Military Review

Rome and Carthage: first clash

211
Rome and Carthage: first clash

And Carthage, and Rome in the IV century BC. e. was lucky to stay away from the great campaigns of Alexander the Great. The conqueror's gaze fell to the East, where his victorious armies went. Early death of 32-year-old Alexander in June 323 BC e. led to the collapse of his state, the fragments of which were involved in the brutal wars of the Diadochs (successor commanders). And the diadochi also had little to do with Carthage and Rome: they divided and took away from each other the kingdoms and provinces that had already been conquered.


Echoes of a distant thunderstorm


The echoes of those events were still heard in the west.

The first of these was the fall of the ancient metropolis of the Phoenicians - the city of Tire, captured by Alexander after a seven-month siege in 332 BC. e. And this did not become a tragedy for Carthage, which was originally an absolutely independent Phoenician colony founded by fugitives from Tire. It happened back in 825-823 BC. BC, when, after the rebellion of the priest Melkat Akherb, his widow (and the king's sister) Elissa was forced to flee with the people loyal to her to the west. Here, on the North African coast of the Mediterranean Sea, the "New City" - Carthage was founded. After the death of Elissa, due to the absence of other members of the royal family, power in Carthage passed to the ten princeps.

At first, Carthage had almost no land of its own, engaging in intermediary trade and paying tribute to the surrounding tribes. In the XNUMXth century BC. e. a new group of colonists from Tire arrived in Carthage, which at that time was threatened by the powerful Assyria. From that time on, the gradual expansion of Carthage to neighboring lands begins: it subjugates previously free territories and the old Phoenician colonies. Gradually, the northern coast of Africa, including the lands beyond Gibraltar, the southwestern part of Spain, Corsica, a significant part of Sardinia and the Balearic Islands, the former Phoenician colonies in Sicily, the islands between Sicily and Africa, as well as the important cities of Utica and Hades. The fall of Tire under the blow of Alexander's troops not only did not worsen the position of Carthage, but, on the contrary, gave a new impetus to development and expansion, since, on the one hand, this state lost a powerful competitor, and on the other, it received a new wave of culturally and mentally close refugees from Levant, who brought with them considerable funds and replenished the population of Carthage and its colonies.

And the wars of the Diadochi threw out to the west only one "prominence", which turned out to be the second cousin of Alexander the Great on his mother - the Epirus king Pyrrhus. He was born 4 years after the death of the great Tsar Alexander, and, naturally, he did not enter the narrow circle of Diadochi, but managed to take part in their wars. We see seventeen-year-old Pyrrhus in the army of Demetrius Poliorketus and his father Antigonus One-Eyed.

In the decisive battle of Ipsus in Asia Minor (301 BC), the allies were defeated by the troops of Seleucus, Ptolemy, Lysimachus and Cassander, but Pyrrhus's detachment retained their positions. Voluntarily volunteering to become a hostage to Ptolemy, Pyrrhus was right: he managed to win the trust of this diadoch and even married his stepdaughter. With Ptolemy's help, he managed to regain the throne of Epirus. In the future, Pyrrhus tried to gain a foothold in Macedonia, but in the end, having received from another challenger (Ptolemy Keravnos) ransoms in the amount of five thousand foot soldiers, four thousand horsemen and fifty elephants, he went to "Great Greece", namely to Tarentum. So he managed to fight both against the Romans and against the Carthaginians, and his military campaign became a kind of prologue to the First Punic War. How? Now let's try to figure it out.

Prologue to the First Punic War


The fact is that in those days, between the possessions of Rome and Carthage, the rich policies of the so-called Magna Graecia were still located, but the Greek colonies here were already on the decline. Unable to defend themselves, they relied mainly on mercenaries for military affairs, the last of whom was Pyrrhus. The Tarentians invited him to war against Rome. Pyrrhus inflicted some very painful defeats on the proud queerites, but he did not have the resources to defeat Rome (this young predator, gaining strength). The most amazing thing is that, realizing this (and losing interest in further war), Pyrrhus did not go home, but transferred the hostilities to Sicily, where other Greeks, from Syracuse, promised the royal crown to one of his sons. The problem was that the Greeks controlled only the south of Sicily, the north-western part of the island had long belonged to Carthage, and in the northeast, dismissed Campanian mercenaries, calling themselves the "tribe of Mars" (Marmetins), were conveniently located in the northeast. These gallant guys, returning home, caught the eye of the city of Messana (modern Messina), which they captured, apparently deciding that it "lies badly". They liked this city and its surroundings so much that they didn't want to return home.

As usual, Pyrrhus started very well, pushing the Carthaginian army into the mountains and blocking the Mamertines in Messana. But, as we have already said, he clearly had little manpower and means for such a big policy, and the character of this commander did not tolerate routine work. And then the stubborn Romans again went to the south of Italy. As a result, unable to achieve complete and final success on any of these fronts, a disillusioned Pyrrhus went home to meet his fate - and soon died absurdly during the assault on Argos.


Pierre, bust from Palazzo Pitti, Florence

"What a battlefield we leave to the Romans and the Carthaginians!" He said, he said as he left Sicily.

Pyrrhus's words were prophetic. The war for Sicily between these states began ten years later, in 264 BC. e. AT history she entered under the name of the First Punic.

Carthage and Rome on the eve of the First Punic War



After the evacuation of Pyrrhus's army, the Romans easily subjugated the Greek city-states of southern Italy. And there, behind a narrow strait, is the large fertile island of Sicily, which the Carthaginians, the Greeks of Syracuse and the Campanian mercenaries not finished by Pyrrhus could not divide. And they all did not yet understand that the owner of the land, on which the favorable gaze of the Roman fell, there can be only one, and the happiness of all peoples is in submission to the great Rome.

Meanwhile, the arrogant Carthaginians already considered Sicily their "legitimate" prey, hoping sooner or later to take it under their control. But to the Romans who had established themselves in southern Italy, this island also did not seem superfluous. And the reason for the intervention was unexpectedly given by the ill-fated Marmetins, who, pressed by the Greeks, turned for help both to Rome and Carthage. Both those and others appeared. At the same time, Rome violated the terms of the peace treaty of 306 BC. e., according to which the Roman troops could not land in Sicily, and the Carthaginian - in Italy. But Roman lawyers said that the warships of Carthage during one of Pyrrhus's campaigns had already entered the harbor of the Italic Tarentum, so now the Roman legionnaires can also enter Sicily.

The first to come to Messana were the Carthaginians. However, then some strange story happened when, during negotiations with the arriving Romans, the Carthaginian commander Gannon was suddenly arrested. It is believed that the Romans captured him during a city meeting and tortured him into ordering the troops to leave the city. Later they let him go, but on the way to the Carthaginian possessions, Gannon was crucified by his own soldiers, who clearly considered him the culprit of their shame. And the Romans took the first step to capture the island, establishing themselves in Messana.

First Punic War


The alarmed Syracuse and Carthage, forgetting about the old enmity, entered into an anti-Roman alliance, which, however, did not last long. The successes of the Romans, to whose side the Greek cities of Sicily began to go over, forced the ruler of Syracuse, Hieron, to come to an agreement with Rome: prisoners were freed, an indemnity was paid, besides, Syracuse undertook an obligation to supply the legions with food.

In Syracuse, by the way, then the famous Archimedes lived and worked, and it was Hieron who instructed him to check his crown for the purity of the gold from which it was made, thereby contributing to the discovery of the law of hydrostatics. But the famous cars that caused so many problems for the Roman the fleet ("claws" of his name and "fire ray") Archimedes created another time - during the Second Punic War.

And we'll go back to the time of the First. After Syracuse went over to the side of Rome, the position of the Carthaginians became truly desperate, but they defended the city of Akragant for seven months, and the Romans took it with great difficulty.

So, during the first three years of the war, the Romans won victories on land, but they could not achieve complete victory largely due to the fact that their commanders changed every year, and the Greeks of the captured cities began to come to the conclusion that under the Punians they lived much better.

Then Carthage changed tactics, its numerous ships began to devastate the coast of Italy and destroy the oncoming merchant ships.


Carthaginian heptera

The Romans could not wage an equal fight at sea due to the lack of their own fleet of warships. The ships they had were mainly owned by the allies and were used only to transport troops. Moreover, Rome did not have the technology of military shipbuilding at that time. According to Polybius, a case helped the Romans to start the production of warships: one of the Carthaginian ships, run aground, was left by the crew. The Romans dragged this "gift" to the shore, and the construction of the navy began on its model. Moreover, the pace of its creation was simply amazing. Flor reports:

"60 days after the forest was cut down, a fleet of 160 ships was at anchor."


Roman quinquerema

In parallel with the construction of ships on the shore, crews were being trained: future rowers sat at the oars on mock-ups of ships.

Carthage had another problem: there was no regular army in this state at that time: mercenaries were recruited instead.


Warriors of Carthage during the First Punic War

But the Romans, as we can see, solved their problem with the fleet, and very quickly. But Carthage never created a regular army, continuing to rely on mercenaries.

So, Rome had a fleet, it was time to put it into action, but the very first sea expedition of the Romans ended in embarrassment: 17 ships of the consul Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio, entering the Lipapa harbor, were blocked by 20 Carthaginian ships. The Romans did not dare to enter the sea battle, and the coastline was also in the hands of the enemy. The result was an inglorious surrender. But a few days later, a clash of two fleets on the high seas took place, and the Carthaginians suffered heavy losses. However, the real shock awaited the Carthaginian fleet in the battle at Cape Mila (the northern coast of Sicily). Here in 260 BC. e. 130 Carthaginian ships attacked Roman ships equipped with a previously unknown device - boarding bridges ("raven"), through which the legionnaires burst onto the decks of enemy ships.


Boarding "raven", reconstruction

Thus, the Romans actually managed to turn a naval battle, where they felt insecure, into a land battle, in which they then had no equal. The Carthaginians were not ready for boarding battles and lost 50 ships, the rest fled. As a result, the consul Gaius Duilius was the first to be awarded a triumph for a naval battle. He also received another, very extravagant award: now, when returning from the feast, he was to be accompanied by a torch-bearer and a musician.

It should be said that the boarding "raven" significantly impaired the maneuverability of ships, this was especially noticeable during a storm. Therefore, with the improvement of the quality of rowing training, the Romans began to abandon their invention, preferring now to ram enemy ships.


Bronze ram of a Roman ship found on the seabed off the Aegadian Islands

The Carthaginian fleet suffered an even more terrible defeat in 256 BC. e. at Cape Eknom (southwest Sicily): 330 Roman ships attacked 350 Carthaginian ships, capturing 64 and sinking 30 of them. The losses of the Romans amounted to only 24 ships.

After that, the hostilities were transferred to Africa. Carthage was already ready for many concessions, but the consul Mark Atilius Regulus, who commanded the Roman troops, put forward completely unacceptable demands. In the end, he was defeated by the Carthaginians who mobilized all their forces, who, moreover, suddenly found a good commander among the new party of mercenaries - the Spartan Xanthippus. In the Battle of Tunet, the Romans were defeated, and Regulus was even captured along with 500 legionnaires. Before the Second Punic War, this defeat was one of the most severe in the history of Rome.

However, in the summer of 255, the Romans won another victory at sea, capturing 114 enemy ships in battle and evacuating the remnants of Regulus' legions from Africa. But then black times came for the Roman fleet. Initially, off the southern coast of Sicily, a storm sank 270 out of 350 ships. Three months later, the surviving ships, along with 220 new ones, fell into a new storm, losing 150 ships. Then the Romans were defeated in a naval battle near the Sicilian city of Drepan, and another storm destroyed the remnants of their fleet. All the fruits of previous victories were lost. In 247 BC. e. the troops of Carthage in Sicily finally got an intelligent commander, who became Hamilcar Barca, the father of the famous Hannibal. By that time, in Sicily, Carthage had only two cities under his control (Lilybey and Drepan), blocked by Roman troops. But Hamilcar transferred part of the army to Mount Herktu near the city of Panorma on the northern coast of Sicily. From the camp set up here, he constantly disturbed the territories subject to Rome.

So he fought for five years, and in 244 BC. e. he even managed to capture the city of Eriks, and the Carthaginian fleet dominated the sea at this time. There was no money for the construction of new ships in the Roman treasury, but the citizens of the republic built 200 new five-deck ships at their own expense. In March 241 BC. e. this fleet at the Aegadian Islands defeated the Carthaginian squadron, sinking 50 and capturing 70 enemy ships.


Battle of the Aegadian Islands in 241 BC BC, reconstruction, Maritime Museum of Favignana

The situation turned upside down, and the now lost Carthage fleet was forced to enter into negotiations, the outcome of which was the conclusion of peace with Rome, the price of which was the concession of Sicily and the surrounding islands and the payment of a huge indemnity (3200 talents).


Roman possessions after the First Punic War

In addition, Carthage agreed to free the Roman prisoners free of charge, but had to ransom his own. In addition, the Carthaginians had to pay for the right to evacuate the army from Sicily. And Hamilcar Barka was forced to sign this treaty, whom Mommsen later called "the undefeated commander of a defeated nation." Carthage practically had no opportunity to fight, Hamilcar could do nothing, except raise his sons in a spirit of hatred of Rome and convey to them his revanchist sentiments.

This is how the First Punic War ended, the results of which did not suit either side and which became only the threshold of new bloody battles, the first step in the great struggle between Rome and Carthage for dominion in the Mediterranean.
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Articles from this series:
Ryzhov V.A.The shadow of the great Alexander
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  1. Catfish
    Catfish 24 October 2020 07: 02
    12
    "Carthago delenda est" ... that's all.
    Thank you, Valery, the article is, as always, at a high level. good
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 08: 53
      +6
      Carthago delenda est, Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse

      "Carthage must be destroyed" Cato the Censor.
  2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 07: 04
    11
    Unexpectedly ... Thank you!
    The only moment. Valery, if you take into the world situation in the Mediterranean, globally, before the birth of Alexander the Great, Athens attempted to attack Syracuse! True enough unfortunate. Carthage then acted as an observer - they did not agree on the price.
    Well, about the "crow". The ram was a common attribute of any warship of that era. He was not introduced or returned, he was before and after the "quintus". According to Plutarch and the Greek contemporaries of those events, the "raven" survived as a weapon until the second Punic War.
    The wrecks of the Roman fleets from storms and bad weather are more associated with the damp forest they used for their ships. Well, not the ability to fight at sea.
    By the way, "kamikaze" with the mass destruction of ships happened before and after the Punic Wars. Some in power even became famous for the fact that "they punished the waters with whips", as a rule, they did not beckon!
    Regards, Vlad!
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 24 October 2020 10: 17
      +8
      Suddenly...
      Well, why?
      It's just that Valery hasn't turned to the history of the Ancient World for a long time. And so the number of materials on this topic, behind his authorship, is approaching ten.
      1. VLR
        24 October 2020 10: 35
        +9
        Yes, especially everyone liked, I remember, two articles entitled "This is Sparta!" (Parts 1 & 2): Read if you missed.

        https://topwar.ru/153463-jeto-sparta-chast-i.html

        и

        https://topwar.ru/153758-jeto-sparta-chast-ii.html
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 10: 40
          +4
          I remember, but some do not.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 12: 11
            +3
            Why do you think that I missed Valery's work on ancient Greece?
            I just expected a lot from Valery, but did not expect a lot about the Punic Wars!
            If I’m Anton, I would add to “unexpected” the word “nice”, even the phrase “very nice”! Does this level your arguments?
            hi
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 24 October 2020 12: 37
              +1
              Vlad! hi
              If you "add", then "levels". laughing
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 12: 55
                +3
                A plus sign !!! laughing
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 24 October 2020 13: 12
                  +2
                  Thanks buddy! But somehow I somehow feel that I have already "outgrown" this resource ...
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 24 October 2020 13: 42
                    +4
                    Wrote in another topic. I repeat
                    In connection with the death ("freezing") of Warhead, I would like to see Makhov and Kozlenko here at VO. It would be nice for the administration to hurry up
                    I need fresh blood
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 24 October 2020 13: 59
                      +1
                      I think that none of the authors of "varheda" will be published on "topvar".
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 24 October 2020 14: 08
                        +2
                        Why?
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 24 October 2020 14: 14
                        +3
                        Because, in the opinion of users of "varheda", the level of "topvar" is one line higher than the level of the resource "Answersmail.ru"
                      3. Engineer
                        Engineer 24 October 2020 14: 20
                        +5
                        Well this is snobbery.
                        On the other hand, the aspirations of the authors are more important here. Makhov even tried to log into Yandex Zen. And its level is exactly lower than that of VO. That is, just monetize hobbies. Therefore, writing articles on VO on a regular basis may well be an option.
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 24 October 2020 14: 33
                        +4
                        Among commentators, unambiguous snobbery!
                        Penetration into the regular structure of the VO is still fun. I think none of the authors of "varheda" will even bother. On these conditions, they live well in LJ.
                      5. Engineer
                        Engineer 24 October 2020 14: 37
                        +4
                        The VO administration should get confused and take a step forward.
                        They seem to be resting on the laurels of the most visited Internet resource on military topics. And this very quickly leads to degradation. Development must be constant.
                      6. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 24 October 2020 14: 49
                        +4
                        Sorry, Denis, on this topic I can only communicate by mail.
                      7. Engineer
                        Engineer 24 October 2020 14: 54
                        +3
                        No problem, there are subtleties everywhere.
              2. Operator
                Operator 24 October 2020 14: 34
                0
                And users in the Bose of the deceased Warhead know where they need to put their opinion about VO? laughing
        2. Operator
          Operator 24 October 2020 14: 31
          +3
          I vote with all my limbs for Kozlenko (I have not read Makhov's articles, but I approve) laughing

          Yes - and Rich would be good to return.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 24 October 2020 14: 37
            +4
            Oh god, we are on the same side with the Operator.
            Maybe the idea is really worthwhile)
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 24 October 2020 14: 59
            +5
            "Amazing is near" (C)
            Join us!
        3. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 15: 02
          +4
          Fu, Andrey! Well, you have good Russian! What kind of "Rich'ya" ?????
        4. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 17: 42
          +6
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          Fu, Andrey! Well, you have good Russian! What kind of "Rich'ya" ?????

          It's really sad without Dima.
        5. Phil77
          Phil77 24 October 2020 18: 00
          +6
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          It's really sad without Dima.

          Greetings Vlad!
          For Dima, it's just frankly insulting, good knowledge, good comments, a good person. And suddenly ... Bam! An absurd reason and * removal until the end of the game *! Ugly.
          He does not get in touch, alas. hi
        6. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 19: 51
          +5
          I will reveal a terrible secret. Vlad, a year ago, was banned on the same "wave".
        7. bubalik
          bubalik 24 October 2020 20: 05
          +7

          3x3zsave
          Today, 20: 51

          belay"straight" Secrets of the Madrid court "when you have time for everything? request
        8. Korsar4
          Korsar4 24 October 2020 20: 20
          +4
          "And dive into fountains and fight at dances"?
        9. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 20: 26
          +4
          Sergey, I will reveal a terrible secret ...
          Let it be somewhat banal ...
          And not adequate to the classics ...
          But, "we are responsible for those who were not sent on time" laughing
        10. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 20: 30
          +6
          Do you smell it, Sergei? Now all the comrades will trample on me.
        11. bubalik
          bubalik 24 October 2020 20: 37
          +7
          comrades will trample on me.

          ,,, an oxymoron of some kind request laughing
        12. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 21: 00
          +4
          Not an oxymoron, the burden of a jester ...
          Those who applauded yesterday will spit on the stage tomorrow.
        13. Korsar4
          Korsar4 24 October 2020 21: 10
          +3
          “Here, as to the Pigalle dance,
          You have to lie with fun -
          Longing will not convince anyone "(c).
        14. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 21: 12
          +3
          Exactly!
        15. bubalik
          bubalik 24 October 2020 21: 24
          +3
          Sergey, if you are on Prose.ru, it's you
          Korsar4, I just have no words good good good !!
        16. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 21: 32
          +4
          As always...
          "It's just that Seryozhka came,
          We played a little "(C)
        17. Korsar4
          Korsar4 24 October 2020 21: 51
          +3
          “And on his pipe, like a kettle, hot,
          Sighs heavily ... "(c).
        18. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 21: 54
          +3
          Hmm, this day turned out to be somehow gloomy ...
        19. Korsar4
          Korsar4 24 October 2020 22: 34
          +3
          Was in the woods. The day is warm for October.
          And you can disperse the clouds. Baron Munchausen is an example.
        20. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 22: 41
          +4
          It's not about the clouds, it's about the mood ...
        21. Korsar4
          Korsar4 24 October 2020 22: 47
          +3
          I was thinking: is it possible to influence this?
        22. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 22: 52
          +3
          Well, you can probably. All my life I didn’t like autumn .... And I recently realized: I like it! I'm getting old, apparently ...
        23. Korsar4
          Korsar4 24 October 2020 22: 58
          +4
          Autumn is softer. For myself, at 25 I realized this.
        24. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 23: 07
          +4
          And spring has always impressed me.
          And suddenly, hitting! Literally, within a week I realized my affection for autumn ...
        25. Korsar4
          Korsar4 24 October 2020 23: 13
          +3
          I, too, initially liked spring more. And I still enjoy her.
        26. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 23: 25
          +4
          I am a northern animal and can smell melt water through my nostrils.
        27. Korsar4
          Korsar4 25 October 2020 05: 31
          +2
          “We love everything:
          And the heat of cold numbers
          And the gift of divine visions ”(c).
  3. Phil77
    Phil77 25 October 2020 07: 21
    +4
    Quote: Korsar4
    Autumn is softer.

    Good morning!
    Autumn? I like it. Beautiful. This multicolored foliage, drizzling rain, the sky with low floating clouds. I used to love to walk in Tsaritsyno, there was some inexplicable charm of abandonment. Ruins of the palace, sleeping ponds, age-old trees. Now I don’t like. Why? Well, everything is licked, a new building, and there are a lot of people. That is such a Sunday mood! Lyrical. hi
  4. Phil77
    Phil77 25 October 2020 07: 25
    +3
    Quote: Phil77
    Lyrical.

  5. Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 October 2020 07: 41
    +4
    By the way, I was not really either in Tsaritsyno or in Kolomenskoye.
  6. Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 October 2020 07: 39
    +3
    I just love the Moscow streets:

    “Go on foot, with a young step
    Free semi-colony for everyone ”(c).
  7. Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 October 2020 21: 32
    +3
    No. On "Poems.ru". So words can be.
  8. bubalik
    bubalik 24 October 2020 21: 56
    +6
    - Not mogёm, but mogem (s) well done!
    [quote] [Poems.ru /, [quote] ,, just like that.
    Just delight hi
    [quote] Luchok to help you,
    We wish you good luck! [/ Quote], are we coming back at 90?
  9. The comment was deleted.
  10. bubalik
    bubalik 24 October 2020 22: 17
    +6
    ,, with your experience, you at least could issue a series on VO on some topic. So do not shirk, but write. Will wait. Anton
    3x3zsave

    I ask you to finish your article, which you announced a year ago, bring Nikolay, if necessary. am , to go nuts, did I turn on the boss? request somehow we are waiting for all our
    Are there many of us in the city? - asked Ostap bluntly.

    , I'm not afraid of this word, in a circle. The ball is by your side tongue
  11. Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 October 2020 22: 40
    +3
    Anything can be. But very slowly.
    I admire those who give out products to the mountain.

    "That such people would be
    And condemn: write, write, write ”(c).
  12. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 25 October 2020 00: 46
    +4
    "Nails would be made of these people!
    There would not be better nails in the world! (FROM)
  13. Lexus
    Lexus 25 October 2020 00: 54
    10
    Hi, hello! hi
    "Zavklubovskaya" flock may be offended. laughing drinks
  14. Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 October 2020 05: 33
    +4
    “Feat, motionless,
    And there is something heroic in this ”(c).
  15. Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 October 2020 06: 01
    +4
    "Wise technique" even censors the words of the burgomaster.
  16. Phil77
    Phil77 25 October 2020 09: 19
    +4
    Quote: Korsar4
    "Wise technique"

    * Leo decided to put on high boots.
    What's the problem?
    Only for a connoisseur of Latin
    didn't find a clue. *
    Sergey? Got something to say? wink
  17. Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 October 2020 11: 17
    +2
    This loose tip to remember: "Ex ungue leonem".
  18. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 25 October 2020 00: 21
    +2
    Nikolay in my topics, "not an ear, not a snout", as I am in his.
  19. Phil77
    Phil77 25 October 2020 07: 04
    +4
    Quote: bubalik
    Prose.ru,

    And me ?! I also want to read!

    Give the data!
  20. Doliva63
    Doliva63 25 October 2020 21: 19
    +2
    Quote: Phil77
    Quote: bubalik
    Prose.ru,

    And me ?! I also want to read!

    Give the data!

    Photo - class! good
  21. bubalik
    bubalik 24 October 2020 21: 12
    +5
    we are responsible for those who were not sent on time

    ,,Do good and throw it into the water. It will not disappear - it will return kindly to you! (C) ,,, Anton, this cannot be fixed. No.
  22. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 October 2020 21: 17
    +3
    That's right, but I can't wait.
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 25 October 2020 21: 03
    +2
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    The wrecks of the Roman fleets from storms and bad weather are more associated with the damp forest they used for their ships.

    Well, this is unlikely. Damp wood affects the durability of ships, and numerous Roman catastrophes in a storm is a consequence of the construction of the ships of that time. Generally speaking, all these famous triremes and triremes are punt with a high center of gravity. Any storm from birth is contraindicated for them, only in ideal weather it is possible at sea.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 October 2020 22: 32
      +3
      In the first Punic, the Roman fleet was mainly "five". Damp wood in the cladding with end-to-end dowels does not hold its shape and gives a leak. The board gets wet and cracks under load. The dowel loses its shape from getting wet and the boards diverge.
      Although serious wrecks are directly related to navigation errors and the inability of the consuls and tribunes to manage the fleets. This, in addition to those mentioned by WWI and earlier by Liam (high mecentric altitude and crows. hi
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 26 October 2020 00: 52
        +2
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Damp wood in the cladding with end-to-end dowels does not hold its shape and gives a leak. The board gets wet and cracks under load.

        Does it leak into the storm? You are right, of course, raw wood is not the best material for ships, but the loss of the Romans is directly related to bad weather, and this is still more of a design problem. It is no coincidence that they never tried to copy triremes in the northern seas, it is just that there is no good weather at all.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 24 October 2020 07: 30
    +6
    And Carthage, and Rome in the IV century BC. e. was lucky to stay away from the great campaigns of Alexander the Great.
    .... Alexander Filippovich was attracted by the rich East, came, saw, robbed, and not yet a beggar West.
    1. VLR
      24 October 2020 07: 39
      15
      For Macedonia and Greece, it would be much better if the goal of Alexander's campaigns was elementary plunder. But no - he was trying to build an empire. As a result, a huge number of young healthy men left Macedonia and Greece, and with him, and after him: the diadochi and their heirs, in their pieces of the failed empire, preferred to rely on compatriots, and not on suspicious natives. In the same Ptolemaic Egypt, all officials were Macedonians or Hellenes, and the army was recruited only from them. The "natives" only paid the bills. And soon Macedonia and Hellas simply "torn apart" and became depopulated, they were themselves conquered and became the outskirts of stronger and richer states.
      1. Liam
        Liam 24 October 2020 10: 09
        +1
        Here in 260 BC. e. 130 Carthaginian ships attacked Roman ships equipped with a previously unknown device - boarding bridges ("raven"), along which the legionnaires burst onto the decks of enemy ships
        .
        Modern researchers of the history of the Roman fleet are sure that the "Raven" is nothing more than a fantasy of Polybius
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 24 October 2020 11: 01
          +5
          Modern, who is this? No trick question.
          Are Connolly and Goldsworthy modern? They are for the crow.
          Tarn considered the raven to be fiction. Lump Man. But he is no longer modern
          1. Liam
            Liam 24 October 2020 11: 10
            +1
            Quote: Engineer
            who is this?


            One of the most profound modern connoisseurs and researchers of the fleet of Ancient Rome and naval battles of that period, the retired admiral Domenico Carro (http://www.romaeterna.org/vitae.htm) who wrote dozens of books on this topic, a list of which you will find there and is published in the most serious specialized publications on naval topics.
            Here is a condensed article in the specialized magazine la rivista bimestrale
            Lega Navale (Anno CXV, numero 3-4 - Marzo-Aprile 2012) one of the chapters of which is dedicated to this particular "raven" (about which only the Greek Polybius writes by the way, Roman sources know nothing about the "raven" ... although it would seem ) -http: //www.romaeterna.org/roma/arrembaggio.html
            In short, it was impossible to use this device for maneuvering ships
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 24 October 2020 11: 20
              +3
              OK thanks
            2. Engineer
              Engineer 24 October 2020 11: 59
              +4
              I read it by a mashperovod
              The author does not make such an unambiguous conclusion about the "invention of Polybius".
              He notes that Polybius mentions ravens when he tells of the battles of Milazzo (Mila) and Eknome. And then no.
              La sparizione dei corvi dopo due sole apparizioni and stata recentemente messa in relazione con la notevole diminuzione di stabilità provocata dalla loro imponente mole, a prora delle quinqueremi, compromettendo la sicurezza di queste navi rando sicure violenta di queste navi rando s la tomana violenta di queste navi rando s la tomana violentta Sicilia e subm un gravissimo naufragio (255 aC)

              The disappearance of the crows after two appearances and was recently introduced due to a noticeable decrease in directional stability caused by their impressive size, on the bow of the quinqueremi, endangering the safety of these ships when the Roman fleet imbatté in a heavy storm in the Strait of Sicily and received a serious shipwreck ( 255 aC)

              Further there is a reference to the philological analysis of the passage under Milazzo. And that the corvus was supposedly invented by the defeated Punia admiral. But a question to the author, what about Eknom then ?? Who invented the corvus there?
              Preliminary summary. The author does not deny the corvus. He doubts. He notes the limited mentions (Polybius and only for the first two battles) and the shortcomings of the device
              1. Liam
                Liam 24 October 2020 12: 12
                0
                Try to translate this passage.

                Questa apparecchiatura, dalla dubbia attendibilità storica, è stata presentata come l'espediente mediante il quale i Romani poterono sconfiggere la flotta punica senza combattere una vera e propria battaglia navale ma solo una sottosperestcie di. Combattimento
                Naturalmente chiunque abbia una minima esperienza navale non può credere a questa favoletta, anche perché un attrezzo del genere, ancorché utilizzato con perfetto tempismo, avrebbe potuto assolvere la sua funzione soltanto nelle situazioni cinematiche più favorevoli, ovvero quando la nave romana e la nave diservo vittima stessero grossoà mod. navigando In tali condizioni, la passerella, agganciandosi ai bastingaggi della nave avversaria, avrebbe effettivamente potuto rendere inevitabile l'abbordaggio. Per contro, se le due navi avessero navigato con rotte nettamente divergenti o addirittura di controbordo, la velocità relativa, associata alla cospicua forza d'inerzia delle quinqueremi, avrebbe certamente provocato lo scardinamento dell'attrezzo
                .
                And in particular the highlighted phrase:

                Naturally, anyone with minimal maritime experience cannot believe in this bike.
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 24 October 2020 12: 17
                  +3
                  Translated already
                  This equipment is of questionable historical accuracy, and was presented as a trick with which the Romans could defeat the Punic fleet without fighting a real naval battle, but only a subspecies of ground combat.
                  Of course, anyone with minimal naval experience could not believe this tale, even because such an instrument, even used with perfect time, could perform its function only in the most favorable kinematic situations, that is, when the Roman ship and the injured ship were already floating approximately intact

                  In context, it looks like the bike is not the raven itself, but the words of Polybius that the Romans turned a naval battle into a land battle thanks to him. But this is the usual Greek rhetoric, there is nothing to argue about.
                  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 13: 06
                    +4
                    On my own behalf, I will add - retired admiral Domenico Carro is a rather odious person who denies the "crow" out of personal conviction that the Romans (Italians) are a maritime nation and won victories at sea, by naval techniques, and not by land traditions !!!
                    However, he has enough opponents in his homeland, though Liam does not mention them !!!
                    By the way, Liam has the right to his point of view, I also sometimes hide behind the captain of the first rank Dotsenko !!!
                    1. Liam
                      Liam 24 October 2020 14: 20
                      0
                      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                      retired admiral Domenico Carro is a rather odious person,

                      I have no idea what kind of personality Admiral Carro is. I only read his professional studies on ancient Roman naval topics. You are undoubtedly more savvy in assessing his personality and professionalism and share your sources of knowledge about him and the rest of the forum users.
                      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                      However, he has enough opponents in his homeland, though Liam does not mention them !!!

                      It will not be difficult to point out these opponents and your sources of knowledge about them, as well as to give their justified criticism at least on this issue. I personally do not know anything like that and will gladly fill this gap in my modest knowledge.
                  2. Liam
                    Liam 24 October 2020 13: 19
                    0
                    Quote: Engineer
                    In context it looks like

                    Perhaps the automatic translation does not convey the meaning of what was written well. The author unambiguously calls the history of this device a bike, describes how and who got it, all its technical and practical meaninglessness and impossibility of using it. The paragraph about cinematography has been translated rather superficially. The author wrote there that this garbage is really impossible was used, but only in staged form - ships without movement and at a certain angle to each other, which can only be in the cinema)
      2. parusnik
        parusnik 24 October 2020 10: 30
        +2
        The Romans were more practical, Sicily attracted as a granary, Iberia (Spain) with its silver mines, the conquests were more consistent from an economic point of view ..
      3. Engineer
        Engineer 24 October 2020 10: 53
        +4
        I DO NOT agree, Valery.)
        First, the first ever globalization took place with the participation of Europe and Asia.
        Secondly, Greece was overpopulated and mass resettlement was inevitable
        Third, an unprecedented impulse was given for Hellenic patriotism and self-awareness. Greeks and Macedonians in India and Afghanistan are no joke
        For the Greeks, Hellenism is the brightest period in history. Career opportunities are dizzying, social elevators have worked like never before.
        Global demand for everything Greek from germs to gymnasiums and theaters
        In general, Hellas did not advance beyond the polis organization. Sparta, Thebes and Athens fell into decay even before Alexander. Therefore, Greece could no longer act as a subject of politics. Regardless of Alexander's policy. But they managed to leave such a bright legacy. Thanks to the Macedonian sovereign and its extraordinary population.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 11: 06
          +4
          Denis! hi
          And with what, in fact, do not agree? With the fact that the newly formed states of the Diadochi caused an outflow of the population from Attica?
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 24 October 2020 11: 19
            +3
            Have called. But the polis organization is still uncompetitive compared to the Roman one. The end was predictable no matter how many Greeks left. But thanks to Alexander, the Greeks got a chance to shine for another couple of centuries. Globally

            Shl Greetings, and have a great weekend
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 24 October 2020 11: 39
              +3
              Greetings and have a great weekend
              Mutually!
              However, I do not think that Hellenism makes sense to oppose the Roman culture, because the second, "flesh of the flesh" of the first. Simply, the Roman civilization put up less "environmental resistance" than the Attic civilization, and therefore existed longer, and left an incomparable legacy.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 24 October 2020 11: 45
                +3
                Contrasted culturally? maybe not
                Contrasted in the political? Yes.
                After all, they fought pretty well - Rome against the Hellenistic states

                Greece was still doomed by the course of history
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 24 October 2020 11: 56
                  +3
                  Politically, it's not worth it either. Rome, starting with the classical Greek polis, absorbed all the best ideas of Alexander during the period of the empire.
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 24 October 2020 12: 08
                    +4
                    Alexander did not have intelligible ideas of political arrangement, let alone the best. He crossed a snake and a hedgehog.)
                    He completely stole the idea of ​​satrapies from the defeated Persians.
                    And the Greeks did not want to live in satrapies. They wanted to live in a self-governing polis, where citizens were only Greeks, possibly Macedonians and the most worthy of the barbarians, the degree of dignity of which they would decide for themselves. And these your barbarians are unworthy bydlo.
                    Alexander absolutely did not like it. Up to the fact that he massacred several thousand Greeks who decided to leave one of the Alexandria founded by him on their own
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 24 October 2020 12: 21
                      +4
                      These are not my barbarians, they are our common barbarians. And the idea of ​​a federal empire, "licked" by Alexander from the Persians, was brought into the European mentality by him. Which Rome took advantage of.
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 24 October 2020 12: 31
                        +6
                        The idea of ​​provinces is so obvious that it is difficult to call it borrowed. And with the brains of the Romans was better as for me.
                        Alexander appointed the most distinguished Iranians and Macedonians as satraps. Often with a bit of royal blood. Prepared separatists, so to speak, with his own hands. "Federation" of the smoker
                        In Rome, the Senate appointed proconsuls to the province. For a while... "Federation" of a healthy person)
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 24 October 2020 12: 47
                        +4
                        The idea of ​​provinces is so obvious that it is difficult to call it borrowed.
                        For the average Greek at the time, what an innovative idea it was! Especially considering that Alexander himself was "under-Hellenic".
                      3. Engineer
                        Engineer 24 October 2020 12: 54
                        +3
                        Come on)
                        ... To rule barbarians like barbarians? "How else," the conventional Aristotle and Co. will say
                        Well, not citizens do them, unwashed and untrained
                        That Persia was divided into satrapies the Greeks knew from the time of Herodotus

                        The conversation was about the Romans. Did you borrow Alexander's ideas or not? I think no.
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 24 October 2020 13: 02
                        +3
                        So, Alexander was a student of Aristotle
                      5. Engineer
                        Engineer 24 October 2020 13: 12
                        +3
                        So for this I wrote.
                        Alexander's idea naturally follows from the common Greek. But the implementation is bad, the diadochi tried to fix it by transferring part of the powers of the satraps to other persons so as not to concentrate power in the provinces in one hand
                        The idea of ​​the Roman provinces naturally follows from Roman practice. Here is Scipio in Spain, concludes treaties, reconciles - fights, asserts local leaders. Imposes a tribute. Frees from tribute. Gives the status of friends of the Roman people.
                        Is the war over? Well, let us send a former consul in the rank of proconsul as governor to conquered Spain to do the same, but in peacetime. But only for a while, otherwise he will learn something. Moreover, we will elect him by voting in the Senate. No Hellenistic influence. Everything is rooted in Roman practice.
                      6. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 24 October 2020 13: 39
                        +3
                        Well, what is the essence of the controversy?
                        Is it that national exclusivity in geopolitical politics does not justify itself? I agree.
                        Is it that "federalism" under the auspices of one nation is also "not ice"?
                        I agree.
                        What's next, Denis?
                        Humanity has tried all available forms of community organization. What's next?
                      7. Engineer
                        Engineer 24 October 2020 13: 52
                        +3
                        Well, what is the essence of the controversy?

                        You already have a little about yours.) I wanted to focus the discussion. On the contrary, you are expanding. It's not bad, it just says that everyone is on their own wave.
                        The Roman arrangement was wiser for a number of reasons. It was homegrown and it was "more natural" This can be revealed separately
                        Alexander tried to merge the Hellenes and the non-Hellenes. This is fundamentally impossible, since among the non-Hellenes were the Iranians and, in part, their sworn brothers, the Turanians, an exceptionally viable and talented group of tribes that always claim to be exceptional. And who always wanted their own superpower, even a local one. This can be disclosed separately
                        Humanity has tried all available forms of community organization. What's next?

                        I tried everything, but didn't stop at anything in particular. Except for individual countries, which are quite clear. This can be disclosed separately
                      8. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 24 October 2020 14: 07
                        +4
                        Undoubtedly expanding! Fundamentally, there are two interpenetrating "studies": macrohistory and microhistory. And who, where, when, whom, ... won, this is already the second time.
              2. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 24 October 2020 13: 07
                +3
                Exactly what they borrowed! There were no others, and there are still none.
          2. Operator
            Operator 24 October 2020 14: 41
            +2
            Rome strove to assimilate the inhabitants of its provinces (including through the mass resettlement of colonists from the Apennine Peninsula there), and the Macedonians in their ancient states strove to form a hybrid culture with a minimum of descendants of the conquerors only at the top of society (exactly like the Black Sea Aryans before them).
      4. Deniska999
        Deniska999 24 October 2020 15: 54
        +1
        In fact, it is rather difficult to judge what Alexander was striving for due to his early death. In fact, he did not have time to cement the state he created.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 24 October 2020 16: 47
          +2
          It seems to be quite clear. Syncretic civilization
          The Iranians were accepted into the hetairas and phalangits. Both Iranians and Macedonians were appointed satraps.
          Well, and marriage to Roxane and, especially, Statira and Parysatid. The desire to intermarry with the Achaemenids for legitimization is obvious.
          Shl magnificent rituals, demonstrative oriental luxury and even the institution of eunuchs despised by the Greeks to the heap
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 13: 31
      +2
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Politically, it's not worth it either. Rome, starting with the classical Greek polis, absorbed all the best ideas of Alexander during the period of the empire.

      Anton, this thesis can hardly be applied to Rome!
      Rome borrowed from Hellas, Etruscans, even from Carthage !!! Yes, that sinning with the soul from the whole ecumene and alas forever is the best.
    3. Operator
      Operator 24 October 2020 14: 46
      -2
      Not Greek, but Etruscan (Asia Minor) - originally Rome was a border city of alien Etruscans on the lands of the local tribe of Latins. After the overthrow of the Etruscan kings in Rome, an oligarchy of the elders of the clans of the Latins began to rule (the Senate is derived from Senex - old man).
  • VLR
    24 October 2020 11: 23
    +2
    Moreover, passionate people were leaving - the most active, courageous, desperate, as well as the most skillful and skillful, since the level of "salaries" offered by the descendants of Ptolemy, Seleucus and others was much higher than at home, as well as the opportunities for staff growth. But especially tragic was the outflow of people from the small and not too populated Macedonia, which did not "take off", although it had every chance of becoming the center of a large and strong state.
    1. Operator
      Operator 24 October 2020 14: 51
      +1
      The best pay for the colonists in the ancient Macedonian states were based on the massive robbery of the indigenous population, however.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 October 2020 07: 49
    +7
    The Second Punic War with Hannibal, elephants and other attractions is, of course, more popular. But re-sources are always interesting. Try to get to them though.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 24 October 2020 09: 23
      +4
      I think the point is not in "popularity", but in the "slide" perception of history inherent in school education.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 24 October 2020 18: 29
        +3
        Try to create a continuum.
        And you read Titus Livy - and you can't help but get carried away.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 18: 36
          +3
          Try to create a continuum.
          There are experiments, and not a few. At least in the literature.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 24 October 2020 18: 56
            +2
            What works do you mean?
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 24 October 2020 19: 08
              +4
              No specification. Martyanov, Sapkovsky, somewhere Pekhov.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 24 October 2020 19: 13
                +4
                I recently read The Witcher at your suggestion. Not really mine.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 24 October 2020 19: 22
                  +4
                  It is possible. Have you read the whole cycle?
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 24 October 2020 19: 23
                    +4
                    Yes. Most of all, probably, the Krasnolud surgeon was remembered.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 24 October 2020 19: 26
                      +4
                      "Shay red with red, white with white, yellow with yellow"?
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 24 October 2020 19: 54
                        +3
                        Yes. Look from a slightly different point.
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 24 October 2020 20: 17
                        +2
                        Exactly! I am the topic of the European Middle Ages, I study it from this "starting point"
  • Deniska999
    Deniska999 24 October 2020 07: 53
    +4
    Valery, in the first picture, apparently, Caesar with his famous X Legion is depicted, an anachronism in the article about the Punic Wars)
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 08: 01
      +5
      Quote: Deniska999
      Valery, in the first picture, apparently, Caesar with his famous X Legion is depicted, an anachronism in the article about the Punic Wars)

      Why do you think so?
      1. Deniska999
        Deniska999 24 October 2020 08: 14
        +5
        First, the bald commander in the foreground with a wreath on his head is very much like Caesar.
        Secondly, in the center we see a standard with the number X and the image of a bull. As you know, the bull was the symbol of Caesar's X Legion.
      2. Deniska999
        Deniska999 24 October 2020 08: 18
        +5
        By the way, there is a mistake in the image itself - the legion's nickname is written on the standard - Gemina - Paired, which he received only under Octavian Augustus.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 08: 33
          +2
          Then the Eagle should be the “avkvila”, not the bull (or the ram).
          One more non-severity is that if this is the time of Caesar's Gallic wars, the standard should have the inscription "SPOR", not "LEG X".
          So, to be honest, it hung a little while defining the era that the author tried to draw!
      3. Catfish
        Catfish 24 October 2020 08: 21
        +5
        Hello, hello! hi
        Look at the standard, I didn't pay attention at first either.
    2. VLR
      24 October 2020 08: 32
      +5
      But this is not a photograph, but a modern picture. Whom did the illustrator want to portray - namely Caesar or an abstract Roman commander? At least it is not signed: "Caesar at the head of the X Legion, Gaul, such a year before the new era."
      And how did the artist succeed if he meant exactly Caesar?
      We do not know how Caesar actually looked, since even the sculptural images passed through the prism of the sculptor's perception and his desire to please the customer. And the same Suetonius, describing Caesar's appearance, begins: "They say that ...."
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 08: 44
        +5
        Valery nobody criticizes you! The question is different, too much is mixed in the drawing and absurdities are striking, which put it outside the time frame of the era of Guy Julius Caesar.
        Aquila (bull or ram) - early republic, before the reforms of Mary. But there is no handle (hand) emblem.
        The standard of the paired X legion - the era of late Octavian.
        And Caesar, who doesn't fit in here or there.
        The answer could be given by interesting scutums with headbands, but they fit beautifully into the era of the late republic, which again brings confusion, however, like the pilums of the pre-Mariev reform! Although it is possible they returned to them during the Roman Empire.
      2. Deniska999
        Deniska999 24 October 2020 08: 53
        +4
        I did not put any negativity into my words) Just my eyes caught on a contradictory image. And thanks for the article!
    3. lucul
      lucul 24 October 2020 12: 22
      +2
      Valery, in the first picture, apparently, Caesar with his famous X Legion is depicted, an anachronism in the article about the Punic Wars)

      This picture, if anything, is one of the screensavers for the game Total War: Rome 2)))
      I recommend it to those who are a fan of the time.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 13: 40
        +2
        And that's right!
        Total Var is a gorgeous strategy series! So I join.
  • Trojan_wolf
    Trojan_wolf 24 October 2020 08: 41
    +2
    Thank you for an interesting insight into the history of the ancient world.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 October 2020 08: 57
    +4
    Bravo, Valery!
    Once again, I will tinker at combining materials into cycles. I would be glad to see a list of all your materials on the Ancient World.
  • silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 24 October 2020 11: 16
    +3
    Very informative ... so I would go through history at school))) ...
  • Operator
    Operator 24 October 2020 11: 50
    +2
    The Carthaginian-Roman geopolitical conflict was predetermined by the nature of their domestic policy:
    - Carthage colonized trading post cities, relying on foreign mercenaries;
    - Rome colonized territories, relying on its own mob resources, including from the composition of the colonized peoples.
  • ee2100
    ee2100 24 October 2020 12: 01
    +4
    I don't remember where I read it, it was 10 years ago. Mathematicians calculated how much the oar of the first row of rowers should have been in length and, accordingly, weigh and then, respectively, on the decks on ships of the ancient Mediterranean period.
    It turned out that these were unirems or, at best, biremes, but not a dash, and even more so a quinqueirem.
    I could be mistaken, but the weight of the oar on the bireme was approaching 100 kg. And then almost exponentially.
    So quinquerema is a "fairy tale".
    The article is definitely a plus.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 24 October 2020 12: 12
      +6
      Mathematicians counted
      Mathematicians or Physics?
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. ee2100
        ee2100 24 October 2020 13: 10
        +1
        There is a difference? Well, definitely not historians am
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 13: 21
          +5
          There is a difference?
          There is. Because "mathematics" is also a science very close to philosophy. And in physics everything is extremely tough. Either this construction corresponds to the spatio-temporal contininum, or it doesn't!
    2. Engineer
      Engineer 24 October 2020 12: 49
      +6
      Reconstruction of ancient ships is an interesting topic.
      "Olympia" trireme. Three rows of oars, one person for each oar. I went to sea several times. Quite successful
      The builders of the reconstruction project concluded that it effectively proved what had previously been in doubt, ie, that Athenian triremes were arranged with the crew positioned in a staggered arrangement on three levels with one person per oar.
    3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 12: 51
      +6
      Quote: ee2100
      I don't remember where I read it, it was 10 years ago. Mathematicians calculated how much the oar of the first row of rowers should have been in length and, accordingly, weigh and then, respectively, on the decks on ships of the ancient Mediterranean period.
      It turned out that these were unirems or, at best, biremes, but not a dash, and even more so a quinqueirem.
      I could be mistaken, but the weight of the oar on the bireme was approaching 100 kg. And then almost exponentially.
      So quinquerema is a "fairy tale".
      The article is definitely a plus.

      Greetings!
      "Mathematicians have counted" !!! If in the "puffs" the weight of the oars of the Spanish admiral's galley is even greater - about 175 kg. 5-6 katarzhniks turned it over. The base of the oar was poured with lead, and an iron was used for balance. But there were also French royal galleys, Venetian galeases, Spanish parmas! One row of which reached up to 8 rowers. The last 2-3 people rowed while standing !!!
      About, trireme. A replica of the Olympia trireme was built in the 80s!

      By the way, she showed very decent results, including a speed of 9 knots!
      Quinkwyrms, penters, hexers - in fact, from the end of the century before last, are determined not by the rows of oars, but by the number of rowers in a row! For example, Stenzel believed that one rower sat on the penters in the bottom row, and two rowers per oar on the middle and upper rows.
      We can continue about the peculiarities of rowing to wash away the tears of mathematicians! But this is only at your request! It is necessary to search for authors of Italians and our Ivanov !!!
      Regards, Kote!
      And last but not least, the paddle of the first bottom row did not exceed 3 meters in length and it was fun about 15 kg!
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 24 October 2020 13: 49
        +1
        You have a strange reaction. "wash away with the tears of mathematicians" is not necessary. "For what I bought, for what I sell"
        This is information for thought, nothing more.
        None of here responded to my comment or anything real expressed.
        Only Engineer wrote about the reconstruction, but there is no information how much the paddle of the third deck weighed. He wrote that it was operated by one person, which contradicts the comment "kote pana .." about 5-6 convicts per one oar weighing 175 kg.
        One comment is not clear about what at all. Like "is it mathematics or physics?" Yes, even the lyrics! All for the hype?
        For some reason, everyone rushes to defend the author. There are no complaints about him.
        I'm talking about the technical equipment of galleys with oars. For some reason, in the Middle Ages, galleys were built with one row of oars and the oar was driven by 4-6 people.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 October 2020 14: 23
          +4
          Yes, I don’t need a hype! I just understand the difference between "mathematicians" and "physicists".
        2. Engineer
          Engineer 24 October 2020 17: 31
          +3
          Only Engineer wrote about the reconstruction, but there is no information how much the paddle of the third deck weighed.

          According to modern views, trimer oars are of the same length - 3.5-4 meters

          Made a model of a paddle in SW
          3.5 meters of which the blade is half a meter. Handle diameter - 40 mm
          If from oak, then 4 kg.
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 24 October 2020 19: 45
            +2
            As far as you can see from your drawing, this is a two-deck vessel with 3 rows of oars. It is noteworthy that the oarlock on the first deck is close to the waterline.
            If we take from the calculation that from the first to the third deck is 4 meters and plus the fastening of the oarlock 0,5 total 4,5 m from the water level, then the length of the oar should be about 10 meters. It is unlikely that the oar diameter is 40 cm.
            It is possible to carry out calculations for a five-deck galley.
            I mean that when you read a historical text, even an authoritative author, you have to "turn on" your head. I understand that the author simply relayed the information about the five-deck gallery for us, but someone "launched" it!
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 24 October 2020 19: 52
              +3
              As far as you can see from your drawing, this is a two-deck vessel with 3 rows of oars.

              Yes
              If we take it from the calculation that from the first to the third deck is 4 meters and plus an oarlock

              This is completely contrary to modern views. What calculation is this taken from? The scale in the diagram is given
              It is noteworthy that the oarlock on the first deck is close to the waterline.

              Exactly. The Trier was overwhelmed even by relatively slight excitement. Forget about four meters of side.
              1. ee2100
                ee2100 24 October 2020 20: 24
                +2
                What are you all touchy! Distance between decks min. 4 meters, I hope you don’t argue with that. About a side height of 4 m is your invention, 4 meters is the distance between decks! Read carefully.
                Your drawing shows a scale, it turns out that the oarlock is about 50 cm from the waterline. My opinion is not enough. And yet "This is completely contrary to modern views" Your quote! This is the answer to the technical contradictions and realities of the ancient world. It is so convenient for official historians! And you, instead of sorting out this issue impartially, pour water on their mill. If you are a professional historian, then all my suggestions are past. Sori!
                1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 21: 04
                  +5
                  Quote: ee2100
                  What are you all touchy! Distance between decks min. 4 meters, I hope you don’t argue with that.

                  There were no rowing decks! As well as modern rowlocks, movable benches, etc.
                  Utlegar became a revolution! Innovative footrest! Archimedes, when designing Syracuse, immortalized himself with the proposal to use lead as a counterweight in oars! It was then the screw and everything else!
                  The bottom row of oars was really at a height of no more than half a meter. When excited, a closed leather flap was used.
                  At the same time, three rows rowed only in battle and during the chase. The rest of the time the rowers worked in turns. The ships of the Greeks were up to 1 in 8 in length! Many disputed these calculations, but modern experimental works and mathematicians (who are professionally engaged in materials science) confidently say yes! And so to calculate the wave theory of longitudinal destruction for an all-metal vessel, this is kapets! Or draw five rowing decks !!!
                  The triremes had a lightweight design with butt-to-edge dowels. Even if damaged, the "winners were towed by the defeated" did not drown after the ramming! For the winter and overnight they could be dragged ashore by 200 crew members !!!
                  I am a former university lecturer, my last position was deputy head of the faculty. Sori that ruined your fantasies!
                  1. ee2100
                    ee2100 24 October 2020 21: 19
                    +2
                    As a former university lecturer, deputy head of the faculty, "what kind of fantasy have you ruined?"
                    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 21: 35
                      +2
                      Quote: ee2100
                      As a former university lecturer, deputy head of the faculty, "what kind of fantasy have you ruined?"

                      What did “mathematicians” write to you for 10 years!
                      Best regards, not my minus!
                      1. ee2100
                        ee2100 24 October 2020 21: 53
                        +1
                        You cannot take away unholyness in the same way as loyalty to sycophants from history. Looks like over the years in the soul was conducted. Look, maybe someone will leave 30 rubles for you.
                        "Nice" when in the morning you were the first to crow toast to Shpakovsky and look for him.
                        Success in your personal life!
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 19: 59
            +1
            Quote: Engineer

            Made a model of a paddle in SW
            3.5 meters of which the blade is half a meter. Handle diameter - 40 mm
            If from oak, then 4 kg.

            Will break! In the Mediterranean, Beech and only beech - at least 50mm thick!
          3. Liam
            Liam 24 October 2020 20: 09
            0
            Quote: Engineer
            3.5 meters of which blade half a meter

            Unreal.
            The Roman ships mentioned in the article (quinquereme) had 2 rows of oars arranged so

            Long oar with 3 rowers - 8.50 m, short oar from 2-5.30 m
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 21: 15
              +1
              Liam, you are confused in years, a similar view could appear in Rome in the best case at the end of the Second Punic War!
              1. Liam
                Liam 24 October 2020 21: 33
                +1
                What are the sources of such statements ?.
          4. Kwas
            Kwas 24 October 2020 20: 25
            +1
            What about rowing synchronization? Look, even in the picture, they beat each other!
        3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 19: 55
          +1
          Quote: ee2100
          for one paddle weighing 175 kg.


          The whole set of oars on the galleries in the Mediterranean was called palamente. In the posts mentioned above, we have indicated their sizes and weights. We now give a summary table of sizes for the standard (Ordinaire) and flagship (Patronne) galleys:



          Ordinary

          Patronne

          Full length (m)

          12.25

          14.31

          Weight (estimate)

          130 kg

          160 kg

          Length from end of blade to oarlock (m)

          8.49

          10.06

          Length from oarlock to rake handle (m)

          3.76

          4.25

          Blade width at narrowest point (cm)

          12

          ?

          Blade width at widest point (cm)

          17.9

          19.6

          Oar diameter (cm)

          15.2

          17.3

          (Source: Mauro Bondioli & al. “Oar Mechanics and Oar Power in Medieval and Later Galleys”, “The Age of Galley” (2000))



          These calculations are a hundred years old! They write about them in children's books, reference books and textbooks! The impossibility of 5 and 6 "deck" rowing ships was written in pre-revolutionary Russia. By the way, one of the author's drawings shows a cutaway Carthage ship !!!
          And finally, the drawings of our domestic parma and semi-parma have been preserved !!! Google it! You can ask how much fun the steering oars (potesi) of the Volga embroidery and Belyan or Chusovsky and Ufa cast-iron barges!
          Regards, Kote!
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 24 October 2020 20: 29
            0
            Why are you? Three-deck galleys or single-deck galleys?
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 21: 24
              +1
              Quote: ee2100
              Why are you? Three-deck galleys or single-deck galleys?

              There are no three-deck galleys! laughing
              The Swedes were really perverted, but they didn't make more than two rowing decks anyway !!!
              1. ee2100
                ee2100 24 October 2020 21: 43
                0
                Squeal with pleasure! As the engineer wrote of a three-decker Mediterranean ship of the antique era? Just simplified! And I wrote about the galleys of the Middle Ages above. Read carefully.
                So, the deputy chair of what and what part were you?
      2. Kwas
        Kwas 24 October 2020 20: 17
        +1
        There is one very compelling consideration about multi-row rowing ships - rowing synchronization! All rows of oars should move synchronously, at the slightest misalignment, the oars will get confused, and so on (you can imagine). But it is almost impossible to achieve this, since the oars are of different lengths, and, accordingly, have a different moment of inertia. With colossal stretch, you can imagine rowing in two rows, but already in three rows - no way! The only way out, in my opinion, is a synchronizing lever device, then the rowers will lean not on the oars, but on the general levers, but this is such a complication that the paragraph. So, most likely, they had in mind, as in galleys, the number of oarsmen per oar.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 21: 13
          +1
          Historians distinguish five types of rowing!
          For Mediterranean galleys, two.
          Well, the last rower on the military trier was one of the highly paid specialists! However, this was preserved later in Venice, Genoa, Spain! It was the high cost that forced to put several people on the oar. Now one specialist could lead a number!
        2. Liam
          Liam 24 October 2020 21: 52
          +1
          Roman (as well as Carthaginian) - were two-row on two decks. On the bottom - rowers, on the top - soldiers. There were 2 types of oars. Shorter in 5,3 meters and longer in 8,5. The difference in length was compensated for by a different number of rowers on oars-2 and 3. Synchronism was achieved naturally by long training sessions, by the presence of a person who set the rhythm, etc. There were differences between the physical data of the rowers. Closer to the board, the rowers are "smaller" oars, different ranges of motion
      3. Kwas
        Kwas 24 October 2020 20: 30
        +1
        Did she really walk under the oars in three rows? And the oars didn't get confused, didn't they cling? Sorry, I don’t believe something!
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 21: 33
          +1
          Trust no further!
          Early on, Athens could only have two triremes on alert all year round !!! A rich policy, could contain two crews of 200 people, of which there were 170 rowers for each trireme! The motive to be able to row was both moral and material!
          1. Kwas
            Kwas 25 October 2020 10: 57
            +2
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Trust no further!

            The point is, I believe in sensible solutions. Instead of complex calculations (according to then unknown formulas), torment with synchronization, training and payment of skilled rowers, with the risk of getting entangled with oars in a real battle or during excitement, it is much simpler and more expedient to use a single-row solution, similar to the medieval galley solution. At the same time, would a multi-row ship gain in efficiency? Definitely not, and the ancients were not fools. Perhaps a slightly higher travel speed was clearly not worth the dramatic deterioration in handling, unreliability and high cost. As far as I know, neither the ships themselves, nor their drawings, nor technical descriptions have been found. Only mentions in written sources without details and like a few bas-reliefs. But perhaps the bas-reliefs were not created by eyewitnesses, and in general then ...
            We all love legends, especially beautiful ones. drinks
        2. Liam
          Liam 24 October 2020 21: 59
          +2
          There are a lot of questions about this reconstruction. In particular, since it was made 90% of the space is occupied by the crew and rowers themselves. Reasonable questions from the series are tactfully dispensed with, how much they weighed and what volume, for example, weekly supplies of food and water for 300 rowers and 120 soldiers weapons last, stocks of materials for minor repairs of ships, etc., etc. And this is tens of tons of cargo and a place for hundreds of amphorae and barrels where all this is stored.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 October 2020 06: 58
            +3
            Quote: Liam
            There are a lot of questions about this reconstruction. In particular, since it was made 90% of the space is occupied by the crew and rowers themselves. Reasonable questions from the series are tactfully dispensed with, how much they weighed and what volume, for example, weekly supplies of food and water for 300 rowers and 120 soldiers weapons last, stocks of materials for minor repairs of ships, etc., etc. And this is tens of tons of cargo and a place for hundreds of amphorae and barrels where all this is stored.

            About 120 soldiers, that's a lot. Fuclides and the Romans wrote about 18-30 soldiers (hoplitates) on the trireme and 40-50 on the penteres. Although the Romans could have had more, because of their tactics.
            In terms of autonomy, the military fleets really had it so low that they dragged transport ships in tow (the battle of Acatium, if I'm not mistaken). In fact, all, without exception, the military fleets of that time were coastal.
            Trieres were even practiced to be pulled ashore.
            Regarding the "reconstruction of the two-row five" I disputed. I have a good book by an Italian author on modeling, in which the latter (alas, I do not remember his last name from memory) gave schemes of sections of rowing ships based on archaeological excavations and documents.
            He believed that in the First Punic Rome he built his penters on the model of the sworn enemies of Carthage (1-2-2). By the end of the First Punic, Carthage moved to two rows (2-3). Rome turned out to be more conservative and repeated - this scheme only in the years of the second Punic!
            I read similar arguments from Stepanov and in Ivanov's magazines-almanacs. Three-row "fives" and "sixes" of the First Punic era have a place in our encyclopedias. But the Carthaginian "fours" of the first Punic are already in the scheme (2-2).
            1. Liam
              Liam 25 October 2020 07: 36
              +3
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

              About 120 soldiers, that's a lot.

              This is about Roman quinquiremi. 300 rowers, 120 soldiers and a minimum of 30-40 crew members - helmsmen, lookouts, sail controllers, carpenters, etc.
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              By autonomy

              But part of the supplies (for 3-5 days at least) should have been on the ship itself.
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              Three-row "fives" and "sixes" of the First Punic era have a place in our encyclopedias.

              The Romans did not have any three-row ones. Naturally, then there were no drawings, but coins, bas-reliefs, etc.



              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 October 2020 10: 17
                +1
                All the images you have given by Liam refer to the late republic or early Empire, moreover - biremes or liburns !!!
                It makes sense for Liam to post reconstructions of archaeological finds. In the late 70s, your compatriots found at least one Roman three-row "four". Plus ships from Lake Nero - I can be wrong in the names.
                1. Liam
                  Liam 25 October 2020 10: 28
                  +2
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Has the meaning

                  Operate with scientific and historical data and knowledge, and not with some statements about vague memories about something somewhere, I supposedly once read it in a magazine
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 25 October 2020 11: 42
                    +1
                    All holivar without me)
                    For seed. I recommend everyone to consult Connolly for any questions about antiquity. The man has created a wonderful encyclopedia for amateurs and professionals. Although not perfect, we are all far from him.
                    Using Connolly wrote a FaQ on the topic
                    Close the trier topic
                    Why was there one man on the oar on the Greek triremes? Where is this from?
                    Here Mr. Thucydides helped us. "Each sailor with his own oar, oar belt and pillow", - said the ancient Greek
                    Greek Trier


                    What about the rows of oars in the Hellenistic era? What about the eight-, ten, -16-row ships mentioned by ancient historians?
                    Connolly noticed that in all the images the number of rows of oars does not exceed three. So the number of rows (8, 10, 16) refers not to oars, but to rowers
                    Accordingly, the quinquerema pentera had five rows of rowers and (most likely) three rows of oars.
                    Carthaginian Penteres

                    Did the Romans have ships with three rows of oars?
                    Apparently, yes.


                    How many rows of oars did the special, largest ships have?
                    Most likely two. It looks optimal in terms of the sum of the indicators.
                    Something like this

                    There are a lot of questions about this reconstruction. In particular, since it was made 90% of the space is occupied by the crew and rowers themselves. Reasonable questions from the series are tactfully dispensed with, how much they weighed and what volume, for example, a week's supply of food and water for 300 rowers and 120

                    300 rowers and 120 soldiers this is for the quinquerem
                    Trireme 200 people of which 170 rowers
                    The bulk of the stocks for transport, which are constantly mentioned
                    1. Liam
                      Liam 25 October 2020 11: 51
                      0
                      They did not row while standing)
                      Give a direct link to the three row from Ostia
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 25 October 2020 11: 59
                        +1
                        They did not row while standing)

                        everyone is sitting.
                        Give a direct link to the three row from Ostia

                        Are you kidding me?)
                        This is a philological question. You need to know very well ancient Greek and Latin in order to understand why they called it that way and understand the difference between the number of rows of oars and the number of rowers per oar.

                        In your sources, there are also five rows of rowers on the quinquerem. So the question is almost settled
                      2. Liam
                        Liam 25 October 2020 12: 10
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Are you kidding me?)

                        No, there is simply no data on three-row (in the sense of rows of oars) Roman quinquiremi as far as I know. All there is is 2-row.
                        In your picture, there is a 3 row and I wanted to understand what exactly is depicted there - a Roman quinquiremi or a Greek trireme.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        In your sources, there are also five rows of rowers on the quinquerem. So the question is almost settled

                        Not everything is so simple. Quinquiremi is the number of rowers. And on the Greek trireme it is the number of rows of oars. I say, there are many specific subtleties.
                      3. Engineer
                        Engineer 25 October 2020 12: 12
                        +1
                        In your picture, there is a 3 row and I wanted to understand what exactly is depicted there - a Roman quinquiremi or a Greek trireme.

                        I posted everything I knew
                        Not everything is so simple. Quinquiremi is the number of rowers. And on the Greek trireme it is the number of rows of oars. I say, there are many specific subtleties.

                        In Greek, the number of rows of rowers and rows of oars is the same. No controversy.
                      4. Liam
                        Liam 25 October 2020 12: 21
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        In Greek, the number of rows of rowers and rows of oars is the same. No contradictions

                        Over the centuries, all these names have evolved and what is true for the 6th century BC is not the fact that it coincides with what it meant in the 2nd century
                      5. Engineer
                        Engineer 25 October 2020 12: 40
                        +1
                        I'm just not complicating it. On Occam's razor)
                        One of Connolly's arguments in favor of three rows on quinquerem penters.
                        The Quadriema had two rows of oars and four rowers. Almost everyone agrees on this. It was in many cases the backbone of the fleet, backbone in English-speaking sources
                        Quinquerema was considered at the time of its appearance the most powerful type ship. How to increase the power if there are also two rows of oars? And if of all the same three ?? This means that we will get a ship that is more high-sided, heavier and more stable in battle.
                        John Sinlaire Morrison, who specialized in antique ships, also believed that there are 3 rows of oars on the quinqueire
                        https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Roman-Oared-Warships-399-30BC/dp/178570401X
                        I am familiar with his work only from the abstract.
                      6. Liam
                        Liam 25 October 2020 12: 50
                        +2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Quinquerema was considered the most powerful typical ship at the time of its appearance. How to increase power if there are also two rows of oars

                        Very simple. Increasing the number of rowers (and oars) but not the number of rows. This is too revolutionary a method with a new construction technology. And the history of the appearance of quinquiremi is well known and not disputed - they captured a whole Carthaginian ship and copied it, having built 60 pieces in almost XNUMX days. This means that they did not introduce any revolutionary changes. And the Romans at that time were not such advanced navigators to arrange revolutions in this area. They were practical and simply copied (slightly modified to suit their needs) the ships of the recognized leaders of Carthage
                  2. Liam
                    Liam 25 October 2020 12: 39
                    +1
                    Quote: Engineer
                    In Greek, the number of rows of rowers and rows of oars is the same

                    This is from a clever book. True, I downloaded it in pdf format. A whole chapter is devoted to these names and the devil himself will break his leg. Real jungle from Greek and Latin and how and in what senses they were used in different eras.





                  3. Engineer
                    Engineer 25 October 2020 12: 44
                    +1
                    You are a Russophobe)).
                    You can't even drive it into Google translation
                    Read it, make a summary, lay out knowledge. I'll take my word for it.
                  4. Liam
                    Liam 25 October 2020 13: 05
                    +1
                    ))) I'm afraid that with all the nuances you would translate exactly what is written there - I need to be a professor of ancient Greek, Latin, Italian and Russian languages. And a specialist in marine terminology)
                    I can copy the text, but I get a "sheet" of a couple of hectares)
                    In general, the Greeks began these names according to the total number of rowers on the ship, divided into dozens (trireme-30, katrireme-40, etc.), which would then mutate into the number of rows of oars (trireme-3 rows). But at the same time pentarema no longer meant rows of oars but the number of rowers per oar
                2. Engineer
                  Engineer 25 October 2020 12: 54
                  0
                  Seems to have found the source of a ship with three rows of oars
                  The grave of Guy Cortilius Poplicola
                  Tombe de cartilius poplicola
                  http://www.ancientportsantiques.com/ancient-ships/ancient-galleys/tomb-cartilius-poplicola-ostia-antica/

                  PS
                  Quite simply, by increasing the number of rowers (and oars) but not the number of rows.

                  Add one row of rowers? Increase this power? Not serious for me
                3. Liam
                  Liam 25 October 2020 13: 16
                  +1
                  Quote: Engineer
                  The grave of Guy Cortilius Poplicola

                  According to these comrades
                  https://www.flickr.com/photos/giannidedom/4115393344
                  This bas-relief shows our hero reflecting an attack pirates)
                4. Liam
                  Liam 25 October 2020 13: 46
                  +1
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Increase this power? Not serious for me

                  Increase the power of the car by working on an existing engine or simply cram another engine under the hood. What's smarter
      4. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 October 2020 12: 34
        0
        Quote: Liam
        They did not row while standing)
        Give a direct link to the three row from Ostia

        Go to Venice, there are lithographs of Parma. The last row of standing rowing !!!
    4. Liam
      Liam 25 October 2020 11: 56
      +3
      Quote: Engineer
      What about eight-, ten, -16-row ships mentioned by ancient historians?

      This is a philological question. You need to know very well ancient Greek and Latin in order to understand why they called that and the difference between the number of rows of oars and the number of rowers per oar.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 October 2020 12: 32
        +2
        Liam, don't get turned on!
        One of the first to suggest counting not the ranks, but the rowers on the oar was - Major Parovsky, and it was almost two centuries ago. In those days in Russia they knew ancient Greek better than in Italy. Then there was A. Stenzel, an admiral and theoretician of the same age as the era of battleships.
        In 30 BC. - trireme? I'm afraid that this is already anarchism.
        Direct link, the internet is omnipotent, especially Wikipedia! Do not make me laugh.
        And the last thing - Syracuse Archimedes and the monsters of the Seleucids and Poltolomes were catamarans!
        However, as well as one Roman monster dug up on Lake Neuro.
      2. Liam
        Liam 25 October 2020 12: 34
        0
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        the same age as the era of battleships.

        You provoke me to "drive it" along the way)
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 October 2020 11: 48
    +3
    Liam, I'm not teaching myself! If you knew how much "stress" it was worth reading the abstracts of your "admiral". Not being a native speaker of Italian and English, getting either a “composer” or a “pea jester” in my job search and not being able to buy his works in Russian, I recruited at least three or four people with translation and commentary. Including your compatriots. However, one of them directly told me, "Gracio, are you sure that your generals write their dissertations themselves?"
    Although after reading, I think he is really convinced of his reasoning. Although knowing the naval tactics (or rather its lack) that was used in that era and before Lipato. Quintus was a terrible weapon. But only in the hands of Rome, who has unsurpassed infantry, especially in the number that you indicate - 120 soldiers for the "five"!
    About your rowing model. The biremic or (libure) perpendicular seating system appears during the second Punic War. First at Corinth, then at Carthage and later Rome. In the third Punic, there was already a Biremian (libure) diagonal seating system for rowers.
    But we forget that along with it there was an archaic rowing system when two or three oars passed through one port. It was she who put an end to the biremes and dormons.
    By the 1300th century, the Italian maritime states began to regulate shipbuilding by issuing decretti (decretti) that governed how galleys should be built. Even the design of merchant galleys was regulated by law, all the more this applies to combat galleys built by order of the state. By XNUMX, there were rules that ordered rowers to be seated in one tier, and benches should be placed at an angle to the side (usually deflected towards the stern from the centerline). On the bench sat two, three or more rowers, each with its own oar. The oars of the rowers of one bench were grouped, as they passed through one rowing port. This system, known as terzarulo, was later reinterpreted as a type of galley with a similar oar arrangement.

    Quote from Ivanov, "Renaissance galleys".
    That is, contrary to the opinion of most medieval galleys, they had one rower for each oar! And this was recognized as the most effective! Only three centuries later, Venice returned to the scheme of a few people to paddle. And here again Liam, sadly, but I do not remember what this system is called.
    Liam, if you don’t use it, it’s interesting and pleasant to discuss with you!
    Regards, Vlad!
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 October 2020 11: 57
      0
      Continuing the theme. In the same place.
      ... Experiments with increasing the number of rowers ended in failure, by the middle of the XNUMXth century, the cost of maintaining rowers had reached such a level that it was necessary to attract less expensive labor to this position. As a result, three rowers on one bench began to row with one oar, not three. The oar was equipped with a special device, reminiscent of a ladder, designed to compensate for the difference in height between different sections of the oar handle. This adaptation gave rise to the term alia scaloccio (step pattern). This scheme was less effective than the previous three-oared, but it allowed the use of slaves, prisoners of war and convicts as rowers.

      Found.
      1. Liam
        Liam 25 October 2020 13: 21
        +2
        It is very interesting, but you are writing about the ships built only one and a half thousand years after the Punic wars.
  • Icelord
    Icelord 26 October 2020 18: 41
    0
    What are the weekly stocks, what are you talking about? Read every day for supplies in the harbor
  • Bar1
    Bar1 25 October 2020 13: 13
    -2
    Quote: ee2100
    I don't remember where I read it, it was 10 years ago.

    Georgy Kostylev, an officer of the fleet, has long been researching the topic of trireme / pyatirems and spoke unequivocally, the oars are too heavy for triremes, so the trireme is a myth from the OI.

    1 output.
    Neither the Greeks, nor the Romans built any two-, three- or more long-tiered ships, because, unlike historians, they were on friendly terms with their heads. The opinion about the existence of "birem", "trireme", etc. in antiquity is a misunderstanding, which arose either: a) as a result of a complete lack of understanding by the authors of ancient texts of what they write about; b) due to problems with translation and interpretation. It is very likely that Pliny and Diodorus had a good idea of ​​what they were talking about, but when writing the originals of their works, they used some kind of naval terminology that did not come down to us, which was familiar and generally accepted in their time. It had never occurred to them to put a glossary at the end of the scroll. Then the translator - as usual, through and through the land shafirka, besides, perhaps not a first-class connoisseur of the language, not understanding some kind of speech turnover and not delving into the topic, created (on paper) a "trireme", "quadrireme", etc. ...


    https://royallib.com/read/kostilev_georgiy/voenno_istoricheskie_hohmi.html#20480

    here is a real galley

    1. ee2100
      ee2100 25 October 2020 17: 33
      0
      The main thing is that the author does not repeat from article to article "200 new five-deck ships" Otherwise it will be replicated further.
      I hope the author reads the comments.
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 25 October 2020 18: 05
        -3
        Quote: ee2100
        The main thing is that the author does not repeat from article to article "200 new five-deck ships" Otherwise it will be replicated further.
        I hope the author reads the comments.

        no, they don't read anything, they bend their own line, antiquity, ancient greece, ancient rome, Tatar-Mongoliango, and when it comes to specifics, they start wagging their backs.
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 25 October 2020 20: 09
          -1
          It is clear. Hesitate with the party line!
  • faterdom
    faterdom 24 October 2020 12: 24
    +6
    Carthage was the successor and continuation of the first Phoenician business empire. For thousands of years, it was actually a monopoly in maritime transportation and shipbuilding, introduced a ban on the navigation of other people's ships west of some islands of the Mediterranean Sea, a monopoly on purple also brought fabulous profits for thousands of years.
    Sailing around the west coast of Africa, described in a Carthaginian temple on the wall and translated by a Roman scholar, is worth it! Thirty thousand people were sent to unfamiliar shores for the purpose of study and colonization! Perhaps the Canary blondes - the remnants of the Carthaginian colony - the Romans tried, and about the Carthaginian deeds and accomplishments is known to insulting little. Although, the art of agricultural engineering, they pissed off, translated, published many times! As well as water supply with sewerage.
    But, the strategy of Tyrus and Carthage was wrong: we will get rich, we will restrict others in our monopoly spheres, but we will buy armies as needed, and not prepare and maintain all the time (greetings from the past by Kudrin and Siluanov-Golikov!)
    As a result, Tire helped for a long time to support the armies of the Assyrians, Babylon, the Persians ... With the latter, however, I did not guess when it was necessary to cross over. He put up stubborn resistance to the Macedonian, which filled up the strait separating the city from the mainland and took the city. However, to all appearances, he remained extremely dissatisfied, if not enraged - the fleet took the accumulated gold for thousands of years to Carthage. So, there is no doubt, if the king had not died at such a young age, Carthage would have been taken by him sooner or later, and there would have been no "Punic wars" there.
    So, thanks to their "financial strategy" the Phoenicians missed the formation and strengthening of the Greeks first, not seeing them as equal competitors, and then the Romans.
    Maybe the area is relaxing - after all, the collapse of the Western Roman Empire became inevitable after the loss of Carthage and the province of Africa itself (the Goths were taken away), and the monstrous disaster of the united fleet of the Eastern and Western empires, which was defeated by the Gothic.
    Collected, however, and once again the combined forces of the eastern and western empires, but Attila came with his Huns, and there was no time for Africa.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 October 2020 13: 47
      +3
      He added that the Phoenicians and Greeks are the ideological heirs of the Cretan civilization. Although this topic can be discussed for a long time and persistently!
      A beautiful legend about the skin of a bull, on the ground that covered which Carthage was built!
      By the way, ancient historians inextricably linked the emergence of Rimma and Carthage!
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Lynx2000
        Lynx2000 25 October 2020 12: 19
        +1
        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka

        By the way, ancient historians inextricably linked the emergence of Rimma and Carthage!

        Do you mean the legend of Dido and Aeneas (the progenitor of the Romans)? In such a case, the Carthaginians must be willing to avenge the dishonor. wink

        By the way, the citizens of Tarentum, however, forgot about the glory of their ancestors from Sparta.
    2. Niel-le-Calais
      Niel-le-Calais 25 October 2020 13: 19
      +2
      Quote: faterdom
      the strategy of Tyrus and Carthage was erroneous: we will get rich, we will restrict others in our monopoly spheres, but we will buy armies as needed, and not prepare and maintain all the time (greetings from the past by Kudrin and Siluanov-Golikov!)

      Duc rich but without an army worse than poorer but with an army.
      It should be noted here that Carthage, as often before and after him, threw his mercenaries and hired new ones to disperse the old ones. That is, there was little hope for the stability of the ranks.
      In addition, Carthage is a more maritime nation and converged with a land one. And Rome learned faster because it lagged behind.
      And they had more desire.
      At Carthage, that fire was lit very late ... During the siege of Carthage itself, they showed the best natural feelings. But it was too late.
      I read about their meetings. Relationship to ambassadors. How the Romans negotiated with them. In general, completely on the side of the Romans, although this is all according to their descriptions (maybe they lied as all the winners love)
      The clash between Carthage and Rome was inevitable. They are the largest states in a given place and time. And approximately equal in strength fought for destruction. And the cost of destruction was high (completely). Only one survived.
      Carthage is to blame for losing. Banal greed. At a time when the Romans called 17 year olds and gave all the money to the fleet. Their opponent did not. Perhaps they hid some of the troops and tanks (oh elephants) with ships from the Romans.
      The Romans in general defeating them could simply cut coupons. They had Carthage, a kind of Japan, in the United States. After 2 mw. Without spending on the military and the navy, they got rich. And gold is a cause for contention. And the censor skillfully kindled them.
  • Operator
    Operator 24 October 2020 14: 55
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    Oh my God, we are on the same side with the Operator

    Holy holy holy laughing
  • Phil77
    Phil77 25 October 2020 07: 41
    +2
    Quote: Korsar4
    I just love the Moscow streets:

    Few of them remain, few.
  • Falx
    Falx 25 October 2020 13: 31
    0
    I have a question about galleys.
    is there any archaeological evidence of multi-tiered galleys, I mean, for example, the remains of such galleys at the bottom of the sea, or something like that. mosaics and drawings on ceramics do not count. draw and I can do anything ...

    I have doubts that hepters and quinqueremes were as we now imagine them, that is, with a multi-tiered arrangement of rowers. is this even possible? especially in light of the fact that neither in the Middle Ages nor in modern times there was nothing like this. That is, there were many galleys, as such, and of various types and sizes, but entirely with a single-tier arrangement of rowers!
  • Undecim
    Undecim 25 October 2020 16: 05
    +4
    calling themselves "the tribe of Mars" (by the Marmetins)
    This prehistoric organized crime group was called "Mamertines".
  • Undecim
    Undecim 25 October 2020 16: 23
    +4
    Somehow the author completely missed the stage when Rome and Carthage were allies.
    1. Niel-le-Calais
      Niel-le-Calais 25 October 2020 21: 28
      +4
      Quote: Undecim
      Somehow the author completely missed the stage when Rome and Carthage were allies.

      for example
      War with Pyrrhus. Temporary allies. Plus trading partners.
      Rome entered into an agreement with Carthage on trade and navigation, which clearly reflects the superiority of the city that is more powerful at sea: the Romans were forbidden to sail outside the German region, and they were allowed to trade in the Carthaginian harbors only under government supervision; but the Carthaginians received the right to free trade, they were only forbidden to build fortresses and were not allowed to commit robbery in the interior of the country (the coast, therefore, was given to them in power).
      In general, diplomatically, the two powers were not so sickly "over-certified" the treaties.
      Immediately after the liberation of Tarquinius the Proud from Rome, the Romans concluded with Carthage about "friendship" (φιλία)
      First, the alliance was directed against the Etruscans, then Pyrrhus, and finally Tarentum.
      The first treaty between Carthage and Rome was concluded in 509 BC. e., under Lucius Junius Brutus and Mark Horace, the first consuls after the abolition of royal power in Rome. On the part of Carthage, the treaty was apparently concluded by Hamilcar I.
      The second treaty was concluded in 348 BC. e. Titus Livy and Diodorus Siculus speaks of this treaty "of friendship and alliance", considering it the first treaty between Carthage and Rome.
      Third contract.
      In 306 BC. e. the Romans and Carthaginians renewed the treaty, according to which Rome could not annex territories in Sicily, and Carthage - on the Apennine Peninsula.
      This treaty testifies to the power of Carthage over part of Spain.
      Fourth contract.
      In 281 BC. e. or in 279 BC. BC, when Pyrrhus landed in Italy, the last treaty was concluded before the First Punic War - a full-fledged military alliance. Not just help.
      And then came the treaties of war / peace and other delights of the PV.
      For example interesting
      In 226 BC. e. the Romans signed a treaty with Hasdrubal the Handsome on the delimitation of spheres of influence in Spain.
      How fashionable it is now to say that it has not been ratified by the Senate (Parliament)
      And the union of Carthage and Rome deserves a separate article. For this is an interesting union of two future bitter rivals. But a common enemy brings us closer together.
  • Diviz
    Diviz 25 October 2020 20: 33
    0
    To build so many ships, you need a lot of wood. To establish the technology for the production of ships. After Alexander the Great walked to Bactria and Sogdiana. Access to new lands and raw materials for the production of weapons appeared.
    But the ground for a successful campaign of Alexander the Great was still begun
    Persian rulers. Which somehow did not see any threat from Alexander. And why it happened so maybe someone will write.
  • Niel-le-Calais
    Niel-le-Calais 25 October 2020 22: 39
    0
    The author is at a gallop across Europe.
    All in one article is difficult to fit, of course.
    I will add that there were many differences between the Romans and Carthage, as well as similar ones.
    And in Carthage there was such a sweet custom of sacrificing children. Nobles. Yes, with the parents.
    In general, religion and rituals leave imprints on people and their behavior.
    So the religion and rituals of Carthage made people not as mobilized as the Romans. Or rather, mentally not very stable and not capable of mobilization to the extreme.
    So along with mercenarism, wealth, the rituals and religion of Carthage also served the city in a bad way.
    The talent of Barki (father and sons) also could not always be born in such a mentally abnormal place.
    The city gives birth to a commander, and the village gives birth to a good soldier.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 27 October 2020 22: 57
    +1
    Yes, there was a fruit left to us in memory of Carthage, which in the West from the Romans took the name "Punic apple". We know it as a pomegranate.
  • Bogatyrev
    Bogatyrev 28 October 2020 00: 53
    0
    There are very big doubts that the Romans built a fleet by copying a ship thrown out by a storm.
    1. There are a lot of subtleties in shipbuilding and navigation that require a lot of training.
    2. Their quinqueremes are not going to the ships of Carthage.

    Conclusion - who helped them build the fleet? Greeks, who else.
  • Bogatyrev
    Bogatyrev 28 October 2020 00: 59
    0
    Quote: Niel-le-Calais
    approximately equal in strength fought to destroy

    I cannot understand the number of troops gathered by Rome after Cannes.
    1. Where are so many warriors from?
    2. And why, knowing the Roman system, all these troops of constant readiness did not go into battle at once?