Discussion on the issue of combat training in open areas: for training or for spectacular shots

Shot from military exercises of the PLA

Voennoye Obozreniye some time ago published materials on the passage of the Kavkaz-2020 strategic command-and-staff exercises, in which about 80 thousand people participated. One of the materials was devoted to how the dense fire of the MLRS "Tornado-G" at the Volgograd "Prudboy training ground" destroyed armored vehicles (armored vehicles) of a conventional enemy.

Then a discussion broke out, in which claims were made regarding the advisability of this kind of shooting - "in an open area, without any secrecy of military equipment." There were also statements that this is, rather, not a stage of real military exercises for practicing the destruction of enemy armored vehicles at the range, but "a staged version for a spectacular TV report." This version has traditionally revealed both its supporters and opponents.

Today, the Chinese media are publishing footage of military exercises in the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, in the Tien Shan mountain range. The footage shows how Chinese armored vehicles, including Tanks, and cannon artillery, being in absolutely open areas of the terrain, perform live fires at the positions of the conditional enemy.

At the same time, it is reported that the Chinese military for several hours equipped positions for firing during exercises in the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region. If we follow the above "discussion" logic, it turns out that the Chinese army also prefers not to practice the tactics of stealthily advancing and entering the battle right away, but to create a picture for the TV crew.

How do Chinese media comment on the PLA exercises?

The Sina publication notes that shooting in open areas allows you to develop basic skills for hitting various kinds of targets. Material:

This military exercise can also give soldiers a feel for the real environment of the battlefield, especially effective for training recruits.

In the end, this kind of military training does not in any way conflict with the fact that at the same time create a spectacular shot for the viewer.

Comments

[Observer2014]

Discussion on the issue of combat training in open areas: for training or for spectacular shots

If it's about garlic, then looking at the footage from real military operations. The footage of shooting in open areas is only for spectacular shots. And nothing else.

[Interlocutor]

If it's about garlic, then looking at the footage from real military operations. The footage of shooting in open areas is only for spectacular shots. And nothing else.

Well, if you press the "sky" to the ground, then you can wrestle ...

[Observer2014]

Quote: Interlocutor

If it's about garlic, then looking at the footage from real military operations. The footage of shooting in open areas is only for spectacular shots. And nothing else.

Well, if you press the "sky" to the ground, then you can wrestle ...

That's right, if the "sky" is pressed to the ground. In the meantime, "heaven" is not crushed. Only spectacular shots.

[Sibiriya]

Recently, Tactic Media released a video with parsing photos, the video is short and illustrative.

[Cowbra]

Karabakh. And I'm not talking about drones, but about art on openly standing equipment - sometimes Azerbaijanis will stand up, get hotter, and what counter-battery fight is - they have never heard of it, and, it seems, together with the Turks and militants from Syria

[Nehist]

Well, not only, even for practicing at least some skill. You won't send those who sit on the tank for the first time to practice night shooting in poor visibility conditions !? And so at least learn to aim

[Lopatov]

Quote: Observer2014

Shooting in the open area only for spectacular shots

And this is on a drum.
Open area, closed ... Not important for preparation purposes

Moreover, if you train l / s for combat work, then this is perhaps even better. SOB and KOV will be able to see the jambs of individual calculations.

[Observer2014]

Quote: Spade

Quote: Observer2014

Shooting in the open area only for spectacular shots

And this is on a drum.
Open area, closed ... Not important for preparation purposes

Moreover, if you train l / s for combat work, then this is perhaps even better. SOB and KOV will be able to see the jambs of individual calculations.

I agree. It's easier and easier for them to observe what is happening.
But not always, and not in the entire educational process.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Observer2014

But not always, and not in the entire educational process.

But here it is not at all a fact that this is "the whole educational process"
With a high probability, their tactical exercises and exercises are held at ranges near the RPM. Practicing movement, camouflage, and engineering equipment

And live firing on "boilers" away from populated areas in desert steppes.

[Observer2014]

Quote: Spade

Quote: Observer2014

But not always, and not in the entire educational process.

But here it is not at all a fact that this is "the whole educational process"
With a high probability, their tactical exercises and exercises are held at ranges near the RPM. Practicing movement, camouflage, and engineering equipment

And live firing on "boilers" away from populated areas in desert steppes.

To study and to study again! And in no other way. To improve in everything. Otherwise, we will not be "Russia". No, it will be very difficult in learning. Let it be very difficult in learning ... But here in the article about effective personnel, like the conversation was

[Lopatov]

Quote: Observer2014

But here in the article about effective shots like the conversation was

And it's just that the author did not understand anything.
About ours, I wrote "window dressing" because they spent too much on one goal. Which is typical for public training. For "spectacular shots"

Well, during normal live-fire exercises, they try to hit the maximum possible number of targets at a low expense.

[Grim Reaper]

Quote: Observer2014

Discussion on the issue of combat training in open areas: for training or for spectacular shots

If it's about garlic, then looking at the footage from real military operations. The footage of shooting in open areas is only for spectacular shots. And nothing else.

Well, you are so. Even a simple dash shot from the PM. When the boy realizes that he is holding a real combat weapon. It takes a while to forget his eyes. Of course, teachings are needed, even if "ostentatious"
From SW. Alex.

[nnm]

Well, do not tell me ... for practicing actions to automatism, coordination, such exercises are very necessary. And now, conditionally, you are proposing to throw soldiers into the storming of Grozny under the slogan that why teach you in a peaceful atmosphere, you will learn everything better here ...

[Split]

I think in 94 there was no exercise as a fact at all, to 2k ... they pulled it up, but still it didn't work out Even the East was limping

[Split]

Quote: Observer2014

.Open shooting footage only for spectacular shots

Artillery (even cannons, howitzers by definition) shoots from closed positions ... now it's not world 2, when they hit with direct fire ... tanks, of course, are much less often used this way, but they can also in critical situations for support or a barrage. And it doesn't matter if you train in open terrain or in an equipped position - this does not affect accuracy. The gunner does not shoot by eye, the fire is conducted according to ballistic calculations at the point indicated by the reconnaissance and, in most cases, he does not see the target directly. Is there any point in an exercise to waste time on equipping a position? You don't need a big mind here (in a certain sense, of course, knowledge of camouflaging and equipping a position is naturally needed). Such teachings will definitely not show, eni are not effective, although they are of great importance. You won't see them ...

And also consider why there is not enough towed artillery right now? Modern war ... it got out of position - shot and hid, otherwise you will be covered with a return volley. Have you come up with a system that allows you to fire a series of volleys in a short period of time at one "point"? This is when the shells fly along different trajectories and fall at the same time ... Arta had already flushed out of position by the time the shells hit.

ZY So read the materiel for self-education if you are too lazy to rise from the couch

[Lopatov]

Quote: Split

ZY So read the materiel for self-education if you are too lazy to rise from the couch

Try it ...
You contrasted "closed positions" and "direct fire". But this is not the case.
There are firing positions, open, semi-closed and closed
There is direct fire, semi-direct fire and at calculated settings
Shooting at numbered is possible and is sometimes used even from open fire

[Split]

And there are black holes, white, gray ...

[svp67]

Quote: Observer2014

If for garlic.

The author of this article is simply far from the educational process.
Shooting in open areas for morale and learning - yes please. There is a "Shooting Course", with a complete set of training exercises in fire training, where step by step military personnel receive initial skills in handling weapons and learn the rules of shooting. And this is NORMAL.
But there is also tactical training, where both individual servicemen and subunits, units and formations are required to practice combat skills. And the very peak of such training is live-fire exercises and to shoot at them, just like that, from open positions this is no longer a LEVEL. It is necessary to work out everything in the complex. And the stages of concentration, camouflage, equipping positions, quick exit, shooting and leaving.
All modern conflicts show that in an armed confrontation with a slightly armed and trained enemy, any statics, if not supported by good engineering and other support, is similar to death. You need to learn to quickly maneuver and get ahead of the enemy, at least half a step

[Andrey Grad]

In an open-closed area ... but NAT does not use polygons at all, here in Riga last week, right on the streets and in different parts of the city, they started shooting. Here is a video from one area https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfzeXmBaX4M

[Thunderbolt]

Quote: svp67

All modern conflicts show that in an armed confrontation with a slightly armed and trained enemy, any statics, if not supported by good engineering and other support, is similar to death. You need to learn to quickly maneuver and get ahead of the enemy, at least half a step

Such a postulate is worthy for a light reconnaissance company on highly maneuverable buggies with the support of helicopters. And the marching column of a tank battalion group marching to the deployment point looks like a group of moving targets for drones, and therefore for long-range artillery and IS aircraft. The main thing is that all our advantages are covered our cons.
But I want to note to you how much they shouted that the attack submarines are bullshit. The Great Rab will drive them from their trajectory straight into the ditch, but no. NO. - keep all enemy ground in a strong ambush.

[Doccor18]

... it turns out that the Chinese army also prefers not to practice the tactics of stealthily advancing and entering the battle right away, but to create a picture for the TV crew ..

And what about China, a role model? Or is the PLA an indisputable authority? Their tactics and strategy of the military are at a much lower level than in Russia now.
One blunder with a tank column, about a year and a half ago, which "suddenly" ran out of fuel in the mountains, and which was then "thrown" in a helicopter ...

[Nehist]

A gaffe 8.08.08 The Russian Armed Forces does not tell you about anything? So it's better to bloopers on exercises and not in real databases!

[nnm]

Blooper? Did the RF Armed Forces stand for an hour on the outskirts of Tbilisi? At the time, the army did its best. This also applies to the liquidation of the DRG in Kador, and to the suppression of the entire control system of the Georgian Armed Forces ...
It just doesn't compare the army then and now. The army is a derivative of the economy and system of government

[pereselenec]

Shooting in open areas: for training or for spectacular shots

For effective TV shots - in peacetime.
For effective shots from cameras of shock drones of any country that has reached the level of technical development of Azerbaijan - in wartime.

[Free wind]

And how to disguise the equipment now, make a hut, or pretend to be a fisherman's house?

[Starover_Z]

They see it as money. How much is needed for engineering equipment so that caponiers, fuel, time, labor costs are ready ... The market economy drives soldiers out into the open ...

[Interlocutor]

And how to disguise the equipment now, make a hut, or pretend to be a fisherman's house?

Place 100 traps nearby. Also under the net.
Change positions periodically. I can't fight from positions in the sky openly ...

[strannik1985]

AND? Not to fight in the steppe?

[Blue fox]

Spectacular shots are also needed, but you should not get carried away with window dressing. Only when there is an opportunity to show the fighter the power of the weapon entrusted to him, not to the detriment of combat training. I still remember as a cadet, at the demolition class at the end of the school day, we collected all the remaining unused TNT checkers (as usual, the l / s consumption went out with the application submitted to the RAV warehouses) and, under the guidance of the teachers, set a charge in the wormwood (from the previous blasting exercise ice) to the bottom of a lake in a hollow on the landfill and a detonating cord lifted him with all the "proletarian hatred." The effect, of course, was impressive, when the cover raised by the explosion from the bottom of the lake, either from ZIL-131, or from the Urals, flew over the hill along with half of the water from this lake, and pieces of ice for a long time then fell from above, clearly approaching the slope of the valley with their traces in the snow-white virgin soil on the sides of the path trodden to the lake to the company, which, sitting down for this, enthusiastically watched, pulling the SSH-68 deeper over winter hats with earflaps. But "our colonel was born with a grip" (c) the calculation of the safe removal was performed correctly and the ice fragments did not reach us 100 meters. Of course, there was a certain risk, but we also fully appreciated the strength of the explosives. In the future, no one ever took liberties in the classroom, even in relation to an ordinary checker with which, in general, you can do anything you want, what a sin to conceal, some did before, throwing it into the hands of an unexpectedly gaping comrade with a cry "Catch!" until the teacher sees and does not hear (the times were awful in the army, there were not enough teachers, officers, especially those trained and able to conduct classes in the field in the departments, were counted on the fingers of one hand). In the classroom with the fighters, I did not have such an opportunity, but when the warrant officer-instructor with an explosion interrupted the narrow-gauge rail track remaining at the range from the old target field, or we blew up the OZM in the bushes and mowed them down, then there were no questions about safety compliance and doubts about the effectiveness of mines.

[Vladycat]

Teachings are teachings. Everything according to the topic of the lesson, outline plan and so on. Where you just need shooting, where you just need camouflage, with digging a trench, for shooting from a horse while standing. And sometimes all together. And each item is assessed separately. I don't see a "crime" here. Moreover, they can bang at the camera, advertising is never superfluous.

[voyaka uh]

This discussion looks especially funny against the background of a real war.
in Karabakh.
Here and a single tank or howitzer are arguing about how best to hide from the all-seeing drones,
but they talk about massive fire!

[chenia]

Quote: voyaka uh

Here and a single tank or howitzer are arguing about how best to hide from the all-seeing drones,
but they talk about massive fire!

And what?
We sit in the bushes in a waiting area (like a PT res). They determined the target, fly to the selected OP (calculation for full preparation), fire raid and again into the bushes. And the more fire weapons, the faster you can complete the fire mission.

[voyaka uh]

No, alas. Many fire weapons cannot be hidden in the bushes. Will be found from above. Inevitably.
But single and camouflaged fire weapons can survive.
Jump out, exactly (this is the key word!) Shoot - and back into the bushes.
----
Many have not yet realized that the days of the masses of artillery and MLRS are GONE.
It is necessary to hit not the squares, but the targets - and the first time.

[Lopatov]

Quote: voyaka uh

Will be found from above. Inevitably.

Well yes. Unless they commit a war crime and shoot down a drone. This, by the way, even the Israelis learned to do. Although on this site for a long time they convinced everyone that this is impossible in principle.

Quote: voyaka uh

Many have not yet realized that the days of the masses of artillery and MLRS are GONE.

Exactly ....
And all the ukrokarateli who died from artillery strikes actually poisoned themselves with low-quality vodka.

[evgen1221]

Well, such stuffing about the uselessness of training combat actions of any kind at training grounds can only be pushed in by pests paid for.

[nnm]

Then a discussion broke out

To be honest, the discussion was about something else - about the question of the proportionality of the use of forces and means to solve a specific static problem.

[Normal ok]

That in the school (OVAKOLU), then at the training grounds (Tarutino and Shirokiy Lan), they mainly fired from unequipped positions (Soviet times). But, a couple of times they forced me to dig in. And it was very crap))

[TatarinSSSR]

Armored vehicles will not be protected from being hit by high-precision ammunition from the upper hemisphere by any shelter or bruspher. No twigs and bushes attached to the technique. Another thing is the setting of aerosol fumes, jamming and serious protection against enemy air guidance systems - from reconnaissance, corrective and strike UAVs. If you create a non-flight zone for them, then the loss of equipment on the battlefield will decrease significantly. The necessary highly mobile self-propelled field radars with the detection of small targets in 20-30 km and the same highly mobile receiver-missile ZK, with a range of up to 15 km and a height of destruction up to 6 thousand meters, capable of destroying UAVs before they reach the front zone.