Military Review

What is the gap in Armenian air defense: fighting in Karabakh was investigated in Romania

94

A new round of confrontation, promoted in Karabakh, attracts the attention of many publications specializing in military topics. This time, they decided to contribute to the "debriefing" in Romania, offering their "panacea" against the destructive impact of the Azerbaijani aviation.


Command of the air


As noted in the Romania Military, despite the lack of materials for a full-fledged study of the conflict, it is already possible to draw preliminary conclusions about the state of the Armenian air defense. Video footage of the fighting in Karabakh demonstrates the consistent destruction of Armenian positions: static, permanent or temporary.

At the same time, Azerbaijanis do not skimp on guided munitions, which leads to the conclusion: either they have impressive stocks of [kamikaze drones] (which presupposes the premeditation of the conflict), or someone else has significant arsenals and regularly and in large quantities carries out their deliveries. Other "stars" of the campaign are the Turkish attack drone Bayraktar TB2 and Israeli drones.

But what can you understand from the video presented today? [...] The first and most obvious is that the Armenians have lost control over their own airspace

- exploring the conflict, the newspaper believes, pointing out that this allowed the Azerbaijani drones to fly without any restrictions.



How to close the gap


According to the author of Romania Military, a large number of aviation would not have saved the "Armenian sky" from enemy air superiority, although even the Romanian IAR-99 attack aircraft, not to mention the Armenian Su-25, could handle the drones:

If the Armenians had more aviation than God's help, I am convinced that the results would be downright disappointing.

On the other hand, the ground air defense also showed unimportant performance, as it was unable to organize effective protection against air attacks. In this regard, the A2 / AD concept [creation of an insurmountable barrier in front of enemy aircraft, at the forefront - at the expense of long-range weapons] is being questioned.

I've heard so much about A2 / AD ... you look at those circles drawn on maps that look like shields in Star Trek [talking about the ranges of Russian air defense systems, which are usually indicated on maps in relation to the defense of Crimea and Kaliningrad]. But it seems that this is not what is required [...] To rely solely on ground air defense, as if it were a universal panacea, is again wrong

- points out the author of Romania Military, revealing his own vision of how to close the gap in air defense:

Ground air defense and fighter aircraft are not mutually exclusive […] I prefer mobile flexible defense.

Photos used:
https://www.yeniasir.com.tr
94 comments
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  1. Fungus
    Fungus 20 October 2020 07: 48
    14
    Ancient air defense, radar and electronic warfare. Plus curved-handed operators. Even the Libyans even shot down these bayraktars. Although yesterday the Armenians overwhelmed one with an ancient wasp. Maybe work on the bugs was done or something else.
    1. BDRM 667
      BDRM 667 20 October 2020 08: 00
      10
      A new round of confrontation, promoted in Karabakh, attracts the attention of many publications specializing in military topics. This time, Romania decided to contribute to the "debriefing" by offering their "panacea" against the destructive impact of Azerbaijani aviation for the Armenian troops.


      Romania itself can be considered the "North Korea of ​​Europe" in terms of the availability of modern means of destruction and protection.
      Although, in fairness, it should be noted that the DPRK showed a lot in its 2020 parade that surprised ...
      Here and new tanks, MLRS, self-propelled guns, OTRK, air defense systems - "A la S-300".
      It will not be surprising if the DPRK also has UAVs for various purposes, given their active cooperation in terms of military-technical cooperation with one of the leaders in this industry - Iran ...

      Romanians have nothing to show, all that remains is to reason
      1. syndicalist
        syndicalist 20 October 2020 09: 07
        -21 qualifying.
        Quote: BDRM 667

        Romania itself can be considered the "North Korea of ​​Europe" in terms of the availability of modern means of destruction and protection.

        Russia fights Romania for this title
        1. CSKA
          CSKA 20 October 2020 09: 55
          +4
          Quote: syndicalist
          Russia fights Romania for this title

          ))))) Does the Russian Federation have modern means of destruction and protection?
          1. syndicalist
            syndicalist 20 October 2020 13: 10
            -15 qualifying.
            Judging by the ease with which the Turks and Israelis in Syria / Libya click our shells, S-300/400, Torahs and others - there really are no modern means
            1. CSKA
              CSKA 20 October 2020 17: 17
              -1
              Quote: syndicalist
              Judging by the ease with which the Turks and Israelis in Syria / Libya click our shells, S-300/400, Torahs and others - there really are no modern means

              They don't click on ours. Moreover, the S-400. If you do not know, then the Russian Federation is not at war in the SAR with Turkey and Israel, and they did not try to attack us. Leave your compositions with you about SAM Tor. Neither SAR nor Haftar have them. Therefore, not a single one was destroyed. How long was Israel able to destroy the Carapace SAR? As many as 1 and 1 have damaged. Turks, of course, can tell fables about dozens for people like you. In fact, they destroyed 2.
              And the most important thing. Headless military and specialists from China, India, Algeria, the United Arab Emirates are buying Russian air defense systems. And of course the most headless Turks who buy Russian air defense systems.
              Where are they all up to the air defense specialist Dima syndicalist.
              1. syndicalist
                syndicalist 21 October 2020 20: 11
                0
                About Thor there was an official announcement about two weeks ago. The S-400 may not have clicked, but there is little joy in this, since the Israeli aviation is performing combat missions in its zone without noticing (or the S-400 does not notice it). As for "the Russian Federation is not at war," leave these fables to those who tell them in the Russian media for money (unless, of course, you are one of them). About 1 shell is not funny at all, given that there are about 40 video evidences of their destruction on the network.
            2. PSih2097
              PSih2097 20 October 2020 18: 16
              +4
              Quote: syndicalist
              Judging by the ease with which the Turks and Israelis in Syria / Libya click our shells, S-300/400, Torahs and others - there really are no modern means

              This is where RFovskie air defense systems clicked (It is the belonging to the RF Ministry of Defense)?
          2. VO3A
            VO3A 20 October 2020 14: 51
            +2
            You're phrasing the question! What modern means does Russia have for waging war and controlling disputed territories and intelligence? Without people, without contact with the enemy? As in Syria, Libya, LDNR, Karabakh? The answer is no! Without our people, without the risk of their life and death - no ... Chew, guys, and stupid uncles in general's uniform ... We do not know how to wage a modern war, modern military operations, if you are comforted, then such are the majority ... .But we allegedly have the 2nd army in Mir?
      2. venik
        venik 20 October 2020 09: 46
        +4
        Quote: BDRM 667
        Romanians have nothing to show, all that remains is to reason

        ========
        I still did not understand: What is the article about?
        The conclusion of the Romanian author: "....Ground air defense and fighter aircraft are not mutually exclusive [...] I prefer mobile flexible defense...... "?
        Also to me - "discovered America"! Who can argue that? Banal, "common" truth! And no more...... request fool
    2. Mountain shooter
      Mountain shooter 20 October 2020 08: 19
      +5
      Quote: Fungus
      Ancient air defense, radar and electronic warfare. Plus crooked operators

      Rather, there is also an air defense organization. The "smearing" of installations over a large area led to the fact that the entire area was affected. And single "Wasps" quickly knocked out. The sky was lost. As a result, defense stability is simply poor.
      1. Livonetc
        Livonetc 20 October 2020 08: 54
        +6
        Here it is air defense.
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 20 October 2020 20: 30
          +3
          Awesome air defense - but only from MANPADS these drones with electric motors cannot be shot down for IR seeker missiles, they are in fact simply not visible.
      2. hydrox
        hydrox 20 October 2020 09: 02
        +4
        Yes, the Baghramyans, Babajanyans, Ter-Isahakyans are over, and there is nowhere to take the new ones - the military greatness of the Armenians has shrunk - to command flowers and the "blue" - that's their lot ...
      3. venik
        venik 20 October 2020 09: 57
        +5
        Quote: Mountain Shooter
        Rather, there is also an air defense organization. The "smearing" of installations over a large area led to the fact that the entire area was affected.

        =======
        Yes, there (in Karabakh) there is also no single radar field! The whole sky is in "holes" - fly - I don't want to! Electronic warfare is in a rudimentary state, I am not even talking about RTR!
        ---------
        Quote: Mountain Shooter
        And single "Wasps" quickly knocked out.

        =======
        It is doubtful .... Well, in Artsakh itself there were probably not many of them ..... And in the Armed Forces of Armenia, according to some sources, there are as many as 175 pieces !!! Try to "knock out" everything. True, how things are with 9M33 missiles. Maybe they are just not enough? request
        1. kapitan92
          kapitan92 20 October 2020 13: 12
          0
          Quote: venik
          True, how things are with 9M33 missiles. Maybe they are just not enough?

          Probably, everything is fine with this type of missiles, BUT, you will see its performance characteristics, At an altitude of 5 km. We have already discussed performance characteristics of "bairaks".
          Production of "OSA AKM" was discontinued in 1989... The complexes in service are supported and modernized, but this is already the last century. Wasp, has difficulty in intercepting targets with low ESR (UAV,).
          The performance indicators

          "Osa" "Osa-AK" "Osa-AKM"
          Reconnaissance zone:
          by range, km up to 45 up to 45 up to 45
          azimuth, deg. 360 360 360
          in elevation, deg. 0-30 0-30 0-30
          The affected area (including helicopters)
          по дальности, км 2-7 1,5-10 1,5-10
          по высоте, км 0,05-5 0,025-5 0,025-5
          by exchange rate parameter, km up to 4 up to 6 up to 6
          Number of target channels on BM, pcs 1 1 1
          Number of missile channels on BM, pcs 2 2 2
          Maximum target destruction speed, m / s 420 500 500
          Maximum overload of targets hit, units 5 8 8
          Время реакции, с 26-39 26-39 26-39
          The probability of hitting the target of one SAM 0,35-0,85 0,5-0,85 0,5-0,85
          The number of missiles on the launcher, pcs 4 6 6
          SAM weight, kg 128 128 (157 a TPK) 128 (157 a TPK)
          Weight of the missile warhead, kg 15 15 15
          Time of deployment (folding) BM, min 3-5 3-5 3-5
          BM movement speed, km / h:
          on roads up to 70 up to 70 up to 70
          off-road up to 30 up to 30 up to 30
          на плаву 7-10 7-10 7-10
          Weight, t 18 18 18
          Combat crew, people 5 5 5
          1. venik
            venik 20 October 2020 15: 51
            +4
            Quote: kapitan92
            You see her performance characteristics, At an altitude of 5 km. We have already discussed performance characteristics of "bairaks".

            ========
            Vyacheslav! Yes, I know the performance characteristics of "Wasps"! It's not even about the "ceiling" of "Bayraktar". Discussing this topic, we somehow forgot that the "ceiling" of an aircraft is determined from "sea ​​level", and the" reach "in height of the SAM - from launch sites! Those. if the "Wasp" stands at an altitude of 2 km "above sea level", then a target with a maximum "ceiling" of 7 km is quite possible to "reach"! And small targets are great!
            She has another problem: a complex low altitude - from him (i.e. over him) is just a HUGE "dead funnel"! As soon as it did not break through, everything! Kirdyk "Wasp"! She will not get it! "Wasps" can be used only in groups - 3-4 cars each (so that they cover each other), and the way they are used in Karabakh (one by one) is the most effective (and spectacular!) way suicide!
        2. VyacheSeymour
          VyacheSeymour 20 October 2020 20: 48
          0
          It is doubtful .... Well, in Artsakh itself there were probably not many of them ..... And in the Armed Forces of Armenia, according to some sources, there are as many as 175 pieces !!!

          And what's the point ????? .... Air defense is then air defense, when - to die, but to protect! ..
          1. venik
            venik 21 October 2020 12: 06
            0
            Quote: VyacheSeymour
            And what's the point ????? .... Air defense is then air defense, when - to die, but to protect! ..

            =======
            Who can argue? And he wrote to the fact that "knocking out" all 175 pieces of "Os" would be extremely problematic!
    3. Nasdaq
      Nasdaq 20 October 2020 15: 43
      +3
      There are no modern complexes in Karabakh. There is only old stuff. The same TOPs, shells and S-300 are in Armenia.
      In addition, Armenia's S-300s are old and they are not sharpened for unobtrusive UAVs. And modern tori and shells from Armenia will in no way cover the whole of Karabakh.
      In Karabakh itself, wasps and anti-aircraft missiles are the main air defense assets. Wasps 7 km high point-blank. At a distance and even less.
      So even theoretically, with such a weapon it's a matter of seams.
      In addition, one complex cannot cover the sky, even with a good one. You need not only quality, you need quality quantity. The saying "one in the field is not a warrior" is also suitable for air defense.

      As for the so-called zone A2 / D2: well, they don't cover the sky in this zone with wasps. Conclusion of the Romanians from the series: since the Zaporozhets stalled, it means the Mercedes Kauno. The logic is iron.
  2. Avior
    Avior 20 October 2020 07: 53
    13
    An important nuance is not taken into account - formally, Armenia does not participate in hostilities, and the fact that they are being worked on in the territory of Azerbaijan.
    This means that the Karabakh army should have such anti-drone aviation, not Armenia.
    And this is much more difficult.
    Azerbaijan surpasses Armenia in potential, this is understandable, but it is already obvious that the Armenians also made a mistake in the structure of weapons.
    If you give them time, they will recover with credit from Russia, only the enemy seems to be unwilling to give them this time.
    1. 1976AG
      1976AG 20 October 2020 07: 56
      14
      It is too late to prepare for war when the war is already on.
      1. Avior
        Avior 20 October 2020 08: 02
        +3
        This refers to the truce that the Armenians are seeking.
        1. VyacheSeymour
          VyacheSeymour 20 October 2020 21: 01
          0
          This refers to the truce that the Armenians are seeking.

          So who is ... the devil ... to iron Ganja and Mingachevir on the same day?
          Trying to cut off your escape routes? ... - Well, the stump is clear - that Aliyev will not take a second chance ... and from this blow to the night city, he will squeeze out more political politicians than the CSO from the results of the failed five-year plan! ..
  3. 1976AG
    1976AG 20 October 2020 07: 53
    15
    Russia has always said that air defense should be echeloned and include various means of destruction, as well as electronic warfare systems, RTV, etc., so they did not say anything new here.
  4. Guards turn
    Guards turn 20 October 2020 07: 58
    11
    Tula sea "Pantsir" was tested in the Baltic Sea The "Pantsir-M" anti-aircraft system installed on the MRK was tested for the first time in the Baltic Sea. This is reported by the RF Ministry of Defense.

    The complex, developed by Tula masters, fired at targets set by Su-27 fighters. All targets have been successfully hit.

    The 800-ton ship Odintsovo equipped with the Pantsir is planned to be handed over to the Baltic Fleet by the end of this year.
    1. Vol4ara
      Vol4ara 20 October 2020 09: 24
      -3
      Quote: Guards turn
      Tula sea "Pantsir" was tested in the Baltic Sea The "Pantsir-M" anti-aircraft system installed on the MRK was tested for the first time in the Baltic Sea. This is reported by the RF Ministry of Defense.

      The complex, developed by Tula masters, fired at targets set by Su-27 fighters. All targets have been successfully hit.

      The 800-ton ship Odintsovo equipped with the Pantsir is planned to be handed over to the Baltic Fleet by the end of this year.

      They were also amazed in the land version, before being sent to Syria. And then there were Israeli spikes
      1. Guards turn
        Guards turn 20 October 2020 09: 32
        +1
        The modernized Pantsir air defense missile systems are being prepared for deliveries abroad. The Russian newest Pantsir-S1M anti-aircraft missile and cannon systems are planned to be exported abroad in the near future. According to Izvestia, a contract is currently being prepared, an agreement may be signed with representatives of the armed forces of the United Arab Emirates, who previously highly appreciated the domestic complexes. The ZRPK ensured the safety of the airspace during the Dubai AirShow International Air Show.
        1. Vol4ara
          Vol4ara 20 October 2020 09: 35
          -5
          Quote: Guards turn
          The modernized Pantsir air defense missile systems are being prepared for deliveries abroad. The Russian newest Pantsir-S1M anti-aircraft missile and cannon systems are planned to be exported abroad in the near future. According to Izvestia, a contract is currently being prepared, an agreement may be signed with representatives of the armed forces of the United Arab Emirates, who previously highly appreciated the domestic complexes. The ZRPK ensured the safety of the airspace during the Dubai AirShow International Air Show.

          Bot?
    2. vVvAD
      vVvAD 20 October 2020 10: 02
      +3
      A shell for the Caspian flotilla, other ships of the 3rd rank and auxiliary vessels, as well as river-sea vessels would be very useful - for sure, there will be somewhere else to put it good
  5. The comment was deleted.
  6. Abdula
    Abdula 20 October 2020 08: 01
    -12 qualifying.
    I would like to say thank you to Russia for turning a blind eye to the supply of weapons from Israel, Turkey, Ukraine to Azerbaijan, and yes, all right, they are all Soros there in Armenia and the huge American embassy in Armenia and in Russia, Armenians live on the pitchfork more than the embassy and their cars Bentley
    1. 1976AG
      1976AG 20 October 2020 09: 17
      11
      Quote: Abdula
      I would like to say thank you to Russia for turning a blind eye to the supply of weapons from Israel, Turkey, Ukraine to Azerbaijan, and yes, all right, they are all Soros there in Armenia and the huge American embassy in Armenia and in Russia, Armenians live on the pitchfork more than the embassy and their cars Bentley

      I would like to say thank you to ALL, for the good that we do to you, you do not remember, but in that shit that others do to you you accuse us!
    2. Vol4ara
      Vol4ara 20 October 2020 09: 26
      +5
      Quote: Abdula
      I would like to say thank you to Russia for turning a blind eye to the supply of weapons from Israel, Turkey, Ukraine to Azerbaijan, and yes, all right, they are all Soros there in Armenia and the huge American embassy in Armenia and in Russia, Armenians live on the pitchfork more than the embassy and their cars Bentley

      It's my pleasure. You forgot to count the number of Russian schools in Armenia and compare them with the number of Russian schools in Armenia before Pashinyan. America is with you.
      And why, in general, the Russian Federation should open its eyes to the supply of weapons, even if you yourself did not recognize the independence of Karabakh. It turns out that Karabakh is the territory of Azerbaijan
  7. viktor_ui
    viktor_ui 20 October 2020 08: 08
    23
    there is no gap, but there is a natural result ... Armenia has an army of the 80s of the last century in terms of the range of weapons and combat tactics of use + a smart-ass adept Soros at the head. And Azerbaijan has an army with tactics and striking equipment from the 21st century + a motivated leader. Yes, there, in the equipment of infantrymen, the difference is immediately visible even to the blind. Armenians are blind and deaf. And as the USSR swore the oath, it hurts in my heart for both sides.
  8. Hermit21
    Hermit21 20 October 2020 08: 19
    -5
    To draw conclusions on the videos selected by the Turkish curators from the UBLA is such an analytics. They do not provide answers to many uncomfortable questions for drone users.
    1. Servisinzhener
      Servisinzhener 20 October 2020 09: 11
      +7
      Indeed, judging by the video, it turns out that Azerbaijanis are fighting only exclusively with drones. But for some reason, many overlook the fact that this perception of this war is very subjective. And the reason for this is that when using a drone, you can get a picture. But 9M55F or 3OF45 cannot get such a picture with the same propaganda force.
      And in order to know the real state of affairs, you need to know how many shells for tanks, cannon and rocket artillery were spent. Mine for mortars. Anti-tank missiles. And compare with the amount of spent drone ammunition.
      1. Hermit21
        Hermit21 20 October 2020 09: 23
        +7
        This is not the only point.

        How long does it take to find, identify and defeat the target?
        When do you destroy the target?
        Do they always destroy?
        How many of the "destroyed" are mock-ups?
        Does UBLA really fly as freely as they want to present?
        How long does it take to find, identify and defeat the target?
        What is the real effectiveness of ammunition?
        How often do drones shoot down or fall due to the fault of the operators?
        Are they coordinated with ground forces?
        Are the really important targets or what you saw being hit? Are the results consistent with the financial and material costs?

        And specialists will have even more such questions.
        1. VO3A
          VO3A 20 October 2020 15: 06
          0
          There will be no questions for specialists! Well, at least, you understand that if there is no single control from the command center of the positional combat area in real time, which has all the necessary means of control and reconnaissance and controls the strike assets assigned to it, the UAVs will do whatever they want ... and they do ... Is it really not clear to someone? .. It was clear 20 years ago ... Our military made conclusions .. NO. We do NOT have such systems and control centers and reconnaissance means ... If the means of defense and air defense are scattered, distributed, and even with a large number of them, the result will be the same! But if there is a system, there is an exchange of information and target designation in real time, there is a control center with powers that make decisions in real time, then the result will be stunning and with less cost and resources .... Combat Information Systems (Network-centric) !!!
          1. VO3A
            VO3A 20 October 2020 15: 20
            0
            If someone thinks that it is very difficult, then it is not so ... We have everything for such systems .. They should have been for a long time ... We have no brains at the command, they have been marking time for 20 years. ...
          2. Hermit21
            Hermit21 21 October 2020 16: 03
            0
            if there is no single real-time control, which has all the necessary means of control and reconnaissance and controls the strike means assigned to it, the UAVs will do whatever they want


            How not to recall the command center of the positional combat area in Idlib. Just built - the drones immediately began to shoot down. And before that in Libya. Yes, we are lagging behind, we are lagging behind
        2. Elturisto
          Elturisto 21 October 2020 15: 06
          0
          The main function of the UAV is still reconnaissance and target tracking. I think that most of the targets were hit by adjustable projectiles and mines. The Mammads seem to have established the production of these ammunition.
          1. VO3A
            VO3A 21 October 2020 17: 42
            0
            And who provides illumination for these adjustable projectiles and mines? UAVs must! And we have scouts on the shoulders of the barmaleev !!!
      2. Pavlos Melas
        Pavlos Melas 20 October 2020 10: 16
        +1
        Quote: Servisinzhener
        Indeed, judging by the video, it turns out that Azerbaijanis are fighting only exclusively with drones. But for some reason, many overlook the fact that this perception of this war is very subjective. And the reason for this is that when using a drone, you can get a picture. But 9M55F or 3OF45 cannot get such a picture with the same propaganda force.
        And in order to know the real state of affairs, you need to know how many shells for tanks, cannon and rocket artillery were spent. Mine for mortars. Anti-tank missiles. And compare with the amount of spent drone ammunition.

        All this is true, but as they say, the result at the moment is on the face. Armenians retreat Azeri seize territories. Naturally, the war is not over yet and we are now discussing the preliminary result, but the contribution of drones to the advancement of Azerbaijani troops cannot be ignored. It is impossible not to elevate drones or belittle them, you just need to take them into account.
  9. Demagogue
    Demagogue 20 October 2020 08: 55
    +4
    Yes, it has nothing to do with ground air defense. It hasn't worked since the early 80s, at all. It can constrain the actions of the UAV a little, but nothing more.
    The bottom line is that UAVs are now a mandatory attribute of a modern army. The side that does not have them is obviously the loser.
    1. prodi
      prodi 20 October 2020 09: 06
      0
      yes, it is now like a new subspecies of aviation - simply irreplaceable in low-intensity conflicts, limited resources and guerrilla warfare
      1. Demagogue
        Demagogue 20 October 2020 09: 12
        +4
        Back in 1982, Israel smashed the air defenses of the Syrians in Lebanon with a UAV, and you are still talking about low-intensity conflicts.
        1. prodi
          prodi 20 October 2020 09: 19
          -1
          in the case of massive use of aviation and normally organized air defense, the use of UAVs will become problematic
          1. Demagogue
            Demagogue 20 October 2020 09: 23
            +2
            I wrote everything in the article a long time ago, you can look at the profile.

            Air defense can only restrict the actions of the UAV, but it does not prevent the work on the front edge.
            1. prodi
              prodi 20 October 2020 09: 38
              -1
              aviation can strike both in areas and in the depth of defense, this is more UAV capabilities
              1. yehat2
                yehat2 20 October 2020 09: 43
                +2
                which does not negate the usefulness of the UAV.
                And active attempts to intercept UAVs can run into long-range air defense installations or other ambushes.
                1. prodi
                  prodi 20 October 2020 09: 47
                  -1
                  Tell me, but in the conditions of the use of aviation according to the type of the Yugoslav or Iraqi scenarios, would the defenders with the UAV have much more chances?
              2. Demagogue
                Demagogue 20 October 2020 10: 59
                +3
                The main functions of the UAV are rtr, scanning ols and sar radars. Those transfer data on the movements of the enemy in real time. 24/7. Impact capabilities are just the icing on the cake. In Lebanon in 1982, Israel could scan the positions of the Syrians with radars with e2s, but they also needed UAVs that gave video.
                Aviation is in the air sporadically, but these are all the time.
            2. VO3A
              VO3A 20 October 2020 15: 32
              0
              Read both of my comments above ...
              1. Demagogue
                Demagogue 20 October 2020 16: 01
                +1
                Well, your reasons are obvious. No objections.
                And what I wrote to them does not contradict.
                But here the situation is a little deeper. I will post an article on the topic the other day.
                Now aviation is the first violin, and the infantry, air defense systems, etc. are only auxiliary forces. If in the WWII tank wedges rammed and took the initiative, now aviation. We have an ancient proportion of the sun as a whole. Aviation should be more numerous, and so much infantry is not needed.
          2. Vitaly gusin
            Vitaly gusin 20 October 2020 13: 50
            +1
            Quote: prodi
            in the case of massive use of aviation and normally organized air defense, the use of UAVs will become problematic

            Not always, there are many other factors.
            http://www.vko.ru/voyny-i-konflikty/mir-galilee-razgrom-dlya-rtv
            In June 1982, during the First Lebanon War, during Operation Artsav-19, the largest air battle since the Second World War unfolded in the skies over Lebanon, in which the Israelis with the help of the AQM-34 UAV, Tadiran Mastiff and IAI Scout defeated the Syrian air defense and Lebanon. Syria lost 86 combat aircraft and 18 air defense missile systems. This was achieved thanks to the combination of UAVs with on-board television cameras and missiles guided with their help.
            Tel Aviv made a decision - to destroy the Syrian air defenses in the Bekaa Valley. 9 June 1982. In 14.00, the Israeli Air Force exposed its positions ZRV and RTV with surprise air strikes. In just two hours, 19 spy has been completely destroyed. Another 4 srdn were seriously damaged. Heavy losses suffered and units of PTB. Not a single Israeli aircraft was hit during a massive attack of air defense weapons.
            Peter Moiseenko
            Colonel, Head of the Tactics Department
            and weapons of radio engineering troops
            Military Academy of Aerospace Defense,
            Candidate of Military Sciences

            Valentin TARASOV
            Major General, Associate Professor, Department of Tactics
            and armament of radio engineering troops of the Military
            Academy of Aerospace Defense,
            Candidate of Military Sciences, Professor
            1. VO3A
              VO3A 20 October 2020 15: 39
              0
              The conclusions are correct, only the solutions are old, read my comments above ... I respect authorities, but no more ... Yes, I myself ...
              1. Vitaly gusin
                Vitaly gusin 20 October 2020 16: 28
                0
                Quote: VO3A
                read my comments above.

                Read +
                Quote: VO3A
                The conclusions are correct, only the decisions are old,

                “The wise learns from the mistakes of others, the smart learns from his own, and the stupid repeats them.”
                Bakhtiyar Melik oglu Mamedov 1962
            2. prodi
              prodi 20 October 2020 16: 44
              -1
              following your example of the Arab-Israeli war:
              But you see the difference between the "extended immediate line of contact of the opposing sides" and tens or hundreds of kilometers of scorched earth between them?
              1. Vitaly gusin
                Vitaly gusin 20 October 2020 17: 00
                0
                Quote: prodi
                but you see the difference

                No, I don't. Expand your thought.
                1. prodi
                  prodi 20 October 2020 17: 20
                  -2
                  Iraq and Yugoslavia would never have been able to resist the Western coalitions with the help of UAVs, because when it came to direct contact of ground forces, there was no infrastructure for this.
                  1. Vitaly gusin
                    Vitaly gusin 20 October 2020 17: 44
                    0
                    Quote: prodi
                    Iraq and Yugoslavia would not have been able to resist the Western coalitions with the help of UAVs,

                    You wanted to write like this
                    Iraq and Yugoslavia would never have been able to withstand Western coalitions who conducted preliminary preparations before the offensive using a UAV
                    1. prodi
                      prodi 20 October 2020 17: 46
                      -2
                      actually, I thought that the "first violin" was played there, played by aviation and Tomogawks
                      1. Vitaly gusin
                        Vitaly gusin 20 October 2020 17: 59
                        0
                        Quote: prodi
                        actually, I thought that the "first violin" was played there, played by aviation and Tomogawks

                        Yes, everything is integrated, in modern war it is not separable. Today, UAVs are beginning to replace aviation, especially when passing through electronic warfare.
        2. Fungus
          Fungus 20 October 2020 10: 09
          -6
          Well, the UAV will work against the Papuans. Against normal countries with normal weapons, this is a piece of useless iron.
          1. prodi
            prodi 20 October 2020 10: 21
            -1
            well, here, the Iraqis, and the Yugoslavs - really, it would hardly have happened, but the Chechens against us (with our tactics) - easily
  10. Pastor
    Pastor 20 October 2020 09: 02
    +5
    These are just armies of different generations. Even in computer games, Units of the previous level can be fought, but not for long and with heavy losses. And here people are alive and this is not a toy. Although, judging by the actions of the parties, sometimes it is perceived that way.
  11. Artavazdych
    Artavazdych 20 October 2020 09: 09
    +3
    The Romanian military has established itself since the distant Battle of Stalingrad.
    But seriously - the article by the Romanians is a tautology. Here users would write better ...
    1. Servisinzhener
      Servisinzhener 20 October 2020 09: 14
      +3
      But what about the Grigorievsky landing? wink
      1. Artavazdych
        Artavazdych 20 October 2020 09: 16
        0
        Uh, I don't know ...
        And, now I understand what you mean.
        Yes, since the 41st year already)
        1. Servisinzhener
          Servisinzhener 20 October 2020 09: 22
          +4
          Briefly. Outskirts of Odessa, end of September 1941. From our side there are 1929 people. From the Romanian 2 infantry divisions and a cavalry regiment. Outcome: Victory of the Soviet landing.
      2. Stasi
        Stasi 20 October 2020 09: 58
        +3
        Quote: Servisinzhener
        But what about the Grigorievsky landing?


        Romanians believe - "That was a long time ago, but now we are in NATO" ...

        Непобедимые yes And why? Because nobody wants nafig, "Great Dacia" ...
  12. yehat2
    yehat2 20 October 2020 09: 10
    +9
    It seems to me that the main reason for the success of the UAV is the slovenliness of the Armenian commanders.
    even the old complexes were quite capable of knocking down the bayraktars, if the camouflage and competent change of positions somehow strained them. As bloggers correctly point out, the defense system of Armenia was at the level of the summer of 1941, i.e. completely ignored the threat from the air. As for mobile defense, a piston aircraft would be enough to intercept UAVs, which are somehow inaccessible to ground air defense.
    The second reason is the backward radar equipment. The UAV was corny badly seen.
    This is how the initiative was given to Azerbaijan.
    It is possible to enumerate electronic warfare, communications and other aspects for a long time. But Armenia could well cope without the involvement of additional equipment, if the command staff worked professionally.
    There are dozens of cadres from the battlefield, where the organization of the actions of the Armenian army can be called ridiculous.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 20 October 2020 09: 26
      +1
      You are again trying to reduce failure to the inability of specific commanders
      specific armies and their backward technology.
      It is not.
      And will lead to exactly the same failure of the Russian army in future
      local conflicts.
      Conclusion of the Karabakh war: there is no adequate response of ground air defense to the threat
      shock drones. None, the most modern modifications of Russian complexes
      will not cope with a massive drone attack. They will destroy both the complexes themselves and the equipment,
      which they will cover.
      Therefore, ALL ARMYs need to think about how to reflect these new threats.
      1. yehat2
        yehat2 20 October 2020 09: 40
        +3
        and TOP? it has both multichannel and vertical launch, which accelerates the reaction.
        I do not know about the capabilities of the radar, but in conjunction with the C-400 antenna, which is sufficient, it can work. It seems to me that the Russian Federation has a problem only to bring the cost of the complexes and the tactics of use into line. Suicide drones are good at neutralizing electronic warfare.
      2. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 20 October 2020 09: 44
        +2
        Quote: voyaka uh
        Therefore, ALL ARMYs need to think about how to reflect these new threats.

        Here there is only one way out - to cover the enemy command and logistics points with a massive missile and bomb attack, achieving the loss of control and command over the troops.
        Attack drones are weapons of local wars in a limited area, where the effectiveness of UAVs is limited by their range of use. In Syria, or Karabakh, this can be done, because the area of ​​the theater is relatively small.
        In a large-scale conflict, no one will bother and think about the neighbors. RC and bombs, with the use of aircraft, can and should suppress the slightest desire to use all kinds of drones.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 20 October 2020 09: 54
          +3
          We live in the internet age.
          Drone operators and headquarters may even be located on a different continent.
          What's happening: American drones in Afghanistan are controlled from the territory
          States.
          And no general will give you permission to hit the enemy with ICBMs for
          destruction of small medium-altitude drones. They will say: "Major Petrov, don't be smart,
          handle with whatever means you have. "
          And such means (for the destruction of drones) have not yet been developed.
          And Israel has not developed, and the States, and Russia.
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 20 October 2020 10: 50
            0
            Quote: voyaka uh
            Drone operators and headquarters may even be located on a different continent.

            Alexei...
            The notorious phrase that a retaliatory strike would be struck not only at the launchers, but at the command and logistics centers did not appear today.
            Local conflicts - they are local, because the fighting is limited to a small, geographically speaking, scale. Any encroachment on the territorial integrity of the top countries with strategic nuclear forces will cause just such a reaction.
            Nobody will arrange "air battles" with drones.
            Attack UAVs today are even worse than the appearance of the crossbow in the early Middle Ages. The groans that the crossbow was a weapon of dishonest people led nowhere. Nobody gave up crossbows. They began to urgently seek an answer to the threat of annihilation of the military elite, which had been brought up and trained for generations, and was considered invincible. As a result - the appearance of firearms on the battlefield.
            Therefore, countries with strike aircraft and means of delivering megaton warheads over long distances look at these deadly toys as if they were pampering teenagers.
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 20 October 2020 11: 42
              +4
              "Therefore, countries that have strike aircraft and means of delivering megaton warheads over long distances look at these deadly toys as if they were pampering teenagers" ///
              ----
              And they are making a huge mistake.
              For which they will pay with exactly the same defeat as Armenia paid for, which has made a bet on "reliable, proven weapon".
              Do you think that if suddenly Russia is faced with a smaller country, but strong and ambitious, like Turkey, for example, then
              will Russian generals be allowed to use nuclear weapons? Do not indulge yourself with illusions.
              We'll have to butt with conventional conventional weapons. Just like in Idlib or Karabakh. Only the soldiers will be the Russian regular army, not the Syrian or Armenian.
              Even in clashes of nuclear powers, like India against Pakistan or China, nuclear weapons have not been used and will certainly not be used
              1. stalkerwalker
                stalkerwalker 20 October 2020 11: 57
                +1
                Quote: voyaka uh
                And they make a huge mistake

                Any regional conflict can be nipped in the bud. Especially if it is ripening on national soil.
                Or follow the path of long and difficult negotiations of the "tomato" policy.
                Quote: voyaka uh
                Do not entertain yourself with illusions

                Nobody cheers. And the presence at hand of Ukraine, which so rapidly wished to possess a certain number of shock UAVs purchased from the same Turkey, does not at all oblige the country's military leadership to put its own production on stream.
                An analogy is tens of thousands of light tanks built in the USSR in the 30s of the last century, which burned out like candles in the wind in the battles of a new, in concept, war. The result is lost funds and human resources.
                Quote: voyaka uh
                We'll have to butt with conventional conventional weapons.

                With Kiev?
                It is already clear that there will be no regional conflict as such. Otherwise it would have already begun.
                Alexei...
                Well, you contradict the doctrine and concept of your country's defense policy. For the neighbors, you have one type of weapon, since you don't need more. And in the event of a serious mess, the State of Israel has more than one nuclear warhead ammunition and means of delivery.
                Or not?
                1. voyaka uh
                  voyaka uh 20 October 2020 12: 16
                  +2
                  "Or not?"
                  ----
                  Not this way. The use of nuclear weapons is considered only
                  1) as the last chance in case of complete defeat in a conventional war.
                  Like that: the IDF is defeated and enemy troops enter the territory
                  Israel. Only then will the government allow the use of nuclear weapons.
                  Or 2) in the event of an enemy nuclear strike on the territory of the country.
                  India, England, France, Pakistan have similar doctrines.
                  1. stalkerwalker
                    stalkerwalker 20 October 2020 12: 36
                    +1
                    Quote: voyaka uh
                    Not this way. The use of nuclear weapons is considered only
                    1) as the last chance in case of complete defeat in a conventional war.
                    Like that: the IDF is defeated and enemy troops enter the territory
                    Israel. Only then will the government allow the use of nuclear weapons.

                    Well, well, well, the machine gun answered him ... laughing
                    One should take into account the size of the country, the space that defines it.
                    It makes no sense in Russian conditions to retreat to Moscow again.
                    But there is no point in tolerating swarms of drones on their borders. Especially if these borders are western, southern and southwestern.
                    PS
                    Maybe I'm wrong. In the end, after all, I am not a military specialist, and not even an employee of the RF Ministry of Defense.
                    hi
            2. Elturisto
              Elturisto 21 October 2020 15: 13
              +2
              What kind of nonsense are you talking about? What kind of military elite-knights or what? These are the ones that the infantry fucked up all the Middle Ages? The appearance of hand-held firearms was caused by the general growth of the productive forces of medieval societies embarking on the path of capitalism. Bows and arrows were then used for a long time even in developed countries, until technical progress has not allowed to reduce the cost of producing firearms.
              1. The comment was deleted.
          2. rotfuks
            rotfuks 20 October 2020 12: 18
            +1
            This information is probably gleaned from American action films and popular films. American drones in Afghanistan are operated exclusively from American military bases in Afghanistan. It is for such purposes that American military bases are spawning around the world. The global Internet network is still absent and the use of drones is highly limited by communication channels. In the same Karabakh, there are no overwhelming drone communication channels in principle.
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 20 October 2020 12: 49
              0
              "The global Internet network is still absent and the use of drones is highly limited by communication channels" ///
              ---
              Drones do most of the terrain autopilot flight.
              Operators are not needed all the time. Therefore, communication delays are not critical.
              Global network?
              Let's count: Elon Musk launches 120 satellites a month regularly.
              1440 per year. Target: 12,000 satellites - global communications.
              12000 divided by 1440 = 8.3 years.
              And if his plant doubles the output from 120 to 240 satellites per month - 4 years.
              Yesterday he launched another 60. In total, there are about 800 in orbit.
      3. aslanxnumx
        aslanxnumx 20 October 2020 11: 47
        0
        - that is, the development of the Israeli iron beam is futile?
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 20 October 2020 12: 04
          +3
          This laser was conceived as an addition to the Iron Dome (the same LMS)
          to intercept mortar mines at distances of 2-7 km Zh.K.
          Not against drones.
          Now they are trying to finish Zh.K. and against non-ballistic targets.
          A certain analogue of the Shell-Thor appeared in Israel, with only a few
          types of "wound" missiles with seeker. But it was not tested in combat conditions.
  13. Pavlos Melas
    Pavlos Melas 20 October 2020 09: 18
    +2
    Well, the discussion and analysis of the fighting in Karabakh begins. Now all interested persons must scrupulously study all the results. Naturally, for a global war, unmanned aircraft is only a help, and for regional fights it is quite a taken into account value.
  14. TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 20 October 2020 09: 44
    0
    Romania is the leading developer and manufacturer of air defense - missile defense?)))) The arguments of the Romanian experts remind me of "the reasoning of a blind man about paints")))
  15. iouris
    iouris 20 October 2020 11: 51
    0
    It is high time to understand that it is necessary to invest resources in air defense within reasonable limits. The best defense is offense. Retreat-defensive tactics will ultimately lead to silent death. No one will notice the loss of a soldier ...
  16. Old26
    Old26 20 October 2020 12: 07
    +4
    Quote: Avior
    An important nuance is not taken into account - formally, Armenia does not participate in hostilities, and the fact that they are being worked on in the territory of Azerbaijan.
    This means that the Karabakh army should have such anti-drone aviation, not Armenia.

    Formally, Sergei, yes, Armenia does not participate in hostilities, but look how many weapons the NKR has. In some positions, more than Armenia.
    Offhand.
    • Tanks - from Armenia - 110, from NKR - from 300 to 371
    • Towed artillery - from Armenia about 130-150, from NKR from 300 to 479
    officially the NKR has only 4 "Elbrus" launchers. Where from. And in Armenia, they usually write that there are from 8 to 12 launchers "Elbrus". The NKR has no "dots" and "Iskander" words at all.
    Therefore, although formally Armenia does not participate in the DB in Karabakh, but as before there was a textbook phrase: "We say the party - we mean Lenin, we say Lenin - we mean the party." So it is here. We say "Armenia - we mean Karabakh, we say Karabakh - we mean Armenia"
  17. Vladimir Chursin
    Vladimir Chursin 20 October 2020 15: 24
    -1
    What kind of air defense does the army of Karabakh have ??? What are you talking about !! The army of Armenia does not participate. And from the Karabakh, something that was captured at one time from the Azeris.
  18. Prisoner
    Prisoner 21 October 2020 11: 25
    0
    Egyptian gods! The geniuses of military thought are Romanians.
  19. serezhasoldatow
    serezhasoldatow 21 October 2020 12: 00
    0
    Well, if Romania analyzed it, then ...
  20. Boris ⁣ Shaver
    Boris ⁣ Shaver 23 October 2020 11: 28
    0
    Azerbaijanis do not skimp on guided munitions, which leads to the conclusion: either they have impressive stocks of [kamikaze drones] (which suggests the intention of the conflict)

    Romanians researched, researched, but did not investigate.
    In the very first days of the fighting, the Azerbaijanis ran to buy more from their sellers. This was communicated unambiguously. That speaks very eloquently about the quality of the planning of this operation.