Military Review

Armenian defeat. How the Turkish army captured Kars and Alexandropol

69
Armenian defeat. How the Turkish army captured Kars and Alexandropol

Ararat regiment is heading to the front. 1920


Armenia counted on the support of the Entente, primarily the United States. President Wilson invited Erivani to oppose the Kemalist Turkey, promising aid. Armenia was promised to include all historical land. The Armenian leadership has swallowed this bait.

Sevres world. Diplomatic War Preparation


On August 10, 1920, peace was signed in Sevres, France between the Entente countries and the Sultan's Turkey. According to him, Turkey became a semi-colony of the West. Its army was reduced to 50 thousand people, finances fell under Western control. Constantinople renounced all imperial possessions. They fell under the control of Britain, France and partly Italy. The European possessions of Turkey were transferred to Greece, as were some enclaves in Asia Minor. Even Turkey itself was dismembered: Kurdistan was allocated, part of the land was transferred to independent Armenia. The borders of Turkey and Armenia were to be determined by the American President Woodrow Wilson. Constantinople and the strait zone were given under international control. The Sultan's government was forced to recognize this shameful peace.

However, the Grand National Assembly in Ankara (Angor), headed by Mustafa Kemal, refused to recognize the Treaty of Sevres. The Kemalist government believed that in order to save Turkey, it was necessary to defeat the Greeks and Armenians, whose ambitions could destroy the Turkish statehood. Clashes in the Armenian-Turkish border zone have never stopped. In June 1920, Armenian troops took control of the city of Oltu and most of the Oltinsky district, which did not formally belong to Turkey, but was occupied by pro-Turkish formations (mainly Kurdish) and units of the Turkish army. From the point of view of the Turks, it was an Armenian invasion. In July, the Kemalists demanded that Erivan withdraw its troops.


Partition of Turkey proposed under the Treaty of Sevres. Light yellow shows the territory that should have gone to Turkey, dark yellow - the territory of Kurdistan, blue - the territory that went to Armenia, blue - Greece. Areas of influence of Great Britain (red), France (lilac), Italy (green) and the international demilitarized zone of the straits are shaded

Moscow's position played an important role in these events. The Bolsheviks planned to restore their power in the Transcaucasus. To do this, it was necessary to weaken and destroy the power of the Armenian nationalists (Dashnaktsutyun). Also, the Bolsheviks did not want to see Armenia under the "wing" of the West, the United States. In addition, unexpectedly, Russia and Turkey found themselves in the same camp offended by the Entente. Russia and then Turkey were subjected to Western intervention. Constantinople and the straits under the control of Britain and France - such a prospect did not please the Russians. Thus, the Russians and the Turks temporarily became allies. The Kemalists reacted favorably to the Sovietization of Azerbaijan, which was previously part of the Turkish sphere of influence. They even provided all possible assistance in this matter. Kemalist Turkey helped the 11th Soviet army take control of Nakhichevan in late July - early August 1920. Moscow first held unofficial negotiations with Kemal (through Khalil Pasha), and then established official contact with the National Assembly. The Soviet government decided to support the Kemalists with finances (gold), weapons and ammunition.

Armenia counted on the support of the Entente, primarily the United States. Wilson invited Erivani to oppose the Kemalist Turkey, promising aid with weapons, ammunition, equipment and food. Armenia was promised to include all historical lands in its composition. The Armenians have swallowed this bait. At the same time, the Armenians had no allies in the South Caucasus. It was not possible to come to an agreement with Moscow. Georgia took a coldly neutral position. The 30-strong Armenian army was exhausted by years of bloody battles and did not have reliable logistic support. The economy of the republic was in ruins. The Armenian political leadership clearly underestimated the enemy, hoping that the collapse of the Ottoman Empire would become the foundation for the creation of "Great Armenia". Their own forces and means were overestimated, as were the hopes that "the West will help." The United States and the Entente provided a small amount of weapons and a small loan.

On November 22, 1920, the American President signed and certified the arbitration award on the border between Armenia and Turkey. Armenia was to receive parts of the provinces of Van, Bitlis, Erzurum and Trebizond (a total of over 103 thousand sq. Km). The new Armenian state was supposed to have an area of ​​more than 150 thousand square meters. km and got access to the Black Sea (Trebizond). But this decision did not matter, since it was not confirmed by force.


The border between Turkey and Armenia, defined by US President Woodrow Wilson

Armenian pogrom


In June 1920, the Turks mobilized in the eastern vilayets (provinces). the 50-strong Eastern Army was formed under the command of Lieutenant General Kazim Pasha Karabekir. Also, the Turks were subordinate to numerous irregular formations. Even in the conditions of the successful offensive of the Greek army in the west of Anatolia, the Kemalists did not weaken the eastern direction. On September 8, Ankara hosted a meeting of the Supreme Military Council with the participation of General Karabekir, who proposed starting an operation against Armenia. The Kemalists held talks with Tiflis and received confirmation of Georgia's neutrality.

In the first half of September 1920, Turkish troops recaptured Olta. Large-scale hostilities began on September 20. On September 22, Armenian troops launched an offensive in the Bardiz area, but ran into strong enemy resistance and suffered heavy losses. On the 24th, the Armenians retreated to Sarakamish. On the 28th, the Turkish army, having a significant numerical superiority and better support, went on the offensive in several directions. On September 29, the Turks took Sarikamysh, Kagyzman, on the 30th the Armenians left Merden. The Kemalists went to Igdir. The Turkish offensive has traditionally been accompanied by the massacre of local Christians. Those who did not have time or did not want to flee died. All in two months of fighting, 200-250 thousand civilians were killed. A few days later, the Turkish offensive ran out of steam, and a two-week lull set in. Meanwhile, under the guise of war, the Georgians tried to occupy the disputed lands in the Ardahan District. This distracted part of the forces of Armenia.

In early October 1920, Erivan asked for diplomatic support from the Entente. The West ignored this request. Only Greece tried to increase pressure on the Kemalists in Anatolia, but this did not help Armenia. The Americans did not provide the promised assistance to the Armenian Republic. On October 13, 1920, the Armenian army tried to launch a counteroffensive in the Kars direction, but the forces were insufficient. At the same time, the Armenian troops were partially demoralized by rumors of a Russian-Turkish alliance. The number of deserters grew. At the end of October 1920, the Turkish army resumed its offensive. Ardahan fell on October 29. The Turks occupied the southern part of the Ardahan district and on October 30 they took Kars quite easily, capturing about 3 thousand people. The Kemalists staged a massacre in the city, destroyed a monument to Russian soldiers. The Armenian troops were demoralized and retreated indiscriminately. A few days later, the Turks came to the river. Arpachai threatening Alexandropol. On November 3, the Armenian authorities proposed an armistice. The Turkish command set conditions: the surrender of Alexandropol, control over the railways and bridges in the area, the withdrawal of Armenian troops 15 km from the river. Arpachai. The Armenians have fulfilled these conditions. On November 7, the Turks occupied Alexandropol.


Delivery


General of Karabekir set even harsher conditions: disarmament of the Armenian army, further withdrawal of forces to the east. In essence, it was an offer of unconditional surrender. The Armenian parliament at an emergency meeting rejected these demands and decided to ask Moscow for mediation. On November 11, Turkish troops continued their offensive, pushing the enemy along the line of the Alexandropol-Karaklis railway. The Armenian army has lost its combat effectiveness. The troops were completely demoralized, the soldiers fled en masse. On November 12, the Turks occupied the Agin station and began to threaten Erivan. At the same time, the Turkish army began to attack on the Erivan direction from Igdir. In mid-November, the Kemalists launched an offensive in the Nakhichevan direction.

As a result, Armenia lost the ability to wage war. The army collapsed. People fled east. Only the region of the capital and Lake Sevan remained free. The question arose about the existence of the Armenian statehood and the Armenian people in general. Meanwhile, Georgian troops occupied the entire disputed area of ​​Lori. In gratitude for the neutrality, the Kemalists gave Tiflis guarantees of territorial integrity.

On November 15, 1920, Armenia asked the Kemalist government to start peace negotiations. On November 18, a truce was concluded for 10 days, then it was extended until December 5. The defeated Armenian nationalists could no longer resist either Ankara or Moscow. At the request of the Kemalists, the Armenian authorities abandoned the Sevres agreement. On December 2, peace was signed in Alexandropol. Kars and Surmalinsky district (over 20 thousand sq. Km) were transferred to the Turks. Theoretically, a plebiscite could be held in these areas on their belonging, but its result was a foregone conclusion. Karabakh and Nakhichevan passed under the Turkish mandate until the final decision on their status. The Dashnaks agreed to abandon military service, to reduce the army to 1,5 thousand people with several guns. Erivan withdrew its delegations from the United States and Europe, pledged to remove from the system of public administration all persons noticed in anti-Turkish activities and rhetoric. Erivan was supposed to annul all agreements that hurt Turkey. The Turks received the right to control the railways of Armenia, to take military measures on its territory. The occupation of the Alexandropol district could be maintained indefinitely. In fact, the rest of Armenia turned into a vassal of Turkey.

At the same time, the Dashnaks signed an agreement with Moscow on the establishment of Soviet power in Armenia. On December 4, 1920, the Red Army entered Erivan. The Sovietization of Armenia passed swiftly and without serious resistance. Armenia returned to the northern state. Soviet Russia refused to recognize the Treaty of Alexandropol and annulled it. In February-March 1921, Turkey and Russia resolved the Armenian issue in Moscow. The Soviet government decided that the port of Batum was more important than Kars. On March 16, 1921, the Moscow Treaty was signed. Turkey transferred the northern part of the Batumi region to the Georgian SSR; Armenia - Alexandropol and the eastern part of the Alexandropol district; Azerbaijan - Nakhichevan and Sharuro-Daralagez districts. The southern part of the Batumi region (Artvinsky district), Kars, the Surmalinsky district of the Erivan province and the western part of the Alexandropol district remained within Turkey. That is, Turkey received a number of territories that the Russian Empire recaptured from the Ottomans. This was another of the sad results of the Russian turmoil.
Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/
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Battle for Lviv. The failure of the Red Army in Galicia
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The fierce battle for the Kakhovsky bridgehead
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Battle on the Lower Dnieper
The last offensive of the Russian army
Battle of the Neman
Defeat of Tukhachevsky on the Neman
The defeat of the 3rd Soviet army in Belarus
The defeat of the Red Army on the Shara
How Turkey attacked Armenia
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  1. apro
    apro 7 October 2020 06: 05
    16
    This was another of the sad results of the Russian turmoil.

    I understand that the Armenians gained independence from the Russians. The entente decided to seize territories in Turkey. And when it did not work out, then the revolution is to blame ??? And the communists ??? great the author gets ...
    1. Plantagenet
      Plantagenet 7 October 2020 06: 53
      +1
      "Nikita Sergeevich, as usual after serious negotiations, was drawn to memories:
      - I remembered one episode from the Civil War that I told Mikoyan. I was in one of the units of the 11th Army, which was located near Kutaisi. Once I had to go to the political department. There were a lot of bedbugs in the hotel, so I decided to spend the night at the station. At night, a company of Armenian soldiers burst into the courtyard. As an agitator, I talked to them. They listened, but did not believe in the assessment of the situation in Turkey. When finished, one of them thanked for the conversation, but "the Turks must be cut." I again began to tell that in Turkey there are peasants, workers, landowners and capitalists and one cannot treat everyone in the same way. The soldiers agreed with everything, but "the Turks still need to be cut" "

      Leonid Mlechin “Why did Stalin create Israel?”
      1. Alexander Suvorov
        Alexander Suvorov 7 October 2020 07: 07
        +8
        Plantagenet (Alexander)
        Leonid Mlechin “Why did Stalin create Israel?”
        That Mlechin, that Khrushchev as sources of historical data are both storytellers worse than Andersen. So I wouldn't rely on them at all.
        But the given example is most likely true, Turks and Armenians cannot stand each other. True, if you remember what the Turks did in the conquered lands, then there is nothing to be surprised at. This is already at the genetic level and no propaganda can help here, the Armenian blood spilled there is not measured.
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 07: 39
          -4
          ... That Mlechin, that Khrushchev as sources of historical data are both storytellers worse than Andersen

          Name at least one source that is unconditionally reliable.
          1. Doliva63
            Doliva63 7 October 2020 20: 35
            +1
            Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            ... That Mlechin, that Khrushchev as sources of historical data are both storytellers worse than Andersen

            Name at least one source that is unconditionally reliable.

            PSS V.I. Lenin laughing
        2. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 7 October 2020 07: 44
          +3
          Quite right, Khrushch and Mlechin with their writings only solve small personal problems - to get rid of someone. to emphasize their role, and so on. This has nothing to do with objectivity. But the transition of the everyday hostility of the Turks and Armenians to a new, bloody level is the result of ethnic cleansing in WWI.
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 07: 58
            0
            Quote: Aviator_
            push your role

            Mlechin is a publicist. What, nafig, "role"?
            Quote: Aviator_
            This has nothing to do with objectivity.

            and what has to do with objectivity?
            1. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 7 October 2020 08: 10
              +4
              Mlechin is a publicist. What, nafig, "role"?

              He has only one role - to earn money by fulfilling the social order of the corresponding paying layer, while pretending to be "objective".
              1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 08: 15
                -2
                Quote: Aviator_
                He has one role - to make money

                and what's wrong with that? Books are written for royalties.
                Quote: Aviator_
                fulfilling the social order of the corresponding paying layer, while pretending to be "objective".

                What is this layer? Oh yeah, damn liberals. Stalin is not liked.
            2. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 7 October 2020 08: 13
              -1
              and what has to do with objectivity?

              Objectivity is related to the analysis of data from all conflicting parties.
              1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 08: 57
                -5
                Quote: Aviator_
                Objectivity is related to the analysis of data from all conflicting parties.

                Empty phrase-mongering. Everyone is worried about the "Armenian genocide" unrecognized by anyone, but somehow, apparently, they are not aware of the massacre of Muslims in the name of "Great Armenia". Nevertheless, according to Turkish data, in ten years the Armenians massacred more than half a million Turks. Ethnocide took place on both sides, but no one is in a hurry to do "data analysis from all conflicting parties." That way, you can even be known as a Turkophile if you start talking about the Dashnak outlaws, right?
        3. Plantagenet
          Plantagenet 7 October 2020 08: 10
          -2
          "Both Mlechin and Khrushchev are both storytellers worse than Andersen as sources of historical data."

          Do you think that Mlechin distorted the words of Khrushchev? Then write how they actually sounded. It was very interesting to compare with what Leonid Mlechin writes.

          “So I wouldn't rely on them at all.
          But this example is most likely true, "

          So true or false?
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 18: 30
            -3
            Quote: Plantagenet
            Do you think that Mlechin distorted the words of Khrushchev?

            Mlechin is recorded as an enemy of the people, because he writes about Stalin without servility.
        4. Eldor
          Eldor 7 October 2020 08: 50
          +2
          In the same 1920s, the Dashnaks (instead of protecting Erivan) drowned the Fergana Valley in blood, and became a catalyst for the protest that grew into Basmachi. Turks, Azerbaijanis and Armenians lived in the neighborhood, hence the mutual claims, wars and blood, only the genocide of Armenians is unilaterally unfolding. However, the massacre in distant Fergana shows that Armenians are not always white and fluffy, especially during ethnic showdowns in their historical homeland.
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 09: 05
            -2
            Quote: Eldor
            only the genocide of the Armenians is being spun one-sidedly.

            that's it! The Armenians are stubbornly trying to legalize the genocide in order to monetize it later. But - what Haim did, Ashot will not succeed.
        5. BAI
          BAI 7 October 2020 10: 05
          -1
          That Mlechin, that Khrushchev as sources of historical data are both storytellers worse than Andersen. So I wouldn't rely on them at all.

          If a source is dissatisfied for political or personal reasons, this does not mean that it is wrong. For example, Khrushchev clearly explained why Stalin pardoned Mannerheim. And this explanation is absolutely correct.
          “Here I am - the person who harshly criticizes Stalin. But I will tell everyone that Stalin was the smartest man. [368] We started the war with the Finns in 1939. Officially, they write that the Finns attacked us. Yes, the Finns never dreamed of it! We attacked them, I know that for sure. Then we wanted Finland to become Soviet. But when the Finns gave us in the face, and gave us a hard blow, Stalin went to peace. We took the Karelian Isthmus, and he immediately signed an agreement. The Finns won their independence through a stubborn struggle, and Stalin did not persist either. And when the Finns, during the war with Germany, moved against us with Hitler, Stalin nevertheless again went to a peace treaty with them, although the situation was as follows: a little more war and it was possible to conquer all of Finland. But he didn't go for it. Why? I think that this was the manifestation of Stalin's rationality. With this act he wanted to initiate the disintegration of the German coalition: since the Russians did not want to conquer Finland, they would not want, therefore, to conquer Hungary, Romania and other countries allied to Germany. This pushed Hitler's allies to make peace with us. And so it happened. Withdrew from the war Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary ”[41, p. 100].

          Where is Khrushchev wrong?
    2. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 7 October 2020 06: 59
      +2
      As practice shows, not a single people from the former Republic of Ingushetia, and then the USSR (well, except perhaps the Finns and Poles) are not able to live normally and develop independently. Even the richest Ukraine and Belarus, with the bulk of the Russian population, cannot live independently from Russia. Only after seceding from Russia do they turn into some kind of understate-appendages, incapable of independence from the word NIKAK. No matter how their rulers puffed their cheeks, these former republics, and now "independent" countries, do not represent anything in their essence either economically or politically. And Armenia is no exception to the rule here.
      1. Plantagenet
        Plantagenet 7 October 2020 07: 43
        +4
        "Even the richest Ukraine and Belarus,"
        What is the richest in Belarus? Oil? Gas? Maybe rare earth deposits?
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 7 October 2020 12: 40
          0
          Plantagenet (Alexander)
          What is the richest in Belarus? Oil? Gas? Maybe rare earth deposits?
          Maybe this is a secret behind seven seals for you, but the BSSR, on a par with the RSFSR, were two donor republics in the USSR, while the rest were consumers, especially the Baltic and the Caucasus.
          And by the way, for the especially gifted, wealth is determined not only by mineral deposits, but primarily by industrialization, as well as by the ability and desire to work.
    3. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 08: 03
      -3
      Quote: apro
      and when it did not work, the revolution is to blame And the communists ??? great the author gets ...

      this is the hypostasis of "Samsonov", where he is a bulkokhrust and a mourner for the Russian Empire.
      However, the Armenians, like loshkov, were bred by both the Reds and the Entente
    4. Olgovich
      Olgovich 7 October 2020 08: 58
      -9
      Quote: apro
      As I understand it, the Armenians, having gained independence from the Russians, were decided by the Entente seize territories in Turkey.


      How can you "capture" ... YOUR territories, recognized as such by the whole world (see the Treaty of Sevres) ?!

      At the same time, if the Treaty were fulfilled, today the situation would be radically different in favor of Russia, than today: would small stunted Turkeyrather than the second strongest country in Europe.

      But thanks to the anti-Russian forces of the Swiss bald foreign tourists, the eternal Turkish enemy of Russia (with no one Russia had so many wars as with him), Russian weapons, GOLD, lands, advisers, and the enemy were transferred and became what he is. It's hard to imagine greater stupidity and betrayal of Russia's interests

      Turkey was supplied with everything necessary at a time when in Russia, thanks to the "wise leadership" of the bald ones, MILLIONS of people were dying of hunger.

      And today, thanks to this, thousands of international terrorists deployed by Turkey from Syria, Afgagn, are killing and fighting a few kilometers from the Russian border, Turkey dreams and promotes the idea of ​​the Great Turan, in which there is a mass of Russian lands.

      And the whole world around Turkey is on fire, trying to protect itself from its impudent expansion: Syria, Libya, Greece, Iraq, Cyprus, Armenia
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 09: 18
        0
        Quote: Olgovich
        at the same time such and ALL the world (see. Treaty of Sevres) ?!

        Olgych, all these Versailles, Trianons, Sevres, etc. - the essence of pathetic palliatives that could not become the foundation of the world order for the long term. Neither Europe, much less the States, had a similar practice of post-war administration with a horizon of 10-20-30 years. It turned out that being a winner doesn't mean being master of the situation.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 7 October 2020 14: 57
          -3
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Olgych, all these Versailles, Trianons, Sevres, etc. - the essence of pathetic palliatives,

          The Versailles borders still mainly exist: Alsace, along A-Hungary, Romania, etc., and even the western borders of Ukraine and Belarus
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          It turned out that being a winner doesn't mean being master of the situation.

          Not 100%, but mostly.
      2. border
        border 7 October 2020 14: 12
        +2
        No one disputed the point that if Turkey had not been armed, then the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles were under the control of the British (like Gibraltar). And what would be the status of the Black Sea? and Who would control the straits ?. At that time, the Entente and other Western countries, together with the Dashnak Armenia and Menshevik Georgia, were more dangerous for the new (Soviet) Russia, and no one expected that in 15-20 years, and even more so 70, the Russian Federation would be left without a part of the lands that had become Russian in the 18th - early 20th century.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 7 October 2020 15: 30
          -4
          Quote: border
          while the Entente and other Western countries were more dangerous for the new (Soviet) Russia

          The fact is that the new "country" had little to do with Russia and its interests - hence the salvation of Turkey, instead of its destruction, and Brest 1918 instead of Berlin 45 already in 1918

          As for the Entente, Russia was its main component.
          Quote: border
          no one imagined that in 15-20 years, and even more so in 70, the Russian Federation will be left without part of the lands that became Russian in the 18th - early 20th centuries.


          What does "suppose" mean?

          The Bolsheviks from 1917 to 1940 absolutely officially created a bunch of states on the territory of Russia, cutting off 5 million km2 from Russia.

          What we have.
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 16: 25
            0
            Quote: Olgovich
            and Brest 1918 instead of Berlin 45 already in 1918

            well, clear, clear - the Bolsheviks stole the victory from Rossiyushka. And such a chance was given to Ludendorff, but he failed the spring offensive)
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 8 October 2020 10: 58
              -1
              Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              well, clear, clear - the Bolsheviks stole the victory from Rossiyushka.

              Not at Rossiyushka, but at the world.
              Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              And such a chance was given to Ludendorff

              not to Ludendorff, but to Adolf
    5. antivirus
      antivirus 7 October 2020 17: 17
      -2
      now we are waiting for "the horrors of the Turkish occupation of the entire Transcaucasia" and modestly offer our services as under Lenin-Trotsky-Frunze.
      Georgians-Armenians-Azerbadzans remained self-conscious in the early 20th century?

      on "candy wrappers from Wilson" are conducted?
    6. Victorio
      Victorio 8 October 2020 14: 15
      0
      Quote: apro
      This was another of the sad results of the Russian turmoil.

      As far as I understand, the Armenians, having gained independence from the Russians, who were held by the Entente, decided to seize territories in Turkey.and when it did not work, the revolution is to blame ??? And the communists ??? great the author gets ...

      ===
      probably this is meant: // Moscow's position played an important role in these events. The Bolsheviks planned to restore their power in the Transcaucasus. For this, it was necessary to weaken and destroy the power of the Armenian nationalists (Dashnaktsutyun) .//
      1. apro
        apro 8 October 2020 15: 29
        0
        Quote: Victorio
        For this, it was necessary to weaken and destroy the power of the Armenian nationalists (Dashnaktsutyun) .//

        So it was the initiative of the Bolsheviks? That is, the Bolsheviks ordered the Armenians to attack the Turks? An independent and very nationalistic Armenia was forced to fight against its will?
        1. Victorio
          Victorio 9 October 2020 10: 24
          0
          Quote: apro
          Quote: Victorio
          For this, it was necessary to weaken and destroy the power of the Armenian nationalists (Dashnaktsutyun) .//

          So this was the initiative of the Bolsheviks?that is, the Bolsheviks ordered the Armenians to attack against the Turks? an independent and very nationalistic Armenia was forced to fight against her will?

          ===
          your question sounded like this: / and when it didn't work out, the revolution is to blame ??? And the communists ??? great the author gets it .... /
          and for the author: the result of the support of the Bolsheviks for the Turks was the victory of the latter. and according to the results of this victory:
          / The southern part of the Batumi region (Artvinsky district), Kars, the Surmalinsky district of the Erivan province and the western part of the Alexandropol district remained within Turkey. That is, Turkey received a number of territories that the Russian Empire recaptured from the Ottomans. /
  2. Operator
    Operator 7 October 2020 08: 25
    -1
    Small peoples of the Caucasus can exist only as part of a large regional state - Russia, Turkey or Iran. Attempts to maintain their sovereignty by relying on distant states such as the United States or France is a utopia.

    The reason is the aggressive position of Turkey, which understands only force and with which none of the remote states wants to get involved, since they need it as a counterweight to Russia and Iran.

    So the Georgians, Armenians and Azerbaijanis have only two prospects - to become part of Russia or Turkey.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 10: 07
      +1
      Quote: Operator
      Small peoples of the Caucasus can exist only as part of a large regional state

      the small peoples of the Caucasus are cosmopolitan and prefer to parasitize far from their small homelands. All these grimaces of independence are a tribute to historical chimeras. At the same time, it is also a reserve resource for potential regional destabilization. So is the Middle East. The Armenians, I think, are still perplexed - how in 10 days of shooters in Karabakh they have not yet been dragged to the negotiating table by the "guarantors" in the person of the Russian Federation, the United States and France. All this sporadic fuss in Karabakh is always started for the sake of "well, reconcile us, reconcile!"
      But the presence of a heavyweight in the face of Turkey has greatly changed the balance.
  3. tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 7 October 2020 09: 14
    0
    President Wilson invited Erivani to oppose the Kemalist Turkey, promising aid. Armenia was promised to include all historical lands in its composition. The Armenian leadership has swallowed this bait.
    President Trump also offered help to Pashinyan, who also swallowed the bait. In the end, both Wilson and Trump deceived Armenia. And how many times before and after 1828 the Armenians step on the same rake.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 09: 24
      -1
      Quote: tihonmarine
      President Trump also offered to help Pashinyan,

      what kind of help Trump are talking about?
      1. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 7 October 2020 10: 42
        +1
        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        what kind of help Trump are talking about?


        Before you is nothing more than the US embassy on the outskirts of Yerevan. Fully autonomous facility with its own power plant and underground reservoir.
        Located on an area of ​​9 (!!!) hectares and is one of the largest American offices in the world!
        The number of personnel is, according to various estimates, from 2000 to 2500 thousand people!
        (The Russian embassy in Yerevan employs about 100 people.)
        Please tell me, after such a comparison, does anyone have questions about the political sympathies of the current Armenian government?
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 10: 59
          -5
          Well, and how did Trump help the Armenians by building this citadel in Yerevan? 9 hectares of land bought at a bargain price?
          1. tihonmarine
            tihonmarine 7 October 2020 11: 03
            +2
            Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Well, and how did Trump help the Armenians by building this citadel in Yerevan? 9 hectares of land bought at a bargain price?

            The main thing is not for what he bought, but what are these 2000-2500 "employees" doing if there are only 100 Russians. And who are these US employees?
            1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 11: 14
              -2
              this speaks not of the sympathies and antipathies of Armenia - no one asks the Armenians, but that the US considers this region a zone of its attention. Why not have a node in a weak-willed quasi-country with 2 thousand of its employees in the immediate vicinity of a potential enemy? And the Persians, in turn, hang out in Syria next to the Jews - is this normal?
            2. Airdefense
              Airdefense 7 October 2020 12: 13
              +1
              and what are these 2000-2500 "employees" doing?

              If they are not lying about the number, then obviously the intelligence and analytical center, first of all, probably because of its proximity to Iran.
              1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 12: 51
                -3
                the pepper is clear that they are not interested in the recipes of grandmother Siranush and not in Armenian folklore)
              2. tihonmarine
                tihonmarine 7 October 2020 14: 54
                0
                Quote: Airdefense
                If they are not lying about the number, then obviously the intelligence and analytical center,

                Well, here and do not go to the bathhouse, that in a micro state, at the level of the Republic of the Comoros, and as many as 2500 "dyplomatov". The largest embassy in the world. And who is behind all this on the Armenian side? But it's not that simple.
    2. antivirus
      antivirus 7 October 2020 17: 19
      0
      gilded rake - gold on the forehead is the personal gold of Armenians and no one will take it away
  4. iouris
    iouris 7 October 2020 10: 49
    0
    This is not an "Armenian defeat", but the defeat of the Russian empire. The army almost won the war, and then just left - abandoned positions. In 1991 the same thing happened. Accelerated.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 11: 00
      -1
      Quote: iouris
      The army almost won the war

      In wars, "almost" does not count.
      1. iouris
        iouris 7 October 2020 11: 18
        -2
        The thought is deep. I do not argue. However, war is a complex and multidimensional socio-political phenomenon. We must clearly understand who is responsible for what. Although to the essence of the issue under consideration, namely: who actually suffered defeat, this does not apply.
        By the beginning of the events, Armenia had no statehood and outside the Russian Empire had no opportunity to resist Turkey, which, although it suffered a military defeat, nevertheless did not completely lose its statehood and had sufficient resources to hold the remnants of the territory. Subsequently, the Bolshevik government "resolved the Armenian question" proceeding from the principle: politics is the art of the possible, rightly believing that "it is not over yet." But history decreed differently and during WWII the USSR was never able to annex the Armenian territories captured by Turkey.
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 7 October 2020 11: 44
      +1
      Quote: iouris
      This is not an "Armenian defeat", but the defeat of the Russian empire. The army almost won the war, and then just left - abandoned positions.
      By that time there was no empire, and since May 28, 1918 there was the Republic of Armenia, which counted on the support of the Entente countries for their demands at the Paris Peace Conference. Particular hopes were pinned on receiving an American mandate for Armenia, but they did not receive help from the Entente. And the Bolshevik army entered Erivan only on April 4, 1920, when everything was "wasted". So there is nothing to blame on the Russians, the guys wanted to do everything the best, but it turned out, as always.
  5. Timofey Charuta
    Timofey Charuta 7 October 2020 10: 50
    +3
    How lucky the Turks were with Ataturk (General Mustafa Kemal)! By 1918, Turkey was in a complete priest, Armenians, Greeks, the Entente + Great Troubles (that is, their own revolution) were climbing from all sides. All were thrashed and independence was defended. The Greeks went farthest, fighting was on the outskirts of Ankara (the Greek-Turkish war of 1918-1922).
    All the same, the natural militancy and the imperial mentality of the Ottomans is worth a lot.

    By the way, it was Ataturk who closed the mosque in Hagia Sophia and made a museum there. A great man, albeit a regional one.

    And the USA (Woodrow Wilson) threw the Armenians, like the Greeks. They realized in 1920 that all this public was no war against the Turks, money wasted.
    How is it with them now - it's hard to say ...
    1. iouris
      iouris 7 October 2020 11: 22
      -3
      Quote: Timofey Charuta
      How lucky the Turks are

      Here you are, pliz: the search for the prophet in a foreign country has begun again. Now in Turetchina. But what about Bavarian beer?
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 11: 41
        -3
        Quote: iouris
        But what about Bavarian beer?

        the Turkish olincclusive has outweighed. laughing
      2. Timofey Charuta
        Timofey Charuta 7 October 2020 12: 12
        +1
        Lads, let's get to the point. What's wrong?
        Many people all over the world admire Napoleon, Alexander the Great ... And what has beer to do with it?
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 12: 58
          -1
          Quote: Timofey Charuta
          What's wrong?

          everything is so) Atatürk acted in the interests of his country in the conditions of the collapse looming before it. Well, and the fact that he threw comrade Lenin and Co., not justifying the hopes of Sovietization - well, here, as they say ........
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 7 October 2020 11: 46
      0
      Quote: Timofey Charuta
      How is it with them now - it's hard to say ...

      It looks the same as it did then. And there is nowhere to wait for help.
  6. Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 7 October 2020 13: 14
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    if the Treaty would have been fulfilled

    It could not be fulfilled in any way, because Greece and Armenia were objectively weaker than even the Kemalist Eastern Turkey, and Italy, Britain, France and the United States did not want to fight with the Kemalists, because the fatigue from WWI and their internal problems made themselves felt.
  7. Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 7 October 2020 13: 16
    0
    Quote: Operator
    become part of Russia

    Oh, we don't need such happiness. The third time you offer us to step on the same rake ??
  8. Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 7 October 2020 13: 22
    +1
    Quote: iouris
    The army almost won the war, and then just left - abandoned positions.

    Because after three years of senseless massacre, the Oryol, Penza, Vyatka and Tula peasants finally realized: do we really need all these erzerums, meals, mushrooms, Vans and Bitlis? Go home, divide the landlord's land!

    Quote: iouris
    The USSR was never able to annex the Armenian territories captured by Turkey.

    For the Armenians, of course, sadness, but why did these lands come to the Russian peasants? Or did you (or your parents, acquaintances, etc.) really dreamed of moving to Kars for permanent residence? Or did you think to buy a dacha in the Artvin district?
  9. Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 7 October 2020 13: 27
    +1
    "This was another of the sad results of the Russian turmoil"
    Sad for whom? For Armenians? Yes, I don’t argue.
    But what is the sadness for the Russians? Even if the border with Turkey under the Treaty of Kars would have passed along the line as of January 1, 1914, these regions would still be included in the Armenian SSR and the Georgian SSR, and after 1991 they would have “floated away” from the Union.
    And the Russians living there would have been pressed by the Armenians and Georgians (actually, look how many Russians now live in independent Armenia and Georgia).
  10. border
    border 7 October 2020 14: 11
    -1
    Quote: Olgovich
    Quote: apro
    As I understand it, the Armenians, having gained independence from the Russians, were decided by the Entente seize territories in Turkey.


    How can you "capture" ... YOUR territories, recognized as such by the whole world (see the Treaty of Sevres) ?!

    At the same time, if the Treaty were fulfilled, today the situation would be radically different in favor of Russia, than today: would small stunted Turkeyrather than the second strongest country in Europe.

    But thanks to the anti-Russian forces of the Swiss bald foreign tourists, the eternal Turkish enemy of Russia (with no one Russia had so many wars as with him), Russian weapons, GOLD, lands, advisers, and the enemy were transferred and became what he is. It's hard to imagine greater stupidity and betrayal of Russia's interests

    Turkey was supplied with everything necessary at a time when in Russia, thanks to the "wise leadership" of the bald ones, MILLIONS of people were dying of hunger.

    And today, thanks to this, thousands of international terrorists deployed by Turkey from Syria, Afgagn, are killing and fighting a few kilometers from the Russian border, Turkey dreams and promotes the idea of ​​the Great Turan, in which there is a mass of Russian lands.

    And the whole world around Turkey is on fire, trying to protect itself from its impudent expansion: Syria, Libya, Greece, Iraq, Cyprus, Armenia

    No one disputed the point that if Turkey had not been armed, then the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles were under the control of the British (like Gibraltar). And what would be the status of the Black Sea? and Who would control the straits ?. At that time, the Entente and other Western countries, together with the Dashnak Armenia and Menshevik Georgia, were more dangerous for the new (Soviet) Russia, and no one expected that in 15-20 years, and even more so 70, the Russian Federation would be left without a part of the lands that had become Russian in the 18th - early 20th century.
  11. border
    border 7 October 2020 14: 11
    -1
    Quote: Olgovich
    Quote: apro
    As I understand it, the Armenians, having gained independence from the Russians, were decided by the Entente seize territories in Turkey.


    How can you "capture" ... YOUR territories, recognized as such by the whole world (see the Treaty of Sevres) ?!

    At the same time, if the Treaty were fulfilled, today the situation would be radically different in favor of Russia, than today: would small stunted Turkeyrather than the second strongest country in Europe.

    But thanks to the anti-Russian forces of the Swiss bald foreign tourists, the eternal Turkish enemy of Russia (with no one Russia had so many wars as with him), Russian weapons, GOLD, lands, advisers, and the enemy were transferred and became what he is. It's hard to imagine greater stupidity and betrayal of Russia's interests

    Turkey was supplied with everything necessary at a time when in Russia, thanks to the "wise leadership" of the bald ones, MILLIONS of people were dying of hunger.

    And today, thanks to this, thousands of international terrorists deployed by Turkey from Syria, Afgagn, are killing and fighting a few kilometers from the Russian border, Turkey dreams and promotes the idea of ​​the Great Turan, in which there is a mass of Russian lands.

    And the whole world around Turkey is on fire, trying to protect itself from its impudent expansion: Syria, Libya, Greece, Iraq, Cyprus, Armenia

    No one disputed the point that if Turkey had not been armed, then the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles were under the control of the British (like Gibraltar). And what would be the status of the Black Sea? and Who would control the straits ?. At that time, the Entente and other Western countries, together with the Dashnak Armenia and Menshevik Georgia, were more dangerous for the new (Soviet) Russia, and no one expected that in 15-20 years, and even more so 70, the Russian Federation would be left without a part of the lands that had become Russian in the 18th - early 20th century.
  12. border
    border 7 October 2020 14: 12
    -1
    Quote: Olgovich
    Quote: apro
    As I understand it, the Armenians, having gained independence from the Russians, were decided by the Entente seize territories in Turkey.


    How can you "capture" ... YOUR territories, recognized as such by the whole world (see the Treaty of Sevres) ?!

    At the same time, if the Treaty were fulfilled, today the situation would be radically different in favor of Russia, than today: would small stunted Turkeyrather than the second strongest country in Europe.

    But thanks to the anti-Russian forces of the Swiss bald foreign tourists, the eternal Turkish enemy of Russia (with no one Russia had so many wars as with him), Russian weapons, GOLD, lands, advisers, and the enemy were transferred and became what he is. It's hard to imagine greater stupidity and betrayal of Russia's interests

    Turkey was supplied with everything necessary at a time when in Russia, thanks to the "wise leadership" of the bald ones, MILLIONS of people were dying of hunger.

    And today, thanks to this, thousands of international terrorists deployed by Turkey from Syria, Afgagn, are killing and fighting a few kilometers from the Russian border, Turkey dreams and promotes the idea of ​​the Great Turan, in which there is a mass of Russian lands.

    And the whole world around Turkey is on fire, trying to protect itself from its impudent expansion: Syria, Libya, Greece, Iraq, Cyprus, Armenia

    No one disputed the point that if Turkey had not been armed, then the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles were under the control of the British (like Gibraltar). And what would be the status of the Black Sea? and Who would control the straits ?. At that time, the Entente and other Western countries, together with the Dashnak Armenia and Menshevik Georgia, were more dangerous for the new (Soviet) Russia, and no one expected that in 15-20 years, and even more so 70, the Russian Federation would be left without a part of the lands that had become Russian in the 18th - early 20th century.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 7 October 2020 15: 04
      -2
      this is such a joke - to sculpt one comment three times?
      1. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 7 October 2020 15: 11
        +1
        Today the site is buggy, you write a comment - it won't be sent, and then - bam - and five comments at once
    2. Andrey Novoseltsev
      Andrey Novoseltsev 27 November 2020 23: 08
      0
      You're right, it's all dirty prapogondon. He can't tell who attacked whom
  13. Seal
    Seal 7 October 2020 14: 22
    -1
    All in two months of fighting, 200-250 thousand civilians were killed.
    I wonder if the author has confirmation of these figures? And how many of them are who? Especially when you consider that after 1915 there were only a few Christians left there.
  14. Pashhenko Nikolay
    Pashhenko Nikolay 7 October 2020 18: 52
    0
    Armenia counted on the support of the Entente, first of all the United States. Some kind of déjà vu Although with Samsonov you always have to keep your ears on top of your head.
    1. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 7 October 2020 21: 36
      0
      In this case, he is right. After Wilson "awarded" a large part of historical Western Armenia to the Armenian Republic, its leadership (Dashnaks) hoped that the United States and the Entente as a whole would help them in the confrontation with the Kemalists.
      But they didn't help. US Congress voted against the adoption of the mandate for Armenia
  15. Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 7 October 2020 21: 27
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    Brest 1918 instead of Berlin 45 already in 1918

    It's good to talk about the "lost victories of the Russian Empire" on the couch at home))
    But the Oryol, Ryazan and Vyatka peasants did not need Berlin in 1918. neither Lvov nor Constantinople. He needed land in his village
  16. Andrey Novoseltsev
    Andrey Novoseltsev 27 November 2020 23: 04
    0
    The article is biased and distorts the essence of historical events. In the first, the Dashnaks were never considered nationalists. In the second, the Dashnaks fully understood the role of Russia and always tried to maintain a relationship even with Soviet Russia. What can not be said about the Georgian Mensheviks and pro-Turkish Musavatists in whom as well as the Turks there was the blood of the peaceful Armenian population of Baku and Shushi. in the third, the role of Bolshevik Russia is very huge in the salvation of the Turkish state and its strengthening, which led to the defeat of the brotherly spirit of both Greeks and Armenians. Or rather, this is pure betrayal. Well, Armenia was also divided between Turkey .Russia and newly created Azerbaijan
  17. Smteh
    Smteh 30 November 2020 21: 04
    0
    The most surprising thing in this is that an ordinary Armenian as well as an ordinary Azerbaijani would never even think of fighting for the spheres of influence in Karabakh. This is about the same as for me, a Russian person, to think that I’m dreaming and see how to exert my influence in Karabakh. We, ordinary people, have nothing to share. But, behold, such an infection as "the powers that be" are always little ... little influence, little money, and the common people in this game of theirs is just a bargaining chip. So, ordinary people are dying in the struggle for other people's interests. Guys, maybe enough with this bacchanalia ??? Let's build a Creative Society. A society where every human life is valuable. Where human life is the most valuable asset of this Society. Not the sphere of influence of some presumptuous egoist from power, but Human Life! After all, then everything falls into place. Let's build together a normal, human society - a Society without wars for the spheres of influence of individual political "not people". I am very sympathetic to the Creative Society project based on the ALLATRA international public movement. To be honest, I have never seen anything better on the Internet.