Mamaevo massacre: did the Russians fight the Russians?

"Morning on the Kulikovo field". A. Bubnov

Most of the subjects of the Golden Horde were Russians. The fierce wars that Moscow waged with the Horde and which went on in the Horde kingdom itself were the wars of the Russians against the Russians.

Preparing for the decisive battle

After the destruction of the Begich's army on Vozha, Mamai flew into a rage and vowed to take revenge on “Konaz Mitka”. In 1379, the troops of a powerful nobleman attacked the Ryazan land. Mamai wanted to punish Prince Oleg Ryazansky for the participation of his regiments in the battle on Vozha. The bloodless Ryazan region could not resist. Oleg Ivanovich ran for the Oka. The Horde attacked and burned Pereyaslavl-Ryazan. Many people were taken to the Horde. Oleg Ivanovich was forced to enter into negotiations with Mamai and bow his head.

Both sides prepared for a decisive battle, assembled regiments, made alliances. The Grand Duke of Moscow made a campaign against the Bryansk principality, took the cities of Trubchevsk and Starodub. The brother of the Grand Duke of Lithuania Yagaila, Dmitry Olgerdovich Bryansky, who was sitting in Trubchevsk, went over to the side of Moscow with his retinue. In July 1380, news came to Moscow about the beginning of the campaign of the Mamaeva Horde. Dmitry Ivanovich has established excellent short and long range reconnaissance. Russian envoys and merchants reported on events in the Horde. Guard squads stood at the border. Muscovite Rus, according to modern researchers, fielded 50-60 thousand soldiers (according to other sources, up to 150 thousand people). Of these, a third or a little more were soldiers of the Grand Duchy of Moscow. The great sovereign gathered almost all the regiments of North-Eastern Russia. Perhaps Novgorodians and part of the Tver people joined him. "Zadonshchina" also mentions Ryazan boyars among those who died on the Kulikovo field. Obviously, they brought their troops.

Also on the side of the great sovereign of Moscow, obviously, the servicemen of the Horde fought: the descendants of the Polovtsy, the "Mongols" and the Tatars. They played the role of light cavalry and reconnaissance. The regiments of the Lithuanian princes Andrew and Dmitry Olgerdovich joined the grand ducal army. Andrey was the governor of Dmitry in Pskov, and Dmitry was in Pereyaslavl-Zalessky, but they also brought in regiments from their former inheritances, which were part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Russia: Polotsk, Bryansk, Starodub and Trubchevsk. By birth, these "Lithuanians" were Russian-Russians. As a result, horse princely and boyar squads, heavy infantry of the Grand Duke, militias of cities, partly villages, took part in the battle.

Mamai mobilized all the subordinate princes of the White (Golden) Horde and fielded from 100 to 300 thousand soldiers (there is no exact data). At the same time, the Horde army was twice as large as the forces of Muscovite Rus. Mamai concluded an alliance with the Grand Duke of Lithuania Jagailo and the Grand Duke of Ryazan Oleg. According to the Moscow Chronicle of the end of the 1380th century, Mamai walked “with all the princes of Ordin and with all the might of the Tatars and Polovtsi. Most of all, he named many rats: Besermens and Armenians, Ryazy and Cherkasy and Burtases, with them, together with the same thoughts, the great Lithuanian prince Yagailo Olgerdovich with all the power of Lithuanian and Lyatskoy, Oleg Ivanovskoy and Ryazan princes with them. In order to confront Dmitry Ivanovich's heavily armed infantry, Mamai hired Western mercenaries (Genoese or Venetian infantry). At the same time, the lord of the western part of the Horde found himself in a situation of war on two fronts. From the east, he was pressed by Khan Tokhtamysh, who was supported by Tamerlane. Tokhtamysh's troops occupied the eastern part of the Horde state - the Blue Horde, and invaded the White Horde. In the spring of XNUMX, Tokhtamysh's warriors appeared in the Azov region. Therefore, Mamai gathered a large army to "kill two birds with one stone." First, crush the impudent "Mitka", destroy and plunder its lands. Then turn against Tokhtamysh.

Dmitry Donskoy on the way to the Kulikovo field. Facial annalistic vault, XVI century

Troop movement

The gathering of Russian regiments was appointed in Kolomna on August 15, 1380. The ambassador arrived here with Mamai with a demand to obey. Negotiations yielded nothing. Already in Kolomna, the primary battle formation was formed: Dmitry Ivanovich and the okolnichy Timofey Velyaminov led the Big Regiment; Vladimir Andreevich - Right Hand regiment; left hand regiment - Gleb Bryansky. On August 20, the grand duke's army left Kolomna and went west along the Oka and the mouth of the Lopasnya defeated the camp. Here, intelligence reported that the enemy was on the Meche River, the right tributary of the Don. There, at the border of Lithuania, Mamai was waiting for the approach of Yagaila's regiments.

Since the Horde did not attack the Grand Duchy of Moscow and other lands of North-Eastern Russia, part of the forces remaining there was withdrawn from Moscow. At the same time, patrols on the Oka are being strengthened. On August 26-27, Russian regiments crossed the Oka. The great sovereign decided to meet the enemy and defeat Mamai before uniting with Yagaila. The Russian regiments marched south-east, to the left bank of the Don. Long-range patrols watched the enemy all the time. Don covered the grand ducal army from a possible surprise attack from the enemy. On September 6, Dmitry's advanced detachments were near the confluence of the Nepryadva River into the Don. Here they defeated the Horde reconnaissance detachment. From the fugitives, Mamai learned about the appearance of the "Uruses". The Russian command expected the Mamai horde to appear in the evening, but it did not appear on the 7th.

The Grand Duke convened a council of war. We discussed the situation. Don well defended the Russian regiments. Mamai, remembering the fate of Begich, could abandon the battle, put up a barrier and rush with the cavalry to Moscow, ruin many lands and cities. Or go to join the Russian-Lithuanian army. As a result, Dmitry Ivanovich offered to go against the enemy himself. The council supported the great sovereign. On the night of September 8, 1380, Russian troops crossed the Don along several built bridges and ford (cavalry), crossed to the right bank and settled above the mouth of the Nepryadva. The Grand Duke ordered to destroy the bridges. Having traveled 200 km from the Kolomna fortress to the Don, the Russian squads entered the Kulikovo field. The place was convenient for fighting the Horde. The left flank was covered by a dense oak forest, the right - by river thickets, ravines and gullies. As a result, the Horde could not use their trump card - more numbers and cavalry for deep coverage. They had to attack head-on, where the grand ducal's heavy infantry and cavalry could withstand the enemy's blow. Ahead were the Sentry and Advance regiments of the princes Simeon of Obolensky and John of Tarusa, who were supposed to beat down the offensive ardor of the Horde. In the center is the Great Regiment under the command of Velyaminov (the Grand Duke himself in the armor of a simple warrior stood up in line so that his death would not affect the morale of the soldiers), on the flanks - the Right Hand regiment under the command of Prince Andrei Olgerdovich and the Left Hand regiment of princes Vasily Yaroslavsky and Theodore Molozhsky. In the rear there was also a reserve regiment in case of a breakthrough of the "wall". On the left wing (according to other sources, on the right), an ambush regiment was set up in the forest, headed by the best commanders of Moscow Rus Vladimir Andreevich and Dmitry Mikhailovich Bobrok-Volynsky. The ambush regiment was cavalry and had to strike at a critical moment in the battle.

Poboische

The Horde army appeared at about 10 am. Mamai pitched a tent at the top of the Red Hill. The place was inconvenient for a horse attack, but the ruler of the White Horde decided to launch an offensive. Ahead was light cavalry, in the center of the infantry were Western mercenaries, reinforced by dismounted cavalry, heavily armed regiments on the flanks. There was also a strong reserve. Mamai planned to pin down the Russians in the center and break through on the flanks, entering the enemy's rear. The battle began at about 12 o'clock with a duel between Peresvet and the Horde warrior-batyr Chulubei. Both heroes were killed. Then the Horde light cavalry tried to crush the Russian Guard Cavalry Regiment. Russian squads gave a strong rebuff. After that, the entire first line of the Mamai Horde went forward. The guard regiment retreated to the Peredovoye, but he also could not withstand a powerful blow and fell back to the main forces. The Big Regiment and flanking regiments entered the battle.

The fierce hand-to-hand combat lasted two hours. Mamai's heavy cavalry was still able to punch a road on the left flank. The left-hand regiment and part of the forces of the Great Regiment moved back. Of the battle formations of the Russian army, only the regiment of the Right Hand survived, here the governors even had to restrain the soldiers who were eager to counterattack. The reserve situation on the left flank could not be reversed. The Horde went into the rear of the grand ducal army. The Russians turned the front to face the enemy cavalry that had broken through. Here the remnants of the Advanced, Big Regiments and the reserve fought. A new battle line was formed. Mamai, anticipating victory, threw all his forces into battle, including the reserve. In general, little is known about the course of the battle, sources say little. It is known that at the most critical moment, when the Horde were already close to victory, the Ambush Regiment struck. The troops were mixed, the "turmoil" began. The Horde fought in the ring of the Russian troops, the Russians among the Horde regiments.

At the same time, the Horde, although they did not expect such a blow, resisted. However, the blow of the soldiers of Vladimir Andreevich and Dmitry Bobrok-Volynts allowed to divert the forces and attention of the Horde, to stop the onslaught of the main forces of Mamai on the Big Regiment, and the main forces to regroup. The main Russian forces went over to a counterattack, the Right Hand regiment went forward. The Horde wavered and ran. Mamai abandoned his troops, but left a barrier at the camps (marching camp, carts). The last battle took place here. The Horde men were crushed. The chronicler noted: “And soon break that one and all the camps from the izem, you carried their wealth, and gnasha to the river Mechi; that multitude of Tatars istoposh ”.

Thus, the grand ducal army won a complete victory. The Horde army was destroyed and suffered huge losses during the battle and pursuit. 7-8 soldiers from each ten were killed. Soon the power of Mamai came to an end. Tokhtamysh, who had the right to rule in the Horde, finished off Mamai in October-November 1380. Most of the temnik went over to the side of the lawful Khan Tokhtamysh and swore allegiance to him. Mamai fled to Crimea, where he was soon killed. However, the Russian regiments also ran out of cows in the Kulikovo field. Therefore, it was not possible to immediately throw off the power of the Horde. The Golden Horde had already collapsed, but retained a huge military potential. Soon Tokhtamysh will gather a large army and burn Moscow.

Battle of Kulikovo. Miniature from the chronicle of the XNUMXth century

Civil war

Studying this period stories of the Russian state, it must be remembered that the "Mongols from Mongolia" and the "Mongol-Tatar yoke" are myths created in the Vatican in order to destroy and rewrite genuine Russian history in their own interests. In the West, they cannot accept the fact that the Russians have a more ancient history than the Germans, French, British or Italians. That many European cities stand on Slavic-Russian foundations - like Berlin, Vienna, Dresden or Venice. That the Russians are the direct heirs of the ancient northern civilization, the Aryan Scythians and the legendary Hyperboreans.

There were no many thousands of Mongols, representatives of the Mongoloid race in Russia. Most of the Horde's subjects were Rus, Rus-Scythians, Rus-Cumans, Rus-Alans, Tatars (Caucasians who have not yet lost their cultural relationship with the super-ethnos of the Rus). The Islamization and Arabization of the Horde distorted the cultural and linguistic code of the Horde elite, but the bulk of the population remained the same.

Therefore, the fierce wars that went on in the Horde itself, between the Horde and the Russian principalities, were the wars of the Russians against the Russians. It's true.

Reality is tragic. Much more tragic than it is customary to imagine. The Rus (Russians) in history have often fought each other fiercely than with external enemies. Ryazan, Moscow, Tver, Novgorod, Smolensk, Vilna, Sarai smashed each other. Therefore, the "nasty basurmans", "Tatars" constantly and easily switched to the service of the Moscow, Lithuanian-Russian, Ryazan princes, entered into marriage alliances, and entered the elite of the Russian state. And no "Mongoloid" traces were left in Russia, although in the conditions of the dominance of Mongoloid signs in mixed marriages, there should be many of them. "Mongols" and "Tatars" quietly joined the Russian nobility, became Russian boyars, princes.

We can see a similar picture in Europe, where peoples have been “constructing” for a long time. For example, in the X-XIII centuries. Poles-glades were the western branch of the Polyans-Rus who lived in the Middle Dnieper region. They could well become part of Kievan Rus. But fate turned out differently. Westernization and Catholicization turned the Slavic brothers into fierce enemies of Russia-Russia. "Lithuanians" in the Middle Ages were overwhelmingly Russian-Russians from Polotsk, Smolensk, Bryansk, Kiev, Minsk and Vilna. The state language was Russian. Only centuries of Westernization, Catholicization, Polonization and rewriting of history changed the situation. In the last century, the same situation has been observed in Little Russia, Novorossia, where an artificial ethnos - "Ukrainians" was created, "the history of Ukraine" was written. There were Russians, now “Ukrainians”. The Russian world was cut off even more.

The same was done with the White Horde. This was the Russian state. The process of degradation was caused by the Islamization and Arabization of the ruling elite of the Horde. The elite converted to Islam. This caused a sharp rejection of the main population of the horde-clans, which retained the return to the ancient faith of the Rus. In the "Legend of the Battle of Mama", the gods worshiped by the "filthy" are indicated: Perun, Salavat, Rekliy, Khors, Mohammed. That is, Islam was not yet the predominant religion in the Horde. Ordinary Horde people continued to worship the Russian gods Perun and Khors. "Reklius" is, most likely, the heritage of the Black Sea Tavro-Scythians, Hercules - Heracleos - Yaroslav.

The defeat of Mamai, the collapse of the Horde and the further rise of Moscow was associated with the Islamization of the Horde elite. The elite lost the support of the people. Orthodoxy, which during this period became truly Russian, having absorbed much of the ancient faith (the Almighty - Rod; God the Son - Khors; Theotokos - Rozhanitsy, Mokosh; George the Victorious - Perun; Saint Blasius - Veles, etc.), it turned out for ordinary Horde people are much closer, dearer than Islam.

The significance of 1380 is not only in the unification of the northeastern principalities and lands of Russia around Moscow. The battle showed that there was a new center of gravity for everything Russian, including the lands of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Russia and the White Horde. In a century and a half, this center will restore the main nucleus of the great northern empire-civilization.

Comments

[apro]

It is strange how the author put it ... and that under early feudalism there were already nations? There were Tver and Ryazan and in fact treated each other quite in the spirit of their time. They cut like any others who were not from their street.

[Sergey39]

There have always been nations. There was not always national consensus. For example, the civil war of 1918-20. and any civil war.

[Deniska999]

Nations as a political entity is a construct of the 18-20 centuries.

[Sergey39]

Quote: Deniska999

Nations as a political entity are a construct of the 18-20 centuries

Nation (from Lat. Natio - tribe, people) - a set of citizens of a certain state; a historically established politically independent community of equal and full-fledged individuals (citizens) endowed with a unique national identity. What does political education have to do with it?

[icelord]

Despite the fact that then feudalism was, and wars were fought between the overlords and which nation their vassals and squads were all about, as well as which nation was the enemy

[Sergey39]

Quote: Icelord

Despite the fact that then feudalism was, and wars were fought between the overlords and which nation their vassals and squads were all about, as well as which nation was the enemy

But this does not abolish the existence of nations.

[icelord]

Of course not, just then nobody was interested in it.

[Sergey39]

Come on. The prince could fight with each other for years, but when a foreign enemy came, they fought shoulder to shoulder with him.

[icelord]

Not once, on the contrary, were foreigners called in order to ruin the competitors, Polovtsy did it all the time, and then Mongols. I see you banned on Google, read the internecine wars of pre-Mongol Russia. And just as the princes rejoiced during the Mongol invasion, when the competitors were beaten, though later they came to them, but they did not think about it, the only time some united, in the Battle of Kalka, so they just wanted to rob there, read, you have the Internet there is

[Sergey39]

This has happened, but it all refers to internal showdowns. When interethnic hostility arose, all rivals for a while forgot about internal discord and fought together. For example, with Turks, Swedes, Germans, Poles. Of course, there were always enough traitors.

[icelord]

with the Turks, Swedes, Poles, completely different times, and there was no smell of feudalism, it was quite absolutism, in its pure, classical form, and the Germans are generally a private petty battle of Novgorod, which no one else was interested in. Well, if the current you do not mean VM2, but there, too, is not feudalism even once

[Sergey39]

On Google you can read whatever your heart desires. But there is no documentary evidence of all these and those fantasies. Peter at one time tried and destroyed most of the chronicles, even before Google.

[Deniska999]

Have you managed to photograph the bonfires with the annals?

[icelord]

Well, you can argue about the chronicles, Shpakovsky wrote about this on VO. But the fact is that it doesn't matter, everyone was like that under feudalism, why should the Russians be an exception?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Icelord

they did not think about it, the only time some united, in the battle of Kalka, so they just wanted to rob there, read it, you have an Internet

That is, what is written in the internet is the ultimate truth?

[icelord]

Have you heard anything about feudalism? Or do you admire the current communism, and despise the rest?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Icelord

Have you heard anything about feudalism?

This is your answer to my simple question -

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

That is, what is written in the internet is the ultimate truth?

[icelord]

I answer for the complete ... ignoramuses, a lot of historical works have been published on the Internet, on the topic of feudalism in general and pre-Mongol Russia in particular. Google does not write anything this is a search engine, scientists write

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Icelord

and pre-Mongol Rus in particular. Google does not write anything this is a search engine, scientists write

Honey, you are having trouble understanding simple text. Where in my texts, which are very simple, there is a hint that - "Google writes"? There is only a hint that not everything published on Google can be trusted. But, as I understand it, you cannot grasp this simple truth.

[icelord]

I have learned one truth, such as you prove something, do not respect yourself, you just do not want to know anything, but I will try for the last time. The internet is full of research confirming my point of view, and there is not a single one that refutes, I mean the research of normal recognized scientists, and not Thomas with a nose and those who have joined them, who are not even historians

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Icelord

The internet is full of studies supporting my point of view, and there is not a single one

But with this I just do not argue. Research - the sea. Theses defended are darkness. Where are the artifacts? "Golden Horde" - the most powerful state melted like snow in spring? Where is the material evidence of its existence? Crimean, Kazan, Astrakhan rudeness left material evidence of their existence. And the Golden Horde? Myth? Or is it a bluff?

[icelord]

Yes, there are a lot of artifacts, even in Japan there is a huge museum of the Mongol invasion and artifacts there is darkness, there is nothing to say about Central Asia, Persia and China, I am from Uzbekistan, we have more of them than Russian artifacts, in Russia on the Volga, four Horde cities dug up, I'm telling you you just don't want to know. Shpakovsky has a wonderful series of articles devoted to this topic.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Icelord

Yes, there are a lot of artifacts, even in Japan there is a huge museum of the Mongol invasion and artifacts there are darkness, there is nothing to say about Central Asia, Persia and China, I am from

You’ll laugh. The Golden Horde existed, as the "historians" say, on the territory of the Russian Federation, and the monuments for some reason in Japan (I try to calm my slippers, they laugh, I have completely lost my fear)
If you have Shpakovsky as a historian, then I am sincerely sorry for you.

[icelord]

You didn’t even consider it necessary to read me, I wrote about the excavations of the Horde cities on the Volga, but you don’t need it, otherwise all the greatness of the Russoarians from the great Turturia flies to the devil

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Icelord

excavations of Horde cities on the Volga,

Dear, where is the evidence that these are Horde cities? When I ask about the presence of artifacts of the existence of the "Golden Horde", I do not mean "cities". The presence of what artifacts convincingly proves that these "cities" are Horde ones? Shpakovsky said and is that enough for you? I don't. Where are the weapons, tools, household items? They could not but have been dug up during excavations. Where is all this?
Why did Kazan, Astrakhan, Bakhchisarai survive and the capital of the "Golden Horde", a more powerful state with a history of several centuries, not survived? "Historians" cannot even define the name of this capital, let alone the location.

[icelord]

Well, first of all, artifacts are found there, I did not go into the topic, but if you are interested, I think you can find information on excavations. And as for the poor preservation, during the "great Horde massacre" these cities were burned and destroyed a hundred times

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Icelord

well, firstly they find artifacts there,

Yes, of course they do. However, it is impossible to tie them to the Golden Horde. Once again I urge you to turn on your brains and understand for yourself that Mongolia had neither the resources nor the capabilities for such aggressive campaigns. Where, in Mongolia, are metalworking centers found? Yes, nowhere. And there were no shipyards for the conquest of Japan either. Or do you think that the Mongols, with their bare hands, on enthusiasm, conquered peoples much more advanced than they are? Do you believe it? It's just that someone really needs it and the "shpakovskie historians" fit into the topic. And you hung your ears.

[icelord]

Yes, they needed a little iron, they had enough, they find foundries in Mongolia, in the same Russia there was no more iron, then there was no Urals, under Peter only there began to build factories, nowhere in the world there was especially industrial production, just the consumption of iron was to others, then the metal was mainly used for tools and weapons. And now there are tons of metal structures around us, so it turns out that now the consumption of iron per person is hundreds of times higher. And the shipyards, you are kidding, probably, they had Chinese shipyards, the largest in Asia, and they owned them for a long time. There were also a lot of experienced workers and sailors, too, of course, Chinese. And there are these shipyards, and there are a lot of artifacts, and there are both Chinese and Japanese records, but there are different ones. You are in vain interrogating me, you know all this without me if you dug the topic even a little bit. You will not prove anything to me, and neither will I. So let's end this meaningless conversation

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Sergey39

But this does not abolish the existence of nations.

You are confusing nationality and political nation.

[SARANCHA1976]

Feudalism appeared in Russia later

[icelord]

And then what was it? Primitive communal system, but what about the princes different with their wars?

[DemikSPb]

Citizen and state are terms of political objects and subjects.

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: Sergey39

Nations have always been

where did you read such nonsense?

[Bar1]

how much has already been written, how much has been said, retold, but all in vain. battles, no bones, no iron, except a few arrowheads.
The fact that the Russians fought with the same non-Mongoloids, it is on the icon Sergius of Radonezh with being. Again about this they talked about many years ago, and the president of Russia began to talk about it.
The topic is closed and therefore endless. It is necessary to somehow be defined on different sides of the barricades.

[icelord]

Well, here again you are with your nonsense, by the way, give a link where Putin says this, as it is hard to believe that he has such insanity, they will laugh

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: Bar1

They spoke about this again for many years, and the President of Russia began to speak about it.

This especially touched me. When did he manage to become a historian?

Quote: Bar1

After all, Fomenko-Nosovsky conducted a study that the Battle of Kulikovo is a battle on Moscow's Kulishki,

The "historian" Bibik also has a lot of interesting studies of a similar level.

Quote: Bar1

because on the canonical Don field there are NO traces of such a grandiose battle, no bones, no iron, except for a few arrowheads.

What "flawless" cause-and-effect relationships do you derive. And what, the place where the battle took place on the Kulikovo field was found? Proved definitively and irrevocably? Found archaeological materials. who testify to this? Read or watch a video on this topic with Oleg Dvurechensky, he just wrote his Ph.D. on this topic.

Quote: Bar1

The fact that the Russians fought with the same non-Mongoloids

Prove. Do you understand at all what the ethnic composition of the nomad army could have been?

Quote: Bar1

so it is on the icon Sergius of Radonezh with being.

What does this statement mean?

Quote: Bar1

The topic is closed and therefore endless.

We found an "endless theme", well, the theme of the creation of the world is straightforward.

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: aleksejkabanets

Prove. Do you understand at all what the ethnic composition of the nomad army could have been?

Have you ever been to Kasimov? I recommend visiting. What for? And a few Tatars moved there. Back in the 15th century. And this is noticeable even visually. Almost 600 years later. It is enough just to walk around the city. See people. In the Balkans, traces of the Ottoman troops are quite visible. Genetic. Just as in modern Turkey, it is quite noticeable that Europeans were driven there, and voluntarily resettled. Why are there massive traces ... When they started a search for the remains of a very specific Napoleon general, in Smolensk ... Found it in 2 or 3 months. They pierced the DNA of relatives, and ... Yes, he is quite himself. But the Mongols, they are so elusive. Neither DNA traces, nor burials, nor even the skeleton of the famous steppe nags have been found. Apparently before the campaign against Russia / Europe, the khans of their soldiers castrated, without exception, and taught the dead / dead comrades to eat. To the last bone. Together with horses, clothes and weapons. Oh, and there were entertainers, Mongols of the 13th century, oh, and entertainers.
By the way. On the territory of modern Mongolia, too, something like that ... And with genetic traces of "numerous stolen masters", slaves, merchants, resettled warriors / aristocrats, as it is not very. Not really. And with archaeological evidence, one continuous strain. Where did it all go, can you explain?
In general, it is difficult to find material evidence of the Mongol conquests. Very difficult. Here with the Roman, for example, it is much easier. Need you ruins? Where would you like? In France or Africa? Coins? Where do you dig it from? From spain or israel? The grave of the Romans? Yes, easily. Again, where exactly to find? In england or germany? But with the Mongols .... Some muddy "descriptions" from "reliable eyewitnesses." Written in the genre of well, very alternative fiction. From the empire, which died almost a thousand years before the Mongols, artifacts - mountains, for every taste and color. From the Mongol Empire, which existed, from a historical point of view, almost yesterday ... Zero point, zero tenths. And this situation is a little annoying. The Mongols, the conquerors, are painfully virtual.

[icelord]

Again, you are beautiful with your ideas, well, don't worry, there are so many beautiful things in the autumn collections of the best fashion designers, well, I don't want to joke over you like over a bar, don't force me, I ask you for the last time. Ladies do not need to be clever, and while carrying nonsense

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: Icelord

Again, you are beautiful with your ideas, well, don't worry, there are so many beautiful things in the autumn collections of the best fashion designers, well, I don't want to joke over you like over a bar, don't force me, I ask you for the last time. Ladies do not need to be clever, and while carrying nonsense

How crazy. I read such comments and it is not clear to me that the optimization of education or the optimization of psychiatric institutions is more to blame.

[icelord]

And everyone should know their place, that's all

[icelord]

Suum kuikva (lat.) To each his own, the classical ancient Roman principle of justice. True, then the Nazis spoiled its meaning, alas

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: Lannan Shi

In general, it is difficult to find material evidence of the Mongol conquests.

Written evidence is not difficult, from China and Central Asia to Europe. By the way, many portraits of the Mongol khans have survived, mainly Chinese portraits. Almost all Mongoloids. In addition, one should not forget that along the way the Mongols annexed the Kipchaks and many other peoples.
PS here for example portraits https://all-generals.ru/index.php?id=407

[icelord]

Here you criticize me, and I already wrote to her, but she has a banana. So, first study the history of the issue, and then intercede

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: Icelord

Here you criticize me, and I already wrote to her, but she has a banana. So, first study the history of the issue, and then intercede

You see, she is a woman, and very intelligent, read her comments. No need for a man to stoop to talk to a woman in a similar tone.

[icelord]

I tell her, go put on a beautiful dress, do not climb where you do not understand anything, I don’t be rude even once, but about a clever branch I’ll call you now, read our correspondence

[icelord]

Here you are, the secret of the Russian horde and the great Tartary, somewhere in the beginning, read it, and I will definitely troll it

[Liam]

Quote: Icelord

, and I will definitely troll her

Sober or drunk again? With a hangover apology. You definitely don’t read the moral here. And to offend users

[icelord]

You would generally be silent, not for you to teach me, I want to be sober, I want to be drunk, do not meddle in your own business, you were not asked

[icelord]

Who are you, what kind of education, you teach everyone, you are clever, not me alone You are very annoying

[ver_]

... do not judge by * chasing * on the net about the gender or nationality of the opponent ..- you will be mistaken ..

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: aleksejkabanets

By the way, many portraits of Mongol khans have survived, mainly Chinese portraits. Almost all Mongoloids.

Em. Chinese portraits? Nuuuu .... Yes. Argument. Strong.

Can you tell me who it is? If chu .... Then Jesus. The one who is Christ. Option - made in China
Let's leave the Chinese painting, the most truthful and authentic in the world, aside? And then it's somehow difficult for me to understand why you feel such reverence for the Chinese. Here in the images from Marco Polo, the notorious khans are quite Europeans. Like the Mongols in Russian miniatures, they are quite Slavs. Explain why exactly the Chinese, with a slightly Mongoloid Christ, chosen as the standard of truthfulness?
In general, I am extremely skeptical about Chinese sources. I have already noted it more than once, and not even five. Chinese history was rewritten with each new dynasty. This is recognized in plain text. We read the introduction to the textbook on the history of China, edited by Meliksetov. So ... So, let's talk about something material, huh? For example, about the Mongoloid skulls, in the same layer with the conflagration of the 13th century, in Vladimir. Or about a placer of Mongolian skeletons somewhere near Ryazan or Derbent there. Or about a typically Mongolian burial of some kind of khan, somewhere in the Ukraine. This will be the argument. Irrefutable. And there cannot be such traces stupidly. Too big events, yeah.

[icelord]

A lot of this, but you don’t understand, go to the kitchen, enough of the bar, woman, you need to know your place. Have you read Gorelik? I am sure that no is not written in your paradigm

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Icelord

Have you read Gorelik?

Yes Yes. I remember. Referring to Gorelik, in response to a request for testimony from Chinggis Khan's contemporaries, it was powerful. Laponka. do not be offended only, okay? But if the style of the discussion, then ... Dress, manicure and kitchen are more suitable for you than for me.

[icelord]

And I have no doubt that I cook you better, that is, you have not read the best specialist in Mongolia? Which was to be expected, and after all, I asked so, I had to read and then debunk the layman, but no, after all, it won't work to debunk, but you want Turturiy, but there are no Mongols

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Icelord

that is, you have not read the best specialist in Mongolia?

Oh ... And what is his best specialty? Is it by chance in the proposals to "reconstruct" artifacts for museums? That is, to sculpt falsified, with a lack of real historical exhibits? And putting those same falsified on stream? It's yes, it's yours, it's Uruguayan
Laponka .... One of his articles was enough for me. Where did he crucify about Mongolian armor for horses. Iron mlin ... I do not like "specialists" who cannot count to a hundred. And already crucifying about Mongol plate cavalry... I belong to the category of chronic squirrel enjoying, well, or violently maddened.

[icelord]

And the Chinese bas-reliefs that depict these same men at arms, into the furnace, right? And everyone thinks that the Metropolitan Museum ordered its reconstruction. All the historians of the world consider him the best specialist, and you don’t want to read beautiful sales, you see, we don’t like reconstructions, but in order to make a reconstruction, you need to know how to do it. In your opinion, the complete armor in the kit is dug up, and even in such a state that it can be exhibited in a museum. Do not disgrace yourself, tell me honestly, I don’t want to know anything that I don’t like, and go cook

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Icelord

And the Chinese bas-reliefs that depict these same men at arms, into the furnace, right?

Yeah. Into the furnace. You can still go to the trash heap. Well, or decorate the kindergarten, if the norms look. For a bas-relief, a miniature, or a carpini's rags, this is all from the category - I am an artist, as I see it. And I'm a techie. I operate with numbers.
The weight of the Mongolian nag, before the infusion of Budenov blood, is less than 250 kg. Stupid statistics. The horse, without dying, quickly and with a guarantee, carries 25% of its own weight. And even with such a weight, she can confidently move only with a step, and at a trot there is a real threat of loss of balance and fall. And so that without restrictions, this is up to 20%. At 30% of its weight, it falls already when moving in steps. About the condition of her spine, after this ... That is why the cuirassier horse was from 160 cm at the withers, and weighing 700 + - kg. And plate cavalry is the exclusive privilege of sedentary peoples who practice stall keeping of horses. For the horse of the plate cavalry will die in the steppe. Stupidly zoology and anatomy of the horse. And a pretzel broadcasting about a load of more than 100 kg, for a horse weighing less than 250 ... Or on planet Earth, in the 13th century, fundamentally different laws of physics and chemistry were in force. Or your adored burner is a banal ignoramus and a charlatan. Choose what you like best.
Dixi.

[icelord]

You have seen armor, techie, I have been doing historical fencing for 30 years, I have seen them, they are light, but it does not matter, because you don't care about arguments, you are ugly, otherwise you wouldn’t toil with garbage, I feel sorry for you. Horse 250 kilos
Budenovskie blood, oh, and the Marshal would have scolded for such insinuations. And Gorelik is a charlatan, no one understood, and you guessed right away without reading

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Icelord

Horse 250 kilos

Less paw, less. These are modern Mongolians 250-270. Those that are a mixture of old-style Mongolians and Budenovites supplied from the USSR. And the old one did not always reach 250.

Quote: Icelord

Budenovskie blood, oh, and the Marshal would have scolded for such insinuations.

"In advanced farms, they are now preparing the reserve stock of hay for the winter for horses and other types of livestock, erecting the simplest buildings to protect animals from the weather. Correct selection and selection are introduced, as well as crossing Mongolian horses with improving breeds (Don, trotting, etc.). "Budyonny, Book about a horse. Volume 1. And so, yes, beguiled, not with the Budenov breed, but with the Don. Which of course is very important. For Donchaks are as small as Mongolians And even smaller.

[icelord]

Donkey more Krasavishna, do you even know how to ride a horse?

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Icelord

Donkey bigger

It depends on what. If Spanish, then yes. If it is burning, then hardly.

Quote: Icelord

You even know how to ride a horse

And even in the plans to acquire their own, as finances allow.

[icelord]

Well, that's nice, but not by Gorelik alone, there is a monograph by Solovyov, the steppes of Eurasia in the Middle Ages by Pletnev, they certainly require some patience and thoughtfulness, but I doubt your talents in this area, but if you master it and it is not enough, I still have a lot who is, please, but you will not read, for you the Institute of Archeology of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR is not an authority. You need Mongols not to exist, and you don't need artifacts that you deny so much

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Icelord

for you the Institute of Archeology of the USSR Academy of Sciences is not an authority.

Should he be, for me? That's the news ..... Well, ok. I'll try to respect the authority. For example, Mongolian. Specifically, using the example of their capital, Karakorum, which a respected Institute of Archeology dug up.
So. The famous Karakorum palace, according to the authoritative institute of archeology ras. The size of the foundation is 40 by 40 meters. OK. No less respected Institute of History, all the same RAS. In their version, the length of the palace facade is the flight of an arrow. Oh how. Could you tell me, dear, which bow has an arrow range of 40 meters? A kindergarten craft, perhaps, made from a rotten stick and an elastic band from panties.
What we have. Some have a description of the palace that does not match the find. Others have a find that does not match the description. But both sides agree that this is the very palace, and the very Karakorum. Em. With at least the most modest ability for independent thinking, and not a parrot quoting of "authoritative" sources, it is more than obvious. Pundits, in pursuit of fame and material bonuses, stupidly scored on all sorts of nonsense, like plausibility. Em? And these, I will not specify who exactly, because swearing is prohibited by the rules of the site, and it is impossible to characterize these figures with censorship, I must respect and tremble before their authority? To paraphrase a little. The more I read of historians, the more I love dogs.
And the funniest thing is that not so far from Mongolia is the area that is now called karakorum. And what's even funnier, the description of Chingiz, as blue-eyed and red-haired, just perfectly fits the description of those who lived there 1000 years ago. And even the name of his genus - blue-eyed, falls with 100% accuracy in historical realities. And this is confirmed not only from written sources, but also found by mummies. And the heirs of this people, to fuck what aggressive. Unlike the completely peaceful Mongols. And cattle breeding there was stable at least in winter. And with metallurgy everything is more than. And the creation of a really adequate cavalry, not only ultra light, incapable of anything except plundering absolutely unarmed, even without a pitchfork, but also a heavy one, fully capable of rolling even Russian or French cavalry, is not a problem at all. However, as well as siege engines, for the Karakorum people of that time were by no means the steppe savages. And they had the traditions of the state, and the professional army too. And there is no need to invent fairy tales about the sheep, which has suddenly matured to the idea of ​​a super-empire. But ... the inhabitants of the Karakorum do not fit into the thesis about the Mongols, sucked from the finger by an alternatively gifted "authority". And no one will study anything there. And this bunch of businessmen from science, against which many scammers look like a model of decency, should I perceive it as an authority?
Py.Sy.
By the way. Karakorum descriptions mention an almond growing nearby. If you can point out exactly where in Mongolia there are almond groves ... I will immediately be filled with respect for the Institute of Archeology of the Russian Academy of Sciences. Until then ... Having spent not a month or even half a year in Mongolia, and not having seen a single such tree ... I treat this very institution exclusively with contempt.

[icelord]

Okay, the scientists of the FSE lie, believe Thomas with nosyara and respected Mr. Samsonov. I treat you too ..... with humor, if my wife would just lock it at home and would not let it out of the kitchen until the nonsense passes, I had a lot of them, wives, how to treat your sister in the course

[andrew42]

"I've seen, they are light," - are they really titanium? What kind of reconstruction is this? -One good steel bump is already quite straining the neck, felt in the spine. And the sub-hurry -? And in general, in addition to armor, a warrior has to carry a lot of small junk with him - you know, the campaign, you can't leave everything on the cart - it will go away on the move.

[icelord]

Well, along with a sword and a shield, 25-30 kilos, modern soldiers carry more, and this is also distributed over the body, minus you are our uneducated ... Let's chronoload assent to the strange little lady ... And just everything is on the cart, there are no fools, but if the carter leaves, they will hang

[icelord]

This is how, Chinese scientists believe Gorelik, Russian identities, even American and British, who seem to care nothing about the Mughals, print, refer, and the lady who does not know how to cook does not believe. All books will be destroyed now, armor costing a lot of money for the trash heap, China will demolish all its bas-reliefs, and stupid historians will kill the wall out of shame. But we are in vain on Gorelik, he is not the only one, and others, he just writes quite easily, but there are much more abstruse but very detailed monographs

[ver_]

... there is a photo on the net where the Russian Samson - Alexander Zass carries a horse out of the river on his shoulders .. Alexander himself weighed 80 kg. ..

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Icelord

... that is, you haven't read the best specialist in Mongolia? What to expect

Excuse me, did you appoint Gorelik as "the best specialist in Mongolia"?

[icelord]

No, Americans, when exactly he was invited to the Metropolitan Museum, I hope to argue with the fact that the Metropolitan, along with Britain, is the best and most competent museum in the world?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Icelord

No Americans

Well, if the Americans, tady oh.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Icelord

A lot of it, but you don't understand

Weighty argument

[icelord]

And I, in your opinion, a parrot, or something, two hundred times in several branches I repeat the same thing, and this stupid lady is talking about lying FSE, I won't read anything better than anyone else.

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: Lannan Shi

Justify why exactly the Chinese,

To be honest, the first ones were caught. I’ll see Arab, European, later. Here's a look at popular science lectures, and there are links to sources, and logically.
And Oleg Dvurechensky, who is digging this hour at the "Kulikovo Field", specializes in that historical period, he has the same video.

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: aleksejkabanets

Here's a look at popular science lectures ...

Content from YouTube is not inserted correctly. Klim Zhukov about the Mongol invasion of Russia, part one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3A_yaw--0w&list=PLQCYG6lKBuTZrSoPMNSUCI_lS0BBBK7it&index=248

[icelord]

Another moralist, huh? Looks like there were no sales of three wives, let's teach the stubborn, how tired of me remember, but they will pass only when there is nothing to say

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: aleksejkabanets

Here's a look at popular science lectures, and there are links to sources, and logically.

Okay. I'll take a look tomorrow. That's just ... Hardly convinced. A couple of posts above, probably the tenth time, if not the twentieth, she explained. Well, the Mongols are incapable of creating troops. That's just by virtue of the laws of nature. Gangs, even relatively large, well, yes, perhaps. Army - absolutely not. Well, the Mongolian army does not fit into the laws of the universe and that's it. By the way, the testimonies of those Europeans who really existed in history, and actually clashed in equestrian combat with the same Kalmyks, and the Kalmyks and Mongols are one and the same ... cavalry, even without firearms, of the late 18th-early 19th centuries, doomed to rapid destruction.
By the way. This is not the first time I recommend it. Visit naadam. Well, or at least look on the internet. How they really look, those same Mongolian archers and horsemen. And what they really can. as it was with Eeyore. A pitiful sight, heartbreaking. The internet is not as sad as live, but that's enough.

[SARANCHA1976]

Klim Sanych specializes precisely in the medieval history of Russia, there is about all the battles and about the politics of those times. Instead of a govnosracha in the comments, I recommend to everyone

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: SARANCHA1976

Klim Sanych specializes precisely in the medieval history of Russia, there is about all the battles and about the politics of those times. Instead of a govnosracha in the comments, I recommend to everyone

Dvurechensky also has very good lectures on the topic.

[blackice]

Written evidence is not difficult, from China and Central Asia to Europe. By the way, many portraits of Mongol khans have survived

We have already figured out the written evidence, rewrite history like two fingers on the asphalt.
Portraits? And what do they give, what do they prove? The fact that this or that character was present in the story. The fact that he was the owner of half of the world will not confirm this.
Everything is controversial and ambiguous. Great empires leave a prominent mark on the planet, which cannot be said about the Great Mongol Empire.

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: blackice

Great empires leave a prominent mark on the planet, which cannot be said about the Great Mongol Empire.

Was the great empire created by Alexander the Great? Was. What "prominent mark on the planet" has she left? Let's compare these "tracks" here in the comments, if you don't mind of course.

[blackice]

Are you seriously?
That is, what is found by archaeologists is not enough for you?
These are not Easter cards or the notes of another great historian.
Just take the trouble to at least read something on this topic, in the same garbage wikipedia. There are many links to scientific papers on this topic.

[icelord]

That's right, we figured it out, there are a lot of them and they are indisputable, and you, together with the stupid housewife, can repeat as much as you like, lie to the FSE, make the people laugh

[icelord]

It's easy for him to rewrite history

[blackice]

Especially easy for people like you.
You don't need a knife for a fool
You will quietly sing along to him,
And do what you like with him.
What was good in the USSR, that there, in the films, even for children, the meaning was laid, but apparently it did not work for everyone.
Not everyone has learned to think independently, and even more so to draw some conclusions.
As for history, if you were even a bit smarter, you would have noticed that since 1984, history has been cut more than once, you are our genius.

[icelord]

Yes, I'm not a fool, unlike ... and I also have two higher educations, a janitor

[blackice]

Having a college degree does not mean having the ability to think intelligently. Life experience, bum.
PySy. Do you think you are the only one who can have two higher educations?
Hello psychiatrists. Only a not very smart person screams about his genius.

[Serg65]

Quote: Lannan Shi

And a few Tatars moved there

My dear friend, Kasimov is the patrimony of the son of the Kazan Khan Mukhamed, comrade Kasym and the basis of the Kasimov Khanate, the Mishari Tatars of Turkic origin, lived there since ancient times!

Quote: Lannan Shi

But the Mongols, they are so elusive. No DNA traces, no graves

Dear friend, how many indigenous Mongols were in Batu's army ... or Mamai ??? And by the way, the Russians living in the South of Russia Mongolian haplogroup C is present..1-2% but it is present!

Quote: Lannan Shi

with material evidence of the Mongol conquests it is somehow difficult. Very difficult. Here with the Roman, for example, it is much easier.

to compare the solid Roman Empire and the nomadic state of the Mongols ??? Want to find a grave? Take a shovel and .... all the Wild Field is at your disposal !!! Can repeat the feat of Great Ukrov, you will dig a new sea !!!

Quote: Lannan Shi

From the Mongol Empire, which existed, from a historical point of view, almost yesterday.

Names of Moscow streets such as Ordynka, Basmannaya, Yamskaya, Karamyshevskaya ... where did they come from?

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Serg65

My friend, and how many indigenous Mongols were in Batu's army ... well, or Mamai ???

Simply put. Mongoloids in the army were, in the number hardly distinguishable from zero. The same Chingiz comes from the blue-eyed clan. Very close to the region, which is now called the karakorum, mummies of light-eyed and fair-haired people are dug up. There are also written sources on the topic of their residence there, around the time of Chingiz. But Chingiz was Mongol, and the conquest was Mongolian. Well yes. The logic is ... Funny.

Quote: Serg65

And by the way, Russians living in the South of Russia have Mongolian haplogroup C ... 1-2% but present!

So. Information for. In the south of the Russian Federation, there are still Kalmyks. Among even more than 1% of the population of the Southern Federal District. And also haplo C is available in about 10-12% of Dagestanis. Dagestan legs, however. And no one canceled the mixing of those living in the neighborhood. Anyway. Haplo C is available in Australia and in Brazil. Which is somewhat outside the scope of the most daring theories of the Mongolophiles. And by the way, about the birds. Typical for Mongolians - C and C3. But ascribed to the Chingizids C2a .... The Mongols in general do not belong to the side. From this point of view, the Chingizids are closer to the Polynesians than to the Mongols.

Quote: Serg65

Roman Empire and the nomadic state of the Mongols

Ugums. From the Scythians, quite nomadic for themselves, and who lived more than 1000 years earlier than the Mongols, there are traces for some reason.

Quote: Serg65

Names of Moscow streets such as Ordynka, Basmannaya, Yamskaya, Karamyshevskaya ... where did they come from?

Certainly not from Mongolia. Horde, yam, karamysh, basma. These are all Turkic words. To hear them from the Mongol, you will have to teach him first. This is another point. Talking about the fact that there was no Mongol empire. Take English. Frankly few Normans moved to England when compared with the general population of the country. AND? And the English language is full of French borrowings. Almost a third of them consists. Where are Mongolian borrowings in the territories of the former empire? If there are, then they are so isolated that you are tortured to search. But the Turkic ones ... You know, from the point of view of off historians, the Mongols look so politically correct tolerasts that modern ones against their background are a cross between a torquemada and a thin machine gunner. How does this combine with the brutal brutality of the Mongols, about which the same off historians tell? Riddle.
You know what it is. There is so much blatant nonsense in the fables about the Tatar-Mongols ... But if you remove the word Mongols, then everything becomes simple and logical. The meaning of attaching the Mongols to the Turks? Personally, I only see one. Politics in a pure and uncomplicated form. Demonization of Russia, or rather the then Russian Empire. By the way, if you remember exactly where this nonsense about the Mongols came from, and then read the German propaganda, from WWI and WWII, about the hordes of Mongol-Cossacks in the first, and Mongolian commissars in the second ... where and which dog rummaged. But to understand Russian Mongolophiles ... It's hard for me. Foam at the mouth to defend clearly delusional fabrications, promoted exclusively for anti-Russian propaganda ... Hmm. Oh.

[icelord]

Who are you, creative housewife are you ours, said nonsense about Temujin's blue eyes? He had them yellow, that is, light brown, and he was not blond even once, but red, this is the case between the Chinese and the Japanese and is not inherited. And all his descendants were normal Mongols, brunettes. Until you read smart people, head to the kitchen yeah, the Germans were involved in anti-Russian propaganda and the Chinese with the Japanese, and the Persians and everyone else in the world except the Papuans. It's good to disgrace myself, I'm tired of laughing,

[Serg65]

Guys, I certainly understand that you have a great desire to prove that the Protorussians dug up the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, but proving this with your superficial knowledge of history is extremely difficult !!!

Quote: Lannan Shi

Mongoloids in the army were, among the few distinguishable from zero

The Mongoloid race is one of the large races of mankind, widespread in North, East, Southeast Asia.

Who did you have under the Mongoloids?

Quote: Lannan Shi

The same Chingiz comes from the blue-eyed clan.

With what fright ??? Where did you see "blue" and "eye" in the word "Borzhigin" ???

Quote: Lannan Shi

Very close to the region, which is now called the karakorum, mummies of light-eyed and fair-haired people are dug up. There are also written sources on the topic of their residence there, around the time of Chingiz.

My soul, if I tell you that the ancient Kazakh city of Taraz was built by Roman legionaries, then you will immediately conclude that the Roman Empire extended to the Celestial Mountains? Moreover, I will make you happy ..... the founders of this very Taraz were the ancestors of the Huns and Mongols and from this we conclude ... in the fortieth year BC. there was an alliance between the Roman Empire and the powerful nomadic alliance of the Hunnu peoples !!! Can you imagine what field opens up for your fantasies !!!
Well, as for your fair-haired and blue-eyed, everything is simple to the point of banality ... the last Caucasians of southern Siberia were the Yenisei Kirghiz, destroyed by this very Genghis Khan!

Quote: Lannan Shi

These are all Turkic words. To hear them from the Mongol, you will have to teach him first

You can't even read Wikipedia thoughtfully, download everything to the top!

Horde (ancient Türkic ordu - "headquarters, residence of the khan, palace" [1]) is a military-administrative organization among the Turkic and Mongolian peoples.

The Turkic and Mongolian languages ​​have a lot in common, because their speakers have lived in the neighborhood since the very inception of these peoples. If you read at least the story of Genghis Khan, you would know that, for example, Khan Yesugei, Genghis Khan's father, was killed by the Tatars! And in 1202, Genghis Khan himself came out against the Tatars, taking revenge, including for his father!

Quote: Lannan Shi

But to understand Russian Mongolophiles ... It's hard for me. Foam at the mouth to defend clearly delusional fabrications that were promoted exclusively for anti-Russian propaganda

And where are the Mongolophiles ??? Russia has a very ancient history and not only ancient, but also true, not invented like many "young" nations !!!! Why change it by inventing crazy facts for everyone to laugh at? Was there a Tatar Mongol Horde? Was! Has Russia ground it? Grind! And I am proud that my ancestors did not perish in this struggle, like many nations, but survived and ultimately won !!! And finally ... At Kublai Khan In Beijing, among the personal guards there were Russian wars, for them Kublai bought the land and built houses and a church !!!

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Serg65

Who did you have under the Mongoloids?

Oddly enough, but Mongoloids. I don’t even insist that they present a specific Mongol. Mongoloids in general, at least some, even the most overwhelming. But no .... That in view of the Mongolian traditions of the funeral, says only one thing. There were no Mongols in Russia. Generally. Do you know these traditions? I understand you don’t know. And traditions are simple. Where they died, they left them there. Exceptions are only for super VIP persons. And if the Mongol Empire were a reality and not a myth, hundreds of Mongolian skeletons would be found from Baikal to Poland. If not in thousands. And they are not. Generally.

Quote: Serg65

With what fright ??? Where did you see "blue" and "eye" in the word "Borzhigin" ???

From the writings of a certain master Rashid ad Din I saw. He wrote in black and white that the Esugei's children were completely blue-eyed. And deduced from here the name of the genus. Of course, you can not say that you know better than a contemporary. Well, or accuse him of Fomenkovism. Although, as for me, it's better to honestly and frankly admit that Mongolophiles don't know the sources they refer to. Even key

Quote: Serg65

You can't even read Wikipedia thoughtfully, download everything to the top!

Skip actually.

Quote: Serg65

Turkic and Mongolian languages ​​have a lot in common

Agas. For example, the Mongolian language also has the word yam. And its translation is bones. And if the word yam was from Mongol, and not from the Turks, it would mean not a post station, but a cemetery. So do not get carried away with reading the wiki, there is not everything in it. Although you can put forward a version that Chingiz was a big fan of the Olbanian tyrnet language, and the word yam came from the expression "to throw the bones."

Quote: Serg65

Well, as for your fair-haired and blue-eyed, everything is simple to the point of banality ... the last Caucasians of southern Siberia were the Yenisei Kirghiz, destroyed by this very Genghis Khan!

Can you ask a question? Who was involved in the supply of cocaine to Siberia? In the 16-17 centuries? And then the Russian troops and settlers were sure that they were slaughtering with the Yenisei Kirghiz, and those have already been killed for 400 years .... And then there it is ... Glitches were attacked. And what did you do with those who refused to smoke? Cut, hung, drown? Do not hesitate, anneal further.

Quote: Serg65

My soul, if I tell you that the ancient Kazakh city of Taraz was built by Roman legionaries, then you immediately

I would advise you not to start drinking in the morning. Well, or at least I would recommend a heavier snack.
She spoke more than once. And not ten. Only those who do not know anything about Mongolia and the Mongols can seriously talk about the Mongol invasion. That is, nothing at all.

[Serg65]

Quote: Lannan Shi

I would advise you not to start drinking in the morning. Well, or at least I would recommend a heavier snack

Hysterics, my friend, strongly affects the psyche, Persenchik to help you!

Quote: Lannan Shi

Russian troops and settlers were sure that they were cutting with the Yenisei Kyrgyz

The Yenisei Kyrgyz ended in the 13th century, and for the Russian troops and settlers, everyone with slanting eyes and a flat nose was Kyrgyz, just like the Kazakhs before the Soviet regime!

Quote: Lannan Shi

For example, the Mongolian language also has the word yam. And its translation is bones. And if the word yam was from Mongol, and not from the Turks, it would mean not a post station, but a cemetery

Yam (Mongolian: Өrtөө, Örtöö, checkpoint) was a postal or message delivery system widely used and expanded by Genghis Khan and subsequent Great Khans and Khans. Yam (route) - https://ru.qaz.wiki/wiki/Yam_(route)

good luck to you!

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Serg65

The Yenisei Kyrgyz ended in the 13th century, and for the Russian troops and immigrants, everyone with slanting eyes and a flat nose was Kyrgyz,

Yes Yes. I realized, stupid ancestors, you alone are on a white horse

Quote: Serg65

Yam (Mongolian: Өrtөө, Örtöö, checkpoint) was a postal or message delivery system widely used and expanded by Genghis Khan and subsequent Great Khans and Khans. Yam (route) - https://ru.qaz.wiki/wiki/Yam_(route)

She spoke the same. No need to crawl on a vetch. There is much more lies in it than truth.
This is what the Mongolian alphabet looks like.

And this is how the inscriptions on their checkpoint look.

I would like to draw your attention, not a word of pits, nor the squiggles you ripped off from the wiki, are not there in principle. And the word kpp itself is abbreviated as ULL or HIL. I was not puzzled at all how the contraction was related to type or size, I did not need it. But the fact that both Yam and your hieroglyphs are completely absent there, and the above abbreviations, from the delirium pulled from the wiki, are fundamentally impossible ... Fact.
By the way. In the Mongolian language, the word yam is completely absent. I got into the dictionary and checked my sclerosis. But the word route is. Translated into Mongolian, it sounds like .... Route. And the closest sounding to the pits is the pit. Translation - goat. The question arises. What did Genghis Khan's messengers ride on?
I can repeat it again. Live in Mongolia for 2-3 months. The desire to collect all sorts of nonsense will disappear.

[icelord]

What are you all writing that? I told you to the kitchen She compares modern Mongolia with medieval, so everywhere now, except for the wild tribes of Africa and the Amazon, live differently Yeah, the Cyrillic alphabet introduced after the Mongolian socialist revolution in the 20th century is of course strong proof that the Mongols are Russians. I've been looking specifically for your posts every morning, they make my day, charge me with vigor and good mood. In short, I laugh like a horse The main thing is not to give up, debunk the damned Russophobes, keep it up

[Bar1]

and you will find the icon in the net

[Bar1]

Quote: aleksejkabanets

What "flawless" cause-and-effect relationships do you derive. And what, the place where the battle took place on the Kulikovo field was found? Proved definitively and irrevocably? Found archaeological materials. who testify to this? Read or watch a video on this topic with Oleg Dvurechensky, he just wrote his Ph.D. on this topic.

[Simargl]

Quote: aleksejkabanets

And what, the place where the battle took place on the Kulikovo field was found? Proved definitively and irrevocably? Found archaeological materials. who testify to this?

Found, proved, showed, found.

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: Simargl

Found, proved, showed, found.

While "in progress"

[Simargl]

Quote: aleksejkabanets

While "in progress"

What's in progress? The very place corresponding to the event was found. There is a process of research and description, clarification of details.

[icelord]

So why won't there be a link? Current minus? By the way, I will not minus you, why and so everything is clear with you. But even if they wrote, I’m supposedly merged, Putin didn’t say such a thing, and he couldn’t say it, because it’s ridiculous, otherwise I'm waiting

[Bar1]

Quote: Icelord

So why won't there be a link? Current minus? By the way, I will not minus you, why and so everything is clear with you. But even if they wrote, I’m supposedly merged, Putin didn’t say such a thing, and he couldn’t say it, because it’s ridiculous, otherwise I'm waiting

Frosya you are a burlakova and here you are also talking about historical problems.

[icelord]

And what does this mean? That there will be no links, because I am lying, but I do not confess? I don’t know who Frosya is, but my name is Igor, and the next time for such rudeness, I’ll send to the sandpipers in the place of the battle of the sandpiper

[Bar1]

and you there with the rest of the minusatras are not the same thing, or what?

[icelord]

In terms of common sense, perhaps, but you continue to amuse not childishly, you are our Russoary

[icelord]

Well, no, I knew that Putin, to put it mildly, is not always right, but that ... well, I don't care, he's not a historian even once and his opinion is insignificant for me

[Bar1]

of course you don't care now, what else can you say?

[icelord]

Yes, a lot of things, but it's useless, you want a bright dream about turturia, and you reject everything that does not fit into this concept, well, good luck

[Bar1]

luck is needed to play cards, and business requires success.

[icelord]

You will definitely not see success, it requires reason, but from you ... alas

[Bar1]

it's disgusting to talk to you ...

[icelord]

And with you it's funny, but a little sad, if at first I hoped that you were just trolling everyone, now I understand. Diagnosis

[BAI]

.Because Fomenko-Nosovsky conducted a study that the Battle of Kulikovo is a battle on Moscow's Kulishki,

Fomenko and Nosovsky are suckers. The battle took place on the Lebedyan fields near the village of Perekhval. A large mass grave was also found there.

Weapons of the Battle of Kulikovo, found by a search engine on the Lebedyanskiy fields in 2014-15.

[Bar1]

Quote: BAI

Fomenko and Nosovsky are suckers. The battle took place on the Lebedyan fields near the village of Perekhval. A large mass grave was also found there.

you suckers
let's link to these fields Lebedyanskiy.

[BAI]

What kind of alternative historian are you if you do not know all points of view on this issue? Despite your rudeness and inability to use the Internet - please: https://nikolaiskuratov.livejournal.com/2273.html
Indeed, in addition to alternative historians, there are also folk.

[Bar1]

you yourself a boor is still the one who starts to be rude here first?
and these finds are just laughter, that's all that remains of 200 thousand. warriors who met on the field according to the most conservative estimates.

[icelord]

Well, Thomas and Nosyara are certainly a hundred times worse ... Swindlers and moral inadequacies, rotting the mind of narrow-minded and stupid people, I already wrote, I regret that the Inquisition and Auto-da-fe were canceled, as a Catholic I sincerely regret

[kamakama]

200 thousand people is a fantastic figure for the Middle Ages. It was not easy to feed an army of this size even in the 19th century (the groaning of Napoleon's foragers is an example of this, although there was a talk about 500 thousand, but agriculture was also more efficient). I will not say anything about banal sanitation - with this placement, in 3-5 days mass dysentery is at least

[icelord]

And where did you read about such an insane figure, in the art book Batu, authored by Jan? Well, you read Dumas and talk about French history, but better than the Witcher Sapkowski, that's where the truth is homely

[kamakama]

No, there is this funny figure scattered in the comments. Even Senkevich, who was Henryk, described the process of preparing for war more reliably - there they only prepared food for 3 months (and this was without refrigerators, one drying, drying and salting) for 30-40 thousand people in front of Grunwald. And a banal calculation - an adult man needs roughly 200 grams of protein + 500 grams of cereals, bread or vegetables a day to look more or less a warrior, and not just drag his legs. Therefore, an army of 10 thousand people eats 2 thousand kilos or 2 tons of meat a day. This is such a small herd of 20 heads. The norm of the march is 20 km a day, it is 200 kilometers from Kolomna to Kulikov field - 10 days it leaves = 200 heads of cattle for each tumen. This is not counting other food and equipment. I doubt that in all the surrounding villages there will be so many EXTRA heads

[icelord]

But especially enlightened ones voice it, and do not confuse a knight with a nomad, they cannot prepare anything at home, but you can drive rams with you. There were seven tumens, that is, a maximum of 70 thousand, but of course there were less, according to the staffing table and now it does not happen, they went separately, so Baty, for example, got stuck near Kozelsk, while he sent a messenger, while his brother came, in short, all these arguments are voiced not readers, but writers who are too lazy to get into Wikipedia, not to mention something more serious, or maybe they just don't want to, because they want turturia

[kamakama]

What difference does it make which cattle? Sheep they will even be more hardy than cattle. According to the staff of the imperial army of RI, there was such a position in the company - a cattle driver. But there were also standards for the purchase of meat locally. Apparently, they didn't really hope for their reserves.
Who cannot prepare at home? The nomads? I'm upset, but the preservation of meat in the form of kazy or basturma under the saddle is still developed with them

[icelord]

So I’m talking about this, they don’t care what is at home, what is on the campaign, and there are no supplies, they themselves run with the army, it’s even better on the campaign, you can rob

[ver_]

... Kozelsk Yaroslav burned down due to an epidemic of a terrible disease in the city - the monks reported about that .. There was simply no other way out ..

[Kelwin]

On this scrap metal it is written just like that - "Kulikovskoe, I give a tooth"?)) Well, they dug up some rubbish in the fields. There are no reliable dating methods, and there are no instrumentally PROVING anything either. Some unfounded statements of absolutely useless armchair dinosaurs with a corn on the fifth point, an empty head and galactic aplomb. Historians ... ugh.

[icelord]

Everything is both dating and a completely reliable definition of belonging. But you, like any commie, are ignorant

[Kelwin]

Quote: Icelord

Everything is both dating and a completely reliable definition of belonging. But you, like any commie, are ignorant

Well, of course, everything around is fools, and the truth is revealed only to a select few) This is how the field near Tula was drawn, as a result of the armchair inspiration, not otherwise, and only ignoramuses are perplexed, looking at the map - what genius ancestors they were, they hammered the arrow away so that no one did not interfere. It's very heroic to fight in some hole without logistic support after a three-month campaign))
What do you think, if armchair clever people are loaded with zhrachka equipment for three months and sent with a pendel from the capital to Tula on foot along country roads, how quickly will they decide that the head physician is a sadist?))
In fact, it is better to be an ignoramus than a historian - you do not have to fade in dusty archives, inventing explanations for tons of academic nonsense and tremblingly waiting for the funding of this drama circle to be cut off)

[icelord]

Of course you know better

[Kelwin]

Igor, thanks for the adequate reaction) +1. not everyone can score))

[Simargl]

Quote: BAI

Fomenko and Nosovsky are suckers.

 No!!!

LOKH - a person deceived by a bully.
They - scammers: deceive and mislead for profit.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Bar1

After all, Fomenko-Nosovsky conducted a study that the Battle of Kulikovo is a battle on the Moscow Kulishki, because on the canonical Don field there are NO traces of such a grandiose battle, no bones, no iron, except for a few arrowheads.

Type in a search engine: "Battle of the Don" and you will be happy.

[alesi13]

Putin ruled in Putivl, Luzhkov founded Moscow, and in general everything before Gorbachev is unreliable (c)

[zenion]

Nothing strange because the Russian troops were more modernly armed. They took the icon of such and such a mother and flew around the battlefield on a drone. After this flight, the Russian troops were left to collect horse-drawn bows, arrows and boomerangs. The Russians never fought with the Russians because they were all patriots of the Moscow district, as they are now.

[Civil]

Quote: apro

It is strange how the author put it ... and that under early feudalism there were already nations? There were Tver and Ryazan and in fact treated each other quite in the spirit of their time. They cut like any others who were not from their street.

Yes, little has changed)
1. Gentlemen declares war in order to defend their commercial interests or to increase power. Everywhere except Western Europe) because there are families).
2. Serfs - meat, statistics, in the name of the king / president die on the battlefield. Their opinion is not interesting. It is their duty.
3. Crowds of fools are bred to the same religious wars.

PS This does not apply to the Soviet state in part of its history.

[icelord]

Why this suddenly does not concern, Dzhugashvili and his accomplices, unless you can compare with the Nazis

[Bar1]

in general, the most offensive in this story, the OIs are tearing the soles right on the go.
For example, the word Don was always read by the name Russian, but as soon as the same names were revealed DON-in France-Dordon-river
-Duna is the source of Rhone, which is actually Rosna.
- there are several rivers Don and Dun in England.
-Temsa-DONZA
-In Canada, the city of Toronto stands on the Don River.
-On the old map of Ortelius in 1570, the Yangtze River was called Duna.
-On the old maps of the Far East there was the Dondon River, now it has been replaced by some kind of fictitious name.
-Dnipro-Don Prushchy
-Tiber is the Dnieper
-Duna -Dvina
-Danube-
-Donets
-Dniester Don flowing.
these are ALL Russian names, but their etymologists have already taken away from the Russians, now these are Scythian-Sarmatian names, but the Scythians did not leave behind written sources, how did the tradition determine that DON is a Scythian-Persian word?

[Deniso]

The author is at odds with the logic. On the one hand, he declares that the Mongol-Tatars en masse went into the service of the Russian princes, on the other, that anthropologists do not observe traces of cross-breeding with the Mongols. Which is natural - Basurmans in Russia did not breed - they dragged the meadow women to themselves. The result - boldy mestizo, bred, just in the Horde. In turn, in the necropolises of the Horde cities on the Volga, a third of the buried are Mongoloids, most of the rest are carriers of the anthropological type of the Central Asian interfluve - the Khorezmians. Well, in the mounds of the XIV-XV centuries in the South Russian steppes - up to 90% of the Mongoloids

[Vol4ara]

Quote: apro

It is strange how the author put it ... and that under early feudalism there were already nations? There were Tver and Ryazan and in fact treated each other quite in the spirit of their time. They cut like any others who were not from their street.

Previously, stupid people were called stupid, now they are alternatives. The sin of sodomy used to close the road to heaven for believers, but now the Pope has recognized the right to cohabitation of LGBT people. How vividly you understand in the modern world the need to give your child a good education in order to learn to think critically and to distinguish populist bullshit from the truth, how glad I am that I got an education in the old days, without any exam, and the teacher could kick you out by the ear into the corridor if you indulge

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: apro

It is strange how the author put it .... and that under early feudalism there were already nations?

He invented it himself, "destroyed" the author himself. Please quote from an article where the author mentions the word "nation". The author speaks about the Russian ethnos. And this, as you understand, is not the same thing.

[Daniil Konovalenko]

Most of the subjects of the Golden Horde were Russians. The fierce wars that Moscow waged with the Horde and which went on in the Horde kingdom itself were the wars of the Russians against the Russians.

We decided that obscurantism is on Fridays. Today is only Tuesday.

[sergo1914]

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

Most of the subjects of the Golden Horde were Russians. The fierce wars that Moscow waged with the Horde and which went on in the Horde kingdom itself were the wars of the Russians against the Russians.

We decided that obscurantism is on Fridays. Today is only Tuesday.

On Fridays - Tartary (Great). The rest of the days - Russia / Horde. There is no need to put obstacles to the great stream of consciousness. Let it work in line. And then he will bring in some other topic. And that's all.

[Daniil Konovalenko]

Like today is "fish day" ..

[sergo1914]

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

Like today is "fish day" ..

Well no. Periodic unsystematic flashes of consciousness.

[Daniil Konovalenko]

The NVP is peculiar, a flash of consciousness from the left, a flash of the same from the right ..

[Pereira]

The author is not in the subject. At the Crimea, everything has already been explained to Mamai - this is theirs hero-Cossack, and his army is ukroshumer. And in general, they won.

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: sergo1914

On Fridays - Tartary (Great). The rest of the days - Russia / Horde. There is no need to put obstacles to the great stream of consciousness. Let it work in line. And then he will bring in some other topic. And that's all.

Are there few "interesting" topics? Well, only Russia / Horde? There is also Hyperborea, inhabited by Rousseau-Aryans. You can even argue about who dug the Black Sea, the ancient Ukrainians, or all the same Russo-Aryans.
If a person is not burdened with "superfluous" knowledge, the Fomenki-Nosov and other Bibiks come "with a bang."

[Woodman]

The battle began at about 12 o'clock with a duel between Peresvet and the Horde warrior-batyr Chulubei. Both heroes were killed.

Both? Chulubei is also a hero?

[Sergey39]

Quote: Lesovik

Both? Chulubei is also a hero?

So they were both Russians.

[Fan-fan]

I was very interested in ancient history and specifically in the Battle of Kulikovo. So: there was no duel of heroes, these are inventions of churchmen. Since only in the monasteries at that time were chronicles kept and the earliest mention of this battle was written 150 years after the Battle of Kulikovo, i.e. already written according to rumors and stories distorted many times over 150 years. And our propaganda already rubbed us that this battle was the beginning of the liberation of Russia from the Tatar-Mongol yoke. There was no yoke, but there was a squabble between their own and their own. After all, the territory of the Horde is known, this is the space between the Volga and the Dnieper rivers, and what kind of Tatars are there with the Mongols? Our people are everywhere.

[dmmyak40]

After all, the territory of the Horde is known, this is the space between the Volga and the Dnieper rivers, and what kind of Tatars are there with the Mongols?
And in the Amudarya-Syrdarya area? Irtysh with Tobol? Have you heard of the Great Horde? About White / Blue?

[BAI]

So: there was no duel of heroes, these are inventions of churchmen.

Did not have.
We read the Chronicle of the Battle of Kulikovo, published according to the list of the Novgorod Karamzin Chronicle of the 603th century. (RNB, F. IV, 62). Corrections were made according to the Golitsyn list of the first edition of the Novgorod Fourth Chronicle (RNB, Q. XVII, XNUMX).
(of course in a modern translation).
What do we see?
1.

And, having united with all the Russian princes and with all the forces, he soon came out against them from Moscow in order to protect his fatherland. And he came to Kolomna, gathered his soldiers one hundred thousand and one hundred, in addition to the princes and local governors.

And they began to cross the Oka a week before Semyonov's day, on Sunday. And, having moved across the river, they entered the land of Ryazan.

The prince, the great, approached the Don River two days before the Nativity of the Holy Mother of God.

The prince left Moscow and walked for several days to the Don. What is the Battle of Moscow in Kulishki?
This is the question of Fomenko and his followers.
2.

The great prince approached the Don River two days before the Nativity of the Holy Mother of God. And then a letter came with a blessing from the Monk Hegumen Sergius, from the holy old man; his blessing is written in it - so that he fought with the Tatars: "So that you, sir, go, and God and the Holy Mother of God will help you."

There was no personal blessing from Sergius and the prince did not go to him! The blessing came in remote mode, there were no monk warriors in the application.
3.

And at six o'clock in the afternoon the filthy Ishmaelites appeared in the field - and the field was open and vast. And then the Tatar regiments lined up against the Christians, and the regiments met. And, seeing each other, great forces moved, and the earth hummed, mountains and hills shook from the innumerable multitudes of soldiers. And they drew their weapons - two-edged in their hands. And the eagles flew away, as it is written - "where there are corpses, there will be gathered eagles." At the appointed hour, Russian and Tatar guard regiments first began to arrive. The great prince himself attacked the first in the sentry regiments on the filthy king Calf, called the incarnate devil Mamai. However, soon after that the prince left for the great regiment. And then the great army of Mamaev moved, all the forces of the Tatar. And on our side - the great prince Dmitry Ivanovich with all the Russian princes, having made regiments, went against the rotten Polovtsi with all his army. And, looking up to heaven with prayer and filled with sorrow, he said in the words of the psalm: "Brothers, God is our refuge and strength." And immediately both great forces came together for many hours, and covered the shelves a field of ten versts - such were the many soldiers.

There was no duel between Peresvet and Chelubey! The battle began immediately, without a warm-up.

[icelord]

One more chronologer drew, lie non-walk, lie everything. And the Chinese lie, and the Persians, and the Central Asians, and the Europeans, and the Byzantines, and even the Japanese. And all for our propaganda

[Daniil Konovalenko]

And Mamai, too .. all there lay the Siberian Scythian-Russes, the civil war of the 14th century, brother went to brother.

[Pane Kohanku]

Both? Chulubei is also a hero?

....posthumously.....

[icelord]

Well, of course, I made a plus because it was witty, but if the topic is so for his own people he is a hero, and Peresvet is byaka, and vice versa

[Pane Kohanku]

Well, of course I got a plus because it's witty

Igor, taking as an example the work of Mr. Samsonov, it is possible to offer completely different laws of the universe. For example, here: "Everything that exists is a dumpling!" we are waiting for the next exacerbation, and articles on this topic. Sarcasm, Igor ...

[icelord]

Nicholas ... By the way, someone, I do not remember where, in all seriousness referred to this version, and like it was just recently

[Pane Kohanku]

By the way, someone, I don't remember where, in all seriousness referred to this version, and like it was just recently

yes, sometimes there are such characters that you wonder. And I say, Igor - autumn.. with all the exacerbations ..

[icelord]

You’re there, by the way, just below my correspondence with one enlightened lady, read, here she doesn’t believe in Mongols and that’s all, but I will not read anything, because I’m lying

[Pane Kohanku]

and says nothing to read, because FSE lie

and the authorities hide everything! and the Pechenegs infected us with the liver!

[the Saint]

And it’s not news for a long time that the Holy Noble Prince Alexander Nevsky was actually the “first collaborationist” in Russia: he destroyed the Russian population together with Mongol punishers for non-payment of tribute or attacking tribute collectors. The chronicles speak of Nevsky's punitive campaigns against Novgorod and Suzdal, where the Russians fought with the yoke, and Nevsky fought for the shortcuts to reign from the Mongols. He punished the Russians - including his Novgorodians - for disobeying the conquerors, in a way that the Mongols never dreamed of (he cut their noses and cut off their ears, and cut off their heads and impaled them).
And in the struggle for positions he scribbled denunciations of Russian princes, including his brother.

[ultra]

Quote: el Santo

The chronicles speak of the punitive campaigns of Nevsky to Novgorod and Suzdal, where the Russians fought with the yoke

For your information, the people of Novgorod did not even consider themselves Russian at that time, and in general there are very few historical documents about that time.

[icelord]

And no one then considered themselves Russian if cho. Where do you such enlightened ones come from that you did not learn history at school?

[ultra]

"Dear", when I was in school, it was precisely and was taught about Kievan Rus, the "great" Battle of the Ice and other near-historical nonsense. And the Novgorodians said they were going to Rus when they traveled to the southwest.

[icelord]

From amused , there was then no "Rus" there were principalities, Ryazan, Vladimir, Serpukhov, etc. Sometimes they were friends, sometimes they fought. Precisely ignorant, reading is weak, because now it is easy, there is an Internet. Oh yes, I forgot, you are not a reader, you are a writer. And judging by the avatar, he is also a commie, a fan of the great empire, and the infallible Dzhugashvili

[Trilobite Master]

Minus you from me for the old accordion. Since the 90s, this song has been sung and for twenty years it has become outdated and outdated.
Alexander Yaroslavich, of course, was not the most outstanding figure of the era and was not a "saint", but he was not a traitor-collaborationist either. It was just that the feudal nobleman conscientiously and efficiently fulfilled his vassal obligations in relation to his suzerain, the khan, the ruler of the ulsa Jochi of the Mongol Empire.
The Russians never fought with a yoke - they did not even know a word like that. Nevsky's cruelties were quite in the traditions of that time, in this regard he did not stand out in anything, he did not commit anything special in terms of cruelty. They cut, flogged and impaled both before and after him and, mainly, their own. Well, about denunciations - fiction. Not a single source mentions any denunciations. So there is no need to fantasize or broadcast other people's fantasies, especially such stupid ones.
I'm finishing this thread for today. If you want to object to something - look for me at Ryzhov, I won't look here anymore.

[the Saint]

What a horror) Duc, if you cite primary sources like "The Tale of the Life and the Bravery of the Blessed and Grand Duke Alexander" or the Novgorod First Chronicle of the elder and younger versions, no one will understand anything.
Yes, the Russians never fought with a yoke - they did not even know the words of this, as they did not call themselves Russians, and they did not see collaborators either, and they did not know feudal nobles with vassal obligations towards their overlord either.
At that time there lived smerds, purchases, firemen, slaves, boyars, tiuns, gridni, sneakers, brodniks ... These are the terms that should be used in the description of ancient events.

In 1246, Yaroslav died, and, as usual, a struggle broke out between the brothers for the throne. But now the applicants had an arbiter - the khan, and two senior Yaroslavichs - Alexander and Andrey - went to him. Batu appointed Alexander, the eldest of the two brothers, as the Grand Duke of Kiev and all of Southern Russia, and Andrey as the Grand Duke of Vladimir and Novgorod. With these labels, the princes returned to Russia in 1249. Alexander was unhappy, since the Kiev throne had long lost its actual meaning, and was waiting for an opportunity to take the Vladimir reign from his brother. The opportunity was not slow to introduce itself. Andrei strenuously got in touch with the Galician prince Daniel Romanovich on the subject of a general uprising against the Horde. Alexander no doubt knew about this conspiracy, but not only did not join him, but, on the contrary, decided to go to the Golden Horde to denounce his brother in order to get his volost from the khan.
An unknown chronicle used by the historian V.N. Tatishchev, reports on this the following: “I think the great prince Alexander Yaroslavich went to the Horde to Khan Sartak, Batu's son, and his khan was honored with honor. And Alexander complained about his brother, Grand Duke Andrei, as if he was the solstice of the khan [Baty - Ya.B.], taking the great reign under him [Alexander - Ya.B.], as the oldest, and took his father's castle to him, and did not pay tamga to the khan in full. Khan was angry with Andrey and ordered Nevryui saltan to go to Andrey and bring him before him. " The Horde army under the command of Nevryuy with a sudden invasion upset all of Andrey's plans. He was forced to oppose the Horde with his few forces, was defeated and was forced to flee to the lands of the Livonian Order in the Baltic. The Horde devastated the entire Vladimir-Suzdal land, burned, captured, killed. After that, Alexander, having a khan's label with him, sat on the throne in Vladimir. It was in 1252. (C)

[Fan-fan]

This is true, but another thing is also true, the Tatars also fought on the side of Alexander Nevsky, for example, they fought on the side of the Russians in the famous "Battle on the Ice", where the Tatar cavalry broke the western knights well

[icelord]

And please provide a source about the Tatars during the battle on the ice, neither the Germans nor the Russians wrote this.

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: el Santo

And it is not news for a long time that the Holy Blessed Prince Alexander Nevsky ...

It is wrong to transfer today's worldview to that time. Everything was much more complicated. What you write is about how to judge the first Cro-Magnons for cannibalism.

[Blackmokona]

I can't wait for an article from this author about the civil war between Stalin and Hitler.

[sergo1914]

Quote: BlackMokona

I can't wait for an article from this author about the civil war between Stalin and Hitler.

Well, why provoke?

[the Saint]

Quote: BlackMokona

civil war between Stalin and Hitler.

"You can't harness one cart ..." (c) "blond beasts" and "nomadic hordes of the East."

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: el Santo

"You can't harness one cart ..." (c) "blond beasts" and "nomadic hordes of the East."

Do you doubt the author's "literary talent"? I believe in him, he can.

[ZAV69]

The author threw drugs on a campaign

[Operator]

There were no many thousands of Mongols, representatives of the Mongoloid race in Russia - like "I said".

"Besermens and Armenians, Kyryazy and Cherkasy and Burtases" - are they purely specifically Ruso-Scythians or, more correctly, Scythian-Russes?

[Daniil Konovalenko]

Light-brown-Scythians or more correctly Scythian-Rus?

all is one, all is one ..

[icelord]

Correctly Russoarii, descendants of the Hyperboreans, great citizens of the great Turturia, in

[Trilobite Master]

I read it.
Studying the history of Samsonov's work is like studying Perrault's tales based on the work of Kamil Larin

[Pane Kohanku]

Studying the history of Samsonov's work is like studying Perrault's tales based on the work of Kamil Larin

Michael, in this deadly civil war, are you for the Imperial Legion, or for the Stormcloaks? I never liked the narrow-minded small-town separatism of Dzhigurda-Ulfrik! We are Skyrim children, the battle is like a mother to us!

[AllBiBek]

I envy your willpower.
I had enough for the first five or six paragraphs.
I, of course, read more nonsense on the topic (at the level of Tyunyaev or Chudinov), but it was originally in the format of a freak-fiction.
And here - Ponasenkov's level of Napoleonics.

[Andrey Krasnoyarsky]

The article seemed to start normally, but the author's soul could not bear to do without delirium at all, and away we go ...

“Mongols from Mongolia” and “Mongol-Tatar yoke” are myths created in the Vatican in order to destroy and rewrite genuine Russian history in their interests.

Why on earth was the Vatican rewriting Russian history? Yes, the Vatican wanted to spit on her. In what historical Vatican work is this proven? Carpini's plan is not to suggest, he is not a historian. And the term "Mongol-Tatars" was really invented, not only by the Vatican, but by Russian historians in the 19th century. And not by malicious intent, this is just a generalized name for the Turkic-speaking peoples who constituted the ethnic basis of the Mongolian state. In the Russian chronicles, only Tatars, without any Mongols, in turn, Mongols never called themselves Tatars and do not call themselves. Further:

many European cities are on Slavic Russian foundations

Slavic and Russian are not the same thing. Poles, Czechs, even Bulgarians are Slavs, but not Russians. Further:

Russians are the direct heirs of the ancient northern civilization, the Aryan Scythians and the legendary Hyperboreans.

Where and in what reliable sources is this indicated? Velesov's book not to offer - this wretched fake has long been exposed. Further:

In the "Legend of the Battle of Mama", the gods worshiped by the "filthy" are indicated: Perun, Salavat, Rekliy, Khors, Mohammed.

The author of the Legend of the Mamayev Massacre was well versed in the Christian religion, but his knowledge of Islam and paganism was at the level of the plinth. After the adoption of Christianity by Russia, the pagan gods were declared demons, respectively, the enemy of the Christian faith, as it were, should worship them. Therefore, the author of the Legend lumped both Mohammed and Perun and Khors into one heap.

[UA3QHP]

It seems to me that modern Mongols have the same relation to Chinggis Khan, Batu Khan and Mamai, as modern Lithuanians to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. That is, none.

[AllBiBek]

Why?
Preserved even under Borzhigin, and a bunch of others.
Another thing is that Hoelun - Temujen's mother - was Merkit, and they are Tatars.
And those Tatars have a very distant relation to the present ones.

[UA3QHP]

Quote: AllBiBek

Preserved even under Borzhigin, and a bunch of others.

A very stretched lineage, adjacent to the immaculate conception.

[AllBiBek]

Yes, as if the Jochids never denied that they were not full of Chingiz's blood.
Well these are the Mongols, they still do not bother with such trifles.

[UA3QHP]

Alan-goa is the legendary progenitor of the Nirun Mongols, her youngest son Bodonchar is considered the founder of the Borjigin clan.
"Alan-goa also revealed the secret of the birth of her three youngest sons: according to her, every night a light-blond (or red-haired [5]) person appeared to Alan-goa, the light from which penetrated into her womb."
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD-%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B0

[Andrey Krasnoyarsky]

Much like modern Italians to the Roman Empire

[Smoke]

I do not understand why this Samsonov has not been banned on VO so far ... VO is sliding towards outright Nazism and fascism

[Keyser soze]

I do not understand why this Samsonov is still not banned on VO ...

Noooo! Freedom for Samsonov! Even two more must be found to have fun every day.
Monday - Hyperboreans-Rusichi.
Tuesday - Civilization Code, Russian Septuagint and codes in general ...
Wednesday - Ancient Aryans and the problem of ecology in the pre-Aryan era.
Thursday - visit and day off.
Friday - First World War of Russian Neanderthals and Russian Sapiens. Who killed Denisov's man - white or red?

[icelord]

Because he is the head of the history department at V.O.

[dmmyak40]

The Kalabukhov house is gone!
We urgently need to return the rating of articles. I'm afraid to think what the VO will reach soon.

[dmmyak40]

Rather closer to flat-earthers and other sects.

[maktub]

There was no "Moscow Rus", "Moscow principality" found on the map

[dmmyak40]

An article in the best traditions of Yandex Zen: there is a topic, there is no disclosure.
Another supporter of Russia-Rus. In addition to Rus-Ukraine. YES, THE DREAM OF MIND BIRTHS MONSTERS.

The following points were left in disbelief:
- Already in Kolomna, the primary battle formation was formed: Dmitry Ivanovich and the okolnichy Timofey Velyaminov led the Big Regiment; Vladimir Andreevich - Right Hand regiment; left hand regiment - Gleb Bryansky. How can the battle formation (even the primary one) be quickly formed at the very beginning of the march? As far as the sources say correctly, the foot regiments were the first to leave, and after 2-3 days the cavalry left behind them. What kind of structure can there be if almost all the weapons are in the train?
The formation of troops with a cross has been an ingrained battle formation of Russian squads for a long time.

- Ahead were the Sentinel and the Frontline regiments of the princes Simeon Obolensky and John of Tarusa In connection with what princes Semyon Obolensky and Ivan Tarusky received different names?

- Mamai mobilized all the subordinate princes of the White (Golden) Horde and fielded from 100 to 300 thousand soldiers (there is no exact data). How could Mamai mobilize troops from the White Horde, if before 1378 its khan was the powerful and warlike Urus-khan, and then Tokhtamysh?

- The battle began at about 12 o'clock with a duel between Peresvet and the Horde warrior-batyr Chulubei. Both heroes died [/ i]. Author, whose side are you on? Or didn't you notice when copying?

- [i] Therefore, the fierce wars that went on in the Horde itself, between the Horde and the Russian principalities, were the wars of the Russians against the Russians. It's true. That is, according to the author, the Russians from Maverannahr / Mangyshlak ulus fought against the Russians from Dzungaria, the Volga region and other uluses? And in the raid of Begich or the Arab Shah, only Russians took part against Russians? Cool...

ALREADY WHEN WRITING A COMMENTARY AND REVIEW WITH SOURCES, IT BECAME CLEAR THAT PART OF THE ARTICLE TOTALLY TAKEN FROM WIKIPEDIA ..

[AllBiBek]

Eh ... And how could the Kok-Horde (Blue Horde) temnik put up "all the available regiments of the White (Golden) Horde, headed by Tokhtamysh de jure (and de facto for the most part)?"
It's like Chiang Kai-shek, who mobilized people in northern China in the early 40s.
Or like Kolchak, conducting mobilization in the Crimea and the Baltic states.

[dmmyak40]

I liked about Chiang Kai-shek! Thanks for the fun!

[Trojan_wolf]

What I really liked was this painting "Morning on the Kulikovo Field". A. Bubnova at the beginning of the article. That's what it means to do your job competently.

[Undecim]

Another delirium, moreover, a delirium of the ignorant and equally intended for the ignorant.
Let's take this paragraph as an example.
Studying this period of the history of the Russian state, it is necessary to remember that "Mongols from Mongolia" and "Mongol-Tatar yoke" are myths created in the Vatican in order to destroy and rewrite genuine Russian history in their own interests. In the West, they cannot accept the fact that the Russians have a more ancient history than the Germans, French, British or Italians. That many European cities stand on Slavic-Russian foundations - like Berlin, Vienna, Dresden or Venice. That the Russians are the direct heirs of the ancient northern civilization, the Aryan Scythians and the legendary Hyperboreans.
Okay about the Hyperboreans, northern civilizations and Scythian-Aryans, no one saw them, no one found traces of them, so you can write whatever you want.
But place names are easy to check.
We open the book at random Sachsen. Alle Städtenamen und deren Geschichte (Saxony. All names of cities and their history). The book was written by the most that neither is the Germans.
Seeing Dresden.
Dresden ist ein slawischer, genauer gesagt altsorbischer Name, der im Laufe der Zeit eingedeutscht und dabei umgeformt wurde. Dem Namen liegt eine entnasalierte Form des slawischen Worts * drezga, das auf urslawisch * dr¸ezga "Wald, Dickicht" zurückgeht, zugrunde. Dieses Wort wurde mit einem Suffix -jane erweitert, mit dem sog. Bewohnernamen gebildet werden. Wird haben also von einer Grundform altsorbisch * Drežd'ane bzw. * Drežd'ene auszugehen, so dass der Ortsname "(Siedlung der Leute) am / im Wald" bedeutet.
It turns out, as the Germans write, the toponym Dresden is a Slavic, or rather an ancient Serbian name. And then comes the traditional explanation of how this Slavic name appeared.
What is it that the Vatican missed Dresden and didn't rewrite it ?! Or do the Germans not obey the Vatican?
In short, another kick on the site's reputation from Mr. Samsonov.

[icelord]

The Germans Viktor Nikolaevich really do not obey, they are Protestants. But in essence everything is absolutely correct. By the way, the most terrible Jewish Masons, the Americans, too, and indeed the British too, in general, the Spaniards and Italians rewrote everything, and the Poles who sympathize with them

[Undecim]

It is not so simple with Italians, surprisingly, because teoria veneta is quite popular with the Venetian separatists, regionalismo veneto. And the Vatican cannot influence them in any way.

[icelord]

Well, you are probably right, to be honest, I didn’t go into Italian politics, but in general, those very Poles who joined them, oh yes, probably also Latin American scribes hurried in advance, there are also Catholics))). If you will laugh, I am also a Catholic, that's probably why I run into new trends in history, I'm afraid of exposure

[Undecim]

To be honest, I didn't understand about the Poles. Do the Poles deny that they belong to the Slavs?

[icelord]

No, of course, I'm a Pole and I don't deny it, we're just Catholics. I added a comment there, you probably have not seen

[Undecim]

By the way, you were wrong with the Spaniards too. True, Spanish Slavic studies are relatively young - somewhere in the middle of the last century, but in many Spanish universities, starting with Madrid, there are departments of Slavic philology. where not just Russian is taught, but also courses such as "Russian Civilization", "Russian Literature". Moreover, the lectures on these courses are not read by Samsonovs or cardinals from the Vatican.
For example, at the University of Granada, lectures on the above courses were given by Nikita Ilyich Tolstoy, Adam Evgenievich Suprun, Nina Davidovna Arutyunova. The list goes on. Simply ignorant scribblers like Samsonov and their equally ignorant fans like Bar have no idea about such processes.

[the Saint]

“Slavs and Poles have a lot in common. Poles with Slavs - nothing. They are uncomfortable in their Slavism, uncomfortable to realize that they are from the same family as the Ukrainians and Russians. The fact that we turned out to be Slavs is an accident, ”states the Polish writer Mariusz Schigel.

[icelord]

And what do you mean by that? Just think, a writer, the Russians will say something else, of course, not a single Pole wants to be part of Russia, and so there are no problems

[the Saint]

Quote: Icelord

And what do you mean by that?

Only that Russia is dragging its hated Poles into the Slavs with all its might.
And those, in turn, resist with all their might and deny their Slavism.

[icelord]

But you don't need to drag anyone anywhere, and everything will be fine. You know, let's do it this way, Poland separately, Russia separately. And so we are Slavs of course

[the Saint]

Perhaps the Poles' rejection of their possible Slavism is as follows?

Are the words Slavs (Slavs) and Slaves (slaves) related?
This version is very popular in the West. That the Slavs were so often enslaved that in European languages ​​(not only in English) the very word "slave" goes back to the concept of "Slav". In general, an equal sign is practically put between the Slavs and the slaves.

[icelord]

Don't you read me, or what? I am writing, no one denies, with the exception of especially enlightened individuals. What do you want to prove I don’t understand

[the Saint]

In general, yes. These words about the affairs of bygone days are not worth a damn.

[Liam]

Quote: Undecim

theory veneta

This is actually the fun of three Slovenes from the late 80s.
Jožko Šavli, Matej Bor, Ivan Tomažič, Veneti: naši davni predniki, Lubiana, Dunaj, Maribor, 1989.
Three Slovenian economists, poet and priest got together and came up with the glorious Slovenian past

[Undecim]

And what are the Slovenes worse than Samsonov?

[Liam]

Nothing, you just referred them to Italians

[Undecim]

I did not class them as Italians. I wrote that their "story" is popular with some Italians.

[Liam]

There are such figures in Veneto. Even Liga Veneta Repubblica created its own party. Regularly for the last 30 years since its foundation, they gain 1-2% at regional elections in Veneto itself. Popular shorter

[icelord]

Are you clever again, have you read Wikipedia? Catch Viktor Nikolaevich on inaccuracies, well, good luck, moralist

[Liam]

Don't be fawning. Kamrad Undechim hardly needs your services

[icelord]

Yes, I’m not sycophant, you’re just very funny, you’ve picked up the tops, and you’re clever, I’m at least a particularly cold specialist in weapons, but I’m just talking and I don’t like commies and chronoloists, but you’re building something out of yourself and climb where You were not asked with your morality, antediluvian, for years you are fast, your question to Sergey, by the way, but you yourself will answer? Something about the question of work and education was modestly silent, since, who are you?

[ratveg]

There are 24 million 170 thousand Catholic parishioners in Germany

[icelord]

This is true, now there are as many of them as Protestants, but it was only in 1919 that the church was separated from the state and freedom of religion was declared, and even Fomenko lacks the audacity to declare that the history of Turturia was rewritten in the 20th century

[Maks1995]

What the ... horror? New chronology? So those are shifting the battle to the sidelines of Moscow.

"100 to 300 thousand soldiers" and "50-60 thousand soldiers (according to other sources, up to 150 thousand people)"
Where did Mamai get so many Russians? And the horsemen? What did they eat then?

And how the Russian "heavily armed infantry" could drive the enemy's faster cavalry? Which, as it were, could not get around, run away, as the "ravines" interfered?

After 500 years, a much richer and more populated Republic of Ingushetia at Borodino deployed only 120 thousand troops, mainly infantry ... since cavalry is fast, but also expensive, and eats dofig ...

By the way, Klim Zhukov claimed that the Kulikovo field had already been found, and it was non-classical ... and there were remnants of weapons there ...

[parusnik]

Hmm ... Why be so angry over science ... "A cruel age, cruel hearts. And callousness gnaws at souls to the end. Like a black raven, envy bites us, and hatred sings with joy that there is no end to human wars" (c).

[alekc75]

there was no Genoese infantry !!!! already proven

[icelord]

Well, in their ledgers, this is not noted, but they are very detailed

[slavaseven]

From 100 to 300 thousand ...
Classical - write more than they, you bastard, feel sorry for.
Che is a big scatter. Even Rosstat cannot afford this

[Normal ok]

from about half of the article it was clear that the author is the "great" science fiction writer Samsonov))

[Trojan_wolf]

It's sad how it becomes from such reading.

[Force multiplier]

myths created in the Vatican in order to destroy and rewrite authentic Russian history in their own interests

It is absolutely true that the Vatican created myths in order to destroy and rewrite genuine Russian history in its own interests. And the most important myth created in the Vatican is voiced in the article. All these Rus-Polovtsians, Rus-Glades and Rus-Alans, this is a modification of the idea of ​​the book "Slavic kingdom" by Benedictine Mavro Orbini, only with the replacement of the term "Slavs" by Rus. A typical excerpt from Orbini's book, the Vatican's myth-making as it is:
Historiographers remembered about the Slavs, but even that reminder was made because of the warriors of the Slavic people who were repaired by the other peoples, rather than the people who were vilified by what kindness, their enemies, which the people angered with their weapons, not all peoples in the Universe; ravaged Persis; possessed Asia, and Africa, fought with the Egyptians, and with the great Alexander; conquered Greece, Macedonia, the Illyric land; took possession of Moravia, the land of Slaska, Czech, Polish, and the shores of the Baltic Sea, went to Italy, where for a long time he fought against the Romans. Sometimes he was defeated, sometimes he raged in battles, he took revenge with the great death of the Romans; sometimes he was equal in battle. In the end, having conquered the Roman empire, he took possession of many of their provinces, ruined Rome with tributaries of the Caesarea of ​​Rome, which he did not repair to other people in the whole world. He owned Franzia, England, and established the empire in Ishpania; He took possession of the best provinces in Europe: and from this always glorious people in the past times, there were powerful peoples; that is, the Slavs, Vandals, Burgontions, Goughs, Ostrogofs, Rus or Rasi, Visigoths, Gepids, Getyalans, Uverls, or Grules: Avars, Skirrs, Girras, Melandens, Bashtarns, Peuks, Daki, Swedes, Normans, Fenns, or Finns, Ukrainians , or Unkras, Marcomannas, Quads, Tuxedos; Alleri were near the Veneds, or Genets, who settled on the shores of the Baltic Sea, and divided into many beginnings; that is, the Pomeranians, Uvils, Rugians, Uvarnavs, Obotrit, Polabs, Uvagirs, Lingons, Tolents, Redats, or Riadouts, Tsirtsipans, Kizins: Erula, or Elueldy, Levbuzy, Uvilin, Storedan, and Britzany, with many others who were all Slavyanskoy people

[icelord]

And what next with this myth, how to implement it in practice, because I wrote that no one will listen to the Vatican, what about those who are not Catholics? How to rewrite them? So all this is nonsense, invented by those who are haunted by the complexes, and the ignorant stupid believe

[7,62x54]

The author has diarrhea of ​​the brain regularly.

[Iskazi]

naturally, some Russian-speaking people fought with other Russian-speaking ..., everything was not so simple, but the civil war ..., Tatars in the service of Russian princes, Russian princes under the roof of the Tatars ..., and it is not known who for whom ... , The Rurikids are related to the Tatars, the Tatars are related to the Rurikovichs .... rootless cosmopolitanism ..., byada ...

[Nubia2]

What an enchanting nonsense the author is carrying.

[unknown]

Unfortunately, historical science is not science.
This is fiction. Section of unscientific fiction.
All "ancient, medieval and modern history" fits perfectly into the so-called "nineteenth century".

[Andrey Krasnoyarsky]

It's just that you have never read any scientific works on history proper, but are supplemented by amateur science fiction writers from history. They really have nothing to do with science.

[voyaka uh]

Of course, Russians with Russians ...
And then what happened? Who are they Germans? They are also Aryans, like the Slavs. That means Russians.
In 1941, it means that the western Russians attacked the eastern Russians. But the Eastern Russians defeated them.
I'm not even talking about the Russian-Polish wars. Both are 100% arias.
We look further. Half of the US population is of German descent. And the Germans, as we remember, are Russians. That is, the Cold War is a confrontation between the Atlantic Russians and the Continental Russians. NATO is a Western Russian alliance.
---
Indians are also Aryans, which means they are Russians.
The Egyptians, of course, built the pyramids.
I haven't checked the Chinese yet, but if you scratch the Chinese, you'll find a Russian.
---
Samsonov and I are the apostles of modern history.
Please love and respect!
Not that ...

[Falcon5555]

Quote: voyaka uh

Please love and respect!

Modestly they did not mention the Jews ... Here, you are coming to America, and who are you there? .. Somewhere it was met that your Netanyahu allegedly has a haplogroup R1a. If this is so, then he is also an Aryan, that is, Russian. Therefore, close your Israel and join the ancestral home.
(Joke.)

[voyaka uh]

Not modesty, but conspiracy. Shhh
But you split me, like the Russian German Müller Bronevoy split the Russian Shtirlitsa Isaev Tikhonov ...

[Falcon5555]

And I thought you would answer something like "no, you'd better come to us" ...

[nonsense]

I thought you'd say that on the Kulikovo field the Tatars fought with the Tatars ... The long list of Tatar princes who died in the battle on the side of Moscow seems to be a hint ...

[Per se.]

An article on the topic of history, in which there are many versions and opinions, truths and conjectures, Alexander probably has the right to his vision. Nevertheless, did the "Russians with the Russians" fight, in which the emphasis is already made in the title of the article, and not, for example, the Lithuanians with the Lithuanians? So, in the Russian army there were the Lithuanian regiments of Andrey and Dmitry Olgerdovich, while the Lithuanian prince Yagailo was for Mamai.

In general, it is a thankless task to look for "roots" in nationalities in such a way, in the end it may turn out that we are all from Adam and Eve, and even if, according to Darwin, from monkeys, so also, from monkeys, without variants of other animals ...

If we are talking about historical facts, first of all we must accept whether Genghis Khan was or not, there was his campaign against Russia or not. Was Batu or not? Further, was Russia subordinated or not?

Otherwise, like Vysotsky.

Only Russian in the family,
My great-grandfather - Samarin, -
If anyone came to me,
So is Tatar. ”

[Tektor]

I can give you a simple idea. What is called the "Tatar-Mongol yoke" really turned into a struggle between the new religion, Orthodoxy, and the old religion (Old Believers) based on the Santiya Vedas of Perun (the sacred knowledge of Perun). Representatives of one faith or another can be easily distinguished by their names, since at baptism, the Orthodox were given a new name. The names are today. Those. Alexander instead, some nicknames, which were common among the common people. Mamai, for example. There was a real opposition between Orthodox Russia and Great Tartar, Great Mogul. And in this confrontation, pestilences, such as anthrax, pestilence (smallpox), plague and others, played a serious role. Diseases wiped out Tartaria more than the Russian plain.

[Tektor]

The real nicknames-nicknames of the pre-mogul period were Gluzd, Ghoul, Vyshata, Hare, Lame, Anfima, etc.

[nonsense]

I will tell you a "terrible secret" - such nicknames-nicknames figured in Russia until the second half of the 19th century - until the Russian peasants, after the abolition of serfdom, did not need their names and surnames ... And this phenomenon has nothing to do with religion ...

[Tektor]

Ghoul is the nickname of the prince, by the way ... The given nicknames are contained in the birch bark letters of the pre-mogul period.

[nonsense]

seemingly good rules - people adored him! And he called it so affectionately - "our ghoul" ...

[andrew42]

I support the version of religious delimitation and confrontation as the most likely basis for the "Mongol-Tatar yoke". In all the scanty and scanty "sources" on which the adherents of the so-called OI are so fond of referring, there is always an emphasis on the fact that the enemies are first of all "infidels", the rest is in the appendage. A similar intensity of rejection is known in a later period - Nikonians vs Old Believers. And the sources about the "yoke" and "impious Mamai" are all monastic ones. Christian. Maybe there are some sources from the hands of a secular person of those times? - No, it is not, and apparently will not. There are no genetic traces of the conquest by the "Mongoloids". There are NO historical examples of the successful conquest of forest areas by the steppe people in WINTER (!), Except for the "genius Batu" - neither before nor after none. Only the "Mongols of Batu" are the only and inimitable warriors in the winter forests, feeding the "heavenly manna" darkness of horses (fighting, pack and clockwork), and rapidly moving thousands of kilometers along "frozen rivers". And since the "yoke of the Mongoloids" is more than doubtful, then the interpretation of the Kulikovo battle is subject to doubt. However, the "academicians" from the OI in the Mongolian question have at least a stake on their heads - in any case, they argue with cross-references to the works of their like-minded people in the style of "the cuckoo praises the rooster, for the fact that he praises the cuckoo." I agree that in the overwhelming majority of cases, alternatives put out frank delirium against OI-shniki, which the latter are incredibly happy about - the thug tramples in the kindergarten sandbox, increasing self-esteem. But in the matter of the "Mongol yoke", the OI activists have a hard time, here common sense and the very life experience of human existence, including the modern one, hits the head with a club. Perhaps, in the era of studying history in the comfortable cabins of starships, the OI adepts will feel better. In the meantime, among contemporaries there are enough of those who know the North Russian nature, fed and rode horses, and did not see the crowd of Mongoloid heirs either in Rostov or Samara.

[icelord]

Yeah, now, what about Russoarii it was all ... What does the Russian chronicles have to do with it, even if you don’t believe in them, the whole world wrote about the Mongol invasion then, absolutely the whole, from Africa to Byzantium and Germany

[andrew42]

There is no trust in Western European sources at all. In these gentlemen's engravings, Muscovites roast the townspeople on spits - nothing has changed in 800 years. Byzantine sources are somehow stingy about the "Mongols", more puzzled by the Seljuks, and then by the Ottomans. In Palestine, Baldwin wanted to conclude a military alliance with these "Mongols" - the poor fellow was excommunicated from the church. The attitude of the West towards the "Mongols" is such that, taking full advantage of the Turks, they stubbornly, pathologically and passionately hate the "Mongols". Therefore, there is no trust in the "European" sources. Charlie Hebdo 13-15 centuries.

[icelord]

Well, sho, FSE, FSE lie. For God's sake, your business

[andrew42]

I didn’t say that “FSE is lying”. I said that "there is no trust," and the first main reason is the pathological "Tatarophobic" accent of the Western European historical tradition. And the question is not even what they lie and how much, but the question - why they lie and for what purpose.

[nonsense]

You are not true - "the whole world" did not write anything about the Mongol invasion in those days. Because the eastern chronicles of that time HAVE NOT PRESERVED (there are only late 16-17 centuries compilations, "stretched over the globe" of the European history of the 13th century. The Byzantine chronicles have not survived for the most part. And those that survived are the property of exclusively European museums there the fake has always been put on stream.) The same story with the European annals - it is problematic to find in them even a mention of the Mongols in the 13th century. Crusadesoccurring At the same time with the conquests of the Mongols of Europe. - And these events in no way intersect in the European chronicles! The crusaders with the "Mongols" simply do not see each other at close range! Russian chronicles of that period simply do not exist - there are only later (15-17 century) "Russian chronicles" from the priests of various groups ...
So what kind of "whole world" wrote about it?

[icelord]

and who told you such nonsense, I will share not only you, but also his ignorant, stupid, and stubborn, I will name. Well, I'll have a little fun, you have already made me very happy. While there are many like you, it is much easier to live like me. That is why I have a plant and three factories, and you are a janitor

[nonsense]

You don’t say who told you that nonsense that you consider to be the ultimate truth - so why am I going to throw pearls here? You just don't perceive the logic written ...
PS: Yes, you're just a sexy maniac - you have a whole plant and three factories ... don't pick up something venereal ...

[icelord]

You and I did not drink at brotherhood and did not graze the pigs together, no need to poke me. And what I wrote you can read in absolutely any historical work on the topic. You will not read the opposite anywhere, well, except for the swindlers of Thomas, the nose, and those who have joined them, like Mr. Samsonov. But they are not historians at all. But I do not convince you, it is useless, you are not just an ignoramus, but an ignorant stubborn, who does not want to know anything, because this is your bright dream of the Russoarii ancestors of everything and everyone, and the great Turturia from which the whole world trembled, ruins. And praise the Lord. I already wrote that the more people like you, the better the smart people. Arrividerci

[nonsense]

and what did you write? - Besides the fact that we are all half-witted here and you Dartanyan, I didn’t see anything ... Is that really what is written in your "absolutely any historical works"? - Tady is understandable ... I understand with you ...
PS: and what kind of Russoarians are they? I don't know anything about them, unlike you ...

[Deniso]

It is with such a story that they are now hammering their heads. In Ukraine, proto-shelters of the seas are being dug, one Kazakh argued to me that the Kazakhs founded Moscow, that they were holding back the western expansion to Russia, and they stopped Hitler. Each nationality of the former USSR comes up with a great story in which
It was his nationality that was the most ancient, advanced, who saved everyone, and only the occupation of the USSR prevented them from becoming an advanced superpower in the world

[Azimuth]

Quote: apro

It is strange how the author put it ... and that under early feudalism there were already nations? There were Tver and Ryazan and in fact treated each other quite in the spirit of their time. They cut like any others who were not from their street.

I agree, especially in our case, most of the princes of Rurikovich, and they were not Rusich and Slavs, and most of the territories on which they reigned was inhabited by Finno-Ugric and Turkic tribes.
The unification of these lands became Russia, created by Peter the Great, in which only the southern regions were the direct descendants of the Russians. Catherine completed the affairs of Peter, annexing to Russia and the territory with the descendants of the Russians.
Hence, for example, the difference in our languages ​​is Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian. Among the southern Russians, the language practically did not experience transformations due to the lack of distribution, plus it was under the influence of the Western Slavs, while in our country, the language of the Russians, uniting dozens of multilingual tribes, was transformed, acquiring many shades, undergoing changes.
As a result, both the nation and the language were the result of tremendous assimilation and mixing, in which is the beauty and strength of Russian culture, its flexibility, attractiveness and universality for other peoples, therefore Russia was able to expand as an Empire not at the expense of wars with the local population and their enslavement, but at the expense of essentially liberating local peoples and tribes from the external yoke, fighting with the Varangians in this or that land.

[Falcon5555]

It seems that the author described the details in detail (but I am not an expert to assess how much it corresponds to modern historical science), and then went into political science in its worst sense - they say "there were no Mongols," "Vatican inventions," "Russians against Russians," " Mongoloid traces were not left ", the Scythians still dug up, etc. In my opinion, these are inventions originating from the famous writer Alexander Bushkov. His novels about piranha are interesting weekend reading, but he was also noted for a book on the "history" of ancient Russia. It is now a popular activity to write about the Mongol yoke and the origin of Russia. It is especially easy for those who do not understand anything about it.

[Diviz]

1. Baptism of Kievan Rus. Murder of Light Glory.
2. Baptism of Moscow Russia. Substitution of Peter 1.
And so everyone has their own mentality.
Of course, I wonder what the third stage will be, but the dawn of svarog has already begun.

[Petrik66]

I got to the Genoese infantry and 150 Russian knights and decided not to continue.

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

Mamaevo massacre: did the Russians fight the Russians?

Wasn't "blood tribute"? Here lies the psychological aspect - from what angle to look at the Golden Horde. Everyone also evaluates the USSR in his own way, some say that the USSR is a power and a wonderful country, others call the country an occupier, and in the West, and in the USA, they say terribly and pour all kinds of dirt. So, what will we write down for our schoolchildren that the USSR is terrible and good, that Russia got rid of the yoke of the USSR? If you weigh what Karamzin's supporters and alternative people say, the Russian principalities were part of the Golden Horde system.

[andrew42]

Moreover, the degree of intensity of wars on the lands of Russia with the arrival of the "Mongols" did not exactly increase. Before the "Mongols" there were constant wars between the princes, the grandiose capture / robbery of Kiev in 1153 (if memory serves), the Lipitsk massacre, and much more "light-big". Under the "terrible yoke", it was not some significant city that made its way to the role of the capital city, but a seedy fortress on the Moscow River. Such is the fantastic start-up. And where did the Horde "Frazibulus's cane" look for several generations of Moscow princes from Daniel to Dmitry Donskoy?