Military Review

Zircon: what is happening with the program and what they think of it in the West

148

Photo: vl.ru


Everything secret ...


Until recently, one could only hear about the mysterious Zircon hypersonic rocket in the media. However, it gradually became clear that it was most likely a real product. Recall that back in 2019, experts drew attention to the transport and launch containers installed on board the frigate "Admiral Gorshkov", which were allegedly related to the "Zircon".


And recently, the Ministry of Defense announced that on October XNUMX this year, from the waters of the White Sea, "Admiral Fleet Soviet Union Gorshkov "fired for the first time with a product of this type. The rocket was shown on video, albeit without any discernible details.

She hit the target, which was at a distance of 450 kilometers. At the same time, the flight speed was more than Mach 8. These data generally confirm the previously announced unofficial characteristics of the product, which is designed to change the balance of power at sea. Recall that some sources indicated the missile's flight range of 400-600 (however, according to some sources, it can reach 1000) kilometers. And in 2017, a source in the defense industry said that, as part of early tests, the rocket was able to reach eight speeds of sound.

Ninth october появились new data about the planned tests of the product. Two sources in the military-industrial complex told TASS about it. “As part of the ongoing flight tests of the Zircon hypersonic missile from the frigate Admiral Gorshkov, three more fires will be fired by the end of this year. The nearest launch will take place in late October - early November, ”the source told the agency. "All three launches will be carried out with real destruction of sea or ground targets, in particular, imitating aircraft carriers or strategic objects of a conditional enemy," another source noted.


Many countries have ships that can be conditionally (or not conditionally) called aircraft carriers, including universal amphibious assault ships-helicopter carriers. However, it must be assumed that in this case we are not talking about them. Most likely, they mean the American "supercarriers": "Nimitz" or the newest "Gerald R. Ford".

A game-changing weapon


However, a conceptual difficulty arises here. If against a conditionally equal adversary such a missile can become a guarantee of victory, then in the case of aircraft carrier strike groups it cannot be regarded as something that gives a decisive advantage.

After the Zircon is adopted, the US Navy will continue to have a strong military-technical superiority - at least in terms of the range of destruction of naval targets. A few years ago, the US Air Force armed itself aviation long-range anti-ship missile AGM-158C LRASM, and in 2019 the missile reached initial combat readiness as part of the arsenal of the USS Super Hornet carrier-based fighter.


Still from the video of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

The missile itself, although based on the JASSM-ER (range of about 930 kilometers), is likely to have more modest performance than its basic version. Due to the new equipment, the range of the new product is estimated at about 560 kilometers. Taking into account the combat radius of the F / A-18E / F Super Hornet aircraft of more than 700 kilometers, this is, if not an ultimatum, then very serious weapon.

Deck aviation is not only the long arm of the naval forces, but also flexibility that nothing else can provide. A fighter-bomber can carry a wide range of aircraft weapons and appear where it was least expected. The latter will be fully realized by the Americans after the full-fledged introduction of the deck-based F-35C with all the intended functions. Initially, we can talk about the placement of LRASM on external suspensions with the loss of stealth. However, in the future, it is theoretically possible to place missiles on internal holders.


It is possible to discuss for a long time about the need for Russia to have something even remotely similar to American aircraft carriers. However, we must admit that now there is simply no opportunity to build such ships. Neither financial nor, in all likelihood, purely technical. The USSR had a similar experience with its unfinished "Ulyanovsk" - a conditional analogue of "Nimitz", but that was then. Now the situation is different.

In this regard, Russia with its "Zircon" went the only way available to it, having decided, in all likelihood, to arm all new relatively large surface ships and modern multipurpose submarines with it. It is known that in 2021 test firing of the Zircon is to be carried out from the side of the Project 885 Severodvinsk multipurpose nuclear submarine. The tests will include the surface and submerged position of the submarine.

In March, a source in the OPK said that this submarine was preferred to the newer Kazan submarine of project 885M, since its tests were delayed. The aircraft carrier killer, the Project 949A Antey nuclear submarine, and the promising Husky, which could become the world's first fifth-generation submarine, are also being considered as a possible carrier.

With regard to surface ships, then theoretically "Zircon" can be launched from anyone with a universal shipborne firing system 3S14 (UKSK). And this (in addition to frigates of project 22350, to which the aforementioned "Admiral Gorshkov" belongs) frigates of project 11356, corvettes of project 20385, missile ships of project 11661, small missile ships of project 21631 and small missile ships of project 22800.


Photo: PJSC "Shipyard" Severnaya Verf "

Again, you need to understand that the widespread use of "Zircon" in the Russian Navy (assuming that it will be) will not make the Russian fleet the strongest in the world and will not put it on a par with fleets that have full-fledged aircraft carriers. However, we repeat, this is the only reasonable decision in the current circumstances.

The reaction of the West


Western experts are closely monitoring the tests of Zircon. Some of them, in particular the infamous Popular Mechanics, even use frightening headlines. At the same time, American experts do not consider Zircon invulnerable. According to them, the US Navy is investigating the possibility of using the shipborne SM-6 missile to intercept a hypersonic missile.

According to the magazine, the SM-6 has a range of 150 miles (240 kilometers) and a maximum speed of Mach 3,5, which makes it capable of hitting hypersonic weapons at a relatively large distance from protected ships. Attempts to intercept the Zircon are possible with a medium-range RIM-162 ESSM (Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile) anti-aircraft missile, although this may also require modification to counter hypersonic weapons. Now this missile has a range of about 50 kilometers and a speed of more than 4 M.


The publication notes that the naval forces can detect "Zircons" at long distances using the new fire control and air attack countermeasures (NIFC-CA). It allows the E-2D Hawkeye early warning aircraft, or even an F-35 fighter jet, to detect such targets long before the ships' radar detects a threat. At least in theory.

On the whole, the West is not inclined to either overestimate or underestimate Zircon and consider it, obviously, a more breakthrough Russian development than other novelties of the military-industrial complex.
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  1. OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 12 October 2020 18: 10 New
    -73
    On the whole, the West is not inclined to either overestimate or underestimate Zircon and consider it, obviously, a more breakthrough Russian development than other novelties of the military-industrial complex.

    Absolutely right. At least some attention is paid to her. Only ecologists pay attention to the Armata, Poseidons, Petrel and other Putin wunderwaflies. There is a real threat from Zircon, especially if it is sold to China.
    1. Kalmar
      Kalmar 12 October 2020 18: 16 New
      18
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      especially if you sell it to China

      This is not necessary. There are many more enjoyable ways to shoot yourself in the foot.
      1. OgnennyiKotik
        OgnennyiKotik 12 October 2020 18: 20 New
        -27
        Quote: Kalmar
        This is not necessary. There are many more enjoyable ways to shoot yourself in the foot.

        Agree to 100%
      2. Nikolai Korovin
        Nikolai Korovin 12 October 2020 21: 50 New
        -4
        Duc how is it we are without brotherhood forever with the great and mighty China-ta ?! Still look for another such brother. Lo and behold - there is nothing else to do but to wash your boots in the Indian Ocean. However, the boots seem to have already been canceled. It's a pity. As you remember kirzachi, and the warm dressing spirit - and the soul is warmer.
        1. Alex777
          Alex777 13 October 2020 15: 14 New
          -3
          In schools in China, his lands from the Urals and east to Kamchatka inclusive.
          Both Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, and many other things, they also consider their lands.
          No one has such claims to us.
          1. Alex777
            Alex777 13 October 2020 15: 19 New
            +2
            By the way, it seems to me alone that the author is somewhat confused in American missiles?
            Is the ship's LRASM (930 km range) suspended on airplanes?
            For this they have a JASSM-ER for 980 km. Purely aviation. hi
          2. Nikolai Korovin
            Nikolai Korovin 13 October 2020 16: 44 New
            -2
            Thanks to dear Nikita Sergeich. Comrade Stalin, of course, supported the Chinese Communists and Chairman Mao personally, but did not overly ridicule them. And our Nikita Sergeich has gone out of his way with the brotherhood forever on our heads. If it were not for his wise policy, they would have been sitting behind a wall and not particularly blather. Laid the foundations. But we wrote about the cultural revolution in an exclusively negative way. And it was Chairman Mao, against the background of the progress of industrialization, scattered the fifth column and formed total militarization from childhood and the mentality of territorial claims, although it would seem - from where? Even Xinjiang has never been steadily owned by China. Possession of Primorye is nonsense. Well, Manchu merchants roamed there, plundered the local population. So the Manchus are not even Chinese, in spite of G.-H. Andersen ("In China, all residents are Chinese, and even the emperor himself is also Chinese."). Fairy tales. Manchu he. Little Manchuria conquered Great and Mighty China, and not the other way around, and imprisoned its emperor. But only in vain are they puffed up. Gunpowder, of course, they seem to have invented, if they are not lying, and since then - nothing. Everything is just borrowed. And borrowed money can fail.
            1. Dmitry Wolf
              Dmitry Wolf 19 October 2020 23: 55 New
              0
              Meow after Stalin's death appropriated No. 1 to himself, and Khrushch - to himself. And they scattered .. fought to death (see Damansky), declaring each other (enemy of the enemy) traitors to the cause of communism. It was after 1953 that the discord with China began and its turn towards the United States - so you are wrong
              1. Nikolai Korovin
                Nikolai Korovin 20 October 2020 19: 23 New
                0
                The split between the USSR and the PRC began in the late 1950s. Damansky is already 1968. Brezhnev was long ago and peacekeeping was already in full swing. Chile just missed. I will cite one, but eloquent fact. In the 50s, China received about 250 Il-28s from the USSR, it was the split that prevented the establishment of its licensed production, and the Chinese began to try to rivet it without a license in 1963. By 1966, it was riveted under the name "Harbin-1". The airplane is small, but very striking. It was produced here in 1949-1955. Of course, under Stalin, when it was a novelty, no one would have given it to the Chinese. It was our dear Nikita Sergeich who did his best. Well, and a lot more ... And when the Chinese felt that they could turn their backs on the Kremlin, a split began. Moreover, the Chinese did not officially turn to the United States. On the maneuvers of the American fleet between the mainland and Taiwan, they issued 300 ... (all lost count) a Chinese warning. Both the USSR and the USA were called paper tigers. And, of course, the betrayal of the Lenin-Stalin case by the Soviet revisionists. Khrushchev was removed - forgotten - in 1963 or 1964. Under him, this has not yet fully developed. This is how the Il-28 went into production - they grew bolder. This is where the "cultural revolution" arrived. Chairman Xi, by the way, is "re-educated." The foundations for the industrialization of China were laid precisely under Khrushchev in the 50s.
          3. Omskgasmyas
            Omskgasmyas 14 October 2020 08: 11 New
            +3
            Do not whistle, there will be no money. We have heard this horror story since the time of the unforgettable Kukuruznik, and he wrote a lot of things, even communism promised by 1980.
        2. Nikolai Korovin
          Nikolai Korovin 13 October 2020 18: 47 New
          0
          I understood that some people don't like kirzachi. And for me - so very good shoes. Developing. As you run five kilometers on the sand in them in 1914 breeches and a blue T-shirt, you will immediately know Brahma. Without leaving the checkout. And it is not at all necessary for this to go to India and adhere to any ashram. And then I got caught here by chance e-mailing one girl, to whom I was not indifferent 40 years ago - let me, I think, I'll write! What is she doing, I wonder? And she told me - how good it is that you showed up, I think about you every hour, come here to our ashram to improve spiritually.

          What are you saying, dear, have you completely lost your mind? I'd rather run around in the sand in kirzachs, because there are no tarpaulins, no sand - well, nothing is available. Well, at least I’ll ride a fox-pet, and that’s bread.
          1. Nikolai Korovin
            Nikolai Korovin 14 October 2020 12: 58 New
            +1
            If I’m not going in, what’s a minus? Well, it's still true! Just real life events. It seems to me that the administration should be asked to accompany the minus with at least a brief commentary. Plus is another matter. I liked it - well, I liked it, well. And when minus is not clear for what - somehow it is not clear, in general.
    2. Thunderbringer
      Thunderbringer 12 October 2020 18: 19 New
      15
      Checked in?
      1. Operator
        Operator 12 October 2020 19: 37 New
        -1
        Got well-deserved minus laughing
    3. antivirus
      antivirus 12 October 2020 19: 19 New
      -12
      invisible and ugly .............

      to put containers on road trailers, like the railway Barguzin - to name it: the "Scribe" complex
      not visible and not threatening ...
    4. Voyager
      Voyager 12 October 2020 19: 42 New
      15
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      Only ecologists pay attention to the Armata, Poseidons, Petrel and other Putin wunderwaflies.

      In case of your short memory, let me remind you that the Congress has already voiced concerns and submitted documents about the impossibility of repelling new Russian weapons like the Avangard, and against this background the United States is trying to speed up the process of developing its analogues.

      https://fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/R45861.pdf
      https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31215/u-s-inspectors-have-examined-russias-imminently-operational-hypersonic-missile
      https://www.voanews.com/usa/us-boost-weapons-research-response-russia

      Have a good reading.
      1. OgnennyiKotik
        OgnennyiKotik 12 October 2020 19: 52 New
        -20
        I know this, I regularly read the same Thedrive. Hypersonic weapons are a real concern in the United States, unlike the rest of the prodigy. Their main concern is that these technologies will end up in China.
        1. Operator
          Operator 12 October 2020 20: 20 New
          -8
          Americans have to worry about something completely different - how to get to Heaven when kneading with the use of "Zircons" bully
        2. Same lech
          Same lech 13 October 2020 13: 31 New
          +2
          Here many called, as you put it, Putin's cartoons, a wunderwolf ... it looks like someone has a break in the template.
      2. Garris199
        Garris199 12 October 2020 20: 59 New
        +4
        Russia and China should begin arms control negotiations without delay. This opinion was expressed by Robert Wood, US Permanent Representative at the Disarmament Conference, at a meeting of the first committee of the UN General Assembly (GA).
        This statement was made the very next day, after the tests of Zircon.
    5. businessv
      businessv 12 October 2020 20: 09 New
      12
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      There is a real threat from Zircon, especially if it is sold to China.
      I'm curious, having written a post in 4 sentences, did you understand what you wanted to say? smile
      1. OgnennyiKotik
        OgnennyiKotik 12 October 2020 20: 23 New
        -17
        Absolutely. Hypersonic weapons pose a real threat to the United States, against which there is no ready-made solution. A great danger is the receipt of this weapon by China, with which military clashes are possible in the Asia-Pacific region. Therefore, they start real moves in countering this threat. The rest of the samples of new technology pose little or no danger.
        1. businessv
          businessv 12 October 2020 21: 45 New
          +1
          Quote: OgnennyiKotik
          A great danger is the receipt of this weapon by China, with which military clashes are possible in the Asia-Pacific region.
          A collision of countries possessing nuclear weapons is impossible, it is an axiom, so you are wrong. And no one will sell these weapons to anyone until they arm our army.
          1. OgnennyiKotik
            OgnennyiKotik 12 October 2020 21: 57 New
            -7
            Quote: businessv
            possessing nuclear weapons is impossible, it is an axiom

            A war is impossible between Russia and the United States; a war between the United States and China is quite real.
            Quote: businessv
            And no one will sell this weapon to anyone until they arm our army.

            Unfortunately, the history of the Russian Federation shows the opposite, more modern and high-quality weapons are exported, much earlier than their own. There are a lot of examples.
            1. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 12 October 2020 23: 56 New
              +3
              Quote: OgnennyiKotik
              more modern and high-quality weapons are exported, much earlier than their own. There are a lot of examples.

              Previously, yes. Now there is no.
              Su-35 and S-400 en masse went to the troops, and after that already for export ...
              1. OgnennyiKotik
                OgnennyiKotik 13 October 2020 00: 04 New
                -4
                What is more of our desire or external factors is a very controversial issue.
                1. Cyril G ...
                  Cyril G ... 13 October 2020 00: 17 New
                  +3
                  The trend has visibly changed. Further it will be seen ...
              2. Storog dvornik
                Storog dvornik 17 October 2020 20: 52 New
                0
                Under capitalism, everything that is bought is sold ...
                Arms export is an important part of the economy of any bourgeois government.
                The one who asks is sold to, despite the policy, money does not smell.
                A fresh example is Armenia and Azerbaijan, another example is India and China.
                The sale of weapons provokes wars, wars destroy the economy and utilize extra mouths, economic recovery after the war increases the capital of the bourgeois - the circle is closed ...
          2. Nemchinov Vl
            Nemchinov Vl 15 October 2020 17: 08 New
            0
            Quote: businessv
            A collision of countries possessing nuclear weapons is impossible, it is an axiom, so you are wrong. And no one will sell these weapons to anyone until they arm our army.
            I want to believe in everything you said above, but .... Why are they selling the SU-35 ?! Our army is saturated with it enough ?!
    6. kutuz
      kutuz 12 October 2020 22: 32 New
      -11
      In! how you "Hurray patriots" spat, although I completely agree with you.
      1. OgnennyiKotik
        OgnennyiKotik 12 October 2020 22: 56 New
        -7
        Thanks. Chinese social rating in miniature laughing The main thing is to write socially approved things and it does not matter whether it is right or not. laughing
        1. A009
          A009 13 October 2020 11: 57 New
          +3
          If you wrote an absolute nonsense, I would even say a complete game, and for this, quite reasonably, in my opinion, they slapped minuses, then this is all "hurray patriots" and do not understand anything? Is this your position? And the fact that you may be wrong, you do not consider in any way?
          1. OgnennyiKotik
            OgnennyiKotik 13 October 2020 11: 59 New
            -3
            Quote: A009
            you do not consider in any way?

            I am considering, admitting and writing about it.
            Only if there are arguments, if there is nothing besides shrieking, then excuse me.
            1. A009
              A009 13 October 2020 12: 10 New
              0
              Arguments? if you please
              (just for completeness, list the ARGUMENTS in your messages, not your conclusions and passages about Putin's wunderwalks. There are no arguments, or am I wrong?)
              1- they paid even more attention to the petrel (who exactly paid the accent, this is different, but the fact remains. There was a lot more information)
              2- about Poseidon, also not much inferior. And not even testing this device (for now) but the exposure at the meeting, if you remember.
              3- With regard to efficiency, your opinion (again without a single argument !!) is just an opinion. As a deterrent, for example, the petrel, in my opinion, is much more real and makes us reckon with than zircon (in particular, because of the narrowness and specificity of its use and possible damage)
              Are these arguments? You can argue ARGUMENTED or just tell me emotions?
              and the last - we are not specialists in psychology and we will not be able to understand what scared the military "partners" more (I am for sure), but the number of publications can be viewed over a period of time.
              1. OgnennyiKotik
                OgnennyiKotik 13 October 2020 12: 27 New
                -5
                1. Petrel is a cruise missile, it can be shot down by an aircraft of World War 2, airspace control systems are extremely developed, there are absolutely no problems to detect and destroy it. There is no challenge to the current air defense and missile defense systems.
                2. Poseidon - bases and carriers are known, their number is limited, the current ASW assets are sufficient to control all our submarines, and with a double reserve. There is no challenge to the current PLO systems.
                3. Zircon (hypersonic weapons in general) - current detection means have limited detection, current missiles are of limited or no effectiveness. The current air defense and missile defense systems are not effective. It is necessary to develop new and modernize the current detection and destruction systems.
                4. I am not interested in psychology in this case, it is important where the money is directed. Trump applied martial law to develop hypersonic weapons and countermeasures. None of the systems has caused such a reaction, the usual weapons update is in progress.
                If interested, the current accelerated hypersonic projects of the United States.
                1. The eye of the crying
                  The eye of the crying 13 October 2020 13: 53 New
                  0
                  Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                  Trump applied martial law to develop hypersonic weapons


                  What's this about? There is a Defense Production Act, but it didn't apply to anything hypersonic. Or is there some kind of Defense Development Act? wassat
                  1. OgnennyiKotik
                    OgnennyiKotik 13 October 2020 13: 58 New
                    -1
                    WASHINGTON, June 24 - RIA Novosti. President Donald Trump has enacted martial law to urgently implement hypersonic weapons and space technology programs, the White House said.
                    The Defense Manufacturing Act, passed in 1950 after the outbreak of the Korean Conflict, applies to war or emergencies.

                    https://ria.ru/20200624/1573434738.html
                  2. OgnennyiKotik
                    OgnennyiKotik 13 October 2020 14: 12 New
                    -1
                    To be more precise:

                    By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including section 303 of the Defense Production Act of 1950, as amended (the “Act”) (50 USC 4533), I hereby determine, pursuant to section 303 (a) (5) of the Act, that the industrial base production capability for ultra-high and high temperature composites for hypersonic, strategic missile, and space launch systems is essential to the national defense.

                    Without Presidential action under section 303 of the Act, United States industry cannot reasonably be expected to provide the production capability for ultra-high and high temperature composites for hypersonic, strategic missile, and space launch systems adequately and in a timely manner. Further, purchases, purchase commitments, or other action pursuant to section 303 of the Act are the most cost-effective, expedient, and practical alternative method for meeting the need for this critical capability


                    https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/presidential-determination-pursuant-section-303-defense-production-act-1950-amended-7/
                    1. The eye of the crying
                      The eye of the crying 13 October 2020 14: 13 New
                      -2
                      This is the Defense Production Act. And yet there is nothing to produce. Not to mention the fact that where is the money? Chatter, as usual with Trump.
                      1. OgnennyiKotik
                        OgnennyiKotik 13 October 2020 14: 18 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        Not to mention the fact that where is the money?

                        Under secret articles passes. Such projects are not openly funded.
                        Development money is not for production, the release of the White House specifically says what.
                      2. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 13 October 2020 21: 33 New
                        0
                        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                        Under secret articles passes. Such projects are not openly funded.


                        What are "similar"? Money for the development of hypersonic weapons was (and is) allocated quite openly.

                        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                        Development money is not for production, the release of the White House specifically says what.


                        According to your link that you gave, nothing like this is written.
                      3. OgnennyiKotik
                        OgnennyiKotik 13 October 2020 22: 00 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        What are "similar"?

                        For example RQ-170 in open sources there is no information about the number of drones, program prices and product prices. Only journalistic fake about 6 million per unit.
                        Quote: Eye of the Crying
                        According to your link that you gave, nothing like this is written.

                        Translation of the official memo https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/presidential-determination-pursuant-section-303-defense-production-act-1950-amended-7/
                        Topic: determining the president in accordance with
                        Section 303 of the Defense Production Law
                        1950, as amended

                        Subject to the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including section 303 of the Defense Manufacturing Act 1950, as amended (the “Act”) (50 USC 4533), I hereby define in Section 303 (a) (5) The law that the industrial base for the production of ultra-high and high-temperature composites for hypersonic, strategic missile and space launch systems is essential for national defense.

                        Without presidential measures under Section 303 of the Act, United States industry cannot reasonably be expected to be able to to provide adequate and timely production of ultra-high and high-temperature composites for hypersonic, strategic missile and space launch systems. In addition, procurement, procurement commitments or other actions under section 303 of the law are the most cost-effective, feasible and practical alternative method to meet the need for this critical capability.

                        You are authorized and required to publish this memorandum in the Federal Register.

                        Donald J. Trump

                        Section 303 (a) (5)
                        5) presidential decrees
                        Except as provided for in clause (7), the Chairman may not perform a contract under this subsection unless the Chairman, on a non-delegated basis, determines, through appropriate explanatory material and in writing, that—
                        13

                        (A) an industrial resource, material, or critical technology is essential to national defense;
                        (B) without action by the President under this section, US industry cannot reasonably expect to provide the ability to produce the required manufacturing resources, materials, or critical technology in a timely manner; and
                        (C) purchases, purchase commitments or other actions in accordance with this section are presented as the most cost-effective, feasible and practical alternative way to meet the needs.
                      4. OgnennyiKotik
                        OgnennyiKotik 13 October 2020 22: 02 New
                        -2
                        Those. Trump ordered adequate and timely provision for the production of ultra-high and high-temperature composites for hypersonic, strategic missile and space launch systems. Make purchases (financing) in an alternative way. Like, I'm not that strong in their financial system.
                      5. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 13 October 2020 22: 06 New
                        0
                        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                        For example RQ-170 in open sources there is no information about the number of drones, program prices and product prices.


                        So what? Now we are not talking about purchasing products, but about the program for their development.

                        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                        purchases, purchase commitments or other actions in accordance with this section are presented as the most cost-effective, feasible and practical alternative way to meet the needs.


                        First, it's not about classified articles. Secondly, only Congress controls the money ("to buy"). And only within the budget. So this ruling is just chatter.
  • NEXUS
    NEXUS 12 October 2020 23: 46 New
    +4
    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
    On the Armata, Poseidons, Petrels and other Putin's wunderwales

    A member of the sect - "fucked up all the polymers", "all the money went to yachts for the oligarchs" and "Putin is to blame for everything"?
    Armata in the troops on trials, Poseidon will already be brought and put into the troops, the Petrel is being tested. What else were voiced for the wunderwales? Nudol? So the state tests are going on. The same is for Sarmat. The vanguard is already on duty.
    A railway line was launched across the Crimean bridge.

    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
    especially if you sell it to China.

    Sell ​​your kidney ... yeah.
  • syndicalist
    syndicalist 13 October 2020 10: 38 New
    +1
    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
    especially if you sell it to China.

    Then the friend and ally of Erdogan
  • MKPU-115
    MKPU-115 13 October 2020 12: 24 New
    -1
    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
    especially if you sell it to China.

    You have already sold the aircraft carrier to the Chinese laughing
    On someone else's loaf, do not open your mouth.
  • PROXOR
    PROXOR 14 October 2020 11: 46 New
    0
    Are you out of your mind?
  • Kalmar
    Kalmar 12 October 2020 18: 18 New
    -1
    theoretically "Zircon" can be launched from anyone with a universal shipborne firing complex 3S14 (UKSK). And this (in addition to frigates of project 22350, to which the aforementioned "Admiral Gorshkov" belongs) frigates of project 11356

    11356 seems like even "Onyx" cannot start, what kind of "Zircons" are already there.
    1. Cympak
      Cympak 12 October 2020 18: 36 New
      +3
      11356 cannot apply "Onyx", saved.
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 13 October 2020 00: 18 New
        +2
        Not for hardware, because of software .... To register Onyx was called some sort of cosmic sum ..
        1. Cympak
          Cympak 21 October 2020 13: 31 New
          0
          I need a separate remote control to control the Onyxes, I don’t know about cables to the PU, but it’s quite possible that you need to pull .... All this disgrace is aptly defined - "military-industrial feudalism" :(
  • rocket757
    rocket757 12 October 2020 18: 27 New
    +3
    The arms race is like a new technological level ... although it is not fundamentally different, the characteristics are already different.
    Again the sword against the shield or vice versa!
    In general, it is better not to check in kind, it is dangerous.
  • paco.soto
    paco.soto 12 October 2020 18: 50 New
    -2

    Illustrative video of the aforementioned AGM-158C LRASM missile, but without intelligible frames of target destruction.
  • Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 12 October 2020 19: 21 New
    10
    The naval forces can detect Zircons over long distances using the new fire control and air attack countermeasures (NIFC-CA) system.

    "Zircon" flew 450 km for 4,5 minutes, if NIFC-CA really knows how to detect targets so far away, then theoretically the ship can have time to fire a couple of times towards. Another question is whether the sensitivity of the anti-missile missile seeker will be enough to capture the target, because you will have to shoot from afar. And after grabbing the rudders still have to work out the trajectory. And if Zircon really knows how to maneuver, then the task turns out to be very difficult.
    If I were sailors, I would not rely heavily on an anti-missile system. It is safer to "jump aside, pretend to be a rag and not shine" (c)
    1. Alexey Sommer
      Alexey Sommer 12 October 2020 20: 20 New
      12
      Greetings!
      Ilya, as always in his articles, caught up with horror, but there are several fundamental nuances that he did not take into account. Let me add to your words.
      1. Zircon on hypersound flies in a cloud of plasma, which makes it invisible to radars.
      2. An anti-missile missile for a confident interception should have a speed of 1,5 times the intercepted target. The United States simply does not have anything like that.
      3. American AGM-158C LRASM, it will fly for 500 km for more than 30 minutes, and ours will reach them in 5 minutes at the same distance.
      These are the pies with kittens. hi
      1. Local from the Volga
        Local from the Volga 12 October 2020 20: 37 New
        +1
        the plasma cloud is visible as a beacon at night from 100 meters!
        1. Alexey Sommer
          Alexey Sommer 12 October 2020 20: 39 New
          +4
          Good evening!
          But there are different opinions on this matter. You can find it on the net.
          I am not a physicist, but do some research on the internet.
          What about the rest of the items?
        2. Xnumx vis
          Xnumx vis 12 October 2020 20: 47 New
          +7
          The hypersonic anti-ship missile system descends towards the target, surrounded by a cloud of plasma forming on the body. This makes it difficult to shoot at it, because the plasma partly absorbs the radar radiation. A surface target is always a small target. And most often it is moving. The fact that the Zircon hit it suggests that the fundamental problems with targeting the missile have been resolved. Domestic engineers, in a sense, "outwitted" the laws of nature, ensuring accurate guidance of the missile to the target, despite the plasma surrounding the missile. And this is a victory.
          1. Local from the Volga
            Local from the Volga 12 October 2020 21: 15 New
            +3
            about missile guidance, I did not say anything! but, the fact that it is impossible to aim at it precisely because of the plasma is fierce delirium!
            1. Xnumx vis
              Xnumx vis 13 October 2020 07: 26 New
              -1
              Quote: Local from the Volga
              about missile guidance, I did not say anything! but, the fact that it is impossible to aim at it precisely because of the plasma is fierce delirium!

              It makes it difficult shooting at her because in part plasma absorbs radar radiation.
          2. Voyager
            Voyager 12 October 2020 21: 48 New
            +1
            Quote: 30 vis
            The fact that the Zircon hit it suggests that the fundamental problems with targeting the missile have been resolved. Domestic engineers, in a sense, "outwitted" the laws of nature, ensuring accurate guidance of the missile to the target, despite the plasma surrounding the missile. And this is a victory.

            VVP personally spoke about this in the context of maintaining the controllability of the Vanguard. Indeed, this is possible and is the main know-how of new developments.
          3. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 12 October 2020 22: 45 New
            -4
            Quote: 30 vis
            The fact that the Zircon hit it suggests that the fundamental problems with targeting this missile have been resolved.


            For example, by entering the exact coordinates and speed of the target into the missile control system smile
          4. Jacket in stock
            Jacket in stock 13 October 2020 05: 54 New
            +3
            Quote: 30 vis
            The hypersonic anti-ship missile system descends towards the target, surrounded by a cloud of plasma forming on the body. This makes it difficult to shoot at her.

            On the contrary.
            The heated body and the plasma around it glow like a Christmas tree in both the IR and visible range.
            Look at electric welding for example.
            Accordingly, detection almost from the moment of launch, and accurate guidance in this regard is absolutely problem-free.
            The only problem is the speed of the anti-missile control loop.
            At such speeds, it is easy to even hit a rocket flying along a previously known simple trajectory, and that is a difficult task. And if the rocket also knows how to maneuver, then it will be a revolution.
            1. Dmitry Wolf
              Dmitry Wolf 20 October 2020 00: 01 New
              0
              plasma can be different - in a thermonuclear reactor and a mercury gas lamp (you can touch its body with your hand - it is warm not hot)
        3. Alexey Sommer
          Alexey Sommer 12 October 2020 20: 57 New
          +4
          Quote: Local from the Volga
          the plasma cloud is visible as a beacon at night from 100 meters!

          a plasma cloud does not make a rocket invisible, but with undefined motion parameters, according to which it is difficult to track a target or launch a long-range rocket to the desired point.

          On the radar, such a plasma cloud looks like a supernova and there is no way to aim

          That something like this.
          1. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 12 October 2020 22: 35 New
            0
            The last point is definitely nonsense. The second ... is doubtful.
      2. PROXOR
        PROXOR 14 October 2020 11: 56 New
        0
        And given the possibility of an underwater launch, the question remains where the AGM-158C LRASM will fly for 30 minutes. The submarine fleet is becoming mega-relevant.
    2. kutuz
      kutuz 12 October 2020 22: 34 New
      +1
      "And if Zircon really is" - and if, and maybe, what if! You yourself answered your own question.
  • Xnumx vis
    Xnumx vis 12 October 2020 19: 31 New
    14
    How long can we wait - "what did the West say?" Since the time of Peter the Great, we have been waiting with open mouth for the West's reaction ... - "What did they say? Do they approve, laugh, fear?" .. The main thing for us is that this Rocket changes the Naval alignment. The Russian fleet is becoming stronger, more formidable, more deadly. All . Basta! And what they said there ... Before the flashlight described by the dog ... They won't tell the truth, they didn't say, they won't say ... am
  • set of sets
    set of sets 12 October 2020 19: 32 New
    +3
    Firstly, the real characteristics are classified. You have to be a complete d-m in order to reveal all the cards. And secondly, everything is learned in battle.
    1. lucul
      lucul 12 October 2020 20: 35 New
      +3
      Firstly, the real characteristics are classified.

      There were hints that the first version of the Zircon had a range of 1000 km. The next version is already 1500 km.
      And in the first and second cases, everything depends on target designation at such a distance.
      I think that Zircons would not have been used until military satellites were put into orbit for target designation.
  • Operator
    Operator 12 October 2020 19: 33 New
    12
    "in the case of aircraft carrier strike groups, it cannot be considered as something that gives a decisive advantage" - from what such hangover?

    The range of the hypersonic Zircon is ~ 1000 km, which exceeds the range of the subsonic LRASM from 100 to 500 km (depending on how much the Americans are lying).

    When the Zircon is used as an aircraft ammunition, the combat radius of its carrier aircraft Su-35S will exceed that of the F-35C with LRASM by 660 km. In total, from 760 to 1160 km, the advantage of the first pair over the second, which makes the AUG unsuitable for striking coastal targets.

    When the Zircon is used as a submarine ammunition, the range of its use will lie entirely outside the AUG PLO zone, making it possible to shoot the enemy with impunity in a naval battle.

    Then why "Zircon" cannot be considered "something that gives a decisive advantage" - is it because the author of the article is jarred by the sudden flush of the 80-year-old American concept of war at sea into the toilet?

    Herbert Efremov said AUG to the morgue means to the morgue bully
    1. Seaflame
      Seaflame 12 October 2020 20: 34 New
      +2
      Targeting at such distances (like the Zircon range) becomes an overriding and not the most trivial task.
      1. Operator
        Operator 12 October 2020 20: 53 New
        -1
        There is not a single problem with external target designation for Zircon when working on AUG:
        - one RTR satellite in a geostationary orbit detects radio emission from a standard air defense system AUG in the person of the Hawkeye carrier-based AWACS aircraft at a distance of 40000 km, thereby controlling all the lower hemispheres, two RTR satellites in a geostationary orbit monitor the entire surface of the Earth online;
        - ZGRLS "Container" sees surface targets from the destroyer and above at a distance of 6000 km;
        - RTR satellites in low orbit detect radio emission from aircraft carrier takeoff and landing radio devices at a distance of 2000 km;
        - The carrier submarine "Zirkonov" provides direction finding of hydroacoustic noise of the aircraft carrier's propeller-driven group at a distance of 1000 km.

        When the Zircon approaches the calculated point of meeting with the AUG, it switches to homing with the operation of the RGSN through the stability window in the plasma cocoon, and its special warhead with a capacity of 1 MTn allows you to ignore all false targets in the AUG.
        1. The eye of the crying
          The eye of the crying 12 October 2020 22: 36 New
          0
          Quote: Operator
          one RTR satellite in a geostationary orbit detects radio emission from the standard air defense system AUG in the form of the Hawkai deck-based AWACS aircraft at a distance of 40000 km


          Even so, so what? How accurately does it determine the coordinates? smile
          1. Imperial Technocrat
            Imperial Technocrat 12 October 2020 23: 23 New
            -3
            Optical seeker? No, have not heard
            1. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 13 October 2020 09: 46 New
              +2
              Optical seeker? At the satellite? No, have not heard.
          2. OgnennyiKotik
            OgnennyiKotik 13 October 2020 00: 17 New
            0
            There is also a favorite word on this site - electronic warfare. Unlike ground systems, naval systems are extremely effective. And the announced increase in their fleet to 534 ships, where 140-240 are unmanned, gives a hint that they will be fine with RTR and EW.
          3. Operator
            Operator 13 October 2020 00: 17 New
            -3
            RGSN "Zirkona" from a height of 30 km sees a square of 100x100 km. Therefore, the accuracy of external target designation should be no more than 100 km. Do you have doubts about the similar accuracy of determination of coordinates using RTR?
        2. Seaflame
          Seaflame 13 October 2020 12: 56 New
          +4
          "Submarine carrier" Zirconov "provides direction finding of hydroacoustic noise of the aircraft carrier's propeller-driven group at a distance of 1000 km." Are you kidding me?) As a hydroacoustic engineer, I assure you, 1000 km. this is fantastic for the current (and for the promising ones too) GAS. The probability of detecting a target at such a distance is extremely unlikely (to put it mildly), even in the event of a DZAO (Far Zones of Acoustic Illumination).
          1. Operator
            Operator 13 October 2020 12: 59 New
            -4
            Tell this to the SOSUS developers and the Lexin brothers for company.
            1. Seaflame
              Seaflame 13 October 2020 14: 05 New
              +3
              SOSUS is a stationary system, not a shipborne one; the Russian Navy does not have systems of a similar scale. Have you heard the ringing, but do not know where he is? Tired couch eksperdy, climb in the area where they are zeros without sticks, only take time.
      2. Garris199
        Garris199 12 October 2020 21: 06 New
        0
        I don’t think it’s very critical. The target simply does not have time to go far. For Zircon's speed, it's almost like shooting at stationary targets.
        1. Seaflame
          Seaflame 13 October 2020 13: 00 New
          +1
          In 5 minutes even such a bandura as an aircraft carrier will leave the affected area, a rocket will flop next to it, unless it scares ...
          1. Kvazar
            Kvazar 20 October 2020 14: 57 New
            0
            In 5 minutes, the aircraft carrier at a speed of 30 miles will cover less than 5 km in total. At the same time, there is a megatonic SBCH, but most likely 500kt. That is, the fiery sphere will be 1,6-1,7 km. The zone of severe lesions is 7 km.
  • denis obuckov
    denis obuckov 12 October 2020 19: 47 New
    +5
    to supply a nuclear charge and the error in hitting the target plus or minus a kilometer will no longer play a role))
  • K-50
    K-50 12 October 2020 19: 56 New
    +4
    You might think that Zircon is the only device. There is also a "Dagger", with a range of up to a thousand kilometers and airborne. So in any way we will get the air group at the necessary and safe distance for the country.
    1. Volder
      Volder 13 October 2020 13: 16 New
      0
      Quote: K-50
      There is also a "Dagger", with a range of up to a thousand kilometers and airborne.
      "Dagger" flies at a distance of 2000 km without taking into account the combat radius of the carrier aircraft.
  • RAM
    RAM 12 October 2020 20: 49 New
    +2
    Delirium passed off as analytics.
  • Garris199
    Garris199 12 October 2020 20: 55 New
    +3
    It allows an E-2D Hawkeye early warning aircraft or even an F-35 fighter jet to detect such targets. long before
    ... How long will it take if the Zircon will fly on average 5 minutes to the target? Exclaim OMG !! Holly sews !! probably enough time.
    1. The eye of the crying
      The eye of the crying 12 October 2020 22: 38 New
      -4
      SAM reaction time - seconds. In 5 minutes they can launch dozens of missiles.
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 12 October 2020 23: 50 New
        +2
        18 radio correction channels = control of 18 missiles at a launch range of more than 20-30 km, with a decrease in the range less than the indicated 20-30 km in the region of one missile defense system in 1-2 seconds. This is precisely because the SAM with ARGSN did not fire at all and forgot. Shot and forgot to work, only at relatively short distances.
        1. The eye of the crying
          The eye of the crying 13 October 2020 09: 52 New
          -2
          Where does the number 18 come from?
          1. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 13 October 2020 09: 55 New
            +3
            Read everything about Aegis.
            3 radio spotlights, 18 radio correction channels ...

            And not a single real practical shooting more than according to some data 4, on other 6 targets was not carried out. What will happen if the ship will be barbecued 16-24 anti-ship missiles? An interesting question.
            And yes, I don’t argue, it’s not an easy task to break through even a KUG from Burke-class ships - only the Air Force from the top five is feasible ...
            There are troubles in over-the-horizon shooting, which will drastically reduce its effectiveness. Yes, they are still mastering it - but the results are already there. All this must be taken into account in operational planning ...
            1. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 13 October 2020 10: 02 New
              -3
              This is from one ship. But there are several of them in the order.
              1. Cyril G ...
                Cyril G ... 13 October 2020 10: 04 New
                +1
                Where did I refute this? Naturally one ship.
                1. The eye of the crying
                  The eye of the crying 13 October 2020 10: 05 New
                  -3
                  But the whole order will shoot. And, if necessary and available, they will launch dozens of missiles.
                  1. Cyril G ...
                    Cyril G ... 13 October 2020 11: 16 New
                    +5
                    Quote: Eye of the Crying
                    And, if necessary and available, they will launch dozens of missiles.


                    A question of the outfit of forces. There is a good book by Larry Bond. Game developer Harpoon and a former naval officer.
                    The book is called either Waterfall or Cauldron, but both are worth reading. There are an order of magnitude more jambs in Red Storm. So that's where the US is at war with Eurocon (Alternative EU). The book was published either in 1992 or in 1996.
                    And there are good descriptions of naval battles, professional. Read it. and BINOCULARS from the admiral are still in the Internet. Quite emotional, as the Pacific Fleet's KUG is fighting off the attack of the anti-ship missiles during the exercises. The launches, of course, are real. This is for understanding the question of what an attack by anti-ship missiles on ships is ... There will be no pure mathematics here, there will be CHAOS and the affected ships ...
                    As an example,

                    Target simulator of anti-ship missiles under fire

                    Target simulator of anti-ship missiles BQM-74

                    Hit the destroyer Comrade Burke. RM had two. One broke through.

                    Moreover, this is the right target - we like to use expired RCCs. Only if it hits a little it won't seem like it ..

                    So I am full of skepticism about the ability of ships to withstand air strikes ..
                    1. Cyril G ...
                      Cyril G ... 13 October 2020 11: 32 New
                      +2
                      There is a certain pattern of a squadron of strikers during WWII, with good flight training, a destroyer could well disable or sink. Although it could be clear in different ways. Tanikaze was once lucky to get out of the strike of 33 dive bombers.
                      Now apparently the same pattern will continue to work
                    2. The eye of the crying
                      The eye of the crying 13 October 2020 11: 59 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Cyril G ...
                      A question of the outfit of forces.


                      ... and ammunition. In general, it's funny: Zircon is a guaranteed successful attack on missile cellars, while for this it does not even need a warhead (or maybe a GOS) smile

                      Quote: Cyril G ...
                      Tanikaze was once lucky to get out of the strike of 33 dive bombers.
                      Now apparently the same pattern will continue to work


                      Guided weapons? Doubtful.
                      1. Cyril G ...
                        Cyril G ... 13 October 2020 12: 07 New
                        +2
                        Zircon is a guaranteed successful attack on missile cellars, while for this it does not even need a warhead (or maybe a GOS)

                        Where did I say such nonsense?

                        Guided weapons? Doubtful.

                        This is not the question. This is different. I gave an example of how something that is very unlikely can be.
                      2. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 13 October 2020 13: 37 New
                        -3
                        Quote: Cyril G ...
                        Where did I say such nonsense?


                        Why did you take it personally? It is quite obvious that I said it.
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 12 October 2020 23: 15 New
    +1
    To Zircon still build up and build up reconnaissance aircraft and satellites.
  • Imperial Technocrat
    Imperial Technocrat 12 October 2020 23: 22 New
    +2
    This makes no sense. LRASM - 560 km, Zircon - over 1000 km. I’m already silent about the fact that the American missile is a primitive subsonic one, and the Americans are not even capable of supersonic anti-ship, let alone hypersonic. So Russia covers the American fleet like a bull a sheep
  • Old26
    Old26 13 October 2020 00: 32 New
    +3
    Quote: 30 vis
    The fact that the Zircon hit it suggests that the fundamental problems with targeting the missile have been resolved.

    For starters, we only know that the target was naval. But stationary or moving is unknown
  • AlexSM
    AlexSM 13 October 2020 03: 38 New
    0
    Quote: Jacket in stock
    Another question is whether the sensitivity of the anti-missile missile seeker will be enough to capture the target, because you will have to shoot from afar. And after grabbing the rudders still have to work out the trajectory. And if Zircon really knows how to maneuver, then the task turns out to be very difficult.

    I just can't understand something, Zircon flies in a cloud of plasma, so the radars can't see it .... Since the striped ones want to detect it if it is invisible to the radar ??
    1. Jacket in stock
      Jacket in stock 13 October 2020 04: 21 New
      -1
      Quote: AlexSM
      how do the striped ones want to detect it if it is invisible to the radar ??

      Well, for example, optics.
      This is practically a meteorite, any IR will see Zircon "as soon as it emerges from the horizon.
      At an altitude of Hokai's flight of 10 km, immediately at the start.
      And there are also big doubts about radio invisibility.
      1. PROXOR
        PROXOR 14 October 2020 12: 26 New
        +2
        Quote: Jacket in stock
        At an altitude of Hokai's flight of 10 km, immediately at the start.

        Eco you attributed to Hokai. From 10 km, he sees an area with a radius of 350-400 km, depending on the place of the patrol on the planet. Yet again. I highly doubt that Hawkeye will leave more than 200 km from the AUG because fighters should cover it. 400 + 200 km = 600 km. And this is in ideal conditions for Hokai.
        And the start takes place 1000 km away. Already 400 km the rocket will pass invisible to the means of detection.
        But then it's more interesting.
        I saw Hokai Zircon in the IR range and then what? He transmits information to the AUG, but they cannot shoot air defense missiles. Even if the plasma absorbs only half of the radiation, the IDZHIS target acquisition radar will still not see it further than 200 km. The hockey player will have time to say goodbye to the AUG crews and request rescue equipment on the water, because he has nowhere to return.
        200 km is about 1 minute with a little air defense reaction. A massive salvo of air defense missiles will take one missile with a 50/50 success.
        In other words, for a guaranteed defeat of the AUG by zircons with a special warhead, 3 missiles are enough. And the Project 949 Antey submarine missile cruiser carries 72 Caliber-type missiles (well, or Zircon, the launcher is the same)
  • lopvlad
    lopvlad 13 October 2020 04: 12 New
    0
    The publication notes that the naval forces can detect "Zircons" at long distances using the new fire control and air attack countermeasures (NIFC-CA).


    what is the use of such a discovery if there is nothing to counteract "Zircon" with. You will know in a few minutes that the scribe will come or it does not matter, for the scribe will come unambiguously.

    it cannot be regarded as something that gives a decisive advantage


    it is precisely as something that gives a real advantage that it is viewed all over the world, no matter what they say about it.
    For example, the depth of the US AUG air defense does not exceed 700 km, while the maximum range of the Zircon missile, according to official data, is close to 1000 km. What does this mean?
    This means that in order to strike at the AUG, our carrier ships of this weapon do not need to enter the AUG air defense zone, as well as our other hypersonic Dagger missile, also sharpened to defeat the AUG.
    Russia's military capabilities are growing, if in 2015 we surprised the world that we are able to deliver a high-precision missile strike with cruise missiles at targets located thousands of kilometers from us, now we can safely say that Russia has the opportunity to deliver a high-precision hypersonic strike with cruise missiles from sea carriers while without entering the air defense zone of our potential enemy.
    1. Jacket in stock
      Jacket in stock 13 October 2020 04: 29 New
      0
      Quote: lopvlad
      what's the point of such a detection if there is nothing to counteract the "Zircon".

      Yes. There is no reliable anti-missile. But even those that are, the probability of defeat is not at all zero. On a collision course of an anti-missile, a speed exceeding the speed of the target is not at all necessary. Here, the sensitivity of the seeker and maneuverability are more important.
      But. We do not know anything about the resistance of Zircon to electronic warfare.
      Americans have a choice of hindrances for every occasion. And given the difficult working conditions of the Zircon GOS (if it is there in general), then the problem of resistance to electronic warfare becomes very serious.
      1. lopvlad
        lopvlad 13 October 2020 05: 16 New
        +1
        Quote: Jacket in stock
        But even those that are, the probability of defeat is not at all zero. On a collision course of an anti-missile, a speed exceeding the speed of the target is not at all necessary.


        it is unnecessary for an anti-missile to exceed the speed of a missile if the missile is ballistic or if it is a cruise missile, the speed and maneuverability of this missile slightly exceed the characteristics of the anti-missile.
        If we take maneuverability, then the maneuverability of an anti-missile to intercept a missile must necessarily be higher. Do you seriously think that a supersonic missile is comparable in maneuverability to a hypersonic missile flying in a cloud of hot plasma? And we still omit the moment that the "Zircon" has a countermeasure on board to bypass air defense. For me, it will roughly blow the roof off a conventional supersonic cruise missile when trying to counter the "Zircon" (at the GOS).
        1. Jacket in stock
          Jacket in stock 13 October 2020 06: 13 New
          +2
          Quote: lopvlad
          .Do you seriously think that a supersonic missile is comparable in maneuverability to a hypersonic missile flying in a cloud of hot plasma?

          What is the connection between plasma and maneuverability? - no.
          And yes, a supersonic rocket will certainly be an order of magnitude more maneuverable in terms of the speed of changing the direction of flight, it has less inertia.
          Here the problem is different, because of the high speed of Zircon, the anti-missile must be launched strongly in advance, over 600 kilometers. Hawkeye calculates the trajectory of the missile and issues a forecast of the meeting point to the anti-missile. It is enough for Zircon to change the course even by fractions of a degree, this point leaves the original pointing point for many kilometers. And the missile defense needs to change its course much faster. Therefore, the task of intercepting a maneuvering target at such speeds is a revolutionary breakthrough.
          1. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 13 October 2020 13: 40 New
            -4
            Quote: Jacket in stock
            It is enough for Zircon to change the course even by a fraction of a degree, this point leaves the original guidance point for many kilometers


            If the anti-missile missile just makes Zircon miss, her task is complete.
          2. lopvlad
            lopvlad 14 October 2020 18: 25 New
            0
            Quote: Jacket in stock
            Hawkeye calculates the trajectory of the missile and issues a forecast of the meeting point to the anti-missile.


            show me a system that is able to calculate the trajectory of a hypersonic cruise missile and then you can speak in detail.

            Quote: Jacket in stock
            And yes, a supersonic rocket will certainly be an order of magnitude more maneuverable in terms of the speed of changing the direction of flight, it has less inertia.


            According to your inventions, hypezvuk is generally bullshit and the maneuverability of a hypersonic cruise missile is at the level of a brick, so that it can be thrown with caps or shot down with any supersonic missile.
            If we proceed from your logic, then a subsonic cruise missile is an order of magnitude more maneuverable than any supersonic one, since it has less inertia (roughly speaking, its braking period is shorter in time)

            Quote: Jacket in stock
            due to the high speed of Zircon, the anti-missile must be launched strongly in advance, over 600 kilometers.


            yeah, five minutes before the Zircon launch and let it sit in ambush and wait for the Zircon missile to shoot down on a collision course.
      2. Volder
        Volder 13 October 2020 13: 25 New
        -1
        Quote: Jacket in stock
        On a collision course of an anti-missile, a speed exceeding the speed of the target is not at all necessary. Here, the sensitivity of the seeker and maneuverability are more important.
        The maneuverability of the anti-missile should be hypersonic, because the Zircon maneuvers on hypersonic.
    2. Nemchinov Vl
      Nemchinov Vl 15 October 2020 17: 51 New
      -1
      Quote: lopvlad
      Russia's military capabilities are growing
      honest and real ?!
      Quote: lopvlad
      ... if in 2015 we surprised the world by being able to deliver a high-precision missile strike with cruise missiles at targets that are thousands of kilometers away ...
      , but objectively on stationary and on the ground (!)you think this aspect is not important ?!,
      Quote: lopvlad
      ... now we can safely say that Russia has it became possible to deliver a high-precision hypersonic strike with cruise missiles from sea carriers while not entering the air defense zone of our potential enemy.
      ?! that's how ?! so "skips by leaps and bounds" Erdogan, for example ?! And he avenged the Russian Federation for Syria, supporting Azerbaijan with his drones in Armenia (and they turned out to be very good, in fact) ?!.... or not ?! if from under his shoulder, even "petty Khan of Azerbaijan", began to speak out loud, and not without a grin ?!.... AND can will it is more correct to speak about the highlighted fragment in your statement, after the adoption "Zircon" .... ?! .... Is it worth it to anticipate ?! What is it like to present the desired as already valid ?! . hi
  • lopvlad
    lopvlad 13 October 2020 05: 22 New
    +3
    Quote: Jacket in stock
    We do not know anything about the resistance of Zircon to electronic warfare.


    the stability is phenomenal. Russia is the first country in the world to solve the problem of commands passing through the plasma layer in which the Zircon flies. What does this mean? Yes, it's stupid that the enemy, in order to influence the REB on our missile, needs not only to solve this problem, but to develop the teams themselves capable of knocking down the GOS from the target.
    1. Jacket in stock
      Jacket in stock 13 October 2020 06: 22 New
      -2
      Quote: lopvlad
      phenomenal stability

      Blessed is he who believes ....
      Quote: lopvlad
      Russia is the first country in the world to solve the problem of teams passing through the plasma layer in which the Zircon is flying. What does this mean? Yes, it's stupid that the enemy, in order to influence the REB on our missile, needs not only to solve this problem, but to develop the teams themselves capable of knocking down the GOS from the target.

      There is an elder in the garden and a man in Kiev.
      If Zircon has a seeker and it is radar, i.e. sees a radio wave reflected from the ship. Why won't she see the wave emitted by this ship? Just because you want to?
      And, by the way, the Americans have worked out the setting of active countermeasures long ago, and worked out perfectly. Shooting down a radar seeker is no longer a problem for them.
      Rather, on the contrary, Zircon will have even less methods of target selection against the background of interference, and there will be no time to figure out what he caught through the plasma. All the hope is that having caught a target from afar, before the ship firing traps and turning on the orders that distract other ships, he will no longer change course being distracted by trickery.
      1. meandr51
        meandr51 13 October 2020 20: 15 New
        0
        It won't come to that at all, just as it didn't come to the Patriots in Saudi Arabia.
      2. ZEMCH
        ZEMCH 13 October 2020 20: 53 New
        +1
        Quote: Jacket in stock
        the inclusion of diverting interference by other ships of the order, he will no longer change course being distracted by trickery.

        Neither they nor Zircon will have time
      3. Dmitry Wolf
        Dmitry Wolf 20 October 2020 00: 11 New
        0
        probably he has good brains - he can select the largest target in advance and "remember", then optics - even an old Iskander shot out "somewhere there" is able to direct cassettes, let's say, at a sudden supply convoy
  • Paphnutius the Unforgettable
    Paphnutius the Unforgettable 13 October 2020 10: 46 New
    +3
    Well, yes, everything is logical! Point number 1: There is a rocket, which has no analogues and is not expected by our "partners"! Point # 2: This missile makes all aircraft carrier formations "floating debris". What to do? As always, make a good face on a bad game. It is necessary to tell more that this is all garbage, but aircraft carriers are wow, a wunderfafl in a cube !!!! Why, just because you will constantly say KHALVA-KHALVA, your mouth will not become sweeter!
  • Tektor
    Tektor 13 October 2020 11: 05 New
    0
    It is not clear yet whether Zircon makes maneuvers, even the simplest ones, such as "snake", when diving at a target. If it does, then it will be very difficult to shoot down Zircon. Because the missiles existing at the partners can only shoot down "head-on". Therefore, it can only be knocked down by the attacked tub. And if it is an aircraft carrier, then it has no chance.
    We are modernizing Antei Irkutsk and Chelyabinsk according to project 949AM, which will be able to take on board 72 Zircons each. There is Severodvinsk and other boats - carriers of cruise missiles. It is on them that the real threat to the territory of the United States will depend with a flight time of 5 minutes.
    1. Nemchinov Vl
      Nemchinov Vl 15 October 2020 18: 08 New
      -1
      Quote: Tektor
      We are modernizing Antei Irkutsk and Chelyabinsk according to the 949AM project,
      well ... with our deadlines ... it's at least 6 years (if not more),(!) and if - [i] "will log in successfully" [/ i] ...
      Quote: Tektor
      There is Severodvinsk and other boats
      so it will be possible to speak not hurt than a series of tests will pass successfully .. (!).
      Quote: Tektor
      It is on them that the real threat to the territory of the United States will depend with a flight time of 5 minutes.
      well this (!).... There, about the noise of "Severodvinsk", if I'm not mistaken - Maxim Klimov (aka Mina, etc.), responded very unflatteringly (with the words - "thunders all over the Barents Sea" ....) ... ?! It will be difficult to approach unnoticed at a launch distance of 5 minutes of a rocket if you "graze right at the exit from the base", and wherein - "you bang" .... These are not mine, but his (submariner) quotes (!).... hi .
  • DOC
    DOC 13 October 2020 11: 31 New
    +3
    We have a problem with target designation - it simply does not exist in the form in which it was available for long-range anti-ship missiles during the Soviet era. There are no reconnaissance aircraft and target designation, there are no significant air reconnaissance forces in general. Aviation itself is a means of reconnaissance, and target designation with the help of a combat aircraft can be obtained with the most accurate. This missile must get into the naval aviation. And then it actually turns out to be a superweapon. The second problem is the small number of carriers. Today, the Navy has three Zircon carriers for all fleets, all in the Northern Fleet: the frigate Admiral Gorshkov, from which these missiles flew, the admiral Kasatonov of the same type, and the Severodvinsk submarine. Project 20385 corvettes could be included in the list of carriers, but, apparently, they have huge problems with the radar complex - serious enough not to count on them at all.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 13 October 2020 13: 41 New
      +4
      Quote: DOC
      Project 20385 corvettes could be included in the list of carriers, but, apparently, they have huge problems with the radar complex - serious enough not to count on them at all.


      20385 pr., In my opinion, is needed primarily as a carrier of PLUR as part of the KPUG in the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet
      1. DOC
        DOC 13 October 2020 14: 00 New
        -2
        If you look at 20385 separately, then yes, a good ship. But according to the concept, it fell between 20380 with uranium and 22350 with uranium, and it seems that the expediency of this middle is not obvious for the leadership of the fleet.
    2. ZEMCH
      ZEMCH 13 October 2020 21: 00 New
      +1
      To put into service Zircon, i.e. by 2022, there will be more carriers and the control center will give out to whom))
      In MA so far the dimensions do not allow and there are no carriers physically, the Tu-22M3 all went to YES, I think they will remain there, even after the upgrade to the Tu-22M3M. The Su-34 and Su-30 are not yet considered in the MA topic as launch vehicles. So, if Zircon is used from the air, then in the VKS
  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 13 October 2020 11: 36 New
    +2
    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
    gives a hint that they will be fine with RTR and EW.


    This suggests that the military-industrial complex will receive a fat jackpot, save on the maintenance of personnel and does not say anything either about electronic warfare or about RTR - this does not matter in this context.
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 13 October 2020 13: 19 New
      -2
      I meant that for the most part it will be electronic warfare ships (in particular, RTR), PLO, air defense / missile defense. With the tasks of search, detection, guidance, creation of false targets, suppression, etc., the weapons are unlikely to be on them, loving a ship full of tomahawks, it’s still a pleasure.
  • Old26
    Old26 13 October 2020 20: 24 New
    +4
    Quote: Alex777
    Is the ship's LRASM (930 km range) suspended on airplanes?
    For this they have a JASSM-ER for 980 km. Purely aviation.

    And this is essentially the same rocket - AGM-158C

    Quote: Tektor
    We are modernizing Antei Irkutsk and Chelyabinsk according to project 949AM, which will be able to take on board 72 Zircons each.

    Don't make it up. It was clearly and clearly stated that there would be 72 Caliber on the modernized Antaeus. The Ministry of Defense did not even mention that there will be 72 Onyxes. And what will be on them "Zircon" - in general, we are not talking

    Quote: Volder
    The maneuverability of the anti-missile should be hypersonic, because the Zircon maneuvers on hypersonic.

    I wonder what will happen after a sharp maneuver with the "Zircon" at a speed of 8-9M. How many pieces will it fall apart? And hypersonic missiles have existed for a very long time ...

    Quote: Paphnutius the Unforgettable
    Well, yes, everything is logical! Point number 1: There is a rocket, which has no analogues and is not expected by our "partners"!

    Of course not. In 2004, the American X-43A hypersonic missile reached a speed of 9,8M. A record that has not yet been broken by a CD with a direct flow. The X-51 reached a speed of 5,1M in 2010 or 2011. A year before the shooting began at “Zircon”. The fact that the Americans were not satisfied with the performance characteristics of these missiles and they did not begin to deploy them does not mean that the Zircon has no analogues in the world.

    Quote: Paphnutius the Unforgettable
    Point # 2: This missile makes all aircraft carrier formations "floating debris".

    Is it possible to grumble already?

    Quote: lopvlad
    For example, the depth of the US AUG air defense does not exceed 700 km, while the maximum range of the Zircon missile, according to official data, is close to 1000 km. What does this mean?

    It is not known yet. Nobody knows whether the Zircon with a 1000-km range will be anti-ship or operational-tactical. This rocket will be one or two different. It's like "Caliber". The name is the same, but the functions are different. And the 3M14, with its range of 1500-2500 km, cannot hit ships, it is against targets on land. So it's too early to say what and how
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 13 October 2020 20: 53 New
      -2
      Thanks for the comments, it's very interesting and informative to read them! hi
    2. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 13 October 2020 22: 24 New
      -2
      Quote: Old26
      this is essentially the same rocket - AGM-158C

      The news came out today.
      The U.S. Air Force says the ship's hypersonic booster warhead in its upcoming AGM-183A hypersonic air-launched rapid response missile will fly at an average speed of 5000 to 6000 mph. This would be roughly between Mach 6,5 and Mach 8. At this speed, it would only take 10-12 minutes to hit targets 1000 miles away. Air Force Major General Andrew Gebara, director of strategic plans, programs and requirements, Air Force Global Strike Command (AFGSC), disclosed this information in an interview with Air Force magazine.

      https://www.airforcemag.com/article/buff-up/
    3. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 13 October 2020 23: 31 New
      -1
      The Air Force is also pursuing a hypersonic jet-powered missile called Chaos, which is likely to be smaller than the ARRW and can be carried in fighter-sized aircraft as well as large bombers. It will be based on the concept of hypersonic air-breathing weapons, or HAWC, which the Air Force is developing in conjunction with the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency.

      “I believe the closest solution that we can successfully use and quickly implement is ARRW,” Ray said in a press briefing during the Air Force Association's virtual conference on Air, Space and Cybernetics. “And we can do it [with] B-52 and B-1. We need to do this as soon as possible. And I think the overall Air Force got it right that we want to [chase] a scrambling missile configuration that can be launched from other platforms. … We have to do both. ”

      ARRW could achieve its initial operational capability within “the next two years,” Ray said.
  • Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 13 October 2020 20: 38 New
    0
    wink all is well, but why are our experts silent that the Zircons will be placed on the Bastions?)
  • ZEMCH
    ZEMCH 13 October 2020 20: 51 New
    +1
    The publication notes that the naval forces can detect "Zircons" at long distances using the new fire control and air attack countermeasures (NIFC-CA). It allows the E-2D Hawkeye early warning aircraft, or even an F-35 fighter jet, to detect such targets long before the ships' radar detects a threat. At least in theory.

    In theory, all our stations see everything and all the missiles fly where they should and how they should))
  • Old26
    Old26 13 October 2020 21: 50 New
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    wink all is well, but why are our experts silent that the Zircons will be placed on the Bastions?)

    Do you need it? If ships and aircraft, carriers of "Zircons" have chances of getting external target designation, then "Bastion" has zero chances. His "Monolith" does not work at this range. And why does the coastal complex need a rocket that will have such a disadvantage as a decent dead zone
  • Kerensky
    Kerensky 13 October 2020 21: 52 New
    0
    And if the aircraft carrier is sheathed with bed nets and tightened with a camouflage net, then Zircon simply will not recognize it.
    What do your colleagues think - can you get at least $ 50 million from the Americans for an idea? Or immediately demolish an interview with an expert in Sokhu? They even pay for such opinions ...
  • IC
    IC 14 October 2020 01: 16 New
    0
    Surface ships of the Russian Navy are unlikely to approach a combat position against an aircraft carrier formation. Only modern nuclear submarines can be effective.
    1. agond
      agond 14 October 2020 08: 54 New
      0
      Quote: IMS
      Surface ships of the Russian Navy are unlikely to approach a combat position against an aircraft carrier formation. Only modern nuclear submarines can be effective.

      It is not at all necessary to launch Zircon from a surface or submarine ship, you can simply from the ground, say, to place it on the islands of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, or elsewhere or, for example, in the Crimea, and then a mine in the ground is much cheaper than a mine on a submarine.
      1. Lex_is
        Lex_is 15 October 2020 17: 17 New
        0
        place on the islands of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, or elsewhere, or for example in the Crimea, and then a mine in the ground is much cheaper than a mine on a submarine.

        Then it's better to place it in the Patriot park right away, there will be more sense.
  • lopvlad
    lopvlad 14 October 2020 18: 26 New
    0
    Quote: Jacket in stock
    What is the connection between plasma and maneuverability? - no.


    and what did someone write about the relationship between maneuverability and plasma?
  • shinobi
    shinobi 17 October 2020 15: 59 New
    +2
    That infuriates blind admiration for aircraft carriers. Yes, it was not stronger than this wunderwafe in the oceans until anti-ship missiles were put into service. The advantage of an aircraft carrier, if you throw away all the loud advertising husk, in front of a classic cruiser only in the range of weapons. So it was. Now, the missile cruiser gives a volley. from 6 anti-ship missiles while the aircraft carrier is releasing 1 aircraft. One hit on the take-off deck near the wheelhouse and that's all. A large floating radioactive pile of trash cannot be repaired by the crew. Only in the coastal dock. And this is an ordinary Onyx or Granite missile, the speed of Mach 2,5. In this case, the strike squadron will be somewhere halfway to the point of the cruiser's salvo from which it has already dumped. Those who believe in missile defense, I will disappoint. In real missile duels, the aircraft carrier's chances of surviving are minimal even under the cover of a security warrant. Experience of battles for Midway, the second world, showed that very often aviation after completing a mission simply has nowhere to return. There is no chance at all. The value of these floating devourers of billions is greatly overestimated, and the value of anti-ship missiles is underestimated. Although the experience of using Mosquitoes in the Egyptian war, Exossets in the Falkland events, they are unambiguously hinting at what could be.
  • Storog dvornik
    Storog dvornik 17 October 2020 21: 43 New
    0
    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
    announced increase in their fleet to 534 ships

    Wishlist not confirmed by financial, industrial and human resources ...
    1. agond
      agond 19 October 2020 23: 19 New
      0
      Quote: shinobi
      That infuriates blind admiration for aircraft carriers

      So dangerous is not the aircraft carrier as such, but the order - the connection of ships that, even without the aircraft carrier, pose a serious threat
  • Siegfried
    Siegfried 20 October 2020 00: 10 New
    0
    so no one answered the question of how does Zircon capture and aim at a target at a speed of 8M ?? That is, it turns out that we managed to solve the problem of radar operation under plasma formation conditions? During the test, the missile hit a target such as a ship? Or just flopped at 8M anywhere?
    1. agond
      agond 20 October 2020 18: 43 New
      0
      Quote: Siegfried
      so no one answered the question of how does Zircon capture and aim at a target at a speed of 8M ??

      The answer is simple, if the S-400 48N6DM air defense missile: by the time the fuel burns out, it has a speed of 8,47M 2500 m / s and is aiming at the plane, then why cannot Zircon at a speed of 8M hover over the ship?