Military Review

Which cartridge is more effective. 7,62x39 versus 5,56x45

119

Magazines equipped with 5,56x45 mm cartridges


Even if you are not into firearms weapons, then most likely you can still list a few common calibers. And if we narrow the range to long-barreled weapons, then for sure - two. The most widespread in the world are two cartridges for automatic weapons: 5,56x45 mm and 7,62x39 mm. The former is the standard NATO assault rifle cartridge, while the latter is inextricably linked to the famous AK-47 and its many clones and is even more widespread.

The armies of many countries around the world, as well as the police forces, rely on these two cartridges for their excellent performance, time-tested. The ammunition has won its place in the sun thanks to its good firing range, accuracy, and lethality. Moreover, each of these two cartridges has its own characteristics. In some ways one is better, in other ways the other. The debate about which particular patron is more successful continues today, especially often heated discussions can be observed on the Internet. At the same time, one should not forget that it is very difficult to find the truth in such a dispute. In a real battle, much depends not so much on the cartridge itself, but on the shooter, his level of training and possession of the weapon, as well as the weapon itself.

At the same time, the armies do not abandon both calibers, since the systems adopted for service are focused on solving different combat missions. If machine guns / assault rifles today are almost always produced in caliber 5,56 (NATO) or 5,45 (Soviet / Russian systems), then sniper weapons and machine guns are still presented in caliber 7,62x51 (NATO) or 7,62x54 ( Russia). But now we will talk first of all about intermediate cartridges and their advantages and disadvantages.

When did the most common intermediate cartridges appear?


The most common intermediate cartridges in the world are 5,56x45 mm and 7,62x39 mm. The old man here is the Soviet intermediate cartridge 7,62x39 mm, model 1943. This ammunition was developed during the Second World War, but was not used in combat conditions. The creation in the USSR of a 7,62-mm intermediate cartridge and its adoption into service opened up new perspectives in the design of various types of automatic weapons. The famous Kalashnikov assault rifle, AK-1949, which was adopted in 47, was created specifically for this cartridge. Together with the AK, the 7,62x39 cartridge spread widely throughout the world in the postwar years. So much so that in the 1960s, the possibility of adopting it as an additional machine gun cartridge in NATO countries was even seriously discussed.

Which cartridge is more effective. 7,62x39 versus 5,56x45

Soviet cartridges: 7,62x54 mm (rifle), 7,62x39 mm (intermediate) and 7,62x25 mm (pistol)

However, it never came to that. Largely due to the appearance of an intermediate low-pulse cartridge 5,56x45 mm. This cartridge was developed in the USA in 1959 and went into production in 1961. The cartridge was created on the basis of the existing .223 Remington hunting ammunition. As with the Kalashnikov assault rifle, the proliferation of ammunition was facilitated by the creation of effective small arms. It was under this cartridge that Eugene Stoner developed almost all of his small arms models, including the famous M16 assault rifle. In the 1970s, the cartridge began to be widely distributed in NATO countries and by the mid-1980s it became the standard for all NATO countries.

The development of intermediate cartridges in the USSR and the USA was preceded by the same conclusions. Existing rifle cartridges were overly powerful for modern automatic weapons. At the same time, the standard NATO cartridge 7,62x51 mm was recognized as too heavy, which directly influenced the ammunition carried by the soldier. In the changed conditions of warfare, this was no longer acceptable. In addition, intermediate cartridges ensured a reduction in the mass of the weapon itself, reduced recoil when firing, which ensured a large effective range of fire in bursts.

Obviously, the 7,62mm cartridge weighed more than the 5,56mm. At first glance, the difference is not that big: 16 grams versus 12 grams. However, in an ammunition load of 100 rounds, this already gave 400 grams of difference. And if we consider the standard gunner's ammunition from 8 magazines, the difference becomes even more noticeable, since the weight of the ammunition we carry grew by a kilogram. For long marches, this is already very important. That is why, by 1974, an intermediate low-impulse cartridge of 5,45x39 mm caliber was also created in the USSR, which is distinguished by an even lower weight - 10 grams.

What are the pros and cons of cartridges 7,62x39 and 5,56x45


Both intermediate cartridges are widely used in armies around the world to this day. That said, it is very difficult to determine which one is better for the average shooter (largely due to the bias of such assessments: in some cases it will be exclusively about the shooter's preferences). To avoid this, usually try to evaluate ammunition in three main categories: power, recoil and accuracy. It is easier to compare with these categories, since all three parameters can be easily assessed both theoretically and in practice.


Cartridges: 7,62x39 mm (left) and 5,56x45 mm (right)

The 5,56x45 mm small-impulse intermediate cartridge created later has a number of undeniable advantages. Its bullet is almost two times lighter than the bullet of the cartridge 7,62x39 mm. Therefore, even despite the increased flight speed, the recoil momentum was reduced. This had a positive effect on the accuracy of firing from automatic weapons. The machine gun shook less corny when firing in bursts. For the shooter, it became more comfortable to fire, the dispersion decreased, and, therefore, the probability of hitting the target also increased.

Among other things, due to the higher speed of the bullet, the flatness of the trajectory improved. For a shooter who uses 5,56 mm rounds, it is easier to aim, since there are fewer adjustments for wind or altitude. This is especially important for long-range shooting. The average speed of the bullet of the cartridge 7,62x39 mm is 720 m / s, for the bullet of the cartridge 5,56x45 mm it is already 1006 m / s. At a distance of 100 meters, there is still no difference in reducing the trajectory of a bullet for two cartridges, but already at a distance of 250 meters, the 7,62-mm bullet decreases by 40 cm. The flight trajectory of a bullet of a 5,56 mm cartridge is flatter and provides a longer effective direct shot. At a distance of up to 250 meters, it practically does not decrease.

Despite all of the above, the most common machine gun cartridge on the planet is still the Soviet 7,62x39 mm, which was sold around the world thanks to the AK-47 machine gun and its numerous copies, both licensed and not so much. This ammunition also has its advantages. The first and most obvious is the weight of the bullet. Ammunition of this caliber is more preferable if you are firing at a target in body armor. A heavy bullet retains energy much better at long distances, having a better striking and stopping effect.

The advantages of 7,62x39 mm cartridges are also a lower probability of a ricochet and a much more stable overcoming of obstacles. The bullet confidently overcomes thickets, leaves, branches, while a 5,56-mm bullet can seriously change the trajectory, meeting even a minor obstacle. What can we say, boards and bricks for 7,62 mm ammunition are often also quite surmountable obstacles. At the same time, if it hits the bone, such a bullet provides a more severe wound. On the other hand, low-impulse intermediate-caliber cartridges provide more severe wounds, falling into soft tissues.


The most common weapon on the planet: AK-47 with cartridges 7,62x39 mm

The obvious disadvantages of the 7,62x39 mm cartridge include higher recoil when firing. The high recoil makes it difficult for the shooter to be able to accurately second and third shots, depending on the weapon he is using, as well as the very ability to fire efficiently and accurately in bursts. In turn, due to the flatter trajectory, low-impulse intermediate cartridges are considered easier for massive armies with a conscription system, when a large number of new soldiers must be constantly trained in shooting. This is not the last reason why the 5,45 mm cartridge is still the most popular in Russia, although the military is discussing options for returning to the 7,62 mm caliber or creating new ammunition.

If we sum up the results when comparing according to three main criteria, then everything is quite simple. The intermediate cartridge 7,62x39 mm wins in power, but loses to the cartridge 5,56x45 mm in accuracy and recoil. For the average shooter, when firing at long distances, the intermediate low-impulse cartridge 5,56x45 mm, as well as its Russian counterpart 5,45x39 mm, seem to be more preferable.
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  1. Observer2014
    Observer2014 19 October 2020 18: 06
    -5
    Which cartridge is more effective. 7,62x39 versus 5,56x45
    A good article for reasoning in America, for example. What is it for us in Russia to argue about this, which does not concern us in any way. Well, except for some shooting galleries.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 19 October 2020 18: 18
      32
      And I still don't understand why the author is comparing 5.56 and 7.62, and not 5.45? Well, purely metrologically?
      1. svp67
        svp67 19 October 2020 18: 26
        21
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        And I still don't understand why the author is comparing 5.56 and 7.62, and not 5.45?

        By the criterion of prevalence, that is, the number of issued and still used
        The intermediate cartridge 7,62x39 mm wins in power, but loses to the cartridge 5,56x45 mm in accuracy and recoil.
        The Union did not collapse, with a huge probability, we would now have created samples of weapons for a 6,5-mm caliber. Research has been carried out and this caliber has been found to be the preferred
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 19 October 2020 18: 31
          17
          Quote: svp67
          weapons under the caliber of 6,5 mm. Research has been carried out and this caliber has been found to be the preferred

          How wise and far-sighted Fedorov was ...
          1. daveduff
            daveduff 19 October 2020 19: 16
            +3
            The Arisaka 6.5x50 Japanese ammunition, which Fedorov wanted to use for automatic firing, was clearly not suitable for such. Arisaka's cartridge is essentially a rifle cartridge, analogous to our 7.62x54R or NATO's 7.62x51. They can only shoot in bursts somewhere there ... let the boh not get into yours. Unless the machine gun is not a machine gun with a bipod resting on the ground (surface).
            1. ZAV69
              ZAV69 19 October 2020 22: 18
              12
              Actually Fedorov developed his own cartridge for 6.5. But ... it had to be produced in marketable quantities, so he had to tinker with Arisakovsky.
            2. mat-vey
              mat-vey 20 October 2020 14: 49
              +4
              Quote: daveduff
              The Arisaka 6.5x50 Japanese ammunition, which Fedorov wanted to use for automatic firing, was clearly not suitable for such. Arisaka's cartridge is essentially a rifle cartridge, analogous to our 7.62x54R or NATO's 7.62x51. They can only shoot in bursts somewhere there ... let the boh not get into yours. Unless the machine gun is not a machine gun with a bipod resting on the ground (surface).

              Fedorov developed his own rimless cartridge for a self-loading rifle of his own design ...
              If you take a little interest in the question, you can easily find out that cartridges for "Arisaka" were produced during the war in Russia and Fedorov was doing this ... The cartridges were loaded with Russian gunpowder, as a result of which the cartridge turned out to be "weaker" than similar Japanese and English cartridges .. After a trip to the front, Fedorov expressed the idea that, due to the massive use of machine guns, firing in a salvo over long distances and at group targets has lost its relevance for the infantryman, but there was a need for a light automatic weapon with an effective firing range of about 400 meters ... the barrel of his self-loading rifle and using a less powerful cartridge, he received his own submachine gun. The French at about the same time came to similar conclusions and also began their experiments with assault rifles and the first intermediate cartridges (though not only them) ...
          2. Black Colonel
            Black Colonel 26 November 2020 20: 20
            0
            The Serbs have developed a machine gun for 6,5 mm.
        2. daveduff
          daveduff 19 October 2020 19: 08
          +3
          It is unlikely. The military and gunsmiths have always had this 6.5 in mind as an intermediate cartridge, but nothing good has ever worked out in tests. It was inferior in performance to both 7.62 and 5.45.
        3. Droid
          Droid 21 October 2020 06: 45
          +1
          The Union did not collapse, with a huge probability, we would now have created samples of weapons for a 6,5-mm caliber.

          Wouldn't be created.
          Research has been carried out and this caliber has been found to be the preferred

          This caliber was drained 2 times. The first time when creating 7,62x39 for technological reasons, and the second time when creating 5,45, because 5,45 is better.
      2. Observer2014
        Observer2014 19 October 2020 18: 29
        -5
        Chelovek wanted to shake the old and "new" to compare. Already a long time ago everything was compared. And they understood what and how.
        1. Grandfather
          Grandfather 19 October 2020 18: 33
          -6
          Which cartridge is more effective. 7,62x39 versus 5,56x45
          7,62x39 ... hao, I said everything. yes
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 19 October 2020 18: 35
            +1
            Mikhail Timofeevich was of the same opinion ...
            1. Observer2014
              Observer2014 19 October 2020 19: 00
              0
              Nobody compared anything to anything. For full parity, and every opinion has a bunch of anti-opinions right there. hi
              Is it a draw? Everyone agrees?
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 20 October 2020 14: 32
                0
                Quote: Observer2014
                Nobody compared anything to anything.

                And Kalashnikov did not compare - he was against it, and that's all, but he fulfilled the order to "re-barrel" - it is necessary, then it is necessary ...
        2. psiho117
          psiho117 20 October 2020 00: 42
          +5
          Quote: Observer2014
          Man wanted

          Well, except that "wanted" am
          The article came out quite near-weapon, at the level of a tabloid newspaper:
          - here you have the nonexistent AK-47 assault rifle, and the replication of the myth that the "five" ricochets from anything hitting, and the statement that the "seven" is superior in armor penetration ...
          Not a cake at all, in short.
        3. oprovergatel
          oprovergatel 28 October 2020 15: 53
          0
          Exactly.

          The first comment here was supposed to be: "Let there be a shit! laughing laughing laughing
      3. ssergey1978
        ssergey1978 19 October 2020 19: 21
        +2
        5.45 is not widely used. Mainly in the CIS
      4. Firelake
        Firelake 20 October 2020 07: 33
        0
        A very strange approach. You can also compare 9x19 with 7,62x39. I think it will be fine too
    2. ssergey1978
      ssergey1978 19 October 2020 19: 20
      +5
      Why not? When buying a Saiga, I thought for a long time in which caliber to take 7.62x39 or 5.56x45. I did not consider it at 5.45. Defeated 7.62x39
      1. bairat
        bairat 19 October 2020 20: 46
        +1
        Likewise. But without habit I got bruises on my shoulder, the recoil is strong. A friend has a Saiga chambered for 7,62x25, a fairy tale, a child can shoot.
        By the way, are we producing 5,56? If not, then the price will be a horse.
        1. psiho117
          psiho117 20 October 2020 00: 44
          +4
          Quote: bairat
          5,56 do we produce?

          Sure. Including for export, to the same Americans (until recently).
        2. ssergey1978
          ssergey1978 20 October 2020 04: 54
          0
          from 7.62x39 recoil, especially in winter clothes as from the air, what bruises? 5.56х45 produced in Russia 25 years old. Low price
        3. gross kaput
          gross kaput 21 October 2020 21: 38
          0
          Quote: bairat
          A friend's Saiga chambered for 7,62x25,

          Chavoy ?! laughing Do they know about such a miracle saiga in Izhevsk? laughing
          1. BARKHAN
            BARKHAN 26 October 2020 10: 35
            0
            Quote: gross kaput
            Quote: bairat
            A friend's Saiga chambered for 7,62x25,

            Chavoy ?! laughing Do they know about such a miracle saiga in Izhevsk? laughing

            I only know about the PPSh-O from Vyatskaya Polyana in such a cartridge, but there the machine gun itself does not weigh like a child ...
            1. BARKHAN
              BARKHAN 26 October 2020 10: 37
              0
              Quote: Barkhan
              Quote: gross kaput
              Quote: bairat
              A friend's Saiga chambered for 7,62x25,

              Chavoy ?! laughing Do they know about such a miracle saiga in Izhevsk? laughing

              I only know about the PPSh-O from Vyatskaya Polyana in such a cartridge, but there the machine gun itself does not weigh like a child ...

              Saiga-9 is there but there is a 9x19 round
      2. BARKAS
        BARKAS 19 October 2020 22: 44
        +2
        Better SCS than SAIGA and VEPR is also better.
    3. paul3390
      paul3390 19 October 2020 20: 12
      +2
      Why not? For example, among other things, I have a SCS, my friend ChiZ under .223 .. So some of them also concern.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. The Siberian barber
      The Siberian barber 19 October 2020 23: 37
      +3
      A shot from the air that got into the buttock is more effective than 7,62 that flew past)))
      Probably, here is a question of conditions / tasks of application
      Not a shooter, never, but liked to shoot, on the shooting range
      1. Andrey sh
        Andrey sh 3 November 2020 17: 18
        0
        More effective. Even a 7,62 flying past the temple is more effective ...
    6. Gagarin77
      Gagarin77 25 October 2020 13: 25
      0
      Well, actually, when choosing a saiga such a question 6 years ago, I wondered. And later version 5.45 appeared. Now a choice of 4 calibers. The question is just normal, but the article is bad.
    7. BARKHAN
      BARKHAN 26 October 2020 10: 25
      +1
      Quote: Observer2014
      Which cartridge is more effective. 7,62x39 versus 5,56x45
      A good article for reasoning in America, for example. What is it for us in Russia to argue about this, which does not concern us in any way. Well, except for some shooting galleries.

      An article by an illiterate person who most likely did not hold a weapon in his hands and does not have theoretical and practical fire training.
      In the photo, not AK-47, but AKM. If you are already inserting a photo into an article, then at least name it correctly. Most likely, knowledge from computer shooters and tales.
      The effective firing range is higher for a rifle cartridge than for an intermediate cartridge.
      And a literate person would say that a machine gun, when firing, leads away from the aiming point, and not just shakes))))) in parkinson ...
      This article is not for VO.
  2. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 19 October 2020 18: 31
    14
    Wait ... I anticipate a constructive discussion around the name "AK-47". smile
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 19 October 2020 18: 33
      +3
      Quote: Alexey RA
      Wait ... I anticipate a constructive discussion around the name "AK-47". smile

      And about copying "Kurtz", what do you see (as Yoda spoke to me)
      1. Grandfather
        Grandfather 19 October 2020 18: 38
        -3
        Quote: mat-vey
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Wait ... I anticipate a constructive discussion around the name "AK-47". smile

        And about copying "Kurtz", what do you see (as Yoda spoke to me)

        not,.. lol like a nickname ... but not only ...
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 20 October 2020 14: 29
          +1
          Quote: Dead Day
          Quote: mat-vey
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Wait ... I anticipate a constructive discussion around the name "AK-47". smile

          And about copying "Kurtz", what do you see (as Yoda spoke to me)

          not,.. lol like a nickname ... but not only ...

          Yoda speaks on "Galactic Basic" by inverting the word order.
  3. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 19 October 2020 18: 49
    14
    The most common weapon on the planet: AK-47 with cartridges 7,62x39 mm

    This is AKM - a muzzle compensator, as it were, hints.
    What was called in the first edition of the NSD "AK-47" looks like this:
    1. garri-lin
      garri-lin 19 October 2020 19: 17
      +3
      And add that they were released with a gulkin's nose of all the modifications.
    2. Recoil
      Recoil 19 October 2020 21: 47
      -3
      THE AUTHOR OF THE ARTICLE - LOCH
    3. gross kaput
      gross kaput 21 October 2020 21: 47
      +3
      Actually, no, in the photo of AK 55-59, in the west they are called "AK type3". The first serial AK-47s produced in the 48th for military trials (as well as serial AK-51s up to 47 g) had a stamped box. In total, about 1500 units were produced under the AK-XNUMX index.

      order for the production of a series for military tests - we look closely at the name

      And this is the resolution of the Council of Ministers on the adoption into service - it was in it that the clue when the number "47" disappeared
  4. Bormanxnumx
    Bormanxnumx 19 October 2020 19: 06
    +1
    ... Largely due to the appearance of an intermediate low-pulse cartridge 5,56x45 mm. This cartridge was developed in the USA in 1959 and went into production in 1961. The cartridge was created on the basis of the existing .223 Remington hunting ammunition.

    Army .223 Rem. grew out of .222 Rem. by lengthening the liner and increasing the amount of powder. And already in the 70s, it was transformed into a 5,56 × 45 mm NATO by equipping with a heavier bullet.
    1. psiho117
      psiho117 20 October 2020 01: 05
      +3
      Quote: BORMAN82
      in the 70s it was transformed into 5,56 × 45 mm NATO

      It was not just transformed, 5.56 NATO is the development of the Belgians, and the .223 Rem is American.
      They are different and poorly interchangeable.
      The NATO 5.56 cartridge has a 0,125 inch longer neck. This allows for more propellant loading, giving it a higher 5.56 NATO cartridge pressure, which is roughly 58000 psi versus the .223 Remington at roughly 55000 psi.

      When firing the 5.56 NATO cartridge from a rifle chambered for the .223 Rem cartridge, due to the higher pressure, delays often occur, as well as the possibility of weapon breakage or injury to the shooter.
      The opposite is firing with the .223 Rem cartridge, in the 5.56 NATO rifle. Due to the difference in throat length, the .223 Rem cartridge may not perform optimally in 5.56 NATO firearms, causing delays.
      Also, problems start to arise when this cartridge is fired from a 5.56 NATO rifle with a 14,5 inch barrel (or shorter). The reason for this is the insufficient pressure created by the 223 Rem cartridge, which leads to the incorrect operation of the automatic cycle.
      NATO rifles with cartridges longer than 14,5 inches (36,8 cm) should function properly when firing .223 Rem ammunition.
      1. Bormanxnumx
        Bormanxnumx 20 October 2020 08: 53
        +2
        Quote: psiho117
        The NATO 5.56 cartridge has a 0,125 inch longer neck

        There is no difference in the outer geometry of the .223 Rem and 5.56 sleeves - open the drawings and make sure. The difference in the size of the chamber - under the army 5.56 it is more "free".
        1. psiho117
          psiho117 22 October 2020 18: 44
          +2
          Quote: BORMAN82
          There is no difference in the outer geometry of the sleeves

          Sorry I was wrong. recourse Incorrectly translated a line with a description from an English-language site. There really, they talked about the geometry of the chamber, not the cartridge case.
  5. yehat2
    yehat2 19 October 2020 19: 09
    +6
    each cartridge is good for its niche.
    the question is not which is better, but which is better suited to specific conditions.
    In Vietnam 7.62x39 was better, in the desert 5.45 NATO is more convenient, in the city both are bad
    In the mountains, too, not everything is simple - 7.62 is heavier, but there it is very useful to have a ballistic trajectory.
    But for a beginner who does not understand well how and where to shoot, the 5.45 round is stupidly easier.
    1. paul3390
      paul3390 19 October 2020 20: 20
      +5
      Actually, it is not in vain that mattress mats, based on the results of Iraq and Afghanistan, for FN SCAR specialists, even under the rifle .308Win, were ordered .. Like the Ottomans HK417. For low-impulse cartridges have too little effective range. In the mountains or in the desert, barmaley with some ancient Lee-Enfield could easily press the compartment. For there was nothing to get him in response.
      1. yehat2
        yehat2 19 October 2020 21: 47
        0
        That is why in each branch that we have that the United States has at least one barrel, which allows you to reach further than usual. In the USA, in general, they are now trying to bring the effective fire distance of the squad to 400-800m
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 19 October 2020 22: 03
          +8
          At 800 you still need to be able to shoot something .. I would not take it outright like that, despite my decent practice .. And to teach this to all the fighters - something is extremely doubtful for me ..
          1. yehat2
            yehat2 19 October 2020 22: 16
            +1
            there are 2 Marksman in the state
          2. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 19 October 2020 22: 41
            +4
            700 m is already a sniper distance. Normal infantrymen do not fire at this range. Pointless scattering of cartridges.
          3. yehat2
            yehat2 20 October 2020 08: 10
            0
            the whole essence of American military affairs is to organize unpunished shelling
            so they try to increase the distance so that they can shoot, but the enemy cannot.
        2. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 19 October 2020 22: 39
          +7
          With optics. Without optics at 400 m it is already difficult to see, and at 700 the front sight is already larger than the target.
          1. cat Rusich
            cat Rusich 20 October 2020 00: 34
            +3
            Quote: voyaka uh
            700 m is already a sniper distance. Normal infantrymen do not fire at this range. Pointless scattering of cartridges.

            Use an automatic grenade launcher ...
            ARGB Baryshev
            ARGB Baryshev
            ARGB Baryshev - 30mm VOG-17, 30, allows you to hit close to the "target". You can "remember" AGS-30, but it is more dimensional. ARGB Baryshev is given as an "example", it has drawbacks ... the choice is up to the "user".
  6. yasher
    yasher 19 October 2020 19: 11
    +3
    What is the article about?
    Why is this opus here?
    Do not understand.
    A serious resource.
    Or is the verbiage novichkoff welcomed in military affairs?
  7. Virus-free crown
    Virus-free crown 19 October 2020 19: 29
    +1
    The advantages of 7,62x39 mm cartridges are also a lower probability of ricochet and a much more stable overcoming of obstacles. The bullet confidently overcomes thickets, leaves, branches, while a 5,56-mm bullet can seriously change the trajectory, encountering even a minor obstacle.


    "Gold words!" (from) good

    I fired both AK-47 and AK-74 ... I'd rather carry on myself a couple of extra kilograms of ammunition, but I'll be sure that when shooting through the thickets, from AK-47, my bullets won't ricochet back to me ... and the thickets ... after the line from the AK-47 they will not be ... but with the AK-74 - not a fact, not a fact ... recourse

    Judging from my own experience, do not kick hard !!! hi
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 19 October 2020 20: 32
      +4
      I shot and from AK-47
      What year?
      1. Virus-free crown
        Virus-free crown 19 October 2020 20: 36
        0
        Quote: Undecim
        I shot and from AK-47
        What year?

        1985 somewhere, from AK-74 to 1988
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 19 October 2020 20: 54
          +4
          And where did you manage to find the AK-1985 in 47?
          1. Virus-free crown
            Virus-free crown 19 October 2020 20: 58
            -5
            IN DOSAAF !!! good For half a year I shot 2 horns 2 times a week in different conditions, this is how we were taught in childhood at the school of winners in shooting hi I dismantled ak-47 with my eyes closed and assembled at a speed only and exclusively at 5+ !!! good
            Quote: Undecim
            And where did you manage to find the AK-1985 in 47?
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 19 October 2020 21: 15
              +9
              The AK-47 was manufactured 1500 in 1948 for military trials. Neither DOSAAF nor schools got these machines.
              1. Virus-free crown
                Virus-free crown 19 October 2020 21: 25
                +3
                Quote: Undecim
                The AK-47 was manufactured 1500 in 1948 for military trials. Neither DOSAAF nor schools got these machines.

                Sorry - akm of course !!! drinks
                It's just that our military instructor at school just called them ak-47, he was so accustomed to it, so he "drove" it into my head that I still call it that myself))) and how many years have passed ... recourse
              2. ssergey1978
                ssergey1978 20 October 2020 04: 57
                0
                and before 1959, what machines were they producing?
            2. Narak-zempo
              Narak-zempo 19 October 2020 22: 00
              +5
              Quote: Corona without virus
              IN DOSAAF !!!

              - Stirlitz, where did you learn to shoot so accurately?
              - In DOSAAF, - answered Stirlitz and thought: "Didn't I blurt out too much?"
              1. Virus-free crown
                Virus-free crown 19 October 2020 22: 05
                0
                Quote: Narak-zempo
                Quote: Corona without virus
                IN DOSAAF !!!

                - Stirlitz, where did you learn to shoot so accurately?
                - In DOSAAF, - answered Stirlitz and thought: "Didn't I blurt out too much?"

                laughing

                I got my third youth grade first at TOZ-8 ... then there was an unsuccessful attempt to get a second youth grade at TOZ-12 ... well, and "the last nail in the coffin lid" for getting the second youth grade was just AKM- 47 crying in general, I am a loser, I cannot rise above the third youth category in shooting ... crying
                1. Gado
                  Gado 20 October 2020 23: 25
                  +1
                  You are not fooled by the comment of Undecim, all over the world "Kalashnikov" -A AK-47
                  called, simply and understandable to everyone. AKM or AK-74 - it doesn't matter. Even in English, it is enough to say "AyKey" and it is already clear to everyone about what kind of machine we are talking about. Well, and "ARPG", of course. wink
        2. mister-red
          mister-red 19 October 2020 20: 57
          0
          We only had AKMs in training, where they fired from them. The troops only have AK-74. It's just that I saw AK only on the NVP. Served 1982-84
    2. Gato
      Gato 19 October 2020 21: 08
      +1
      I personally witnessed the enchanting shooting from a ksenia on the sloping windshield of the car from 40 meters away - a burst of 5 rounds went into a ricochet.
      1. psiho117
        psiho117 20 October 2020 02: 11
        +3
        Quote: Gato
        I personally witnessed the enchanting shooting from a ksenia on the sloping windshield of the car from 40 meters away - a burst of 5 rounds went into a ricochet.

        Lobovuha is one of the most insidious targets for shooting - very there is a high probability of a ricochet. The Americans are experts in teaching their fighters techniques that allow them to shoot through the windshield, up to raising their weapons over their heads, and shooting at an angle of 90%.
        You will probably be surprised, but glass in modern cars is a very durable thing. There are cases when, after the explosion of a grenade in the cabin, the glass did not even break, it swelled - that's all. wassat
    3. Gato
      Gato 19 October 2020 22: 07
      +3
      I'd rather carry on myself a couple of extra pounds of ammunition

      So it is so, if you sit on the defensive next to the ammunition supply point, and if you drag the ammo of ammunition so 300 and far away, then the difference is felt.
      1. Virus-free crown
        Virus-free crown 19 October 2020 22: 12
        -2
        Quote: Gato
        I'd rather carry on myself a couple of extra pounds of ammunition

        So it is so, if you sit on the defensive next to the ammunition supply point, and if you drag the ammo of ammunition so 300 and far away, then the difference is felt.

        Yes, I agree, if you shoot in an open field at those who attack you in full growth, then the AKM-74 is better ... only, damn it, if the conditions are completely different and the probability of a ricochet from their own bullets is higher than vOrigs will fall into you - then I am for AKM-47 !!! good

        Once again - judging from my own experience, I do not pretend to be the ultimate truth !!! hi
        1. Gato
          Gato 19 October 2020 22: 26
          +2
          I judge from my own experience, I do not pretend to be the ultimate truth !!!

          hi Likewise. I agree, it all depends on the specific situation. My personal opinion: 5.45 is quite acceptable for a personal, and 7.62 is almost ideal for a RP (when it comes to line infantry units). However, recently there has been a tendency towards specialization - incl. and by caliber.
      2. Andrey sh
        Andrey sh 3 November 2020 17: 39
        0
        And if you shoot not half a stroke at a time, you will not feel much. The 7,62 has a higher stopping power, but it is more difficult for beginners to master.
    4. psiho117
      psiho117 20 October 2020 02: 05
      +6
      Quote: Corona without virus
      shooting through the thickets, from the AK-47, I can't ricochet my bullets back

      Nonsense. Ricochets from thickets, with a bullet flying back - this is such delusional nonsense that I do not have enough anger.
      And the myths about changing the trajectory of 5,45 from any blade of grass have long been debunked by many experiments.
      According to the results - all bullets are subject to deviations from the branches, and "five" and "seven". The difference between them is only 15%, but at the same time 5,45mm has greater armor penetration, so it is even more profitable in the forest than 7,62.
      1. Andrey sh
        Andrey sh 3 November 2020 17: 41
        0
        At close range, that's right. And a little further and ricochets stronger and the penetration is worse and stops worse.
  8. Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 19 October 2020 20: 23
    -2
    the second photo shows some of the best cartridges, I think 7,62 by 25 is greatly underestimated, but the future is 6,7-6,3 by 40-42
    1. ssergey1978
      ssergey1978 20 October 2020 05: 01
      0
      Funny 7.62x25 is the best cartridge, they laugh. Where is he the best? Why isn't it used? Who actually used it?
  9. agoran
    agoran 19 October 2020 20: 33
    +3
    I'll tell you a story.
    The divisional commander of the DR and we were given the task to fill up the bull in the subsidiary farm.
    The chief food officer was rather weak, and the topic was not discussed.
    We took the machine gun in the guardhouse, 5.45, yes.
    Paddock 100x100, fired single.
    Each of the 3 comrades fired a shot. The bull just shook his head.
    I went home, took TOZ-34-12, Polev's bullet under the shoulder blade, put the bull on the first shot.
    When the carcass was butchered, the skull was peeled off, three dents and a hemorrhage, not a single 5,45 bullet pierced the skull.
    Р'РѕС ‚Рё РґСѓРјР ° йте.
    1. New Year day
      New Year day 19 October 2020 21: 00
      +8
      Quote: agoran
      The bull just shook his head.

      I had a chance to try to save one person after a burst of 5,45 bullets fired.
      What to say! The liver as an organ did not exist - minced meat. What struck - several bullets pierced the outer shell of the intestine (serous), but could not completely pierce its wall.
      So they hung like a garland. The shooting was conducted somewhere from 30 meters.
      And you say
      Quote: agoran
      three dents and a hemorrhage, not a single 5,45 bullet pierced the skull.

      There was a man with a head wound by Makarov - also cracked skull and nothing. But the TT-hole in the head was very impressed
      1. agoran
        agoran 19 October 2020 21: 06
        0
        Well, during the service in the GSVG, they brought the "paper" in one of the garrisons, the regiment duty officer shot an assistant from the PM in the head. The teeth were worn out, the assistant was shabby, but alive.
        1. New Year day
          New Year day 19 October 2020 21: 18
          +1
          Quote: agoran
          the assistant was crap, but alive.

          About the same! On the other hand, from Makar they shot after the motorcyclist - on the spot request
          The speed of the deceased was decent
    2. AB
      AB 19 October 2020 21: 16
      0
      He shot Polev's bullet ... Most likely 6U. The weight of a 6U 12 gauge bullet is 33 grams. Incl. history is not an example. You can't shoot such people in the army, and you can't drag them ... It's a pity.
      1. agoran
        agoran 19 October 2020 21: 19
        -1
        Actually 32 gr.
        And why can't I hunt while serving in the army?
        1. AB
          AB 19 October 2020 21: 47
          +1
          Why can not you? Well you can, that's just in the service with standard weapons. Well, after that, you can use a gun. Only with a regular hunting one torment. If only the beast. During his service in Primorye, he hit a pheasant from the AKM only once and received a lump of feathers and a tail, then it hung on the wall as a decoration for a long time. Well, goats are fine. Once a wild boar from two trunks was filled up.
    3. nonsense
      nonsense 19 October 2020 21: 37
      +2
      it's about antique bullets - newer bullets 7N10, 7N22, 7N23, ... would have smashed the bull's skull quite confidently.
      1. agoran
        agoran 19 October 2020 21: 41
        0
        I am lazy to argue and reason, I just told a real story.
        And believe it or not, I am absolutely not interested, all the best and goodbye.
      2. garri-lin
        garri-lin 20 October 2020 01: 41
        0
        Well, 7n6 and 7n10 are not much different. Although strongly depends on the year of release. The cores of the same 7n6, towards the end of production, began to be tempered quite well. In fact, using the hardening technology developed for 7n10 cores.
    4. Glad
      Glad 23 October 2020 22: 31
      +1
      When the carcass was butchered, the skull was peeled off, three dents and a hemorrhage, not a single 5,45 bullet pierced the skull.

      Hmm ... Either the bulls are especially strong today, or the 5,45 submachine guns are very frail ... I don't know what to say. It probably wasn't like that 30 years ago. And the sun is brighter, and the grass is greener, and the bulls with machine guns are different.
      For it happened to me in those shaggy years, after laboratory work in "Voenmeh", to hold in my hands a stainless steel plate 8 mm thick. On this plate from 5 meters 3 shots were fired with 7N6 cartridges. One bullet - through penetration, the other two, though not pierced, but at the limit ... Paradox ...
  10. Taoist
    Taoist 19 October 2020 21: 13
    +1
    Well, in general, the photo is AKM and not AK47 ...
  11. nonsense
    nonsense 19 October 2020 21: 33
    -4
    IMHO is better than the Soviet 7.62x39 (or Russian 5.45x39). Because it quite reliably hits the infantry in the NIB at 200-300 meters. At the same time, it remains quite comfortable for the shooter. Here it should be noted separately for which weapon this cartridge (s) was developed. What is AK / AKM / Ak-74 / ...? -- this is PDW soldier in a war zone. And to use it as a real weapon (for those who fight) it's easy stupidity, which has come into vogue in the last 30 years. Well, the AK was not created for that ... And the range of 200-300 meters (with which you can get with a decent probability - even from the MK even from the M-16 / M-4) for such weapons (PDW) are enough. There is no need for a soldier to have something more powerful / more accurate / long-range ... If you pay attention to the composition of the Soviet (and the current) MSO (motorized rifle squad), then all his soldiers are essentially porters this very real weapon - machine guns, grenade launchers. Well, or the crew of the armored vehicles on which this MSO moves and which is the main weapon of this MSO. So porters should be used correctly - to carry real weapons and ammunition, and not stuff their bags / pockets with additional ammunition for their PDW.
    PS: in this regard, the fashion for grenade launchers is stupidity from the same opera. PGs only increase the weight of personal weapons and ammunition carried by the soldier without actually increasing the effectiveness of fire damage.
    1. -Dmitry-
      -Dmitry- 27 October 2020 19: 19
      -2
      PDW is not an AK / AKM / AK-74 at all. Google the term PDW - this is a self-defense weapon for a PM that is not directly involved in combat. Ksenia can be called a weapon of self-defense with a stretch, but not a regular AK-74.
      1. nonsense
        nonsense 27 October 2020 20: 07
        0
        I don't even need to google, just look at the footage from the wild places of Africa, Asia and America where the population uses this very AK precisely as a PDW! (and not some fancy Belgian devices) They have solved this issue for themselves long ago! The Soviet General Staff also resolved this issue, having armed its AK soldiers-carriers (even those who participate in hostilities). :) I simply could not clearly formulate my decision - I painted the purely organizational structure of motorized rifle units, without explaining the meaning ...
        1. -Dmitry-
          -Dmitry- 28 October 2020 10: 05
          -2
          Well, the fact that some cadres use regular small arms of the MSO / MSV as a weapon of self-defense does not mean that it is.
          1. nonsense
            nonsense 28 October 2020 10: 10
            0
            :) the fact that some military people misunderstand the purpose of their weapons does not change its essence ...
  12. Recoil
    Recoil 19 October 2020 21: 45
    0
    Author
    A SHAME
    In the photo - AKM
  13. Undecim
    Undecim 19 October 2020 21: 45
    +8
    At a distance of 100 meters, there is still no difference in reducing the trajectory of a bullet for two cartridges, but already at a distance of 250 meters, the 7,62-mm bullet drops by 40 cm.
    Does the author have any idea of ​​ballistic tables? Have you seen them in your life?

    to write such a miserable article on such a question - it is necessary to try.
  14. Constanty
    Constanty 19 October 2020 23: 16
    0
    If we sum up the results when comparing according to three main criteria, then everything is quite simple. The intermediate cartridge 7,62x39 mm wins in power, but loses to the cartridge 5,56x45 mm in accuracy and recoil. For the average shooter, when firing at long distances, the intermediate low-impulse cartridge 5,56x45 mm, as well as its Russian counterpart 5,45x39 mm, seem to be more preferable.


    The article compares 7,62x39 and 5,56x45 by definition, and then suddenly (as I understand it to reduce the defect 7,62x39) 5,45x39 appears.
    Although a little strange - it smells of manipulation.

    However, it is worth considering the cost factor and the industry's capabilities - hence the remaining caliber and barrel 7,62 - if not for this factor, Russia already 30 years earlier than the 7,62x39 wz.43 represented by Fedorov developed a cartridge better than both title ones - 6,5, XNUMXmm and I'm not talking about replacing Ariasak, but about the original Russian cartridge!
  15. psiho117
    psiho117 20 October 2020 02: 16
    0
    Quote: nespich
    in this regard, the fashion for grenade launchers is a stupidity from the same opera. PGs only increase the weight of personal weapons and ammunition carried by the soldier without actually increasing the effectiveness of fire damage.

    Oh well. Tell this when a VOG arrives in the trench from 300m.
    1. nonsense
      nonsense 20 October 2020 11: 57
      -1
      you can be sure that from 300 meters away you will never fly straight into the trench. At least shoot all the ammunition ...
      1. psiho117
        psiho117 22 October 2020 20: 01
        +2
        You are not in the subject. Even as it flew in - there is a lot of evidence, during the Chechen wars.
        The Czechs then notably overworked the skill of mounted shooting from a grenade launcher.
        And this is not the limit, actually.
  16. Metallurgist
    Metallurgist 20 October 2020 03: 41
    -2
    Great article. About professionals I don't know, but amateurs in America respect the 7.62x39 cartridge very much. In terms of sales of both ammunition and weapons on the civilian market, these two standards are comparable. As usual, one is valued for reliability and the other for accuracy
  17. Yves762
    Yves762 20 October 2020 08: 50
    0
    Judging by the article, the author takes the 5.56x45mm Ball M193 ...
    what
    Why would, after all, 5,56 × 45 mm SS109 (NATO) tea there is "the most common", no ???
  18. Alexfly
    Alexfly 20 October 2020 10: 34
    -1
    Correct article! Ammunition is created on the basis of civilian, hunting cartridges! It is a pity that our hunting departments do not have any rights to do this and make do with military developments ..
  19. Terrible ensign
    Terrible ensign 20 October 2020 12: 44
    +1
    Some kind of mess. Comparison on the basis of "so the author wanted" ...
  20. bunta
    bunta 20 October 2020 15: 47
    +3
    Comparing ZhU with PM is a favorite pastime of sofa intellectuals. "Average speed" ... I'm fshock.
  21. tolancop
    tolancop 20 October 2020 15: 49
    +2
    I read it. In addition to attempts at some kind of analysis, I saw nothing. The material is extremely empty.
    "... The small-impulse intermediate cartridge 5,56x45 mm, created later, has a number of indisputable advantages. Its bullet is almost two times lighter than the bullet of the cartridge 7,62x39 mm. Therefore, even despite the increased flight speed, the recoil momentum was reduced ..."
    Okay, accepted: low bullet weight is an advantage ...
    And a little lower ...
    ".. Despite all of the above, the most common automatic cartridge on the planet is still the Soviet 7,62x39 mm, ..... This ammunition has its advantages. The first and most obvious is the weight of the bullet."
    And for cartridge 7,62, a large bullet weight is a positive property. Well, how can all this be combined?
    But nothing !!! Delirium, by definition, does not need to be combined, because - delirium. Amen.
    1. psiho117
      psiho117 22 October 2020 19: 56
      +1
      Nonsense, then he is nonsense, that's just, in modern conditions of using weapons under 7,62x39 - it is the increased mass of the bullet (compared to 5,45) that is the factor that has not yet sent this cartridge to the dustbin of history. Mountains, there, or dense greenery - this is his niche.
  22. John22
    John22 20 October 2020 17: 22
    +1
    The article is about nothing. Compare logically equal calibers.
  23. alexgall2013
    alexgall2013 20 October 2020 20: 32
    0
    considering that in the last photo it is not AK-47 at all, but AKM ... knowledge of the subject raises very serious doubts.
  24. izGOI
    izGOI 20 October 2020 23: 38
    +1
    All is good, but not a word about the capacity of the store. And additional cartridges with the same weight are not superfluous to anyone.
  25. Comrade Kim
    Comrade Kim 21 October 2020 01: 26
    0
    Quote: bairat
    By the way, are we producing 5,56? If not, then the price will be a horse.

    Yes.
    Not more expensive than money.
  26. Ded_Mazay
    Ded_Mazay 21 October 2020 10: 38
    0
    "This song is good, start from the beginning" ... The theme is button accordion. Everything about the "war of calibers" has already been said a hundred times. And all the same - once in half a year whoever will break through to return to her again.
    It's not clear just why ...
  27. Sergei Novozhilov
    Sergei Novozhilov 21 October 2020 14: 17
    +1
    The AK is designed for 15 rounds. During the Second World War, 000 rounds of ammunition were consumed per killed enemy soldier, and in Vietnam already 1 rounds. Every second soldier does not care about the caliber, since he simply shoots without aiming, and not towards the enemy. Every fourth soldier shoots towards the enemy without aiming, and only one out of four shoots at the enemy while aiming. The main infantry losses from mortars and heavy grenade launchers, and now drones have appeared.
  28. Biodred
    Biodred 21 October 2020 23: 37
    0
    The first intermediate cartridge in the USA appeared in the early 40s - 7.62x33mm for self-loading M1 Carbine.
  29. Sedoy
    Sedoy 22 October 2020 12: 43
    +1
    complete mess ...
    "AK-47" - there is no such machine ...
    "AK-47, was created specifically for this cartridge (7,62x39)" - the first prototype (1947) was generally created for 7,62x41, but the prototype AK-48 (1948) was already chambered for 7,62x39
    "standard shooter ammunition from 8 magazines" - when the 5,56x45 cartridge was created, the SA soldier had 3 magazines of 30 rounds each and the pouch was for 3 magazines ...
    the author writes about something that is not in the subject at all ...
  30. wow
    wow 23 October 2020 08: 34
    -1
    AKM chambered for 7,62 is a WEAPON! AK-74 under 5.45 - bullshit! Shot'c very good. a lot of .
  31. Alexfly
    Alexfly 23 October 2020 18: 25
    0
    It is strange to compare cartridges of different calibers ... Why not 5,45x39 and 7,62x39?
  32. -Dmitry-
    -Dmitry- 27 October 2020 19: 12
    -1
    The advantages of 7,62x39 mm cartridges are also a lower probability of a ricochet and a much more stable overcoming of obstacles. The bullet confidently overcomes thickets, leaves, branches, while a 5,56-mm bullet can seriously change the trajectory, meeting even a minor obstacle. What can we say, boards and bricks for 7,62 mm ammunition are often also quite surmountable obstacles. At the same time, if it hits the bone, such a bullet provides a more severe wound. On the other hand, low-impulse intermediate-caliber cartridges provide more severe wounds, falling into soft tissues.


    In fact, nothing more than a myth. In terms of armor penetration, 7N6 even surpasses 7.62 PS, due to a faster bullet. As for the fact that 5.56 and 5.45 bullets deflect even with branches, Kalashnikov made a good video.

  33. Vyacheslav34
    Vyacheslav34 20 November 2020 15: 14
    0
    Stupid basling of the one who invented this 5.56x45 cartridge. It is necessary to reward with landing on a stake. Dances cursed this cartridge in Vietnam because the M-16 rifle became practically useless when operating in the jungle. Our guys in Afghanistan faced almost the same problem.
  34. the same doctor
    the same doctor 21 November 2020 22: 47
    0
    He also fired both machine guns. When facing off against an unprotected enemy, a small caliber is better. As a personal weapon, like officers' pistols, small caliber is better.
    .
    What did Syria show? The soldiers, armed with Kalash, could not oppose anything to barmaley with grains. Conclusion? Kalash today is nothing more than a personal weapon. They cannot oppose anything to a cart with a large one, or a UAV.
    .
    The rifle squad should be armed with a grenade launcher or ATGM, a machine gun, a sniper. What the second or third numbers are armed with and the observer - no difference. At least with pistols. Perhaps a 5,45 bull-up will come in handy here.
    .
    And the last thing. For twenty years I have been carrying around one idea on the shooter and there is no one to give it to the amers. But a Kalash could argue with her with a large man of barmaley.