Military Review

Unexpected expected war

109

Wars never end in peace. Wars end in victory or defeat. Whatever politicians tell us is an axiom. Everything else that diplomats and leaders agree on after the victory is just derivatives of the actions of the military. The winners dictate their terms of the new world order, the losers agree to the terms of the winners.


Azerbaijan and Armenia are at war today. This is no longer a conflict, this is a real war using all available forces and means. Moreover, the use of heavy weapons indicates that this is a war to destroy the enemy's military potential for a rather serious period. The same can be drawn from the mobilization of human resources in both countries.

Why the war did not come as a surprise


Today, too many people pretend that they did not know about the impending war, that war is something unexpected, which no one wanted. Both Armenians and Azerbaijanis talk about their commitment to peace, about some kind of negotiations, about pity for the victims. Oh, how badly our opponents did! So they suddenly attacked and killed innocent old people and children ...

Someone did not know that the Armenians do not fulfill the terms of the agreements on the liberation of seven regions of Azerbaijan? Note, not the regions of Karabakh, but the regions of another country. Someone did not know about the positions of the parties in the negotiations? About "either our way, or nothing"? Let's not fool ourselves. Over the past two years, Armenia's position has become especially uncompromising. Thanks to the world's second largest embassy of one overseas power.

You watch such speeches and marvel at the ability to mimic some politicians. Indeed, only a few days have passed since the speeches of the leaders of hostile states at the 75th UN session. And so far what Aliyev and Pashinyan spoke about is not forgotten.

Nobody prepared for war? Did everyone expect the negotiations to continue? But what about the video footage of strikes on the enemy? After all, both sides published victorious reports on the success of their units. For a more or less militarily literate person, after watching these strikes, it becomes quite clear that both sides perfectly prepared their positions and created a decent military infrastructure.

Moreover, judging by the video from the battlefield, the contact line is well equipped in engineering terms. Many people can tell the difference between hitting an armored vehicle or detonating AT mines. The active use of UAVs and means of countering unmanned aerial vehicles speaks of knowledge not only of the forces and means of the enemy, but also of the readiness to repel attacks by these means.

Will they fight until complete victory?


I am often asked a simple question from the point of view of a layman: how long can the war between Armenia and Azerbaijan last?

It is both possible and impossible to answer this simple question. It is possible because the states are small enough and have limited resources. It is impossible because everything will depend on many factors, such as the intensity of hostilities, the morale of the army, the possibility of increasing the supply of ammunition and other resources to the troops, etc.

Based on the capabilities of the sides, it must be said that the Armenian army will be able to conduct military operations for a maximum of two weeks. At least, judging by the data from open sources. The Azerbaijani army is in much more favorable conditions in this respect. Especially if you take into account Turkey's statements of assistance and the possibility of supplies with practically no restrictions.

Both sides have an understanding of this fact. Consequently, the tactics of warfare will be different. The Armenian side will do everything to win in a short time or, if there is no military victory, to transfer the war to the next round of negotiations. After the liberation of the territories occupied by Armenia, which today constitute the "security belt of the NKR", Baku will wage a war to completely exhaust the enemy.

As you can see, in both cases we are not talking about Karabakh itself. Despite all the talk about love for the people of Karabakh, the Armenians did not legally make a single step to include the region in their composition. Azerbaijanis, realizing that after the ethnic cleansing of Karabakh, there are almost no chances for the region to join their country, they are also not particularly eager to take the republic under their control. Although they prove in every possible way the fact that legally this region belongs to Azerbaijan.

To be continued


The war, which today takes the lives of Armenian and Azerbaijani soldiers, civilians, children, old people, is not needed by anyone. The Armenian and Azerbaijani peoples do not want war. Many people say that politicians need war. It seems to me that Baku and Yerevan are also against the war. It is the leadership of the countries. At least, the speeches of Aliyev and Pashinyan on Russian television in the 60 Minutes program had just such a subtext.

On the other hand, both states prepared war, more precisely, warriors. Many of us living in Russian cities have already seen the lessons of hatred in action. We saw it on the Internet. Personally, I have repeatedly encountered the corresponding manifestations in the comments to my materials.

Hooray-patriotism, nationalism, hatred in Armenia and Azerbaijan, I think, have become the norm. To this should be added the attempts of religious propaganda in both countries. Now you watch footage from broadcasts from Baku and Yerevan and you understand that this is far from a game. Crowds of volunteers at military registration and enlistment offices, women at blood donation centers, general excitement and thirst for victory. And now to this will be added tears for the dead, a funeral ...

About the purposes of the war


Have you thought about the many materials about the participation of the Turkish army in the war on the side of Azerbaijan? Messages go in a continuous stream. Syrian militants hired by the Turks, Turkish special forces, the F-16 of the Turkish Air Force, which shot down the Armenian Su-25 ... And this at a time when the intelligence capabilities of the world's leading armies make it possible to receive intelligence in real time.

Moreover, the constant statements of the Turkish president about support for Baku in the liberation of the occupied territories. Erdogan is one of the world leaders who, like Vladimir Putin, does not throw words to the wind. This has to be admitted. And if you add to this his eastern intemperance and desire to be the first in everything, it turns out that it is quite simple to make him act rudely.

Russia is now at a crossroads. Between military-political cooperation with Armenia and economic cooperation with Azerbaijan. If we support one side, we will lose the other. Let's get involved in the war - we will receive a Turkish response.

What decision the Russian president will make, I do not know. The ideal would be to force both sides to stop fighting and implement the previous decision of the contact group on Karabakh. Nagorno-Karabakh has existed for many centuries. People have lived there for many centuries. Does it really matter who it belongs to legally? For many decades, Armenians and Azerbaijanis lived in peace and harmony under the Soviet Union. What has suddenly changed now?

Therefore, the continuation really follows ...
Author:
Photos used:
Present Tense, youtube.com (video frame)
109 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. solzh
    solzh 30 September 2020 16: 52
    13
    For many decades, Armenians and Azerbaijanis lived in peace and harmony under the Soviet Union. What has suddenly changed now?

    There is no Soviet Union. At the head of Azerbaijan are pro-Turkish forces. All this led to a new round of hostilities.
    1. Svarog
      Svarog 30 September 2020 16: 59
      33
      Quote: solzh
      For many decades, Armenians and Azerbaijanis lived in peace and harmony under the Soviet Union. What has suddenly changed now?

      There is no Soviet Union. At the head of Azerbaijan are pro-Turkish forces. All this led to a new round of hostilities.

      Russia, which is the successor of the USSR, does not have a coherent policy towards the post-Soviet countries .. This is the problem .. half measures do not work in the long term, only for a short period, and Putin has been in power for 20 years, now you will have to rake up your own policy of half measures .. or do not rake, but bury even further ..
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 30 September 2020 17: 58
        +3
        Quote: Svarog
        Russia, which is the successor of the USSR, does not have a coherent policy towards the post-Soviet countries .. This is the problem .. half measures do not work in the long term, only for a short period, and Putin has been in power for 20 years, now you will have to rake up your own policy of half measures .. or do not rake, but bury even further ..

        Blah blah blah...
        Backfill question: what would you personally do?
        laughing
        Since Yeltsin, Russia has NO winning strategy in this conflict. Generally. And all that the "policy of half measures" can do is to postpone the moment when we lose.
        1. Svarog
          Svarog 30 September 2020 18: 57
          12
          Quote: Spade

          Blah blah blah...

          So you are here for this ... or not?
          Backfill question: what would you personally do?

          No backfill .. I would return the Soviet ideology, the planned economy, while leaving the opportunity to engage in small private business, and then build relationships with the whole world .. Acting in the same way as the USSR did .. Nothing needs to be invented in history, everything was and the most effective should be taken from history and adapted to modern realities.
          Since Yeltsin, Russia has NO winning strategy in this conflict. Generally. And all that the "policy of half measures" can do is to postpone the moment when we lose.

          That's right ... that's how we lose. But this does not mean that there is no way out of this situation; it means that this situation suits the Russian "elite".
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 30 September 2020 20: 53
            +2
            Quote: Svarog
            I would return the Soviet ideology, the planned economy, while leaving the opportunity to engage in small private business, and then I would build relationships with the whole world .. Acting in the same way as the USSR did .. There was no need to invent anything in history, and the most effective must be taken from history, adapting to modern realities.

            laughing laughing laughing
            All of the above will not solve the problems around Karabakh ...

            Quote: Svarog
            That's right ... that's how we lose.

            We are not “losing”, we are “losing”. In the early 90s

            Quote: Svarog
            But this does not mean that there is no way out of this situation; it means that this situation suits the Russian "elite".

            Of course there is a way out.
            Make a time machine. But Putin personally banned ...

            Kindergarten, pants with straps ...
            1. Svarog
              Svarog 30 September 2020 21: 15
              +8
              I would return the Soviet ideology, the planned economy, while leaving the opportunity to engage in small private business, and then I would build relationships with the whole world .. Acting in the same way as the USSR did .. There was no need to invent anything in history, and the most effective must be taken from history, adapting to modern realities.

              laughing laughing laughing
              All of the above will not solve the problems around Karabakh ...

              Of course it will ... but it will take time. Within 20 years, he will definitely decide.
              That's right ... that's how we lose.

              We are not “losing”, we are “losing”. In the early 90s

              Again the 90s .. as early as 30 years ago it was .. I have a grandson since then, and you are all about the 90s .. And what has Putin been doing for 20 years? What have you been doing? Do you think that if everyone has lost, then do we continue to dive into Mr.? When the post-Soviet countries finally take a bite of us, they will start to hack inside the country .. You will also remember the 90s .. Indeed, your reasoning is like a schoolboy ..
              Of course there is a way out.
              Make a time machine. But Putin personally banned ...

              Naturally banned .. all who claim power under criminal cases .. He defined himself as president for life, violating everything that is possible ... and prescribed in the Constitution that he is not subject to jurisdiction ... For some reason, he does not fulfill, but in the end he is satisfied with everyone ... at the same time he inspired the especially gifted that, in fact, he personally is not within the limits .. he is for all the good ..
              Kindergarten, pants with straps ...

              Yes in your style laughing
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 30 September 2020 21: 36
                +1
                Quote: Svarog
                Yes in your style

                When I answer a very specific question "what to do with Karabakh", I start to drive a blizzard about "returning the Soviet ideology"?

                After all, the question is extremely specific ...
                1. Svarog
                  Svarog 30 September 2020 21: 41
                  +2
                  Quote: Spade
                  When I answer a very specific question "what to do with Karabakh", I start to drive a blizzard about "returning the Soviet ideology"?

                  After all, the question is extremely specific ...

                  Specifically now what to do with Karabakh, I do not know .. the situation was brought to a complete impasse .. But I would have followed the CSTO treaty .. the treaty is an agreement and it must be fulfilled, and not wagged.
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 30 September 2020 21: 46
                    +4
                    Quote: Svarog
                    I don’t know what to do with Karabakh right now ..

                    And nobody knows. Including Putin.

                    It's just that back in the early 90s they tried to sit on two chairs, both ours and yours. Thus, Azerbaijan was given to Turkey. And Armenia has never been either pro-Soviet or pro-Russian, and now it only hardly tolerates us as allies. Each time trying to drag us into a war that we absolutely do not need against the Azerbaijanis
                  2. CSKA
                    CSKA 2 October 2020 14: 36
                    -1
                    Quote: Svarog
                    But I would follow the CSTO treaty ... the treaty is a treaty and it must be fulfilled, not wagged ...

                    Wake up. What does the CSTO have to do with it? Someone attacked Armenia? No.
              2. CSKA
                CSKA 2 October 2020 15: 37
                -2
                Quote: Svarog
                Of course it will ... but it will take time. Within 20 years, he will definitely decide.

                Just enchanting nonsense. As usual. Make a planned economy in the Russian Federation and it turns out to solve the Karabakh issue.
                Quote: Svarog
                When the post-Soviet countries finally take a bite of us, they will begin to derail inside the country.

                Well, tell the clever critic who was bitten off by Ukraine, Georgia and Tribalts? What were we supposed to do? To bring in the troops of the smart guy? Didn't you communists create these pseudo peoples of Ukrainians and Belarusians? Didn't you howl and gave out Russian land? And now they still sit and whine about the fact that some countries have gone into another sphere of influence. Well, let's enlighten us with your brilliant ideas how we will return our lands?
                Quote: Svarog
                all who claim power under criminal cases

                What are you? What are the last names?
                Quote: Svarog
                He defined himself as president for life, violating everything that is possible

                Another nonsense. Read the Constitution.
                Quote: Svarog
                Sitting for 20 years, feeding with promises

                And over these 20 years, he raised the standard of living of the population, re-equipped the army, made the Russian Federation the 6th economy in the world, and destroyed terrorists in the Caucasus. What did you communists do? destroyed the country and brought up traitors to your own ideas? Local kings who fled to their lands?
          2. Pashhenko Nikolay
            Pashhenko Nikolay 30 September 2020 21: 18
            0
            You forget that the conflict began in the USSR. Therefore, a return to the old order will not lead to anything. And as you know, history has never turned back.
            1. Svarog
              Svarog 30 September 2020 21: 22
              +3
              Quote: Pashhenko Nikolay
              And as you know, history has never been reversed.

              As you know, history always repeats itself.
              [
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 30 September 2020 21: 34
                0
                Quote: Svarog
                As you know, history always repeats itself.

                I'm afraid the Armenians will definitely not want to "repeat themselves". They will definitely not stand the second Kars treaty

                By the way, why did the cowardly communists admit such ardent anti-Sovietism as "football club Ararat" ??? It is not surprising that 99,5% voted for leaving the USSR with a turnout of 95,05%
            2. grad2308
              grad2308 1 October 2020 07: 43
              +4
              Conflicts began when the USSR gave power to national elites, which were divided into groups began to cut each other, including those that went to ordinary Russian families. I can give many examples, but I will be accused of inciting nat. hate. I will ask one question: "How many Russian families were left without housing, plus they lost family members since the 80s in the so-called fraternal republics and had to return to their parents or to abandoned cinder-block-wooden houses in the outback, or even to an empty place? ".
          3. nekromonger
            nekromonger 30 September 2020 22: 19
            0
            Would you feed Cuba, Africa, for loyalty?
      2. Train
        Train 30 September 2020 21: 47
        0
        They do not have any half measures - all impotent efforts in the international arena are directed only in one vector - EARNING BABL. All other things are not interesting to them. An oligarch-businessman cannot be bad-good by definition: This is a person who makes money, getting rich, for example, for by stealing their country. Everything that is done is done for the personal welfare of enrichment. And now, we see the result of this "policy"; a downed bomber without punishment is a slap in the face, Harcot, and other actions in the face of our country. gave a ride, and now they know - except how to bleat - THEY can't do anything
    2. Oleg123219307
      Oleg123219307 30 September 2020 17: 04
      11
      Quote: solzh
      There is no Soviet Union. At the head of Azerbaijan are pro-Turkish forces. All this led to a new round of hostilities.

      It’s a pity not. And it is a pity that the ideas of returning everything that was wasted do not meet today with support at the top and are considered adventures. Why - adult uncles will scold ... If our leadership was less shaking over accounts in Western banks, and thought more about tomorrow, perhaps there would be no war because all this would be our territory ...
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 30 September 2020 18: 00
        -1
        Quote: oleg123219307
        If our leadership would shake less over accounts in Western banks, and think more about the future, perhaps there would be no war, because all this would be our territory ...

        Aha .... Our ... With our soldiers regularly dying. From the hands of both Armenians and Azerbaijanis.
        Better let them shake over the accounts ...
        1. Oleg123219307
          Oleg123219307 30 September 2020 18: 14
          17
          Quote: Spade
          Aha .... Our ... With our soldiers regularly dying. From the hands of both Armenians and Azerbaijanis.
          Better let them shake over the accounts ...

          Yes. Problem. How could I not have thought. It was necessary, according to this logic, to let Chechnya go. Many guys died there, and it is pointless in your opinion. And Dagestan. And Ingushetia ... And it is better to ruin the country altogether to such a mother, then the partners will be delighted ... And no problems. Everything is quiet, peaceful and well-fed. True, as one state secretary said, 20 million Russians will be enough for them to maintain the mining infrastructure, but these are trifles true. Why seek a place of a great power for your country and people, you can eat leftovers from the master's table ... Azerbaijan was a part of the USSR. And the gas from there was ours. And now hello - competitors. Armenia was in the composition. And there were bases and troops going directly to NATO member Turkey. And in Azerbaijan there were troops and access to Iran. And there were normal overland transport and logistics routes to the Near and Middle East. Now what? In fact, we have NOTHING left in Transcaucasia. No army, no early warning system, no roads, no air defense, no resources, no friends. Tomorrow the Turks, for example, will decide to seize the entire Caucasus - and we will not be able to interfere with anything - it is banal that the troops will not approach. Fortunately, independent Georgia, independent Azerbaijan, independent Armenia ... For a thousand years, our ancestors collected land not so that a bunch of traitors would squander everything for the sake of green papers. This squandering is an insult to the memory of all those generations of our ancestors who, among other things, at the cost of their lives, obtained territories for the country. Of course, it's easy to say - oyyy, but they don't like us there and we will have problems there, we'd better hide like a snail in a house and wait quietly while they eat us ... Only this is the way to nowhere.
          1. aybolyt678
            aybolyt678 30 September 2020 18: 53
            10
            Quote: oleg123219307
            This squandering is an insult to the memory of all those generations of our ancestors who, among other things, at the cost of their lives, obtained territories for the country.

            what can we offer these peoples? our oligarchs? they have their own! How to rehabilitate the idea of ​​socialism, or what to replace it with? if we find a solution we will win
            1. Oleg123219307
              Oleg123219307 30 September 2020 19: 04
              -6
              Quote: aybolyt678
              what can we offer these peoples? our oligarchs? they have their own! How to rehabilitate the idea of ​​socialism, or what to replace it with? if we find a solution we will win

              We can offer the Russian Empire. There is no need to rehabilitate socialism or communism, these ideologies contain too many fundamental contradictions. But a strong, unitary state with great opportunities but also the most severe requirements for the ruling and financial elite can be created. Then there will be a sense in expansion, and in the development of industry, and in the creation of our own independent financial and economic system, and in the competitive space exploration, and in many other things. In the meantime, we are playing with the West in the game "who is better able to spend our money and resources in nowhere" nothing will happen ... Where do we now put everyone in the Caucasus or Ukraine in their place? If we have a northern stream, we have a nuclear power plant in Turkey, we have contracts for the supply of resources to Europe. And just ayay bad Russians ... And what we, in the sense of the people from this have, is unclear. There is no incoming flow of goods from the west, and their papers are of little use to us ... Now, if the Europeans would crawl on their belly and beg to sell them energy or resources, if all countries were ready to squabble for a piece of our military technologies, if there would be a queue at our nuclear power plants for 20 years with an advance payment, then yes ... But for this we need to behave differently. And in order to behave differently, ALL the money and interests of the ruling elite should be only within the country. And the global shitty model that we now use will never allow us to do this ...
              1. aybolyt678
                aybolyt678 30 September 2020 19: 17
                14
                Quote: oleg123219307
                But a strong, unitary state, with great opportunities but also the most stringent requirements for the ruling and financial elite, can be created.

                do you mean the top Russian or aboriginal ?? laughing today I saw Putin concerned about deforestation ... Once again urges to responsibility. In order to realize what you propose, you need to impute the responsibility, the firing squad ...
                1. Oleg123219307
                  Oleg123219307 30 September 2020 19: 31
                  -1
                  Quote: aybolyt678
                  do you mean the top Russian or aboriginal ?? Today I saw Putin worried about deforestation ... Once again he calls for responsibility. In order to realize what you propose, you need to impute the responsibility, the firing squad ...

                  Russian Russian. Aboriginal, as it were, is a tertiary question. First you need to put things in order at home. And this can be done only if you get rid of the temporary workers in power and, yes, introduce the most severe personal responsibility. Do you want to be not a governor but a count and govern your province for life, have more rights and opportunities than ordinary citizens, have a share of taxes, ensure a better future for children? You are welcome. But then do not complain if, having ruined the economy, stealing or allowing to plunder the budget, and allowing even the slightest unreasonable decrease in the standard of living, you will go to the wall. And without the opportunity to escape with money to America. Then the system will work better than now ...
                  1. aybolyt678
                    aybolyt678 30 September 2020 19: 49
                    +8
                    Quote: oleg123219307
                    And this can be done only if you get rid of temporary workers in power and yes,

                    laughing temporary workers are those who have been in power for 20-30 years? the more time the more temporary? no, today there is an evolution of power: those who have real power are not visible, they have learned to disguise themselves.
                    Quote: oleg123219307
                    introduce the most severe personal responsibility.
                    bees versus honey?

                    Quote: oleg123219307
                    Do you want to be not a governor but a count and rule your province for life

                    it's troublesome ... it's easier to have more money and fun in Ibiza ...
                    Quote: oleg123219307
                    And without the opportunity to escape with money to America.

                    Are you talking about socialism with fundamental contradictions or about autarky ??
                    1. Oleg123219307
                      Oleg123219307 30 September 2020 19: 55
                      -3
                      Quote: aybolyt678
                      temporary workers are those who have been in power for 20-30 years? the more time the more temporary? no, today there is an evolution of power: those who have real power are not visible, they have learned to disguise themselves.

                      And they, having spent at least 50 years in power, are still not sure that they will be in prison tomorrow. Hence the denyuzhki in the west and this prostitution policy and corruption on such a scale. And then suddenly tomorrow another group in the presidential administration will win and we, the poor, will be left with nothing. Now it's time to end with this. When officials and business think more about the safety of their chair than about the case, the matter is not done. Once.
                      Quote: aybolyt678
                      bees versus honey?

                      For some reason, large corporations cope ...
                      Quote: aybolyt678
                      it's troublesome ... it's easier to have more money and fun in Ibiza ...

                      Troubled ... Well, what can you do.
                      Quote: aybolyt678
                      Are you talking about socialism with fundamental contradictions or about autarky ??

                      Rather, the second ...
                      1. aybolyt678
                        aybolyt678 30 September 2020 20: 10
                        +8
                        Quote: oleg123219307
                        When officials and business think more about the safety of their chair than about the case, the matter is not done. Once.

                        absolutely right! you yourself approach the issue of ideology, the spiritual matter that unites palaces with squares smile but do not notice it! How to unite officials with business and people ??? without corruption? laughing I answer - only Ideology with legal force by firing squad. What was written above the entrance to the Roman Senate: - "SALUS POPULY SUPREMA LEX" the happiness of the people is the highest law.
                        Need to decide what is Happiness? and indicate the Way, ideological. Unifying. Someone was shot. laughing
                        The main issue today is Ideology. Today Russia is no different from America from the ideological point of view. Only pragmatism, only financial interest ... this is understandable, as well as the fact that betrayal is very pragmatic. Therefore, from the point of view of pragmatism, we will never be able to create an empire, simply no one will believe us, because faith and pragmatism are incompatible.
                      2. Oleg123219307
                        Oleg123219307 30 September 2020 20: 35
                        +2
                        Quote: aybolyt678
                        absolutely right! you yourself are approaching the issue of ideology, the spiritual matter that unites palaces with squares, but you do not notice it! How to unite officials with business and people ??? without corruption? I answer - only Ideology with legal force by firing squad. What was written above the entrance to the Roman Senate: - "SALUS POPULY SUPREMA LEX" the happiness of the people is the highest law.
                        Need to decide what is Happiness? and indicate the Way, ideological. Unifying. Someone was shot.
                        The main issue today is Ideology. Today Russia is no different from America from the ideological point of view. Only pragmatism, only financial interest ... this is understandable, as well as the fact that betrayal is very pragmatic. Therefore, from the point of view of pragmatism, we will never be able to create an empire, simply no one will believe us, because faith and pragmatism are incompatible.

                        Communism has not stood the test of time and reality. One person will not volunteer to work for the common good when the circle is full of idlers. The World of Noon is a fairy tale and nothing more. Unfortunately. I don’t know how anyone, but I was not on the way and with the theory of the official nationality of Uvarov, which held the late Russian Empire together. As for me, religion is a crowd control system and nothing more. But the system is dangerous, unpredictable, prone to self-organization and radicalization. 21st century in the yard. I would like to know myself or the Creator - there are millions of ways and without this opium for the people. Nationalism in our country is also not an option. Multinational, multicultural country. What remains of the known things is actually an external threat that unites the people, the autocracy, to one degree or another, capitalism, not by nightfall, and actually everything. Wherever you spit, there are problems everywhere ... But leaving everything as it is is not an option. They will devour us in 15-20 years.
                      3. aybolyt678
                        aybolyt678 30 September 2020 21: 00
                        +5
                        the world of noon, the Uvarov people ..... some unknown terms, but I'm pretty well-read. I have a scientific degree. It's a pity to interrupt the conversation to get acquainted with insignificant information winked
                        To clarify, there are slightly different views on socialism in our time. First, they return to Karl Ballod, an economist who substantiated the advantages of socialism from a financial point of view and proposed an evolutionary path to it.
                        Secondly, Russia with its Orthodox traditions and experience of socialism, having a technological base today is waiting only for a leader with an idea.
                        Past socialism has made one critical mistake. Based on the purely materialistic teaching of Marx, he tried to create ideological people. And ideological people are created on the basis of spiritual values.
                        Quote: oleg123219307
                        They will devour us in 15-20 years.

                        everybody feels it. That is why Stalin is popular! Socialism is also a way of living together. It is the introduction into the public consciousness of the idea of ​​necessity that will unite for the sake of survival and you need to start. The idea of ​​Socialism fits well with Patriotism, the question is how to inactivate the virus of consumerism in our minds? how not to stoop to the Dogmas of late communism?
                      4. Oleg123219307
                        Oleg123219307 30 September 2020 21: 26
                        +2
                        Quote: aybolyt678
                        the world of noon, the Uvarov people ..... some unknown terms, but I'm pretty well-read. I have a scientific degree. It's a pity to interrupt the conversation to get acquainted with insignificant information
                        To clarify, there are slightly different views on socialism in our time. First, they return to Karl Ballod, an economist who substantiated the advantages of socialism from a financial point of view and proposed an evolutionary path to it.
                        Secondly, Russia with its Orthodox traditions and experience of socialism, having a technological base today is waiting only for a leader with an idea.
                        Past socialism has made one critical mistake. Based on the purely materialistic teaching of Marx, he tried to create ideological people. And ideological people are created on the basis of spiritual values.

                        World of Midday - Strugatskys. Nice, right, communist. Only utopia. It is strange that I have to tell, it seems to be a classic of Soviet literature. The theory of the official nationality Uvarov is the ideological foundation of the Russian Empire of the 19th century. Orthodoxy + Autocracy + Nationality. That's just about what you suggest. Only any religion today, and always actually, is a cesspool of dough, intrigues, interpretations of old books and a huge layer of ignorance. I know a couple of sincerely religious priests who really stand up for the Soul, and although I am an atheist, I understand that my path is not the only one, and looking at them and their flock I see another option. But such units! And they live in terrible poverty because they have neither the time nor the energy nor the money for themselves. But the bulk is a former party activist, as highly spiritual as a piece of brick. Only those who know how to consecrate cars and businesses, and for 3 hours and the same kilo-bucks to serve the funeral service for the dead. And you want to rely on these people in terms of spiritual development?
                        Quote: aybolyt678
                        everybody feels it. That is why Stalin is popular! Socialism is also a way of living together. It is the introduction into the public consciousness of the idea of ​​necessity that will unite for the sake of survival and you need to start. The idea of ​​Socialism fits well with Patriotism, the question is how to inactivate the virus of consumerism in our minds? how not to stoop to the Dogmas of late communism?

                        I do not know. Pure socialism ended very badly. Maybe the Chinese model is better, maybe not. Time will tell...
                      5. aybolyt678
                        aybolyt678 30 September 2020 21: 56
                        +2
                        Quote: oleg123219307
                        Pure socialism ended very badly

                        socialism in its pure form has never existed anywhere. There were only its elements to a greater or lesser extent. Free education, medicine, housing. no one calls Libya socialist under Gaddafi, although these elements were present there, housing for sure. But they call developed socialism the Brezhnev period in which cost accounting, brigade contracts and whatever else ... and these are already elements of capitalism in a planned economy! Socialism under Stalin showed itself very well.
                      6. Oleg123219307
                        Oleg123219307 30 September 2020 22: 14
                        +3
                        Quote: aybolyt678
                        Socialism under Stalin showed itself very well.

                        In a country destroyed to the ground, surrounded by enemies? Yes, he did. Only not at the expense of an idea but at the expense of hopelessness. Do not unite - you will die. First the Second World War, then famine and the restoration of the country, then the Cold War. Permanent crisis. This is also an option, but I do not think that someone will want to live like this now. And as everything calmed down and healed more or less well, everything immediately began to rot. Unfortunately.
                      7. aybolyt678
                        aybolyt678 1 October 2020 08: 18
                        +2
                        Quote: oleg123219307
                        This is also an option, but I do not think that someone will want to live like this now.

                        now we are at a different technological level, therefore it is not offered to live like this smile
                        For a radical change in the socio-economic course, it is necessary firstly: to use the term social justice in our Constitution not only in the preamble (which does not entail any consequences) but also in the articles. And this term should be understood not as the sacred right of private property but as the value of human rights to life. labor, medical care, education, housing, etc.
                        secondly, introduce a progressive taxation scale as an alternative to state ownership of the means of production
                        start with this
                        Quote: oleg123219307
                        In a country destroyed to the ground, surrounded by enemies? Yes showed
                        you take the period 34-41. or 49-56yy. - where was it destroyed?
                      8. Oleg123219307
                        Oleg123219307 1 October 2020 08: 44
                        +1
                        Quote: aybolyt678
                        now we are at a different technological level, therefore it is not offered to live like this

                        From the post-industrial level of industrial development, there are in many ways more problems than benefits in the development of the state. What 100-200 workers used to do, today is done by one CNC machine operator. The result is 6% of people employed in the real sector and 94% of essentially non-producing people who resell each other the services and fruits of labor of those 6%. What kind of social justice are we talking about?
                        Quote: aybolyt678
                        For a radical change in the socio-economic course, it is necessary firstly: to use the term social justice in our Constitution not only in the preamble (which does not entail any consequences) but also in the articles. And this term should be understood not as the sacred right of private property but as the value of human rights to life. labor, medical care, education, housing, etc.

                        And what can this give? Specifically. And then it was smooth on paper ... You can write anywhere you want.
                        Quote: aybolyt678
                        secondly, introduce a progressive taxation scale as an alternative to state ownership of the means of production
                        start with this

                        That is, so. I work 18 hours a day, after graduating from a university, and I get, for example, 100 thousand. My neighbor, a drunk Vasya, with incomplete 8 classes, works for 3 hours on covens just to eat and drink enough and gets 10 thousand. But I will have to pay, say, 50% of taxes, and he is 10% because it is poorer? A great incentive for self-development and business development. In its purest form, the progressive scale is the funeral of the economy and labor productivity. It makes no sense to work harder or better. Principle - work more and we will take more from you. And there is no point in developing a business. Why invest in development if each ruble invested brings less than the previous one? It's easier to go abroad.
                        Quote: aybolyt678
                        you take the period 34-41.

                        Millions of people and a bunch of resources threw themselves into industrialization, because there was an incentive - lagging behind the whole world and a permanent shortage of all manufactured goods, which created an exuberant demand inside the country. It won't work today. Bo, if you build a plant for the production of let's say phones, then while it is built, while specialists are trained, until they are released, until childhood diseases are eliminated, the cost will skyrocket in relation to competitors. And no one will buy. Sedin's machine-tool plant was reconstructed in Krasnodar. Several lards threw in. And now everything is bankrupt, closed and goes under the hammer. Because our machines are not needed on the market. When there were no options in the Union, they took everything, and they took Lada for 8000r too. And how the options appeared - made in China ... And this is the main problem of development today.
                      9. aybolyt678
                        aybolyt678 1 October 2020 09: 31
                        +2
                        Quote: oleg123219307
                        What used to be done by 100-200 workers, today is done by one CNC machine operator.

                        firstly, a CNC machine is a bunch of complex technologies in which specialists are employed, this is the education in which they are prepared, these are raw materials, all sorts of trace elements that must be mined by someone ... If you independently organize the production of CNC machines, then a hundred will work for one worker specialists in other fields
                        Quote: oleg123219307
                        until childhood illnesses are eliminated, the cost will skyrocket in relation to competitors. And no one will buy.

                        I suggest changing the term “cost” to “Price” in this proposal. For value is labor embodied in a commodity, and Price is a monetary expression of value, regulated by supply and demand. Therefore, first to train (or buy) specialists and then build a plant for the production of tomorrow.
                        Quote: oleg123219307
                        And now everything is bankrupt, closed and goes under the hammer. Because our machines are not needed on the market.

                        whatever you produce, it will be cheaper abroad due to the banking policy of setting the exchange rate. The ruble cannot be tied to existing currencies, it must be tied to a kilowatt hour. Let the kilowatt hour dance relative to currencies and the ruble must be stable Ruble = Kilowatt (d) Kilowatt hour is a fairly technological unit, provided by the infrastructure of the Russian economy, and if it is necessary to return a critical amount, it can be returned by a nuclear bomb
                        laughing
                        Quote: oleg123219307
                        And how the options appeared - made in China ... And this is the main problem of development today.

                        China was provided with the technologies of tomorrow by America, while America, following Stalin's example, prefers to buy the best specialists abroad. People are the main value, you need to invest in them, in their development smile
                      10. The comment was deleted.
                      11. aybolyt678
                        aybolyt678 1 October 2020 15: 05
                        +1
                        Quote: oleg123219307
                        The cost of one TSMC production line for the production of 7 nm chips is 3 times more than the entire budget of the Russian Federation. Continuing about buying the technology of tomorrow?

                        of course we continue smile Thanks for the detailed answer, according to CSN statistics in Russia in 2019, 30 million smartphones were sold for half of the budget. How does this situation differ from the existing one 100 years ago, 20-30. with Fordson tractors? Almost nothing. Another technological level. Question: if you spend the budget not on the purchase of the TSMC line, but on its development and production, what will be its price? A monopolist who sells this line to us will immediately build another one with more subtle characteristics and the price of the line we bought will immediately become 50-100 times less. That will correspond to its value. Please note that I share the concepts of Price and Cost. they are not equal and are measured in different categories.
                        Quote: oleg123219307
                        A kilowatt is a very volatile thing. Day / Night, Winter / Summer, Crisis / Growth all affect energy consumption and cost

                        The dollar is a very volatile thing laughing today oil at 40 tomorrow at 100, today gold at 100 tomorrow at 40. Everything revolves around the dollar, which makes oil at first cheap, some people buy it, then expensive, some people sell it, the same with gold. Tie the ruble to gold and the whole country will be pumped out.
                        but not so with a kilowatt! a kilowatt is always a loaf of bread in the oven, night and day. in winter and summer. Many kilowatts cannot be produced, there is nowhere to store them. With a developed industry, the amount of consumed kilowatts increases, so more money in circulation can be thrown away, No matter how other currencies dance about a kilowatt, it will not be possible to say that the ruble has weakened, or the "strong" ruble. Your own industry will be in demand due to its stability ...
                        Quote: oleg123219307
                        Unfortunately, there are no simple solutions.
                        - from the standpoint of ideology, you can force a person to buy exactly his own, and he will be sure that this is his choice and he will respect himself
                  2. ycuce234-san
                    ycuce234-san 4 October 2020 12: 14
                    -1
                    A great incentive for self-development and business development. In its purest form, the progressive scale is the funeral of the economy and labor productivity. It makes no sense to work harder or better.


                    This is rather the thinking of a very poor person than a really wealthy one. The fact is that the main taxes are paid by rich people from their funds to generate capital - from controlled joint-stock companies and corporations, from factories, Facebook and steamers, and not from personal property (toothbrush, Bentley, Corvalol). Therefore, this almost does not affect personal incentives - after work Vasya goes home for a three-ruble note in a microelectric car, and a rich man - on a Lamborghinia or Roll to a country estate. Again, no one selects a personal island, plane, yacht, art collection or oldtimers and interferes with buying - but the desire to have them and stimulates to effective work. It's just that luxury goods take up a few percent of the expenses of rich people, nothing more - the basis of the progressive scale is taxes on corporate property owned by individuals.
                  3. Oleg123219307
                    Oleg123219307 4 October 2020 12: 19
                    0
                    Quote: ycuce234-san
                    This is rather the thinking of a very poor person than a really wealthy one. The fact is that the main taxes are paid by rich people from their funds to generate capital - from controlled joint-stock companies and corporations, from factories, Facebook and steamers, and not from personal property (toothbrush, Bentley, Corvalol). Therefore, this almost does not affect personal incentives - after work Vasya goes home for a three-ruble note in a microelectric car, and a rich man - on a Lamborghinia or Roll to a country estate. Again, no one selects a personal island, plane, yacht, art collection or oldtimers and interferes with buying - but the desire to have them and stimulates to effective work. It's just that luxury goods take up a few percent of the expenses of rich people, nothing more - the basis of the progressive scale is taxes on corporate property owned by individuals.

                    Well, this is not a pure form of a progressive scale about which I wrote, but something like an American model. It works, but it leads to a whole host of other problems, the consequences of which are clearly visible in the current state of the American economy ...
  • Kronos
    Kronos 30 September 2020 21: 23
    -1
    There have been no such empires in history, these are utopian dreams.
    1. Oleg123219307
      Oleg123219307 30 September 2020 21: 28
      +2
      Quote: Kronos
      There have been no such empires in history, these are utopian dreams.

      Once there was no wheel ... Yes, dreams, but utopian. But maybe one day someone smarter than me will figure out how to bring something similar to life.
  • Polymer
    Polymer 30 September 2020 19: 03
    0
    Quote: oleg123219307
    we'd better hide like a snail in a house and wait quietly while they eat us ...

    A lot of "khataskrayniks" appeared here. Have you learned from the "non-brothers"?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 30 September 2020 20: 40
      +5
      Quote: Polymer
      A lot of "khataskrayniks" appeared here. Have you learned from the "non-brothers"?

      Where are you posting from? From Gyumri? Or at least from "Sputnik" Vladikavkaz?

      Are you ready to fight from the couch for the Armenian territorial acquisitions to the last Russian soldier?
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 30 September 2020 20: 33
    +4
    Quote: oleg123219307
    It was necessary, according to this logic, to let Chechnya go

    So they let go. They just could not live without nasty neighbors.
    Therefore, we had to put them under control.

    Quote: oleg123219307
    Now what?

    And now that's it. There are three independent countries. And they will not voluntarily surrender their territory to Russia.
    You can't put milk back into a broken bottle
    1. Oleg123219307
      Oleg123219307 30 September 2020 20: 45
      +3
      Quote: Spade
      So they let go. They just could not live without nasty neighbors.
      Therefore, we had to put them under control.

      And these will not do something wrong by unleashing a war with Turkey at our doorstep?
      Quote: Spade
      And now that's it. There are three independent countries. And they will not voluntarily surrender their territory to Russia.
      You can't put milk back into a broken bottle

      And what, the whole territory that we have seized for thousands of years was received by us voluntarily? With the consent of the entire population, obtained through a crappy expression of will and with the permissive seals of the US Congress? If something is useful for our country and others do not like it - well, it’s a pity, these very others have problems. While we were talking like that, no one to open their mouths at us and did not dare. And those who dared were quickly weaned off. And we were on an equal footing with the West for all the nuances. And now we live by their rules, and all and sundry are crawling our faces on the table for any reason ... NONE of our former republics recognized Crimea! NOT ONE !!! Afghanistan recognized Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua, Syria, Sudan, even the DPRK! But neither brotherly Belarus, nor Armenia, whose representatives are now yelling at the entire Internet, how bad we are not protecting them, nor Kazakhstan, NOBODY! That's the whole measure of respect and influence that we now have in our own environment with our "balanced! Policy. And where will this lead us in the end?"
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 30 September 2020 20: 52
        +2
        Quote: oleg123219307
        And these will not do something wrong by unleashing a war with Turkey at our doorstep?

        You are simply not touched by such a "neighborhood", so you compare the warm with the soft.

        Quote: oleg123219307
        And what, the whole territory that we have seized for thousands of years was received by us voluntarily?

        And?
        Is this a reason for Russian boys to die for the territorial acquisitions of Armenians?

        Quote: oleg123219307
        NOBODY! That's the whole measure of respect and influence

        Exactly. But they also demand. Including "to protect from evil Azerbaijanis who dare to claim their territories"

        Want to get out of the USSR? Voted for it in the referendum? Well, bring it down as it is. And not with a piece of the USSR the size of another Armenia
        1. Oleg123219307
          Oleg123219307 30 September 2020 21: 17
          +2
          [quote = Lopatov] You are simply not touched by such a "neighborhood", so you are comparing warm with soft. [/ quote]
          You are simply not touched by such a "neighborhood", so you are comparing the warm with the soft. [/ Quote]
          I live in the Krasnodar Territory. Has touched. Full measure. Only now I can imagine quite what will begin if the entire Caucasus flares up again through the fault of these "beautiful" woodpeckers on both sides ... [quote = Lopatov] And?
          Is this a reason for Russian boys to die for the territorial acquisitions of Armenians? [/ Quote]
          Of course not. This is an excuse if they are completely too overtook to come and save the unfortunates on both sides of the front from excessive statehood, since they could not cope with it and the responsibility it imposes. [quote = Lopatov] Exactly. But they also demand. Including "to protect from evil Azerbaijanis who dare to claim their territories"

          Want to get out of the USSR? Voted for it in the referendum? Well, bring it down as it is. And not with a piece of the USSR the size of another Armenia
          [/ Quote]
          I agree 100%. I just don't understand why they were given anything at all. They wanted to dump - a suitcase, a station, America. And now they would not shout and blame us for all sins, but rejoice that we do not interfere.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 30 September 2020 21: 41
            +2
            Quote: oleg123219307
            I live in the Krasnodar Territory. Has touched. Full measure.

            And I lived on Sputnik in Vladikavkaz ...
            And how many of your friends were captured? How many times have your parents called you after another terrorist attack? How many times has your house been blown up?


            Quote: oleg123219307
            Just don't understand why they were given anything at all

            What was to be done? Arrange the Armenian Genocide?
            After all, they have hated the USSR since the age of 21, next year they will celebrate the centenary of the Treaty of Kars, so I'll laugh at the Armenophiles ...
            1. Oleg123219307
              Oleg123219307 30 September 2020 21: 49
              +2
              Quote: Spade
              And I lived on Sputnik in Vladikavkaz ...
              And how many of your friends were captured? How many times have your parents called you after another terrorist attack? How many times has your house been blown up?

              Not at all. But my father fought there. And here we have seen enough of these comrades and what they were doing. More than that, I do not want to breed such problems at our house.
              Quote: Spade
              What was to be done? Arrange the Armenian Genocide?
              After all, they have hated the USSR since the age of 21, next year they will celebrate the centenary of the Treaty of Kars, so I'll laugh at the Armenophiles ...

              2 million Armenians. 10 million Azerbaijanis, 4 million Georgians ... The total population is less than in Moscow and its suburbs. And how many problems ... Not to breed the autonomy of the republics, but to build a unitary state. Stir the population a little, build internal integration processes, dissolve national identities instead of protecting and protecting them. You look no Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Georgians, Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians would have existed. There would have been Soviet citizens ...
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 30 September 2020 21: 59
                +2
                Quote: oleg123219307
                Not to dissolve the autonomy of the republics, but to build a unitary state.

                This should have been done a hundred years ago. It is already very and very late.
              2. Oleg123219307
                Oleg123219307 30 September 2020 22: 15
                +2
                Quote: Spade
                This should have been done a hundred years ago. It is already very and very late.

                It's late. If it's peaceful.
  • Svarog
    Svarog 30 September 2020 19: 00
    +2
    Quote: Spade
    Better let them shake over the accounts ...

    Then why did they take Armenia to the CSTO? You have not answered this question, yesterday, in a similar topic, I asked it to you .. If we don’t harness a CSTO member, it’s a shame .. with all that it implies ..
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 30 September 2020 20: 38
      +5
      Quote: Svarog
      Then why did they take Armenia to the CSTO?

      I have no idea.
      Most likely "for the crowd". For with such allies and enemies are not necessary ...
      CSTO - an ordinary fetish, the illusion of "the revival of the USSR"
      From which at one time Armenia fled faster than its squeak. And so it will be here.

      Quote: Svarog
      If we don’t harness a member of the CSTO, it’s a shame .. with all that it implies ..

      And if we harness, it's also a shame. When we are kicked out of Armenia with a kick in the ass "The Moor has done his job, the Moor can leave"
      1. Svarog
        Svarog 30 September 2020 21: 18
        +4
        I have no idea.
        Most likely "for the crowd". For with such allies and enemies are not necessary ...
        CSTO - an ordinary fetish, the illusion of "the revival of the USSR"
        From which at one time Armenia fled faster than its squeak. And so it will be here

        That is, we agree that our foreign policy, like our internal policy, is a failure ...
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 30 September 2020 22: 01
          +4
          Quote: Svarog
          Oh, we agree that our foreign policy, like our internal policy, is a failure ...

          We have no foreign policy.
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 30 September 2020 17: 50
    +1
    Quote: solzh
    At the head of Azerbaijan are pro-Turkish forces. All this led to a new round of hostilities.

    Yes, of course....
  • Beregovic_1
    Beregovic_1 1 October 2020 14: 25
    0
    The massacre in Sumgait, the events of Osh, the massacre with the Chechens in Kazakhstan as a bee ... were there in the USSR. Just before they were stopped, but now they gave the green light: cut each other, show your essence.
  • BAKiDAN
    BAKiDAN 2 November 2020 17: 19
    0
    SERGEY, error, infa is incorrect.
    Everything was fine, everything was fine, the neighbors were all Armenians, everything was super. But it was the visible part of the iceberg, it turns out the Armenians were preparing for this for a long time. All Armenians had their roles, they were trained in all sectors, but of course, we will find out about this today when the secret documents of the Armenians fell into the hands. For a long time I could not believe if the guys with me from the first grade, always together, in all together, could really think of this. Today I hate Armenians, because of them I had to abandon my classmates, the history of my childhood was erased.
    Today, the whole world knows about Armenian fairy tales, that they are the first there, here the first, there are ancient. NOT ONE NATION IN THE WORLD DOES NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT - WHY THEY ARE THE FIRST AND LIKE THIS. Only the Armenians are the first everywhere.
    Now you have food for thought.
  • iouris
    iouris 30 September 2020 16: 53
    +1
    This is a civil war in the FSU. The civil war in the FSU should end with the complete robbery of Eurasia (FSU) by the West (or even just the United States).
  • Tsunoda
    Tsunoda 30 September 2020 16: 59
    +1
    What an interesting war!
    When the Ukrainians fought, I somehow do not remember such shots.
    And here is a real war of the 21st century.
    https://vk.com/video-34740837_456265465
    1. Feliks m
      Feliks m 30 September 2020 17: 10
      -2
      Yes really . video and all that. The Caucasus is not Slavs.
      1. Feliks m
        Feliks m 30 September 2020 17: 15
        +3
        Want to add . The Armenians, if they are screwed, will fight DEATH
        1. 2 Level Advisor
          2 Level Advisor 30 September 2020 17: 28
          0
          Well, then, but the war and fight to the death, and not to the first blood ... although perhaps the Armenian side has stronger motivation ...
          1. Kasym
            Kasym 30 September 2020 18: 13
            +1
            Why do Armenians have stronger motivation? There, by the way, in addition to NK, another 7 regions of Azerbaijan are occupied by Armenians. The main clashes take place there.
            In my opinion, because Ankara stands behind Baku, it may be for a long time. Without the Turks, they would have fought for a couple of weeks and that's it. hi
  • TAMBU
    TAMBU 30 September 2020 17: 01
    +1
    For many decades, Armenians and Azerbaijanis lived in peace and harmony under the Soviet Union. What has suddenly changed now?

    Seriously?
    1. 210ox
      210ox 30 September 2020 17: 40
      +5
      In the mid-eighties he rested in a sanatorium in Stepenovan. I saw a showdown between Armenians and Azerbaijanis there. The latter behaved very insolently.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 30 September 2020 17: 09
    +1
    I don't understand Azerbaijan. They could return their lands peacefully. It was enough just to invest the same money from the defense industry in the work of the media covering Aliyev's proposal to exchange a number of people in international organizations and in the Russian Federation. The Armenians would find themselves under such serious pressure that there would be no benefit from the exploitation of the disputed territories, and sooner or later they would have to return everything. And they could also create an opposition party in Armenia. YES, it's not very predictable, but not bloody and probably cheaper. The Armenians, too - did they not understand what they were running into when they trolled Azerbaijan? I am inclined to accuse the leadership of both sides of unleashing an adventurous war in order to pursue personal gain.
  • Livonetc
    Livonetc 30 September 2020 17: 11
    12
    "Armenians and Azerbaijanis lived for many decades in peace and harmony under the Soviet Union. What has suddenly changed now?"

    He served as an urgent in the Soviet army, along with Armenians and Azerbaijanis.
    I did not know about their conflicts before.
    And I was always surprised that when a conversation came about Armenians or Azerbaijanis,
    the most intelligent and kind of them turned into hissing snakes.
    They hated each other.
    But the company commander was Azerbaijani, and he understood that if problems began on this basis, he would not be good at it.
    Therefore, he kept them in a tight rein.

    The answer to the question asked at the end of the article is simple - this most rigid bridle is gone.
    1. Xnumx vis
      Xnumx vis 30 September 2020 18: 18
      +9
      Quote: Livonetc
      For many decades, Armenians and Azerbaijanis lived in peace and harmony under the Soviet Union. What has suddenly changed now? "

      The Caucasus is a tangle of mutual mistrust and enmity. Georgians do not like Armenians and Azerbaijanis, Armenians hate Georgians and Azerbaijanis .. Azerbaijanis respond to both with fierce hatred. Hatred comes from the darkness of centuries .. The legacy of the Ottoman Empire .. The Armenian Genocide, the age-old fear of Georgians before the Turks and the trailers to the Armenians (cunning, hucksters) .. There the devil himself will not understand the origins of wars. While they were part of the Russian Empire, the USSR-Caucasians gritted their teeth, but lived peacefully .. There was a common enemy, the Russians, united ... The enemy left, the blood feud of the Caucasian peoples towards each other remained with them ..
      1. paul3390
        paul3390 30 September 2020 19: 31
        +6
        Judging by the fact that we, brought up in the spirit of friendship between peoples under the USSR, now, after 30 years, we also do not love either Georgians, Armenians or Azerbaijanis - they still have reasons for mutual hatred. There are only three of them living in our cities. decades - and such a result, but in the Caucasus they have been living nearby for centuries .. No wonder ..
  • CommanderDIVA
    CommanderDIVA 30 September 2020 17: 11
    +7
    Legally, Azerbaijan has full right to NPO and
    all the more so to the regions of Azerbaijan occupied by the Armenians, but if Azerbaijan establishes full control over the NGOs, the Armenians will face a mass resettlement from Karabakh, no matter how beautifully Aliyev says
    1. Avior
      Avior 30 September 2020 17: 35
      +5
      I think this will happen sooner or later.
      As
      1. Azerbaijan has a greater potential in terms of resources and sooner or later realizes it.
      2. Formally, Azerbaijan has all legal grounds.
      The Armenians had to negotiate until Baku increased its potential, they could negotiate autonomy on favorable terms for themselves, as long as they had an advantage. But time has passed.
      The only thing that can change the situation is the active intervention of Russia. But this is not so simple in its consequences.
      1. Kasym
        Kasym 30 September 2020 18: 22
        +5
        Now it is useless to intermeddle. Baku has strong support in the face of the Turks and feels its superiority - therefore, it will not agree to reconciliation. It remains only to wait until they "wash themselves with blood" (both sides must suffer heavy losses). Then a "peacemaker" will be needed. And besides the RF-CIS, there is no one to contact. hi
        Greater resource potential can be leveled by the terrain. There are many examples: in Afghanistan, the Panjshir Gorge could not be taken under control for a long time, although we had a huge advantage in weapons and resources.
    2. Egor53
      Egor53 30 September 2020 18: 18
      +5
      "but if Azerbaijan establishes full control over NPOs, Armenians will face a massive resettlement from Karabakh, no matter how nicely Aliyev speaks"

      Didn't the Armenians expel all Azerbaijanis from Nagorno-Karabakh after they captured it?
      Evicted, and everyone. What do they want now?
    3. Bagatur
      Bagatur 30 September 2020 18: 31
      +5
      Exactly! But Armenians are also not white and fluffy. They staged a sweep of Karabakh 30 years ago ... the Azerbaijani is now preparing for revenge. This fight is not so harmless! You can reach the massacre ...
  • Free wind
    Free wind 30 September 2020 17: 14
    -3
    In Armenia, diesel fuel will soon end, everything will end. Iran will not sell fuel, that's all.
    1. Feliks m
      Feliks m 30 September 2020 17: 25
      +1
      will sell. turn difficult to bring.
  • Revival
    Revival 30 September 2020 17: 21
    +6
    "Nagorno-Karabakh has existed for many centuries. People have lived there for many centuries. Does it really matter who it belongs to legally?"

    Is the author very naive or ...?
  • Just a Traveler
    Just a Traveler 30 September 2020 17: 22
    +4
    Quote: CommanderDIVA
    Legally, Azerbaijan has full right to NPO and
    all the more so to the regions of Azerbaijan occupied by the Armenians, but if Azerbaijan establishes full control over the NGOs, the Armenians will face a mass resettlement from Karabakh, no matter how beautifully Aliyev says


    There will be no other option.
    Either genocide or mass deportation to Armenia.
    These Inchae nations will never live peacefully next to each other.
  • Sergey39
    Sergey39 30 September 2020 17: 27
    +2
    Armenia has only one way out - to completely squeeze out Soros' NGOs and Americans in general and come under the protectorate of Russia.
  • donavi49
    donavi49 30 September 2020 17: 38
    +1
    Today the Armenians are somehow depressed. No content at all. sad Or old. Or even left. Or applications. Or patriotic. By the way, with the plane here it is 100% true-fact, though in reality it is not Rafal / Eurofighter - but the AN-2 of the border service of Azerbaijan.


    But on the other hand, the opposite popper content from the UAV.






    Plus a few more painful arrivals from the Harop:


  • Gardamir
    Gardamir 30 September 2020 17: 52
    +1
    The author has a pro-Azerbaijani position. Nothing personal, but the words about the occupied territories can be pasted anywhere.
    1. Avior
      Avior 30 September 2020 17: 59
      +6
      What confuses you? The troops of Armenia without legal grounds are on the territory, which everyone, including Armenia, recognizes as the territory of Azerbaijan. If you don't be honest and call things by their proper names, then you need to honestly describe the situation.
      Another thing is the reason why they are there, you can talk about them, but this does not change their status.
    2. Egor53
      Egor53 30 September 2020 18: 22
      +5
      This is why "The author has a pro-Azerbaijani position." ? He just writes the truth. We, Russians, do not need to make angels of Armenians in white slippers just because they are Christians.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  • Polymer
    Polymer 30 September 2020 19: 00
    +2
    For many decades, Armenians and Azerbaijanis lived in peace and harmony under the Soviet Union. What has suddenly changed now?

    Weird question. Or is the author not aware that the USSR is long gone?
    The conflict itself began not after the collapse of the USSR, but as soon as the power of the Union gave up the slack. This suggests that there were contradictions, but they were not allowed to turn into active confrontation. But this also suggests that the Soviet government really brought peace to the peoples who joined it. Where persuasion did not help, she did it by force. And rightly so, in my opinion.
  • Alan Bagaev
    Alan Bagaev 30 September 2020 19: 05
    +1
    Yes, the situation is almost stalemate, Russia cannot directly intervene, which can stop the opposing sides a big question. Further it will be even more difficult, now it is only clear that neither side will achieve a quick victory.
  • sergo
    sergo 30 September 2020 19: 31
    +2
    Vladimir Putin does not throw words to the wind
    just the same Putin is scattering words left and right. Both in foreign and domestic policy. For 20 years more than one volume can be written.
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 30 September 2020 21: 22
    +2
    Our policy in this direction could be described as - We give you nice words and loans, and you come to us for good reasons, sometimes vote on important issues (for a separate gesheft) and don't be too naughty.
    Strictly speaking, this conflict has nothing to do with the Russian Federation. This is a conflict between two sovereign states over absolutely non-disputed territories (from a legal point of view).
    In this case, our appeals for peace can melt "Potbelly stove", at the best. And besides that, we have no special levers - except to make every effort to ensure that the civilian population does not suffer on both sides.
  • north 2
    north 2 30 September 2020 22: 04
    +1
    in my opinion, if Putin found an effective head of the Defense Ministry Shoigu in time, so with a timely
    After the successful actions of the Foreign Ministry in resolving the Syrian conflict, Russia's failures in foreign policy in the former republics of the USSR are obvious. The Foreign Ministry had enough time to force Azerbaijan and Armenia to always peacefully solve the NK problem. There was enough time to solve both the LPR and DPR problems. By the way, Lavrov's office does not understand that the LPR and DPR in the form in which they want to leave Ukraine and not recognize their independence, in the future there is an analogue of Nagorno-Karabakh for Russia.
    strong influence in the former republics of the USSR, then only the threat of the carrot and not the offers of the carrot could
    to ensure its interests among those who fled once, having already cheekily eaten a carrot in the form of several decades of riding around Rossi's neck as the union republics of the USSR. And Lavrov all the time ... our
    partners, our partners, our partners ...
  • Jünger
    Jünger 30 September 2020 22: 11
    -3
    Yes to hell with them - and with those and others. We will lose some side ... Yes, at least both. From them Russia is confused like a goat of milk. Let them fight - at least they finally get down to business, not all of them sell tomatoes.
    The main thing for us is not to get involved in this, but it is better to exclude Armenia from the CSTO retroactively, or let Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan harness them for them. Good white people have nothing to catch there.
    Although, if there is a possibility to undermine the Azeri pipeline, then it is high time to raise the price of oil / gas.
    And you can strengthen friendship with Erdogan on this deluge. To tell him - "Bro Erdogan, let your nukers take Karabakh, it is parallel to us" And this is actually so - we have it all to one place. And the Turks will have bakshish and international friendship with us.
    At the same time, give Abkhazia to the Georgians on the sly. There is zero sense from all this ballast.
    1. TatarinSSSR
      TatarinSSSR 30 September 2020 23: 47
      0
      Ballast is just like you, keyboard experts - "Give everything, but be friends with everyone."
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. TatarinSSSR
          TatarinSSSR 1 October 2020 21: 38
          0
          You don’t need to give me advice if you don’t want to get advice on where to go. And what about the peoples whom you called "shv .... yu" - so take it and repeat it with their representatives. How long will you last as a healthy person? I think you will become disabled very quickly. You humiliate yourself, making yourself a hero on the Internet, offending entire countries. Although now technology allows you to find a person on the Internet.
          1. Jünger
            Jünger 1 October 2020 22: 11
            -1
            Quote: TatarinSSSR
            And about the peoples whom you called "shv .... yu" - so take it and repeat it with their representatives

            Firstly, an intelligent person does not pull a mad dog by the tail for no reason.
            Secondly, I did not call the peoples trash, but the states to which Russia owes nothing, but quite the opposite.
            And advice, I see, you need - without them you somehow hardly perceive.
  • Boris ⁣ Shaver
    Boris ⁣ Shaver 30 September 2020 23: 04
    0
    Let's get involved in the war - we will receive a Turkish response.

    Turkish "otvetka" at any aggravation of the situation: "Oops, and we are in NATO!"
    The article is rather incoherent and, in many ways, not objective. Facts are drawn, conclusions are drawn. The author is clearly not concerned with the interests of Russia.
  • TatarinSSSR
    TatarinSSSR 30 September 2020 23: 43
    +3
    Russia is pursuing a policy of non-intervention and attempts to reconcile everyone and everything, for one reason - the lack of a strong economy. When your country is economically weak and is being torn apart by thieves-officials, then you only think about how to keep people from mass protests throughout the country, throwing small handouts and promises of a bright future to them. It won't work for a long time, but the constant feeding of the anti-national dogs, the National Guard and the cops, so that they would then drive these people into the stall, time is still dragging on. And here there is no time for powerful ultimatums and forceful decisions in the direction of foreign policy, even if these are neighboring small countries, your former republics. Russia has already depleted its budget for Donbass and Syria, and it will not pull one more turmoil at its borders. Especially when there is a danger of falling out with Turkey - and these are direct huge losses of the Kremlin's business oligarchs. So you cannot envy Armenia now.
    1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
      Boris ⁣ Shaver 1 October 2020 00: 25
      +4
      Quote: TatarinSSSR
      Russia has already depleted its budget for Donbass and Syria

      Yeah, drained. Not to Donbass or Syria. The same Turkey is fighting at least with half the economy and something does not look depleted yet.
      And what, then? Well, for example, remember how many trillions it cost us to clean up the banking sector. Or read the assessments of Academician Glazyev regarding how much money is being withdrawn from our country. Or remember our NWF, which has grown, let's say, to an indecent size (that's where our poverty is). The size of the NWF looks indecent because this fund is essentially money torn from the country's economy, which, at the same time, is invested in the economies of other countries. Moreover, officially, they are investing in projects that are too risky for placing international reserves. Those. the probability of the NWF money returning from there is often extremely low. The curtain.
  • svoit
    svoit 30 September 2020 23: 51
    0
    Quote: Egor53
    Evicted, and everyone. What do they want now?

    Do not forget that at that time ethnic cleansing took place throughout the territory of Armenia and Azerbaijan, and in Azerbaijan it is stronger. But now, not 25 years ago, the UN troops will enter and Azerbaijan will not see these territories as its ears.
    1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
      Boris ⁣ Shaver 1 October 2020 00: 08
      0
      Quote: svoit
      UN

      UN? Is the old woman still alive?
  • g1washntwn
    g1washntwn 1 October 2020 07: 04
    +1
    Historically, under any empires, Karabakh tried to be independent from the squabbles of its neighbors.
    There, first of all, people themselves must decide. Therefore, at the first stage, it is necessary to force all the warring parties to peace, at the second - the invitation of observers from the UN Security Council and a referendum with three points:
    and. Azerbaijan
    b. Armenia
    at. Independence
  • Victorm
    Victorm 1 October 2020 07: 43
    -2
    Quote: solzh
    For many decades, Armenians and Azerbaijanis lived in peace and harmony under the Soviet Union. What has suddenly changed now?

    There is no Soviet Union. At the head of Azerbaijan are pro-Turkish forces. All this led to a new round of hostilities.
    Yeah, a graduate of MGIMO, the son of a general of the KGB and the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU, a general of the KGB of the USSR - pro-Turkish forces ...
  • The comment was deleted.
  • nobody75
    nobody75 1 October 2020 09: 14
    +2
    As the conflict progressed, puppeteers began to appear on the scene.
    Admiral Stavridis - the architect of the Balkan warriors - noted an article in Bloomberg:
    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-09-30/armenia-azerbaijan-war-will-draw-in-russia-turkey-u-s?srnd=opinion
    He outlined the "surface" goals of the war as follows:
    An approach might begin with some symbolic return of land to the Azeris

    Everything is like in the Balkans ... Give the land, at least symbolically.
    The "underwater" goals of the war are to put the new "Chernomyrdin" at the negotiating table. Even the site for signing the surrender has been designated - the so-called "Minsk Group", which is going to include Turkey ...
    A new version of the Minsk group that would include Turkey could build confidence for a deal. Putin is close to the leaders of both countries, although Russia tilts strongly to fellow Christian Orthodox Armenia. Perhaps the US, Russia and Turkey, working together, could convince the two sides to turn away from the catastrophic path they are headed down.

    How many knots can you cut with one blow ?! A meeting in Minsk of high-ranking diplomats will tie the hands of "Mad Luka". Having given Azerbaijan back to the Turks, it is possible to obtain concessions from them on the maritime border with Greece. And pan-Turkists and "warriors of jihad" will subsequently cut Aliyev and all his post-Soviet fraternity. They are not imprinted by his daddy's gebul past. For them, he is nobody and there is no way to call him ... The state of the Ottomans was conquered with a saber and can be kept with a saber.
    Russia will be required to recognize the status quo in the Transcaucasus and will be offered to cede a share in the Turkish and northern streams to the Amers ... Everything is like under Viktor Stepanovich ...
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 1 October 2020 09: 30
    -1
    The USA made this mess by shoving Armenia in the back. It will be quite fair if we look at what is happening from the position of strict non-interference. But I will repeat - we should begin the mass deportation of Armenians and Azerbaijanis. War is the business of these countries. She should not enter us.
  • aybolyt678
    aybolyt678 1 October 2020 10: 16
    0
    Quote: oleg123219307
    I work 18 hours a day, after graduating from a university, and I get, for example, 100 thousand. My neighbor, a drunk Vasya with incomplete 8 classes, works for 3 hours on covens only to eat and drink enough and gets 10 thousand.

    you pay 13%, Vasya does not pay anything, Miller pays 70%, who doesn’t pay to shoot - the country blooms
  • Alkatrass A
    Alkatrass A 1 October 2020 12: 12
    0
    I just have one question for the President of Azerbaijan Republic .. "Dear" Ilham Heydarovich, for 5 years now you have been shouting on all channels, all over the world that if Russia does not support Armenia, then in 24 hours you will return all Karabakh, question Well, where, then, is your vaunted army? The 5th day of the war is going on, and you have not even returned Karabakh, you have not even been able to break through the defense line of Artsakh. I am sure of one thing, now this is how your adventure will end, you and your sofa askars will again shout to the whole world that Russia fought instead of you. In principle, as always.
  • nobody75
    nobody75 1 October 2020 15: 51
    +1
    The Minsk Group made a joint statement.
    http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/64133
    President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin, President of the United States of America Donald Trump and President of the French Republic Emmanuel Macron, representing the OSCE Minsk Group co-chairing countries, condemn in the strongest terms the escalation of violence taking place on the contact line in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict zone.

    We mourn the victims and express our condolences to the families of those killed and wounded.

    We call for an immediate end to hostilities between the armed forces of the parties involved.

    We also call on the leaders of Armenia and Azerbaijan to immediately undertake commitments in good faith and without setting preconditions to resume negotiations on the essence of the settlement with the assistance of the OSCE Minsk Group co-chairs.

    The author is wrong. Diplomatic battles are the apotheosis of war ...
    Regarding the military and economic potential of the warring parties ...
    There lived "rich" Yugoslavia and impoverished Albania ... And whose is Kosovo now?
    When you play chess with yourself, you can determine the winner in advance .... or you can choose "in the course of the play". And victory in such a game is not the main thing ...
    What is more interesting for Erdogan - beggar Karabakh or rich Azerbaijan? Can Pashinyan "surrender" Karabakh to get rid of political opponents? And what if the "Karabakh clan" "merges" Karabakh to accuse Pashinyan and his "soros" of defeat? Will Russia and Iran want to see Turks in the Caspian?
    There are a lot of options ...
  • nobody75
    nobody75 1 October 2020 16: 35
    0
    The fact that Gagik Tsarukyan was arrested on September 25.09, speaks in favor of the fact that Azerbaijan was provoked into a military adventure (in addition to external players), among other things, by internal Armenian squabbles ... Although this may be a coordinated game of the special services, since August 20.08 Turkey was killed by "Guli" ....
    PS
    But what about me without my favorite cognac "Noah" ???
  • nobody75
    nobody75 1 October 2020 17: 22
    0
    Only in the morning I wrote a post about the possible goals of the "Minsk Group" gatherings in Karabakh and ....
    Permit for operation of the Nord Stream 2 project is granted by the Danish Energy Agency
    https://en-press.ens.dk/pressreleases/permit-for-operation-of-the-nord-stream-2-project-is-granted-by-the-danish-energy-agency-3039449
    The Danish Energy Agency has granted a permit to Nord Stream 2 AG to operate a section of the Nord Stream 2 pipelines on a number of conditions to ensure a safe operation of the pipelines. Conditions in the construction permit of Nord Stream 2 of 30 October 2019 are maintained to the extent that they have not yet been met or are relevant in connection with operations phase.

    Thus, a permit to operate the route has been issued and the construction requirements remain in effect.
    How quickly the "wheel of fortune" spun
  • mark_rod
    mark_rod 5 October 2020 16: 19
    0
    Quote: CSKA
    And over these 20 years, he raised the standard of living of the population, re-equipped the army, made the Russian Federation the 6th economy in the world, and destroyed terrorists in the Caucasus.

    What did he pick up there? The level of what? In 2004, I could buy more with my officer's salary than now! It is noticeable how he lifted in the opposite direction! What did he do with the economy there? 6th place in the world? And how did you not ask yourself a question? Due to the depreciation of the ruble! Any economist will say ... And he rearmed the army also notably - in the armies of the Armat horde and in the sky there is no place from the Su-57x! Look smaller zomboyaschik, maybe then you will see a more real picture.
  • maiman61
    maiman61 3 November 2020 17: 04
    0
    But if China seized 20% of the territory of Russia, then in the name of what would the Russian soldiers fight, liberating their land? In your opinion, only politicians would need this, but the Chinese and Russian people do not need it. After all, the guys would die from both sides! Did I understand correctly?
  • Yakovlevich
    Yakovlevich 5 November 2020 12: 11
    0
    Once, in the 60s ?!, the Armenian radio from Baku was asked the question - what is the most cuirassy city? The answer is predictable - YEREVAN !!!!! And they immediately added ... - But how can you destroy it? And the answer, after the Stanislav's pause, was very tolerant - Baku and Ankara are also beautiful cities !!!!!