Military Review

Aftermath of the attack on teacher Samuel Pati: French Interior Ministry calls for the expulsion of more than 230 suspected extremism

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Aftermath of the attack on teacher Samuel Pati: French Interior Ministry calls for the expulsion of more than 230 suspected extremism

France is actively discussing the need to take action after the brutal murder of a teacher stories Samuel Pati. Recall that in the suburbs of Paris, Conflans-Saint-Honorine, the teacher's head was cut off for showing cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed in his lessons.


The main suspect is a native of Chechnya. According to some reports, the 18-year-old young man was shot dead by the French police. At the same time, it was previously reported that the teacher could have been killed by the father of one of the students - a native of Algeria.

French Interior Minister Gerald Darmanen believes that in order to reduce the radicalization of society, it is necessary "to expel from the country more than 230 foreigners who are on the lists of suspects in extremism."

It turned out that Darmanen is talking about people, 180 of whom are already behind bars in France, and 51 people the police are already preparing to arrest in the very near future.

Recall that the French President called the murder of the teacher a terrorist attack and said that Pati "died for freedom and tolerance."

The day before, protests against radicalism and rampant Islamist movements in the country were held in Paris. The Prime Minister of France also joined the protesters.

Separately, attention is drawn to the fact that the French authorities decided not to ban the rallies, although the country has introduced strict restrictions in connection with the spread of the coronavirus.

243 comments
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  1. Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 19 October 2020 06: 31
    +6
    Religion kills.
    1. nnm
      nnm 19 October 2020 06: 35
      16
      It is not religion that kills, but people.
      1. Pessimist22
        Pessimist22 19 October 2020 06: 51
        13
        Christians assert: "Christ is omnipotent."
        Well, how not to marvel at that power!
        No matter how omnipotent he resignedly demolished,
        When his mortals beat him!

        The Jews praise us for their deity,
        Good things are told to Jehovah.
        He is kind? How strange! Then why
        Does he demand sacrificial blood ?!

        Persian rites are wildly ridiculous.
        I am surprised at the Tsar Khosrov *:
        After all, in order to "cleanse", the Persians must
        Wash ... with cow urine.

        Reason, the logic of their faith
        And don't you boast, Muslim!
        On the road, passing hundreds of stones,
        Only in Mecca do you kiss a stone.

        Religion by a cunning weave of words
        Places snares for people.
        The snares are different - the catch is unchanged:
        The fool always gets into them.

        ***

        Abu al-Ala al-Maarri (973-1057)
        Translation by V. Demidchik
        1. nnm
          nnm 19 October 2020 06: 58
          10
          And what is this for? Or do atheists kill less? Or is there hatred in the canons of any religion? It seems to be not. But individual people do not care what to use to achieve power - questions of religion, nationality, skull size or ideology
          1. Aleksandre
            Aleksandre 19 October 2020 08: 03
            12
            Quote: nnm
            And what is this for? Or do atheists kill less? Or is there hatred in the canons of any religion? It seems to be not. But individual people do not care what to use to achieve power - questions of religion, nationality, skull size or ideology

            Religion, anyone, is not based on hatred, but on the realization of one's undoubted superiority over those who do not belong to it. ... Well, how can you not be proud of yourself, especially against the background of stupid animals who generally do not believe in God.
            1. nnm
              nnm 19 October 2020 08: 06
              +4
              This is where, for example, in Buddhism or Christianity it is laid
              Quote: Aleksandre
              awareness of their undoubted superiority

              ?
              And what you said cannot be attributed to atheism, remembering, for example, even propaganda or posters of "militant atheists"?
              Why don't you want to just leave faith to people - whatever they choose, believe - not believe, believe in Darwin's conclusions or in the great macaroni monster ... if it does not harm others.
              1. Aleksandre
                Aleksandre 19 October 2020 11: 33
                12
                Quote: nnm
                This is where, for example, in Buddhism

                Buddhism can be considered a religion in the Western sense with a big stretch, because there is no one to worship, no one to beg with loud prayers, no one to ask for help. Buddhism is a spiritual practice of self-creation, which, for a second, corresponds to conscious atheism in the Western sense.
                or Christianity has an awareness of its undoubted superiority

                He did not believe in Gd - he was deprived of eternal life. In general, he is deprived of eternal life. You can ask any closest priest if you have doubts about my words.
                And what you said cannot be attributed to atheism, remembering, for example, even propaganda or posters of "militant atheists"?

                Well, it’s atheists who dragged through the law "on the protection of the feelings of atheists", these atheists are ready to throw shelters and museums out of buildings, for the sake of the interests of some mythical flock, which supposedly does not have enough space to offer prayers ... And who is the militant here?
                Why don't you want to just leave faith to people - whatever they choose, believe - not believe, believe in Darwin's conclusions or in the great macaroni monster ... if it does not harm others.
                I am ready to leave them anything, even addictions, if they pay for it out of their own pocket and do not come to me. But since the "believers" are accustomed to relying on government funding and support for their beliefs, this issue ceases to concern them and only them, but becomes common and accessible for discussion by atheists like me.
                1. Dart2027
                  Dart2027 19 October 2020 11: 52
                  -1
                  Quote: Aleksandre
                  So well, it was the atheists who dragged through

                  When atheism was the official ideology, they did a lot too, so everyone is good.
                2. nnm
                  nnm 19 October 2020 19: 04
                  +2
                  Quote: Aleksandre
                  Well, it’s the atheists who dragged through the law "on the protection of the feelings of atheists", these atheists are ready to throw shelters and museums out of buildings, for the sake of the interests of some mythical flock, which supposedly does not have enough space for offering prayers ...

                  Just for fun, I want to be curious:
                  1. How many shelters have been "thrown out"?
                  2. Oh, I beg your pardon, but the museum was there originally, or before it appeared there, he himself "threw out" someone?
                  Quote: Aleksandre
                  mythical flock

                  And what, excuse me, is the “mythical nature” of believers?
                  Quote: Aleksandre
                  But since the "believers" are accustomed to relying on government funding

                  Can you tell me in which section of the budget I can see the amount you specified?

                  I would understand if you started talking about the excise-free circulation of alcohol, cigarettes, established for the main confessions, well, at worst - about exemption of the church from taxes, I would even understand about watches and yachts with virgins lost in sin, but what you write is , except as baseless and unmotivated conjectures I can not believe.
                  1. Aleksandre
                    Aleksandre 19 October 2020 20: 58
                    +2
                    Quote: nnm
                    Just for fun, I want to be curious:
                    1. How many shelters have been "thrown out"?

                    Go to Google, type a request like "ROC has occupied the premises" and read. The very first links: the district court, the tube on Stromynka, the planetarium, IAI on Nikolskaya, etc. etc. Moreover, as you understand, money is not paid for this, and nothing is provided in return.
                    2. And I beg your pardon, but the museum was there originally, or before it appeared there, he himself "threw out" someone?

                    Before the revolution, Isaac belonged to the state, not to the church, which itself, in fact, was part of the state. Of course, no one refused them to conduct services there both before the revolution and when the museum was there.
                    And what, excuse me, is the “mythical nature” of believers?

                    In their real number. The Ministry of Internal Affairs, as you know, is engaged in the protection of all kinds of events, including the main Orthodox holiday - Easter. He is so important that the main thing is not even to come up with anything, not Catholics tea. So, according to the statistics of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, in 2019, only 4,3 million people all over the country attended Easter services (not simultaneously or without staying throughout the holiday, but someone came, someone left). It's all. Are existing temples missing for these several million people? Do you need to build new ones? No, go any day on the nearest of them, the flock is small, there is no crush at all.
                    Can you tell me in which section of the budget I can see the amount you specified?
                    I would understand if you started talking about the excise-free circulation of alcohol, cigarettes, established for the main confessions, well, at worst - about exemption of the church from taxes, I would even understand about watches and yachts with virgins lost in sin, but what you write is , except as baseless and unmotivated conjectures I can not believe.

                    Here you have to pay me a million, and I'm kind today and say - no need, leave yourself for food. Now tell me, did I finance you? What difference does it make which way the financing goes if it is always from the budget to the church treasury? Well, at the request "the Russian Orthodox Church occupied the premises" also do not forget to read, the premises are transferred without-a-way-mez-bottom, that is, for the state account.
                    1. nnm
                      nnm 19 October 2020 21: 08
                      -1
                      Quote: Aleksandre
                      Go to Google, type a request like "ROC has occupied the premises" and read.

                      Bravo!!!!! Why answer the elementary question "HOW MANY SHELTERS", when you can put everything together and say - look for yourself.
                      Quote: Aleksandre
                      only 4,3 million people across the country. It's all. Are existing temples missing for these several million people?

                      I will not check the figure. It makes no sense. But you have a strange logic. That is, if we take the number of Muscovites who celebrated the New Year on Red Square, we get the number of people celebrating this day in the capital? Extremely dubious evidence.
                      And about Isaac again write absurdities! Can you tell me, before the revolution, was the church separated from the state or not?
                      Quote: Aleksandre
                      Here you have to pay me a million, and I am kind today and say - no need, leave yourself for food.

                      I don't owe you anything. However, I believe that since you are making a statement on state funding, you can simply provide a link to a specific line of the federal budget, or a budget of a different level? Instead of ten lines of empty text ..
                      1. Aleksandre
                        Aleksandre 19 October 2020 22: 12
                        +1
                        Quote: nnm
                        Bravo!!!!! Why answer the elementary question "HOW MANY SHELTERS", when you can put everything together and say - look for yourself.

                        And really, don't care what the hospital and the institute are, take out and put down the shelter. I saw the shelter (or hospice) in the lists, but perhaps on some regional site, I did not find it offhand.
                        I will not check the figure. It makes no sense.

                        https://мвд.рф/news/item/16714044/
                        But you have a strange logic. That is, if we take the number of Muscovites who celebrated the New Year on Red Square, we get the number of people celebrating this day in the capital? Extremely dubious evidence.

                        New Year is a secular holiday, which does not oblige ordinary people to anything. They want - they celebrate, they don't want - they are drunk in the salad from 6 pm. But those who consider themselves Orthodox, churched, have certain rules of conduct. Or do you think that since you didn't even go to church on Easter, the rest of the days it will be there like a bayonet?
                        And about Isaac again write absurdities! Can you tell me, before the revolution, was the church separated from the state or not?

                        You do not read carefully: I wrote that the church was part of the state.
                        I don't owe you anything. However, I believe that since you are making a statement on state funding, you can simply provide a link to a specific line of the federal budget, or a budget of a different level? Instead of ten lines of empty text ..
                        Excise and tax-free, about which you yourself write, this is exactly the kind of financing, as if you transfer a suitcase with wads of money straight from hand to hand. No difference. Because if you collect all this, the money would go to the treasury, and so - to the church.
                      2. nnm
                        nnm 19 October 2020 22: 33
                        0
                        Quote: Aleksandre
                        And really, don't care what the hospital and the institute are, take out and put down the shelter. I saw the shelter (or hospice) in the lists, but perhaps on some regional site, I did not find it offhand.

                        Then why initially make deliberately unconfirmed, exaggerated and false statements? Why remember museums and institutes for the tenth time, if I asked you exactly about the number of shelters you mentioned ...
                        Quote: Aleksandre
                        https://мвд.рф/news/item/16714044/

                        I say - I do not see the point because of the incomparability of your correlation.
                        Quote: Aleksandre
                        But those who consider themselves Orthodox, churched, have certain rules of conduct.

                        This is absolutely not the case. There are many sick, old people who walk when possible, many who walk when they feel the need for it, and so on. The church community is an insignificant part of the believers.
                        Quote: Aleksandre
                        You do not read carefully: I wrote that the church was part of the state.

                        Accordingly, you, like that old man Kant, created a proof that you yourself refuted. For it is ridiculous to cite Isaac, who was the property of the state united with the church, as an argument.
                        Quote: Aleksandre
                        Excise and tax-free, about which you yourself write, this is exactly the kind of financing, as if you transfer a suitcase with wads of money directly from hand to hand.

                        No. This is not government funding. That is, if the VAT rate on food is lower than the general rate for other groups, do I receive government funding for my food purchases? Well, unexpectedly.
                        You either use the correct terms, or just say right away that you are manipulating inaccurate circumstances.
                      3. Aleksandre
                        Aleksandre 20 October 2020 08: 32
                        0
                        Quote: nnm
                        Then why initially make deliberately unconfirmed, exaggerated and false statements? Why remember museums and institutes for the tenth time, if I asked you exactly about the number of shelters you mentioned ...

                        That is, the orphanage is important, but you preferred to forget about the hospital and the institute? Ok, I understood the tactics. Oh, those slippery "believers" wassat
                        This is absolutely not the case. There are many sick, old people who walk when possible, many who walk when they feel the need for it, and so on. The church community is an insignificant part of the believers.

                        You have completely lost the thread of the conversation, while you have the audacity to accuse me of a lack of logic. The point was that 4,3 million is the maximum that came to church on the day of the big holiday. On other days, this number will, of course, be even less. And if at the moment there are enough rooms for these worshipers, then why do we need to build / squeeze even more churches ?? Yes, the answer is simple - to seize property and land.
                        Accordingly, you, like that old man Kant, created a proof that you yourself refuted. For it is ridiculous to cite Isaac, who was the property of the state united with the church, as an argument.

                        a) Isaac was built with government money, government money, not church money.
                        b) The Church was part of the state, but it also had some finances of its own.
                        c) How does it follow from all this that the church, which is not a part of the state after the revolution, is the owner of Isaac's building?
                        Naturally, you would have read that very mentioned Kant, a little logic will not hurt you.
                        No. This is not government funding. That is, if the VAT rate on food is lower than the general rate for other groups, do I receive government funding for my food purchases? Well, unexpectedly.

                        Yes, if the state shares its income with any person / object, then this person / object receives state funding. Dear, do not disgrace yourself already, eh?
            2. Motorist
              Motorist 19 October 2020 23: 08
              +1
              Quote: Aleksandre
              these atheists are ready to throw shelters and museums out of buildings

              I personally feel sorry for [once] the longest Foucault pendulum!
        2. kaban7
          kaban7 19 October 2020 08: 41
          -3
          There is no such thing in Orthodox Christianity.
        3. Boris ⁣ Shaver
          Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 09: 16
          0
          Quote: Aleksandre
          In religion, any, is not hatred, but the awareness of your undoubted superiority over those who do not belong to it, For both your God is correct, and forgive if that

          I was always surprised by the urge of people to talk about religion without having the slightest idea about it. Pay attention, even on this site 99% of topics about religion are raised by its opponents. What for? Is something gnawing?
          Regarding the question raised:
          .Gospel of Matthew
          ...
          7:21. Not everyone who says to Me: "Lord, Lord!"
          will enter the kingdom of heaven, but fulfilling the will
          My Heavenly Father.

          Much clearer. Not "rituals", but the fulfillment of the commandments is put at the forefront.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
              Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 13: 06
              +1
              Quote: Aleksandre
              opponent

              An opponent is someone who has at least a minimal idea of ​​the subject of discussion and at the same time is able to use logic at least at an initial level. How, for example, can a classic blonde oppose a physicist's dissertation? I know how - hysteria and insults. Well, that is, only she and her friends will think at the same time that she is opposing someone.
              Based on such ideas, I sincerely do not understand why you are trying to get into opponents in an absolutely unfamiliar question to someone?
              You wrote clearly:

              Quote: Aleksandre
              forgive if anything (at execution necessary rituals)

              In the lines you thoughtlessly quoted:
              "doing the will of my Father in heaven"
              it is about the will of the Heavenly Father. It is concluded not in the performance of rituals (a ritual is a physical act that can be performed soullessly / thoughtlessly), but in the fulfillment of the commandments (the two main commandments are also indicated in the New Testament - and they just touch the heart, soul and mind) - in this there is no secret for those who know at least a little the issue under discussion.

              Quote: Aleksandre
              Are you ready

              Of course. Almost any discussion of religion on VO begins in response to attacks such as those that begin comments on this article. There is practically no other way for one of the believers to climb on level ground with sermons (and there is no modet in general).
              1. Aleksandre
                Aleksandre 19 October 2020 16: 03
                +1
                Quote: Boris ⁣ Shaver
                An opponent is someone who has at least a minimal idea of ​​the subject of discussion and at the same time is able to use logic at least at an initial level. How, for example, can a classic blonde oppose a physicist's dissertation? I know how - hysteria and insults. Well, that is, only she herself and her friends will think at the same time that she is opposing someone. Based on such ideas, I sincerely do not understand why you are trying to get into opponents in an absolutely unfamiliar question to someone?

                I go nuts wassat Pour indistinct water on a paragraph, accusing him of incompetence, but not say a word about the mistake. Tell me, is this an acquired property, or has it not been the case since childhood? However, thanks, laughed.

                In the lines you thoughtlessly quoted:
                "doing the will of my Father in heaven"
                it is about the will of the Heavenly Father. It is concluded not in the performance of rituals (a ritual is a physical act that can be performed soullessly / thoughtlessly), but in the fulfillment of the commandments (the two main commandments are also indicated in the New Testament - and they just touch the heart, soul and mind) - in this there is no secret for those who know at least a little the issue under discussion.

                Have you seen many of those who daily and unconditionally fulfill these commandments? So I haven't seen one either. And since for a Christian (or who considers himself to be such) it is like a sin, he needs confession and repentance. And this is already a ritual. Explained clearly?
                I highlighted the essence of the sentence, showing that to the believer - eternal life, well, to the unbeliever, therefore, either to hell, or to nothing, although Gd loves everyone, of course, equally, yeah. As Hydrant said - we will die, and they will simply die.

                Of course. Almost any discussion of religion on VO begins in response to attacks such as those that begin comments on this article. There is practically no other way for one of the believers to climb on level ground with sermons (and there is no modet in general).
                In this case, one should write in this way - "in my subjective opinion, personal feeling, it seems to me so", and not give out some figures taken from the ceiling.
                1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
                  Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 21: 14
                  -1
                  Quote: Aleksandre
                  repentance. And this is already a ritual.

                  When repentance becomes just a ritual, at that moment it loses all meaning. So no, repentance is not a ritual.

                  Quote: Aleksandre
                  to the believer - eternal life, but to the unbeliever,

                  I chewed twice. If the problem is so neglected that you are not able to master the simplest logical chain, then this is no longer for me.
          2. Alex Justice
            Alex Justice 19 October 2020 18: 55
            +3
            I was always surprised by the urge of people to talk about religion without having the slightest idea about it.

            Religions are fairy tales. Why discuss them?
          3. Tank hard
            Tank hard 19 October 2020 19: 53
            0
            Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
            ... Pay attention, even on this site 99% of topics about religion are raised by its opponents. What for? Is something gnawing?

            And here (on the site) "Israelis", "communists", non-believers prevail. Why wait here? request
          4. Motorist
            Motorist 19 October 2020 23: 19
            +1
            Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
            Not everyone who says to Me: "Lord, Lord!"
            will enter the kingdom of heaven

            Shut up logic! Straight, if someone does not try to refute Ohm's law for a section of the circuit, without even knowing about it - is it already a righteous man (electrician) by default? Or I misunderstood?
        4. NEXUS
          NEXUS 19 October 2020 13: 31
          +1
          Quote: Aleksandre
          In religion, any, is not hatred, but the awareness of your undoubted superiority over those who do not belong to it, For both your God is correct, and will forgive if that (when performing the necessary rituals)

          This reasoning is out of place here. This teacher showed CARICATORS ON MUHAMED. For some it is funny, for example, for a newspaper magazine journalist who published these cartoons, while others will consider it a blood insult.
          Everyone reacts to an insult differently. If your family begins to publicly revile some kind of imbitil, with the last words, you will most likely clean up the scoreboard for him. And the other, in the same situation, will shoot the monster.
          I am not justifying the actions of this Muslim ... of course, everything could and should have been decided differently, but ... French society, since the first publication of these cartoons by Charlie Hebdo, has not drawn any conclusions and has not condemned this act. this shop.
          I will say more, they themselves incite these conflicts ...
          Charlie Hebdo will republish the cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad that caused the terrorist attack
          1. Aleksandre
            Aleksandre 19 October 2020 16: 10
            +6
            Quote: NEXUS
            This reasoning is out of place here. This teacher showed CARICATORS ON MUHAMED. For some it is funny, for example, for a newspaper magazine journalist who published these cartoons, while others will consider it a blood insult.
            Everyone reacts to an insult differently. If your family begins to publicly revile some kind of imbitil, with the last words, you will most likely clean up the scoreboard for him. And the other, in the same situation, will shoot the monster.
            I am not justifying the actions of this Muslim ... of course, everything could and should have been decided differently, but ... French society, since the first publication of these cartoons by Charlie Hebdo, has not drawn any conclusions and has not condemned this act. this shop.
            I will say more, they themselves incite these conflicts ...

            Firstly: do you generally feel the difference between "stuffing the face" and "cutting off the head", or is this the essence of the same thing for you?
            Secondly: I personally do not believe that Gd can be in the position of being deceived. If he is and so omnipotent, as is commonly believed, then he is up to all these blasphemies - as you are up to the curses of the microbes, which you sprinkle with homestom. If it is not there, then all the curses again go into the void, for the absence of the object of these curses.
            Thirdly: if a person really believes in something, then some ridicule will not be able to embarrass him in principle, he is convinced that he is right and will only laugh. But the poseur, who does not have such confidence, of course, will infuriate, to the point of hysteria. It is not a question of having a fool journalist, but a question of the strength of faith.
            1. NEXUS
              NEXUS 19 October 2020 17: 36
              -2
              Quote: Aleksandre
              Firstly: do you generally feel the difference between "stuffing the face" and "cutting off the head", or is this the essence of the same thing for you?

              Secondly ... you need to read carefully and thoughtfully, dear. When you mock Mohamed or Jesus, you will write an angry comment on social networks at best. Another person will register this "joker" with a face about a table. It all depends on how zealous a person is about his religion.
              In the 15th century, the Inquisition did not remind us of what they were doing? Children were burned simply because they had red hair. Where is the condemnation?
              This figurant turned out to be a fanatic, obsessed with this religion of his and, accordingly, he was outraged and angered by this attitude towards his prophet, whom he reveres as his father.
              And the French society doesn't care about these religious dogmas. They are on the hype ... they paint caricatures in stupid and incompetent rags and think it's funny. And this teacher also thought so that it was funny, funny, touching, neighing at the main prophet of Muslims. Well, he ran into a zealous fanatic.

              Quote: Aleksandre
              Thirdly: if a person really believes in something, then in principle, some ridicule will not be able to embarrass him,

              Oh, how ... well then, go to Chechnya or Dagestan, and on the main square of the same Grozny, stand still with the caricatures of Muhamed, I'll see what will be left of you and where these cartoons will end up in your body.
              1. Alex Justice
                Alex Justice 19 October 2020 19: 02
                -2
                They are on the hype ... they paint cartoons in stupid and mediocre rags and think it's funny.

                Don't like it, don't read it. Many people love religion cartoons.
                1. NEXUS
                  NEXUS 19 October 2020 20: 33
                  +1
                  Quote: Alex Justice
                  Many people love religion cartoons.

                  So go with these cartoons to Saudi Arabia ... they will quickly explain to you there and even show that you cannot laugh at a saint for believers, and then, if you are still alive, (which is unlikely), you will be executed.
                  1. Alex Justice
                    Alex Justice 20 October 2020 08: 59
                    -1
                    Saudi Arabia is a country of obscurantism. My leg won't be there. I live in a democratic country. Joking at religion is not a crime here.
            2. nnm
              nnm 19 October 2020 19: 17
              +3
              Quote: Aleksandre
              Thirdly: if a person really believes in something, then some ridicule will not be able to embarrass him in principle, he is convinced that he is right and will only laugh.

              An extremely dubious proposition. The whole story points exactly to the opposite. People of all ages perfectly cut each other for their beliefs, and, moreover, not connected with religion. The last example is that the United States is confident that Russia in its present form should not exist, but for some reason there are fewer smiles from them, and more and more actions. Well, either as a struggle of political systems, or a war over borders, or a war for colonies, or a war for ... yes, there are no numbers for these very reasons, when each side is confident that it is right. And when actions are certainly not limited to smiles.
              1. Aleksandre
                Aleksandre 19 October 2020 21: 09
                0
                Quote: nnm
                An extremely dubious proposition.

                I actually indicated that we are talking about believers, there are few of them. Very little. I have not written about posers and zealous neophytes.
                There's a little boy, sawed off his head. And you go to the old imam and express your disagreement with the prophet. He does not care about your words, he has long ago put everything on the shelves in his life and decided how and what.
                1. nnm
                  nnm 19 October 2020 21: 15
                  +1
                  Yes, yes, yes .... tell this to the hierarchs who endure a fatwa for destruction, for example, Solomon Rushdie for poetry! Or express to "old imams" in Qatar, Oman, etc.
                  Quote: Aleksandre
                  disagreement with the prophet.

                  I'll look at the result with pleasure.
                  1. nnm
                    nnm 19 October 2020 21: 40
                    0
                    Salman Rushdie *
                  2. Aleksandre
                    Aleksandre 19 October 2020 22: 02
                    +1
                    Quote: nnm
                    Salman Rushdie *

                    Yes, I understand who it is. He lives and lives to this day, despite the non-childish amount that was allegedly promised for his head. There was not even a single assassination attempt. However, to give an example of the religious fanatic Khomeini, who thought a lot in the revolution, is such an idea)
                  3. nnm
                    nnm 19 October 2020 22: 18
                    0
                    Yes, of course, that's exactly how it was ...
                    "The first and loudest victim of the fatwa was Hitoshi Igarashi, 44, a translator of Satanic Verses into Japanese. He was found dead on the grounds of the University of Tsukuba: the assassins stabbed the translator several times and fled the scene. A few weeks earlier, he was subjected to a similar attack. Ettore Capriolo, 61, Rushdie's Italian translator: a Muslim fanatic broke into his Milan apartment and attacked Capriolo with a knife. The translator survived, but remained in critical condition for a long time. In Oslo, assassins attacked the Norwegian publisher William Nygard, who survived only miraculously. Two Muslim leaders who opposed Rushdie's death sentence were shot dead in a street in Belgium. "

                    And Salman himself was under the protection of the special services of Britain, then the United States. If I'm not mistaken, at one time I even lived at military bases ...
                    I propose a compromise - you stop writing just for the sake of writing, and in return I will pretend that I do not notice your unfounded passages ...
        5. Tank hard
          Tank hard 19 October 2020 19: 58
          +3
          Quote: Aleksandre
          Do you even feel the difference between "stuffing the face" and "cutting off the head", or is this the essence of things of equal value to you?

          The French teacher felt it, however .. It was a comprehensive lesson.
        6. Captain Pushkin
          Captain Pushkin 19 October 2020 22: 17
          -1
          Quote: Aleksandre
          I personally do not think that Gd can be in the position of being deceived. If he is and so omnipotent, as is commonly believed, then he is up to all these blasphemies - as you are up to the curses of microbes, which you sprinkle with homestom. If it is not there, then all the curses again go into the void, for the absence of the object of these curses.

          Quote: Aleksandre
          if a person really believes in something, then some ridicule will not be able to embarrass him in principle, he is convinced that he is right and will only laugh.

          In your opinion, those girls who staged obscene dances in church and received real prison terms for this were convicted in vain? You just had to laugh and well, let them dance further?
          1. Megatron
            Megatron 20 October 2020 12: 51
            0
            If they just danced, without specifying you know who, they would have let everything down. In addition, religion is right now - the second hand of the regime, as under the tsar people were enslaved that "every power is from God" and so on.
          2. Aleksandre
            Aleksandre 20 October 2020 22: 33
            +1
            Quote: Captain Pushkin
            In your opinion, those girls who staged obscene dances in church and received real prison terms for this were convicted in vain? You just had to laugh and well, let them dance further?

            In my opinion, the stupid pusek should have just been kicked out of the temple, perhaps even with scrapped rags and kicks, and that's it. But the church showed both its ability to forgive the offender, and vindictiveness ... However, a couple of months later, I happened to participate in group conversations in Levada, this is something like such a study on a wide topic in the form of a conversation between a dozen or more people with each other. participation of the host. So I want to say: completely different people agreed on one thing - the priests have become deserted and there is no faith in them. Therefore, it may be for the best that it ended this way (not for the better), fewer people will get bogged down in obscurantism.
            1. Captain Pushkin
              Captain Pushkin 21 October 2020 10: 13
              0
              Quote: Aleksandre
              In my opinion, the stupid pusek should have just been kicked out of the temple, perhaps even with scrapped rags and kicks, and that's it.

              I agree.
      2. Lelek
        Lelek 19 October 2020 18: 29
        +2
        Quote: NEXUS
        ... French society, since the first publication of these cartoons by Charlie Hebdo, did not draw any conclusions and did not condemn this act. Moreover, they did not close this shop.

        hi , Andrew.
        Exactly. The French legislation provides for 2 years "on bunk" for insulting the feelings of believers. Was anyone imprisoned for the first incident with this "abdo"? Is a case open against this magazine and its journalist in today's case? No and no. So they will continue to shoot and cut heads, and Emmanuel will utter pretentious spokes from the TV screen. Yes, here's another - friend Donald dropped friend Emmanuel one step into the state. hierarchy. bully
  2. The eye of the crying
    The eye of the crying 19 October 2020 23: 35
    +1
    Quote: nnm
    Or do atheists kill less?


    Oh sure. At least because there are many more believers in the world.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 19 October 2020 08: 46
    +5
    Quote: nnm
    It is not religion that kills, but people.

    The French authorities did everything to make this happen. They invited outsiders without controlling their defiant behavior, which caused hatred. As if the teacher didn't know what happened before on this topic
  • Senka naughty
    Senka naughty 19 October 2020 11: 10
    -1
    Who among these niggas and Muslims is French?
  • Alex Justice
    Alex Justice 19 October 2020 18: 51
    +1
    It is not religion that kills, but people.

    religion rules them
  • the Saint
    the Saint 20 October 2020 23: 33
    -1
    For cutting off the head of a French teacher, the unfortunate highlanders will pay by deportation back to the Russian academician.
  • Boris ⁣ Shaver
    Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 06: 40
    -12 qualifying.
    Quote: Pessimist22
    Religion kills.

    For example, atheism?
    In the 30s, the fanatics of this religion cut the throat of not one teacher, but thousands of people who did not agree with their religion were deprived of their lives. Do you approve?
    1. Pessimist22
      Pessimist22 19 October 2020 06: 50
      13
      Who said that everyone has the right to education and gave this right to everyone?
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 19 October 2020 07: 03
        -4
        Quote: Pessimist22
        Those who said that everyone has the right to education

        The fact that they killed for their ideas does not negate this.
      2. Boris ⁣ Shaver
        Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 07: 17
        0
        Quote: Pessimist22
        Who said that everyone has the right to education and gave this right to everyone?

        There are good people among the representatives of any religion, probably.
        But how could these good people educate those who had already been killed by other members of their religion?
      3. Ka-52
        Ka-52 19 October 2020 07: 26
        -6
        Who said that everyone has the right to education and gave this right to everyone?

        educated, but dozens of academicians and hundreds of doctors of sciences were shot. Whole directions in science were beheaded.
        1. Ka-52
          Ka-52 19 October 2020 09: 37
          0
          oh sorry, again encroached on the holy cow of the communist-Leninists what
          all the same we live in a good time. Here the apologist of faith in Ilyich put a minus and calmed down. But 85 years ago, he would have sprinkled an anonymous letter on an enemy of the people and would have had to get up to the wall lol the funny thing is, both then and now, they believe in what they are doing. And you say - atheists wassat
        2. Ivan Kolodin
          Ivan Kolodin 20 October 2020 06: 09
          0
          No need to waste time on trifles, just write millions, Stalin could not live like this so that in the morning a couple of dozen personally would not shoot doctors of sciences ...
          1. Ka-52
            Ka-52 20 October 2020 06: 35
            -3
            No need to waste time on trifles, just write millions,

            Well, if you take your finger out of your nose and poke it into the keyboard a couple of times, then go and type a request in Google about the number of Soviet scientists repressed in the 30s of the last century. Although ... I think your level is to taste it in the comments and fly further yes
            And Stalin himself did not shoot. He only endorsed the lists to be liquidated. And only sentences and executions - he had a whole department of the People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs
            1. vlad106
              vlad106 20 October 2020 11: 57
              +1
              Quote: Ka-52
              And Stalin himself did not shoot. He only endorsed the lists to be liquidated. And only sentences and executions - he had a whole department of the People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs


              and who was there in these commissariats worked in the leadership, can you tell me what kind of breed?
              1. Ka-52
                Ka-52 20 October 2020 12: 04
                +1
                and who was there in these commissariats worked in the leadership, can you tell me what kind of breed?

                and what breed? and what explains it?
                1. vlad106
                  vlad106 20 October 2020 15: 11
                  +1
                  Quote: Ka-52
                  and who was there in these commissariats worked in the leadership, can you tell me what kind of breed?

                  and what breed? and what explains it?

                  For the indigenous peoples of Russia, who see and understand what happened after 1917, as a result of the Red Terror, the Civil War, after the collapse of the USSR and October 93, this explains a lot and shows who is to blame and what the problem is.
                  1. Ka-52
                    Ka-52 21 October 2020 04: 35
                    0
                    I apologize, but I didn’t understand anything - what does the repression against Soviet scientists have to do with this phrase
                    For the indigenous peoples of Russia who see and understand

                    which are they? I hope you will not talk about Drevlyans, Krivichi, etc. now? ))
                    In principle, for those who can not be prejudiced (which the rabid fanatics of this or that political system did not have when they were born here, at VO) to look at our history, everything is really clear.
    2. unhappy
      unhappy 19 October 2020 07: 00
      0
      For example, atheism?
      In the 30s, fanatics of this religion cut the throat of more than one teacher.

      Atheism is a religion belay well, let's surprise us again ...
      1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
        Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 07: 18
        -3
        Quote: unhappy
        Atheism is a religion

        Sure. Some believe in God, others believe in His absence. Both the first and the second are based only on faith.
        1. Ka-52
          Ka-52 19 October 2020 07: 35
          +1
          Sure. Some believe in God, others believe in His absence. Both the first and the second are based only on faith.

          atheism is not a religion of course in the literal sense. But since nature does not tolerate emptiness, atheists easily find other objects of worship for themselves. In the USSR, these were the leaders. Sincere faith in a light, infallible image of which apologists of the world's major religious confessions would probably envy
          1. Machnamh
            Machnamh 19 October 2020 09: 02
            +3
            Ka-52 (Andrey)
            Today, 07: 35
            Sure. Some believe in God, others believe in His absence. Both the first and the second are based only on faith.

            atheism is not a religion literally of course

            So I think, I think ... And how is religion different from just belief in God? And why do they usually think that if God exists, then he has something to do with what they have already created? He did and forgot. Buddhists seem to have no such concept of God at all. And they don't load anyone with their faith. And all these Akbars and Orthodox with Catholics and other Jews are kind of nuts. It seems to them that God is offended and He has something to do with them, how they worship Him and turn to Him ... Maybe God, on the contrary, will be more amused and like it if they begin to cover Him with what unprintable expressions ...
            1. Ka-52
              Ka-52 19 October 2020 09: 17
              -2
              And how is religion different from simply believing in God?

              probably the point is in the interpretation of concepts. Atheism is the denial of religion. Religion is belief in supernatural (divine) powers. Atheists believe in the natural origin of all things. Therefore, from the point of view of faith - atheists are believers, from the point of view of religion - no.
              1. Galleon
                Galleon 19 October 2020 09: 29
                +2
                An atheist is a person who hates God because He does not exist.
                1. Alex Justice
                  Alex Justice 19 October 2020 19: 10
                  0
                  An atheist is a person who hates God because He does not exist.

                  What nonsense? An atheist doesn't care if there is a god or not.
                  1. Galleon
                    Galleon 19 October 2020 19: 57
                    +1
                    This is the thought of Terry Prachett, the writer. And if we compare him and you, which of you is the foolish one, I have no doubts about your victory. As well as intellect, culture and upbringing (as well as knighthood and the order of the British Empire) will be on the other side, on his side. I’m sure he didn’t throw “what nonsense?” Lines to strangers.
                    1. Motorist
                      Motorist 19 October 2020 23: 41
                      +3
                      Quote: Galleon
                      And if we compare him and you, which of you is more foolish, I have no doubts about your victory.

                      Minus you (subjective, of course) - you personally do not know either this "knight" or the person under the nickname Alex Justice.
                    2. Galleon
                      Galleon 20 October 2020 10: 53
                      +3
                      Vasisualy Anempodistovich, why are you here with your remark? You didn't graduate from our "universities" that you decided to sign for Alex against Terry Prachett? request Does he blow his nose further against the enthy Englishman? Personally, I don't know Alex, but I see what a peremptory blizzard he carries. And this already characterizes - the bird can be seen from the droppings.
                    3. Motorist
                      Motorist 20 October 2020 18: 54
                      0
                      Quote: Galleon
                      Vasisualy Anempodistovich, why are you here with your remark?

                      Galleon, hello. If you contacted me, then I will answer (I will not distort the nickname). Your comment seemed too harsh to me - I put an assessment and decided to additionally substantiate (I don't often do this, but this time the stars converged).

                      Quote: Galleon
                      You did not graduate from our "universities"

                      I confess - I lied about education when registering for VO. Seriously - the site is public, public comment of public comment, the rules are not violated.

                      I hope my answer is sufficient. All the best to you! hi
          2. Rzzz
            Rzzz 19 October 2020 11: 40
            +2
            Quote: Ka-52
            Religion is belief in supernatural (divine) powers

            Religion is the dogma approved by the authorities, aimed at managing the broad masses of the population.
            It has only to do with faith that among the poorly educated masses there is a substitution of concepts, they are told that they should believe in the right God, and follow the orders of this uncle, in expensive clothes, because he is the representative of God in your village.
            1. Ka-52
              Ka-52 19 October 2020 11: 57
              0
              Religion is the dogma approved by the authorities, aimed at managing the broad masses of the population.

              the religion of early Christians in the days of pagan Rome - is it "dogma approved by the government"? Faith is too vague and generalized concept. Belief may be that the Earth is flat, that the United States is a stronghold of democracy, and that burning tires and wearing saucepans on their heads improves the life of the average citizen of the country. But this has nothing to do with religion. You mistakenly think that religion is temples, the Russian Orthodox Church or the Great Synod. Nifiga like
            2. Boris ⁣ Shaver
              Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 12: 17
              +1
              Quote: rzzz
              dogmas approved by the authorities

              Putin or Yeltsin wrote the New Testament?
            3. Alex Justice
              Alex Justice 19 October 2020 19: 13
              0
              Religion is the dogma approved by the authorities, aimed at managing the broad masses of the population.

              Quite right. Religion is business. The more people covered, the more money is at stake. So religions are fighting for the money of the people.
              1. Ka-52
                Ka-52 20 October 2020 04: 22
                -2
                Quite right. Religion is business. The more people covered, the more money is at stake. So religions are fighting for the money of the people.

                so thinks only those who have a worldview and erudition below the plinth. Religions have been around long before money existed. The reason for their appearance is an attempt to find a justification for the unknown forces of nature. At the dawn of civilization, it was easier for people to think that a great spirit was hiding in grief. After all, the science of "volcanology" did not exist then.
                1. Alex Justice
                  Alex Justice 20 October 2020 09: 04
                  -1
                  The reason for the emergence of religions is not an attempt to find a justification for the unknown forces of nature, but to keep the people in check and rob them. New religions are springing up every day. One goal is to appropriate the money of the flock.
                2. Ka-52
                  Ka-52 20 October 2020 10: 23
                  -2
                  but to keep the people in line and plunder them. New religions are springing up every day. One goal is to appropriate the money of the flock.

                  what nonsense. Once again, I ask the question: the religion of the early Christians, with which the Roman emperor Nero fed the lions in the arenas, was also for the sake of "keeping the people in line"? Then the flock did not have money. There were no priests, churches, etc. Those first preachers among Christians lived much worse than their flock and most of them were executed. You don’t even try to think, you just mumble hackneyed cliches. The thought of dividing religion as a belief in God and churchmen, who often parasitize on this belief, does not even come to your empty brain.
        2. Alex Justice
          Alex Justice 19 October 2020 19: 08
          +2
          Atheism is the denial of religion. Religion is belief in supernatural (divine) powers. Atheists believe in the natural origin of everything. Therefore, from the point of view of faith - atheists are believers, from the point of view of religion - no.

          And who am I, an atheist, if I don't care about all religions? I don't believe in fairy tales.
          1. Ka-52
            Ka-52 20 October 2020 04: 19
            -2
            And who am I, an atheist, if I don't care about all religions?

            have you forgotten how to read? I wrote above - atheists are those who believe in the natural origin of everything. That is, scientific justification, not theological.
      2. Boris ⁣ Shaver
        Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 10: 25
        0
        Quote: Machnamh
        Buddhists seem to have no such concept of God at all.

        Initially, this issue was really not considered in Buddhism.
        However, as a colleague of the Ka-52 correctly noted above, "nature abhors a vacuum." And in today's currents of Buddhism there is a God for a long time
  • unhappy
    unhappy 19 October 2020 07: 36
    -9
    Atheists do not take anything for granted, they say - prove it!
    Militant atheism is sort of like "hairy glass" or "green whistle".
    PS; the Orthodox are the most orthodox, they write chronicles from the date of the creation of the world. Are you aware that the world has existed for less than 6 years wassat
    PS2: I'm not an atheist and not a chosen one, an ordinary agnostic hi
    1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
      Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 09: 56
      -1
      Quote: unhappy
      Atheists do not take anything for granted, they say - prove it!

      Yeah. The construction is something like this: prove to me that x is equal to y, or I will believe that x is not equal to y. Believe?
      1. unhappy
        unhappy 20 October 2020 07: 54
        0
        I've read books by reputable atheists. They analyze the texts of the Bible and the Gospel, find and demonstrate the found contradictions to real history. Atheists don't take anything for granted ...
    2. Simargl
      Simargl 19 October 2020 10: 43
      +1
      Quote: unhappy
      Are you aware that the world has existed for less than 6 years
      According to the previously adopted calendar, 7528 from sm.

      Quote: unhappy
      Militant atheism is sort of like "hairy glass" or "green whistle".
      Rather "believing atheist"
  • Avior
    Avior 19 October 2020 08: 23
    0
    You have been ahead of you long ago.
    A certain medieval Christian monk, by the way.
    Who formulated the well-known thesis that it is not necessary to multiply entities unnecessarily.
    However, he did not think that this thesis was very suitable for his belief in God.
    1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
      Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 09: 29
      -2
      Quote: Avior
      formulated the famous thesis

      Do you believe this thesis?)
      1. Avior
        Avior 19 October 2020 09: 36
        -1
        questions of faith are in the church.
        1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
          Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 09: 45
          0
          Quote: Avior
          questions of faith are in the church.

          But you don't know how to prove it. So you either believe in it or you don't. Either you allow both outcomes.
  • The eye of the crying
    The eye of the crying 19 October 2020 23: 16
    +1
    Do you even understand the difference between faith and religion? smile
  • lwxx
    lwxx 19 October 2020 07: 20
    0
    Atheism is a religion
    Some believe that there is a God, others that there is a God. The so-called "militant atheism" is not a religion? A lot has happened under the slogans of atheists, from redistributing funds to influencing the minds ...
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 19 October 2020 08: 01
    +1
    Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
    In the 30s, fanatics of this religion cut the throat of more than one teacher.

    There are enough fanatics both among various religious movements and among atheists. During WWII, there were enough of both. And now nothing has changed, and the world has become much harsher.
  • alimov76
    alimov76 19 October 2020 08: 07
    -1
    and more you can?
  • Narak-zempo
    Narak-zempo 19 October 2020 08: 29
    +5
    Quote: Boris ⁣ Shaver
    Quote: Pessimist22
    Religion kills.

    For example, atheism?
    In the 30s, the fanatics of this religion cut the throat of not one teacher, but thousands of people who did not agree with their religion were deprived of their lives. Do you approve?

    Atheism is not a religion. This is for a start.
    They smashed churches and killed priests with great local enthusiasm, i.e. those same yesterday's Orthodox and Christ-loving Russian people, who were nourished by these same priests.
    1. Avior
      Avior 19 October 2020 09: 22
      0
      attacks on the church after the revolution were in most cases associated with the fact that the church before the revolution was an official part of the state system, and the communists were fighting the remnants of this system, that is, this struggle was primarily political in nature. And atheism is just a means of struggle.
      ... in 1700, Tsar Peter I forbade the election of a new patriarch, and after 20 years he established the Theological College, which was soon renamed the Holy Governing Synod, which, being one of the state bodies, performed the functions of general church administration from 1721 to January 1918, - with the All-Russian Emperor (until March 2, 1917) as "the extreme Judge of this Collegium." During this period, called synodal in historiography, government institutions of the Church (for example, the Synod with its office) were considered as institutions of state administration [54] [55]. The supreme ruler in the church, according to the law, was the emperor: “The emperor, like the Christian Emperor, is the supreme protector and keeper of the tenets of the dominant faith and the guardian of the orthodoxy and of every holy deanery in the church” [56]; it was established that "in the administration of the church, the Autocratic Power acts through the Holy Governing Synod, established by It" [57]. Church institutions received government funding; thanks to the expansion of the borders of the Russian Empire, the territory of jurisdiction of the Russian Holy Synod has significantly increased.
      1. Narak-zempo
        Narak-zempo 19 October 2020 09: 26
        +6
        Right.
        The Bolsheviks freed the ROC from the dictatorship of the state, abolishing the Synod and returning the patriarchate. And at the same time they "freed" from property and state financial support.
        In response, the churchmen rolled out very greyhound demands that nullified the secular character of Soviet Russia. And when Lenin rejected these demands, they called on the flock to war against the "Antichrists."
      2. Boris ⁣ Shaver
        Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 09: 44
        -5
        Quote: Avior
        the church before the revolution was an official part of the state system

        The education system or medicine, for example, too. However, the Church was chosen as the target of the terror.
        1. Avior
          Avior 19 October 2020 09: 58
          +2
          with education it was also different.
          1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
            Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 10: 20
            -2
            Quote: Avior
            differently

            It is not "differently" with the Church.
            And medicine is unanswered.
            1. Avior
              Avior 19 October 2020 10: 34
              +1
              and it was different with the church.
              not all churches were closed.
              medicine as a system was also replaced, the old one was completely removed.
              what?
              1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
                Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 11: 40
                -1
                Quote: Avior
                medicine as a system has also been replaced

                Reform and terror are two different things. Here, sobsno, and there is nothing to discuss.
                1. Avior
                  Avior 19 October 2020 12: 04
                  0
                  Repression was in all areas
                  Somewhere more, somewhere less
                  Under different pretexts
                  1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
                    Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 12: 15
                    -1
                    Quote: Avior
                    Somewhere more

                    So this "more or less" is the essence.

                    If you give this phrase the meaning of "approximately equal", then here you can get to anything. Something like that:
                    "Chikatilo? So what? We all did bad things to our neighbors - some more, some less."

                    Complete nonsense, agree?
                  2. Avior
                    Avior 19 October 2020 14: 58
                    0
                    This is your analogy.
                    I agree, complete nonsense.
                    The education system before the revolution included state and non-state components and was not united and monolithic as a church.
                    Therefore, the teachers of the state cadet schools, for example, suffered more than the national ones.
                  3. Boris ⁣ Shaver
                    Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 23: 04
                    -2
                    Quote: Avior
                    This is your analogy.
                    I agree, complete nonsense.

                    Don't you understand what I wrote?

                    Quote: Avior
                    teachers of state cadet schools, for example, suffered more than national

                    Temples were also in the hands of the military and civilians. Meanwhile, no one made a difference between them.
                    Well, and the medical system, I will try, no one subjected to terror
                2. Avior
                  Avior 19 October 2020 15: 17
                  +2
                  The Church fulfilled the functions of the Ministry of Propaganda, so it naturally suffered.
                  The Ministry of Education touched on this problem in part, practically did not touch the doctors, there was no threat to the new government.
                  The police are also partially - the janitors, for example, were not injured.
                  Firefighters were practically not injured.
                  What makes you think that repression should have been the same in all areas?
                3. Boris ⁣ Shaver
                  Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 23: 08
                  -2
                  Quote: Avior
                  The Church acted as a Ministry of Propaganda

                  Education centers - even more so. This was one of their direct tasks.

                  Quote: Avior
                  what did you get that repression should have been the same in all areas?

                  So this is your thesis: they fought with the Church because it was an institution of power. But if they did not fight with other institutions of the old government, it means that the above statement is erroneous and belonging to the institutions of the old government by itself is not capable of bringing terror to certain groups of people.
                4. Avior
                  Avior 20 October 2020 07: 04
                  +2
                  The Church was not just an institution of the old government, but an institution for the propaganda of the old government - this was its direct purpose in the state apparatus.
                  Naturally, the bodies of the state apparatus of the old government were pursued by the new to varying degrees, depending on their functions and the danger that the new government saw for itself in certain structures - with some more, with others less, with some did not fight at all.
                  Therefore, your statement was wrong.
                  Success.
                5. Boris ⁣ Shaver
                  Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 October 2020 08: 58
                  -1
                  Quote: Avior
                  The Church was not just an institution of the old government, but an institution of propaganda of the old government

                  Propaganda for what? Capitalism and autocracy?
                  Are these the canons of your faith? Of course, you have no reason to think so, except for the propaganda that was once taken on faith. Do you think that propaganda could be objective in this matter?

                  Quote: Avior
                  depending on their functions and danger

                  Here I cannot but agree. The Orthodox faith was the glue on which Russia was "gathered". If not for her oppression, there would be neither Square nor Batka today. For those who feared the unity of Russia, the Church was indeed dangerous.
                  And the hierarchs of the Church at all times were not afraid to denounce the authorities acting to the detriment of Russia. The same Ivan the Terrible had to repress and, subsequently, eliminate Metropolitan Philip, because as soon as the latter had the courage to point out to the tsar his mistakes.
                6. Avior
                  Avior 20 October 2020 09: 11
                  +1
                  you should first get acquainted with the question of the function of the church in the system of pre-revolutionary government
                  hi
                7. Boris ⁣ Shaver
                  Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 October 2020 11: 27
                  0
                  Quote: Avior
                  you should

                  Only after you, monsieur hi
              2. Captain Pushkin
                Captain Pushkin 20 October 2020 11: 34
                -1
                Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
                Ivan the Terrible had to repress and, subsequently, eliminate Metropolitan Philip, because as soon as the latter had the courage to point out to the tsar his mistakes.

                You would also talk about Nikon and how he "strengthened the unity of Russia."
                Nikon's reforms:
                replacing a two-fingered sign with a three-fingered one (the Old Believers assessed this as disrespect for God, as if they were showing him a "fig").
                writing "Jesus" instead of "Jesus".
                reduction in the number of prosphora for the liturgy.
                performing waist bows during the service, instead of bowing to the ground (forehead to the ground).
                during the procession to move against the sun, and not along the sun, as before.
                Hallelujah three times instead of two, during church chants.

                The reason for the split was the too harsh methods that Nikon used to carry out the reform, causing opposition in the church and unrest among the people:
                the forcible seizure of church books, icons and shrines that differ from the Greek canons and their public destruction;
                an unexpected transition to new rules of worship, because of which the people decided that they were trying to impose a new faith on them. Opponents to accept the changes were severely punished, which influenced the attitude towards the patriarch;
                a weak level of education, or the ignorance of the clergy in parishes, who did not understand how to explain the changes in the worship of parishioners;
                poor-quality translation of some texts from Greek into Russian, which began to differ from the old Russian ones, a little, but none the less;
                lack of unity and agreement in the church about reforms. Opponents from the clergy became the spiritual leaders of the Old Believers.
                In 1660, Nikon, by a royal decree, was removed from the patriarch throne, then defrocked and sent into exile in the Feropontov Belozersky monastery. But his reforms were not curtailed and continued to work.
                The consequences of the split are a religious war between the Old Believers and the clergy. The Old Believers were excommunicated from the church and equated with heretics, were persecuted, and sought shelter in the distant lands of the state. The most famous archpriest Avvakum Petrov is the spiritual leader of the Old Believers who was exiled to Siberia for 11 years, then imprisoned in an earthen prison, and then burned alive for disagreeing with the reform.
        2. Captain Pushkin
          Captain Pushkin 20 October 2020 14: 45
          0
          Quote: Avior
          The Church fulfilled the functions of the Ministry of Propaganda, so it naturally suffered.

          The church suffered for a number of reasons.
          The main one - the Church got involved in the Civil War on the side of the opponents of Soviet Power.
          By the way, when the Orthodox Church supported the fight against Hitler, Stalin in 1943 changed the attitude of the State towards the Orthodox Church.
        3. Avior
          Avior 20 October 2020 14: 54
          +1
          Exactly.
          Repressions against the church were associated primarily not with atheism, as stated above, but with the fact that the church became an element of the secular political struggle against the formation of Soviet power.
  • for
    for 19 October 2020 14: 18
    +1
    Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
    Reform and terror

    Well, now these concepts are similar.
  • The eye of the crying
    The eye of the crying 19 October 2020 23: 17
    0
    Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
    The education system or medicine, for example, too.


    Education and medicine are practical. Unlike the church.
    1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
      Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 October 2020 11: 34
      0
      Quote: Eye of the Crying
      Education and medicine are practical. Unlike the church.

      For example.
      If not for the position of the Church, lucidly communicated by St. Sergius of Radonezh to our appanage princes (for which he undertook a long trip through our principalities, leaving his monastery for a while), we would not have acted as a united front against the invaders, Russia would not have thrown off the yoke, and there could be no question of collecting Russian lands ... The very existence of our country would remain a big question. Isn't it practical?
      1. The eye of the crying
        The eye of the crying 20 October 2020 11: 39
        0
        Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
        If it were not for the position of the Church, clearly communicated by St. Sergius of Radonezh to our appanage princes


        Sergius of Radonezh (in the world of Bartholomew; May 3, 1314 or May 1322 - September 25, 1392. ... Why are you referring to what was 600 years ago?
        1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
          Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 October 2020 11: 49
          0
          Why remember your story? Answer this question yourself.
          1. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 20 October 2020 11: 50
            0
            Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
            Why remember your story?


            Why use the events of 600 years ago to inform decisions 100 years ago.
            1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
              Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 October 2020 12: 10
              0
              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              Why use the events of 600 years ago to inform decisions 100 years ago.

              The consequences of the events of 600 years ago are quite felt today, and 100 years ago they were felt no less. These communities are our statehood, neither more nor less.
            2. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 20 October 2020 12: 14
              0
              Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
              The consequences of the events of 600 years ago are still felt today.


              The people and organizations that made these important decisions are long gone. Judging by them about the importance and usefulness of their heirs is at least silly.
            3. Boris ⁣ Shaver
              Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 October 2020 13: 32
              +1
              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              The people and organizations that made these important decisions are long dead.

              "Ideology" lives on. For example, the Orthodox Church did not lose Ukraine and Belarus - it is still there. And the worldly authorities have lost. Realizing the unifying function of the Church, Parashenko started her "reforms" in Ukraine. But it was a fiasco. And this despite the general negative attitude towards the rest of Russia, successfully cultivated in that breakaway principality.
              This communism did not live longer than the last of its revolutionaries. The Church has existed for many centuries, remaining true to its "ideology."
            4. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 20 October 2020 14: 17
              0
              Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
              "Ideology" lives on.


              "Ideology", what a charm. From the word "ideal"?

              Quote: Boris ⁣ Shaver
              The Orthodox Church did not lose Ukraine and Belarus - it is still there


              And it plays absolutely no role. As, however, in Russia. Because now is the XXI century, not the XIV.

              Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
              The Church has existed for many centuries, remaining true to its "ideology."


              Whether it remains true or not is an open question. You have already been reminded of the split, but how Sergius of Radonezh would have perceived it, you do not and cannot know. And, regardless of the constancy of the "ideology," the church that once made important decisions is another church. Which has been gone for 600 years.
            5. Boris ⁣ Shaver
              Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 October 2020 15: 09
              0
              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              and plays absolutely no role

              I gave you the example of Ukraine. Would not play a role, would not have been worthy of an attempt at "reforming." The Orthodox Church in Ukraine today is the basis of the movement for peace - their respective processions of the cross were supported by many people. As a result, the majority of their voters voted for peace, for who, as they believed, this world will bring them. You answer the facts with unfounded statements. The situation here is completely understandable.

              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              Whether it remains true or not is an open question.

              Only for a person who does not know absolutely anything about the subject under discussion.

              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              You have already been reminded of the split, but how Sergius of Radonezh would have perceived it, you do not and cannot know

              But I know how many other great people of the Church perceived him.

              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              a church that once made important decisions is a different church

              Well, we see that the commitment to the unity of the people has not gone anywhere. Therefore, the continuity on a specific issue is obvious.

              Realizing that the horse is not fed, I still give you specific examples. In response, you operate with unfounded statements, expecting that they will be taken on faith. And in a similar way, "leading the discussion" a couple of posts above the person recalled stupidity? Well, here it is in its pure form
            6. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 20 October 2020 15: 34
              0
              Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
              Would not play a role, would not have been worthy of an attempt at "reforming."


              Propaganda needs some reason, the church is a good reason. So I would.

              Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
              Only for a person who does not know absolutely anything about the subject under discussion.


              For those who know something about the subject - too.

              Quote: Boris ⁣Razor

              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              a church that once made important decisions is a different church

              Well, we see that the commitment to the unity of the people has not gone anywhere.


              The chatter about unity has not gone anywhere. But there is no influence on state affairs. And there are still many other things missing.

              Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
              Realizing that the horse is not fed, I still give you specific examples.


              Are "concrete examples" a "commitment to unity"? It's funny. A concrete example is church attendance data. 7% of the population of Russia regularly attend church at least once a week (now it is less, since the data of 2004). 30-40% of the population never attends church. Here is a measure of the influence of the church on life.
            7. Boris ⁣ Shaver
              Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 October 2020 20: 23
              0
              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              Propaganda needs some reason, the church is a good reason. So I would be honored

              There are plenty of reasons. And they poked their heads into Church matters - and got bream.

              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              For those who know something about the subject - too.

              Well, you cannot judge about that.

              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              The chatter about unity has not gone anywhere.

              I have a case for you. Moreover, here local "experts" like you claimed that the Church was terrorized precisely for its propaganda. It turns out for the promotion of unity. It turns out she worked

              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              "Specific examples"

              It is the strength of the position where the worldly position has lost. And a specific inspiration on the minds of millions. And an example of what is the position of the Church for our country, when without it the country could not exist in principle
            8. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 20 October 2020 20: 46
              0
              Quote: Boris ⁣ Shaver
              There are plenty of reasons.


              Others are also being worked out.

              Quote: Boris ⁣ Shaver
              And they poked their heads into Church matters - and got bream.


              Well, what did it affect? Yes, almost no matter what.

              Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
              here local "experts" like you argued that the Church was terrorized precisely for its propaganda.


              I did not state this.

              Quote: Boris ⁣ Shaver
              It turns out, for the promotion of unity.


              Do you think that the church "promoted" exclusively unity? Okay smile

              Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
              And a specific inspiration on the minds of millions.


              What influence, how is it manifested, who measured it and how? smile And "millions" - well, yes, so 7% of 140 million is millions. But this is still 7% (less now). Now the church is not the right one to dictate to appanage princes smile
            9. Boris ⁣ Shaver
              Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 October 2020 21: 38
              0
              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              Others are also being worked out.

              The same periodic targeted attacks on our legal entities are in no way comparable to a company against the Church. It is rather the intrigues of competitors. Now, for example, they bark sluggishly at wilberis. But this is not at all that stubbornness.

              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              did not claim it

              I affirm. The reason for what happened in the 30s is an attempt to limit the influence of the Church on the minds.

              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              do you think that the church "promoted" exclusively unity?

              In the context of our dialogue, this is more than enough.

              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              What influence, how is it manifested, who measured it and how?

              I gave the examples above - read again.

              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              7%

              80% call themselves Orthodox, which means they share what the Church teaches.
            10. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 20 October 2020 22: 06
              0
              Quote: Boris ⁣ Shaver
              The same periodic targeted attacks on our legal entities are in no way comparable to a company against the Church.


              A legal entity is simply a struggle for property. And the church is propaganda with claims to spirituality.

              Quote: Boris ⁣ Shaver
              The reason for what happened in the 30s is an attempt to limit the influence of the Church on the minds.


              Maybe. So what? The Bolsheviks tried to limit many things, the church is not the first here. And the influence of "what happened" should not be overestimated - the church all over the world has been losing "influence on the minds" for the last 300 years, since the beginning of the Enlightenment.

              Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
              80% call themselves Orthodox, which means they share what the Church teaches.


              First, not 80%. Second, it doesn't. How many of these percent know at least the symbol of faith?
            11. Boris ⁣ Shaver
              Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 October 2020 22: 56
              0
              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              A legal entity is simply a struggle for property. And the church is propaganda with claims to spirituality.

              Well, so I mean it. Spirituality is more important than property, etc. Therefore, it is more important to hit it for the opposing side.

              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              Possible.

              This shows the significance and influence of this organization in the period that interested you (not 600 years ago, but 100).

              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              First, not 80%

              Have you counted it personally?

              Quote: Eye of the Crying
              Second, it doesn't mean

              If people say to themselves that they are Orthodox, can you say the opposite for them?
  • Captain Pushkin
    Captain Pushkin 19 October 2020 22: 22
    +5
    Do I understand correctly that atheists slaughtered the Huguenots on Farfolomeev's night?
    1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
      Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 23: 14
      -4
      Quote: Captain Pushkin
      Did atheists slaughter the Huguenots on Farfolomeev's Night?

      Atheists slaughtered Orthodox Christians in the early 20th century in Russia.
      Who cut the Huguenots - Duc others are the same as fanatics atheists.
      We, Orthodox, equally judge the actions of atheists in our country at the beginning of the 20th century, and the actions of Catholics in France in the second half of the 16th century.
      1. Captain Pushkin
        Captain Pushkin 20 October 2020 10: 32
        -1
        I am ashamed to ask, who in Russia burned Old Believers and for what? What were they actually guilty of? Who organized the schism in the Orthodox Church?
        Are atheists to blame for this too?
        1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
          Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 October 2020 11: 17
          -1
          Quote: Captain Pushkin
          I hesitate to ask, and who burned Old Believers in Russia

          You are rightly shy. Study the issue and do not disgrace
          1. Captain Pushkin
            Captain Pushkin 20 October 2020 11: 26
            -1
            Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
            I hesitate to ask, and who burned Old Believers in Russia

            You are rightly shy. Study the issue and do not disgrace

            Do you know yourself, dear? It's a shame when they poked your nose into your feces?
            So, this time I will repeat the question without hesitation:
            Who burned Old Believers in Russia and why?
            What were they actually guilty of?
            Who organized the schism in the Orthodox Church?
            And try to drag atheists here too ...
            1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
              Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 October 2020 11: 40
              0
              Are you an adequate person? Repeat a third time. You can write the same thing a dozen times. Instead of doing the study of common knowledge.
              To know your history is to shoot non-believers, you need brains here.
              And the last thing. Do you approve of the atheist atrocities in the 30s?
  • Graz
    Graz 19 October 2020 06: 54
    14
    and why they let the garbage into the country, this is a question for their politicians, it is strange that they thought that the outcasts were there, they would take root
  • Thrifty
    Thrifty 19 October 2020 07: 16
    +4
    Pessimist 22-kills human stupidity, and religious fanaticism that has nothing to do with religion!
  • anclevalico
    anclevalico 19 October 2020 07: 36
    +3
    Electricity is killing too, count it. So what?
  • Ros 56
    Ros 56 19 October 2020 07: 48
    -2
    Such nonsense has never been read. What about the cobblestone on the street?
  • Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 19 October 2020 08: 00
    -3
    Quote: Pessimist22
    Religion kills.
    fool Turn on your head. It is not religion that kills, but jokes with it. The French were taught a lesson once, they did not learn it. requestI think this incident will not teach them, and so on before the civil war.
    expel over 230 foreigners from the country
    Where, who will take them? Terrorism is not fought like this if it is a global problem. what
  • Invoce
    Invoce 19 October 2020 08: 41
    -2
    Consequences of the attack on teacher Samuel Pati: The French Ministry of Internal Affairs calls to send more 230 suspected extremism

    Then the flood began about who is killing whom (religion or people) and the "doctors" of philosophy and theology exercise the power of their thoughts.
    Nobody noticed the title of the article? Where is France going to send suspects? And suspicion is the basis for deportation? But what about democracy? Or will they deport everyone who looked askance at the representatives of the authorities or spoke not tolerantly? Is this not Nazism? belay
    1. Avior
      Avior 19 October 2020 10: 00
      +3
      read further the title
      most are sitting there, the rest are wanted.
      will be sent to their countries where they came from
  • NEXUS
    NEXUS 19 October 2020 13: 19
    -3
    Quote: Pessimist22
    Religion kills.

    Not a religion, but an attitude towards it. This teacher was not forced to show these caricatures of Muhammad. In addition, the rag that drew these cartoons should have been set on fire long ago on a dark night.
    As for the defendant ... there are fanatics in all religions.
    1. The eye of the crying
      The eye of the crying 19 October 2020 23: 19
      +1
      Quote: NEXUS
      so fanatics are in all religions.


      Who and when was the last time Christian fanatics killed?
  • Megatron
    Megatron 20 October 2020 12: 47
    0
    Maybe 2.3 million Arabs and blacks should be expelled instead of 230 people?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • nnm
    nnm 19 October 2020 06: 32
    18
    Come on! They were fighters against the bloody Russian regime and poor Chechen gays hiding from the evil Kadyrov !!!
    They are all white and fluffy, having received residence permits left and right in a beautiful democratic Europe!
    What to send now for the not yet proven suspicion !!! Just some kind of GULAG !!!! So you are responsible for those you have tamed. Eat now with a full spoon, we don't need them here!
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 19 October 2020 08: 06
      +6
      Quote: nnm
      So you are responsible for those you have tamed. Eat now with a full spoon, we don't need them here!

      Correctly said. We are all responsible for those we have tamed. Let them deal with them themselves.
    2. Captain Pushkin
      Captain Pushkin 19 October 2020 22: 27
      +1
      Quote: nnm
      They were fighters against the bloody Russian regime and poor Chechen gays hiding from the evil Kadyrov !!!

      So they want to send them to Kadyrov? It turns out that he is not evil at all, but all so fluffy and white! Can't the "democrats" send someone straight into the clutches of a "bloody tyrant"?
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 19 October 2020 06: 33
    -2
    Here's something I do not feel sorry for the half-wit of the killed. This should have been thought of so to impose on the Masulman whom you teach. The boy walked to success.
    1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
      Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 06: 43
      +3
      Quote: evgen1221
      This should have been thought of so to impose on the Masulman whom you teach. The boy walked to success.

      It is possible that the person only gave material according to a program previously approved by someone.
      Do you not admit that they have it everywhere for those who have come in large numbers, with the aim, so to speak, of their shock assimilation?
      1. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 19 October 2020 08: 07
        -3
        Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
        It is possible that the person only gave material according to a program previously approved by someone.

        It means that the French have learned the previous lessons poorly.
        1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
          Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 09: 50
          +1
          Quote: tihonmarine
          It means that the French have learned the previous lessons poorly.

          What is the loss of one teacher when "learning" is put on stream? The French said unequivocally that the death of a teacher is not a senseless tragedy, but death precisely for "freedom." Their price is more than satisfied
      2. evgen1221
        evgen1221 19 October 2020 13: 32
        0
        Plow and low-grade cartoons from Charlie Hebdo show this is not in any training program, it is just dementia and courage.
  • Boris ⁣ Shaver
    Boris ⁣ Shaver 19 October 2020 06: 34
    +4
    to reduce the radicalization of society, it is necessary to expel more than 230 foreigners from the country, <...>
    180 of whom are already behind bars in France, and 51 people the police are already preparing to arrest

    Well, why send them out, if they are sitting or almost sitting? For someone else to catch now? Is it a sport or something like that?
  • Asad
    Asad 19 October 2020 06: 37
    12
    Where to send? To Russia ? Thank you, eat it yourself!
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 19 October 2020 08: 09
      -1
      Quote: ASAD
      Where to send? To Russia ? Thank you, eat it yourself!

      They took it ourselves, and even watered Russia with slops, now eat it yourself.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 19 October 2020 06: 38
    15
    The Muslim "peaceful" conquest of Western Europe continues. There will be no second Poitiers. Tolerance you say ...? Hmm ..
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 19 October 2020 08: 10
      0
      Quote: parusnik
      Tolerance you say ...? Hmm ..

      Do they, French, even understand what it is?
    2. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 19 October 2020 08: 52
      +5
      Quote: parusnik
      The Muslim "peaceful" conquest of Western Europe continues. There will be no second Poitiers. Tolerance you say ...? Hmm ..

      I'm waiting with interest ---- will the French talk about tolerance to wild animals, do all sorts of testing experiments?
      1. Polite Moose
        Polite Moose 19 October 2020 09: 40
        +3
        Quote: Reptiloid
        I'm waiting with interest-

        And I, too, with great interest expect from their Charlie Ebdo a series of killer cartoons of the headless teacher. Charlie-and-and-and! Ooh!
        1. Ka-52
          Ka-52 19 October 2020 09: 52
          0
          And I, too, with great interest expect from their Charlie Ebdo a series of killer cartoons of the headless teacher.

          it's not politically correct laughing Political correctness is the lifesaver of European liberals. When you can safely close your eyes to freedom of speech
        2. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 19 October 2020 10: 04
          +5
          Quote: Polite Moose
          ...... And I, too, with great interest expect from their Charlie Ebdo a series of killer cartoons of the headless teacher. Charlie-and-and-and! Ooh!
          even for the teacher, even for the beheaded, and of the gods, of course. There is room for creativity. ((Sarcasm-s bully
      2. parusnik
        parusnik 19 October 2020 18: 22
        +2
        Tolerance is for slaves and slave owners. They do not speak for proletarian internationalism. It is dangerous.
        1. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 19 October 2020 19: 48
          +2
          Quote: parusnik
          ...... They do not speak for proletarian internationalism. It is dangerous.
          such a wonderful idea has been fought in many ways! bully more than a dozen years and were able to push it aside. Only it will come back -------- proletarian internationalism will have its say.
  • askort154
    askort154 19 October 2020 06: 46
    +6
    French Interior Minister Gerald Darmanen believes that in order to reduce the radicalization of society, it is necessary "to expel from the country more than 230 foreigners who are on the lists of suspects in extremism."

    Drive 230 potential terrorists out of the country! But what about the international fight against terrorism ?! They sheltered them, warmed them, and again into the abyss, with fresh strength. Let the others catch them now.
    1. Egoza
      Egoza 19 October 2020 07: 04
      +2
      Quote: askort154
      French Interior Minister Gerald Darmanen believes that in order to reduce the radicalization of society, it is necessary "to expel from the country more than 230 foreigners who are on the lists of suspects in extremism."

      What a naive minister they have! So that they could be so easily expelled from the country, where they are given benefits for free and they can not work at all. At the expense of "children's money" they will feed themselves. Just try to take out only a part - there all their diaspora will rise at once. And it is still unknown how all the other "come in large numbers" will behave. After all, a thought flickers: "once some are evicted, then they will take over us." no really. You better hold these radicals in prisons for 25 years, and then we'll see. Let's hope your prisons are stronger than the Bastille
      1. Polite Moose
        Polite Moose 19 October 2020 07: 51
        +7
        Quote: Egoza
        Just try to take out only a part - there all their diaspora will rise at once.

        To prevent this from happening, you must immediately send 230 thousand (in the lead party). And, preferably, to the authors of the project - to the p-th. And 230 people won't do the same.
      2. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 19 October 2020 08: 13
        0
        Quote: Egoza
        After all, a thought flickers: "once some are evicted, then they will take over us." no really.

        Yes, this is no longer a "little thought", but an already operating and proven method of behavior of emigrants.
      3. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 19 October 2020 09: 00
        +4
        ..... keep the radicals in prisons for 25 years ......
        hi this is certainly correct. Only now there are more than one generation of them, many, probably, have already become real French laughing they know their rights well.
  • Master
    Master 19 October 2020 06: 49
    -6
    For what purpose did the teacher show cartoons of the holy face of Muslims? This is not about radicalism. I'm not radical. But for this I would definitely punch this teacher.
    1. Avior
      Avior 19 October 2020 07: 17
      +4
      There was a topic about freedom of speech.
      These pictures are an illustration to the topic.
      Before the show, their teacher warned that they could offend the feelings of Muslims, and suggested that those wishing to go out for a while and not watch.
      Some of the Muslim children left, some remained, and he went on.
      1. Master
        Master 19 October 2020 07: 35
        +3
        Quote: Avior
        There was a topic about freedom of speech.
        These pictures are an illustration to the topic.
        Before the show, their teacher warned that they could offend the feelings of Muslims, and suggested that those wishing to go out for a while and not watch.
        Some of the Muslim children left, some remained, and he went on.

        Is freedom of speech an insult to whoever you want? If I turn to you with obscenities right now. This will mean that I am right. And is this freedom of speech?
        1. Avior
          Avior 19 October 2020 07: 43
          +2
          If you just tell me about the existence of mate, it will be free speech.
          The teacher did just that.
          But if I kill you for this, it will be a crime.
          1. Master
            Master 19 October 2020 07: 54
            0
            Quote: Avior
            If you just tell me about the existence of mate, it will be free speech.
            The teacher did just that.
            But if I kill you for this, it will be a crime.

            Showing a caricature of an insulting prophet is just a provocation. Well, you're sorry. We have a different mentality. You will not understand me. I do not approve of killing a person. It was just necessary to break a pretty bone so that there were fewer such provocateurs. And murder with the cutting off of the head. Yes, I agree too ..
            1. paul3390
              paul3390 19 October 2020 08: 45
              +4
              Showing a caricature of an insulting prophet is just a provocation.

              And for example, blowing up Buddha statues is like, not a provocation of Buddhists around the world?
            2. Avior
              Avior 19 October 2020 08: 48
              -3
              why? I understand you perfectly.
              If someone threatens you with murder for your legal actions taken in your country, then you will not do them, since you recognize the right of those who threatened to kill you, although you do not approve, especially with cutting off the head.
          2. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 19 October 2020 09: 09
            +1
            Good day, comrades, And if, talking about the existence of the mat show pictures, ?? And if the cartoons ?? This can already be called differently than just freedom ...
            Quote: Avior
            If you just tell me about the existence of mate, it will be free speech.
            The teacher did just that.
            But if I kill you for this, it will be a crime.
            1. Avior
              Avior 19 October 2020 09: 12
              0
              what the teacher did is not considered an insult in France. The situation is obvious.
              And if there is another, then you need to discuss another.
              1. Reptiloid
                Reptiloid 19 October 2020 09: 24
                +1
                Well yes! Of course it doesn't. The teacher didn’t know what happened a few years ago?
                1. Avior
                  Avior 19 October 2020 09: 38
                  +1
                  in France, they do not count.
                  And murder does not cancel this in any way.
        2. Avior
          Avior 19 October 2020 08: 14
          +3
          Again.
          He did not use obscenities to anyone.
          An insult is a specific treatment that is considered to be such in a specific country.
          It is not universal.
          In one country it is an insult, in another it is not.
          In France, caricatures of gods are not an insult.
          If you think otherwise, you should have been admitted not to France, but to another country.
        3. Avior
          Avior 19 October 2020 09: 32
          +1
          I do not advise. get a warning, or even a ban - check the site rules.
          Do you know why? because in Russia it is considered an insult.
          Different countries have different rules.
          if, for example, you write to me that I am an antisocial type, then no one will consider it an insult.
          And in Germany, Asozialer will cost you 600 euros.
          http://kiezinberlin.com/oskorblenie-v-germanii/
          So France has its own ideas about insult.
          in my opinion it is obvious.
      2. ZAV69
        ZAV69 19 October 2020 07: 55
        0
        It turns out that he perfectly understood what he was doing. I just forgot that a couple of years ago, Charlie Ebo's editorial office was shot for this.
    2. unhappy
      unhappy 19 October 2020 07: 18
      11
      A teacher in his country with a specific purpose, obviously not intended to offend Muslims, showed a caricature in the lesson. He is a teacher and wanted to convey to young people a bit of knowledge - he was killed!
      The problem of smart and intelligent people is that they subconsciously perceive people as intelligent creatures and, as a result, cause aggression. People who are stupid, with a blinkered worldview cannot and do not want to understand them - they consider themselves believers, chosen by the gods, that they are expected in paradise because they hate smarter and more successful people.
      1. Ka-52
        Ka-52 19 October 2020 07: 53
        +1
        obviously not intended to offend Muslims, showed a caricature in the lesson.

        Well, after all, nonsense in vegetable oil. Firstly, he perfectly understood that these cartoons are an insult to the Muslim faith. And that tragic incidents are associated with these cartoons. Secondly, the concept of "freedom of speech" can be conveyed by other means and examples. Let him tell as an example of "freedom of speech" how Amanda Kokoeva was gagged on the most democratic television in the most democratic country on August 13, 2008, when she tried to tell who was the aggressor in South Ossetia.
        1. unhappy
          unhappy 19 October 2020 08: 07
          +8
          In France, a caricature of any gods, not just Muslims, is not an insult.
          But the right to freedom of speech has been a special national feature since the time of the French Revolution.
          If such a country is not suitable for you, you need to move to another, to Iran, for example, where it is prohibited.
          Each country has its own rules.
          - from one post of the branch.
          Why can't you hear? You were clearly told that you do not like the laws and traditions of the country that sheltered you - go to your historical homeland, you will be engaged in radicalism-terrorism will be a kirdyk!
          Let's wait for the times when Western democrats remember Stalin and the deportation of not one radical, but a family or ethnic group ...
          1. Ka-52
            Ka-52 19 October 2020 08: 14
            0
            Why can't you hear? You were clearly told that you do not like the laws and traditions of the country that sheltered you - go to your historical homeland,

            I don’t need to preach ideological European values. They are well known to me for such events.
            The Brussels authorities have taken an unexpected decision on the celebration of Christmas. They decided to take into account the opinions of all residents of the city and therefore forbade the installation of a traditional Christmas tree in the center of the Belgian capital in order to avoid offending the feelings of Muslims.

            In Kreuzberg, one of the districts of Berlin, it was forbidden to publicly celebrate Christmas. The fact is that most of the Muslims live in this area of ​​the city, and, in order not to hurt their religious feelings, Christians were allowed to decorate the Christmas tree and hold a holiday only at home.

            In the city of Kokkedale (Denmark), the authorities decided not to put up a New Year tree. “The decision was the result of a vote. It ended the way it ended. For example, I do not celebrate Christmas, and I am not going to buy a Christmas tree, ”said Ismail Mestasi, one of the representatives of the city administration.
            Because of this decision, a real scandal began in the Danish media - especially when it turned out that not long before that the same government, in which at that time five of the nine members were Muslims, allocated eight thousand euros for the celebration of Eid al-Adha.

            about what "country traditions" do you interpret? In Europe, women will soon be forbidden to appear on the streets without a hijab, and you are all about what happened during the time of Robespierre laughing
            1. unhappy
              unhappy 19 October 2020 08: 29
              +3
              Germany had a democracy and an influential Jewish lobby. Suddenly, the humanity and high culture of the whole people disappeared, they still cannot understand how so, impossible !? Everyone knows what they did to the Jewish people with the tacit approval of the absolute majority of the population?
              Will you also be surprised when such events will happen in Europe as a whole? In America now blacks and radicals are furious, but in the background they show people with blue flags "the blue of life are important" these are those who want order and how they will start to restore order - the question is ...
              1. Ka-52
                Ka-52 19 October 2020 08: 44
                -2
                Germany had a democracy and an influential Jewish lobby. Suddenly, the humanity and high culture of the entire people disappeared, they still cannot understand how it is, impossible!

                everything is easy to understand. Nazism easily entered the minds of citizens in the wake of the decline after the First World War. Only two parties offered heavenly mana for working people - the Nazis and the Communists. The fight was on an equal footing. As a result, the Nazis won by dope cheating yes
                blue flags "the blue of life are important" are those who want order and how they will start to restore order - the question ...

                nothing will happen there. The Overton window has been open for too long, white racism has gone too far in the United States. And if it does, it will not be in this century. Faster the Ieluston caldera put on this fat black African American point laughing
                1. unhappy
                  unhappy 19 October 2020 08: 59
                  -1
                  As Bender said, "don't read Soviet newspapers"!
                  In video demos, half-naughties kissing black boots, kneeling? These same idiots will lynch blacks in the first rows of the crowd. I do not believe that the rednecks will bend over and take off their pants, racism is not dead - wink he sleeps
                  1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Avior
              Avior 19 October 2020 08: 52
              -1
              what you brought are isolated cases of deviation from their own rules.
              Christmas trees in Europe at Christmas were at every turn.
              1. Ka-52
                Ka-52 19 October 2020 09: 21
                -2
                what you brought are isolated cases of deviation from their own rules.

                do not make me laugh. Until recently, in the USA and Europe, the word gay was one of the swear words, and the most popular male name was some kind of Mark or Hans. And now gays in government are not just the norm, but even an advantage. And the most popular name for newborns was the name Mohammed.
                1. Avior
                  Avior 19 October 2020 09: 41
                  0
                  Everything changes. In Russia, for example, Tatu and Borya Moiseev recently gathered large concerts.
                  While in France as it is.
                  1. Ka-52
                    Ka-52 19 October 2020 09: 46
                    -1
                    Tattoo and Borya Moiseev

                    well they were perceived as buffoonery characters. Not to be confused with when it becomes a political and administrative force like in Europe.
                    1. Avior
                      Avior 19 October 2020 09: 53
                      +2
                      I remember. They were perceived differently. including seriously.
                      1. Ka-52
                        Ka-52 19 October 2020 10: 03
                        -1
                        we touched on a slippery topic, gays will now pass over us laughing
    3. stalki
      stalki 19 October 2020 07: 32
      +2
      For what purpose did the teacher show cartoons of the holy face of Muslims? This is not about radicalism. I am not a radical. But for this I would definitely hit this teacher
      Does religion teach to beat or kill? Is this justified? God in any religion left such covenants? I wonder what he would have told you about this when we met?
      1. Master
        Master 19 October 2020 07: 38
        -6
        Quote: stalki
        For what purpose did the teacher show cartoons of the holy face of Muslims? This is not about radicalism. I am not a radical. But for this I would definitely hit this teacher
        Does religion teach to beat or kill? Is this justified? God in any religion left such covenants? I wonder what he would have told you about this when we met?

        It's not about religion. It's about respecting yourself. If your relatives are insulted, and you are sitting there saying this is freedom of speech. Then I'm sorry you have something wrong.
        1. Avior
          Avior 19 October 2020 07: 52
          +7
          In France, a caricature of any gods, not just Muslims, is not an insult.
          But the right to freedom of speech has been a special national feature since the time of the French Revolution.
          If such a country is not suitable for you, you need to move to another, to Iran, for example, where it is prohibited.
          Each country has its own rules.
          Somewhere an image of a rooster is an insult, and somewhere a national symbol.
          Or the word kozel - somewhere there is an insult, somewhere - a compliment.
          Or are you a supporter of the idea that you need to kill for a bottle of beer, if the label on it is offensive, in your opinion?
          But in any case, the implementation of the laws is mandatory. If you are offended, go to court, as is customary if you live in a civilized country.
          Or go to another, where it is customary by law to wash off insult with murder, if such laws suit you
        2. stalki
          stalki 19 October 2020 08: 05
          +9
          It's not about religion. It's about respecting yourself. If your relatives are insulted, and you are sitting there saying this is freedom of speech. Then I'm sorry you have something wrong.
          That's right, it's in the head, she's sick. What kind of self-respect can be after a murder, and it doesn't matter for an insult or for a caricature. Well, you can still understand the father who avenges his children. But to understand and even with a hint to justify the monster for this, well, it must be moved with the mind.
        3. paul3390
          paul3390 19 October 2020 08: 18
          11
          Islam should look at itself first. Do Christians, Buddhists, Jews have many rights in Muslim countries? Why do you require them for yourself in Christians? But if we, for example, for the outrage of the greatest Orthodox Cathedral of St. Sophia, start, if not cutting heads, then turning mosques into our churches - will you like it? But for some reason, Islam allows itself such tricks everywhere, while fiercely indignant at the slightest run over it.
          1. Master
            Master 19 October 2020 08: 21
            -3
            Quote: paul3390
            Islam should look at itself first. Do Christians, Buddhists, Jews have many rights in Muslim countries? Why do you require them for yourself in Christians? But if we, for example, for the outrage of the greatest Orthodox Cathedral of St. Sophia, start, if not cutting heads, then turning mosques into our churches - will you like it? But for some reason, Islam allows itself such tricks everywhere, while fiercely indignant at the slightest run over it.

            France. This is a secular state.
            1. paul3390
              paul3390 19 October 2020 08: 21
              +7
              Turkey, actually, too.
      2. Narak-zempo
        Narak-zempo 19 October 2020 08: 34
        +3
        Quote: stalki
        Does religion teach to beat or kill? Is this justified? God in any religion left such covenants? I wonder what he would have told you about this when we met?

        And you, apparently, read the Old Testament poorly.
    4. Galleon
      Galleon 19 October 2020 09: 36
      +2
      I am not a Muslim, an Orthodox, but if I saw that Muslim children are shown caricatures of their prophet Muhammad, I would have walked over such a tolerant face myself.
      1. The eye of the crying
        The eye of the crying 19 October 2020 23: 27
        +1
        Are the Orthodox taking revenge for insulting Muslims? Amazing.
    5. Alex Justice
      Alex Justice 19 October 2020 19: 23
      0
      For what purpose did the teacher show cartoons of the holy face of Muslims? This is not about radicalism. I am not a radical. But for this I would definitely hit this teacher

      You get tired of beating. Millions send cartoons to each other.
  • mark1
    mark1 19 October 2020 06: 49
    -6
    the teacher's head was cut off because he showed cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed in his lessons.

    A victim of public folly
    The French president called the murder of a teacher a terrorist attack and said that Pati "died for freedom and tolerance."

    Well, yes, yes, the right to shit on a neighbor's prayer rug while having a nice conversation with him - for this and my life I don't mind
    1. Avior
      Avior 19 October 2020 07: 14
      +7
      Is it better to kill the owner of the house whose house you came to?
      He is at home at home, he doesn't like it, go to a place convenient for you.
      1. mark1
        mark1 19 October 2020 07: 28
        -4
        I don't approve of murder, but I don't think a fool is right either.
        1. Avior
          Avior 19 October 2020 07: 58
          +2
          When a guest comes to you and tells you how to live in your house, you will change your views.
          1. mark1
            mark1 19 October 2020 08: 43
            0
            Avior, quit your fantasies, in this case, wildness and rudeness multiplied by stupidity and you are trying to take sides.
            1. Avior
              Avior 19 October 2020 08: 58
              -1
              what fantasies are you talking about?
              If you mean that the teacher, knowing full well about the threat from radical fanatics, took reasonable precautions, asking the Muslims to leave, but at the same time did not give in to medieval savages in their views on the right to kill, this is not a fantasy, this is reality. Sometimes they defend their views, including at the cost of their lives.
              And then we'll see how things go.
    2. stalki
      stalki 19 October 2020 07: 53
      +1
      Well, yes, yes, the right to shit on a neighbor's prayer rug while having a nice conversation with him - for this and my life I don't mind
      Does a person have the right to kill? I can understand a predator who justifies this by nature. And then, to kill your own kind even among animals is a bad act. I can understand the hunter, again, a natural necessity. But I can't understand killing for the sake of "faith". In all ages, people were ready to kill for this, is this normal? Humanity and turned to God seeking protection and love, and now is looking for an excuse for itself? Yes, there can be no justification for either Catholics, Muslims or anyone. If they believe, then let them remember that they will burn with a stack of faith in hell. And here, with howling punishment, they will receive the same.
  • Graz
    Graz 19 October 2020 06: 51
    +4
    I wonder where they were going to send the Chechens, I heard somewhere that with obtaining the status of a political refugee in France, these people automatically lose their Russian citizenship
    1. nnm
      nnm 19 October 2020 07: 00
      +1
      According to our constitution, it is impossible to "automatically" lose citizenship. Only by rejecting it yourself.
      Directly in France, there is no ban on dual citizenship.
      1. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 19 October 2020 08: 16
        -1
        Quote: nnm
        According to our constitution, it is impossible to "automatically" lose citizenship. Only by rejecting it yourself.

        And even if there is an agreement between France and Russia on the extradition of such persons. The European Union has such an agreement.
    2. Egoza
      Egoza 19 October 2020 07: 06
      +1
      Quote: Graz
      and where are the Chechens going to send, I

      and what kind of islands in the ocean can go under water in the current weather? Here, right there. And let them pray, maybe Allah will save the righteous, if he considers them so
      1. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 19 October 2020 08: 16
        0
        Quote: Egoza
        and what kind of islands in the ocean can go under water in the current weather? Here, right there.

        There is something in the Antarctic region.
  • andreykolesov123
    andreykolesov123 19 October 2020 07: 04
    0
    Muslims should be sent to Israel. They will show the Zionists Kuzkin's mother
  • Thrifty
    Thrifty 19 October 2020 07: 15
    +1
    Europe does not want to turn on the brains? Mass caricatures on religious themes have long become a mulet for the same Islamists! It is surprising that provoking Muslims to retaliate, the West does not in any way punish the provocateurs who print such religious caricatures, which means, wait for more severed heads, at least!
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 19 October 2020 08: 18
      0
      Quote: Thrifty
      Mass caricatures on religious themes have long become a mulet for the same Islamists!

      You are right, in a country where there are more Muslims than Catholics, this is no longer permissible.
  • KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD 19 October 2020 07: 15
    +7
    Notre Dame Mosque.
    1. ZAV69
      ZAV69 19 October 2020 07: 52
      +3
      Well yes. Getting closer
  • Ros 56
    Ros 56 19 October 2020 07: 50
    +7
    I have such a question, but what the hell did the French run into their country, and not only them?
  • Lesorub
    Lesorub 19 October 2020 08: 29
    +6
    "To expel from the country more than 230 foreigners who are on the lists of suspects in extremism."

    The expulsion and the country of 230 people will not correct the situation from the word at all - France needs to change its migration policy and expel 20 every month, otherwise the French as a nation will pass away in 000 years.))
  • Prisoner
    Prisoner 19 October 2020 08: 31
    -4
    Yes, at least 23000. Until Charlie Hebdo is expelled from France, the massacre will be repeated. winked But if the entire editorial office, with all the artists, yes to Saudi Arabia, for example ... Then yes, then in France this issue will be removed. winked
    1. Avior
      Avior 19 October 2020 09: 01
      +3
      If the French are expelled from France, the country will turn into another "Somali", from where those who are trying to establish their "Somali" rules in France came.
      And they will have to move again.
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 19 October 2020 09: 09
    -3
    The Chechen teenager is the only one who resisted Breivik. Although the guy had only a few stones from the weapon, and Breivik was armed with a firearm. The terrorist retreated, heading towards the victims who did not defend themselves, so the young Chechen saved the lives of several teenagers around him, who were waiting to die like sheep in a paddock.
    The ability to defend their shrines and, in general, the ability to defend themselves, and even more so to protect other people, are inextricably linked. The current goal of Western civilization is to deprive its slaves of the ability to defend themselves entirely. The process is going well, stumbling over only all kinds of immigrants.
  • svoit
    svoit 19 October 2020 09: 29
    -4
    Quote: Reptiloid

    The French authorities did everything to make this happen

    But on the other hand, they almost justified the deceased, although there is extremism on both sides, the authorities did not note this. This incident showed that there is no legal way to protect your feelings. In a normal state, this teacher would receive 5 years for inciting religious hatred and another 5 for insulting the feelings of believers, but France is not one of those
    1. Avior
      Avior 19 October 2020 09: 43
      +3
      In France, this is not considered an insult to religious feelings.
      What is for a Muslim, what is for a Christian.
  • APASUS
    APASUS 19 October 2020 09: 30
    0
    French Interior Minister Gerald Darmanen believes that in order to reduce the radicalization of society, it is necessary "to expel from the country more than 230 foreigners who are on the lists of suspects in extremism."

    And what will that change in France? How many terrorist attacks were carried out by people with a French passport, and in France already, up to half of the population are migrants
  • svoit
    svoit 19 October 2020 09: 41
    -3
    Quote: tihonmarine
    It means that the French have learned the previous lessons poorly

    Well, we do not know exactly how it was, maybe the teacher showed the abuse of freedom of speech using this example, and wanted to say that one should answer for the market. and the student simply did not understand him.
  • vavilon
    vavilon 19 October 2020 10: 05
    -3
    France, or rather, its system eradicated Christianity and its place was taken by emigrants, mainly Muslims, who refuse to integrate into Western culture
    And if the Bolsheviks destroyed religion physically, then the so-called developed West destroyed and continues to destroy it spiritually, starting from kindergarten
    As for the teacher, I would not be surprised that this system would make him almost a martyr, although, as for me, he made an irreparable professional mistake, since by this very act he humiliated the feelings of believers.
  • Old partisan
    Old partisan 19 October 2020 10: 31
    +2
    A little more and from the Parisian kaganate they will expel all the recalcitrant and unfaithful whites (native French), or they will be punished by the sword of Muhammad.
  • svoit
    svoit 19 October 2020 11: 09
    -4
    Quote: Avior
    In France, this is not considered an insult to religious feelings.

    For gaps in the legislation you have to pay with your life, it turns out that there is no legal way and you have to go to lynching
    1. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 19 October 2020 12: 00
      0
      This is not a gap in legislation, but the very essence of Western civilization, in which the right to shit in a person's soul is considered one of the most important. Due to the fact that there is no soul. There is only a stomach and reproductive organs. All this for a period of life should give a person the maximum of pleasant sensations, for this a person was born into the world. So all sorts of religious feelings there by their very existence infringe on the rights of the Western individual!
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. Alex Justice
      Alex Justice 19 October 2020 19: 32
      -1
      Why do the French draw cartoons of the Prophet Mohamed ???

      Who is Mohamed?
      1. The comment was deleted.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 19 October 2020 13: 54
    0
    Quote: nnm
    great pasta monster .... if it doesn't harm others.

    having a macaroni monster could hurt Disney new projects
  • yfast
    yfast 19 October 2020 14: 02
    -1
    Quote: Avior
    Is it better to kill the owner of the house whose house you came to?
    He is at home at home, he doesn't like it, go to a place convenient for you.

    If the place is good, you can send the owner to a convenient place. Don't be naive.
  • Ela myaushkina
    Ela myaushkina 19 October 2020 15: 25
    -1
    There is no beast worse than man. Moreover, from any side, regardless of race, ethnicity, nationality, gender, religion and others.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • Strykalo
    Strykalo 19 October 2020 18: 21
    +2
    It feels like animals are tighter than people themselves
  • Vsevolod136
    Vsevolod136 19 October 2020 22: 29
    +1
    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/hrono61/14012115/1658564/1658564_original.jpg