Military Review

Timur and Bayazid I. Great generals who did not divide the world

224

On July 20, 1402, one of the most important battles in the world took place near Ankara. stories, which entailed unprecedented consequences. Timur's army defeated the troops of the Ottoman Sultan Bayazid, who was also taken prisoner. The war between the two Islamic superpowers, which could last for several months, and maybe even years, was ended on that day with one spectacular blow. The corps of the Ottoman Janissaries, who inspired everyone with their fanaticism and military exploits, was almost completely destroyed - and those who will then bear this name will never be compared with these Janissaries. The Ottoman state fell apart. And for eleven years, until 1413, a fierce internecine war between the sons of Bayazid continued, the winner in which was the youngest of them - Mehmed elebi. Young Europe, gaining strength, breathed a sigh of relief, having received a respite, and the whole 50 years of its existence were presented to Byzantium, dying of old age.


But why did this war suddenly begin between the sovereigns, each of whom officially proclaimed himself the defender of Islam and all the faithful? In a short series of articles, we will try to answer this question. We will also talk about the background of this confrontation, talk about the great battle at Nikopol (1396) and finally about the battle at Ankara, which took place in July 1402.

First, we will get to know a little about the heroes of the great confrontation.

Tamerlane and Bayezid were very different people and they came to power in different ways.

Iron Timur


Timur and Bayazid I. Great generals who did not divide the world
Portrait of Timur. XNUMXth century miniature

Born in 1336, Timur was a Turkic barlas, the son of a petty bek. Nothing pointed to the bright future that awaited him. Having started his career as a robber-bek, Timur "made himself", step by step creating a state that had no equal then in wealth and military power in the whole world. A descendant of nomads, who led the country ruled by the Chingizids, he turned it into a kind of reincarnation of the Khorezmshah state and actively fought against other fragments of the great empire of Genghis Khan, inflicting terrible defeats on them.

All wars of Tamerlane can be divided into conquest, defensive (there were some), predatory and preventive.


Timur's campaigns, maps

An example of defensive wars can be the military campaigns against Tokhtamysh - the very one who became a khan thanks to Timur's help and who burned Moscow in 1382.


Siege of Moscow by Tokhtamysh. Miniature of the Observational Codex. XVI century


Timur's struggle with Tokhtamysh. Miniature of the Observational Codex. XVI century

The retaliatory blows inflicted by Timur were so strong that the Golden Horde became depopulated and ceased to be a great state.


Timur defeats Tokhtamysh and the Golden Horde, miniature

It was then that the army of Tamerlane, pursuing one of the detachments of the steppe inhabitants, appeared on the border of Russia and captured Yelets. After making sure that the Russian vassals of Tokhtamysh were not going to fight for him, Timur accepted gifts from them and left - he then had much more important things to do and a trip to the relatively poor Russian lands was not part of his plans. Sheref ad-Din and Nizam ad-Din report on the ambassadors of the Moscow prince in their writings. It is alleged that they presented Tamerlane

"ore gold and pure silver, eclipsing the moonlight, and canvas, and Antiochian homespun fabrics ... shiny beavers, a myriad of black sables, ermines ... lynx fur ... shiny squirrels and ruby-red foxes, as well as and stallions who have not yet seen horseshoes. "

An example of a predatory war is the campaign in India.

Timur's wars of conquest were limited only to the territory that he considered necessary to unite into a single state - Maveranakhr, Khorezm, Khorasan.


Quite often, one has to see maps on which all territories that the feet of his warriors have ever stepped on, even Delhi, are included in the composition of Tamerlane's state. This map, for example, can be seen in the Amir Timur Museum in Samarkand:


It must be said that the compilers of this map were still modest: some include the lands of the Golden Horde, which he had defeated, into the empire of Timur. This is not true: outside the above-mentioned regions (Khorezm, Maverannahr, Khorasan) lay lands that Timur did not consider his own and to which his laws did not apply. This map looks more reliable - here the lighter color marks the areas that were hit by Timur, but were not included in his power:


However, its compiler got carried away a little, having included Armenia, Georgia and part of Iraq with Baghdad in the state of Tamerlane. But Timur was a realist and therefore did not try to unite in one state culturally and mentally alien Muslims of Central Asia, Hindus, Georgians, Armenians and other peoples.

Having conquered the regions of interest to him and uniting them into one whole, Timur began to restore order here. The lands of his power were to become a territory of peace and prosperity, and all neighboring countries - "territory of war", where no laws were in force. It was there that cities were burned and pyramids of heads were built.

The ruler Timur turned out to be very extraordinary, and his methods of government are very surprising. The fact is that Timur began to build in his lands something very similar to a welfare state: the spoils obtained during the campaigns were so great that Timur could afford "a little socialism."

In Timur's state, cash offices were created to help the poor, organized points for the distribution of free food to all those in need, people incapable of self-service were placed in almshouses. Huge funds were spent on the improvement and decoration of cities. After the final defeat of Tokhtamysh, taxes were canceled for three years. It was strictly forbidden to use any form of physical violence against ordinary citizens of Timur's state. On the other hand, they regularly beat the governors of provinces and cities who did not fulfill their duties and careless officials, making no exceptions even for the closest relatives of the all-powerful ruler. Tamerlane's grandsons Pir-Muhammad and Iskender, who ruled in Fars and Fergana, respectively, were deprived of their posts and beaten with sticks, the son of Miran Shah, the governor in the former ulus Hulagu, was imprisoned.

"He (Timur) was at the same time the scourge of his enemies, the idol of his soldiers and the father of his peoples,"
- asserted a contemporary of the conqueror, the historian Sheref ad-Din.

Timur himself said:
"A good king never has enough time to reign, and we are forced to work for the benefit of the subjects whom the Almighty has entrusted to us as a sacred pledge. This will always be my main occupation; for I do not want the poor to pull me for the hem of the garment, asking for vengeance against me. "

Dying, he said:

"God showed me mercy, giving me the opportunity to establish such good laws that now in all the states of Iran and Turan, no one dares to do anything wrong to his neighbor, the nobles do not dare to oppress the poor, all this gives me hope that God will forgive me my sins , although there are many of them; I have the consolation that during my reign I did not allow the strong to offend the weak. "

Finally, there were preventive wars, in which Timur tried to defeat potential rivals of his state in order to protect his successors from war with them, none of whom, as he saw, had the talent of a great commander. Well, and how to rob the vanquished was also, of course, useful. The war with China (which Timur also considered as expiatory for the blood of Muslims shed in previous campaigns), which did not take place due to the death of the conqueror in February 1405, was supposed to be a preventive war. And the defeat of the young and aggressive Ottoman state, which reached the borders of Timur's state, can be considered a preventive war. A fairly detailed story about the personality of Tamerlane, his army and state can be found in the articles Iron Timur. Part of 1. and Iron Timur. Part of 2... We will now talk about his enemy in the great battle of Ankara - the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid I.

Bayazid Lightning



Bayazid was significantly younger than Timur, by 21 years. He was born around 1357 and was the youngest son of Sultan Murad I and the Greek woman Gulchichek Khatun.


Mourad khan i

Married to the daughter of the German emir Suleiman, Bayezid became the ruler of Kutahya: at that time this city in the province of the same name was the center of the Anatolian possessions of the Ottomans.


Kutahya on the map of modern Turkey

The main duty of Shahzade Bayazid was to guard the eastern borders of the Ottoman state.

The proclamation of Bayezid by the sultan


On June 15, 1389, Bayezid took part in the famous battle on the Kosovo field.


Battle of Kosovo on modern Serbian icon

In this battle, the Serbian prince Lazar and the Ottoman Sultan Murad I, who in the Ottoman tradition bears the nickname Devoted to God, died.


Murder of Murad I. Engraving from the German edition of Paul Rico's History, 1694

Traditionally, it is believed that Murad died at the hands of Milos Obilich (Kobilich), whose existence, however, is being questioned.


Milos Obilic on the fresco of a Serbian monastery, Athos

Turkish sources speak of the death of the Sultan at the very end of the battle or even after the battle. The most reliable seems to be the message about a nameless bloodied Serb, who suddenly rose from a pile of dead bodies, past which the victorious sultan was passing, and dealt him a fatal blow.

Serbian sources insist that Murad was killed by a false defector, but it is hard to believe that the Ottomans were so frivolous and careless that they did not search from head to toe some suspicious deserter, eager to communicate closely with the Sultan.

Moreover, the very name of the hero appears only in the sources of the 1413th century. A number of studies believe that two images have merged in the popular consciousness: an unnamed Serb who killed Murad I and a certain Milos, who killed his grandson (and son of Bayazid I) Musa elebi in XNUMX, fighting in the internecine war of claimants to the throne on the side of another grandson - Mehmed, the future sultan.

One way or another, the death of Murad I did not have any effect on the course of the battle, and Bayazid was proclaimed sultan after the victory. Stefan Vulkovich, the son of the deceased Serbian prince Lazar, was forced to recognize himself as a vassal of the Ottomans and to marry Bayazid his sister (who, it is said, became the beloved wife of the Sultan). Stefan also pledged to provide Bayezid with Serbian troops at his first request. The Serbs will play a huge role in the victory of the Ottoman army over the army of the crusaders at Nikopol (1396) and will surprise Tamerlane with their valor and fortitude in the battle of Ankara (1402).

However, Bayezid had an older brother, Yakub. Fearing his claim to the throne, Bayazid sent his executioners to the unsuspecting Yakub, who strangled him with a bowstring. Since then, the killing of his brothers by the new sultan has become a tradition of the Ottoman Empire. The subjects and the courtiers were quite calm about this: after all, in this way a civil war between the applicants was prevented, the victims of which could become tens of thousands of people.

Yildirim (Lightning)


In Turkey, Bayazid is also known under a different name - Yildirim (Lightning), which in Russian sources became the nickname Lightning. Most often this name is explained by the speed and decisiveness of the actions of this sultan: they say, he was impetuous in campaigns and appeared where he was not expected. Some believe that Bayazid received his middle name in the Kosovo field - for decisive and administrative actions after the death of his father. Others argue that he deserved it after the Battle of Nikopol in 1396, when the army of the crusaders, consisting of the army of the King of Hungary Sigismund of Luxembourg and troops of knights from many European countries, was defeated.

Some associate the appearance of the second name with the battle of Konya in 1386, where Shahzade Bayazid fought against the Karamanids (the dynasty of the most powerful Anatolian beylik, the main rivals of the Ottomans in Asia Minor).

But there are supporters of the version that Bayazid was nicknamed Lightning for the order to kill his brother: that is, this is an analogue of the nickname of the Russian Tsar Ivan IV - the Terrible.

The Ottoman historian of the XVII century Bostanzade Yahya Efendi writes about the same, arguing in the book "Tarikh-i Saf" that the Sultan Yildirim was nicknamed for his angry and arrogant disposition.

Sultan Bayezid I


Meanwhile, having learned about the death of Murad, the Anatolian regions (beyliks) that he recently annexed revolted. But Bayezid immediately showed that the Ottoman forces did not weaken with his accession, and during the winter campaign of 1389-1390. not only led the rebellious regions to obedience, but also captured new ones, reaching the coast of the Aegean and Mediterranean seas. It was after this that Ottoman warships first went to sea, which attacked the shores of Attica and the island of Chios.

In 1390, Konya was captured, then the important port of Sinop on the Black Sea. The Ottoman state was turning into a major maritime power before our very eyes.

At the same time, the Ottomans attacked their neighbors in the Balkan Peninsula, seriously disturbing the Kingdom of Hungary and Bulgaria, which King Sigismund considered his sphere of influence and considered as a buffer zone between his state and the Ottomans. The Wallachian rulers, under pressure from the Hungarians, for some time became allies of the Turks.

Finally, in 1393, the Hungarians entered Bulgaria and captured the Nikopol fortress. However, the large Ottoman army forced them to retreat, while the Turks occupied the Bulgarian capital Tarnovo. In 1395, the king of Bulgaria, John Shishman, was executed, part of the country became an Ottoman province, but the remnants of the independence of the region around Vidina still preserved.

The emperor of Byzantium, which was losing its last strength, John V Palaeologus, trying to avoid the invasion, sent Bayazid to the court as a hostage of his son Manuel. But after the death of his father, the prince managed to escape. He ascended the throne as Manuel II.


Manuel II Palaeologus

The new emperor could only observe how in 1393 the Ottomans began to build the Anadoluhisar fortress on the Asian coast of the Bosphorus. Constantinople now divided the European (Balkan) and Asian (Anatolian) possessions of Bayezid, and during the 13 years of his reign, this sultan besieged him 4 times, but never managed to capture it.

This time, the Turkish army stood at the walls of Constantinople for 7 months until Manuel agreed to an increase in tribute, the creation of an Islamic court in the city over the Muslims living in it and the construction of two mosques.

In 1394 Bayezid's army went to Wallachia and Thessaly, attacked Morea. In the same year, a significant part of Bosnia was captured, but the Albanians still fiercely resisted.

A terrible threat looming over Europe led to the fact that in 1394 Pope Boniface IX called for a crusade against the Ottomans. The Pope's decision was probably greatly facilitated by Bayezid's letter to the Hungarian king Sigismund, in which he promised to capture Rome and feed his horse with oats on the altar of St. Peter's Cathedral. This decision was supported by the then antipope Clement VII of Avignon. In addition, in 1389, peace was concluded between France and England, and free soldiers appeared in these countries, ready to fight in the Balkans.

In the following articles we will talk about the Battle of Nikopol Bayazid with the crusaders, try to find out the reasons for his war with Timur, talk about the battle of Ankara and the fate of the defeated Sultan.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Iron Timur. Part of 1
Iron Timur. Part of 2
224 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Korsar4
    Korsar4 27 October 2020 06: 44 New
    +6
    The Vladimir Icon of the Mother of God was transferred to Moscow. Tamerlane stopped.
    Apparently, only Tokhtamysh wanted to teach a lesson.

    But both the Sretensky monastery and Sretenka are very good.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 October 2020 07: 22 New
      +7
      Hello, Sergey!
      The history is woven from inclusions of legends and myths, as without it !!!
      Regards, Vlad!
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 27 October 2020 07: 34 New
        +8
        And the most interesting thing is when the legends come true. And they begin to live an independent life.

        Greetings, Vladislav!
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 October 2020 08: 31 New
          +8
          Quote: Korsar4
          And the most interesting thing is when the legends come true. And they begin to live an independent life.


          We perceive events in images, so any legend or myth is a bright smear of a mixture of truth and fiction, but it attracts and makes us look for an answer, even if without a question !!!
          1. Lexus
            Lexus 27 October 2020 12: 55 New
            +7
            Vladislav, welcome! hi
            For reasons of varying degrees of naturalness, there are no eyewitnesses left. The chroniclers, in fact, one way or another being representatives or admirers of one of the parties, of course, cannot be an exhaustive source of information. The only ones who can add any clarity are archaeologists. The main thing is not to leave the boundaries of common sense in historical research. Huge THANKS to Valery for another good reason for us to get together.
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 October 2020 14: 28 New
              +7
              Duc and archaeologists are people with their own interests and preferences!
              In memory, the case when a Nazi scientist found a "tooth", which was announced as the missing link between a man and a real Aryan !!! Then the truth was found that this is a porpoise tooth ... well, straight according to Freud !!!
              Regarding the chroniclers, scribes and other involved persons (bookbinder, artists, etc.) - we must pay tribute that they deliberately ruled with rare exceptions with intent!
              A monk is sitting in a cell, here at the mass a rumor comes from the colic of passers-by: "The king of the Basurmans has been dying", he squeaks. A year later, the merchants in the bazaar said, “Batu Khan has moved his horses,” he writes again! Then the abbot from the capital Vladimir came, says another khan of the rotten, write it down! He or already another monk smears the lines "King Batu is dead!" Wikipedia is dumb, there are no cheat sheets !!!
              Now guess the researcher when "Batu died", and this is definitely about him?
              A classic example of the Tale of Bygone Years, with goths, svei, lyahs and angels! The scribe wanted to explain in a good way, but it turned out - the Varangians, whoever it is, but not the Varangians! For the article, Valeria is definitely a "plus"!
              1. Lexus
                Lexus 27 October 2020 14: 39 New
                +5
                Archaeologists can at least see with their own eyes what they have "dug". And then either listen to their chatter, or think with your own head, if they really "bear" quite open heresy. There is still more clarity.
        2. Proxima
          Proxima 27 October 2020 09: 15 New
          +7
          Oddly enough, the history of our country should be grateful to this cruel conqueror Timur. First, with his military actions against the Ottomans, he extended the life of our spiritual ally Byzantium by half a century. Secondly, he did not ravage the Russian lands when he turned his army around. But most importantly, Timur dealt such a blow to the Golden Horde, after which it could no longer recover! The "great notice" began, which led to the final elimination of the Horde yoke!
          1. Alexander Suvorov
            Alexander Suvorov 27 October 2020 12: 34 New
            17
            Proxima (Sergey Obolensky)
            But most importantly, Timur dealt such a blow to the Golden Horde, after which it could no longer recover! The "great deputyеtnya ", which led to the final elimination of the Horde yoke!
            Everything is correct with one amendment, the "great zamyatnaya" began much earlier and with the accession of Tokhtamysh has already ended.
            And so yes, Tamerlane actually destroyed the Golden Horde, or rather inflicted such a defeat on her from which she could not recover.
            To the question of why Tamerlane did not move to Russia, only Tamerlane himself can give an answer. I personally hardly believe that Tamerlane was afraid of the icon of the Kazan Mother of God.
          2. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 27 October 2020 13: 05 New
            11
            Quote: Proxima
            But most importantly, Timur dealt such a blow to the Golden Horde, after which it could no longer recover! The "great notice" began, which led to the final elimination of the Horde yoke!

            Everything is a little different from that in that joke:
            - Tell me, is it true that your Izya won a million in the lottery?
            - True. But not in the lottery, but in the cards. Not a million, but a hundred rubles. And he did not win, he lost.

            smile
            Timur really acted against the Golden Horde and Russian princes we could take advantage of the defeats he inflicted on Tokhtamysh, trying to get out of vassal dependence on the khans, but ... alas. They did not even try to extract any dividends from Timur's campaigns against the Horde. So the Horde perfectly "recovered" from the blows of Timur and for another eighty years it regularly received the due exit from Russia.
            And as for the "great zamyatnya", then here you are generally very mistaken. Zamyatnya began after the death (or murder) of Khan Janibek in 1357 and ended with the death of Mamai after the Battle of Kulikovo in 1380. the defeat, thereby put an end to the quarter-century strife in the Horde and objectively strengthened the power of Tokhtamysh, who thus united the entire Horde under his hand. In gratitude, Tokhtamysh burned down Moscow, restored the tribute in full and also demanded his eldest son, Dmitry, Vasily, as hostages. Silver, you see, Dmitry felt sorry to send Mamai, but blood is not sorry. As a result, blood was shed in a river, and silver went to the Horde, only not to Mamai and not in half, but to Tokhtamysh and in full.
            But, in fairness, I must say that Dmitry Ivanovich is not yet the greatest loser. His son and heir Vasily, perhaps, surpassed his dad in this regard. He not only failed (and did not even try!) To take advantage of the two terrible defeats of the Horde from Timur (under Kondurch in 1391 and on the Terek in 1395), but also submissively obeyed his father-in-law Vitovt of Lithuania, yielding to him Russian lands in general for nothing. Oleg Ivanovich Ryazansky, who did not claim supreme power in Russia, showed more concern for Russia as a whole than the Grand Duke. Dmitry, at least he did not lose land, unlike his son.
            In general, yes, Russia could owe a lot to Timur, but the incompetent rulers who were then sitting in Moscow could not derive any benefit for themselves and their state from his campaigns. So for Russia, he remained another steppe destroyer, nothing more. We will not forgive him for the ruin of Yelets! wassat
            1. Lexus
              Lexus 27 October 2020 13: 22 New
              +6
              but the incompetent rulers who were then in Moscow

              Michael hi , "but things are still there ..." (C) winked
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 27 October 2020 13: 38 New
                +7
                A lot has changed since then. There were also more mediocre ones, and there were also quite gifted ones. Dmitry's great-grandson was a very good ruler. Although, a man, Ivan III was, of course, so-so, if not to say more, but as a ruler - more than.
                As for this period, Moscow was very lucky in the period of its formation as an independent principality - three talented rulers in a row - Daniil Alexandrovich and his sons Yuri and Ivan. They were enough for Moscow to become the center of the unification of Rus. As their descendants, starting with Simeon the Proud and up to Vasily the Dark, did not try to ruin everything, they did not succeed. smile
                1. Lexus
                  Lexus 27 October 2020 13: 48 New
                  +4
                  Oleg Ivanovich Ryazansky, who did not claim supreme power in Russia, showed more concern for Russia as a whole than the Grand Duke.

                  History, of course, does not tolerate the subjunctive mood. But, I dare to assure you, in Ryazan itself, the attitude towards Oleg is very ambiguous.

                  tried to ruin everything, they did not succeed

                  And then, as if not to crack ...
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 27 October 2020 13: 59 New
                    +3
                    Quote: lexus
                    But, I dare to assure you, in Ryazan itself, the attitude towards Oleg is very ambiguous.

                    It is necessary to ask the Ryazan comrades how they treat Oleg Ivanovich in Ryazan. To be honest, I would not be proud of such a fellow countryman.
                    1. Lexus
                      Lexus 27 October 2020 14: 50 New
                      +7
                      Actually, they are reproached for excessive "flexibility". And the fact that he often drove the squad "to the dalnyak". As a result, Ryazan was repeatedly ravaged by those, and others, and others.
                      1. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 27 October 2020 15: 22 New
                        +5
                        Well, let's just say, for the last twenty years of his reign, no one has coveted his principality - he has weaned everyone off. Well, the first years fell on the "Great Zamyat", you can't keep track of it. And then he knew how to fight off both Lithuania and the Horde and even, worst of all, from Moscow.
                      2. Lexus
                        Lexus 27 October 2020 15: 54 New
                        +6
                        Once upon a time it was necessary settle down... In my opinion, reconciliation with Moscow, recovering after the burning of Tokhtamysh, was the reason for this lull. And, if my memory serves me, Gold-domed exactly in this historical period of time was not besieged either.
                      3. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 27 October 2020 16: 11 New
                        +3
                        Quote: lexus
                        reconciliation with Moscow, recovering from the burning of Tokhtamysh

                        happened after Moscow from Oleg got a good piece of cabbage soup in 1385 near Perevitsk. Vladimir Andreevich Serpukhovskoy, the winner at Kulikovo Field, was defeated in one wicket. I had to involve Sergius of Radonezh in the negotiations. But it was Moscow that started the war, under the pretext of revenge for what Oleg allegedly pointed out to Tokhtamysh in 1382 on the Oka. Like, he knew nothing about them ... smile
                        Well, the next invasion was already under Edigey in 1408, but then everyone suffered - both Moscow and Ryazan and many more. Oleg has been gone for six years.
                      4. Lexus
                        Lexus 27 October 2020 17: 09 New
                        +8
                        "Instant karma" befell Oleg literally two weeks after Tokhtamysh left (approx. already from Ryazan, on the way back). The "elder brother" came, whose squad practically did not suffer during the burning, and "cleaned up" what the Horde did not have time to resist. He made a huge pogrom to the heap. I fully admit that revenge seized Oleg so much that by 1385 his army turned out to be, among other things, more motivated. In fact, the Battle of Perevitskaya took place not because of "serving the enemy", but because of an uninvited and far from "guest" visit (proverb?) Of the Ryazan people to Kolomna, Dmitry's patrimony, earlier. Further, I do not deny, there was a case - they piled on with an indecent account. Regarding the notorious fords - in those years the Oka was much fuller than today. The "non-Hyperboreans" and without Oleg could hardly have been unaware of the only "passage yard" that allowed transporting heavy siege vehicles in the Serpukhov region. Nevertheless, my fellow countrymen managed to get rid of this shameful cliché only in the distant 1572. smile
                      5. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 27 October 2020 17: 35 New
                        +6
                        Are you from Ryazan too? Did not know.
                        Well, in any case, any war between Ryazan and Moscow was somehow provoked by Moscow itself, which was slowly eating away from its neighbor piece by piece - Kolomna, Lopasnya, what else ...
                        In general, Oleg Ryazansky is a very remarkable person, worthy of a separate series of articles. It seems to me that of all the contemporaries who acted with him at the same time and in the same region, including the Horde and Lithuania, he was perhaps the most capable statesman, and if a person of this caliber would have stood at the head of the Moscow principality, they stopped paying tribute would be half a century earlier - at least. Even during the heyday of his power, Vytautas drove around Smolensk ... No, really, very nice, in my opinion, character.
                      6. Esoteric
                        Esoteric 27 October 2020 17: 56 New
                        0
                        In Ryazan, Grand Duke Oleg is treated excellently. This is the pride of the Ryazan land. You can type on the Internet and look at the monument that is installed in the very center of the city.
                        You can even say more. They are proud that the principality retained its independence from the Moscow principality for the longest time.
                      7. Lexus
                        Lexus 27 October 2020 18: 47 New
                        +8
                        Do not rush to "scratch everyone under the same brush".
                        A reason for pride, to say the least, dubious.
                        There are always a lot of controversial points in history. hi
                    2. Esoteric
                      Esoteric 27 October 2020 18: 09 New
                      +4
                      A little humor - "Ryazan kosopuzaya" smile
                    3. Lexus
                      Lexus 27 October 2020 18: 09 New
                      10
                      "No one is immune from error." (FROM)
                      I'm not talking about my "Ryazan". Of course, it is much easier now to praise or condemn someone from the past. But, objectively, there is still no unequivocal certainty that, all of a sudden, "if only, if only," in the end it turned out better. And Oleg Ryazansky is no exception. Somewhere right, somewhere not very. I completely agree - an outstanding historical personality. The very fact that he was brought in as an arbitrator in the disputes between Moscow and Tver speaks for itself of enormous authority. I really hope that Valery has already taken our aspirations and hopes "on a pencil". Unfortunately, I would like to point out that the sources are extremely scarce and "difficult to retrieve".

                      The bottom line is that fratricidal wars only play into the hands of a real, common enemy. This is what I inculcate with varying success in my "wards" in the "Politics" section. Alas, in relation to individual "characters" with "unicellular" thinking, "Haloperidol" turns out to be a more effective tool.

                      "To get through to the brain, you need to have it at least."
                      / For quotes /

                      That is why I am increasingly appearing in the "History" section. Only here it turns out to once again feel like a "green" youth and listen to a serious uncle with an open mouth. Even when they are fighting.

                      Phew, you prompted me to "brainwash" and shake my memory. Thank you very much! drinks
                    4. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 27 October 2020 19: 12 New
                      +3
                      Even when they are fighting.
                      Thank you Brother Alexus! tongue laughing
                    5. Lexus
                      Lexus 27 October 2020 19: 29 New
                      +6
                      Yes, in general, not at all. I wrote it as it really is. smile

                    6. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 27 October 2020 19: 40 New
                      +4
                      Boromir was lucky. He did not try to walk around the night Sverdlovsk at the end of the eighties.
                    7. Lexus
                      Lexus 27 October 2020 19: 52 New
                      +4
                      Yeltsin Center? Square - and he had to fight back with battles.
                    8. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 27 October 2020 19: 58 New
                      +2
                      No. At the end of the eighties, Sverdlovsk was still that gopocenter.
                    9. Lexus
                      Lexus 27 October 2020 21: 14 New
                      +3
                      And I'm talking about now. On HIV and drugs, Ekat is ahead of all of Russia.
                    10. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 27 October 2020 21: 27 New
                      +3
                      About drug trafficking, this has always been the case, well, over the past 30 years ... About those infected with HIV ... Here the numbers may vary, because the number of medical centers that do not disseminate information about patients in Moscow and St. Petersburg is many times greater than in Yekatirenburg.
                    11. Lexus
                      Lexus 27 October 2020 21: 39 New
                      +3
                      Maintenance therapy for HIV is simply insane money. Anonymity makes it impossible to receive it from the "state". Not many people can pull at their own expense - and "wealthy" people, as a rule, "in the mass", are incredibly stingy.
                    12. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 27 October 2020 21: 52 New
                      +3
                      Sorry, I disagree. Everything is normal "in the state" with support for HIV-infected people. At least, it was so, before the "coronoshisis". Now I do not know...
                    13. Lexus
                      Lexus 27 October 2020 21: 56 New
                      +3
                      If they are not registered - what kind of support? This is what he meant.
                    14. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 27 October 2020 22: 21 New
                      +3
                      And what does the poor need to register? Only declare the alleged contact, undergo tests and register. Yes, it is very difficult psychologically. It is very difficult to recognize yourself as a "living dead". Meanwhile, one of these was lying on the neighbors, with me, and, in general, did not feel his own discrimination in society.
                    15. Lexus
                      Lexus 27 October 2020 22: 31 New
                      +5
                      You wrote about "centers that do not distribute information" ...
                    16. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 27 October 2020 22: 40 New
                      +2
                      Yes, because the "centers that disseminate information" in this state react very inadequately to the spreading problem.
                    17. Lexus
                      Lexus 27 October 2020 22: 53 New
                      +7
                      If commercial centers do not put their patients on state records, the latter are not provided with rehabilitation and medicines at the expense of the budget. I'm talking about that. As for the rest, no one pokes a finger at HIV-positive people even in the Ministry of Defense and Healthcare institutions, does not engage in branding (ringing) and does not inform those in contact.
                    18. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 27 October 2020 23: 03 New
                      +4
                      If commercial centers do not register their patients
                      They bet, how! A doctor who detects HIV in a patient, but does not declare it, is deprived of his official job and name in a professional environment.
                    19. Lexus
                      Lexus 27 October 2020 23: 10 New
                      +7
                      Have you forgotten what country you live in? A question of the order of the amounts. And what devil then he himself wrote about "not distributing? .. Everything ... went to" Politics ".
      2. Liam
        Liam 27 October 2020 22: 29 New
        +1
        Quote: lexus
        Maintenance therapy for HIV is simply insane money




        Between 13 and 80.000 a year Not crazy money
      3. Lexus
        Lexus 27 October 2020 22: 37 New
        +4
        Add to this "regular healing" of HIV-related illnesses. yes
  2. Icelord
    Icelord 27 October 2020 19: 54 New
    +3
    It seems not Boromir, but Stark. But I won't give my head for cutting wassat
  3. Lexus
    Lexus 27 October 2020 21: 13 New
    +2
    Sean Bean. And this is the main point! fellow
  4. Icelord
    Icelord 27 October 2020 21: 17 New
    +1
    Yeah, but I won't give my head to be cut off, not Stark laughing I mean, I'm not a Stark
  5. Esoteric
    Esoteric 27 October 2020 18: 24 New
    +3
    And you write about it. It will be very interesting to read!
  6. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 27 October 2020 18: 38 New
    +4
    In the foreseeable future, there are no plans to write any articles and are not expected, so it is better not to count on me in this matter. But Alexei could well be "overexposed" by some publication. Well, or Valery, "meeting the wishes of the workers." smile
    Only the topic is complex, there is little reliable information, there are almost no direct sources, even who exactly was Oleg's father is not known for sure ... But the more interesting and exciting the work will be.
  7. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 27 October 2020 19: 02 New
    +2
    In general, Oleg Ryazansky is a very remarkable person, worthy of a separate series of articles.
    Write !!!
  8. Lexus
    Lexus 27 October 2020 19: 48 New
    +5
    No, spare me. I assess my abilities soberly.
  9. Esoteric
    Esoteric 27 October 2020 18: 18 New
    +4
    Well, Kolomna, not so long ago, was the fiefdom of the Ryazan principality, a separate, independent state, not obliged to Moscow in anything. Kolomna was subscribed to by Moscow, taking advantage of Ryazan's weakness. Naturally they remembered this.
  10. Korsar4
    Korsar4 27 October 2020 19: 28 New
    +3
    And then there is the wonderful city of Yegoryevsk. And a derivative word from it is "to ruin". This is to the question of the possible advantages of border towns.
  11. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 27 October 2020 20: 35 New
    +4
    And also, for example, the city of Zheleznodorozhny, which is now a district of the city of Balashikha, which at the beginning of the last century bore the proud name Obiralovka.
  12. Korsar4
    Korsar4 27 October 2020 20: 46 New
    +4
    "Gorelovo, Neelovo,
    Bad harvest too "(c).
  13. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 27 October 2020 20: 56 New
    +4
    "Good daddy, why charm,
    Keep Vanya smart? "(C)
  14. Korsar4
    Korsar4 27 October 2020 21: 21 New
    +4
    “And very clever -
    Like Ivan- "(c).

    Censorship threw out a word from the song.
  15. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 27 October 2020 21: 38 New
    +4
    "Fi, what a bad bite you have, dad!
    Identity Vanka, from the suburb, his throat is breaking! "(C)
    PySy: for twenty-five years I have been tormented by the question, where did the princess get such knowledge about the intricacies of the vocal of the stars of the domestic underground?
  16. Korsar4
    Korsar4 27 October 2020 22: 22 New
    +1
    So

    “The kingdom is small. There is nowhere to turn around ”(c).
  17. Lexus
    Lexus 27 October 2020 21: 52 New
    +3
    Sergei hi,
    When you write obscene words, replace domestic letters in the word with English counterparts. And everything is all right! Unless, of course, this is not a mate at all (in this case, there will always be "informers" "living" in the "tape", and immediately "hand over" to the hot arms of the Inqui ... Administration) wink
  18. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 27 October 2020 22: 55 New
    +4
    Brother Alexus! In this case, do not give us valuable advice in our game! You better help financially! You can burn us at the stake, but this is our game, our risks and our rules!
  19. Lexus
    Lexus 27 October 2020 22: 59 New
    +5
    103132, Russia, Moscow, st. Ilyinka, 23
    President of the Russian Federation V.V.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Proxima
    Proxima 27 October 2020 13: 57 New
    +4
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    We can be proud of the fact that it was Prince Dmitry Ivanovich, due to greed and political myopia, who quarreled with Mamai and, having inflicted a defeat on him, thereby put an end to the quarter-century strife in the Horde and objectively strengthened the power of Tokhtamysh, who thus united all Horde. In gratitude, Tokhtamysh burned Moscow

    It is a pity that I have a phone at hand, and not a normal computer, I would refute each of your suggestions by quotation. Well, it’s not funny to hear this bearded tale from the “historians” of the new wave about the “wrecking” rule of Dmitry Donskoy! Dmitry's most significant achievement is that for the first time (!!!) the Grand Duchy of Moscow and Vladimir became the hereditary possession of the dynasty of Moscow princes. This is a cardinal step towards the unification of the Russian lands! Therefore, the assertion that the ruin of Moscow by Tokhtamysh threw Donskoy back at the time of his grandfather Kalita is incorrect. And they are trying to convince us that the three battles won - Vozhskoe, Kulikovskoe and Volokolamskoe - are less important (the Horde probably announced to us with tourist trips) than a one-time capture of a city from a raid. But the Russians took Sarai with sudden raids as much as 4 (!) Times. So what? Further, about the hush, which continued for another hundred years after Tokhtamysh and until the final lifting of the yoke - have you heard anything? Only under Edygeya the Horde was united for a short period. About Tokhtamyshev's tribute in full - I recommend that you figure it out on your own - there is no time to explain on your fingers. Good luck. hi
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 27 October 2020 15: 04 New
      +4
      Quote: Proxima
      The most significant achievement of Dmitry is that for the first time (!!!) the Grand Duchy of Moscow and Vladimir became the hereditary possession of the dynasty of Moscow princes.

      This achievement is significant, but for the first time the reign of Vladimir was recognized as the fiefdom of the Moscow princely house by Mamai during the life of Metropolitan Alexy, who, in fact, ruled the country. This is the merit of the metropolitan, not the prince. Under him, the policy of the Moscow principality was balanced and effective, and most importantly, he did not fit into the showdown between the khans in the Horde, but on the contrary, he successfully used them. Well, as Dmitry matured, as zealous leaped at him, troubles began. And as Alexy died - so in general there was no restraint on him. The result is known: the devastation of Moscow, which has not happened since the time of Dudeneva's army, and the complete restoration of the Horde's sovereignty over Russia. Plus a military defeat from Ryazan and enmity with Tver.
      And what were the prerequisites - strife in the Horde, know, support the weakest with money, and mind your own business ... And Olgerd's death and strife in Lithuania - if you had supported the older Olgerdovichs Andrei and Dmitry, and Lithuania would also become Orthodox, or even split up altogether , fell to pieces. There were no even weak attempts.
      Quote: Proxima
      the assertion that the ruin of Moscow by Tokhtamysh threw Donskoy back at the time of his grandfather Kalita is incorrect.

      This is your statement, not mine. Themselves said nonsense, they themselves refuted it. "Thrown away" ... Under Ivan Kalita, Nizhny Novgorod was under the direct authority of Moscow, this situation will return only in the time of Vasily Dmitrievich. This is the same as reproaching Putin for the fact that his policy threw Russia back during the Soviet era. (Some, by the way, manage to wassat laughing ) So my statement did not drop it, but significantly slowed it down. Tver, Ryazan and Novgorod, Dmitry, his son and grandson lost outright.
      Quote: Proxima
      The Russians took Sarai with sudden raids as much as 4 (!) times.

      Wonderful! Great! And your dear Dmitry Ivanovich put an end to this business, ending the strife in the Horde. By the way, in what years were these trips not prompt? And who then hung these ushkuiniks, can you tell me?
      Quote: Proxima
      About Tokhtamyshev's tribute in full - I recommend that you figure it out on your own - there is no time to explain on your fingers. Good luck.

      I figured it out. Now it's your turn. Success hi laughing
      Quote: Proxima
      Further, about the hush, which continued for another hundred years after Tokhtamysh and until the final lifting of the yoke - have you heard anything? Only under Edygeya the Horde was united for a short period.

      I didn’t hear about it in the time of Tokhtamysh. He came to power in 1380 and was finally defeated by Timur in 1395. Fifteen years in power without any troubles. Then Timur-Kutlug and other khans, propped up by Edigey, were quite a single state until 1410 - another 15 years. Tokhtamysh's attempts to return something to himself, even with the help of Lithuania, ended in Vorskla. And only by the end of the 1420s the Horde began to really disintegrate and this disintegration ended only in 1460, and already in 1472, in fact, the dependence of Russia on the Horde ceased.
      So the heroic (without irony), but absolutely useless victory of Dmitry on the Kulikovo field preserved the unity of the Horde for thirty years - at least until the death of Pulad Khan.
      And what other merits of Dmitry Ivanovich, besides the one that actually belongs to Metropolitan Alexy, can you name more? laughing
    2. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 27 October 2020 17: 04 New
      13
      Proxima (Sergey Obolensky)
      Well, it’s not funny to hear this bearded tale from the “historians” of the new wave about the “wrecking” rule of Dmitry Donskoy!
      Sergei hi , do not interfere with the flight of thoughts "artist, pardon me, historian", he sees so ... laughing lol laughing
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 27 October 2020 18: 29 New
        +2
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        he sees so ...

        Because he has eyes that are able to see, located on the head, which has a brain that can, in turn, think. If you have a similar set, and do not just think that you have, you should see the same thing.
        The Russian princes at that time had two main tasks - the unification of the lands and the weakening of the Horde's influence on their internal affairs, up to the exit from dependence (but this is already later).
        And what do you think Dmitry succeeded in? laughing
        Answer, do not hesitate ... laughing
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 27 October 2020 19: 55 New
          13
          Trilobite Master (Michael)
          Because he has eyes that are able to see, located on the head, which has a brain that can, in turn, think. If you have a similar set, and do not just think that you have, you should see the same thing.
          Is that still purkua? Why did you suddenly decide that only your point of view is correct? Doesn't the crown press on your head?
          The Russian princes at that time had two main tasks - the unification of the lands and the weakening of the Horde's influence on their internal affairs, up to the exit from dependence (but this is already later).
          This was actually done by Dmitry Donskoy, and started by his ancestor Ivan Kalita.
          And to listen to you, would you still have to pay tribute to the Horde ?!

          Look, you here on VO seem to be the spokesman for the "majority" type of opinion and imagine yourself to be a sort of "Napoleon", whose opinion is the "TRUE" in the last instance. Only the trouble is, neither you nor anyone else were in place and in the conditions of Dmitry Donskoy, this time. Secondly, neither you, nor any of the living people know for certain, but how it really was. Third, what is your position about the supposedly great and wise Mikhail Tverskoy and Olga Ryazansky based on? Neither one nor the other, with all their imaginary "genius" by you personally, were unable to gather around themselves even a small fraction of what Moscow gathered. As a result, the capital of the united Russia is in Moscow, and not in Tver or Ryazan, so the fact remains, despite your "smart" interpretations.

          You can continue to revel in the "greatness" of your own intellect, but neither your intellect nor the type of "knowledge" of history makes an impression on me. Although I must admit, sometimes you have very, I emphasize, VERY sound thoughts, but not this time. And then Dmitry Donskoy is not the same and Ivan III is not at all great. Only the history of the formation of Russia says just the opposite and wipes his feet about such "myth-downers".
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 27 October 2020 21: 07 New
            +2
            Quote: Alexander Suvorov
            This was actually done by Dmitry Donskoy, and started by his ancestor Ivan Kalita.

            Kalita - yes, it is done, and a lot has been done for this. Ivan III - yes, done, and he received the nickname "Great" quite deservedly. Metropolitan Alexy Byakont - yes, he also did a lot, though not Rurik, but I put him on a par with the most prominent and gifted rulers of the country.
            But tell me: what did Dmitry do? On what basis can it be put on a par with the above rulers? Well, at least one of his achievements?
            As a result of his reign, we have a united Horde, the Krevsky union, and unfriendly neutrality from Ryazan, Tver and Novgorod. In fact, it is political isolation. The unification of lands was inhibited, the power of the Horde over Russia was strengthened.
            And your arguments, they say, are all the same Moscow, and not Tver, so these are the merits, rather, of his predecessors - great-grandfather Danila and Yuri with Ivan Danilovich, and Metropolitan Alexy. It was with them that Moscow rose, grew, and Dmitry ... Well, at least he didn’t waste anything, unlike his son, and then thanks. And so ... he put a lot of people in an unnecessary war with Mamai, cleared the way for Tokhtamysh to Moscow, with his own hands, in fact, having united the Horde, blew the war with Ryazan into one wicket, allowed the Catholicization of Lithuania, which was mostly Orthodox, and its unification with Poland ... Well done, there is nothing to say! Genius!
            And further. Who but descendants can judge the deeds of their ancestors? What experience should we learn from if not from them? And what will we learn if we only gasp, roll our eyes, admire their accomplishments?
            The Battle of Kulikovo is glorious and militarily executed very well. But what is the use of it, if even the victory in it was only to the detriment of Russia? Why get involved in a war in which victory is just as bad as defeat, if not worse?
            So, I repeat my question once again: what did Dmitry do that would allow him to be put on a par with Ivan Kalita and Ivan the Great? Answer this question, at least for yourself, just answer honestly. Emotionless.
            1. Alexander Suvorov
              Alexander Suvorov 28 October 2020 01: 33 New
              13
              You and I will never come to a common denominator, for you the position of compromise with the enemy is closer, but for me a fight is better, albeit with an unpredictable result. People like you prefer to sit back and wait, and I prefer a fight. As old man Porthos used to say, I fight because I fight.
              Which of us is right and who is not ?! Then God and Time will judge.
              Do you think Nikolai Sirotinin needed to take an unequal battle, or did he need to negotiate with the Nazis? And the nameless huntsman in burning Smolensk in 1812? Say it's not the same thing, but not a fig like that, it's exactly the same thing. So your position of conciliation is disgusting for me personally. And therefore, we will never agree in views.
              I don't see any point in persuading you, because I can't convince you just like you did me. Let me take my leave, to be honest, I had a better opinion of you and was very unpleasantly disappointed that I was mistaken.
            2. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 28 October 2020 12: 26 New
              +2
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              for you the position of compromise with the enemy is closer, but for me a fight is better

              Well, fight like that, and do not call names because of the fence. smile The transition to personalities in the absence of arguments on the subject of the dispute cannot be called otherwise. request Take an example from Bar - he climbs into every fight and defends his opinion, as best he can, to the last. But your words are at odds with your deeds.
              If from the very beginning you said something like "The Battle of Kulikovo is a glorious page in our history, Dmitry Donskoy is a hero, and the rest is me I don't know and I don't want to know", I would put you a pole for courage and honesty and forget about your existence, because I am interested in communicating with people who know a lot and want to know more.
              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              Say it's not the same thing, but not a fig like that, it's exactly the same thing.

              Yes, they are not the same thing. You are speaking from the position of an ordinary soldier, although we are talking about a prince - a commander and a politician. The soldier received an order and must fulfill it at the cost of his own life. It's simple. And the prince must give this order, and such that the goal was achieved, and the number of soldiers killed as few as possible, and for this he must think, and yes - negotiate, including with enemies so that his soldiers do not fight in alone against a numerically superior enemy, heroically dying, but on the contrary, they won as part of a coalition with minimal losses. This is much more complicated.
              In 1812 Barclay de Tolly, if he preferred how you, a fight, could valiantly lay down his army in bones in some border battle with Napoleon, die gloriously or surrender to an honorable captivity. It would be easier that way. But he was retreating. As well as retreating (instead of valiantly perishing in full strength) the regiment in which he served, and whose retreat, in fact, was covered by Sirotinin.
              Think about it and evaluate the reign of Dmitry Donskoy from this point of view, as a prince, and not as an ordinary soldier or a peasant.
  • Phil77
    Phil77 27 October 2020 09: 45 New
    10
    [quote = Korsar4] Sretenka - very good.
    good
    Good morning to the venerable audience!


    Then and now! And there was also a cinema * Uranus *, but this is from childhood!
    Valery, thank you for the article! Interesting!
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 27 October 2020 09: 55 New
      +7
      but this is from childhood
      And the disgusting tow trucks were already there! negative laughing
      1. Lexus
        Lexus 27 October 2020 13: 16 New
        +5
        Antoine de Saint of Peter! hi
        As a rule, all "innovations" spread throughout the country either from Moscow or from St. Petersburg.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 27 October 2020 13: 26 New
          +4
          Brother Alexus! hi
          And in St. Petersburg, from the Finland station
          1. Lexus
            Lexus 27 October 2020 13: 48 New
            +6
            There is no branch from there to the Ozero cooperative.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 27 October 2020 14: 43 New
              +3
              For that before "Ozerkov" is. Most of the "orphans" of the city of St. Petersburg live along this line.
              1. Lexus
                Lexus 27 October 2020 14: 54 New
                +7
                "We ate all the cabbage for a month ahead, you bastards!" (FROM)
          2. depressant
            depressant 27 October 2020 13: 51 New
            +7
            Good lunch everyone, colleagues!)))
            The author says that historians in vain included Georgia and Armenia in the possessions of Tamerlane. During my wonderful school years, I managed to unearth a book of a certain Georgian writer in the storehouse of the factory library. Believing that this was a novel starting with historical events, I began to read. It turned out to be a historical overview. And in that review, Tamerlane's invasion of Georgia was described in detail, references were made to documents. However, the series of events in the incursions into Sakartvelo was so varied and dense that it caused rejection of this kind of reading in general. So many conquerors ran across the land, you can't remember all of them, but I knew about Timur and was surprised when I read the book - how did the Georgians fight back? Apparently, there were other Georgians then)))
            Well, maybe historians do not mention Georgia as part of Tamerlane's empire that they fought back.
            True, it may be that Tamerlane was just passing by)))
            1. VLR
              27 October 2020 14: 51 New
              +7
              No, they did not fight back, they resisted stubbornly, including all resources - from treachery and deception (Bagrat V swore to convert to Islam, and instead led Tamerlane's detachment into an ambush) to the mass flight of the population to the mountains. But it ended with the loss of seemingly inaccessible mountain fortresses, southern and eastern regions, which were inhabited by Turkic peoples, the capture of 60 thousand people into slavery and the complete destruction of 700 different objects - cities, fortresses, monasteries, villages
              1. depressant
                depressant 27 October 2020 16: 30 New
                +6
                Thank you for your answer, Mr. Ryzhov! )))
                This means that Georgia, judging by that book, was powerfully pressed from all sides. Only the masters of the press from the east gradually disappeared into the steppes and sands, and from the south ... Erdogan was formed! ))
                It turns out that only one imperial mentality remains. A reason to know why one survived and the other disappeared.
                In general, the article reads like a script for a series)))
                1. Lexus
                  Lexus 27 October 2020 17: 29 New
                  +7
                  Hello dear Lyudmila Yakovlevna! love

                  Fragment from the film "Prisoner of the Caucasus." (L. Gaidai, 1966)
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 27 October 2020 17: 56 New
                    +4
                    Good evening, colleague! love
                    Hey ... And the video is not available - the copyright of some user))
                    So, you see, we will soon move on to descriptions like "Do you remember, in the film ..."))
                    1. Lexus
                      Lexus 27 October 2020 18: 13 New
                      +5
                      There, under Video not available, there is a clickable link Watch on YouTube... We poke our "finger" there and look at it in the opened tab.wink
                    2. depressant
                      depressant 27 October 2020 19: 04 New
                      +3
                      Found! ...
                      Short snippet. Shurik believes that he is charged with the collapse of the chapel. Well, when the movie was filmed, it was humor, and now it's reality. In the 14th century, the chapel was destroyed by some sultan. And now he went out without a mask - he destroyed the state, otherwise they will not be regarded. Judging by the size of the fines. By the way, today Rospotrebnadzor has sentenced the population to mandatory universal wearing of masks. And so I am thinking: what if the population would carry them without a verdict - without exception? What would Rospotrebnadzor come up with in such a situation in order to show the need for the state of its considerable staff? Would you tell me to wear gas masks? )))
                    3. Lexus
                      Lexus 27 October 2020 19: 16 New
                      +5
                      The fragment aptly mentions the 14th century - just the invasion of Emir Timur ... Oh ... As for the "muzzles" - it's a sore corn. I have, honestly, "fed the dog" to the adherents of the "fabulous" in the "Politics" section. Therefore, I will be brief. If they put them on us, then we will be angrier. I have acquaintances zaputintsy in the yard already more oppositionists swear.
                      The end of Gauleiter is a matter of time.

                      Comrade, believe: she will rise,
                      Captivating Star of Happiness,
                      Russia will wake up from a dream,
                      And on the ruins of autocracy
                      Write our names!
                    4. depressant
                      depressant 27 October 2020 19: 47 New
                      +3
                      On the rubble ...
                      How not to be under them! Here was Tamerlane. I read the article carefully. The first socialist emperor. Well, almshouses are there for the rings and the sick. For those in need - targeted assistance and all that. Construction, again. Filmed and imprisoned presumptuous officials up to his own son. In general, facing the people. But the empire collapsed. She covered herself with my debris and a copper basin. Because the social well-being of the metropolis was determined by the emperor's military leadership and the speed of economic recovery of the plundered colonies. The colonies did not stifle the appetite of the metropolis, they began to wither, the successors of the military leadership did not have any, they did not have enough economic prerequisites to expand the area of ​​the colonies, and when the founder of state socialism died, everything fell to pieces.
                      Our Red Socialist Empire also collapsed. Socialism is not alive with idealism. And how the wheel of history turned - 600 years! It is along these two milestones that the meaning of the time required for the passage of one turn of the historical spiral becomes clear. It is equal to the time of crystallization of the popular mentality.
                    5. Icelord
                      Icelord 27 October 2020 19: 59 New
                      -1
                      I don't want to argue with you, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, but personally, I'm just happy that she crumbled
                    6. depressant
                      depressant 27 October 2020 20: 37 New
                      +2
                      Which of the two?))))
                      Only ... where did you get the idea that I'm arguing? I'm looking for reasons! )))
                      The peculiarity of my personal mentality is that I always live in the proposed circumstances, slowly and extensively comprehending, but how does it happen that there are no favorable ones for me? ))))
                    7. Icelord
                      Icelord 27 October 2020 20: 44 New
                      0
                      Red empire which, under another I did not live smile
                2. Lexus
                  Lexus 27 October 2020 20: 57 New
                  +7
                  The guarantee of the longevity of a single country is its mono-ethnicity and mono-confessional nature. Previously, this was achieved by massacres, the imposition of one's "faith" and the total settlement of the territory by the titular people. It's just that physiology is such that it is impossible to swallow and digest pieces larger than a certain size. For obvious reasons, we do not take into account the United States (the state was created artificially, there were practically no indigenous people left in it, the rest mixed and began to be identified as Americans, because, in fact, being refugees-colonists, they could no longer be considered subjects of their homelands, plus a significant distance from metropolises). The USSR actually collapsed because the inhabitants of the republics still identified themselves according to the national principle, and not the state, and specifically the Russians were not the ethnic majority in them. Why hasn't Russia collapsed yet? National outskirts: some are relatively small in number, others have no resource potential. But the flywheel is picking up speed. And it is already ridiculous to sweep aside the religious component. It is unambiguously - evil - works as an accelerator of the process. State identification is still bad. Local "kings", with outside support, implant, so-called, "territorial. The concepts of" Cossacks "," Siberians "and others are unacceptable! As well as slogans in the style of" Enough to feed ...! "If this is not corrected, Russia is very will soon repeat the fate of all previously collapsed empires. And we, especially those who consider themselves Russians, will face either genocide (more likely, alas), or naturalization. A lone lion is not a rival to a flock of hyenas. They will devour him with bones and giblets. Such cases.
                3. depressant
                  depressant 27 October 2020 21: 15 New
                  +2
                  Cool, colleague!
                  That's right, you said everything. Therefore, we are dying out at an accelerated pace. To make the hyenas' work easier. And, surprisingly, there are few of them, but for some reason they are around.
                4. Lexus
                  Lexus 27 October 2020 21: 34 New
                  +3
                  All scavengers have excellent scent and vision.
          3. Phil77
            Phil77 27 October 2020 19: 56 New
            +3
            Quote: lexus

            Comrade, believe: she will rise,
            Captivating Star of Happiness,
            Russia will wake up from a dream,
            And on the ruins of autocracy
            Write our names!

            Lesh, the masks made me a real oppie too !!!! am
          4. Lexus
            Lexus 27 October 2020 22: 05 New
            +5
            Serge hi
            Eh, and it all started with your brilliant appearance in "Politics" about Sobakevich's "curb disease". And here we are discussing the collapse of empires ... It is simply inevitable when even completely law-abiding, non-politicized citizens begin to openly hate "power." request
          5. Phil77
            Phil77 28 October 2020 06: 57 New
            +3
            Quote: lexus
            And here we are discussing the collapse of empires ...

            Good morning! Then the question is. If the government, by its inept decisions, itself pushes the people to hatred, is this something special?
            Or is it all just ineptitude? But what kind of unprofessionalism, inability to lead the country, must one reach?
            Or is it already an occupation? These eternal Chubais, Kudrins, Grefs, Sabians, Mutki? Did you name someone?
          6. Lexus
            Lexus 28 October 2020 11: 18 New
            +7
            Sergey, good! hi
            I put the ellipsis in the wrong place (it should have been before "... A") and didn't check it. Therefore, it came out as a reproach, ambiguous ... This is a prelude to it, agreed by the collaborators brought to power with the occupiers. With the aim of irreversibly weakening us, so that they could not fight back. Genocide / extermination to free the territory. There are many more "eternal" ones. Starting with the "nullified" one and its environment at posts and positions. They are no longer ours. Hence the "results". There should be no illusion in this.
          7. Phil77
            Phil77 28 October 2020 13: 08 New
            +1
            I agree, I shake my hand.

            Only humor remains. Until the evening!
          8. Lexus
            Lexus 28 October 2020 13: 11 New
            +6
            Arbeiten, nigga! laughing
            See you soon! drinks
          9. Phil77
            Phil77 28 October 2020 18: 18 New
            +2
            Quote: lexus
            nigga!


            Eck there * you got a reminder * -that's cool! I could have fixed it / + /.
          10. Lexus
            Lexus 28 October 2020 18: 40 New
            +5
            Thank you, Seryozha! And he noticed that they couldn't argue with anything worthwhile. Sick people. And I can't help them with anything. I reproach myself for this. request
  • Phil77
    Phil77 27 October 2020 19: 54 New
    +4
    Quote: depressant
    ? What would Rospotrebnadzor come up with in such a situation in order to show the need for the state of its considerable staff? I would have sentenced to wear

    Oh !!!!!! The same thought came on the way to work! laughing
  • Lexus
    Lexus 27 October 2020 22: 08 New
    +3
    Even just the name, formed from the word "consume", already hints at the fact that you should not expect anything productive and worthwhile from the "carrier".
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 27 October 2020 19: 31 New
    +4
    Passed there today.

    “In the morning in the newspaper -
    In the evening in a couplet "(c).
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 27 October 2020 19: 59 New
      +3
      Hello Sergey! And near the metro, * Cheburechnaya * is there a place to be? I have not been in my native land for a very long time! Correctly Konstantin noticed, this is not that Moscow!
      Station * Sukharevskaya *, b. * Collective farm *!
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 27 October 2020 20: 38 New
        +2
        Working. The funny thing is, sometimes I run in after work on Sundays.
        I discovered for myself recently. And I perceive it as a piece of the atmosphere of the past.
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 27 October 2020 20: 46 New
          +4
          The most delicious * cheburek * points in Moscow / former! /.
          1 / On Trubnaya, there is now the former (O! Irony of fate !!!) House of Political Education in its place.
          2 / near the metro station * Kolkhoznaya *
          3 / Avtozavodskaya st., It's like going to ZiL.
          4 / near the metro station * Avtozavodskaya *, on the square, in the pavilion. good
          Basically, everyone has their own points.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 27 October 2020 20: 54 New
            +4
            Since he is not a Muscovite, he is not so attached to cheburek.

            In addition to Sretenka, I could mention at Kitay-Gorod. And that's probably all.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 28 October 2020 10: 55 New
              +4
              Since he is not a Muscovite, he is not so attached to cheburek.

              I can't say for pasties. what But on Sunday I had the honor to taste the real khychins straight from the most sunny Kabardino-Balkaria. winked Oh .. delicious! very! good with potatoes and cheese. drinks
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 28 October 2020 12: 25 New
                +2
                For me, Caucasian cuisine is primarily associated with the city of Poti. But then we lived in another country.
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 28 October 2020 12: 31 New
                  +3
                  For me, Caucasian cuisine is primarily associated with the city of Poti. But then we lived in another country.

                  This is yes. But then I was still small ... Therefore, I know Caucasian cuisine only from the present! request so, last year Anton and I sat very well in a Georgian restaurant. drinks
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 28 October 2020 15: 51 New
                    +2
                    In Moscow, on Myasnitskaya, there is an institution called Jonjoli. Since this is the name of a dish made of feathery klekachka flowers, I could not help but go.
                  2. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 28 October 2020 16: 08 New
                    +3
                    Since this is the name of a dish made of feathery klekachka flowers, I could not help but go.

                    Sergey, bravo! I did not expect otherwise! Your knowledge bribes ... good
                  3. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 28 October 2020 18: 27 New
                    +2
                    This is the sphere of my professional interests. Nothing special.
  • depressant
    depressant 27 October 2020 20: 12 New
    +3
    That's where I got all the association with gas masks from? )))
    I'm a fan, I'm sorry, of the series of books by Dmitry Sillov about the Sniper - exactly! After mentally experiencing your natural "Fuuu! ... How can you!" and a delicate but significant cough, hidden smiles and unspoken aloud, but accusations of teenage addictions, I declare responsibly: I read and reread. So, there, in the Pripyat Zone, snorks live. Mutants who hide disfigured faces under army gas masks. Lightning-fast, skilled killers are a waste of a scientific experiment.
    A little more, and we will become snorks. Note that snorks are killers who do not obey any instructions. There is no need to put gas masks on us!
    And I wear a mask. I sewed two together. To the point!
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 27 October 2020 20: 16 New
      +4
      Quote: depressant
      snorks live

      Who are the former soldiers? Are they jumping like that? So you can also cough meaningfully in my address. I also read. wink Actually, why not?
      1. depressant
        depressant 27 October 2020 20: 58 New
        +1
        Well, I shake your hand, fellow in obscene literary walks! )))
        Only I read and re-read The Sniper Saga because there are very strong moments of deep and bright sadness about a failed future, written in a way that they were not presented in any classical work. Is that in "The Master and Margarita" - remember the epilogue?
        Remember the epilogue in which the Master found a home - an old house, cozy like a quiet sunset, one where a peaceful tomorrow will look like a peaceful tomorrow, where friends gather on endless evenings and have leisurely conversations - the quintessence of happiness that is nowhere, never, not in what times are not possible. This takes a miracle. And since there are no miracles, the reward of the Master does not shine for any of us. Moments of quiet comfort are deceiving, they are unnatural and are not a reward for diligence, agreement, correct voting, shouts of "Hurray!" - everything is deception, there is no miracle, everything can go to dust in a second. So you don't have to get used to it. This is what the Sniper Saga is about, driven by the wind of history. From this point of view, I look at Timur's titanic activities and the history of our country.
        1. Lexus
          Lexus 27 October 2020 22: 15 New
          +4
          They should also insert hoses from their own gas masks into ... so that the air does not spoil.
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 27 October 2020 23: 07 New
        +4
        Not sure what the soldiers are, but what's the difference.
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 27 October 2020 23: 06 New
      +5
      Charming muzzle, if not close.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 27 October 2020 07: 14 New
    +8
    The corps of the Ottoman Janissaries, who inspired everyone with their fanaticism and military exploits, was almost completely destroyed - and those who will then bear this name will never be compared with these Janissaries.
    I mean, then the janissaries ceased to be positioned as the personal guard of the Sultan, but became just a branch of the army?
    Thank you, Valery!
    1. Icelord
      Icelord 27 October 2020 07: 54 New
      +4
      No, Anton remained the guard, probably the fighting qualities were not the same
    2. VLR
      27 October 2020 08: 16 New
      +7
      The newly recruited janissaries, whose number, moreover, was rapidly increasing - at the expense of quality, had the wrong fighting skills and did not have the fanaticism of the first janissaries.
    3. Undecim
      Undecim 27 October 2020 08: 59 New
      +7
      The question is - where did the author get this information and what is it based on?
      Or, as usual, he got carried away a little and "dramatized" the story.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 27 October 2020 09: 36 New
        +7
        I would not be so categorical. This can be a well-established opinion gleaned from any available source. Which does not deny its possible fallacy.
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 09: 52 New
          +7
          I would not be so categorical. This can be a well-established opinion gleaned from any available source. Which does not deny its possible fallacy.

          Anton, you know, you can't just take it and ... laughing drinks have a nice day, everyone!
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 27 October 2020 09: 59 New
            +5
            "Always be in a helmet is your destiny"
            (Mr. Mikhailov "The Ballad of the Jester")
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 10: 55 New
              +4
              "Always be in a helmet is your destiny"
              (Mr. Mikhailov "The Ballad of the Jester")

              This he said, I agree. yes Even though they didn't invent tales now ... wink
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 27 October 2020 11: 22 New
                +6
                Biographies of prominent personalities are always overgrown with a lot of details. For example, Pushkin's failed marriage to A. Olenina has three versions of the development of events.
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 11: 56 New
                  +6
                  For example, Pushkin's failed marriage to A. Olenina has three versions of the development of events.

                  Yeah, but fifty years later irresponsible personalities came up with tales, and according to the fourth version, as usual, a certain passing "Captain M." is to blame ... what I don't even doubt it, for some reason! laughing
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 27 October 2020 12: 04 New
                    +6
                    Harms is to blame for everything, for not including the captain in the number of characters. Otherwise, "irresponsible persons", fearing the accusation of plagiarism, would not have written the epic "The Life and Amazing Adventures of Captain Mikhailov."
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 12: 31 New
                      +6
                      Otherwise, "irresponsible persons", fearing the accusation of plagiarism, would not have written the epic "The Life and Amazing Adventures of Captain Mikhailov."

                      Taking into account the fact that Lexus and I on another branch are still "measuring ourselves against Sean Beans", it's time to write a different epic there ... laughing "The life of a noble knight with a listing of all his deeds and miracles." drinks
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 27 October 2020 12: 48 New
                        +7
                        You are there though Peter Penam measure, just do not throw me into the bush.
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 13: 11 New
                        +5
                        just don't throw me into the bush.

                        So the thorns bush is your home? laughing
                      3. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 27 October 2020 13: 13 New
                        +5
                        "Never before has Stirlitz been so close to failure" (C)
                      4. Lexus
                        Lexus 27 October 2020 13: 50 New
                        +6
                        "Stirlitz fired from two pistols in turn ..." (C) winked
                    2. Lexus
                      Lexus 27 October 2020 13: 35 New
                      +7
                      Kolya hibe spoiled, he will not turn away from us now. wink

  • Undecim
    Undecim 27 October 2020 10: 02 New
    +8
    I am not "categorically", I am interested in the source of "possible established opinion".
    1. Icelord
      Icelord 27 October 2020 10: 48 New
      +3
      Well, I haven't read this either, that's why I probably wrote it, but of course I haven't read everything, so maybe there are sources. Greetings Viktor Nikolaevich hi
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 27 October 2020 11: 43 New
        11
        Hello!
        Valery, he is an addicted author, sometimes, in order to "add drama", uses, let's say, historical legends.
        But he writes well, the pen is light.
        Something really bad with the "History" section. One article in two days. Was Samsonov sick?
        1. Lexus
          Lexus 27 October 2020 13: 57 New
          +9
          Something really bad with the "History" section.

          Was Samsonov sick?

          My regards hi
          I do not catch a direct causal relationship between these events.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 27 October 2020 14: 12 New
            10
            I do not catch a direct causal relationship between these events.
            Department "History"
            Head of Department: Alexander Samsonov
            1. Lexus
              Lexus 27 October 2020 14: 34 New
              11
              Everything is clear ... History was crying.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 27 October 2020 15: 11 New
                +6
                Wept History.
                Pedagogy too.
                1. Lexus
                  Lexus 27 October 2020 15: 19 New
                  +8
                  "The rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated." (FROM)

                2. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 15: 22 New
                  +6
                  "The rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated." (FROM)

                  The main thing is that he also does not write school textbooks ...
                3. Lexus
                  Lexus 27 October 2020 15: 26 New
                  10
                  Shut up! And then Soros will hear.
                4. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 27 October 2020 15: 48 New
                  +6
                  Quite simply, he has a pedagogical education.
                5. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 27 October 2020 15: 58 New
                  +6
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  The main thing is that he also does not write school textbooks ...

                  Greetings Nikolai, I helped my daughter with history (grade 7): I was horrified by the quality of the textbook, my wife could not master it, I don't understand anything in this clerical language, go figure it out yourself.
                6. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 16: 21 New
                  +5
                  I don't understand anything in this clerical language, go figure it out yourself.

                  I most willingly believe, Sergei! drinks
                7. Lexus
                  Lexus 27 October 2020 18: 33 New
                  +6
                  Surprising, no, just outrageous laughingthat, for example, Andersen's "Snow Queen" has not yet been banned. There, in fact, a whole heap of crimes, including the gravest ones, according to the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation, are described "in paints." wink drinks
    2. Lexus
      Lexus 27 October 2020 15: 12 New
      11
      "He appeared - not dusty." (FROM)
      "Light in sight." (FROM)
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 15: 16 New
        +7
        "He appeared - not dusty." (FROM)
        "Light in sight." (FROM)

        There they have already published the next Hyperboreans. Aggravation, s.
        .... Lesh, please - be careful! laughing drinks
        1. Lexus
          Lexus 27 October 2020 15: 24 New
          11
          "... and do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one ..." (C)
    3. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 15: 12 New
      +7
      Head of Department: Alexander Samsonov

      Viktor Nikolaevich, you still wanted songs? He has them ... wassat
      https://topwar.ru/176480-mamaevo-poboische-russkie-dralis-s-russkimi.html
      Here in your hat. hi "On the Kulikovo field the Russians fought with the Russians" - well, thank God, at least not with the Babylonians.
      That the Russians are the direct heirs of the ancient northern civilization, the Aryan Scythians and the legendary Hyperboreans.

      Don't thank me, my dear man! drinks
      I have a bad day today. Really, a few calls from unhealthy people. No. It seems, nevertheless - autumn. request I'm in such coincidences I just don't believe it ...
  • Icelord
    Icelord 27 October 2020 07: 47 New
    +6
    Very well written, thank you. But I myself am from Uzbekistan and know a little about the topic. Two questions arose, why does Bayezid have two eyes on the miniature? He seemed to have one-eyed, and how could Timur sit like that, since his youth he has a consequence of injury, a trophic ulcer of the knee, his leg did not bend, hence the nickname "iron lame"
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 27 October 2020 07: 56 New
      +5
      Igor! hi
      As we see in the miniature, Timur's right leg is practically straightened. Thus, the drawing corresponds to historical reality.
    2. VLR
      27 October 2020 07: 57 New
      +9
      These are not photographs. And the artists are hungry too,
      and customers may not "appreciate" and then the consequences are unpredictable. Again, you can blame everything on the notorious "I see him (even Timur, even Bayazid) like that". And even though Suvorov (St. Petersburg):


      Do you recognize Alexander Vasilyevich? smile
      1. Icelord
        Icelord 27 October 2020 08: 02 New
        +5
        Yes, I know this monument, I always inspired)), with Timur, that's okay, but two eyes instead of one, somehow too much, could, well, cover with a fringe on a turban, all the more so Bayazid wrote like that and walked. I wonder who the artist is, we can not be a contemporary, and not a Turk at all
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 October 2020 08: 26 New
          10
          Quote: Icelord
          I wonder who the artist is, we can not be a contemporary, and not a Turk at all

          Probably.
          With people in power, creative, though satisfying, but hard !!!
          I sincerely hope that for the first reliable versions of the portraits of the rulers, the artists were simply blackened and promised to break their legs! Otherwise, they could have acted more radically.
          I knew one aunt who in the Peter and Paul Fortress, five or six artists who work part-time with a pencil, took out their souls and pecked out their brains! And still they could not "satisfy" her! From the outside, laughter and sin - "theater of one actor" !!!
          By the way, is it possible to portray people in Islam?
          1. VLR
            27 October 2020 08: 39 New
            10
            "Is it possible to portray people in Islam?"

            The question is extremely interesting. Of course, it is impossible, therefore the portraits of the first Ottoman sultans were painted later. But then an exception was apparently made for those in power. The first sultan to receive a portrait during his lifetime was Mehmed II the Conqueror, I will probably write about this in one of the following articles of this cycle, because it is really interesting. So thanks for the idea smile
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 27 October 2020 10: 09 New
              +4
              It's difficult there in Islam, the Persians were portrayed with might and main, but the Turks are not
              1. Lexus
                Lexus 27 October 2020 14: 04 New
                +4
                Igor hi
                The Persians and Zoroastrians, sorry, did not cut it, and they preserved their shrines, and took the colors of the Iranian State flag from there.
                1. Icelord
                  Icelord 27 October 2020 14: 46 New
                  +2
                  Alexey hi ... Perhaps, but I think this is the difference between Shiites and Sunnis
                  1. Lexus
                    Lexus 27 October 2020 15: 01 New
                    +7
                    "Stop the thief!" (FROM)
                    1. Icelord
                      Icelord 27 October 2020 15: 17 New
                      +2
                      And on which branch, by the way, are you and Nikolai, Binami measured? I should go take a look
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 16: 21 New
                        +4
                        And on which branch, by the way, are you and Nikolai, Binami measured? I should go take a look

                        https://topwar.ru/176041-moreplavatel-odinochka-i-ploty-iz-vsego-chto-pod-rukami.html
                        Somewhere here .. in the middle ... compare with Anton. laughing By the way, it really looks like it! I say that I have spent time with him more than once. drinks only ours is more beautiful, smarter and more brutal! good
                      2. Lexus
                        Lexus 27 October 2020 18: 36 New
                        +5
                        Sorry, colleagues, I could not tear myself away from Mikhail. Excellent erudite and very interesting conversationalist. I recommend! good drinks
    3. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 09: 14 New
      +6
      And even though Suvorov (St. Petersburg) <....> Do you recognize Alexander Vasilyevich?

      The monument is interesting because it is the first monument to any person in Russia that began to be made even during the life of the one to whom it is dedicated... Moreover, the initiative for the installation came from Pavel Petrovich, who also approved the layout. soldier
      1. Lexus
        Lexus 27 October 2020 14: 06 New
        +7
        It's still good that we are not Turks. winked
    4. Van 16
      Van 16 27 October 2020 09: 30 New
      +5
      "And although Suvorov (St. Petersburg)"
      The monument to Peter the Great near the Mikhailovsky Castle is in the same line, although it began to be created (as far as I remember) during the life of Peter.
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 09: 43 New
        +6
        The monument to Peter the Great near the Mikhailovsky Castle is in the same line, although it began to be created (as far as I remember) during the life of Peter.

        The monument was sculpted by Rastrelli Sr. (father of the architect of the Winter Palace), but he stood for a long time in some kind of shed. During the life of Peter, a model was made, but they began to do it after his death.
        The model received the highest approval from Peter, but it was never cast in bronze. In 1725 the emperor died, and for the next ten years his heirs had no time for a monument. Even Rastrelli received payment for the work already done only in 1734!
        http://www.ipetersburg.ru/pamyatnik-petru-velikomu-u-mihaylovskogo-zamka/
        Paul, however, commanded to pull it out, install it and add the inscription: "Great-grandfather - great-grandson." The very same site around the monument then was an artificial island. drinks
        1. Van 16
          Van 16 27 October 2020 10: 16 New
          +6
          By the way, in the same St. Petersburg there is another good example "I see it this way" - a monument to Peter in Petropavlovka. It is positioned as "almost documentary"; original casts of the face and hands were used. Maybe so, but everything worked out together .. very doubtful from an aesthetic point of view. hi
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 11: 05 New
            +6
            It is positioned as "almost documentary"; original casts of the face and hands were used.

            In St. Petersburg, the most famous monument to Peter, made using a mask, is Shemyakin's work on the territory of the Peter and Paul Fortress. But this work of art did not collect good opinions about itself ... hi Yes, and it's difficult ... it's good to think about such a monument ... No.
            1. Van 16
              Van 16 27 October 2020 11: 07 New
              +5
              Yes, it's about him.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 11: 09 New
                +6
                Yes, it's about him.

                I first read your comment "in PetropavlovSke". drinks I thought that in that capital city there is also a monument to Peter - and wrote that he was not aware of him! request now corrected the comment! drinks yes, you are right, absolutely .. what epithets this "creation" did not collect ...
                1. Van 16
                  Van 16 27 October 2020 11: 27 New
                  +4
                  It happens))
                  By the way, sometimes they know how to do it, for example, I am very sympathetic to your "Petersburg Angel" in the Izmailovsky Garden. The one on the bench with a book and an umbrella. However, when I was there, the umbrella was gone ..
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 11: 54 New
                    +5
                    The one on the bench with a book and an umbrella. However, when I was there, the umbrella was gone ..


                    I'll have to go there, take a look .. There is also a psychedelic figure of a horse ..
                    In general, there is a very good Youth Theater on the Fontanka.
                    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 October 2020 12: 47 New
                      +5
                      Quote: Pane Kohanku
                      There's also a psychedelic horse figure ...

                      Is Nikolai "cooler" than this one on Wagner Street in Yekaterinburg?


                      laughing
                    2. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 13: 13 New
                      +5
                      Is Nikolai "cooler" than this one on Wagner Street in Yekaterinburg?

                      I don’t know, I wasn’t! But in Penza there is also an interesting monument to Meyerhold - "enters the wall". drinks
                    3. Lexus
                      Lexus 27 October 2020 14: 22 New
                      +4
                      "O times! O morals!" (FROM)
                      Well at least "passable", as a horse was not done.
                2. Lexus
                  Lexus 27 October 2020 14: 18 New
                  +7
                  And this one, too, it turns out, "during life" was built ... winked

              2. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 27 October 2020 13: 15 New
                +7
                In St. Petersburg there are many interesting monuments, sculptures ... And of the monumental ones, I personally like the monument to Alexander Nevsky on the square of the same name.
        2. Phil77
          Phil77 27 October 2020 16: 09 New
          +5
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          But this work of art did not collect good opinions about itself ...

          Aha! But modestly. And we have this monster in the middle of Moscow.

          laughing
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 27 October 2020 11: 26 New
        +5
        Nevertheless, the "sphinxes" and the monument to the first builders of St. Petersburg are good! And they stand in the right places.
        1. Van 16
          Van 16 27 October 2020 12: 23 New
          +5
          Without a doubt. And the Bronze Horseman? Masterpiece.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 October 2020 12: 29 New
            +6
            Throw in a photo of the sculpture of Kota Bayun and Pushkin from Orsk!
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 27 October 2020 12: 29 New
            +6
            I only spoke about Shemyakin. By the way, contemporaries perceived Klodt's horses "with hostility".
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 13: 27 New
              +6
              By the way, contemporaries perceived Klodt's horses "with hostility".

              EMNIP, he made hell knows how many, and some of them went as gifts to various important persons. In Strelna, on the banks of the Oryol pond, there were also two figures of these horses. Before the beginning of the Great Patriotic War.
              1. Lexus
                Lexus 27 October 2020 14: 24 New
                +5
                "There is such a profession ..." (C)
                On monuments to horses testicles "rub".
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 27 October 2020 14: 26 New
                  +3
                  On monuments to horses testicles "rub".

                  Viktor Nikolaevich once laid out a monument in the shape of a bull, EMNIP, in New York. They rub the bull there. fellow
                2. Lexus
                  Lexus 27 October 2020 15: 04 New
                  +7
                  "A woman who worked in the post office for thirty years glued the wallpaper in her apartment with her tongue." (FROM)
                3. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 27 October 2020 15: 16 New
                  +3
                  It's on Wall Street, near the New York Stock Exchange building. There is still a bear. The figures symbolize brokers, some are bullish, others bearish.
                4. Phil77
                  Phil77 27 October 2020 17: 09 New
                  +4
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  ... They rub the bull there.


                  Well, actually, the process itself. laughing
  • Icelord
    Icelord 27 October 2020 08: 54 New
    +5
    Yes, by the way Timur's dagger, either Indian or Persian. They are very similar without a liter, sometimes you cannot tell, especially in such a pattern. (who is talking about what, and lousy about the bath, and Igor about the pieces of iron laughing )
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 October 2020 11: 56 New
      +4
      Eh, Valery did not think to voice the legends about Timur's saber, now you have turned around!
      hi
      1. Icelord
        Icelord 29 October 2020 13: 10 New
        +1
        You know, Vladislav, I've been thinking and thinking all day. But I probably could, write a delusional article about Timur's saber, well, that is, completely delusional, so that everyone would be clear, complete nonsense. And at the same time such that a specialist will not suddenly refute. Still, knowledge of the topic helps a lot with falsification
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 29 October 2020 13: 54 New
          +2
          The presence of Timur's double-bladed weapon, striking like prayers to Allah !!!
          How is it - show-off is more expensive than money !!!
          1. Icelord
            Icelord 29 October 2020 18: 08 New
            +2
            I don’t remember Timur’s zulfiqar, and Bayazid’s, here is the Zulfiqar of Suleiman in Topkap, in Istanbul. Or they think he's Suleiman
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 30 October 2020 11: 56 New
              +2
              I don’t remember Timur’s zulfiqar, and Bayazid’s, here is the Zulfiqar of Suleiman in Topkap, in Istanbul. Or they think he's Suleiman

              saw a "two-headed" saber at an exhibition in the Hermitage dedicated to Potemkin in early March (before the restrictions). Like this one - I found a photo in the internet. Or maybe not she ...

              How functional was this blade shape?
              1. Icelord
                Icelord 30 October 2020 12: 05 New
                +1
                It is completely not functional, purely show-off, I think they did not even wear it as a front door, but just so that it was, like the prophet smile
                My greetings Nikolay hi
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 30 October 2020 12: 19 New
                  +2
                  My greetings Nikolay

                  Hello Igor! drinks
                  I think they didn't even wear it as a front door, but just so that it was, like the prophet

                  at the entrance hung like a device. To frighten the guest neighbors. laughing
                  1. Icelord
                    Icelord 30 October 2020 12: 26 New
                    +1
                    Something like this, after all, they were not at all with ordinary people, even very difficult ones. Nevertheless, it is very immodest to equalize with the prophet smile
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 30 October 2020 12: 40 New
                      +1
                      Nevertheless, it is very immodest to equalize with the prophet

                      People do not change. And power and wealth can be maddening. Even now, some ask themselves to depict themselves on church frescoes, or paint their own portrait in the form of a Hero of the Soviet Union ...
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 27 October 2020 09: 46 New
    +5
    Pay attention to the miniature of the Litsevoy Chronicle Code. XVI century "The struggle of Timur with Tokhtamysh". It clearly depicts the Siberian Russo-Scythians, inhabitants of Great Tartary ... laughing laughing lol
    1. Icelord
      Icelord 27 October 2020 09: 53 New
      +8
      I also noticed, but on the Persian it is no longer Russoaria wink
      1. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 27 October 2020 09: 58 New
        +7
        The Persians absolutely did not respect Tartary smile Probably they considered themselves to be her .. wink
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 27 October 2020 10: 02 New
    +6
    I liked this drawing more:
    1. Icelord
      Icelord 27 October 2020 10: 22 New
      +4
      And this is what is drawn? The murder of Pope Bayezid?
      1. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 27 October 2020 10: 41 New
        +4
        Well, yes, the legendary Milos Obilic kills the Turkish Sultan Murad .. Legendary in the sense that it is a legend. He was not on the Kosovo field, an unknown Serbian warrior struck the Turkish Sultan.
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 27 October 2020 10: 43 New
          +4
          And their sabers are wrong, they were 400 years later. wassat... I have two pieces
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 October 2020 12: 49 New
            +4
            Quote: Icelord
            And their sabers are wrong, they were 400 years later. wassat... I have two pieces

            So probably the drawing is a contemporary of sabers !!!
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 27 October 2020 15: 02 New
              +2
              Most likely ... if not later hi
        2. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 27 October 2020 13: 27 New
          +8
          Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
          legendary Milos Obilic kills Turkish Sultan Murad ..

          I remember the picture from the school history textbook. smile
          By the way, I recently read somewhere this version of the death of Murad, they say, in order to fight the invasion of the Gentiles, the "knightly" Order of the Dragon was created in Orthodox Serbia and neighboring Orthodox powers. This order was secret, that is, its members did not advertise their participation in it, and Milos Obilic was just one of those. So the assassination of the Sultan is a well-planned special operation of the Order of the Dragon, nothing more, nothing less. The order itself existed for more than a hundred years, and its last more or less known commander was the notorious Vlad the Impaler. smile
          The source from which I got this, not to say that it deserves special trust, this is me, as a historical tale. smile
          1. Daniil Konovalenko
            Daniil Konovalenko 27 October 2020 13: 31 New
            +8
            I read about this Order, I honestly don’t remember the source and probably well. There is such a mix and then they went on until today ... laughing I reached Tepes and began to read obliquely .. laughing
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 27 October 2020 13: 40 New
              +7
              Well, Valery loves to insert historical stories into articles here, so I also decided that ... smile
          2. Undecim
            Undecim 27 October 2020 14: 31 New
            +7
            in Orthodox Serbia and neighboring Orthodox powers, the "knightly" Order of the Dragon was created.
            The Order of the Dragon really existed. Created by the Hungarian king Sigismund I, according to various sources, either in 1387 or in 1408 on the model of the Order of St. George, founded by Charles I of Hungary in 1326. These orders were mainly for political purposes. The Order of the Dragon, in particular, was supposed to provide a foreign king with the support of the Magyar nobility by creating a small circle of loyalists. That is, it was not a knightly order in the classical sense.
            It was distributed in countries such as Bohemia, Hungary, Poland, principalities in the territory of present-day Romania and Albania. It later spread to Germany, Austria, Italy and Spain.
            Vlad Tepes was not his commander. The order fell apart with the death of its founder in 1433.
            There was nothing secret in his activities.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 27 October 2020 15: 16 New
              +5
              Well, Viktor Nikolaevich, they have debunked another legend ... smile
              Of course, I knew about Sigismund and his order, but he went to Milos Obilich and Sultan Murad. unfortunately it has nothing to do with it, so I didn't mention it. Or maybe they were different Orders - the Orthodox Order of the Dragon, secret and effective and Catholic - so-so order? smile
              But seriously, regarding the death of the Sultan, I adhere to the version according to which his headquarters was attacked during the battle by a detachment of Serbian heavily armed horsemen, and in the confusion the Sultan was killed, it seems to me the most probable.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 28 October 2020 16: 49 New
                +2
                But seriously, regarding the death of the Sultan, I adhere to the version according to which his headquarters was attacked during the battle by a detachment of Serbian heavily armed horsemen, and in the confusion the Sultan was killed, it seems to me the most probable.

                In a couple of years, someone (you understand) will write that it was the light-haired sailors on zebras that went into a suicidal attack ... laughing drinks
            2. Daniil Konovalenko
              Daniil Konovalenko 27 October 2020 15: 44 New
              +4
              And I do not argue. There are now a lot of myths around the Order of the Dragon, I don't even want to retell what they write about it.
        3. Undecim
          Undecim 27 October 2020 14: 09 New
          +8
          Well, yes, the legendary Milos Obilic kills the Turkish Sultan Murad .. Legendary in the sense that it is a legend. He was not on the Kosovo field, an unknown Serbian warrior struck the Turkish Sultan.
          The "Kosovo myth" is quite enough for a separate article.
          As for the death of Sultan Murad I, the only written source (correspondence between the Florentine Senate and the King of Bosnia) claims that the Sultan was killed by a group of Serbian knights.
          1. Daniil Konovalenko
            Daniil Konovalenko 27 October 2020 14: 14 New
            +7
            And they also remained unknown. I suppose one, otherwise there were more names, except for Milos, and it would have been more colorfully described.
          2. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 27 October 2020 15: 17 New
            +7
            Didn't read this comment of yours, wrote my own. Yes, this is the version.
  • Butchcassidy
    Butchcassidy 27 October 2020 14: 08 New
    +5
    Thank! Very informative
  • faterdom
    faterdom 27 October 2020 22: 54 New
    +2
    Eh, how important the heirs are ...
    Ottoman sultans died in battle, were captured, but managed to create a long-term empire.
    Tamerlane did not lose anything to anyone, only won, but his empire could exist only during his life.
    Such is the vertical - Timur - everyone, the rest - nobody!
    Although ... he is still a mysterious person. And socialism built, and showed utter cruelty, and was stubborn, and even created his own special forces, with mountain training (there was such a fact - he took a previously impregnable Georgian fortress on an almost sheer cliff, and not that he needed it for what - the guys were doing it, call back, relying on inaccessibility).
  • Petrik66
    Petrik66 28 October 2020 12: 41 New
    +1
    The author writes terrible things. Some ambassadors brought money and furs and assured Timur that they were not in business and they would not pull the oil for Tokhtamysh. But what about the appearance of the Mother of God in a dream? Or are the churchmen fooling us? Here they will throw lightning at the blasphemer ..... according to Viktor Nikolaevich.
  • 41st region
    41st region 1 November 2020 11: 57 New
    0
    Thank you for the article.