Military Review

Sea warfare for beginners. We bring the aircraft carrier "to strike"

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It's not that this thing has 90 tonnes of displacement. The fact is that it has a speed of 000 km / h. Is always


There is no topic that in the modern public consciousness would be shrouded in more nonsense than the detection of surface targets in the open sea and a strike on them from the shore. The consciousness of domestic citizens bears distinct signs of the Middle Ages: having created a certain idea for himself, a person then conducts all his mental constructions, starting from it as a "assemblage point", and if the facts do not correspond to these constructions, then so much the worse for the facts.

This fully applies to the mythologization of naval issues. The average citizen, as a rule, hammers into his head a kind of "anchor": we are a continental power, American aircraft carriers, cans, sink from the shore, and then builds a picture of the world around this postulate. No logic is at work here: we have 10 Daggers, which means we can sink 10 aircraft carriers, period. Do wearers of "Daggers" need to see the target? Yes, you are for the Americans! There is ZGRLS, have you never heard? Why are you pouring slop on the country? Etc.

Why is it harmful? The point is that an idea that has taken possession of the masses becomes a material force. If the whole society believes that we can already beat any enemy with one left and there is no need to do anything, everything has already been done, then indeed, “to do something” will be politically impossible: officials and statesmen are also people and basically believe in the same as everyone else. As a result, the measures necessary to ensure the country's security will not be taken. And then there will be a war and everyone will look stupid again, and the fools, incited by foreign agents of influence, will broadcast that the fleet would be LOST, then the outcome of the war would be BETTER. And this is not an exaggeration, it is enough to search the Internet for how ordinary people assess, for example, the Russian-Japanese war.

Often, however, these harmful ideas are not a consequence of the defectiveness of their carriers (although this is also, alas, not uncommon in our society), but simply a consequence of the fact that the average person cannot imagine what is really behind the concepts that he is trying to operate , and if some picture, more or less close to reality, is loaded into his brain, he will change his mind.

But how to do that? How to VISUALLY show a person that the presence, for example, of an enemy ship in a given area, is not just like that, but has a probabilistic nature? How can I explain to him that if you see an aircraft carrier on the screen in real time using some kind of online broadcast from orbit, then this is not target designation? And it is impossible to launch a long-range missile on this picture?

Alas, professionals do not condescend to such things. They are not up to it. As a result, periodically occur excesses such as the elimination of the Navy as a full-fledged branch of the armed forces and similar things, simply because decision-makers, on the one hand, are confident that they are right and understand the issue, and on the other (and they don’t realize this), they simply don’t know what they are doing. It is not always possible to clean up the rubble after such things, so, for example, the pogrom of the theoretical school of the Navy in 1931-1937, aggravated by its own pogrom (softer, without shooting) in the 50s and 60s, still affects and will affect for a long time. Perhaps several centuries.

Thus, the elimination of illiteracy in naval issues is extremely important for society, but it must be carried out using modern methods. What are we going to do.

Introductory


Dear reader, so that you have an understanding of how serious things are done in the real world, you and I will do the following. We will "virtually" take command of the American aircraft carrier multipurpose group (AMG), and then climb into a hornet's nest on it - to attack Chinese territory.

And we will not just get there. We will bring our AMG to strike right under the coast, and so that the Chinese intelligence does not know about anything, at least before the attack on its radar by our cruise missiles and aviation... Insolently.

And in order to completely break your template (if there is one, of course), we will go on our ships to the place where the orbits of all Chinese reconnaissance satellite groups converge, to where, after the return of Hong Kong and Macau, all the attention of the Chinese Armed Forces is directed - to Taiwan. We will climb on slow ships into the very heat, where everything is viewed from orbit by several constellations of satellites, where over-the-horizon radars and RTR facilities operate, just so that you can see what these ships can even in our computer space time.

We'll go over here.

Sea warfare for beginners. We bring the aircraft carrier "to strike"

In this case, however, we will make some deviations from reality. Instead of simulating a real operation with a listing of all its stages and significant actions, which, generally speaking, is impossible within the framework of an article on the Internet, we will simulate actions to deceive enemy intelligence separately: first, we will analyze how to deceive space reconnaissance, then how to deceive radio engineering , ZGRLS, etc.

It will be easier, clearer and more accessible.

We deceive satellite intelligence


In order to show how the surface forces are deceiving satellite reconnaissance, we will conduct a simulation in "model" conditions, namely: the ocean is empty, it contains only our aircraft carrier group and nothing else, there is no traffic in which to hide, there are no cloud fronts, under which you can hide, no, there is nothing at all, the ships, in theory, will go like a fly under a magnifying glass.

But - a counter assumption for the attacker: the Chinese have only satellites and until they find the ships they will not raise reconnaissance aircraft. In fact, of course, this is not the case, but we need to find the limits of the capabilities of the satellite constellation, and such modeling is the best way.

Technically, detecting a ship from space is not a problem, it was done decades ago. And here, for example, a modern photo, and a Chinese one. This is precisely the American aircraft carrier group.


By the way, since we are talking about misinformation and misleading the enemy, please determine from the photo where (in which direction) this group is going. Put yourself in the shoes of an intelligence analyst. He, of course, has more data, but they are all like that. Reality is such a reality ...

We draw your attention to the fact that with a real number of satellites, the Chinese have no global continuous coverage even in their dreams: this is not Starlink, which is everywhere, the Chinese cannot deploy so many satellites to see everything, they have no money. The United States, by the way, has an intelligence network with a completely global continuous (keyword) online reach no money either.

This reservation must be made on purpose, since there are whole sects of would-be theoreticians who believe that instead of fleet you can launch satellites into orbit and, on guidance from them, launch rockets from the shore at all identified targets. It will not work, even without taking into account that the picture from orbit is not a control center. A satellite network with worldwide and continuous coverage, automatic classification of suspicious contacts, transferring them for identification to a live operator and automatic calculation of data for the use of long-range weapons even the entire “golden billion” will not be able to afford it from the coast. It is cheaper to build ten more "Nimitz" and raise air reconnaissance from them.

Now let's look at the Chinese satellite constellation in dynamics. Pressing THIS LINK, you can see a simulation of the passage of satellites over the area where we will go by ships and estimate the coverage and the speed with which the satellites pass the area designated for us for deployment. Be sure to click, since we will work with this particular simulation.

The area from which "we" will strike is controlled by the Chinese with the help of the following orbital groups:

1. A constellation of optical reconnaissance satellites, satellites Yaogan-15, 19, 22, 27. In the simulation, their coverage is highlighted in red. Only these satellites can help identify the ship due to high-quality radars, the rest simply see a radio-contrast target.

2. A constellation of radar reconnaissance satellites equipped with synthetic aperture radars, satellites Yaogang-10, 29. In the simulation, their coverage is highlighted in blue.

3. Another constellation of radar reconnaissance satellites, satellites Yaogang-18, 23, in the simulation their coverage is highlighted in green.

Broken satellites are not listed.

The actual size of the satellite coverage area may be different, and the overlap may be different than shown. But more on that later, other sizes and overlaps larger than in the simulation do not change anything, and this will be proven. In our simulation, the band captured by the satellite will be 300 km wide. Again, it doesn't matter.

So, at the maximum, all covered areas within 24 hours look like this.


Impressive. It seems the ships have nothing to do here. But immediately we note the blind areas. They are.

These are dead zones, they are not visible from satellites. If the ship passes there, then you cannot see it from space.


Areas that are not visible from satellites in the simulation are highlighted in red with a "!" the area assigned to the aircraft carrier group for the start of hostilities against the PRC

But you have to get through somehow, right? However, small areas are too risky. We need to take a place in the big one, with small ones the reconnaissance could be mistaken, the satellites can really block them. Let's mark the zone where we need to go with the sign "!" It will strike at the territory of the PRC from it.

So, knowing the orbits and the time of flight of the Chinese satellites, we enter the area from the zone that is not visible by them due to the inclination of the orbits. This is how the coverage of the area looks by the end of the first hour of the operation - not a single satellite has flown over it since our appearance. We are waiting.

An hour passes ...


Red conventional sign of the aircraft carrier at the bottom of the screen, the escort is not shown conventionally.

Second…


Third…


Above us there is a clear sky, no one has found us yet. The group continues to maneuver in the designated area and waits.

The fourth hour is over. A satellite from constellation number 3 passes in the strip immediately adjacent to our waiting area.


Now this band will not be controlled by anyone for a day. But we still have to wait.

The hours go by, the satellites are flying by ...

And now he is - the ninth hour behind, another satellite from another group slipped past - the one we were waiting for.


Now full speed ahead.

We exit at 28 knots and northwest. We have about 18 hours before the return flight of the Yaogang-29 satellite. During this time, we could have covered 958 kilometers. But we don't need that much.

And now, after 6 hours and 30 minutes, we passed the zone over which two radar reconnaissance satellites have already flown by, and which no one is watching yet.


Ahead is another strip, over which a Chinese satellite will soon fly over, and from the most dangerous grouping. And so, at the end of the 20th hour of the operation, he flies over the area.


The arrow shows the path of the transition to the area that cannot be viewed from satellites. During the passage of satellite capture bands, there will be no satellites above them

Now again, full forward - we go to the north-west, into the blind zone. We have almost a day to get there, and during this day the aircraft carrier group will not fall under any satellite. When they make the next loop and again find themselves over the area, we will no longer be there. On the way, we will have to "skip" one more satellite, and this is not a problem.

52 hours have elapsed since the start of the operation, we went into an area not viewed by satellites, from where the planes normally reach the coast, over which no satellites are flying.

Moreover, the attentive reader will easily see other options for entering the designated area - faster and easier.

The distance from our AMG to the coast in the designated area is about 500 km, having planned a withdrawal after a series of attacks, the time, course and speed during which also correspond to the satellite flight schedule, we begin to raise the air group to strike. Meanwhile, ships with missile weapons prepare to launch cruise missiles at targets. We need an "alpha strike" - a blow with all our might, so that the Chinese will become really bad, and therefore everything that we have will be used.

Let's ask a question: what has the Chinese satellite reconnaissance seen and continues to see all this time in the empty ocean? The answer is that all this time she was watching this picture.


At the same time, the Chinese even have their own "Dagger" in our introduction - like this.


But they do not even suspect that there is a target for him, and so on until the airfield with these N-6 turns into a branch of hell.

Slow clumsy ships have done everything again.

If someone is jarring from the victory of the American aircraft carriers, no question, you can use the same methods to play back the Zircon strike from the Project 23350 frigates and the upgraded Project 1155 BODs at the San Diego and Kitsap naval base (Bangor-Bremerton). This is not fundamental, the deception of the satellite constellation is possible and will be carried out equally by everyone - but only if the attacking side is really ready to act this way, if it trained properly, learned to fight "in a real way," in Lenin's way. At the same time, the endless stupid maxims that we cannot create a larger fleet than the American one will disappear. We can't, yes. And it is not necessary.

Americans have shown us such things more than once in the past. Are they ready to act this way now is an open question, their IUDs are also undergoing a certain degradation, but they at least have such experience.

A bit of reality


What would affect the effectiveness of real satellite reconnaissance, and not our simulation? Capture band. It can be more than in the interactive diagram used above.

But it can be solved. The fact is that the data on the swath can be obtained even in peacetime. You can even use your own engineers and designers to reverse-engineer enemy satellites, how to develop them yourself, starting from the available intelligence. There is nothing special in this approach: the Americans did this, however, not with satellites, but with anti-ship missiles. During the Cold War, they collected more than 2 million fragments of Soviet anti-ship missiles from the seabed at the Pacific Fleet training grounds and, based on the results of their study and the available intelligence information about our missiles, they developed their homing systems so that later, understanding how our missiles are working, to create effective jamming complexes.

There is no reason why something like this could not be done with satellites: the enemy has no wreckage, but intelligence is there.


Cameras of the optical reconnaissance satellite "Gaofen-1", it did not get into the simulation, the orbit does not match. Knowing these angles of installation, understanding optics, knowing the height of the satellite's flight over the Earth, it is always possible to predict what width of the strip it can shoot

In addition, it is possible to provoke the defending side to various reconnaissance operations, appearing in different areas, about which it is necessary to understand whether the defender sees them or not, and from the time of the change in the nature of the radio exchange in his networks, from the reaction time of his forces and other signs to find out whether he sees his satellite intelligence are the forces that provoke him or not. All this is decided in advance, in peacetime.

The risks of error, of course, will never disappear, but such is the war. The chances that the satellites will be able to deceive in this way are great, and they repeatedly "bypassed" the Soviet "Legend".

What happens if satellite acquisition bands and overlap between different constellations leave no blind spots at all? Nothing much will change: knowing the time of flight of satellites of different constellations, the attacking side will maneuver between the capture lanes in such a way as to move from one strip to another immediately after the satellite's passage.

And this was done too.

What else is missing from the simulation? Clouds are not included. And this already works not for the defending side, but for the attacking one.

Any sailor knows that it is meteorologists who are the first to be included in the planning of any operation and are also the first to speak at the military council, because the weather is still decisive in the actions of the fleet, and in the actions of the aviation, the fleet - especially.

And when planning such raids, cloud fronts always matter. Clouds are still an obstacle for optical reconnaissance satellites. Shooting in ranges other than the visible range does not separately allow classifying targets, the same "Gorshkov" in many cases will simply be invisible when trying to detect it in the infrared range. This also applies mainly to modern western ships.

That is, cloud fronts remain a reliable shelter from some of the satellites - in our case, a third of the “paths” between which we were maneuvering to strike at China would “fly out” from the simulation.

Another problem is the Gaofen-4 satellite, which is not shown in the simulation, a geostationary optical reconnaissance satellite with a huge coverage area, "hanging" over Singapore. Its capabilities allow us to film the entire area in which we operate. It is assumed that its field of view is 400x400 km, and its resolution is 50 meters. Video filming is possible. In theory, a ship the size of an aircraft carrier can be detected with this satellite if the desired area is captured. But there are ways to divert attention to yourself by simply deploying the Evazi-AMG from a multipurpose landing craft and several smaller ships and "substituting" it for observation. Then the resources of this satellite, apparently, will be occupied. Plus the clouds, and you can take care of Gaofen-4, although nothing can be guaranteed, war is a risk.

All? In the case of China and the specified area, yes.

Absolutely not. In theory, an adversary like China could have radio intelligence satellites. Russia, for example, has them. And it is also necessary to “turn them off” from the search.

How to trick RTR satellites? The answer is what is well known in all fleets of all countries. What we have in the RF Armed Forces is called "Radio-technical camouflage"and the Americans have Emission control, EMCON.

And the same methods make it possible to deceive not only electronic intelligence satellites, but also RTR in general.

We bypass electronic intelligence, including satellites


Fast forward to the year when the Americans for the first time openly and without hiding, using the above (and not only) methods, clicked on the nose of the USSR Navy: 1982, autumn, NorPacFleetex Ops'82 exercises, in Russian: "Naval training operations" Pacific North 82 " ...

Recall that then, in the early 80s, America began to unwind the "cold war" and bring it to the pace that the USSR later could not stand, and naval pressure was the most important part of these efforts, and it was carried out during such "exercises" ...

In September 1982, the Americans, having substituted the Navy under the supervision of the AMG Enterprise, simultaneously secretly deployed the second AMG Midway and were able to hide this group from the intelligence of the Pacific Fleet on the transition from the naval base to the area of ​​several hundred kilometers from Kamchatka. In the last days, before the main slap in the face, the Americans put Midway under surveillance in such a way as to make our intelligence feel that it was in fact the same Enterprise that we watched continuously. In the end, AMG Enterprise also broke away from observation, merged with AMG Midway, forming an aircraft carrier formation of a huge force and starting to practice a massive airstrike on Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky - and only then they were found.

But after the discovery, the Americans again broke away from tracking, the departure of the naval missile-carrying aviation to designate the strike fell to nowhere, after which they calmly walked along the Kuriles to the south, using the aircraft carrier's ability to raise aircraft against the wind, invaded Soviet airspace when our interceptors could not take off because of the wind over the runway, and calmly went to the Tsugaru Strait to continue the festival near Primorye. There, of course, they were already expected.

More or less detailed events described by Rear Admiral V. Karev in the famous essay, those interested can assess what happened, but with two amendments: Karev, apparently, confuses the forces with which the Americans were met in the Sea of ​​Japan, which is understandable (the case was long ago).

But what Karev "confuses", apparently deliberately, is how the air reconnaissance worked. In his essay, the scouts intercepted at night by the Phantoms from the Midway did not attach any importance to the type of aircraft (the Enterprise had only Tomkats), which in reality not simply could not have been, but it was not at all: the type of aircraft was a reconnaissance sign, for which aerial reconnaissance was hunting, and it was after the Americans showed our Phantoms, at the Pacific Fleet, that they realized that the Midway, which they could not find, was nearby. The Americans, by the way, confirm this.

But about aerial reconnaissance later, but for now - about radio-technical camouflage.

One of the participants in that operation, American carrier pilot Andy Pico, much later described these events from the American side in the article "How to hide an aircraft carrier." The original is in English, but there were enthusiasts on the Russian Internet who translated it. All text is here, the link to the original is in the same place, and we are interested in this fragment.

The main question is: how to hide the strike group at sea? The answer (in very general terms) is: don't tell your opponent where you are.
And this answer is not at all as ridiculous as it seems.

Let us illustrate the issue with the following example.

In the middle of the night, two football teams gather in the stadium, each on its own goal line. All substitutes on each team have guns, and all players on the field have pistols. All weapons used are equipped with a flashlight attached to the muzzle. The quarterback carries a warning light with him.

Now turn off the lights and plunge the stadium into complete darkness.

And who dares to light their flashlight first?

Now, to make the situation more naval, we will also move the audience from the stands to the field, distributing them more or less evenly. Above the field, we will hang two balloons, one for each team, equipped with signal lights and binoculars.

Obviously, in our model, light will play the role of both communication and detection means. The eyes of the participants play the role of RER, electronic support and electronic intelligence, as well as radars.

It is also obvious that if you want to remain unnoticed, then the best way is to move quietly and blend in with your surroundings.

...

The strike team moves to their theater of action in an atmosphere of complete radio silence. At the same time, the formation of the ships of the strike group is distributed over the area so that no system is able to identify the group simply by construction (in particular, for example, for example, why strict, dense structures, so beloved at parades, are never used in practice). For the strike group, wide-range search systems are especially dangerous, so that the enemy's reconnaissance means are blocked either by a complete lack of sensory information for them, or by disinformation, or by providing them with truthful information with some critical edits that completely distort the picture. For example, the enemy's RER means are guided by radiation detection. Therefore, the main way to avoid them is to radiate as little as possible.

...

On one stormy night, a man was washed overboard when the ships were operating just 200 nautical miles (approximately 360 km) from Soviet airfields in the Kuril Islands. Despite the takeoff of the rescue helicopters, an active search by several ships and voice transmissions in the UHF range, the entire successful rescue operation went completely unnoticed by the Russians, because at that moment all the Russian observation systems were over the horizon. Not a single satellite raised an alarm. The strike group proceeded unnoticed.

The strike team has reached its designated position, while the opponent did not even suspect that it was somewhere within a radius of two thousand miles from him. At this stage, limited air operations were undertaken in an environment of complete radio silence from the aircraft. Deck aircraft took off in complete silence and carried out operations, keeping below the radio horizon for the opponent's air defense, which were only 200 miles away. AWACS aircraft performed passive flights.

At the designated position, "mirror air strikes", that is, training strike missions aimed at 180 degrees from the real target, were carried out. And again, without any active means of communication. The entire cycle - takeoff, impact, return - was carried out during NORPAK 82 in complete radio silence. For four days, the planes delivered “mirror strikes” against Petropavlovsk and submarine bases in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, while remaining unnoticed. All day, every day AWACS planes patrolled in passive mode. All ships carried out intensive scanning by passive methods. In the event of a real conflict, the enemy, of course, would have guessed about the presence of the AUG after the first strike, as soon as he could get out from under the ruins of his bases and airfields. But this was an exercise, and the fleet continued to train in silence.

NORPAK 82 is an excellent example of a strike force camouflage in the ocean. During the exercise, the strike group operated for four days within reach of the opponent's strategic targets and remained unnoticed.

Currently, the ability of US Navy ships to operate in a completely passive mode, receiving tactical information from other sources, has been significantly improved. All ships and aircraft are united into a single network that allows the exchange of tactical information. If someone in the navy or space forces sees a target, everyone else sees it. With proper training and competence, a battleship can sail all six months (the duration of a standard campaign - approx. Transl.), Without turning on sensors and communications, and only listening to what others transmit.

...

As before, one of the main problems with finding a target is figuring out which of the surface contacts you have noticed is your target. Most passive methods involve the use of radars and target communication systems for this purpose, but they rely on the assumption that the target itself is emitting something. Do not emit anything, and the only way to identify you for the enemy is to get close to the distance of visual detection.

Let's recall the original model. Two football teams with pistols and flashlights on a darkened field, where their fans are also standing. Who dares to turn on the flashlight first?

The US Navy has the added benefit of networked communications; if someone in the US Navy (ships, aircraft, coastal bases and spacecraft) sees the target, then everyone else immediately receives the same information. That is, a combat unit can operate in an environment of complete radio silence and receive an idea of ​​the situation from other units. This opens up a wide field for misinformation and setting traps.

If the opponent starts an active search using his own radars, then by doing so he gives out his location, declaring who he is and where he is to the whole region. Deck fighters can strike it without even turning on their own radars until the last moment.


Do not radiate, and RTR, RER and everyone else will not see you. I must say that our sailors perfectly mastered these methods and in the same way went to the distance of a missile salvo at the Americans in secret.

A little later, when we get to target designation, this issue will be considered in more detail, for now we will restrict ourselves to the statement that “walking without emitting” is not just something theoretically possible, it is something that has been repeatedly practiced in practice (successfully) and they , and we have. The Chinese seem to be working out too.

Thus, the RTR will simply have nothing to detect. Neither satellites (for example, our "Liana"), nor ground posts, nor RZK. The ship group does not radiate.

But, the inquisitive reader will ask, do coastal radars emit something? Go and see an aircraft carrier, and even with a group?

We cheat radar facilities


Another mythologized means are over-the-horizon radars (ZGRLS). The rushing brain of a man with an anchor in his head is looking for something to calm his psyche, something to believe that a magic system that allows you to find a target from a chair in a warm bunker and send an anti-ship ballistic missile (MiG- 31K with "Dagger", the mythical ultra-long-range version of "Caliber" ... write your own) can exist in the real world. To admit that the real world is complex and very dangerous, a person with a weak psyche cannot, he does not want to live in a complex and dangerous world and is trying to come up with a plausible fairy tale for himself. At a certain moment, ZGRLS become part of this fairy tale, which will immediately detect an enemy aircraft carrier (for some reason they never remember about cruisers and destroyers), as soon as it “appears” (the question of where it appears is no longer fit into the RAM of such a contingent) and that's when ...

A bit of realities.

ZGRLS operates on signal reflection from the ionosphere and, as a result, has an error in determining the coordinates and parameters (elements) of target movement. The greater the number of signal reflections from the ionosphere, the higher this error, and at a certain moment such a reconnaissance method simply loses its practical significance.


As a result, when working on surface targets, the ZGRLS data are of practical importance no further than 300-500 km. At the same time, one must understand that it is impossible to use weapons according to the data from these stations: they simply give an approximate target position and that's it.

Long-range skywave radars exist, but their target detection range is limited to a few hundred kilometers.

In line-of-sight mode, ZGRLS detects air targets, and quite accurately. It is also impossible to shoot at these data, but with the detection of air targets, everything is much easier than with surface targets. This is especially true for long-range radars that work ONLY against air targets, for example, the well-known radar type 29B6 "Container", capable of detecting and mainly capable of recognizing (for example, distinguishing a ballistic missile from an aircraft) aerial targets at great distances.

But we have a surface goal ...

This is how Rosoboronexport portrays opportunities Radar "Sunflower"... This is an export option, the option for domestic aircraft is apparently better, but physics cannot be fooled, and it cannot be better at times.


If we could visualize the difference between what information we would like to receive from the OGRLS, and what information the OGRLS actually gives us, then it would look like this.

This is what we dream about.


This is what you want: an accurate classification of the type of object, its course and speed in real time. And you can send some ultra-long-range anti-ship missiles to it, having calculated the data for firing before that

But this, in the first approximation, we actually have: the ship is somewhere inside the quadrangle, neither its type, nor its course, nor its speed are determined.


Large surface contact, type, course, speed unknown, exact coordinates too

Moreover, the very area where the target is located, in reality, is not at all a quadrangle, it is rather a spot on the map, and the position of the ship inside this spot is estimated by the theory of probability. Accurate visualization would be something like this.


Aircraft carrier Rorschach. Boundaries of the "spot" - an area outside of which the probability of finding the observed radar target is negligible. Inside the "mark" is different from negligible, the color gradient symbolizes the probability distribution of the object being inside the mark, the linear dimensions of the "mark" are measured in the lengths of the target or tens of its lengths. But this is all inaccurate. Other information cannot be obtained from the mark on the OGRLS screen

It is this kind of information that can be pulled out of the mark on the ZGRLS screen, and nothing else. Over time, it will become clear where the target has been moving all this time, by the displacement of the mark, but it is impossible to use weapons on such signals.

Further we, of course, will operate with frames, so as not to complicate. What if there are multiple goals? Then our blotted frames are superimposed on each other.


Now we still admit, at least for sure, albeit inaccurately, but the ZGRLS target - the aircraft carrier group - will be discovered. Provided that it comes closer than 500 km to the antennas. And if not?

The second point is the following: even if the AMG comes close, then in the real world there will be a lot of frames on the ZGRLS screen.

This is what the traffic looks like in the area from where "our" AMG struck China.


And the coordinates of each "target" ZGRLS will give us with an error. That is, there will be a "frame" around each contact. In addition, this image only shows vessels that have an AIS terminal enabled. It is widely known that, for example, fishermen turn it off during fishing, so as not to "shine" the fishing spots. Tankers with Venezuelan oil, North Korean bulk carriers, smugglers and many others also go without AIS. So there will actually be more goals.

In turn, the enemy's warships may have a fake AIS terminal, which is turned on or off according to the situation, and the enemy's cyber command can simply “put” the AIS at the stage of the operation: remember that the whole naval command is engaged in cyber warfare in the US Navy - 10th Navy Fleet. Confusing the defender in such a situation can be very serious.

Outside of communication with the AIS, if suddenly the attacking side needs to enter the zone where the coastal radars will detect it in order to carry out a combat mission, you can go "from the opposite". You can pre-enter a dozen small auxiliary vessels into the area, which, on command, will simply set false targets or fields of false targets - inflatable corner reflectors, and will even tow these fields, creating the appearance of an aircraft carrier and its escort.

As a result, in conditions where it is impossible to avoid the detection of an aircraft carrier group using over-the-horizon radar, one can instead create the impression on the attacked side that everything is simply teeming with aircraft carriers. He will see on the screens dozens of aircraft carrier groups moving in different directions, and satellite reconnaissance and RTR will show that there is nothing. Contacts can be "inflated" and forty pieces.


Inflatable corner reflector. They can be displayed individually or in "fields", mounted on floating craft, including unmanned vehicles, towed, etc.

And then there are the means of electronic warfare - electronic warfare, which significantly complicate the detection of targets and their classification and may be outside the battle formations of the advancing aircraft carrier group.

In such conditions, the defending side has no other option but to check each "contact" by aerial reconnaissance, or, if there are still suspicions that the enemy is preparing an attack from outside the ZGRLS operation zone, to weed huge areas with aerial reconnaissance - at random, without prior detection of the enemy by other means.

But aerial reconnaissance can also be fooled.

We deceive aerial reconnaissance


During the aforementioned raid of American aircraft carriers on Kamchatka in 82, aerial reconnaissance was working and the American aircraft carrier group was being discovered. But then she lost again.


Cold War air reconnaissance

A word to the participants in the operation from our side (can be compared with what Karev wrote and draw some conclusions):

On September 12, 1982, the 219th separate long-range reconnaissance aviation regiment of Tu-16R reconnaissance aircraft was alerted. Flight personnel at the control tower, in the pre-flight training class. The regiment commander, Colonel Vladimir Filippovich Bychkov, brings the situation and sets the task:

- According to the intelligence of the Pacific Fleet in the San Diego area, off the west coast of the United States, the formed aircraft carrier group led by the aircraft carrier Enterprise passed a covert southern route along an arc of a great circle and is deployed in a northwest direction in the Kamchatka and Kuril Islands. The second carrier group "Midway" on September 9 left the Yokosuka base (Japan) and secretly moves to the formation area of ​​the aircraft carrier formation "Enterprise" - "Midway". From September 11 to the present, there is no information on the whereabouts of aircraft carriers. They move across the Pacific Ocean in radio silence, with the ship's radar stations turned off, hiding behind civilian ships. Therefore, the main burden of searching for ships falls on the navigator staff and radio intelligence operators.

...

Each of the crew was slightly anxious: could they immediately find a sea target - an aircraft carrier, without knowing the exact square in the search area of ​​about 3000 square meters. km, clogged with civil, fishing and other vessels?

...

We walked half the way in complete silence. Suddenly - the report of the second navigator that he is observing large flares on a radar sight, similar to a group of ships. The slave also sees flares, but only to the northeast. The commander asks the operator what is on his screen. The answer disappoints everyone: the monitor screen is clear, there is no radiation from the ship's radars at the known frequencies of aircraft carriers. Right pilot Yuri Nikityuk left the slave on external communications to transmit the request of the crew commander Shkanov to change the echelon to visually determine the target. Two scouts go down under the clouds, the height is 5000 meters, there is flare, but there are no ships. A decision is made - to walk in zigzags, to cover as much of the search territory as possible. Found more highlights, but the ocean is empty.

It becomes clear: we were led away, throwing the bait in the form of dipole reflectors, knocked out of the way and forced to burn fuel in vain. We must understand: either the Americans are deliberately laying out a path for us to a sacrificial target - an aircraft carrier covering another aircraft carrier, which will carry out a massive attack on military targets located in the Far Eastern territories without interference. Or do they still disguise themselves and purposefully lead the scouts aside until the fuel is completely depleted? The ocean is huge, and there is nowhere to land. The aircraft commander asks the operator to look for the ship's radar. I understand that the ship station should turn on, but only when it smells of fried. A radio operator came to the commander with information from the command post that today, on September 12, a pair of Tu-16R scouts of the Pacific Fleet aviation were intercepted by "phantoms" based on the aircraft carrier "Midway", which for some unknown reason could not be found.

"Will anyone bring me good news today?" - exclaimed the commander.

The radio intelligence operator reports that he sees the exact direction of the radar radiation. Data analysis confirmed the frequency, pulse length, configuration and operating range of the aircraft carrier Midway's early warning ship station. After two minutes of operation, the station turned off, but that was enough: along the course, on the right, 20 degrees, at a distance of 300 kilometers, there was a Midway. To the right of 35-40 degrees on the screen in the same direction, another light flashed. Was it an accident or not? After five seconds it disappeared, it was not possible to analyze the frequency spectrum. The mark did not appear again. Interception by fighters is possible, they just do not include the ship detection station. The fighter's radar warning system is suddenly triggered. The commander of the firing installations observes the approach of the phantoms.

- All the same they got us, - the commander said with annoyance, - and most importantly, from where they did not expect.

He was worried by the thought that the operator was mistaken and was taking a couple of scouts to a false beacon emitting the frequencies of the aircraft carrier station. In the meantime, the "phantoms" were attached a few meters away. The American pilots, through a gleaming blister, were smiling and beckoning to follow them. Then they soared up sharply and with a right turn left to the south, from where they came. The navigator immediately offered to follow them, they would definitely lead them to the aircraft carrier.

Commander:

- Anything can be. Phantoms are based only on Midway, intercepting scouts 200 kilometers away is a normal technique to distract from the aircraft carrier, leading them in the opposite direction.

As a result, the Midway was found, and those who are not lazy to follow the links will be able to see photos of this ship taken by Soviet planes.

But the trouble is, they found it late, after the Americans had “bombed” Kamchatka, and more than once, and secondly, then they lost it again, like the Enterprise.

This episode gives a good idea of ​​how difficult it is to look for a surface target at sea, even when it is a little over 300 kilometers from the main air force bases of the USSR superpower in the region.

And here is the American view (Pico):

We can also deliberately supply our opponent with fake contacts. For example, if a patrol plane is intercepted by our carrier-based fighter, then the opponent can roughly estimate the range of the interceptor and concentrate his efforts to find the aircraft carrier around this point. But nothing prevents us from deliberately intercepting any search aircraft at a distance significantly exceeding the normal range of an interceptor - using air refueling, for example - while at the same time directing the aircraft carrier at full speed in the opposite direction. Then the search efforts of the enemy will be concentrated in the wrong area. I once did this trick on an A-7 Corsair II, refueling in the air and approaching at low altitude a pair of Tu-95s, which visually identified sea traffic. I entered them from a direction that did not correspond to the direction of the aircraft carrier, and left in it. Midway at this time at all its 32,5 nodes retreated in the opposite direction. A few hours later, a whole flock of patrol planes searched the interception area in vain, surprising the fishermen who were there.

There are actually a lot of such examples. And the keywords that are given in the article about our pilots, who then, in 1982, were looking for "Midway" are:

“The fighter's radar warning system is suddenly triggered. The firing commander observes the Phantoms approach.

- All the same they got us, - the commander said with annoyance, - and most importantly, from where they did not expect.

They are key because the USSR and the USA were not in a state of open, “hot” war.

What if the Americans wanted to open hostilities? The reconnaissance would simply be shot down, that's all. Because peacetime operations are one thing, and war is quite another.

War Amendment


Both we and the Americans are accustomed to playing such games for many decades of confrontation. Now the Chinese are getting used to it.

And these cat-and-mouse games with little or no real shooting lead to some patterns in the mind.

For example, in the above example, Tu-16s flew out for reconnaissance without fighter cover.

In the event of war, everything changes. ZGRLS are destroyed by cruise missiles from submarines and bombers even before the deployment of naval forces, satellites in low orbits can go astray, and aerial reconnaissance will have to face a very unpleasant problem.

In order to detect enemy ships not directly under the coast, after they have completed their tasks, but in advance, at a safe distance, you need to survey huge spaces. And this requires a lot of airplanes. You need as many of them as you never will.

This problem was faced in full growth by American and Japanese carrier-based aircraft in World War II: IT DOES NOT COVER. It was necessary to determine the most dangerous directions and conduct reconnaissance along them. The Americans in the Navy used the term - threat vector, a threatening direction. Often, he was simply appointed by the commander of the formation based on his ideas about the situation. Or even intuitively. Sometimes it turned out that they had not guessed, so, for example, the Japanese did not guess at Midway.

Basic aviation will also have this problem. An exception is if it is possible to attract unrealistically large forces for reconnaissance.

But let's say we have an unrealistically huge reconnaissance force, for example, two regiments of reconnaissance aircraft, which we send in pairs to search. And there are airfields, and refueling.

Then, taking into account the involved huge detachment of forces, we are guaranteed to find an enemy in the area that was discussed at the beginning of the article. We will find, in spite of all the false targets, in spite of the interference and all the tricks.

But this is the specificity of the war itself - with the maximum degree of probability, that pair of scouts who stumble upon him will simply die, and instead of accurate data on the position of the enemy, we will again get an approximate area where he may be.

And if the enemy ensures the destruction of several pairs of scouts with his interceptors, then it will be necessary to weed out several areas - and not forget about the other tasks.

And this is all the time. Until the enemy is detected, until constant contact with him is established in one way or another, time works for him. You can raise an air regiment from the shore to strike without having accurate data about the target, and having only approximate, and scouts - for its additional reconnaissance, with the expectation of an attack immediately after re-detection, which they will have to provide ... but what if the target is still not there? In addition, such actions sharply increase the risks of simply being ambushed.

A word to the already mentioned Andy Pico:

A few words about your opponent. The Soviet naval missile-carrying aviation was (and remains) very well organized and well armed. Attack air regiments Tu-16 or Tu-22, supported by Tu-95 and naval reconnaissance patrol aircraft, were a dangerous enemy. The USSR had approximately one MRA air regiment for every American aircraft carrier. If the MPA regiment took the aircraft carrier by surprise, all that remained was to lower the curtain. The aircraft carrier, warned in good time, had a good chance of survival, but with the risk of significant losses and damage. But the MPA regiment, pushing through the curtain of fighters back and forth, inevitably suffered heavy losses. It would not have enough combat-ready aircraft left for a second strike - if it had remained at all. If the rocket trap was placed on the way in such a way that the air regiment would begin to climb to the launch altitude within the reach of the missile-carrying ship, which the pilots would not know about exactly until the moment when the guidance radar would turn on and the missiles would start to explode, the battle would end before it started. Therefore, the key to striking was the requirement to identify the target and determine its exact position before the air regiment rises to strike. And this gave the aircraft carrier time to take action: maneuvering, placing distraction groups, rocket traps, ambushes of fighters, etc.

With, say, a two-hour warning, an aircraft carrier could:
- direct the missile-carrying ship as a missile trap 60 miles down the vector of the most probable enemy approach;
- to place air patrols on the defense perimeter;
- place one more missile-carrying ship in its previous position as a decoy target;
- Move 60 miles in any direction in radio silent mode.

In this case (under optimal circumstances) The air regiment that flew into the attack would confirm the presence of a target near the expected point, would fall into a rocket trap, then under an attack by fighters, and as a result would find out that the target found was not an aircraft carrier at all, but quite capable of holding up a cruiser or destroyer.


In theory, MPA attacks were to be carried out with fighter cover, and many different options were worked out to use fighters in such attacks. But in reality, apparently, with fighters would not be "wondered", especially when hitting a long range, beyond their combat radius ...

So even aerial reconnaissance did not give any guaranteed results, it will not give them even today. And, of course, neither we, nor the Chinese, nor anyone else will ever have two reconnaissance regiments for one carrier group. This is simply impossible, which means that the work of the attacking side will be much easier than described above.

This is how it all looks in reality.

Conclusion


The idea that ships are in the sea at a glance and that they cannot hide does not withstand a collision with reality. Satellites, electronic, radio engineering and aerial reconnaissance do not give a 100% guarantee that a surface ship or a group of surface ships entering the line from which the strike will be struck will be detected.

And even if they are found, then for a time sufficient for their destruction.

To shoot at a target, you need to see it, this does not require proof. This article shows how difficult it is.

And, of course, no miracle weapon from the world of fairy-tale fantasies simply cannot exist. There is no and never will be a system that would allow, in a short time, measured in minutes, to detect a surface target, for example, 1000 kilometers away, strike and strike at it. No anti-ship ballistic missiles, "Daggers" and other close-sight combat fiction will help if the target is not detected and tracked before the strike (with recalculation of the data for firing / updating the CO) and at the time of application.

All of the above should not be understood as the invulnerability of ships at sea. It's just an indicator of the complexity of the task of finding and destroying them. Detecting enemy ships at sea is an incredibly difficult task, requiring large naval forces, including aviation, tremendous efforts, high professionalism of personnel, and, most importantly, preparedness for losses.

Operations to detect warships, if the enemy is competent and knows what he is doing, are not just very difficult. In a real war, they will also be very bloody.


In the old days, when we had air reconnaissance, air refueling and strike forces, the search for an aircraft carrier and the execution of a conditional attack by the MPA or fleets in general were carried out in such hellish conditions as indicated above. The fact that our people very often succeeded in putting the Americans in their place is a huge achievement by any measure. Today, the Americans are much worse prepared than in the 80s, then in general there was a peak of their combat effectiveness as a nation, and this also concerned the Navy. Today they are far from themselves as they were then, but at least they have a much more advanced technique. And there are still many more. We are mainly focused on propaganda, and not on achieving real combat readiness of at least the available forces ...

The next article will reveal another important issue: target designation for a detected target. Many do not understand the meaning of this concept and think that if more or less exact coordinates of the target are known, then a weapon can be used on it.

This myth also needs to be done away with.

To be continued ...
Author:
Photos used:
United States Navy, SatelliteObservation.net, Three-Sixty
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  1. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 16 October 2020 06: 02 New
    -54
    Something has become frequent lately articles about AUG.
    Not otherwise, a very fashionable topic. Today's Talmud amazed me with the number of letters and variations. I'll be honest - I didn't master everything ...
    1. Pessimist22
      Pessimist22 16 October 2020 06: 15 New
      -62
      This is another fan of the United States, he told how cool American AUGs are, and why they did not write to Russia why aircraft carriers.
      1. Grandfather
        Grandfather 16 October 2020 06: 48 New
        12
        No logic is at work here: we have 10 Daggers, which means we can sink 10 aircraft carriers, period. Do wearers of "Daggers" need to see the target? Yes, you are for the Americans! There is ZGRLS, have you never heard? Why are you pouring slop on the country? Etc.
        "Mikhana" on you, comrade Timokhin, no ... laughing
        1. Insurgent
          Insurgent 16 October 2020 07: 06 New
          -15
          Sea warfare for beginners. We bring the aircraft carrier "to strike"

          Quote: Dead Day
          Mikhana "on you, comrade Timokhin, no ...


          We must start with this ...

          1. timokhin-aa
            16 October 2020 10: 55 New
            20
            This is not my level. My taller.
            1. Insurgent
              Insurgent 16 October 2020 10: 58 New
              -19
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              This is not my level. My taller.

              Instead of - " a b c d e f g h i j "-" res p u b l and k a "?
              1. timokhin-aa
                16 October 2020 11: 15 New
                +9
                Weak. Very weak, citizen.
                1. Insurgent
                  Insurgent 16 October 2020 11: 20 New
                  -3
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Weak. Very weak, citizen.

                  Actually, HOW ELSE could I answer the person, even the author of the material, who reacted to the comment: "We must start with this ...", not addressed to you at all ? request
            2. letinant
              letinant 16 October 2020 11: 55 New
              -34
              No, Mr. Timokhin. Sea battle is not a checkered piece of paper, this is just your level, do not pretend to be a strategist. Does not work.
              1. timokhin-aa
                16 October 2020 12: 46 New
                21
                You can't do that. Everything worked out fine for me.
                1. BIABIA
                  BIABIA 16 October 2020 16: 24 New
                  19
                  Everything is on the shelves, without hurray-patriotism. You need to know the enemy by sight, we will not throw hats. Thanks for the article, very informative.
                2. silver_roman
                  silver_roman 16 October 2020 22: 42 New
                  +4
                  the author, a trick question, really did not understand: why do satellites pass along their route once a day? like the speed of the satellite is such that it will orbit the Earth 20 times per day.
                  I also wanted to ask about the incident with the launch of the CD (it is not clear whose) in the Mediterranean. it was when the US seemed to be working on Syria. Then ours have not even entered there yet. That is, the Voronezh DM kind of detected a missile launch from a submarine. I don't remember the details, but the very fact that the launch of missiles with extremely low RCS was tracked from several thousand km. How would you comment on this? again, no trick and stea, I just want to understand. the topic is extremely complex and alarming.
                  Considering that the advantage is always the attacking side, and the probability that they will attack us, not us, is almost 99%, besides, the enemy has an overwhelming advantage in technology, reconnaissance, etc.
                  1. timokhin-aa
                    17 October 2020 10: 19 New
                    +7
                    the author, a trick question, really did not understand: why do satellites pass along their route once a day?


                    Look closely at the simulation - there are many times more tracks than satellites. This is due to the fact that when flying at different times, the satellite removes different bands. That is, the satellite flies often but captures the strip once a day.
                    1. Demagogue
                      Demagogue 19 October 2020 20: 23 New
                      0
                      The problem with all your calculations is that the Americans will not be able to hide the deployment in any way. For a war with China, they need to collect at least 6 aircraft carriers. Plus udk with f35, allies, etc. It is impossible to hide the deployment of these forces. Even undercover intelligence will find him easily. No one will break straight to Taiwan, they will smoothly push the Chinese into the coast. They will shoot down satellites, AWACS and according to the list. Opportunities allow. The Chinese have nothing to prevent the deployment of these forces. Here, aircraft carriers are needed, full-fledged.

                      And I liked the introduction.
                  2. Editor
                    Editor 17 October 2020 12: 38 New
                    +4
                    the rocket makes a launch slide, and then descends to the flight path. These "slides" are noticed by special equipment.
                    1. timokhin-aa
                      18 October 2020 08: 51 New
                      +3
                      Yes, but this is, firstly, already at the time of launch, and secondly, provided that the launch is in the operating zone of the enemy's radar.
                  3. Sasha_rulevoy
                    Sasha_rulevoy 18 October 2020 06: 43 New
                    +4
                    Quote: silver_roman
                    why do satellites pass along their route once a day?


                    Due to the diurnal recession, each new orbit for a low-flying satellite is shifted to the left by about 2000 km. The satellite usually flies over the same place once every three days.

                    For example, the trajectory of the last Soviet satellite US-A:

                    https://www.n2yo.com/satellite/?s=18957
              2. Fan-fan
                Fan-fan 16 October 2020 13: 23 New
                +2
                Mr. Alexey, can you tell us how to find an aircraft carrier then? But most likely, such thoughts about how to find an aircraft carrier do not even appear in your brain?
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 16 October 2020 14: 57 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Fan-Fan
                  Mr. Alexey, can you tell us how to find an aircraft carrier then?

                  He will probably search in the same way as for a tiger in Africa.
            3. Normal ok
              Normal ok 16 October 2020 11: 56 New
              35
              In recent years, I rarely praise the authors. But this article is really decent level. Thanks. I look forward to continuing.
              1. Fan-fan
                Fan-fan 16 October 2020 13: 23 New
                12
                And I thank the author, he clarified a lot.
            4. Oden280
              Oden280 17 October 2020 15: 48 New
              0
              He flattered you a lot. Your level is below the "zero" cycle. In your opus, you deliberately or unknowingly missed more than half of the methods and techniques for detecting and tracking AUG.
            5. lucul
              lucul 20 October 2020 18: 29 New
              +1
              This is not my level. My taller.

              How did I miss such a topic)))
              On the topic - obviously the author is stuck in the 80s, or whoever is there advising the author. There is no other way to explain the ignorance of modern radar imaging of the earth's surface.
              "Radar satellite imagery is carried out in the ultra-short-wave (microwave) region of radio waves, subdivided into X-, C- and L-bands. The radar directs a beam of electromagnetic pulses to the object. Part of the pulses is reflected from the object, and the sensor measures the characteristics of the reflected signal and the distance to the object. All modern spaceborne radar systems are synthetic aperture radars (SAR).
              The radar emits its own signal of a certain frequency and registers it (in contrast to optical sensors, which register reflected solar radiation), and therefore does not depend on illumination. Centimeter-band radio waves penetrate the clouds, so radar images are not affected by clouds either. "
              Here is an example of the quality of the radar image, regardless of weather conditions:
              The open parking lot of the Central Museum of the Russian Air Force in Monino. Staring SpotLight shooting mode: spatial resolution <1 m, area to be surveyed 4 km

              So - from the whole article, it is only true that the satellite does not hang over a certain area of ​​the earth's surface, but only periodically flashes the desired area of ​​the earth, at the time of flight over it.
              Regarding the optoelectronic method of shooting, I do not know how the Chinese were cunning there, giving out the photo you cited (maybe there was probably a radar method, he didn't care about the clouds)

              Because modern optical photography easily gives a resolution of up to 1 m, examples
              Satellite image SuperView-1. Venice, Italy
              1. Sasha_rulevoy
                Sasha_rulevoy 21 October 2020 08: 15 New
                +1
                Quote: lucul
                I don’t know how the Chinese were cunning there, giving out the photo you cited (maybe there was probably a radar method, he didn’t care about the clouds)


                Everything is indicated correctly by the author. The Russian satellite Resurs-P can view a strip of 1000 km with a resolution of 1 km per pixel or a strip of 30 km with a resolution of 0,7 m per pixel. Both the first and the second option, of course, are not suitable for searching for ships at sea. The first is too poor resolution, one pixel is three times the length of an aircraft carrier. The second is too narrow a swath. The author correctly guessed something in between - a strip of 300 km with a resolution of 10 m, as shown in the image. If we assume that the Chinese want to see aircraft carriers with a meter per pixel resolution, then all the stripes in the example should be narrowed 10 times. Then it will not be even the slightest difficulty to pass between them.

                Radar satellites are about the same, only their field of view and resolution are two orders of magnitude worse. Above, you write the size of the image 4 km, something like that. I think that in real life, neither photographic satellites nor radar satellites are used to search for ships sailing at sea.

                Quote: lucul
                SuperView-1


                This satellite, launched specifically for Google Maps, has been flying over the Earth for several years. And then, with a resolution of 1m per pixel, only cities and far from all are filmed.
                1. lucul
                  lucul 21 October 2020 08: 36 New
                  0
                  The Russian satellite Resurs-P can view a strip of 1000 km with a resolution of 1 km per pixel or a strip of 30 km with a resolution of 0,7 m per pixel. Both the first and the second option, of course, are not suitable for searching for ships at sea. The first is too poor resolution, one pixel is three times the length of an aircraft carrier. The second is too narrow a swath.

                  Maybe . But this is what is publicly available, which military satellites are actually responsible for this and what their real characteristics are - this is secret.
                  Secondly, if you train a neural network to detect aircraft carriers on a radar image, even with this resolution, then they will give out the location of the avik in real time. I hope you know what neural networks are.
                  1. timokhin-aa
                    22 October 2020 11: 56 New
                    0
                    Do not you see that according to the introductory article in the article, the ship DIDN'T GET under the satellite?
                    Is everything SO bad for the fans of the American Six Martyanov?
                    1. lucul
                      lucul 22 October 2020 12: 21 New
                      0
                      Do not you see that according to the introductory article in the article, the ship DIDN'T GET under the satellite?
                      Is everything SO bad for the fans of the American Six Martyanov?

                      I see in the article that clouds are an insurmountable barrier for a satellite - that's all you need to know about the competence of the author of a Russophobe)))
                      1. timokhin-aa
                        22 October 2020 12: 24 New
                        +1
                        For an optical reconnaissance satellite, they are quite.

                        And that the horse does not work for the United States, that Russophobe or what? Clarify please.
                      2. lucul
                        lucul 22 October 2020 12: 26 New
                        -1
                        And that the horse does not work for the United States, is that Russophobe or what? clarify please

                        Who constantly shits on the country - that Russophobe, do you disagree?
                      3. timokhin-aa
                        22 October 2020 13: 02 New
                        +1
                        Shit? Or reveals the existing deficiencies in defensiveness?
                      4. lucul
                        lucul 22 October 2020 13: 07 New
                        0
                        Shit? Or reveals the existing deficiencies in defensiveness?

                        Constructive criticism is one thing (criticize? Offer), and shit is another thing. In the last years of the life of the USSR, they crap on him from all the media, they just crap, and not criticized, raking dirty laundry. That contributed to the collapse of the USSR, and not in any way to strengthening and increasing the power of the country.
                      5. Lex_is
                        Lex_is 22 October 2020 13: 25 New
                        +3
                        "shitting" is undoubtedly bad.

                        It is necessary to joyfully admire any primus from the 80s, delivered to the fleet under the trademark "unparalleled modern development."
                        Each bookmark of the ship, according to the principle "we will show something in the pictures and lay it down, and we will complete the project in the course of construction", you need to rejoice.

                        And you don't need to think and ask unnecessary questions

                        So the power of the country will strengthen and increase at an accelerated pace.
                      6. timokhin-aa
                        22 October 2020 13: 48 New
                        +1
                        I always suggest something. All my articles are about that this is done, but this was necessary.

                        And we even managed to achieve something, for example, here.

                        https://topwar.ru/174057-pobeda-zdravogo-smysla-korvety-vozvraschajutsja-poka-dlja-tihookeancev.html

                        Now, please, explain why you are telling the American agent Vlyainiya Martyanov, very interesting. This is some incredibly touching link between the Pentagon and domestic uryakalok, to which you belong.

                        Got something to say?
                      7. lucul
                        lucul 22 October 2020 14: 29 New
                        -1
                        Now, please, explain why you are telling the American agent Vlyainiya Martyanov, very interesting. This is some incredibly touching link between the Pentagon and domestic uryakalok, to which you belong.

                        Got something to say?

                        You have some quirk on this Martyanov, probably it's personal)))
                        I gave you an example of his book, but as always, when there is nothing to find fault with the information written in the book, they begin to emphasize the personal)))
                        And we even managed to achieve something, for example, here.

                        Are you sure this is thanks to you? Or "The haberdasher and the cardinal are strength"? )))
                      8. timokhin-aa
                        23 October 2020 11: 08 New
                        0
                        You have some quirk on this Martyanov, probably it's personal)))


                        For any true patriot, the enemy of the country is personal. These are inseparable things.
                        You really don't understand this.

                        I gave you an example of his book, but as always, when there is nothing to find fault with the information written in the book,


                        And where did you get his book? Did you read it? It had never be translated to Russian. Stop spread BS, don't you see that you are already fcked up with all this? You had never read any Martyanov's book, it requires to have highest level knowledge of English you lacking.
                        Just accept that you made pro-american and anti-russian action when mentioned Martyanov's book as some piece of expertise.

                        But in essence - Martyanov's writing is an illiterate nonsense, designed for very stupid people. I'll even give an example.
                        Here is Martyanov's footcloth on target designation.

                        https://aftershock.news/?q=node/880127&full

                        On the way is a REAL description of the open aspects of the target designation problem, any normal person can compare.
                        And this will be quite "in essence" of the question.

                        Are you sure this is thanks to you? Or "The haberdasher and the cardinal are strength"? )))


                        Any person with an intellect even slightly below average saw in the text of the article a mention of who thanks to whom and how everything turned out.
                      9. timokhin-aa
                        Yesterday, 19: 31 New
                        0
                        Here, we compare.
                        This is Martyanov's scribble on the subject of control.
                        https://aftershock.news/?q=node/880127&full

                        And this is the real world minus state secrets
                        https://topwar.ru/176421-morskaja-vojna-dlja-nachinajuschih-problema-celeukazanija.html

                        Be enlightened, although I very much doubt that you will master.
        2. Sasha_rulevoy
          Sasha_rulevoy Today, 00: 58 New
          +1
          Quote: lucul
          блака являются непреодолимым барьером для спутника


          Серебристые облака являются барьером для РЛС. Осадки, особенно метель и мокрый снег также являются. Сильный ветер и, соответственно, высокие барашки волн создают засветку.
  • Serg4545
    Serg4545 16 October 2020 07: 37 New
    +9
    You know, I've been going to the Military Review for several years now. And I was often amazed at the number of people stuck in the 70s of the last century. Yes, 50 years ago there was no other reliable means of detecting a ship from orbit other than a huge and powerful radar.
    But now it's a little strange to hear something like:
    We do not have the Legend space system. And the existing Liana system is not fully deployed and therefore is of little use in controlling the movement of ships in real time. Reconnaissance with the help of coastal aviation is limited to a range of up to 2000-3000 km from the coast. In this regard, people conclude that it is impossible to detect or give target designation to enemy ships until they approach our borders by the same 2000-3000 km.
    Gentlemen, I want to inform you that over the past 50 years, passive detection tools have made a huge leap forward in their development.
    Let's take the notorious AUG. Radars of an aircraft carrier, Khokaev, destroyers, radio exchange, the operation of computers and electrical equipment. Well, what is the problem now to find the sources of this most powerful radiation from a distance of up to 2500 km? (And 2500 km is the radio horizon for a satellite at an altitude of 350-400 km.) No problem!
    Moreover, you can get a lot of additional information. Satellite equipment detects electromagnetic radiation and transmits information to the ground. They analyze this information and draw conclusions based on the specific features inherent in each object:
    This is a destroyer, this is a dry cargo ship, this is an AWACS aircraft, and so on. Moreover, according to the characteristics of the radiation, one can determine what the given ship is doing at the moment (what task it is performing). And you can even determine in what technical condition the radars of a given ship are.
    Some will say well, but passive means can only find out the direction to the target. It is impossible to issue target designation with only direction!
    Well, there is a nuance here)
    Indeed, this is a big problem for ground-based passive systems. When such a system detects an air target, only the direction to the target becomes known. Simply put, we can now draw a straight line that goes through our installation and goes into the sky. And somewhere on this straight line there is a goal. But how far from the installation is the target? 1 km? 40 km? 500 km? Unknown. For any moving target, you need to use weapons proactively. And in order to take a lead, you need to know the distance to the target. And it is unknown to us. Therefore, you cannot use weapons.
    But what happens if such a system is placed on a satellite? Everything seems to be the same. We determine the direction to the target. And now we can draw a straight line through the satellite towards the Earth. And here comes the nuance! After all, the target is not 1 km away from us. And not to be 40 km away. Ships don't fly. Ships sail on the surface of our planet's oceans. So the ship is located where the straight line crosses the earth's surface. Now it remains only to find out the distance from the point of intersection of the straight line with the surface of the Earth, to the satellite. And this is very easy to do. After all, the orbit of our own satellite (and hence its location relative to the planet at any time) we know with very high accuracy. Up to several centimeters. And thus, calculating the distance in a straight line from any point on the planet to the satellite is a very easy task.
    So it turns out that with the help of passive means on the satellite, it is possible not only to detect ships in any part of the planet, but also to determine their location with an accuracy sufficient to issue target designations for the use of weapons.
    Thus, passive systems have the following advantages:
    1) Huge swath. 5 thousand km (for satellites at an altitude of 350-400 km). Compared to 300 km. satellite capture bands with active radar. This is achieved by the fact that the satellite equipment simply records all sources of electromagnetic radiation and transmits this data to the ground. And it is on earth, with the help of powerful computers and specialists, that the analysis of who owns the radiation source takes place.
    2) The dimensions of passive systems are tens and hundreds of times smaller than active ones. And they are just as much cheaper.
    3) Due to the fact that passive systems are miniature, it is possible to install these systems on civil satellites. As an additional secret module. Thus, attempts by some ship to hide from the "official" reconnaissance satellite will lead to its detection using a module on, say, a meteorological satellite.
    4) Extreme difficulty in deceiving such systems. To trick a passive system, you need to know exactly the characteristics and features of a particular given system. And also how the information is analyzed in our center. And what kind of electronic "standards" of typical goals are in the computers of our center. This information cannot be obtained by technical means. Can only be stolen (espionage).


    // methods clicked on the nose of the USSR Navy: 1982, autumn, exercises //

    Ahhh. The author has passed 38 YEARS. 38!
    Why, why don't you talk about the military tricks of the Napoleonic wars !? They would be just in place)
    Once again, passive intelligence has made a HUGE JUMP since then.
    Therefore, all the tricks you described are now meaningless.
    I would also like to dwell on the author's confidence that if the ship turns off the radar, it will become invisible. I advise the author to see how much electricity a modern warship needs. So during the generation of this electricity and the consumption of energy by equipment and mechanisms, such an electromagnetic background is created that the radiation of the radar is just a drop. The only way for the ship to disappear is to turn off all equipment for generating and consuming electricity. But then he will not be able to move or do anything at all. And it will die as a combat unit.
    1. TELEMARK
      TELEMARK 16 October 2020 08: 17 New
      19
      Wrote clever and read the article is not destiny?
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2020 08: 27 New
      28
      Well, what is the problem now to find the sources of this most powerful radiation from a distance of up to 2500 km? (And 2500 km is the radio horizon for a satellite at an altitude of 350-400 km.) No problem!

      Hmmm ... The fact that at the crossing the AUG provides a level of "powerful radiation" typical for conventional transport ships passed you by. And they knew how to do it back in the last century.
      1. Serg4545
        Serg4545 16 October 2020 08: 40 New
        -12
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Hmmm ... The fact that at the crossing the AUG provides a level of "powerful radiation" typical for conventional transport ships passed you by. And they knew how to do it back in the last century.

        Respected. American ships are equipped with radars that are not installed on any other ships.
        The radiation from these radars is too specific to be thought of as civilian radar. To confuse these radars, you need to swell a lot. Well, or use equipment from the last century)
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2020 08: 45 New
          22
          Quote: Serg4545
          Respected. American ships are equipped with radars that are not installed on any other ships.

          I know that.
          Quote: Serg4545
          The radiation from these radars is too specific to be thought of as civilian radar.

          That is why they simply do not turn on at the transition. In fact, only surface target detection radars (in modes modeled on civilian ones) and the necessary sources for lifting / landing aircraft operate there, which, again, operate in modes that are difficult to decipher, not just 2500 km - 25 km.
          The main means of monitoring the environment for the AUG during the transition in the "radio silence" mode are the very passive RTR means that you are talking about :)))))
          1. Serg4545
            Serg4545 16 October 2020 08: 58 New
            -15
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            In fact, only surface target detection radars work there (in modes modeled on civilian ones)

            Again, twenty-five?
            The radar is working. And this is military radar. In whatever mode it works, it can be confused with a civilian radar only if the most primitive and ancient detection equipment is used.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2020 09: 13 New
              18
              Quote: Serg4545
              Again, twenty-five?

              Uh-huh.
              Quote: Serg4545
              The radar is working. And this is a military radar.

              There is no such thing. There are concepts of radar operating modes, and Americans are able to adapt to civilian radiation. This is a FACT, I repeat.
              It is clear that the active work of the radar of the same Hokai, in principle, cannot be disguised as a radar of a Tu-134 thread. But the point is that the Americans practically do not use radars in radio silence, and what they use you cannot distinguish from civilian radars,
              1. dragy52rus
                dragy52rus 16 October 2020 10: 50 New
                -2
                from AUG will raise AWACS at this moment?
                1. timokhin-aa
                  16 October 2020 10: 59 New
                  16
                  The text contains links in which this moment is disclosed using an example of a specific operation. Don't be lazy.
                2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2020 12: 24 New
                  +6
                  Quote: dragy52rus
                  from AUG will raise AWACS at this moment?

                  Which one? Generally speaking, even during patrolling, Hokai's radar is not so much a reconnaissance tool as a means of additional reconnaissance of targets identified by passive means.
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 16 October 2020 13: 31 New
                10
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                It is clear that the active work of the radar of the same Hokai, in principle, cannot be disguised as a radar of a Tu-134 thread. But the point is that the Americans practically do not use radars in radio silence, and what they use you cannot distinguish from civilian radars,

                EMNIP, even during the Cold War, "Hokai" were used in the "one circular search in 1-2 minutes, the intervals between switching on radiation are uneven"And the main load fell on the onboard systems of the RR and RTR and on the Hokai's partner in the patrol, the Growler.
            2. Sasha_rulevoy
              Sasha_rulevoy 18 October 2020 07: 57 New
              +3
              Quote: Serg4545
              The radar is working.


              Radars have changed a lot since the 70s. The standard method for detecting radar radiation against a background of noise is to accumulate pulses of the same duration with the same frequency content and with the same repetition rate equal to the frequency of the antenna revolutions of the system of interest. The first, second and third parameters were known in advance and were entered into the satellite's memory. If the satellite received three or four signals in the given parameters, they passed through the integrating circuit, the output signal exceeded a certain threshold, then the enemy was caught. Almost all RTR satellites were designed to intercept early warning radars. The fact is that all radars of this type were 2-dimensional (the antenna was roughly in the form of a banana lying flat), the radiation pattern was focused only in azimuth, and had a large swing in height. This was done in order to view all heights in one revolution. Accordingly, the satellite received a high-power signal. Such radars were constantly installed by the Americans along the northern coast of Canada, they worked day and night as early warnings. They were identified so that the Tu-95 could, if necessary, fly at a low altitude in the window between the radars. Only US-P was engaged in the search for ship radars, but he also searched only for radars of certain types in the same way as indicated above.

              Now to the present. Modern shipborne radars with PFAR or AFAR, this is the so-called. stagger (variable pseudo-random pulse width) -jitter (variable filling frequency for each new pulse) technology. Or what is called LPI-radar (low probability of interception). "Low" can be roughly considered "zero". They do not have a constant operating frequency, constant width or pulse shape, and they do not spin. They can work both in air defense firing mode and in search mode. In the latter case, the sky is scanned not only in azimuth, but also in height. It scans according to a pseudo-random pattern, i.e. there will be no constant repetition rate either. To remove side lobes from the sides of any PFAR / AFAR, there are two receiving antennas. Any side lobes are analyzed by a computer and compensated for by adding the phase of one or the other element as needed. Those. roughly it's a radar without side lobes. It is impossible to see it from the side; it is necessary for the satellite to fly inside a narrow 0.5 by 0.5 degree beam. Which, given the satellite's speed, is an unlikely accident. To make all this not enough, the latest APARs use the technology of spectrum "smearing", in which the signal is "disguised" as broadband noise. Those are on the "Zumwalts" and "Daring". Will be on the new Berks soon.

              With regard to radio intelligence (interception of messages), the satellites, neither then nor to this day, were not engaged in it at all. Radio intelligence was a job for the cosmonauts on the Mir and Salyut and for the Il-20s. The astronaut could distinguish by ear a military conversation from a local radio station or a walkie-talkie conversation, but how could a poor satellite do that? Now, when communication is almost everywhere digital, and the volume of radio transmissions has grown thousands of times, this is an impossible task for a satellite.
          2. Igor Semenov
            Igor Semenov 16 October 2020 18: 13 New
            +6
            Greetings, dear Andrey! Tell me, why are you retelling the article piece by piece to a person who could not read it (comprehend)? laughing
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2020 19: 53 New
              +9
              Quote: Igor Semenov
              Tell me, why are you retelling the article piece by piece to a person who could not read it (comprehend)?

              I'm sick. And for a more productive pastime, alas, is incapable hi
              1. Igor Semenov
                Igor Semenov 17 October 2020 20: 18 New
                +4
                Sick
                Get well, Andrey Nikolaevich!
        2. Sentinel-vs
          Sentinel-vs 16 October 2020 08: 46 New
          10
          That is, you have not read the article, but started commenting.
          1. Serg4545
            Serg4545 16 October 2020 09: 01 New
            -14
            Quote: Sentinel-vs
            That is, you have not read the article, but started commenting.

            Why such a conclusion?
            1. dragy52rus
              dragy52rus 16 October 2020 09: 11 New
              +6
              because your conclusion is not correct, if you look from the point of view of the author of the article)))
              1. Serg4545
                Serg4545 16 October 2020 10: 49 New
                -7
                Quote: dragy52rus
                because your conclusion is not correct, if you look from the point of view of the author of the article)))

                This is because I disagree with the author)
                1. timokhin-aa
                  16 October 2020 10: 58 New
                  +9
                  You are simply not in the subject regarding the REV of American ships.
        3. timokhin-aa
          16 October 2020 10: 58 New
          16
          Respected.
          In addition to the military systems, the American ones have conventional civil navigation radars, and systems for mutual information exchange. One ship will illuminate the navigation radar, the rest will blast around with her help.
          As a result, RTR will see one scow at the site of the carrier group.
          And this is so long ago.

          If you do not know, then do not invent a gag.
          1. Pashhenko Nikolay
            Pashhenko Nikolay 16 October 2020 11: 20 New
            +3
            Are you saying that the AUG will not monitor the air situation during the advance stage? Not ensuring your own safety? Let's put it bluntly.
            1. timokhin-aa
              16 October 2020 11: 41 New
              +8
              They will not work on radiation. Only navigation radar on some destroyer
    3. Avior
      Avior 16 October 2020 09: 18 New
      17
      You'd better read the article.
      About the radio silence mode, for example.
      And the fact that the Americans are distinguished by a huge level of equipment unification is all in the know.
      And, conventionally, one and the same navigation radar can be on an aircraft carrier or on a zanyuhan minesweeper.
      Not to mention the imitation of radiation sources.
      1. dragy52rus
        dragy52rus 16 October 2020 10: 53 New
        -1
        Quote: Avior
        About the radio silence mode, for example.

        from AUG will raise AWACS at this moment?
    4. ycuce234-san
      ycuce234-san 16 October 2020 23: 56 New
      +1
      There are ship power electric power networks of direct current that do not emit powerful industrial variable radio interference.
      In the atmosphere there is atmospheric electricity and extraneous signals (interference and natural masking, as well as information about the state of cloudiness near the ship for ship meteorologists - where there is a thunderstorm, cloudiness dissipates-dries out, etc.).
      Airplanes also have constant electric current networks.
      Now they began to engage in experimental stealth ships, and these developments will find application in aircraft carrier groups.
      The drives of ship power mechanisms are often non-electric (hydraulic, as on old battleships, steam, pneumatic in explosive places, all sorts of combined) and important yet duplicated (you can steer hydraulics, steam or an electric motor) - and a nuclear ship always has enough steam. For aircraft carriers, the key mechanism is the catapult - the steam mechanism; the steam cargo winch is also quite used in the Navy now. On the contrary, on promising ships they are now trying to transfer more power mechanisms to electricity, they are fighting over an electromagnetic catapult and even building all experimental electrical weapons and ship networks for it of appropriate power. I note, they are not afraid of interference, for example, because such modern networks can be performed on power semiconductors, and even be constant and shielded. Therefore, all the same, the main radio emission comes from working radio equipment.
  • timokhin-aa
    16 October 2020 10: 52 New
    17
    Why is this comment? The article shows the methods of bypassing all types of reconnaissance by the ship group. Why American? Because our shkolota has a fetish on this topic and I can't help but troll.

    But in essence, do you have something to say?
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 16 October 2020 19: 19 New
      10
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      But in essence, do you have something to say?

      Alexander, hi Of course there is! yes
      1. I liked the article, thanks: I have something to work on with my brains, to remember the past ... After that ... thoughts appear. (like A.I. Herzen ...)
      2. You can not agree with everything in it (but this is my vision of the problem, which is certainly important for the fleet, and correctly raised by you in terms of educational program).
      So.
      a) the "insolent" AUG Yankees will not trample on the Chinese coast. There are no suicides there. For aircraft carriers in patrol areas (RBD), tracking was always established - KNS, PLA, RZK, AV reconnaissance. it is a carrier of NUCLEAR WEAPONS, I don't think it's different now ...
      b) today the spacecraft from orbit quite accurately give Sh.D. target, and if the spacecraft is on the GSO, then tracking is provided, because through satellites-repeaters on the command post of the VKS is constantly infa about the location of the target.
      c) it is possible to shoot down all satellites, but difficult. In addition, the wartime grouping will constantly increase, the orbits of the spacecraft will change, the "sleeping" ones will wake up, the "downed ones" will be updated by the launch of new spacecraft ...
      d) about ZGRLS. The creator of the Container named the range of up to 3000 km, and the capabilities for detecting and classifying targets - up to the type of a sports (!) Aircraft accelerating along the runway ... Therefore, it is not a fact that your data correspond to reality. 500 km in range - yesterday's day.
      e) about passive control systems. Remember the old Monolith and the Sword ... But time goes on, there are already new ones. And then, nobody canceled the triangulation method. Even in the years of WWII, the Germans sank Allied ships on it from closed positions with coastal artillery ...
      f) why do you exclude the method of firing anti-ship missiles in the OVMC ??? A rocket on B12 from a height of 12-14 km sees a sight for 140 km. And if it flies like a snake, like a 109-item for the Ams, then maybe it can explore the water area ... And if it is a Petrel with its unlimited radius? (as an option). Then, the method of leading and firing anti-ship missiles for additional reconnaissance of C was invented even before the adoption of Onyx into service. Why not use them again?
      i) Alexander, you absolutely lost sight of our SSGN and the anti-aircraft divisions created on their basis in the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet. It was "difficult, menacing and odious"! - as one of the division commanders said ... There will be maybe 885M, maybe the idea will be revived on a new technical basis.
      j) you do not at all take into account the invention of the Leksin brothers with their g / a method for detecting MCs with low-frequency illumination of these targets ... And this is very promising and far "audible" with a guaranteed MC classification, with a tie-in of traces.
      Thanks for the article!
      I put the "+" with great pleasure!
      Sincerely, Boa. drinks
      1. timokhin-aa
        16 October 2020 20: 38 New
        +5
        a) generally speaking, the article is not about the fact that the Americans need to bomb China, but about the methods of evading satellites, RTR, radar and aerial reconnaissance. Regarding tracking - I wanted to write about it, but then there would be about 65000 signs that a strong overkill ...
        So there will be a breakaway next time.

        b) If the target is hit by the spacecraft. And then she dodged them. Well, it is necessary that the photo is not missed, that is, the area that is filmed must be for some reason interesting to a living person, and here the questions begin.

        c) It will be necessary to shoot down in order to win 10-12 hours, and with the hiding enemy it is necessary to solve the problem during this time, then it may be too late.

        d) The container sees far and accurately, but air targets, at high speed. And 500 km is a Sunflower-level ZGRLS capable of detecting NK,

        e) So that these systems give a result, the enemy must "shine" the radar, and if he cut them off? In the article and an example is given - AMG was completely on passive means, did not emit almost anything, only rarely VHF with low power. How to spot it with the same "Sword"? No way.

        f) I do not rule out. But here, too, not everything is simple. First, when launching a missile, we must understand exactly that this is an enemy ship, and not a neutral cruise ship, which hesitates whether to enter a war against us or not.
        And we see only the "large surface contact".
        Secondly, the OVMC turns out to be huge, the risks of a miss are phenomenal. The probability of defeat is low.
        Thirdly, if the rocket is high-altitude, then it will be knocked down, an exception is only for hypersound, but the hypersound seeker should be blind, and the sector of the capture of the seeker will be several times smaller than the OVMC with all the consequences.
        Shooting at the OVMC or NMC is for short distances, when, for example, the bearing is more or less accurate, but there are no movement parameters and the range is not very large, the target from the capture of the seeker will definitely not leave, well, it is classified as combat.
        Another point - civilians should not be around. And they are almost always there - see the picture with the traffic in the "designated" area and the example of a cruise ship.

        i) they need an external control center, that is, someone must find and maintain contact until launch.

        j) let them show detection surface targets in the area of ​​intensive shipping using this method. We'll talk there.
        1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
          Boris ⁣ Shaver 17 October 2020 16: 10 New
          0
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Well, it is necessary that the photo is not missed, that is, the area that is filmed must be for some reason interesting to a living person

          Today, a student who is fond of programming will easily write you a program that can recognize the required object in the video stream. In the crowd of visitors to the shopping center, the cameras will unmistakably identify your (yours) face and write another set of information about you in the database about when you came today, where you went, how long you stayed, etc. This infa in an impersonal form will go to marketers (my acquaintance is engaged in such sestems). They will look at gender, age, frequency of visits, time of visits, route, etc., and on the basis of this, draw conclusions about at least which areas should cost more (traffic), which ones are cheaper, whether to place more ladies' shops, etc., etc. ...
          I somehow amused myself, based on an existing python library. A few days later, I had a base of all the cars and their drivers (person 1, person 2, etc.), passing by the camera at the gate of my dacha. I knew how many times and which car had passed, which person was sitting in the cabin, etc. The data was collected and processed automatically, without my participation.
          So can't the Navy be able to force visual detection equipment to locate an entire aircraft carrier without human intervention? Yes, of course he can. In the 21st century, for such routine work as watching a video to find someone or something, a person is not needed.
          1. timokhin-aa
            18 October 2020 08: 55 New
            -1
            Today, a student who is fond of programming will easily write you a program that can recognize the required object in the video stream.


            For now, there are no such schoolchildren, we have what we have - here it seems that somewhere they gave an example of a photo of a Chinese aircraft carrier, which the Americans found in their archives three months after it was taken.
            1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
              Boris ⁣ Shaver 18 October 2020 14: 57 New
              -2
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              like somewhere they gave an example of a photo of a Chinese aircraft carrier, which the Americans found in their archives three months after it was taken

              This situation seems rather unusual to me. Man has always tried on his advanced technologies at once on the possibility of destroying another person with their help. Today, technical vision is no longer used by the lazy, I cannot understand why the military is so passive in this matter? To create a technically mega-complex launch vehicle, launch a technically complex satellite with it, and then throw 90% of the information obtained with it into the trash. How is that?
              1. timokhin-aa
                19 October 2020 21: 56 New
                0
                All these satellites and systems for their control, storage and transmission of data began to be created quite a long time ago. Then there were simply no algorithms capable of distinguishing an aircraft carrier from a non-aircraft carrier by a muddy photo.
                Over time, this may appear, but we also need to have enough computing power.
      2. Sanichsan
        Sanichsan 16 October 2020 21: 30 New
        +2
        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
        Even in the years of WWII, the Germans sank the ships of the Allies on it from closed positions with coastal artillery ...

        cooler! with 308mm Russian cannons, suppressed by the White Guards and captured by the Germans in France, having installed them on the British Isles as coastal artillery, they shot down planes with the help of radar!
        1. mvg
          mvg 18 October 2020 02: 37 New
          +3
          using the radar to shoot down planes!

          Hopefully a direct hit? Armor-piercing? 308 mm is that for sure? Was it screwed into the anti-aircraft gun carriage? And with what accuracy did the radar show? +/- 50 km? Or did you mean at the airfield?
          Yes, on 305 mm (12 "/ 40) Obukhov guns, mod 1895, only 2 types of shells. By air, there is simply no way, at all. laughing
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Sanichsan
            Sanichsan 19 October 2020 00: 24 New
            +1
            Quote: mvg
            Hopefully a direct hit? Armor-piercing? 308 mm is that for sure? Was it screwed into the anti-aircraft gun carriage? And with what accuracy did the radar show? +/- 50 km? Or did you mean at the airfield?
            Yes, on 305 mm (12 "/ 40) Obukhov guns, mod 1895, only 2 types of shells. By air, there is simply no way, at all.

            hmm .. shameful yes you would first read on the internet before screwing up so desperately laughing
            enlighten:
            https://history.wikireading.ru/42256
            "Curiously, the Germans used 305 mm guns to fire at planes flying over long distances. Determining the exact distance to the target and the direction to it with the help of the radar, the Germans calculated all the necessary data for setting a defensive fire zone in the air with five successive shots from 30,5 cm guns using high-explosive shells with remote fuses. The explosions of these shells formed a cube with a side of 500 meters in the air - one gap in the center and four along the tops of the cube along the diagonals. This method of shooting was called a "bag". It shot down at least one British plane. There is no need to talk about the psychological impact on pilots of this method of shooting."
            next time, study the question first so as not to look stupid wink
            1. mvg
              mvg 19 October 2020 00: 34 New
              +2
              next time, study the question first so as not to look stupid

              You would read the comment more carefully before writing. It was about the White Guards, which means they could actually take out only 12 "from the Obukhov plant, those that stood at Borodino. There are 5 types of shells, two types. What kind of remote detonators are you talking about ???? Miracle man.
              The fact that modern, at that time, cruisers and battleships could shoot barriers with fire from the main battery and a hedgehog is clear. Only these are isolated cases. And useless.
              And who needed it in 17?
              PS: Before drawing something, learn from the artists. For the future. Borodino did not know how to shoot airplanes.
              1. Sanichsan
                Sanichsan 19 October 2020 01: 13 New
                +1
                Quote: mvg
                You would read the comment more carefully before writing. It was about the White Guards, which means they could actually take out only 12 "from the Obukhov plant

                almost true. from the Russian battleship "Alexander III" on which the White Guards shoved off to France. there the battleships were sawed off, the guns were removed and at the time of the capture by the Germans were lying derelict.
                Quote: mvg
                There are 5 types of shells, two types. What kind of remote fuses are you talking about ????

                who has 5 types of shells? from the Russian Empire or from Hitler?
                I kind of gave a link, read the article zapadlo? need to be firm and disgrace to the end? belay
                okay, I'll help you a little the Germans set up the release of shells for their coastal artillery, including captured ones. as you understand, it was problematic to buy them at the Obukhov plant.
                further ourselves wink
                1. mvg
                  mvg 19 October 2020 08: 29 New
                  +2
                  further wink yourself

                  Let's turn on the logic, well, or whatever you think.
                  To shoot, you need a gun carriage, this is only a weapon. There was not enough radar even for the ships of the first rank under construction, read Skomorokhov's articles on how the control radar was installed on Eugen. To guide the weapon on the radar, the ships had a pair of fire control posts. Plus, each tower has (almost) its own, autonomous. The weapon must be altered to cock the fuse at the right time. Who needs it, if the Germans had Krupp + France, with unfinished Strasbourg (in the sense of a weapon from it) and Dunkirk stranded? Did he (Hitler) get these 40-year-old barrels to invest in them?
                  PS: Don't believe all the links, turn on your mind. The USSR itself ordered guns from Germany, which did not reach it. Well, veterans write a lot.
                  1. Sanichsan
                    Sanichsan 19 October 2020 21: 18 New
                    +1
                    Quote: mvg
                    PS: Don't believe all the links, turn on your mind. The USSR itself ordered guns from Germany, which did not reach it. Well, veterans write a lot.

                    hmm .. a tough case .... so the historical facts and scientific works of Shirokorad Alexander Borisovich do not need to be believed, but Skomorokhov needs? belay
                    THE USSR? that is, you could not read the article, but even in my post about the battleship "Alexander III"? belay
                    Quote: mvg
                    The weapon must be altered to cock the fuse at the right time.
                    I am intrigued! laughing and how should they be altered if the deceleration is set on the projectile fuse?
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 19 October 2020 13: 17 New
                +2
                Quote: mvg
                It was about the White Guards, which means they could actually take out only 12 "from the Obukhov plant, those that stood at Borodino. There are 5 types of shells, two types. What kind of remote detonators are you talking about ???? Miracle man.

                The Germans had 12 "/ 52 with the LK" Emperor Alexander III ". The guns from this LK were supplied by the French to Finland, but the Finns managed to get only 8 pieces. used them in coastal defense.
                With regard to shooting at air targets: for this, the shrapnel included in the BC was used.
                In 1915, bullet shrapnel weighing 331,7 kg and a length of 3,1 clb with a TM-10 tube was introduced into the b / c.
                © ABS
                "Oktyabrina" did something like this here:
                The first live shots with the main caliber were fired on August 28: shrapnel managed to shoot down a spotter balloon over the Kipen-Krasnoe Selo region
                © Vasiliev
                And "Marat":
                At the eleventh hour from the "Marat" at a distance of over 300 cables in the direction of Peterhof, a group of enemy bombers was found, followed by several more waves of "Junkers". On alert, the battleship was prepared for battle, and rangefinder posts began to issue distance and heading angle to guns of all calibers. At 10:49 am, the first group of aircraft was fired with shrapnel from the bow 305-mm turret. The shell exploded shortly, but the enemy bombers first split into two groups, and then, sharply changing course, rushed to Kronstadt.
                © Platonov
  • Proxima
    Proxima 16 October 2020 13: 23 New
    17
    Author, quote: “The consciousness of domestic citizens bears distinct signs of the Middle Ages: having created a certain idea for himself, a person then conducts all his mental constructions, starting from it as a“ assemblage point ”, and if the facts do not correspond to these mental constructions, then so much the worse for the facts". Bull's-eye! hi
    Great, interesting article, thanks to the author! good but there is no limit to human stupidity, send comments: I sold myself to the State Department, I did not read the article, but I disagree, but it must be this way and that, how I imagine it... It seems that the material is not on VO, but on Instagram on the page to Buzova. In short, there are no appropriate epithets for certain "comrades"! request
  • timokhin-aa
    16 October 2020 10: 54 New
    18
    I'll be honest - I didn't master everything ...


    I would be ashamed to admit that I do not master something, but for schoolchildren it is, on the contrary, cool and fashionable.
    Where is the end of this trend? Who will you tell later that you have not mastered one and the other?

    At least you won't throw this phrase to your wife as an excuse? laughing
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 16 October 2020 13: 04 New
      -15
      You should be ashamed that you have slipped from the comments of the article to individuals, and even touched upon the forbidden - the family.
      This gives me the right to consider you not only a controversial author, but also not a cultured person with a sense of humor at the American level - when you are already laughing on your bare butt in the movies.
      Yes, and I am not ashamed to admit that I could not do something. I am not omnipotent. And I do not step so that my trousers are torn.
      Maybe that's why I have few articles and only a couple of them caused controversial discussions.
      1. victor50
        victor50 17 October 2020 15: 26 New
        +9
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        This gives me the right to consider you not only a controversial author, but also not a cultured person.

        And why were you the first to publish the comment, saying that you could not master it? Did you want to praise the author? wink Or were they, to put it mildly, erring? request Or is it an indicator of culture? Were you afraid that humanity has forgotten about you? laughing
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 16 October 2020 12: 49 New
    -18
    I also couldn't read to the end. I read the summary part. We cried a lot - as always, there are a lot of digits and no specifics. I would like to ask the author one question - how many Chinese live in the United States and how many of them work for Chinese intelligence? I think that the terrible "Mercanian" AUG does not take a single step without supervision from Beijing))))
    1. timokhin-aa
      16 October 2020 13: 10 New
      17
      I also couldn't read to the end.


      Yes, I know that you are unable to master anything, this is no longer news.

      and how many of them work for Chinese intelligence?


      I would answer, yes you will not master.
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 16 October 2020 18: 21 New
        -8
        Better not, I have not yet moved away from "diesel-electric submarines - weapons for the poor"))) you know that impoverished Japan has laid another diesel-electric submarine)))
    2. Igor Semenov
      Igor Semenov 16 October 2020 19: 15 New
      +3
      Is it offended, you fool? So it's in vain.
  • Igor Semenov
    Igor Semenov 16 October 2020 18: 00 New
    +4
    Why blame the mirror if the face is crooked? If you do not have enough intelligence, Timokhin is not to blame
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 16 October 2020 18: 22 New
      -11
      A set of digits from Wikipedia is not intelligence yet)))
      1. timokhin-aa
        16 October 2020 22: 59 New
        +4
        What numbers?
        1. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 17 October 2020 10: 49 New
          -10
          Your article, more than half consists of the numbers that you pulled from the Internet. Moreover, the author of the article, which you "licked", gives completely opposite conclusions. Cool, yes)))))
          1. timokhin-aa
            18 October 2020 08: 56 New
            +3
            So where is Wikipedia? As for the conclusions, they are wrong there, but mine are correct.
            1. TermNachTer
              TermNachTer 18 October 2020 09: 41 New
              -3
              How?)))) Cool, reminds of an old joke: "There are two opinions - mine and wrong")))))
              1. timokhin-aa
                22 October 2020 11: 57 New
                +1
                Where are the figures from Wikipedia?
  • victor50
    victor50 17 October 2020 15: 05 New
    +1
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    I'll be honest - I didn't master everything ...

    Victory Relation! laughing Is the article bad? Or is it the wrong dancer? lol
  • Sergey_G_M
    Sergey_G_M 16 October 2020 06: 09 New
    +5
    An interesting and illustrative region was chosen, but at the same time the author forgot about submarines and submarine reconnaissance systems with which China has probably already densely seeded this region.
    1. Pessimist22
      Pessimist22 16 October 2020 06: 19 New
      -17
      You can't see them from the couch smile
      1. timokhin-aa
        16 October 2020 10: 59 New
        10
        Well, tell me how it is there.
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2020 07: 04 New
      33
      Quote: Sergey_G_M
      but at the same time the author forgot about submarines and underwater intelligence systems with which China has probably already densely seeded this region.

      laughing good That is, as many as 30 diesel-electric submarines such as our Varshavyanka on the entire coast of China, of course, will reveal any surface forces and ffsekh will sink ...
      Even with KOH = 0,5, this is 15 ships at one time at sea. Timokhin is right
      To admit that the real world is complex and very dangerous, a person with a weak psyche cannot, he does not want to live in a complex and dangerous world and is trying to come up with a plausible fairy tale for himself.
      1. Sergey_G_M
        Sergey_G_M 16 October 2020 07: 12 New
        -7
        Timokhin is right about something, but he is wrong about the main thing - the aircraft carriers are "fighting", and this is not the application of one or two air strikes, but systematic work, but one or two air strikes from an aircraft carrier can be applied without revealing its location, and then what? to leave the area at full steam? and what goals can be achieved by such a war?
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2020 08: 21 New
          17
          Quote: Sergey_G_M
          But he is wrong on the main point - aircraft carriers are "at war", and this is not the application of one or two air strikes, but systematic work, and one or two air strikes from an aircraft carrier can be applied without revealing its location, and then what?

          In fact, the hit-and-run tactic works very well. That is, first the aircraft carrier "breaks" the infrastructure (the same airfields in the area) and then, having achieved local air supremacy, proceeds to systematic work.
          This is not to mention how much such tactics can thin out the strength of the Chinese Navy.
          1. Sergey_G_M
            Sergey_G_M 16 October 2020 08: 42 New
            -12
            They will strike, yes, but there is a high probability that the aircraft carrier will not be able to leave. Yes, and local air superiority with the help of aircraft carriers can be obtained against Vietnam or North Korea, but not against the PRC.
            I do not deny that the task of detecting an aircraft carrier is not an easy one, but only until the aviation begins to actively work from it, and then salvation for it is only at a distance. Against the PRC, aircraft carriers are unlikely to come closer than 1500-2000 km.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2020 09: 09 New
              21
              Quote: Sergey_G_M
              They will strike, yes, but there is a high probability that the aircraft carrier will not be able to leave.

              And what will stop him? The fact of the strike does not yet reveal the aircraft carrier.
              Quote: Sergey_G_M
              Yes, and local air superiority with the help of aircraft carriers can be obtained against Vietnam or North Korea, but not against the PRC.

              Local superiority can be gained against anyone by disabling a nearby airfield network
              Quote: Sergey_G_M
              I do not deny - the task of detecting an aircraft carrier is not easy, but only until the aviation begins to actively work from it, and then salvation for it is only at a distance

              Why? Finding carrier-based aircraft is one thing, but AB itself is completely different
              1. Sanichsan
                Sanichsan 16 October 2020 21: 38 New
                -4
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Local superiority can be gained against anyone by disabling a nearby airfield network

                hmmm .. but from the shores of the DPRK the American AUG were forced to get out without achieving their goals. just recently ... what's wrong with your theory?
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 16 October 2020 23: 16 New
                  +6
                  Quote: SanichSan
                  but from the shores of the DPRK, the American AUG were forced to get out without achieving their goals. recently

                  How interesting. And what was their goal, which they did not achieve?
                  1. Sanichsan
                    Sanichsan 16 October 2020 23: 26 New
                    -3
                    to end the DPRK's nuclear and missile program. even could not. and in Iran, Che does not work. and in Venezuela .. approx. in Venezuela it is different. just no one could go out to sea. laughing
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 16 October 2020 23: 47 New
                      +6
                      Quote: SanichSan
                      terminate the DPRK's nuclear and missile program

                      By the forces of the fleet?

                      Do you somehow contact reality, or do you have your own?
                      Quote: SanichSan
                      in Iran, it doesn't work

                      What and who should succeed in Iran?
                      Quote: SanichSan
                      and in Venezuela

                      Who in the whole world doesn't give a shit about Venezuela?
                      1. Sanichsan
                        Sanichsan 17 October 2020 09: 11 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        By the forces of the fleet?

                        Do you somehow contact reality, or do you have your own?

                        I do. The USA seems to be too. or why did they drive AUG there? absolutely on yours from the coils slid through the floor of the world AUG to drive then just to leave? belay
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        What and who should succeed in Iran?

                        of course nothing in your reality laughing Well, what can happen to Iran in the alternative universe of aircraft carrier adepts bypassing satellites wassat
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Who in the whole world doesn't give a shit about Venezuela?

                        of course everyone. Judge for yourself, who needs the largest reserves of proven oil? of course nobody! yes
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 17 October 2020 23: 48 New
                        +6
                        Quote: SanichSan
                        drove across the floor of the world AUG to drive so then just leave

                        And what should they, the poor, do to please you? Hide behind the toilet at home with all your aircraft carriers? Does the term "military service" mean anything to you?
                        Quote: SanichSan
                        Well, what can happen to Iran in the alternative universe of aircraft carrier adepts bypassing satellites

                        What other satellites does Iran have? What Americans and Jews think is necessary - that happens.
                        Quote: SanichSan
                        who needs the largest reserves of proven oil? of course nobody!

                        Absolutely nobody. Now Madura has elegantly and effectively removed from the market an extra offer that would drive prices below 40 or even 30. If someone wants to bring down the oil price even more, then they are definitely not Americans, they are comfortable with 50-80.
                      3. Sanichsan
                        Sanichsan 19 October 2020 00: 12 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        And what should they, the poor, do to please you? Hide behind the toilet at home with all your aircraft carriers?

                        of course not! you need to drive and screw them around the world! laughing as with the DPRK and Iran.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Quote: SanichSan
                        "Well, what can happen to Iran in an alternative universe of aircraft carrier adepts bypassing satellites"

                        What other satellites does Iran have?

                        are you bad? are you delusional belay
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        What Americans and Jews think is necessary - that happens.

                        oga oga yes how many years they have been counting and everything does not come out, something is all crap. either the drone will be lost, or the mattress marimans are on their knees, snot blowing .. a clear sign that they can do anything! laughing
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Absolutely nobody. Now Madura has elegantly and effectively removed from the market an extra offer that would drive prices below 40 or even 30. If someone wants to bring down the oil price even more, then they are definitely not Americans, they are comfortable with 50-80.

                        I'm just curious where you got this nonsense. do not tell? wink
                      4. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 19 October 2020 01: 33 New
                        +2
                        Quote: SanichSan
                        you need to drive and screw them around the world!

                        You are right, you really need to drive them around the world, without this, combat readiness cannot be achieved. As for screwing up, if at each exit to the BS you change some anti-people regime, then soon there will be no regimes left. The Americans have 10 BS per year for 4 ships, EMNIP.
                        Quote: SanichSan
                        are you bad?

                        It would be for you to grunt the boyars, bring yourself into shape. The satellites, Iran and AV have connected you in some way.
                        Quote: SanichSan
                        Well, what can happen to Iran in the alternative universe of aircraft carrier adepts bypassing satellites

                        Quote: SanichSan
                        How many years they have been counting and everything does not work out

                        It turns out more than.
                        Quote: SanichSan
                        then the drone will be lost

                        This is problem?
                        Quote: SanichSan
                        then mattress marimans are on their knees blowing snot ..

                        The incident of 2016, which you mentioned, turned out to be extremely unpleasant for both sides.
                        On the one hand, he showed that the crews of American ships, albeit small, without electronic prompts, are unable to pass the simplest coastal route along coastal landmarks. That is, the boat captains, most likely, did not even have children's sailing practice. You can find a lot of excuses, such as the KMP are not real sailors, the crews of landing boats are not required to have navigational skills, etc., but these are still Navy ships. This level of navigation in the first fleet of the world is an indelible shame. Yes, yes, the rule "be afraid of a fisherman and a naval sailor at sea" is, alas, true for Americans too. If the ships were civilian, would-be captains would have been put on trial without options, and the shipowners would be with them.

                        Well, from the Iranian side it was another call that the country's authorities do not control their bearded SS men. This could not lead to anything good. And it did not, as is now known.

                        Quote: SanichSan
                        I'm just curious where you got this nonsense from.

                        You see, I am a little aware of the hydrocarbon situation, although this is not my job. I don't see much point in giving you an overview of the sources.
                      5. The comment was deleted.
                      6. The comment was deleted.
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            2. 3danimal
              3danimal 18 October 2020 17: 12 New
              +2
              who needs the largest reserves of proven oil? of course nobody!

              Ask how Venezuelan oil will despair of Saudi oil.
              In addition, the world is certainly not suffering from a lack of fuel.
            3. Sanichsan
              Sanichsan 19 October 2020 00: 13 New
              0
              Quote: 3danimal
              Ask how Venezuelan oil will despair of Saudi oil.
              In addition, the world is certainly not suffering from a lack of fuel.

              this is apparently not Soloviev, but nonsense of the same level. who is the author?
            4. 3danimal
              3danimal 19 October 2020 06: 17 New
              +1
              Once again: the supply of produced oil completely covers the demand. And now no one needs to put in extra, say, 10 million barrels per day.
              many experts still have doubts about the profitability of producing all the "new" Venezuelan oil: most of the newly discovered reserves are heavy and very heavy oil from the Orinoco Basin

              https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/1681824

              And what about Saudi oil? - It is light, very easy to recycle.

              It's funny, but now it was Solovyov who, with Ral lowered, would rush to defend everything connected with Venezuela (while they are paying for it, of course).
            5. Sanichsan
              Sanichsan 19 October 2020 15: 08 New
              0
              Quote: 3danimal
              Once again: the supply of produced oil completely covers the demand. And now no one needs to put in extra, say, 10 million barrels per day.

              and? has it always been this way? or is this situation due to a pandemic? live for today forgetting yesterday and not thinking about tomorrow? But unlike you, the US and the EU really hoped to rake in this oil for themselves, but the political and economic levers of pressure were not enough, and the military lever broke, in the literal sense. all aircraft carriers in the region were unable to go to sea request
              Quote: 3danimal
              most of the newly discovered reserves are heavy and very heavy oil in the Orinoco Basin

              and? all the same many times better than shale.
              Quote: 3danimal
              And what about Saudi oil? - It is light, very easy to recycle.

              only it is under the US, and the EU, China, the Japanese and the rest are not? oil is not needed? belay and Russia.
            6. 3danimal
              3danimal 19 October 2020 15: 52 New
              0
              EU, China, Japanese and others not?

              You can buy from the Russian Federation, or in the Middle East.
              It is more preferable with us than with mossy Venezuela, more $ in the budget. (This is such a selfish approach)
              The supply fully covered the demand even BEFORE the coronavirus. The appearance of additional volumes means that the rest will have to make room, including the Russian Federation. You are ready?
              and? all the same many times better than shale.

              The problem is to extract: after the flight of engineers and the seizure of companies, it turned out that the military put in charge were bad oil workers. And the production dropped at times.
              The problem is refining: not everywhere there are corresponding refineries (more in the USA), and it is risky to accept sanctioned oil, it may be more expensive to come out.
              And the oil shale is quite profitable at prices from 35-40 $, it is easy (if necessary) production is suspended, it is easy and can be processed in many places.
              all aircraft carriers in the region were unable to go to sea

              Remind me, how many of 10 are in stock?
              Basis for claims?
            7. Sanichsan
              Sanichsan 19 October 2020 20: 17 New
              0
              Quote: 3danimal
              One can buy from the Russian Federation, or in the Middle East.

              there is a major difference between buying and robbing. in the case of a purchase, you have to pay, and this is expensive. to rob is much cheaper. on this, if possible, they are trying to rob like the United States in Iraq and Syria, like Turkey in Syria, like France in Libya.
              Quote: 3danimal
              The appearance of additional volumes means that the rest will have to make room, including the Russian Federation. You are ready?

              ready for what? state-owned Russian company Roszarubezhneft, expanding production in Venezuela and Russia will have to make room? where is the logic?
              Now, if the Guaido scam had succeeded and an American company had been expanding production there, then we would really have to make room.
              Quote: 3danimal
              The problem is to extract: after the flight of engineers and the seizure of companies, it turned out that the military assigned to lead were bad oil workers.

              escape? capture ??? what a terrible picture you are painting!
              rams from Western companies, those that actually produced oil there (near Venezuela itself, and with specialists and equipment not very much) made a bet on Guaido, hoping to fuck Venezuela with oil as Africa with resources in the last century, but Guaido screwed up with him thrown out and those who recognized him as president. let Guaidó come to an agreement now. wassat
              Quote: 3danimal
              And the production dropped at times.

              you are not directly captain obvious, you are an admiral! good of course production will fall when those who have been mining leave. it will take a fair amount of time until this vacuum is filled by Roszarubezhneft.
              Quote: 3danimal
              The problem is refining: not everywhere there are corresponding refineries (more in the USA), and it is risky to accept sanctioned oil, it may be more expensive to come out.

              they are already being transported to Cuba and processed there. USA complained ... by again wink
              Quote: 3danimal
              And the oil shale is quite profitable at prices from 35-40 $, it is easy (if necessary) production is suspended, it is easy and can be processed in many places.

              it is not the first wave of bankruptcies and with ecology seams, but so yes ... mined and continue to mine. so there is still a profit wink
              Quote: 3danimal
              Remind me, how many of 10 are in stock?

              This region is controlled by 2 aircraft carriers.
              Quote: 3danimal
              Basis for claims?

              if I am not mistaken John Boltol explained why nishmagli. according to him, the terrain for a ground operation turned out to be very inconvenient, but with the fleet such is the trouble. both aircraft carriers were under repair.
            8. 3danimal
              3danimal 19 October 2020 22: 10 New
              0
              there is a major difference between buying and robbing. in the case of a purchase, you have to pay, and this is expensive. to rob is much cheaper. therefore, if possible, they try to rob like the United States in Iraq

              And a lot of American oil companies have plundered in Iraq? Oh, they lost the tender .. (How is this even possible, in your opinion?)
              If your chickens don't peck money, it's easier to buy. Search how much the company cost in Iraq 2003.
              As we have already discussed income: what can be compared with 2 trillion US exports? To rob, even for 10-20 billion, is a drop in the ocean.
              but Guaidó screwed up and threw out those who recognized him as president with him. let Guaido agree now

              It is called, in spite of my mother, I will frostbite my ears. Or shoot yourself in the foot. How many times has the local currency depreciated against the backdrop of a mining failure?
              it will take a fair amount of time until this vacuum is filled by Roszarubezhneft.


              https://neftegaz.ru/amp/news/dobycha/553746-dobycha-nefti-v-venesuele-upala-do-urovnya-1945-goda/

              Decades, perhaps? What will Venezuela become and how long will Maduro stay?
              How did it happen that Rosneft was frightened by some kind of sanctions? They are always useful ..
            9. Sanichsan
              Sanichsan 19 October 2020 22: 27 New
              -1
              Quote: 3danimal
              And a lot of American oil companies have plundered in Iraq? Oh, they lost the tender .. (How is this even possible, in your opinion?)

              Well, where did I give you specific names? this information is not public wink there will be an investigation, maybe they will dig up. and maybe already there. look for why the Americans are hustling there in Syria.
              but the Turks were investigated when the column of fuel tankers was smashed. you can easily find it on the internet wink
              Quote: 3danimal
              It is called, in spite of my mother, I will frostbite my ears. Or shoot yourself in the foot. How many times has the local currency depreciated against the backdrop of a mining failure?

              you know, it's better to be not very rich, but alive than just dead request in my opinion it's obvious .. no?
              Quote: 3danimal
              Decades, perhaps? What will Venezuela become and how long will Maduro stay?

              I will answer in order.
              yes, maybe a decade, maybe more. we are there now as the USA in Iraq wink and will pump as much as Russia needs to throw out on the market.

              and what should it become? will raise the standard of living to an acceptable level, so that they do not get overwhelmed and will pump oil to a refinery in Cuba.

              while Russia and China are satisfied. yes perhaps they will prepare him the Venezuelan Medvedev. request
              Quote: 3danimal
              How did it happen that Rosneft was frightened by some kind of sanctions? They are always useful ..

              Well, you read the article once the link was thrown off, not only the title. it also says that at the request of foreign shareholders. but for such cases, there is a special structure that does not depend on external factors. yes
            10. 3danimal
              3danimal 20 October 2020 07: 36 New
              -1
              while Russia and China are satisfied. yes may prepare him Venezuelan Medvedev.

              Which once again confirms the third-rate and puppet status of this, if I may say so, country.
              will raise the standard of living to an acceptable level, so that they do not get overwhelmed and will pump oil to a refinery in Cuba.

              Someday smile
              will be pumped as much as Russia needs to throw into the market.

              Driving down the price in the oil market? The Saudis may get upset again, passed.
              there will be an investigation, maybe they will dig up.

              Everything is completely open. Read about the tender in Iraq. (Note that without Hussein, it is great to make nationally oriented decisions)
            11. Sanichsan
              Sanichsan 22 October 2020 16: 07 New
              0
              Quote: 3danimal
              Which once again confirms the third-rate and puppet status of this, if I may say so, country.

              Duc not puppet then count on the fingers ... USA, Russia, China, India, Pakistan and Turkey. like everyone else request now the Germans are trying, but not very successful yet ..
              Quote: 3danimal
              Driving down the price in the oil market? The Saudis may get upset again, passed.

              what for? this oil is under Russian control and its market entry and volumes are controlled by Russia. will need to upset the Saudis, we will upset, it is not necessary, we will not upset request
              Quote: 3danimal
              Everything is completely open. Read about the tender in Iraq. (Note that without Hussein, it is great to make nationally oriented decisions)

              in an occupied country ??? funny laughing
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 19 October 2020 16: 09 New
    0
    The US and the EU really hoped to rake this oil for themselves

    How so?
    In the same Iraq, the British and Dutch companies that won the tender pay the extraction tax to Iraq, and then sell the oil on the market. Who in their minds will begin to give it away for free?
    The US and the EU are quite satisfied with buying raw materials, since there is enough money.
  • Sanichsan
    Sanichsan 19 October 2020 20: 35 New
    +1
    Quote: 3danimal
    How so?
    In the same Iraq, the British and Dutch companies that won the tender pay the extraction tax to Iraq, and then sell the oil on the market.

    this is much better than getting some share of the production work from the proceeds from the sale and refining of oil. not? you really don't want to notice that they just stole the resources of this country and are robbing it? but at the same time, what a nobility (!!!), they pay taxes laughing in Iraq! so what? great business! and oil for free and tax evasion at home. wink Are you, as an expert, aware of international measures to avoid double taxation?
    Quote: 3danimal
    Who in their minds will begin to give it away?

    the one who rests on the back of the head with the barrel of an M-16 and other symbols of democracy like aircraft carriers. request
    Are you seriously trying to ignore that Iraq was torn off so that about a million went to the forefathers and want to declare that now they can independently manage their resources? under direct occupation?
    Quote: 3danimal
    The US and the EU are quite satisfied with buying raw materials, since there is enough money.

    The United States has been able to cover its domestic needs at the expense of the loot for 2 years and is now one of the largest exporters.
    The EU has nowhere to go, but they really want to rob like the United States and fit into all sorts of fornicators, like Guaido, but they are not the United States and do not burn out request though recently, the United States does not fade either laughing
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 19 October 2020 22: 24 New
    -1
    they just stole the resources of this country

    How? Are they in the safe? They need to be mined for years, and the Dutch and the British are engaged in this. So maybe they are stealing?
    Further, the question: Exxon produces oil and gas in the United States, pays production taxes and sells oil on the market. So she ... is robbing the USA?
    but at the same time, what a nobility (!!!), laughing taxes are paid in Iraq!

    Let me remind you that the mining tax is not a 13% income tax. A good share remains there.
    the one who rests on the back of the head with the barrel of an M-16 and other symbols of democracy like aircraft carriers.

    https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/1254870
    Obviously, the Iraqi government was not in a hurry. The Americans wanted, of course, to get preferences (namely, not all the profits), but things turned out differently.
    In Iraq, the main target was Hussein himself, IMHO.
    The EU has nowhere to go, but they really want to rob like the USA

    (Do you read their thoughts? smile )
    They don't have to go anywhere. Compare the budgets and GDP of the EU countries and ours.
  • Sanichsan
    Sanichsan 19 October 2020 23: 19 New
    +1
    Quote: 3danimal
    How? Are they in the safe? They need to be mined for years, and the Dutch and the British are engaged in this. So maybe they are stealing?

    how can I tell you .... if I come to your garden, dig up your potatoes, take them and give you a hundredth of its value, and if you are indignant, I will shoot you in the head. something like this in Iraq request
    Quote: 3danimal
    Further, the question: Exxon produces oil and gas in the United States, pays production taxes and sells oil on the market. So she ... is robbing the USA?

    on the same terms as in Iraq? I never believe! yes
    Quote: 3danimal
    Let me remind you that the mining tax is not a 13% income tax. A good share remains there.

    in the EU for sure! and in Iraq?
    Quote: 3danimal
    Obviously, the Iraqi government was not in a hurry. The Americans wanted, of course, to get preferences (namely, not all the profits), but things turned out differently.
    In Iraq, the main target was Hussein himself, IMHO.

    Then why should you still hang around there and multiply your coffins? Saddam was kicked in 2007, now it is 2020. are they still killing Saddam?
    but yes, I am aware that the United States is not very smooth there, not even at all smooth. yes but initially it worked exactly as I wrote. yes, over time the system crashed. these days the colonists have a lot of problems ..
    Quote: 3danimal
    (Do you read their minds?)

    you can consider that I read wink tell me how to do it?
    Quote: 3danimal
    They don't have to go anywhere. Compare the budgets and GDP of the EU countries and ours.

    awesome! Do you believe that their GDP is taken out of thin air and that they can buy anything when they want to? belay
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 20 October 2020 07: 49 New
    0
    if I come to your garden, I will dig up your potatoes,

    Let's go agricultural analogies smile
    It will take years to dig up the potatoes.
    I will take it and I will give you a hundredth of its value, and if you are indignant I will shoot you in the head. something like this in Iraq request

    Companies were offered to pay $ 4 per barrel (which is clearly more than 50% at an average price of $ 00 in 1x), and the government demanded $ 27. Have they all been shot in the head? Not noticeable.
    The reality does not agree with your ideological picture (which means that you need to correct the latter).
    on the same terms as in Iraq? I never believe! yes

    In the USA, I think, in the region of 30-40 percent. Iraq was offered 8%, but their government asked for as much as 50%. It looks like they bargained for 30-40% smile
    Read the article in Kommersant.
    Then why should you still hang around there and multiply your coffins?

    They see that the government has no problems. The land is "hot", many are doing to seize power by force.
    tell me how to do it?

    I'll try to guess: have an ideological picture of the world in your head? (we are good, they are bad, black and white)? smile
    Tell us interesting.
    awesome! Do you believe that their GDP is taken out of thin air and they can buy anything like that when they want? belay

    What are these strange conclusions?
    GDP is taken from the huge amount of goods and services produced. Some (Norway, for example) also from the sale of hydrocarbons. Interestingly, the NWF of the latter is well over $ 1 trillion. (I wish we could)
  • Essex62
    Essex62 21 October 2020 12: 08 New
    -2
    Makaroshka's sermons read what kind of ia and her vassals are good and correct. And such, in power now, that threatens dire consequences for the Russian people.
    I don’t need to be like them (not in relation to fnb). Not comfortable for me according to their gay laws, kneeling in front of black asses and other shit to live.
    And yet, yes, we are good, they are bad. Under the current government, though not very good looking, but it is fixable. You preachers, the Western way of life, this applies directly.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 21 October 2020 13: 23 New
    0
    I do not need like theirs (not in relation to fnb)

    Try to concentrate and read more attentively in what context Norway has emerged.
    Do you believe that their GDP is taken out of thin air and they can buy anything like that when they want? belay

    GDP is taken from the huge amount of goods and services produced. Some (Norway, for example) also from the sale of hydrocarbons. Interestingly, the NWF of the latter greatly exceeds $ 1 trillion

    Not comfortable for me according to their gay laws, kneeling in front of black asses and other shit to live.

    You can add caring for people with disabilities: benefits and an ubiquitous urban environment (after all, they figured out what: there is nothing to do wrong on the street!).
    He doesn’t have much on his knees, but they like to show them, including on state TV channels.
    And yet, yes, we are good, they are bad.

    It doesn't work that way. An extreme example: propaganda convinced many people in Nazi Germany that they were good and were doing the right thing. (Think, if possible) How can you not believe when people are saying pleasant things on the radio / TV?
    You preachers, the Western way of life, this applies directly.

    You are apparently one of those who consider the current government not radical enough?
  • Essex62
    Essex62 21 October 2020 14: 05 New
    0
    And of those who consider the current government and the social system it protects anti-people.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 21 October 2020 15: 27 New
    0
    the social system it defended by the anti-people.

    And what system does it defend?
    And which do you think is popular?
  • Essex62
    Essex62 22 October 2020 08: 38 New
    0
    You did not understand? It's strange. Capitalism, with a bias towards Byzantine feudalism. People's Socialism, of course, with the dictatorship of the working people, real equality and a ban on personal enrichment.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 23 October 2020 10: 12 New
    0
    Capitalism, with a bias towards Byzantine feudalism.

    I agree.
    People's Socialism, of course, with the dictatorship of the working people, real equality and a ban on personal enrichment.

    Don't you like Swedish socialism? With private property, the right of citizens to have their own production and high taxes and social obligations?
    Real equality seeks to create mediocrity and lack of initiative, low labor and production efficiency (but everyone is at work), poor service (remember the delights of Soviet trade).
    Personal enrichment is an excellent motivator for development, the state should only enforce the laws.
  • Essex62
    Essex62 23 October 2020 10: 56 New
    0
    Perhaps, but you do not take into account the predatory origin of man. In pursuit of enrichment, the more clawed, toothy, without conscience, arrogant seeks to bend everyone around, and having achieved the result, he comes up with laws and systems limiting the possibilities of those robbed by him to restore justice.
    Swedish, like Chinese, socialism does not exist de facto. And the first and de jure.
    Because, as its main principle, there is a ban on personal enrichment. Everything else is nuanced.
    The Swedish swamp is completely alien to the Russian people, it is not acceptable in principle. And not everything there, in a country the size of the Moscow region, is so rosy.
    How, on the basis of the achievements of science and technology, to stimulate a person to creative, productive work, the question is resolved. And the work itself is being modified. The work is, of course, prohibitively difficult, but quite challenging. But for this it is necessary that the government does not "languish over gold", but is interested. Property stratification is not the locomotive of progress, but its brake.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 October 2020 09: 03 New
    +6
    Quote: SanichSan
    hmmm .. but from the shores of the DPRK the American AUG were forced to get out without achieving their goals. just recently ... what's wrong with your theory?

    M-dya ... Honestly, I don't even know how to react to this. We are here discussing the combat capabilities of the aircraft carrier, if that. How could an aircraft carrier show its combat capabilities if there were no hostilities with the DPRK?
    1. timokhin-aa
      17 October 2020 09: 25 New
      10
      Americans don't fight without diapers. And who does not believe is an enemy of the people.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 19 October 2020 01: 51 New
        -3
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Americans don't fight without diapers. And who does not believe is an enemy of the people.

        In fact, they can fight in at least three diapers. The importance of toilet problems in war is greatly exaggerated.



        I remember an analysis of one of the episodes of the Russian spring of 2014 from a direct participant in this case (I reproduce from memory).

        Sofa warriors - wrote the Russian historian - they like to scratch their tongue about how they cry, pee and poop in the pants of the Dobrobat Nazis when they see Russian tanks (well, like the Russians, T-64).

        Yes, they say, very likely. But having got his pants dirty, nevertheless, they aim ATGMs and shoot, over and over again.

        Not a single one left the miner's tanks that time.
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 16 October 2020 18: 24 New
    -2
    If the aircraft carriers are so good, then why, during the "war in the gulf," the ground aircraft completed 80% of the combat missions.
    1. timokhin-aa
      16 October 2020 18: 41 New
      +9
      So these are the advantages of ground aircraft - more bombs in flight, the possibility of forming a larger strike group, etc.

      Carrier-based aircraft have other advantages
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 16 October 2020 19: 59 New
        -3
        Sound them please)))) given that mattress makers and their allies have airbases almost everywhere.
        1. timokhin-aa
          16 October 2020 23: 08 New
          +9
          Will the ability to hit a detected sea target within an hour or an hour and a half not work? The ability to covertly (see the raid on Kamchatka) concentrate large air forces, which the enemy will not know about and which will not be tied to airfields? The ability to operate where there are NO airbases?
          The ability to simply turn the aircraft carrier in the wind in a strong wind, throw off the course and still raise the aircraft to strike, while the ground ones have to sit and wait for the wind to die down (see the raid on Kamchatka)?
          The ability to provide air defense for a ship group or convoy outside the combat radius of the base fighter aircraft? Or inside it, but in areas where its reaction time becomes unacceptably long?
          In 1948, Rear Admiral Chernyshev defined a safe zone in which the Navy could operate without aircraft carriers in the event of a real war as 300 km from the coast.
          At the end of 1991, it was already defined as 150-200 km, subject to the presence of a radar field of 700 km.

          Just in case - I am sure that these figures will not tell you anything, as well as the proposed options.
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 17 October 2020 10: 19 New
            -5
            The case with Kamchatka was the only one. The mattress makers realized that the second time would already work.
            1. timokhin-aa
              18 October 2020 08: 59 New
              +8
              No, he was not the only one. Here in the comments there is a Bez 310, his half-life work was to find these aircraft carriers, and conduct their demonstration attacks from the air, so that the Americans do not relax, ask around, for example.
              And this is only in the Pacific Fleet, and there were also hide and seek in the fjords in the North, which is also very instructive.
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 October 2020 09: 12 New
      +7
      Quote: TermNachTER
      If the aircraft carriers are so good, then why, during the "war in the gulf," the ground aircraft completed 80% of the combat missions.

      In total, the Americans sent 985 land-based aircraft and 303 carrier-based aircraft into battle, that is, 1288 combat aircraft, that is, the share of carrier-based aircraft was 23,5%. They should have done 50% of all the work, in your opinion? US carrier-based aviation, which had less than a quarter of the total number of American tactical aviation, provided 41,3% of all sorties of heavy fighters and 30,9% of all sorties of attack aircraft.
  • Hypertension
    Hypertension 16 October 2020 12: 49 New
    14
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    To admit that the real world is complex and very dangerous, a person with a weak psyche cannot, he does not want to live in a complex and dangerous world and is trying to come up with a plausible fairy tale for himself.

    “Our business is rubbish,” he began with words of consolation. (C)
    On the example of comments, you can see how difficult it is to break this "comfort zone". Some even refuse to read and begin to write about "American lovers."
    Indeed, in fact, one gets the impression that our old Earth is viewed by satellites almost through and through, and it will not work to hide from Big Brother. But, as they say: it was smooth on the radar ...
    1. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 16 October 2020 21: 43 New
      -6
      Quote: Hyperion
      On the example of comments, you can see how difficult it is to break this "comfort zone".

      Are you talking about a set of conventions and assumptions and ignoring certain aspects that fill the article?
      very similar in style to Rizun, and in value yes
      1. Hypertension
        Hypertension 16 October 2020 23: 04 New
        +7
        In principle, I’m talking about shabby sentiments. You can find out from the Armenians about the consequences of a frivolous attitude towards the enemy.
        1. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan 16 October 2020 23: 20 New
          -7
          Quote: Hyperion
          You can find out from the Armenians about the consequences of a frivolous attitude towards the enemy.

          and a serious relationship is this this article? Are you seriously??? belay that is, you are from the “Zveszda” hats with its “unparalleled” and all-pervading Timokhin with his owl pulling on the globe (otherwise I cannot characterize the distortion and disregard of a number of obvious factors in his article), did you choose “all wasted? are you excited by horror and humiliation?
          tell me, have you tried a realistic view of the situation? Well, how does this not happen in theoretical fantasies but in the real world? Well, there, for example, will you get acquainted with the history of how an American aircraft carrier was escorted by Chinese destroyers? recently. found for some reason ... or read about the defeat of the PQ-17. or even better! take advantage of modern technology! I suggest how wink right-click on the screen with the coverage of Chinese satellites (in the article), select "find a picture in google". followed by a bunch of repetitions of the author's fantasy in different publications and at the end of the original source, an article about the Chinese satellite constellation. you will probably be very surprised, but the conclusions of the article are completely opposite to those of Timokhin. and this is just one of the detection methods that is almost impossible to bypass.
          1. Hypertension
            Hypertension 17 October 2020 13: 18 New
            +6
            Quote: SanichSan
            and a serious relationship is this this article?

            This article is modeling on the topic. It also says:
            In this case, however, we will make some deviations from reality. Instead of imitating a real operation with a listing of all its stages and significant actions, which, generally speaking, is impossible within the framework of an article on the Internet, we will carry out Modeling actions to deceive enemy intelligence separately

            This is not about "everything is lost." It's about "question everything." It is better to overestimate the enemy than to underestimate.
            Yes - assumptions. Yes - simplifications. How else? You cannot describe everything in one article, even one as large as this one, and the average person in the street will not understand.
            1. Sanichsan
              Sanichsan 17 October 2020 15: 05 New
              -5
              Quote: Hyperion
              Yes - assumptions. Yes - simplifications. How else? You cannot describe everything in one article, even one as large as this one, and the average person in the street will not understand.

              assumptions? simplifications ????
              I really hope that you are one of the sincerely mistaken ...
              let's take a look at these assumptions.
              the first part, satellites between which Timokhin deftly maneuvers on his AUG. does nothing bother you? these strips with the same rectangles ... no?
              well, suppose these identical rectangles are the place where the satellite is looking according to the author's assurances, but why do they all look for themselves? they have, as it were, the coverage area of ​​this whole region, each one. the fact that satellites are not tracking the target is this assumption? Why are they in this simulation at all? to show that there are satellites, here is an aircraft carrier and oppa! shout something like "But they don't even suspect that there is a goal for him, and so on until the airfield with these N-6 turns into a branch of hell.

              Slow clumsy ships have done everything again. "
              how is that? yes satellites do not track targets. Well, what, the assumption is the same. and the technical capabilities of 1982 to pull on modern China from which the modern USA piss with boiling water? is this also an assumption? what does this simulation show? what if the Chinese defense is drunk for several days, an aircraft carrier can sail because no one is tracking it anyway?
              forgive me, but this even the second round of the Millennium Challenge has surpassed the campaign. Why then take the Asian region at all? let Africa be. but not. attic. Chinese satellites and Africa covers, and the entire Atlantic. Well, I do not know. work hard and find a place without companions. what's the point in this strange farce in particular ??? Why did you stop at the drunken defense and the equipment suddenly stuck in the 80s? it was necessary to burn to the end! napalm! with Arkilian cruisers, Nibiru landings and Reptilian amphibious assault! wassat
              sorry, after 40 years of radar, which has not changed due to the previous laws of physics, I cannot seriously talk about this ... this is not about you ...
              1. Hypertension
                Hypertension 17 October 2020 16: 48 New
                +1
                Quote: SanichSan
                satellites between which Timokhin deftly maneuvers on his AUG. does nothing bother you? these strips with the same rectangles ... no?

                Usually satellites map the surface of the Earth. Why should this bother me?
                https://vk.com/wall-168800712_197519
                Quote: SanichSan
                they kind of cover the whole region

                1. The comment was deleted.
                  1. Hypertension
                    Hypertension 19 October 2020 12: 50 New
                    +2
                    Quote: SanichSan
                    if you don't know what the coverage area is

                    Your link about the radio signal coverage area. As for the optical characteristics of the satellites, if you have not watched the video in my commentary, then the "coverage area" is distributed as follows: either a large area with low detail, or a small area with high detail. Have you ever looked through a telescope, binoculars or a microscope? The higher the magnification, the smaller the angle of view. The laws of optics, after all.
                    Quote: SanichSan
                    here Timokhin ran into an adequate audience

                    Do you think VO has an inadequate audience?
                  2. Sanichsan
                    Sanichsan 19 October 2020 21: 03 New
                    0
                    Quote: Hyperion
                    Your link about the radio signal coverage area.

                    JB7 optical group. see picture with coverage areas.
                    JB9 optical group. see picture with coverage areas.
                    Quote: Hyperion
                    As for the optical characteristics of satellites, if you have not watched the video in my commentary, then there the "coverage area" is distributed as follows: either a large area with low detail, or a small area with high detail.

                    you made this conclusion based on those fragments pictures that are shown in the video?
                    re-read the Discovery and Identification and Tracking sections of the article. there we are talking about a band of 3000-4000 km in which vessels are tracked and identified. and let me remind you once again that this is for 2016.
                    Quote: Hyperion
                    Do you think VO has an inadequate audience?

                    depends on the article. in the history section are usually adequate ... under this article the most bohemian gathered wassat
                    yes yes, I know I'm here too. I can not deny myself the pleasure bully besides, they are so heap here ...
                  3. Hypertension
                    Hypertension 19 October 2020 23: 47 New
                    +1
                    Quote: SanichSan
                    there we are talking about a band of 3000-4000 km in which vessels are tracked and identified.

                    With optics? A strip of 3-4 thousand km.? and this whole picture is transmitted online?
                    What article are you talking about? The one in English? Let's link again, because the comment with the link was deleted.
                  4. Sanichsan
                    Sanichsan 20 October 2020 01: 10 New
                    0
                    Quote: Hyperion
                    Let's link again, because the comment with the link was deleted.

                    https://satelliteobservation.net/2016/09/20/the-chinese-maritime-surveillance-system/
                    there in chrome translate into Russian .. well, in general, you know.
                    By the way, Timokhin's article also contains an example of the location of optics in a reconnaissance satellite. from this article, in English.
                    and yes, don't forget it's 2016.
                  5. Hypertension
                    Hypertension 20 October 2020 14: 51 New
                    +1
                    In short, a strip of 3000-4000 km. this is the band from all satellite constellations per day.
                    Taking into account the above hypotheses, the total swath width is 300 km x 12 = 3600 km. Consequently, the system can provide a full coverage of 3000 x 4000 km every day and detect all ships in that area.

                    Also there are such lines:
                    However, since only the JB-9 constellation can identify ships, identification can be performed in a third of the zone.

                    So, in theory, there is a place to hide. And there is an opportunity to hide. Small, but there.
                  6. Sanichsan
                    Sanichsan 22 October 2020 15: 40 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Hyperion
                    In short, a strip of 3000-4000 km. this is the band from all satellite constellations per day.

                    uh huh. strip along the entire orbit of the satellite.
                    Quote: Hyperion
                    So, in theory, there is a place to hide. And there is an opportunity to hide. Small, but there.

                    the final is! about the same as ten monkeys poking randomly into the buttons of typewriters to write "War and Peace" yes
                    there are no dead zones, unlike Timokhin's fantasies wink
  • timokhin-aa
    16 October 2020 23: 14 New
    +4
    very similar in style to Rizun


    But you cannot name any of these aspects.

    very similar in style to Rizun


    But you cannot confirm this by presenting

    Balabol
    1. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 17 October 2020 10: 17 New
      -2
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      But you cannot confirm this by presenting

      Balabol

      Well dear, let's go? bully
      at the beginning of the article, you rip off the scheme of the passage of Chinese satellites from someone else's article, by the way, without reference to it, and you start operating with this scheme as if it were a satellite coverage scheme.
      as I already wrote, Rizunov's method is to report some ambiguous or even controversial statement and then build your judgments on its basis as if this statement is already a proven fact.
      so you took the diagram, did not tell the readers that on the diagram there are three satellite constellations displayed in different colors and began to build your own synths. why did you leave out important details? because if everyone knows that this is both a low-orbit and high-orbit constellation, then the question immediately arises, why do all these satellites have the same coverage area and why in the form of a rectangle? and all your theory immediately pours in because it is based on forgery and falsification.
      did you stop there? of course not! the second method of the Rezunovites is an attempt to pull the event of the past onto the realities of the present.
      You are trying to pull the events of 1982 to the technical level of 2020, you are grossly lying giving the technical capabilities of detectors 40 years ago as the current state of detectors.
      pronounced rizunovshchina is obvious! well, bolobol? bully
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 17 October 2020 10: 21 New
    -3
    To all Rezun lovers, I highly recommend reading Wall Street and Hitler's Rise to Power by Anthony Sutton. After reading this book, Rezun's tales are perceived in a completely different way.
  • Nemchinov Vl
    Nemchinov Vl 17 October 2020 01: 53 New
    +1
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    That is, as many as 30 diesel-electric submarines such as our Varshavyanka on the entire coast of China, of course, will reveal any surface forces and ffsekh will sink ...
    Even with KOH = 0,5, this is 15 ships at one time at sea. Timokhin is right
    To admit that the real world is complex and very dangerous, a person with a weak psyche cannot, he does not want to live in a complex and dangerous world and is trying to come up with a plausible fairy tale for himself.

    Well, why are you so, Andrey ?! hi right away ...
    Yes, Alexander sometimes has very interesting articles (and this plus is definitely !), as well as many. I really liked it, there is something to think about. Read in one breath (!)... But on the other hand, I can well admit that not everything is so hopeless ?!... And the fact that the Navy has absolutely no ways with enough high probability , control (or promptly identify) the most dangerous AUG maneuvers / movements probable enemy, right so far ?!, I would not take on faith (!).
    Otherwise it will turn out - ... "we are not ready for war" ...?! .... - https://youtu.be/qigruVo3R-0
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 17 October 2020 10: 24 New
      -3
      And the Chinese "Warsaw woman" does not need to "run" across the sea. She needs to walk with low noise, in the area designated for patrolling.
  • Sentinel-vs
    Sentinel-vs 16 October 2020 07: 35 New
    +6
    The author mentioned only those aspects that he mentioned, repeatedly pointing out that so far only satellites are analyzed, then only aerial reconnaissance, etc. At the end of the article - To be continued.
    1. Sergey_G_M
      Sergey_G_M 16 October 2020 07: 51 New
      -8
      The author is analyzing something strange. His concept of "sneaking up on an enemy shore, hitting and running" is highly controversial. And why do this at all, in principle, what's the point? Moreover, considering that they have bases in Japan, they have cruise missiles with a launch range much greater, why risk dragging an aircraft carrier for a single strike?
      The author simply came up with his own "cunning plan" of using the aircraft carrier and dedicated us to it, but I'm afraid no one will follow such cunning maneuvers.
      1. Sentinel-vs
        Sentinel-vs 16 October 2020 07: 59 New
        19
        Duck, in the introduction of the article, it is written: "There is no topic that in the modern public consciousness would be shrouded in more nonsense than the detection of surface targets in the open sea and a strike on them from the shore." This is explained by the "strange" example of the AUG approach to the shore. The article also says about this that the situation is purely hypothetical for the analysis of the initial thesis about the possibilities of detecting ships.
        1. timokhin-aa
          16 October 2020 11: 17 New
          17
          The article also says about this that the situation is purely hypothetical for the analysis of the initial thesis about the possibilities of detecting ships.


          So.
          I am glad that there are still people who are able to understand the meaning of what they have read without distortion and conjecture.
      2. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 16 October 2020 18: 25 New
        -11
        The author sucked out of his finger a situation, the probability of which in real life is 1: 1))))
        1. timokhin-aa
          16 October 2020 20: 41 New
          +3
          There, in the text, the same situation took place in real life, with the recollections of the participants.
          It's just that you didn't have enough RAM, it didn't fit into the cell.
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 16 October 2020 21: 53 New
            -5
            At the moment when the first "hornet" works on the target, a "thank you" will fly to the USA in the form of a ballistic missile with nuclear warheads. Therefore, such a situation is impossible at all, from the word at all. AUG is to educate the Papuans - like Iraq or Vietnam.
            1. timokhin-aa
              16 October 2020 23: 17 New
              +5
              If I didn't know that you have problems with "reading", "understanding", etc. then I would advise you to study the military doctrine of the Russian Federation or China, regarding whether nuclear weapons are used in response to the Hornet's targeting,
              but in your case it is absolutely useless.
              1. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 17 October 2020 10: 44 New
                -3
                The situation when the AUG "quietly" sneaks up to the coast of China, strikes and escapes - it looks even more delusional than my inability to read and think)))) in this situation, you can safely study the "Military doctrine of crab-dogs from Alpha Centauri". The results will be about the same))))
                1. victor50
                  victor50 17 October 2020 15: 40 New
                  +2
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  than my inability to read and think))))

                  Or maybe that's the problem !?
                2. timokhin-aa
                  18 October 2020 09: 02 New
                  +3
                  The situation when AUG "quietly" sneaks up to the coast of China, strikes and escapes - it looks even more delusional than my inability to read and think))))


                  What about Kamchatka in 1982? It was in reality. Does the reality also look more delusional than your inability to read and think?
                  1. TermNachTer
                    TermNachTer 18 October 2020 09: 39 New
                    0
                    In which cities were BSHU applied? Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky? By Vilyuchinsk? What other settlements were bombed?))))
        2. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan 16 October 2020 21: 53 New
          -2
          Quote: TermNachTER
          The author sucked out of his finger a situation, the probability of which in real life is 1: 1))))

          moreover, the author is like Solzhenizen, then "no one knew anything" then "everyone was imprisoned and everyone was afraid" laughing
          at the beginning of the article, the author writes about the dead zones of the radar and about the fact that satellites do not see anything for a day (oh shit wink ) and right there below "this is how ship traffic looks like" belay
          and what is in reality? but in reality, the lagging US aircraft carrier is under the escort of Chinese destroyers request apparently the Chinese are not aware of the author's research and easily find not only a warrant, but even a separate aircraft carrier ...
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 16 October 2020 22: 22 New
            -2
            Literally removed from the tongue)))) according to the author, the aircraft carrier is in an empty ocean - there is no one around. And then a photo is posted - the density of shipping in the Taiwan-Philippines region. And that there won't be more than one Chinese trawler or dry cargo ship in this area? And the captain won't tell you where to go, what he saw? Finally, the author forgets such a thing as basic bad luck. The Germans took all possible measures to ensure the safe exit of the Bismarck from the Baltic, but literally 3-4 hours after leaving Gothenhaven, he collided with the Gotland and he immediately transmitted information by radio
            1. Sanichsan
              Sanichsan 16 October 2020 22: 36 New
              -1
              Quote: TermNachTER
              The Germans took all possible measures to ensure the safe exit of the Bismarck from the Baltic, but literally 3-4 hours after leaving Gothenhaven, he collided with the Gotland and he immediately transmitted information by radio

              and this was in the 40s when radio communication was a novelty. in the 70s, they conducted exercises where a group of ships were tasked with hitting an aircraft carrier with a cruise missile (even with those missiles and guidance means, that is, in line of sight). carried out within the framework of NATO exercises and managed not only to find the aircraft carrier, but also to hit it. in one case, submariners helped find the aircraft carrier. this despite the fact that it was masked in ship traffic.
              purely theoretically, as you rightly noted, 1: 1000000 such a situation can occur and AUG may not notice, but only the author of the article in a fictional scenario can risk a large formation in real combat conditions request
              By the way, I remembered the convoy PQ-17. They also observed radio silence and everyone remembers how it ended ... and there were no satellites and over-the-horizon radars.
              PS
              I am amazed at the abundance of rave reviews about this fiction as a "sensible article" what
              but! probably not bad. just like a marker marked all "experts" wassat
              1. timokhin-aa
                16 October 2020 23: 24 New
                +6
                I am amazed at the abundance of rave reviews about this fiction as a "sensible article"


                from pilots of Naval Aviation including. For any sane person, this would be a reason to think.
                1. Sanichsan
                  Sanichsan 17 October 2020 00: 18 New
                  -2
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  For any sane person, this would be a reason to think.

                  Forgive me, but the chances of winning against the casino are many times greater than that of your scenario. purely hypothetically, it is possible in much the same way as "war and peace" printed by a dozen monkeys poking randomly into the buttons of a typewriter request
                  for final judgments, I will wait for the continuation, but for now it is definitely an owl stretched over the globe. request
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  from pilots of Naval Aviation including.

                  this is really a reason to think ... not your script, but such pilots of naval aviation, if they are of course wink
                  1. timokhin-aa
                    17 October 2020 09: 32 New
                    +1
                    Forgive me, but the chances of winning against the casino are many times greater than that of your scenario.


                    If you knew how to think, you would see in the text an example of how such a scenario really rolled against the USSR, with a mass of evidence from participants in the events from both sides.

                    this is really a reason to think ... not your script, but such pilots of naval aviation, if they are of course


                    Well, teach their regiment to lead the attack, conduct reconnaissance, otherwise they have been sick for 25 years in the ranks, but they do not know the basics. Teach them how to actually do all these things.

                    I really want to see this.
                    1. Sanichsan
                      Sanichsan 17 October 2020 10: 54 New
                      -1
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      If you knew how to think, you would see in the text an example of how such a scenario really rolled against the USSR, with a mass of evidence from participants in the events from both sides.

                      oh how. the script means a ride. well then touch! as you know, Columbus sailed to India, but ended up in America. obvious precedent. it means, according to your logic of precedent, the AUG will not reach China or Russia and will end up kudanibut in Africa. well, what, it was already wink
                      Or maybe a number of factors play a role, such as full coverage of the border with a network of radars, developed satellite constellation, quality and capabilities of the radars themselves and means of detection? Or no? will we continue to believe that nothing has changed in 40 years?
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      Well, teach their regiment to lead the attack, conduct reconnaissance, otherwise they have been sick for 25 years in the ranks, but they do not know the basics. Teach them how to actually do all these things.

                      who is "them" then? another beza? no thank you! stop this is your electorate. let them further admire the dexterous rounds of the line of sight of the radars and sink Russian submarines in the Crimea by diving in and making holes in the bottom. wassat
            2. 911sx
              911sx 19 October 2020 02: 48 New
              0
              Everything happens in war.
            3. Volder
              Volder 20 October 2020 12: 23 New
              0
              Quote: TermNachTER
              Finally, the author forgets such a thing as elementary bad luck. The Germans took all possible measures to ensure the safe exit of the Bismarck from the Baltic, but literally 3-4 hours after leaving Gothenhaven, he collided with the Gotland and he immediately transmitted information by radio
              This was in the XNUMXth century. And now, in the XXI century, everything is much unlucky: the media know in advance where the aircraft carriers will be sent, and then track their movements almost in real time. It is difficult to hide anything. Public information can put an end to the entire military operation. Think of the confrontation between the United States and North Korea, when the Americans brought their aircraft carrier to conduct provocative exercises off the coast of the DPRK. The whole world knew about it, and in advance.
        3. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan 16 October 2020 22: 11 New
          0
          oh yes ... according to the author's synths about how aug will hide from satellites ...
          here is the original article from which the author took material:
          https://satelliteobservation.net/2016/09/20/the-chinese-maritime-surveillance-system/

          interestingly, the conclusion of the article is absolutely opposite to the conclusion of the author and his enthusiastic retinue laughing
          "Thanks to its satellites, China has optical, radar and electronic capabilities to detect, identify and track ships at sea. Even without taking into account real-time tracking from geostationary orbit, the wide-angle JB-9 constellation and the JB-5 and JB-7 SAR constellations can find contacts in a vast area every day, and have a good chance of refreshing the location of the most interesting ships every few hours... Consequently, it seems unlikely a naval group could hide in the ocean for long. "
          1. timokhin-aa
            16 October 2020 23: 22 New
            +1
            Well, this conclusion does not agree with the graph of the flight of satellites from the word in general.
            1. Sanichsan
              Sanichsan 16 October 2020 23: 31 New
              0
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Well, this conclusion does not agree with the graph of the flight of satellites from the word in general.

              Well Duc is there a link? Did you take screenshots from this article? no other sources found. only your article and the primary source. there it is analyzed in detail and what flies where and what covers. By the way, why are you only considering optoelectronic reconnaissance satellites? there are also several groups. the article explicitly states that China has the ability to monitor the zone in real time and, at the same time, the optoelectronic system is not the only one that can identify targets. other groups do not fit into the plot?
              1. timokhin-aa
                17 October 2020 00: 11 New
                +2
                Well, there is a link, so what? People have the correct facts, but not the correct interpretation. Why do I need their interpretation?

                why are you only considering optical electronic reconnaissance satellites?


                Please read what you are commenting first.

                other groups do not fit into the plot?


                Coverage see what flies where.
                1. Sanichsan
                  Sanichsan 17 October 2020 02: 17 New
                  +2
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Well, there is a link, so what? People have the correct facts, but not the correct interpretation. Why do I need their interpretation?

                  really why. if we talk about all the constellation of Chinese satellites with a real coverage area, as in the original source, then your fantasy becomes a little crazy wink
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Please read what you are commenting first.

                  re-read. in your article only a simulation under which it is written: In the simulation, satellite pointing has not been optimized for maximum coverage, so it is possible to have less overlap and more coverage.
                  here I see a primitive Rezunov technique .. to mention a certain statement without pretending to be reliable, but then build your reasoning on the basis of this doubtful statement as based on a proven fact.
                  on what basis do you state that these rectangles are the coverage area? go to the article and see. in the same pictures where it is clearly visible that the coverage areas of each (!!!) grouping completely cover the region and if at least one of the satellites is in the zone, then he sees the entire region, and not a narrow path as in the simulation.
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Coverage see what flies where.

                  looked. you falsify facts or do not understand what you are publishing request the simulation you are referring to has orbits over the region. there, in the article, there are pictures with a coverage area that covers the entire region for each satellite.
                  but this is not the saddest thing ...
                  appeals to the events of 1982 (!!!) and an incomprehensible attempt to convince everyone that now is the same as in 1982. Are you serious? Do you still have 1982 in your yard?
                  What about over-the-horizon radars? 300-500km? you wrote that? on the basis of open data export (!) "sunflower"? This is when the "container" is already being exploited in our country, and even China in this area has stepped far up to mobile complexes-networks.
                  say that export from military is not very different? for reference, the maximum range of 3M-14E is 300 km, the working (not maximum) range of 3M-14 is 1500 km, the maximum is unknown. but for some, the difference is certainly not great request
                  but of course the most enchanting is this:
                  "But they do not even suspect that there is a target for him, and so on until the airfield with these N-6 turns into a branch of hell.

                  Slow clumsy ships have done everything again.
                  "
                  five points! good they came up with it, they won everyone! extravaganza wassat a little more and reach the "unparalleled in the world" laughing

                  I will summarize.
                  1) the article is a fantasy for the gullible.
                  2) assessing modern technical capabilities based on the events of thirty-eight years ago is nonsense yes
                  3) to assess the capabilities of the satellite constellation under article 2016, despite the fact that China makes more than 30 launches a year, to appeal to the scheme with trajectories as a fact that reflects the coverage of satellites, to deliberately underestimate and ignore other detection methods, this is somehow completely unscrupulous. request

                  but you did a good job! the discussion under your article gives a lot of information about those who commented on it. as one of your followers wrote "reason to think". soldier
                  1. timokhin-aa
                    17 October 2020 09: 55 New
                    +1
                    In the simulation, satellite pointing has not been optimized for maximum coverage, so it is possible to have less overlap and more coverage.


                    This issue is raised and disclosed in the article.

                    on what basis do you state that these rectangles are the coverage area? go to the article and see. in the same pictures where it is clearly visible that the coverage areas of each (!!!)


                    You do not understand what you saw. These areas drawn in the pictures are line-of-sight areas, not coverage areas. The coverage area even for the Gaofen-4 geostationary is 400x400 km. And in the line of sight - 50% of the Earth's surface. The question "is it clear?" I won't ask you, of course.

                    appeals to the events of 1982 (!!!) and an incomprehensible attempt to convince everyone that now is the same as in 1982. Are you serious? Do you still have 1982 in your yard?


                    Because, apart from the means of automated information processing, the quality of communication and optics has not changed much since then. Physics is the same, for example remained. The radio horizons are the same, the number of hours in a day is the same, the speeds of airplanes are the same, etc.
                    What's the question?

                    What about over-the-horizon radars? 300-500km? you wrote that? on the basis of open data export (!) "sunflower"? This is when the "container" is already being exploited in our country, and even China in this area has stepped far up to mobile complexes-networks.
                    say that export from military is not very different? for reference, the maximum range of 3M-14E is 300 km, the working (not maximum) range of 3M-14 is 1500 km, the maximum is unknown. but for some, the difference is certainly not great


                    Re-read the article more attentively, there is about the "Container". As for the rest, it doesn't matter whether the ZGRLS is exported or not, there is physics and it is insurmountable.

                    I will not comment on the rest of the nonsense.
                    1. Sanichsan
                      Sanichsan 17 October 2020 10: 46 New
                      +1
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      This issue is raised and disclosed in the article.

                      wanted to say "veiled and retouched"?
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      You do not understand what you saw. These areas drawn in the pictures are line-of-sight areas, not coverage areas. The coverage area even for the Gaofen-4 geostationary is 400x400 km. And in the line of sight - 50% of the Earth's surface. The question "is it clear?" I won't ask you, of course.

                      what kind of nonsense are you talking about? what 50% ??? they have a coverage area on the floor of the Atlantic, which is reflected in the unpublished orbits and coverage areas from the article from which you took the initial data. you have there three groups in different orbits marked with the same rectangles. does not hesitate? not?
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      Because, apart from the means of automated information processing, the quality of communication and optics has not changed much since then. Physics is the same, for example remained. The radio horizons are the same, the number of hours in a day is the same, the speeds of airplanes are the same, etc.
                      What's the question?

                      oh how! cool! good that is, FuMO 30 has the same characteristics as AN / SPY-3? physics is kind of the same, right? oh byada byada! but the United States does not know that their zamvolts only see 3 km belay
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      As for the rest, it doesn't matter whether the ZGRLS is exported or not, there is physics and it is insurmountable.

                      uh huh. let's forget about the example with 3M14 so that your fantasies don't collapse?
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      I will not comment on the rest of the nonsense.

                      of course not commenting, generating! yes
                  2. TermNachTer
                    TermNachTer 17 October 2020 16: 49 New
                    0
                    Comrade, Mr. Timokhin has only two options for interpreting the facts - his and wrong)))
  • timokhin-aa
    16 October 2020 10: 55 New
    +7
    What are the intelligence systems?

    For submarines there are acoustic masking systems for ships.
  • Charik
    Charik 16 October 2020 06: 15 New
    -17
    We rent suuu !!!!
  • dimz
    dimz 16 October 2020 06: 29 New
    -22
    When can I start using nuclear weapons? An aircraft carrier group is attacking a nuclear power, isn't it funny?
    1. Blackmokona
      Blackmokona 16 October 2020 06: 56 New
      31
      Argentina attacked a nuclear power and seized part of its territory? It's funny, but the real war was
      1. Eug
        Eug 16 October 2020 09: 16 New
        +7
        And NATO did not intervene - not its area of ​​interest ..
        1. Blackmokona
          Blackmokona 16 October 2020 13: 09 New
          +4
          NATO was ready to intervene, but Britain said they would roll it out themselves, fearing that the USSR would side with Argentina.
          As a result, it rolled out in less than a year with losses of only 255 people. And from such a shame, the Argentine Junta fell. After all, not all NATO was rolled, but only one former mistress of the seas.
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 16 October 2020 18: 28 New
            -1
            Read the memoirs of Margaret Thatcher and John Woodward. It is better to read in the original, translations can be very funny.
        2. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 16 October 2020 18: 26 New
          -1
          And Iraq, Afghanistan are NATO's area of ​​responsibility?
    2. timokhin-aa
      16 October 2020 11: 00 New
      +9
      China's doctrine of non-application first
    3. Doccor18
      Doccor18 16 October 2020 14: 59 New
      10
      When can I start using nuclear weapons?

      One wonders how many adherents of nuclear weapons in the country have come to believe in the absolute greatness of nuclear missiles since Nikita's time. How many have been used in these 75 years? Never!
      Nuclear weapons should serve as an inevitable guarantee of a nuclear retaliation strike. So that others don't itch first to use weapons of mass destruction. For this, the Strategic Missile Forces serve. But to fight with nuclear weapons in any conflict ... it is unrealistic.
      The army must be multi-purpose, capable of fending off any threat. Warhead 100 Mgt. do not solve all the problems.
  • Mikhail m
    Mikhail m 16 October 2020 06: 39 New
    31
    There are a bunch of empty comments to a serious article, even from those who did not overcome the article because of the number of letters. The USE results are realized in real life.
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 16 October 2020 06: 51 New
      12
      Quote: Michael m
      There are a bunch of empty comments to a serious article, even from those who did not overcome the article because of the number of letters. The USE results are realized in real life.

      yeah ... (Kisa Vorobyaninov (C) lol "Specialists" divorced on VO! in any way "distant" helps in schools. yes
  • Sentinel-vs
    Sentinel-vs 16 October 2020 06: 45 New
    34
    The most gorgeous article !!! Such, ideally, should be the materials on this site. And not populism with slogans and jargon, like some.
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 16 October 2020 06: 53 New
      17
      Quote: Sentinel-vs
      The most gorgeous article !!! Such, ideally, should be the materials on this site. And not populism with slogans and jargon, like some.

      article is rare, I agree. but what does the VO turn into with the "divanievoenami" ... horror. solid flood. moderators on vacation?
    2. 2 Level Advisor
      2 Level Advisor 16 October 2020 08: 42 New
      18
      I will support! article for 5+ with arguments, examples and an analytical component! without "hurray" and "everything is lost" ..
    3. 911sx
      911sx 19 October 2020 03: 19 New
      +2
      Timokhin is always interesting to read. Klimov and Andrey from Chelyabinsk are the best authors who open their eyes to many problems of the Navy, and not only that. Sometimes the comments contain a lot of interesting things (why I read them), they often discuss, explain the moments incomprehensible to a layman. However, it is not clear why there is so much flood in the comments (its nature is clear). And the more interesting the material, the more of this rubbish. The site administration needs to do something about it ....
  • Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 16 October 2020 06: 48 New
    29
    When I served in the 90s, I sometimes had to go to the time of flights of the Basurman satellites to rewrite in the magazine. The abundance of numbers was unpleasantly surprising, but on a clear starry night at that time one could observe a barely noticeable star flying by.
    The moral of this epic, which I read with interest, is that for every cunning bolt there is something with nooks and crannies. And the games of "cat and mouse" should be better carried out in peacetime than in a state of war.
    And further. Mr. Timokhin is right that the reality is much more interesting and more complicated than the hat of the couch admirals smile
    And the problem today is much more urgent, because if the skills of foreign warriors are falling, then the capabilities of the Russian Federation are much more modest than the capabilities of the USSR request
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 16 October 2020 07: 15 New
      13
      Quote: Rurikovich
      When I served in the 90s, I sometimes had to go to the time of flights of the Basurman satellites to rewrite in the magazine

      when he served in 1980, at the headquarters of the regiment, there was a board where the time of the satellites' flight over a given territory was constantly marked with chalk, at this time, there should be no people or cars near the building and nearby territories. in how.
  • Yuri V.A
    Yuri V.A 16 October 2020 07: 12 New
    -1
    If there is such heavy traffic in the area indicated by the example, why not use the radio equipment of your civilian ships or ships of allied countries for review?
    1. Sentinel-vs
      Sentinel-vs 16 October 2020 07: 38 New
      0
      Civilian ships do not have such location and information capabilities as military ones.
      1. prodi
        prodi 16 October 2020 07: 58 New
        -2
        but not necessarily, you can combine them into a network and it will be cheaper
        1. Sentinel-vs
          Sentinel-vs 16 October 2020 08: 01 New
          +1
          If we are to fantasize about the full program, then during the hostilities, civilian shipping in the area will probably be closed.
          1. prodi
            prodi 16 October 2020 08: 16 New
            +2
            that's wonderful, the factor of surprise will decrease, from above it will become better visible, and from below it is better heard
            1. max702
              max702 16 October 2020 08: 47 New
              -7
              But one banal call on the cell of some surprised Chinese and all the AUG was opened .. As always, they are preparing for the past wars ..
              1. timokhin-aa
                16 October 2020 11: 01 New
                11
                Cell phones do not work at sea.
                But in general, you can burn like that.
                But you don't need to get burned.
                1. max702
                  max702 16 October 2020 13: 40 New
                  -6
                  As I understand it, Mr. Timokhin has never heard of satellite communication systems that are mandatory on ships .. I understand that continuing to live in the realities of the 70s and playing by their rules in a sea battle, it is difficult to imagine that information can be transmitted not only by carrier pigeons ..
                  1. timokhin-aa
                    16 October 2020 18: 44 New
                    +2
                    You didn't write about satellite communications, but about cellular communications. Regarding the rest, I replied - there is a risk of flying in this way, but there are other problems for the defender.
                    1. Lex_is
                      Lex_is 16 October 2020 19: 07 New
                      +5
                      there is a risk of flying so


                      No matter how funny, the risk of flying in like this is not very big.
                      In the merchant marine, under the flag, people work by contracts, and they generally do not care, no one there is intently peering into the distance looking out AUG. Outside the zone of intensive shipping, the watchman usually puts a safe-zone on the AIS doing paperwork (which is immensely) or sleeping them through the DSC, which is not always possible to get.

                      Well, to expect that the three Filipino, seeing the escort destroyer, will run to look for the coordinates of the PLA headquarters for the report - it is somewhat naive, he will post a maximum of selfies on Instagram.
                      1. timokhin-aa
                        16 October 2020 20: 45 New
                        +2
                        There are a lot of Chinese ships, fishermen, etc. in this particular area.
                        But you can also dodge. Press closer to the AIS neutrals, when the navigation radar detects a target that does not have AIS, dodge, etc.
                        How it goes, in short.
                  2. Sasha_rulevoy
                    Sasha_rulevoy 18 October 2020 09: 51 New
                    0
                    Quote: max702
                    I understand that Mr. Timokhin has never heard of satellite communication systems that are mandatory on ships.


                    There are two such systems. Inmarsat and Iridium. The first is English, the second is American. We can imagine that Trump calls the head office of Inmarsat: then and there, they say, we are going to fight tomorrow, so please, temporarily disconnect all satellites over the Pacific Ocean and all subscribers with a Chinese address. And I don't think there will be long persuasions with Iridium.
                    1. max702
                      max702 18 October 2020 21: 34 New
                      0
                      Yes, of course, in China, of course, they will not pay attention to this and so on .. Khrosh to suffer from idiocy ..
                2. Volder
                  Volder 20 October 2020 12: 48 New
                  0
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  Cell phones do not work at sea.
                  But the Internet works!
              2. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 16 October 2020 11: 38 New
                +1
                Quote: max702
                But one banal call on the cell of some surprised Chinese and all the AUG was opened ..

                SSBN Ohio was covered.
                1. timokhin-aa
                  16 October 2020 12: 48 New
                  +4
                  We heard a mobile phone from under the water
                  1. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 16 October 2020 13: 19 New
                    +1
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    We heard a mobile phone from under the water

                    We began to "scratch" through all the channels, trying to understand this confusion and, praying to the naval God, not to move out of mind. And God helped! One of the channels suddenly burst out:

                    - Mikyta, so I tebe bach on a pleger craft (pleasure boat)? Are you phishing malekho?

                    - So it's me, brother. Salmona (salmon) phishing with kinders.

                    - Fayno! You bach Salmon?

                    “That’s not right. Standby in touch, otherwise my dog ​​is loose.

                    The frightened voice of Mikyta five minutes later:

                    - Mikyta calling Pavlo. Pavlo, it happened - you won't believe it! Howl my dog ​​and howl, he bathes on the water. That, I mean, fucking a dog. Chu, bachu to the water ... BIG FISH [40] swim under us. Well, yakoy fish is a submarine with my apartment building. Yakoy did not bach befor at all. Merikanska then, I understand.

                    Here it is, the moment of truth! It remains for us to give the command "fas!" (to whom - guess for yourself) and, thinking warmly about the brothers-Ukrainians, go home.

                    At home, the commander received an order ...

                    https://e-libra.me/read/525322-charli-charli-bravo.html
                    1. Alexey RA
                      Alexey RA 16 October 2020 13: 37 New
                      +4
                      Keyword:
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      charli-charli-bravo

                      For such a detection, it is necessary to have a CER in the area of ​​the base that monitors all communication channels.
                      1. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 16 October 2020 13: 42 New
                        0
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        For such a detection, it is necessary to have a CER in the area of ​​the base that monitors all communication channels.

                        If Mikyt was surprised to be a patriot, he would probably get through to the right place.
                    2. max702
                      max702 16 October 2020 13: 44 New
                      -1
                      Well, you just cut it for a living .. Don't you know that AUG is invisible and inaudible in all ranges of known radiation ..
                      And if specialized means do not notice them, then where are ordinary civilians, especially those in whose traffic AUG should hide ... Otherwise, it's not fair and local naval commanders don't play like that ..
        2. Avior
          Avior 16 October 2020 09: 24 New
          +4
          And what do you get? Some kind of marks of some kind of ships, there are a lot of them
          This is enough for the civilian, the military also needs to know, maybe it could be an aircraft carrier.?
          1. prodi
            prodi 16 October 2020 09: 32 New
            -2
            so I am not discussing that an aircraft carrier is an easy target, I just believe that it is not necessary to counteract it with another aircraft carrier, but with aviation, more powerful and numerous than its one. In the coastal strip of Russia's borders, there should be no problems with this, in contrast to the construction of an ocean-going fleet that could successfully butt with the American
            1. Avior
              Avior 16 October 2020 09: 40 New
              12
              The aircraft carrier is not a victim, but a hunter who quickly changes his position ..
              10 hours - 500 km.
              It will be difficult to search for it outside the zone of coastal fighter aircraft - this will lead to the loss of reconnaissance aircraft, and there are not infinitely many of them.
              And he will enter the zone when he himself can strike very quickly, and immediately he will strike at the airfields and radars, of which there are not so many and their location is known.
              1. prodi
                prodi 16 October 2020 09: 49 New
                -2
                "infinitely many" scouts, it is still cheaper, and there are not so many places from which he could strike at us (to concentrate coastal aviation)
                1. Avior
                  Avior 16 October 2020 09: 52 New
                  +8
                  And time, don't forget.
                  And the place is not easy.
                  In the presence of an aircraft carrier, it is the enemy who chooses the time and place of the strike, and you can kill the resource and combat effectiveness of your aircraft while waiting.
                  1. Sanichsan
                    Sanichsan 16 October 2020 23: 00 New
                    -2
                    Quote: Avior
                    If there is an aircraft carrier, it is the enemy who chooses the time and place of the strike

                    or the place of death. in heavy traffic he will be seen (with the eyes) thousands of miles away and reported where to. further it will be led by submarines, satellites, over-the-counter radar, AWACS and everything. in case of suspicious activity, they will drown. request
                    Quote: Avior
                    and you can kill the resource and combat effectiveness of your aircraft while waiting.

                    hmmm ... that is, no one will spend a resource on an aircraft carrier? it means that the deaf and the blind will swim? well, great idea for suicide! good
                    1. Avior
                      Avior 16 October 2020 23: 49 New
                      +4
                      Heavy traffic is not the main street during rush hour.
                      There are many ships there, but the distances between them are not so small.
                      30 km from a civilian ship, and he will not see it with his eyes, but even on the radar.
                      And if he sees it on the radar, it will not determine the type in any way.
                      Aug will have a complete picture of the movement, and using the advantages in speed, it can pass without catching the eye or at least getting caught, and after all, only a few will be spies from all traffic, they still need to be hit.
                      For this, the aircraft carrier's resource is not needed, there is such a thing as link 16, for example.
                      The low-noise speed of the submarines is 4 knots, they just won't catch up
                      About satellites and over-the-horizon, read the article.
                      1. Sanichsan
                        Sanichsan 17 October 2020 00: 37 New
                        0
                        Quote: Avior
                        Heavy traffic is not the main street during rush hour.
                        There are many ships there, but the distances between them are not so small.
                        30 km from a civilian ship, and he will not see it with his eyes, but even on the radar.

                        do you seriously believe it? Bismarck was burnt under much less dense traffic, without radars, and with primitive radio communications 4 hours after his release with maximum secrecy of the campaign. but do you continue to believe that the AUG (large group of ships) will pass unnoticed ??? Seriously???
                        Quote: Avior
                        Aug will have a complete picture of the movement, and using the advantages in speed, it can pass without catching the eye or at least getting caught, and after all, only a few will be spies from all traffic, they still need to be hit.
                        For this, the aircraft carrier's resource is not needed, there is such a thing as link 16, for example.

                        1) they will see AUG not on radars, but visually.
                        2) All Chinese and China-friendly ships are spies.
                        3) AUG will have a complete picture of navigation when using its radars, and therefore lit up as a searchlight.
                        4) it is enough for them to light up once. further, these targets will be taken for escort and no inflatable emulators will help here, because only the mentally retarded will focus on the drifting target if the target is divided into a drifting and actively maneuvering one.
                        5) the target will also check optoelectronic reconnaissance, aviation and all other means of detection.

                        As a result, they will be met at distant approaches and accompanied as they do regularly.
                        Quote: Avior
                        The low-noise speed of the submarines is 4 knots, they just won't catch up

                        and where does the low-noise? why did you decide that the submarines will chase the warrant? track, then if anything, finish off what after a missile strike will survive. it will not swim fast. wink Besides, let me remind you that these are not submarines chasing the AUG, this is an AUG-type secretly entering the submarine's area of ​​operation.
                        Quote: Avior
                        About satellites and over-the-horizon, read the article.

                        in in. and I advise you to read the original source. there are completely different conclusions. yes
                      2. Avior
                        Avior 17 October 2020 17: 42 New
                        +3
                        Compare the size of the ocean with the number of submarines - and it will be clear why you have to chase.
                        Bismarck was almost a hundred years ago, now one flight of an AWACS will give a picture, and even a deck helicopter, who is moving where and where, and how to get through so that it is impossible to visually identify it, and even more so by radar.
                        False targets - tow behind the minesweeper or frigate and maneuver as much as you want.
                      3. Sanichsan
                        Sanichsan 18 October 2020 22: 57 New
                        0
                        Quote: Avior
                        Bismarck was almost a hundred years ago, now one flight of an AWACS will give a picture, and even a deck helicopter, who is moving where and where, and how to get through so that it is impossible to visually identify it, and even more so by radar.

                        re-read what you wrote. all under the Chinese flag.
                        or if about the Chinese then all this does not work?
                        Quote: Avior
                        False targets - tow behind the minesweeper or frigate and maneuver as much as you want.

                        uh huh. at a speed of 50 knots. and of course the Chinese will not check why the target is divided and what is where. wassat
                      4. Avior
                        Avior 18 October 2020 23: 34 New
                        0
                        how will they check? in Google?
                        and the aircraft carrier does not go slower than 50 knots? (I'll tell you a secret - he doesn't walk even 50)
                        "re-read what you wrote. It's all under the Chinese flag.
                        or if about the Chinese then all this does not work? "
                        Where will the Chinese deck helicopter come from? by magic?
                      5. Sanichsan
                        Sanichsan 19 October 2020 01: 03 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Avior
                        how will they check? in Google?

                        of course not. will swim up and look, as in the photo from the satellite in the article of your authority Timokhin wink Well, that's where 6 Chinese destroyers huddle an American aircraft carrier. Timokhin prudently did not sign this photo bully
                        Quote: Avior
                        and the aircraft carrier does not go slower than 50 knots? (I'll tell you a secret - he doesn't walk even 50)

                        they will burn you for heresy! they will definitely burn yes Saint Timokhin clearly wrote for his adherents: “The point is not that this thing has 90 tons of displacement. The point is that it has 000 km / h speed. Always"
                        yes, I'll get better, not 50 knots but 55 km / h. I don't want to burn next to you laughing
                        Quote: Avior
                        Where will the Chinese deck helicopter come from? by magic?

                        if the helicopter is replaced with a drone, will something change? belay where will they come from? from Chinese destroyers. don't believe me? once again see the satellite photo in Timokhin's article.
                        if you suddenly forgot, let me remind you that the United States has 1 miserable AUG, and China has their entire fleet of more than 300 ships, and unlike the American AUG, which are 3/4 in the port or under repair, the Chinese are working.
                      6. Avior
                        Avior 19 October 2020 01: 59 New
                        -1
                        If in peacetime, let them sail and watch, in the military, they will be drowned if they float. How many warships are there in China for aug tracking? If they were sprayed over the ocean? And do you think they don't need repairs?
                        And if they drive to each suspicious place, how much fuel will they have?
                        The aircraft carrier always has it with them, and for the escort, there will only be a rendezvous point known to them for refueling, the Chinese will not wait there.
                        So the aircraft carrier will always have 30 knots, which you determined at 50, and the Chinese have an economic move.
                      7. Sanichsan
                        Sanichsan 19 October 2020 03: 34 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Avior
                        If in peacetime, let them sail and watch, in the military, they will be drowned if they float.

                        in the military and the aircraft carrier will be drowned. Or is an aircraft carrier in Ukrainian mythology something indestructible and, at the suggestion of Timokhin, not visible? laughing
                        Quote: Avior
                        How many warships are there in China for aug tracking?

                        drones on every destroyer, only unlike the United States, they are not smeared across the globe.
                        Quote: Avior
                        And if they drive to each suspicious place, how much fuel will they have?
                        I understand ... yes, for a country with a fleet of inflatable boats it really is a problem to check suspicious contacts and even find contacts that may be suspicious, but for China with the second, if not the first, fleet in the world, it is quite representative aviation, including reconnaissance , a group of satellites, by the way that has grown since 2016 about which they wrote in an article from which Timokhin tore off screenshots, artificial islands with radars, this is not a problem.
                        Quote: Avior
                        The aircraft carrier always has it with them, and for the escort, there will only be a rendezvous point known to them for refueling, the Chinese will not wait there.

                        doooh! And the tankers will also deftly bypass satellites and reconnaissance aircraft? or lead directly to the warrant? laughing
                        of course they will wait for the Chinese, the Americans are not Timokhin. they risk their lives, unlike Timokhin who does not even risk his reputation. and most likely will wait.
                        Quote: Avior
                        So the aircraft carrier will always have 30 knots, which you determined at 50, and the Chinese have an economic move.

                        does not work. the Chinese in their waters close to their bases with full air support, the United States on the other side of the ocean with limited air support.
                      8. Avior
                        Avior 19 October 2020 05: 39 New
                        0
                        China has the first fleet in the world?
                        Get back to reality.
                        At the same time, it will come to light that the Americans will not wage a war with the forces of one AUG against all of China.
                        And the capabilities of the Americans for reconnaissance, submarine fleet, aviation with refueling and other things will not go anywhere.
                        Therefore, no Chinese fleet, scattered across the ocean in search of an aircraft carrier, will not be close, but it will remain at its coast, under the cover of coastal aviation.
                        But, on the other hand, I will not stop you from fantasizing
                        Dare
                        hi
            2. Volder
              Volder 20 October 2020 13: 02 New
              0
              Quote: Avior
              Compare the size of the ocean with the number of submarines - and it will be clear why you have to chase.
              China will have to chase, yeah But in the case of Russia, our submarines will be waiting in relatively narrow openings between land and seas - 500 km from the coast. Look at the geographic map.
            3. Avior
              Avior 20 October 2020 13: 48 New
              0
              The aircraft carrier will not go 500 km to the coast.
              He doesn't need it.
              It makes no sense at all for the Baltic and Black.
        3. Lex_is
          Lex_is 18 October 2020 04: 57 New
          0
          all Chinese and China-friendly ships will be spies.

          And you look how much traffic there is of ships under the flag of China and you will be very surprised - there will be 5-6 percent of them.

          to have a complete picture of the navigation AUG will use its radars

          AUG will have a complete picture of civil navigation from the AIS receiver without even leaving its home base. Moreover, with exact knowledge of the IMO of the vessel, flag, home port, declared route and track of movement.

          it is enough for them to light up once. further these goals will be taken for escort

          Only if the Chinese have learned to teleport the ships of the fleet. To take on confident escort, you also need to bring the ship to intercept, and this is not such an easy and quick task
        4. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan 18 October 2020 23: 10 New
          -1
          Quote: Lex_is
          And you look how much traffic there is of ships under the flag of China and you will be very surprised - there will be 5-6 percent of them.

          authoritatively determined by putting your finger to your nose?
          Quote: Lex_is
          AUG will have a complete picture of civil navigation from the AIS receiver without even leaving its home base. Moreover, with exact knowledge of the IMO of the vessel, flag, home port, declared route and track of movement.

          and? and the advancement of the AUG will be stopped at the exit from the port and will be conducted constantly. to hide from the modern reconnaissance satellite AUG can only in Timokhin's fantasies.
          Quote: Lex_is
          Only if the Chinese have learned to teleport the ships of the fleet.

          exactly? then you have revealed the terrible secret of the Chinese! wassat they already know how bully have you read your guru's article? satellite photo with a group of ships, well, where Timokhin philosophizes about the fact that nothing is clear from such a photo ... so, in this photo, an American aircraft carrier which is surrounded by the very teleported Chinese destroyers bully Well? wake up further disgrace? wink
        5. Lex_is
          Lex_is 19 October 2020 06: 33 New
          +1
          authoritatively determined by putting your finger to your nose?

          No, unlike some, I know what AIS is and I can use it, in particular, set filters by flag laughing

          I will reveal a terrible secret - the destroyers of China almost always accompany the US AUG, precisely in order to ensure reliable target designation.
          And this is done precisely for the simple reason that the satellite constellation is not enough for tracking and target designation.
        6. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan 19 October 2020 15: 15 New
          0
          Quote: Lex_is
          I will reveal a terrible secret - the destroyers of China almost always accompany the US AUG, precisely in order to ensure reliable target designation.

          awesome! good accompany, but cannot find! "P" is logic. wassat
          Quote: Lex_is
          And this is done precisely for the simple reason that the satellite constellation is not enough for tracking and target designation.

          charming! And these people here reproach someone with hats? bully
        7. Lex_is
          Lex_is 19 October 2020 17: 10 New
          0
          awesome! good is accompanied, but cannot find! "P" is logic. wassat

          Do you communicate with voices in your head?

          First of all.
          Who told you that it is impossible to find AUG? And it is possible that they find and accompany.
          It's just that it is very much more difficult than looking at the data of the satellite and ZGRLS and requires the presence of an appropriate outfit of forces and means, which is described in the article.

          Secondly.
          The Chinese Navy, during most deployments of the AUG 7 fleet, does not even need to be looked for, for the simple reason that the deployments are indicative in nature and are demonstratively carried out on the disputed islands where the Chinese fleet is on combat duty.

          Thirdly, now, CVN-76 is deploying in the Indian Ocean, no Chinese ships are accompanying it there and it is a very big question whether they will be able to escort him if he attempts to covertly approach the islands at a distance from carrier-based aircraft strike or not.
        8. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan 19 October 2020 18: 12 New
          0
          Quote: Lex_is
          Do you communicate with voices in your head?

          no, with you. and what happens with you? belay
          Quote: Lex_is
          First of all.
          Who told you that it is impossible to find AUG?

          Well, Timokhin says that oops oops and hid right in the waters controlled by China. Of course, with some conventions, such as the absence of all means of detection except satellites, but those who control satellites are drunk and do not control them. I see no other explanation for the fact that the satellites are looking into an abstract rectangle strictly below them.
          Quote: Lex_is
          And it is possible that they find and accompany.

          already better. good
          Quote: Lex_is
          It's just that it is very much more difficult than looking at the data of the satellite and ZGRLS and requires the presence of an appropriate outfit of forces and means, which is described in the article.

          uh ... so you are proposing a new assumption? are the lapukhs engaged in analyzing information from satellites in China? and of course in manual mode? no supercomputers there, just loving Chinese eyes?
          Quote: Lex_is
          Secondly.
          The Chinese Navy, during most deployments of the AUG 7 fleet, does not even need to be looked for, for the simple reason that the deployments are indicative in nature and are demonstratively carried out on the disputed islands where the Chinese fleet is on combat duty.

          generally excellent! good
          Quote: Lex_is
          Thirdly, now, CVN-76 is deploying in the Indian Ocean, no Chinese ships are accompanying it there and it is a very big question whether they will be able to escort him if he attempts to covertly approach the islands at a distance from carrier-based aircraft strike or not.

          let's clarify the details of your scenario.
          if the case is still in a peaceful period, then there is every chance. China, and any other country, in peacetime does not carry out patrolling and tight control of waters at a depth of 1000 km from its territorial waters. yes, there are some patrols and there are submarines, but tightly graze the US AUG somewhere in the Indian Ocean? what for? if the United States is going to start a war with a strike on the disputed islands, then why should they hide at all? the islands are the leading edge of the defense so that they do not get to the continental part. I understand that you admit that it is not realistic to get AUG unnoticed for the islands?
          if it happens in wartime, then satellites and other means of reconnaissance will conduct the AUG from the home port from the moment it leaves, and not just conduct, but attack by all available means, even if right in the home port before going to sea.
          so what's going on with us?
  • Avior
    Avior 18 October 2020 23: 36 New
    0
    and an even more difficult task is to leave it safe and sound in visual proximity to the AUG for a long time.
  • common man
    common man 16 October 2020 13: 31 New
    +1
    Quote: Avior
    The aircraft carrier is not a victim, but a hunter who quickly changes his position ..
    10 hours - 500 km.

    It's not that this thing has 90 tonnes of displacement. The fact is that it has a speed of 000 km / h. Is always
    An amateur's question. To what extent can the ships and vessels (and there are tankers and supplies) support the pace of movement of the nuclear aircraft carrier? He didn't care, he charged 30 knots and floated across the ocean, but they?
    1. Avior
      Avior 16 October 2020 14: 19 New
      +5
      He, too, will not walk across the ocean at that speed.
      He is capable of throwing when needed.
      I remember that in the war with Iraq there was a situation when an aircraft carrier kept full speed for XNUMX hours.
      Destroyers are capable of that too.
      Tankers may temporarily lag behind.
      Speed ​​is needed, for example, to quickly reach the strike range.
    2. Beregovic_1
      Beregovic_1 16 October 2020 14: 31 New
      +5
      They have supply vessels with a speed of about 20-22 knots. They move as part of the AUG before arriving in (suppose) the concentration area. There, having filled all the gas turbines in full, the supply vessels remain. Aircraft carrier with destroyers and cruisers and play cat and mouse with reconnaissance. enemy aircraft at full speed. Fuel autonomy of 7-8 thousand miles will be enough for them to perform the operation. As an option.
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 16 October 2020 18: 32 New
    -5
    Actually, the AUG is in a certain structure - an order. In the center of the aircraft carrier, around the escort ships, because from space it is very clearly visible where the "crowd of civilian steamers", and where the AUG.
    1. Bez 310
      Bez 310 16 October 2020 18: 41 New
      +6
      Quote: TermNachTER
      Actually, the AUG is in a certain structure - an order. In the center of the aircraft carrier, around the escort ships,

      Do not be so naive.
      Sometimes the order goes by itself, and the ABM goes to the side.
    2. timokhin-aa
      16 October 2020 18: 45 New
      +4
      The article about this is written and written how to deal with this problem. You just can't master it.
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 16 October 2020 22: 27 New
    -2
    Have you heard that in the USSR the camouflage of RTR reconnaissance ships was widely used as civilian ships? It looks like an ordinary trawler, but inside there is a "tricky" filling)))) Do you think that the Chinese are worse?
  • Igor Semenov
    Igor Semenov 16 October 2020 18: 25 New
    0
    Does China have real, effective allies who will fit in for them against the United States?
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 16 October 2020 18: 43 New
      +3
      Quote: Igor Semenov
      Does China have real, effective allies who will fit in for them against the United States?

      The DPRK can fit in.
      1. Igor Semenov
        Igor Semenov 16 October 2020 19: 14 New
        0
        No, I asked about effective (more correctly capable) allies
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 16 October 2020 19: 18 New
          +6
          Quote: Igor Semenov
          No, I asked about effective (more correctly capable) allies

          And I do not see such in China. However, the Tajiks-kyogiz are also unlikely to fit into Russia.
          1. Igor Semenov
            Igor Semenov 17 October 2020 13: 27 New
            0
            I completely agree with you. I will also assume that neither China will fit in for Russia, but Russia for China
    2. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 16 October 2020 19: 52 New
      0
      Quote: Igor Semenov
      Does China have real, effective allies who will fit in for them against the United States?

      Igor, this is already a POLITICAL question ...
      I can hardly believe that the States will directly engage with khinchiks. Most likely they will incite neighbors. Disputed territories and interethnic graters are the main provoking factor for undermining the whale economy ...
      The most dangerous graters are between the ELEPHANT and the DRAGON. And both are our partners in a great geostrategic game. We sell OVT to both of them, and we even help the whales to do ...
      But, if we get there ... the Yankees will finish off, then an alliance with the Khinchiks is possible, even as opposed to RI, because The PRC is our neighbor, and the Indians have no common border with us. Consequently, the threat from them is less. And the States are pushing us more and more persistently towards such a decision.
      IMHO.
  • Sanichsan
    Sanichsan 16 October 2020 22: 48 New
    -4
    Quote: Yuri V.A
    If there is such heavy traffic in the area indicated by the example, why not use the radio equipment of your civilian ships or ships of allied countries for review?

    NO! you can't! am
    if this is done, then the author's beautiful fantasy flies into hell wassat
  • Gunther
    Gunther 16 October 2020 07: 15 New
    +4
    Quote: Author
    The average citizen, as a rule, hammers into his head a kind of "anchor"


    It's funny when a couch analyst drives a certain "anchor" into his head:
    "I know what ordinary people think and now I will tell you what they think and how they are mistaken" laughing
    but, the article, on the whole, is decent.
  • rocket757
    rocket757 16 October 2020 07: 23 New
    -4
    No logic is at work here: we have 10 Daggers, which means we can sink 10 aircraft carriers, period.

    Logic, a phenomenon not isolated, but as an addition to ... knowledge, for example.
    At the current level of development of electronic reconnaissance and control of the surrounding space in combination with traditional reconnaissance means, control of the movement of forces and means of the alleged enemy, using powerful computing means, automated control systems, etc. IT IS POSSIBLE to accurately and quickly track the movement of the alleged enemy !!!
    In short it is POSSIBLE, BUT !!! It is very expensive!!! and few people can afford it.
    Therefore, it is logical to assume that no one is continuously engaged in this, because they believe there is no such urgent, constant need for this !!!
    International security, stands on some others .... in short, not about that, the devil is not so terrible / important as many say about him!
    1. Sentinel-vs
      Sentinel-vs 16 October 2020 07: 32 New
      18
      The author examines in detail that it is not so easy to detect and track sea targets quickly, with theses, historical examples and justification. Well, you still declare that it is POSSIBLE, simply because you believe ... Like peas against a wall ...
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 16 October 2020 08: 37 New
        -11
        Author, you, an expert in electronic intelligence methods, in the field of control and so on, so on?
        1. Fan-fan
          Fan-fan 16 October 2020 13: 42 New
          +7
          In any case, the author understands this matter more than you and many of us.
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 16 October 2020 14: 17 New
            -1
            I do not care.
            I don't argue with him about naval affairs AT ALL, not my topic ... but in matters of electronic intelligence and everything else concerning control, fi.
        2. TermNachTer
          TermNachTer 16 October 2020 18: 35 New
          -7
          the author is an expert in all imaginable and inconceivable spheres of human activity))) and served as a hydroacoustics group commander on a BOD, and on a nuclear submarine))) and now it also turns out to be in intelligence, moreover, in all its forms)))
          1. timokhin-aa
            16 October 2020 18: 49 New
            +6
            Stop talking nonsense, please
      2. dragy52rus
        dragy52rus 16 October 2020 08: 41 New
        0
        Quote: Sentinel-vs
        The author examines in detail that it is not so easy to detect and quickly track sea targets,

        if all means of detection are used, then the AUG is also not noticeable, and not separately, as in the article? Or is it still possible to assume that there is an AUG in this area according to indirect or direct data and send an airplane (ships) there, then they will not find it either?
        1. Sentinel-vs
          Sentinel-vs 16 October 2020 08: 49 New
          12
          The article provides historical examples when the USSR, at the peak of its military power, could not control the presence of two AUGs near its shores in the 82nd year. Did you read?
          1. dragy52rus
            dragy52rus 16 October 2020 09: 00 New
            -13
            funny write. now is not 82 years old and there seems to be China being considered, which is now at the peak of its power. have you read it yourself?
            and in the 40s it was even more difficult to find, so now it is even more unrealistic to find.
            1. timokhin-aa
              16 October 2020 11: 03 New
              16
              Now we do not have the same opportunities that the USSR had then.
        2. rocket757
          rocket757 16 October 2020 09: 08 New
          -7
          Quote: dragy52rus
          then they won't find either?

          There used to be a saying "find a needle in a haystack" !!! It was possible to find it, but this process was long, labor-intensive, dreary ... and they would have looked for it if the death of "kashchei" had been concluded in that needle, otherwise naf, naf, someone needed it!
          Do you think that now, with the use of all available technologies, this process seems so difficult ??? Although, if you do not use a super powerful magnet, the process still remains quite dreary! And there is no need to talk about the costs ... although, if you again remember about the life / death of koshchei! then, permissible as needed.
          Oh yes, there is such an aspect, BONE / POLYMER needle, tady OH !!!
          And now AUG, it is unlikely that it is bone or whatever it will be ...
          It's like with the cowboy Joe, elusive, while no one is looking for him.
    2. timokhin-aa
      16 October 2020 11: 14 New
      +9
      At the current level of development of electronic reconnaissance and control of the surrounding space in combination with traditional reconnaissance means, control of the movement of forces and means of the alleged enemy, using powerful computing means, automated control systems, etc. IT IS POSSIBLE to accurately and quickly track the movement of the alleged enemy !!!


      Or you don't need to track if the enemy decided to hide.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 16 October 2020 11: 54 New
        0
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Or you don't need to track if the enemy decided to hide.

        So it's LOGICAL. Such games are played, but the period when, in order to ensure the secrecy of their forces, no one, especially indicatively, began to destroy the enemy's reconnaissance means, did not reach ... thank God that at least they adhere to these rules!
        In the middle, it’s okay, if AUG is found, for example, it’s more by accident ... no one really messes with it! By the way, also because the goals and direction of movement are not particularly hidden by anyone! That's when they go into full secrecy, then YES !!! Everything becomes much more complicated, costly in all respects!
        And again, catching this "elusive Joe" can only be an interested party that has the necessary resources and capabilities!
        1. timokhin-aa
          16 October 2020 11: 56 New
          +6
          So it's LOGICAL. Such games are played, but the period when, in order to ensure the secrecy of their forces, no one, especially indicatively, began to destroy the enemy's reconnaissance means, did not reach ... thank God that at least they adhere to these rules!


          Well, in the article this question is revealed.

          In the middle, it’s okay, if AUG is found, for example, it’s more by accident ... no one really messes with it!


          No, they try to attach a direct tracking ship if there is one.
          It never happens the way you write.
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 16 October 2020 12: 14 New
            +1
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            No, they try to attach a direct tracking ship if there is one.
            It never happens the way you write.

            I WRITTEN about this option, as one of the possible ... but, my topic is electronic methods of reconnaissance and control, and in the navy, my work was precisely in this area. How naval intelligence functions, this is my view from the outside ...
            I was present during several exercises of the fleet, on ships of the SSV - *** but again, my view from the outside ...
  • prodi
    prodi 16 October 2020 07: 25 New
    -2
    in my opinion, it's all the same obvious that it's cheaper for us to focus on planes and missiles, rather than aircraft carriers and ships
  • 72jora72
    72jora72 16 October 2020 07: 29 New
    +8
    Why is it harmful? The point is that an idea that has taken possession of the masses becomes a material force. If the whole society believes that we can already beat any enemy with one left and there is no need to do anything, everything has already been done,
    Exactly about Armenia ........
  • Bez 310
    Bez 310 16 October 2020 07: 56 New
    36
    Great article!
    I had to look for aircraft carriers, it is very difficult, and we did not always find them ...
    And I also had to "strike" an aircraft carrier as part of the Tu-22m2 regiment.
    By the way, the AVM in this case was discovered quite by accident, the captain of our
    a civilian vessel "saw with his eyes", and immediately reported on command.
    In general, the author explained in a popular form what a difficult opponent these AUG are.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2020 08: 23 New
      33
      Quote: Bez 310
      Great article!

      Without a doubt. There is only one problem - it is not read by those to whom it was addressed. Too complicated and too many letters ...
      Maybe start drawing comics for VO? laughing
      1. Bez 310
        Bez 310 16 October 2020 08: 25 New
        14
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Maybe start drawing comics for VO?

        As an option...
        1. Igor Semenov
          Igor Semenov 16 October 2020 18: 35 New
          +7
          What's the option? This is genius! Only pictures no more than 10. They will not master anymore laughing
      2. Mikhail m
        Mikhail m 16 October 2020 09: 03 New
        15
        Not necessary for VO, fellow countryman. Literate people have not yet disappeared here. But for the State Duma and the government it will not hurt. And the further into the future, the more there will be a need to present information in comics. With text no more than 3-5 words. Otherwise, they won't just read.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2020 09: 16 New
          15
          Quote: Mikhail M
          But for the State Duma and the government it will not hurt.

          "And there is no objection to that!" (from)
          Quote: Mikhail M
          Literate people have not yet disappeared here

          Don't get it wrong, I didn't mean all the readers. Only those who are sincerely sure that we will drown 5 AUG with 10 Zircons ...
          1. Fan-fan
            Fan-fan 16 October 2020 13: 53 New
            12
            And what do you want, the level of knowledge of a common man in the street is insignificant, they believe in any anti-scientific bilibery. Remember how most of our citizens were completely delighted when someone threw in information about how our Su-24 supposedly "Khibiny" completely "turned off" the American destroyer "Donald Cook", and in fact many still believe in this nonsense ...
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2020 14: 39 New
              +8
              Quote: Fan-Fan
              Remember how most of our citizens were completely delighted when someone threw in information about how our Su-24 supposedly "Khibiny" completely "turned off" the American destroyer "Donald Cook"

              Do not remind :)))))))))))))
      3. Grandfather
        Grandfather 16 October 2020 09: 05 New
        +9
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: Bez 310
        Great article!

        Without a doubt. There is only one problem - it is not read by those to whom it was addressed. Too complicated and too many letters ...
        Maybe start drawing comics for VO? laughing

        Thought! USE students will like it! good
      4. Lex_is
        Lex_is 16 October 2020 09: 47 New
        +9
        Will not help.
        People do not want difficulties and understand something.
        They want to know that everything will be fine and we will definitely win.
        So comics with Zircons, destroying defenseless aircraft carriers, and blazing in powerlessness US admirals - will go with a bang, and comics that can cause doubt have no chance.
        1. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 16 October 2020 20: 58 New
          +4
          Quote: Lex_is
          comics with Zircons destroying defenseless aircraft carriers and US admirals blazing in powerlessness - will go with a bang,

          It seems that there have already been attempts:
          1. Lex_is
            Lex_is 18 October 2020 05: 10 New
            +3
            Beauty!
            Here it is!
            Simple, clear, visual and fills the heart with joy!
            And then he wrote here, with a defeatist bias, sowing doubts ...
        2. victor50
          victor50 17 October 2020 16: 05 New
          +2
          Quote: Lex_is
          They want to know that everything will be fine and we will definitely win.

          And, most importantly, they are not involved. Otherwise, they would have pondered how to use even an untrained Kalashnikov, to resist modern weapons.
          1. Lex_is
            Lex_is 18 October 2020 05: 29 New
            +1
            The problem here is that modern weapons have become so complex that they require a lot of knowledge in order to simply realize the complexity of the problem.

            Yes, and not modern the same.

            Here I am reading with amazement about the ease of intercepting and escorting the AUG trawler and wondering:
            Do these people have at least a little idea of ​​the problem of calculating the interception by a patrol boat at 22 knots of a feeder peacefully dripping at a speed of 18 knots, 100 miles away from the AIS? It's far from just drawing a line on the map.
      5. Beregovic_1
        Beregovic_1 16 October 2020 14: 36 New
        +8
        There is only one problem - it is not read by those to whom it was addressed. Too complicated and too many letters ...
        We are waiting for the Operator and Vladimir 1155 .... Right now, they will smash to smithereens by the homing and constantly guarding all the AUG "Poseidons", and the second will tell you that the "Orekhovo-Zuevo" MRK will be beaten in one fell swoop, and the aircraft carrier will be replaced with social programs.
      6. ZEMCH
        ZEMCH 16 October 2020 19: 08 New
        11
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Without a doubt. There is only one problem - it is not read by those to whom it was addressed. Too complicated and too many letters ...
        Maybe start drawing comics for VO?

        The problem is in the Main Command of our fleet, when you bring documents, and you are denied admission, because the paper clips are of the wrong color))) From practice
        1. Mikhail m
          Mikhail m 16 October 2020 20: 32 New
          0
          Quote: ZEMCH
          and you are denied admission because the paper clips are of the wrong color)))

          Serdyukovshchina has not yet been withdrawn ??? am Little green men in memory.
          1. ZEMCH
            ZEMCH 16 October 2020 23: 11 New
            +4
            It was in 2018)))
    2. Firelake
      Firelake 16 October 2020 09: 16 New
      11
      Why write this? Now they will start throwing slops at you. Why? Because the sofa has its own reality. And I absolutely agree with you: aug is a very difficult target to search for and no less difficult to destroy. The MPA in the USSR was a force. Like now xs ...
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2020 09: 33 New
        13
        Quote: FireLake
        The MPA in the USSR was a force.

        Without any doubt. Real strength.
        Quote: FireLake
        Like now xs ...

        And now there is no MPA
        1. Firelake
          Firelake 16 October 2020 10: 58 New
          +4
          It is clear that no. But our highbrow comrades probably have some thoughts ... although I'm not sure. MRA must be revived, of course. Moreover, my personal opinion is much more important than an aircraft carrier for Russia. But I think, as always, there is no money, opportunities and other garbage as our officials usually cover up their impotence.
          1. timokhin-aa
            16 October 2020 13: 31 New
            +6
            But our highbrow comrades probably have some thoughts ...


            There is. The last attempt to rebuild something similar to the MPA ended a year ago.
            The industry got in at the wrong time in the face of its worst representatives.
            1. Firelake
              Firelake 16 October 2020 14: 14 New
              +2
              This has never happened, and here again ...
              Sad of course ...
              1. Bez 310
                Bez 310 16 October 2020 14: 54 New
                +6
                Quote: FireLake
                Sad of course ...

                Not only is this sad.
                It is also sad that long-range aircraft will not be able to
                nothing to do with the AUG.
                And the sad thing is that we don't have any intelligence
                aviation, and anti-submarine aircraft almost never
                left.
                I don't even know where we are not sad ...
                1. Igor Semenov
                  Igor Semenov 16 October 2020 18: 43 New
                  +3
                  As where? on doneunas.ru
                  1. Bez 310
                    Bez 310 16 October 2020 18: 49 New
                    +9
                    Quote: Igor Semenov
                    on doneunas.ru

                    Looked ... It's a shame ...
                    It's like in the current army - a couple flew "for
                    corner ", and in all the media we start to be proud.
                    And before the regiment flew "to strike" for real
                    AVM, and nobody knows. And today would "break
                    two button accordions ", marking such a" victory. "Well, as in
                    that case with the Su-24 and Khibiny.
          2. ZEMCH
            ZEMCH 16 October 2020 19: 13 New
            +7
            Quote: FireLake
            It is clear that no. But our highbrow comrades probably have some thoughts ... although I'm not sure. MRA must be revived, of course. Moreover, my personal opinion is much more important than an aircraft carrier for Russia. But I think, as always, there is no money, opportunities and other garbage as our officials usually cover up their impotence.

            It is necessary not only to revive the MPA, but also the unified management of the Navy, what a mess you cannot even imagine now)))
            1. timokhin-aa
              16 October 2020 19: 39 New
              +4
              The first link in the article is to a mess)
              1. ZEMCH
                ZEMCH 16 October 2020 23: 13 New
                +5
                The link is like this, to the "glove compartment"))), but what's going on is a mess (it's forbidden to be tougher on the VO website)
                1. timokhin-aa
                  17 October 2020 00: 06 New
                  +3
                  Well, you can see better from the inside, but in general, when the type of the Armed Forces is subordinated to regional associations of another type of Armed Forces, with the simultaneous elimination of command structures, I do not even know what could be worse than that.
                  1. ZEMCH
                    ZEMCH 17 October 2020 00: 07 New
                    +5
                    Believe me, Alexander, maybe (((
    3. rocket757
      rocket757 16 October 2020 09: 19 New
      -11
      Quote: Bez 310
      I had to look for aircraft carriers, it is very difficult, and we did not always find them ...

      For example, not far from the AUG there is some kind of "talkative" boat, which periodically broadcasts its coordinates !!! Then would they find it, on a tip?
      And after all, you can't drive him away at all, neutral waters .... although, minke whales, nervous guys, they can, they can ... and in an extreme period, they will immediately sew an article for espionage and tady OH! There are other methods of controlling the movement of an object of interest, acceptable or not, they just ARE. And all serious military men, and other interested guys, HAVE centers for the automated processing of huge amounts of intelligence data.
      AUG is not a needle in a haystack, there will be when they purposefully search ... yes, a needle is also found now, without any problems ... however, it will have to be spent on equipment, well, here there is a desire and opportunities, you can do with using the sirloin to search ...
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2020 09: 35 New
        13
        Quote: rocket757
        For example, not far from the AUG there is some kind of "talkative" boat, which periodically broadcasts its coordinates !!! Then would they find it, on a tip?

        Wow. They explain to you that AUG is very difficult to find. You in response: "we need to find the AUG, assign an observer to it and he will tell us everything"
        Do you see any hole in the logic?
        1. rocket757
          rocket757 16 October 2020 09: 47 New
          -9
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Do you see any hole in the logic?

          AUG from MARS fell or left its place of permanent basing?
          how is it with logic?
          Nothing appears ANYWHERE, there is a starting point, and to the final one you can simply "carry out" ... then, this is just an OPTION, not the most original, by the way.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 16 October 2020 13: 47 New
            +6
            Quote: rocket757
            AUG from MARS fell or left its place of permanent basing?
            how is it with logic?

            Logic dictates that the concept of a "talkative boat" ultimately leads us to the need to accompany the AUG with the forces of our EMs, and even better - RRC. smile
            Because to track the AUG, you will have to send a "boat" with seaworthiness equal to AB and a speed of 25-28 knots. And along the way, the admirals also want 146% that this ship "in hour H" could disrupt the rise of the AB air group.
            1. rocket757
              rocket757 16 October 2020 14: 19 New
              -2
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Logic suggests that the concept of a "talkative boat"

              Did you prove that AUG cannot be found in the okey?
              1. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 16 October 2020 14: 48 New
                +4
                Quote: rocket757
                Did you prove that AUG cannot be found in the okey?

                Are you going to directly monitor the AUG in wartime? wink
                All the available experience in detecting AUG has one significant drawback - it is all peacetime experience. When you can hang your SSV or EM / BOD "on the tail" of the AUG. When the air reconnaissance planners calmly walk the routes. When a "harpoon" does not fly immediately at the mark, suddenly "repainted" from a peaceful ship to a ship.
                1. rocket757
                  rocket757 16 October 2020 14: 56 New
                  -5
                  Peaceful, wartime, conditions will be completely different!
                  So what is the conversation about?
                  Can you find AUG in the okey NOW or not?
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 16 October 2020 16: 06 New
                    +8
                    Quote: rocket757
                    Can you find AUG in the okey NOW or not?

                    It is possible only if AUG is substituted. As in its time in Mediterranean, when AUG was spotted thanks to television broadcasting a report on the passage of AV by the Suez Canal. smile
                    By the way, is "now" in theory or in practice? Because in practice, with the current state of our Armed Forces in general and the Navy in particular, the detection of AUG will be a big problem. To ensure a more or less acceptable probability of detection and correct classification of the target, you will have to transfer all the VKS to the Navy. And that will not help much - long-range scouts have long since died.

                    This detection was not guaranteed even during the late USSR with its navy, when, for example, the Northern Fleet racked their brains: aircraft carrier vehicles are regularly detected in the air, but the AV itself is not. We found AB only when he finished the work and was about to leave - his carcass crawled out of the fjords. But it was not just anywhere, but literally in front of the "bastion" of the Northern Fleet, where any goal in theory should have been 100% detected.
                    1. rocket757
                      rocket757 16 October 2020 18: 08 New
                      -1
                      Blessed is he who believes ...
                    2. timokhin-aa
                      16 October 2020 18: 53 New
                      +3
                      I still think the prologue from Oceans ventured by John Lehman to translate, just about that.
          2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 October 2020 14: 46 New
            +9
            Quote: rocket757
            AUG from MARS fell or left its place of permanent basing?

            From places of permanent deployment
            Quote: rocket757
            Nothing appears ANYWHERE, there is a starting point, and to the final one you can simply "conduct" ...

            Victor, now please strain and THINK how it will look in practice.
            You do not know when AB left the base. That is, you must ensure the constant presence of a sufficient number of escort ships at American bases. (by the number of AVs outgoing). The total number of such ships will be significantly greater than AB.
            Next, the classic American way out. The escort and supply ships leave (they have a ceremonial speed of up to 18 knots of economic speed. A day, two, three ... Then AB leaves the base under the cover of the OVR defense forces. alone for a meeting with security at a predetermined point.
            What will you catch up with? He is, in fact, ATOMIC, he can shove at his 30 knots for years. And in order to accompany him, you will need ... right, the atomic "pointer". So if you build 10 atomic RRCs against 20 atomic AB, it will work. But - only in peacetime, since in wartime it will not be possible to take AB for escort in this way for obvious reasons
          3. Avior
            Avior 16 October 2020 14: 51 New
            +3
            Actually, a group from an American frigate with suspicion of piracy will land on such a boat, conduct a search, delay it for several hours, and then apologize and release.
            And it will be possible to search for AUG again.
            1. rocket757
              rocket757 16 October 2020 15: 00 New
              -3
              Quote: Avior
              Actually, a group from an American frigate will land on such a boat with suspicion

              On the ship is the naval flag of a potential enemy, the ship is out of the territorial waters of anyone !!! Are you going to land on it ??? Well, well, the flag is in your hands, you can even grab a star-striped one.
              1. Avior
                Avior 16 October 2020 15: 17 New
                +4
                When it comes to peacetime, tracking aug is simplified. But even at the same time, it is possible to disrupt the observation by passing through some ally's terrorists.
                But if we are talking about the military, you can forget about the idea of ​​the navy flag for tracking. Drowned.
                Purchased neutrals - this option is possible. But it can be easily solved
                1. rocket757
                  rocket757 16 October 2020 18: 04 New
                  -1
                  Everyone somehow forgets that in a special situation they will drown ALL, from all sides of the conflict.
                  That is why I don’t fly, don’t swim, don’t crawl and don’t walk, where it’s not supposed, that those who are supposed to remember about it.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 16 October 2020 18: 07 New
                    +3
                    It should be very special.
                    In this case, I think it's easier to delay for a while.
                    And it's physically difficult to drown everyone, the traffic there is huge
              2. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 16 October 2020 22: 39 New
                -3
                Ship (vessel) yavl. the territory of the state, the flag of which he carries)))) the landing of the inspection group can be stopped by weapons. And if, nevertheless, they landed, it can be regarded as an act of aggression, with all that it implies.
                1. timokhin-aa
                  16 October 2020 23: 43 New
                  +3

                  And again there is a discrepancy with reality.
                  Can you not be wrong at least once in your life?
                  1. TermNachTer
                    TermNachTer 17 October 2020 10: 37 New
                    -3
                    Ha-ha three times))))) arrival by invitation and disembarkation of the inspection group)))) do you catch the difference?))))
                    1. timokhin-aa
                      18 October 2020 09: 13 New
                      +2
                      This was the landing of the inspection group with the seizure of the tanker and its hijacking. The cargo was confiscated, the flag was taken as a trophy.
                      1. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 18 October 2020 09: 37 New
                        +1
                        A tanker is not a ship or an auxiliary vessel of the Navy, it has no weapons. But in any case, it is piracy, with all that it implies.
                      2. Avior
                        Avior 18 October 2020 23: 47 New
                        +1
                        If we are talking about a ship under the flag of the enemy's navy, it will be drowned or captured in time of war.
                        If in peace, they will pass through the terrorists of some ally so that they have to lose sight while you go around, for example.
                        The second option is the Aug makes a dash at full speed to the rendezvous point with the supply vessels, there refueling and further. And there will be no one to refuel your ship.
                        And nobody cares about it in peacetime.
                      3. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 19 October 2020 09: 03 New
                        0
                        This is why the auxiliary ships of the Navy fly under the military flag and they are armed. And accordingly, they can use these weapons in accordance with the Charter. Everyone knows this and to attack him - at first they will think, but do I need it?
                      4. Avior
                        Avior 19 October 2020 09: 09 New
                        0
                        if in peacetime, no one will attack, but there is little sense in tracking, as they did a hundred times.
                        and the military will sink quickly.
                        You decide.
                      5. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 19 October 2020 09: 12 New
                        0
                        There is usually a gap between peacetime and war. The truth is sometimes quite small.
                      6. Avior
                        Avior 19 October 2020 09: 47 New
                        +2
                        then intermediate options are possible depending on the circumstances
                        For example, accidental collision with a civilian vessel with loss of speed.
                        Under some Panamanian or Moldovan flag.
                      7. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 19 October 2020 09: 54 New
                        0
                        So already almost all, with the exception of China and Russia, have transferred their ships "under flags of convenience" - this is a worldwide practice. The United States, Britain and many others are guilty of this.
                      8. Avior
                        Avior 19 October 2020 10: 11 New
                        +1
                        a warship of this kind can simply be detained under a convenient pretext for a while - suspicion of piracy, for example.
                      9. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 19 October 2020 10: 58 New
                        -1
                        The delay of a ship in neutral waters is piracy. Suspicions must then be proven in court, because the insurance company that insured the ship and cargo can roll out such claims for violation of the delivery time, which will not seem to anyone.
                      10. Lex_is
                        Lex_is 19 October 2020 11: 06 New
                        +1
                        Funny.
                        For the last twenty years, not only have they been delayed, sometimes cruise missiles have been arriving in tankers (and sometimes they are trying to fly in destroyers under the stars and stripes) and nothing, Iran has not yet gone bankrupt on payments to insurance companies.
                        And how many merchant ships are arrested on suspicion of drug trafficking is beyond count.
                      11. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 19 October 2020 11: 41 New
                        -1
                        When drug trafficking is proven, there are no questions. But if the ship was stopped and nothing was found, then the claim from the insurer and the MMP.
                      12. Lex_is
                        Lex_is 19 October 2020 11: 45 New
                        +1
                        No. Insurance companies do not file any claims against states, and no one has ever heard of such claims.

                        Try to find at least one similar case.
                      13. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 19 October 2020 12: 11 New
                        -1
                        In normal countries, firms file lawsuits against the state and win in court. If you have not heard, it does not mean that it is not.
                      14. Lex_is
                        Lex_is 19 October 2020 12: 17 New
                        +1
                        I already wrote to you:
                        Give at least one example of such a lawsuit in response to the actions of the Navy of any country.
                        You can start with the numerous tankers arrested and damaged in the bay.
                      15. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 19 October 2020 12: 58 New
                        0
                        If you are hinting at the delay by Iran, two British tankers, then I want to remind you about the seizure of an Iranian tanker, near Gibraltar. The Britons played a little bit, probably forgot that they no longer "rule the seas"))) however, British shipping companies can sue Iran))))
                      16. Lex_is
                        Lex_is 19 October 2020 13: 05 New
                        0
                        British shipping companies may sue Iran

                        That is when and if they present and win - then we will say that this is an established practice.
                        So far, there have been no such cases.
                      17. TermNachTer
                        TermNachTer 19 October 2020 13: 09 New
                        +1
                        They may and will win, but I strongly doubt that Iran will pay them anything on these claims. But the fact is that the mattress makers with their "sixes" themselves put Iran outside the legal framework.
  • Lex_is
    Lex_is 19 October 2020 10: 29 New
    +1
    accidental collision with a civilian vessel with loss of speed.


    This is from the realm of fantasy, unrealistic and absolutely unnecessary.

    But no one bothers to block the observer with one of the escort ships.
    It's easy, real, and practiced often.
    It is very difficult to catch up with the AUG when the destroyer squeezes you out.
    Passages in dangerous proximity, dangerous crossing of the course - the arsenal of means is large, up to the bulk.
    This is not a passenger car, after circulation, you need to lie down again for 10-15 minutes, 2-3 evasive maneuvers and you can forget about AUG.
  • Avior
    Avior 19 October 2020 10: 38 New
    +2
    it refers to the situation immediately before the outbreak of hostilities.
    but it may be as you described.
    I just gave an example that you can block.
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 16 October 2020 22: 35 New
    -4
    Considering how many Chinese live in the United States, especially on the West Coast))) and how many of them work for Chinese intelligence. I think that no pelvis leaves the ports of the West Coast, so that in 15-20 minutes they would not know about it in Beijing.
  • Beregovic_1
    Beregovic_1 16 October 2020 14: 42 New
    +3
    By no means, there is logic in his version. Under the USSR, the scouts accompanied the AUG, and nowadays they are escorted if they can keep up, but the scout is a seiner, and his move is 12-16 knots ... You can get away from him.
    1. rocket757
      rocket757 16 October 2020 15: 01 New
      -3
      The restrictions are purely economic ... yes, we squandered the power we inherited from our ancestors, alas and ah!
    2. Avior
      Avior 16 October 2020 18: 12 New
      +2
      I know that the warships were escorted, I have not heard about the seiners.
      1. Beregovic_1
        Beregovic_1 16 October 2020 18: 25 New
        0
        Reconnaissance ships were built and special ("Ivan Khurs", "Karelia" with 18 full nodes) and there are also built on the basis of mass civilians, including seiners. Recently, an article was about reconnaissance ships of the USSR Navy.
        1. Avior
          Avior 16 October 2020 18: 34 New
          +1
          I know about scouts, but it's hard to use them to escort the Augs.
          They put a warship for escort and target designation, and in the distance a group.
          When ordered, the group could strike at the Aug at any time.
          And an accidental civilian ship - so it is unmasked after a few hours
          1. Beregovic_1
            Beregovic_1 16 October 2020 18: 58 New
            +3
            During the Soviet era, there were warships, including artillery cruisers. I know for sure that recently "Yuri Ivanov" ran after Avik. I read the physical fields. the Americans politely allowed and did not open at speed.
        2. rocket757
          rocket757 16 October 2020 23: 03 New
          +1
          Quote: Beregovyhok_1
          Intelligence ships were built and special

          Reconnaissance ships have a different function, for escorting something else is desirable, it can be simpler.
          Reconnaissance forces were pulled up, usually to the place where maneuvers, exercises were conducted, where more "you can sniff out"
          I had to install equipment on the SSV-516, set it up, and attend training sessions.
          And now, which ones are still in the ranks, I do not know ... they began to make new ones, BUT, when all the losses have been replenished, no one knows.
  • Bez 310
    Bez 310 16 October 2020 10: 42 New
    14
    Quote: rocket757
    AUG is not a needle in a haystack

    But finding it in the ocean is difficult even in peacetime.
    And the most important thing is to find AUG in a timely manner.
    Not later, not someday, but at a given time.
    1. rocket757
      rocket757 16 October 2020 10: 44 New
      -8
      Quote: Bez 310
      But finding it in the ocean is difficult even in peacetime.
      And the most important thing is to find AUG in a timely manner.
      Not later, not someday, but at a given time.

      Question - WHY ???
      1. Bez 310
        Bez 310 16 October 2020 10: 54 New
        15
        Quote: rocket757
        Question - WHY ???

        To plan ahead and strike.
        By the way, here's a little story about the search for AUG (side view).

        Regular work

        I was slowly getting ready for the morning formation, there were no "acute" tasks, the day promised to be calm. But then the phone rang, the voice of the senior navigator came out of the tube:
        - You don't have to go to the formation, let's go straight to the headquarters.
        - And what, war?
        - Until the war, but a very similar state in the regiment, in an hour and a half
        the plane with the Commander lands, we release a couple to search for an aircraft carrier, you are the navigator on duty at the command post.
        - No rest from you, I will now.
        There is a slight panic at the headquarters, everyone is fussing, but no one really knows anything, the Commander will bring all the news. The navigator, on command from the command post (CP) of the Pacific Fleet Air Force, gave an "urgent plan" an application for the flight of a Tu-142 pair to the northwestern part of the Pacific Ocean, searching for ships in the area of ​​1000 km by 1000 km.
        The “conditions” came in a bullet at the request, wrote down these “conditions”, went to the KDP, to the pre-flight instructions class, we will wait for the Commander. Sat Tu-134, the Commander was brought to the class. I have known our Commander for a long time, but this was the first time I saw him so nervous.
        Without any "kissing and hugging," he got down to business - "The Commander-in-Chief of the Navy set the task - to find an aircraft carrier strike group (AUG) on the transition by sea. I made a decision - to carry out a search with a pair of Tu-142 in a given area, take off - when ready, report on detection - immediately. "
        Just like that, simple and unpretentious, without any details and clarifications ... While everyone was digesting the received task, the senior navigator and I thought over the search route, decided to fly to the center of the region, and from there look for the aircraft carrier in a "divergent box".
        We gave the crews pre-flight instructions - the meteorologist told about the weather in the area, I told about the flight route, the peculiarities of work in the area, the signalman clarified the frequencies and the communication procedure. The RP brought the order of takeoff, collecting a pair, recalled the peculiarities of lowering to a low altitude, the commander drew attention to the observance of safety measures.
        The Commander took the floor, aimed at completing the task, recalled an instant report when a target was detected, ordered to take digital photo and video equipment on board.
        I grumbled involuntarily ... The commander noticed:
        - What?
        - Where can I get them?
        - And what, you have no regiment?
        - Are they in some regiment? The state is not allowed ...
        - Well, why are you being clever? Let the personal ones take it, we will deal with the states later, now we need to complete the task.
        Then I didn't become clever, the Commander was not in the mood to bicker with him, the crews had already taken everything without a command.
        The crews went under the planes, the leadership group, the Commander, and the regiment commander climbed to the tower.
        The commander approached the huge tablet, looked longingly at the "blue sea", at the route and the search area that my assistant had already drawn, and asked:
        - What time can I expect a report on the discovery?
        - To the area - two hours of flight, another hour - for the initial examination,
        hence, not earlier than three hours after take-off.
        - Can I go faster?
        - If there was any data on the last location of the aircraft carrier,
        the search route could be optimized.
        - Ah, damn it ... that's the same ...
        Digging in his pockets, the Commander pulled out a crumpled piece of paper and handed it to me. Having studied this document, I did not find anything in it, except for the numbers - 92, and looked inquiringly at the Commander.
        - Well ... this is the bearing, by which the market was spotted on the air, and the operation of the RES.
        - What bearing, where did the bearing come from, at what time was it received?
        - Well, how do I know? Someone gave me before the flight ... Will it help?
        - Well, I don't even know how to tell you ... let's try to attach somewhere ... And what about the intelligence department?
        - Fuck they all ...! I was picked up at night by the Commander-in-Chief personally, set a task, urgently to find, the Navy's reconnaissance does not know anything, and I - look, damn it ..., a needle in a haystack ... You have only one hope. Find it?
        - Where are we going?
        The pair took off, gathered, headed for the area of ​​work. The regiment commander tried to quietly doze off in his chair, and the Commander made various attempts to clarify the location of the AUG - he called Vladivostok, the Air Force and the Fleet, but no clarifying information was received.
        Frustrated, the Commander paced the cramped space of the control room, introducing nervousness into the work of the leadership group, not allowing us to doze off during the flight to the area of ​​work.
        The crews routinely reported the passage of route points, the weather, the Commander nervously reacted to all these reports:
        - Well, what is it?
        - Yes, they have not yet reached the area, they only report on the passage of points.
        - Yes, when already? !!!
        - I expect the first report from the region in an hour.
        - Maybe you need some help?
        - The crews do their best, the main thing is not to interfere with them, not to jerk them, and to make them nervous.
        - What do you mean?
        - Comrade Commander! I understand everything, the most difficult task from the "very top", but everything possible is already being done, the planes are on the way, maybe you need a little rest? Yes, and we will be calmer, because we have to sit here for another ten hours ...
        - So what?
        - Maybe you should go to the canteen, then hold some meeting with the unit commanders, see the garrison, well, in general, get distracted ...
        - Okay, I understand you, I'm preventing you from decomposing ... I will go to the garrison, they will report to you my place, as soon as something is found, you will immediately inform me by phone.
        - There is!

        The commander took the regiment commander and went to the garrison, leaving us a UAZ car for sending emergency messages, and we settled down more comfortably in our chairs and started dozing, waiting for messages.
        Two hours later, the crews reported on the discovery of the AUG, determined the location, composition, course and course, and began tracking. Having learned from the operational duty officer the place of the Commander, I informed him about the detection of the target, after 20 minutes he flew into the control room.
        After talking with the operational air force, the Commander reported to Moscow on the discovery of the aircraft carrier, and, for the first time since arrival, calmly exhaled:
        - Well done, thanks.
        - Yes, we have nothing to do with, these are all crews ...
        - And they are great, and all of you! - Is my plane ready?
        - Ready, crew under the plane.
        - I flew to Vladik, and you follow the AUG there, all other teams - through the operational air force.
        The commander flew away, and we sat on the control tower for another eight hours until the crews returned. While we sat and dozed, I thought that being a general is not so sweet as it seems from the outside.

        By the way, none of the regiment was rewarded for completing the assigned task. And what to encourage? Normal work.
        1. rocket757
          rocket757 16 October 2020 11: 42 New
          -5
          Quote: Bez 310
          Normal work.

          Normal work ... that's the way it is. But the question remained open, why look for AUG somewhere out there in the ocean, when it is not the main concern of the military leadership ... however, as a training task, it is very useful, but I doubt that at present such a task will be set only for reconnaissance aviation ... For this, I believe, a whole range of technical and organizational measures is provided !!! Everything is as it is done NOW! It is a complex, which means a rather time-consuming and expensive process, but this is the only way to ensure the efficient execution of complex tasks.
          1. Bez 310
            Bez 310 16 October 2020 12: 16 New
            +8
            Quote: rocket757
            For this, I believe, a whole range of technical and organizational measures is provided !!!

            I answer the question - WHY?
            For the Navy, AUG is the main goal, and when the AUG enters the operating room
            the zone of the fleet, its place must be known constantly.
            And now a question for you - what does this "complex"
            ... activities "that you are talking about? If there is no specific
            answer, then do not strain, I already understood that you are not very
            know the issue under discussion.
            1. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 16 October 2020 21: 32 New
              -1
              Quote: Bez 310
              For the Navy, AUG is the main goal,

              For the Navy, the main target has always been the enemy's SSBN ... yes
              1. Bez 310
                Bez 310 16 October 2020 21: 42 New
                +7
                Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
                SSBN adversary ...

                Um ... Of course, SSBN, that's the target ...
                But much more important is ensuring combat
                stability of our SSBNs, which means that speech
                it's not about SSBNs.
                Would you like to talk about this?
                Write an article, we will discuss it with the whole world.
                And now we are discussing aircraft carriers, about which
                can be said a little differently - an important goal,
                one of the priority, etc. ...
          2. Beregovic_1
            Beregovic_1 16 October 2020 18: 36 New
            +3
            But the question remained open, why look for AUG somewhere in the ocean,
            And you don't need to look for it in the ocean, especially in the Indian or the Atlantic. We need to know exactly where he is, if he is within reach of our weapons, and certainly if he can reach our targets with his own weapons.
            1. rocket757
              rocket757 16 October 2020 19: 19 New
              -3
              Quote: Beregovyhok_1
              And you don't need to look for him in the ocean

              There is point A, base or place of previous deployment.
              There is point B where it should be in order to pose a threat to something, someone ... and everything in between is not so important.
              The area of ​​point B may be extensive, but a serious enemy is called such because it has its own means of control, so that unexpected "goodies" did not fall on its head.
              1. timokhin-aa
                17 October 2020 00: 03 New
                +4
                There is point B where it should be in order to pose a threat to something


                But you don't know him.
      2. timokhin-aa
        16 October 2020 11: 04 New
        11
        You have not seen an example in the text with "getting out of the rubble"?
      3. 911sx
        911sx 19 October 2020 04: 08 New
        0
        To destroy in case of war, if possible.
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 16 October 2020 18: 38 New
    -2
    How long did it take for the information from the steamer in the middle of the Pacific Ocean to go through all the authorities and reach the performers?))) Or the captain deviated from the course and accompanied the AUG?))) What is the speed of the steamer? Do you think the AUG commander does not monitor the environment and does not avoid unnecessary detection?
  • dragy52rus
    dragy52rus 16 October 2020 08: 35 New
    -5
    from the first photo it is easy to determine where the ships are going, this is obvious, you just need to take the second one in a couple of hours and the motion vector is immediately clear.
    unexpectedly from around the corner AUG decided to go. are they not grazed while they are in port? or no one is interested in where the group from the port moved, but only in the middle of the ocean did they check?
    for convenience, we will not consider the traffic of ships. and then see what kind of traffic. How will AUG hide from traffic?
    the Chinese, knowing that they have places where they do not view from satellites, so planes and ships in these places do not fly or go either. why control?
    the feeling that the article is how to hide from all means of observation separately, if we introduce such restrictions on the search.
    1. rocket757
      rocket757 16 October 2020 09: 25 New
      -8
      Quote: dragy52rus
      how to hide from all means of observation separately, if we introduce such restrictions on the search.

      In, in! I am always pinned by statements / questions, can we defend ourselves against some kind of outside attack !!! I just can't imagine that WE will just fight back, fight back, fight back ... like to break into the answer to us in any way ??? No one even wants to think that after the arrival of the first "hello", they will fly there and ... in short, there will be nothing to send "greetings" and there is no one!
      1. dragy52rus
        dragy52rus 16 October 2020 09: 33 New
        -9
        I think the next article will be "how easy it is to find a Russian submarine with vigorous loaves on board." and all the methods by which AUG cannot be found will be given. )))
    2. Avior
      Avior 16 October 2020 09: 33 New
      +8
      You should have read the article more carefully.
      There, the situation is played along with the Chinese - no clouds in the sky.
      In reality, aau will go just under the cover of this cloudiness, and there will be a lot of holes in the field of satellites
      1. dragy52rus
        dragy52rus 16 October 2020 09: 41 New
        -5
        the clouds became not transparent to the radio?
        China does not control satellite blind spots at all? all the reconnaissance aircraft at the airfields, and the surface and submarine fleets in the port?
        a raised air wing with an AUG 500 km away will remain invisible to radars? Or are they looking the other way at this time? or will they fly low, low?
        1. Avior
          Avior 16 October 2020 09: 49 New
          10
          You should still read the article.
          And about the zone of direct radio visibility too, by the way.
          1. dragy52rus
            dragy52rus 16 October 2020 09: 54 New
            -10
            Does ZGRLS not exist? or is it different?

            China does not control satellite blind spots at all? I am very interested in the answer to this question.
            How do clouds affect satellite stealth?
            1. Avior
              Avior 16 October 2020 10: 03 New
              +9
              Zarls is a weapon of peacetime.
              Noise immunity is very low.
              Doppler filtering is difficult to apply to ships.
              The stability of work is also low.
              Similarly for satellites.
              Active - have poor noise immunity due to the low power of the radar satellites.
              Passive - have a problem with false signals.
              Really obtain information with the help of optical reconnaissance.
              Moreover, it is quite possible to shoot down low-orbit high-resolution ones, the Americans have proved it.
              There are other blind spot problems as well.
              For example, outside coastal fighters, a reconnaissance aircraft can be shot down without an aircraft carrier - one that has taken off with refueling in an ambush into such a zone by a detachment of enemy forces for this purpose.
              Of course, they track, but that does not mean that everything and always.
              Combat operations are generally probabilistic.
              1. dragy52rus
                dragy52rus 16 October 2020 10: 24 New
                -8
                here we come to the most interesting.
                and so, the world is on the brink of war (otherwise there is no point in bombing the territory, well, not for the sake of your own pleasure?). AUG disappears from the home base, although as it disappears, no one cares whether they are on a campaign or not. satellites are shot down, no one cares again, well, they shot down and shot down. and we will not change the orbit, let it fly as it did, we have no goal to find AUG by all means. ZGRLS stopped transmitting information. but do not care. can we raise the aircraft and withdraw the ships. what for? there is no reason to worry. can we still send one scout without cover? lets do it. he disappeared and does not answer. nothing terrible happens, there is no reason to worry.
                without the counteraction of coastal aviation and air defense of the enemy, he bombed, because not a single plane got into the direct radio line of sight. can zhahnim on the enemy of nuclear weapons? and why, like there is no reason? and it is not known who it is?
                1. Avior
                  Avior 16 October 2020 11: 17 New
                  +9
                  We are talking about military operations.
                  Otherwise, what is the discussion at all.

                  The satellite can be shot down, maybe not - it depends on the level of hostilities, but in reality there is such a possibility.
                  Interference will be put - do not go to the grandmother.
                  And that will only tell you about blind spots.
                  False goals will also be set, which means that the objects for verification will increase many times over, you will not have enough strength for everything.
                  Do you think the blind spots will be like on a map, with clearly defined edges?
                  Besides, keep in mind that they will not always be the same, it depends on the orbits.
                  The fact that the aircraft carrier came out is not known where it went?
                  The fact that you brought your ships out, and what, spray them over all zones where the satellite did not receive information because of the clouds or for any other reason?
                  The scout stopped responding, and what is the conclusion from this? Breakage or knocked down?
                  And this is only part of the problems when detecting Augs on the high seas.
                  The original article is just about the complexity of this search.
            2. timokhin-aa
              16 October 2020 11: 45 New
              +8
              Why are you commenting on the text that you have not read? There is a whole section about ZGRLS.
            3. Igor Semenov
              Igor Semenov 16 October 2020 18: 54 New
              +3
              You have already been advised to read the article. There you will find the answers to your questions.
          2. Firelake
            Firelake 16 October 2020 11: 02 New
            +9
            Why are you advising this? It makes absolutely no sense. The scow should be attached right after the exit, it will radio. And accompany. And on board the rowers from among the scouts: six rowing and one with binoculars. So every hour and change in a circle.
            L-logic
            1. dragy52rus
              dragy52rus 16 October 2020 11: 17 New
              -8
              try yourself in stand-up, you're doing great.
              1. Firelake
                Firelake 16 October 2020 11: 21 New
                +6
                Thanks. But I don't like the stage.
              2. Igor Semenov
                Igor Semenov 16 October 2020 18: 56 New
                +2
                You have already turned comments into stand-up
      2. Runway
        Runway 16 October 2020 10: 20 New
        0
        Yeah. And the saturated traffic of steamers solely as a means of camouflaging air steamers and other things from the STR. "Here we mow, and here we reap."
    3. timokhin-aa
      16 October 2020 11: 05 New
      +8
      from the first photo it is easy to determine where the ships are going, this is obvious, you just need to take the second one in a couple of hours and the motion vector is immediately clear.


      So it is necessary to have a satellite in the same orbit in two hours.
      And the AUG will again unfold in the same way, and after the flight will change its course altogether. And you will see two points, extrapolate their course further, while they go back, for example.
      1. dragy52rus
        dragy52rus 16 October 2020 11: 15 New
        -8
        but they will already know where the AUG is. or not for the sake of searching for the whole article? this photo shows that AUG has been found. profit is received.
        1. timokhin-aa
          16 October 2020 11: 24 New
          10
          No. It is necessary to maintain contact before hitting it. The article contains a link to Rear Admiral Karev, where he gives a lucid example about a blow to an empty space.

          Links in the text are fundamental for understanding the text, you have to go through them - the issue of war at sea is complex, and is understandable only if you are not lazy.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 16 October 2020 13: 51 New