Military Review

Can Cellini's Venus be faked?

130
Can Cellini's Venus be faked?
Russian President V. Putin examines the statues of Greek kouros in the Acropolis Museum in Athens, 2001. Photo: kremlin.ru


- How kind it was of Monsieur Van Gogh - to sign only with his name! For me, this is a time saver.
Papa Bonnet forging Van Gogh's signature. Comedy "How to Steal a Million"


Technologies historical science. There is probably no person in our country who has not seen this American comedy directed by William Wyler with the inimitable Audrey Hepburn and the charming Peter O'Toole in the lead roles. It is about the abduction from the museum of the marble statuette of Venus Cellini (the creation of Benvenuto Cellini), which was actually made by Bonnet's father from his grandmother, and, of course, even before she began to overeat at dinner. The intrigue revolves around the expert Dr. Bauer, who must authenticate Venus, the insurance for which is exactly one million dollars. And Bonnet's daughter, Nicole, explains to her dad that forgeries in sculpture do not work out, because there is such a thing as potassium-argon, with which they determine the age of the stone, the place where it was mined, and even the address of the sculptor who is the product sculpted. Then love intervenes and a lot of interesting things happen. However, this is a movie. And cinema is cinema! But how, in reality, modern scientists determine whether this or that marble artifact is genuine, or is it nothing more than a well-made fake? This is what our story will go on today, and in order for it not to be too academic and boring, it will be illustrated by shots from the movie How to Steal a Million and photographs of kuros from the most famous museums in the world.


Here she is, Venus Cellini from the movie. True, he did not really create such a sculpture, but this is a film ...

As an example of such work, we will take a real case that occurred back in 1984. One could find more modern examples, but here it is important to show how this was done even then. Because today science has gone even further.

That year, the J. Paul Getty Museum in Malibu, California, was offered to buy an antique statue of a young athlete (kouros) made of marble. The statue was more than two meters high and is perfectly preserved, despite the fact that it was more than 2500 years old. The problem arose due to the fact that art critics did not know it, as it was in one of the private collections in Sweden. The newspapers got to the bottom of the fact that for the kuros his owner requested from 8 to 12 million dollars, that is, an exceptionally large amount for a completely unknown statue.


Papa Nicole erases the primer from the canvases of the late XNUMXth century in order to apply it later to his canvases and says that without this there is no scent of authenticity ...
- I do not think that Van Gogh his paintings were worth such hard work.
- So he was Van Gogh.
- All this is true, but it is known that in his entire life he sold only one painting. And your father, to perpetuate his tragic genius, has already sold two

Marion Tru, curator of the museum of the department of antiquities, invited art critics to see it, and most of them considered it genuine. But there were those who doubted its authenticity, motivating their opinion by the fact that the statue has stylistic deviations from all known samples. And something really well preserved! Then she was examined in ultraviolet rays, which made it possible to find more suspicious features. Usually, ancient marble products in ultraviolet light have an amber tint with some purple blotches. While this figure had a shade of light purple, usually characteristic of modern pieces. Naturally, no one was going to pay millions for a fake, so the workers turned to scientists.


Dr. Bauer is coming, and Papa Bonnet just got insurance for his Venus. Now the deception will definitely be revealed and there will be an unheard of scandal!

Stanley V. Margolis was invited, who has been doing research for over a year. Moreover, he was even allowed to drill a core from the statue in order to take small samples of stone for analysis. Until then, none of the marble sculptures had been subjected to such a scrupulous scientific analysis, but today such scientific methods of identifying the authenticity of marble sculptures are used in all major museums in the world.


Meanwhile, Venus, guarded by the police, is being taken to an exhibition in a museum!

Prior to this, experts studied the style of the sculpture and used the method of comparative iconography to distinguish the fake artifact from the original. Well, the age of the sculpture was judged by its surface layer, the so-called patina. Moreover, marble turned out to be very resistant to weathering, so that traces of aging and environmental impact on it with the naked eye are impossible. However, the demand for "antiques" over time led to the fact that fake sculptures began to be buried in the pasture where cows were grazing, and also to specially age their surfaces with acid vapors.


Nicole is lost in thought. However, even a frown suits her, and it is no wonder that Simon Dermot falls head over heels in love with her ...
- Why do you want to steal this particular figurine?
“Don't you think that I can steal something from someone else?
- I lost sight of that. Maybe we can steal her when she gets home?

At the same time, geochemists have a wealth of experience in studying the properties of marble and rocks such as limestone, which, as you know, under the influence of high temperatures and pressure, turns into marble. Thanks to the study of rocks extracted by drilling from the bottom of the ocean, it was possible to date the ice ages, and much to learn for the reconstruction of those natural conditions under which, for example, the extinction of dinosaurs occurred on our planet.


The security problem is always the same. Her vigilance dulls over time ...

There are many types of analyzes that allow you to "talk" even the most "silent" stone. For example, the ratios of stable isotopes of carbon and oxygen in marble and limestone samples have been found to vary depending on their origin. Isotope analysis makes it possible to identify changes due to weathering or burial in the soil. Microscopic analysis of a piece of marble in polarized light reveals irregularities in its structure, and by measuring the wavelength of X-rays emitted by samples during irradiation, one can easily determine even the smallest concentrations of impurity elements in them. That is why, by the way, after 1945 it became extremely problematic to use stone from quarries, as well as wood and paper for counterfeiting ... Since then, a lot of all radioactive rubbish has got into the atmosphere, and it is very easy to fix all these man-made elements.


Who would have thought that the thief of the sculpture is this cleaning lady ?!

The Kuros in question was hewn out of dolomite, a highly resistant type of marble, circa 540 and 520. BC e. The statue itself consisted of seven parts and was 206 cm high.

With the permission of the owner, they drilled a column with a diameter of 1 cm and a length of 2 cm below the right knee, where a small crack had formed in ancient times. The column was cut into thin layers and they began to be examined through an electron microscope. Other samples were taken using a mass spectrometer. X-ray diffraction and fluorescence methods were also used to determine the content of impurities and foreign inclusions in them.


Simon Dermon guides daddy Bonnet on the right path:
- A phenomenally capable boy! He set me so firmly on the true path that I can neither get lost nor come back

First of all, it turned out that the marble from which the kouros was made is practically pure dolomite (or calcium-magnesium carbonate), that is, a rarer variety of marble than marble, which consists of calcite (calcium carbonate). It is both more durable and resistant to weathering, as a result of which this statue, apparently, is so well preserved.


And this is exactly the same kouros from the Paul Getty Museum in question. By the way, what are kuros in general? These are figures of naked youths with a smile on their lips and in static poses, characteristic of Greek sculpture from the period 650-500. BC. Barks, similar to female sculptures, have always been depicted wearing folded chitons

By chemical composition, it was possible to find the place where this marble was mined: the ancient quarries at Cape Vafi on the island of Thasos, the oldest among those where dolomite marble was mined from time immemorial. Well, historians, as it turned out, knew that it was on the island of Thasos that the production of large kouros was located. That's just the question of authenticity, this did not solve, because marble on this very island is mined to this day.

Then the surface of the statue was examined under a strong optical microscope and it was found that it was covered with a thin layer of brown patina, consisting of iron oxides, clay-soil minerals and even inclusions of manganese oxides. In addition, the most weathered surface of the kouros was covered with calcite 10-50 µm thick. The research was carried out at the University of California, but then replicated at the Institute for the Conservation of Cultural Monuments at Marina del Rey in Los Angeles.


Kouros from the National Archaeological Museum in Athens. Height 1,94 m.Approx. 530 BC

And this was the main argument in the question of the antiquity of the statue. Even in a modern laboratory, turning dolomite particles into calcite on the surface of a two-meter statue is completely unthinkable. In addition, such elements as strontium, manganese, etc. would have been found in the "fresh" dolomite and calcite layer. And they were in the calcite layer, but completely absent in the dolomite layer! That is, it was proved that the calcite layer on the statue was formed naturally.


Kuros from the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York

Based on these data, the scientists concluded that the calcite layer on the museum of interest to the kouros was the result of weathering that the statue had been exposed to for many, many centuries.

However, the staff of the Getty Museum found all this a little and they made a detailed comparison of the statue with 200 other statues of the kouros that have come down to us in whole or in part, and it also confirmed its antiquity. So, after 14 months of painstaking research, the authenticity of the kouros was proven. The museum has finally decided to buy it. Already in the fall of 1986, it was exhibited in a museum, and it was protected from tremors by a complex system of cables and springs made, moreover, of stainless steel.


Marble statue from the Kunstmuseum in Vienna. Now there is no longer any problem in order to establish the authenticity of this artifact!

Well, today, for a successful analysis of antique marble sculptures, just a pinhead sample taken from a place on the sculpture where the most sophisticated connoisseur of this "withdrawal" will not even notice is enough.

Использованная литература:

Stanley W. Margolis. Authentication of antique marble sculptures using geochemical methods. Scientific American. Edition in Russian. 1989. No. 8. S. 66-73.
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  1. Catfish
    Catfish 15 October 2020 05: 58
    18
    Good morning to all kind people. smile
    Vyacheslav, thank you! I wonder how much these studies cost the museum, since such a "good" amount was at stake.
    And it is very nice that we remembered this film, it is really done perfectly. According to the plot, everything ended quite well there, and the fake “Venus” was still sold to one eccentric American millionaire, played by actor Eli Wallach, who is well known to our viewers as the ataman Culvera from the inimitable “Magnificent Seven”.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 15 October 2020 07: 25
      +6
      Quote: Sea Cat
      actor Eli Wallach, well known to our viewer for the role of chieftain Culvera from the inimitable "The Magnificent Seven".

      He is "evil".
    2. Avior
      Avior 15 October 2020 08: 02
      +5
      Yes, it ended well.
      With one small addition.
      They didn’t sell it, but gave it away for free on the condition that he would never show it to anyone.
      But the parasha, it seems, did not take the path of correction. smile
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 15 October 2020 08: 08
        +4
        When I wrote "vparili", I meant that they gave him a fake, passing it off as the original.
      2. Avior
        Avior 15 October 2020 09: 02
        +6
        so, I saw a typo.
        "daddy" of course. autocorrect is a scary thing smile
      3. vladcub
        vladcub 15 October 2020 18: 11
        +2
        Quite right, Monsieur Bonet at the end of the film, again returned to the old one.
        Moral: "only the grave will fix the hunchback"
      4. Alf
        Alf 15 October 2020 20: 04
        +4
        Quote: Avior
        They didn’t sell it, but gave it away for free on the condition that he would never show it to anyone.

        As far as I remember, O'Toole's character was talking about the sum of five zeros.
        1. Avior
          Avior 16 October 2020 07: 35
          +1
          But he didn't really take the money, as far as I remember, at least in the film I don't remember it.
          Otherwise he would have become a fraud, which cannot be imagined from the plot.
          The main purpose of the transfer of the statuette is the American's refusal from Nicole.
          Actually, Dad Bone himself did not take money for this particular statuette either, and finding out that it was not genuine did not threaten him with anything, except for the loss of reputation.
          But that would entail checking all the "masterpieces" he sold
          1. Alf
            Alf 16 October 2020 16: 02
            +1
            Quote: Avior
            But he didn't really take the money, as far as I remember, at least in the film I don't remember it.
            Otherwise he would have become a fraud, which cannot be imagined from the plot.
            The main purpose of the transfer of the statuette is the American's refusal from Nicole.
            Actually, Dad Bone himself did not take money for this particular statuette either, and finding out that it was not genuine did not threaten him with anything, except for the loss of reputation.
            But that would entail checking all the "masterpieces" he sold

            Perhaps I will not argue.
      5. businessv
        businessv 17 October 2020 20: 24
        0
        Quote: Avior
        But the parasha, it seems, did not take the path of correction.

        Now, if we assume that we are not talking about a film, but about a country known to everyone, then a variegated answer could sound something like this: How can he do this ?! He's a PARASHA !!! Although, in this case, Waltzman is preferable, in my opinion - fewer options for mockery. Sergey, I understand that there was a mistake! wink
  2. ee2100
    ee2100 15 October 2020 06: 47
    +2
    Good morning!
    I would like to touch upon the topic of the negotiability of stone products, raised by the author in an article about bas-reliefs from Turkey.
    It will not be difficult to find information on the "service life" of this or that natural stone on the Internet. So monuments made of granite, according to various estimates, will stand in open space and being suspended by various climatic influences from 500 to 1000 years. Marble, as a softer material in structure, is 300 - 500 years old. Naturally, one must take into account in what place the stone sought.
    If a stone is mined from a quarry (quarry), it has the same characteristics, and if you take a stone from the soil, there are many such stones in the northwest, then this stone is considered "dead" and is practically useless.
    I must say right away that I am not a supporter of the theory of a new chronology, but this information is available to any person and is absolutely ignored by historians.
    A few words about the eternal city, about Rome. Whoever was that saw the ruins of red (ceramic) bricks. You even get a little tired of them. So the service life of a brick is 300-400 years, and this is taking into account the ideal foundation, thick walls and low storeys.
    It turns out that the two scientific directions are developing in parallel and do not intersect, I'm talking about history and sapromat.
    1. kalibr
      15 October 2020 06: 50
      11
      Just in this case, SEVERAL scientific directions intersected at once, isn't it? In the castles-museums of Könixberg, I saw bricks with a wolf's paw print. This is a sign of the brick-makers' workshop who built castles for the crusaders. In Soviet times, it would not have occurred to anyone to fake THIS, and why? Then there were no doubters ... But when did they start building castles in those places? I'll tell you for sure: there were 1290 stone castles in the lands of the Order in 90. And - yes, almost all are in ruins. But bricks with a paw are still being found, and the damp dungeons lined with stone and bricks are intact ... That time ...
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 15 October 2020 08: 04
        -1
        In your last article, you brought bas-reliefs from sandstone, and I'm from a well-known stone that is about 500 years old and which has been stored for the last 300 years in almost ideal conditions, but the image in my photo is many times worse than in the above photos, the bas-reliefs of which are more than 2000 years old.
        The question is old. Is Sapromat not science?
        1. kalibr
          15 October 2020 08: 17
          +3
          Quote: ee2100
          Is Sapromat not a science?

          Why not science, why such extremes? In each case, you need to look!
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 15 October 2020 08: 19
            -1
            Those. as regards the construction of sapromat science, but this is not applicable to historical artifacts
          2. kalibr
            15 October 2020 08: 25
            +6
            Take a look. Found a photo from my childhood. It is 1970. Please note that I have an 1895 hard drive in my hands. He hung in our house under his grandfather's cloak. Grandfather received it in 1918, when he went with a food detachment to get bread. Nobody looked after him, did not lubricate, did not clean. But when I got my hands on it, it looked almost like new and worked great! I went away with him out of town and fired at the crows from the bottom of my heart ... And at home in the garden ... That is, how old was he? And the preservation was excellent. But ... in our shed, under the floorboards, I found our Russian carbine of 1907 - all rusty. Although it was dry in the barn and it was not lying on bare ground, but wrapped in a tarp!
            1. Yurahip
              Yurahip 15 October 2020 08: 52
              13
              Citizens! Keep your trunks at home behind your raincoats in the closet, no one will find them there for forty years!
              And in the shed under the floor the cadet will find the plitsy.
            2. Yurahip
              Yurahip 15 October 2020 11: 33
              +5
              Vyacheslav Shpakovsky is a real Indian from the Pancho Villa detachment.
              M1895 winchesters were delivered by America and to Mexico.
              The author apparently still has a twentieth caliber single-shot frolovka.
              1. kalibr
                15 October 2020 11: 45
                +2
                Quote: Jurachip
                The author apparently still has a twentieth caliber single-shot frolovka.

                At that time I did not understand weapons. And - yes, most likely a single charge. The giver was not there. What my grandfather told me, then ... he repeated. The cartridges were very beautiful - copper casings, in some places even with greens. Caliber less than 16, that's for sure. But then I sold it, alas ...
            3. vladcub
              vladcub 15 October 2020 18: 24
              +1
              Q. Oh, drop your addresses, and I'll get out at my leisure to look. What if I find a working barrel?
            4. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 15 October 2020 20: 41
              +2
              Magnefito cabalero !!!
              Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
          3. ee2100
            ee2100 15 October 2020 09: 36
            +2
            It's always like this. A specific question is an "evasive" answer
        2. Hantengri
          Hantengri 15 October 2020 09: 01
          +9
          Quote: ee2100
          Is Sapromat not a science?

          Саmiss - no.
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 15 October 2020 09: 37
            0
            Well, what about history?
            1. Hantengri
              Hantengri 15 October 2020 09: 45
              10
              History - yes. And sopromat is also yes, but sapromat is not.
              1. Van 16
                Van 16 15 October 2020 10: 27
                +6
                I remembered - "I passed the materials, you can marry"))
                TMM (theory of machines and mechanisms) - Here is My Grave, DM (machine parts) - and My Friend. smile
                1. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 15 October 2020 19: 14
                  +1
                  Quote: Van 16
                  I remembered - "I passed the materials, you can marry"))
                  TMM (theory of machines and mechanisms) - Here is My Grave, DM (machine parts) - and My Friend. smile

                  Unfortunately, or fortunately, I didn't have to face either the first, or the second, or the third. Our main student nightmare was called: "MMF" - Methods of Mathematical Physics.
                  1. Aviator_
                    Aviator_ 15 October 2020 20: 53
                    +1
                    And there was no theoretical physicist, and even according to the textbook written by Landavshits?
                    1. Hantengri
                      Hantengri 15 October 2020 21: 19
                      +1
                      Without fail! Anywhere without her. It's just that MMF, not because of some of its supernatural ingenuity, but solely because of some peculiarities of the teacher's personality, was for us a real hell on Earth.
                      1. Aviator_
                        Aviator_ 15 October 2020 23: 00
                        +1
                        I consider Landavshits to be among the filthy textbooks, who for his course in theoretical physics (with errors) was very poorly written, managed to get the Lenin Prize. And they also read this course to us extremely badly. And the urmats were quite good, read Nikita Vyacheslavovich Zvolinsky, a neat grandfather who came to lectures in summer and winter on a trophy motorcycle with a sidecar. In his youth, he himself was the permanent scientific secretary of the Chaplygin seminar at TsAGI in the 30s.
                      2. Kwas
                        Kwas 17 October 2020 08: 12
                        0
                        And I liked the "mechanics". Simple and beautiful. Well, then - yes, darkness. And Igor was wrong - the Quants were the worst nightmare we had!
                    2. Kwas
                      Kwas 17 October 2020 08: 14
                      0
                      Have you forgotten the quanta?
                    3. Aviator_
                      Aviator_ 17 October 2020 08: 30
                      0
                      The quanta read well. Now I read it myself.
                    4. Kwas
                      Kwas 17 October 2020 11: 00
                      +1
                      My regards! hi A difficult subject, few of the students figured it out, despite the quality of the teaching.
  3. Undecim
    Undecim 15 October 2020 10: 22
    +8
    The science of "sapromat" does not exist.
  • kalibr
    15 October 2020 07: 03
    +6
    Here is one of those bricks. Today there are people - they are called brick hunters - who collect bricks and know a lot about them. In the collection of one of them there are bricks of the Livonian Order, the Order of the Swordsmen ... from the founding of the Dome Cathedral ... They will tell you about 300-400 years ... Here is a photo of a brick from the collection of its author.
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 15 October 2020 07: 54
      0
      Where is the Dome Cathedral?
      1. kalibr
        15 October 2020 08: 10
        0
        I don't know Alexander. I read an interview with a person who does this. It is on the Web ...
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 15 October 2020 08: 13
          0
          Your brick seemed to have been brought from the workshop yesterday.
          1. kalibr
            15 October 2020 08: 34
            +3
            This is not for me. This is for brick hunters. This is the age of the Internet. Anyone can be found, asked and received any necessary information. Is it interesting for you? Dial - Brick Hunter Pictures. Find this brick among them, a link to the interview from the photo, read it, find out who to write to ... etc. I am sure that the person will answer you with pleasure! Now the time for fortune-telling is over. Any information from any place is available!
      2. Galleon
        Galleon 16 October 2020 15: 55
        +3
        There is only one Dome Cathedral, in Riga. The beginning of construction around 1200.
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 16 October 2020 18: 13
          0
          Tallinn has a Dome Cathedral (Toom kirik), but brick is definitely not one of them.
  • Avior
    Avior 15 October 2020 09: 11
    +2
    the service life of bricks is 300-400 years, and this is taking into account the ideal foundation, thick walls and low storeys.


    Simultaneously with the construction of the Grand Ducal Palace and the renovation of the Kremlin churches, the construction of new Kremlin walls and towers proceeded. Beginning in 1485, for a whole decade, under the leadership of Italian architects, the white-stone walls and towers were dismantled, and new ones were erected in their place from fired bricks.

    Stood not according to GOST, is it time to fall? smile
    the sample will be older
    1. BAI
      BAI 15 October 2020 09: 35
      +8
      And the Kremlin walls, indeed, are not made of bricks according to GOST. The pre-revolutionary brick in general, and the Kremlin brick in particular, is of a different size. More than the current one. Moreover, the Kremlin brick is larger than the usual brick of the 19th century. Those. from the time of the construction of the Kremlin to the present day, the size of the bricks has decreased at least 2 times (in 2 stages). When the Kremlin was restored in the 70s of the last century, a special line for the production of Kremlin bricks was made at the Zagorsk Brick Factory. And if we look at old and modern bricks - their consistency is different, i.e. they were made from different materials (more precisely, with different additions to clay).
      1. Avior
        Avior 15 October 2020 09: 40
        +3
        I am sure that the Italian bricks of the fortress, which served as a model, are also not according to guests.
        It turns out that the guest needs to be changed so that they serve for more than 300 years. smile
      2. ee2100
        ee2100 15 October 2020 09: 42
        0
        Not only the Zagorsk plant "worked" on restoration
    2. ee2100
      ee2100 15 October 2020 09: 41
      0
      Do you know anything about the post-war restoration of the Moscow Kremlin? Look on the Internet, and then upload photos
  • Undecim
    Undecim 15 October 2020 11: 37
    +7
    brick service life 300-400

    Bromley Hall is the oldest brick building in London - 1480-1485.
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 15 October 2020 18: 05
      0
      "Bromley Hall was purchased in 2001 by Leaside Regeneration. This partnership has completed a £ 1.1m restoration project to bring the building back into use as serviced office units for small businesses." English Wiki. This building was restored after 2001. Yes, there are some old elements of the XNUMXth century.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 15 October 2020 19: 08
        +5
        Yes, there are some old elements of the XNUMXth century.
        And what, if not a secret?
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 15 October 2020 19: 12
          0
          Foundation, beams 15th century and something else needs to be watched
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 15 October 2020 19: 13
            +4
            When you look, in the basement there is a preserved brick arch from the previous building of the XNUMXth century. Not restored.
        2. Liam
          Liam 15 October 2020 19: 26
          +6
          Restoration of brick facades of old houses is in 99% of cases just washing them with special detergents in order to remove dirt, smog, salts. Bricks are porous and "absorb" all these impurities from which they become dark in color. Washing returns them to their original color. Plus after Sinks apply special compounds that form a semblance of a film on the surface and limit the absorption of dirt in the future. The same restorative procedures are also for facing marble (travertino), for stone, etc. Conservative restoration is so-called. Colosseum marble was recently cleaned like that.
          One of the leaders in the production of compounds and procedures for such restorations is Docchem. There are different products for different types of materials - Unidoc, Lapidoc, etc.
          It's just that people unfamiliar with these things hear about the restored facade or statues and think that everything is already a remake and not the original building.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 15 October 2020 19: 28
            +5
            According to the "sapramat", everything should have been overwhelmed 400 years ago. And "sapramat" is a science !!!
            1. Liam
              Liam 15 October 2020 19: 45
              +2
              Quote: Undecim
              "sapramat

              Inaccessible to many)
              Here is a video of how such restorations take place.
              https://youtu.be/RSNEtdgPbnI
              1. Simargl
                Simargl 16 October 2020 04: 58
                0
                Quote: Liam
                Inaccessible to many)
                Саetc.аmat? Really.
                Maybe CADMAT?
                Or, nevertheless, withоetc.о[.]mat[.]?
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 15 October 2020 20: 45
            +3
            Bravo, colleague!
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 15 October 2020 19: 04
    +6
    Quote: ee2100
    Marble, as a softer material in structure, is 300 - 500 years old.

    You forgot to add: "in modern conditions". The main factor affecting the deterioration of marble in our time is the increased content of carbon oxides and other nasty things in the air, which, in turn, is a consequence of the exhaust of cars. In the pre-automotive era, this factor was absent as a phenomenon.
    This sculpture is from the collection in Sweden, in which the ecology is more or less good.
    By the way, marble statues did not stand in antiquity.
    brick service life 300-400 years

    It depends on what, in what conditions the building is used, how well it is built and there are many more factors that cannot be taken into account.
    Again, a "lifespan" of, say, a hundred years does not mean that after this period the house will turn into a pumpkin at 24:00 local time.
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 15 October 2020 19: 26
      -1
      That you all rushed to defend the official view of history and about the special storage of marble statues, write some special marble, and you rests on the fact that in the Middle Ages, ecology, incl. Sweden was better.
      Do you have any data on building materials from them to push yourself off? Will the invented artifacts fall? Simply put, we will drive a blizzard - is it easier than thinking logically?
      About 24-00. Modern buildings are designed for an average of 100 years. In this case, there is an interaction of concrete (alkali) and reinforcement (iron oxide, as an acidic environment)
      Khrushchev's five-story buildings also had their own lifespan. Successfully stepped over it. So why these laws do not work when it comes to history.
      Constantine, at my request, posted here a photo of the 13th century chapel. It's okay what's left of her. Of course, if these ruins would have been laid with bricks in the 19th century, the view would have been better, but one could safely write that this is a 13th century building.
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 15 October 2020 20: 04
        +5
        Quote: ee2100
        Khrushchev's five-story buildings also had their own lifespan. Successfully stepped over it.

        In principle, and I tell you about it :)))
        Quote: ee2100
        So why these laws do not work when it comes to history.

        They just work. If a Khrushchev building designed for 100 years in the Novosibirsk academic town with a calendar age of more than fifty years, has no more than 20-30% wear and tear and this does not contradict the resistance to materials, then why should a well-preserved antique statue contradict?
        Quote: ee2100
        Simply put, we will drive a blizzard - is it easier than thinking logically?

        I don't know why you are doing these. I mean, chase the blizzard.
        You were shown an ancient brick, and you immediately bleated that it was like "just from the workshop." I'm sorry, have you ever been there? In a brick factory. So I have worked for more than ten years and I immediately see that the brick is old and made according to technologies that are no longer used now. It was not molded in a modern press, it was not cut with a machine, it was not subjected to intensive drying, it has neither a stripe nor an s-shaped crack, despite the fact that the molding is clearly plastic. And even the brand is on the spoon, and not on the end, as on modern ones.
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 15 October 2020 22: 12
          +1
          Yes, I am Aries by horoscope, and who are you?
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 16 October 2020 01: 46
            +2
            But this is a completely amazing thesis.

            Interestingly, Timur Shaov with "Astrological Song" would cheer you up?
          2. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 17 October 2020 08: 54
            0
            The weight of this argument can hardly be overestimated!
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 16 October 2020 01: 43
      +3
      To be more precise, we can talk about "acidic" gases - oxides of sulfur, nitrogen.

      They (of anthropogenic origin) have been in the air before. Back in 1306, Edward issued the First decree, prohibiting the burning of coal in the city of London.

      But, of course, the appearance of a massive CHP, and then cars, radically changed the picture.
  • businessv
    businessv 17 October 2020 20: 34
    0
    Quote: ee2100
    It turns out that the two scientific directions are developing in parallel and do not intersect, I'm talking about history and sapromat.
    Well, colleague, sopromat does not intersect with history in any way! History is a subtle matter and from time to time changed at the request of the authors, and sopromat is an honest science, accurate and not tolerating mistakes! It is not for nothing that we had a saying on the course: "I passed the material, you can get married!" drinks For those who are not in the know, resistance of materials is resistance of materials. smile
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 15 October 2020 06: 59
    +6
    Audrey Hepburn appeared in the discussion recently. He began to close the open niche - looked at the beginning of this picture.

    I remember my feelings when I looked at a painting by Van Gogh:
    1. The canvas wants to break out of the frame - and run away.
    2. Look a couple more minutes - you will start to go crazy.

    Although here it was not without the influence of "Lust for Life".

    I wonder if fakes can do the same? I admit it. Here the question is more - who looks and what sees.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 15 October 2020 07: 20
      +5

      I remember my feelings when I looked at a painting by Van Gogh:
      1. The canvas wants to break out of the frame - and run away.
      2. Look a couple more minutes - you will start to go crazy.

      Emotions of the same genesis. Van Gogh is very difficult to perceive (and this is despite all my love for impressionism)
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 15 October 2020 07: 26
        +4
        And the reproductions do not convey the impressionists.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 15 October 2020 08: 10
          +4
          I agree! Take an interest: Sergei Stepanov, impressionist. I saw his work live.
      2. kalibr
        15 October 2020 07: 27
        +5
        I personally like Gauguin more ...
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 15 October 2020 07: 36
          +4
          By mood.

          "Give me Henri Rousseau
          Your child's wheel ”(c).
      3. businessv
        businessv 17 October 2020 20: 56
        +1
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Van Gogh is very difficult to perceive (and this is despite all my love for impressionism)
        He is a product of post-impressionism and I don't quite agree with you about perception. Look Shoes, Skull with a burning cigarette, Poppies ... as for me, it's quite optimistic and expressive! Although, in taste and color ... except, essno, the Black Square from Malevich, who painted it 25 years later (1913) after a similar painting by Alphonse Allais, which was painted in 1882 and was called "The Battle of Negroes in a Cave in the Deep Night" .... Two identical pictures with completely different destinies! I personally like Alla because, except with humor, such pictures cannot be perceived in any other way! And in any case, he was the first, whatever they say about this!
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 15 October 2020 07: 30
      +3
      Quote: Korsar4
      I wonder if fakes can do the same?

      Maybe they can. If Van Meegeren was tried for the sale of national treasure to the Nazis.
    3. Van 16
      Van 16 15 October 2020 07: 45
      +7
      "The canvas wants to break out of the frame - and run away."
      I had similar feelings from many pictures, right to the frost on the skin. For some reason, I especially remember "The Reaper" by Konstantin Vasiliev, looks straight into your eyes and knows everything, everything about you ..
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 15 October 2020 08: 14
        +4
        "The man with the owl" is something.

        I noticed for myself. I don't often go to museums. But each time a picture (usually one) appears in a new way.
        1. Van 16
          Van 16 15 October 2020 10: 21
          +5
          This often happens. You look at the picture - yes, a masterpiece, yes great, and went on. And then, next time you pass by it and boom! Hooked! And you think like you never noticed before ..
          About "Man with an owl" I agree absolutely. Somehow I went to Kazan on purpose to see it live.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 15 October 2020 11: 07
            +4
            There was an exhibition in Gorki, near Moscow. So I didn't have to go to Kazan.
            1. Van 16
              Van 16 15 October 2020 13: 05
              +4
              Lucky)) but Kazan is also not bad, at the same time I looked at the city.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 15 October 2020 15: 54
                +2
                Kazan is good. No wonder, in fact, the third capital. No matter how upset Nizhny Novgorod is.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 15 October 2020 07: 04
    +1
    Moreover, the marble turned out to be very resistant to weathering, so that traces of aging and the effects of the environment on it with the naked eye is impossible.


    recourse
    I don’t know, I don’t know: anyone who has seen marble monuments and tombstones that are about a hundred years old has seen WHAT happens to marble outdoors - it darkens and the top layer becomes porous and weathered.

    calcium hydrosulfite, formed on the surface, is soluble in water, it is washed off by rain, the emitted carbon dioxide contributes to this.

    Sulfite and calcium sulfate, absorbing moisture, are converted into the corresponding crystalline hydrates. This leads to an increase in their volume and mechanical destruction of the statues.

    Nitrogen dioxide, interacting with moisture, forms nitric and nitrous acids that destroy marble.

    Nitrites and nitrates are readily soluble and washed off by rain (c).
    1. kalibr
      15 October 2020 07: 11
      +4
      Quote: Olgovich
      is impossible.

      And sometimes it is possible. Everything happens in each case. Have you seen the building of the Dresden Gallery? It's all black! And the statues that adorn him are all black. I saw them at arm's length and ... traces of nature are clearly visible on them. Moreover, as it turned out, there is a workshop where statues are sculpted day and night to replace the damaged ones. Therefore, some on the facade are white, and some are black. But the blackened ones are also used - an exhibition is made of them! But in Meissen I saw effigium plates. And those that were on the street were badly worn out, and those under the roof were as good as new, although they are 500 years old!
      1. kalibr
        15 October 2020 07: 24
        +4
        The famous, from which they are made, quickly turns black and deteriorates. But you can't replace it with another stone - history!
        Here is a new sculpture in this photo.

        And here is a sculpture in the Troy castle in Prague. It has not been changed yet. The stone is the same!
        1. Avior
          Avior 15 October 2020 09: 52
          +5
          about the Dresden Gallery.
          This is how the center of Dresden looked after the war



          photo 1955, 1957 and the last - directly Zwinger - immediately after the war.
          it would be necessary to figure out for a start how old the structures and decorations are.
          that was not bombed, taken out.
          1. Oprichnik
            Oprichnik 22 October 2020 01: 22
            -1
            When I first got to Dresden, I thought that the blackness of historical buildings is soot after the fires during its destruction. But they explained what and how.
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 15 October 2020 07: 58
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        And sometimes it is possible. Everything happens in each case. Have you seen the building of the Dresden Gallery? It's all black! And the statues that adorn him are all black. I saw them at arm's length and ... traces of nature are clearly visible on them. Moreover, as it turned out, there is a workshop where statues are sculpted day and night to replace the damaged ones. Therefore, some on the facade are white, and some are black. But the blackened ones are also used - an exhibition is made of them! But in Meissen I saw effigium plates. And those that were on the street were badly worn out, and those under the roof were as good as new, although they are 500 years old!

        So I am about the same thing: aging (destruction) and weathering occur irreversibly and are visible immediately and with the naked eye, you stated the opposite earlier:
        Quote: kalibr
        And marble proved to be very resistant to weathering, so that traces of aging and the effects of the environment on it with the naked eye is impossible.

        And it is not.

        The most famous example is the statue of David by Michelangelo in Florence, which was forced to hide back in 1910
        1. kalibr
          15 October 2020 08: 12
          +3
          Once again: THERE IS ... You understand: THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE ... BUT IT IS POSSIBLE. In the case of the statue, this was IMPOSSIBLE. And in other cases it is POSSIBLE. How else can I explain? Is Russian a second foreign language?
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 15 October 2020 10: 09
            -1
            Quote: kalibr
            Once again: THERE IS ... You understand: THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE ... BUT IT IS POSSIBLE. In the case of the statue, this was IMPOSSIBLE. And in other cases it is POSSIBLE. How else can I explain? Is Russian a second foreign language?

            Alas, you have problems with understanding the Russian language.

            ONCE AGAIN: absolutely all marble products in the open air - apparently and naturally DESTROY-surface darkens, erodes, becomes porous from the effects of many aggressive chemicals. agents of the atmosphere and its state - wind, freezing-freezing, irradiation, etc.,

            This, of course, does not apply to those sculptures that are in enclosed spaces or have been protected by a layer of soil, etc.

            But you spoke specifically about sculpture IN THE AIR:
            Quote: kalibr
            Moreover, marble turned out to be very stable to weatheringso that there are signs of aging and environmental impact on it with the naked eye is impossible.
            , and there you can see everything.

            Or show centuries-old WHITE marble statues under the open sky
            1. kalibr
              15 October 2020 14: 40
              0
              Below I answered you. Details ... At the end of the article there is a link to the source. Everything is much more detailed there. Interesting? There!
            2. Kwas
              Kwas 17 October 2020 08: 31
              0
              Quote: Olgovich
              ONCE AGAIN: absolutely all marble products in the open air - apparently and regularly DESTROY - the surface darkens, erodes, becomes porous from the effects of many aggressive chemicals. agents of the atmosphere and its state - wind, freezing-freezing, irradiation, etc.,

              Everything ages in the world, but the rate of aging depends on many factors. With regard to our topic, these are, first of all, the natural conditions at the storage site - the amount of precipitation and the presence of negative winter temperatures.
  • The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 15 October 2020 07: 17
    +5
    For two years to examine particles under a microscope and compare them with similar ones!
    Hmm ... How meticulous work can be.
    And how, probably, an ancient sculptor would be offended if he found out that in a few centuries someone would doubt the authenticity of his creation and spend so much time and money on proof! laughing
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! And good morning to you!
    1. kalibr
      15 October 2020 07: 25
      +4
      And to you, Nazarius, all the best!
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 15 October 2020 07: 49
      +4
      I admit that the master might be interested.
      Not everyone can talk to eternity
    3. Hantengri
      Hantengri 15 October 2020 09: 54
      +5
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      And how, probably, the ancient sculptor would be offended if he found out that after a few centuries someone would doubt the authenticity of his creation

      And why would he, a sculptor known to all Hellas (what, there, was his name? lol ), take offense at the opinion of some barbarians? What can these barbarians, in general, understand in real art ?!
      1. Kwas
        Kwas 17 October 2020 08: 32
        0
        Perhaps he would even be proud that after as many as 2500 years he was so appreciated! Even barbarians.
    4. garri-lin
      garri-lin 15 October 2020 18: 48
      +1
      Rather, on the contrary, he was proud. A lot of people spend a lot of energy to make sure that this is his statue and not a vulgar remake.
  • Van 16
    Van 16 15 October 2020 07: 50
    +4
    Thank you, I learned a lot! The comments are also great, I read it with pleasure.
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 15 October 2020 08: 14
    +1
    by measuring the wavelength of the X-rays emitted by the samples during irradiation,

    Nothing is emitted by the samples. It is only possible to measure the diffraction on the internal structure of the sample of those rays with which the sample is irradiated.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 15 October 2020 08: 35
      +3
      Quote: Aviator_
      Nothing is emitted by the samples.

      As Indiana Jones' dad said, you can determine the age of a pottery only by breaking it. wink
    2. kalibr
      15 October 2020 08: 38
      +1
      Quote: Aviator_
      with which the sample is irradiated.

      At the end of the article, a link to the source of information. There is all this in detail.
  • kalibr
    15 October 2020 08: 30
    +4
    Quote: ee2100
    but this does not apply to historical artifacts

    V K A Z D O M K O N K R E T N O M S L U CH A E N A D S M O T R E T L!
  • kalibr
    15 October 2020 09: 50
    +4
    Quote: Olgovich
    outdoors - it darkens and the top layer becomes porous and weathered.

    Where is it written that this kouros stood in the open air? Such sculptors were in temples. Then the Romans took him out, placed him in a villa - to admire, then it was destroyed by the Goths or whatever. The figure didn't give up to anyone. She fell, fell asleep ... Then they started digging - they found it. Placed under the roof. Where is the rain, where is the wind. Well, yes, somewhere he blew on her, and unevenly. This is what research has shown. But he did not blow on her ALL THE TIME of her existence, and acid rains did not water her!
    1. Liam
      Liam 15 October 2020 10: 02
      +6
      A person simply does not know that there are different types of marble that "behave" differently under the influence of the external environment
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 15 October 2020 15: 21
        -2
        Quote: Liam
        A person simply does not know that there are different types of marble that "behave" differently under the influence of the external environment

        Ignorant talkers are encouraged to give examples marble (from different types of marble) statues that stood in the open air for several centuries without damaging the surface layer.
        1. Liam
          Liam 15 October 2020 17: 18
          +4
          If you did not spend your life only in the Chisinau entrance, but traveled around the world, you would see, for example, in the same Rome or Venice, thousands of such statues. Starting with the same Trayana column from Carrara marble, the smallest details of the bas-reliefs of which are perfectly visible even after 2000 years. ...
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich 15 October 2020 15: 14
      -2
      Quote: kalibr
      Where it is written, that this kouros stood in the open air?

      Here:
      Quote: kalibr
      Moreover, marble turned out to be very stable to weatheringso that there are signs of aging and environmental impact on it with the naked eye is impossible.

      WHERE goes "weathering"and environmental impact"? In the museum hall?

      You wrote incorrectly, which caused natural bewilderment: marble statues do NOT exist without a damaged visible surface layer.
      1. kalibr
        15 October 2020 15: 53
        +2
        They explained everything to you twice ...
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 16 October 2020 07: 58
          -1
          Quote: kalibr
          They explained everything to you twice ..

          Everything was explained to you THREE times.

          But things are still there. Alas....
  • Undecim
    Undecim 15 October 2020 10: 33
    +7
    The Kuros in question was hewn out of dolomite, a very resistant type of marble.
    I will bring some clarity. Dolomite is not marble. Dolomite is one of two minerals (the second is calcite), of which, as a result of metamorphism (a series of transformations in the composition and structure of the mineral in the deep zones of the earth's crust under the influence of high temperatures, pressures, as well as the effects of hot gases and aqueous solutions) rock marble. Accordingly, such marble is called dolomite.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 15 October 2020 18: 46
      +2
      V. N, thank you for the addition. You are a living encyclopedia.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 15 October 2020 11: 46
    +5
    Our colleague Alexander asked me to insert the text and photos sent by him. I'm doing it.
    -------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -------------------
    The photo shows a chapel in the village of Viru-Nigula, Estonia XIII century, ca 1270. Although the photo shows traces of restoration, this is how the structure of the early Middle Ages should look like. This chapel was never destroyed by explosions. Only time and climate.
    The fortress of Kaporye looks similar, there is a photo on the Internet.
    Bricks in northern Europe were used much later.
    So, the brick in the photo is more like a "Chelini brick".
  • Operator
    Operator 15 October 2020 11: 50
    +2
    Quote: ee2100
    brick service life 300-400 years

    Lithuania, Poland and the Kaliningrad region are full of 800-year-old crusader brick buildings. In areas without frost, such as Mesopotamia, bricks are found several thousand years old.

    The durability of a brick is determined by its density (so that there is no internal cellular structure), the firing technology and the climate of the area where it was used (so that there is no temperature transition through 0 degrees Celsius with freezing / thawing of moisture inside the brick).
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 15 October 2020 16: 38
      0
      Give examples of ceramic brick locks about 800 years old
      1. kalibr
        15 October 2020 17: 56
        0
        Alexander! That's how you, right, freely bend a person to suit your interests. "Bring" - and that's it. Not even the word "please". But there is the Internet, it is much easier to contact if you want to know something more. I suggested that you read the material about brick hunters. It is on the Web, and there are a lot of interesting photos on this topic.
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 15 October 2020 18: 51
          0
          I don't bend anyone am there are no original locks made of ceramic bricks before the 16th century. nor in Poland, Lithuania, etc. these are either late buildings on the site of old castles or a remake. They don't write the word "please" to me, and I'll be mutually polite. I didn’t look about brick hunters. I will see
      2. Operator
        Operator 15 October 2020 18: 15
        +1
        Marienburg in Poland.
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 15 October 2020 19: 05
          -1
          I had not been there, the plans were for this summer in Gdansk, a school friend lives, and this is nearby. I saw a photo of the castle, but I always considered it a remake. You can see it yourself.
          I am very skeptical that it was originally made of ceramic bricks.
          Nowhere, but in Poland there!
          1. kalibr
            15 October 2020 19: 28
            +2
            The castle was badly damaged during the war. But the base and cellars survived. So there is where to find authentic materials.
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 15 October 2020 19: 30
              0
              I saw the post-war photos. Everything outside is a remake.
              1. kalibr
                15 October 2020 19: 56
                +1
                Of course, everything outside had to be restored. As well as the walls and towers of the Nowy Miast in Warsaw, but everything was restored so precisely that the New Miast even received a UNESCO certificate.
                1. ee2100
                  ee2100 15 October 2020 22: 09
                  0
                  I didn't even want to write about it, about Warsaw.
          2. Operator
            Operator 15 October 2020 20: 51
            +1
            As I said, not only in Poland, but throughout the territory of the former East Prussia, brickwork of the 13th century has been preserved (perhaps there is an older one). In the chronicles of the Order of the Crusaders in Magdeburg, the beginning of the manufacture of bricks, the laying of the foundation, the erection of walls, etc., are taken into account over the years. The foundation has never been updated since its construction, and neither has the main array of walls.

            The secret of the durability of medieval masonry is simple - a brick / plinth was made of high-quality clay, carefully rammed in molds and left to dry in natural conditions for as long as two weeks, then fired on charcoal without sulfur (as opposed to stone).

            Now the production of bricks is put on stream, the quality of products is lower.

            By the way, the medieval lime mortar of brickwork is also more durable than the modern cement mortar, since a natural polymer - egg yolk was added to the lime mortar, and now they even save on synthetic polymers for cement mortar.
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 15 October 2020 22: 21
              0
              At the expense of the solution I agree! God bless her Poland, but the Roman ruins are 2-2,5 thousand years old. What is it like?
              I read about 10 years ago an article by an American author, he decided to make a reconstruction of what would happen on Earth if all people disappeared overnight. There were many interesting things, but the main thing is that after 500 years, if someone arrives on Earth, there will be no traces of human activity. To find them would have to dig deep.
              And we are talking about a 5 times longer period.
              1. Operator
                Operator 15 October 2020 22: 44
                +2
                What I know about Roman brickwork is that the Romans used a concrete solution based on cement from a local volcanic material, pozzolana, instead of mortar on eggs.

                The American, in full accordance with their national tradition, floods - but what about the Egyptian pyramids and temples, for example?
                1. ee2100
                  ee2100 16 October 2020 05: 29
                  0
                  For what I bought for that and sell.
                  At my father's village in the village, a church made of bricks was built with the use of lime mortar on egg white in the 20s, they burst out three times and could not destroy
                  1. Kwas
                    Kwas 17 October 2020 09: 58
                    0
                    Yes, the technology was great. We (in Tashkent) also built both private (pharmacy) and government buildings (cadet corps, etc.) using this technology at the turn of the XIX-XX centuries. They still stand, despite all the earthquakes, and when they had to make holes during repairs ... - they fell asleep.
            2. kalibr
              16 October 2020 07: 34
              0
              During the construction of the bridge across the Vltava, by order of King Wenceslas (I don't remember the number), it was ordered to bring a cart of eggs from each village - to mix the cement. But the inhabitants of one village did not understand and sent a cart of boiled food! I went to feed the builders, and the king laughed a lot!
  • iouris
    iouris 15 October 2020 14: 28
    +1
    The topic is relevant. In my evaluative opinion, all or almost all originals (especially Western art) are sold. At different stages of the "development" of the post-Roman state. And who can dispute the "expert opinion" in the attribution of artifacts? Right.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 15 October 2020 18: 39
    +3
    Quote: Avior
    I am sure that the Italian bricks of the fortress, which served as a model, are also not according to guests.
    It turns out that the guest needs to be changed so that they serve for more than 300 years. smile

    Or maybe, say, convolutions, to restore the ancient recipe? When the GOST was approved for a brick, the scientists achieved that their development was the most, most durable and CHEAPEST.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 15 October 2020 19: 18
    +3
    Quote: Liam
    If you did not spend your life only in the Chisinau entrance, but traveled around the world, you would see, for example, in the same Rome or Venice, thousands of such statues. Starting with the same Trayana column from Carrara marble, the smallest details of the bas-reliefs of which are perfectly visible even after 2000 years. ...

    I have not been to Chisinau and I haven’t been in the doorways, but I don’t have the funds to visit the "Eternal City", and therefore I make virtual trips
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 15 October 2020 20: 12
      +7
      I have not been to Chisinau and I haven’t been in the doorways.
      You are very lucky. If you had run into Olgovich ... "Gop-stop - we came from around the corner"