Military Review

In the US press: The fact of the destruction of dozens of tanks in Karabakh in a short period of time may indicate that the time of tanks has passed

233
In the US press: The fact of the destruction of dozens of tanks in Karabakh in a short period of time may indicate that the time of tanks has passed

Today, almost all over the world they are watching how the events in Nagorno-Karabakh are unfolding. The American press also draws attention to the armed conflict.


An article was published in The National Interest, which examines the role of armored vehicles in the conflict that flared up with renewed vigor between Armenia and Azerbaijan. The author cites statistics of the parties regarding losses in tanks and other types of armored vehicles. The Ministry of Defense of Armenia and the unrecognized Nagorno-Karabakh Republic announced that they destroyed 137 tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers of Azerbaijani troops in a week. In turn, Azerbaijan talks about the destruction of 130 tanks and other armored vehicles of the enemy.

Some of them were hit by an ATGM, some were blown up by installed mines, some were destroyed by cannon artillery, some were destroyed using UAVs.

In an American media article:

The fact that dozens of tanks in Karabakh were destroyed in a short time may indicate that the day of the tank is over - that such a platform could be too vulnerable to aircraft and attack drones.


However, the author immediately adds that there is a different opinion. It consists in the fact that the point is not at all in tanks, but in the failure of tactical training.
NI writes that in order to use tanks in the Caucasus, "a special approach is needed." From the article:

But the problem is that the command of Armenia and Azerbaijan, apparently, cannot understand this in any way.


The author notes that if in some armies (for example, in the British) a decision is made to reduce the number of tanks in the troops, then in others (for example, in the Indian) the number of tanks is increased. This indicates that different countries have different approaches. Some are sure that it is precisely the tactical principles of using tanks and other types of armored vehicles that are important in order to achieve success, and not turn armored vehicles on the battlefield into burning matches. Others believe that the time of tanks is over.
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  1. _Ugene_
    _Ugene_ 6 October 2020 14: 15
    42
    The fact of the destruction of dozens of tanks in Karabakh in a short time may indicate that
    that the time has come for KAZ with complete overlap of the hemisphere, maybe at least this example will finally make us understand this
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 6 October 2020 14: 23
      48
      tanks on both sides destroyed nearly three hundred as stated. and the frames are the same, a maximum of a dozen tanks from different angles. but there should be a whole "prokhorovka". Where?
      1. Piramidon
        Piramidon 6 October 2020 15: 07
        +3
        Quote: Aerodrome
        tanks on both sides, nearly three hundred destroyed as stated.

        I wonder how many of them were in service on each side? It seems that neither one nor the other produces armored vehicles.
        1. bistrov.
          bistrov. 6 October 2020 15: 49
          +1
          Quote: Piramidon
          how many of them were in total in service with each side?

          Armenia -110. Azerbaijan -570.
          1. CSKA
            CSKA 6 October 2020 17: 47
            +2
            Quote: bistrov.
            Armenia -110

            Where does the figure come from?
          2. RUSS
            RUSS 6 October 2020 21: 27
            +3
            Quote: bistrov.
            Quote: Piramidon
            how many of them were in total in service with each side?

            Armenia -110. Azerbaijan -570.

            Perhaps the Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh, not Armenia?
      2. Alf
        Alf 6 October 2020 15: 21
        +5
        Quote: Aerodrome
        tanks on both sides destroyed nearly three hundred as stated. and the frames are the same, a maximum of a dozen tanks from different angles. but there should be a whole "prokhorovka". Where?

        Rudel happily claps her hands - there are followers ..
        1. meandr51
          meandr51 7 October 2020 08: 41
          +1
          Do you mean destruction by the method of unbridled fantasy?
      3. Rostislav Prokopenko
        Rostislav Prokopenko 6 October 2020 16: 01
        +5
        Yeah, almost 9 (!) Tank regiments of standard equipment laughing
        1. Hypertension
          Hypertension 6 October 2020 20: 34
          +1
          Quote: Rostislav Prokopenko
          Yeah, almost 9 (!) Tank regiments of standard equipment

          Three hundred is 9 regiments? Battalions you mean?
          And the time of tanks such as the T-72 is really running out. KAZ, an armored capsule, an uninhabited tower (everything is like that of the Armata) is what can give tanks the right to exist.
          1. Dodikson
            Dodikson 7 October 2020 11: 12
            +5
            a tank company is an emnip of 10 tanks, a battalion of 31 tanks. regiment of 94 tanks.
            the tank battalion of the motorized rifle brigade has more tanks. there are already 13 tanks in the company, 40 in the battalion.
      4. Mwg
        Mwg 6 October 2020 18: 18
        +4
        Americans display traditional naive credulity when they accept the tales of the parties to the conflict at face value. A comment to the Americans of Zadornov comes to mind. And Lavrov's phrase too
        1. KOJIXO3HuK
          KOJIXO3HuK 7 October 2020 16: 46
          +1
          For censorship, I propose to introduce the phraseological unit "Zadornov-Lavrov commentary." Who will write the article on Lurka?
    2. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 6 October 2020 14: 25
      56
      KAZ will not save you from stupidity. watch all videos. tanks are almost static targets. there is no air defense organization and concealment there is no resistance to guidance. in fact, tanks are used as in the fight against the bearded as a simple firing point. in such an open area, it's epic folly. even if on the first day it was a surprise, in the following days the command was obliged to correct it.
      1. _Ugene_
        _Ugene_ 6 October 2020 14: 28
        +6
        and for all this stupidity, KAZ would radically change the situation, to such an extent that after a series of unsuccessful attempts, they would completely refuse to attack tanks in such a way, what's the point of wasting ammunition?
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 6 October 2020 14: 35
          +5
          Quote: _Ugene_
          and with all this stupidity, KAZ would radically change the situation

          I do not think.
          KAZ from stupidity really won't help.

          You can push it through and disable its elements (for example, by combining artillery shelling from PDO to "shard" or shells with GGE and the use of guided ammunition and ATGM)
          1. _Ugene_
            _Ugene_ 6 October 2020 18: 04
            +5
            for example, by combining artillery shelling with PDO on "splinter" or shells with GGE and the use of guided ammunition and ATGM
            can you imagine how many hemorrhoids and attempts to disable it, how much it complicates the process, how much time it will give the crew? and now they shoot like in a shooting range
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 6 October 2020 18: 12
              +4
              Quote: _Ugene_
              can you imagine how many hemorrhoids and attempts to disable it, how much it complicates the process, how much time it will give the crew?

              Actually, this is a standard scenario since the days of the USSR. And there is nothing particularly complicated there.

              Quote: _Ugene_
              and now they shoot like in a shooting range

              And they will shoot from KAZ. For example, shooting with a "doublet"
              KAZ is not a wunderwaffe.
              1. _Ugene_
                _Ugene_ 6 October 2020 18: 30
                -9
                Actually, this is a standard scenario since the days of the USSR. And there is nothing particularly complicated there. And they will shoot from KAZ. For example, shooting with a "doublet"
                KAZ is not a wunderwaffe.
                aha, is there any practical confirmation of this chatter? at least one tank, for example with a trophy, so destroyed? do not repeat the silly chatter, is it really incomprehensible what to shoot like in a shooting range and trying to overcome the KAZ is not the same thing at all, although as I already wrote, you are right, why are all these difficulties, we have a lot of tanks in reserve, and women still give birth to tankers
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 6 October 2020 18: 34
                  +7
                  Quote: _Ugene_
                  aha, is there any practical confirmation of this chatter?

                  Of course have. This "chatter" is described in black and white in the combat manuals.

                  Quote: _Ugene_
                  at least one tank, for example with a trophy, so destroyed?

                  "At least one tank with a trophy, for example" fought with a normal army?
                  And Hamas, excuse me, has no artillery divisions.

                  Quote: _Ugene_
                  why all these difficulties

                  These are not "complications", this is normal standard practice. This is the only way to act, regardless of whether the enemy has a KAZ or not.
                  1. _Ugene_
                    _Ugene_ 6 October 2020 18: 39
                    -10 qualifying.
                    everything is clear, there is no evidence, but we will persist like parrots to repeat any heresy about doublets and so on, while not forgetting to refer to "normal standard practice", and where is this practice, if "At least one tank with a trophy, for example" did not fight a normal army ? you have a dispute with only one purpose - to prove that you are right
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 6 October 2020 18: 42
                      10
                      Quote: _Ugene_
                      everything is clear, there is no confirmation

                      Everything is clear, they did not read the combat manuals ...

                      Quote: _Ugene_
                      but we will persistently repeat all heresy like parrots

                      And I have heard that there is no practical evidence of the effectiveness of ICBMs either. Fortunately.

                      Quote: _Ugene_
                      do not forget to refer to "normal standard practice" and where is this practice

                      I repeat, in the combat manuals.
                      And the "practice" is practiced twice a year. Practically. On company and battalion technical units
                      It is a pity that you do not even know this.
                      1. _Ugene_
                        _Ugene_ 6 October 2020 18: 46
                        -9
                        Are you serious? I ask you about the practical application of the methods of overcoming the KAZ indicated by you, and you keep telling me that this is "described in the combat manuals", is this a confirmed destruction of a tank with KAZ? this is some kind of assumption that has nothing to do with reality
                        and can you quote how the "combat manuals" describe the standard overcoming of kaz?
                      2. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 6 October 2020 18: 55
                        +9
                        Quote: _Ugene_
                        Are you serious?

                        Absolutely.
                        There is such a thing in the Regulations, artillery reflection of an attack. In the course of which, among other things, the NZO and PZO are set at one or more boundaries.

                        Even if we take the simplest thing for the enemy - NZO. 50 meters per gun. If you think that the KAZ elements placed on the armor will not suffer from the fragmentation action of these shells, then congratulations, you are a science fiction writer.
                        About PZO - generally keep quiet.

                        And this issue is worked out every six months at company and battalion technical units without fail.
                      3. _Ugene_
                        _Ugene_ 6 October 2020 19: 01
                        -6
                        option 1 - shooting a tank like in a shooting range
                        Option 2 - the artillery must hit moving targets, someone must direct it, correct it, while the artillery is obviously not as mobile as the tank, it is extremely vulnerable itself, then you still need to understand whether the shelling led to the desired result or the KAZ is still working, but If the artillery itself is destroyed by the same kamikaze drones, then everything, let us surrender?
                      4. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 6 October 2020 19: 06
                        +7
                        Quote: _Ugene_
                        option 2 - the artillery must hit moving targets, someone must direct it, correct it

                        In fact, they learned to do it back in the First World War.

                        Quote: _Ugene_
                        and if the artillery itself is destroyed by the same kamikaze drones,

                        As a result of the UN ban on the use of air defense systems? Will it now be considered a crime against humanity? Will strikes on UAV control centers be equated to genocide?
                      5. _Ugene_
                        _Ugene_ 6 October 2020 19: 10
                        -5
                        Why do we need armored vehicles at all? it is possible, in your style, to come up with a hundred excuses for how you can fight without it and cope perfectly well, and the main argument will be - "so it is written in the charter", is it not obvious that KAZ significantly increases the survivability of a tank?
                      6. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 6 October 2020 20: 54
                        +8
                        Quote: _Ugene_
                        Isn't it obvious that KAZ significantly increases the survivability of the tank?

                        Of course it does. Probability.
                        But only when used correctly.

                        If you intend to put a tank with a KAZ in a trench without any disguise and use it as a bunker, which the Armenians like to do since 2016, then it will definitely be destroyed. And no KAZ will help.
  • Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 7 October 2020 06: 10
    0
    Quote: Spade
    Quote: _Ugene_
    and with all this stupidity, KAZ would radically change the situation

    I do not think.
    KAZ from stupidity really won't help.

    You can push it through and disable its elements (for example, by combining artillery shelling from PDO to "shard" or shells with GGE and the use of guided ammunition and ATGM)

    At least from single drones to protect
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 9 October 2020 10: 29
      0
      Quote: Pilat2009
      At least from single drones to protect

      This is definitely not a job for KAZ.

      Here group funds are needed, plus disguise.
  • carstorm 11
    carstorm 11 6 October 2020 14: 41
    +8
    would not change. just to destroy the target, the enemy will use other variations to overcome it. if reconnaissance works correctly, then the factor of the presence of KAZ on the equipment will at least affect the planning of attacks. KAZ is an opportunity to withstand the first blow and not a panacea for invulnerability. of course it's gorgeous when one ammunition destroys the target. but nothing prevents you from combining means of destruction and increasing their number. additional reconnaissance after the first use and not one but three will fly in them, for example, overloading its capabilities. tanks are in the open. motionless. stupidly target. organize false firing points. disguise of real apparently religion does not allow. and these are the minimum actions that the commanders of those units that are involved in the battle are required to do.
    1. _Ugene_
      _Ugene_ 6 October 2020 18: 07
      -13 qualifying.
      KAZ is an opportunity to withstand the first blow and not a panacea for invulnerability.
      did not know that the KAZ is disposable, and about the "overload" is idle speculation, many times the Israeli trophy was overloaded? but in general you are right, why such difficulties, we have a lot of tanks in reserve, and women still give birth to tankers
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 6 October 2020 18: 36
        +9
        Quote: _Ugene_
        I didn’t know that KAZ was disposable, and about "overloading" this idle speculation,

        laughing laughing laughing laughing
        Two "Cornets" fly into one "Merkava" from one set. KAZ available. Guess at once what will happen to the tank.
        1. Vitaly gusin
          Vitaly gusin 6 October 2020 22: 03
          -5
          Quote: Spade
          Two "Cornets" fly into one "Merkava" from one set. KAZ available. Guess at once what will happen to the tank.

          Your question remained unanswered
          In short, he has more chances to continue the battle, which is not to say about the T-14 (which is not in the troops)
          And now in more detail.
          The site "VPK News" writes
          "Experts of the American analytical magazine The National Interest conducted a thorough comparative analysis of two tanks - the Israeli Merkava IV and the Russian T-14" Armata "
          Merkava IV is excellent carequipped with the Trophy Active Defense System (APS), the Tzayad battlefield control system and enhanced survivability abilities such as modular armor.

          The Merkava IV, revolutionary in the form of the Elbit Iron Vision helmet display system, which will allow crew members to "see" the world outside the tank through a series of external cameras without opening the vehicle hatches.
          The system, which provides unparalleled situational awareness, was tested in 2017. Israel was the first to create such technology
          There is no such thing in Russian tanks yet. "


          Well, now about KAZ Trophy - this is a breakthrough system not only in the operational sense, but also as a technological achievement. During Operation Protective Edge Trophy, it repelled numerous anti-tank missile attacks on tanks and armored personnel carriers of the Israel Defense Forces. As a result, the Trophy changed the image of the battlefield and saved the lives of countless Israeli soldiers. Thus, in November 2016 it was announced that that all new armored personnel carriers Merkava IV and Namer will be equipped with Trophy APS system.
          That's when it will be with all the tanks in the Russian army, then your joke will be appropriate.
          Trophy, winner of the Israel Defense Award in 2014, is considered one of the most effective active defense systems in existence today. The US Army decided to purchase the Trophy in order to install it on the Abrams MBT operated by four brigades.
          1. carstorm 11
            carstorm 11 7 October 2020 00: 19
            +2
            and who says it's a bad car? it's just that you have a usual scenario of an ordinary battle with equal and developed troops, let's say not in the desert where the merkava works with a bang, but for example, let's say somewhere in our theater of operations. where aviation and MLRS work. where there are helicopters with anti-tank systems and other means. and all these pluses simply flow into minus. comparing one tank to another is nonsense. 80 percent of all destroyed tanks in recent wars are aviation artillery and anti-tank systems. with what of this did the Merkava meet to praise her so? this machine is ideal for fighting popuas and illiterate armies. meeting with any serious force will discourage the desire to say so. this applies to us and our cars too. comparison can be more or less objective only when everything is taken into account. a division of shiloks will blow away all attachments from them in a few seconds. will blind and destroy everything that only looks out. Do you want to compare them too?)
            1. Pilat2009
              Pilat2009 7 October 2020 06: 56
              0
              Quote: carstorm 11
              and who says it's a bad car? it's just that you have a usual scenario of an ordinary battle with equal and developed troops, let's say not in the desert where the merkava works with a bang, but for example, let's say somewhere in our theater of operations. where aviation and MLRS work. where there are helicopters with anti-tank systems and other means. and all these pluses simply flow into minus. comparing one tank to another is nonsense. 80 percent of all destroyed tanks in recent wars are aviation artillery and anti-tank systems. with what of this did the Merkava meet to praise her so? this machine is ideal for fighting popuas and illiterate armies. meeting with any serious force will discourage the desire to say so. this applies to us and our cars too. comparison can be more or less objective only when everything is taken into account. a division of shiloks will blow away all attachments from them in a few seconds. will blind and destroy everything that only looks out. Do you want to compare them too?)

              Collecting a battalion of shilok is from the realm of fantasy. For some reason, you do not take into account that they will be discovered and gouged by MLRS kilometers from 100
              In general, now there are completely different air defense systems, even in comparison with Iraq. And the sooner we understand this, the less losses will be. The economy of the Ministry of Defense on Kaz will go sideways sooner or later. It is necessary to introduce fundamentally new air defense systems. All the Soviet past in the form of "wasps" is time scrapped
              1. carstorm 11
                carstorm 11 7 October 2020 07: 26
                0
                here. then you must first find out. went the factors that are in question) this is a simple way to lead to a simple thought-consideration of all factors))) opened two-detection and operation of RZSO. that there is an enemy)
            2. Vitaly gusin
              Vitaly gusin 7 October 2020 07: 16
              0
              Quote: carstorm 11
              Merkava met to praise her like that? this machine is ideal for fighting popuas and illiterate armies. meeting with any serious force will discourage the hunt

              Israel fought three wars, with Syria and two with Egypt, not only equipped with the most modern weapons at that time, in unlimited quantities, and not only by Soviet advisers, but also by military units. The Israeli army was located 40 km from Damascus and 60 km from Cairo. And only through the joint efforts of the USSR and the United States was it possible to stop the capture of these cities. And it took from 6 to 20 days.
              War in Afghanistan 9 years to no avail in Syria 5 years
              Quote: carstorm 11
              this machine is ideal for fighting popuas and illiterate armies.

              In the Yom Kippur War, not only various Arab countries from Asia and Africa took an active part, but also the armed forces of the countries of the Socialist camp. Soviet officers took part in hostilities on the side of Syria, being with the commanders of divisions, brigades, individual regiments, chiefs of staff and combat arms, as well as with senior officers of support and supply services.
              The largest tank battle since World War II... Forces and means of the parties:
              Israel: 400 soldiers, most of them reservists. 2100 tanks. 3000 armored personnel carriers. 570 artillery barrels of more than 100 mm caliber, 476 combat aircraft.

              Arab countries that took part in the war (Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, etc.): about a million soldiers. 5400 tanks. 4000 armored vehicles. 3100 artillery barrels of more than 100 mm caliber 1646 combat aircraft. 150 MLRS installations. 104 ships of the Navy.
              Killed in 18 days:
              Israel: 2586
              Arabs: approx. 20 thousand (exact losses were not disclosed).
              Lost in 18 days:
              Israel: 102 aircraft, 407 tanks (non-recoverable), 25 artillery barrels
              Arabs: 555 aircraft, 2250 tanks, 570 artillery barrels
              In the USSR, the study of war led to a revolution in the operational thinking of the Soviet command. The massive tank breakthrough of the defensive lines was replaced by the idea of ​​preliminary probing the defense with attacks by motorized riflemen along the entire length of the contact line. Having thus revealed the weaknesses, they were attacked with the full might of the Soviet tank reserves. This transformation was called the "tactical revolution" of Soviet military doctrine.
              But in 1982, in the same Syria, again this theory was defeated.
              The disaster in the Bekaa valley made a shock impression on the leadership of the USSR. Already in September 1982. In Moscow, a meeting was held in the Central Committee of the CPSU, dedicated to the analysis of the battles that took place in Lebanon, where the command of the Soviet Army and the leaders of the military-industrial complex were summoned to the "carpet". They had to answer for the failed unpreparedness of Soviet weapons for modern warfare. At the same time, following the results of this "debriefing", a resolution was adopted by the Central Committee of the CPSU and the Council of Ministers of the USSR. However, apparently, no proper conclusions were drawn from the disaster in Lebanon ...
              NEXT TIME WRITE CAREFULLY ABOUT POISES!
              1. carstorm 11
                carstorm 11 7 October 2020 07: 30
                +6
                now it remains to find out what has to do with the Merkava you are talking about) I don't need to talk about these wars. I wrote works on tactics on them. and my dad has never been an advisor. graduated from Kazan. I am Good. plus the academy for both. comparing the war in Afghanistan and Syria with the Israeli wars is the height of amateurism.
                1. Vitaly gusin
                  Vitaly gusin 7 October 2020 20: 58
                  0
                  Quote: carstorm 11
                  I wrote works on tactics on them. and my dad has never been an advisor. graduated from Kazan. I am Good. plus the academy for both. comparing the war in Afghanistan and Syria with the Israeli wars is the height of amateurism.

                  If so, then you know how many weapons and military the USSR supplied for these wars, and you also know the result.
                  AND THE WAR IS EVERYWHERE, THE WAR IS DIE ON IT. SOME WIN, OTHERS LOSE. AND THIRD MAKE POLITICS AND MONEY FOR THIS.
                2. carstorm 11
                  carstorm 11 7 October 2020 22: 56
                  +1
                  wars are different in nature for a variety of reasons. the most important of which is the fulfillment of the assigned tasks. in Afghanistan, all tasks were completed. in Syria, the main ones are also implemented. at the same time, in Syria, not a war, but assistance in it to a third party with minimal means. what is similar to the wars that Israel fought?
                3. Vitaly gusin
                  Vitaly gusin 8 October 2020 07: 56
                  -1
                  Quote: carstorm 11
                  what is similar to the wars that Israel fought?

                  I started from the end of the sentence. the beginning refers to propaganda.
                  It doesn't look like it at all. Israel defended its country from destruction, and the USSR defended its ambitions.
                  And in Syria, they covered themselves with the spread of terrorism into Russian territory. And then we all see what is happening there and will continue for a long time until there is a change in the country's leadership.
                4. carstorm 11
                  carstorm 11 8 October 2020 11: 45
                  0
                  I was always purple on Israel. I am not a supporter or opponent of this state. that's why I don't go into topics about him. protection against destruction agree. but Syria is also saved from this. and they just got help. and agree everything worked out. change of leadership will not decide anything from the word at all. bearded from there will not leave themselves who would not be at the helm. strange not to understand. and Afghanistan is not ambition at all, but geopolitics. The states have been sitting in Afghanistan for many years. why and for what to me personally is still not very clear. because, unlike the USSR, the tasks are covered in fog
                5. Vitaly gusin
                  Vitaly gusin 8 October 2020 19: 33
                  0
                  Quote: carstorm 11
                  and agree everything worked out. change of leadership will not decide anything from the word at all.

                  No, I do not agree.
                  With the change of Asda, the number of "bearded" ones will be much smaller. All troops opposing Assad will cease resistance and will deal with the real beards themselves. The Russian leadership has already understood this and the 8th brigade opposing Assad controls the south of Syria and is supported by Russia.
                6. carstorm 11
                  carstorm 11 9 October 2020 01: 58
                  -2
                  yes, of course) they are there for the idea and not for sponsorship) the states in Afghanistan pumped money and weapons to the mujahideen. the USSR left and they?) as they were and remained. and whatever changes in power they don't care about.
                7. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 9 October 2020 10: 36
                  -1
                  Quote: Vitaly Gusin
                  With the change of Asda, the number of "bearded" ones will be much smaller.

                  laughing laughing laughing
                  Yeah ... and ponies also eat rainbows and poop butterflies ..

                  Libya is a prime example of what will happen when Assad "leaves".
    2. MKPU-115
      MKPU-115 7 October 2020 09: 46
      +4
      Quote: Vitaly Gusin
      The Israeli army was located 40 km from Damascus and 60 km from Cairo.

      Well, yes, and the Nazis in 1941 were 28 km from Moscow.
      Your hint is clear :)
      1. Vitaly gusin
        Vitaly gusin 7 October 2020 18: 36
        0
        Quote: MKPU-115
        Well, yes, and the Nazis in 1941 were 28 km from Moscow.

        Yes, they suddenly attacked at 4:00 in the morning on a day off, they were near Moscow and the whole world knows how it ended.
        Syria and Egypt suddenly attacked on the Day of Judgment. when the radio, telephone, transport did not work and was attacked at 2:00 pm, when the sun was in the south and blinded Israeli pilots in the eyes. Progressed very far and the whole world knows how it ended.
        Well, what is the difference and there and there aggression and the corresponding response. The difference is that the Red Army entered Berlin, and Israel was stopped by the USSR and the United States.
        Quote: MKPU-115
        Your hint is clear :)

        There is no hint, this is a story that you don’t know or pretend that you don’t know, but that will not change it.
      2. MKPU-115
        MKPU-115 7 October 2020 18: 56
        -1
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        The difference is that the Red Army entered Berlin, and Israel was stopped by the USSR and the United States.

        Well, now you understand what is the difference between Russia and Israel? The United States can ban you, but Russia cannot.
      3. Vitaly gusin
        Vitaly gusin 8 October 2020 07: 42
        +1
        Quote: MKPU-115
        The United States can ban you, but Russia cannot.

        Well then I'll continue
        Leonid Brezhnev announced the increased combat readiness of 7 divisions of the Soviet airborne troops. In response, the United States issued a nuclear alert.
        Israel could not be the cause of the nuclear war and the Israeli forces stopped the offensive and on October 25 the state of high alert in the Soviet divisions and the American nuclear forces was canceled.
      4. MKPU-115
        MKPU-115 8 October 2020 10: 47
        -1
        So I say, Israel pissed off, but only just 7 divisions of the USSR Airborne Forces.
        Although by and large everyone knows, one Strategic Missile Forces missile, one country as large as Israel, minus forever. But we are not Anglo-Saxons to bomb cities with nuclear weapons, therefore they use this "weakness", but still they are afraid.
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        Israel could not be the cause of a nuclear war

        In Russian, they did it (they did it right), so Crimea is again a part of Russia, and in Israel this war with the Arab world will continue FOREVER.
      5. Vitaly gusin
        Vitaly gusin 8 October 2020 20: 42
        0
        Quote: MKPU-115
        So I say Israel pissed, but only just 7 divisions of the USSR Airborne Forces.

        On August 1, 1970, Air Force Commander of the USSR Marshal Pavel Kutakhov flew to Cairo. He ordered an investigation into the circumstances of the armed clash with the enemy. On August 2, Kutakhov ordered the cessation of flights of Soviet pilots in the Suez Canal zone. Marshall forbade his pilots to engage in battle with Israeli fighters. The leadership of the USSR notified the Egyptian side that it could no longer render assistance to the Egyptian government in ensuring the inviolability of Egyptian air borders.
        A group of Soviet warships with a landing party on board was sent to the shores of Egypt. It was supposed to land in Port Said, organize the defense of this city and prevent it from being captured by Israeli troops until the arrival of an airborne division from the USSR. However, when the squadron entered Port Said, an order was received to cancel the operation.
        US Secretary of State and National Security Adviser to the US President Henry Kissinger arrived in Moscow. From October 20 to October 22, he negotiated with the Soviet side, as a result of which a draft UN Security Council resolution was drawn up, adopted on October 22, number 338. The resolution provided for an immediate ceasefire and all hostilities with a halt of troops in their positions on October 22; the belligerent states were asked to "begin immediately after the ceasefire the practical implementation of Security Council resolution 242 (1967) of November 22, 1967 in all its parts." According to some sources, Egypt and Israel on October 22 accepted the terms of the Resolution, Syria, Iraq, and, practically, Jordan did not. According to others, Egypt adopted a resolution Israel continued fighting.
        In modern Russian, put the BOLT!
        1982 LIVESIAN WAR
        The Israeli victory marked and technically lagged behind Soviet weapons, which were significantly inferior to Israeli and American weapons and military technologies, and also showed all the viciousness of Soviet tactics of air warfare and the construction of air defense systems (which is still relevant today)
        The disaster in the Bekaa valley made a shock impression on the leadership of the USSR. Already in September 1982. In Moscow, a meeting was held in the Central Committee of the CPSU, dedicated to the analysis of the battles that took place in Lebanon, where the command of the Soviet Army and the leaders of the military-industrial complex were summoned to the "carpet". They had to answer for the failed unpreparedness of Soviet weapons for modern warfare. At the same time, following the results of this "debriefing", a resolution was adopted by the Central Committee of the CPSU and the Council of Ministers of the USSR. However, apparently, no proper conclusions were drawn from the disaster in Lebanon ...

        THIS IS THE HISTORY AND FACTS WHICH YOU WILL NOT CHANGE WITH THE HELP OF INSURANCE!
      6. MKPU-115
        MKPU-115 8 October 2020 23: 59
        -2
        Blessed is he who believes)
        The disaster in the Bekaa Valley - we thoroughly studied it, in a word, fat-ass Arabs, instead of changing positions, waited for them to be covered.
        Of 4 couples, 8 hours, 1 hour of Russian choice mate addressed to the Arabs and the lecture was held under the title - HOW NOT TO DO.
        Israel has no worthy adversary, no .... and it relaxes.
      7. Vitaly gusin
        Vitaly gusin 9 October 2020 15: 41
        +1
        Quote: MKPU-115
        The disaster in the Bekaa Valley - we studied it thoroughly

        We all learned a little bit of something and somehow(C)
        “Until now, few people in our country know that one of the main reasons for the perestroika was the defeat that Israeli aviation carried out on the Syrian air defense system in the Lebanese Bekaa valley on June 9-10, 1982. The system was, of course, one hundred percent Soviet, and the latest at that time. It was impossible to attribute the catastrophe to the usual incapacity of the Arabs: even the Israelis admitted that the Syrians fought this time well, in addition, Soviet instructors were sitting next to the Syrians in the booths of the destroyed air defense systems. It’s just that the enemy fought in a new way, and we fought in the old way. ” (Alexander Khramchikhin. Military construction in Russia. "Banner" 2005, №12).

        Please read the first part. Lebanon.
        https://trcvr.ru/2017/09/13/rjeb-v-vojnah-i-vooruzhennyh-konfliktah-9/

        http://www.vko.ru/voyny-i-konflikty/mir-galilee-razgrom-dlya-rtv
        BUGS AND THEIR CAUSES
        The main reasons for the lack of effectiveness in the combat use of the Syrian radio-technical grouping were the following:

        - low individual noise immunity of radar facilities;

        - the radar field (tri-band) created by the indicated means taking into account the geographic features of the combat area (its limited size) was not able to "hold the blow" at such high levels of spectral density of the interference power created by the Israeli side, although the radio units equipped with our equipment, did everything possible to carry out a combat mission;

        - despite the timely warning of the command of the Air Force and Air Defense of Syria about the need to increase the readiness of the troops subordinate to it for action in conditions of strong interference, no proper measures were taken;

        - the suppression and destruction of ground and air suppliers of interference were not made;

        - the personnel of the Syrian air defense forces have not yet formed a correct understanding of the fundamentals of the combat use of groups of radio technical troops;

        - The combat formations of units and subunits were distinguished by low survivability and poor masking. The positions of the radar stations were insufficiently equipped in engineering terms. Spare and false positions were absent;

        - issues of a flexible combination of centralized and decentralized alerts have not been worked out;

        - the absence of radar facilities even at command posts of air guards (with the exception of one);

        - low level of automation of control over forces and means of radar reconnaissance;

        - insufficient use of maneuverable capabilities of radar facilities;

        - preparation of the entire positional area for maneuverable combat use was unsatisfactory.

        The old truth is that it is too late to take initial training during the war. This must be done in advance.

        The combat use of Syrian radio troops in the Lebanese conflict confirmed the increased role of radio troops in the country's air defense system as the main source of radar information, on which the quality of control depends, and hence the success of combat operations with enemy aircraft and unmanned weapons.
        _________________________________________________________________________________

        Peter Moiseenko
        Colonel, Head of the Tactics Department
        and weapons of radio engineering troops
        Military Academy of Aerospace Defense,
        Candidate of Military Sciences

        Valentin TARASOV
        Major General, Associate Professor, Department of Tactics
        and armament of radio engineering troops of the Military
        Academy of Aerospace Defense,
        Candidate of Military Sciences, Professor
        Published on January 1 in issue # 2 of 2006

        TRY TO REFUTE ALL OF THEM.
      8. MKPU-115
        MKPU-115 9 October 2020 18: 26
        -1
        Too many letters ... didn't even bother to read.
        Brevity is the soul of wit. 1889 = Anton Pavlovich =
      9. Vitaly gusin
        Vitaly gusin 9 October 2020 18: 44
        +1
        Quote: MKPU-115
        Too many letters ...

        I understand you, you are used to listening, I don't think you had to listen to them
        Peter Moiseenko
        Colonel, Head of the Tactics Department
        and weapons of radio engineering troops
        Military Academy of Aerospace Defense,
        Candidate of Military Sciences

        Valentin TARASOV
        Major General, Associate Professor, Department of Tactics
        and armament of radio engineering troops of the Military
        Academy of Aerospace Defense,
        Candidate of Military Sciences, Professor
        Published on January 1 in issue # 2 of 2006
        Therefore, slowly and slowly read them and compare what they TELL you.
        http://www.vko.ru/voyny-i-konflikty/mir-galilee-razgrom-dlya-rtv
        And in this link there is also a map.You cannot claim the truth of the last resort if you do not read your commanders and teachers.
        https://trcvr.ru/2017/09/13/rjeb-v-vojnah-i-vooruzhennyh-konfliktah-9/

        Quote: MKPU-115
        Brevity is the soul of wit. 1889 = Anton Pavlovich =

        AND WITH THIS I AGREE.
        Therefore, the war in 1967 lasted 6 days, and in 1973 18 days, which is called koroТVery, and then for a long, long time, they taught at military academies around the world!
      10. MKPU-115
        MKPU-115 9 October 2020 19: 00
        -1
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        I do not think

        And it would be necessary laughing
      11. Vitaly gusin
        Vitaly gusin 9 October 2020 21: 07
        +1
        Quote: MKPU-115
        And it would be necessary

        I understand you, you are used to listening, I do not think that you had to listen to them
        This technique is used by propagandists (not journalists) on Russian TV, pulling out phrases and a whole sentence, when all the arguments have been exhausted, but you want to save face.
        And yet, read what these experts wrote.
        Peter Moiseenko
        Colonel, Head of the Tactics Department
        and weapons of radio engineering troops
        Military Academy of Aerospace Defense,
        Candidate of Military Sciences

        Valentin TARASOV
        Major General, Associate Professor, Department of Tactics
        and armament of radio engineering troops of the Military
        Academy of Aerospace Defense,
        Candidate of Military Sciences, Professor
        Published on January 1 in issue # 2 of 2006 (then they were still writing the truth)
        The site VC "Military Space Defense"
        Simply, for a general understanding of what really happened.
        You don't have to answer me.
        IT WILL BE MORE HONEST FOR THE PERSON WHO WEARS (OR WEARS) STATUS OFFICER OF THE RUSSIAN ARMY
      12. MKPU-115
        MKPU-115 10 October 2020 00: 40
        -1
        You about Thomas, you, dear, about Erema.
        Israel, a regional state, will not take a step without instructions from Washington.
        All Israel's victories are nothing. It seems they won, but the capital was not taken, the forces of the enemies were not completely defeated - they were banned. You will fight forever - such is the fate.
        And for Russia and the United States - a good training ground, testing and refinement of weapons, development of new tactics, etc., etc.
        It is especially amusing when Benya, with or without reason, runs to bow to the "darkest", and Edik, as soon as he began to pluck his mustache, to Russia, bow to Vladimir Vladimirovich.
        Now there are two branes sitting with him, deciding what to do with them, you know the poem, about two stubborn rams?

        PS Officers are never former.
      13. Vitaly gusin
        Vitaly gusin 10 October 2020 09: 49
        +1
        Quote: MKPU-115
        PS Officers are never former.

        But neither do they use, let alone disseminate propaganda fables.
      14. MKPU-115
        MKPU-115 10 October 2020 10: 02
        -1
        Well, firstly, depending on what kind of VUS.
        And secondly, to judge the sins of others, you strive so hard, start with your own, and you will not get to strangers.
        There is such a Russian proverb: in someone else's eye they saw a speck in their log, they did not notice it.
        But in fact: Israel is an ordinary regional country, with a small territory, limited resources (70% rocky desert), heavily dependent militarily and economically from the United States, and externally politically, including from Russia.
        Therefore, Israel does not and will never have a complete victory over the Arabs.
        Nothing personal - geopolitics.
      15. Vitaly gusin
        Vitaly gusin 10 October 2020 13: 12
        +1
        Quote: MKPU-115
        But in fact: Israel is an ordinary regional country, with a small territory, limited resources (70% rocky desert), heavily dependent militarily and economically from the United States, and externally politically, including from Russia.

        1 You are persistently trying to take me away from the topic and do not want to discuss an article that was published by military experts in a serious edition.
        2 With a small territory and desert, I agree and that's all.
        3 The Arabs did not leap a single war and lost territory, and not who and nothing didn't help them.
        4 US military aid is 1% of Israel's annual budget, for purchases ONLY American weapons and only with permission from Congress.
        5 Well, about dependence on the USSR and modern Russia in general no need to speak.
        From 2013 to the present day, Israel has been destroying KSIR facilities in Syria, despite all the statements of the Russian Foreign Ministry and Defense Ministry. But lately there are no such statements anymore. But there are others.
        Sergei Shoigu and his Israeli colleague Benjamin Gantz discussed by phone prospects for military cooperation and the situation in the Middle East, according to the Russian Ministry of Defense.
        The negotiations confirmed the mutual attitude of the parties to FURTHER development of Russian-Israeli military cooperation"- said in a statement.
        Be honest with me and with yourself!
      16. MKPU-115
        MKPU-115 10 October 2020 14: 24
        -1
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        Sergei Shoigu and his Israeli colleague Benjamin Gantz discussed by phone

        laughing yeah, arguments good
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        From 2013 to the present day, Israel has been destroying KSIR facilities in Syria, despite all the statements of the Russian Foreign Ministry and Defense Ministry.

        What are you waiting for? What would we fit in for Iran or be happy for Israel's success in the media?
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        Be honest with me and with yourself!

        Okay, I will, the more you see for yourself, see above, the more you kill each other, the better, but the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Defense of Russia will express concern about this and throw "firewood" into the fire and warm their hands on it. I hope under the "drovishki" you, dear, guessed what I mean.
        Fight on for health, though there will never be a final victory.
      17. Vitaly gusin
        Vitaly gusin 10 October 2020 18: 07
        +1
        Quote: MKPU-115
        yeah, arguments

        FURTHER development of Russian-Israeli military cooperation
        And what, in your opinion, can be more important than cooperation in all spheres, including military?
        Quote: MKPU-115
        What are you waiting for? What would we fit in for Iran

        No, I do not expect this and it is good that we understood it in time.
        Because earlier there was a hasty statement from the same source.
        Shoigu promised that henceforth in the areas adjacent to Syria over the Mediterranean Sea electronic suppression of satellite navigation, airborne radars and communication systems of military aircraft attacking objects on Syrian territory will be carried out. The Minister expressed his conviction that these measures will cool the "hot heads"
        As you can imagine, circumstances have changed.
        Quote: MKPU-115
        Okay, I will, the more you see for yourself, see above, the more you kill each other, the better

        For the beginning of the offer THANKS!
        We started for health, but ended ... how can you wish people to kill each other?
        Throughout its existence, Israel has sought to make peace with its neighbors.
        He made peace with Egypt and Lebanon in exchange for territory, with the AEO and Bahrain made peace in exchange for peace, in the hope of peace, withdrew his army from South Lebanon and the Gaza Strip.
        And you will kill each other.
      18. MKPU-115
        MKPU-115 10 October 2020 18: 24
        -1
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        Throughout its existence, Israel has sought to make peace with its neighbors.

        I burst into tears, you are just angels with wings, as well as Hamas, Ksir, Ishil ...
        By the way, the UN made public the facts about the connection between ISIS and the Israeli army, and the head of the ISIS is an agent of Mossad.
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        And you will kill each other

        And the more the better drinks
      19. Vitaly gusin
        Vitaly gusin 10 October 2020 18: 45
        +1
        Quote: MKPU-115
        I burst into tears

        Well, don't take everything like that, take care of your health.
        I am giving you real facts, and you are gossiping to me (and also wrote that there are no exes). Mister officer remember how the officers behaved of Russia, not really YOU never wanted to be like them. Or the communists destroyed it all to the root.
        Quote: MKPU-115
        By the way, the UN released facts about the connection between ISIS and the Israeli army

        Well, not exactly the UN, but only Prokhanov's Black-Hundred rag "Tomorrow" was published in 2015, do not see a FALSE. There are no such documents in the UN. Although most of the Arab countries are at the UN and from time to time they put out various dregs, but this was not the case.
        Quote: MKPU-115
        And the more the better

        And this is in the continuation of the same rag. And in general, this is not decent and does not befit what I wrote above.
        BUT IN GENERAL, YOU ARE TRYING TO LEAVE ME FROM THE TOPIC WHICH WE STARTED.
        And I really wanted to discuss that article with YOU, but YOU are always trying to change the topic.
      20. MKPU-115
        MKPU-115 10 October 2020 19: 01
        -1
        Quote: Vitaly Gusin
        I mean, YOU never wanted to be like them.

        And you?
        In terms of cooperation with Israel, I am all for it, you will be sworn partners, you are OTRK LORA, SkyStriker, etc. etc. , we will also throw something to the bearded, so that you do not get bored. Wonderful partnerships good
        Although nothing personal, just business, let them kill each other, as much as possible, isn't it?
      21. Vitaly gusin
        Vitaly gusin 10 October 2020 19: 08
        +1
        Quote: MKPU-115
        let them kill each other

        What are you all, kill and kill is it possible your world is locked on this.
        MY CONDOLENCES.
        This is not my topic.
        BEST WISHES TO YOU!
      22. MKPU-115
        MKPU-115 10 October 2020 19: 08
        -1

        Have a nice one you too.
  • MKPU-115
    MKPU-115 7 October 2020 09: 52
    +1
    Quote: Vitaly Gusin
    NEXT TIME WRITE CAREFULLY ABOUT POISES!

    About these or something, they burn too well
  • MKPU-115
    MKPU-115 7 October 2020 09: 54
    +1
    Quote: Vitaly Gusin
    NEXT TIME WRITE CAREFULLY ABOUT POISES!

    Or about this?
    1. Vitaly gusin
      Vitaly gusin 7 October 2020 18: 46
      0
      Quote: MKPU-115
      Or about this?

      Yes, of course, about that too, this is a war and there are losses in the war, but the main thing is how it ended.

      This is a victory parade, and the tanks are trophy.




      And this, all the trophy in the museum of tank forces.
      Golan Heights, the same trophy.
      The Sinai Peninsula was also a trophy, but received back in exchange for peace.
    2. MKPU-115
      MKPU-115 7 October 2020 18: 52
      -1
      I am aware that I know how, even with the participants in those events I know personally, and they taught us in a real way, and I know which warriors are from the Arabs.
      Israel has no worthy adversary, they overestimate their strength, as the Wehrmacht once overestimated Hitler and attacked the USSR, and before him conquered all of Europe.
    3. Vitaly gusin
      Vitaly gusin 7 October 2020 21: 28
      0
      Quote: MKPU-115
      Israel has no worthy adversary,

      Well, thank God!
      Quote: MKPU-115
      overestimate their strength,

      Well, what are we going to do with the six won wars in one of which the military units of the USSR also took part?
      Quote: MKPU-115
      how at one time Hitler overestimated the Wehrmacht and attacked the USSR, and before that he conquered all of Europe.

      And what side is it here? Israel does not attack, but preemptively protects itself from threats that may arise. Just as it protects the VKS from possible penetration of bandit formations into the territory of Russia, which was explained to your leadership and, judging by the situation, the explanation was accepted. Well, the fact that a certain circle of people does not like it is no longer a problem for Israel.
    4. MKPU-115
      MKPU-115 8 October 2020 00: 40
      -1
      Quote: Vitaly Gusin
      in one of which the military formations of the USSR also participated?

      "in one of which the military formations of the USSR also participated?" - Yes. yes, we had a teacher, two Israeli phantoms filled up in manual mode from the "Shilka" - discouraged flying, as cut off.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 9 October 2020 10: 33
    0
    Quote: Vitaly Gusin
    In short, he has a better chance of continuing the fight.

    No chances. At best will be incapacitated

    Quote: Vitaly Gusin
    Well, now about KAZ Trophy - this is a breakthrough system

    This system cannot deal with multiple missiles traveling in the same beam.

    Quote: Vitaly Gusin
    then your joke will be appropriate.

    It is not joke.
    KAZ is not a wunderwaffe. And now there are simple ways to overcome it.
  • kirillovleva
    kirillovleva 6 October 2020 20: 18
    +5
    Look at the losses of the Merkav in the 2006 war, not Israeli sources. Even the commander of a battalion or a tank brigade was killed there. Losses - several dozen tanks. The only thing is that everything is in the controlled territory and something can be restored, but there are many videos with the Merkav explosions.
    1. Vitaly gusin
      Vitaly gusin 7 October 2020 20: 52
      +2
      Quote: kirillovleva
      Look at the losses of the Merkav in the 2006 war, just not Israeli sources. Even the commander of a battalion or a tank brigade was killed there.

      Major Roei Klein, deputy commander of the 51st Battalion, Golani Brigade. He showed high responsibility and dedication in the performance of a combat mission, showing his personal example to his subordinates in the battles at Bint-Jbeil. Killed on July 26, 2006, covered with a grenade.
      According to official figures, the Israel Defense Forces have lost 121 people killed.
      About 60 units of armored vehicles received combat damage, including 48–52 tanks, of which 5 were irrecoverable.
      Everything else that you read in the propaganda media, the information depends on who ordered and paid for it.
      It is not possible to hide anything for information in Israel. The head of government is being tried for accepting gifts from his friend, expensive cigars, and his wife - champagne. The second case, the head of the media concern turned to Nataniyahu with a request to influence the reduction of the competitor's publication, and for this he will not write critical articles about him and his wife in his publication. There was no collusion, but there was an appeal from one side. Attempted bribe. It's hard for you to understand.
      When, God forbid, a soldier dies, representatives of the army come home and report and it is no longer possible to hide it. And after the message to the family of the deceased, everything until the time of the funeral is covered in the media. And no one ever has a thought that they have hidden.
  • carstorm 11
    carstorm 11 6 October 2020 20: 48
    +1
    overload is an application tactic. start by studying the precepts
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 7 October 2020 12: 29
    0
    How many times have the Israeli Trophies encountered normal soldiers with enough grenade launchers and brains? Name a battle in which the Trophy proved to be effective, just do not need the results of polygon advertising tests. KAZ is overloaded with two grenade launcher shots fired almost simultaneously.
  • Sasha from Uralmash
    Sasha from Uralmash 6 October 2020 19: 13
    +1
    ammunition is 10 orders of magnitude cheaper than the target!
    1. Zufei
      Zufei 7 October 2020 04: 51
      +1
      Only the Stone is a billion times cheaper
  • Dodikson
    Dodikson 7 October 2020 11: 13
    +1
    KAZ will not save from Krasnopol or Excalibur.
  • kirillovleva
    kirillovleva 6 October 2020 20: 14
    +3
    Generals are preparing for the past wars. Armenians burn with artillery and ATGMs, Azerbaijanis - UAVs. Some have no air defense, others have skill and determination.
  • Hypertension
    Hypertension 6 October 2020 20: 36
    +6
    Quote: carstorm 11
    KAZ will not save you from stupidity.

    Well, you compared! Stupidity is a weapon stronger than a thermonuclear bomb. Nothing will save her from her.
    1. t7310
      t7310 7 October 2020 09: 12
      +1
      "KAZ will not save you from stupidity"
      Since such a booze has gone, then aftomats will not save you from stupidity either ... as if by this logic, what about aftomats?
      1. Hypertension
        Hypertension 7 October 2020 15: 22
        0
        Quote: t7310
        as if by this logic nafig aftomats?

        Nafig stupidity!
  • _Ugene_
    _Ugene_ 6 October 2020 14: 30
    +3
    And why, in fact, only tanks, according to this logic, in general, the time of armored vehicles has passed? and any equipment on the front line, and they also attacked groups of soldiers
  • Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 6 October 2020 14: 32
    22
    The best KAZ in the upper hemisphere is air defense.
    The tank is just a protected mobile firing point. You cannot protect it from everything with armor, otherwise you will get a "mouse" that is unable to budge.
    Tanks should be covered by anti-aircraft guns and aircraft, supported by infantry and artillery, and act in coordination with the rest of the forces.
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 6 October 2020 14: 38
      0
      Quote: Jacket in stock
      The best KAZ of the upper hemisphere is air defense

      Give each tank platoon a shell? UAVs will be armed at the level of a motorized rifle squad. Micro / mini / kamikaze drones are already the norm, mass production will bring their cost to the RPG-7.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 6 October 2020 14: 56
        13
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        Give each tank platoon a shell?

        What for?
        You just need to cover the area in which the tank platoons are located or are fighting.
      2. Jacket in stock
        Jacket in stock 6 October 2020 15: 35
        +3
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        Give each tank platoon a shell?

        And why not?
        Well, if not "Shell", then at least "Derivation"
        By the way, an interceptor UAV can be attached to each tank in general, and even a couple of three, so that it will probably be enough.
        1. loki565
          loki565 6 October 2020 16: 09
          +5
          The work of the UAV tree has not been demonstrated anywhere, by the way, the shell of the cannons also showed itself very badly. Here only KAZ plus the direction finding of the location of the UAV operators will save.
          1. ZEMCH
            ZEMCH 6 October 2020 18: 11
            +2
            Quote: loki565
            The work of the UAV tree has not been demonstrated anywhere, by the way, the shell of the cannons also showed itself very badly. Here only KAZ plus the direction finding of the location of the UAV operators will save.

            They forgot about electronic warfare)) - cheaper and more efficient, they are not controlled by wires
            1. loki565
              loki565 6 October 2020 19: 47
              +1
              Electronic warfare is such a tricky thing that no one will say for sure whether she will help or not))) The Repellent did not help much, or they knew its location in advance and covered it with art.
    2. Alf
      Alf 6 October 2020 15: 25
      +4
      Quote: Jacket in stock
      Tanks should be covered by anti-aircraft guns and aircraft, supported by infantry and artillery, and act in coordination with the rest of the forces.

      It seems that both on the one hand and on the other request this simple truth is simply not known.
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 6 October 2020 14: 38
    19
    "that the time has come for KAZ with complete overlap of the hemisphere" ////
    ----
    Quite right. For example, it is known that Merkava-4 has a dead zone on top,
    where the Trophy falls short.
    We'll have to put the fifth radar (directed upwards) and one more (third) "shooter" on the tank.
    What to do, a new offensive weapon is a new defense.
    1. yehat2
      yehat2 6 October 2020 14: 50
      0
      The merkava needs to be renamed to saw or har for a long time
      another device on the car-4 sounds much clearer)))
    2. MKPU-115
      MKPU-115 7 October 2020 09: 56
      +1
      Quote: voyaka uh
      We'll have to put the fifth radar (directed upwards) and one more (third) "shooter" on the tank.

      Which, in turn, will increase the vulnerability to cannon artillery.
  • Thrifty
    Thrifty 6 October 2020 14: 48
    +9
    The lack of proper camouflage of equipment is striking, as is the lack of integrated air defense, hence such losses. If you fight wisely, the tanks will still show themselves, and this conflict is a manual for stupidity, even for unwillingness to mask normally equipment in positions.
    1. Alex777
      Alex777 6 October 2020 19: 13
      +1
      The ability to mask equipment in the IR range costs money. Armenians do not have so many of them.
  • CSKA
    CSKA 6 October 2020 17: 46
    +2
    Quote: _Ugene_
    that the time has come for KAZ with complete overlap of the hemisphere, maybe at least this example will finally make us understand this

    And where did you get the idea that they do not understand this? And the bulk of the armored vehicles was destroyed either by artillery or UAVs. Here KAZ is useless.
  • Maz
    Maz 6 October 2020 19: 28
    +7
    I will not invent anything. Just remember and imagine a hypothetical nuclear war. After that, tanks will rule over everything. Because there will be nothing to fly. The radiation levels for the tank do not affect the crew as well, and the means of destruction and maneuverability will make it possible to drive well through the ruins, showing who is now the boss. Second, before using tanks, simply detonate electromagnetic bombs and missiles over all bases, high-frequency units, and places of deployment and concentration of the enemy, paying attention to airfields. And the tank will go further, with armored infantry or with infantry accompanied by infantry fighting vehicles. Do not forget Karabakh is a local tribal conflict. It's just that instead of ATGM bows and arrows, some have tactics prepared in advance and targeted, mined terrain with well-thought-out defense and tactical techniques. And other Caucasian guys have high technology from Israel and Turkey. They are not ready for global breakthroughs and they do not have such weapons as EMB and global electronic warfare. They have no experience of waging war in large areas and in depth. Third - there is no air defense finally. So the tanks are still useful to us. Especially the T-80BM. And nobody canceled KAZ.
    1. Vitaly gusin
      Vitaly gusin 8 October 2020 22: 40
      0
      Quote: Maz
      high tech israel

      OH! What suddenly, are you healthy? Or did the money you received for the "crown" change your worldview?
  • Berkut752
    Berkut752 6 October 2020 21: 24
    0
    My young friend, let me tell you that the Armenians were trained by American instructors. Now they show this training. The Turkomans are on the side of the Azeris. They will show their agility when they meet Russians on their way ...................................
  • NEXUS
    NEXUS 7 October 2020 02: 05
    +6
    Quote: _Ugene_
    that the time has come for KAZ with complete overlap of the hemisphere, maybe at least this example will finally make us understand this

    In such a war as in Karabakh, neither KAZ will save, nor the Lord God. Why? Yes, because there is no intelligible air defense, electronic warfare systems, camouflage, helicopters with support and cover ... but there is no shit there.
    With full-fledged air defense, electronic warfare, target designation, and so on, the tank is a very tenacious unit.
    And here in an open field there is a static tank and they talk about KAZ, about "the time of tanks is gone" and so on ...
    What are you citizens about?
  • sen
    sen 7 October 2020 06: 26
    +2
    that the time has come for KAZ with complete overlap of the hemisphere, maybe at least this example will finally make us understand this

    And universal missiles capable of working against both ground targets and air targets. On "Terminator" you need to put such.
  • Alekseev
    Alekseev 7 October 2020 07: 09
    +2
    "It's time for KAZ"
    Yes, KAZ, but not only. And DZ, etc. are also necessary. What will be left of the KAZ after it fills the tank with shrapnel or from an automatic cannon?
    When there is no interaction of tanks, infantry, air defense, there is no full-fledged combat support, then the mortgages were ALWAYS great. As if this is news .... If only for some civilians, including in the United States.
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 7 October 2020 12: 25
    0
    Firstly, almost all KAZ are powerless against shells, and secondly, against KAZ, it is enough to make a volley of 2 or more grenade launchers or ATGMs, not to mention special grenade launchers with overcoming KAZ. Expensive, ineffective and can harm your infantry.
  • Megatron
    Megatron 7 October 2020 12: 38
    -1
    137 tanks, lie more that they, busurmans, feel sorry for them!
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 7 October 2020 12: 56
    +1
    The "fact of destruction" of such a large number of tanks only means that the Munchausen and Andersen are fighting on both sides)))
  • yehat2
    yehat2 6 October 2020 14: 20
    -2
    Quote: _Ugene_
    The fact of the destruction of dozens of tanks in Karabakh in a short time may indicate that
    that the time has come for KAZ with complete overlap of the hemisphere, maybe at least this example will finally make us understand this

    our army is not trained to gain superiority, but to complete the task.
    How many tankers will not return, our strategists do not really care.
    Even trained personnel are often valued below technology in our country.
    Well, at least in aviation, the shortage of pilots led to an understanding of the viciousness of this scheme.
    1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
      Sidor Amenpodestovich 6 October 2020 14: 29
      0
      Quote: yehat2
      our army is not trained to gain superiority, but to complete the task.
      How many tankers will not return, our strategists do not really care.

      Well, how many times will an army built on this principle be able to complete a task? One, three, five? And what's next? If I "didn’t shmogla", while the HP was still there, then I “give up”, since the HP ran out?
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 6 October 2020 14: 37
      +5
      Quote: yehat2
      we are preparing an army

      Yah?
      And as for me, they don't cook that much. Unfortunately.
      Tank biathlon and ostentatious exercises don't count.
      1. yehat2
        yehat2 6 October 2020 14: 46
        +1
        are preparing, but this level is, on average, much lower than what is called a combat-ready unit.
    3. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 6 October 2020 14: 59
      +3
      any equipment and any units working in direct close contact will always suffer losses. and carry out tasks despite this risk. and such losses will always be predicted and will be incurred. superiority can be achieved in the air or sea much more easily than on land. there are no cities and buildings. there are no caves and mountains and landscapes, etc. by the list.
    4. CSKA
      CSKA 6 October 2020 17: 50
      +7
      Quote: yehat2
      our army is not trained to gain superiority, but to complete the task.

      How can you complete the task without gaining superiority?)))))
      Quote: yehat2
      How many tankers will not return, our strategists do not really care.

      What is your opinion based on?
      1. yehat2
        yehat2 7 October 2020 09: 52
        +3
        Quote: CSKA
        How can you complete the task without gaining superiority?)))))

        ask Pyrrhus
        Quote: CSKA
        What is your opinion based on?

        on what kind of real upgrades are tanks
        this applies to shells, and KAZ and much more
        especially sad with armored vehicles for infantry.
        1. CSKA
          CSKA 8 October 2020 10: 26
          0
          Quote: yehat2
          ask Pyrrhus

          You would still remember the Battle of Gaugamela. Have you seen such an example in modern warfare?

          Quote: yehat2
          on what kind of real upgrades are tanks
          this applies to shells, and KAZ and much more
          especially sad with armored vehicles for infantry.

          The fact that you don't like something about modernizing our tanks does not mean that:
          Quote: yehat2
          How many tankers will not return, our strategists do not really care.

          Our generals are just soulless. You probably know them personally. And what is so sad about the armored vehicles for the infantry?
          1. Plastmaster
            Plastmaster 8 October 2020 11: 02
            0
            So the generals only need orders, pensions and retired Canaries. And how many soldiers will pay for this, they will not write in their memoirs.
            1. CSKA
              CSKA 8 October 2020 12: 24
              0
              Quote: Plastmaster
              So the generals only need orders, pensions and retired Canaries. And how many soldiers will pay for this, they will not write in their memoirs.

              Well, of course. Started. A similar song from 1917. Let's shoot all the officers, and the army will be controlled by privates or your commissars.)))))
      2. sevryuk
        sevryuk 7 October 2020 11: 35
        +1
        Because the polymers are fucked up! angry
        1. CSKA
          CSKA 8 October 2020 10: 29
          0
          Quote: sevryuk
          Because the polymers are fucked up!

          What polymers are you talking about?
  • Prahlad
    Prahlad 6 October 2020 14: 22
    -12 qualifying.
    And we just released Armata ... it's a shame, damn it!
    1. nnm
      nnm 6 October 2020 14: 26
      +8
      Exactly, let's listen to all Western experts! They will say - we have a railgun and the time of the Strategic Missile Forces is gone - we will arrive the whole triad without hesitation.
      The only question is why stupid Americans don't kill the tank program.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 6 October 2020 14: 38
        +1
        Quote: nnm
        The only question is why stupid Americans don't kill the tank program.

        How to say....
        Marines just kill ...
        1. nnm
          nnm 6 October 2020 14: 58
          +3
          So there, and the number of the Corps is cut by almost 10% ...
        2. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 6 October 2020 15: 11
          -1
          Quote: Spade
          The Marines do kill.

          More precisely, the Abrams are removed, a wheeled tank can be purchased. They have plans to purchase some new 8 * 8 machine. LAV-25 plays all roles in the ILC except for a wheeled tank.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 6 October 2020 15: 16
            +1
            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            wheeled tank can and buy

            What is it?
            They have no "wheeled tanks"
            1. OgnennyiKotik
              OgnennyiKotik 6 October 2020 15: 22
              0
              Anyone that is on the market or new will do. The plans are for 23-25 ​​years.
              They have a Stryker with a 105 mm cannon, they can buy from Italy and Japan. I was wrong, there is a LAV-105 or LAV-AG.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 6 October 2020 15: 26
                +3
                Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                LAV-AG

                Light Armored Vehicle-Assault Gun
                This is not a tank, this is an "assault weapon".
                That is to say, a direct fire support combat vehicle.
                Even the place in the battle formation is different.
                If the tank is in front of the infantry "line", then the vehicles of this type are behind.
      2. Galleon
        Galleon 6 October 2020 14: 57
        10
        Quote: nnm
        why stupid Americans don't kill the tank program ..

        They do not fight without air supremacy. And if the air is controlled, you can roll out the tanks and the self-propelled guns. For whom the air, for that and the battlefield.
    2. Thrall
      Thrall 6 October 2020 14: 28
      +6
      Quote: Prahlad
      And we just released Armata ... it's a shame, damn it!

      We plowed - me and the tractor?
      1. The comment was deleted.
    3. SSR
      SSR 6 October 2020 14: 39
      -2
      Quote: Prahlad
      And we just released Armata ... it's a shame, damn it!

      And what about Armata? No radar? Oh yes, the BLP has not yet been presented to society on the wire.
      But society is offended and society does not sleep.)))
      Do not be offended, everyone is working, but do not forget to read between the lines, our military is not focused on the task, an area of ​​112000 m2 or more to take a month, our military, with huge problems, on the fifth day were ready to take Tbilisi at 08.08.08 our military for a short Crimea was de-copied, our military, in a short time and with small forces, turned the tide in Syria despite help from the United States, Turkey, Israel and indirectly Iraq.
      Kamikaze drones can still fall on single targets somewhere, but the country and the required capital will already be disarmed and if necessary, the Channel will not help. And please, do not forget that only in the USA and Russia there are unmanned vehicles and that in Russia, at least in the initial demonstrations, control of a swarm of drones has been worked out, no one else, even a powerful Jew in all UAVs, did this.
      Comrades Israelis, but as they say, to speak the truth is to lose friends. Your excellent UAVs and UAVs of other countries, in the event of a large batch and without nuclear weapons, will not make the weather for anyone, Russia, which is capable of destroying satellites in space, with a UAV in the back, will decide anyway.
      1. Vadim_888
        Vadim_888 6 October 2020 21: 29
        +1
        Self-driving cars? Well, well ... Another "e" mobile was forgotten, it was also promised, a fret for a grant on methane, whether there was a ioto-background, water from the Dnieper, bypassing Ukraine, to Crimea to be supplied, to enter the top five world economies, but nano - there are sinks almost everywhere, at every sink ...
        1. SSR
          SSR 7 October 2020 00: 40
          +3
          Quote: Vadim_888
          Self-driving cars? Oh well..

          Boy, go and learn, please learn how many countries have their own search engine and the top five search engines.
          A huge request, for people like you, put a minus in silence and cheer on, it's a pity to waste time answering people who are generally akin to a traffic jam.
          Forgive me traffic jams.
          In general, put the minus silently chelduite.
          Yes, people will forgive me, but where am I for people, according to Lavrov, wrote about iota, emoba and other things?
          They got the ignorant, akin to the bulk, slogans, cliches and not a drop of brain activity
          1. Vadim_888
            Vadim_888 7 October 2020 08: 18
            -3
            So, super smart uncle, I was a boy 30 years ago, your super smart search engine Yamba (Yandex) has localization within 80 million users, compare this figure with yahoo, the satellite bent safely last month ...
            And by the way, your beloved Yandex works on WebKit, so for help (Apple and company)
            And putting a minus to people like you, it falls below your own level ...
            1. sevryuk
              sevryuk 7 October 2020 11: 38
              +4
              Yes, we are still not doing well with polymers, what can we hide ... crying
    4. sergo
      sergo 6 October 2020 15: 48
      +6
      Don't worry, nobody has let Armata go anywhere. This is a ceremonial tank, it will not go further than Red Square.
      1. CSKA
        CSKA 6 October 2020 17: 53
        +4
        Quote: sergo
        Don't worry, nobody has let Armata go anywhere. This is a ceremonial tank, it will not go further than Red Square.

        Well, we once heard the same nonsense about the S-400, and about the Iskander OTRK, and about the Su-35, and about the Ka-52. The dogs are barking the caravan is coming.
        1. sergo
          sergo 6 October 2020 19: 41
          0
          Everything you have listed is based on Soviet developments. They tried to create the armature themselves, but unfortunately did not leave the red square.
          1. CSKA
            CSKA 7 October 2020 13: 18
            +1
            Quote: sergo
            Everything you have listed is based on Soviet developments

            If an airplane has wings, could it be developed from the Wright brothers? Are you a designer? Did you personally develop the S-300PT / PS in the USSR? At least think about it with your head. If the S-400 is a development even under the USSR, then why, after the S-300PS made under the USSR, they began to produce not the S-400, but the S-300PMU2? OTRK Iskander did not even really develop anything from 88 to 91. All development work was carried out in the 00s.
            Quote: sergo
            They tried to create the armata themselves, but unfortunately did not leave the red square.

            They did not try to create, but created. If you are not able to simply watch the video of the tank tests, this is your problem.
    5. Incvizitor
      Incvizitor 6 October 2020 16: 25
      +1
      But they have no normal tanks, they generally need to be charmed as combat units.
  • Fungus
    Fungus 6 October 2020 14: 24
    +5
    Air defense if there is normal artillery, then the tanks will be intact
  • paul3390
    paul3390 6 October 2020 14: 24
    +7
    Well, first of all, judging by the reports there, it is generally not clear who is fighting - it seems that everyone was killed on both sides in a week .. And then - even the Arab-Israeli wars showed that armored vehicles without air defense and reinforcement means are just a target. There is nothing new here. You just need to arm the army in the right way. And teach ..
    1. Alf
      Alf 6 October 2020 15: 30
      +2
      Quote: paul3390
      You just need to arm the army in the right way. And teach ..

      And the command should be appropriate, not these tomato-peach merchants.
  • the finish
    the finish 6 October 2020 14: 25
    -1
    Azerbaijani military ordered to prepare strikes against the enemy's military-strategic infrastructure using weapons of great destructive power: RIA
    And this is right after the visit of the Turkish Foreign Minister
    1. Oquzyurd
      Oquzyurd 6 October 2020 16: 06
      0
      "The Azerbaijani military were ordered to prepare strikes against the military-strategic infrastructure of the enemy with the use of weapons of great destructive force" If the Armenians shoot Iskander. Why you missed it, did not add it. Who are you kidding?
    2. Oquzyurd
      Oquzyurd 6 October 2020 16: 12
      -1
      HERE is the full text, finish cheating finish.
      .........................................................
      As reported on the website of the Ministry of Defense, during the meeting, the current situation in the ongoing counter-offensive operation was analyzed and instructions were given to continue the systematic, purposeful and consistent destruction of enemy forces.

      The Minister of Defense instructed the troops to take vital and necessary measures in the liberated territories.

      “The Minister of Defense said that if the enemy uses Iskander tactical missile systems, adequate retaliatory actions will be taken. The Minister ordered the Azerbaijani Army to plan actions to strike at the military-strategic infrastructure on the enemy's territory using the types of weapons available in the arsenal that have great destructive power, ”the Ministry of Defense said.
      1. the finish
        the finish 6 October 2020 16: 34
        0
        Are they not already applied?
        1. Oquzyurd
          Oquzyurd 6 October 2020 16: 38
          0
          Apparently not yet applied.
  • Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 6 October 2020 14: 27
    +2
    Have you killed a lot of tanks?
    Well, they are also a priority goal, they are hunted first of all.
  • OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 6 October 2020 14: 29
    -5
    The time of the MBT of the 70-80s has definitely passed. Western tanks have long stepped over the mass of 70 tons, they are already heavier than the Royal Tiger. In fact, there was a new division into light (wheeled), medium and heavy tanks. Now actual mobile equipment with KAZ and good mine protection and they are purchased by modern armies, heavy tanks (former MBT) for urban battles.
    UAVs make fortified positions useless, they already fly through the window of the moving Urals. And there are more and more drones. The same Turks have 36 models in development, the United States has over a hundred.
    1. CSKA
      CSKA 6 October 2020 18: 00
      +2
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      The time of the MBT of the 70-80s has definitely passed. Western tanks have long stepped over the mass of 70 tons, they are already heavier than the Royal Tiger.

      Western tanks are just the 80s. And where did you get the idea that weight plays a role?
    2. Vadim_888
      Vadim_888 6 October 2020 21: 36
      +1
      ... they are purchased by modern armies, heavy tanks (former MBT) for urban battles.

      The concept of a tank for urban battles does not currently exist in any country in the world, the tank is a purely field-based creature, direct visibility is important to it (this is in the general mass, I do not voice the Koreans, this is a separate topic)
      1. OgnennyiKotik
        OgnennyiKotik 6 October 2020 21: 44
        -2
        Seriously?
        Abrams Tank Urban Survival Kit

        Version of the T-72 tank for urban combat
        1. Vadim_888
          Vadim_888 7 October 2020 08: 35
          +1
          And what will your tank do when an RPG is stuck on its "roof" on a narrow street?
  • Alien From
    Alien From 6 October 2020 14: 30
    +4
    The time of tanks has not passed, the time has come for serious electronic protection of these same tanks!
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 6 October 2020 14: 33
    +3
    How many people, so many opinions. Again, a new time, new tactics ... And then if you evaluate the reports of the belligerent parties, having estimated slightly, you can come to the conclusion that, in theory, they have already shot and destroyed more than one enemy army, but total losses can probably be compared with those of Stalingrad ...
  • d4rkmesa
    d4rkmesa 6 October 2020 14: 35
    +1
    It's time to change approaches. We need a total introduction of KAZ, tanks and infantry fighting vehicles with armored capsules. Heavy infantry fighting vehicles, like the T-15, should be able to knock down every little thing on the approach and fight back from ammunition with KAZs. And also, it is necessary to revise the approaches to mobile air defense systems. The same "Thor" solves problems at the level of the division, but with its range, it should be a little further than the battlefield. And where the Toram was previously supposed to be, Buki or something similar in range is needed.
  • Garris199
    Garris199 6 October 2020 14: 37
    +7
    As if in World War II, on the western front, the newest German tanks were not carried out mainly by the Allied aircraft. Only after that, something no one said that the time of tanks had passed. As if the IL-2 or "Stuck" were not that "headache" for tanks. You need to cover the equipment and gain air superiority.
  • rocket757
    rocket757 6 October 2020 14: 41
    -2
    WHO TEACHED THE ARMY OF AZERBAIJAN ??? WHOSE OFFICERS / ADVISORS ARE RUNNING THERE? TURKS and again TURKS!
    And can anyone remember when they had at least once, the successful use of tanks in battle? Let's remember how the partisans burned their LEOPARDS !!!
    Do not feed the horse!
    There is nothing more to discuss.
    By the way, the Armenian military learned from US! And they train, they took part in the exercises WITH US!
    Schaub there the new government did not heap, they did not have time to tear the army apart.
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 6 October 2020 14: 45
      +3
      Quote: rocket757
      Let's remember how the partisans burned their LEOPARDS !!!

      Can we remember how our tanks were burned in Chechnya and Afghanistan? Don't write nonsense.
      1. Alf
        Alf 6 October 2020 15: 36
        0
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        Can we remember how our tanks were burned in Chechnya and Afghanistan? Don't write nonsense.

        And you will compare the numbers of tank losses in the first Chechen war and in the second, there is a difference.
        And in Afghanistan, tanks had nothing to do at all, since somehow they were not trained to jump over the mountains.
        1. rocket757
          rocket757 6 October 2020 15: 47
          +2
          Now measures have been taken, both technical and organizational!
          And in war it is always like this, at first weeding out low-quality command personnel, this is a standard process .... generals / commanders of peace and wartime are different, like day and night. However, this happens to everyone.
        2. Vadim_888
          Vadim_888 6 October 2020 21: 42
          0
          ... And in Afghanistan, tanks had nothing to do at all, since somehow they were not trained to jump over the mountains.

          Soviet and Russian, yes,
          But the South Korean ones are very trained.
      2. rocket757
        rocket757 6 October 2020 15: 44
        -3
        The wise man who learns from his mistakes, and even better from strangers!
        There was, there was, there was confusion in the country and a mess in the army. Tough lessons, but we pretty much learned and started correcting mistakes.
        1. Vadim_888
          Vadim_888 6 October 2020 21: 44
          +1
          ... Tough lessons, but we pretty much learned and started correcting mistakes.

          Are you sure of this?
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 6 October 2020 22: 17
            0
            There are problems, bosses are greedy and reckless ... Moscow was not built right away either. Let's break through!
    2. Grits
      Grits 6 October 2020 16: 10
      +2
      Quote: rocket757
      And can anyone remember when they had at least once, the successful use of tanks in battle? Let's remember how the partisans burned their LEOPARDS !!!
      Do not feed the horse!
      There is nothing more to discuss.
      By the way, the Armenian military learned from US!

      So what? After all, judging by the above losses, they are practically equal. True az. tanks on the offensive, and ar. tanks on the defensive.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 6 October 2020 16: 45
        +1
        It's hard to say, let alone count ... a lot of lies from all sides. War propaganda is so special.
        The main thing is that people are dying on both sides ... and the arsonist is happily rubbing his paws.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 6 October 2020 14: 43
    -4
    Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich
    And what's next?

    and then "we are not ready to give up the general appeal yet"
    are not ready to abandon the charter written under the king of peas
    and many other things are not ready yet.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 6 October 2020 14: 55
      +2
      Quote: yehat2
      are not ready to abandon the charter written under the king of peas

      ?
      In 2005 year
      1. yehat2
        yehat2 6 October 2020 14: 56
        -4
        there are items that were included in the charter in the 17th century, when the soldiers were serfs and served for 40 years.
        and which are not found anywhere in Europe. It doesn't matter when it was approved.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 6 October 2020 14: 58
          +4
          Quote: yehat2
          there are clauses that were included in the charter in the 17th century

          Ну и что?
          Our regulations are traditionally liberal for commanders who are ready to think with their heads. Not American Max Chew Field Manuals.
          1. yehat2
            yehat2 6 October 2020 15: 09
            -9
            Personally, I am enraged by the powerlessness of soldiers.
            a soldier in fact cannot refuse service, cannot choose where to serve, cannot discuss the order in any way, and if he is sent to certain death,
            then he can only then file an appeal from the afterlife.
            It is often impossible for a soldier to fix a painful life.
            SOMETIMES this is justified, but constantly - it's definitely overkill
            according to the rules for officers, in general I do not see big shoals

            I myself did not serve, but just in 2005 I visited my brother in the army - I saw enough of how they live there.
            literally shocked everything. But the most tough thing is non-regulation, which the officers not only did not stop, but made part of the system.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 6 October 2020 15: 15
              +4
              Quote: yehat2
              Personally, I am enraged by the powerlessness of soldiers.

              This has nothing to do with the statutes.
              Do not confuse general military and combat, they are different things.
              It is the combat ones that are used on the battlefield.

              Well, and the rest ... If there is normal combat training, then there is a statute. Of course, most of the conscripts would vote for hazing with both hands, but in the end, it is easier for officers to do everything according to the Charter. Less likely to run into much, trusting "grandfathers" But many simply do not understand this.
            2. bars1
              bars1 6 October 2020 15: 54
              +7
              Quote: yehat2
              Personally, I am enraged by the powerlessness of soldiers.
              a soldier in fact cannot refuse service, cannot choose where to serve, cannot discuss the order in any way, and if he is sent to certain death,
              then he can only then file an appeal from the afterlife.
              It is often impossible for a soldier to fix a painful life.
              SOMETIMES this is justified, but constantly - it's definitely overkill
              according to the rules for officers, in general I do not see big shoals

              It was precisely with such calls for the "democratization of regulations" that the rapid disintegration of the Russian army began in February 1917. Would you like to repeat?
              1. yehat2
                yehat2 6 October 2020 16: 05
                -4
                Why go to extremes? It is only necessary that the soldier was not a slave who is being bullied, but a real soldier. Of course, Democratic committees introduce idiocy, but also
                what is now, simply does not correspond to either the constitution or the normal view of the military. But what to say, we even normally have hundreds of deaths of soldiers in the service are not investigated, constantly on the brakes down.
                For example, how many soldiers have already been crushed near Chita by our valiant tankers? There are already hundreds. And has something changed? Exactly zero.
                1. t7310
                  t7310 7 October 2020 09: 38
                  +2
                  "How many soldiers have already been crushed near Chita by our valiant tankers?"
                  but it is possible to be more specific about what the speech is about, I fed this question to Yandex, except for 8 executed (Ramil Shamsutdinov) I found almost nothing
                  1. yehat2
                    yehat2 7 October 2020 09: 48
                    -1
                    every year from 2 to 8 XNUMX under caterpillars
                    mainly because the officers, in the absence of fuel, let the columns of soldiers along the roads on foot next to the tanks to the training ground. And on the tanks there are the same conscripts, not aces-drivers. I made a mistake and crushed it. And this has been repeated for many years.
                    Of course, this is not advertised. But I, having visited the same infantry and in the hospital, learned a little more.
              2. Vadim_888
                Vadim_888 6 October 2020 21: 53
                0
                ... It was precisely with such calls for the "democratization of regulations" that the rapid disintegration of the Russian army began in February 1917. Do you want to repeat?

                Can you compare your army with the Israeli one?
                1. bukhach
                  bukhach 7 October 2020 00: 14
                  +2
                  For the sake of curiosity, what parameters do you want to compare?
                  1. Vadim_888
                    Vadim_888 7 October 2020 12: 58
                    -2
                    ... For the sake of curiosity, what parameters do you want to compare

                    For irreversible losses of manpower, try to start from here
                    1. bukhach
                      bukhach 7 October 2020 13: 50
                      0
                      And for what period of time, for what specific clashes? And, then, the mournful numbers of losses, no matter how cynical it may seem, have a different weight for Russia and Israel, I’m talking about the population size.
            3. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 8 October 2020 04: 34
              +1
              what an epic nonsense ... you don’t confuse a soldier with a student? what does it mean to discuss the order? during the battle, can you still arrange a vote? understand for yourself already-service is bylaws and responsibilities. including the execution of orders, but you always have the right not to follow them and go to court.
  • Ros 56
    Ros 56 6 October 2020 14: 48
    +3
    This is not the time of tanks has passed, it is just that the time for covering these tanks from the air has increased.
  • dzvero
    dzvero 6 October 2020 14: 51
    -3
    The tanks are outdated, they burned 100500 in a day ... And they will burn more! After all, when it was said that "with 250 barrels per kilometer of the front, the enemy is not reported."
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 6 October 2020 14: 52
    +2
    A tank on the battlefield with single applications, without air defense and infantry cover, is just a target. KAZ with a full hemisphere - it would be nice, but where is she?
  • Ax Matt
    Ax Matt 6 October 2020 14: 52
    +5
    Judging by the way they (all: both those and others) are fighting on them, standing in unmasked caponiers and leaving, as if on a show, these are just static targets for ATGMs and the rest and nothing else. Even me, as an anti-tank officer in the distant past, can see this without thinking. The tactics are lousy. I think it's all about disgusting training. Rather, in the direct absence of such. But, for Russia, it is even good in a sense: if they burn them, new ones will come to buy.
    1. Alf
      Alf 6 October 2020 15: 40
      +5
      Quote: Ax Matt
      But, for Russia, it is even good in a sense: if they burn them, new ones will come to buy.

      It's good if you buy, otherwise they will beg on credit. With subsequent write-off.
      1. Ax Matt
        Ax Matt 6 October 2020 16: 14
        +2
        In order for these undecided to have a credit freebie with further write-offs (and this is taxpayers' money!), It is necessary to have a specific tough policy for such fans to fight at someone else's expense. It seems to me that now this is exactly what is getting better: not a single patron without specific FAVORABLE FOR RF (!) Obligations!
        1. Alf
          Alf 6 October 2020 16: 28
          +3
          Quote: Ax Matt
          It seems to me that now this is exactly what is getting better: not a single patron without specific FAVORABLE FOR RF (!) Obligations!

          Well, if so.
          In matters of such benefits, it would be good for us to learn from the "partners", these have already eaten a dog on this topic.
          1. Ax Matt
            Ax Matt 6 October 2020 20: 27
            0
            Yes, yes, I agree ... Not with those who eat dogs yes
  • iouris
    iouris 6 October 2020 15: 01
    0
    Generals are preparing for the last war, but the time has come for completely different wars. In addition, whoever prepares to strike first always has the advantage. In the absence of "strategic depth", this factor is often decisive. Time is of the utmost importance, so the war should be waged with the maximum effort of all forces and resources, taking into account the space, the nature of the theater relief and logistic capabilities. The Azerbaijani army does not use its advantages well, so the Turkish factor should be expected to strengthen. The ultimate goal of Pashinyan’s administration is not entirely clear: to retain or surrender Karabakh with reference to force majeure circumstances? You can say anything you want.
  • Freedim
    Freedim 6 October 2020 15: 04
    +2
    On the Azeri video, the last "tank" is somehow suspicious .. It seemed to me alone that instead of a cannon he had a log broken in two places? .. smile
    1. Garris199
      Garris199 6 October 2020 15: 16
      +1
      Looks like. How do you like this? Can someone explain what it is?
      1. Nastia makarova
        Nastia makarova 6 October 2020 16: 06
        -4
        this is an inflatable model
      2. loki565
        loki565 6 October 2020 16: 15
        +2
        And how do you like Wasp, isn't it similar?)))
        1. Garris199
          Garris199 6 October 2020 16: 33
          +2
          It is very likely that only "Grad" is straightforward at all to "fuck off", crookedly and askew. However, the UAV operator had enough)
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 6 October 2020 19: 14
            +1
            Well, over time, the problem with deception will go away, they will simply teach the UAV to clearly determine what it is attacking - the selection of false targets will be created programmatically.
      3. Ax Matt
        Ax Matt 6 October 2020 16: 17
        +2
        It is clearly visible: MLRS "Grad" with an open hood. It was not serviced for a long time and stood in the park - the engine overheated ... as an option.
  • Pacifist
    Pacifist 6 October 2020 15: 34
    +2
    The fact of the destruction of dozens of tanks in Karabakh in a short period of time may indicate that

    always divide by 10 the statements of hot guys when describing their achievements.
  • Ivan Tixiy
    Ivan Tixiy 6 October 2020 15: 57
    +3
    He speaks only about their tanks debility use by moronic crews
  • NF68
    NF68 6 October 2020 15: 59
    +3
    Tanks and other equipment still need to be used wisely.
  • Olddetractor
    Olddetractor 6 October 2020 16: 10
    +1
    ... the time of tanks has passed

    Nothing like it, it's just time for amazing stories belay
  • Dikson
    Dikson 6 October 2020 16: 15
    -2
    And how wonderful the wunder waffle will burn ... the coupling of two platforms, which we are inventing ... it will just be a feast for the eyes .. - a long, tasty iron caterpillar ..
  • APASUS
    APASUS 6 October 2020 16: 15
    +3
    When the missiles appeared, then they also predicted the end of barrel artillery, but things are still there ...............
  • Whirlwind
    Whirlwind 6 October 2020 18: 24
    +1
    I don't know how true this is, but the tank is supposedly designed for 20 minutes of modern, offensive combat. It is clear that battles can be different, like tanks and their crews. Plus different cover and different disguises. So you can't just knock out a tank.
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  • Out
    Out 6 October 2020 18: 46
    +4
    UAVs, air defense, tanks ... To attack a mine, well-covered field, no resources will be enough for an unsuppressed enemy defense what
  • Lesorub
    Lesorub 6 October 2020 19: 22
    +4
    The fact that dozens of tanks in Karabakh were destroyed in a short time may indicate that the day of the tank is over - that such a platform could be too vulnerable to aircraft and attack drones.

    The problem is not in the tanks - but in the tactics of their use and, most importantly, in covering by air defense means (as the recent hostilities in Syria and Armenia, and before that in Iraq, have shown), and the tanks themselves should acquire KAZ systems (state officials, who did not develop data systems - and they put Israeli Trophies)
  • Victorm
    Victorm 6 October 2020 19: 31
    -1
    We found a reason for ourselves to talk about the fate of the tanks and bury them ...
    T-72 and even T-90 used by the parties, to put it mildly, are not the most modern tanks; at best, more advanced devices and systems "friend or foe" have been installed. Talk about the fate of tanks, starting from ferrous metal as T-72, -90, all the more analyzing the actions of the Armed Forces of Azerbaijan and the Armed Forces of Armenia, and even more so in mountainous areas laughing
    We must be aware that, despite the abundance of modern systems, the Azerbaijani Armed Forces are still very far from the appearance of a modern army, one or two generations of officers need to be replaced. The Armed Forces of Armenia generally remained in the last century. And plus to all this, the banal lack of training and ELEMENTARY mistakes on both sides, in some cases, simply the lack of discipline among the military. For all this, both sides paid with the lives of their soldiers and, of course, equipment, including tanks.
  • andrew42
    andrew42 6 October 2020 20: 56
    +2
    Well, all that remains is to offer the Americans to cut their tanks once so at 5. Will they agree? - I don’t think so.
  • lubesky
    lubesky 6 October 2020 22: 19
    +2
    It only tells me that, as always, the means of destruction are half a step ahead. Also, the life of a tank in battle does not fluctuate much from decade to decade, but the massiveness and labor intensity of the production of a modern machine and its cost do not in any way meet the standards of a long war with high intensity and large theater of operations. Many say that such a war will not happen in the nuclear era, and I have always said - you need to have a trained mobilization component that can fight with equipment and means of the Second World War - since all modern means and weapons will be ground in the first months of the war and mass production of such equipment will be established - unrealistic.
  • Dimon Dimonov_2
    Dimon Dimonov_2 6 October 2020 23: 17
    0
    They jam electronic warfare and electronic warfare ... up to 300 km and up to a height of 10 km ...
  • Shadow041
    Shadow041 6 October 2020 23: 29
    +3
    In 1941, the Germans destroyed Soviet tanks in the same way, but this did not cancel the tanks. Aviation has long been the God of War, it is no secret, but aviation cannot solve all issues on the battlefield, it has been proven in Vietnam.
  • lvov_aleksey
    lvov_aleksey 7 October 2020 00: 05
    +1
    funny, but Syria and Afghanistan showed different
  • lvov_aleksey
    lvov_aleksey 7 October 2020 00: 08
    +1
    Quote: Shadow041
    In 1941, the Germans destroyed Soviet tanks in the same way, but this did not cancel the tanks. Aviation has long been the God of War, it is no secret, but aviation cannot solve all issues on the battlefield, it has been proven in Vietnam.

    god of war "Artillery", and without soldiers in the trenches nowhere ...... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
  • lvov_aleksey
    lvov_aleksey 7 October 2020 00: 14
    -1
    I do not know how to explain to you, I want to convey that the tank lives in open war for only 2-3 minutes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    ps the entire warhead is designed for this time! And then a tin can ...
  • bukhach
    bukhach 7 October 2020 00: 29
    +1
    Based on a small military conflict, and even in such an area, it is clearly premature to draw conclusions about the decline of the era of tanks. Tanks are an offensive weapon, dynamics and not static, and an offensive organized according to all the rules of military science, with intelligence, with proper air defense, with the help of aviation. Well, the combat stability of the tank in the event of a nuclear war is very high and this cannot be discounted.
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  • Zementbomber
    Zementbomber 7 October 2020 01: 26
    -1
    Foolishness of the level "Numbers of Sevastopol". (or "Churov's numbers" - to whom as much more nraviTSTSO)). This does not "speak" about anything. Even if (important!) - acc. reality.
    From WWII to the Second Gulf War, there were battles where hundreds of battle tanks were destroyed and disabled in a day. AND??
    Cr. In addition, any, the most physically and morally modern military equipment is in the hands of a "monkey," with a show-off the case of "posing as homo sapiens" is not even a club. The fate of the Saudi M1A2 in Yemen, where on the side of the so-called. "Houthis" even fought the T-34-85 - this is an example and a guarantee.
    Py.Sy. However, - T-72 - was really deeply grotesque tanchik already during its appearance to the World. And now ...
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 7 October 2020 08: 14
    +1
    Two nations are fighting b ... c, unable to use modern weapons.
    1. t7310
      t7310 7 October 2020 09: 49
      +1
      "Two nations are fighting b ... c"
      ah ... (call it what you want) draw conclusions about the decline of the era of tanks
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  • ua1osm
    ua1osm 7 October 2020 14: 32
    0
    The main thing for a tank is speed, maneuver. Something I did not see any maneuvers here. Iron is pounded either in caponiers, exposed, or rides a little bit. In general, as in 1941, the Germans calmly beat our 34s. But when Katukov got down to business, Guderian went bad. In general, they do not have competent, fired commanders here, but until they appear, all their tanks will split.
  • ua1osm
    ua1osm 7 October 2020 14: 32
    0
    The main thing for a tank is speed, maneuver. Something I did not see any maneuvers here. Iron is pounded either in caponiers, exposed, or rides a little bit. In general, as in 1941, the Germans calmly beat our 34s. But when Katukov got down to business, Guderian went bad. In general, they do not have competent, fired commanders here, but until they appear, all their tanks will split.
  • Kaw
    Kaw 7 October 2020 16: 45
    0
    The fact that the tanks were destroyed only indicates that Armenia's military air defense does not meet modern requirements.
  • Inspector
    Inspector 7 October 2020 21: 04
    0
    The battleships also left. It's a matter of time - when.
  • Alt 22
    Alt 22 7 October 2020 21: 24
    0
    The time of tanks has not passed. The time has passed without modern tanks.