"Shot - forget": India completed tests of the third generation ATGM Nag

The Indian military has completed military tests of its own design Nag anti-tank guided missile. According to the Indian Ministry of Defense, the third-generation missile is ready for service.

According to the report, the final stage of testing took place on October 22, 2020 at the proving ground in Pohrana State of Rajasthan and was considered successful. A missile with a warhead was launched by tank from a regular mobile complex called Namica. The ammunition hit its intended target with high accuracy. Other details of the tests were not reported.

The NAG fired-and-forget missile is said to be designed to destroy heavily armored enemy vehicles in all weather conditions and at any time of the day. Its minimum range is 500 meters. The maximum range of fire reaches 4 km, "even in the harsh summer conditions of the desert, which is unique in its class", as stated in the Indian Ministry of Defense.

Final user trial of 3rd generation Anti Tank Guided Missile (ATGM) NAG was carried out today on 22 Oct 2020 at 0645 hrs from Pokhran range. The missile was integrated with the actual warhead and a tank target was kept at designated range. pic.twitter.com/GZ4oJWyNWs

- DRDO (@DRDO_India) October 22, 2020

The missile can hit a target both with direct fire and with an attack from above.

The development of the Nag has been carried out by the Defense Research and Development Organization of India since the second half of the 1980s. The munition homing system uses a high-definition thermal imager, completely developed and manufactured in India.

The main carrier of the new Namica complex will be a mobile platform created on the basis of the Sarath infantry fighting vehicle (licensed version of the BMP-2). The complex can carry up to six missiles.

Comments

[newcomer]

Indian gunsmiths have made serious progress. Brought the same, from the 80s.

[Lopatov]

Quote: newbie

Indian gunsmiths have advanced seriously

With the amount of technologies that have been purchased for them, such a speed of "development" is simply unacceptable.

[newcomer]

You see, my first reaction after reading it was also, say, close to yours. But after thinking, I remembered about the "log" in our eye. In terms of technology, I do not agree_ to develop and make a copy, you also need to be able to. We copied the air_air homing missile from the downed Phantom. If we seriously thought about it, then we would have brought "Autonomy" to mind, and it is not necessary to copy your own, its mine.

[Lopatov]

Quote: newbie

By technology, I disagree

You may not agree, but there is a FACT. India has received groundwork even for the fourth generation. From the USA.

[newcomer]

Well, if you are so knowledgeable, share the details: with what fright did the Yankees give someone promising developments?

[Lopatov]

Quote: newbie

With what fright did the Yankees give someone promising developments?

For 30 years India has been purchasing exclusively with technology transfer. Ours also gave them a lot

[newcomer]

I know about "DARDO" _ I'm talking about "30 years". The purchase of technologies, both advanced and used, is one thing, the transfer / sale of the next generation perspective is another. And that is why, I am sure that the transfer of not even technologies, but of developments_ to the Indians is unrealistic.

[Lopatov]

Quote: newbie

transfer / sale of next generation perspective _ other.

Nothing else".
For example, the Americans transferred technology to India for guns firing on a preliminary roll-out of the barrel. Under the contract for the M777.
Simply because they considered them too expensive for their army.

[newcomer]

Wait, there is no need to leave the topic. "M777" is not great, already, but let's get back to the transfer of the 4th generation ATGM developments, I'm very intrigued.

[Lopatov]

Quote: newbie

... "M777" is not super

But the systems that shoot when the barrel rolls out are super.

Quote: newbie

to the transfer of developments on ATGM 4th generation

To be honest, I don’t remember under which contract. But they conveyed exactly

[Kerensky]

But the systems that shoot when the barrel rolls out are super.

I am ashamed to ask - in what place? What does it do? Remember Durlyakher?

[Lopatov]

Quote: Kerensky

What does it give?

This gives, for example, a 122-mm self-propelled gun based on the Gazelle. Which will shoot without hanging, only with suspension disengaged, like "Grads".

Quote: Kerensky

Remember Durlyakher?

Better "Cornflower".
There, after all, there was enough movement of the massive shutter in order to reduce the recoil ...
And here the relative mass is even higher

It's just that it's still expensive, even at the current level of technology development.

[Kerensky]

This gives, for example, a 122-mm self-propelled gun based on the Gazelle. Which will shoot without hanging, only with suspension disengaged, like "Grads".

Then let's remember Kurchevsky and try on a Gazelle 305 mm. And what?!
He did not hesitate to develop casemates and slides.

Better "Cornflower".
There, after all, the movement of the massive shutter was enough to reduce the recoil.

In! Here at the root we can see! Cornflower + Merlin and we get a normal complex. And mobile enough to stick to a height, and scary enough for armored vehicles. If the commander of the crew will choose the position himself ...

[Lopatov]

Quote: Kerensky

Cornflower + Merlin and we get a normal complex.

What's the point?
"Merlin" can use orders of magnitude cheaper mortar
Unless, of course, your pockets are not torn from money, and you are not ready to shoot mines worth from 20 thousand dollars each in bursts

Quote: Kerensky

And mobile enough to stick to a height

??
Not enough.

Quote: Kerensky

Then let's remember Kurchevsky and try on a Gazelle 305 mm

And how many meters will the projectile fly?

[Kerensky]

Well, I believe that not only Merlin would be included in the Cornflower kit. In general, Vasilko's potential has not been revealed in a possible Indian theater of operations. There are also solid mountains and few roads along the gorges. That is, place it correctly and in advance, and it will show itself when repelling an infantry attack with the support of tanks. Well, Merlin has an advantage over any UAVs in the mountains ...

[Lopatov]

Quote: Kerensky

In general, the potential of Vasilka is not revealed

Just why is it expensive, if it can be cheap.
And the classic mortar is much more versatile.

[Kerensky]

Just why is it expensive, if it can be cheap.

Well, why fence Nag if you can Merlin. A tank in the mountains is generally a vulnerable target. It can be seen and heard from kilometers away, digging is a problem, bridges are a problem. He has nowhere to go from the gorge. The angles of declination of the weapon ... And the weapon itself is a cannon. No review. And he cannot attack in a deployed formation.
Well, even if the tanks break out into the operational space, refuellers will follow them through the passes, for they will immediately stand up.

And the classic mortar is much more versatile.

I agree on the contrary! It is in the mountains that the hinged trajectory will be the most effective. And the mortar is much easier to disguise.
Add MANPADS to Cornflower and you get a decent focus of defense. If you screw a dozen Merlins into the BC, you can disrupt the offensive.
Pulling a damaged tank off those roads is still a job under fire ...

[Lopatov]

Quote: Kerensky

Well, why fence Nag if you can Merlin.

Nag is orders of magnitude more versatile and provides more control.
Merlin is purely anti-tank thing

Quote: Kerensky

Give Cornflower MANPADS

MANPADS at the moment has only one function, arresting impudence. Not able to protect.

[the Saint]

Quote: Spade

India has received groundwork even for the fourth generation. From the USA.

"- Treason!" Shouted Malchish-Kibalchish.
- Treason! - shouted all his faithful boys. "©

[Lopatov]

Quote: el Santo

"- Treason!" Shouted Malchish-Kibalchish.
- Treason! - shouted all his faithful boys. "©

Business.
Indian orders are very profitable and "rich".
Because there is a transfer of technology, because there is corruption, because there is a constant war between groups of influence, often splashing out in the press.

[Lopatov]

Quote: newbie

then we would have already brought "Autonomy"

?
"Autonomy" is not a third-generation ATGM.

[newcomer]

You have decided to become "Mr. No" today. What nonsense are you talking about.

[Lopatov]

Quote: newbie

What nonsense are you talking about.

This is not "nonsense".
"Autonomy" does not even have a GOS. One "autopilot" Like Swedish NLAW or American SRAW Predator. Therefore, in fact, this is the maximum range of use. Only 350 meters.

This is not an ATGM, this is an improved grenade launcher

[newcomer]

Be kind, take a look at the performance characteristics, well, or at least download a photo, it can visually help to determine at least. I'll help you here: "... a head with an infrared homing system was developed, a variant with a radar homing system was also being worked out." And by the way, yes: it is positioned as a grenade launcher, but at the same time the Tulchans talk about an analogue of the Javelin. But this is not essential, but what is considered costly is expensive. Well I say, it's high time to bring it to mind.

[Lopatov]

Quote: newbie

Be so kind as to run your eyes on the performance characteristics

I ran. The range remains the same.

[newcomer]

You just looked at the range. Okay. Raw, raw "Autonomy", it is necessary to bring it up. You argue so zealously as if there is a subject for an argument. When and if the frozen project is brought to mind, we will argue.

[Lopatov]

Quote: newbie

You just looked at the range.

That is enough.

Quote: newbie

Raw, raw "Autonomy", it is necessary to bring it up.

Rather, the generals are not sure that an "under-ATGM" is needed to replace the good old grenade launcher.
By the way, not only ours. So far, only the British and American Marines have systems of this type.

[abc_alex]

Quote: newbie

Okay. Raw, raw "Autonomy", it is necessary to bring it up.

The objective reality is that the Tula did not really complete a single ATGM project. Barely cope with missiles for the "Pantsir". "Whirlwind" has not yet been put into production. "Hermes" has already become the talk of the town. So I wouldn't count.
Rather, in Kolomna they will combine a "hedgehog with a snake", MANPADS and ATGM ...

[Lopatov]

Quote: abc_alex

The objective reality is that the Tula did not really bring a single ATGM project

?
And the Cornet?

[abc_alex]

Quote: Spade

"Cornet"

To be fair, this is still a Soviet project and not made from scratch. The base was the Reflex tank rocket-projectile. Almost everything was taken from this complex. But you are right, I forgot "Cornet".

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Spade

This is not an ATGM, this is an improved grenade launcher

Yes, the range is not great! "Grenade launcher" range ...

Quote: Spade

"Autonomy" does not even have a GOS. One "autopilot" Like Swedish NLAW or American SRAW Predator.

But this is "bullshit"! In the technical specifications "Autonomy" indicated IK.GOS and, possibly (such as "options" ...) radar guidance (homing) ...

[Lopatov]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

In the technical specifications "Autonomy" indicated IK.GOS and, possibly (such as "options" ...) radar guidance (homing) ...

This is indicated on the website of "Bastion" Why is unknown. Explicit gag

I apologize, but what is the point of IR and even more radar head with a range of 350 meters?

There inertial-autopilot. Keeping the rocket on the trajectory. Well, or leading to the intended meeting point.

[Kerensky]

Why didn't the bourgeois Merlin fit? You can hang about six in the air. And normally the tanks gondosh into the upper hemisphere ...

[Lopatov]

Quote: Kerensky

Why didn't the bourgeois Merlin fit?

The price

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Spade

What is the point in IR and even more so radar head with a range of 350 meters?

I would formulate it this way: why such a range of 350 m in the presence of IK.GOS ?!

Quote: Spade

There inertial-autopilot. Keeping the rocket on the trajectory. Well, or leading to the intended meeting point.

In all the sources I know about "Autonomy", the same thing is mentioned: IK.GSN ... radar homing is optional ... I have not met a single source about "Autonomy" with an indication of a guidance system like NLAW, RSAW ... I can only assume that "Autonomy" is a concept, a test of the possibility of creating a Russian "javelin" ... Concept! Possibility ! It is from these "points of view" that the expediency of developing "Autonomy" can be considered! If we touch a little more on the topic of third generation missiles, then we can mention that the design bureaus that developed the "cornets", "attacks" tried to install thermal imaging (IR) GOS on their "products". Chief designers stated that the third generation missiles are expensive have limited functional application ... nothing else was known. It can be assumed that at that time the design bureau was working with an outdated element base, but the 3rd generation devices did not "go" at that time!

In the Tula Instrument Design Bureau in the mid-1990s, a small-sized portable third-generation ATGM "Autonomy" with an infrared homing system of the IIR (Imagine Infra-Red) type was developed, and a variant with a radar homing head was also being worked out. This complex is actually an analogue of the American portable ATGM Javelin. In 1993, for the first time information was issued on the "Autonomy" complex ...
The "Autonomy" complex combines the best characteristics of anti-tank grenade launchers with an unguided grenade - simplicity of design, high noise immunity, implementation of the "fire and forget" principle and guided anti-tank missile systems - a high probability of hitting, a powerful warhead. The complex ensures the destruction of tanks both with a direct hit and from above on the span through the use of different types of warheads. The missile control system has an angle stabilization autopilot with highly efficient gas-jet rudders interacting with the supersonic flow of the booster engine. The "Autonomy" complex was tested, but was not brought to the level of mass production.

CHARACTERISTICS

State of the proposal in 1993, in 2001 was in development.

Warhead (option 1):
- type tandem cumulative
- weight, kg 5,2
Warhead (option 2):
- type of type "shock core"
- weight, kg 8,5
Warhead (option 3):
- high-explosive fragmentation type
- weight, kg 8,5
Method of defeat:
- option 1 and 3 direct hit
- option 2 on top of the span

Autonomous control system and radar homing head or infrared seeker
Controls gas-jet steering wheels
Direct shot range, m 350
Average flight speed supersonic
Assembled missile length, mm:
- option 1 1000-1050
- option 2 and 3 1250
Max. case diameter, mm 152
Starting weight, kg:
- option 1 10
- option 2 and 3 15
Engine type solid propellant
TPK length (option 1), mm 1100
Complex weight in combat position, kg:
- option 1 14,5
- option 2 and 3 19,5
Where is the mention of a guidance system like NLAW, RSAW here?

[Lopatov]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

Where is the mention of a guidance system like NLAW, RSAW here?

Quote: Nikolaevich I

Autonomous control system

Quote: Nikolaevich I

The rocket control system has corner stabilization autopilot with highly efficient gas-jet rudders interacting with the supersonic flow of the booster engine.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Spade

Autonomous control system

1. This may be the most "common" INS, which is very common in missiles and not only!

Quote: Spade

The rocket control system has corner stabilization autopilot with highly efficient gas-jet rudders interacting with the supersonic flow of the booster engine.

2.Well, what? We are talking about autopilot, which is also often installed on missiles, including explosive missiles ...; in the short description of the autopilot some features of this type are indicated ... and that's it.
3. If we consider your opinion, then questions arise: 3.1. Why ammunition like SRAW, NLAW seeker (homing) ... moreover, 2 possible types! ?; 3.2 Both SRAW and NLAW are equipped with non-contact sensors: magnetic and optical (laser) ... in fact, mandatory for that type of guidance, trajectory to defeat ...! Where is the mention of such sensors in the description of "Autonomy"? In the description of guidance systems of the type (similar) SRAW, NLAW, there may be a reference to "logimeter" (a microcomputer connected to the INS, creating a "mathematical model" of the trajectory of an autonomous flight ...). Where is this "logimeter" in "Autonomy"?

[Lopatov]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

This may be the most "common" INS, which is very common in missiles and not only!

I remind you, the firing range is 350 meters

Quote: Nikolaevich I

We are talking about autopilot, which is also often installed on missiles, including explosive missiles.

... to launch the missile into the target area. But I remind you, the firing range is 350 meters

Quote: Nikolaevich I

If we consider your opinion, then questions arise: 3.1. Why ammunition like SRAW, NLAW seeker

There is no need. They are without GOS. Only with a radio altimeter and a magnetic sensor to hit targets on the fly. Apparently, what Karpenko called "GOS" is also doing this.

[Lopatov]

By the way, the source code, using which on the site of "Bastion", composed everyone:

As you can see, there is nothing about GOS,

[Nikolaevich I]

I thought about your reasons ... they are logical! By the way, I did not use "Bastion" as a source ... but all other sources mention "infrared and radar (!) Homing" ... (even in the "rigap" I respect ...) But I was also confused for a long time some "fad"! .The range is only 350 m .. (really, why, in this case, for example, radar (!!) homing ?! How were they going to use it? It's not clear!) ... But accept your argument about a guidance system like NLAW, RSAW was hampered by the lack of mention of the sensors characteristic of these systems: 1. magnetic; 2. optical (laser) ... The only "argument" is perhaps a description, albeit a very short one, of the "autopilot"! The description, albeit short, fits into a targeting system like NLAW, RSAW ... but nothing else! It remained to assume that "Autonomy" is just a concept (!), A test of the possibility of creating an ATGM of the "Javelin" type! But if in the "true" primary source there is no mention of homing, then your arguments cannot be refuted so easily ...

[halpat]

Quote: newbie

fired and forgotten

then ask the Hindu asker: Did you shoot ....?
and he: Nooo ... not me
forgot because

[newcomer]

You confused the copied someone else's comment with mine. But it's funny.

[Deniso]

It is one thing to shoot - forget, and quite another thing to shoot - hit. IMHO.

[APASUS]

Quote: newbie

Indian gunsmiths have made serious progress. Brought the same, from the 80s.

Let's wait anyway.

Integrated Guided Missile Development Program (a state program launched in 1980-1982 and aimed at creating a range of Indian guided missiles - ATGM, small-radius missiles, small and medium-range OTRK).

Another successful test, they only tested a thermal imaging sight for 10 years and this is another step. When the Indian Ministry of Defense purchases 2-3 thousand missiles, then we can hope that all the tests are over!

[Lesorub]

The development of the Nag has been carried out by the Defense Research and Development Organization of India since the second half of the 1980s. The ammunition homing system uses a high definition thermal imager, completely developed and manufactured in India

Laughter and sin)) development since 80s, Indians need to be more frank - interpretation of the Israeli spike.

[newcomer]

In fact, there is a rocket, the rest is lyrics.

[smart ass]

And in the Russian army there are many such complexes and how long have they been in service?

[Lesorub]

Quote: Clever man

And in the Russian army there are many such complexes and how long have they been in service?

No, but I want to believe that "they will take up their minds" and finally the understanding will come that it is necessary to move more progressively in the development of new weapons (this applies to ATGMs and UAVs, etc.)

[Captain Pushkin]

Quote: Lesorub

to believe "that they will take to their minds" and finally the understanding will come that it is necessary to move more progressively in the development of new weapons

I would like to believe, but remembering the history of the RPG-32, it begins to seem that in our system for the development and production of weapons there is another system - a very effective braking system, hidden for an outside observer.

[Boris ⁣ Shaver]

Quote: Captain Pushkin

it begins to seem that in our system for the development and production of weapons there is another system - a very effective braking system, hidden for an outside observer

We would like to think that someone sets a goal to make our military-industrial complex capable of producing mega-cool weapons for the army at an affordable price, and the army is just waiting to start ordering them happily with all available funds. In such a model, indeed, a crowd of enemy saboteurs would be needed, infiltrated into key posts in various ministries and departments, so that they, with all sorts of cunning joint intrigues, thwart these worthy plans.
And if we assume that no one sets himself the above-mentioned goals, and the army, represented by its state customers, does not show due interest in products that are good only because they are really the best and cost reasonable money at the same time - then no spies in the highest there is no need to invent echelons. But how can this be? It's very simple. Managers who have got our military-industrial complex in their clutches want to make money right today while they are in office, and for this there are much simpler and more reliable ways than honest work on honest products. And the state customer from defense is also a man and also wants money, and also today. And how do you earn them by buying honest products for honest money from an honest manufacturer?
What do you think, is there even a ma-a-a-aluseny chance that much is the way I described, and not the way we would like to think?
Although even this alignment does not exclude "representatives" of the interests of our potential adversaries in our higher echelons.

[Boris ⁣ Shaver]

Quote: Boris ⁣Razor

honest products for honest money from an honest manufacturer

Even if we do not consider the notorious component in terms of the honesty of transactions concluded for public money, there are still a lot of destructive moments that are not obvious to a person not privy to modern "management".
For example, a new gender, an "effective" manager to the core, considering a certain direction of the organization's activities sees that today there are no significant orders for it. He does not care about maintaining the competencies of the organization, which may be needed sometime in the future, when such orders appear again, he wants everything to work "effectively" today. As a result, a decision is made to close the direction, specialists quit, the most valuable documentation is taken to the landfill, and the area occupied by the division is stupidly rented out to the next traders in Chinese goods. That's it, no one needs to pay salary, money for rent is dripping, he is a modder.
And there can be any number of similar, “purely market” moments when momentary “efficiency” wins. As a result, the country loses competence, loses production, loses its future.

[Captain Pushkin]

Quote: Boris ⁣Razor

Managers who have got our military-industrial complex in their clutches want to make money right now while they are in office,

Quote: Boris ⁣Razor

the state customer from defense is also a man and also wants money, and also today. And how do you earn them by buying honest products for honest money from an honest manufacturer?

Quote: Boris ⁣Razor

this alignment does not exclude "representatives" of the interests of our potential adversaries in our higher echelons

Alas, while corruption devours the state in all its institutions, both schemes work quite successfully.
In general, there is a conflict of personal interests and interests of the State.
RPG-32 is a particular example. Alas, the name for such examples is legion.
Without an effective system of strict control over the activities of officials at all levels, no declaration of good wishes and great goals will lead to any significant positive results.

[Boris ⁣ Shaver]

Quote: Clever man

in <...> rf

Are the capital letters over? Keep:
"RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR"
"FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF"

Contact if that.

[Cottodraton]

Not so long ago they tested a promising rocket with us, then they classified everything ... Therefore, no one (and rightly so!) Knows how much and what

[Sergei 777]

All NATO, China, India have the 3rd generation. And the Russian defense industry is still silent. Stole at least ...

[OgnennyiKotik]

Quote: Sergey 777

All NATO, China, India have the 3rd generation. And the Russian defense industry is still silent.

Wait a little, now they will explain that the 3rd generation ATGM is simply not needed by us. As well as drone UAVs. All this is against the Papuans.

[Lopatov]

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

that the 3rd generation ATGM is simply not needed by us.

He's not "perfect". Not a wunderwaffe, a conventional niche weapon. Moreover, with the growth of "electronic" protection of tanks, the importance of this generation will greatly decrease.

Quote: OgnennyiKotik

All this is against the Papuans.

Practice has shown that it is definitely not advisable to use complexes of the 3rd generation "against the Papuans".
For example, the Americans are clearly and unequivocally betting on a semi-active laser.

[Warrior-80]

Well, tell me where the Jewels fought, as they say, where the s300 and s-400 were used, although for them this is justified because aviation is now rarely used in view of small conflicts, in Karabakh, for example, old proven ATGMs and our various modifications are fighting everywhere, I don't saw tanks in a real clash struck by Jewelin. Of course, I do not dispute its possible effectiveness, but I read about its big drawbacks

[Clear]

Quote: Sergey 777

All NATO, China, India have the 3rd generation. And the Russian defense industry is still silent. Stole at least ...

Guys, I have never been a military man, but in August, at Army 2020, they discussed the promising Hermes anti-tank complex, is that wrong?
The developers claim that it is capable of hitting armored vehicles at a distance of up to 100 kilometers.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Clear

Guys, I have never been a military man, but in August, at Army 2020, they discussed the promising Hermes anti-tank complex, is that wrong?

no no no! not at all!
firstly not a copy from the American. secondly, there is no fashionable webcam like the Israeli. thirdly, the most important thing (!!!), there is no glass in the front!
any local expert will tell you unambiguously that it is not at all the third generation

[Clear]

Quote: SanichSan

the most important thing (!!!), there is no glass in the front

Quote: SanichSan

secondly, there is no fashionable webcam like Israeli

and why is all this if "Hermes" and so

Quote: OrangeBigg

He shoots with the same accuracy day and night.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Clear

and why all this, if "Hermes" and so

Well, how to say .. there is a certain circle of people who have all foreign causes an orgasm by the fact that foreign. as far as expedient, reasonable, effective, all this is no longer important for them

[Clear]

Quote: SanichSan

Quote: Clear

and why all this, if "Hermes" and so

Well, how to say .. there is a certain circle of people who have all foreign causes an orgasm by the fact that foreign. as far as expedient, reasonable, effective, all this is no longer important for them

So they still launch this orgasm immediately into mass production.
The demand is crazy, there is no end to those willing!

[shahor]

Quote: SanichSan

on "Army 2020" discussed the promising anti-tank complex "Hermes", is that not it?

It `s that. It is planned to complete the discussion by 2027. The discussion will have no analogues in the world!

[Orange bigg]

Hermes is in a slightly different niche.

The maximum speed is 1300 meters per second. Despite the caliber similar to the MLRS, the tasks here are completely different. It is assumed that in the troops, this weapon will take a place between artillery and operational-tactical complexes.


The strong point of "Hermes" is the range of up to one hundred kilometers. He shoots with the same accuracy day and night. According to the developers, the complex is designed primarily for the destruction of air defense facilities, command posts and communication centers, operational-tactical missile systems and multiple launch rocket systems. The Hermes is especially effective against small-sized single targets such as tanks, armored personnel carriers or infantry fighting vehicles.


“Multiple launch rocket systems hit areas with corresponding destruction,” the KBP representative explains to RIA Novosti. “Hermes is very accurate: the maximum deviation of the missile from the target is only half a meter.

Hermes guidance system.

High accuracy is provided by an advanced guidance system. First, inertial radio navigation works - with the help of a satellite, then the homing head is connected.

As for target designation, the Hermes crew has several options. Objects on the battlefield can be illuminated by means of the equipment of the ground station. There is also a remotely piloted unmanned aerial vehicle with an optical-electronic system that transmits the coordinates of the target, marks it on the map and illuminates it at a distance of up to five kilometers.

https://ria.ru/20200831/raketnyy-kompleks-1576437734.html

[Sanichsan]

Quote: OrangeBigg

Hermes is in a slightly different niche.

yes, but why do we need some kind of Spike, and even more so Nag if Hermes, being in a different niche, perfectly covers the combat missions assigned to Spike and Nag, also supersonic?

[Lopatov]

Quote: SanichSan

perfectly covers combat missions

Doesn't really overlap.
Rather, apparently, it does not overlap at all. Rather, it duplicates Krasnopolya-type shells
So it goes.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Spade

Rather, apparently, it does not overlap at all. Rather, it duplicates Krasnopolya-type shells
So it goes.

and what is wrong? will not hit the tank? will fall. from above can not? can. what remains? there is no fashionable webcam and a glass in front?
maybe it is much more expensive than spike and naked? I doubt something
so what's the problem? is that it is supersonic? so this is an advantage

[Lopatov]

Quote: SanichSan

and what is wrong?

This is not "fire-forget" For it requires target illumination.

Which clearly points to two huge problems:
The first is the safety of the backlighting system. A drone, a person with an LCD or a machine with an LCD on a tower
Second, they learned to deal with such ammunition even during the Soviet era. And systems like Shtore are currently being produced even by Turkey and Poland.

Conclusion "Klevok-S" (export name "Hermes") is currently in its pure form "anti-Papuan" complex.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Spade

This is not "Shot and forget" For it requires target illumination.

Which clearly points to two huge problems:
The first is the safety of the backlighting system. A drone, a person with an LCD or a machine with an LCD on a tower

stop stop stop but this crap in the photo at the beginning of the article does not need to direct anything? do not need to get out in line of sight? need to. as a result, substituting the whole complex instead of the gunner, which has much more possibilities for camouflage, or a drone that is incomparably cheaper. not? Better to burn this thing with 8 missiles?

Quote: Spade

Second, they learned to deal with such ammunition even during the Soviet era. And systems like Shtore are currently being produced even by Turkey and Poland.

uh ... dynamic protection too, so what? cumulative ammunition has become useless? Or do you assume that since the last century, guidance has not been developed?

Quote: Spade

Conclusion "Klevok-S" (export name "Hermes") is currently in its pure form "anti-Papuan" complex.

questionable statement given the above reasons if only in terms of price

[Lopatov]

Quote: SanichSan

but this crap in the photo at the beginning of the article does not need to direct anything?

Necessary.
But to keep the target in the crosshair all the time of the flight, no.

Quote: SanichSan

as a result, substituting the whole complex instead of the gunner

Not necessary. If they copied "Spike", then it can shoot from the PDO, and the target lock with a rocket can be done after launch, in flight.

Quote: SanichSan

Or do you assume that since the last century, guidance has not been developed?

Not enough to aim at a target that is not illuminated by a laser.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Spade

Necessary.

woo ...

Quote: Spade

But to keep the target in the crosshair all the time of the flight, no.

well it is clear. the question is how much to hold the target to capture before launch.

Quote: Spade

Not necessary. If they copied "Spike", then it can shoot from the PDO, and the target lock with a rocket can be done after launch, in flight.

you know .. for these somersaults the Lancet is both cheaper and more compact and more convenient Nag and Spike are not like a drone, but a rocket.

Quote: Spade

Not enough to aim at a target that is not illuminated by a laser.

Yes, the campaign is already so much. there and on the radar point. in any case, so it is written. if they can direct from the field reconnaissance complex, to which there are no technical obstacles, then generally gorgeous
thanks for the comments

[Lopatov]

Quote: SanichSan

the question is how much to hold the target to capture before launch.

Zero.

Quote: SanichSan

The lancet will be cheaper and more compact and more convenient

And the efficiency is much lower

Quote: SanichSan

Yes, the campaign is already so much. there and on the radar point. in any case, so it is written.

No.

[abc_alex]

Quote: SanichSan

yes, but why do we need some kind of Spike

Then, they have not yet come up with an algorithm for automatically recognizing a tank against the background of a burning house. Or a tank behind a fence. Only a person can correctly correlate the images of objects. And instantly. Therefore, the concept of "Spike" is promising and is not taken from the ceiling by the Israelis. Evil tongues claim that immigrants from the USSR brought it there.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: abc_alex

Only a person can correctly correlate the images of objects. And instantly. Therefore, the concept of "Spike" is promising and is not taken from the ceiling by the Israelis.

uh .. Lancet? by the way much cheaper spike

[Lopatov]

Quote: SanichSan

uh .. Lancet?

Let's just say "castrated Spike".
Reduced opportunities. The speed is one and a half to two times lower (which means it is easier to shoot down), of all control modes, only one remains - direct control (which means that it is much more vulnerable to REP)

[abc_alex]

Quote: Spade

Quote: SanichSan

uh .. Lancet?

Let's just say "castrated Spike".
Reduced opportunities. The speed is one and a half to two times lower (which means it is easier to shoot down), of all control modes, only one remains - direct control (which means that it is much more vulnerable to REP)

First, the Lancet is a UAV. And Spike is an ATGM. The lancet can hover in the air for up to 40 minutes. It just has an X-shaped plumage, nevertheless it is NOT a ROCKET.
Secondly, the longest range versions of Spike are 8 km. This is if we talk about options that do not require external illumination of targets. The maximum range of the Lancet is 40 km.
Thirdly, the speed of the lancet is less than one and a half to two times, but 5-6 times.
Fourthly, it is not easier to shoot it down - it has a propulsion system that practically does not emit in the IR range. Unlike Spike, who is a rocket.
Fifth, the issue of sensitivity to REB is complex. Spike's resistance to REB is determined not by the type of control, but by the fact that it drags the fiber-optic cable through which it is controlled. Therefore, the range is not 40 km. A compromise is inevitable here. We want a long range - we need protection against electronic warfare.
And sixth. The lancet weighs 12 kilos with a warhead weight of 3 kilos. A long-range Spike weighs up to 70 kilos.

What am I bothering about? It's just that these are completely different types of weapons.

[Lopatov]

Quote: abc_alex

The lancet can hover in the air for up to 40 minutes.

Can.
But a more or less normal enemy will certainly hit this. Moreover, using the analogue of the "Repellent", it will calculate the location of the control point. Well, it will destroy operators and control equipment to the heap.

Quote: abc_alex

Secondly, the longest range versions of Spike are 8 km

25 km, Spike-NLOS

Quote: abc_alex

Fourthly, it is not easier to shoot it down - it has a propulsion system that practically does not emit in the infrared range.

Like those drones that regularly shoot down in the vicinity of the Khmeimim base

[abc_alex]

Quote: Spade

But a more or less normal enemy will certainly hit this. Moreover, using the analogue of the "Repellent", it will calculate the location of the control point. Well, it will destroy operators and control equipment to the heap.

More or less "normal opponent" and Spike will not allow to bring him to his positions. And, honestly, 500 km / h Spike for a "normal enemy" is also not God knows what speed.
By the way, the "Repellent" has a detection range of the radiation source of 30 km. And the "Lancet" has a control distance of up to 40. :)
In fact, the stability and security of the control channel is a separate issue. This is not a sentence, I assure you. Most of the UR is controlled by radio.

Quote: Spade

25 km, Spike-NLOS

I made a reservation: "This is if we talk about options that do not require external illumination of targets." The model you specified requires third-party target illumination.

Quote: Spade

Like those drones that regularly shoot down in the vicinity of the Khmeimim base

Electric motor. And the drones from Khmeinim, judging by the photos and videos from there, have an internal combustion engine.

[Lopatov]

Quote: abc_alex

More or less "normal opponent" and Spike will not allow to bring him to his positions.

What will he do? Will she complain to the UN?

Quote: abc_alex

500 km / h Spike

??
He has no such speeds. There are about 150-180

Quote: abc_alex

By the way, the "Repellent" has a detection range of the radiation source of 30 km

And who said that analogs will have the same number, or less? Iranian UAV operators have already got rid of the Israelis.

Quote: abc_alex

The model you specified requires third-party target illumination.

What for?
The rocket flew into the target area, the operator detected the target, made a lock, the rocket hit the target.

Quote: abc_alex

And the drones from Khmeinim, judging by the photos and videos from there, have an internal combustion engine.

And electro too. Which heats up not less than the internal combustion engine.

[abc_alex]

Quote: Spade

What will he do? Will she complain to the UN?

Will cover with artillery fire.

Quote: Spade

He has no such speeds. There are about 150-180

Translate m / s to km / h - will be. :)

Quote: Spade

And who said that analogs will have the same number, or less? Iranian UAV operators have already got rid of the Israelis.

And who said that analogs will have more? And how to shoot 40 km? Other UAVs? And on the other side there is also an interceptor-locator.

Quote: Spade

The rocket flew into the target area, the operator detected the target, made a lock, the rocket hit the target.

I do not know why. So the designers did it. Maybe the operator is late. Or maybe the horizon just interferes with finding the "target area" ...

Quote: Spade

And electro too. Which heats up not less than the internal combustion engine.

Come on! For starters, the electric motor has no exhaust, which means there is no heat trace. And most importantly, you have not forgotten that the internal combustion engine is a heat engine. Its efficiency is determined by the difference in temperature of the working fluid. And the efficiency is 30-35%, the rest goes into heat.
Efficiency of the electric motor - 80-90%

[alexmach]

Guys, I have never been a military man, but in August, at Army 2020, they discussed the promising Hermes anti-tank complex, is that wrong?

This is something that has been discussed for 15 years already, and all this time it is "promising". Shipunov died and there was no one to push his brainchild further. Well, most likely this is "not that" because "I don't shoot with radars"

[Kerensky]

All NATO, China, India have the 3rd generation. And the Russian defense industry is still silent. Stole at least ...

We have the Vampire shot and it completes any existing and future tanks at real distances.

[IS-80_RVGK2]

When will we finally gash such pots. And, of course, we need drones.

[newcomer]

Borisov says the deadline is 25g. The first will receive the Airborne Forces.

[Lesorub]

Quote: IS-80_RVGK2

When will we finally gash such pots. And, of course, we need drones.

Probably somewhere in the research institute, these ATGMs are being developed, maybe in the near future we will have a rocket with the principle of "fire and forget".

[newcomer]

"Somewhere in a research institute", "Autonomy" is gathering dust.

[garri-lin]

Autonomy is an ancient replica of the ancient Javelin. And even with a shitty range. It was relevant in the early XNUMXs. And very outdated. If you do then do something completely new. Desirable modular range from small wearable to large transportable.

[newcomer]

So wait, who can argue: finishing a project does not mean starting production of old products. The main thing here is that we own an infrared and radar guidance system, for an ATGM then.

[garri-lin]

Honestly speaking, Russia does not need to bother with the 3rd generation. Lagging behind, being late was not considered necessary. There is no use to catch up. If you start work, then immediately on the fourth generation. But who can predict all the requirements for the fourth? This is where you need to start.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Lesorub

These ATGMs are being developed, maybe we will have a missile with the principle of "fire and forget" in the near future.

Currently, about 3-4 types of 3rd generation ATGMs are being developed ...

[abc_alex]

Quote: Lesorub

Probably somewhere in the research institute, these ATGMs are being developed, maybe in the near future we will have a rocket with the principle of "fire and forget".

There are plenty of such missiles. Worse with fire-and-hit rockets. Here a lot of problems arise at once. Which one way or another lead to an increase in prices without an increase in combat effectiveness. Even in the United States, they do not risk massively introducing Javelins into the troops. For it is expensive. To bombard the enemy with disposable thermal imagers is, of course, a passion like Hollywood, but the price of a banquet is prohibitive.

[yfast]

Quote: Lesorub

Probably somewhere in the research institute these ATGMs are being developed, maybe in the near future we will have a missile for ATGM with the principle of "fire and forget."

To do this, you need to be able to make good microcircuits in your factories. There is no certainty that the power of the current Elbrus will be enough to process the picture for "forgot to shoot".

[The leader of the Redskins]

Not "Javelin", of course (larger, apparently), but still ... I will not mention our military-industrial complex, otherwise they will again be called a pessimist.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

I will not mention our military-industrial complex, otherwise they will again be called a pessimist.

our Hermes? and who will name it? Indians or local liberal communities?

[Thrifty]

The production licenses must be taken from the Indians for this ATGM, and from the Iranians, for the attack drone, since they themselves are not able to make such types of weapons and weapons.

[Viktor Sergeev]

Shot, forgot, I wonder where the rocket went?

[A. Privalov]

While the trial is on, the Indian Ministry of Defense has placed an urgent order at the Rafael facilities for a batch of Israeli anti-tank missile systems (ATGM) Spike.
The order is small, it includes only 12 launchers and 240 missiles.

[barin]

Quote: A. Privalov

urgent order for a batch of Israeli anti-tank missile systems (ATGM) Spike.
The order is small, it includes only 12 launchers and 240 missiles

Are you hinting that there were some difficulties, and it was required to refer to the original source?

[A. Privalov]

Quote: barin

You hint that there were some difficulties, and it was required to refer to the original source

No hints. Factual material only.

[Pandiurin]

For a distance of 4 km.
Isn't the wunderwafe too healthy?

[Alien From]

This reality will have to be accepted. Maybe they didn’t reach it with our own mind, maybe they bought it. There is a result.

[Freedim]

Protection against such missiles has long been invented .. true one-time ... Meet: BGK - a large tar collider http://vashkevich.com/storage/livejournal/collider.jpg

[Kerensky]

Colleagues, employees, associates !! Have you seen a tank 4 kilometers away? !! To amaze you must see.

[Jacket in stock]

Why don't we have such a wunderwafele?
It's very simple, there is nothing to do. Production of microcircuits, infrared sensors, powerful transistors for radars at such a level that the "brains" occupy the entire volume of the rocket. And so we get the same "autonomy" that flies 350 meters, because there is simply no place for the engine.
And the production of components is high tech.
Just disassemble the bourgeois and assemble the same on the knee. You need to know how, you need to know from what. You need to have equipment on what. And most importantly, to be able to do all this. And this is an industry.
You must have it.
Or buy, like the Indians, or invent your own, since they don't sell us. And this time. These are people. This is money,
A lot of money. Very smart people. A lot of time.
Because people need to be taught. Who will teach? The head of government advised teachers to go into business.
Then these people have to do research. But from 1991 to 2010 they did not give money for R&D.
Then they gave it, but immediately on OCD, but on what basis? There were no research projects. So they are pulling out the Soviet groundwork from the dusty archives.
Then all this needs to be done, and the equipment is scrapped, the buildings are leased. The staff has long been fired and, at best, is building garages.
It is easier for the Hindus, they are ready to spend both money and time. They sent students to America / England / France ... then they bought ready-made technologies there, then the engineers trained there tried to reproduce these technologies on machines bought there.
Yes, it took 30 years, but this is an objective reality, that's why technologies are called high.
For some reason, we hope that all this can be done faster, why?

[strelokmira]

At least someone wrote on the case, but really the backlog of electronics has been critical for a long time, as a result, all technological innovations such as ATGMs of the 3rd generation, AFARs for fighters, BLPA in single copies assembled on foreign components and a promise of 202 ... / 203 ... put it all into series, I swear by my mother

[Jacket in stock]

Quote: strelokmira

in single copies collected on foreign components

That's right, until 2014 there was a fashion to use foreign components. On the one hand, this has given fabulous progress.
On the other hand, it ended quickly.
For it was necessary not only to buy components, it was necessary to buy factories for their production. Better yet, the factories for the production of these factories.
That sama basis about which Marx and Lenin wrote and about which they told all Soviet schoolchildren.
But Lenin is now out of fashion, and it seems that not everyone went to school.
For example, even China, which has advanced far ahead, fell into the same trap. "Almighty" Huawei has learned to develop its processors. Very good processors. But he never learned to do them himself. And that's it, Uncle Sam turned off the switch and the processors ran out.

[barin]

Well ... Now also in India.

[Kerensky]

The main carrier of the new Namica complex will be a mobile platform created on the basis of the Sarath infantry fighting vehicle (licensed version of the BMP-2). The complex can carry up to six missiles.

And in the photo he has 8 mines. In two footcloths?