Military Review

Su-57: a critical view from the West

107

Expert Opinions



Recently, the American research organization RAND (Research and Development) presented rather harsh assessment of the development program of the Russian fifth generation fighter. One of the first to draw attention to the material was the well-known blog bmpd.

We have repeatedly heard enthusiastic and critical sentiments regarding Su-57: more often they all came from bloggers and publicists who, in a broad sense, simply expressed their opinions. In the case of Research and Development, the situation is different. RAND is a non-profit organization that serves as a strategic research center. She works on orders from the US government, the US Department of Defense and structures associated with them. The center was founded back in 1948: over the entire period of its existence, more than 30 Nobel laureates have worked within its walls. Some of the works are classified, but some, like the material presented recently, are available to the general public.

Old songs about the main


What did Research and Development talk about? In short, the development program for the Russian fifth generation fighter is not what it was originally seen. RAND does not write about this directly, but this conclusion can be drawn based on a rather critical assessment of the situation. The difficulties presented by Research and Development can be divided into several conditional categories that do not always touch each other.

Conceptual problems. According to American experts, the main difficulty lies in the unavailability of the second stage engine, known as the "Product 30". The organization recalls that all 76 aircraft that the Russian Air Force is expected to receive in the 2020s will not have a "second generation engine." And it's not clear when it will be ready.

American experts are right. At least in part. All prototypes of the Su-57 built to date do indeed use the AL-41F1 engine, developed on the basis of the Soviet AL-31F installed on the Su-27. The same applies to the first production fighters.


AL-41F1 has a thrust at afterburner of 15 kgf, while the "Product 000" it should be 30 kgf. The installation of a new engine is an important stage, because without it the aircraft will not have the required characteristics of the fifth generation, such as, for example, performing non-afterburning supersonic flight at all ranges of required altitudes and with different payload options.

Meanwhile, it is difficult to agree that the engine is the main challenge for the creators of the Su-57. Its development, as far as can be judged, is proceeding as planned. As a reminder, back in 2017, the prototype of the T-50-2 fighter performed its first flight with the “Product 30” installed in the left engine nacelle.


Another thing is more important. With all the importance of the power plant for a fifth generation fighter, another parameter is much more important: we are talking about stealth. Allegedly, it was because of the inconsistency with the stated requirements for this indicator that the Indians had previously abandoned the aircraft. The difficulties are clearly visible. These are the engine compressor blades "peeping" out of the air intake, drastically reducing stealth. This is the lack of a bail-free flashlight, as well as flat nozzles (as on the F-22 Raptor). And the "ball" of the optical location station in the bow, which also does not benefit stealth.

For some reason, the RAND material hardly mentions this, but reminds that “the successful development of this advanced avionics was and will remain a serious problem for the Russian aviation industry ". According to experts, Russia has had an unfortunate experience of fully utilizing the fruits of the information technology revolution that followed the end of the Cold War. This is aggravated, according to Research and Development, by Western sanctions, as well as broken relations with the Ukrainian military-industrial complex.

Bringing to combat readiness. Another range of criticism from RAND is related to the fact that Russia has not yet received a combat-ready fighter: with or without a second stage engine. And although the media flashed information about the use of the Su-57 in Syria (we are talking about prototypes) of guided air-to-surface missiles, de facto there was nothing of the kind. At the same time, the very fact of sending cars to the Syrian Arab Republic does not cause doubts among the Americans.

In this regard, referring to the achievement of initial combat readiness, RAND calls the deadline "not earlier than the mid-2020s." When it comes to export shipments, Research and Development points out that they are unlikely to start in the first half of the decade.


The above is generally not in doubt. On the other hand, you need to understand that bringing an aircraft to an operational state is a long and laborious process. Russia does not have the means and capabilities comparable to those of the United States. Back in 2010, when the plane made its first flight, few experts assumed that a production car would appear in 2020. De facto, the development program for the Russian fifth generation fighter is proceeding exactly as one might expect: few specialists paid attention to the numerous statements of propaganda. Also, few people had illusions about the meaning of sending prototypes of the Su-57 to Syria: most often it was considered as a kind of PR campaign, which hardly directly relates to the development of the aircraft.

Export deliveries. Research and Development does not specifically single out this or one of the other previously raised questions from the crowd. However, it is obvious that the organization pays special attention to the export of the Su-57.

According to the Americans, foreign investment is critical to the survival of the Russian aircraft industry. And the sale of the Su-57 to partners may solve some of the problems. Alas, according to RAND, Russia does not have such partners at the moment. The probable ones include China, Turkey, Vietnam and Algeria, with a clear predominance of the latter's role.


Not so long ago, there were rumors about the possible sale of a batch of these aircraft to an Arab country. In its report, Research and Development recalls that we have not yet heard confirmation of these rumors. One of the reasons is that Russia will not meet the aircraft development deadline. “It is unlikely that a fully developed and ready-to-serial-production Su-57 will go on sale before the end of the 2020s,” the organization said. Another problem lies in the demands of the Algerians to carry out tests of the car on their territory, which the Russian Federation will not agree to.

In general, according to American experts, in terms of its capabilities, the Su-57 will be close to the fourth generation F-15EX, which, of course, can hardly be called a positive result of the program. However, no one says that this will be true. A whole generation lies between the machines, albeit a very conditional one.
Author:
107 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. polpot
    polpot 29 September 2020 18: 03
    +7
    The dogs bark, the caravan moves on.
    1. credo
      credo 29 September 2020 18: 39
      15
      Quote: polpot
      The dogs bark, the caravan moves on.

      Competition in the military-industrial complex, as in other areas, has not been canceled, therefore it is very common to write negative about rival's products, even if it is written by solid Nobel laureates.
      The American military-industrial complex needs to sell its superfood products and a completely "non-profit" organization helps them in this.
      This is what "mutual assistance" means in American.
      1. lucul
        lucul 29 September 2020 18: 50
        14
        Competition in the military-industrial complex, as in other areas, has not been canceled, therefore it is very common to write negative about rival's products, even if it is written by solid Nobel laureates.

        And then)))
        Especially touched
        According to the Americans, foreign investment is critical to the survival of the Russian aircraft industry.

        Funds (reserve) in the country are bursting with dough, but foreign investments are definitely needed, yeah ... It's like you got your salary today, you have to go and borrow money to buy yourself bread.
        In general, when I hear the word "investment" - I know that they are trying to deceive me)))
        1. Sergey Sfiedu
          Sergey Sfiedu 29 September 2020 20: 25
          +2
          For funds and without an army, there are enough people who want to open their mouths. Yes, and they died not weakly. Not to understand the importance of foreign (and domestic, which instead of the Motherland go over the hill) investment - well, not to understand the word in economics at all.
          1. lucul
            lucul 29 September 2020 20: 37
            -7
            Not to understand the importance of foreign (and domestic, which instead of the Motherland go over the hill) investment - well, not to understand the word in economics at all.

            Investment is the subordination of another's economy to one's own.
            There can be no other definitions)))
            1. Sergey Sfiedu
              Sergey Sfiedu 29 September 2020 20: 41
              +9
              When your salary and pension cease to be paid, you may want to know something about the economy. Good luck.
              1. lucul
                lucul 29 September 2020 20: 44
                -4
                Good luck

                And you do not have to be ill ...
            2. Reklastik
              Reklastik 30 September 2020 07: 01
              +2
              Lending is slavery. And there is no need to return investments - this is the risk of the investor, not the one who asks to invest in himself.
            3. obratov
              obratov 15 October 2020 10: 28
              0
              What are you worried about? NO investment! No and WILL NOT be!
              So sleep well!
          2. nickname7
            nickname7 2 October 2020 09: 16
            0
            ... Funds (reserve) in the country are bursting with dough, but foreign investments are definitely needed

            Would you say yes to Nabiulina in the ears, "investment" is the alpha and omega of the liberals, they write about this in all their newspapers. In fact, the liberals who control the economy are trying to lease the country.
        2. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 29 September 2020 21: 08
          +1
          Quote: lucul
          Funds (reserve) in the country are bursting with dough, but foreign investments are definitely needed, yeah ... It's like you got your salary today, you have to go and borrow money to buy yourself bread.

          Exactly so! As long as the funds are bursting with dough, our Ministry of Finance is running around with the idea of ​​increasing the RF debt to at least 30% of GDP like. And they try to issue bonds and pay interest on them. These are decent percentages. And our Central Bank does not want to lower inflation below 4% so that the interest on bonds would be more attractive. They only complain that they did not buy them during the epidemic .. And the funds, yes, they are still bursting with dough! wassat
          1. lucul
            lucul 29 September 2020 21: 18
            -3
            Exactly so!

            Уthis according to Adam Smith Economics and HSE mriyas ...
        3. Boris ⁣ Shaver
          Boris ⁣ Shaver 30 September 2020 04: 22
          +3
          Quote: lucul
          Funds (reserve) in the country are bursting with dough

          That loot - who needs loot.
          Do not open your mouth on someone else's loaf.
        4. Vladislav Demchenko
          Vladislav Demchenko 2 October 2020 17: 05
          -1
          Break from the dough, so what? Western agent Putin invested this money somewhere?
      2. eklmn
        eklmn 2 October 2020 00: 12
        -1
        “The American military-industrial complex needs to sell its superfood products and a completely 'non-profit' organization helps them with this.”
        A country that wants to buy something “super-duper” does not read publications of “non-profit organizations”, they read technical specifications, the information of which is not in the public domain and is not available to us. And we just have to read articles about the product from sources belonging to "non-profit organizations". Ask the editors - they probably have articles with adorable reviews about the Su-57 (from China / Vietnam / Venezuela ...)
    2. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 29 September 2020 20: 29
      +8
      Quote: polpot
      The dogs bark, the caravan moves on.

      Judging by the fact that the number of 5th generation aircraft is growing both in the United States and in China (and the pace is not encouraging), but not here, the caravan is either moving very slowly or not at all.
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 29 September 2020 23: 59
        +3
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        Judging by the fact that the number of 5th generation aircraft is growing in both the US and China

        Well, yes, is the 5th generation F-35 and what is China doing?
        There was information that the F-35 does not go to supersonic mode in non-afterburner mode. But why it is believed that the supersonic regime on the AL-41F1 engines of the Su-57 is not forceful - it is not clear, the Su-35, after all, with these engines goes to supersonic freely. And we'd better keep quiet about the Chinese supersonic sound on the J-20 with our old engines and much larger aircraft.
        These are the engine compressor blades "protruding" from the air intake, .........

        Are they located in front of the air intake? oh-oh-oh -... From what angle do you need to shine the radar in order to see the compressor blades? The walls of the air intake can be with an absorber, as well as the front blades of the compressor with a profile to re-reflect the radiation onto these same walls (like in the Tu-160).
        .... This is also the absence of an uninterrupted flashlight, ....
        Is this all right with the F-35 (which entered production much later than the F-22)?

        And the "ball" of the optical location station in the bow, which also does not benefit stealth.
        Well, this is generally far-fetched.
        1. Ka-52
          Ka-52 30 September 2020 12: 27
          +4
          These are the engine compressor blades "protruding" from the air intake, .........

          Are they located in front of the air intake? oh-oh-oh -... From what angle do you need to shine the radar in order to see the compressor blades? The walls of the air intake can be with an absorber, as well as the front blades of the compressor with a profile to re-reflect the radiation onto these same walls (like in the Tu-160)

          Ilya Legat is a local yellow press. You don't need to take his writing seriously. Well, he does not know what CRR is - well, it happens. Not everyone should be smart and knowledgeable lol
        2. Dmitry V.
          Dmitry V. 30 September 2020 14: 34
          +3
          Quote: Bad_gr
          Are they located in front of the air intake? oh-oh-oh -... From what angle do you need to shine the radar in order to see the compressor blades? The walls of the air intake can be with an absorber, as well as the front blades of the compressor with a profile to re-reflect the radiation onto these same walls (like in the Tu-160).


          Absolutely.
          These idle speculations, having appeared once in the indopress, now wander from dilettante to dilettante :)
    3. FRoman1984
      FRoman1984 30 September 2020 05: 04
      +7
      Quote: polpot
      The dogs bark, the caravan moves on.

      Something slowly this caravan goes, apparently in no hurry. Indeed, where is the hurry? We are not lagging behind.
    4. kris_67
      kris_67 8 October 2020 15: 58
      0
      "The dogs are barking, the caravan is coming." - does not go but crawls and barely breathes
  2. NEXUS
    NEXUS 29 September 2020 18: 17
    +3
    RAND is a non-profit organization that serves as a strategic research center. She works on orders from the US government, the US Department of Defense and structures associated with them.

    That's it ... let's uncover, take our greatcoat and go home, citizens. The moonfaces said it was all in vain. fellow
  3. OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 29 September 2020 18: 18
    -3
    The probable ones include China, Turkey, Vietnam and Algeria, with a clear predominance of the latter's role.

    China only needs engines
    Turkey makes its own similar aircraft, cooperation is also possible in engines
    Vietnam has no money, they huddle Mig 21 to change
    Only Algeria remains
  4. Doccor18
    Doccor18 29 September 2020 18: 18
    +4
    The choice of the F-35 design was made back in 2001, as a result of a competition under the JSF program. 19 years have passed since then, and there are a lot of problems with this aircraft. And no one can say reliably when these problems will be solved ...
    Target program "PAK FA" (program "I-21"), developed jointly with Rosaviakosmos and the Air Force in 2002. But, firstly: for Americans, the F35 is the second fifth-generation fighter, and for Russia the first (Mig 1.44, like the Su47, does not count), and secondly, as RAND writes, the material resources and capabilities of countries are incomparable.
    So, work on 5 continues ...
    1. garri-lin
      garri-lin 29 September 2020 19: 38
      +8
      F 35 does not reach the fifth. Solid fourth. Compared to f22, this is both a step forward and a step back at the same time.
  5. Umalta
    Umalta 29 September 2020 18: 25
    +2
    The vaunted F-35 could not catch up with the carcass on the afterburner, so it also does not belong to the 5th generation, and if you consider that they are prohibited from flying in bad weather, this is generally "something".
    1. NEXUS
      NEXUS 29 September 2020 18: 48
      +9
      Quote: Umalta
      Vaunted F-35, could not catch up with the afterburner

      Few people will catch up with the TU-160 at the afterburner, since in this mode, the Swan can fly much longer than any Western 4th generation fighter.
      1. Umalta
        Umalta 29 September 2020 20: 00
        +1
        In fact, we are talking about the fifth generation and the example I gave shows that the F-35 is not the fifth generation, plus its all-weather performance is very doubtful, given the cancellations of flights due to bad weather.
        1. NEXUS
          NEXUS 29 September 2020 20: 02
          +7
          Quote: Umalta
          and the example given by me shows that the F-35 is not the fifth generation

          The lack of afterburner supersonic was known in the F-35 from the very beginning. It is not an aircraft of the 5th generation. The word "fighter" cannot be applied to it.
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 29 September 2020 21: 47
            +2
            F-35 is an analogue of F-16. And it has the same agility. Norway
            claim to be even better.
            The F-16 has an excellent combat score as a fighter.
            (Today is another victory, by the way).
            And the F-35 will gradually (and inevitably) gain battle points, becoming
            the most widespread combat aircraft in the world.
            1. NEXUS
              NEXUS 29 September 2020 22: 13
              +8
              Quote: voyaka uh
              Norway
              claim to be even better.

              And Baba Klava at my entrance, claims that Israel will become a communist country, literally very soon. Not to believe her, I have no reason. fellow
              1. voyaka uh
                voyaka uh 29 September 2020 22: 27
                +7
                Let me explain.
                The Norwegian pilots have all their aviation - F-16. And they use, they train with them in the version of fighters. Impact missions don't interest them. And they change all aviation to F-35. Although they had other options: Gripen, Typhoon.
                They organized training air battles: F-16 against F-35. The British flew to them on Typhoons to participate in exercises. There is experience.
                But if you are more interested in Aunt Klava laughing and communism in Israel ... is no longer for me hi
                1. Umalta
                  Umalta 29 September 2020 22: 59
                  0
                  It would be surprising if the US satellites refused to buy what the owner vaporized for them !! Poland is already bent back while in the knee-elbow position, ka..ak hoooo..number.
                  1. 3danimal
                    3danimal 30 September 2020 13: 01
                    0
                    It looks like you just want Poland to be a satellite of the Russian Federation (as in the past) and are outraged about it. They build their policy on the basis of non-return to the past state, IMHO.
                    And by the way, they are very successfully developing the economy (compare GDP / person).
                    1. Umalta
                      Umalta 30 September 2020 16: 25
                      +2
                      I want Poland to be self-sufficient, independent and uncomplexed and did not exploit Russophobia. It looks funny - "a pug barks at an elephant ..... well, you know, she is strong!" laughing
              2. My doctor
                My doctor 4 October 2020 09: 48
                0
                Quote: NEXUS
                And Baba Klava at my entrance, claims that Israel will become a communist country, literally very soon. Not to believe her, I have no reason.

                Clear. Now everything fell into place. That's where the nonsense rushing from.
    2. Sergey39
      Sergey39 29 September 2020 19: 15
      0
      Australian experts once rated the F-35 as a 3rd generation aircraft with elements of the 5th.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 29 September 2020 21: 41
        10
        There was only one expert. But when the software restrictions on overloads were removed
        glider from the initial 5 g, first up to 7 g, and then up to 9 g, and the F-35 showed a normal
        aerobatics with good maneuverability - the expert has disappeared.
        And he no longer performs.
        1. lucul
          lucul 29 September 2020 21: 51
          -3
          There was only one expert. But when the software restrictions on overloads were removed
          airframe glider with initial 5 g

          Remind us, for what purpose was the limit of only 5 G established? )))
          1. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 29 September 2020 23: 29
            +1
            If it was removed, then what's the difference?
        2. Umalta
          Umalta 29 September 2020 23: 44
          0
          Even according to American experts from NI, it is said that the F35 is not designed for air combat, especially highly maneuverable, these are your fantasies about overloads and superiority over the SU 57, it is designed to break through air defense and strike at ground targets, air targets for it are secondary, and he also has the task of transmitting data received by him to other aircraft (network centric).
  6. mark1
    mark1 29 September 2020 18: 29
    +9
    The main problem of the Su-57 is the timing of its massive (really massive) admission to the troops. If it is planned after the 27th year, then that Su-57 will have to be very different from the current Su-57 (even with product 30). And the second question arises - what will be the readiness of the industry for the mass production of the updated model? No matter how a vicious circle turns out ...
    This I mean that mass production (several hundred) should be started now, with consistent modernization in the course of mass production.
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 29 September 2020 18: 32
      +3
      Quote: mark1
      The main problem of the Su-57 is the timing of its massive (really massive) entry into the troops.

      In fairness, the F22 went to the troops 15 years from the first flight.
      1. mark1
        mark1 29 September 2020 18: 35
        +4
        And where was he in a hurry? And we are not even the third.
      2. fn34440
        fn34440 29 September 2020 19: 19
        -8
        "In fairness, the F22 went into the army 15 years from the first flight."
        1. The F-22 and F-35 do not meet all the requirements for the fifth generation of fighters. The obvious disadvantage of the F-35 is the obligatory hangar storage. This is because the sun's rays can damage the aircraft's stealth coating.
        2.American fighter is inferior to the Russian combat vehicle in terms of maneuverability by 25-30 percent, which in itself is “flawed”.
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 29 September 2020 19: 22
          +6
          Quote: fn34440
          F-22 and F-35 do not meet all the requirements for the fifth generation of fighters

          I would like to ask you to provide a certificate of non-compliance with the 5th generation from the “Commission for the assignment of a generation to an aircraft”
          1. Umalta
            Umalta 29 September 2020 20: 02
            -4
            Life will show, God will give.
        2. 3danimal
          3danimal 30 September 2020 13: 09
          +1
          Find fault. "25%" is not serious, especially since the deviation is structurally limited there (only vertically) smile
          The F-22 is noticeably superior in maneuverability to all 4th generation fighters without OVT and is still a pure "fifth".
          But the question is: if the RPM on the F-22/35 is afraid of the sun, then why is the coating on the Su-57 not afraid of it? Does it exist at all? Or stealth only due to the shape of the glider?
          1. eklmn
            eklmn 2 October 2020 00: 41
            -1
            What the hell coverage !! Rivets stick out of the glider like a hedgehog needles! How invisible he is !!!
            https://www.airteamimages.com/pics/293/293622_big.jpg
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 2 October 2020 10: 29
              0
              Agree good
              It is not surprising that the declared EPR is only 0,3 m2 from the front. And it is obvious that Poghosyan and co simply "equated" the same parameter of the F-22/35 to ours, so that such a big (by orders of magnitude) difference cannot be seen. "Who needs stealth at all, it doesn't work" smile
    2. Doccor18
      Doccor18 29 September 2020 18: 37
      +4
      This I mean that mass production (several hundred) ...

      Yes you are an incorrigible optimist hi
      Several hundred ..... If 100 were put in the troops - already excellent.
      1. Voyager
        Voyager 29 September 2020 19: 12
        +5
        The existing contract for the Su-57 is already the most expensive and largest in the history of fighter aircraft in modern Russia.
    3. Sergey39
      Sergey39 29 September 2020 19: 17
      +3
      Quote: mark1
      mass production (several hundred) should be started now, with consistent modernization in the course of mass production.

      How are the Americans? More than 400 units have already been released, but so far they have not been adopted into service and it is not known whether they will be accepted at all.
      1. mark1
        mark1 29 September 2020 19: 35
        +2
        Quote: Sergey39
        How are the Americans?

        As everybody. Otherwise, we will chronically lag behind. It is necessary to resolutely rebuild the aviation industry enterprises to a new basic platform, the old one is good (especially for the manufacturer), but it is already old, the potential is being exhausted.
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 30 September 2020 13: 11
          +2
          No money, but everyone is holding on request
          But there is $ 2 trillion in the US and Britain. (Over the past 20 years, only about 3 trillion received from high prices for hydrocarbons)
          Priorities ..
    4. nickname7
      nickname7 2 October 2020 10: 00
      +2
      ... the second question arises - what will be the readiness of the industry for mass production of the updated model?

      On the face of the growing lag behind the West. This seems to suit the Roselite, by the time the gap becomes critical, the elite hopes to fully integrate in Western countries. The Russians will only be left at a broken trough, with resources pumped out.
  7. ole1
    ole1 29 September 2020 18: 30
    -1
    Nothing new, the rush of water in a mortar. Well, you never know what some RAND wrote there.

    About the engine. Somewhere in Paralay they wrote that they were not talking about any 18 tons on afterburner. Afterburner thrust will be in the region of 16 tons, the main improvements are in terms of engine efficiency.

    And the second point - the max thrust is also important not on afterburner. And here the F22 has a significant advantage over the AL-41. Any approximate characteristics of the product 30 in this mode are not particularly known
    1. FRoman1984
      FRoman1984 30 September 2020 05: 15
      0
      Quote: ole1
      Nothing new, the rush of water in a mortar. Well, you never know what some RAND wrote there.

      About the engine. Somewhere in Paralay they wrote that they were not talking about any 18 tons on afterburner. Afterburner thrust will be in the region of 16 tons, the main improvements are in terms of engine efficiency.

      And the second point - the max thrust is also important not on afterburner. And here the F22 has a significant advantage over the AL-41. Any approximate characteristics of the product 30 in this mode are not particularly known

      At the maximum. They wrote that there will be 11000 kgf.
      Total, 11000kgf / 16000kgf. It will be slightly more powerful than the F-22. But the weight of the f-22 is 19600 kg, the su-57 is about 18500 kg, due to this, the thrust-to-weight ratio of the su-57 will be higher.
      But where is this engine in the series ?? 5-10 years to wait ..
      1. ole1
        ole1 30 September 2020 11: 53
        +5
        Yes, 16t / 11t is excellent performance, given the lower weight of the cc 57.
        With such indicators, the su 57 is the most thrust-armed aircraft in the world, and with a good lead over its competitors.

        Another thing is that they began to develop su 57 when I was a student. He will probably go into the series when I become a pensioner
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 30 September 2020 13: 19
          0
          With such indicators, the su 57 is the most thrust-armed aircraft in the world, and with a good lead over its competitors.

          Someday will be. There, for five years already, several dozen production copies were waiting for 2020.
          It is also clear that 190 of these machines (by the number of F-22) will not be built in principle.
  8. rocket757
    rocket757 29 September 2020 18: 30
    +5
    This plane may well turn out to be the same intermediate model on the eve of something more perfect.
    Of course, if we proceed from the definition that "tomorrow there was a war", it may seem that we are sharply behind !!! But this is not very true ...
  9. fa2998
    fa2998 29 September 2020 18: 44
    +2
    Quote: Doccor18
    and there are a lot of problems with this plane.

    This plane is already 500 copies for customers, it is already bringing money. yes hi
  10. mark2
    mark2 29 September 2020 18: 55
    -3
    This is aggravated, according to Research and Development, by Western sanctions, as well as broken relations with the Ukrainian military-industrial complex.


    This is compounded by a lack of headwork skills. And without information technology everything can be developed.
    1. Umalta
      Umalta 29 September 2020 20: 05
      +1
      You can, but time !!
    2. 3danimal
      3danimal 30 September 2020 13: 23
      0
      You are wrong. This aircraft is somewhat more complicated than the Su-27.
      Put even a super draftsman for the drawing board, and put another one for AutoCAD (of the same qualifications). Who will do more?
      1. mark2
        mark2 30 September 2020 17: 58
        0
        Ahh, so the whole thing means everything in autocad?
        Don't talk nonsense. AutoCAD is just an advanced drawing board. I also know what it is and worked in it. In short, he adds her mind.
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 30 September 2020 18: 17
          0
          And I worked a lot in it. And before that - a little on whatman paper.
          In short, he adds her mind.

          Do you not understand the essence of the statement? It's about work. The program significantly improves performance.
          And your competitor will significantly outperform you.
          1. mark2
            mark2 30 September 2020 23: 02
            +1
            Well, we both know that there are no problems with autocad in Russia. But there is technology with the implementation of ideas, in most cases it has nothing to do with it. AutoCAD is no longer even a technology, but a tool, like a drawing board and a drawing paper.
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 1 October 2020 06: 00
              -1
              True, but more advanced.
              And there are much more advanced design tools. Which were used in the development of the same F-35, including the F-22.
              They are also needed for the Su-57.
        2. My doctor
          My doctor 4 October 2020 10: 11
          0
          Quote: mark2
          Ahh, so the whole thing means everything in autocad?
          Don't talk nonsense. AutoCAD is just an advanced drawing board. I also know what it is and worked in it. In short, he adds her mind.

          AutoCAD is not a drawing board but a CAD system. Modern programs allow you to create a 3D model not only as graphics for constructing projections on the plane of the drawing sheet, but as a condition for engineering calculations by numerical methods.
  11. Ros 56
    Ros 56 29 September 2020 18: 59
    -3
    When they get into a lobby, they will sing other songs, but for now let them bark.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 30 September 2020 13: 25
      +1
      Danila Bagrov also said that America was Khan .. You just have to believe smile
      PS And how will they get it?
      1. Ros 56
        Ros 56 30 September 2020 13: 41
        -3
        This secret is great, when they get it, they know it. wassat
  12. A. Privalov
    A. Privalov 29 September 2020 20: 29
    +3
    Reading such articles is uniform masochism. Where do you dig them up?
    I have a friend. My age. In the past, he was a warrant officer, radio technician. He served somewhere in the Air Force, even on the MiG-21. We've had a bottle of Hennessy for over six years. We decided to drink it when they show a video about serial production and how the first serial Su-57 is rolled out of the factory gates. Look forward to.
    Well, for now, let's be content with this:
  13. bars1
    bars1 29 September 2020 20: 58
    +4
    Quote: ole1
    And the second point - the max thrust is also important not on the afterburner. And here the F22 has a significant advantage over the AL-41.

    Well, this is a salvation for the F-22 with its S-shaped air intakes and flat nozzles. Both lead to loss of thrust. So the Su-57 with less powerful engines at least does not lose in flight performance to the "American"
    And again the nonsense about the absence of the first stage of the afterburner supersonic on the Su-57 is repeated. Even the Su-35S possesses non-afterburning supersonic (albeit without external suspensions), let alone the Su-57 with more advanced aerodynamics and internal weapon placement. Well, let's not forget about the radar blockers on the Su-57, as well as the giant "burdocks" of the F-22 keels.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 30 September 2020 14: 53
      +1
      What's wrong with the f-22 keels? Are they much larger than those on the Su-35 (in terms of aerodynamics)?
      So yes, the internal arrangement of the suspensions allows them not to affect their speed and maneuver.
      Let me remind you that the S-shaped air intakes best of all hide such a noticeable radar element as the rotating blades of the turbojet engine compressors. The solution on the Su-57 is similar to that on the Super Hornet: a slight deviation to the sides and blockers. Less effective in terms of visibility, different developer priorities request
  14. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 29 September 2020 21: 32
    +8
    The Su-57 project must be brought to an end, to mass production
    anyway. This is a matter of principle.
    A milestone in the Russian aircraft industry. It is impossible to move forward without it.
    1. yehat2
      yehat2 30 September 2020 10: 37
      +2
      This is the view of the army, but the military-industrial complex looks differently - they do not care whether the Su-57 will be delivered or not.
      The main thing is that the money goes. That is why they are in no hurry.
    2. Petio
      Petio 1 October 2020 22: 16
      0
      Regarding the aporobation in Syria. What Shoigu showed is apparently true. Some examples of the WTO they really fed, including the CD, but this did not in any way show its quality as a fighter. KR from a range of about 400 km to the south can also be launched from the Su-35 and no stealth characteristics are needed.
    3. FRoman1984
      FRoman1984 2 October 2020 00: 11
      0
      Quote: voyaka uh
      The Su-57 project must be brought to an end, to mass production
      anyway. This is a matter of principle.
      A milestone in the Russian aircraft industry. It is impossible to move forward without it.

      More precisely, the swan song of the Russian / Soviet aircraft industry. It is unlikely that something else can be done. There are no hands, no brains anymore.
      I believe that the Su-57 is a matter of prestige, not a real necessity. It will not be much better than the Su-35 (an already good, reliable machine)
  15. Boris ⁣ Shaver
    Boris ⁣ Shaver 30 September 2020 04: 20
    0
    the development program of the Russian fifth generation fighter is proceeding exactly as one might expect: few specialists paid attention to the numerous propaganda statements

    Forgive me, but who, then, are the experts who regularly provided rich food for that very propaganda with their statements? Not specialists? Or do they themselves not pay attention to their statements?
  16. FRoman1984
    FRoman1984 30 September 2020 05: 02
    -1
    I agree with this article. There is hardly anything to be expected before 2025. Everything moves too slowly and without haste. Serdyukov said somewhere that from 2017 to 2020, 16 flights were performed with a new engine.
    The engine (as well as the aircraft / glider) began to be developed in the mid-15s. 5 years have passed. And we need another 2020 years at least, but most likely the end of the 20s. Total 25-57 years for a car. And then a series. By what year will IAPs rearm on the Su-XNUMX ??
    About stealth is a debatable question. Is it necessary, and are the f-22 and f-35 so noticeable.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 30 September 2020 14: 58
      +2
      About controversy: stealth always gives a tactical advantage. You can be seen from a lesser distance. Coupled with AFAR radar is a very useful combination.
      The battles now start (and sometimes end) at a distance of 50-100 km. In addition, it is easier for an unobtrusive aircraft to pass the air defense zone: after all, the "domes" of detecting air defense missile systems in relation to it noticeably shrink.
  17. Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 30 September 2020 05: 58
    +1
    Do we really need a series of these Su-57s?
    If the plane is not finished, what for is a semi-finished product in the troops?
    On the other hand, while it is completed, it will have to be redone, it will become obsolete morally. Electronics and the very information technologies are now developing very rapidly.
  18. Maks1995
    Maks1995 30 September 2020 10: 06
    -1
    In principle, they are right. Although adjusted for durability.
    Recall at least how after the departure of the Indians our only a year later thought of covering the glass of the cockpit with a stealth coating ... supposedly 50% of the stealth gave, they bragged later
  19. bars1
    bars1 30 September 2020 10: 21
    +1
    Quote: Max1995
    it was only a year later that they thought of covering the cockpit glass with a stealth coating

    But rivets! They forgot about the rivets!
  20. yehat2
    yehat2 30 September 2020 10: 34
    +3
    how will su-57 be equal to f-15 EX, if energy and visibility differ radically?
    Su-57 has UVT, F-15 does not
    The only thing that they will have about the same is the quality of the filling and weapons.
  21. Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 30 September 2020 14: 04
    +2
    These are the engine compressor blades "peeping" out of the air intake, drastically reducing stealth. This is the lack of a bail-free flashlight, as well as flat nozzles (as on the F-22 Raptor). And the "ball" of the optical location station in the bow, which also does not benefit stealth.

    This nonsense was invented by amateurs who are far from technology and are being translated from article to article.

    The F-35 doesn't have a flat nozzle and is no longer stealth? :))
  22. Zhevlonenko
    Zhevlonenko 30 September 2020 14: 30
    0
    This is precisely the fact that this company is under a contract with the Pentagon and suggests that criticism of this kind should be treated with extreme caution. It could easily be ordered by the Pentagon.
  23. BastaKarapuzik And
    BastaKarapuzik And 30 September 2020 15: 56
    +1
    Quote: voyaka uh
    claim to be even better.

    so we can say
  24. bars1
    bars1 30 September 2020 23: 47
    +1
    Quote: 3danimal
    What's wrong with the f-22 keels? They are much larger than those on the Su-35.

    The keels of the F-22 are simply huge, probably one of the largest ever built American fighters (find a photo in a search engine) They shine notably from the side.
    And what does the old Su-35 have to do with it?
  25. venaly
    venaly 1 October 2020 05: 49
    -1
    Americans scold something - it means it's a good thing. Dot.
  26. Oleg Kievlyanin
    Oleg Kievlyanin 1 October 2020 15: 37
    +1
    Competitors are being bullied, nothing personal is business
  27. lazy
    lazy 1 October 2020 18: 00
    0
    RAND's main task is to crap a competitor. so we are understanding but give a shit
  28. Baron pardus
    Baron pardus 1 October 2020 19: 36
    +1
    When we evaluate something that needs to be said right away, we evaluate what is now, or what is already in testing or what is only in development. Are there NOW 2nd generation engines and AESA radar for Su57 already on airplanes or in mass production? Ditto in all respects including Air-to-Air missiles. There can really be something wonderful in development and testing in Russia. But the Raphael, F16 and other AESA fighters already have radars. The same is with engines, stealth, weapons and other performance characteristics. It is most logical to compare what is already in mass production and is being used by the troops. The configuration of the air intakes, cockpit canopy and radar are easy to change. It is enough to look at the huge difference between the first Mirage 3 and the Mirage 3 NG, which is already ready for production but did not go into the series. EMNIP Britts on Phantoms also changed the engines and air intakes. But while it is necessary to compare what ALREADY is.
  29. Sedoy
    Sedoy 1 October 2020 20: 31
    0
    presented a rather harsh assessment of the Russian fighter development program

    -----------
    hi slander ... :)
  30. Johann Klassen
    Johann Klassen 2 October 2020 13: 21
    0
    In the presence of the FRS and the "printing press", paper for unlimited printing of "dollar wrappers", the US military-industrial complex, even with such a number of "all kinds of laureates", produces dummies for a fantastic cost.
    Most of the "completely invisible targets, planes and ships, have been on the" hitch "for years, performing" elephant rides "from time to time.
    Operation costs a lot of money, and from external influences, the super-expensive coating comes into full disrepair.
    Yes, there is no dispute, the United States is ahead of the "All Planet".
    But sooner or later, America's endless possibilities will end.
    Advocacy services, public and private, are trying to "ineptly" compensate for shortcomings with new digital technologies: social media, and more.
  31. av58
    av58 2 October 2020 15: 47
    0
    Not interesting and boring. At first they said that there would be no plane at all. Then they began to nod at the money, they said that the Ministry of Defense could not afford this plane. After the contract was concluded, they began to say that the Russian Aerospace Forces would not be able to afford many aircraft (a copy of the story with the number of F-22s). Now they say that there are problems with the second generation engine and electronics. The result, I think, will be the same as before: both the engine and the electronics will be brought to mind, and in general they will make the second generation Su-57.
  32. This is the main
    This is the main 2 October 2020 17: 00
    0
    So is this really a problem? For most of the known characteristics, the Su57 surpasses the FE35 even with the old engine. And the stealth of the fe35 after the first flight breaks down along with the coating and the pilots will refuse to go into battle on it. And what do you say?
  33. certero
    certero 2 October 2020 17: 34
    -1
    Quote: Reklastik
    there is no need to return investments - this is the risk of the investor, not the one who asks to invest in himself.

    This is a completely new word in economics. An investment is money that you have invested in a project in order to make a profit. And for this you get something or shares or part of the production, or something else. Therefore, you will have to give them away. For example, by losing control of the plant
  34. Sergey Z.
    Sergey Z. 2 October 2020 21: 05
    0
    Hmm, well, who is stopping this office (RAND) from making a secret report on this topic now, and what is in the public domain is just stuffing in order to turn away potential buyers ???
    Is that why I could be wrong? They no longer disdain anything.
  35. alexey alexeyev_2
    alexey alexeyev_2 3 October 2020 19: 16
    0
    In the land of money, like our village goat makhorka. And give them all the investments.
  36. Dimax-nemo
    Dimax-nemo 5 October 2020 08: 38
    0
    1. About Yankee engines it is better to remain silent, let them look at the thrust-to-weight ratio of their F-35 (- supersonic cruising speed). And about the UVT absent on it (- super-maneuverability). And about a small internal weapons compartment (in some cases - stealth).
    2. With stealth, they didn't even try very hard. Back in the 90s - 2000s, there was an opinion among domestic experts that the main thing was "board". Stealth is not a panacea. Back in the late 300s, the S-80V could detect and destroy targets with EPR in hundredths of a square meter. m. Since then, progress in the development of the radar has stepped even further. There is no doubt that the F-35 will be detected by modern radars at a distance of tens of kilometers, and this is the typical distance of air combat in the middle range of the 80-90s of the last century. UHT flat nozzles on the F-22 are not "all-round" like on Russian fighters.
    3. The "side" declared for the Su-57 is indeed the most serious problem. But I would be careful not to make global conclusions in the place of American experts. The PAR MiG-31 also "came out of nowhere". And there is no need to interfere with the Ukrainians - aviation radars for fighters were not developed in the Ukrainian SSR. GOS were produced for missiles - yes.
    4. For the F-15EX, even the Su-35 and MiG-35 will be a very serious problem (if, again, it receives the declared "board"), and the latter, due to its smaller size (and EPR) and AFAR, may become even more a serious problem.
  37. Yuriy Malyshko
    Yuriy Malyshko 9 October 2020 18: 33
    0
    Yes, you will equip these aircraft with at least a squadron in every district and in every fleet! And then compare. And then be proud. Well, the gag reflex will manifest itself, rightly so, as soon as (what a year!) They begin to discuss these pre-production airplanes! The defensive (offensive) effectiveness of the heel of super-fighters in real war is negligible. Military structures make war. It is important that these structures are balanced and complementary.
  38. The comment was deleted.
  39. peter rusin_2
    peter rusin_2 21 October 2020 21: 10
    0
    Maybe they are real Nobel laureates, or maybe not! Only now the US radar station does not see the SU-57 at close range, even in this state (disadvantages), as it is written !!
  40. Bibabo
    Bibabo 24 October 2020 02: 12
    0
    They cultivate a logical thinking among the people, but they try to create the best technology in the world.
  41. Evgeny Seleznev
    Evgeny Seleznev 26 October 2020 20: 14
    0
    Here it is correctly indicated about a small sales market or 3 world or a gift to China for disassembly and cloning (they do not bother with copyright).