and studied at the university. Under the "people's" power, for this they destroyed up to the seventh generation. And Ilyich, for his attempts and agitation against the legitimate authorities at the resort in Shushenskoye, and not a noose around his neck, as it would be, for example, in England.
      What about the Crimea. Comrades Bela Kun and Zemlyachka were putting things in order there. How, you can read in the book
      The sun of the dead. Author: Ivan Shmelev.
      1. Alexander Suvorov
        Alexander Suvorov 28 October 2020 18: 14
        21
        A complete list of anti-Soviet cliches and clichés, and complete nonsense. If everything was as described by you, the Bolsheviks would never have won the Civil War. Yes, they were not white and fluffy, but they had an idea and they knew exactly what they wanted, unlike whites.
        And put your agitation somewhere far away, it's for the gullible fool fool fool and absolutely brainless who cannot think for themselves. Such a ram in the magazine "Ogonyok" used to be dumped on the head of readers in tons. Only now complete scumbags with a complete absence of a brain can believe all this.
        1. sniperino
          sniperino 29 October 2020 21: 30
          -2
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          Such a ram in the magazine "Ogonyok" used to be dumped on the head of readers in tons.
          Not like that. "Ogonyok" ram poured on Stalin. As soon as the first article appeared in Moscow with a critical assessment of the historical role of the Bolsheviks before Stalin came to power, Ogonyok responded with hysteria: "Not a step in 33 years!" Your position is closer to "Ogonyok" now.
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 28 October 2020 18: 36
        0
        "Sun of the Dead" is one of the books filled with pain. The death of a son does not just go away.
      3. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 29 October 2020 03: 25
        0
        Quote: Ezoterik
        The peasants and workers did not appreciate

        But they actively supported it. good
  7. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 28 October 2020 13: 16
    +2
    The White army was unprepared for the "unexpected" onset of winter. There was no winter uniform. The soldiers, in order not to freeze, left their positions and went to the villages. Hundreds of fighters were frostbitten, morale dropped even more.

    With winter uniforms, problems were regular.
    There were so many curses about the supply in the WWI — the whites experienced themselves.
    Beginning of 1918: “Of one hundred and two people, 60 were frostbite ... I pass the note to the regiment. S. and report. “So much frostbite!”, “Didn’t get canned food ?!”, “Still no warm!” “Kornilov shouts, clutching his head.” “Var, Var, return my legions” - where was the strike regiment created back in May-August 17th?
    December 1918: “The fresh 47th regiment of the 12th division and the brigade of the 6th Ural division suffered heavy losses from frostbite, because, participating in the battle for the first time, they lay for a long time under fire in the snow. Kappel was later accused of misusing them. Rather, the complete unpreparedness of the command staff for fighting in the winter was to blame. ”
    January 1920: “Wet felt boots were immediately covered with ice crust. To avoid pneumonia, the last 10 versts after the river had to be walked in pood boots. General Kappel, pitying his horse, often walked, drowning in the snow just like the others. Shod in fur boots, he accidentally drowned in snow and scooped up water in boots without telling anyone about this ... At this passage Kappel grabbed erysipelas of the leg and then lungs and soon died. ”
    February 1920: General Pavlov loses half his equestrian group frozen out; the cavalry of the South of Russia orders a long life.
    October 1920: “The Russian army, which launched the campaign in the summer of 1920, was not prepared for such a sharp change in the weather and for winter battles. Soldiers in the trenches, not having warm clothes, wrapped themselves in rags and left their positions in the rear villages. Frost caused both the decline in the spirit of the troops and the frostbite of hundreds of soldiers on the front lines. "
    © Belash
  8. Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 28 October 2020 13: 26
    +8
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    why, with all this, the Bolsheviks were better for them than the whites?

    Because the land was given to the peasants all and without any ransom
  9. Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 28 October 2020 13: 27
    +5
    Quote: Konstantin Shevchenko
    Better there was no civil war

    If the elites of the Russian Empire carried out a competent and balanced socio-economic policy, then it would probably be possible to avoid a revolution.
    The most important thing is that they were already in 1905-1907. the bell rang
    1. Konstantin Shevchenko
      Konstantin Shevchenko 28 October 2020 15: 32
      -2
      You can't please everyone. In the Republic of Ingushetia, there were also those among the people who were satisfied with the socio-economic policy, albeit not everything, but not to such an extent to take up arms. Not everyone wanted to participate in the Civil War, many had to participate under the threat of their lives and those of loved ones. And those who did not participate, too, flew in later. But the elites of the Republic of Ingushetia, including Nikolai, who took responsibility, did not have a strong will to avoid the GW.
  10. Azamat Ramazanov
    Azamat Ramazanov 28 October 2020 14: 14
    +5
    How could it happen that General Wrangel, who graduated from the tsarist academy, defeated Frunze, who did not have a military education at all? And there were not 12 thousand Makhnovists there, but only one detachment of Kareteikov of which there were 2 thousand people. their people.
  11. Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 28 October 2020 15: 08
    +3
    Quote: Azamat Ramazanov
    How could it happen that General Wrangel, who graduated from the tsarist academy, defeated Frunze, who had no military education at all?

    Because at the headquarters of the Southern Front, as well as among the commanders of the armies and at the headquarters of the armies, there were smart generals and officers of the Imperial Army. The names of the people who developed the plan for this operation have already been given above: the former generals Olderogge and Novitsky and the former lieutenant colonel Pauka.
    Quote: Azamat Ramazanov
    and the Makhnovists there were not 12 thousand, but only one detachment of Kareteikov of which there were 2 thousand

    Karetnikov's detachment was allocated for the Perekop-Chongra operation. And in Northern Tavria, the entire RPAU operated
    1. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 28 October 2020 16: 30
      0
      Quote: Sergey Oreshin
      there were smart generals and officers of the Imperial Army

      Smarter than the generals and officers of the Imperial Army - white?
      1. Doctor
        Doctor 28 October 2020 18: 52
        +4
        Smarter than the generals and officers of the Imperial Army - white?

        Yes, they are all classmates. And who is more intelligent showed the results of the Civil.

        It turns out that Vatsetis, Kamenev, Rattel, Kostyaev, Lebedev, Svechin, Egorov
        outplayed
        Alekseev, Yudenich, Krasnov, Kornilov, Kolchak, Denikin, Wrangel.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 29 October 2020 10: 45
          0
          Quote: Arzt
          It turns out that Vatsetis, Kamenev, Rattel, Kostyaev, Lebedev, Svechin, Egorov
          outplayed
          Alekseev, Yudenich, Krasnov, Kornilov, Kolchak, Denikin, Wrangel.

          This is how it turns out: the forces, and most importantly, the resources of the parties are absolutely incomparable and varied many times.

          Compare the weapons of the Reds in 1918, who captured weapons of the 12 million army Russia and whites who NOTHING,.

          And at the same time they beat and beat the Bolsheviks.

          And to call the Vatsetis, Egorovs and other bluchers, who were expected to be trampled into dust and a bullet, are generally ridiculous as victors.
          1. Sugar Honeyovich
            Sugar Honeyovich 29 October 2020 11: 48
            +2
            Quote: Olgovich
            whites who have NOTHING.

            Whites say that they had a lot of material assistance from abroad. soldier
      2. DrEng527
        DrEng527 29 October 2020 18: 27
        +3
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        Smarter than the generals and officers of the Imperial Army - white?

        in the article there is a correlation of forces ... the Reds have about 100 against 000 ... request
        1. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 30 October 2020 03: 35
          +1
          Quote: DrEng527
          there are about 100 reds against 000 ...

          At the final stage of the war. But here we are talking about something else.
          1. DrEng527
            DrEng527 30 October 2020 10: 50
            0
            Quote: Sahar Medovich
            At the final stage of the war.

            it was throughout the GW ...
            1. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 30 October 2020 10: 59
              +2
              Reds - 100 thousand, and whites - 37 thousand. Throughout the war? Interesting! what
              1. DrEng527
                DrEng527 30 October 2020 11: 55
                0
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                Throughout the war? Interesting!

                since you need to clarify - I'll chew: the red ones always had a numerical superiority, usually at times ... request
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 30 October 2020 13: 49
                  0
                  To clarify - yes, it is necessary. True, the Reds had tremendous support. Especially against whites.
                  1. DrEng527
                    DrEng527 30 October 2020 14: 21
                    0
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    Right, the Reds had tremendous support. Especially against whites.

                    and so they switched from a volunteer army to a mobilization one? bully
                    1. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich 30 October 2020 14: 26
                      0
                      No, that's not why.
                    2. mat-vey
                      mat-vey 31 October 2020 09: 52
                      0
                      Quote: DrEng527
                      and so they switched from a volunteer army to a mobilization one?

                      Well, according to your theory, volunteers are mercenaries ... And if there is support, why are mercenaries ..
                      1. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 2 November 2020 13: 39
                        0
                        Quote: mat-vey
                        Well, according to your theory, volunteers are mercenaries

                        In the case considered earlier, volunteers with a salary are no different from mercenaries ... request
                        Quote: mat-vey
                        .And if there is support why mercenaries ..

                        Mobilization is not dependent on support - it is a coercive measure request
                      2. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 2 November 2020 13: 47
                        0
                        As always, you are very flexible ...
                      3. DrEng527
                        DrEng527 2 November 2020 14: 15
                        0
                        Quote: mat-vey
                        As always, you are very flexible ...

                        those. can you say nothing in essence? bully
                      4. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 3 November 2020 05: 19
                        0
                        Are trolls like you interested in the essence?
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 28 October 2020 16: 59
    +2
    Quote: Konstantin Shevchenko
    You will not please everyone.

    There is no need to please everyone, but the agrarian, workers', national-religious question should be resolved. And so it was resolved by the revolution.
    1. Konstantin Shevchenko
      Konstantin Shevchenko 28 October 2020 18: 47
      -5
      allowed the revolution
      rather controversial. How many years have passed since the end of the Civil War when the workers and peasants healed well? The revolution only slowed down or even threw it back, after that it was necessary to rethink a lot and invest colossal resources with low efficiency "in order to catch up and overtake". The result is capitalism represented by one state and gradual socialism. During the Great Patriotic War, the Bolsheviks had nothing but bright slogans and beautiful speeches from the heart with "a carriage and a small cart" and was covered by a dubious German ideology, which the people did not delve into and did not read. I am not a supporter that it was bad under the USSR, but the people of Ingushetia, the USSR experienced a difficult fate at the beginning of the 20th century, and as a result "what they fought for and ran into," and cost so many victims?
      1. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 29 October 2020 11: 43
        +1
        Quote: Konstantin Shevchenko
        behind the Bolsheviks there was nothing but bright slogans and beautiful speeches from the heart with "a carriage and a small cart" and was covered by a dubious German ideology, which the people did not delve into and did not read

        There were also real cases in which the comparison was not in favor of the opponents of the Bolsheviks.
        1. The comment was deleted.
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 28 October 2020 17: 01
    0
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    Smarter than the generals and officers of the Imperial Army - white?

    In fact - yes, the level of the red military experts objectively turned out to be higher than that of their rivals from the "white camp".
    The field headquarters of the RVSR in terms of competence surpassed the Headquarters of Kolchak, Denikin, Wrangel
    1. Esoteric
      Esoteric 28 October 2020 17: 29
      -4
      Unfortunately, this is true. What drove them? Unclear. But the absolute majority of military experts received their "award". Cheka skillfully be grateful.
      1. Doctor
        Doctor 28 October 2020 18: 58
        +4

        Unfortunately, this is true. What drove them? Unclear.

        It's hard to figure out when you're inside events.
        Now we know who Gorbachev is. And then the people were delighted, remember how he was met on the streets.

        Our time will also be objectively assessed in 30 years. laughing
      2. Konnick
        Konnick 29 October 2020 13: 49
        +2
        Former tsarist officers of a more noble origin than in the white movement served in the Red Army, and this is due to the fact that they had a more developed sense of duty to the Motherland and they were real patriots.
        Quote: Ezoterik
        But the absolute majority of military experts received their "award". Cheka skillfully be grateful.

        This was not the case, most of them were non-partisan, if you can go to the Novodevichy cemetery, there is a whole alley of Soviet generals unknown to many of us, former generals of tsarist Russia. Mainly the party military experts suffered, because of their adherence to Trotskyism. Many of the former joined the party before the Second World War or during the war. Karbyshev joined the party in 1940, being already a lieutenant general, Shilovsky (the prototype of Colonel Roshchin in "Walking in Torment") applied to the party, being a lieutenant general, in November 1941, Govorov joined the party in June 1942, being the commander of the Leningrad groups of troops. And those who organized the case about the military experts "Vesna", which were quickly stopped, tried and shot.
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 28 October 2020 22: 22
    +3
    Quote: Ezoterik
    What drove them? Unclear.

    Well why.
    Many went to the Reds after the start of the German offensive in February 18th and after the start of the Entente intervention in the spring of 18th, when it became clear that it was the Bolsheviks who began to fight the invaders, while the whites, who shouted loudest about "war until victory" On the 17th, in the 18th they began to serve the invaders and feed themselves from their hands.
    And someone was simply mobilized and they didn't really think about it: people knew how to fight well and fought on the side of the tsar who paid them the salary, then the Provisional Government, and then the Council of People's Commissars
    1. Esoteric
      Esoteric 29 October 2020 16: 20
      +1
      Come on, what an intervention. So, dust in the eyes of the white army. Like, look, and we are helping you. Actually zilch. Here are the red ones, yes, many punishers launched onto Russian land. Some Chinese and their atrocities are worth something.
      If the Entente had actually intervened, the Bolsheviks would not have sat for a month. After the victory over Germany, half of the Entente troops should be sent to help the white movement, and how long would the Bolsheviks hold out? Couple of weeks? All this is nonsense, with the so-called intervention.
      Well, for example, the Grand Fleet goes to Petrograd. Your actions? The revolutionary sailors busy with drinking and the destruction of officers will be able to repel?
      1. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 29 October 2020 17: 16
        +2
        Quote: Ezoterik
        Come on, what kind of intervention

        The most real. That is why it turned out that the Bolsheviks are fighting for Russia, and the whites are against it. The scale - yes, it was smaller than the whites wanted, but this is the usual European policy - to warm hands on someone else's trouble and be friends with the strongest. In addition, the Entente after WW1 was seriously afraid of its 1917.
        It was the tsar who launched the Chinese into Russia, not the Bolsheviks. hi
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 28 October 2020 22: 24
    0
    Quote: Konstantin Shevchenko
    rather controversial.

    Lenin is credited with the words that he threw to the Socialist-Revolutionaries and Mensheviks in response to the reproach for the violent overthrow of the Provisional Government. Like, if you, gentlemen, being in power in the 17th, carried out the social reforms necessary for the people, would there really be at least one turk who would go to the social revolution?
    It was the reluctance and inability of the first tsarist and then the Provisional government to carry out the urgent social and economic reforms, as well as to resolve the issue of war and peace, that led to the revolution
    1. Konstantin Shevchenko
      Konstantin Shevchenko 29 October 2020 15: 58
      0
      How long did the Provisional Government last? Is it possible for such a time, something to be in time in particular reforms? Ulyanov and Bronstein, professional populists and orators, who will not go into korman for a word, have caught the moment in the weakened political system "strike while the iron is hot", it would be too late for them to pull further. A typical example of Bolotnaya in 2012, I would not say that people offended for life gathered there, there were enough onlookers from business and office plankton, and all thanks to the populist technology of the so-called "non-systemic opposition". The tsar and the elite at the end of the Republic of Ingushetia are nihilists and it's true, for which they paid.
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 29 October 2020 11: 10
    +2
    Quote: Olgovich
    Latvia, estonia, etc., is he also?

    No, not he, but Kolchak, who, at the height of the Western campaign of the Red Army at the beginning of March 19, launched an offensive in the Urals.
    And Denikin, who at that time launched an offensive in the Donbass.
    As a result, all free reserves went to the Eastern and Southern Front.
    And Dzerozhinskiy and Rodzianko, whose troops fought on the side of the Estonians.
    And Count Palen with Prince Lieven, whose troops fought on the side of the Latvians.
    As a result, the Reds were defeated in the Baltics.
    If it weren't for whites, the Red Army would have defeated the Balts in no time.
    Quote: Olgovich
    Poland did NOT hit the rear with red

    But Wrangel was just hitting the rear of the Red Army in the midst of battles on the Polish front. And he coordinated his actions in the summer of the 20th with the Poles. He had a Polish military mission in Crimea headed by Lieutenant Michalski.
    The fact that then the Poles threw Wrangel, just as they threw Denikin in October 19 - well, excuse me, Pyotr Nikolaevich was not a small child, he should have understood what kind of "ally" he had who had already betrayed the whites once ...
    Quote: Olgovich
    And it was hundreds of times more profitable for the peasants

    In fact, not all of the land, because landowners were also recognized as landowners and retained part of the land. And for what passed to the peasants, they had to pay.
    The memoirs of the Makhnovists (who cannot be suspected of love for the Bolsheviks) testify: as soon as it became known about Wrangel's land law, both the fighters and the commanders immediately understood: no, we were not on our way with him and flatly refused to alliance with him. Because the peasants were in favor of transferring all the land to them without any ransom.
    So the baron got burned on the land reform.
    The same peasants who, in June 20, thanked him for getting rid of the surplus appropriation system, did not go to his army and did not rush to sell bread for bells, and when the whites began to carry out violent mobilizations and requisitions, these same peasants began to revolt already against white.
    The fact is that of all the peasant atamans who fought against the Reds, almost no one went to an alliance with Wrangel
    1. Foul skeptic
      Foul skeptic 29 October 2020 15: 59
      +2
      So the baron got burned on the land reform.

      It is interesting that the adherents of Wrangel's land reform do not try to view the situation somewhat more broadly than just a declarative statement of an individual person. Just fast forward to 1920, into a world where Wrangel is winning the civil war. And it’s time to remember that it’s time to pay off the loans of the Russian Empire. And this is 800 million rubles a year (and not those with which in 1918-1920 the walls were pasted over instead of wallpaper, but pre-war). In fat years, out of 1,59 billion rubles of export, 0,74 billion rubles was bread That is, the export must be increased, you cannot leave it at the pre-war level, there is not enough to cover the export deficit (and the deficit is not 800-740 = 60 million rubles, since other export positions after the war are in a deplorable state, but definitely higher). Only on account of redemption payments for the land, this cannot be done, since they are 20% of the average harvest, and the aforementioned 0,74 billion rubles were rescued by selling 22% of the crop, and we need more than 0,74 billion (and this is not even considered restoration of the country, only a matter of securing debt obligations). It would seem that the issue is solved only by purchasing what is missing from the peasants. But ... there is no living secured money. Appeal with this ?:
      Every faithful son of our long-suffering Motherland, not out of fear, but out of conscience, is obliged to give up his strength and knowledge and sacrifice his personal interests ... (P.N. Wrangel in explanations to land reform)

      As the practice of the NEP has shown, the peasants who were born in the empire do not care deeply about their worldview in their long-suffering homeland.
      Requisitions remain. And here we need to leave the global issues for a while and look from the same positions, but at the implementation of land reform on the part of the peasants.
      Here all opponents point-blank refuse to notice a number of things:
      1) The choice of the owners, behind whom the land is strengthened, as well as the determination of the size of the fortified plots falls on the land councils (5-10 people from the peasants who own the land). What this means for landless peasants I think is clear.
      2) The owners, in whose use the land subject to alienation is located, are subject to redemption fees for it in bread or money to the treasury even before its strengthening, namely from the time the order on the land was spread to the given area.
      3) The allocation of land by order did not occur to individuals, but to groups, the final individual land management was postponed for an indefinite subsequent time.
      No sane peasant would accept the combination of points 2 and 3 - you already pay, but you don't know what you are paying for in the end.
      4) Transactions on the sale and purchase of agricultural land within a rural municipality can be made only upon their approval by the rural municipality land council. As a result, some kind of strange property turns out (especially if we remember that the council does not have the entire volost, but 5-10 "good" owners who can restrict the disposal of land for the rest).
      There are much more pitfalls than voiced ones, I will not explain everything, I will just finish with a cherry on the cake
      5) A cherry - the very method of payment in the form of 20% of the average for 10 years of harvest and that if the fees are not paid on time, the plots, both not fortified into ownership and fortified, are withdrawn from the owners.
      Let's move this to a specific situation. For example, the situation in the Tambov province, beloved by many of Wrangel's admirers. In May, Wrangel issues a decree, and in a month the results of the harvest will show that in the Tambov province there are only 12 million poods of grain. Average 1906-1915 (data after 1915 not within the framework of a quick response on the forum) - 122,2 million poods. I will discard 10, no, even 20% due to the fact that the year took 1915, not 1919. We get 98 million poods. The Tambov peasants (we agreed that Wrangel was the winner) would have to give 1/5, that is, 19,6 million poods out of 12 million possible. A possible outcome is land loss.
      And here the weather will not change even the fact that under the pressure of objective reality on June 17, the Department of Agriculture and Land Management ordered this year (and not in general in the future, as many mistakenly think) to establish a ransom payment in the amount of 1/5 of the harvested crop, and not the average.
      After all, if we consider that crop failures once every five years are a harsh reality, then 25 years of ransom turns the venture into a profanation.
      Because from the point of view of the peasant, we are again returning from our particular situation to the scale of the country, where we need to sell grain for at least 800 million rubles. And we don't have it.
      Finita La Comedy.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 29 October 2020 11: 20
    +3
    "History will condemn not us, who remained in the Motherland and honestly fulfilled their duty, but those who obstructed this, forgot the interests of their country and cursed favor with foreigners, obvious opponents of Russia both in the past and in the future "
    M.D. Bonch-Bruevich, Major General of the Imperial Army, Lieutenant General of the Red Army.
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 29 October 2020 11: 21
    +2
    Quote: Olgovich
    and whites who have NOTHING.

    Yeah, with bare hands on machine guns)))
    And what about German deliveries to Krasnov (and through him to Denikin)?
    And what about the Entente supplies to Kolchak, Miller, Yudenich, the same Denikin and Wrangel?
    And the fact that in the 18th-1st half of the 19th, two-thirds (if not three-quarters) of Russia with such large industrial centers as the Urals, Kuzbass and Donbass, the best grain-growing regions like the Don, Kuban, Terek, Novorossiya, Siberia were under the control of the whites ?
    Quote: Olgovich
    Compare the weapons of the Reds in 1918, who captured the weapons of the 12 millionth army of Russia

    In fact, the argument is absolutely out of topic. Because it doesn't matter how many weapons you have and what quality they are, it is important whether there are people who want to use them.
    The Provisional Government in the 17th had a huge army, a bunch of weapons in warehouses, detachments in the rear - so what? But nothing! A series of defeats from the Germans, and in October-November the Red Guard took out the "temporary" ones with half a kick. Because the people did not want to fight for Sasha Kerensky. And neither the army, nor the navy, nor the huge military warehouses and reserves helped him. And the soldiers simply demolished Kerensky's detachments in the rear, and in the fall they disintegrated and fled. And the commissars Kerensky were raised on bayonets.
    So, I repeat, it's not about the quantity or even the quality of a weapon, but something else entirely.
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 29 October 2020 12: 32
      +1
      The Entente supplied weapons not for the victory of the White movement, but in sufficient quantities to maintain the war in a permanent state and weaken Russia in any way, whether the Reds or the Whites won. Denikin wrote about this.
      1. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 29 October 2020 14: 22
        +2
        It's just that Olgovich wrote that the whites allegedly had nothing at all, no weapons, no uniforms, but the red had everything. What is not true
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 29 October 2020 14: 56
          +1
          Well Olgovich is still that Bulkokhrust hi
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 29 October 2020 14: 25
    +1
    Quote: Konnick
    Denikin wrote about this.

    Well, he had to somehow justify his defeat))
    So he blamed everyone: the Bolsheviks for "kindling the war," moderate socialists for "irresponsibility," the anarchists "for being hit in the rear," the self-styled "for fighting against a single, indivisible," Entente - for the fact that "low-quality weapons supplied", Wrangel - for "intriguing", etc.
    In general, everyone is to blame for everything, only Anton Ivanovich in a white uniform
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 29 October 2020 17: 22
    +2
    Quote: Ezoterik
    Come on, what an intervention.

    The Kola Peninsula, almost the entire Arkhangelsk province, the Far East to Lake Baikal, the Crimea and the Northern Black Sea region, the Transcaspian region, Transcaucasia, Dagestan.
    I'm not even talking about the supply of uniforms and weapons (up to tanks) to whites.
    Quote: Ezoterik
    After the victory over Germany, send half of the Entente troops to help the White movement

    They wanted, but the fatigue of the masses from WWI and the revolutionary ferment in the Entente troops thwarted these plans.
    Quote: Ezoterik
    The revolutionary sailors busy with drinking and the destruction of officers will be able to repel?

    You are confusing 1917 with 1919. What are the killings of officers in the 19th? Tsentrobalt was raped by the Bolsheviks already at the beginning of the 18th, the most violent sailors were floated to the land fronts. In the 19th, the People's Commissariat of Military Affairs already quite firmly held the Baltic Fleet in its hands
    And the Entente fleet in the 19th still operated in the Baltic, but not very successfully
    1. Esoteric
      Esoteric 30 October 2020 17: 36
      0
      Do you seriously think that if the Entente wanted to put an end to the Bolsheviks using their troops, it would have failed? I repeat, half of the Entente troops, after the victory in Gemania, a hemp rope was shining to help the White movement and the Central Committee of the Bolsheviks, at most a month later, actually earlier.
      The eternally drunken sailors of the revolutionary fleet, who were drunk, could have done something against the Entente fleet? Do not make me laugh. Is it possible to send their new commanders under the water, with grates on their feet, they had great experience in this matter. It's all about something else. The Entente countries were tired of the bloody massacre, they no longer wanted to fight anymore. Again, Trotsky's sweet speeches about how to take everything and divide it up were very dangerous for the soldiers, who were already tired of the horror of the war. Especially the French were so susceptible to this. So they did not help the way it should have been if the goal was to overthrow the Bolsheviks. Then they probably bit their elbows, but late, the train left.
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 29 October 2020 17: 25
    +2
    Quote: Konstantin Shevchenko
    Is it possible for such a time, something to be in time in particular reforms?

    The land decree was passed overnight.
    As well as the Decree on Peace.
    The decree on an 8-hour working day - a couple of days after the seizure of power.
    What prevented the “temporary” ones from starting reforms within 8 months of being in power, and not pulling the cat by the tail and postponing everything until the US?
    But okay "temporary", here first of all a question to the tsarist bureaucracy, which did not carry out the urgent reforms and even the revolutionary events of 1905-1907. did not force her to seriously start reforming the country.
    For which then the tsarist bureaucrats and aristocrats paid dearly
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 29 October 2020 19: 29
      +3
      I will support you. Everyone has heard about maternity leave, it is called so in honor of the Decree of the Soviet Power of 22.12.1917/XNUMX/XNUMX "On health insurance", there was prescribed the amount of benefit and leave for eight weeks for women before giving birth and eight weeks after giving birth.
    2. Konstantin Shevchenko
      Konstantin Shevchenko 30 October 2020 12: 39
      -1
      This is not a reform, but marginal arbitrariness in order to retain power. This is the road to civil war. This is the reason for the difficult situation in agriculture and at the beginning of the Second World War. So you did not answer from what year the workers and peasants began to live well. But you know the beautiful propaganda well which I know from early childhood. You know history well, probably a historian. Thank you informative. I asked my own people (a family of military personnel) when did they feel that life became good? Answer: since 1937, such a paradox.
      1. Foul skeptic
        Foul skeptic 30 October 2020 15: 14
        +1
        Konstantin, if you think that the Decree on Land is arbitrariness, then why do you blame the Bolsheviks for this very arbitrariness? The land decree is the crystallized mandate of the peasants at the First All-Russian Congress of Peasant Deputies in May 1917. No more, no less. And yes, there were as many as 0,8% of peasant Bolshevik deputies at this congress.
        Well, the way to the civil war, the state began the year since 1902.
        So you did not answer from what year the workers and peasants began to live well.

        I asked my own people (a family of military personnel) when did they feel that life became good? Answer: since 1937, such a paradox.

        And what is your paradox, excuse me?
        Is that not since 1917?
        1. Konstantin Shevchenko
          Konstantin Shevchenko 30 October 2020 16: 49
          -1
          And what is your paradox, excuse me?
          Is that not since 1917?
          the paradox is that in 1937 the repressions began. Sergei Oreshin claims that under the interim government did nothing for the good of the people and this requires a revolution. So I ask how long has passed since the end of the Civil War, the peasants and workers have healed well, as promised with the need for the revolution. Is it really a difficult question?
          Read the decree and proposals for temporary reforms.
          1. Foul skeptic
            Foul skeptic 30 October 2020 17: 13
            +1
            Is it really a difficult question?

            It is not so much difficult as meaningless, since it is impossible to answer it. Maybe that's why you don't answer it. And the main thing is that the possible answer to it will in no way be a counterargument to anything.
            peasants and workers healed well as promised

            This is a gag.
            Read the decree and proposals for temporary reforms.

            And what will I suddenly find there? )) Be more specific, please.
            1. Konstantin Shevchenko
              Konstantin Shevchenko 30 October 2020 20: 19
              -1
              It's funny to tears, reminds the bureaucratic nomenclature of the USSR, at first they eloquently tell that the Bolsheviks are great, they are carrying out reforms at a gallop. I ask about the result, the answer is - it's difficult, "disperse, there will be no kin." It is not difficult for some critics to point out that in Europe and the United States, people live well wages more than in Russia, the emirates, too, and so on there technologies ... But I know the exact answer to my question, which the supporters of the revolution do not want to say & (v ) the Bolsheviks - the experiment failed, perestroika, well, in general, "they wanted the best, it turned out as always." We destroy strong, smart, talented, economic people, and then we wonder why we are lagging behind. Therefore, I am against revolutions and not deliberate hasty experiments on Russia.
              Be specific, please.
              Reply
              there is a big difference between take away (directive) and give (reform). Taking away is easy. And to give is difficult.
              1. Foul skeptic
                Foul skeptic 2 November 2020 09: 10
                +1
                And I am sad to tears.
                I ask about the result, the answer is difficult

                Again gag. You were told that it was not difficult, but meaningless because it was impossible. This always happens when the question is at the level of a five-year-old. You yourself do not understand that you have assigned absolute meaning to concepts that are of a relative nature ("good-bad"). Do you remember your wording? I can still understand if the question was "when did a generation of peasants and workers appear, most of whose representatives began to live better than their parents did?" But no, they ask a kindergarten question, and then make "profound conclusions."
                It is not difficult for some critics to point out that in Europe and the United States, people live well wages more than in Russia, the emirates, too, etc. there technologies ...

                It was always surprising that in comparison of the two types of world order, they recall a dozen capitalist countries out of almost two hundred, modestly keeping silent about the rest.
                there is a big difference between take away (directive) and give (reform). Taking away is easy. And to give is difficult.

                In your opinion, is it more specific?
                Please tell us what is in the content of the directive (decree, probably) that takes away and what is in the content of the reform that gives? What gives, how and to whom? And most importantly, the possibility of implementing what is declared. And so far it's just a shaking of the air.
      2. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 30 October 2020 19: 15
        +1
        The point is, first of all, in the tsarist bureaucracy, which had a lot of time, but which was incompetent, missed the opportunity to reform the country.
        And even the Revolution of 1905-1907. taught nothing to the tsarist bureaucrats.
        None of the key issues (agrarian, workers, national) were resolved by the tsarist regime.
        Because the problems were not solved, then, consequently, the autocratic regime was overthrown during the revolution (literally in a matter of days it collapsed), and other forces came to power.
        As for the Provisional Government, its policy was so stupid and helpless that the "temporary" lost their credibility very closely and in just a couple of days they were demolished
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 29 October 2020 17: 27
    +1
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    Finita La Comedy.

    Everything is very competently and laid out on the shelves!
    But the "belodels" still will not understand, for them Wrangel is almost "the greatest ruler-reformer of Russia"
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 29 October 2020 19: 46
    +1
    Quote: DrEng527
    in the article there is a correlation of forces ... the Reds have about 100 against 000 ...

    The balance of power really says little. After all, it is also important to supply, and weapons, and other military "little things" (which are actually not trivia), as well as the level and competence of the command
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 30 October 2020 19: 18
    +1
    Quote: DrEng527
    the reds have always been outnumbered, usually at times ...

    In itself, numerical superiority does not mean anything and is not a factor of victory.
    There have been examples in history when numerically smaller armies crushed outnumbered forces
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 30 October 2020 19: 20
    0
    Quote: Ezoterik
    The Entente countries were tired of the bloody massacre, they no longer wanted to fight anymore. Again, Trotsky's sweet speeches about how to take everything and divide it up were very dangerous for the soldiers, who were already tired of the horror of the war. Especially the French were so susceptible to this.

    Themselves answered their own question))
    WWI exhaustion + revolutionary ferment in Western countries and their armies made large-scale intervention inevitable
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 31 October 2020 15: 59
    0
    Quote: Konstantin Shevchenko
    Therefore I am against revolutions

    You see, a social revolution is an objective process, consisting of a whole series of factors, and absolutely nothing will change from the fact that you (as well as other inhabitants) are against the revolution or do not want it.