Military Review

Tanks in the Karabakh conflict

158
Tanks in the Karabakh conflict

The fierce confrontation in Karabakh between the armies of Azerbaijan and Armenia leads to serious losses in armored vehicles if both sides fail to achieve their goals. Azerbaijan made a bet on the "blitzkrieg" and, with a colossal advantage in manpower and resources, was unable to quickly break through the Armenian defense and return the previously occupied territories. Armenia put on a tight defense and preventing the enemy from entering the defended territory.


The set goals were not achieved: the Azerbaijani "blitzkrieg" did not take place, the Armenian defense was not broken. At the same time, Azerbaijan has a relative success: it squeezes the Armenian side, it has to retreat. The Azerbaijani army is advancing deep into the territory, has already occupied several border villages and continues to press the Armenian army.

Parties declare destruction up to 150 tanks adversary, but how much these data correspond to reality is difficult to say. For such a limited theater of operations, the losses in tanks are really serious; if the set goals are not achieved, the cost-benefit ratio does not stand up to criticism.

On the basis of these data, the foreign expert community raises questions about the advisability of having tanks in the army as a striking force in connection with their light vulnerability from enemy fire weapons. Others believe that the reason is not tanks, but bad tactics of their use.

It is still too early to draw conclusions, the conflict is in full swing, but some negative aspects in the use of tanks are already visible. The reasons for the emerging failures of the parties may lie in different planes: the opponents lack the necessary forces and means, the peculiarities of the theater of operations, insufficient training of personnel and ill-considered tactics of using tanks in cooperation with other branches of the military. Let's see what and how the opponents are fighting and why the losses in armored vehicles are high.

Forces and means of opponents


The presence of forces among the opponents is largely determined by their economic resources and mobilization base; in Azerbaijan they are much more powerful. Its per capita GDP is almost five times higher than the Armenian one and the population is three times larger, in this regard, it can put a much larger number of its citizens under arms. Therefore, the Azerbaijani army has a number of 131 thousand people, and the Armenian - only 45 thousand.

From open sources, one can roughly judge what means the opponents have at their disposal. In almost all weapons systems, Azerbaijan is several times superior to Armenia. The Azerbaijani army has 760 tanks, and the Armenian army has only 320, in both armies, naturally, there are Soviet-Russian tanks of different years of production and different configurations.

In the Azerbaijani army there are about 470 T-72 tanks, 200 T-90S and about a hundred T-55 tanks, in the Armenian - about 270 T-72 tanks, 40 T-55 tanks and allegedly several T-80s. In fact, T-72s are opposing each other on both sides.

The types of tanks show that all of them, despite the significant number, except for the T-90S, have long been outdated. Of course, six T-90S battalions are strength, but it all depends on how they will be used.

Azerbaijan reached the greatest advantage over Armenia in the number of self-propelled artillery and MLRS. There was a certain logic in this: it was Baku that set the task of breaking into the enemy's defense in depth. The Azerbaijani army is armed with 390 self-propelled guns: 122-mm "Carnation", 152-mm "Akatsia", 152-mm "Msta-S", 152-mm "Dana", 120-mm "Nona-S", 120-mm "Vienna", 203-mm "Pion", anti-tank systems "Chrysanthemum", as well as 285 towed guns: 152-mm D-20, 152-mm "Hyacinth-B", 122-mm D-30, 130-mm M -46, 100-mm MT-12 "Rapier" and up to 400 units of 120-mm and 82-mm mortars.

Azerbaijan has 450 MLRS systems: 122-mm Grad, 122-mm RM-70, 300-mm Smerch, Turkish 107-mm T-107, 122-mm T-122 and 302-mm T-300 Kasirga ", Croatian 128-mm RAK-12 and 301-mm Belarusian" Polonaise ", as well as jet flamethrowers TOS-1A" Solntsepek ".

Armenia only has up to forty self-propelled guns: 122-mm "Carnation" and 152-mm "Akatsia" and up to 200 towed guns: 152-mm D-20, 152-mm "Hyacinth-B", 152-mm D-1, 122 -mm D-30, 130-mm M-46 and 100-mm anti-tank guns MT-12 "Rapier", as well as 80 units of 120-mm mortars. There are only about 70 MLRS systems: mainly 122-mm Grad, as well as several 300-mm Smerchi and Chinese 273-mm WM-80-4.

It can be seen from the above data that Azerbaijan's advantage in tanks is 2,4 times, in self-propelled guns 10 times and in MLRS 6,4 times, and this affected the conduct of hostilities. Azerbaijan was seriously preparing for a war for the liberation of previously occupied territories and unleashed it, so it created a serious advantage in tanks and heavy artillery.

The theater, small in area, is saturated with tanks, heavy artillery and multiple launch rocket systems of terrible destructive power, especially with regard to MLRS of 300 mm caliber, capable of striking targets and hitting areas deep in enemy defenses. In addition, Azerbaijan massively used drones, reconnaissance, shock and "kamikaze" made in Turkey and Israel. The most effective was the Turkish strike UAV Bayraktar TB2. The armies of both sides are also saturated with a large variety of ATGMs, which are formidable weapons against the used armored vehicles.

All used tanks, except for the T-90S, are already outdated and do not have a developed system for searching and detecting targets and their destruction, especially at night and in bad weather conditions. In the conditions of mountainous and highly rugged terrain, it is very problematic to find a target from them, and with good reconnaissance of the enemy, the organization of prepared ambushes and the use of high-precision weapons, such a tank becomes an easy prey.

Tactics of using tanks by the parties to the conflict


It should be borne in mind that the Karabakh theater of operations cannot be called an ideal place for using tanks. This is a mountainous and heavily interrupted terrain with limited transport communications, which exclude the possibility of operational maneuver of forces and means and often involves the conduct of hostilities outside the direct line of sight of the enemy. The terrain contributes to the seizure of commanding heights, the organization of ambushes and strong points with artillery and ATGMs in tank-hazardous areas.

All this presupposes a certain specificity of the conduct of hostilities and the high efficiency of using a different class of UAVs for reconnaissance, observation, target designation and adjusting fire or destroying enemy targets, which Azerbaijan successfully uses.

As follows from the messages, the main losses of tanks are from artillery fire, MLRS systems and drones at long distances even before contact with the enemy; there is no reliable information about oncoming tank battles yet. At this stage, the vulnerability of tanks to these types of weapons is visible, allowing them to be hit from above into the most weakly protected parts of the tank, as a result of which they incur significant losses. How effective is the use of anti-tank systems against tanks in this conflict, it is still difficult to say, since there is not enough information on the use of this type of weapon.

According to fragmentary information, photographs and videos from the battlefield, many questions arise about the tactics of using tanks by the Azerbaijani and Armenian sides. Azerbaijan, having a serious advantage in tanks and artillery, did not break through the enemy's defense, but chose the tactics of squeezing it out. Such tactics to a certain extent lead to success, since its military-economic potential is incomparably higher, but serious losses in tanks are difficult to explain. Opponents use tanks mainly in small groups to support the infantry and suffer losses at the same time, there is already a video of the damaged and burning T-90S. There is no large-scale use of tanks on any sector of the front, and the terrain prevents this.

Both sides suffer from imperfection in the tactics of using tanks, and the poor training of personnel is also felt. For example, in the first days of the conflict, Azerbaijani tanks suffered losses in minefields, which indicates ineffective reconnaissance and sapper preparation of the terrain in the offensive zone. Also, from the photographs and videos from the battlefield, it is clearly visible that armored vehicles are practically not masked by the parties and becomes easy prey for UAVs and MLRSs.

One of the videos shows how an Armenian tank unit is very ineptly trying to organize an offensive when interacting with the infantry. In another video, instead of hiding in the folds of the terrain, an Armenian tank reaches the crest of a hill, opens fire and immediately becomes a target and is destroyed by the enemy ATGM.

There is no reliable statistics on losses and analysis of what type of weapon the tanks were hit by, but, according to information from the battlefield, the main losses were from UAVs, artillery and MLRS. At the same time, tanks are destroyed mainly on the march, in places of deployment or concentration, and quite rarely in combat clashes.

The use of tanks in this conflict also clearly showed how much they need protection from a new and effective means of air attack - the UAV. Tanks are now practically defenseless against this type of weapon, it is expensive and hardly advisable to implement protection against UAVs on them, this is the task of special collective air defense systems. Most modern armies are aware of the existence of such threats and to neutralize them develop appropriate means of collective defense against air attacks.

It is absolutely pointless to draw conclusions about the futility of the future of tanks based on the results of this stage of the Karabakh conflict, since this is a local conflict in a specific theater of operations with serious restrictions on the use of tanks (excluding the possibility of using their characteristic combat properties), as well as with not always thought out tactics of their use and poor preparation personnel.
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  1. Alexey Sommer
    Alexey Sommer 18 October 2020 05: 19 New
    20
    Azerbaijan is waging a war in the 20s of the 21st century, and Armenia is trying to fight with the methods of the end of the 20th century.
    We see the result every day in commercials.
    It is impossible to compare real losses in open information, there is simply no objective data, but there is a persistent feeling that Armenians have many times more losses.
    1. Asad
      Asad 18 October 2020 05: 27 New
      33
      It seems to me that the blitzkrieg was not in Azerbaijan's plans. The quick seizure of the territory means the civilian population in the rear, as during the Second World War. Azerbaijan does not need Armenians in the rear from the word at all. Aliyev is not interested in the trial in The Hague!
      1. BDRM 667
        BDRM 667 18 October 2020 05: 50 New
        +3
        Tanks, and anti-tank ... The confrontation, however yes .

        Video with a wounded soldier of the Karabakh army, awarded for the destruction of 10 (wow, that's a score for an ATGM, considering the duration of the battles) enemy tanks from ATGM.

        1. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya 18 October 2020 06: 09 New
          27
          Yes Yes. We believe, we believe. In the same way, we believe that Simo Häyuha shot 90 Red Army soldiers in 700 days of war. Not a single Soviet or German sniper over the years of participation in hostilities, not even close to him. Fyodor Okhlopkov, for example, fought from December 1941 to June 1944, and killed 450 Fritzes.
          1. the Saint
            the Saint 18 October 2020 17: 36 New
            -38 qualifying.
            And we believe in Gastello's feat, don't we? There is a documented version that this feat was stolen from Maslov and Preisen, and Gastello, who jumped out with a parachute and surrendered, and then disappeared without a trace, was simply appointed a hero.
            1. Alexander Trebuntsev
              Alexander Trebuntsev 19 October 2020 11: 32 New
              13
              You're lying, sir. Who stole the feat? Explain where the next gossip has come from. Yes, judging by the ramming, it was not Gastello who committed the ram, but he did not surrender, did not jump with a parachute, his plane fell on the edge of the forest. The entire crew was killed.
              The story is similar to a lot of similar stories - the example of 28 Panfilovites. The military correspondents distorted and tinted from lack of information. But this is not a reason to repeat liberal nonsense.
              1. the Saint
                the Saint 19 October 2020 15: 21 New
                -10 qualifying.
                “List of irrecoverable losses of commanding officers and rank-and-file personnel of the 42nd Air Division from 22.06. on 28.06. 41 g. " signed by the head of the combat unit, foreman Bokiya. There the crew of Gastello is listed by name. The line “Notes” reads: “One person from this crew jumped with a parachute, who is unknown”.
                Residents of the village of Matski, near which a burning Soviet bomber fell on June 26, 41st, will confirm the note in the archival document, adding details: the plane fell on the edge of a swamp (about two kilometers from the Molodechno-Radoshkovichi highway). A pilot jumped off the wing of the plane with a parachute. When he landed, the Germans drove up to him in a car and captured him.
                Only the pilot could jump from the wing of the DB-3. So it was Gastello? But what about the crew? Saving his life, threw him to death? It is now impossible to answer all these questions.
                His further fate is unknown. Most likely, he was shot, as the Nazis usually did in the first weeks of the war with captured Soviet pilots.
                At the site of the bomber's death, local residents found a half-rotted gymnast, and in it - an unsent letter addressed to Skorobogataya (apparently, the wife of Lieutenant Skorobogatov), ​​as well as a medallion with the initials "AAK" (Sergeant Aleksey Aleksandrovich Kalinin). And, finally, one more confirmation that this is Gastello's plane: a fragment with a tag from the engine with serial number 87844 - this was exactly the number on his plane. As for the pilot himself - no trace.
              2. zenion
                zenion 18 November 2020 18: 07 New
                +1
                Sometimes the truth seems to be a lie. There is such a town, Yampol, on the heights of which there were pillboxes. The Germans broke through Mogilev-Podolsky and rushed to the Dniester, where at that time there was the only bridge. But they could not break through. The soldiers who were supposed to fight in these pillboxes were ordered to be withdrawn to the side of the station, and weapons and other things were ordered to be left. Upon arrival, they will be given another weapon, and this will be for those who take their places. But their places were taken by young people who lived in that town and Faina Moiseevna took over the team. As it turned out later, the soldiers were abandoned near the town of Tomashpol, where they were all destroyed by German motorcyclists. And the guys did not allow the Germans to cross the bridge for three days. One of the pillboxes had a cannon and only three shells. The guy Dombrowski knew how to shoot a cannon and he directed it to the bridge and aimed several times fired and destroyed one bridge opening. After that, having collected everything that they could carry, the guys went to the neighboring forest in Podlesovka. This is how the girl became the commander of the Komsomol detachment. Of course, not a word about it. How is it that the administration of the region, the leadership of the Red Army, turned out to be traitors.
          2. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 18 October 2020 20: 51 New
            13
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            Yes Yes. We believe, we believe.

            Well, that's how to count. Sniper Semyon Nomokomov during WWII reliably destroyed 368 enemy soldiers and officers, including one confirmed major general.

            However, Nomokomov himself wrote that during the repulse of attacks and offensive, the number of destroyed enemies cannot be calculated. There is no time or opportunity to check and confirm. Moreover, Semyon Nomokomov himself believes that he never missed having used up thousands of cartridges, and who of them survived and who did not - that's what God is the judge ...
      2. Anatole Klim
        Anatole Klim 18 October 2020 07: 58 New
        72
        Quote: ASAD
        Azerbaijan does not need Armenians in the rear from the word at all.

        I think that the Armenians themselves will not remain in the territories occupied by the Azerbaijani army. Fear will make them refugees; before the war, an estimated 147 thousand Armenians lived in Nagorno-Karabakh and as many as 6 people. Azerbaijanis, in case of victory of Azerbaijanis, the figures will be reversed. For Armenia, such a number of refugees will be a huge problem, and the Armenian refugees will run further, of course, some of the refugees will be accepted by Europe, part of America, but the main flow will be to Russia, and our Guarantor will also say that we are obliged to provide any assistance, including material, brotherly Armenian people, but it would be fine if they went to explore Siberia and the Far East, so they will remain in the south of Russia, where there are already plenty of them, while they will live there, receive help and hate Russia for the fact that she did not fit in the war and did not fight for them. Sorry to be off-topic.
        1. Alexey Sommer
          Alexey Sommer 18 October 2020 08: 02 New
          -18 qualifying.
          Quote: Anatol Klim
          at the same time, they will live there, receive help and hate Russia for the fact that she did not get involved in the war and did not fight for them.

          Ok dear. hi
          What do we do with your information?
          1. Anatole Klim
            Anatole Klim 18 October 2020 08: 05 New
            27
            Quote: Alexey Sommer
            What do we do with your information?

            This is not information, this is my opinion, sorry again, not on the topic of the article hi
            1. Alexey Sommer
              Alexey Sommer 18 October 2020 08: 06 New
              -18 qualifying.
              Okay, that's your opinion.
              What suggestions do you have on what to do about it?
              1. Anatole Klim
                Anatole Klim 18 October 2020 08: 20 New
                15
                Quote: Alexey Sommer
                What suggestions do you have on what to do about it?

                Well, you have questions in the morning for a simple military pensioner, I was even at a loss, it is impossible not to let it in, it is also impossible to let it in and restrict the regions of residence, it is also impossible not to give Russian citizenship. I cannot answer your question yet. maybe colleagues on the site will help, but what do you think yourself?
                1. Alexey Sommer
                  Alexey Sommer 18 October 2020 08: 35 New
                  -4
                  Quote: Anatol Klim
                  what do you think?

                  To prohibit (like ISIS) the term "brotherly people" is the first, since all people are brothers.
                  Second, to make of all visitors: Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Uzbeks, etc., just Russians.
                  I see no other way. hi
                  1. Sergej1972
                    Sergej1972 18 October 2020 09: 57 New
                    13
                    Why not Tatars or Chukchi? Citizens of the Russian Federation are not required to be Russian.
                    1. Alexey Sommer
                      Alexey Sommer 18 October 2020 10: 08 New
                      10
                      Literally I do not remember the quote of one Russian pilot, who was Estonian by nationality, from the First World War, something like this: "I love my cradle Estonia and I am proud of my motherland Russia."
                      This is the point. hi
                      1. Sergej1972
                        Sergej1972 18 October 2020 10: 22 New
                        +5
                        So many in pre-revolutionary Russia, who were proud of it, did not consider themselves Russian. And so, the requirement from all those who have adopted citizenship to become Russian is not constitutional. Although, if the majority of new citizens strive for this, I will only be glad. On the other hand, to be honest, as a Great Russian I would not really like to see some of my comrades as part of my people. Although I have nothing against them being Russians, citizens of the Russian Federation.)
                      2. Alexey Sommer
                        Alexey Sommer 18 October 2020 10: 25 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Sergej1972
                        On the other hand, to be honest, as a Great Russian I would not really like to see some of my comrades as part of my people.

                        A very interesting topic of conversation.
                        You can start with the Vikings. For example, from Rurik. drinks
                      3. Jager
                        Jager 18 October 2020 11: 54 New
                        14
                        By the way, the rulers of Russia were often well ... not quite Russian. And sometimes not at all Russian. That did not stop to leave their mark on history.
                      4. Chetnik
                        Chetnik 20 October 2020 20: 53 New
                        +2
                        Why aren't Vargi Rusichi? Rurik is just one of them. Polabian Rus, Forerunner of Great Rus.
                2. Grits
                  Grits 18 October 2020 14: 52 New
                  +9
                  Quote: Sergej1972
                  Why not Tatars or Chukchi

                  I agree with this proposal. Only they need to be done by the Chukchi, Yakuts, Nenets, Dolgans, Koryaks, Khanty, Mansi. With the arrangement in the "historical" homeland.
                3. the Saint
                  the Saint 18 October 2020 17: 42 New
                  -15 qualifying.
                  The Chukchi are ugly, and the Russians are all beautiful, without exception.
            2. Sergej1972
              Sergej1972 18 October 2020 09: 55 New
              18
              Russia has no obligation to grant Russian citizenship.
              1. the Saint
                the Saint 18 October 2020 17: 44 New
                -5
                They are more satisfied with French, German or American citizenship. Even Estonian, but they will not give, observing the purity of the race.
                1. kieferandreas
                  kieferandreas 18 October 2020 21: 24 New
                  +2
                  oh well, bang, they take any other refugees who don't sew a sleeve to Europe, but they don't want these, what kind of discrimination?
                  1. the Saint
                    the Saint 19 October 2020 18: 25 New
                    -3
                    It is in the Baltic States that they try not to accept them, and if they have to, they create such conditions for migrants that they themselves flee from there to other EU countries.
                    Therefore, the Balts have constant friction with the EU leadership on this topic. They are racists.
            3. APASUS
              APASUS 18 October 2020 17: 15 New
              16
              Quote: Anatole Klim
              Quote: Alexey Sommer
              What suggestions do you have on what to do about it?

              Well, you have questions in the morning for a simple military pensioner, I was even at a loss, it is impossible not to let it in, it is also impossible to let it in and restrict the regions of residence, it is also impossible not to give Russian citizenship. I cannot answer your question yet. maybe colleagues on the site will help, but what do you think yourself?

              In normal countries, they get a residence permit and that's it !! To obtain citizenship, you need to prove it very well, but we have everything in reverse, Russians have been seeking citizenship for years (I know specific examples at my work), and some Mahmud from the market (who speaks Russian only with an interpreter) can boast of a passport through half a year!
              1. the Saint
                the Saint 18 October 2020 17: 46 New
                -15 qualifying.
                Mahmud, although he does not speak Russian, but understands better than native speakers, so he has a passport, but they do not.
                1. APASUS
                  APASUS 18 October 2020 17: 52 New
                  0
                  Quote: el Santo
                  Mahmud, although he does not speak Russian, but understands better than native speakers, so he has a passport, but they do not.

                  No matter how you think, try to get a Finnish passport! And our point is not at all a clever
                  1. the Saint
                    the Saint 19 October 2020 15: 38 New
                    -9
                    I understood! Russians are by nature very honest and cannot bribe the same Russians and honest from the FMS.
                    And the thoroughly corrupt and unprincipled Mahmud easily gives bribes, which it is not at all shameful to take to Russian FMS officers from such a Mahmud, unlike Russian petitioners, whose conscience does not allow them to take a bribe with scrupulousness.
              2. Ajevgenij
                Ajevgenij 18 October 2020 19: 49 New
                +2
                Yes exactly. Himself 8 years tried to get Russian citizenship. Fuck there ... I spent a huge amount of nerves and resources. Russian bureaucrats have completely discouraged the desire to continue doing this.
                1. the Saint
                  the Saint 19 October 2020 15: 42 New
                  -10 qualifying.
                  These bureaucrats come from ethnic Ukrainians or Georgians, I guess. Or (it's scary to say) American saboteurs, "moles" from the State Department, deliberately preventing us from building a prosperous Russia.
                  1. blackice
                    blackice 26 October 2020 08: 35 New
                    -1
                    Santa, here you are out of essence.
                    What do you want to say with your commas? The fact that only Russians are building zaponi for Russians?
                    In part, you MAY be right. Just how Russian are they?
                    I live in Russia, according to the USSR passport I was a Ukrainian, although I was there only once at the age of 7. I am Russian?
                    Are the FMS employees all Russian too?
                    There are so many bloods mixed in Russians that there are almost no Russians by blood. Is it only Old Believers living separately from the world.
                    So it is in other countries. When you start digging into the genealogy of a particular nation, you find out that there are tribes mixed there, both relatives and newcomers, a wagon. So, at best, 1 percent of the world's population can definitely call themselves a purebred representative of a particular nationality.
            4. Wertgan
              Wertgan 19 October 2020 20: 02 New
              0
              What to do? Campaign for the restoration of alliance, for a united country
          2. Vladimir61
            Vladimir61 18 October 2020 13: 20 New
            10
            Quote: Alexey Sommer
            What suggestions do you have on what to do about it?

            To begin with, you need to decide - "What is a brotherly people"!
            Our politicians need to clearly apply two related criteria that will determine Russia's position.
            The first is historical, cultural, religious and linguistic criteria.
            Second, the position of the ruling political forces of the "fraternal" people.
            If the anti-Russian attitude has changed as a result of an anti-constitutional coup, we must speak about it directly and continue to consider the citizens of this country a "brotherly" people.
            If the citizens of the country, as a result of Russia's recognized, democratic elections, have chosen their own political elite, then, this is no longer a "brotherly" people! This should become the position of Russia and our interests, in terms of recognizing the elections as legal, we must determine ourselves, without looking back at the West and the international commissions controlled by it, and so on!
          3. Lara Croft
            Lara Croft 18 October 2020 14: 56 New
            +1
            Quote: Alexey Sommer
            Okay, that's your opinion.
            What suggestions do you have on what to do about it?

            Close borders, for Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Georgians and Turks ...
            1. the Saint
              the Saint 18 October 2020 17: 48 New
              -6
              And take Turkish tomatoes, don't you? And is it better to excommunicate Russia from Turkey now or wait for the new season?
              1. Lara Croft
                Lara Croft 18 October 2020 22: 11 New
                +4
                Quote: el Santo
                And take Turkish tomatoes, don't you?

                Yes, everything seems to be all right with tomatoes in the Russian Federation ... we did not die without Turkish ones ...
                And is it better to excommunicate Russia from Turkey now or wait for the new season?

                After our Su-24 was shot down, people can go there only with a Russian passport ...
                1. psiho117
                  psiho117 19 October 2020 04: 33 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Lara Croft
                  After our Su-24 was shot down, people can go there only with a Russian passport ...

                  Yes, the overwhelming majority do not care about geopolitics ... Look, just opened a connection with Turkey - and immediately crowds of people rushed.
                  People want a good and inexpensive vacation, and the Turks are the closest ones who provide it, that's all.
                2. the Saint
                  the Saint 19 October 2020 15: 30 New
                  +2
                  Do not believe it! He himself recently returned from Kemer, as the hotel and the beach are teeming with tangles, quilted jackets, putinoids, patriots ..
                  To a cautious question - why don't you sing patriotic songs drunk in Crimea, but in Turkey? They told me to go to Crimea myself, and to be ripped off by my new compatriots who are too greedy for money.
                  1. Lara Croft
                    Lara Croft 19 October 2020 20: 21 New
                    +4
                    Quote: el Santo
                    Do not believe it! He himself recently returned from Kemer, as the hotel and the beach are teeming with tangles, quilted jackets, putinoids, patriots ..

                    I willingly believe ...
                    They told me to go to Crimea myself, and to be ripped off by my new compatriots who are too greedy for money.

                    For some reason they didn't rip me off, the service is certainly unobtrusive, but kind people are around, as in my childhood I visited - the RSFSR of the mid-80s ...
          4. max702
            max702 19 October 2020 09: 18 New
            +3
            What to do? It's just not only not to accept refugees, but also to send those living here to their homeland .. The benefits of them are ZERO .. Yes, this requires political will and it must be shown .. It would be absolutely great to make money on both sides in the best traditions of "partners", at the same time weakening these and reducing their influence in Russia .. And the fact that perhaps Ra will cease to exist, then there is nothing wrong with that, they went for a very long time and stubbornly towards this, let them be responsible for their actions ..
    2. Aleksandr21
      Aleksandr21 18 October 2020 09: 00 New
      +5
      Quote: Anatol Klim
      I think that the Armenians themselves will not remain in the territories occupied by the Azerbaijani army ...


      Here you are right, if the territories are under the control of Azerbaijan, then the genocide of Armenians in these territories may simply happen, given the "love" of these two peoples for each other. But for Russia, the main issue is not even Azerbaijan-Armenia, but the presence of Turkey in the region and the strengthening of its position by absorbing states in the Caucasus that have (or had in the past) ties with Turkey (cultural, historical, etc.) and this is a huge a problem that needs to be solved + despite my dislike for Pashinyan and his pro-American policy, the genocide of Armenians as a people cannot be allowed, in a historical context it will be a mistake, now I don't even take those moments that Russia has historically been the defender of small peoples in the Caucasus + that Armenians are Christians, and I take into account the factor of strengthening Turkey by exterminating this people, and then Russia's influence on the processes in the Caucasus will be minimal, since there will simply be no opponents of Turkey, and the countries of the region (Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Georgia, Tajikistan, etc. ...) will focus primarily on Turkey, and this is the finish line for our position in this region. And in general, Russia's policy towards Turkey in recent years, surprises me (to put it mildly), Erdogan is building the Ottoman Empire, including at our expense, and we only express our concerns ... if the GDP is not able to protect our interests, that means you need to make room for someone who can do it, I think so.


      As for the Azerbaijan-Armenia hostilities themselves, then Armenia has no chances to win this war (alone), forces are not too equal (in all spheres: military budgets, economy, human resources, etc.).
      1. Sergej1972
        Sergej1972 18 October 2020 10: 00 New
        0
        I partially agree with you. But the names of peoples in modern Russian are not written with a capital letter.
        1. Aleksandr21
          Aleksandr21 18 October 2020 10: 46 New
          +3
          Sergey, thank you for noticing the mistake, I am aware of the "modern Russian language" since I live in Omsk and it was there that I graduated from school at one time. If you are embarrassed that "Armenians" wrote with a capital letter, then yes, there is a mistake, although I sometimes write "Russians" with a capital letter in my comments, so I ask forgiveness for mistakes, it happens ... what to do.
      2. Jager
        Jager 18 October 2020 11: 56 New
        10
        Any failures in foreign policy are justified by lovers of GDP as a "multi-move".
        1. Grits
          Grits 18 October 2020 14: 57 New
          11
          Quote: Jager
          Any failures in foreign policy are justified by lovers of GDP as a "multi-move".

          The coolest "mnogohodovochka" was in 2014. Then it became clear that we did not even want to protect our Russian people and were giving our Russian lands to the Nazis. And here we are offered to protect Caucasians ...
        2. the Saint
          the Saint 18 October 2020 17: 52 New
          -3
          There are no failures and cannot be, otherwise the termless cadences would not be nullified. Only victories - big and complete or local and underestimated.
      3. kieferandreas
        kieferandreas 18 October 2020 21: 35 New
        -1
        Yes, this war is unprofitable only for Armenia and Russia itself, and all the rest are only for.
        USA, Turkey, Azeybarjan, and influence will do more on this territory and the equipment will be checked, I will gain experience, and if Russia gets in, then new sanctions will be right there and "fraternal" fixtures will freeze and Russian tourists may be taken hostage. Oil and gas will not be allowed to Europe, but those from the United States will buy, in short, some pluses to everyone, except those whom I have already listed. Here is such a mess for you, eat and do not get covered.
      4. Romeo
        Romeo 18 October 2020 22: 26 New
        -1
        Please open the topic of "our" interests. And how do you think they will have to be protected by the one who should be vacated by the "incapable" to protect "our" -your interests
      5. vlad106
        vlad106 19 October 2020 20: 51 New
        +1
        Aleksandr21 (Alexander)
        Yesterday, 09: 00

        "... Russia has historically been the protector of small peoples in the Caucasus + that the Armenians are Christians ..."
        Armenia, by all sorts of provocative actions, including shelling residential cities in Azerbaijan, is stubbornly trying to drag Russia into the war ...
        How many wars have we had with the so-called. "Christians" and crusaders during the existence of Russia ?!
        Swedes, Germans, Prussians, Saxons, Franks, Austro-Hungarians and even the closest brothers Poles ...
        so that Christians are not a sign of loyalty to the Russian state.
        and what kind of "brothers" these Armenians are, you can recall from a series of terrorist attacks in 1977 in Moscow, when the Dashnaks Zatikyan, Stepanyan, Bagdosaryan blew up the metro with people, grocery stores, stating at the trial that it was Russia's revenge ...
        Now the so-called "brothers" fleeing from Armenia are buying up housing in the south of Russia, and unceremoniously displacing the indigenous peoples, shouting insolently: "We are the ancients and we have always lived here, this is our land ..."
    3. d4rkmesa
      d4rkmesa 19 October 2020 12: 04 New
      +1
      It will be somewhat different, the refugees are first evacuated to Armenia, and then Pashinyan's problems will begin in the form of riots and other things. A politician who has lost the war is a political corpse. Against the background of this instability, rather, the citizens of Armenia itself will flee to Russia and other countries.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  2. 89268170588
    89268170588 6 November 2020 16: 17 New
    0
    Why. The Croats knocked out the Serbs with one blow and no one got to The Hague. True, the scales are certainly not compatible.
  • Simargl
    Simargl 18 October 2020 08: 00 New
    +1
    Quote: Alexey Sommer
    Azerbaijan is waging a war in the 20s of the 21st century, and Armenia is trying to fight with the methods of the end of the 20th century.
    Rather, Azerbaijan is waging a war in the 20s, while Armenia is at the end of the XNUMXth. The presence of tanks and UAVs is just an analogy.
    1. Alexey Sommer
      Alexey Sommer 18 October 2020 08: 03 New
      +3
      One way or another, Armenians are lagging behind today.
      This fact is documented.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 18 October 2020 15: 07 New
        +2
        Rather, they retreat.
        1. the Saint
          the Saint 18 October 2020 17: 54 New
          +2
          Rather, they are luring them to Yerevan, as Kutuzov lured the French to Moscow.
  • Hermit21
    Hermit21 18 October 2020 08: 38 New
    -2
    Because Azerbaijanis often post vidos. No more than an illusion
    1. Grits
      Grits 18 October 2020 14: 59 New
      +6
      Quote: Hermit21
      Because Azerbaijanis often post vidos. No more than an illusion

      But this is also an indicator of a higher level.
      1. the Saint
        the Saint 18 October 2020 17: 55 New
        0
        They just have more tomatoes than Armenians have apricots.
        1. Grits
          Grits 20 October 2020 14: 14 New
          0
          Quote: el Santo
          They just have more tomatoes than Armenians have apricots.

          And probably more expensive than the Armenians
  • Sckepsis
    Sckepsis 22 October 2020 07: 42 New
    +1

    We see the result every day in videos

    Yes, and this result is 2,5 captured villages in half a month. And this with multiple superiority in forces, complete air supremacy, seizure of the initiative. Following your words, somehow this 21st century, 20 looks cooler.
  • The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 18 October 2020 05: 46 New
    +3
    It's too early to draw conclusions
    This is a quote from the author, although in the two paragraphs above he made the conclusions: the blitzkrieg did not take place ... a relative success ...
    The exact number of destroyed equipment (in this case, tanks) is not even known. On the other hand, repetitions of the alleged tactics of warfare continue.
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 18 October 2020 05: 51 New
    +5
    Equipment in the hands of poorly trained personnel is scrap metal. The tasks were not completed, the machines were destroyed ... Why?
    Did you want to take it for fear?
    1. psiho117
      psiho117 19 October 2020 04: 44 New
      0
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      Equipment in the hands of poorly trained personnel is scrap metal.

      I, frankly, have never seen him anywhere, this very "well-trained personnel." Wherever you look - Chechnya, Donbass, Syria, Karabakh - everywhere, absolutely mediocre use of armored vehicles, and corresponding losses.
      In general, over the past 20 years, tanks have been used very badly - the only exception is the American invasion of Iraq, there was a full-fledged military operation, and the tanks were used competently and to the spot.
      1. 89268170588
        89268170588 6 November 2020 16: 29 New
        0
        In Iraq, the US tanks were of a new generation, with thermal imagers, plus air supremacy. And the Iraqis had tanks with active infrared sights, which operated up to 800 meters, it's like against the Abrams with their equipment, just go with the headlights on. Abrams beat them from 4 km.
  • Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 18 October 2020 05: 52 New
    12
    Well, there are several reasons. The very first reason is the extremely low professionalism of the army on both sides. For example, we can cite the storming of Grozny in December 1994, when one general boasted that he would capture Grozny in an hour and, in general, would cover Chechens with hats. As a result, dozens of burned tanks and thousands of killed. Whereas in 1999, during the assault on Grozny, they acted much skillfully and prudently, and despite the fact that, compared to 1994, the Chechens had rich combat experience, plus there were thousands of Arab mercenaries, Grozny was captured quickly and with relatively small losses. The second reason is that as this conflict has shown, a modern tank must necessarily have an active protection complex just to protect it from ATGMs and UAV missiles. Without it, the tank is just an easy target in today's electronic environment. That is, as in the late 30s, with the massive appearance of rapid-fire anti-tank equipment, tanks with bulletproof armor were rapidly outdated, just as now tanks without KAZ are rapidly outdated.
    1. Snail N9
      Snail N9 18 October 2020 06: 29 New
      +7
      We can say that now all tanks are outdated, like the machines of the battlefield. And the reason for this in the tanks was the problem of protection from ammunition attacking from above. No modern tank is adequately protected from such attacks. Even modern KAZ does not provide such protection in the event of a massive and consistent attack with paralyzing elements from above ..
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 18 October 2020 06: 38 New
        +9
        Well, there is only one way out - to develop KAZ, as during WWII and afterwards, they developed the resistance of tank armor to shells and cumulative grenades. Projectile armor T-34 and T-54, for example, is ridiculous to compare. In the same way, in ten years, I am sure, completely new KAZ will appear, much more efficient.
      2. Hermit21
        Hermit21 18 October 2020 08: 37 New
        +1
        No modern tank is adequately protected from such attacks. Even modern KAZ do not provide such protection in case of a massive and consistent attack by paramount elements from above.


        ["Afganit" entered the chat]
      3. d4rkmesa
        d4rkmesa 19 October 2020 12: 19 New
        0
        Outdated again - well, this is nothing new, just another round of evolution. KAZs of the next generation are already on the way. Technically, there is nothing difficult in intercepting ammunition attacking from above. The same "Trophy", most likely, is able to intercept any ATGM's, except for supersonic ones.
    2. Hermit21
      Hermit21 18 October 2020 08: 36 New
      +4
      The tank, first of all, must have support from other types of troops. Motorized riflemen destroy the gunners, engineers clear the area, gunners suppress firing points, etc. And when you send tanks to a minefield without cover, shells in them from the times of Tsar Pea with gunpowder that lasted all the time, and in PPO Aliyev's fart or he was completely communed, KAZ will do little
      1. psiho117
        psiho117 19 October 2020 04: 47 New
        0
        Quote: Hermit21
        Motorized riflemen destroy the fighters

        "What, Bagaban?" (old anecdote).
        Motorized riflemen will not do anything to the calculation of the ATGM a few kilometers away. push.
    3. Vadim237
      Vadim237 18 October 2020 15: 10 New
      0
      Azerbaijan has quite a few long-range modifications for service with Spikes - and they hit the roof, no KAZ tanks will save them from them, and given that these TV missiles have the same homing head of the curtain.
    4. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 18 October 2020 23: 08 New
      +5
      "The very first reason is the extremely low professionalism of the army on both sides." ///
      ----
      I cannot agree with you. The Azerbaijani army is fighting very
      professionally, using the latest methods of the 21st century.
      The war will be included in the textbooks as an example of the complete defeat of equipment from the regular army
      using unmanned aerial vehicles.
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 18 October 2020 23: 36 New
        +4
        Quote: voyaka uh
        The Azerbaijani army is fighting very
        professionally, using the latest methods of the 21st century

        Let's not confuse the army with "borrowed" means of strengthening.
        The situation is reminiscent of the summer of 41. And although the historical and geographical conditions are completely different, no one not only denies the presence of a third party in the conflict between the two countries, but also stresses the Turkish president. In other words, Turkey ascribes to itself the decisive success of the use of UAVs by the Azerbaijani side.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 18 October 2020 23: 43 New
          +3
          Turkey has successfully tested strike drones in Idlib. Both tactics and technique.
          And naturally, Azerbaijan, as Turkey's closest ally, learned
          these methods, trained its personnel and massively purchased similar UAVs.
          1. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 19 October 2020 00: 34 New
            +2
            Teaching personnel to use UAVs in mountainous areas is not like playing tanks on a computer. Long-term preparation and provision of communication capabilities are required, including the delivery and training bases of the UAVs themselves.
            Nobody denies Turkey's success. I am tormented by a vague doubt as to who really controlled and controls this process. That is why I mentioned that "third" side, which does not hide it. It is fortunate that the summer joint "exercises" on the territory of Azerbaijan made it possible to officially deliver there everything they saw fit. And this process does not stop.
    5. 89268170588
      89268170588 6 November 2020 16: 40 New
      0
      You probably heard, but did not understand. When Pasha was presented with a Chechen defense plan with a scheme of strong points. Indeed, this plan made it possible to capture Grozny at no extra cost. Then the defense scheme was revised and changed in principle. They began to act on the principle of Japanese defense in the Pacific islands. They abandoned resistance on the outskirts, let the columns into the center, everyone thought it was a victory, and relaxed. They gathered in the center and near the station, where they were shot from the roofs and from the windows of high-rise buildings.
  • Runway
    Runway 18 October 2020 06: 32 New
    +5
    The author is compiling OBS. In the text there is a cliché "blitzkrieg", illiteracy "field engineer preparation" and game in the form of a subsection "tactics of using tanks by the parties to the conflict."
    Not good, however.
  • Dimon71
    Dimon71 18 October 2020 06: 34 New
    -11 qualifying.
    Well, how the Armenian art hammering the Az tanks is fired. And what is most important is the same. At the expense of the blitzkrieg. It was the blitz krieg that should have been made and not squeezed out. Therefore, the most powerful blow was inflicted on the army of Artsakh on the 27th. Well, after it failed, the Az side allegedly says that we didn't need a blitzkrieg.
  • Dimon71
    Dimon71 18 October 2020 06: 36 New
    -7
    Strangely, I wrote one text. I sent it. The words from the text are pulled out. And there are a lot of errors. How so ???
  • Unknown
    Unknown 18 October 2020 06: 37 New
    -7
    all the same, it is necessary to give up on tanks. they then and the WWII were knocked out en masse, and now with the development of anti-tank systems, and even RPGs even more so. in all local conflicts, tanks are immediately destroyed. this was the case in Syria, Yemen, and in the Donbas as well.
    1. sen
      sen 18 October 2020 07: 11 New
      +9
      all the same, we must put an end to the tanks

      Due to the increased threat of attack UAVs and kamikaze drones, the Terminator must be made universal. Along with the 57-mm cannon with shells with remote detonation and anti-tank systems, equip the 9M340 Sosna-R SAM.
      1. Pechkin
        Pechkin 18 October 2020 07: 19 New
        +3
        You have roughly described the Derivation anti-aircraft complex, only it is based on the BMP-3, but this is not a panacea. These vehicles will have only an optical-electronic aiming system.
    2. Runway
      Runway 18 October 2020 08: 11 New
      +7
      Maybe you need to be able to apply the technique? Tank, MLRS, barrel, transportable / wearable PTS themselves are not a panacea, but a goal.
      1. Pechkin
        Pechkin 18 October 2020 08: 23 New
        +3
        Well, if you do not have the means to combat drones, and there are basically only outdated air defense systems, then you will not use any sense as a technique.
        1. Runway
          Runway 18 October 2020 10: 17 New
          +8
          A through trench combined with a shelter (roughly 100 cubes of excavation, 23 cubes of firewood and backfill with tamping).
          Half a day to work. For 1 car / group - 5 positions.
          The notorious Harop - roughly 122mm offs. Other ptura from the drone - just raise the dust. Like other spbe.
          The Armenians had 4 years to think and August - to dig the land. Column protection and position of op and bmto - enough solutions on the surface.
          1. Pechkin
            Pechkin 18 October 2020 10: 37 New
            +4
            I agree that this could reduce losses, but not change the situation. There is a video where the equipment is destroyed on the move, in combat positions. Also, you cannot bury air defense installations and the artillery must still go to firing positions. Drones do not work at previously reconnoitered positions, but in real time.
            1. Runway
              Runway 18 October 2020 11: 53 New
              12
              Technique on the march: no cover - prepare a column route off roads with natural cover / obstacles. There are none - the distance and speed are greater, TDA / smokes, cannot cool the armor - heat the road / terrain.
              Shelter for a barrel with a sector - there would be a desire.
              Air defense - to use anti-aircraft missiles, air defense systems on the front end. Object - noth work from hospitals - change positions (covered by MZA / RAB). Build falsehoods.
              Makes detection more difficult, makes you hang out longer in the target area
              Watch movies blah-bb - time the movie before stopping (height / distance to the target is less than 100 meters). Multiply = attack echelon (dive) about 1 km.
              A bla-rahtelka with a screw not only makes noise, but also heats up. We cannot work with radar, we are working on sound and heat - sector / azimuth / elevation and drop out of the radio station.
              This is from the hip, so to speak.
              1. Pechkin
                Pechkin 18 October 2020 12: 19 New
                0
                For the competent argumentation of my opinion, of course, a plus. But I disagree with many. The drones are heated just not very much (not a jet engine from an aircraft, after all). It is not very efficient to work on them. And you should not underestimate the range with which shock drones can work, none mza they will not get (or conduct reconnaissance fire adjustments). But to fight with kamikaze drones like Harop mza probably somehow it is possible or with light devices.
              2. KKND
                KKND 18 October 2020 13: 01 New
                0
                Quote: WFP
                Technique on the march: no cover - prepare a column route off roads with natural cover / obstacles. There are none - the distance and speed are greater, TDA / smokes, cannot cool the armor - heat the road / terrain.

                Well, you just voiced a new word in military affairs. And the Armenians do not know this alphabet for minors.
                Simple as that. After knocking out the radar, not knowing whether the UAV is circling over you or not, each convoy has to drive with the TDA turned on at a snail's speed (the carriers themselves will not see a fig), burning the diesel fuel that is scarce in the war, even from the UAV it will be clearly visible through the smoke on the road, who went where.
                Quote: WFP
                A through trench combined with a shelter (roughly 100 cubes of excavation, 23 cubes of firewood and backfill with tamping).
                Half a day to work. For 1 car / group - 5 positions.

                Great advice, now take a shovel in your hands and dig more than 10 tons each in 10 people in 12 hours. It will be convenient for the UAV operator to cover them in a crowd. And if they do not cover them in the process, then they will be killed when they are tired.
                What had to be dug in advance, so the Armenians dug, you can't see from the video or what?
                Quote: WFP
                - enough surface solutions.

                The rest of the advice from the same kindergarten, everyone knows them without sofa specialists, only in reality everything can be more complicated.
                1. Runway
                  Runway 18 October 2020 14: 11 New
                  11
                  You should be attentive when reading the texts. lol
                  For you, as a specialist in military affairs, the existence of a TDA based on army trucks will probably not be frank?
                  In the hills and mountains, the air moves characteristically - in the morning to the valleys / lowlands, towards the evening in the return. Oddly enough, roads and column paths are laid in the mountains along "counters" / soles or lowlands / gorges. Why I wrote this, you, as a specialist in military affairs, of course you understand. Or not?
                  According to VIP, there is a rule of "One person", and there are also mechanisms that help to dig the ground.
                  I don’t know what the Armenians were looking for digging the ground, but they surpassed the unhurried Balts by all 16 clicks.
                  1. KKND
                    KKND 18 October 2020 14: 37 New
                    -4
                    Yes, they have already burned everything in Iraq already 2 times. Everyone knows everything is the ABC. Only in reality it complicates the life of aviation a little, and does not level it. At the same time, you often press so much solar cars and tires yourself and make it so difficult for yourself to review that it is not clear whether it was worth doing all this.
                    All these eternal curtains of smoke have already passed from which nothing can be seen even at the end of the 20th. And now the infantry already have teplaki.
                    So it is about all sorts of advice ala to bury yourself underground. There is a lot of work and the result is not very impressive.
                    In war, one of the determining factors is cost / efficiency. I speak clearly?
                    Quote: WFP
                    I don’t know what the Armenians were looking for digging the ground, but they surpassed the unhurried Balts by all 16 clicks.

                    This is the real reason for which your argumentation was conceived - to belittle the Armenians as warriors.
                    How do you explain their victory in the 90s and in 2016? What arguments will you give here?
                    1. Runway
                      Runway 18 October 2020 23: 20 New
                      +5
                      If it does not bother you, tell your personal combat experience of using improvised means to create curtains.
                      I passed the rule "get up - dig" together with my subordinates at altitudes above 2,5 km. Alas, without the help of Isr. wink It helped a lot, because the shooter against the group (12,7-82 mm) somehow did not go.
                      I do not know the Armenians' MDC, but the fact that their "happy people" are dolbaks is a fact.
              3. voyaka uh
                voyaka uh 18 October 2020 23: 16 New
                +1
                "The bladder with a screw not only makes noise, but also heats up" ////
                ----
                You have absolutely no idea what a Bayraktar-class UAV is.
                And does not make noise, and does not get warm. Launches missiles from 5-7 km altitude and 15-20 km distance.
                UAV optics distinguish individual soldiers from such a distance.
                And from below it is not visible, not audible and not cut by the radar.
                Therefore, your advice on organizing defense will not help much.
                You can only bury yourself in tunnels and bunkers and go into a deep defense.
                1. Runway
                  Runway 19 October 2020 01: 01 New
                  +4
                  I wrote - blah-bb (loitering ammunition). Azm is Harop.
                  According to Bayraktar, they slander that it carries an ATGM and a castrated ATGM (planning "bomb") with a launch range of up to 8 km.
                  So your "legs": 5-7 and 15-20 km give a minimum of 16 km roughly. Something is wrong in the "conservatory".
                2. 89268170588
                  89268170588 6 November 2020 17: 04 New
                  0
                  Gardash. You are, of course, an expert in UAVs and their weapons. How can you launch a missile with a range of up to 8 km from 15-20 km. This is nonsense. It is controlled by a laser, the sensor immediately catches it, an aerosol is sprayed and the beam is crushed. Even in a tank when shooting, when measuring the range, it happens that the beam is reflected not from the target but from local objects, you have to repeat the measurement. By the way, the camera is also detected. Will come down against the barmaley. Understand that UAVs are a weapon of the battlefield, in conditions of normal echeloned air defense their effectiveness can drop to zero, especially with the vulnerability of control vehicles, which are easily detected by aviation, satellites, and electronic warfare equipment. Think of the Falklands Conflict, for example. The United States did not fight, and data from satellites until the last Argentine soldier was leaked to Britain. You never know.
            2. Jager
              Jager 18 October 2020 12: 07 New
              +2
              Judging by the video, the UAV technicians were stuffed just because of the lack of camouflage and cover. What is difficult to cover a BMP standing alone in an open space? Difficulty at the level of "hit the target, the size of a garage".
              By the way, people forget that KAZs were not invented to fight drones and other shock cores. And to intercept ATGMs and shells flying in a straight line.
              For example, the TDA of several tanks can create such a smokescreen in a minute that this UAV will not notice the mountain.
    3. Vadim237
      Vadim237 18 October 2020 15: 12 New
      +1
      Then we need to switch to robotic tanks.
    4. the Saint
      the Saint 18 October 2020 17: 57 New
      -2
      yes, there would be more sense from "aircraft carrier killers"
    5. saigon
      saigon 18 October 2020 19: 06 New
      +1
      Tanks are knocked out due to an attack on an unsuppressed defense, if the positions are mixed with the ground qualitatively, then the tanks will go without terrible losses.
      The fact that everyone sees another illustration of how not to fight.
      And the question is not about tanks but about the correctness of their use by the command.
  • Mikhail Zakharov
    Mikhail Zakharov 18 October 2020 07: 22 New
    -8
    tanks are a relic of the past. they disappear into oblivion as knightly armor once went.
    1. Alexey Sommer
      Alexey Sommer 18 October 2020 07: 55 New
      +9
      Quote: Mikhail Zakharov
      tanks are a relic of the past. they disappear into oblivion as knightly armor once went.

      We will not be pessimists.
      Due to the fact that birds appeared, for example, eagles, wolves and cats did not go anywhere.
      And the knightly armor did not go anywhere, they turned into tanks.
      Likewise, the tank will continue to evolve. hi
    2. Simargl
      Simargl 18 October 2020 08: 03 New
      +5
      Quote: Mikhail Zakharov
      tanks are a relic of the past. they disappear into oblivion as knightly armor once went.
      Okay. How to develop the offensive?
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 18 October 2020 08: 27 New
        +2
        Again, a positional dead-end as in WWI. Machine guns, barbed wire and shrapnel made an infantry and cavalry attack without tanks and self-propelled guns ineffective. In the same way, ATGM and UAVs have now made the attack using tanks ineffective. The only way out is to destroy the centers of the enemy state with a nuclear strike and force it to withdraw from the war.
        1. Alexey Sommer
          Alexey Sommer 18 October 2020 09: 57 New
          +3
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          The only way out is to destroy the centers of the enemy state with a nuclear strike and force it to withdraw from the war.

          something like this, at this stage. hi
        2. Simargl
          Simargl 18 October 2020 11: 18 New
          +4
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          The only way out is to destroy the centers of the enemy state with a nuclear strike and force it to withdraw from the war.
          It remains to open nuclear arsenals to a level A or A state.
          No?
          Then the tanks.
          During World War II, tanks suffered losses from not tanks, very large %%. But no one thought to curtail their production and development.
      2. Vadim237
        Vadim237 18 October 2020 15: 14 New
        0
        Robotic assault vehicles.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 18 October 2020 23: 20 New
          +3
          Drones will knock them out too.
          First, you will have to clear the sky from enemy drones using
          their interceptor drones (the next stage of UAV development).
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. Pechkin
      Pechkin 18 October 2020 08: 37 New
      +6
      Tanks must change to meet modern threats. For example, the concept of an armata with an uninhabited tower and an armored capsule gives the crew a chance to survive after being hit from the top into the tower. It is also necessary to develop KOEP so that tankers know what they are working on and can make it difficult to aim at the tank. And develop a KAZ which can work in the upper hemisphere. But this is all Wishlist and the reality of the T-72B3, unfortunately.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 24 October 2020 08: 42 New
        0
        Only gives a chance. After hitting the tower, all birdhouses on the tower will fly away into tartars, and the decorative armor around the gun module will open like a daisy and block the crew's exit from the capsule, and there is no emergency exit for the tank. The result will be a pile of metal with a live crew inside the capsule. The Azerbaijani army made the right bet on self-propelled guns, a much longer-range, more powerful weapon that works great on a UAV tip. Especially on stationary defense. The Wehrmacht, under air strikes at the end of the war, tried to apply the principles of mobile defense, but the global superiority of our and allied aviation did not allow us to do this either.
        1. Pechkin
          Pechkin 24 October 2020 08: 55 New
          0
          Well, I wrote that there’s a chance, but whether it will block the exit from the tank or not, it’s how the automatic fire extinguishing system will work. his crew in modern warfare.
  • Operator
    Operator 18 October 2020 09: 50 New
    +9
    What is the point in mentioning that most of the tanks of Armenia are not included in the T-90 - and if they did, they would stop exploding from the Azerbaijani patrolling ammunition?

    Most of the Armenian tanks are destroyed not on the march or in the accumulation areas (although there too), but directly at the combat positions in the tank trenches, and without distinction, whether the tanks were camouflaged or not.

    Seeing the total destruction of Armenian armored vehicles on the battlefield is absolutely pointless not to do conclusions about the future of tanks without KAZ.
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 18 October 2020 11: 26 New
      0
      Quote: Operator
      and without distinction whether the tanks were camouflaged or not.
      Where is the disguise? A casually draped net?
      1. Operator
        Operator 18 October 2020 11: 40 New
        +7
        In a rocky high-mountain semi-desert, cover a tank with a multispectral "Cape", it will still look like naked in a bath. Plus, the infrared track from the tracks on the ground at the entrance to the tank trench remains for several days.

        And the cherry on the cake - as soon as the tank is fired several times, it can be immediately written off for scrap: the muzzle flame can be seen from the UAV several tens of kilometers away (just at the flight distance of aircraft gliding ammunition). And if the tank will passively sit under the "Cape", then it will cease to be a combat unit.

        Any disguise such as camouflage or electronic warfare in battle cannot be compared with active countermeasures - for armored vehicles this is KAZ (since you cannot attach an air defense system to every MBT, BMP, armored personnel carrier, self-propelled gun, MLRS).

        Until this simple fact reaches the Armenians, they will play the role of targets in the shooting range. If the GABTU of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation cannot help them in any way, then they themselves must look for simplified solutions in this direction.
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 18 October 2020 12: 06 New
          +3
          Quote: Operator
          In a rocky high-mountain semi-desert, cover a tank with a multispectral "Cape", it will still look like naked in a bath.
          Eh ... simple.
          Do you know about false targets, changing positions (this is an absolute minimum)?

          Quote: Operator
          And the cherry on the cake - as soon as the tank fires several times, it can be immediately written off for scrap: the muzzle flame can be seen from the UAV for several tens of kilometers
          Sure! If you shoot the entire ammo from one position, the enemy may suspect something.

          Quote: Operator
          And if the tank will passively sit under the "Cape", then it will cease to be a combat unit.
          It looks like they haven't figured it out yet.

          Quote: Operator
          Until this simple fact reaches the Armenians, they will play the role of targets in the shooting range.
          So the fact of the matter is that they are static targets on the front lines! Also lazy.
          The enemy must be misinformed, deceived. Previously, it was possible at times, because information was transferred slowly, and now it is constantly.
          1. Operator
            Operator 18 October 2020 12: 57 New
            10
            In battle, decoys and reserve positions are not in business - the UAV perfectly sees the fresh heating of the surface in the firing sector of a tank gun and it is precisely in this tank trench that it directs gliding and loitering ammunition.

            PS Since the GABTU of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation does not bellow or calve, the next after the Armenians to play the role of targets in the shooting range will be residents of Donbass - Ze has already signed an agreement with Turkey for the purchase of UAVs and BBs.
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 18 October 2020 13: 20 New
              +1
              Quote: Operator
              In battle, decoys and reserve positions are not in business
              In battle, after the shot - cover with "smoke", change of position (this is the minimum). Again, the air defense task is simpler: it is clear where the "gift" will arrive. Or are they counting on fair duels?

              Quote: Operator
              The UAV perfectly sees the fresh heating of the surface in the firing sector of a tank gun and it is in this tank trench that it directs gliding and loitering ammunition.
              Read carefully:
              Quote: Simargl
              If you shoot the entire ammo from one position, the enemy may suspect something.


              Quote: Operator
              PS Since the GABTU of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation does not hum and calves
              Should they panic? I think they will do the most they can - they will ship something through Iran.
              Quote: Operator
              Ze has already signed an agreement with Turkey for the purchase of UAVs and BBs.
              I don't think it will help much. But Ze can get in so much that a scarecrow will be exhibited in the Kunstkamera.
  • Okune
    Okune 18 October 2020 09: 50 New
    +3
    The tank is not an individual fighter but the top of the pyramid in the army. Well, whoever understands this will effectively use them.
    PS Today I watched Pashinyan's speech in front of a line of soldiers. The dude was hysterical, shouted, choked, well, there was absolutely no feeling of a commander-in-chief.
  • sevtrash
    sevtrash 18 October 2020 10: 01 New
    +1
    Azerbaijan now has quite real opportunities to push through the defense of the Armenians. Their mini-aviation dominates the battlefield (sort of), which should give an advantage in the results of the impact of artillery. And they have more resources, and if anything, Turkey will throw in more. The only thing they are inferior to is in motivation, perhaps, the degree of motivation of Armenians is probably higher. If the commanders are able to adapt to the specifics of military operations, a sufficient inflow of motivated and trained personnel will be ensured, the information component will work as it should - the Azerbaijanis can and will achieve their goal.
    However, the main fixer, the United States, did not come into play. Russia has already lost in any way - the Armenians are unhappy and will be even more unhappy that Russia did not fight on their side. They are waiting for the worldwide indignation of the war to force Azerbaijan to end the war, but this is still not the case, who is to blame? Russia, of course, blaming the West and the United States personally is the last thing. For Azerbaijanis it is already clear - Russia is on the side of Armenia, the base and all that, and the only normal friend is Turkey. So the first loser is Russia. The second - will be Armenia, 7 seized regions, possibly, and will lose. As they are lost, by that time Pashinyan will be on his knees to beg the Americans to stop Azerbaijan and the Turks, promising to remove the Russian base (by that time its uselessness for the Armenians will be indisputable) and, in general, promising whatever the United States wants, wants. Well, Azerbaijan will be exhausted by that time and will agree to a truce. And the USA will be great.
    1. Alexey G
      Alexey G 18 October 2020 11: 13 New
      +2
      You think too simply about Russia! This would have happened under Eltsin or under the young Putin, but not now!
      1. sevtrash
        sevtrash 18 October 2020 11: 26 New
        +5
        Quote: Alexey G
        You think too simply about Russia! This would have happened under Eltsin or under the young Putin, but not now!

        Well, look for yourself - Ukraine has been lost, Belarus is going to lose, Armenia too, Kyrgyzstan there too. And most importantly, sanctions losses, to the delight of the Americans, are a subtle game. Someone who stayed in power, or maybe he is in reality a sent Cossack? Something lately, since 2013, Russia is in such a minus, and the boss is still the same. Well, he is like him, all is well. They have everything.
        1. Alexey G
          Alexey G 18 October 2020 12: 20 New
          -2
          Much of the above is true! However, there is no loss in war! We are under pressure! I speak to us because I love this country and relate myself to it in its history, I feel the involvement of myself through the ancestors who served it and already through myself, who served it for 13 years!
          So we are under pressure and we are weak in many ways. Maybe Putin is a little tired of the hard work he has! Yes, there is corruption and idiocy of the authorities on many floors! And serious reforms are needed, but we are not only losing!
          Ukraine is not completely lost, Crimea has been returned, and Donbass and Lugansk are not yet lost! Venezuela and Syria did not go to the United States, at least not entirely, no. Nothing is clear with Belarus either!
          And the game with Turkey is just beginning!
          1. sevtrash
            sevtrash 18 October 2020 16: 08 New
            +2
            Quote: Alexey G
            So we are under pressure and we are weak in many ways. Maybe Putin is a little tired of the hard work he has! Yes, there is corruption and idiocy of the authorities on many floors! And serious reforms are needed, but we are not only losing!
            Ukraine is not completely lost, Crimea has been returned, and Donbass and Lugansk are not yet lost! Venezuela and Syria did not go to the United States, at least not entirely, no. Nothing is clear with Belarus either!
            And the game with Turkey is just beginning!

            You yourself probably feel the weakness of counterarguments. The bet on a position of strength with the arguments of the world supplier of energy resources turned out to be untenable, the confrontation with the United States was and is very expensive, they worked like an elephant in a china shop. For such work it is necessary to be judged not only to be kicked out of power.
            1. Alexey G
              Alexey G 18 October 2020 19: 07 New
              +3
              When you love something, logical arguments don't work! And I love her Russia!
              1. sevtrash
                sevtrash 18 October 2020 19: 54 New
                +2
                Quote: Alexey G
                When you love something, logical arguments don't work! And I love her Russia!

                Love is not enough, you have to do it. Especially to those who declare it at the state level
                1. Alexey G
                  Alexey G 18 October 2020 22: 08 New
                  +3
                  Seryozha just needs everyone to love her, and not steal money from her ...
        2. Vadim237
          Vadim237 18 October 2020 15: 20 New
          0
          “Belarus is at a loss” - No Lukashenka is a very tough nut to crack, most likely if he smells very fried, he will propose a referendum with unification with Russia and thereby remove the threat of loss for us.
          1. sevtrash
            sevtrash 18 October 2020 16: 03 New
            +3
            Quote: Vadim237
            “Belarus is at a loss” - No Lukashenka is a very tough nut to crack, most likely if he smells very fried, he will propose a referendum with unification with Russia and thereby remove the threat of loss for us.

            Lukashenka is again playing his game with the West - like "I will play with Russia with the unification, form anti-Russian sentiments, and for this, let me sit as a boss longer." I can't see it.
        3. Wertgan
          Wertgan 19 October 2020 21: 49 New
          0
          Cool .. When, on the eve of the referendum, Skomorokhov honored his articles here, did you write something against their meaning in the comments? Or did they join the foolish, eternally offended majority? And now you are jealous that "they have everything", but you were not given ..
      2. 72jora72
        72jora72 19 October 2020 04: 37 New
        -2
        You think too simply about Russia! This would have happened under Eltsin or under the young Putin, but not now!
        Yes, we realized that this is another cunning plan.
    2. Cetron
      Cetron 18 October 2020 12: 34 New
      +5
      So nobody attacked Armenia! This AZ liberates the occupied territories. Armenia does not seem to be at war at all, Karabakh is not Armenia!
      1. sevtrash
        sevtrash 18 October 2020 16: 00 New
        +1
        Quote: Cetron
        Nobody attacked Armenia! This AZ liberates the occupied territories. Armenia does not seem to be fighting at all, Karabakh is not Armenia!

        Formally, yes, but in fact everyone knows that Armenia is at war. You probably do too.
        1. Cetron
          Cetron 18 October 2020 16: 11 New
          +1
          Ukraine has been at war with Russia for 6 years, and Russia did not come to the war ...
          1. sevtrash
            sevtrash 18 October 2020 16: 35 New
            +4
            Quote: Cetron
            Ukraine has been at war with Russia for 6 years, and Russia did not come to the war ...

            Well, without Russia behind their backs, neither the DPR nor the LPR would have survived and will not survive. If they live. In general, it is difficult to understand how Ukraine lost, after all, the most important country for Russia from the countries of the USSR, with multilateral ties, and so about ... t. And further more. And they sit in power, as if everything is going as it should. Unless for them - as it should. So, maybe they sold out a long time ago?
            1. Wertgan
              Wertgan 19 October 2020 21: 55 New
              +1
              So all the people of Russia sold out long ago (for jeans and McDonald's, if anyone does not know). I have long lost the feeling of my homeland. A simple example: after the collapse of statehood in the nineties, did someone feel like a catastrophe for their empire? Even then, we lost both Ukraine and Belarus and Kazakhstan. And now the process of our disposal just continues ... And even now, does anyone understand? Is someone sounding the alarm? No ... The majority is to blame for everything ...
  • Sergej1972
    Sergej1972 18 October 2020 10: 07 New
    +1
    Author, double-check the data comparing the GDP of Armenia and Azerbaijan per capita. By the way, if at face value, the difference is small, and if at PPP, then Azerbaijan's indicators are much better.
  • Alexey G
    Alexey G 18 October 2020 11: 06 New
    +3
    Well, it won't be possible to terrorize Armenians with drones for a long time! Any new weapon finds itself sooner or later an antidote! Or they themselves will undertake something or buy some medicine from them ...
    And drones will not be able to capture territory! A guerrilla war will begin in the mountains and then the drones will be of little use! The partisans have few armored vehicles, and under the crown of the trees, the optical eyes of the bayractor will see little and only have to brag about their killed from mines and snipers ...
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 18 October 2020 15: 30 New
      +2
      There will not be any guerrilla war in the whole of Karabakh 150000 people lived and now, for sure, half of them have already disappeared, and Azerbaijan's shock drones and kamikaze drones will not run out either today or tomorrow, and even in the most distant future, since Azerbaijan itself produces them in the same way as Turkey and Israel. And all partisan groups, in the absence of the population, will receive the Khan, the same drones will not be given to them, day or night - they have excellent IR cameras. Only bad weather can help Armenians - and even then for a short time.
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 18 October 2020 14: 42 New
    +1
    Looking at the stupidity of the command of the NKR and Armenia, one involuntarily compares them with the generals of the Red Army in the summer of 1941. They have neither strategic experience nor exactingness from subordinate troops. As a template, in an open field, the tanks were placed without camouflage at the mercy of the UAV. It is not the first days, it is clear that Azeri drones are Great Danger. And the Armenian air defense will not adapt in any way ...
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 October 2020 15: 02 New
    +2
    It is absolutely pointless to draw conclusions about the futility of the future of tanks based on the results of this stage of the Karabakh conflict, since this is a local conflict in a specific theater of operations with serious restrictions on the use of tanks (excluding the possibility of using their characteristic combat properties), as well as with not always thought out tactics of their use and poor preparation personnel.

    And there’s nothing to add
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 19 October 2020 00: 47 New
      -2
      Of course, it is too early to write off the whole class "tank", But it is the MBT class that raises questions. Perhaps wheeled, light and medium "tanks" were more effective. From the series Centaur, VT5, Sprut-SD, Kaplan, Griffin II. Maneuverability, stealth, KAZ, situational awareness are becoming more important than armor.
  • Vadim237
    Vadim237 18 October 2020 15: 04 New
    -2
    The best means of transportation and movement in such an area are Buggy, they can carry everything from cartridges to ATGM 82 mm mortars and mini MLRS.
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 24 October 2020 19: 59 New
      0
      A horse, or a donkey. On mountain trails, only such transport.
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 18 October 2020 15: 06 New
    11
    "Azerbaijan staked on the" blitzkrieg "" ///
    ----
    Azerbaijan did not stake on blitzkrieg. He didn’t focus
    shock fists in any direction and did not attempt to break through the defenses on the move.
    Azerbaijan destroyed in a week air defense, armored forces and artillery of Armenia
    on the front line and gradually probed its defenses with small pressure and seizure of heights.
    And he did very well, without any blitzkrieg.
    1. Lad
      Lad 18 October 2020 19: 12 New
      -1
      Well, you are so small. This site is Russian and the majority of Russians are here. And the Russians are emotionally on the side of the Armenians, since there is a base there, etc., in short, they consider it to be their type (type!). Therefore, all statements here must be corrected at this point. In a sense, even if Azerbaijan is advancing, people still need to speak as if they are losing. And whoever has a desire to speak like this is looking for a way. And he finds, naturally shaping his thoughts in this way. Now, if the Armenians moved forward even a kilometer, then yes, then no one else would be looking at anything, but everyone would praise the Armenians and be happy for them.
      (In fact, the situation there, of course, is much more complicated than the definition of "friend or foe", but it is not customary to talk about it at the everyday level (and here it is approximately).)
      1. Wertgan
        Wertgan 19 October 2020 22: 42 New
        +1
        The Russians consider not only Armenia but also Azerbaijan as their own, and even more so Karabakh, which belonged to Russia even before the emergence of the Republic of Azerbaijan)))
    2. Oquzyurd
      Oquzyurd 19 October 2020 00: 09 New
      0
      They do not want to believe their eyes, to admit the obvious. Therefore, they come up with all sorts of fables, then militants, then F-16, then special forces of other countries, etc., The fable does not pass, then the song about the failure of the "blitzkrieg".
      1. Wertgan
        Wertgan 19 October 2020 22: 50 New
        +1
        It is obvious that now Azerbaijan, with the help of Turkey (a NATO country), seems to be gaining the upper hand over Armenia (whose president was brought to power by NATO forces). And then Armenia will go into battle with the help of NATO support. And so on to infinity, until both republics understand that they are a battlefield for the war between the West and Russia, and the people of these republics are grass on this battlefield. Alas ... This is to be understood by the peoples of each of the republics that illegally seceded from the USSR. Each will be drawn into the war ... For the sake of the war on the borders of present-day Russia. Let's think together how to break this obvious plan?
  • high
    high 18 October 2020 19: 22 New
    +1
    In addition, Azerbaijan massively used drones, reconnaissance, shock and "kamikaze" made in Turkey and Israel. The most effective was the Turkish strike UAV Bayraktar TB2.
    [Quote] [/ quote]
    Ankara acquired UAV production technology from Israel
    https://riafan.ru/1284415-izrail-predostavlyaet-turcii-vysokie-tekhnologii-chtoby-oslabit-sar
  • staxan
    staxan 18 October 2020 20: 46 New
    0
    IMPORTANT !!!
    Neighboring countries with Azerbaijan, Russia, Turkey, Georgia, Iran, sent a complaint and protest to the UN. The protest states that Armenia is arming aggressive Azerbaijan and supplying it with all types of weapons. The countries demand from the international community to stop Armenia. Azerbaijan already has all its warehouses full
  • Operator
    Operator 18 October 2020 21: 15 New
    +1
    Quote: Simargl
    something will be shipped through Iran

    The problem is that there is nothing to ship from the word at all.
  • Flavius
    Flavius 19 October 2020 12: 23 New
    0
    Comments on this resource can be interesting, it is clear that they are competent. But for some reason you are missing one simple, but essential thing!

    The Azerbaijanis and Turks, who staged this war, hoped that the Armenians would run (!) For this very reason. There are a lot of confirmations for this. This includes the use of Nazi tactics, penetration by groups into the enemy's rear and firing (not necessarily with damage). All this and other actions aimed at undermining morale and causing flight! There is no escape.

    Maybe if the military operation had been developed by the Azerbaijanis themselves, it would have been different, but the Turks are clearly conducting it.

    I have a suspicion that Pashinyan thought to surrender Karabakh in this way, not himself - he is a pawn, his boss Ter-Petrosyan lost his place precisely for this reason - the surrender of Karabakh (although the paradox is that Ter-Petrosyan himself made his career precisely from waking (rocking) the issue of secession of Karabakh back in the USSR). And its owners, i.e. The United States and further decided to support Aliyev and the Turks and strike at Russia at the same time.

    The events of 100 years ago remind, then the Turks reached Yerevan, massacring the civilian population in 1920 in the fall. At that time, Armenia was headed by Vratsyan, a former editor-in-chief of the newspaper from the United States. The only difference is that then the army fled and the Turks easily got the victory. Then there was the second genocide of 1920, which is not mentioned. Georgia, as always, betrayed Armenia, participated in the blockade. The United States, as always, betrayed Armenia under the knife of a Turk, Great Britain, as usual, is on the side of the Turks.
    1. Selevc
      Selevc 19 October 2020 14: 35 New
      +1
      Then there was the second genocide of 1920, which is not mentioned. Georgia, as always, betrayed Armenia, participated in the blockade. The United States, as always, betrayed Armenia under the knife of a Turk, Great Britain, as usual, is on the side of the Turks.
      Does the Armenian youth know about this ??? Otherwise, the impression is that the Armenians, in general, all the peoples of the Caucasus have hot blood and bad memory - and this is a bad combination - and especially very bad for solving strategic tasks !!!
      Tanks in the Karabakh conflict
      Good targets for UAVs !!!
      To date, Russia has lost the UAV race and we are not talking about the leading countries like Germany and the United States, but about Turkey !!! One gets the impression that in Russia for the last 30 years they have been "playing with airplanes" while in the rest of the world this has been rapidly mastered and put on the conveyor !!! Today, it's not that an armored personnel carrier or a tank is defenseless against a UAV strike, but even air defense equipment !!! This speaks of a major failure in the development of air defense systems over the past 30 years! And note the UAVs are not used yesterday and not even the day before yesterday, but since 1991 !!!
  • 9 Shaft
    9 Shaft 21 October 2020 12: 26 New
    0
    Such a feeling of everything, to say the least, disgusting.
    Firstly, these two "peculiar" people, personally, have never inspired confidence in me, they are always in their minds and if they say something necessary, being even among foreign languages, always smiling, but in their own way. Of course, they can be friends and so on and so on ... But the fact that these are two neighbors of a hater is not enough to say.
    Secondly, given that a bad world is always better than war, such conflicts do not arise in vain. We were sorting out the Syrian war, now the Libyan and Karabakh war. And everywhere, if you look closely, there are significant differences and features. One gets the impression that the battle tactics are being tested, the use of forces and means, different reliefs and temperatures with heights.
    Third, in all conflicts there are advisers and observers of all the "main" parties. Everyone learns until a roasted cock pecks in the ass. This is just annoying.
  • Recoil
    Recoil 21 October 2020 17: 42 New
    0
    As a person who grew up, served, and trained in the USSR, I treat both sides of the conflict equally well. Armenians do not cause trouble if they are not taken seriously and not allowed to come close. Azerbaijanis are much more difficult, but the rule is also not to allow high concentration and keep at a distance.
    We'll digest everyone. The refugees' grandchildren will no longer know their native language. Unless the number of brown-eyed Russians will increase, but their asses will become wider. Welcomman!
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