Military Review

"Eagles of Catherine"

166

Orlov brothers. Collage created for this article


Few noble families and families had such a great influence on history Russia, like the Orlovs. They, of course, cannot be called small-land nobles, but they were very far from the Golitsyns, Trubetskoy and Dolgoruky in terms of nobility, nobility and wealth - almost like heaven. However, in the second half of the 1763th century, five brothers of this family suddenly found themselves at the pinnacle of power, and at the same time “made themselves”. The case is extremely rare in world history: it was not the favorite's family that owed everything to the monarch, but, on the contrary, Catherine II, who took the Russian throne with the help of the Orlovs, was in debt to them. She herself understood this. “I owe to the Orlovs that I am,” she said in XNUMX to the French ambassador, Louis Auguste de Breteuillem.


The Orlov brothers and Catherine II. Collage created for this article

Being siblings, they turned out to be so different in character and abilities that only two can be called "Catherine's eagles", Gregory and Alexei, who "dragged" everyone else along with them.

The origin of the brothers


The noble family of the Orlovs descends from Lukyan Ivanovich Orlov, who owned the village of Lyutkino, Bezhetsk district, Tver province. His grandson Ivan rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel of one of the Moscow rifle regiments and was involved in the famous Streletsky revolt, but was pardoned by Peter I: as the family tradition says, for having successfully joked while standing on the scaffold.

The fate of his son Gregory was more successful. He rose to the rank of major general and actual state councilor, for some time served as acting governor of Novgorod, but died in 1746, when his eldest son was only 13 years old. This son was Ivan - the eldest of the famous brothers. It was he who became the head of the family, taking upon himself all the worries of managing the undivided estates. There were five brothers in total, as we remember: Ivan, Grigory, Alexey, Fedor and Vladimir. Grigory and especially Aleksey deserve not even one article, but a cycle of articles each. The rest of the special feats in their lives have not performed. Let's try to talk a little about them.

Daddy-sudarushka


"Eagles of Catherine"

F. Rokotov. Portrait of Count I. G. Orlov, between 1762 and 1765

The eldest of the famous brothers was born in 1733. Already at the age of 13, as we remember, he became the eldest in the family, taking care of both household matters and the fate of his younger brothers, from whom he received the respectful nicknames Starinushka and Papinka-Sudarushka. His authority in the family was indisputable, the younger brothers invariably kissed his hand when they met and did not sit down in his presence.

At 16, he entered the elite Preobrazhensky Guards Regiment as a private. At that time, even the soldiers of this regiment were nobles, and the reigning monarch has always been its colonel. The elder Orlov did not differ in ambition and did not have enough stars from the sky. After the palace coup of 1762, in which Grigory and Alexei played an important role, he became the count and captain of his Preobrazhensky regiment - and immediately retired and left Petersburg. But even the unmarried husband of the Empress Gregory and the super-passionate Alexei, whom Catherine II herself was afraid of until her knees trembled, did not dare to disobey the elder brother (which is why she sent him abroad with an unspoken ban on returning to Russia, and Alexey could return only by capturing "Princess Tarakanova "). After the coup, Ivan could for some time become a de facto shadow ruler of Russia, but he did not show any interest in politics, was not ambitious and ambitious, apparently believing that he had already received more than he could have hoped for.

Subsequently, the eldest of the Orlovs only twice participated in events that can be called historical. In 1767 he was a member of the so-called Commission for drawing up a new code (new laws of the Russian Empire). And in 1772 he became one of the six founders of the Moscow English Club. Died Ivan Orlov at the age of 58.

Favorite



F. Rokotov. Portrait of Grigory Orlov

Much more ambitious and ambitious turned out to be Ivan Orlov's younger brother, Gregory, whom Catherine II called "by far the most handsome man in the empire."

He was born in 1734 and, having completed training in the land nobility corps, in 1749 ended up in the second most important Guards regiment - Semyonovsky. In 1757 he was transferred from there to the army as an officer, took part in the Seven Years' War and was wounded three times in the battle of Zorndorf.

In 1759, Grigory Orlov returned to St. Petersburg, where he served in an artillery regiment, and in 1760 he became an adjutant to Count P.I. Shuvalov, who served as General Feldzheikhmeister. It all ended with the fact that Grigory seduced the mistress of his chief, Princess Kurakina, and was sent to continue serving in the fusilier grenadier regiment. It was then that the Grand Duchess Catherine turned her favorable gaze to the dashing and daring fellow, in whose bed he replaced the Pole Stanislav Ponyatovsky, the secretary of the British ambassador Charles Williams. She achieved the appointment of her favorite as treasurer of the Chancellery of Artillery and Fortification, the funds of which he later shamelessly used to prepare a coup.

Grigory Orlov did not have any special talents, he could not be called educated either. Catherine herself said that her Grishenka "does not understand any sciences."

In 1770, the French ambassador reported from St. Petersburg: "Grigory (Orlov) is the empress's lover, he is a very handsome man, but, according to rumors, he is simple-minded and stupid."

But external data, incredible luck and remarkable courage turned out to be enough to be one of the most influential people of the empire for many years. Adventurism and courage are not the last factors of success. After all, the conspiracy that brought Catherine II to power was extremely poorly thought out and prepared. Any researcher who studies documents of those years will very soon inevitably have very unflattering thoughts about the mental abilities of both Catherine and her associates. However, as they say, the boldness of the city takes: the plan that was worthless was carried out with such confidence and such energy, and Peter III behaved so passively and indecisively and surrendered so easily that the coup d'état was a success, and at the head of the Russian Empire, to everyone's amazement, turned out to be a person who did not have any, even the most dubious and ephemeral, rights to a foreign throne for her. You can read about the palace coup in June 1762 in the article “Emperor Peter III. Conspiracy".

On the day of accession to the throne of Catherine II, Captain Grigory Orlov was awarded the Order of St. Andrew the First-Called and promoted to major general, on the day of coronation (September 22, 1762) he became a lieutenant general. On the same autumn day, he and all his brothers became counts. Ivan by that time was already a chamberlain, a former sergeant (some believe that he nevertheless managed to get the rank of lieutenant) Alexey was a major general, the younger Fyodor and Vladimir were chamber junkers. And the next year, Catherine obtained from the Austrian emperor Franz I of the union of Russia, the assignment of the title of His Serene Highness to Grigory Orlov. Roman Empire. One involuntarily recalls the words of AV Stepanov about "a gang of godless impudent people ... endowing themselves with different insignia and honorary positions."

The main and most worthy act in the life of Grigory Orlov was his activity in plague-ridden Moscow, where he was sent in the fall of 1771. The situation was very serious. Rumors spread in the city that the plague had been brought in and spread by German doctors, many of whom were killed as a result. The families of the dead resisted the burning of contaminated things. Superstitious Muscovites went to church en masse to venerate the "miraculous" icons; attempts to resist this madness cost Archbishop Ambrose his life. Grigory Orlov acted tough and effective, any attempts to resist the authorities were ruthlessly suppressed - up to executions. They say that the concealment of the sick, which the townspeople, who did not trust doctors, hid in their apartments, became a huge problem then. After G. Orlov ordered to issue 10 rubles to married people upon discharge from hospitals, 5 rubles to unmarried (very large money at that time), there were practically no people left wishing to hide from doctors.

From Grigory Orlov, Catherine II gave birth to a son who went down in history under the name of Count Alexei Bobrinsky.


F. Rokotov. Portrait of A. Bobrinsky in childhood, 1760

Some researchers also talk about the daughter of Gregory and Catherine, whom they believe to be Countess Natalia Buxgewden.

G. Orlov lost the title of favorite in 1772, giving it to Alexander Vasilchikov.

In 1777, Grigory married Ekaterina Nikolaevna Zinovieva. The marriage is very scandalous: the bride was 24 years younger than the groom and was his cousin, over whom he also exercised custody. The Senate tried to ban this marriage, but after the intervention of Catherine II, all formalities were settled. After 4 years, the wife of Grigory Orlov died without giving birth to an heir.

The end of his life was sad and terrible: he lost his mind, did not even recognize his brothers and died at the age of 48.

Orlov with a scar



Unknown artist. Portrait of A. Orlov against the background of the Battle of Chesme, Hermitage

Evgeny Tarl wrote about Alexei Orlov:

"No moral, physical, or political obstacles existed for him, and he could not even understand why they exist for others."

He also calls Alexei Orlov "a dangerous, formidable, ambitious, capable of anything, a man who dares to do anything."

And here is the opinion of the Ambassador of France, who reports to Paris:

"Alexey Orlov is the head of the party that enthroned Catherine ... Catherine honors him, fears and loves him."

And Count F. Golovkin, the Russian envoy in Naples, later said about him:

"I would not have entrusted him with a wife or daughter, but I could do great things with him."

The most outstanding and talented representative of the Orlov family was born in 1737, his family called him Alekhan, and his acquaintances in the guard also often called him. In 1749, together with his brother Grigory, he was enrolled as a private in the Semyonovsky Guards regiment, after 6 years he received the rank of sergeant. It was then that, in a drunken brawl, Alexei received a saber blow to the face and a nickname - Orlov with a scar.

During the Seven Years War, Alexei served in the Observation Corps, which guarded the rear of the active army. Upon completion of this campaign, he was transferred to the grenadier company of the Preobrazhensky regiment. It was Alexei, after the arrest of one of the conspirators, Peter Passek, who took Catherine out of Peterhof to the location of the Izmailovsky regiment, the first who swore allegiance to her as the new empress. He also took an active part in the arrest of Peter III and forcing him to abdicate the throne. Later, Alexei Orlov headed the jailers of the deposed emperor during a short stay in the Ropsha palace (Grigory Potemkin was then among his subordinates). The famous third letter of Alexei Orlov to Catherine of Ropsha, where he informs her about the murder of Peter III, is declared by some to be a fake. However, he himself repeated the information contained in this letter, with numerous witnesses (who knew nothing about his correspondence with Catherine in those tragic days) at a reception with the Russian ambassador D.M. Golitsyn in the spring of 1771 in Vienna:

"
I told about it on my own motivation ... everyone who heard it trembled with horror ... said many times that it was very sad for a person so humane to be forced to do what was required of him "
(JH Casteras. Vie de Catherine II, imperatrice de Russie. Tome II. Paris, 1797).

And in a letter to Catherine, and in a story at a reception with Golitsyn, Alexey Orlov calls the murderer of the emperor F. Baryatinsky.

These tragic events were described in the article “Emperor Peter III. Murder and "life after death".

Alexey Orlov is undoubtedly the most outstanding and outstanding representative of his family, if not the only truly outstanding and outstanding one. One victory in the Battle of Chesme would have immortalized his name forever. Turkish Minister Resmi Effendi wrote about this defeat of the Ottoman fleet:

"All this is one of those rarities that historians call khodise-i-kyubra, great event, because they go out of the order of the nature of fate and happen three centuries".

Agree that such a recognition of the enemy is very expensive.

Resmi-Effendi also put Alexei Orlov on a par with Peter Rumyantsev in his notes (the comparison is more than flattering), calling both the great commanders of Catherine.

The French agent in Constantinople, Baron Tott, writes about the effect that the news of the Battle of Chesme produced in the Ottoman capital:

"The Padishah are in the most lively alarm, the ministers are depressed, the people are in despair, the capital is in fear of famine and invasion. This is the real situation of the empire, which one month before considered itself so formidable."

However, Aleksey Orlov also noted in Livorno, Italy, for his audacious and skillful kidnapping of "Princess Tarakanova", who caused great concern with her activities: this was described in articles "The high tragedy of" Princess Tarakanova " и “False Elizabeths. The sad fate of impostors "... He managed by crossing Arab, Friesland and English horses to bring out a new breed of trotters, which received his name - many people know about this. But at the Khrenovsky stud farm of Alexei Orlov, another, less known breed of horse was bred - the Russian horse. And even the first gypsy choir from Wallachia to Russia was brought by Alexei Orlov.

After the reburial of the ashes of Peter III, during which Alexei Orlov was forced to bear the imperial crown, and F. Baryatinsky and P. Lassek - the ends of the veil on which it lay, Baryatinsky was exiled to the village, and Alekhan, taking only his daughter with him, actually fled abroad. He returned to Russia after the assassination of Paul I and still managed to take part in organizing zemstvo militias in 1806-1807. The only daughter of Alexei Orlov, Anna, refused to marry and spent a significant part of her fortune on godly deeds. Especially large donations went to the Novgorod Yuryev Monastery, the abbot of which was her spiritual father, Archimandrite Photius Spassky. She died in this monastery in October 1848.

Dunajko



K. Levitsky. Portrait of F. G. Orlov

The fourth brother from the famous Orlov family, Fedor, who was nicknamed Dunaiko in the family, was born in 1741. He also took part in the Seven Years War and was involved in the conspiracy of 1762, for which he received the rank of captain of the Semyonovsky Life Guards Regiment from the new empress. However, in 1764 he left military service, taking the post of head (chief prosecutor) of the naval department of the ruling Senate.

In 1767, as a deputy from the nobles of the Oryol province, Fyodor worked in the Commission for Legislation (here he met with his older brothers, Ivan and Gregory).

During the next Russian-Turkish war, F. Orlov returned to the army, leading in 1770 the landing troops of the squadron of Admiral Spiridov (the First Archipelago Expedition of the Russian Fleet). During the Battle of Chesme, Fyodor was on the battleship Saint Eustathius, which collided with the burning Turkish ship Real-Mustafa. The Ottoman commander was on this ship, so it is often called the flagship, but this is not true: the Turkish flagship was called Kapudan Pasha and its opponents were the Russian ships Three Saints and Saint Januarius.

Fragments of the burning mast of the Real Mustafa fell into the open powder magazine of the Russian ship, and the command was given to leave it. It is said that during the evacuation, Fedor Orlov managed to save (by throwing into a lifeboat) several sailors, including Spiridov's son. Fyodor himself, together with the admiral, jumped into it literally an instant before the explosion of their ship.

Later F. Orlov took part in the battle at Lake Hydra and headed the squadron that cruised off the Koroman coast.

Having received the rank of general-in-chief after the conclusion of the Kuchuk-Kainardzhiyskiy peace, Fyodor Orlov filed a petition for dismissal from military service. After that he lived in Moscow as a private person. He died in 1796 at the age of 45. Fedor Orlov was not married and had no legal offspring. However, he left 7 illegitimate children: 5 boys and 2 girls, who later received their father's surname and a noble title. It is interesting that during the performance of the Decembrists in 1825, the two sons of Fedor ended up in different camps. Mikhail, a participant in the war of 1812 and the foreign campaign of the Russian army, was among the Decembrists, for which, due to the intercession of his brother Alexei (his opponent on Senate Square), he received a very mild punishment - he was sent into exile in his Kaluga estate and returned to Moscow in 1831 ... Alexei was also a military officer, a participant in the battles of Austerlitz and Borodino. It was to him in 1819 that Pushkin dedicated these lines:

Bellona's fiery pet,
A loyal citizen is at the throne!
Orlov, I will stand under the banners
Your warlike squads.



F. Kruger. Portrait of A.F. Orlov, 1851

This son of Fyodor Orlov took the side of Nicholas I and on December 14, 1825, he personally led the Life Guards Cavalry Regiment in an attack on a square of rebels. As a result, he rose to the position of Chief of the Separate Corps of Gendarmes and Commissioner of the Emperor at the Paris Peace Congress in 1856.

It was A.F. Orlov who achieved the greatest success among the descendants of the famous brothers.

Academician



V. Tropinin. Portrait of V.G. Orlov, 1826

The youngest of the Orlov brothers, Vladimir, was born in 1743 and lived the longest life, having died in 1831. This was the most atypical of the Orlovs, who "due to poor health" and "mental inclination to science" instead of serving in the army went to study at the University of Leipzig. Having barely returned to Russia, the 24-year-old boy was appointed to the post of chief director of the Academy of Sciences (!), Which he held from October 5, 1766 to December 5, 1774.

For seven years, having risen to the rank of lieutenant-general and the rank of chamberlain, the younger Orlov decided that he had fully fulfilled his duty to his homeland and retired at the age of 31. "Poor health" Vladimir far outlived the heroic brothers, having died at the age of 88. It was he who built the Otrada estate (modern Stupinsky district) in the village of Semenovsky near Moscow, in which the Assumption Church became the Orlov family burial vault: all five brothers and descendants of Vladimir himself are buried here.


Church of the Assumption in the Otrada-Semenovskoye estate, architect Domenico Gilardi, 1835

Vladimir became the only one of the Orlov brothers who left legitimate children: two sons and three daughters.

None of the representatives of this family - neither the legal line, nor the line of illegitimate descendants, did not occupy a position in society that even remotely resembled that of Grigory Orlov. And none of them inherited the genes for Alexei's overpassionarity.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Ryzhov V.A. Emperor Peter III. Conspiracy
Ryzhov V.A. Emperor Peter III. Murder and "life after death"
Ryzhov V. A. The high tragedy of "Princess Tarakanova"
Ryzhov V.A. The sad fate of the impostors
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  1. Far B
    Far B 12 October 2020 06: 04
    13
    Any researcher who studies documents of those years, very soon inevitably has very unflattering thoughts about the mental abilities of both Catherine and her associates
    Accordingly, these researchers should also have thoughts about the even more meager mental abilities of Peter III and his associates.
    One involuntarily recalls the words of A. V. Stepanov about "a gang of godless impudent people ... endowing themselves with various insignia and honorary positions"
    Yeah. When you look at the current Russian political Olympus, these words also come to mind.
    But the fact that the Orlov brothers "made themselves" is a serious stretch. They had such a sickly starting springboard, the very fact of serving in the Guards regiments says a lot.
    1. Graz
      Graz 12 October 2020 06: 28
      +2
      in fact, the brothers who participated in the assassination of the emperor did not end very well in the end, karma overtook
    2. VLR
      12 October 2020 07: 02
      +8
      Peter III was not stupid, but weak-minded. A weak-minded autocratic monarch can only be saved by a "strong man" to whom he will give power over the state - like Louis XIII Richelieu.
      In general, it seems that the conspirators who knew Peter well were counting on the fact that, having learned about their performance,
      he will give up the fight.
      As for the emperor's entourage, it was insignificant, but Minich was next to him then, trying with all his might to save him. Peter should have simply locked up driving cowards and hysterics in some room and duplicated Minich's orders.
      As for the service in the guard, as a springboard - how many people served at that time in the guard, and not in rank-and-file positions. And the idols of the guards were Sergeant Alexei Orlov and Captain Grigory Orlov. Who brought out the guards
      despite the attempts of the commanders of the same Transfigurations to prevent the mutiny. It's not about the guards - it's about character and charisma.
      1. Far B
        Far B 12 October 2020 07: 40
        11
        Peter III was not stupid, but weak-minded
        A weak-minded, but not stupid person will try to calculate the situation at least one step ahead. This is all the more easy if the intelligence of the conspirators, you claim, deserved unflattering assessments. Well, or, as a last resort, follow your advice:
        Peter should have simply locked up driving cowards and hysterics in some room and duplicated Minich's orders
        However, "not stupid" Peter for some reason did not think of this. That's bad luck!
        how many people served at that time in the guard, and not in rank-and-file positions. And the idols of the guards were Sergeant Alexey Orlov and Captain Grigory Orlov
        The captain of the Semenovites is by no means an ordinary figure. And the sergeant too, considering that the guardsmen were boiling in a rather small world. So service in the guard is an unconditional springboard. Well, Grishenka's male dignity ascended to the very top of the brothers))) That cannot be called a beautiful phrase "we made ourselves". Potemkin made himself - even after getting out of the Empress's box, he remained a major statesman. The same cannot be said about the Orlovs (except for Alexei).
        1. VLR
          12 October 2020 08: 01
          +5
          Potemkin was already the favorite of the empress, who then moved him. And Grigory Orlov - the lover of nothing decisive Grand Duchess, who, as a result, became an all-powerful empress. And it became such not thanks to the wisdom of Panin's plans or the cunning of the Piedmontese Odard, whom many consider to be Count Saint-Germain, but thanks to the courage and pressure of the Orlovs, who, with the money taken by Catherine from the British, spoiled the garrison of St. Petersburg, persuaded to swear allegiance to Catherine, and then led to Oranienbaum and Peterhof. Alexey Orlov and Potemkin are figures of approximately the same scale, but Alexey is more of a warrior, and a good diplomat, and Potemkin is an administrator. But the big thing, choosing between them, I would entrust Alexei Orlov, because Potemkin's periods of frenzied activity were replaced by terrible depression and then he literally turned into a vegetable. And it was impossible to guess when his depression phase would begin.
          1. Far B
            Far B 12 October 2020 08: 12
            +1
            And Grigory Orlov - the lover of nothing decisive Grand Duchess, who, as a result, became the all-powerful empress
            But she did. And Gregory remained with her. Some time. But then he was blown away. But Potemkin was not blown away. Surprise!
            And here it is:
            Having barely returned to Russia, the 24-year-old boy was appointed to the post of chief director of the Academy of Sciences (!)
            Obviously, it also refers to the true nature of "homemade". What I mean is that you are using the "made yourself" formula incorrectly: the guys just happened to be in the right place at the right time, one of the five had a face that Katerina liked, complete with a horse satisfier, the other had an awl in the bottom and an outstanding mind.
            But the big deal, choosing between them, I would entrust to Alexei Orlov
            You know better.
            1. Alexander Suvorov
              Alexander Suvorov 12 October 2020 19: 31
              0
              You shouldn't argue with him. The author is a supporter of an alternative version of history, adores the useless Petrushka and fiercely hates Catherine the Great. Arguing with him is useless, so do not try, do not convince him.
            2. vladcub
              vladcub 12 October 2020 20: 59
              +2
              "Potemkin did not give up" actually, Grigory, apart from physical "dignity", did not shine with anything special, and Potemkin was smarter
          2. Looking for
            Looking for 12 October 2020 14: 57
            +1
            I wonder who turned her from the Grand Duchess into the all-powerful empress ????
            1. Hantengri
              Hantengri 12 October 2020 19: 23
              +5
              Quote: Seeker
              I wonder who turned her from the Grand Duchess into the all-powerful empress ????

              Members of her circle. )))
              1. Kwas
                Kwas 13 October 2020 20: 45
                +2
                That's the benefit of hobby groups! love
                1. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 13 October 2020 22: 04
                  +1
                  Especially when there is only one circle and everyone is interested in it! laughing
          3. vladcub
            vladcub 12 October 2020 21: 03
            +3
            I agree that Alexey is a "perpetum mobile". And Potemkin is like on a "roller coaster": up and down
      2. Proxima
        Proxima 12 October 2020 08: 40
        +7
        Quote: VlR
        Peter III was not stupid, but weak-minded

        Only a mentally retarded person can so easily defile the imperial crown of some German left! He didn't even need to do anything, just be a little adequate! And this is with his super-legitimacy to the Russian throne (direct grandson of Peter the Great). Only a complete blockhead could give the conquered lands of East Prussia with Königsberg back to Frederick, abundantly watered with Russian blood. Only an extremely mentally underdeveloped person could publicly say: “I could become a Prussian colonel, but I’m just a Russian emperor (!!!)” Or was it Katka who slandered him again? Or did everyone hear it? This phrase was simply a shock for the Russian society, which was waging a war with Prussia. In short, he had to try very hard, which he did.
        1. VLR
          12 October 2020 09: 33
          -4
          The war with Prussia was led not by Russian society, but by Elizabeth, who, for some reason, sent the Russian army against a state with which Russia did not even have a common border, and the goals of this war remain a mystery in our time. It was impossible to keep Prussia, it was captured only in order to later exchange it for something - like Peter I of Finland in the Northern War: you do not accuse him of treason, do you? Peter III exchanged Prussia for Schleswig - his hereditary land, captured by Denmark. Rather, to help Frederick in her conquest. Holstein, unlike foreign Prussia, with the accession of Peter III, officially became part of the Russian Empire. With the annexation of Schleswig, Russia gained control over the Danish Straits. After the murder of Peter, Frederick refused to fulfill his obligations - and Catherine, as they say, wiped herself off: she was not in that position to pump rights.
          The Russian Guard, by the way, did not want to fight at all - neither with Prussia, nor with Denmark. The guardsmen felt good in Petersburg too. If Peter III had not given the order to the guards regiments to prepare for a campaign against Denmark, perhaps the Orlovs would have failed.
          1. Far B
            Far B 12 October 2020 09: 51
            +3
            Elizabeth, who, for some unknown reason, sent the Russian army against a state with which Russia did not even have a common border
            One to one - Russia's participation in the Napoleonic Wars. Although during this period, RI could well bend the Great Porte with feeling, with sense and determination, taking over the straits and Orthodox (and not only) territories, while Europe is busy with internecine squabbles. But no, we decided to have a snack with Napoleon.
          2. Proxima
            Proxima 12 October 2020 12: 58
            +5
            Quote: VlR
            It was impossible to keep Prussia, it was captured only in order to then exchange it for something - like Peter I of Finland in the Northern War: you do not accuse him of treason, do you ?.

            Why was it impossible to keep East Prussia if Prussia itself was about to cease to exist and would soon be divided among the Allies? And here is a serious reserve for the division - luxurious lands with an ice-free port (future Kaliningrad), whose population without exception (including Kant) has already sworn allegiance to the Russian crown. As for the analogy with Peter the Great, it is far-fetched, he would never conclude a peace treaty with a practically defeated enemy. Moreover, he would not have given him vast territories, and even more so, he would not have entered into an alliance with this state! fool This could only be done by a stupid Prussophile, like Peter the third.
            1. VLR
              12 October 2020 13: 39
              -2
              Prussia was not defeated - this is a historical myth. As a result, it was Prussia and England that emerged victorious in the Northern War. The annexation of Prussia to Russia would not be recognized by any state in Europe, including allied France and Austria. Later, they fought for the Turks at peace congresses as if they were relatives, and here is a kingdom in the center of Europe.
              Let me remind you that Russia did not even have a common border with Prussia. By that time, the Baltic navy also did not exist - Peter's ships rotted away, and others were not built. And there was not the slightest opportunity to maintain ties with this newfound province without permission from neighbors. Who would not recognize this conquest and would force them to leave Prussia. The conquered Finland (an even more extensive territory than Prussia) was given by Peter I to Sweden. And he himself has repeatedly said that he seized it only in order to have something to bargain with. It's the same story with Prussia. Nobody was going to keep it as part of Russia. But they wanted to bargain for her and get something in return. But Holstein and Schleswig are 100% legal and uncontested lands of Peter III, which he brought with him to the empire. Holstein was already available, Schleswig was illegally occupied by Denmark, and the Danes themselves recognized the illegality of the occupation, repeatedly offering to buy Schleswig for very big money. And these were strategically very well located lands and very developed territories - in contrast to Prussia, which was in the bear's corner. It was "crane in hand", while Prussia is "tit in the sky."
              1. Proxima
                Proxima 12 October 2020 16: 06
                +2
                Quote: VlR
                Prussia was not defeated - this is a historical myth.

                Do not distort, no one claims that Prussia was defeated and this myth does not exist. How can she be defeated if, thanks to the efforts of a half-witted Prussians, Russia gave up all the lands conquered from Prussia, made peace with her and entered into an alliance with her (with Prussia) ?!
              2. kapitan92
                kapitan92 12 October 2020 23: 37
                +2
                Quote: VlR
                ... By that time, the Baltic navy also did not exist - Peter's ships rotted away, and others were not built.

                Why are you so.
                Before the outbreak of hostilities in the Baltic Sea, a favorable situation developed for the Russian fleet. Prussia did not have its own fleet, and Sweden in the war was on the side of Russia. At the same time, England was an ally of Prussia, which had a powerful navy. In this regard, the main task of the fleet in the war was to prevent the British fleet from entering the Baltic Sea through the straits, and in addition to blockade the coast of Prussia
                By the beginning of the Seven Years War, the fleet had 34 sailing ships (including 21 battleships, 5 frigates, 2 bombing ships, 2 pram, 4 packet boats), 83 galleys and about 70 small rowing ships.
                It is very interesting to know about the source of your information about the "rotten Peter's ships". hi
                .
              3. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 13 October 2020 10: 24
                +2
                Quote: VlR
                By that time, the Baltic navy also did not exist - Peter's ships rotted away, and others were not built.

                Apparently, Admiral Mishukov recruited the Flying Dutchmen into the fleet. smile
                Under action from the coast and bombardment from the sea, Memel, having withstood four days of siege, surrendered to the Russians on June 24. The ship fleet, which consisted of 22 ships of the line and went to sea under the command of Mishukov, was ordered to block the Prussian ports and act against the British fleet if it came to the aid of Prussia. In early August, when it became known that the British would not come to the Baltic Sea, Mishukov, leaving several ships for the blockade, with the main forces of the fleet entered Karlskrona to negotiate with the Swedes allied to us, and then returned to his port. 5 ships and 1 frigate that left Revel in mid-September, under the command of Vice-Admiral Polyansky, were under the blockade of the Prussian coast until October 12.

                In January of the following year, 1758, the Russians took Konigsberg; and our fleet, including 24 ships of the line, in conjunction with a Swedish detachment (of 6 ships and 3 frigates), also subordinate to Admiral Mishukov, stood all summer near Copenhagen in vain expectation of the arrival of the British and sent only cruisers to inspect and interrogate commercial ships passing by the Sound.

                ... in 1760, Admiral Mishukov, the commander of the fleet, was entrusted with the main command over the conduct of the siege, for which only two detachments of dragoons and Cossacks were sent from the army. The combined squadrons, Kronstadt and Revel, consisting of 27 battleships and frigates and 17 small and transport ships, had up to 1500 people. landing infantry, 100 horses, part of the siege and field artillery, entrenching tools and camp supplies.

                The next year, 1761, although our main army was intended to operate in Silesia, to separate the forces of the Prussians and distract them from our allies, the Austrians and Swedes, it was decided to make a strong sabotage in Pomerania, and the most important thing was the capture of Kolberg. (...) Up to 24 thousand troops were landed on the fleet, which consisted of 12 linear and 7 small ships. Upon arrival on July 1 at the Danzig raid, Polyansky straightened the spars and rigging and, having taken the siege artillery, went to Kohlberg. But on the way, having met a contrary wind, through intercourse with Rumyantsev, he brought the troops and artillery to the city of Rugenwald.
                On the next day, upon the arrival of the fleet at Kohlberg, on August 15, bombarding ships, supported by ships and frigates, opened heavy fire on the city and the camp of the enemy troops located nearby.
                © Veselago F. A Brief History of the Russian Fleet.
            2. VLR
              12 October 2020 13: 54
              -1
              By the way, you, apparently, like many, do not know that Prussia was returned to Frederick not by Peter III, but by Catherine II. Peter did not withdraw the Russian army from Europe, it was to her that Minich persuaded him to go. Peter, according to the treaty, had to give Prussia only after Frederick helped him to reconquer Schleswig. And Catherine withdrew the Russian troops without any conditions - if only Frederick recognized her empress and generally began to talk to her.
              1. Proxima
                Proxima 12 October 2020 17: 36
                +3
                Quote: VlR
                By the way, you, apparently, like many, do not know that Prussia was returned to Frederick not by Peter III, but by Catherine II.

                Where are we going with sivolapy! what Even if we assume that apart from your works we do not read anything, then it is worth putting forward a version that it could be read in your article on VO about six months ago, devoted to the activities of Peter the Third. But seriously, how East Prussia de facto returned to its native land is a trifle. The main thing is that the deed was done by the main "hero" of our discussion platform.
          3. Hantengri
            Hantengri 12 October 2020 20: 31
            +5
            Quote: VlR
            Peter III exchanged Prussia for Schleswig - his hereditary land, captured by Denmark. Rather, to help Frederick in her conquest.

            It takes a lot of mind to give what you already have for ephemeral help in getting something, someday! Moreover, first give ... lol
          4. Marine engineer
            Marine engineer 12 October 2020 22: 33
            +3
            “Peter III exchanged Prussia for Schleswig - his hereditary land seized by Denmark. Rather, to help Frederick in her conquest. "

            It turns out that Peter lll was just an enchanting simpleton, instead of holding East Prussia, to force Friedrich to present Holstein on a silver platter (without shedding a drop of Russian blood and not spending a penny from the treasury) and only then returning it to the king, he is content with the "future" Frederick's help in the conquest of Holstein.
          5. Kwas
            Kwas 13 October 2020 20: 55
            +2
            Peter III is accused not of treason, but of stupidity. For some reason, the majority of "alternative historians" love to praise the deposed emperors, who could not pass the exam of mother of history for the role of ruler!
      3. vladcub
        vladcub 12 October 2020 15: 19
        +3
        "it's a matter of character and charisma" - just said. All the Orlovs are a little crazy, but they just attract. For some reason, Alexey Orlov reminds me of my father Makhno: he was also charismatic and desperate
    3. Bar1
      Bar1 12 October 2020 09: 09
      -4
      first, the three older brothers were buried in the St. George Cathedral of the Yuryev Monastery in Novgorod, and then by the end of the 19th century they were reburied in Otrada.
      For more than sixty years, the ashes of the outstanding associates of Empress Catherine the Great Gregory, Alexei and Fyodor lived in the Yuriev Monastery, and in 1896, on the centenary of the death of Empress Catherine II, the great-grandson of the Orlovs, A.V. Orlov-Davydov, filed a petition for permission to transport Orlovs to the family estate "Otrada" to the place of their former repose. Permission was obtained. The solemn ceremony of the reburial of the Orlovs' ashes took place on February 24, 1896.

      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Орлов,_Алексей_Григорьевич
      strange biographies of almost all these figures of that period. All of them are Masons, they were brought up by the Jesuits, the dominance of the Germans was not at the top, then for some reason it was not clear where it came from after the German influence became French, so that all the nobility of RI did not speak Russian anymore, balakali French.
      As Herzen said - "they were far from the people"
      In general, the stupid tradition of the OI to study only kings in history, nobility and wars are thoroughly vicious. World history is not the kings of their henchmen, but first of all the people. But if you start describing the life of the people, then a different picture of the world opens. When the people did not want to know any Christianity before 20th century. That the implantation of the Western way of life in the form of potatoes and alcohol was caused only by popular riots, and even by the OI of 500 thousand peasants.
      In short, enough already to write nonsense about this Rusko-neru aristocracy.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 12 October 2020 09: 29
        10
        In short, enough already to write nonsense about this Rusko-neru aristocracy.

        In short, enough already to write nonsense in the comments, come on, write articles about the people, and so that about everyone by surname, and by name and patronymic. Here, take it
        even rebelled in the OI of 500 thousand peasants.
        this rebellion and about everyone who rebelled, who stabbed and what women fucked.
        Look forward to. laughing
        PS On alcohol I agree. drinks Do not mace the potatoes. angry
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 12 October 2020 11: 12
          -5
          Quote: Sea Cat
          In short, enough already to write nonsense in the comments, come on, write articles about the people, and so that about everyone by surname, and by name and patronymic. Here, take it

          Smirnov does not skip my articles. You understand the ideology and other courtesy behavior in front of those who pay.

          Quote: Sea Cat
          this rebellion and about everyone who rebelled, who stabbed and what women fucked.
          Look forward to.
          PS On alcohol I agree.

          as there women fucked it is not for me. It's on porn sites.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 12 October 2020 11: 37
            12
            Smirnov does not skip my articles. You understand the ideology and other courtesy behavior in front of those who pay.
            The placement of articles on the site does not depend on "courtesy behavior", it is checked. Only from the content. Obviously, the content of your articles does not even fit into the very broad framework that the site has established for the story.
            And you send your articles in PM to readers. In the form of an ideological sabotage under the official history. You look, someone will penetrate, associates will appear.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 12 October 2020 12: 37
              +6
              Mikhail, a participant in the war of 1812 and the foreign campaign of the Russian army, was among the Decembrists, for which, due to the intercession of his brother Alexei (his opponent on Senate Square), he received a very mild punishment - he was sent into exile in his Kaluga estate and returned to Moscow in 1831 ... Alexei was also a combat officer, a participant in the battles of Austerlitz and Borodino.

              One brother was at the origins of secret societies, the other twice led the horse guards to the insurgent troops on Senate Square ... what
              Yesterday, by a sinful deed, I first watched The Union of Salvation. The film leaves a feeling of understatement ... what And the matter is not in the Senate Square, and not in the uprising of the Chernigov regiment. This is a consequence. And the thing is how did it happenthat in a few years the life-affirming ideas of young officers took radical forms ... including the assassination of the tsar ... it seems that the future "tsar-liberator", despite his young age, would follow papa as a locomotive .. hi
            2. Bar1
              Bar1 12 October 2020 12: 48
              -4
              Quote: Undecim
              Smirnov does not skip my articles. You understand the ideology and other courtesy behavior in front of those who pay.
              The placement of articles on the site does not depend on "courtesy behavior", it is checked. Only from the content. Obviously, the content of your articles does not even fit into the very broad framework that the site has established for the story.
              And you send your articles in PM to readers. In the form of an ideological sabotage under the official history. You look, someone will penetrate, associates will appear.

              normal articles with facts always with links. And as for the content, then what is alien to me, I will not repeat.

              As for the comrades-in-arms, I actually have long been here since 12 and saw the public better. But the local policy is built like this, there is a clack that turns on and provokes, and then the administrator intervenes and demolishes the person. Therefore, none of the normal ones remained, only eleven trilobites and cats under the caliber.
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 12 October 2020 13: 15
                +8
                As for the comrades-in-arms, I actually have been here since 12g for a long time and have seen the public better, but the local politics are built like this, there is a clack that turns on and provokes, and then the administrator intervenes and demolishes a person
                Nonsense. Sane commentators never troll. This is the lot of all idividuals weighed down by complexes. Everything here rests on the reaction to criticism, the ability to perceive it normally and conduct a discussion using exclusively literary expressions. The Russian language makes it possible to convey the full depth of feelings without obscenity and direct insults with rudeness.
                As for the policy of the administration, the historical preferences of the audience are of no interest to them and are not banned for this. Trust me, this is my eleventh nickname. So I have been on the site for several years, just like you. True, I don't remember your like-minded people, excuse me for being straightforward.
                normal articles with facts always with links
                Obviously, the interpretation of the facts causes fear among the admins. It would be interesting to see.
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 12 October 2020 13: 59
                  -3
                  Quote: Undecim
                  runda. Sane commentators never troll

                  I have nothing to add, there were such people, but now they are not. They died or changed their beliefs, they are simply always under pressure from the admins, as not everyone can.

                  Quote: Undecim
                  Obviously, the interpretation of the facts causes fear among the admins. It would be interesting to see.

                  my introductory article written almost three years ago.
                  now I would add and fix something.
                  Pavel Ordynsky at your service.
                  http://new.chronologia.org/polemics/great_gallium.php
                  1. Undecim
                    Undecim 12 October 2020 14: 15
                    +5
                    Thanks, I'll take a look.
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 12 October 2020 17: 29
                      +3
                      Quote: Undecim
                      Thanks, I'll take a look.

                      Well, Viktor Nikolaevich, are you familiar? How are your impressions?
                      I read. laughing
                      1. Undecim
                        Undecim 12 October 2020 18: 20
                        +3
                        Not yet, haven't looked. On the road.
                      2. Undecim
                        Undecim 12 October 2020 20: 13
                        +7
                        I read it. A brilliant confirmation of the frustration and deprivation theory.
                      3. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 12 October 2020 20: 54
                        +4
                        And what needs, in your opinion, cannot be satisfied by the author of this wonderful work - social or physiological? smile
                      4. Undecim
                        Undecim 12 October 2020 21: 01
                        +4
                        This cannot be determined without a history.
              2. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 12 October 2020 17: 31
                +3
                Quote: Bar1
                there were such people, but now they are not.

                Remind, please, at least half a dozen nicknames. I'm wondering who you consider your like-minded person.
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 12 October 2020 18: 14
                  -1
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  Quote: Bar1
                  there were such people, but now they are not.

                  Remind, please, at least half a dozen nicknames. I'm wondering who you consider your like-minded person.

                  The arctic fox is so smart, do you think I was recording everyone who came here?

                  here is an archive topic for 11g about Orbini, read the comments.
                  https://topwar.ru/6431-mavro-orbini-o-slavyanskom-carstve.html
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 12 October 2020 19: 11
                    10
                    I read it ... He smiled. smile
                    By the way, it is really useful sometimes to refer to the origins. Recall that bacchanal of pseudo-historical colors that was like that seven or eight years ago ... I am glad that your like-minded people, Bar, and you among them, still lost their war, both on this resource, and in general in the information space of the country.
                    The fact that in Russia you and others like you are in the position of such freaks, suggests that not everything is still lost with us, and that our people have not yet been brought to the state of a herd of stupid sheep.
                    How is Filatov doing?
                    As for the mind, he is very bright
                    Thank God, we distinguish forget-me-not from shit.

                    smile
                  2. Bar1
                    Bar1 12 October 2020 21: 36
                    -4
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    I am glad that your like-minded people, Bar, and you, among them, have nevertheless lost their war, both on this resource and in the information space of the country in general.

                    on review, they were simply dispersed by Smirnov from his comrades.
                    And as far as principle is concerned, from the other side you will not be able to refute any of the provisions of Fomenko's theory. The pot is thin, all that remains is to make sounds.
                  3. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 12 October 2020 21: 59
                    +7
                    Yes, I and real scientists, including mathematicians, astronomers, physicists, linguists, have refuted a hundred times ... Everything has been refuted - from the first to the last paragraph of his works, unless he managed to publish something new.
                    As for the editorial policy, excuse me, the fact that Samsonov's essays on the Middle Ages are published here speaks of the complete absence of censorship in content, there is only censorship in the form of presentation.
                    And to be banned from publication on this resource - it is necessary to be able to distinguish yourself. Have you heard of brothel prostitutes being fired for debauchery? Here, consider that something similar happened to you.
                  4. Hantengri
                    Hantengri 12 October 2020 22: 20
                    +3
                    Quote: Bar1
                    And as far as principle is concerned, from the other side you will not be able to refute any of the provisions of Fomenko's theory.

                    The "theory" of this businessman from graphomania, by the scientific community, 20 years ago, was dismantled, to the bones, gnawed and spat out, with the diagnosis: "Numbered, calculated, weighed and recognized as unfit" (c). http://www.pereplet.ru/gorm/library/book2.htm
                    If you did not know about it, these are your problems.
                    Now you know! As they say: get it and sign it!
          2. Undecim
            Undecim 12 October 2020 20: 15
            +5
            I read it. The question arose - did it ever occur to you and your companions in such exercises that two, three, or even a team could play this game?
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 12 October 2020 21: 12
              +5
              Oh, Viktor Nikolaevich, you are an entertainer ...
              I immediately remembered Yuz Aleshkovsky:
              I once asked the academician what would happen if the entire male population starts to cheat on the command of others and ends a second per second, a comradely orgasm will make a group orgasm, moreover. The old man says:
              - It is difficult to predict, and such a high-rhythmic action requires the rarest self-discipline plus mass self-awareness and, of course, a sense of unity of purpose. As long as the world is divided into two camps, this is impossible. That's when, my friend, there will be one world, then we'll see, then we will also help you, hehe, how you deigned to let the term in. If you, my dreamer, speak seriously, then an experiment on such a global scale can end very badly, since the mass of pleasure received will be equal to plus or minus infinity.
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 12 October 2020 21: 25
                +5
                An interesting, as they say now, flash mob, you described. But I didn't mean a synchronous masturbation session, but something else.
              2. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 12 October 2020 21: 48
                +5
                Yes, no matter what they do, it will still turn out exactly that, so, in general, there is no difference.
              3. Undecim
                Undecim 12 October 2020 22: 03
                +5
                The question is not about them. I meant that in the same France it is quite possible to have the same mouton, which will joyfully announce to the world that everything around is France, since the village of Shaposhnikovo in the Orenburg steppes is the French Shaposhnikovo, and the village of Pomidorovo near Novosibirsk is the French Pomme d 'orovo.
                And then how will they figure out who is on top of our Bar and their Mouton?
              4. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 12 October 2020 22: 12
                +3
                And I already, you know, asked this question to Baru. I received no answer. But I am sure that he and those like him will find a hundred thousand million differences between any Frenchman and a true descendant of the great Tartarians, which means there is nothing to compare - the descendants of the Tartarians are right.
              5. Undecim
                Undecim 12 October 2020 22: 16
                +1
                Yes, I noticed that he simply ignores uncomfortable questions.
    4. Bar1
      Bar1 12 October 2020 21: 43
      -3
      Quote: Undecim
      I read it. The question arose - did it ever occur to you and your companions in such exercises that two, three, or even a team could play this game?

      eleven times you say kicked out? And finally, you have become an exemplary conformist from a marginal? This is the path from top to bottom, just your place, unless you're lying.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 12 October 2020 21: 47
        +3
        With a few comments Above, you complained about the insidious administration and the commentators provoking you.
        And in this case, what provoked you to rudeness?
  • Catfish
    Catfish 12 October 2020 16: 56
    +5
    ... only eleven trilobites and cats under the caliber.

    I sincerely thank you for this, I laughed heartily. Really good. A very good addition to the "Russophobic Trilobatch". good laughing
  • vladcub
    vladcub 12 October 2020 20: 48
    +3
    V.N., I immediately warn you: I will not read such articles: I am afraid for the psyche, I will read alternatives and I will look for Tartary
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 12 October 2020 20: 51
      +2
      Try it at least.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 12 October 2020 17: 18
    +1
    Well, why, sexual "relationships" are a harsh reality in the life of any society. Without this, nowhere and pornography is related to this only in the "part concerning".
  • Bar1
    Bar1 12 October 2020 14: 34
    -6
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Do not mace the potatoes.

    As for potatoes, potatoes contain the toxin solanine. This has been proven to date, and why the peasants of the 19th century did not accept potatoes and, moreover, before the fight it is not clear. Russian peasants were not idiots.
    And also considering that modern potatoes are simply spoiled ALL, they do not boil over, as before, then one should refrain from using this product.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 12 October 2020 16: 52
      +4
      Solanine is formed in the skin in the light and only then is it dangerous. The rest of the potatoes are just useful, and sometimes necessary, remember Jack London "Smoke and the Kid".
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 12 October 2020 17: 50
        -2
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Solanine is formed in the skin in the light and only then is it dangerous. The rest of the potatoes are just useful, and sometimes necessary, remember Jack London "Smoke and the Kid".

        Here are the videos, I honestly don't know how it relates, True, Academician Pyzhikov spoke out against the potatoes, and this is already serious.

        1. Catfish
          Catfish 12 October 2020 18: 00
          +5
          Frankly, some kind of nonsense, potatoes as a diversion of "reptilians" against the human race. This crap can only be discussed after a glass, and I didn't drink today.
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 13 October 2020 08: 32
            +1
            Kostya, to understand this crap it is necessary to "persuade" 0,5 vodka
        2. Undecim
          Undecim 12 October 2020 20: 04
          +7
          academician Pyzhikov
          Pyzhikov has not grown up to academicians.
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 12 October 2020 21: 28
            0
            Quote: Undecim
            academician Pyzhikov
            Pyzhikov has not grown up to academicians.

            Doctor I.N.
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 12 October 2020 21: 44
              +3
              Doctor of Science is a degree.
              Academician - member of the Academy of Sciences. Pyzhikov is not a historian of the level to be elected to the Academy of Sciences.
        3. vladcub
          vladcub 12 October 2020 20: 36
          +3
          In fact, feasts were mentioned in the epics, and then instead of beer and honey they drank, maybe minimal water?
          Morgan's counterpart to Peter 1 is strength. Contrary to common misconception, Peter 1 is not accounted for by the appearance of potatoes. Potatoes appeared in Russia after Peter 1. It seems under Anna Ioanovna.
          As for tomatoes, and even in the middle of the 19th century, tomatoes were considered poison.
          There is a known case that Lincoln's chef, who was a secret supporter of the Southerners, wanted to send Lincoln with tomatoes, but he liked the "poison" and ordered more
  • Bar1
    Bar1 12 October 2020 09: 19
    0
    In 1924, on an autumn night, a detachment of some people in leather jackets arrived at Otrada. The coffins were taken out of the tomb, they were unsoldered, valuables were taken out (precious buttons, wearable crosses), then the remains of all buried Orlovs and Orlovs-Davydovs were burned in a large fire, among whom were: the hero of the Battle of Chesme, the first director of the Imperial Academy of Sciences, heroes of the Caucasian war of 1859 years, awarded orders and sabers "For Bravery", the founder of the Olginskaya Children's Hospital in Moscow, who allocated a million rubles for its construction and maintenance, another philanthropist, who allocated a million rubles for the construction of a warship in the Russian-Japanese in 1905. The tombstones were broken, some of the slabs were too heavy, and they were simply thrown at the gate of the tomb, where they remain to this day.

    A CLUB was set up in the Tomb.



    people in leather jackets, who could it be?
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 12 October 2020 09: 58
      +5
      people in leather jackets, who could it be?
      You yourself have already answered: "these are not the kings of their minions, but above all the people."
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 12 October 2020 11: 09
        -4
        Quote: Undecim
        people in leather jackets, who could it be?
        You yourself have already answered: "these are not the kings of their minions, but above all the people."

        You, too, somehow do not differ in intelligence. People in black jackets are certainly not people. For example, Comrades Trotsky, Sverdlov, Dzerzhinsky loved black leather jackets very much, probably they. To say that they are a handy people will probably be a big stretch.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 12 October 2020 11: 25
          +7
          You want to say that those who outraged the tomb in 1924 were personally Trotsky, Sverdlov, Dzerzhinsky? But what about the residents of the village of Semenovskoye, who also participated in this action. Are they not people?
          Did Trotsky and Sverdlov also go to the club?
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 12 October 2020 11: 55
            +1
            Quote: Undecim
            You want to say that those who outraged the tomb in 1924 were personally Trotsky, Sverdlov, Dzerzhinsky? But what about the residents of the village of Semenovskoye, who also participated in this action. Are they not people?
            Did Trotsky and Sverdlov also go to the club?

            I want to say that these were the Cheka and some kind of special services of the commander-in-chief of the spacecraft and the Minister of War Trotsky, they then received these famous leather jackets.
            Nothing is known about the inhabitants of the village of Semyonovskoye, if the common people had done this, then everything would have ended in just a big fire. The Russian peasants were very squeamish to mess with such mud.
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 12 October 2020 12: 46
              +8
              In 1924, the Cheka did not exist, Trotsky had no time for the Orlovs' graves, and there were no special services in the Red Army. As for the people, then you have some criteria for dividing into simple and not simple, and how you divide them in the depths of time is a mystery.
              As for the disgust of the Russian peasants, the word "grave-digging" in church books has been found since the XNUMXth century, and the concept of "grave-digger" in the sense of a grave robber was firmly established in Russia in the XNUMXth century. Do you want to say that Trotsky and the Chekists were the grave-diggers in those days?
              1. Bar1
                Bar1 12 October 2020 14: 12
                +1
                Quote: Undecim
                As for the people, then you have some criteria for dividing into simple and not simple and how you divide them in the depths of time, a mystery

                Of course, you probably heard the expressions haves and have nots. To protect property, the haves created power, as well as the institutions of the church, the army, which the Romanovs needed, say, for use inside the state, but outside, too, this and that. has changed.

                As for the grave-diggers, in Russian society these were criminals whom society and the world have always persecuted.

                You cannot know about Trotsky, what he did there every day. Well, for example, he invited foreign capital on a concession basis to Russia, but he was given a hand.
            2. kalibr
              kalibr 12 October 2020 15: 54
              0
              Quote: Bar1
              Russian peasants were very squeamish to deal with such dirt.

              And they dabbled in sleepwalking all the time!
          2. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 12 October 2020 14: 39
            +6
            in 1924 - it was personally Trotsky, Sverdlov, Dzerzhinsky

            "and who joined them Shepilov Kamenev ... ". laughing Your mistake, Victor Nikolaevich! In 1924, Sverdlov had long been in the afterlife ... wink
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 12 October 2020 14: 45
              +1
              Quote: Pan Kohanku
              in 1924 - it was personally Trotsky, Sverdlov, Dzerzhinsky

              "and who joined them Shepilov Kamenev ... ". laughing Your mistake, Victor Nikolaevich! In 1924, Sverdlov had long been in the afterlife ... wink

              conversation about leather jackets.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 12 October 2020 15: 03
                +6
                conversation about leather jackets.

                leather jackets were loved before the revolution! hi For example, in 1914, a special form of clothing was adopted for the 1st machine-gun company, including a leather jacket and a leather cap. Further, "leather jackets" became an indispensable attribute of the armored parts of the Russian Imperial Army.
                Here are the personnel of the company at the parting service before being sent to the front at the beginning of the First World War. In the background is an armored car on the chassis of the German Mannesmann-Mulag truck, armed with a 47-mm naval gun. To service this gun, several sailors were enlisted in the company staff. soldier

                And here is a shot from the TV series "Wings of the Empire". On the right, the desired "Mannesmann" is recreated. Recreated exactly, you can even see the beveled frontal sheet in front of the driver. Perhaps CGI - I haven't watched the show itself. hi
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 12 October 2020 15: 06
                  +1
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  Loved jackets were loved before the revolution! For example, in 1914 for the 1st auto-machine-gun company

                  do you think that the auto-machine-gun company pulled out the coffins from the Oryol mausoleum?
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 12 October 2020 15: 08
                    +4
                    do you think that the auto-machine-gun company pulled out the coffins from the Oryol mausoleum?

                    no, at that time it was already disbanded. request By the way, one of the most heroic units of the Russian army! In terms of the number of awardees, I think very few people could compare. hi
                    1. Bar1
                      Bar1 12 October 2020 15: 11
                      -1
                      Quote: Pan Kohanku
                      do you think that the auto-machine-gun company pulled out the coffins from the Oryol mausoleum?

                      no, at that time it was already disbanded. request By the way, one of the most heroic units of the Russian army! In terms of the number of awardees, I think very few people could compare. hi

                      but the leather jackets still remain?
                    2. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 12 October 2020 15: 18
                      +5
                      but the leather jackets still remain?

                      about whether these were leather jackets of the first armored parts, or sewn on special order for some gloomy people - I can't say! It is necessary to check the signatures on the leather jackets. laughing and they were definitely in leather jackets? grave destroyers?wink
                    3. Catfish
                      Catfish 12 October 2020 16: 25
                      +4
                      "... He was in a leather jacket, he was in leather pants,
                      He sang the folk song Murka, eh, with a tear in his eyes ... "(c)
                      You are all wrong, it was Semen Budyonny, which is recorded in the lines of this song. laughing

                      Semen Makhaylovich and Kliment Efremovich. soldier
                    4. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 12 October 2020 16: 56
                      +4
                      Semen Makhaylovich and Kliment Efremovich.

                      Stalin is with us,
                      And with an iron hand
                      Voroshilov leads us to victory!
                      drinks ("If tomorrow is war")

                      Although I like this photo more. People of the era! hi
          3. Catfish
            Catfish 12 October 2020 20: 52
            +5
            Seryoga Fil77 asked to share his vision of the "problems" of leather jackets.
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 12 October 2020 21: 02
              +4
              Quote: Sea Cat
              Seryoga Fil77 asked to share his vision of the "problems" of leather jackets.

              But for this addition, Konstantin ...
              Excellent, I love it! laughing hi
              I take off my cap!
      2. Undecim
        Undecim 12 October 2020 15: 01
        +8
        And he, the bastard, and from the other world could. You understand, it was in the official history that he died. And how it really happened, only Caballa knows.
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 12 October 2020 15: 06
          +4
          And he, the bastard, and from the other world could. You understand, it was in the official history that he died. And how it really happened, only Caballa knows.

          In fact, the Anunnaki took him to Mars. Together with the gold of the party. laughing (Albert - if you see this comment, don't be offended, for God's sake! drinks )
        2. Bar1
          Bar1 12 October 2020 15: 09
          0
          Quote: Undecim
          And he, the bastard, and from the other world could. You understand, it was in the official history that he died. And how it really happened, only Caballa knows.

          he did the same thing.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 12 October 2020 17: 04
    +4
    Dzerzhinsky loved a simple overcoat, a historical fact. soldier
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 12 October 2020 12: 09
    -2
    Quote: Bar1
    ... The coffins were taken out of the tomb, they were unsoldered, valuables were taken out (precious buttons, wearable crosses), then the remains of all buried Orlovs and Orlovs-Davydovs were burned in a large fire, among whom were: the hero of the Battle of Chesme, the first director of the Imperial Academy of Sciences, heroes of the Caucasian war of 1859 years, awarded orders and sabers "For Bravery", the founder of the Olginskaya Children's Hospital in Moscow, who allocated a million rubles for its construction and maintenance, another philanthropist, who allocated a million rubles for the construction of a warship in the Russian-Japanese in 1905. The tombstones were broken, some of the slabs were too heavy, and they were simply thrown at the gate of the tomb, where they remain to this day.

    And for some reason the author called the Church of the Assumption "the tomb", although for almost a hundred years the Orlovs 'tomb has served the fields of their estate, over which the ashes of the Orlovs' bodies burnt in a fire by the commissars have scattered ...

    To arrange PS in grave crypt club for ..... children is why not love your own children? fool

    PS2 The Orlovs' estate itself and the Nikolskaya church there were mutilated ...
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 12 October 2020 14: 06
      -2
      Quote: Olgovich
      PS to arrange a club in the grave crypt for ..... children - why shouldn't you love your children?

      Why are you knocking on your forehead like that? Gathering the living in places of euthanasia is certainly not in the traditions of the Russian people, but who said that they were Russians?
      By the way, this Joy became a burial ground not a hundred years ago, the Orlovs' descendants were reburied in 189 ...
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 13 October 2020 06: 14
        +2
        Quote: Bar1
        Why are you knocking on your forehead like that?

        I tried to reach YOU, but categorically it does not reach!

        ONCE AGAIN: I consider it wild and a crime to organize a club in a crypt.
        Quote: Bar1
        By the way, this Joy became a burial ground not a hundred years ago, the Orlovs' descendants were reburied in 189 ...

        By the way, who said that it became a tomb "a hundred years ago"?

        Who are you opposing? To yourself?
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 13 October 2020 08: 40
          +1
          Good question
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 12 October 2020 06: 24
    +9
    The article is definitely a plus, many thanks to Valery! The topic is extremely interesting !!!
    Regards, Vlad!
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 12 October 2020 06: 37
    +1
    After the coup, Ivan could for some time become the de facto shadow ruler of Russia, but he showed no interest in politics, was not ambitious and ambitious, apparently believing that he had already received more than he could have hoped for.

    Maybe he was just wise: what is it all for?
    Any researcher who studies documents of those years will very soon inevitably have very unflattering thoughts about the mental abilities of both Catherine and her associates.


    The results of the "century of the golden Catherine" inevitably evoke very unflattering thoughts about the mental abilities of such "researchers".

    The famous third letter of Alexei Orlov to Catherine of Ropsha, where he informs her about the murder of Peter III, is declared by some to be a fake.

    This is not a fake, this is a real deceitful letter, but Rostopchina, to the writing of which Orlov had nothing to do.

    The original "Orlov's letter" never existed.

    1. VLR
      12 October 2020 07: 16
      +9
      Results of the "Golden Age of Catherine": as usual, all achievements are attributed to one person - the ruling monarch. Meanwhile, many victories and successes were achieved not thanks to the activities of Catherine II, but in spite of her activities. Bringing serfdom to the absolute, the attachment of formerly free residents of Little Russia to the land and the transformation into serfs of state peasants, the emergence of four All-Russian slave markets (where they sold not the "basurman", but Russian Orthodox peasants, tearing up families), incredible spending on the favorites of the empress (in that the time when the soldiers and sailors of the active armies were starving and walking around in rags), a full-fledged Civil War directed personally against Catherine II (Pugachevshchina) and her loyal nobles - is this, in your opinion, the "Golden Age"? Many, imagining that time, imagine themselves as gallant guards officers or languid countesses, but practically all of us are descendants of ordinary people to whom the age of Catherine did not seem "Golden" at all.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 12 October 2020 09: 27
        -7
        Quote: VlR
        Results of the "Golden Age of Catherine": as usual, all achievements are attributed one person - the ruling monarch.


        You contradict your comment with your article about the Orlovs.
        Meanwhile, the many victories and successes have been accomplished were not thanks to the activities of Catherine II, but contrary to her activities.

        Yes, yes: Crimea, Sevastopol, Novorossiya, Ossetia, Little Russia (in many respects), Minsk, Kiev, Kuriles, Chukotka, etc. — all this is "in spite of" Ekaterina. yes

        And where would a huge part of the Russian people live?

        Quote: VlR
        Bringing serfdom to the absolute,

        Nonsense: New Russia was not enslaved under Catherine, rapidly filling cities and villages with free people from all over Europe, including Russia.

        And at the very peak of serfdom serfs in Russia were already ...34% population of Russia-wow, "absolute"!

        And yes, where this right was not, call it France, Germany, England?
        Quote: VlR
        - is this, in your opinion, the "Golden Age"?

        Of course: Russia grew rapidly fertile territories, population, grew up, grew up, and developed
        Quote: VlR
        Many, imagining that time, imagine themselves as gallant guards officers or languid countesses, but practically we are all descendants of ordinary people who did not think of the age of Catherine as "Golden" at all.

        1. Where, and to what ordinary people did their age seem like that in those days?

        It is not clear WHAT gave you the right to speak on behalf of all our ancestors?

        2. And yes - many happy people lived in Russia at that time: for example, those who were saved from extermination by inclusion in its borders and could live in their faith and traditions, trade, industry, construction, etc., grew rapidly, which gave income and the opportunity live and feed their families.
        1. Lannan Shi
          Lannan Shi 12 October 2020 11: 03
          -3
          Quote: Olgovich
          Yes, yes: Crimea, Sevastopol, Novorossiya, Ossetia, Little Russia (in many ways),

          The funniest thing is that Crimea and so on, rather the merit of that very Peter, and not Katya. Let's remember what the Seven Years War is. And this is a war between England and Prussia, against France and Austria. And if Austria and Prussia butted exclusively in Europe, then France and England and in the colonies frolicked with might and main. The result of the defeat of France was the loss of a very solid piece of colonies, read income. Plus, undermining the authority of the monarchy in the country. The defeat at least hastened the revolution. This is at least, perhaps if France and Austria had been defeated, the revolution would not have happened at all. The relationship between the French Revolution and the Crimea? Straight. France openly sponsored Turkey. 18th century - the era of permanent financial crisis among the Ottomans. And this crisis is one of the reasons for the decline of the Turkish army and navy. Preserve, let alone increase France's colonial income .. And, accordingly, opportunities for financial and technical assistance to the Ottomans .... And the victories in the wars of 1768-74 and 1787-91 might not be so convincing. More precisely, they probably would not be so convincing. And they might not have been at all. So if it were not for Peter the third, if Russia then pressed Prussia, and France, England, it is far from the fact that the same Sevastopol would exist at all. And Crimea, now, could well be Turkish. yes
          Union of Russia and France? In the 18th century? And even to fight for the interests of France? This is generally beyond reason. It's like now voluntarily going to the junior partners in the United States, and even begging for the owner to give the order to bomb someone as soon as possible, and indicated to whom, let's say, a piece of Siberia and the Kuban to give.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 12 October 2020 12: 17
            -1
            Quote: Lannan Shi
            about Crimea and so on, rather the merit of that very Peter

            Quote: Lannan Shi
            did not have would

            Quote: Lannan Shi
            were would

            Quote: Lannan Shi
            if would

            Quote: Lannan Shi
            existed would

            Quote: Lannan Shi
            quite would

            Quote: Lannan Shi
            РјРѕРіР »Ryo would
            Funny (without "would")! yes hi
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 13 October 2020 10: 40
        +2
        Quote: VlR
        Meanwhile, many victories and successes were achieved not thanks to the activities of Catherine II, but in spite of her activities.

        Yes, my, we have at least one head of state under whom victories and successes would be accomplished throughAnd not contrary to?
        ICH, the more successes there were, the more "in spite of" they were made. Trend adnakka ... smile
    2. VLR
      12 October 2020 07: 22
      +4
      About Orlov's letter: One can express doubts about its authenticity - no one forbids it. But to assert that he did not exist because he did not exist is simply strange. The existence of this letter is a historical mystery, the unambiguous solution of which is still impossible, before the discovery of new sources.
      But, even if we assume that this letter did not exist, this does not change anything, since there is a personal testimony of Alexei Orlov in Vienna from 1770, in which he speaks specifically about the murder of the emperor, names the name of the murderer and claims that he acted against his will then , directly hinting at the order of Catherine II.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 12 October 2020 09: 53
        -3
        Quote: VlR
        About Orlov's letter: One can express doubts about its authenticity - no one forbids it.

        You can express confidence in its authenticity - no one forbids it.
        Quote: VlR
        But to argue that he was not there because he was not - this is just weird.

        There is no such statement.

        There is simply NO such letter.

        Accordingly, there is nothing to discuss.
        Quote: VlR
        there is personal evidence Alexei Orlov in Vienna from 1770, in which he speaks specifically about the murder of the emperor,

        Oh, ANOTHER ONE handwritten Orlov's letter?

        Bring him in! yes
        1. VLR
          12 October 2020 11: 12
          0
          Have you read the article carefully? Not a letter, but Orlov's story at a reception with the Russian ambassador in Vienna Golitsyn, which his numerous listeners (both Russians and foreigners), independently of each other, conveyed in their memoirs in exactly the same way and without discrepancies: Alexei Orlov suddenly reports that Peter III F. Baryatinsky was killed in Ropsha. Alexey assures everyone that, being by nature, a very humane person, he would never have allowed this if it had not been for the order he received ...
          And who could have given him this order? Who most wanted to physically eliminate the legitimate emperor? It was Catherine. And one of the sources was cited:
          JH Casteras. Vie de Catherine II, imperatrice de Russie. Tome II. Paris, 1797.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 12 October 2020 12: 39
            -1
            Quote: VlR
            Have you read the article carefully? Not a letter, but Orlov's story at a reception with the Russian ambassador in Vienna Golitsyn,

            You are YOUR comment:
            Quote: VlR
            Yes personal testimony Alexei Orlov in Vienna from 1770
            -remember ?.

            Or do you just not understand what PERSONAL evidence is?

            Where is it here? He's gone. There is, again, allegedly, "evidence" Golitsyn about, allegedly, Orlov's "story".

            PS Please tell me where you can read the "memoirs" of Dmitry M. Golitsyn. about Orlov's story
            1. vladcub
              vladcub 12 October 2020 16: 51
              +1
              Olgovich, I have a plus for you: "where you can read the" memoirs "of Golitsin D. M about the story.
              Orlova "
          2. vladcub
            vladcub 12 October 2020 16: 48
            +2
            Valery, purely out of opposition, in your opinion, Alexey Orlov drank at the end and let's tell all of Europe
            The meaning was this: they drank and drank the saddles, and Baryatensky began to choke Peter 3. Why should I, with my vulnerable, observe such disgusting. Pour it on me quickly so that I get drunk and don't remember. It turns out that way.
            Did he bump his head to show off like that? After all, he raised his hand against the "anointed of God". "This is a shame for the entire nobility" (C). And Catherine will really like that Aleksey flutters his tongue. Here, as it were, the tongues were not pulled out. You know how it happens: someone was chatting too much, he was healthy in the evening, and in the morning: "after a long illness he died", or even went and disappeared altogether.
            In my opinion, Alexey is not so crazy
            1. VLR
              12 October 2020 17: 23
              0
              The situation here is very delicate. At the end of 1767, Catherine sent Alexei for "treatment" to Italy - in fact, into exile, forbidding him to return without permission - because she was afraid of him. In 1768, Alexei proposes to the empress a plan of operations in the Mediterranean Sea, achieves stunning success and prepares for a triumphant return to St. Petersburg. And so he, the winner under Chesme, arrives in Vienna - in the rank of a hero and an all-European celebrity, crowds of people follow him everywhere, vying with each other to call salons. And he was already sick of everything, he wants to go home, longing, nostalgia, and so on, but Catherine does not remove the ban on returning. And then, not just anywhere, but in the house of the Russian ambassador, Alexei unexpectedly for everyone (after all, no one asked) talks about the murder of Peter III - knowing for sure that this will be reported to St. Petersburg. This is a message to Catherine, a challenge, a warning: "I know a lot and I can tell a lot."
              Catherine did not dare to repress Orlova - here he calculated correctly: both the brother is still in the royal bedroom, and in Russia he is already declared a hero, it is inconvenient, somehow - both in front of Europe and in front of her own praetorian guards, who can take offense for their favorite. Again, Orlov has the Mediterranean squadron at his disposal. What if he does not surrender the command, but instead leads the ships to Petersburg? He's like that - he can, if he is pinned to the wall. His character is conveyed by his own words: he writes that when he saw a huge Turkish fleet in front of Chesma, "he was horrified, but decided." So it is here: he will be horrified, and then he will give the order: heading for Petersburg, we go home "to withdraw treason."
              Ekaterina made up with Orlov when Tarakanov needed to be found and arrested.
              1. vladcub
                vladcub 12 October 2020 19: 45
                +1
                Valery, you almost convinced me that it was not profitable for the empress to make Alexei "an enemy of the people, but she could have done it" suddenly. " we will not forget you, etc. Women are good artists. Already tested by many.
                This is purely theoretical, but the story of the lady is serious and does not like fortune-telling
              2. Olgovich
                Olgovich 13 October 2020 06: 49
                0
                Quote: VlR
                Coy celebrities, crowds of people follow him everywhere, vying with each other to call the salons. And he already aboutobjected to everythingI want to go home longing, nostalgia and so on, but Ekaterina ban on return does not take off.

                Evidence by this fabrications and inventionsthere is?

                But there is data in response to them:

                1. Count Orlov in 1767 became seriously ill, recovered, but was extremely weak (why not destroy him, just the moment?), Went, accordingly, for treatment abroad.

                Why did Catherine GRANT him 200 rubles in 000 and, in addition, at the same time, Alexei Grigorievich was awarded a knight Order of St. Andrew the First-Called

                Yes, this, "of course", "opal" and "link" is immediately evident.

                2. The plan for the war with Turkey is Orlov's plan, accepted Catherine, as well as the dispatch of squadrons to Wed. sea.

                "Opala", yes.

                3. In the Highest rescript dated January 29, 1769, HAS ORDERED and GIVEN COMPLETELY at his discretion "Preparations, orders and guidance of all this feat."

                What ityot will personally give such powerful force and power to the "disgraced" "exiled"?

                Funny
                Quote: VlR
                - knowing exactly what will happen about it reported to Petersburg. This is a message to Catherine, a challenge, a warning: "I know a lot and I can tell a lot."

                Please provide a report.

                And yes, where, after all, allegedly, "memoirs" of Golitsyn, where did you get his description of, allegedly, "story" Orlov :?
  • kalibr
    kalibr 12 October 2020 07: 26
    +3
    Great stuff, Valery !!!
  • Van 16
    Van 16 12 October 2020 07: 26
    +4
    It reads interesting, thanks
    I was in the Yuryev Monastery (mentioned in the article) about three years ago, not to say that it is bent over and it’s a disaster, but it doesn’t flourish at all, but it has great cultural significance.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 12 October 2020 07: 57
    +4
    Alexey Orlov is undoubtedly the most outstanding and outstanding representative of his family, if not the only truly outstanding and outstanding one. One victory in the Battle of Chesme would have immortalized his name forever.

    Ivan Aivazovsky "Chesme battle".

    Valery, thank you very much, I read all the articles with great interest and always find something new for myself. For example, I did not know anything about the youngest and oldest brothers. hi smile good
  • New Year day
    New Year day 12 October 2020 09: 15
    +3
    Very interesting, about everyone at once. The history of the country is wonderful and this history repeats itself.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 12 October 2020 10: 50
    +8
    Interesting material, thanks to the author. Some interpretations of historical events remain controversial, in particular, the author's assessment of Catherine II and the results of her reign, but I don't really want to argue, especially since Olgovich has already joined this process. smile
    Regarding A.F. Orlova:
    Alexei was also a combat officer, a participant in the battles of Austerlitz and Borodino. It was to him in 1819 that Pushkin dedicated these lines:
    Bellona's fiery pet,
    A loyal citizen is at the throne!
    Orlov, I will stand under the banners
    Your warlike squads.

    And two years before that, in 1817, it was different:
    Orlov with Istomina in bed
    In poor nudity lay.
    Did not stir in the hot case
    Inconsistent general.
    Do not think dear to offend,
    Took Laisa microscope
    And says: "Let me see,
    Than you me, my dear, (oh! repeat )

    So you can't get overwhelmed by Pushkin. smile
    Istomina is the one who later, probably around 1823
    Brilliant, semi-airy,
    The magic bow is obedient,

    Well, about Peter III - to be honest, I do not quite understand the heavy sighs of the author on his person. Well killed and killed. Many were then killed for much less worthy reasons. And this is not particularly a pity.
    However, when I mention Peter III, I always remember Alexander Gorodnitsky:

    At least for the fact that such a song was written about him, we can say thank you to Peter III. smile
    1. VLR
      12 October 2020 10: 56
      +2
      "Orlov with Istomina in bed"

      Probably, Alexander Sergeyich has matured in 2 years, and he began to pay attention not only to success in bed matters smile
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 12 October 2020 11: 16
        +3
        Quote: VlR
        Probably matured in 2 years Alexander Sergeich,

        Well, not very much and matured ... "I" fought "just in alcoves with the ladies ...
        But I still have the feeling that the very poem of Pushkin, dedicated to Orlov, from which the fragment for the article is taken, is much more ironic than enthusiastic. Although I don’t know, you cannot be sure of anything with these poets.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 12 October 2020 16: 16
          +4
          "Stupid so why kidding?
          What is it to them? I want with)
          1. Okolotochny
            Okolotochny 13 October 2020 14: 40
            +1
            To "The Tale of King Soltan"? Three girls under the window were spinning yarn in the evening.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 13 October 2020 15: 06
              +3
              Hi Aleksey. hi
              No, this is for the fairy tale "Tsar Nikita and his forty daughters" by the same author. And the "soltan" girls with "birds" seemed to be all right. But your comparison smiled at me. smile
              1. Okolotochny
                Okolotochny 14 October 2020 16: 08
                +2
                Greetings! Here you read battles in the comments (supporters of Fomenko's theory and respected members of the forum) and, involuntarily, you start looking for a second bottom in Pushkin's work))
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 15 October 2020 03: 27
                  +2
                  But it's true, after reading these comrades, you can go crazy in a moment and without much effort. laughing
    2. Van 16
      Van 16 12 October 2020 13: 58
      +4
      Thank you for Gorodnitsky, a good song, either I have not heard it before, or I missed it.
    3. Catfish
      Catfish 12 October 2020 16: 08
      +4
      Thank you, Mikhail! I always liked Gorodnitsky's songs, I heard this one a long time ago, in another life. Now I remembered everything: wine, guitar, candles ... Thank you. smile
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 12 October 2020 16: 24
        +4
        I don't know, it seems to me that Gorodnitsky was an artist's instinct, he understood very subtly both Peter himself and the situation around him. I like very much such literary works, in which every line, every word has a meaning, is in its place and gives the work its own unique meaning.
        Maybe because I myself am not endowed with the talent of brevity ... smile
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 12 October 2020 16: 32
          +3
          Gorodnitsky is a rare undisputed talent! And now the immortal has surfaced:
          "I don't dream about Tanya and not Gali, not native fields, not forests,
          In Senegal, brothers, in Senegal, I saw such miracles ... "
          Well, how can one not admire this, Lord, I would have such a sense of humor, but the Almighty did not favor it. smile
          Misha, your talent is all right, honestly. good
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 12 October 2020 17: 11
            +4
            My leader passed away this year. From his stories: came from the Far East to the Moscow region, to graduate school. I read several other people's dissertations. I thought, "I won't write that." Second thought: "But they won't write like me either."
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 12 October 2020 17: 23
              +3
              It is quite rightly said and literally about everyone. wink
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 12 October 2020 18: 01
                +2
                One of, in fact, aphorisms that I strongly remember. It remains to be fixed on paper.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 12 October 2020 20: 50
                  +3
                  Our Sergey, Phil77 asked to upload these pictures, he has no opportunity.

                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 12 October 2020 20: 58
                    +3
                    “And we all put a tricky answer,
                    And we don't find the right question "(c).
          2. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 12 October 2020 17: 47
            +4
            In order to express any thought, I need a lot of words. And if I force myself to express myself laconically, then it turns out somehow too harsh and not quite what I wanted to say. It remains to amuse myself with hopes that this is because there are many thoughts and they are complex, and not because I am a natural "world-door". Although who am I kidding? laughing
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 12 October 2020 18: 04
              +4
              It's the opposite for me. I write very tattered. I hope that everything is clear.
              And then, like Khoja Nasreddin, he has to explain what he wanted to say.

              It is good that fees depend little on the number of lines.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 12 October 2020 18: 09
                +3
                Yes, here to each his own. For me, for example, multi-line comments on VO are often written faster than messages in the messenger in three or four words. Especially if you need to express some ambiguous thought.
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 12 October 2020 18: 15
                  +3
                  And everyone will decide for themselves. The syllable, for example, of Lermontov differs from that of L. N. Tolstoy.
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 12 October 2020 18: 45
        +1
        Kostya, good evening. In my opinion: Okudzhava, Gorodetsky, Vizbor and Vysotsky are TALANTISH. It turned out that I did not immediately "see" Okudzhava, I liked someone else, and then I heard: "Seryozha with Malaya Bronnaya and Vitka with Mokhovaya" and he sunk into the soul.
        I can't sing, I have absolutely no hearing, but I love good performers. Now I thought: from those living today, except for Boyarsky, there are no people who are hooked. With all Boyarsky's quirks, talent cannot be taken away
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 12 October 2020 18: 59
          +4
          Quote: vladcub
          Seryozha s Malaya Bronnaya and Vitka s Mokhovaya "and he sunk into the soul.

          The lyrics and the song are great, but what does Okudzhava have to do with it? This is Evgeny Vinokurov! hi
    4. vladcub
      vladcub 12 October 2020 18: 19
      +3
      Mikhail, I agree with you: it is not clear why Valery "became so in love" in Peter 3.
      I just thought: Gorodetsky accurately described Peter3: "the emperor plays the violin, the state is leaving his hands." He is even worse than the henpecked Nikolashka. If you are the head of state, then if you please be a man, not a rag.
      1. VLR
        12 October 2020 18: 53
        +1
        Yes, no, why in love. It's just that two Russian emperors, Peter III and Paul I, have been slandered by their killers, and this slander has been repeated many times by the loyal historians of the Romanovs. And I'm just trying to be objective without hiding the weaknesses of the same Peter III, who, in fact, had quite reasonable intentions, but had neither the strength nor the will, not only to implement his program, but even to defend himself. And therefore, indeed, he was not very suitable for the role of the emperor, and his own Richelieu was not found for him.
        1. Kronos
          Kronos 12 October 2020 22: 54
          0
          In general, you are constantly writing that Catherine is so untalented imposter with postscripts, and Peter 3 is a giant of Russian thought.
          1. VLR
            13 October 2020 08: 14
            +1
            Well, why is Catherine II untalented? She had a great talent for self-promotion.
            Ya.L. Barskov, student of V.O. Klyuchevsky and teacher G.V. Vernadsky, one of the few admitted to the analysis of the manuscripts of the palace archive, editor and commentator of the 12-volume academic edition of the works of Catherine II, who knew more about her than you and I, wrote:
            "Lies were the queen's chief instrument; all her life, from early childhood to old age, she used this instrument as a virtuoso and deceived her parents, governess, husband, lovers, subjects, foreigners, contemporaries and descendants."
            K. Valishevsky noted that "in the art of leading the modern press, Catherine has reached perfection."
            Marat, who had not yet become a revolutionary, wrote:
            "Without waiting for the public to build her fame, she hired venal feathers to sing her praises."
            British Ambassador Harris back in 1778:
            "Catherine's good qualities were exaggerated, and her shortcomings were belittled."
            And so on - many historians, publicists, contemporaries and those who lived not so far from the rule of Catherine in the XNUMXth century, including Pushkin and Herzen, write about Catherine's ability to manipulate public opinion.
            As for Peter III, no one called him a giant of thought, but everything is learned in comparison, and even more so in comparison with the poorly educated Catherine II. It was impossible to hide the shortcomings of education, and Catherine herself admitted:
            "I was raised to marry some petty neighboring prince, and accordingly they taught me that."
            Having lived in Russia practically all her adult life, she never learned how to speak Russian, she had a terrible accent, she distorted and mispronounced even the simplest words. As a German, in German, again - by her own admission, she "spoke and wrote badly." She knew French better than others, but her contemporaries claim that she spoke some kind of "tabloid jargon", using a large number of Italian and German words.
            All this is not fiction, but irrefutable facts. The problem is that people, for the most part, do not want to know the truth, it is more convenient and comfortable for them to get by with myths.
            At the same time, Catherine II, unlike Peter III, was passive. And for the head of state, the factor of passionarity is much more important than education. Catherine used people who were much smarter and more capable of her, attributing to herself their merits. That is, many achievements of the "Golden Age" are quite real, but it is wrong to attribute them exclusively to Catherine's activities and associate them with her personality. And it is wrong to believe the testimony of conspirators and murderers who portrayed their victim as an alcoholic and an idiot. Life and real history are much more complicated than the schemes, and, moreover, the schemes of the old ones, drawn up under the dictation of the censors of the House of Romanov.
            1. Kronos
              Kronos 13 October 2020 10: 54
              0
              In other words, the achievements are real made by the hands of the people that she put forward, and after that you say that these are not her achievements? As for the education and knowledge of languages, all this is secondary and for some reason you believe this, but the data on the shortcomings of Peter 3 and Paul 1 understand this bias and lies.
        2. vladcub
          vladcub 13 October 2020 08: 55
          0
          Valery, you must agree that it will be unnatural if Catherine 2 with the Orlovs begins: "We, the persecuted, have ruined the innocent. We burn in hell." Ivan the Terrible had this: he executes a person, and then writes down
      2. Phil77
        Phil77 12 October 2020 19: 17
        +2
        Quote: vladcub
        If you are the head of state, then if you please be a man, not a rag.

        Peter the Third ruled for 186 days, during which time he issued 192 decrees, not counting the presentation for awards. Not an indicator, you tell me?
        But, there is one thing. Some decrees are attributed to Catherine. * Manifesto on liberty *, on the murders of serfs, and yes! As the respected Petrik 66 correctly wrote about the abolition of the secret office.
        Who knows what would happen next?
  • VLR
    12 October 2020 10: 58
    +2
    By the way, why do you think F. Orlov suddenly decided to throw the sailors of the "St. Eustathius" overboard? Were they afraid of heights and refused to jump themselves?
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 12 October 2020 16: 05
      +4
      Valery, they simply did not know how to swim, paradoxically, but in the sailing fleet, and on the steam, it was like that. But Orlov did everything right, if he wants to live, he will swim out, or he will drift on a piece of wood. And if he drowns, then everything is better than being burned alive.
    2. Phil77
      Phil77 12 October 2020 19: 19
      +2
      Greetings to you Valery!
      Sorry, I did not thank you for your work! Immediately rushed into the discussion. Thank you! Interesting, however, like many of your articles! hi
  • Petrik66
    Petrik66 12 October 2020 11: 47
    +2
    If we discard everything that was written about Peter during the time of Catherine and Karamzin, it turns out that either Peter himself, or the people around him, were very intelligent. They abolished the "Secret Chancellery", abolished trade monopolies, which gave huge benefits not to the state, but to families, abolished the monopoly of foreign trade, again working for the pocket of "confidants", took land from the Church, etc. Having made peace with Frederick, he brought Russia out of the war she did not need, but ... he wanted to send the guards to the war from Petersburg (a fatal mistake), and also send the slut wife and the English kept woman to prison. Killing for this is not enough.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 12 October 2020 16: 12
      +1
      Kamrad Petrik, actually, "made peace with Friedrich" there is so much: he loved Friedrich. Whether Russia needed this war or not, it is a fact that Russia then thoroughly punished Frederick. The army was "happy" that the victory was actually stolen
  • vladcub
    vladcub 12 October 2020 16: 00
    0
    "Orlov with a scar", do you know how he got a scar? They say that, even before the coup, the guard stood out: Alexei and Grigory Orlov and Shvanvich, the prototype of Shvabrin from 'The Captain's Daughter ", Shvanvich was distinguished by physical strength and a frenzied disposition. He and the Orlovs had frequent conflicts and agreed: if the tavern will be buzzing Shvanvich, and Alexei Orlov is the only one who leaves, but he comes with his brother, Shvanvich leaves.
    Once, the Orlovs went into the kayak, and there Shvanvich was "buzzing". The Orlovs threw him out. He watched Alexei and slashed his face with a saber. For this he was expelled from the guard. He joined Pugachev. After the suppression of the Pugachev uprising, Alexei, through mGrigory, fussed about condescension to Shvanvich
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 12 October 2020 16: 15
      +3
      Quote: vladcub
      ... For this he was expelled from the guard. He joined Pugachev.

      Sorry, but the son of the aforementioned Alexander Shvanvich-Mikhail joined Pugachev. hi
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 12 October 2020 19: 31
        0
        Probably, I mixed up the names, I read in front of the army, but I remember that Alexei acted nobly.
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 12 October 2020 19: 36
          +1
          Quote: vladcub
          Alexey

          So! Stop! I'm already risking confusion! Alexander, Mikhail's father, ended his life commanding the 3rd garrison battalion, in Kronstadt, in 1792. And what kind of Alexei are we talking about? recourse
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 13 October 2020 11: 14
            0
            I spoke about Alexey Orlov, and you?
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 13 October 2020 19: 12
              0
              Quote: vladcub
              about Alexei Orlov, and you?

              So after all, about Schwanwich. winked
    2. Phil77
      Phil77 12 October 2020 19: 44
      0
      Quote: vladcub
      For this he was expelled from the guard.

      Not quite so. After the coup, he was mistakenly ranked among the supporters of the deposed emperor, they imprisoned, sat, sorted it out, went out. And then, to Ukraine, to the usual unit, but ... a captain! wink
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 12 October 2020 16: 46
    +2
    Representatives of the glorious Bobrinsky family can still be found in different parts of the world. And you don't have to travel far.
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 12 October 2020 19: 05
      +2
      Greetings Sergey!
      Do you mean Nikolai Nikolaevich Bobrinsky, from Moscow State University? hi
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 12 October 2020 19: 24
        +2
        I don't know him. Unlike Alexey Nikolaevich.

        In general, the world is small. But, probably, not everyone wants their biography to be scraped with a knife.
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 12 October 2020 19: 25
          +2
          Quote: Korsar4
          I don't know him.

          I read about him. He serves at the library of Moscow State University.
        2. Phil77
          Phil77 12 October 2020 19: 28
          +2
          Quote: Korsar4
          Unlike Alexey Nikolaevich.

          Aha! Here is his interview about the Mother of God in front of me.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 12 October 2020 19: 34
            +2
            Yes. He is.

            In general, there are funny stories. For example, you return from the Pushkin Hills by bus, and you realize that your interlocutor is a descendant of Alexander Pushkin.
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 12 October 2020 19: 40
              +2
              Oh yes! But these men, opp! And it turns out that the descendants of Catherine!
              How can one not remember here ?!
              * Tsar. Very nice king. * wink
  • vladcub
    vladcub 12 October 2020 20: 02
    -1
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Bar1
    Russian peasants were very squeamish to deal with such dirt.

    And they dabbled in sleepwalking all the time!

    And this is an attempt to overcome disgust