Military Review

Napoleonic marshals: Berthier, Bessières, Mortier and Lefebvre

101
Napoleonic marshals: Berthier, Bessières, Mortier and Lefebvre

Napoleon surrounded by his marshals and generals


Others died in battle
Others cheated on him
And they sold their sword.
Lermontov


During the First Empire, there were 26 marshals. It is noteworthy that all these marshals appeared not thanks to Napoleon, but thanks to the revolution. It was the revolution that helped rise to many talented people who rose exclusively on their own, thanks to their courage and valor. Marshals Ney, Murat, Bessières, Berthier, Jourdan, Soult, Suchet, Masséna, Lannes were from the common people. Napoleon said that each of his soldiers "carries a marshal's baton in his knapsack." [/ I]

Berthier, Prince of Neuchâtel


I'll start the story with Alexander Berthier, whom Napoleon called his "right hand"... The future chief of staff was born on November 20, 1753 in the family of an engineer-geographer. Received a good education, mainly in mathematics. From a young age he drew up maps of the royal hunt for Louis XVI, which were distinguished by accuracy, purity and beautiful design.

Berthier entered the Lorraine Dragoon regiment - the best cavalry school of that time. He took part in a campaign in America, being at the headquarters of the Count of Rochambeau. He was present in the naval battle at Cisapeake, in the expedition against Jamaica and reconnaissance at New York. Returning to France, Berthier took up the post of senior officer at Segur's headquarters. Then, having risen to the rank of colonel, he inspected the military camps of the King of Prussia. During the revolution, he served as chief of staff at Lafayette, and then at Besanval. Berthier met General Bonaparte in the Italian campaign. Napoleon immediately recognized Berthier's talent. From that time on, the joint work of Bonaparte and Berthier began. Napoleon said: "... he had an indecisive character, not very suitable for commanding an army, but he possessed all the qualities of a good chief of staff.".

Napoleon made Berthier Marshal on May 19, 1804, the day after he became Emperor of the French. In 1806, having acquired the Swiss city of Neuchâtel, Napoleon made Berthier the sovereign prince of Neuchâtel. In 1809, for his contribution to the victory at Wagram, he gives him the title of Prince of Wagram.

In 1812, Berthier did not have a moment's rest. He slept in full dress, for he was very often woken up, and Napoleon demanded that the chief of staff come to him dressed according to etiquette. Berthier showed extraordinary foresight, accuracy and precision in the execution of orders. But even with such a wonderful performer, everything did not always go smoothly. Berthier simply could not withstand the difficulties of the campaign, which caused frequent anger on the part of his emperor. He begged Napoleon to take him with him when leaving for Paris, but the emperor responded evasively.

On accession to the throne of Louis XVIII, Berthier betrayed his emperor. The King made him Marshal of France and awarded him the honorary title of Captain of the King's bodyguards. He went to his father-in-law, the Prince of Bavaria. Standing on the balcony, Berthier experienced an apoplectic stroke, after which he fell from him and crashed.


Portrait of Berthier by Antoine-Jean Gros in the uniform of a republican general

Bessières, Duke of Istria


Jean-Baptiste Bessière was born on August 6, 1768 in the city of Preisac. He began his service as a private in the army of King Louis XVI. At the end of 1792 he entered the 22nd regiment of horse rangers. In the Italian campaign, he showed his bravery at the Battle of Roverdo by capturing two Austrian cannons. In another battle, Bessières desperately rushed at an enemy battery, but fell from a horse killed by a cannonball. Rising up, he again rushed to the enemies and captured the cannon. His diligence was noticed by General Bonaparte, who made him the chief of his bodyguards.

Bessières assisted Napoleon on the 18th and 19th Brumaire. When Napoleon became emperor, on May 19, 1804, he made Bessières a marshal. In the campaign of 1805, he distinguished himself in the battle of Austerlitz, breaking through the enemy center with the help of cuirassiers, capturing several guns. In the Battle of Preussisch Eylau, Bessières desperately rushes to the enemy's right flank. During the battle, two horses died under him.

But his main successes were made in Spain. In 1808, Napoleon sent Bessières to Spain, placing the 2nd corps under his command. On July 14, he defeated the twenty thousandth Spanish army, which was under the command of Joaquin Blake. Continuing in the same spirit, Bessières brought the Battle of Burgosse and Somo Sierra to victory. This year Napoleon granted Bessières the title of Duke of Istria.

In the 1809 campaign of the year, Bessières commanded all the cavalry of the Guards. Under Essling, he showed extraordinary courage and, through many cavalry attacks, frustrated the Austrian troops. During the battle of Wagram, he was wounded by an artillery cannonball. Seeing the fall of their leader, the guards mourned him with sincere tears, thinking that he had died. There was no end to the enthusiasm among the troops when it became known that the marshal had survived.

In 1812 he commanded the Guards Corps. At Borodino, it was he who begged Napoleon not to touch the guard. During the retreat, he showed courage, cheering the troops. In 1813 he commanded all the cavalry. On May 1, in the battle of Rippach, he was mortally wounded by an enemy cannonball that hit him right in the chest. "How popular he was among the rank and file soldiers, - K. Marx wrote about him, - can be judged by the fact that it was considered advisable not to inform the army about his death for some time "... But, unfortunately, Bessières did not shine with the talent of the commander. He was an excellent performer, but he was not adapted to independent tasks.


Jean-Baptiste Bessière

Mortier, Duke of Trevis


Edouard Mortier was born in Cambrai in 1768. He grew up in the family of a landowner, elected to the states general by a deputy from the third estate. At 23, Mortier entered the Legion of the Department of the North. He took part in the battles of Mons, Brussels, Louvain, Fleurus and Maastricht, where he showed extraordinary ingenuity and resourcefulness. On May 31, 1796, he defeated the Austrians, throwing them over the Asher River. On July 8th he occupied Giessen and took part in the siege of Frankfurt.

In 1799 he acts on the Danube, from there he goes to Switzerland and makes his contribution to the expulsion of the enemy from the Cisalpine Republic. In 1803, Napoleon instructs Mortier to make a campaign against Hanover. The campaign ended with the annexation of Hanover to France. On May 19, 1804, Napoleon made Mortier a marshal. In 1807, for his successes in the battle of Friedland, he was awarded the title of Duke of Treviso.

In 1812 he commanded a young guard. Duronnel recommended to Napoleon that Mortier be appointed mayor of Moscow. The emperor agreed to this proposal, and Duronnel himself delivered the order to the Duke of Treviso to take control of Moscow. In 1813, at the head of the young guard, Mortier participated in the battles of Lutzen, Bautzen, Dresden, Wachau, Leipzig and Hanau. In 1814, Mortier defended Paris.

He went over to the side of Louis XVIII, for which he was awarded the title of peerage and the Order of St. Louis. During the Hundred Days, he joined Napoleon, having received an order to protect the northern and eastern borders. In November 1815 he entered the tribunal that tried Marshal Ney, and, naturally, spoke out against. In 1830 he joined the government of Louis Philippe, and in 1834 was appointed Minister of War.

Mortier was mortally wounded by shrapnel and died soon after. This happened on July 25, 1835 during the assassination attempt on Louis Philippe.


Edouard Mortier, Marshal of the Empire and Duke of Treviso

Lefebvre, Duke of Danzig


Francis Joseph Lefebvre was born in the city of Ruffake on October 25, 1755. When Lefebvre was 18 years old, he lost his father, so he went to live with his uncle, who was a priest. His uncle gave Lefebvre a spiritual education, but he was not particularly interested in it. Soon he entered the army as a private, rising to the rank of sergeant. He showed great courage in guarding the royal family returning from the Tuileries to Saint-Cloud. In 1793, Lefebvre was promoted to colonel for his great courage, and a year later - to divisional general.

In 1796 at Altenkirchen, he captures 4 banners, 12 cannons and 3.000 prisoners. In 1798, in connection with the death of the outstanding General Ghosh, he assumed temporary command of the army of Sambra and Meza. Returning to Paris, he was appointed manager of the 14th arrondissement. Lefebvre actively helped Napoleon in the coup of the 18th Brumaire, for which he became a senator. On May 19, 1804, Lefebvre received the marshal's baton. Distinguished at the siege of Danzig. During the siege, Lefebvre showed great ingenuity and resourcefulness. The fortress surrendered on May 24, 1807. Lannes and Oudinot, who helped Lefebvre in the siege, refused to occupy the fortress, claiming that all the credit rests with Lefebvre. For the capture of the fortress, Lefebvre received his title of Duke of Danzig.

A year later, the duke was sent to Spain to command the 4th corps. On October 31, he won a landslide victory over Black at Durango. The next year he was sent to Germany, where he participated in the battles at Tann and Erbersberg. Lefebvre made a great contribution to the victory at Wagram. In 1812 he commanded the old guard. In 1814 he took part in the battles of Arsy-sur-Aub and Champobert. Was introduced to the Russian Emperor Alexander I after Napoleon's abdication.

Louis XVIII elevated him to the dignity of a peerage. The duke died on September 14, 1820, outliving his 12 sons.


Francis Joseph Lefebvre

To be continued ...

List of used literature:

1. Military K. A. Napoleon I and his marshals in 1812, M., 1912.
2. Dzhivelegov A. K. Alexander I and Napoleon. Moscow: Zakharov, 2018 p.
3. Troitsky N. A. Marshals of Napoleon // New and newest история... 1993. No. 5.
4. Colencourt A. de. Napoleon through the eyes of a diplomat and a general. Moscow: AST, 2016 p.
Author:
Photos used:
en.wikipedia.org
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  1. Sergey Valov
    Sergey Valov 1 October 2020 18: 29
    +3
    Bessières in 1812 commanded not the Guards Corps, but the Guards Cavalry.
  2. polpot
    polpot 1 October 2020 18: 36
    +3
    I agree with the classic Lannes and Bernadotte, both marshals and what a different fate.
  3. Undecim
    Undecim 1 October 2020 18: 38
    13
    Napoleon said that each of his soldiers "carries a marshal's baton in his knapsack"
    Napoleon did not say this. This maxim is composed of sayings of several people, moreover, the originator is unknown.
    According to the notes of the attending physician Napoleon O'Meara, published in 1822, the exiled emperor, being on the island of St. Helena, once said that under him "every soldier hoped to become a general."
    In Madame de Stael's "Reflections on the French Revolution," published in 1818, we find a phrase about that. that under Napoleon "a common soldier could hope to become a marshal."
    But about the marshal's baton in a knapsack - this is Louis XVIII. in 1819 the king visited Saint-Cyr. He was accompanied by Marshal Oudinot, who bore the title of Duke of Reggio. Ludovic liked the performances of the pupils so much. that he applauded several times and then turned to the pupils of the Saint-Cyr school with the words: “My children, I am as pleased as possible; remember that there is no one among you who does not carry the marshal's baton of the Duke of Reggio in his knapsack. it depends on you".
    And then a "summary" quote from an unknown author appeared.
    By the way, in the collection of A.A. Barsov's 1770 edition contains a Russian proverb "Every soldier wants to be a general, and a sailor wants to be an admiral."
  4. Gato
    Gato 1 October 2020 18: 44
    +4
    Everything that can be said about the Napoleonic marshals was said by E.V. Tarle (or not he?), But in essence it is true:
    these are still zeros, which amounted to a large sum only with such a unit as Napoleon himself ... without him they lost half of their military value

    Although yes, there were also exceptions - Massena, Davout and especially Lannes. Outstanding tacticians, but no strategists.

    In general, history is surprisingly cyclical - another Euro-reich is gaining acceleration, but gets a bandwagon from England and in flight smashes its head against Russia like an apstena. laughing
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 1 October 2020 19: 14
      +5
      I don't remember where exactly, but I read for sure that such a statement was attributed to A.V. Suvorov: "Without Napoleon himself, all of his marshals are worth absolutely nothing."
      1. Gato
        Gato 1 October 2020 19: 30
        +3
        attributed to A.V. Suvorov

        Well, this is unlikely. A.V. Suvorov died in May 1800, and Napoleon only six months before his death became the first consul, not even the emperor yet. What kind of Napoleonic marshals did he have then? Did he consider Massena empty space? Well I do not know...
    2. Engineer
      Engineer 1 October 2020 21: 24
      +2
      In general, this is a very interesting topic - the strengths and weaknesses of Napoleon and his marshals
      I have here again impression... Napoleon is an excellent tactician and a great strategist. But not brilliant. But in terms of operational skills, he practically had no equal. Lead an army stronger than the enemy to the right place, scattering barriers and falling in mass - he was the master
      Everybody screwed up and Boney too. Under Marengo, for example, he simply put himself under attack from the Austrians.
      Many people were looking for clues to Napoleon's tactics. Benningsen, a decent but not at all outstanding military leader, almost found, having fought two draw battles. To defeat him at Preussisch-Eylau, it took a noticeable superiority in forces
      Massena has Zurich -2- excellent achievement
      Davout has Auerstedt - a victory at the level of the best victories of Suvorov and Napoleon
      On the other hand, I believe that Archduke Karl, Barclay, Wurmser, Melas could become quite decent marshals of France if they had changed their places with their opponents.
      1. sivuch
        sivuch 2 October 2020 10: 48
        +1
        Something you have forgotten Saint-Cyr.
        As for Masséna, he somehow quickly passed. Many generals become indecisive in old age (like Conde and Montecuculi), but in Massena this indecision manifested itself after 50 years. He did not even manage to get rid of the command in the second Portuguese campaign., In the failure of which, by the way, Boni is to blame no less
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 2 October 2020 12: 15
          -1
          Yes, I didn't have in my mind to rank everyone
          It's too hard for me. I don't know Napoleon well.
          .
          He did not even manage to break away from command in the second Portuguese campaign.

          maybe the third?
          You can blame Masséna for the failure of 1810, but Wellington was there. He was better than almost any French marshal
          1. sivuch
            sivuch 2 October 2020 12: 39
            0
            Nyaz is in the second. The third was commanded by Kolya Sult. That the long-nosed was better than any marshal is a rather controversial issue. In principle, everyone, starting with Boni, was screwed up with the second campaign, but he will not admit his mistakes. It was easier to hang all the dogs on Massena.
            Marbo has details. The latter's credibility is sometimes lame (after all, the prototyp of Brigadier Gerard), but here, I think, he can be trusted.
  5. Undecim
    Undecim 1 October 2020 19: 02
    +6
    I'll start with Alexander Berthier, whom Napoleon called his "right hand". The future chief of staff was born on November 20, 1753 in the family of an engineer-geographer.
    Louis-Alexander Berthier is a completely unfortunate candidate for the beginning. He was born into the family of Lieutenant Colonel Corps de genie, who served as Director of Military Survey under two kings - Louis XV and Louis XVI.
    So for the marshal's baton, Berthier did not start from the bottom, but from the headquarters of the régiment de Listenois dragons - a regiment of Lorraine dragoons under the command of Charles Eugene of Lorraine, Stalmeister of France.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 October 2020 19: 27
      +6
      But Berthier was exclusively a staff worker. So, getting him the marshal's baton is a rather exceptional case, partly opportunistic, but worthy to start the story !!!
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 1 October 2020 19: 33
        +6
        He was not just a "staff member", he was the chief of staff. Or do you think that marshals should exclusively ride a white horse with a saber in front of the troops? By the way, read about Berthier under Marengo.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 1 October 2020 19: 46
          +4
          In addition to the canvas, which depicts Napoleon and Berthier at Marengo, I did not find anything about Berthier's activities in this battle. Share, at least briefly?
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 1 October 2020 20: 29
            +5
            Wounded in the arm, but remained in the ranks, the horse under him was killed,
            By the way, the idea of ​​crossing the Alps to Italy, which resulted in the Battle of Marengo and the entire organization of the army and this transition - Berthier.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 1 October 2020 20: 36
              +5
              Thanks. Regarding the idea of ​​crossing the Alps - that's what he and the chief of staff. smile
              I found another job for this battle - "Guard at Marengo".
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 1 October 2020 20: 57
                +5
                In the battle of Lodi, Berthier personally led the soldiers in the attack, with a saber bald in front of everyone, by the way.
                At the Battle of Rivoli, he commanded the center of the army.

                Baron Antoine-Jean Gros. Portrait of Louis-Alexander Berthier on the Lodi Bridge on May 10, 1796
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 October 2020 04: 39
          +3
          Quote: Undecim
          He was not just a "staff member", he was the chief of staff. Or do you think that marshals should exclusively ride a white horse with a saber in front of the troops? By the way, read about Berthier under Marengo.

          VikNik, read my comment again! I myself am a "headquarters ... cat", since 2016 and I can imagine what competencies you need to have in this direction in order to break into generals (marshals) !!!
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 2 October 2020 07: 36
            0
            So I misjudged your comment.
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 October 2020 08: 22
              +1
              Victor Nikolaevich - swept away!
        3. sivuch
          sivuch 2 October 2020 10: 49
          0
          With independent command, Berthier somehow did not work out, In 1805 he broke a lot of firewood.
          1. Tavrik
            Tavrik 2 October 2020 23: 53
            0
            Rather, at the beginning of the 1809 campaign. In 1805, Napoleon himself ruled everything. Naturally, through Berthier and his headquarters.
            By the way, the structure of the main headquarters was not at all simple then. With a bunch of departments. Moreover, the connection of times is clearly traced: some of the departments exactly resemble the units of modern headquarters.
  6. Engineer
    Engineer 1 October 2020 19: 53
    +4
    Himself not an expert on Napoleonics
    The impression was that Napoleon of the Marshals was very jealous of fame. He put forward people who were convenient to him - almost all the marshals were not independent figures. Seeing a man like Moreau next to him was unbearable for him.
    I remember only Davoo - in all respects, a major military leader
    Among the generals there were people who excelled many marshals in talents, but for various reasons did not receive the baton - Deuze, Beauharnais, etc.
    1. Liam
      Liam 1 October 2020 20: 05
      0
      Quote: Engineer
      He put forward people who were comfortable for him - almost all the marshals were not independent figures


      What does it mean in your understanding independent Marshal under the commander in chief Can you give an example of an independent marshal?
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 1 October 2020 20: 11
        +5
        Here, an independent figure is a person endowed with the talent of a commander in full measure. The same square according to Napoleon's expression.
        1. Liam
          Liam 1 October 2020 20: 26
          +1
          These are common words and everything is learned in comparison. Therefore, I asked for examples of independent marshals under commanders-in-chief. Napoleon is a military genius, a commander and an emperor who mainly personally led military campaigns. His marshals did an excellent job with their duties and when they commanded themselves and when they were personally led by battles. Napoleon: They didn’t reach his heights, yes, but he was a genius and no one could reach his heights.
          It is necessary to compare them with their competitors of that time. I doubt that you will name at least some Austrian, Prussian or Russian marshal of that era who were more talented or more independent than they
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 1 October 2020 20: 28
            +5
            I wrote
            Himself not an expert on Napoleonics

            EVERYTHING that I wrote is subjective and does not claim any knowledge. It is mine impression... 19th century least interesting period in history for me
            1. Liam
              Liam 1 October 2020 20: 35
              +2
              This story about the lack of independence of Napoleonic marshals is such a walking stereotype that everyone repeats like a mantra in isolation from the facts and often in contradiction with them. The same author, without any logic and consistency, in this article describes how Bessières independently leads the Spanish campaign, wins a series of battles, including major ones, so that in a couple of lines to tell us that Bessières was neither talented nor independent)
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 1 October 2020 20: 41
                +4
                Well a stereotype. And what? laughing
                You have some sort of Porthos syndrome. "Yeah, caught in stereotypes, can you give an example? You repeat the mantra, catch the punch"
                Take it easy, tomorrow is Friday)
                1. Liam
                  Liam 1 October 2020 20: 45
                  +1
                  I work on Saturdays)
                  You are a well-educated Persian, therefore, unreasonable (from my point of view) conclusions in your performance "catch" attention and react. Would write it some kind of sea or land cat, I would not even pay attention.
                  Everything is simple and without complexes)
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 1 October 2020 20: 48
                    +7
                    Now it is impossible to write stupidity.
                    Demand as smart. Eh ...)
                    I work on Saturdays)

                    Are you really Italian ?? belay
                    1. Liam
                      Liam 1 October 2020 20: 52
                      +1
                      Are you sure that you know Italians well and not stereotypes about them?)
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 1 October 2020 20: 55
                        +6
                        I know perfectly bully
                        Excellente, marveloso, perfecto
                        Colleagues told everything about them
                      2. Liam
                        Liam 1 October 2020 21: 05
                        +1
                        Italians plow that your Germans)
                        You can't build a rich country without a hardworking people. And stereotypes about little work ... so foreigners come here to rest and come into contact with this aspect of life. True, they forget that for them this is rest, but for most Italians staying there it is work)
                        Tourists do not go to factories and offices. And they do not go to the sea to Germany either. Therefore, they do not see the "idle" Germans
                  2. Liam
                    Liam 1 October 2020 20: 53
                    +1
                    Quote: Engineer
                    Demand as smart

                    Everyone should carry their own cross)
                2. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 October 2020 21: 05
                  +3
                  Would write this some kind of sea or land cat, would not even pay attention.

                  Much obliged. hi
                  By the way, "some" is written with a hyphen. Do you know what it is?
                  1. Liam
                    Liam 1 October 2020 21: 08
                    +2
                    Have you decided to flash your knowledge of the Russian language and spelling in front of non-Russian?)
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 1 October 2020 21: 10
                      +4
                      Knowledge does not sparkle, but shines. And this is just an answer to your courtesy. smile
                    2. Liam
                      Liam 1 October 2020 21: 14
                      +1
                      We will assume that you once again flashed with brilliance)
                    3. Catfish
                      Catfish 1 October 2020 21: 23
                      +3
                      Count what you want and what you want. Freedom - will, blessed - paradise.
                    4. Liam
                      Liam 1 October 2020 21: 32
                      +1
                      I will definitely contact you when I need an editor / secretary-typist for my posts.
                    5. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 1 October 2020 21: 48
                      +4
                      I will definitely contact you when I need an editor / secretary-typist for my posts.

                      no. You just screwed everyone up. No respect. Love the French and the Italians.
                      And the Sea Cat is certainly more heroic than you.
                      Write yourself from the Mediterranean far away. negative
                    6. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 1 October 2020 22: 24
                      +6
                      Kolya! Considering that the addressee of your eulogy considers holivar to be art, you have lost crushingly! crying
                    7. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 1 October 2020 22: 27
                      +3
                      Kolya! Considering that the addressee of your eulogy considers holivar to be art, you have lost crushingly!

                      Are you sure my friend? I haven't lost ... angry Don't do that .... I know my worth, I know you, but I won't allow the tank commander of the 60s to be rude. Especially for those who live abroad. Forgive me - Voronezh is bombing me! Old man from there. Not from the Cote d'Azur ... No.
                    8. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 1 October 2020 22: 34
                      +4
                      Oh yeah! I am sure of what I wrote above! Two years ago, you acted the same way.
                    9. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 1 October 2020 22: 39
                      +2
                      Oh yeah! I am sure of what I wrote above! Two years ago, you acted the same way.

                      AND? I didn't say a single insult. But I am against the rut of those whom I love and value, despite the difference in age, life experience, religion and gender-role orientation. We are different - we are together. soldier
                      You see, you can successfully "picking his nose, humming the Severyanin with his lip smeared with a cutlet"... And have your own opinion.
                      I say it again, he has "his own story." And even if she has not the slightest relation to ours, if he likes it. Let him go to the Italian site, and Mussolini will be made a national hero. I do not care. I made an opinion. All.
                    10. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 1 October 2020 22: 47
                      +5

                      AND? I didn't say a single insult.

                      You were unrestrained in your expressions. It's enough. "Send" must be graceful
                    11. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 1 October 2020 22: 53
                      +2
                      You were unrestrained in your expressions. It's enough. "Send" must be graceful

                      and I didn't send anyone! stop Anton! What do I care about ratings if you're my friend. Well, will I be in the Bath Loaf, or Kone Pahanka, or Bab Lick? We are one hell together with you and comrades? drinks
                    12. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 1 October 2020 22: 55
                      +4
                      Should I drive up now or will we wait until the weekend?
                    13. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 1 October 2020 22: 56
                      +4
                      Should I drive up now or will we wait until the weekend?

                      now - I have snot. Let's wait a week and a half .. There is a window! wink drinks
                    14. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 1 October 2020 23: 01
                      +4
                      Get out! For this weekend I have a rich cultural program
                    15. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 1 October 2020 23: 03
                      +4
                      Get out! For this weekend I have a rich cultural program

                      With three ladies and other waste? Ah, I know you, minstrel knight ... wink drinks And I should entertain "papa"! Next week.... request
                    16. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 1 October 2020 23: 10
                      +5
                      No, with two ladies, one promising literary opus, and so, drink vodka ...
                    17. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 2 October 2020 00: 43
                      +3
                      No, with two ladies, one promising literary opus, and so, drink vodka ...

                      Well, two is not three, you get tired less, spend more usefully. wink drinks
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 1 October 2020 22: 41
      +4
      In, it was not enough for you to quarrel with each other. It would be because of what. Actually, Anton, I have always thought of us as one team. I'm not here about myself, but about your answer to Nikolai.
    3. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 1 October 2020 22: 43
      +4
      I'm not here about myself, but about your answer to Nikolai.

      but I have no other friend like him! Don't, Uncle Kostya ... drinks
    4. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 1 October 2020 22: 53
      +4
      Pffffff ... (fading), (Stanislavsky's homeric laughter)
    5. Catfish
      Catfish 1 October 2020 22: 59
      +3
      Well, this "comrade" is immensely talented. As I recall his portrait in "Theatrical Novel" ... yes
    6. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 1 October 2020 23: 06
      +5
      Uncle Kostya! No matter how proud you are of your experience, you cannot remember Stanislavsky.
    7. Catfish
      Catfish 1 October 2020 23: 23
      +4
      I remember Bulgakov. smile
      And being proud of experience does not make any sense, everyone has their own experience and on their own skin, I do not have yours, you do not have mine. Probably, you can be proud only of the correct conclusions based on the experience gained, but with this problem, and, I think, any of us. drinks
    8. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 1 October 2020 23: 31
      +4
      "Looking back, we see only ruins,
      The look, of course, is very barbaric, but true "(C)
    9. Catfish
      Catfish 1 October 2020 23: 46
      +4
      Fortunately, not only ruins, I have hope for the future, in my children. And the ruins and skeletons in the closet ... everyone who lives has them, but does not exist ... drinks ... and "a bum who doesn't drink with us!" smile
      The glass is always half full, not half empty. drinks
    10. Korsar4
      Korsar4 2 October 2020 19: 43
      +1
      “In three
      She is alive again ”(c).
    11. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 2 October 2020 19: 48
      +2
      "Warm morning, smog over the city,
      May potion, encephalitis,
      You will die today
      Tomorrow they will say: "Poet!" (FROM)
    12. Korsar4
      Korsar4 2 October 2020 19: 51
      +2
      “And at 37 it's not blood.
      Why is there blood
      And the gray hair stained the whiskey not so profusely ”(c).
    13. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 2 October 2020 20: 09
      +3
      "Let my head be gray,
      My star has faded long ago "(C)
    14. Korsar4
      Korsar4 2 October 2020 21: 33
      +1
      "In this life you are reputed to be wise - so what" (c).
    15. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 2 October 2020 21: 47
      +1
      "Let you live as a janitor,
      You will be born again as a foreman
      And then, from the foremen, you will grow to the minister "(C)
    16. Korsar4
      Korsar4 2 October 2020 21: 54
      +1
      "Nimble but quick - you will become ministers!" (from).
    17. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 2 October 2020 21: 58
      +1
      "Kings can do everything, kings can do everything!" (FROM)
    18. Korsar4
      Korsar4 2 October 2020 22: 18
      +2
      “They believed me and so - as a king, -
      All high-ranking children "(c).
  7. Liam
    Liam 2 October 2020 06: 37
    +1
    Smiled). Arranged here a chamomile .. loves / dislikes.
    I do not recall any of my disrespectful or offensive posts addressed to you. Do you have any other information on this?
  8. Catfish
    Catfish 1 October 2020 22: 16
    +2
    Here is no, to say thank you for the free teaching of the great and mighty. Oh people ... request
  9. Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 1 October 2020 22: 22
    +2
    Here is no, to say thank you for the free teaching of the great and mighty. Oh people ...

    К whom are you addressing, uncle Kostya? Do you need it? I seem to have said everything. Let him live in peace and cook pasta. Got it out. Fair.
  10. Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 1 October 2020 22: 31
    +2
    I will definitely contact you when I need an editor / secretary-typist for my posts.

    Where are you? The fireman was found. I. Are you coming? It's a pity, Lexus is gone ... Oh, it's a master of words! good
  11. Catfish
    Catfish 1 October 2020 22: 44
    +2
    Kohl, God bless him, there would be someone to ask. laughing And Lyokha was banned without the right of correspondence, it is evident that he again grappled with the "torquemada", he reacts to them like a boa constrictor to rabbits. smile
  12. Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 1 October 2020 22: 50
    +2
    And Lyokha was banned without the right of correspondence, it is evident that he again grappled with the "torquemada", he reacts to them like a boa constrictor to rabbits.

    Leho and I are good friends. No matter what he says, it is difficult to deny him the truth. drinks
  13. Korsar4
    Korsar4 2 October 2020 19: 31
    +1
    "Sometimes the key hits, and sometimes it flows" (c).
  14. Korsar4
    Korsar4 2 October 2020 19: 45
    +1
    Instead of the "key" there should have been a "spring". The costs come with road cues.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 1 October 2020 21: 01
    +1
    ... or a Russian marshal of that era who were more talented or more independent than they

    Do you have anything to say about Alexander Vasilyevich Suvorov?
    1. Liam
      Liam 1 October 2020 21: 11
      +2
      Quote: Sea Cat
      ... or a Russian marshal of that era who were more talented or more independent than they

      Do you have anything to say about Alexander Vasilyevich Suvorov?

      I can. After a "meeting" with the talented and dependent Napoleonic Marshal Massena, the Suvorov army ceased to exist as a combat unit and the remnants fled leaving the carts, artillery and the wounded.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 1 October 2020 21: 20
        +1
        It is clear what you mean.
        Clausewitz wrote that great generals even retreat like lions - growling and snapping in all directions. The Russian field marshal illustrated this idea well, having managed to save not only his own reputation, but also the honor of the entire tsarist army. By October 12, the regiments withdrew from the Alpine gorges in the territory controlled by the Austrians.

        By the way, who here spoke about Massena, that he is not independent and not talented?
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Gato
        Gato 1 October 2020 21: 55
        +2
        After the "meeting" with the talented and dependent Napoleonic Marshal Massena, the Suvorov army ceased to exist as a combat unit and the remnants fled leaving the carts, artillery and wounded

        This is a new word in the history of alpine hiking belay The Russian army made such a flight that it took with it 1200 prisoners, General La Courca, and, as they say, a piece of Massena's own uniform. They probably lie request
      3. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 1 October 2020 23: 00
        +3
        the talented and dependent Napoleonic Marshal Massena, the Suvorov army ceased to exist as a combat unit and the remnants escaped, leaving the carts, artillery and the wounded.

        after the "flight of the troops of the untalented Suvorov," the Austrians in one year profited from all his victories. Sign or not?
        .... Aren't you ashamed to write in Russian? .. ah, I forgot - the Italians at that time only changed kings, who will be imprisoned ... isn't it a shame? is the opinion of your own "I" more important?
      4. sivuch
        sivuch 2 October 2020 11: 00
        0
        And bringing in fifteen hundred (I write from memory) prisoners. And the wounded and Masséna had to be abandoned after Busako. but, unlike the Russians, he knew perfectly well that they would not be spared.
  • sivuch
    sivuch 2 October 2020 10: 56
    0
    What does an independent marshal mean in your understanding under a commander-in-chief? Can you give an example of an independent marshal?
    Suchet and Massena will fit?
  • Sertorius
    Sertorius 2 October 2020 01: 46
    +2
    The impression was that Napoleon of the Marshals was very jealous of fame. He put forward people who were convenient to him - almost all the marshals were not independent figures.

    This is a superficial impression. Napoleonic Marshal Suchet, who received the baton in 1811, quite successfully fought in Spain while Napoleon went to Russia. About Suchet, Napoleon said that if he had two Suchet, he would not have lost Spain (I do not remember literally).
    Another marshal who has proven his independence is Massena. Not only for the defeat of Korsakov at Zurich, but also for the defense of Genoa in 1800. “Whoever did not see how Massena fought at Aspern didn’t see anything,” these are the words of Napoleon. A person who was jealous of someone else's glory does not write like that.
    Massena ruined his military glory in Portugal, as did Junot, as did Soult. Of these, only Junot - because of his own mistakes.
    If Napoleon had nominated only those he liked as marshals, neither Augereau nor Massena would have received the rods.
    Among the generals there were people who excelled many marshals in talents, but for various reasons did not receive the baton - Deuze, Beauharnais, etc.

    I completely agree with this. This list should be headed by Saint-Hilaire, who did not live a few days before the delivery of the rod, which MacDonald received in his place.
    1. sivuch
      sivuch 2 October 2020 11: 04
      0
      This is not how a person who was jealous of someone else's glory writes.
      And you read what Boni wrote about Masséna later, already on the island of St. Helena. How jealous he was.
      About Portugal - I agree. But because of his own mistakes - and Soult too. just overslept (literally the appearance of a long-nosed)
      1. Sertorius
        Sertorius 2 October 2020 13: 34
        0
        Read what Boni wrote about Massena later, on St. Helena

        Name the work. Napoleon has more than one job.
        1. sivuch
          sivuch 2 October 2020 18: 11
          0
          Don't tell me about his glorious defense of Genoa. There was nothing glorious there in view of how Genoa was fortified. Why didn't he stay in Genoa for another 10 days? This position would remain with France. I would not believe that its 16000 soldiers and 160000 inhabitants starved to death so that they could not hold out for another 10 days. He had to take life supplies from the inhabitants, and if several old men and women died of hunger, then Genoa would be saved. If you think about humanities, then you don't need to fight ...
          107 Napoleon on the island of St. Helena / According to new documents // Bulletin of Foreign Literature. 1899. No. 10. P. 140-141
  • sivuch
    sivuch 2 October 2020 10: 53
    0
    For me, the most talented - both as tacticians and strategists - were Massena (for the time being), Davout and Saint-Cyr.
    And some of the marshals. like Monsey - really were nobody and no name.
  • Maki Avellevich
    Maki Avellevich 2 October 2020 18: 04
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    The impression was that Napoleon of the Marshals was very jealous of fame. He put forward people who were convenient to him - almost all the marshals were not independent figures.

    it looks like you're right. here is a quote from Napoleon:
    In my absence, only stupid things happen


    that is, the surroundings were performers and nothing more.
    even for a week Napoleon could not afford to go fishing.

    therefore, his empire disappeared as soon as the powder clouds scattered over Waterloo.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 2 October 2020 21: 36
      0
      In my absence, only stupid things happen

      It was Boney who was still filling his own worth.
      For Auerstedt, he should have been eternally grateful to the same Davout
      At Jena, Napoleon won a battle he could not lose. At Auerstedt Davout won a battle he could not win. "
  • Tavrik
    Tavrik 2 October 2020 23: 49
    0
    No, Napoleon encouraged the talented. "I give awards for blood, not ink." Moreover, he promoted people regardless of their origin, political views, wealth. But there were also "misses", as with Bernadotte.
    Napoleon is a recognized leader and he has nothing to fear. Besides, he is not just a commander - he is an emperor. In addition to wars, which were not few, he ruled the empire. These are finance, economics, trade, social sphere, culture, etc.
    And what is Moreau famous for? What did he do outstanding? Well, not a bad revolutionary general, of which there were many. Just do not read Pikul, "Under the rustle of banners." We're talking about history here, not literature.
  • Liam
    Liam 1 October 2020 20: 03
    -1
    It seems that the author himself did not read his clmpilation

    In 1808, Napoleon sent Bessieres to Spain, placing the 2nd corps under his command. On July 14, he defeated the twenty thousandth Spanish army, which was under the command of Joaquin Blake. Continuing in the same spirit, Bessières brought the Battle of Burgosse and Somo Sierra to victory. This year Napoleon granted Bessières the title of Duke of Istria.

    And a paragraph below ..

    ... But, unfortunately, Bessières did not shine with the talent of the commander. He was an excellent performer, but was not adapted to independent tasks.
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon 2 October 2020 09: 12
      0
      Quickie, sho do request,
  • bars1
    bars1 1 October 2020 20: 33
    +2
    Marshals as marshals are no better and no worse than ours. But Napoleon is the head. And he lost in the end.
  • north 2
    north 2 1 October 2020 22: 44
    +1
    Not Russia, which did not recognize the brazen will of those under whom the whole of Europe trembled, to call them brave
    and valiant. After all, it was precisely their valor that ended there and then, when they defeated Europe, they opened their mouth
    to Russia ...
    Here are the towers of Moscow's semi-wild
    Before you, in crowns of gold,
    Burns in the sun ... But alas ...
    That is the sun of your sunset.
  • sivuch
    sivuch 2 October 2020 11: 11
    +1
    1 Standing on the balcony, Berthier suffered an apoplectic stroke, after which he fell from him and crashed.
    It is not well established. there are still many versions
    2 About Bessiera. He just started with counter-revolutionary activities - with his regiment, he defended the Tuileries from revolutionary bands.
    little quiz - who knows the author of the phrase? to win, I need a little more troops and fewer besieres. this is . at the same time about the relationship of the marshals.
  • Tavrik
    Tavrik 2 October 2020 23: 37
    -1
    They were outstanding people. Personalities so bright that only Napoleon could keep them in check. Without him, quarrels, quarrels, setups, etc. immediately began.
  • Morrrow
    Morrrow 3 October 2020 13: 52
    0
    And where is the smartest of them? Suchet?