Military Review

The choice of weapons in the confrontation between Armenia and Azerbaijan: ground forces

81

As important as the air force (air force) and the opposing air defense (air defense) forces are, the seizure of territory in any case is carried out by ground forces. A territory is not considered captured until an infantryman steps on it. So in the conflict between Armenia and the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic (NKR) with Azerbaijan and Turkey, the main goal is the capture / retention of disputed territories by ground forces.


Land forces of Armenia and the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic


The ground forces of Armenia and NKR include about four hundred main combat tanks... Basically, these are unmodernized T-72 tanks, only thirty of them had to be upgraded to the T-72B4 level, some of the above are even older T-55 tanks.

The choice of weapons in the confrontation between Armenia and Azerbaijan: ground forces

Tank T-72 Defense Army of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic

There are also about three hundred BMP-2, about one and a half hundred BMP-1 and a number of armored personnel carriers. Self-propelled anti-tank weapons are represented by three dozen SPTRK 9P149 "Shturm-S" and 9P148 "Konkurs". There is an unspecified number of transportable anti-tank missile systems (RTPK) 9K129 Kornet.


SPTRK "Shturm-S" (left) and "Konkurs" (right)

The most powerful and long-range offensive weapons in Armenia and the NKR are Iskander operational-tactical missile systems (OTRK), in the amount of four combat vehicles, there are still eight Tochka-U OTRK and 12 outdated Elbrus OTRK, presumably modernized to increase hitting accuracy.


Iskander OTRK (left) and Tochka-U OTRK (right)

The powerful MLRS "Smerch" of 300 mm caliber in the amount of four units and eight Chinese MLRS WM-80 of 273 mm caliber have similar characteristics to the OTRK. There is also, according to various sources, about 50-80 MLRS "Grad" caliber 122 mm.


MLRS "Smerch" (left) and MLRS WM-80 (right)

Barrel artillery is represented by self-propelled guns of caliber 122 mm and 152 mm 2S3 "Akatsiya" and 2S1 "Gvozdika" with a total number of about sixty units, as well as towed guns 2A36 "Hyacinth-B", D-20, D-1, ML-20, D -30 and M-120 mortars with a total number of about three hundred units.

The number of the ground forces of Armenia is about forty thousand people, the number of the NKR defense army is estimated at twenty thousand people.

The effectiveness of one type or another of weapons and military equipment varies greatly depending on the nature of the terrain on which it is operated and the type of enemy with whom it is necessary to fight. No less important is the planned nature of combat operations: offensive or defensive.

Armored vehicles and countermeasures


In the XX century, there were two world wars, the tactics of warfare in which differed radically. Simply put, if you subtract the First World War from the Second World War, then the tanks will remain. It was the massive use of tanks (in combination with the motorization of infantry, artillery and supply forces) that gave the armed forces the ability to quickly concentrate forces, ensuring a breakthrough of the enemy's defenses in the chosen direction.

Of course, don't forget about the role aviation, but if we exclude tanks, then the Second World War would also most likely be reduced to positional battles. Aviation, like artillery, by itself is not capable of breaking through the front, as well as inflicting unacceptable damage to the enemy, and the infantry and cavalry are either too slow or too vulnerable to organize breakthroughs.

What does this mean in practical terms for the conflict between Armenia / NKR and Azerbaijan / Turkey?

The fact that tanks, as the main force of the ground forces, are necessary for Azerbaijan to conduct offensive operations and are much less important for Armenia / NKR, since they do not have such a task.

It can be assumed that tanks are needed by Armenia / NKR to resist the tanks of Azerbaijan, but this statement can be called into question, since in current military conflicts, tanks almost do not fight with tanks, but act as highly protected mobile firing points. In turn, the destruction of tanks is carried out by other means, most often by ground and air complexes of guided weapons.

For Armenia, increased vulnerability of tanks and other armored vehicles from high-precision weapons is the most important factor: unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) of Azerbaijan methodically carry out the detection and destruction of armored vehicles in Armenia. Presumably, some of the destroyed armored vehicles are inflatable mock-ups, but many photographs clearly show that the goal was real, and the Armenian side does not always take measures to camouflage positions.


NKR servicemen often move freely enough, as if they were not in a combat zone

In practical terms, this means that there is no need for both Armenia and NKR to buy new tanks. Of those that are available, it is advisable to select the most modern and in good condition, carry out their modernization and form several shock reserve groups. Their task may be to counteract deep penetrations of the enemy into the rear in the event that such are carried out. At the same time, it is inexpedient to send them to conduct regular hostilities at the front line.

The remaining armored vehicles can be used as means of fire support or put into reserve to save money. In the case of using obsolete vehicles on the front line as some kind of mobile pillboxes, camouflaged firing positions should be equipped for them, 3-4 inflatable mock-ups and other camouflage means should be used for one real combat vehicle, which we considered in the article The choice of weapons in the confrontation between Armenia and Azerbaijan: disguise as a "way of deception".


High-quality camouflage significantly increases the chances of armored vehicles for survival in the conditions of enemy air domination

The main means of countering enemy armored vehicles should not be tanks or aircraft, but a large number of portable and transportable anti-tank missile systems (ATGM).

From the point of view of the criterion "cost - effectiveness" the optimal solution would be the purchase of several hundred launchers of ATGM "Kornet" and ATGM "Metis" developed by the Tula JSC KBP. Their exact cost is unknown and may vary depending on the volume of purchase, but the approximate cost of the Kornet ATGM launcher (PU) is about $ 50, and the Metis ATGM launcher - $ 000. The cost of the anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) of the Kornet complex is about $ 25, the ATGM of the Metis complex - about $ 000.

If the order of the indicated prices is correct, then the cost of purchasing 100 Kornet ATGM launchers and 2000 ATGMs for them, as well as 200 Metis ATGM launchers and 4000 ATGMs for them may amount to about $ 50 million. Equipping the purchased launchers with thermal imagers will double this amount, but still the cost of the purchase remains more than realistic for the military budget of Armenia.


Portable ATGM "Metis"


Transportable ATGM "Kornet"

The highest mobility of portable and portable ATGMs allows them to be quickly concentrated in a threatened area. And the small size, lack of heat radiation and long firing range make it difficult for UAVs to detect them.

Massive use of ATGMs will disrupt any offensive based on the use of armored vehicles, and the ability to effectively camouflage portable and portable ATGMs will not allow the enemy to suppress them using air superiority.

The lack of support for armored vehicles and the presence of equipped and camouflaged firing positions at the defender will largely reduce the situation to the conditions of the First World War, during which, as you know, hostilities often turned into positional ones, and a large amount of manpower was required to break through the defense lines, often sent " for slaughter. "

Resistance to manpower


It is believed that the main damage to enemy manpower in our time is caused by artillery. At the same time, as we discussed in the article Battle suit. Wound statistics, bullets and splinters, since the Second World War, despite the increase in the share of high-precision weapons, an increasing number of losses occur due to the defeat of manpower with small arms.


The ratio of losses of manpower from bullets, fragments and mines in various military conflicts

Perhaps this is due to the fact that there was no longer such a massive use of artillery as during the Second World War. In the current situation, neither Armenia nor Azerbaijan can afford the use of artillery on such a scale.

Based on this, it can be assumed that small arms will become the main means of engaging enemy personnel in the Armenia / NKR-Azerbaijan / Turkey conflict, and artillery and armored vehicles will play a supporting role.

Accordingly, in order to carry out effective defense, it is necessary to ensure maximum superiority over the enemy in this type of weapons.

For a long time, there have been disputes about the insufficient effectiveness of small-caliber cartridges for small arms: the Russian cartridge 5,45x39 and the western 5,56x45 mm. Cartridges of 7,62x39 mm caliber also cannot be called an ideal solution due to their less flat trajectory, which complicates aiming.

Now the US Army is conducting a program for the development of advanced small arms NGSW, which, if successful, can significantly affect the situation on the battlefield. The cartridges used in weapons developed under the NGSW program are closer in characteristics to rifle cartridges of the 7,62x54R and 7,62x51 caliber than to the existing small-caliber ammunition.


Weapons and cartridges created by the NGSW program (scale of images may vary)

One of the tasks solved by promising weapon-cartridge complexes is to defeat targets in existing and prospective personal body armor (NIB)... The second task, more applicable to the Armenian-Azerbaijani theater of military operations (TMD), is to increase the effective firing range.

Despite the fact that weapons under the NGSW program and Russian analogues have not yet been created, the opportunity to improve the effectiveness of ground units exists already now.

First of all, this is an increase in the number of machine guns in ground units, relative to the number of other automatic weapons. As such, a single Pecheneg machine gun of 7,62x54R caliber and a large-caliber Kord machine gun of 12,7x108 mm caliber can be used.


7,62-mm single machine gun "Pecheneg" (above) and 12,7-mm heavy machine gun "Kord" (below)

Another area of ​​increasing the efficiency of the ground forces is to increase the share of high-precision small arms of 7,62 mm and 12,7 mm caliber. The 7,62 caliber can use the classic Russian Dragunov sniper rifle (SVD) or the Chukanov sniper rifle (SHCh) planned to replace it, as well as the AK-308 Kalashnikov assault rifle chambered for the NATO cartridge 7,62x51 mm (even though this will add a variety of assortments to the ammunition supply ).


Top-down: SVD, microwave oven, AK-308

As large-caliber sniper rifles can be used OSV-96 "Cracker" and ASVK caliber 12,7x18 mm.


Large-caliber sniper rifles OSV-96 "Cracker" (above) and ASVK (below)

All of the above does not mean that it is necessary to completely abandon the existing machine guns, but that the ratio of the number of machine guns and sniper rifles of 7,62x54R mm, 7,62x51 mm and 12,7x108 mm in comparison with weapons of 5,45x39 mm and 7,62x39 mm should be significantly adjusted in favor of the former.

The assault rifles will remain in mobile units and among the least qualified fighters, the militia. At the same time, more powerful weapons should be received by the most qualified fighters, whose training should initially be aimed at using the appropriate weapon.

What will it give in practical terms? First of all, this is a significant increase in the firing range. The negative aspects of small-caliber weapons were clearly felt by the American military in Afghanistan, when the Taliban used 7,62x51 mm rifles, and the US Army soldiers opposing them were armed with M-16 / M-4 rifles and M-249 machine guns of 5,56x45 mm caliber. It is believed that this is one of the reasons for the emergence of the NGSW program, as well as the purchases of the US Armed Forces of 7,62x51 mm rifles.


Following the results of armed clashes, the special operations forces (MTR) of the US Armed Forces purchased a significant number of FN SCAR-H rifles of 7,62x51 mm caliber

An important condition that increases the efficiency of using small arms is to equip them with modern optical and thermal imaging sights. And this applies not only to sniper rifles, but also to machine guns.


The Russian thermal imaging sight "Shahin" can be used on almost all types of Russian small arms, including large-caliber

Another way to increase the effectiveness of small arms is to equip them with silencers used when firing with standard supersonic cartridges. The use of silencers for weapons developed under the NGSW program is provided initially.

In Russia, closed-type muzzle brakes (DTC) are produced, which significantly reduce the sound and flash of a shot both for sniper rifles and machine guns, including large-caliber ones.


DTK closed type for rifles and machine guns of 12,7 mm caliber (left) and for machine gun "Pecheneg" (right) of the company "Rotor-43"


Shooting from a machine gun "Pecheneg" with a closed-type vehicle during the day

Shooting from a machine gun "Pecheneg" with a closed type vehicle at night

The increased range and the likelihood of destruction in combination with increased secrecy of the use of small arms will ensure effective defeat of enemy personnel beyond the effective range of the enemy's small-caliber weapons.

The massive use of ATGMs, which ensures the suppression of armored vehicles, and powerful long-range small arms, which ensure the destruction of manpower, are capable of effectively disrupting the enemy's offensive, even under the condition of his air superiority.


At the same time, all of the above-mentioned types of weapons will be more effective in conducting defensive actions than offensive ones; therefore, symmetrical measures taken by the enemy will not give him comparable advantages.

Artillery and MLRS


With the exception of tanks, cannon and rocket artillery will remain the only means potentially capable of breaking through firing positions. But, firstly, as we said earlier, it is doubtful that they will be able to create sufficient fire density to ensure the destruction of well-equipped positions (if, of course, the defender creates them). No state has enough funds to destroy scattered UAV firing points.

Secondly, enemy artillery can be suppressed by counter-battery fire, primarily with wheeled MLRS, capable of quickly moving out of the covert base to a firing position, providing a high intensity and density of fire and leaving the position before the UAV retaliates.

Barrel artillery can also be used to suppress enemy artillery positions, but it will be effective only when using high-precision missiles such as "Kitolov" and "Krasnopol" with a semi-active laser homing head, in combination with the use of small UAVs, since in the time required to suppress enemy firing positions with unguided ammunition, their own artillery positions can be detected and destroyed by UAVs.


Guided artillery shells (UAS) "Krasnopol", "Kitolov" and the complex of automated control systems "Malakhit"

There are still OTRKs, but their application to the context of the current conflict is justified only for the purpose of destroying similar enemy systems, MLRS or aviation and medium-sized UAVs at airfields, provided that their exact location is known.

In conclusion, I would like to note that the only way for a weaker adversary to resist a stronger adversary is to conduct irregular high-intensity combat operations. The key requirement for weapons required for effective use in such wars is their high mobility and maximum stealth, which determines the choice of weapons discussed in this article and in previous materials.

At the same time, in reality, the leadership of the armed forces is often overly addicted to "shiny toys", attributes of the armies of major powers: tanks, heavy fighters, long-range air defense systems, which, being purchased in limited quantities and not used systematically, are guaranteed to be destroyed by a stronger enemy.
Author:
Photos used:
nevskii-bastion.ru, bastion-opk.ru, topwar.ru, kbptula.ru, rotor43.ru
Articles from this series:
Does Venezuela have a chance to resist the US armed aggression??
What can it be? Conventional war scenarios
Outsourcing War
The choice of weapons in the confrontation between Armenia and Azerbaijan: aviation and navy
The choice of weapons in the confrontation between Armenia and Azerbaijan: air defense
The choice of weapons in the confrontation between Armenia and Azerbaijan: disguise as a "way of deception"
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  1. Insurgent
    Insurgent 17 October 2020 07: 26 New
    +2
    7,62-mm single machine gun "Pecheneg" (above) and 12,7-mm heavy machine gun "Kord" (below)


    Perhaps, according to the characteristic "tune" of the flame arrester, I would say that this is the NSV "Cliff" ...



    And the weapon ... The sides use different weapons, including cold ones, for wild, inhuman rituals ...

    It is difficult to determine when these photos were taken, during the course of this conflict, or earlier, but in fact ...



    1. Thrifty
      Thrifty 17 October 2020 07: 56 New
      +9
      What then awaits the civilian population of Karabakh, or rather, those few who will resist to stay when the Azerbaijanis begin to rule there? As if such photos did not become commonplace there!
      1. g1v2
        g1v2 17 October 2020 18: 30 New
        +1
        Nothing. The Armenians will no longer be there. For this, Stepanokert is being shelled so that the civilian population fled from there to Armenia. And if the Azeri reach there, it will look like Mosul or Grozny after the battles. PM peacekeepers will not survive there in the event of battles with the city itself.
    2. Insurgent
      Insurgent 17 October 2020 07: 56 New
      13
      The identities of two Azerbaijani soldiers, who appeared with their heads cut off, have been identified.



      Rhetorical question: What will be the reaction of the West?
      1. Observer2014
        Observer2014 17 October 2020 09: 12 New
        -5
        Quote: Insurgent
        The identities of two Azerbaijani soldiers, who appeared with their heads cut off, have been identified.



        Rhetorical question: What will be the reaction of the West?
        Do not worry. Armenians are not angels either. There are no gifts from both sides. They on both sides played football with their heads back in the first war. Give a video of eating babies.
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 17 October 2020 17: 28 New
          +2
          Observer 2014 "Don't worry. Armenians are not angels either."
          Yes, there is a video about them .. Of course, such wildness does not paint both sides. It only hardens.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Butchcassidy
          Butchcassidy 18 October 2020 00: 35 New
          +1
          It's a lie. About "all there are not angels." Show similar examples? Where in 2020 there are facts of the capture of Az fighters. R., their binding with the flags of Az. R. and murder on camera? Where are the facts of sobering heads by the Armenians? Where are the facts of targeted shelling of mosques?

          An artificial attempt to align both sides fails. The war is between light and darkness, good and absolute evil. And this evil is now 80 km from the border with Dagestan. And already these barmaley people are caught there and in Chechnya. What else do you need?
      2. Rubina
        Rubina 17 October 2020 17: 53 New
        -3
        Question 1. How is the soldier in photo 1 identified, if his face is not visible?
        Question 2. The stripe on the sleeve of the soldier in photo 1 - it is clearly visible that the Azerbaijani stripe is stuck with Photoshop, there is another stripe from below
        Question 3. In photo 2, the head is clearly glued, the severed head is twice as large as the head of the soldier who allegedly holds it
        Armenians can't really bungle a fake
      3. Otshelnik
        Otshelnik 17 October 2020 18: 02 New
        -3
        And how did they establish it? Did they present military tickets themselves or what?)) Calm down, this is a fake and, moreover, mediocre.
      4. Butchcassidy
        Butchcassidy 18 October 2020 00: 31 New
        -1
        Quote: Insurgent
        The identities of two Azerbaijani soldiers, who appeared with their heads cut off, have been identified.



        Rhetorical question: What will be the reaction of the West?

        Kill ... in one word. An unworthy right to live.
    3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 October 2020 07: 59 New
      +7
      Photo of the machine gun "Kord"
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 17 October 2020 08: 03 New
        +2
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Photo of the machine gun "Kord"


        Outwardly, they are very similar, given that "Kord" is a modification of the "Cliff", and by swapping the DTK "Kord" and the flamegas of the "Cliff", from the outside you will not immediately determine who is who ...

        And more ... I had to use the "Cliff" so much, but I had no idea that there was a special cartridge box for it.
        Usually there is an empty cartridge box next to the machine gun, in which the tape is placed, or in general, something is simply underneath it, for example, a pea coat, jacket ...
    4. Ros 56
      Ros 56 17 October 2020 08: 15 New
      +2
      Yes, these are not soldiers, they are animals, they must be destroyed in all possible ways.
      1. Observer2014
        Observer2014 17 October 2020 12: 37 New
        +1
        Quote: Ros 56
        Yes, these are not soldiers, they are animals, they must be destroyed in all possible ways.

        Are you talking about photoshop? Yes, this is another stuffing of lies. All the media are already laughing at the next Armenian stuffing. Well, and their protege on our website. laughing A bunch of reposts about the Maidan and other garbage. Oh, how the Armenians need Russia to get involved in the war.
        1. Ros 56
          Ros 56 17 October 2020 15: 46 New
          +1
          Well, to collect all the kalym workers in Russia and send them to fight.
        2. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 17 October 2020 17: 34 New
          +1
          Observer2014 "Well, their protégé is on our site."
          I don't remember the Armenian commanders on the site. But the administrator was Azerbaijani in my opinion.))) Although maybe I'm wrong.))) A photo with a cut off head can also be photoshop. But the vidos with the executions of Armenians (one of whom is an old grandfather) and finishing off an Azerbaijani soldier with the butt, I think, are real.
    5. dgonni
      dgonni 17 October 2020 09: 36 New
      0
      This is Syria or Libya. Armenians with Azerbaijanis are fighting in mountainous terrain. And here in the photo there is a desert as flat as a table.
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 17 October 2020 09: 39 New
        0
        Quote: dgonni
        This is Syria or Libya. Armenians with Azerbaijanis are fighting in a mountainous area. And here the desert is flat as a table.

        After watching this video, will you still think that NKR is exclusively mountainous?

    6. Mayor lee
      Mayor lee 17 October 2020 11: 33 New
      -5
      This is a low-quality Photoshop, it's obvious to anyone who understands this in the slightest degree. Low-quality propaganda, supported by serious information sources, shows interest in supporting Armenia.
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 17 October 2020 11: 42 New
        +6
        Quote: Mayor Lee
        This is a low-quality photoshop, it's obvious to anyone who understands this in the slightest degree.

        "Low-grade photoshop"These are pseudo-states, former Soviet republics, which are drawn on the borders of the Russian Federation.
        As long as they exist outside the borders of Russia, this bacchanalia will continue.
    7. The comment was deleted.
    8. sevtrash
      sevtrash 17 October 2020 16: 41 New
      +2
      The second picture is similar to the work of Photoshop, the head looks foreign to the picture. Poor quality fake, it seems.
  2. Thrifty
    Thrifty 17 October 2020 07: 59 New
    -2
    Actually, the impression is that the Armenians in Karabakh are armed mainly with rifle and artillery, because the facts of using the ATGM have not yet gone wild. But only the blind will not see the fact of the absence of military air defense!
    1. Insurgent
      Insurgent 17 October 2020 08: 11 New
      +3
      Quote: Thrifty
      Actually, the impression is that the Armenians in Karabakh are mainly armed with rifle arms and artillery pieces, because the facts of the use of ATGM have not yet gone wild.

      You just didn't follow the events closely. Quite a lot of such video evidence has already been collected.

    2. Nasdaq
      Nasdaq 17 October 2020 19: 23 New
      +1
      The main damage to Azerbaijan's equipment was caused by ATGM. The proof video is full of youtube and facebook.
      ATGM is a THING. "Cheap" and effective.
  3. demiurg
    demiurg 17 October 2020 09: 04 New
    +3
    "At the same time, in reality, the leadership of the armed forces is often too fond of" shiny toys ", attributes of the armies of major powers: tanks, heavy fighters, long-range air defense systems, which, being purchased in limited quantities and not used systematically, are guaranteed to be destroyed by a stronger enemy."

    If it were not for heavy fighters and Bukov / S-300 rooks would hang over Karabakh for 8-9 km non-stop. And if that, the Su-25 carries about the same number of bombs as all sorts of B17s and liberators carried from England to Germany. You can throw cheap cast iron nonstop across the squares. Or on request from the ground.
    And how you do not need 115-125mm armored babakha with a projectile speed of 1000-1200 m / s in the mountains. Not a word about mortars.

    In fact, everything is simple, we issue ASVK to everyone (by the way, remind the price of it?) Quickly, we prepare snipers for a year and a half. For whom KAFP did not have enough, we issue Metis. Eat and Ubevaesh (unknown tank player).

    The OKSVA command and the NATO command in Afghanistan are clinical imbeciles.
  4. iouris
    iouris 17 October 2020 09: 54 New
    +1
    We urgently need to stop promoting this "war", dirty from all sides. The bosses are not able to stop it, so the geopolitical situation is degrading, the consequences will be grave, if not fatal. The severed heads are, of course, spectacular, but the indiscriminate desecration of the people is a crime.
  5. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 17 October 2020 10: 46 New
    +5
    If the order of the indicated prices is correct, then the cost of purchasing 100 Kornet ATGM launchers and 2000 ATGMs for them, as well as 200 Metis ATGM launchers and 4000 ATGMs for them may amount to about $ 50 million. Equipping the purchased launchers with thermal imagers will double this amount, but still the cost of the purchase remains more than realistic for the military budget of Armenia.


    The Armenian diaspora, a week ago, has already raised $ 50 million in aid .... For this money, you can buy high-quality communications, a rifle, an ATGM ..... In the mountains, mines for 120mm mortars will go well.
  6. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 17 October 2020 11: 44 New
    +7
    All this will not help ... sad
    They show how Azerbaijani drones hit with rockets
    trenches, concentrations of infantry in dugouts, in firing points.
    An eerie sight. Direct hits from KVO approximately 1 m.
    Bodies can be seen scattering through the air.
    Until the drone problem is solved, no infantry weapon will help.
    Air supremacy has taken on a new meaning: DRONES, not aircraft.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 17 October 2020 12: 24 New
      -1
      This is not yet taking place directly in the mountains - bunkers in the rocks, etc. If they are.
      1. Shimshon
        Shimshon 17 October 2020 14: 35 New
        0
        In the mountains they will switch to spikes, with the same effect.
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 17 October 2020 14: 57 New
          0
          To use Spike, the enemy must be seen - first
    2. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 17 October 2020 12: 29 New
      +2
      Autumn is the time of fogs, it is very sad for aviation (UAV))))) to shoot vidos, Israelis are very much to advertise their goods.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 17 October 2020 13: 41 New
        -2
        Quote: TermNachTER
        Autumn is the time of fogs, it is very sad for aviation (UAV))))) to shoot vidos, Israelis are very much to advertise their goods.

        By the end of December-November, the ceasefire came into effect. Armenians agree now, Azerbaijanis look according to the situation hi but by mid-late summer, B / D will resume. If there is no progress in the negotiations following the armistice, of course.
        1. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 17 October 2020 17: 01 New
          0
          In my opinion, the Armenians are only playing at peace. They were the first to offer negotiations and are now proposing - they look very good in the eyes of the world community.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 17 October 2020 18: 26 New
            -1
            It is just not for them to play peacefulness - they:
            a) The defending side
            b) Their position is based on recognition of facts and not on international law. Those. there has been a de facto national state education on the territory for 30 years - let's proceed from this.
            c) They do not need this in FIG (to play in peace), while there are no territorial acquisitions. At the moment, there are only losses.
      2. Professor
        Professor 17 October 2020 15: 11 New
        +8
        Quote: TermNachTER
        Autumn is the time of fogs, it is very sad for aviation (UAV))))) to shoot vidos, Israelis are very much to advertise their goods.

        Fog is not a hindrance to a thermal imager, but fog can create a false sense of security on the defending side.

        PS
        The Israeli "product" does not need advertising today. The fighting showed the goods face.
        1. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 17 October 2020 16: 58 New
          +3
          What kind of education do you have if you write that? Fog affects any device that emits or captures this radiation. Tell me how the UAV operator will control his miracle apparatus without seeing the earth's surface? I will note that there is not an endless steppe, but mountains. The product will be shown by the face when the Jewish UAVs overcome the modern air defense system, organized and equipped, in full. Their and Turkish victories in Syria prove nothing.
          1. Professor
            Professor 17 October 2020 18: 25 New
            +1
            Quote: TermNachTER
            What kind of education do you have if you write that?

            I have a dissertation in electro-optics. And you?

            Quote: TermNachTER
            Fog affects any device that emits or captures this radiation.

            The thermal imager is not "any device" and the fog practically does not absorb the infrared spectrum.


            Quote: TermNachTER
            Tell me how the UAV operator will control his miracle device without seeing the earth's surface? I will note that there is not an endless steppe, but mountains.

            He will see the surface. Here commercial drone.
            [media-https: //www.youtube.com/watch? v = Y7mROTPAVZM]

            Quote: TermNachTER
            The product will be shown by the face when the Jewish UAVs overcome the modern air defense system, organized and equipped in full. Their and Turkish victories in Syria prove nothing.

            Already overcome and destroyed.
            The incident seemed incredible, because in Eastern Lebanon was created the world's highest concentration of air defenses. 25 divisions of Kvadrat air defense missile system, two C-30М air defense missile systems and two C-15М air defense divisions were located on a relatively small area of ​​approximately 75х125 kilometers, and 19 ЗРДН in the total score 19 ЗРДН (hence, the figure "XNUMX" in the name Israel, in total, XNUMX ЗРДН ). As the chief of staff of army air defense, Lieutenant-General Alexander Maslov, wrote, the divisions provided three-fold mutual cover.

            In addition, there were 17 anti-aircraft artillery batteries, 51 ZSU Shilka and 47 branches of MANPADS Strela-2. Such operational density of anti-aircraft weapons was not even on the front lines of confrontation with NATO in Europe and around the most important strategic facilities of the Soviet Union. In the Lebanese Bekaa Valley, the long-term efforts of the Syrians and Soviet military experts created an "exemplary" air defense force, which in Moscow and Damascus was considered invulnerable to any means of air attack, except for nuclear ones.

            And the Israelis destroyed this entire group in just a couple of hours. Moreover, they destroyed without loss, and most of the air defense systems did not manage to make a single missile launch.

            https://topwar.ru/117442-ukus-medvedki.html
            https://oleggranovsky.livejournal.com/275710.html
            1. TermNachTer
              TermNachTer 17 October 2020 21: 09 New
              0
              The latest technology operated against 50-60-year-old air defense systems)))) I want to see how the Israelis gouged the position covered by C-400, under the cover of the "torus" or "shell" + "krasukha" + "repellent". Then we will discuss. No losses)))) the Israelis do not have losses at all, from the word at all))) only if the broken equipment or the corpse remained on the territory of the enemy. Regarding the thermal imager - have you listed the "pluses", but have you forgotten about the "minuses"?))
              1. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 17 October 2020 21: 38 New
                +2
                PS Regarding Medvedka, UAVs performed only auxiliary functions. All the work was done by aviation. So I didn't understand how this has to do with the topic of our conversation.
              2. Professor
                Professor 18 October 2020 08: 48 New
                +2
                Quote: TermNachTER
                The latest technology operated against 50-60-year-old air defense systems)))) I want to see how the Israelis gouged the position covered by C-400, under the cover of the "torus" or "shell" + "krasukha" + "repellent". Then we will discuss. No loss))))

                I can demonstrate the destruction of the Carapace by the Israelis (and not a single one) as well as the destruction by the Israeli systems of the unbroken S-300 aircraft. It will be necessary to destroy the S-400 as well. For air defense is a weapon of the weak, and the weak are beaten.

                Quote: TermNachTER
                the Israelis do not have losses at all, from the word at all))) only if the broken equipment or the corpse remained on the enemy's territory

                The Israelis have all the losses laid out for public inspection, and for 70 years of its existence, Israel has never been caught by anyone hiding losses. Full transparency is one of the reasons for the popularity of military service. How many people do you have competition for a place in combat units?

                Quote: TermNachTER
                Regarding the thermal imager - have you listed the "pluses", but have you forgotten about the "minuses"?))

                I am waiting for you to list them. What field do you have an academic degree in? wink

                Quote: TermNachTER
                PS Regarding Medvedka, UAVs performed only auxiliary functions. All the work was done by aviation. So I didn't understand how this has to do with the topic of our conversation.

                No, not only. Soviet "advisers" asserted that kamikaze drones flew into the open hatches of combat vehicles.
                Have we dealt with the fog (the topic of our conversation)?
                1. TermNachTer
                  TermNachTer 18 October 2020 10: 06 New
                  -1
                  The fog was not dealt with. Ask the residents of Donbass about the "cons" of the thermal imager. True, they are miners and collective farmers, people are illiterate, they have not read sophisticated books, therefore they have been fighting against UkroSS for the seventh year, which have enough thermal imagers and are not Chinese "consumer goods". I especially like the interviews of the heroes from the Bandera Wehrmacht, periodically flashing in the media, they complain a lot - "the sniper is not allowed to live." This is already a "cobblestone" in the garden of the thermal imager - to make an aimed shot from the SVD, you need to approach 600 meters. If you believe the theorists, then a person is found 1-1,5 km away. Those. the shooter passes from 400 to 900 m. in the range of the thermal imager and nothing. And the cases are not isolated. I will no longer talk about DAP, Debaltseve, Lugansk airport. Your theory, once again diverged from our reality. We'll talk about NKAO when the real losses are calculated. Because, so far, apart from videos of dubious quality and cheerful reports, there is no evidence. If you believe Baku, then the Armenians in Karabakh have no soldiers or equipment left. It's just not clear - with whom are they fighting then?))))
                  1. Professor
                    Professor 18 October 2020 11: 31 New
                    +1
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    The fog was not dealt with. Ask the residents of Donbass about the "cons" of the thermal imager. True, they are miners and collective farmers, people are illiterate, they have not read sophisticated books, therefore they have been fighting against UkroSS for the seventh year, which have enough thermal imagers and are not Chinese "consumer goods". I especially like the interviews of the heroes from the Bandera Wehrmacht, periodically flashing in the media, they complain a lot - "the sniper is not allowed to live." This is already a "cobblestone" in the garden of the thermal imager - to make an aimed shot from the SVD, you need to approach 600 meters. If you believe the theorists, then a person is found 1-1,5 km away. Those. the shooter passes from 400 to 900 m. in the range of the thermal imager and nothing. And the cases are not isolated. I will no longer talk about DAP, Debaltseve, Lugansk airport.

                    The example is not relevant because:
                    1. The saturation of the eastern Ukraine with thermal imagers is unknown.
                    2. The scope of their application is unknown.
                    3. It is not known whether the Ikhtamnet snipers fell into the field of view of thermal imagers and whether they remained unnoticed.
                    4. Nothing is known and all your "shortcomings" are not reduced to facts, performance characteristics, but only to your logical conclusions based on your personal feelings.

                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    Your theory, once again diverged from our reality.

                    "My theory" has now been confirmed in the battles in Azerbaijan and "my theory" has not been refuted by any fact, not a single document, not a single photograph and not a single video clip. Finally show the video how the fog is not transparent to the thermal imager. Come on.

                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    We'll talk about NKAO when the real losses are calculated. Because, so far, apart from videos of dubious quality and cheerful reports, there is no evidence. If you believe Baku, then the Armenians in Karabakh have no soldiers or equipment left. It's just not clear - with whom are they fighting then?))))

                    The facts of the destruction of the Armenian armored vehicles are not disputed as they are confirmed by material evidence (ground shooting). The fact of the destruction of the Armenian unbroken one S-300 aircraft was confirmed by Armenian video filming.

                    The topic of fog is closed until you provide evidence of how fog makes thermal imagers useless. hi
                    1. TermNachTer
                      TermNachTer 18 October 2020 11: 53 New
                      0
                      If you believe the cheerful reports from Baku, which are precisely based on the data received from the UAV, then the NKAO has long had neither l / s, nor equipment. Who are they fighting with? What is the saturation of ukroSS with thermal imagers in Donbass - you can see the supplies from the USA and other countries. You can see how much was written off as a result of "fires"))) about the fog - can you explain to me how a grenade launcher with an RPG - 7 approaches DAP at 300 - 400 m, if everything is visible there with thermal imagers?
                      1. Professor
                        Professor 18 October 2020 13: 04 New
                        0
                        I look forward to hearing from you a video of "hedgehog in the fog", not fantasies.
                      2. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 18 October 2020 14: 53 New
                        0
                        I am waiting for explanations from you, as from a doctor of technical sciences, how can you approach 300 m to a position where there is a "terrible" thermal imager?))))
                      3. Professor
                        Professor 18 October 2020 15: 07 New
                        0
                        Was there a boy?
                      4. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 18 October 2020 15: 21 New
                        0
                        When videos of questionable quality are presented, do you have any doubts? As a Ph.D. or even Ph.D. you should hear words like computer graphics. How do you know the video is real? Can you draw everything, can you finish drawing what you need? Whether the video is real or not, the expert can tell if he receives the file. Are you an expert, do you have a video file from a Turkish UAV?))))
                      5. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 18 October 2020 15: 25 New
                        -1
                        PS Regarding the boy, if the BanderoWerrmacht, having so much modern technology, including thermal imagers, has been standing still for six years - decide for yourself whether it was or not?
                        A lot has been written about Donbass, take a little break from Karabakh, read - you see, you will understand me too, educate the dumb one))))
                      6. Professor
                        Professor 18 October 2020 19: 49 New
                        +1
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        When videos of questionable quality are presented, do you have any doubts? As a Ph.D. or even Ph.D. you should hear words like computer graphics. How do you know the video is real? Can you draw everything, can you finish drawing what you need? Whether the video is real or not, the expert can tell if he receives the file. Are you an expert, do you have a video file from a Turkish UAV?))))

                        What kind of education do you have if you write that? wassat
                      7. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 18 October 2020 20: 27 New
                        0
                        Radio Engineering Faculty of the Naval College and History Faculty of the University. And what does my education have to do with the reliability of videos and photos posted by the Ministry of Defense of Azerbaijan? I have a friend - a computer technician, part-time radio amateur and photographer. He "pulls" you videos and photos from the Internet and draws on as you want)))))
                      8. Professor
                        Professor 19 October 2020 21: 57 New
                        -1
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Radio Engineering Faculty of the Naval College and History Faculty of the University. And what does my education have to do with the reliability of videos and photos posted by the Ministry of Defense of Azerbaijan? I have a friend - a computer technician, part-time radio amateur and photographer. He "pulls" you videos and photos from the Internet and draws on as you want)))))

                        But why are you asking? What kind of education do you have if you write that?
                        Will there be fog videos?
                      9. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 19 October 2020 22: 50 New
                        -1
                        waiting for an answer to my questions
                      10. Professor
                        Professor 20 October 2020 07: 06 New
                        +2
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        waiting for an answer to my questions

                        Immediately after you demonstrate the disadvantages of thermal imagers in fog. I have already demonstrated their advantages, and you merged.
                      11. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 20 October 2020 09: 11 New
                        0
                        With your advantages, in Donbass, how to put it mildly, they smile a lot. Explain why? Such a terrible device - and they laugh at it))))
                      12. Professor
                        Professor 20 October 2020 10: 59 New
                        +3
                        For the last time. Your conclusions are not interesting to me due to your lack of knowledge of materiel. I showed you photos and videos through a thermal imager in the fog. Now it is your turn to show photos and videos through the thermal imager that prove your words about its inefficiency. Evidence... You limited yourself to trolling spitting tales about the East of Ukraine here. Unlike you, I have knowledge in this area and have real combat experience in using thermal imagers both against enemy personnel and against equipment.

                        Your drain has been counted and I ask you not to disturb me again. Learn materiel.
                      13. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 20 October 2020 12: 43 New
                        0
                        From those pictures that you posted, I, to put it mildly, laughed strongly))) The first time I see a soldier on the front line, standing in full growth - posing as a growth target for the enemy machine gunner. We'll talk about the photo and video "a la Baku beobakhter" later, when we find out the real losses on both sides. Then it will be clear how much is actually destroyed, and how much is in the videos)))
                      14. Professor
                        Professor 20 October 2020 20: 12 New
                        +2
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Since the pictures that you posted, to put it mildly, I was laughing a lot)))

                        "Laughter for no reason ..." hereinafter

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The first time I see a soldier on the front line, standing in full growth - posing as a growth target for an enemy machine gunner.

                        There are no soldiers on the front line in the video. Again you are not in the subject.
                      15. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 20 October 2020 22: 50 New
                        -1
                        So I'm not talking about laboratory conditions, but about real combat conditions. For six years in Donbass, your miracle device has not shown itself in any way. How he showed himself in Karabakh, we'll see later, when he knows the real losses, broken down by type of weapons. So far, apart from fairy tales from Baku and Yerevan, there is nothing to talk about.
  • cmax
    cmax 17 October 2020 20: 08 New
    0
    Quote: TermNachTER
    What kind of education do you have if you write that? Fog affects any device that emits or captures this radiation. Tell me how the UAV operator will control his miracle apparatus without seeing the earth's surface? I will note that there is not an endless steppe, but mountains. The product will be shown by the face when the Jewish UAVs overcome the modern air defense system, organized and equipped, in full. Their and Turkish victories in Syria prove nothing.

    Why do you think that someone will wait until they create a modern air defense system at some theater? This does not happen in life. This is not teaching or window dressing.
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 17 October 2020 21: 40 New
      0
      Why wait? You can come to a place where they have been waiting for you for a long time and it will turn out very badly))))
    2. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 18 October 2020 10: 08 New
      0
      PS Why no one wants to "go" to Khmeimim, "drink some coffee"?))))
  • Hypertension
    Hypertension 17 October 2020 13: 33 New
    +3
    Quote: voyaka uh
    Air supremacy has taken on a new meaning: DRONES, not aircraft.

    DRONES because the sides don't have much planes. And the air defense of the Armenians, as it turned out, was not sharpened for drones. But drones are replacing aviation quite successfully. This ersatz aviation suddenly turned out to be a significant help for Azerbaijan.
    1. Professor
      Professor 17 October 2020 15: 13 New
      +5
      Quote: Hyperion
      This ersatz aviation suddenly turned out to be a significant help for Azerbaijan.

      Not suddenly. Israel did not replace all of its Cobra attack helicopters with drones yesterday or the day before yesterday. Drones are more effective.
      1. Hypertension
        Hypertension 17 October 2020 16: 55 New
        +2
        Quote: Professor
        Not suddenly. Israel did not replace all of its Cobra attack helicopters with drones yesterday or the day before yesterday.

        Suddenly for Azerbaijan. In the opinion of a person who, until recently, was not very interested in the situation in that region.
        1. Professor
          Professor 17 October 2020 18: 10 New
          0
          Quote: Hyperion
          Quote: Professor
          Not suddenly. Israel did not replace all of its Cobra attack helicopters with drones yesterday or the day before yesterday.

          Suddenly for Azerbaijan. In the opinion of a person who, until recently, was not very interested in the situation in that region.

          And not suddenly for Azerbaijan. In the last round, they used both Spikes and Haropes. Guidance was carried out by drones.
  • fedorina maria
    fedorina maria 17 October 2020 11: 45 New
    -7
    https://t.me/rusvesnasu/4582 гибель десятков армянских солдат. Новые кадры.
    1. cmax
      cmax 17 October 2020 20: 15 New
      0
      Quote: Maria Fedorina
      https://t.me/rusvesnasu/4582 гибель десятков армянских солдат. Новые кадры.

      Yeah. Looking at these shots, you remember Budyonny and the cavalry in 1941, going to the machine guns. The only plus. that after seeing this, people with large shoulder straps in Moscow can draw conclusions (and this is not the construction of new churches and the development of the Patriot Park or tank biathlon). They drew the same conclusions after the Soviet-Finnish war of 1940, although this did not help.
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 17 October 2020 12: 28 New
    +1
    Interesting article. Except for the Degtyarev sniper rifle, but we understand that this is a purely mechanical error
  • Operator
    Operator 17 October 2020 12: 40 New
    +1
    I still do not understand - how ATGM, small arms of 6,8x51 mm caliber and silencers will help the fight against UAVs and BB? laughing
  • Speedy
    Speedy 17 October 2020 12: 58 New
    +3
    The loss tables, in principle, do not say anything. WWII is a clash of two large armies, all the rest are not. Roughly speaking, both in Afghanistan and in Chechnya the spirits simply did not have at least a slightly comparable amount of artillery. The Armenians and Azerbaijanis are just lambing at a distance, the artel and air are among the Azeris, and mainly the artel among the Armenians.
  • Runway
    Runway 17 October 2020 13: 34 New
    +2
    Who is this article for? "Conducting irregular high-intensity combat operations" is a gem worthy of study in VVUZ ...
    Particularly interesting is the "plate" about the calibers of small arms. It would be useful for the author to clarify the real distances of firefighting under special conditions. At the same time, figure out (after having studied the materiel) that he should put zinc 5,45 or zinc 7,62 in the backbone before walking along the road crossed with the prospect.
    The same opera about BTT, OBT and barrel artillery ...
    Not good, however.
    1. cmax
      cmax 17 October 2020 20: 20 New
      -1
      Quote: WFP
      Who is this article for? "Conducting irregular high-intensity combat operations" is a gem worthy of study in VVUZ ...
      Particularly interesting is the "plate" about the calibers of small arms. It would be useful for the author to clarify the real distances of firefighting under special conditions. At the same time, figure out (after having studied the materiel) that he should put zinc 5,45 or zinc 7,62 in the backbone before walking along the road crossed with the prospect.
      The same opera about BTT, OBT and barrel artillery ...
      Not good, however.

      You can't foresee all the incidents in life, the article is relevant and to the point. There are many night, collimator, optical sights in a modern motorized rifle company. You will be surprised, there is almost no, with rare exceptions, it is expensive (chargers are needed, the batteries need to be serviced) and so will cost.
      1. Runway
        Runway 18 October 2020 01: 23 New
        +1
        The main purpose of planning is to foresee. Otherwise, you will be beat.
        Non-mechanical sights for fire combat in special conditions - dead poultice. For combat support units or ambush / rear guard - it makes sense (the first 5-10 seconds from the command to open fire).
        A fighter with a shot of 1000 rounds (if you engage with l / s by changing the target environment, conditions and time standards - detection / aiming / shelling-defeat) can do without any priblud.
  • motorized rifle
    motorized rifle 17 October 2020 15: 40 New
    +3
    Author of the article:
    With the exception of tanks, cannon and rocket artillery will remain the only means potentially capable of breaking through firing positions. But, firstly, as we said earlier, it is doubtful that they will be able to create sufficient fire density to ensure the destruction of well-equipped positions (if, of course, the defender creates them). No state has enough funds to destroy scattered UAV firing points.

    Let me disagree. Tanks in the mountains, no matter how much you massage them, cannot be defined as "the only means ...", they (tanks) have no freedom of maneuver. Several powerful land mines at critical points and "no one is going anywhere." Well-equipped defensive positions, destroyed by explosive ordnance, and scattered firing points too. Shooting assumes small combat distances, which means the most important thing is the time to reach these distances, this is a problem for the attackers, but if it is overcome, then this problem is already with the defenders. In short, whoever has great mobility and initiative will dictate the conditions of the battle.
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 17 October 2020 21: 43 New
      0
      If we forget that there are minefields and other engineering barriers that will delay the attackers. Do Azerbaijanis have a lot of ODAB? There are restrictions on the possible use
  • Konnick
    Konnick 17 October 2020 15: 47 New
    +2
    The article is so, a description of modern types of weapons of the ground forces with a small excursion into history. But now the reality is different and it is somehow biased to consider even contact combat without aviation. And if Germany did not have a Luftwaffe ... then it would have stumbled in Poland, and with France it would have been defeated. The blitzkrieg theory was based on the close interaction of tank wedges with aircraft, from reconnaissance to the supply of forward detachments of tank wedges. In Karabakh, the Armenians use defense with the help of strong points. And such a defense is relevant only when the attacking side lacks powerful artillery support and there is no intelligence. Azerbaijan
    makes the offensive slowly but surely, eliminates the control of enemy troops, extinguishes air defense, with the further purpose of using its aviation, destroys stationary strong points and supply routes. The only thing so far he cannot destroy the Armenian airfields. And let them walk in the mountains on foot, the ammunition capacity of 1500 cartridges for the PC or Pecheneg machine guns, there is no difference, it weighs 30 kg, you don't run too much, and the tank needs fuel, you can't take a lot on the reel, and the refueller won't go through the mountains, he needs roads ... I read a new word in the article - mobile pillboxes ... Tank as a pillbox, but the pillbox has a powerful roof, and a standing tank is destroyed even by a mortar, even active defense will not help. The article is unsuccessful. Only for some is it convenient for demonstrating their patriotic feelings in the comments. Yes, according to the plate about the losses in the Second World War, from the types of weapons, the Soviet Union and Germany have very different losses, the Germans have more than 80% of artillery and aviation, this is just a small clarification.
  • Bear040
    Bear040 18 October 2020 12: 15 New
    +1
    All these jeeps with ATGMs are called jihad mobiles for a reason. Yes, they are cheap, but they have no protection and the losses of such equipment are enormous. For the frostbitten Arabs with their high birth rates, this is not critical, but the Armenians do not reproduce, like bugs and cockroaches, and too high losses in personnel for Armenia will be fatal. Here you need to understand that where tanks could not resist, an infantryman with an RPG will not resist any more. Armenia needs to think hard about the serious modernization of its air defense systems, which have shown their inconsistency, without this, neither God, nor the king, nor the hero will help Armenia. And of course Armenia needs allies. The fact that the prime minister of Armenia barks at Russia will not make Armenia any better!
  • hly
    hly 18 October 2020 13: 42 New
    0
    The Degtyarev sniper rifle, in my opinion, was in the forties and was not called SVD, but a KB-2 rifle.
  • sevryuk
    sevryuk 18 October 2020 21: 54 New
    0
    Quote: Professor
    What kind of education do you have if you write that?

    Well, if you write, then you definitely have a doctor of technical sciences. ... recourse
  • Serpet
    Serpet 19 October 2020 14: 15 New
    15
    It would be nice if a significant part of the representatives of these two proud peoples went from Russia to their historical homeland, to defend the territorial integrity.