Military Review

Turkish edition: Russian "Pantsiri" showed their helplessness in front of Turkish UAVs

240
Turkish edition: Russian "Pantsiri" showed their helplessness in front of Turkish UAVs

Turkey believes that their unmanned aerial vehicles are effective even against Russian air defense systems. Therefore, Moscow has to develop new weapon to combat them.


The Turkish edition of Haber 7 writes about it.

The publication believes that the Russian "Shells" showed their helplessness in front of Turkish UAVs in Syria and Libya. It is reminded of the destroyed ZRPK of Marshal Haftar, delivered to that of the UAE. And "the last handful of land" on the air defense systems of the Russian Federation, according to Turkish media, was thrown by the Azerbaijani military in Nagorno-Karabakh. However, for some reason, it is not mentioned how many "Armor" destroyed Turkish drones.

Therefore, in Russia they decided to develop a system specializing exclusively in the fight against attack drones. This development, created by NPK "Design Bureau of Mechanical Engineering", was named "Gibka-S", - reports a Turkish media resource.



It is an automated short-range mobile system designed to destroy low-flying targets. The Gibka-S launcher is capable of simultaneously launching four missiles.

The complex is a lightweight anti-aircraft type structure, which is placed on the chassis of a 9A332 combat vehicle based on the Tiger armored vehicle. The vehicle is capable of carrying missiles, related equipment and operators.

Tests of the new air defense system were completed in December last year, and next year it will be put into service with the Russian army.
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  1. neri73-r
    neri73-r 22 October 2020 09: 41
    44
    Tell this to the guys from Khmeimim! We found that to compare Pantsir and Bendka, completely two different machines in terms of capabilities.
    1. Professor
      Professor 22 October 2020 09: 57
      -46 qualifying.
      Quote: neri73-r
      Tell this to the guys from Khmeimim! We found that to compare Pantsir and Bendka, completely two different machines in terms of capabilities.

      ... and why are you then trying to compare airplanes made on the knee by miners with tractor drivers with industrially manufactured drones used in Syria, Libya and Azerbaijan?
      1. Vol4ara
        Vol4ara 22 October 2020 10: 03
        56
        Strange logic, the shells turned out to be ineffective, so here's a flexible, in fact, a man-portable air defense system on wheels ...
        1. lucul
          lucul 22 October 2020 10: 41
          -20 qualifying.
          Strange logic, the shells turned out to be ineffective, so here's a flexible, in fact, a man-portable air defense system on wheels ...

          This is your strange logic)))
          Because most missiles are homing, which are aimed at a hot engine. And there are drones with an electric motor - why should such missiles be guided there, the electric motor does not heat up?
          That is why, on Gibka S, there are most likely missiles from a different seeker.
          By the way, it would not hurt to install missiles not only with infrared seeker on our Igla MANPADS ...
          1. Vol4ara
            Vol4ara 22 October 2020 11: 18
            29
            Quote: lucul
            Strange logic, the shells turned out to be ineffective, so here's a flexible, in fact, a man-portable air defense system on wheels ...

            This is your strange logic)))
            Because most missiles are homing, which are aimed at a hot engine. And there are drones with an electric motor - why should such missiles be guided there, the electric motor does not heat up?
            That is why, on Gibka S, there are most likely missiles from a different seeker.
            By the way, it would not hurt to install missiles not only with infrared seeker on our Igla MANPADS ...

            And how will she get the tractor at 8500m with her 3500m? Have you ever wondered why wasps were not effective?
            1. lucul
              lucul 22 October 2020 11: 22
              -20 qualifying.
              And how will she get the tractor at 8500m with her 3500m? Have you ever wondered why wasps were not effective?

              And your planes no longer fly? )))
              On the Su-25, you can just cram a bunch of small-sized missiles to combat UAVs. Yes, just stupidly, the operator's communication channel with the UAV was tracked, and the ACS / MLRS fired at the operator and that's it)))
              1. Vol4ara
                Vol4ara 22 October 2020 11: 46
                21
                Quote: lucul
                And your planes no longer fly? )))

                What does flexibility have to do with it? Or has Ostap already suffered?
                Quote: lucul
                Yes, just stupidly, the operator's communication channel with the UAV was tracked, and the ACS / MLRS fired at the operator and that's it)))

                Who tracked, maybe HAKIRS !!! 111?
                1. lucul
                  lucul 22 October 2020 11: 54
                  -8
                  Who tracked, maybe HAKIRS !!! 111?

                  Pfff is not a problem, for the Russian army)))
                  1. Vol4ara
                    Vol4ara 22 October 2020 13: 29
                    +6
                    Quote: lucul
                    Who tracked, maybe HAKIRS !!! 111?

                    Pfff is not a problem, for the Russian army)))

                    I have no doubt that the Russian army will destroy any HAKIR! who will be caught in the trench
                    1. Alex777
                      Alex777 22 October 2020 17: 23
                      +4
                      The comrade is an optimist. But he knows nothing about air defense. Absolutely.
                      Or skillfully pretends ... wink
                    2. Captain Pushkin
                      Captain Pushkin 22 October 2020 22: 01
                      0
                      Quote: Vol4ara
                      the Russian army will destroy any HAKIR! who will be caught in the trench

                      Even in the trench, even in the outhouse ... There will be no mercy for him - they will force Tetris to fold and nothing but Tetris ...
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 22 October 2020 11: 57
                32
                Quote: lucul
                And your planes no longer fly? )))

                And what have the planes? We are talking about a specific air defense complex.
                The Turks write in black and white that the "Gibka-S" is supposedly designed to deal with attack UAVs, against which the "Pantsir" was ineffective. But at the same time, the range of operation of the "Gibki-S" is half that of the operation of the onboard weapons of the very same Turkish attack UAVs. belay

                In fact, "Gibka-S" is a "moral support air defense system". He superbly collected all the shortcomings of MANPADS and wheeled chassis: the short range of the missile defense system and the low power of the warhead + high visibility and limited maneuverability (compared to the wearable complex).
                The wearable MANPADS compensates for its shortcomings by extremely low visibility and "good presence" (in Afghanistan, they were dragged even to mountain peaks). As a result, the plane / helicopter may not even know that it has entered the missile launch radius - the calculation is detected after the launch. So it is almost impossible to hit a wearable MANPADS before entering its affected area. And choosing a safe route is also extremely difficult: MANPADS can be everywhere.
                As soon as the MANPADS is placed on the chassis, you can immediately forget about stealth and cross-country ability. The permeability of the chassis is much lower than the pedestrian calculation, and the visibility is much higher. And it is much easier to hit this air defense system before entering its affected zone.
                1. lucul
                  lucul 22 October 2020 12: 57
                  +1
                  The Turks write in black and white that the "Gibka-S" is supposedly designed to deal with attack UAVs, against which the "Pantsir" was ineffective.

                  What nonsense the Turks just won't think of)))
                  How many Turkish UAVs were destroyed, and how many Shells? )))
                  Secondly, Shell's missiles are too expensive to trade for cheap drones. Flexible-S is just an example of cost reduction.
                  For those who are in the tank, and do not understand why the Armor cannot always destroy Bayraktar, I explain on my fingers:
                  Shell has missiles with a range of only 40 km. Bayraktar flies at an altitude of up to 8 m, and this allows him to have a radio horizon of 000 km, i.e. Bayraktar, theoretically can give target designation 300 km from the target, this is if his radar and optoelectronic detectors can recognize the target (roughly speaking, this is an analog Hokai), but this is theoretically and it is too small for such equipment, but in fact, Bayraktar has a detection range of a maximum of 300 km, which is two times the range of Pantsir missiles.
                  But if you think that most do not want to do it at all ...
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 22 October 2020 13: 08
                    +8
                    Quote: lucul
                    What nonsense the Turks just won't think of)))

                    I do not argue with that.
                    Quote: lucul
                    Secondly, Shell's missiles are too expensive to trade for cheap drones. Flexible-S is just an example of cost reduction.

                    The problem is that the article deals specifically with Turkish drone UAVs. And this is Bayraktar, with which Gibka-S will not be able to do anything. Simply because the launch range of the UAV's airborne weapons (8 km) is greater than the range of this wheeled MANPADS (5,5-6 km).
                    So the calculation of "Gibki-S" will only have to watch how the CABs are separated from the UAV.
                    1. lucul
                      lucul 22 October 2020 13: 13
                      -4
                      The problem is that the article deals specifically with Turkish drone UAVs. And this is "Bayraktar",

                      Is Bayraktar the smallest percussion drone? )))
                    2. Orange bigg
                      Orange bigg 22 October 2020 13: 17
                      0
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      Quote: lucul
                      What nonsense the Turks just won't think of)))

                      I do not argue with that.
                      Quote: lucul
                      Secondly, Shell's missiles are too expensive to trade for cheap drones. Flexible-S is just an example of cost reduction.

                      The problem is that the article deals specifically with Turkish drone UAVs. And this is Bayraktar, with which Gibka-S will not be able to do anything. Simply because the launch range of the UAV's airborne weapons (8 km) is greater than the range of this wheeled MANPADS (5,5-6 km).
                      So the calculation of "Gibki-S" will only have to watch how the CABs are separated from the UAV.


                      The Armenians could, but Gibka-S won't?
                      The Armenian Defense Ministry released technical data on the Turkish combat UAV Bayraktar TB2, shot down by Artsakh air defense forces on Monday.

                      As noted, a video camera of the L-3 WESCAM CMX-15D model, produced in Canada by WESCAM in June 2020, was installed on the downed drone. Apparently, it was placed on the device in September of this year. It was found that the total operating time of the UAV was 31 hours.

                      Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan, in turn, said that during the hostilities, the Armenian army destroyed about ten Turkish Bayraktar UAVs, but none of the downed vehicles hit the territories controlled by the Armenian forces.

                      “Finally, we have fragments of the Turkish Bayraktar, the study of which allowed us to establish that the UAV was assembled in September 2020, and the ultra-modern camera was produced in Canada in June this year.

                      https://m.zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5a528d9b5a104f7110e82199/sbityi-tureckii-bespilotnik-bayraktar-izuchili-armianskie-voennye-podrobnosti-i-dokazatelstva-vovlechennosti-turcii-foto-5f8ecf8175135c199909acd6
                      1. Barmal
                        Barmal 23 October 2020 01: 34
                        0
                        [media = https: //vk.com/video-34740837_456265884]
                    3. PCA
                      PCA 22 October 2020 20: 18
                      +2
                      Pantsyr-SM is already in service, pokan at the parade on June 24
                  2. JD1979
                    JD1979 22 October 2020 13: 47
                    10
                    Quote: lucul
                    For those who are in the tank, and do not understand why the Armor cannot always destroy Bayraktar, I explain on my fingers:

                    You are tangled in your fingers.
                    Quote: lucul
                    Shell has missiles with a range of only 40 km. Bayraktar flies at an altitude of up to 8m, which allows him to have a radio horizon of 000 km

                    To have that allows)) but who will give him?)) Radar WHERE?))
                    Quote: lucul
                    this is if its radar and optoelectronic means of detection can recognize the target (roughly speaking, this is an analogue of Hawkeye)

                    um ... analogue of what? why not Avaks?
                    Quote: lucul
                    and in fact, Bayraktar has a maximum detection range of 80 km, which is two times the range of Pantsir's missiles.

                    What do you mean?))) Considering the class of the UAV, it's good if it can detect something on the ground at a distance of 25-30 km.
                    Quote: lucul
                    But if you think that most do not want to do it at all ...

                    I completely agree with you reading your fantasies)
                    1. Alex777
                      Alex777 22 October 2020 17: 26
                      +5
                      We got a troll. Did you have such a feeling?
                  3. PSih2097
                    PSih2097 22 October 2020 20: 05
                    +2
                    Quote: lucul
                    Secondly, Shell's missiles are too expensive to trade for cheap drones.

                    do not confuse cold (aspic / aspic) with salad ...
                    any air defense is assessed (in any measure - you want in bread / lamb / dollars) solely in the rescue of units (drugs and their equipment) or objects to which they are attached, or cover on the march / in defense ...
              3. Rzzz
                Rzzz 22 October 2020 12: 23
                +2
                Quote: lucul
                Yes, it's just stupid that the operator's communication channel with the UAV was tracked

                Modern UAVs do not always have a communication channel with the operator.
          2. dgonni
            dgonni 22 October 2020 12: 03
            +1
            And what thread has already been able in a mini radar in a homing head the size of an Igloo or a stinger?
            1. Rzzz
              Rzzz 22 October 2020 12: 35
              +4
              Quote: dgonni
              And what thread has already been able in the mini radar

              The problem with the radar is that the sensitivity and resolution depends on the size of the antenna. So the possibilities for miniaturization are severely limited. In addition, UAVs are a difficult target due to their diminutiveness, plasticity and low speed.
              So what remains is radio command guidance on the ground radar, passive radar and opto-contrast.
              1. dgonni
                dgonni 22 October 2020 12: 48
                0
                Well, I asked the author about it;).
          3. Dart2027
            Dart2027 22 October 2020 19: 36
            +1
            Quote: lucul
            Because, most missiles with a seeker that are aimed at a hot engine

            Special anti-drone mini-missiles ("Nails") have long been made for the Shells.
          4. The comment was deleted.
          5. hydrox
            hydrox 23 October 2020 08: 02
            +2
            It makes sense to use IR-GOS against heavy and shock drones, otherwise it turns out to be very expensive.
            For swarm UAVs and scouts, it would be necessary to develop squadron formations with shot weapons, working under the target designation of a large drone with good radar and ECO. A sound station might even come in handy.
            1. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 24 October 2020 22: 21
              +1
              Quote: hydrox
              A sound station might even come in handy.

              It seems to be already done.
              The equipment developed by NPP Almaz in the form of the Ataka-Shorokh acoustic reconnaissance module can determine the direction and distance to the spy drone radio silent mode at a distance of 150 to 500 meters, depending on the surrounding noise environment. When an intruder drone is detected, the global positioning signal jammer is turned on. The development is shown at the Interpolitech-2020 exhibition held at VDNKh on October 20-23, 2020.

              And here is a photo of the product:
              1. hydrox
                hydrox 25 October 2020 20: 36
                +1
                Thank you for the good news!
          6. Ros 56
            Ros 56 24 October 2020 08: 24
            +1
            And that the electric motors do not heat up, I hear for the first time.
            1. hydrox
              hydrox 25 October 2020 20: 47
              +1
              To talk on this topic, you need to know how many Kelvin turbojet engines (TVD) spit out, and how many of them jump off the radiators of the email. engines.
              And this entails the corresponding range of the IR matrix - and its cost! lol
              Generally email. engines are materiel of the 9th class ...
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. elai
          elai 22 October 2020 12: 11
          0
          Yeah, considering that in Karabakh, from a height of up to 8 km, unmanned aerial vehicles are hammering and the wasp simply does not get enough of what this MANPADS will help at such an altitude.
      2. Graz
        Graz 22 October 2020 10: 17
        +8
        as it were, the reflective surface of homemade products is much smaller than that of industrially manufactured ones, since the sizes are also smaller, so I think it will be more difficult to detect and aim them
      3. Pereira
        Pereira 22 October 2020 10: 18
        +5
        Miners and tractor drivers use Russian Orlans. This is no longer knee and not Chinese civilian models.
        Svidomites use Buki against them. But it's expensive. We need simpler rockets.
      4. Cottodraton
        Cottodraton 22 October 2020 10: 18
        +8
        And why are you bombing peaceful miners and tractor drivers? Everyone knows that there are no more peaceful guys in the world than from Hezbollah! And the Israeli military, known for its bloodthirstiness, mercilessly bombed the poor miners and tractor drivers!
        1. Pereira
          Pereira 22 October 2020 10: 46
          30
          You got it all mixed up, dear.
          Miners and tractor drivers are bombed by bloodthirsty skakuas, not bloodthirsty Jews.
          Bloodthirsty Jews bombed the fighters for the independence of the Palestinian people.
          And we are bombing bloodthirsty American and Turkish hirelings
          1. Captain Pushkin
            Captain Pushkin 22 October 2020 22: 09
            0
            Quote: Pereira
            You got it all mixed up, dear.
            Miners and tractor drivers are bombed by bloodthirsty skakuas, not bloodthirsty Jews.
            Bloodthirsty Jews bombed the fighters for the independence of the Palestinian people.

            I'm confused, but what, aren't the Jews running the scauses? Well, the ones that they all the time choose in their elections for skakuas to select Jews?
            1. Pereira
              Pereira 22 October 2020 22: 59
              +1
              Lead. But their hands are clean. They just talk about high matters about good and justice. And directly people are deprived of life by performers - puppies. And they do it choking with delight.
      5. venik
        venik 22 October 2020 11: 05
        10
        Quote: Professor
        ... and why are you then trying to compare airplanes made on the knee by miners with tractor drivers with industrially manufactured drones used in Syria, Libya and Azerbaijan?

        ========
        Only Turkish "experts" and you can believe that "Gibka" was created exclusively for fighting drones! This is an air defense system created to replace the already obsolete air defense systems "Strela-1" and "Strela-10"! Their main target is attack helicopters and attack aircraft, as well as anything else that flies at low altitudes and has a decent IR signature!
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 22 October 2020 12: 09
          +8
          Quote: venik
          Their main target is attack helicopters and attack aircraft, as well as anything else that flies at low altitudes and has a decent IR signature!

          And who is involved in this, except for our family VKS? Who else works with iron and NARs from helicopters and attack aircraft?
          The operating range of the Gibki-S is half that of the ancient Hellfires. And to cover the wheeled chassis, in contrast to the pedestrian crew, is much more difficult. So, I'm afraid, "Gibka-S" will suffer the fate of the Armenian "striped flies".
          Quote: venik
          This is an air defense system created to replace the already obsolete air defense systems "Strela-1" and "Strela-10"!

          The most interesting thing is that when creating Strela-1, the military and designers deliberately abandoned the simplest solution - to put the existing MANPADS on the chassis. And they decided to develop a more powerful and long-range missile defense system.
          1. venik
            venik 22 October 2020 12: 32
            +4
            Quote: Alexey RA
            The most interesting thing is that when creating Strela-1, the military and designers deliberately abandoned the simplest solution - to put the existing MANPADS on the chassis. And they decided to develop a more powerful and long-range missile defense system.

            =========
            These are what kind of MANPADS we have then were there? For your information, the development of air defense missile systems with IK GOS "Strela-1" and "Strela-2" - began SIMULTANEOUSLY - by decree of the Council of Ministers of the USSR No. 94B-398 dated August 25, 1960. Development was carried out by OKB-16 and SKB GKOT. After the completion of the work (in 1968), it was decided to create (and modernize) the "Strela-2" as a company-level MANPADS, and "Strela-1" - to modify (make it heavier) and put it on a chassis for use in the battalion-regimental link !
            Teach materiel!
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 22 October 2020 13: 01
              +1
              Quote: venik
              What kind of MANPADS did we have then?

              "Strela-1" - in the MANPADS version.
              For originally, under the name "Strela-1", it was MANPADS.
              The development of the Strela-1 regimental self-propelled anti-aircraft missile system began on August 25, 1960 in accordance with the Resolution of the USSR Council of Ministers with a deadline for submitting proposals for further work (taking into account the results of firing tests of an experimental batch of missile samples) in the III quarter. 1962 The decree provided for the creation lightweight portable air defense system, consisting of two parts weighing no more than 10-15 kg each.

              But the Strela-1 MANPADS lost to the Strela-2. After that, the name "Strela-1" was inherited by the air defense missile system on an automobile chassis, which it was decided to equip with air defense systems with higher performance characteristics (and not just put on the chassis a launcher with air defense missile systems from the "Strela-1" MANPADS).
              After solving the main fundamental issues related to the creation of the Strela-2 complex, the question arose about the further fate of the Strela-1 air defense missile system, which had practically the same flight characteristics.
              For the expedient use of the Strela-1 complex in the troops, the GKOT management turned to the Customer and the Government with a proposal to establish higher requirements for this air defense missile system for the maximum range of destruction (up to 5 km) and reach in height (up to 3500 m), abandoning the portable execution of the complex and going to the air defense system with placement on a vehicle chassis.
              © Said Aminov
          2. Sanichsan
            Sanichsan 22 October 2020 16: 45
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            So, I'm afraid, "Gibka-S" will suffer the fate of the Armenian "striped flies".

            among the Armenians who use such weapons not in combination, of course yes but as a means of dealing with small reconnaissance drones as part of an echeloned air defense system, it is quite normal.
            are you an Armenian general? if not, why do you repeat nonsense after the Turks about drone UAVs? what
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 22 October 2020 17: 02
              +2
              Quote: SanichSan
              but as a means of dealing with small reconnaissance drones as part of an echeloned air defense system, it is quite normal.

              The "Gibka-S" missile from MANPADS. Can her seeker, sharpened under the helicopter engine, capture small recon drone?
              At ranges up to 4-5 km, it will be easier and faster to operate with receiver systems.
              1. Sanichsan
                Sanichsan 22 October 2020 18: 30
                +1
                Quote: Alexey RA
                The "Gibka-S" missile from MANPADS. Can her seeker, sharpened by a helicopter engine, capture a small reconnaissance drone?

                this is the question. but there is still a detection complex. and guidance, sort of like. he won't help missiles from MANPADS?
                Quote: Alexey RA
                At ranges up to 4-5 km, it will be easier and faster to operate with receiver systems.

                23-30mm? and they have an effective not 1.5-2 km? personally it seems to me insufficient, but this is to me personally bully
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 22 October 2020 18: 38
                  +2
                  Quote: SanichSan
                  this is the question. but there is still a detection complex. and guidance, sort of like. he won't help missiles from MANPADS?

                  So finding out is half the battle. The main thing is that the IR seeker captures the target, otherwise the missile defense system will go into milk. For besides her GOS, she has no other control channels.
                  Quote: SanichSan
                  23-30mm?

                  57-76 mm. smile
                  Expensive, yes. But the covered object is more expensive.
                  1. Sanichsan
                    Sanichsan 23 October 2020 01: 04
                    0
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    So finding out is half the battle. The main thing is that the IR seeker captures the target, otherwise the missile defense system will go into milk. For besides her GOS, she has no other control channels.

                    Well, Verba has it kind of bearable, and its own radar will allow you to quickly respond to targets and aim faster in automatic mode request
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    57-76 mm.

                    57 have just gathered in the troops and they are not yet there, but I have heard about 76 only for the fleet. maybe you missed something? but Verba, Arrow of all stripes is already there request
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    Expensive, yes. But the covered object is more expensive.

                    and what is expensive? a 57 projectile with a radio detonation will be cheaper than a rocket ... we are discussing air defense for covering wax in the near zone, on the front line, right?
                    1. Alexey RA
                      Alexey RA 23 October 2020 11: 43
                      +1
                      Quote: SanichSan
                      57 have just gathered in the troops and they are not yet there, but I have heard about 76 only for the fleet. maybe you missed something?

                      76mm is a bourgeoisie. More precisely, the Italians from OTO Melara.

                      In the early 90s, the ZSU was not appreciated - the existing air defense systems worked normally against its then targets (helicopters). But now it could come in handy.
                      1. Sanichsan
                        Sanichsan 23 October 2020 14: 54
                        +1
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        76mm is a bourgeoisie. More precisely, the Italians from OTO Melara.

                        and ... yes, I know this ... well, we think 57 will be limited. universal, large ammunition, module for a single platform is already ready. but a complex that increases the efficiency of using existing MANPADS also has the right to life request
                2. AllBiBek
                  AllBiBek 22 October 2020 21: 10
                  +1
                  No.
                  Confuse with Zushka. And with Shilka.
                  Pantsir, like Tunguska, still has guns.
                  1. Sanichsan
                    Sanichsan 23 October 2020 01: 07
                    0
                    Quote: AllBiBek
                    Confuse with Zushka. And with Shilka.
                    Pantsir, like Tunguska, still has guns.

                    at Shilka 23, at Pantsir and Tunguska 30. well, yes, and 23 and 30 are cannons, but effective up to 2 km ...
              2. Captain Pushkin
                Captain Pushkin 22 October 2020 22: 29
                0
                Quote: Alexey RA
                The "Gibka-S" missile from MANPADS. Can her seeker, sharpened by a helicopter engine, capture a small reconnaissance drone?
                At ranges up to 4-5 km, it will be easier and faster to operate with receiver systems.

                Why not put on the missile MANPADS seeker of the optical range? Cheap and cheerful.
                Not all weather? Likewise, drones are generally not all-weather.
      6. svp67
        svp67 22 October 2020 11: 10
        10
        Quote: Professor
        and why are you then trying to compare airplanes made on the knee by miners with tractor drivers with industrially manufactured drones used in Syria, Libya and Azerbaijan?

        Because this and that is perfectly knocked down by air defense systems, with their proper use. After the successes in Syria and Libya, something about their continuation is no longer heard, but the UAVs began to be regularly swept from the sky. Why's that? Yes, apparently they found a council. It’s another matter, that to combat UAVs it is very costly to spend a modern air defense missile, which is designed to destroy a much faster and more maneuverable aircraft. So, there is a need to create new, cheaper missiles. And to be honest, now it's not these Turkish strike UAVs that pose a big threat, but your strike drones, that's what you really have to suffer with
      7. Interlocutor
        Interlocutor 22 October 2020 11: 47
        +4
        ... and why are you then trying to compare airplanes made on the knee by miners with tractor drivers with industrially manufactured drones used in Syria, Libya and Azerbaijan?

        I think what he is trying to say is that what matters is the result. You, if I am not mistaken with a laser (experimental), also pour the balls on the border. Yes, and the "Iron Dome" chases pipes with a "firecracker" in the sky, because you know that you can take life with a pipe.
        And if the base is successfully protected from any plywood crap with an exploding warhead, then the investment pays off.
        1. Artura
          Artura 22 October 2020 22: 22
          +1
          Oh, I almost forgot, this one is probably familiar to you))))
      8. Artura
        Artura 22 October 2020 22: 21
        0
        Gifts for you, for your album as a keepsake !!!!!




      9. aszzz888
        aszzz888 23 October 2020 02: 12
        0

        Professor (Sokolov Oleg)
        Yesterday, 09: 57

        -31 qualifying.
        Quote: neri73-r
        Tell this to the guys from Khmeimim! We found that to compare Pantsir and Bendka, completely two different machines in terms of capabilities.

        ... and why are you then trying to compare airplanes made on the knee by miners with tractor drivers with industrially manufactured drones used in Syria, Libya and Azerbaijan?
        The answer is obvious !!! laughing
    2. 1976AG
      1976AG 22 October 2020 10: 01
      +7
      Quote: neri73-r
      Tell this to the guys from Khmeimim! We found that to compare Pantsir and Bendka, completely two different machines in terms of capabilities.

      The main thing here is that ammunition for Gibka is much cheaper than for Shell. Shooting sparrows with a cannon is not the best method.
      1. LiSiCyn
        LiSiCyn 22 October 2020 10: 14
        +8
        Quote: 1976AG
        The main thing here is that ammunition for Gibka is much cheaper than for Shell.

        "Flexible" generally seems to be for the Airborne Forces, in the first place.
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 22 October 2020 13: 31
          0
          Quote: LiSiCyn
          Quote: 1976AG
          The main thing here is that ammunition for Gibka is much cheaper than for Shell.

          "Flexible" generally seems to be for the Airborne Forces, in the first place.

          It depends on what the troops will attack
          If modern aviation from afar or shock drones from a great height - FIG will help
          Against helicopters and Warthogs - will work
      2. rocket757
        rocket757 22 October 2020 10: 18
        10
        Khmeimim is a particle of a full-fledged, normally organized air defense, a "gasket" between the launch button and the seat, there is proper training and quality! Then, the attack drones are not of the army level, although they are not a small danger.
        It's just that a technique, even a good one, DOES NOT WORK efficiently by itself! EVERYONE was convinced of this more than once! There is nothing to consider and listen to different experts, because no one can give any other example ... all sorts of imperfections, half-educated people, disregard for instructions and regulations, bad organizers and commanders, a natural result, losses and defeat.
        And to create new methods of dealing with drones, new effective, but cheaper equipment, this is generally logical and logical !!! What is the question then?
      3. vVvAD
        vVvAD 22 October 2020 11: 08
        +4
        That is why small-sized missiles are also being developed for Pantsir-C1.
      4. venik
        venik 22 October 2020 11: 39
        +1
        Quote: 1976AG
        The main thing here is that ammunition for Gibka is much cheaper than for Shell.

        ===
        You think so? And according to my data, the 9M336 rocket is cheaper than the 57E6E by several times, only 70-80%. At the same time, the probability of defeat for 57E6E is higher (I'm not talking about the range and reach in height!).
        1. Captain Pushkin
          Captain Pushkin 22 October 2020 22: 34
          0
          Quote: venik
          According to my data, the 9M336 rocket is cheaper than the 57E6E not by several times, only 70-80%.

          If 80%, then it turns out 5 times cheaper, if 70%, then 3,3 times.
          1. venik
            venik 23 October 2020 10: 26
            0
            Quote: Captain Pushkin
            If 80%, then it turns out 5 times cheaper, if 70%, then 3,3 times.

            ========
            Uh-huh! There is "Euclidean geometry", there is "Lobachevsky geometry", and now even "arithmetic according to Captain Pushkin"appeared! laughing lol
            1. Captain Pushkin
              Captain Pushkin 23 October 2020 10: 55
              0
              Hello Broom! Pleased. And the sharpness of thought and an attempt to inscribe my pseudonym in the annals of mathematical science. But alas, it won't work.
              Let me explain. If hardware number 1 costs 100%, and hardware number 2 costs 80% less. Then the cost of hardware number 2 will be 20% of the cost of hardware number 1 (100% -80% = 20%)
              20% is five times less than 100%.
              In total, piece of iron number 2 is exactly 1 (five) times cheaper than piece of iron number 5.
              To secure the material, you can independently calculate how many times piece of iron number 3 is cheaper than piece of iron number 1, provided that piece of iron number 3 is 70% cheaper than piece of iron number 1.
              I wish you success (correct answer: 3,3 and 3 times in the period)
              1. venik
                venik 23 October 2020 17: 14
                -2
                Quote: Captain Pushkin
                Hello Broom! Pleased. And the sharpness of thought and an attempt to inscribe my pseudonym in the annals of mathematical science. But alas, it won't work.

                =======
                Why not? Do not do like this to be shy!
                ---------
                Quote: Captain Pushkin
                Let me explain. If hardware number 1 costs 100%, and hardware number 2 costs 80% less. Then the cost of hardware number 2 will be 20% of the cost of hardware number 1 (100% -80% = 20%)

                =======
                Those. If "product" A "costs (conditionally) $ 60 thousand, then 80% of its cost is $ 48 thousand. This means that" product "B" worth $ 106 thousand is not 80% more expensive (in 1.8 times), and more expensive 5 times! belay Congratulations on the "discovery" of "nonlinear arithmetic" !!!
                PS Are we going to apply for the Nobel Prize? Or is it better not "Shnobel" at once ??? lol
                -----
                PPS Signs ("+" and "-") are better not to be confused! And it will turn out like mine: I wanted you "+"put (for a heightened sense of humor!), but confused and accidentally"-" set.... request
                1. Captain Pushkin
                  Captain Pushkin 23 October 2020 18: 50
                  0
                  Quote: venik
                  PS Are we going to apply for the Nobel Prize? Or is it better not "Shnobel" at once ???

                  How everything is running ...
                  We learned how to compose words into a sentence, it's good, it remains to learn the meaning of what is written.
                  "according to my data, the 9M336 rocket is cheaper than the 57E6E by several times, only 70-80%."
                  Did you write this?
                  Suppose the 9M336 rocket costs 60 thousand. 80% of its cost is 48 thousand.
                  57E6E (costs less) not by several times, only by 70-80%. "
                  We get the cost 57E6E = 60 thousand - 48 thousand = 12 thousand.
                  Something like this. Further, my friend, yourself ... yourself ...
                  If you didn't manage to understand, then visit several lectures on arithmetic in the nearest elementary school.
                  PS It puts you in pluses, it seems like there is nothing, but the hand does not rise to offend with minuses - you and so school teachers strongly offended you.
                  1. venik
                    venik 23 October 2020 19: 14
                    -1
                    Quote: Captain Pushkin
                    How everything is running ...
                    Learned how to make up words, it's good it remains to learn the meaning of what is written.

                    =========
                    Oo-oo-oo-oo, how everything is running at you! I thought you were a joker, but it turns out that you also do not know how to write ..... Read carefully YOUR phrase (especially what is in bold!
                    -----------
                    Quote: Captain Pushkin
                    Suppose the 9M336 rocket costs 60 thousand. 80% of its cost is 48 thousand.
                    57E6E (is cheaper) not "times", only 70-80%. "
                    We get the cost 57E6E = 60 thousand - 48 thousand = 12 thousand.
                    Something like that.

                    =========
                    Oh-oh-oh-oh! So you, not only COUNT, but also do not know how to READ! Let's see WHAT was in the "original":
                    Quote: venik
                    And according to my data, the 9M336 rocket is cheaper than the 57E6E by several times, only 70-80%.

                    =======
                    WHO is cheaper than WHOM? 9M336 is cheaper than 57E6E or 57E6E is cheaper than 9M336 ???
                    PS A little about arithmetic ("linear" laughing ). If 9M336 costs 60 thousand, and 57E6E ~ 110 thousand, then [(110/60) -1] = 0.83 (or 83%) ....
                    Quote: Captain Pushkin
                    Something like this. Further, my friend, yourself ... yourself ...

                    request hi
                    1. Captain Pushkin
                      Captain Pushkin 23 October 2020 20: 13
                      0
                      Quote: venik
                      WHO is cheaper than WHOM? 9M336 is cheaper than 57E6E or 57E6E is cheaper than 9M336 ???

                      What's the difference? If one is 80% cheaper than the other, this means that it differs in price by 5 times.
                      Did you get it? No again? Then not to school, but to the clinic.
                      Be healthy.
                      1. venik
                        venik 24 October 2020 10: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Captain Pushkin
                        What's the difference? If one is 80% cheaper than the other, this means that it differs in price by 5 times.

                        =========
                        It is already diagnosis! With this - no longer to me! Better to go to the nearest kindergarten - they put the basics of arithmetic into their heads there - maybe they will help! And as for me - thank you!
                        hi
                        PS And if one product is 120% cheaper than another, how many times will it be? In "- 5 times"? lol
                      2. Captain Pushkin
                        Captain Pushkin 24 October 2020 11: 34
                        0
                        Quote: venik
                        PS And if one product is 120% cheaper than another, how many times will it be? In "- 5 times"?

                        Did you understand what you wrote?
                        Do you get that if one product costs 100 rubles and this is 100%, then some other product can cost 120% cheaper? It turns out that you pay 20 rubles for it so that it can be taken from you ...
                        This is already a diagnosis! With this - no longer to me! Better to go to the nearest kindergarten - they put the basics of arithmetic into their heads there - maybe they will help! And as for me - thank you!
                        P, S, did you go to school at all? If so, I wonder what years?
                      3. venik
                        venik 24 October 2020 12: 21
                        0
                        Quote: Captain Pushkin
                        Do you get that if one product costs 100 rubles and this is 100%, then some other one can cost 120% cheaper?

                        =======
                        If it is 120%, it means NOT CHEAPER, but EXPENSIVE!
                        -----------
                        Quote: Captain Pushkin
                        Did you go to school at all? If so, I wonder what years?

                        =======
                        Actually, both at school and at the university and in graduate school ... And I also worked for 25 years at the research institute, defended my candidate's and have 29 publications in Soviet and foreign scientific journals, 4 copyright certificates and defended my candidate's (even in the USSR - the Union VAK) in the specialty 01.04.07. (solid state physics). Therefore, when I hear that: "80% more is 5 times more !!!) then you involuntarily want to make a gesture: fool (Sorry!)
                        The formula for the difference between the 2 values, expressed as a percentage, is extremely simple: {[(ab) / b] * 100%} = {[(a / b) -1] * 100%}... If a> b, then the result more units if a less units! What is not clear? Or were the arithmetic classes in the kindergarten "skipped"?
                      4. Captain Pushkin
                        Captain Pushkin 24 October 2020 15: 50
                        0
                        Quote: venik
                        He defended the candidate's (even under the USSR - the Union VAK)

                        In my younger years, I had to write reviews on both candidate and doctoral dissertations (the boss only signed, he was too lazy to read any crap). Either I was somehow particularly unlucky, or, indeed, the average level of the then applicants was below the plinth.
                        Quote: venik
                        when I hear that: "80% more is 5 times more !!!)

                        So you also have problems with hearing? (More precisely, with vision). 80% more, that's 1,8 times more
                        But after all, you wrote: "... according to my data, the 9M336 rocket is cheaper than the 57E6E not by several times, only 70-80%"
                        Those. LESS by 80%, but this is, indeed, a difference of 5 times.
                        Quote: venik
                        {[(ab) / b] * 100%} = {[(a / b) -1] * 100%}. If a> b, then the result is greater than one, if a

                        How lucky I was that your dissertation did not catch my eye!
                      5. venik
                        venik 25 October 2020 10: 33
                        0
                        Quote: Captain Pushkin
                        How lucky I was that your dissertation did not catch my eye!

                        ======
                        Of course lucky! You would understand absolutely nothing about it!
  • Nasdaq
    Nasdaq 22 October 2020 12: 04
    +1
    I'm not sure if it's much cheaper. The MANPADS has a homing head, but the "shell" missiles have no homing head.
    1. venik
      venik 23 October 2020 19: 33
      0
      Quote: Nasdaq
      I'm not sure if it's much cheaper. The MANPADS has a homing head, but the "shell" missiles have no homing head.

      ========
      Exactly!!! There is a difference of 1.5 - 2 times (no more!). This is the "feature" of "Shell" and "Thors" - a radio-controlled rocket!
  • Civil
    Civil 22 October 2020 10: 32
    +1
    There is no smoke without fire, the situation with the UAV has serious questions from all sides. Well, the Shell is not intended to drive plastic drones.
  • smart ass
    smart ass 22 October 2020 12: 26
    +3
    Aha hmeimim swarm attacked and sense 0 !!! You just need to have straight arms
  • Airdefense
    Airdefense 22 October 2020 12: 29
    +2
    You saw the composition of the air defense in Khmeimin, not every country can afford it.
  • deniso
    deniso 22 October 2020 12: 51
    +1
    What kind of nonsense is the author writing ???? Do you even know for what purposes the Pantsir air defense system is designed for use ??? This is tantamount to firing a cannon at sparrows, Turkish UAVs very successfully suppressed Krasukh's electronic warfare systems ... This is the information of dolboyas.
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 22 October 2020 18: 28
    +2
    It will be possible to determine the effectiveness of "bayraktar" vs "shell" when there will be some, at least relatively accurate, amount of losses on both sides. In the meantime, the speeches of the Turkish media are the tales of Recep's grandfather, for handicapped children, well, and an advertising campaign))))
  • frruc
    frruc 22 October 2020 19: 32
    -1
    Turkey believes that their unmanned aerial vehicles are effective even against Russian air defense systems.

    Nothing more than a publicity stunt for the Turks.
  • Alekseev
    Alekseev 22 October 2020 20: 25
    +2
    Quote: neri73-r
    Found what to compare

    Rather, they found something to read and discuss. Say, the Turkish newspaper wrote!
    The effectiveness of troops and weapons is determined primarily by the result of their activities.
    What happened and what happened in Syria after the Russian Aerospace Forces used a number of these "shitty" weapons?
    At the same time, the journalists do not report that the drones began to be effectively hit as soon as the air defense was more or less established during the battles in Idlib and the Turks had to throw a significant number of their troops on the ground into battle to save their barmaley and incur losses. The UAVs did not change the situation, although they hit a number of targets, but the public opinion of ordinary citizens became their prey.
    The newspaper also does not report that the RA, in fact, besides the Armor, a kind of Tunguska for covering the close approaches to the positions of the S-300 and S-400, there is also Torah, which are more complicated and more expensive, but true, but also more effective.
    In general, there are no ideal weapons systems. All have their own advantages and disadvantages, which not only need to be eliminated by industrial plants, but must also be taken into account in the tactics of their use.
  • Dikson
    Dikson 22 October 2020 09: 41
    +3
    Will it work against gliding bombs? 8-10 km is generally not a "low-flying" target ...
    1. lucul
      lucul 22 October 2020 10: 22
      -6
      Will it work against gliding bombs? 8-10 km is generally not a "low-flying" target ...

      I repeat, all these gliding bombs, UAVs and so on are all substitutes for cruise missiles, simply because these countries cannot develop a full-fledged cruise missile.
  • 1976AG
    1976AG 22 October 2020 09: 43
    16
    As usual, wishful thinking is passed off as real. But for some reason, examples are taken not from Syria, where our personnel manage the complexes, but from other regions, where it is generally unclear who and how controls them. Well, blessed is he who believes ...
    1. nov_tech.vrn
      nov_tech.vrn 22 October 2020 10: 06
      16
      It's just that "Armor" is only part of the air defense system and without other components it does not provide complete protection. Plus the disadvantages of managing its use. And so far, no one has canceled the propaganda, drones are perfectly disabled when faced with a well-constructed opposition, the Turks are diligently silent about this.
    2. Vol4ara
      Vol4ara 22 October 2020 10: 09
      -15 qualifying.
      Quote: 1976AG
      As usual, wishful thinking is passed off as real. But for some reason, examples are taken not from Syria, where our personnel manage the complexes, but from other regions, where it is generally unclear who and how controls them. Well, blessed is he who believes ...

      And in Syria, a few of the Shells were destroyed?
      1. 1976AG
        1976AG 22 October 2020 10: 10
        19
        Quote: Vol4ara
        Quote: 1976AG
        As usual, wishful thinking is passed off as real. But for some reason, examples are taken not from Syria, where our personnel manage the complexes, but from other regions, where it is generally unclear who and how controls them. Well, blessed is he who believes ...

        And in Syria, a few of the Shells were destroyed?

        Ours? No one.
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          2. 1976AG
            1976AG 22 October 2020 10: 19
            11
            Quote: Vol4ara
            Quote: 1976AG
            Quote: Vol4ara
            Quote: 1976AG
            As usual, wishful thinking is passed off as real. But for some reason, examples are taken not from Syria, where our personnel manage the complexes, but from other regions, where it is generally unclear who and how controls them. Well, blessed is he who believes ...

            And in Syria, a few of the Shells were destroyed?

            Ours? No one.

            Have you tried? Shit and stick drones don't count

            In drones made of shit and sticks, imported electronics, obviously not collected in a garage or a bunker in Syria.
            "Have you tried?" Yes, we tried.
            1. Vol4ara
              Vol4ara 22 October 2020 11: 58
              -4
              Quote: 1976AG
              Quote: Vol4ara
              Quote: 1976AG
              Quote: Vol4ara
              Quote: 1976AG
              As usual, wishful thinking is passed off as real. But for some reason, examples are taken not from Syria, where our personnel manage the complexes, but from other regions, where it is generally unclear who and how controls them. Well, blessed is he who believes ...

              And in Syria, a few of the Shells were destroyed?

              Ours? No one.

              Have you tried? Shit and stick drones don't count

              In drones made of shit and sticks, imported electronics, obviously not collected in a garage or a bunker in Syria.
              "Have you tried?" Yes, we tried.

              Did you think that the bearded men assemble engines and control modules in the garage? I’ll tell you more that these drones are not just an imported glider, and that’s not accurate, but that doesn’t prevent them from being classified as "made of shit and sticks"
              1. 1976AG
                1976AG 22 October 2020 15: 30
                +4
                "Did you think that the bearded men assemble the engines and control modules in the garage? I'll tell you more that these drones are not just an imported glider, and that's not accurate, but this does not prevent them from being classified as" made of shit and sticks. "
                You can call them whatever you want, even shit with sticks, even the miracle of the technology of Israel of the 5th generation, it's deeply equally for me. The main thing is that neither any trifle, nor any BARANTARS there have yet been able to overcome our defense. And this suggests that we are making decent equipment and applying it competently.
                1. Vol4ara
                  Vol4ara 22 October 2020 16: 18
                  0
                  Quote: 1976AG
                  "Did you think that the bearded men assemble the engines and control modules in the garage? I'll tell you more that these drones are not just an imported glider, and that's not accurate, but this does not prevent them from being classified as" made of shit and sticks. "
                  You can call them whatever you want, even shit with sticks, even the miracle of the technology of Israel of the 5th generation, it's deeply equally for me. The main thing is that neither any trifle, nor any BARANTARS there have yet been able to overcome our defense. And this suggests that we are making decent equipment and applying it competently.

                  And the barantars, as you put it, did not try, no drones of any developed country in the world tried. One junk collected on the knee tried and it was not without success, they paid for themselves a thousandfold
                  1. 1976AG
                    1976AG 22 October 2020 16: 33
                    +2
                    The trifle paid for itself in terms of the fact that the price of missiles is higher, yes. They never fulfilled their task. Further for your information, the Predator, Bayraktar, Anka-s UAVs were destroyed by the Shells. If these are drones from underdeveloped countries, then you are right.
                    1. Vol4ara
                      Vol4ara 22 October 2020 21: 21
                      -2
                      Quote: 1976AG
                      The trifle paid for itself in terms of the fact that the price of missiles is higher, yes. They never fulfilled their task. Further for your information, the Predator, Bayraktar, Anka-s UAVs were destroyed by the Shells. If these are drones from underdeveloped countries, then you are right.

                      A trifle damaged the planes in Khmeimim, which means that the air defense was poorly done.
                      1. 1976AG
                        1976AG 23 October 2020 00: 02
                        -1
                        Quote: Vol4ara
                        Quote: 1976AG
                        The trifle paid for itself in terms of the fact that the price of missiles is higher, yes. They never fulfilled their task. Further for your information, the Predator, Bayraktar, Anka-s UAVs were destroyed by the Shells. If these are drones from underdeveloped countries, then you are right.

                        A trifle damaged the planes in Khmeimim, which means that the air defense was poorly done.

                        You confuse bases, air defense affiliation and consequences a little.
                      2. 1976AG
                        1976AG 23 October 2020 00: 14
                        0
                        Quote: Vol4ara
                        Quote: 1976AG
                        The trifle paid for itself in terms of the fact that the price of missiles is higher, yes. They never fulfilled their task. Further for your information, the Predator, Bayraktar, Anka-s UAVs were destroyed by the Shells. If these are drones from underdeveloped countries, then you are right.

                        A trifle damaged the planes in Khmeimim, which means that the air defense was poorly done.

                        This was not our base, but yours. Not in Syria, but in Iraq. Was attacked not by drones, but by missiles. And it was not our air defense system that did it, but yours.
            2. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 22 October 2020 12: 10
              +4
              Quote: 1976AG
              In drones made of shit and sticks, imported electronics, obviously not collected in a garage or a bunker in Syria.

              Aliexpress. "Impact UAV. Assemble yourself." smile
              1. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 22 October 2020 18: 32
                0
                UAVs are assembled in Banderland from Chinese components. They sculpt "made in banderland" on the signs, and on TV they say that this is entirely Bandera development)))
          3. Interlocutor
            Interlocutor 22 October 2020 11: 50
            +5
            Have you tried? Shit and stick drones don't count


            Tell the Syrians, when in their stadium, a shit drone burned down an entire stadium-sized ammunition depot.
            what difference does it make if a factory drone crashes or a small grenade throws off ...
            1. Vol4ara
              Vol4ara 22 October 2020 11: 55
              -6
              Quote: Interlocutor
              Have you tried? Shit and stick drones don't count


              Tell the Syrians, when in their stadium, a shit drone burned down an entire stadium-sized ammunition depot.
              what difference does it make if a factory drone crashes or a small grenade throws off ...

              The difference is enormous, if you are not able to understand this then this is no longer for me
              1. Interlocutor
                Interlocutor 22 October 2020 11: 56
                +7
                The difference is enormous, if you are not able to understand this then this is no longer for me

                You don't get personal, you discuss. Or be silent. Put pluses or minuses.
    3. venik
      venik 22 October 2020 10: 53
      12
      Quote: 1976AG
      As usual, wishful thinking is passed off as real. But for some reason, examples are taken not from Syria, where our personnel manage the complexes, but from other regions, where it is generally unclear who and how controls them. Well, blessed is he who believes ...

      ========
      And not only in Syria!
      Nagorno-Karabakh "Bayraktar" shot down 19-10-2020

      Syria, Idlib, "Bayraktar", shot down on 25 August 2020 (presumably "Shell").


      Libya, Bayrvktar shot down by "Pantsir", 13-12-2019

      (In total, from December 2019 to April 2020, 28 Turkish-made UAVs (mainly of the Bayraktar type) were shot down in Libya, the bulk of the UAVs were destroyed by the Shells.)

      Syria, Idlib, the newest Turkish reconnaissance and strike UAV "Anka" (cost $ 30 million), shot down on 25/02/2020 (presumably the "Strela-10" or "Pantsir" air defense missile system)


      Such are the things! A whole bunch of them! Everyone won't fit here! soldier
  • cniza
    cniza 22 October 2020 09: 45
    +7
    Turkish edition: Russian "Pantsiri" showed their helplessness in front of Turkish UAVs


    "Each sandpiper praises his swamp" - there has not yet been a serious "practice" to draw such conclusions, do not rush ...
    1. rocket757
      rocket757 22 October 2020 10: 47
      14
      Hi soldier
      They praise their own, what they do well, what has already been able to show its effectiveness, this is normal! Everybody does it.
      From the point of view of air defense, they have nothing to brag about, but they do the shock drones and ammunition for them CORRECTLY! Most of the air defense systems, MANPADS, close range do not reach them, and where there are more serious systems they do not seek to climb. A very thoughtful tactic!
      Their enemy will have more long-range vehicles, they will change tactics and ammunition.
      Hammers, what else to say.
      1. cniza
        cniza 22 October 2020 13: 52
        +3
        Good time! hi

        Well done, of course, but they don't go where, in addition to technology, there is also trained, experienced personnel, plus combined air defense. I would not conclude that they won the duel against our armor.
        1. rocket757
          rocket757 22 October 2020 15: 17
          +3
          I always wrote and write that we have lonely shells in the fields and lands not to wander, because this is utter nonsense and against a serious opponent, the option is losing or not, it depends what kind of nonsense the enemy will show.
          The dispute is no longer about technique, but about tactics and preparation of the "strip".
          There is no sales topic for discussion.
          1. cniza
            cniza 22 October 2020 16: 00
            +4
            Here I am about the same, Turkey gives out pearls for the sake of advertising and well done ...
            1. rocket757
              rocket757 22 October 2020 16: 53
              +1
              Yes, everything is expected if he remembers and cites the reasoning of those who once taught the Eastern warriors!
              I think the current teachers could have added too !!! But they are still in the service, down!
  • MKPU-115
    MKPU-115 22 October 2020 09: 48
    11
    "Turkish edition" - we must also refer to the Ukrainian edition lol
    1. Vitaly gusin
      Vitaly gusin 22 October 2020 10: 35
      -12 qualifying.
      Quote: MKPU-115
      "Turkish edition" - we must also refer to the Ukrainian edition

      In Russia, they told about the "tarnished reputation" of "Shell" and S-300
      https://lenta.ru/news/2020/10/21/s300/
      1. neri73-r
        neri73-r 22 October 2020 10: 45
        +9
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        https://lenta.ru/news/2020/10/21/s300/

        Found a Russian edition, you still give Echo as an example! laughing
        1. Vitaly gusin
          Vitaly gusin 22 October 2020 12: 46
          -7
          Quote: neri73-r
          Found a Russian edition, you still give Echo as an example!

          Neither pink glasses, nor hats of different sizes, nor the number of MINUSES will help you,
          THE TRUTH ALWAYS REMAINS THE TRUTH!
          In Russia, they told about the "tarnished reputation" of "Shell" and S-300
          The conflicts of recent years in Syria, Libya and Nagorno-Karabakh have “tarnished the reputation” of the S-300 Favorit anti-aircraft missile systems (SAM) and the Pantsir anti-aircraft missile-gun complex (ZRPK), writes "Military Industrial Courier".
          The newspaper says that one of the leading roles in the conflicts taking place in these regions is played by unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), which are capable of operating, in particular, in conditions where the presence of a person is undesirable, for example, with increased radiation.

          https://vpk.name/news/456839_v_rossii_rasskazali_o_podmochennoi_reputacii_pancirei_i_s-300.html
          1. 1976AG
            1976AG 22 October 2020 15: 40
            +3
            Vitaly, well, you seem to be smart, but your desire to gloat outweighs common sense. If the personnel has poor skills in working with the complex, or neglects security measures, that is, camouflage, or in general the complex was inoperative, then this does not mean that the complex is bad. If you really follow the situation, then you know everything perfectly. In these conditions, both your Dome and your Merkava will also be an ordinary pile of iron.
            1. Vitaly gusin
              Vitaly gusin 22 October 2020 17: 38
              -3
              Quote: 1976AG
              Vitaly, well, you seem to be smart,

              Thank you!
              Quote: 1976AG
              the desire to gloat outweighs common sense.

              NO, it isn't.
              I'm not gloating, I just have to write TRUTH
              Sputnik website
              Certain attempts by Russia's western competitors in the global arms market to discredit the world's best anti-aircraft missile and missile-gun systems do not stand up to the harsh reality. In a combat situation, Russia's weapons are noticeably superior to the latest Western-made models, and the Pantsir-S mobile complex is a vivid example of this.
              Over the years of combat work in different regions of the planet, the Pantsir complexes were destroyed more than a hundred UAVs, were highly appreciated by specialists. In Syria, the complex has gained a reputation as the most effective remedy to counteract flocks of "smart missiles" and swarms of stealthy drones.

              In Syria, Lieutenant General Vladimir Savchenko said the drones that the Russian Aerospace Forces shot down in Syria
              RT
              The Russian anti-aircraft missile-gun complex "Pantsir-S" is unsurpassed weapons in the air defense system, this air defense system has gained fame as the most effective means of countering drone attacks, so the lack of an analogue of such a complex in the United States is a significant drawback of American air defense.
              tvzvezda
              Defense in motion: "Pantsir-C1" in 60 seconds
              Designed for close protection of civil and military objects from all modern and promising air attack weapons. Designed for close protection of civil and military targets from all modern and advanced air attack weapons. We are talking about aircraft, including small drones and rockets.
              And so you can endlessly
              Quote: 1976AG
              If the personnel has poor skills in working with the complex, or neglects security measures, that is, camouflage, or in general the complex was inoperative, then this does not mean that the complex is bad.

              You have to think about this when they sell and to whom they sell, and if you really want to sell, then they train accordingly. Then the result is on the opponent's face. AND SUCH REVIEWS DO NOT APPEAR.
              Quote: 1976AG
              In these conditions, both your Dome and your Merkava will also be an ordinary pile of iron.

              No, they cannot get into such conditions. not sold to anyone who can dishonor Israeli weapons. I will not give an example, you yourself know.
              Pay attention!
              I AM NOT SLEEPING AND I DO NOT OFFEN ANYONE.
              1. neri73-r
                neri73-r 22 October 2020 22: 19
                -1
                Quote: Vitaly Gusin
                I AM NOT SLEEPING AND I DO NOT OFFEN ANYONE.

                Yes, you are just jealous !!!! Well, you cannot compete with us !!! Dimensions are not the same! Alas, an objective reality. hi
                1. Vitaly gusin
                  Vitaly gusin 22 October 2020 23: 18
                  -2
                  Quote: neri73-r
                  Yes, you are just jealous !!!!

                  laughing
                  Quote: neri73-r
                  Dimensions are not the same!

                  This is not where size matters. laughing
                  Quote: neri73-r
                  Well, you cannot compete with us !!!

                  Size NO.
                  According to many vital signs YES, according to modern technologies YES.
                  And your management wants to cooperate, not compete.
                  And many here only dream that someone should destroy someone.
                  Israel has concluded peace treaties with four Arab countries that either fought with it earlier or did not want to recognize it and there are more to come.
                  AND YOU HAVE THINKING IN THE USSR.
                  1. neri73-r
                    neri73-r 23 October 2020 08: 25
                    +1
                    laughing wassat laughing Do not make me laugh. Without some support from outside, alas, only in a small part.
                    1. Vitaly gusin
                      Vitaly gusin 23 October 2020 09: 24
                      0
                      Quote: neri73-r
                      Do not make me laugh.

                      Read more world media (no matter which country) and do not rely on propaganda information.
                      Just one example.
                      During the Yom Kippur War, the United States did not want to spoil relations with Arab countries for all Israel's requests for arms deliveries and did not make supplies. And only the statement of Golda Meer that nuclear weapons would be used (by the way, which Israel produced without the help of the United States) changed America's position.
                      After this event, Israel began to develop its military-industrial complex.
                      Today, US aid is 1% of GDP.
                      GDP per capita is about $ 43000 (compare with yours). Without help, it would have been about $ 40000. America and European countries are buying Israeli weapons.
                      Once again.
                      Thanks to the Internet, you can receive various information and analyze it.
          2. PCA
            PCA 23 October 2020 00: 32
            +1
            Russia has Armor SM in service with the Parade on June 24 to May 9
          3. Boris ⁣ Shaver
            Boris ⁣ Shaver 23 October 2020 10: 29
            0
            Quote: Vitaly Gusin
            won't help

            Vitya, how is your mouth? What doctors say?
      2. MKPU-115
        MKPU-115 22 October 2020 11: 21
        +8
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        In Russia told

        laughing Have you read it?
        "In September, The Drive wrote that the Azerbaijani military destroyed at least six 9K33 Osa air defense systems and three Soviet-designed Arrow-9 air defense systems in Nagorno-Karabakh."
        And yes, ru tape, exactly the same Russian edition as topwar.ru lol
        Did you not know?
        1. nov_tech.vrn
          nov_tech.vrn 22 October 2020 12: 44
          0
          "In response to the use of the Turkish Bayraktar TV2 attack drones by the Azerbaijani military to strike at the territory of Armenia and the unrecognized Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, Russia decided to use its unique weapons." We are talking about the Krasukha-4 electronic warfare (EW) complexes, which successfully destroy UAVs, forcing them to fall right on the territory of Armenia. As a result, as the newspaper writes, in just 48 hours at least nine Turkish Bayraktar were destroyed in the conflict zone, with a total cost of about $ 8-10 million. This version is also supported by the fact that there are no traces of damage by air defense weapons on the bodies of the collapsed drones. The drones simply lost control and fell to the ground. The press is so ...
        2. Vitaly gusin
          Vitaly gusin 22 October 2020 12: 49
          -5
          Quote: MKPU-115
          Have you read it?

          https://vpk.name/news/456839_v_rossii_rasskazali_o_podmochennoi_reputacii_pancirei_i_s-300.html
          1. 1976AG
            1976AG 22 October 2020 15: 43
            +3
            Quote: Vitaly Gusin
            Quote: MKPU-115
            Have you read it?

            https://vpk.name/news/456839_v_rossii_rasskazali_o_podmochennoi_reputacii_pancirei_i_s-300.html

            Well, have you even noticed that the phrase "tarnished your reputation" was given in quotation marks? Do you know what that means? Remember the Russian language.
      3. MMX
        MMX 22 October 2020 12: 49
        -1
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        Quote: MKPU-115
        "Turkish edition" - we must also refer to the Ukrainian edition

        In Russia, they told about the "tarnished reputation" of "Shell" and S-300
        https://lenta.ru/news/2020/10/21/s300/

        Who-who stated ?? wassat
  • Archivist Vasya
    Archivist Vasya 22 October 2020 09: 48
    +7
    Cheaper than Carapace, but is it more effective? Looks very budgetary and not angry. What kind of rockets did he have? Bayraktar TB2 is by no means low-flying, 8 kilometers is not a small height.
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 22 October 2020 09: 50
    12
    MANPADS are compactly placed on it, as we can see. "Willow"? Then the reach height is no more than 5.5 km. And "Bayraktar" seems to be higher. "Flexible" is still not omnivorous ... Or will it still be more long-range and high-altitude? And something for searching and aiming. GOS drones will be difficult to capture ...
    1. Ka-52
      Ka-52 22 October 2020 10: 09
      +6
      Or will they still deliver a more long-range and high-altitude one?

      For a logical question, of course, +, but rockets capable of flying for 10 thousand and more have m about 500-600 kg each (type 9M317M). How can you imagine a bundle of such poles on such a light cart? wink
      At the maximum altitude of the Turkish UAVs, even the Tor2M with the 9M331 aircraft will not be able to hold out. Where really Verbe
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 22 October 2020 10: 20
      13
      "Bayraktar" seems to be more high-rise. "Flexible" is still not omnivorous ... "////
      ----
      You have correctly identified the problem.
      The goal for the complex can be:
      1) small, but high-altitude - a drone,
      2) low-flying and diving - drone-kamikanze
      3) high-speed, very low EPR - a rocket or gliding bomb.
      ---
      Air defense situation:
      1) There is no single radar that would distinguish well between all these types of targets
      2) There is no single missile that could hit all these types of targets.
      ---
      Therefore, they mold hodgepodge from different radars and optical sights and different missiles and guns.
      And they are trying to create a single MSA for all this hodgepodge. But no one has succeeded yet.
      1. MMX
        MMX 22 October 2020 12: 53
        +1
        The usual competition between "armor" and "shell".
      2. PCA
        PCA 23 October 2020 00: 36
        -2
        Armor CM sees everything and knocks it down Shown at the Parade
  • Artavazdych
    Artavazdych 22 October 2020 09: 50
    +1
    "Helplessness, the last handful of earth" - oh, this Turkish clamor!
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 22 October 2020 09: 50
    +7
    This is not against the MALE class ... he flies for 5 km .. this is probably against the Harop and so on. The rocket is cheaper and the thermal imager. But all the same, someone must have a sky observer to give out the CU.
    1. alexmach
      alexmach 22 October 2020 10: 20
      +3
      But all the same, someone must have a sky observer to give out the CU.

      We have already written more than once - probably in this direction the military air defense will move.
    2. Interlocutor
      Interlocutor 22 October 2020 11: 54
      +1
      This is not against the MALE class ... he flies for 5 km .. this is probably against the Harop and so on. The rocket is cheaper and the thermal imager. But all the same, someone must have a sky observer in order to issue a CU

      Perhaps against the "kamikaze", but this must be checked in battle. A car with a good "reaction" should also be "automatic".
  • MKPU-115
    MKPU-115 22 October 2020 09: 52
    +4
    "The publication believes that the Russian" Armor "showed their helplessness in front of the Turkish UAVs in Syria and Libya." - The Syrian Armed Forces shot down 20 Turkish drones in the Idlib province.
    1. Professor
      Professor 22 October 2020 09: 55
      -7
      Quote: MKPU-115
      "The publication believes that the Russian" Armor "showed their helplessness in front of the Turkish UAVs in Syria and Libya." - The Syrian Armed Forces shot down 20 Turkish drones in the Idlib province.

      And at least two hundred were shot down. The fact is that they could not provide air defense and Turkish drones dominate the air.
      In Karabakh, Azerbaijan's air supremacy is practically unprecedented.
      1. MKPU-115
        MKPU-115 22 October 2020 10: 00
        +7
        Quote: Professor
        In Karabakh, Azerbaijan's air supremacy is practically unprecedented.

        And they have something from air defense against UAVs?
        1. Vol4ara
          Vol4ara 22 October 2020 10: 12
          -3
          Quote: MKPU-115
          Quote: Professor
          In Karabakh, Azerbaijan's air supremacy is practically unprecedented.

          And they have something from air defense against UAVs?

          Otrk in the places of basing, but for some reason they decided that it would be better in the cities
          1. MKPU-115
            MKPU-115 22 October 2020 10: 24
            +3
            Quote: Vol4ara
            Quote: MKPU-115
            Quote: Professor
            In Karabakh, Azerbaijan's air supremacy is practically unprecedented.

            And they have something from air defense against UAVs?

            Otrk in the places of basing, but for some reason they decided that it would be better in the cities

            And what about intelligence, electronic, satellite? And target designation?
            It is clear that if the war is for real with a real enemy, then base airfields, stations with UAV operators would have been covered long ago.
            1. Vol4ara
              Vol4ara 22 October 2020 11: 15
              0
              Quote: MKPU-115
              Quote: Vol4ara
              Quote: MKPU-115
              Quote: Professor
              In Karabakh, Azerbaijan's air supremacy is practically unprecedented.

              And they have something from air defense against UAVs?

              Otrk in the places of basing, but for some reason they decided that it would be better in the cities

              And what about intelligence, electronic, satellite? And target designation?
              It is clear that if the war is for real with a real enemy, then base airfields, stations with UAV operators would have been covered long ago.

              When did the Iskander purchases - what did you think?
              1. MKPU-115
                MKPU-115 22 October 2020 11: 23
                +2
                Quote: Vol4ara
                When did the Iskander purchases - what did you think?

                A satellite?
                The US State Department and CIA agents thought for them.
          2. 1976AG
            1976AG 22 October 2020 16: 45
            0
            Quote: Vol4ara
            Quote: MKPU-115
            Quote: Professor
            In Karabakh, Azerbaijan's air supremacy is practically unprecedented.

            And they have something from air defense against UAVs?

            Otrk in the places of basing, but for some reason they decided that it would be better in the cities

            So Azerbaijan is hitting Stepanakert with Tornadoes for some reason ..
            1. Vol4ara
              Vol4ara 22 October 2020 21: 22
              0
              Quote: 1976AG
              Quote: Vol4ara
              Quote: MKPU-115
              Quote: Professor
              In Karabakh, Azerbaijan's air supremacy is practically unprecedented.

              And they have something from air defense against UAVs?

              Otrk in the places of basing, but for some reason they decided that it would be better in the cities

              So Azerbaijan is hitting Stepanakert with Tornadoes for some reason ..

              And that Karabakh has airfields with airplanes and drones that strike Azerbaijan?
      2. dragy52rus
        dragy52rus 22 October 2020 10: 03
        +5
        Quote: Professor
        The fact that they could not provide air defense and Turkish drones dominate the air

        who or what could not be provided?
      3. BDRM 667
        BDRM 667 22 October 2020 10: 04
        16
        Quote: Professor
        And at least two hundred were shot down. The fact is that they could not provide air defense and Turkish drones dominate the air.
        In Karabakh, Azerbaijan's air supremacy is practically unprecedented.


        What is the title of the article?
        Turkish edition: Russian "Pantsiri" showed their helplessness in front of Turkish UAVs
        And the NKR, in which the air defense (if it can be called that), "Armor" - 0 (zero) integers, X (X) tenths, as an example, are you given for "tick"?
        1. PCA
          PCA 22 October 2020 15: 06
          0
          Quote: OgnennyiKotik

          More news from a parallel universe. As the UAVs flew at the beginning of the battles in Idlib, they flew until the last days. The fact that they were shot down is their fate, consumables. No one is upset that the drill is dull, holes made, work done, you need to buy a new one.


          Pantsyr-SM did not apply Another Demagogue
      4. MKPU-115
        MKPU-115 22 October 2020 10: 08
        12
        Quote: Professor
        The fact is that they could not provide air defense and Turkish drones dominate the air.

        Fact. Exactly two days they reigned, until they brought up the air defense, which, before that, was simply NOT there.
        How did the Syrian wink Air defense in Idlib and electronic warfare, also Syrian wink , a drone fall began, at the same time, together with the barmaley, they rolled Turkish warriors into the ground (by accident), it finally came to Edik and Turkey curtailed its operation in Idlib "Spring Shield".
        On March 5, Russian and Turkish Presidents Vladimir Putin and Recep Erdogan agreed to end hostilities in the Syrian province of Idlib.
        Questions?
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 22 October 2020 10: 23
          -10 qualifying.
          Quote: MKPU-115
          Fact. Exactly two days they reigned, until they brought up the air defense, which, before that, was simply NOT there.

          More news from a parallel universe. As the UAVs flew at the beginning of the battles in Idlib, they flew until the last days. The fact that they were shot down is their fate, consumables. No one is upset that the drill is dull, holes made, work done, you need to buy a new one.

          And here are the facts, not your inventions:
          February 29

          March 1

          March 3


          Turkey showed footage of delivering a massive attack on SAA in Idlib
          February 28 2020

          https://topwar.ru/168446-turcija-pokazala-kadry-nanesenija-massirovannogo-udar-po-saa-v-idlibe.html
          Turkish army hits airfield east of Aleppo and shells Kurdish cities
          February 29 2020

          https://topwar.ru/168467-tureckaja-armija-udarila-po-ajerodromu-k-vostoku-ot-aleppo-i-obstreljali-kurdskie-goroda.html
          Turkish UAVs hit the airfield in Hama. Russia does not guarantee security for Turkish Air Force over Syria
          March 2 2020

          https://topwar.ru/168518-tureckie-bpla-nanesli-udar-po-ajerodromu-v-hame-rf-ne-garantiruet-bezopasnost-dlja-vvs-turcii-nad-siriej.html
          1. MKPU-115
            MKPU-115 22 October 2020 10: 32
            +7
            Again advertising from AZ and bad propaganda. Zadolbali noodles to hang the Internet generation.
            % of Turkish UAV sales fell? Nobody wants to buy for $ 80 million? Rightly so, they are suitable for a local war, for fighting partisans. In a serious conflict, there is no Turkish UAV - the range and speed are small, they are subject to electronic warfare, 5 units have already flown into Iran, why would it?
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. MKPU-115
                MKPU-115 22 October 2020 11: 24
                +2
                Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                Words, words, again words, just words,
                Only words.
                Beautiful words, happy dreams
                Time has passed, time has passed.

                Take a look around, everything has changed

                Is this an argument or what? lol
                The impoverished army AZ uses what they gave and what they could scrape together against another poorer armed formation.
                It is useless to use them against more or less equipped armed forces, because their "starfall" will begin and retribution will immediately follow, the plant where they are produced will be razed to the ground, airfields with carriers, a booth with operators, well, and their school is full of instructors from Israel and Turkey is the minimum.
            2. Dikson
              Dikson 22 October 2020 11: 20
              -2
              We don't have such UAVs either ..). It’s strange - is it possible that no steamed and persistently climbing into the military niche KAMAZ can develop an engine for a light car? And Avtovaz can't? Well, buy already 1000 Yamah or Honda motorbikes, remove the engines from them, rivet the gearbox and attach wings to them .. 2000 dollars is the price of the issue.
              1. MKPU-115
                MKPU-115 22 October 2020 11: 34
                +1
                Quote: Dikson
                We don't have such UAVs either ..). It’s strange - is it possible that no steamed and persistently climbing into the military niche KAMAZ can develop an engine for a light car? And Avtovaz can't? Well, buy already 1000 Yamah or Honda motorbikes, remove the engines from them, rivet the gearbox and attach wings to them .. 2000 dollars is the price of the issue.

                Why do we need such a UAV?
            3. Grits
              Grits 22 October 2020 14: 23
              +2
              Quote: MKPU-115
              5 of them have already flown into Iran, why would that be?

              With the fact that Iran decided to get hold of a little trophies at the expense of a neighboring warring country. So what? If American heavy UAVs know how to land, then why not seize Turkish / Azerbaijani ones?
        2. Professor
          Professor 22 October 2020 14: 49
          +2
          Quote: MKPU-115
          Fact. Exactly two days they reigned, until they brought up the air defense, which, before that, was simply NOT there.

          How many weeks do you have in one day? As far as I can judge from the material evidence, Azerbaijani air supremacy has not yet ceased. The drones beat the Armenians and beat them. No, though. They don't beat that way. Previously, all the technicians were beaten, but now the personnel are beaten. Neither camouflage nor entrenching helps. About air defense generally keep quiet. No ANTI-AIR DEFENSE among Armenians.
        3. The comment was deleted.
      5. MKPU-115
        MKPU-115 22 October 2020 10: 10
        +2
        Quote: Professor
        And at least two hundred were shot down.

        repeat Well, don't be so, otherwise you will bring our Turkish partners to a heart attack.
      6. The comment was deleted.
        1. MKPU-115
          MKPU-115 22 October 2020 11: 13
          +3
          Quote: unhappy
          Who prevented the Armenians after 2016 (the effectiveness of the UAV was already proven then) to establish the production and procurement of drones?

          USA, or do you doubt the abilities of the curators from the State Department and the CIA?
      7. Kurare
        Kurare 22 October 2020 10: 20
        +7
        Quote: Professor
        In Karabakh, Azerbaijan's air supremacy is practically unprecedented.

        So yes. But, this is a consequence of the lack of proper means of destruction of the UAV.

        Armenia is ill-prepared for such a development of events. We relied on Western curators, the result is obvious!
      8. lucul
        lucul 22 October 2020 10: 27
        0
        The fact is that they could not provide air defense and Turkish drones dominate the air.
        In Karabakh, Azerbaijan's air supremacy is practically unprecedented.

        Pffff ...
        Now imagine that there is no air supremacy. And all the UAVs have sharply become useless toys)))
        I repeat - all these UAVs - it's just that he doesn't know how to produce cruise missiles)))
        1. Dikson
          Dikson 22 October 2020 11: 14
          +4
          KR how much more expensive ??? Does it make sense to spend more money on consumables? It's like shooting down a quadrocopter from the S-300 ..))
          1. lucul
            lucul 22 October 2020 11: 19
            +3
            KR how much more expensive ???

            Caliber is cheaper than Bayraktar)))
            1. telobezumnoe
              telobezumnoe 27 October 2020 11: 28
              0
              So what? caliber started and that's it. and this one fired back with guns, returned, then flew again to new targets. caliber can do the same?
        2. Professor
          Professor 22 October 2020 14: 58
          0
          Quote: lucul
          The fact is that they could not provide air defense and Turkish drones dominate the air.
          In Karabakh, Azerbaijan's air supremacy is practically unprecedented.

          Pffff ...
          Now imagine that there is no air supremacy. And all the UAVs have sharply become useless toys)))
          I repeat - all these UAVs - it's just that he doesn't know how to produce cruise missiles)))

          KR is dear disposable thing. To use it, you need drones, otherwise it will turn out like with Calibers in Syria - a very effective start from the Caspian Sea and ... that's all. fellow
          CDs are suitable for stationary very expensive purposes. They cannot knock out air defense systems and tanks. Not spiritual bourgeois first hit the CD, and then finish off with aviation. I posted an article about the psychological effect of drones here back in 2011. It's a pity the Armenians don't read VO.
          1. lucul
            lucul 22 October 2020 16: 45
            +1
            otherwise it will turn out like with Calibers in Syria - a very effective start from the Caspian Sea and ... that's all.

            Ahahaahah))))

            CDs are suitable for stationary very expensive purposes. They can't knock out air defense systems and tanks.

            Aha-ahah, which air defense systems will be able to repel an attack of cruise missiles? )))
            Cruise missiles destroy air defense, ammunition depots, fuels and lubricants, equipment, airfields, power stations, factories producing weapons, shipyards.
            But with you - the most important thing is to destroy single tanks, I completely forgot who I'm talking to)))
            1. Professor
              Professor 22 October 2020 20: 18
              +1
              Quote: lucul
              Ahahaahah))))

              Uh-huh.

              Quote: lucul
              Aha-ahah, which air defense systems will be able to repel an attack of cruise missiles? )))

              No. "curvature of the earth's surface" will not allow.

              Quote: lucul
              Cruise missiles destroy air defense, ammunition depots, fuels and lubricants, equipment, airfields, power stations, factories producing weapons, shipyards.

              Hold your horses. SAMs are mobile and the CD does not know where they are. ammunition depots, fuels and lubricants are buried deep underground. Airfields are restored within XNUMX hours. The technique is spreading. Power plants and factories are out of luck.

              Quote: lucul
              But with you - the most important thing is to destroy single tanks, I completely forgot who I'm talking to)))

              Do not forget. The tank is worth millions of dollars.
          2. 72jora72
            72jora72 23 October 2020 14: 27
            0
            CD is an expensive disposable item. To use it, you need drones, otherwise it will turn out like with Calibers in Syria - a very effective start from the Caspian Sea and ... that's all. fellow
            You probably meant amerovskie CRs that effectively hit three sheds, and 15 pieces disappeared somewhere on arrival .......
      9. Interlocutor
        Interlocutor 22 October 2020 11: 55
        +3
        In Karabakh, Azerbaijan's air supremacy is practically unprecedented.

        We must pay tribute. The Armenians have failed the air defense.
      10. MMX
        MMX 22 October 2020 12: 57
        0
        In Libya, the industrial scale of the landing of the UAV.
        It is very good. RF can remotely work out the method and means. As, however, and Turkey.
        Offense and defense are competing once again.
      11. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 22 October 2020 16: 50
        0
        And, unlike aviation, there are no deaths of 200 pilots ...
      12. Dart2027
        Dart2027 22 October 2020 19: 51
        +1
        Quote: Professor
        The fact that they could not provide air defense and

        I wonder how many times it is necessary to repeat that air defense is provided only by echeloned defense, and some Armor for this, in principle, are not intended, like any other air defense system?
      13. PCA
        PCA 23 October 2020 00: 39
        -1
        Armor CM at the Parade showed Shoots down everything and everyone
  • SaLaR
    SaLaR 22 October 2020 09: 57
    +3
    Whoever got up first, that and sneakers ...))) The main thing is to promote yourself in time))
    1. MKPU-115
      MKPU-115 22 October 2020 10: 13
      0
      Quote: SaLaR
      Whoever got up first, that and sneakers ...))) The main thing is to promote yourself in time))

      Yeah and raise the percentage of sales until you figured it out.
  • Avior
    Avior 22 October 2020 09: 58
    +6
    It looks like it is based on MANPADS.
    In this case, the effectiveness against UAVs with piston and electric engines will not be very high.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 22 October 2020 12: 15
      +6
      Quote: Avior
      It looks like it is based on MANPADS.
      In this case, the effectiveness against UAVs with piston and electric engines will not be very high.

      So this is the "transportable MANPADS". Monkeying from those countries that do not have normal air defense systems and which mold pseudo-air defense systems from what is at hand. In our country, the installation of MANPADS on the chassis was crushed back in the USSR (preferring either to carry MANPADS calculations, or to arm light chassis with more powerful missiles) - but the Russian Federation decided to go over this rake.
      Such a complex is equally ineffective against small UAVs and against large ones. The first ones are very difficult to capture the missile defense missile system, and the second ones will simply knock out the air defense missile system from 6-8 km, before entering the zone of its defeat.
      1. vch62388
        vch62388 23 October 2020 10: 50
        0
        I agree. Personally, I never understood why to put MANPADS on a car, if you can put the crew in a car (armored personnel carrier, infantry fighting vehicle, cart, motor boat, etc.). The main advantage of MANPADS is its mobility and the unpredictability of the area of ​​its appearance. The Americans have never made a special short-range missile defense system for the SV (Chapparel with Sidewinder, Avenger with Stingers, ADATS was not theirs, and did not enter), relying on fighters, Patriots and MANPADS. But in vain. In the absence of air superiority, tactical air defense systems can be extremely useful.
  • Sovpadenie
    Sovpadenie 22 October 2020 10: 13
    +5
    And the "respected" expert did not mention how and why the Turkish UAVs and Russian "Pantsiri" ended up on opposite sides of the front in Syria?
  • Jcvai
    Jcvai 22 October 2020 10: 22
    +3
    In principle, there is something in this, because the "correct" air defense must be worked out at least with Calibers in the UAV control centers, and in parallel with production and financing.
  • Sergey Valov
    Sergey Valov 22 October 2020 10: 22
    +4
    The current conflict in Karabakh is a confrontation between two weak and impoverished armies, one of which is better prepared for it than the other, plus Azerbaijan enjoys little support from a rather strong Turkey. It is too early and incorrect to draw any conclusions, including the effectiveness of the technique used. If Iran, or, moreover, Russia, intervened on the side of Armenia, and the course of hostilities unfolded exactly the opposite, even without the use of its own regular troops, the "vacationers" would be enough. And reviews of the same technique would be completely different.
    1. dani
      dani 22 October 2020 11: 39
      +1
      Friend,
      You can't say that the army is poor if it allows itself to buy several Bayraktar TB2 complexes worth $ 60 each!
      Is not it!?
  • KAVBER
    KAVBER 22 October 2020 10: 22
    +2
    Shells are shells, and although there really is a video of their destruction, but there is also evidence of their excellent work, the question is, what did they shyly keep silent about the electronic warfare, what's the point of Bayraktar VS Krasukha?
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 22 October 2020 10: 43
      -4
      Quote: KAVBER
      and that they bashfully kept silent about the electronic warfare, what's the bill of the Bayraktar VS Krasukha?

      Bayraktar vc Krasukha 0-0. There is no evidence of destruction of either. If so, please provide evidence.
      UAV vc Repellent, 2 repellent destroyed, UAVs downed by them 0. Here is the evidence:

      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 22 October 2020 12: 19
        +5
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        UAV vc Repellent, 2 repellent destroyed, UAVs downed by them 0. Here is the evidence:

        There is no "Repellent" - only his remains. The video shows that the targeted target has a jumble of beams in the place of the operator's cabin and the front antenna platform. So this is a "test shot" at the previously destroyed complex.
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 22 October 2020 12: 48
          -1
          Harpy is an unmanned aerial vehicle designed to combat radar. Developed by the Israeli company IAI.
          It is a homing projectile aircraft. After detecting radar signals, it determines the location of the target, dives at it and strikes with a high-explosive fragmentation warhead. It is launched from a mobile container-type launcher using solid-propellant launch boosters. The first flight took place in 1989.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Dmitry V.
            Dmitry V. 23 October 2020 13: 32
            +2
            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            after detecting radar signals, it determines the location of the target, dives at it and hits it with a high-explosive


            And it could drop a sub-ammunition from a dive and return to the area for re-equipment and be equipped with a parachute system for reuse.
            Well, it is more profitable for a manufacturer to break a product with an engine and guidance system every time in order to sell more new ones - right, comrades, Israeli commercial engineers? :)

            It is especially ridiculous to smash a kamikaze drone against stationary targets, for which it is elementary to organize dive bombing - even equip a 120 mm mortar mine in the form of an inexpensive submunition and organize a conveyor to deliver mines to the enemy's near rear with high accuracy.
            That is, for the same kamikaze drone, increase the fuel supply for the return, the detachable warhead, rewrite the software for the separation of the warhead from the dive, withdrawal from the dive and return to the area, equip with a module with a parachute system.
            We get a relatively reusable drone bomber with an increased resource.
            A moving target - we break it, a stationary one - we separate the submunition from a steep dive.
            1. OgnennyiKotik
              OgnennyiKotik 23 October 2020 13: 37
              0
              It's really weird that such drones don't. Suspend 1 MAM-L / C and return drone. Okay Israel, they sell systems from the 90s, you can understand them.
              1. Dmitry V.
                Dmitry V. 23 October 2020 13: 42
                +1
                Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                It's really weird that such drones don't. Suspend 1 MAM-L / C and return the drone. Okay Israel, they sell systems from the 90s, you can understand them.


                I understand why they don’t do it - a disposable product, like a disposable machine gun, thrown away after one shot is an ideal weapon for a manufacturer, a shitty one for an army.

                I just think there are not enough technically competent analysts in the army.
                They look at Western trends and do not see ways to rationalize - they do not teach how to decompose an engineering problem into its components.
                If in the delivery vehicle, 2 complex tasks have been solved, such as delivery of ammunition and guidance, then to make the ammunition detachable, and the delivery vehicle, salvable - suggests itself from the logic of creating an effective weapon - cheaper and reusable.
                1. OgnennyiKotik
                  OgnennyiKotik 23 October 2020 13: 50
                  -1
                  Still, the harpy is a stage of development, it is clear that now it is unreasonable to make a 3-meter kamikaze drone. Kamikaze drones can be effectively armed at the platoon-company level. Plus massive systems.

                2. OgnennyiKotik
                  OgnennyiKotik 23 October 2020 13: 59
                  -1
                  Maybe the Turks are doing what we say, UAVs are on the rise. Here's a new system that feels like the cheaper TB2.

                  Karayel Camera System Features (Payload)
                  EO-Day Camera (HD) - Optical zoom function up to X50
                  Night (IR) camera (HD) - optical zoom up to X50
                  Laser rangefinder
                  Laser designator
                  Laser pointer
                  Total weight: 51 kg

                  Specifications Karayel
                  Wingspan: 10,5 meters
                  Length: 7 meters
                  Takeoff weight: 500 kg
                  Payload: 70 kg
                  Engine power: 70 hp
                  Cruising speed: 60-80 knots
                  Duration of stay in the air: 20 hours.
                  Flight altitude: 22 feet

        2. PCA
          PCA 22 October 2020 15: 02
          -1
          Quote: OgnennyiKotik
          Harpy is an unmanned aerial vehicle designed to combat radar. Developed by the Israeli company IAI.

          Not used against Pantsyr-SM - the result is unknown. Another Demagogue.
  • set of sets
    set of sets 22 October 2020 10: 24
    +3
    Helplessness is unlikely. Well, the fact that throwing a stone is always easier than knocking it down is no secret to anyone.
    That is, in advance you need to destroy the place from where the stone will be released. This is the main task. IMHO
  • rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 22 October 2020 10: 37
    +4
    Russian "Armor" showed their helplessness in front of Turkish UAVs in Syria and Libya
    Maybe not the Shells showed helplessness, but the crews? And what is this "last handful of earth" that the Azerbaijanis threw at the Russian air defense? I learned from the Turks that there are Russian air defense systems in Karabakh. Turks are beginning to resemble Ukrainians - not a day without nasty things towards Russia. Apparently, they really haven't gotten in the teeth for a long time.
  • Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 22 October 2020 10: 45
    +6
    Mdaaaa .... it is immediately clear that their Turkish mother did not teach Turkish balabols in childhood that it is not good to lie! What does "Flexible" have to do with it? This system became known long before the enthusiasm for these "Turkish TV2"! "Flexible" is armed with "Igla-S", "Verba" MANPADS ... its role is relatively modest in comparison with other air defense systems ... In Karabakh, there were no "Pantsiri" ... if you throw individual machines anywhere, you won't be enough of any air defense systems! This is when the arms of the arap will straighten? Probably, this generation needs to become extinct, and the next ripe ... maybe then the results will appear?
  • APASUS
    APASUS 22 October 2020 10: 51
    +7
    Why don't our people write that "Bayraktar TB2" is manure?

    During the combat use of UAVs in Libya from November 2019 to April 2020, Turkey lost about 28 drones.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 22 October 2020 11: 06
      -4
      Quote: APASUS
      During the combat use of UAVs in Libya from November 2019 to April 2020, Turkey lost about 28 drones.

      28 drones can add up to Idlib + Libya.
      Map at the end of November 2019

      Card for today
      1. Kvazar
        Kvazar 22 October 2020 13: 04
        +1
        In Libya, 20 pieces were dropped (which were found after being shot down) only Bayraktar TB2
        A couple of Atka and a couple of dozen small pieces.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • dani
    dani 22 October 2020 11: 31
    0
    An interesting, but unfortunately, still not a very pleasant topic for the Russian military-industrial complex to this day!
    It is a pity that, first of all, so far there have been plenty of "bravura belletristic" speeches inherent to politicians than to such a forum!
    I suggest Esli is, on the forum, those who wish, discote, more or less concretely created situation with Bayraktar TB2!
  • Operator
    Operator 22 October 2020 11: 59
    -2
    "Gibka-S" sucks.

    To protect the air defense system from guided munitions, short-range anti-aircraft missiles (~ 3 km) and a launcher with an extremely cheap optical detection system (such as wide-angle IR video cameras of standard surveillance systems) and an optical guidance system (such as a lidar of common traffic police recorders) are required.
  • Hermit21
    Hermit21 22 October 2020 12: 22
    +1
    More such analnytics. So that all sorts of backward tribes are more often stocked up with unmanned garbage
    1. deniso
      deniso 22 October 2020 12: 55
      -1
      Turkish bedtime stories laughing
  • Airdefense
    Airdefense 22 October 2020 12: 28
    0
    Why not, the Pantsir cannot shoot down even a training target from anti-aircraft guns, only the export version remains, the Pantsir has a range of up to 20 km, which makes it necessary to keep it close to the front line, and given the capabilities and accuracy of the artillery, the complex is very vulnerable.

    The usual race of the shield and the sword, they will make installations with cheap missiles (UAVs are slow and not maneuverable targets, respectively, the requirements for missiles are different) in an amount of 30-40 pieces per complex and will raise the range to 40 km.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • deniso
    deniso 22 October 2020 12: 53
    0
    There is no Russia in Karabakh, in any form. Even in the form of delivered air defense and electronic warfare equipment. The Turks need to understand this. No need to wake up smartly while it is quiet. Show trouble, jinx it.
  • ZEMCH
    ZEMCH 22 October 2020 15: 05
    0
    Sponsored advertising of Turkish weapons and an attempt to anti-advertising Russian.
  • Kolin
    Kolin 22 October 2020 15: 31
    -2
    Anal-lytica is such an anal-lytic.
  • Flavius
    Flavius 22 October 2020 15: 33
    -1
    Assumption. Turkish UAVs began to fall "suddenly" in the NKR. It is necessary to quickly sell an already, not very good product expensive. Because, apart from the rich Azerbaijani Buratino, no one buys them, in fact, for this, the militant-aggressive Buratino is needed not only by Erdogan, but also by Israel)) Therefore, it is necessary to launch "advertising" until the anti-advertising on word of mouth reaches.
  • Tneburashka
    Tneburashka 22 October 2020 17: 10
    0
    According to statistics, during the Second World War, 10 percent of the Luftwaffe was destroyed in the air, everything else is at the airfields, if you do not bomb the places where they come from and replenish the ammunition, then the cornmen will break through any air defense
  • Klingon
    Klingon 22 October 2020 17: 26
    0
    I read the article, read the sRach in the comments of the Devan iksperdoffs and came to the conclusion that a drone fighter is needed against the beaver drones. He must have a developed radar and optics. The armament should be small-caliber rapid-fire on a rotating turret ... it should probably be a fast helicopter-type drone. And against drones-suicides it is necessary to train golden eagles - balapans. A golden eagle can handle a paper with a small drone
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 22 October 2020 18: 42
      +1
      Quote: Klingon
      I read the article, read the sRach in the comments of the Devan iksperdoffs and came to the conclusion that a drone fighter is needed against the beaver drones. He must have a developed radar and optics. The armament should be small-caliber rapid-fire on a rotating turret ... probably it should be a fast helicopter-type drone.

      Sheckley is remembered more and more often.
      Gelsen got up grimly, stretched and walked to the window. The sky was empty. Gelsen looked out the window and suddenly realized that hesitation was over. Whether he is right or not, but the decision has been made.
      “Listen,” he asked, still looking up at the sky, “and who will the Hawks hunt for when they kill all the Guardian Birds?”
      - That is, as? - confused MacIntyre. “N-well ... after all ...”
      “You would have designed something for hunting the Hawk for safety.” Just in case, you know.
  • georggy
    georggy 22 October 2020 18: 51
    0
    Shitty dancers always get in the way.
    1. Avior
      Avior 22 October 2020 20: 52
      +1
      Koki, they are different smile

      It happens, and they interfere ...
  • Taoist
    Taoist 22 October 2020 19: 14
    0
    By the way, "naive question" and what prevents against such UAVs (high-altitude but slow and non-maneuverable) to use modernized (guidance and control) weapons of the KS19 type? 15 km height reach and 15 rounds per minute? PUAZO a little to modernize and hello any loitering ammunition.
    1. Falcon5555
      Falcon5555 23 October 2020 02: 58
      0
      Then PUAZO should not be a little, but thoroughly modernized - supplemented with optoelectronic and infrared devices with intelligent software and many other devices. The heads of the shells should also be modernized. And add a smaller caliber cannon for close targets, but not the same as in Pantsir.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 23 October 2020 11: 49
      +1
      Quote: Taoist
      By the way, "naive question" and what prevents against such UAVs (high-altitude but slow and non-maneuverable) to use modernized (guidance and control) weapons of the KS19 type? 15 km height reach and 15 rounds per minute? PUAZO a little to modernize and hello any loitering ammunition.

      Modernize PUAZO.
      Add your own radar.
      Place it on a chassis in order to maneuver out from under enemy artillery fire (to cover the ZA troops, you will have to place this artillery in the working zone, which will crush the opened air defense systems by 146%).
      And we get ...
      1. Dmitry V.
        Dmitry V. 23 October 2020 13: 21
        +1
        The artillery component alone is not enough. For self-defense against kamikaze drones, you need an MZA.
        Achieving an artillery impact distance (3000-5500 m) is not enough to intercept UAVs armed with missile weapons (the latest versions of AGM-114 Hellfire -10000 m), an appropriate range of missiles is needed.
        That is, the air defense missile system remains relevant, only with the rearmament to a larger caliber (such as derivation 57 mm) _ + missiles with a range of 15000 m

        By the way, it is not rational for the army to smash a kamikaze drone for stationary targets, for trade it is very profitable, for the army you cannot find enough.
        It is necessary to make a detachable sub-ammunition, make the drone recoverable and equip it with a parachute system, pick up in the return area, re-equip and reuse
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 23 October 2020 13: 37
          +1
          Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
          That is, the air defense missile system remains relevant, only with the rearmament to a larger caliber (such as derivation 57 mm) _ + missiles with a range of 15000 m

          Better to divide:
          - SAM deals with heavy attack UAVs - ATGM and KAB carriers.
          - ZAK deals with small strike UAVs, while covering the "dead zone" of the air defense system.
          In short, return to the mixed composition of anti-aircraft batteries.
          1. Dmitry V.
            Dmitry V. 23 October 2020 13: 56
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            - SAM deals with heavy attack UAVs - ATGM and KAB carriers.
            - ZAK deals with small strike UAVs, while covering the "dead zone" of the air defense system.
            In short, return to the mixed composition of anti-aircraft batteries.


            The logic is good if the detectors are remote.
            And if the detection system on each of the air defense systems, the ZAK duplicates the functions of the other, this is not rational.
            Yes, there is a difference in the guidance system - but the ZRAK rationally unites them.
            One ZRAK is cheaper than one ZAK and one SAM.

            I’m waiting for our "clever" operators to take care of it - to remove habitable modules from the complexes and control them remotely like on MIM-104, place them on trailers.



            Each time a broken "shell" is a dead crew, a destroyed tractor.
            As if cables and rugged laptops hadn't been invented yet ...
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 23 October 2020 14: 09
              +1
              Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
              The logic is good if the detectors are remote.

              Detection should always be remote. For the work of its own radar for detection is a demasking of the complex. The ZRK / ZAK radar should be activated only for capture-tracking, and the situation data and target designation should go "from above" with display on VIKO.
              Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
              I’m waiting for our "clever" operators to take care of it - to remove habitable modules from the complexes and control them remotely like on MIM-104, place them on trailers.
              Each time a broken "shell" is a dead crew, a destroyed tractor.
              As if cables and rugged laptops hadn't been invented yet ...

              Trailers and cables are the time of rolling and deployment. Precious time, which may not be enough before the defeat of the "lighted" complex by artillery fire, MLRS, OTR, etc.
              They are still permissible in the country's air defense, for the DD air defense system. But for short-range systems - the faster you run away after being exposed, the longer you will live.
              Remove cables and control over the radio? So the requirements for the quality and reliability of communication will inflate the equipment from the operator's side to "transportable".
              1. Dmitry V.
                Dmitry V. 23 October 2020 14: 22
                +1
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Remove cables and control over the radio? so the requirements for the quality and reliability of communication will inflate the equipment from the operator's side to "transportable".


                Over the radio - not an option, vulnerability from electronic warfare.
                He wrote somewhere, here on the forum, that the next generations of artillery support systems should be equipped with unmanned systems with automatic loading - a battery and one command post that carries out direct tactical control.
                The systems connecting the tactical command post and the complexes can be controlled via a secure optical channel.
                Similarly, you can organize the work of a tactical ZRAK, with the difference that the information channel is an order of magnitude "thicker", respectively, use fiber-optic cables for control - their price is already approaching the usual one. Pyro-locks for quick disconnection in case of emergency folding.
          2. Dmitry V.
            Dmitry V. 23 October 2020 14: 02
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            In short, return to the mixed composition of anti-aircraft batteries.


            Perhaps it is necessary to calculate the effectiveness of the ZRAK based on Derivation
        2. Falcon5555
          Falcon5555 23 October 2020 13: 41
          0
          Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
          That is, the air defense missile system remains relevant, only with the rearmament to a larger caliber (such as derivation 57 mm) _ + missiles with a range of 15000 m
          But the KS-19 has a caliber of 100 mm and an altitude of just 15 km. And the shells with a radio fuse were already then. True, it is not a fact that they will react to a plywood drone. But they need to be modernized - something like a programmable adult. etc.
          1. Dmitry V.
            Dmitry V. 23 October 2020 14: 10
            +1
            Quote: Falcon5555
            But the KS-19 has a caliber of 100 mm and an altitude of just 15 km.


            The history of WWII showed that nothing is as effective against 88 flasks as attack aircraft - low rate of fire, not effectiveness at short distances.

            A kamikaze drone is nothing more than an attack aircraft, which for some reason is smashed against the target along with the ammunition (let's leave this on the conscience of the cunning Israeli designers and their imitators from the Kalashnikov concern).
            That is, the best remedy against an attack aircraft is an MZA with a caliber of 20-40-57 mm (20 mm of direct impact and 37-40-57 mm - fragmentation with distant detonation).
            Effective range - aimed fire 2500-3500m.
            The range over 3500 m is covered by missiles with a launch range of 12000-15000 m - this is the logic of building layered air defense.
            1. Falcon5555
              Falcon5555 23 October 2020 14: 42
              0
              Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
              The history of WWII showed that nothing is as effective against 88 flasks as attack aircraft - low rate of fire, not effectiveness at short distances.

              Do not prepare for the last war like an ordinary general. smile If the cannon / zen. System has a height limitation, and even worse, if it has a "dead" funnel on top, it can be bombed from a great height by guided munitions, and both drones and manned ammunition can throw them.
              That is, the best remedy against an attack aircraft is an MZA with a caliber of 20-40-57 mm (20 mm of direct impact and 37-40-57 mm - fragmentation with distant detonation).

              I in my first post and wrote:
              And add a smaller caliber cannon for close targets, but not the same as in Pantsir.

              I just meant a small caliber with detonation.
              Pro rockets for over 3500 are possible, but shells, I think, are much cheaper. And this can be combined.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Falcon5555
        Falcon5555 23 October 2020 13: 45
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Add your own radar.
        There, PUAZO already had its own radar station. Now, on the contrary, remove it, or leave it as a backup tool - for very bad weather, for determining the range, for searching for drones by their radiation, etc.
        1. Falcon5555
          Falcon5555 23 October 2020 13: 57
          0
          ... for clear requests and responses.
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 23 October 2020 14: 28
          0
          Quote: Falcon5555
          There, PUAZO already had its own radar station.

          One per battery - SON-4.
          I was probably a little inaccurate - I meant "add your own radar for each weapon"For firing an entire battery at one UAV is overkill. smile
          Quote: Falcon5555
          Now, on the contrary, remove it, or leave it as a backup tool - for very bad weather, for determining the range, for searching for drones by their radiation, etc.

          Millimeter range: good resolution and short range due to fast decay.
          1. Falcon5555
            Falcon5555 23 October 2020 18: 21
            0
            Yes. For everyone. Millimeter range is good. But this radar will still be visible farther than it can see something from the reflections of its signal, so a gift such as an anti-radar missile can fly into it.
      4. Taoist
        Taoist 23 October 2020 21: 27
        0
        IMHO, but you can "little blood." - the gun on the chassis - the drives are there. Modern systems of detection and guidance on a separate chassis, as it were, are already there. - we pair and voila ...
        There are guns. Old tanks or "motolig" also heaped up ... The main thing is that these installations could receive target designation - which, in principle, also exists ... They do not cover the columns on the march ...
  • lvov_aleksey
    lvov_aleksey 22 October 2020 20: 35
    0
    I'll just say as a driver, the problem is not in the car, but in the gasket between the steering wheel and the seat !!!!!
  • Tagan
    Tagan 22 October 2020 20: 54
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    Quote: neri73-r
    Tell this to the guys from Khmeimim! We found that to compare Pantsir and Bendka, completely two different machines in terms of capabilities.

    ... and why are you then trying to compare airplanes made on the knee by miners with tractor drivers with industrially manufactured drones used in Syria, Libya and Azerbaijan?

    Of course, you can be happy that you are jackal against a weak and ill-prepared opponent.
    Be glad that you haven't had any business with the Russian army yet.
  • Artura
    Artura 22 October 2020 22: 12
    0
    Bayraktars began to fall every day !!!!! Armenians received "sweets" in time !!!!! The vaunted drones are kaput !!!!!


  • alexey alexeyev_2
    alexey alexeyev_2 23 October 2020 07: 55
    0
    Was at least one shell with a Russian crew destroyed? As my battalion commander used to say: It was not the reel ... r ... he was sitting in the cockpit. That's the whole story
    1. agond
      agond 23 October 2020 10: 10
      0
      The shell is too large a machine and is easily recognizable for a drone and it cannot be hidden or disguised, therefore, the losses of the Shell will continue, this is impossible, it is necessary to divide the rocket cannon system into two, one cannon the other rocket and installed on smaller cars, Ideally, one should strive to ensure that it would be difficult to determine the purpose of a particular machine by its appearance, neither the missiles nor the barrels of the guns should constantly stick out in different directions, it would be better to place the radar antenna not on the mast, but to raise it with an unmanned helicopter connected by a dog to the earth.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 23 October 2020 11: 56
        +3
        Quote: agond
        The carapace is too big a machine and is easily recognizable for a drone and it cannot be hidden or disguised, therefore, the losses of the Carapace will continue, this is not possible

        It is impossible to put separate machines without mutual cover and linking into the system. You can't work from one position for a long time. You cannot leave cars on reloading and during a change of position without cover. It is impossible to organize an air defense of an object without taking into account the possible order of forces "from the other side" - when the reload simply does not keep up with the consumption.
        Air defense is strong in planning and system. Without them, separate weapons and vehicles are just targets for a competent enemy.
  • 9 Shaft
    9 Shaft 23 October 2020 12: 32
    0
    The situation showed that drones entered the life of the military faster than CDs instead of cassettes in civilian life. They were not fully prepared for this, and all of them. It is not known how Turkey would have sang if it had received a swarm of drones in its ass.
    There is always a decent nut for a cunning bolt)))))))
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 23 October 2020 13: 01
    0
    Spending on a UAV or a kamikaze loitering drone, worth $ 10000, or a missile worth $ 20000, will not go broke for long.
    The artillery component must necessarily be in a complex designed to combat subsonic UAVs - for self-defense against kamikaze drones, like a missile one, for intercepting at distances outside the effective artillery fire, for covering an area or destroying a UAV with missile weapons.
  • 72jora72
    72jora72 23 October 2020 13: 53
    0
    And "the last handful of land" on the air defense systems of the Russian Federation, according to Turkish media, was thrown by the Azerbaijani military in Nagorno-Karabakh.
    And what have Karabakh, Azerbaijanis and the Russian air defense system to do with it?
  • Boa kaa
    Boa kaa 24 October 2020 22: 29
    0
    Quote: venik
    for use in the battalion-regimental level!

    Sorry for the indiscreet question:
    And why was the "Pine" developed then? Maybe not for escort (cover) on the march of the columns? But they said it was expensive and refused. And the ranges were up to 10 km. The UAV would be enough.
    However, in this I am not special. You know better from the trench.
    1. agond
      agond 26 October 2020 19: 08
      0
      Quote: Alexey RA
      It is impossible to put separate machines without mutual cover and linking into the system. You can't work from one position for a long time. You cannot leave cars on reloading and during a change of position without cover. It is impossible to organize an air defense of an object without taking into account the possible order of forces "from the other side" - when the reload simply does not keep up with the consumption.
      Air defense is strong in planning and system. Without them, separate weapons and vehicles are just targets for a competent enemy.

      I completely and completely agree with you, but reducing the size of the machines and giving them a uniform appearance will be beneficial,
      about a change in position, if the missiles are not concentrated in 4 pieces on one machine, but hid them one by one in lying containers in the bushes or the forest, then they do not need a change of position, in principle, since they are difficult to find and then they all together cover some stationary object why move far away from it