Military Review

How Dmitry Ivanovich destroyed the Horde army on the Vozha river

45
How Dmitry Ivanovich destroyed the Horde army on the Vozha river
Battle of the Vozha. Facial annalistic set


On August 11, 1378, a battle took place on the Vozha River. The Horde cavalry pressed to the river was almost completely destroyed: "And our soldiers drove them away, and they beat the Tatars, and flogged, stabbed, cut in two, many Tatars were killed, and others drowned in the river." All Temniks were killed, including Commander Begich. It was a complete defeat and a challenge to Mamai.

Противостояние


The Golden Horde quickly went from prosperity to decay. Already under Tsar Berdibek, the Golden Horde kingdom split into a number of semi-independent regions-ulus: Crimea, Astorkan (Astrakhan), Nokhai-Orda, Bulgar, Kok-Orda, etc. The powerful temnik Mamai put the western part of the Horde under his control, put his puppets on the Sarai table -khanov.

The turmoil in the Horde ("the great zamyatnya") was accompanied by the strengthening of Moscow. Dmitry Ivanovich pursued an increasingly independent policy. He did not let the prince of Tver take the grand-ducal table in Vladimir. Built a white-stone Kremlin. His cousin Prince Vladimir is building a new fortress on the borderlands - Serpukhov. In Pereyaslavl, the "great" Russian princes hold a congress, creating an alliance against the Mamayev Horde. The process of formation of the centralized Russian state began. Most of the princes of North-Eastern Russia recognized the power of the "elder brother". Specific liberties of the feudal lords, such as leaving for another overlord, began to be suppressed (although it was still far from complete control). Dmitry significantly strengthened the Moscow army. It consisted of heavily armed infantry and cavalry; the infantry was armed with powerful crossbows and bows.

The Horde did not want to strengthen Ryazan, Moscow or Tver. They pursued a policy of pitting the princes against each other, made raids and campaigns with the aim of ruining, weakening a potential enemy. In 1365, the Horde prince Tagai made a trip to the Ryazan land, burned Pereyaslavl-Ryazan. However, the Grand Duke of Ryazan Oleg Ivanovich, together with the regiments of the princes Vladimir Pronsky and Titus Kozelsky, overtook the enemy in the area of ​​the Shishevsky forest and defeated the Horde. After that, some noble Horde people went into the service of the Ryazan prince.


Map source: Razin E. A. History military art, in 3 vols. SPb., 1999.

Two battles on the Piana river


In 1367, the ruler of the Volga Bulgaria Bulat-Timur (he practically restored the independence of Bulgaria) undertook a campaign against the Nizhny Novgorod principality. The Horde almost reached Nizhny Novgorod. Considering that there would be no resistance, Prince Bulat-Timur dismissed the troops for a round-up, devastation of the village and capture of prisoners. However, the princes Dmitry Suzdalsky and Boris Gorodetsky gathered regiments, defeated the enemy near the Sundovik River, and then overtook them near the Piany River and threw them into the river. Many warriors drowned. After this defeat, Bulat-Temir did not recover and was soon defeated by Khan Aziz. Bulgaria fell under the rule of Mamai.

In 1373, large forces of the Horde again invaded the Ryazan region, defeated the border Russian detachments, and besieged Pronsk. Oleg Ivanovich led his squads and gave battle. The battle ended in a draw. The Ryazan prince gave a ransom and the Horde left. At this time, the Grand Duke of Moscow and Vladimir Dmitry led his troops to the Oka, in case the enemy broke through the Ryazan land. Since that time, the "coast guard", a permanent foreign service, was born. In subsequent years, the situation continued to escalate. Mamai's forces invaded the Nizhny Novgorod region, devastated many villages. Dmitry Ivanovich again led the shelves to the Oka. At the same time, he dared to retaliate. In the spring of 1376, the Moscow voivode, Prince Dmitry Mikhailovich Bobrok-Volynsky, at the head of the Moscow-Nizhny Novgorod army, invaded the Middle Volga, defeated the Bulgar troops of Hasan Khan. Russian troops besieged Bulgar, Khasan-khan did not wait for the assault and paid off. Bulgaria pledged to pay tribute to Dmitry Ivanovich, the cannons were taken from the fortress walls to Moscow.

In 1377, the army of the Arab Shah (Arapshi) appeared at the borders of the Nizhny Novgorod principality. This was a fierce commander, whom Mamai himself feared. The Russian historian Nikolai Karamzin narrated that the chroniclers said about the Arab Shah: "he was a Karl camp, but a giant with courage, cunning in war and fierce to the extreme." The Moscow and Nizhny Novgorod regiments came out to meet him. The young prince Ivan Dmitrievich (the son of the Grand Duke of Nizhny Novgorod Dmitry) was considered the head of the army. Russian troops camped on the left bank of the Pyana River, a hundred miles from Nizhny Novgorod. Having received news that Arapsha was far away and, apparently, was afraid of the battle and retreated, the people of Nizhny Novgorod, Suzdal, Muscovites and Yaroslavl became proud. The prince Ivan obviously thought the same way. Unfortunately, with the Russian army, there was neither the Grand Duke of Moscow Dmitry, nor the cautious Prince Dmitry of Suzdal, nor the skillful and brave Prince Boris Gorodetsky. Ivan had an adviser, an experienced voivode, Prince Semyon (Simeon) Mikhailovich Suzdalsky. But he was old, subordinate to Ivan and obviously showed indifference, did not interfere with the young prince to enjoy life.

The Russians loaded their heavy armor onto carts, rested, fished, indulged in entertainment and drunkenness: “start fishing for animals and birds, and have fun, without the slightest doubt.” Arapsha, through the Mordovian princelings, helped spread rumors about the flight of his troops and sent Mordovian men with braga to the Russian camp. Discipline and order were maintained only in the Moscow regiment of voivode Rodion Oslyabi. His heavy infantry stood in a separate fortified camp, the patrols did not sleep, the guards drove out the Nizhny Novgorod residents and the Mordovians with braga and meads. Oslyabya promised to hang anyone who drinks. However, one squad could not change the outcome of the battle. On August 2, 1377, the Horde attacked. They quietly removed the drunken patrols of the Nizhny Novgorod residents and suddenly hit the half-drunk, resting and disarmed army.

The result was a massacre. The Battle of Pian (Merry) became the most shameful abuse for Russia. From several sides the Horde attacked the peaceful camp. Barely a small part of the large rati managed to grab onto weapon... The rest had already been chopped up or captured. Many drowned trying to escape. Princes Ivan and Semyon tried to break through to the other bank (where Oslyabya stood) of the river under the cover of a personal squad. Semyon died in battle, Ivan drowned in the river. The Moscow squad repulsed the attack; the soldiers were armed with powerful crossbows. The Nizhny Novgorod principality was left without protection. Putting up a barrier against the Muscovites, Arapsha went to Nizhny and plundered a rich trading city. We went through a raid, smashing villages and leading people to the full. Then Arapsha hastened to leave. On the one hand, the warlike Boris Gorodetsky went to him, on the other - Rodion Oslyabya, who gathered the surviving warriors and significantly increased his forces. In the same year, Arapsha fell on the Ryazan land and burned Pronsk. He did not dare to go further and left.

Following the Horde, the weakened Nizhny Novgorod principality wanted to plunder the Mordovian princes. However, the squads of the brave and formidable Prince Boris Gorodetsky destroyed them. In winter, with the support of Muscovites, he made a punitive raid into the Mordovian land and made it “empty”.



Battle of Drunk. 1377 year. Facial annalistic set

Battle of the Chest


The next year, Mamai decided to punish the obstinate Russian princes. As the chronicler writes, “in the summer of 6886 [1378], the horde nasty prince Mamai, having gathered howling many, and the ambassador Begich's army against the Grand Duke Dmitry Ivanovich and the entire Russian land” (Moscow chronicle collection of the late 1949th century. PSRL. T. XXV. M. , 10.). Under the command of Begich, there were six tumens (darkness-tumen - up to XNUMX thousand horsemen). They were commanded by the princes Khazibey (Kazibek), Koverga, Kar-Bulug, Kostrov (Kostryuk). First, the Horde invaded the Ryazan region. They walked widely, aimed at Murom, Shilovo and Kozelsk in order to block the Russian regiments stationed there and secure the flanks. Ryazan squads fought on the border, which were protected by serifs. This was the name of defensive structures made of trees, felled in rows or criss-cross tops towards a possible enemy. In a difficult battle, Oleg Ryazansky was wounded, the Horde broke through to Pronsk and Ryazan.

As soon as Pronsk fell, Begich recalled the regiments that had blockaded Kozelsk, Murom and Shilovo. He was not afraid of the Russian regiments that were stationed in these cities, as he thought that the sedentary foot warriors would not have time to approach the decisive battle. However, the Horde commander miscalculated. Russia from time immemorial was famous for its powerful fleet (river-sea class ships). Voivode Bobrok, as soon as Kazibek's darkness left from under Murom and Shilov, put his soldiers on boats and moved to Ryazan. Timofey Velyaminov divided his detachment. Voivode Sokol with the foot soldiers began to go behind enemy lines. Velyaminov himself with a horse squad rushed to join the main forces of the Grand Duke of Moscow.

Meanwhile, Begich surrounded Ryazan, which was defended by Prince Daniel Pronsky. The city was on fire. Stubborn battles were fought on the walls. Grand Duke Dmitry Ivanovich ordered Daniel Pronsky to leave Pereyaslavl-Ryazan and on boats, at night, secretly go to join him. Grand Duke Dmitry Ivanovich raised his regiments and, thanks to well-organized reconnaissance, knew about all the movements of the enemy. His army was about half the size of the Horde. However, it was dominated by heavy cavalry and infantry, capable of stopping enemy horse lava with a "wall" - a phalanx. The infantry had many archers and warriors with powerful crossbows.

The Russian army crossed the Oka. The Grand Duke's troops took up a convenient position, blocked the ford across the Vozha River, the right tributary of the Oka in the Ryazan land. The Ryazan regiments came to join them. Begich's army went to Vozha and found itself in a difficult situation. The banks were swampy, on one side there was a river, on the other there was a spot, the Russian army could not be bypassed. I had to attack head-on. The Russian "wall" withstood the onslaught of the Horde cavalry, which could not turn around, attack the flanks and rear of the Russian regiments, using its numerical advantage. All enemy attacks failed. Then the Moscow and Ryazan regiments withdrew at night to the other bank of the Vozha. The retreat of the infantry was covered by the horse squads of Semyon Melik and Vladimir Serpukhovsky.

The convenient crossing was covered by Russian ships and regiments on the left bank. In the center was the Grand Regiment of Prince Dmitry Ivanovich, on the flanks were the regiments of the Right Hand of Prince Andrey of Polotsk and the governor Timofey Velyaminov and the Left Hand of Prince Daniel Pronsky. A large regiment stood at some distance from the coast and covered itself with fortifications: a moat, a small rampart and slingshots - logs with full spears-spears. For two days the horde of Begich stood on the right bank of the Vozha. The Horde commander sensed something was wrong, he feared an ambush. Only on the third day the Russians were able to lure the enemy: the Horde were allowed to burn part of the ship's army. Begich decided he could attack. On August 11, 1378, the Horde troops crossed the river. Two heavy cavalry regiments hit them. The Horde repulsed the attack and threw back the enemy. As soon as the main forces crossed and formed, Begich launched an offensive. Under the powerful pressure of the enemy of the squads of Prince Vladimir Serpukhovsky, the governors of Melik began to retreat to the positions of the Big Regiment. Before the positions of the shooters, the Russian cavalry went to the right and left. Part of the Horde thousands followed them, but the bulk continued to fly forward and entered the Big Regiment.


The enemy cavalry tried to overturn the Big Regiment, which was commanded by the governors Lev Morozov and Rodion Oslyabya. The Horde ran into the slingshots, stopped and mingled, were subjected to fire from powerful bows and crossbows. Iron crossbow arrows pierced the horsemen through and through. The Horde suffered heavy losses and at the same time could not reach the enemy. They could not turn around, regroup and go around the flanks of the Rus. After that, the Russian cavalry regiments attacked from the flanks, the main forces went on the attack: “The Russian police forces are against them, and strike at them from the side of Danilo Pronsky, and Timofey, the grand duke's wardens, from the other side, and the great prince from his regiment to face". The front ranks of the Horde were crushed, the demoralized enemy fled. Russian ships appeared on the river again, the fleeing enemy was now being shot from the boats. The Horde cavalry pressed against the river was almost completely destroyed. All Temniks were killed, including Commander Begich. Only part of the army in the dark and in the morning with heavy fog was able to break free and flee. The enemy's camp and train was captured by the Russians. It was a complete defeat and a challenge to Mamai.

The Battle of the Vozhe was of great military and political importance. The Grand Duke of Moscow openly challenged the Mamai Horde. Showed the strength of his army. He was able to unite the forces of North-Eastern Russia. A new decisive battle was inevitable.


Monument to the Battle on the Vozha River. Installed in 2003 near the village of Glebovo-Gorodishche, Rybnovsky District, Ryazan Region
Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/, http://militera.lib.ru/
Articles from this series:
Dmitry Ivanovich, prince-warrior. War between Moscow and Tver
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  1. bistrov.
    bistrov. 16 October 2020 06: 04 New
    +8
    Grand Duke Dmitry Ivanovich did a lot for the Russian state, in addition to strengthening the state, he built the first white-stone Kremlin around Moscow, before that Moscow was wooden, with him they began to mint Russian money. Before that, money was minted even before the Tatar-Mongol yoke. Dmitry Ivanovich died only at the age of 38, in fact he was burned to death in the civil service.
    1. Nazar
      Nazar 16 October 2020 06: 50 New
      +3
      bistrov. - In addition to what you wrote, you can also add - the prince's "team" was very strong - both the "native" Moscow boyars, and the "newcomers" (the same Bobrok), and Metropolitan Alexy at the beginning of the prince's reign had a huge influence on Prince and the development of the entire principality. And if we also remember about Sergius of Radonezh, then we can say that everything "worked out" for Russia in a very successful way, but it would be more accurate to say not "developed", but "folded", Dmitry's predecessors. starting from Kalita, this "team" was assembled, So Dmitry Ivanovich did not have to start from scratch - there was someone to rely on, but for the fact that he continued the work of his ancestors with dignity - for that he deserved fame and memory!
    2. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 16 October 2020 06: 51 New
      0
      bistrov.
      Grand Duke Dmitry Ivanovich did a lot for the Russian state
      Here on the site there are individuals who believe the opposite. Recently there was an article about Dmitry Donskoy, it was kind of called "Prince-warrior", so there were just comments there. One of them burst out with a whole opus in the style of the fact that de Donskoy in general poked at Mamai in vain, they say it was necessary to continue paying tribute to the Horde and sit quietly, they say nothing would have happened ...
      1. Grandfather
        Grandfather 16 October 2020 06: 59 New
        -2
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        Here on the site there are individuals who believe the opposite.

        but there are "individuals" who generally do not trust the History known from the manuscripts. This is me. For I am sure that History is always written to please the Rulers, and it should not be considered reliable. how the Germans misinterpreted the history of Russia with their "chronicles", how is "history" written in Ukraine ... what will the descendants know? mess in my head. what will be given, then it will take "people" .imho.
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 16 October 2020 07: 05 New
          -2
          Grandfather (Grandfather Old)
          but there are "individuals" who generally do not trust the History known from the manuscripts. This is me.
          The fact that history has been rewritten more than once is beyond doubt. It is being rewritten before our very eyes. Nevertheless, there is no reason to completely distrust the official version of history. In the end, it is enough to turn on the brain (if there is one) and think for yourself why these or those processes were needed and everything will immediately fall into place.
          1. Fan-fan
            Fan-fan 16 October 2020 16: 43 New
            +2
            Turn on your brains as much as you want, if all the rulers have distorted history, and how many rulers there were before our times, then the truth can no longer be found. Even this article has questions, for example, where is Veliky Novgorod, why did not his squads participate in the battles? Why did the Tatars not ravage Veliky Novgorod? But this city was then richer than Moscow. I read another version, where all these battles were defined as a struggle for power between our own princes, just the Tatars took part in it on someone's side.
        2. kalibr
          kalibr 16 October 2020 07: 54 New
          +2
          Why rewrite history? Especially for the Germans? What work ... what deep knowledge of the Russian language was needed for this ... About 5000, 5 thousand chronicle documents have been preserved ... And what did all the Germans rewrite? As well as painting regiments, letters of allowance, pepper paintings and city estimates, instructions to the governors, and regulations for tavern kissers, painting on awards, painting on kindyaks, noble letters of honor "what to own what", monastery charters, and court books, genealogies and " books about place "- THE GERMANS WRITTEN ALL THIS, YES? This is how many years from morning to night they had to write all this to match ALL CROSS-REFERENCES? And how many thousands of scribes ...
          But most importantly, WHY IS IT NECESSARY?
          1. Grandfather
            Grandfather 16 October 2020 07: 56 New
            -8
            Quote: kalibr
            Why rewrite history? Those not Germans? What work ... what deep knowledge of the Russian language was needed for this ...

            just ask. hi then, tell me your opinion.
            1. kalibr
              kalibr 16 October 2020 08: 11 New
              +9
              I don't need to be interested in this. I have covered this in detail here on VO in several articles. It is a pity that you did not read them ... But ... I am only interested in your answer to my question: Why did the Germans have to rewrite history? As you know, people do not like to do pointless things and no one will give money for this. So why, what's the point?
              1. kalibr
                kalibr 16 October 2020 09: 22 New
                +6
                What does minus mean? That I can't wait for an answer, right?
              2. Interlocutor
                Interlocutor 16 October 2020 09: 43 New
                +2
                Why did the Germans need to rewrite history? As you know, people do not like to do pointless things and no one will give money for this. So why, what's the point?


                I am inclined to believe that the Germans or other interested figures do not rewrite history, but replace the authorship and value of the moments of history ... It turns out that there is an event, but they either attribute it to another person or underestimate the importance of another person.
                In the Internet community, in general, this is very common. Everyday.
                Even on this site (especially). After all, any moment described in the article is inherently historical (in its time period). I think so.
                On rewriting history, you can get caught, it is very easy to slip through the substitution.
                1. kalibr
                  kalibr 16 October 2020 15: 59 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Interlocutor
                  It turns out that there is an event, but they either attribute it to another person or downplay the importance of another person.

                  And what events in our history have they played down? You see, in the early chronicles about the Battle of Chud there are 400 German casualties, and later there are already 500 of them. So they rather exaggerated, so it turns out? And this is just one example. Find others where the text of the events we know clearly would be downplaying. By the way, I had an article here where I just completely changed the content of the Chudskoy battle chronicle. Easy! With the same words. But for some reason the Germans did not do this ... They were probably ashamed ...
                  1. Interlocutor
                    Interlocutor 16 October 2020 17: 54 New
                    0
                    But for some reason the Germans did not do this ... They were probably ashamed ...

                    In principle, I'm talking about working with history. I'm not talking specifically about the article.
                    1. kalibr
                      kalibr 16 October 2020 18: 09 New
                      0
                      Quote: Interlocutor
                      In principle, I'm talking about working with history.

                      And I say that neither in principle nor specifically you will find traces of the humiliation of our clan-tribe in the annals or their heroes. They talk with sadness about troubles, about unrighteous actions, yes ... but there is no belittling and from reading a feeling of inferiority does not arise. And if it does not arise, but ... why then "even in principle"?
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 16 October 2020 10: 30 New
        +6
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        One so burst into a whole opus

        It was me. laughing
        But something I did not see under that "opus" of your reasoned commentary with objections. And indeed, not a single comment in support of Dmitry Ivanovich. Can you stand up for the honor of the prince?
        I repeat: I am of the opinion that Dmitry was an unlucky ruler, the result of whose reign was:
        the unification of the Horde and a significant increase in its power over Russia
        complete suspension for many years of the unification of Russian lands near Moscow's hand
        In relation to this article, my thesis will sound like this - all the blood shed on Pian, on Vozha and in other skirmishes of that war was only for the benefit of the enemy of Russia and postponed its unification and its acquisition of political independence. See the arguments in the "opus" that you have deigned to criticize.
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 16 October 2020 14: 44 New
          -1
          Trilobite Master (Michael)
          But something I did not see under that "opus" of your reasoned commentary with objections.
          Not when it was.
          And indeed, not a single comment in support of Dmitry Ivanovich.
          It doesn't say anything yet.
          I repeat: I am of the opinion that Dmitry was an unlucky ruler
          This is just your opinion, but not the ultimate TRUE.
          the unification of the Horde and a significant increase in its power over Russia
          How was this your "significant gain" expressed ?!
          complete suspension for many years of the unification of Russian lands near Moscow's hand
          Again, an unfounded statement, not supported by anything other than your conclusions.
          See the arguments in the "opus" that you have deigned to criticize.
          Arguments are so-so, as for me they are not arguments at all, but far-fetched your delights.

          Sorry, but the lack of time does not allow answering more extensively.
          I can only add that it is foolish to think that by paying tribute one can speak of any further unification and strengthening of the state. So, as for me, your arguments do not dance.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 16 October 2020 14: 49 New
            +3
            Quote: Alexander Suvorov
            So, as for me, your arguments do not dance.

            I will wait when you have time to bring your own, because you probably have them in abundance smile
            In the meantime, Prince Dmitry remains without a defender. Who will wash his bright image from the traces of my dirty paws? So hurry up! smile
        2. Looking for
          Looking for 16 October 2020 15: 02 New
          +2
          I agree. Dmitry Donskoy - "Russian" Pyrrhus. And he was raised on the shield for one reason - he was the FIRST to win over the Mongol-Tatars. What price is of no interest to anyone.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 16 October 2020 15: 35 New
            +4
            Quote: Seeker
            was the FIRST to defeat the Mongol-Tatars.

            Not the first.
            Even if you do not count Dmitry Alexandrovich, who defeated the Tatars in 1285, there was also the mentioned battle near the Shishevsky forest in 1365.
            Quote: Seeker
            And raised to the shield for one reason

            - was the direct ancestor of all Moscow princes and later tsars.
            Quote: Seeker
            What a PRICE, nobody cares.

            The price of the victory itself was not so great, the consequences of this victory cost much more than Russia.
      3. svp67
        svp67 16 October 2020 11: 30 New
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        in vain de Donskoy even poked at Mamai, they say it was necessary to continue paying tribute to the Horde and sit quietly, they say nothing would have happened ...

        Mamai, in those realities, a REBELER and a self-styled person. According to all the canons of that era, Dmitry did the right thing, he tried to elevate the Moscow principality using this zamyat and before the arrival of Tokhtamysh, the legitimate Chinggisid, he more or less succeeded.
        I will say one thing that the prince of Moscow was certainly not a commander, but he was a strong statesman, who managed to gather the necessary people around him and accumulate material resources to try to achieve independence
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 16 October 2020 14: 26 New
          +2
          svp67 (Sergey)
          I can only say that the prince of Moscow was certainly not a military leader, but he was a strong statesman
          That's right, he was an outstanding statesman, and the commander was Dmitry Mikhailovich Bobrok Volynsky. However, wars are won not only on the battlefields, but primarily by preparing for war, which Dmitry Donskoy cannot be denied.
    3. Proxima
      Proxima 16 October 2020 09: 29 New
      +1
      Quote: bistrov.
      Dmitry Ivanovich died only at the age of 38, in fact he was burned to death in the civil service.

      Historians have an opinion about the reason for Dmitry's act, when he dressed in simple armor on the Kulikovo field and stood up as an ordinary warrior in the advanced regiment, who was almost always doomed to death. But he was lucky when, after the battle, they began to search for him, they found him wounded, littered with corpses. So, the reason was the sweeping fatigue of the Grand Duke, which was emphasized by contemporaries, which is not surprising, that not a year, then a lot of military clashes: Lithuania, Tver, Ryazan, Novdgorod, and of course the Horde. However, fate did not allow Dmitry to die as easily as the Warrior. He later witnessed heavy defeats from Ryazan, the devastation of Moscow by Tokhtamysh and many other troubles that befell the Moscow principality.
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich 16 October 2020 07: 26 New
    +3
    Russia from time immemorial famous for its powerful fleet (ships river-sea class).

    Ghr, um, yeah ... belay request

    About how many WONDERFUL discoveries are being prepared for us ... "enlightenment" spirit lol
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 16 October 2020 07: 47 New
      +4
      And where was the famous Tartary at that time? Chi sho united with the Horde? And why is it not on the above map?
      1. Grandfather
        Grandfather 16 October 2020 07: 57 New
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        And where was the famous Tartary at that time? Chi sho united with the Horde? And why is it not on the above map?

        "this was even before historical materialism ..." Ostap Ibrahim Bender Bey. (C) yes
      2. Hantengri
        Hantengri 16 October 2020 08: 59 New
        +4
        Quote: kalibr

        0
        And where was the famous Tartary at that time? Chi sho united with the Horde?

        Of course it teamed up!
        Under the command of Begich there were six tumens (darkness-tumen - up to 10 thousand horsemen).
        Velikaya Zamyatnya is in the yard, and Mamai, suddenly, lightly gathers an army of 60 thousand. It is clear that the Tartarians threw people, there is no one else!
  3. Undecim
    Undecim 16 October 2020 08: 41 New
    13
    While reading the article, everyone waited for the "real Samsonism" to break out? She broke out in the description of the battle on the Vozha River. Where did the author draw his fables from, this is a great secret, which he does not share, but he lied a lot.
    The Russian army crossed the Oka. The Grand Duke's troops took up a convenient position, blocked the ford across the Vozha River, the right tributary of the Oka in the Ryazan land. The Ryazan regiments came to join them.
    Up to this point, everything is fine, then fiction went.
    The banks were swampy, on one side there was a river, on the other there was a spot, the Russian army could not be bypassed. I had to attack head-on. The Russian "wall" withstood the onslaught of the Horde cavalry, which could not turn around, attack the flanks and rear of the Russian regiments, using its numerical advantage. All enemy attacks failed. Then the Moscow and Ryazan regiments withdrew at night to the other bank of the Vozha. The retreat of the infantry was covered by the horse squads of Semyon Melik and Vladimir Serpukhovsky.
    Ruus' army I did not go over !!! All sources speak about this, starting with "The Tale of the Battle on the Vozha River".
    "The same summer, the Ordinsk prince of the nasty and Mamai, having collected howling many and Ambassador Begich,
    Prince the great Dmitry Ivanovich and the whole Russian land. Behold, hearing the great prince Dmitry
    rhei Ivanovich, having taken away howling many and seemed to oppose the force of the heavy and moved beyond the Oka, into
    the land of Ryaziansk and scuttling off the Tatars about the river oh Vozhi and standing, between the river imu-
    sht. Not on the same day Tatarova moved to this side and hit her horses and skip
    sha vborze, and nyuknusha voices with their own and poidosha on grunah, and tknusha on ours, and hit on
    them on one side of Timothy okolnichіya, and on the other side of Prince Daniley Pronska, and the prince
    great blows in the face. Tatarove, in the same hour, threw down her own copy and flew across the river beyond
    zhu, and ours after them beat them, secuchi and prickly, and killing a multitude of them, and inii in the river
    istoposh. And this is the name of the former princes: Khazibi, Koverga, Karabaluk, Kostrov, Begichka. By
    this evening, and the sun goes down, and the light is tornado, and it is now and it’s tma and not byeshe
    chase them across the river. And on the next morning, the darkness of Velmi is great, and Tatarova is still running away
    I live in the evening and I run all night. The prince of the great at the opening of the day before dinner
    after them followed them and drove them away, who fled far away, finding more in the field defeated
    their yards and their tents and their houses and their yurts and their alachyugs and their carts, and in them goods
    beshislen, everything is marked, but having not found the samekh, byahu bo ran to the Horde. The prince of the great
    Dmitrii return from there to Moscow with a great victory and dissolve the army with a lot
    self-interest. Then kill Dmitri Monastyrev and Nazar Danilov Kusakov. Behold
    the massacre of the month of August 11th day, in memory of the holy martyr Yeouplus the deacon, in
    do in the evening. "
    That is, the author simply invented the entire episode, as well as the participation in the battle of some "ship men".
    A question arises to the author - does the feat of Russian soldiers in the Battle of Vozha require lies when describing it? Or, without this delirium, will the significance of this episode in history decrease somehow?
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 16 October 2020 08: 45 New
      +2
      Quote: Undecim
      A question arises to the author - does the feat of Russian soldiers in the Battle of Vozha require lies when describing it?

      whoa! that's what I was talking about. History, it is such a "history"! No one living today knows the truth.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 16 October 2020 09: 19 New
        +3
        Quote: Dead Day
        No one living today knows the truth.

        Did the Germans rewrite this chronicle too? Or did they make an exception for this moment?
        1. Grandfather
          Grandfather 16 October 2020 09: 30 New
          -3
          Quote: kalibr
          feat of Russian soldiers in the battle on Vozh

          oh ... well, I don't know. How should I know ? They already wrote that a firearm was used there, then they denied it, and that they just did not write. who to believe then? what am I talking about, so many interpretations, which is the Truth? and the Germans, in the times of Peter the Great, wrote the History of Rus, almost all "scientists" were Germans in Russia.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 16 October 2020 09: 55 New
            +3
            Okay! If you don't want me to answer my question, okay. Find my article on VO, and about how many Germans were in Russia in "Peter's times" and how they "rewrote". Find is not difficult. But this is what I wanted to write to you: it is SENSE TO rewrite history because HISTORY REALLY NEEDS NO ONE. The state does not need it because it needs something completely different, namely, that its citizen - here YOU, for example, would go to work, purchase goods and services, pay taxes, then have sexual intercourse, conceive and raise a shift and ... ! Where is the place for history in this scheme of being? There are simply fairy tales for children and there are "stories" for adults. It's just that people have a need to learn something new. And the need must be satisfied. AND EVERYTHING! The content of "satisfaction" for the state does not matter. So I will write that there was no battle on Lake Peipsi. So what? Will you stop paying taxes? I will write that Stalin is a genius of all times and peoples and will you buy an extra bottle of vodka on this occasion? I will not believe! Will I write that he is a mustachioed villain? Will you stop paying utility bills? That is, the state has ways without "history" to force its citizens to do EVERYTHING IT NEEDS. At the time of Peter, 90 percent of Russians had no idea about history at all! Why fake it, waste energy, money ... Only the novelty of the material matters. Because people are greedy for everything new. That's all. If now "history is canceled" or banned, it will not affect your payment of taxes, labor, food, sex in any way. Well ... there will be discomfort from the loss of familiar information and that's it. But what about ... Poles ... And this -> damn
            1. Moskovit
              Moskovit 17 October 2020 09: 08 New
              +1
              The Germans knew that after they forged 5000 chronicles, the serfs would begin to work better, and the nobles would serve the Tsar-Father, and then the Queen-Mother.
    2. kalibr
      kalibr 16 October 2020 09: 21 New
      +2
      Look what you are, Viktor Nikolaevich! And the text is difficult to read ...
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 16 October 2020 09: 43 New
        +8
        And the text is difficult to read ...
        Any striving is blind when there is no knowledge. All knowledge is vain when there is no labor.
  4. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 16 October 2020 11: 44 New
    10
    According to the article.
    In short - another delirium.
    The author figured out the question at the level of a fifth-grader of a Soviet school forty years ago. For a modern fifth-grader, this is, of course, an unattainable level, but for the author of articles in a respected publication, forgive me, writing such fantastic fairy tales, in my opinion, is absolutely unacceptable. The only thing missing is the passage about Russian submarines ripping open the bellies of the Horde horses at the crossing, about the bombardment of the Horde with pig excrement from balloons and about the Russian special forces, who personally eliminated Begich and his entire staff.
    It's simple for the author. There is a Horde - it is bad. There is Russia - it is good. We are for all good and against all bad. Ours won. So, hurray. But actually, what else is needed?
    For example, here is an episode in the article:
    In 1365, the Horde prince Tagay made a trip to the Ryazan land, burned Pereyaslavl-Ryazan. However, the Grand Duke of Ryazan, Oleg Ivanovich, together with the regiments of princes Vladimir Pronsky and Titus Kozelsky, overtook the enemy in the area of ​​the Shishevsky forest and defeated the Horde.

    Why figure out who Tagai, defeated by Oleg Ryazansky under the Shishevsky forest? Horde means bad. The Russians defeated him - that means good. And who won whom and why - it does not matter, subtleties for all "liberals" and other enemies of the Russian people.
    But so, for reference to readers who are interested (others may not read).
    Tagay - the ruler of the ulus Moksha, located on the territory of modern Penza and adjacent regions with the capital in the city of Naruchad (modern village Norovchat), approximately 300 km east of Ryazan. In 1361 Tagay captured this ulus and declared himself its sovereign ruler. In 1365 he attacked Ryazan, but was defeated by Oleg. In 1368, his ulus Moksha was captured by Mamai and annexed to his possessions. Tagay himself had apparently already died by that time. That is, fighting Tagai, Oleg Ryazansky objectively not only defended his possessions, but also acted in the interests of Mamai, whose opponent Tagai was.
    In general, Oleg Ivanovich Ryazansky was a much wiser and far-sighted politician than Dmitry Ivanovich Moskovsky. He perfectly knew how to get along with Mamai, realizing that he was a shield of the Russian lands from the threat from the east from the Great Steppe and at the same time a counterweight against the threat from the west from Lithuania, with which Mamai was also in constant conflict. A remarkable natural ally of Russia with a lot of common interests. Dmitry, for some unknown reason, turned him against himself and after he was destroyed, remained in political isolation in the hostile environment of the Horde and Lithuania, Ryazan and Tver.
    And this is only one, not the most outrageous moment in the article, which suggests that the author understands the chosen topic even worse than the famous animal in the famous citrus fruits.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 16 October 2020 12: 35 New
      +4
      When I read your comments, Mikhail, I am overwhelmed by conflicting feelings - "slight envy" (well, it's enviable that I couldn't write this myself!) And at the same time ... the joy that we have smart and knowledgeable people, although not candidates of science. This is the very exception that works against the rules!
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 16 October 2020 12: 52 New
        +7
        Thank you cordially, Vyacheslav Olegovich. hi
        Although, of course, it is not such a great achievement to seem smart against the background of Samsonov, but still, your positive assessment is always very pleasant. smile
        Take a look at what Samsonov published on Opinions (Nikolai suggested to me, I myself would not have noticed), it will be fun there now. The real Sabbath of pseudoscience is outlined! laughing
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 16 October 2020 14: 41 New
          +4
          Seychas my look budet, yours-mine hotel laugh, budem laugh! Karasho said the horseman is sovsem!
    2. Moskovit
      Moskovit 17 October 2020 09: 15 New
      -1
      That is, Oleg Ryazansky was supposed to watch Tagay rob his principality? Suppose, the main thing is not to allow Mamai's gain? Have you played with computer strategies?
      So is your assessment of those events from a height of almost 700 years. This one is there. The one here. This one is smarter, that one is foolish. They cannot find where the Battle of Kulikovo was, and you famously played the political solitaire of that era. It will take 700 years and some VO reader will say why Stalin fought against Hitler. Hitler was a natural shield from Western countries ...
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 17 October 2020 10: 24 New
        0
        Quote: Moskovit
        They cannot find where the Battle of Kulikovo was, and you famously played the political solitaire of that era.

        And they found the Battle of Kulikovo and I'm not playing solitaire.
        And, by the way, it was this "solitaire" that led to the overthrow of the yoke a hundred years later, only instead of the Mamayev Horde, the Crimean Khanate, located almost exactly in the same place, acted. If Dmitry had the intelligence and foresight of his great-grandson, would not have been too belligerent and greedy, the alliance of Russia with the Black Sea nomads against the alliance of the Trans-Volga Horde and Lithuania (a kind of political sandwich) could have developed a hundred years earlier, there were political prerequisites for this.
        You should read something on the history of this period besides Samsonov. For example, A.A. Gorsky, "Russia and the Horde". It is read, in general, easy, and more useful by several orders of magnitude.
  5. Diviz
    Diviz 16 October 2020 22: 08 New
    0
    That is, one must always understand the potential of the army and the appearance of individuals. Conduct a chronology of events in history that occurred in the European part of the country and from the 9th century to the 16th century.
    But behind the scenes there is only one place - Bactria and Sogdiana. The Ottomans and Byzantines, knowing nothing, called Tartary. They climbed into the abyss. There was a lot of mind. wassat
  6. ecolog
    ecolog 19 October 2020 01: 37 New
    0
    Some kind of foot regiments, crossbows (crossbows, as I understand it), iron arrows constantly appear ...
    I read about all this a long time ago in F. Shakhmagonov's book "Exulting and Sorrow". The book is super, the battles are described in detail, but unscientific fantasy.
    There is heavy infantry, a phalanx, and crossbow volleys with iron arrows (although the crossbow bolts are not all iron). There are also fantastic performance characteristics of the crossbow, they say, the Horde bow strikes at 250-300 steps, and the crossbow at 1000 steps beats the rider and horse unprotected by armor. and due to this difference + the organization of heavy infantry was no worse than the Roman legion of the Tatars and was beaten.
    By the way, Shakhmagonov had 3 tumens on Vozha, not 6 - this is prohibitively many for a weakened Horde.
    Question - Where did the infantry come from? and why is she against light cavalry. The princely squads are horsemen with heavy weapons. City regiments are the same. Our regular infantry appears along with hand firearms.
    Crossbows ... iron arrows ... - against whom? The crossbow does not have a prohibitive range, it is just that the bolt better penetrates heavy armor ... which the Horde did not really have.
    In the field, light cavalry will not go banzai attacks against heavy infantry. What for? Either they will chop them down with arrows, or they will go around, cut off the supply routes with small forces, and the rest will go on to plunder - the infantry will not keep up with them.
  7. The comment was deleted.
  8. Diviz
    Diviz 19 October 2020 11: 25 New
    0
    Golden Horde

    Representatives of the golden horde are not hiding or hiding anywhere.
    Our problem is that we are stuck between the golden horde and the white horde.
    An alternative view of history gives us a different view of our ancestors.
    Metallurgy is a gift from the gods.
  9. Diviz
    Diviz 20 October 2020 13: 03 New
    0
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    If Dmitry had the intelligence and foresight of his great-grandson, would not have been too belligerent and greedy, the alliance of Russia with the Black Sea nomads against the alliance of the Trans-Volga Horde and Lithuania (a kind of political sandwich) could have developed a hundred years earlier, there were political prerequisites for this.

    The advance of the enemy force began from the southern territories of Eurasia: 1. Byzantium Khazar Kaganate Poland Lithuania Moscow 2. Caucasus Mountains Astrakhan Kazan.
    Men were killed, women were taken in, grief, What kind of bloodthirstiness on the part of Dmitry we are talking about.
    There are so many wars on such a small piece of land.
  10. border
    border 20 October 2020 14: 08 New
    0
    I understand that the relief could have changed in 700 years. But: what kind of fleet is in the river, several meters wide ?? With flaming arrows, it could be burned without difficulty. Where did the author get information about this ?? At best, the Leader is an obstacle for the cavalry, preventing them from attacking at a fast pace and then maneuvering.