Military Review

Prehistoric Argonauts

159

Ebora IV, one of Görlitz's reed boats afloat under sail. Vertically standing keel boards are clearly visible


Argo!
Is your way closer
What is the Milky road?
Argo,
What losses are crying about
Bird on the opposite side?
Sail over you
Raised by fate -
This is the flag of separation
Wanderings the eternal banner! ..
VIA "Iveria". Song of the Argonauts from the movie "Merry Chronicle of a Dangerous Journey"


Ancient civilization. So we are in Turkey. But only not in today's, but on the lands of ancient Phrygia, Lydia, Lycia, whose wealth is such that it causes envy among the Continental Greeks, and such that they come up with history about King Midas. But gold is only one of the reasons, surprisingly. There is also another: the ruggedness of the coastline of the Asia Minor coast. There are many small islets, bays, and many more convenient harbors than on the peninsula of mainland Greece. It is easier to swim here and more convenient to stick to the shore, here you can always take refuge in a storm. That is, already at that time distant from us, the main trade route went not so much along the shores of the Balkan Peninsula, but along the coast of Asia Minor. And apparently, it was not for nothing that ancient Troy became so rich at that time, awakening the primitive greed of the Achaean leaders. There was a reason for that and it lay in the convenient geographical position of the same Troas.

Yes, but where could sailors sail along these shores in the era of Paris and Agamemnon, or even earlier? And most importantly, on what? And today we are just trying to tell about it.

As you know, the idea of ​​experimentally proving that in ancient times the oceans united people, and did not serve as an insurmountable obstacle for them, first came to Thur Heyerdahl's mind, and has never left it since then.

As you know, he made his first voyage on the Kon-Tiki balsa raft back in 1947, followed by sailing across the Atlantic on the Ra and Ra-2 reed boats. 30 years later, again on a reed ship called "Tigris", he went to sea to prove that the ancient Sumerians could sail on such ships from the Persian Gulf to Africa.

Nobody denies his contribution to science, but in this case there is one "but". We cannot accurately record the elements of influence that, as he believes, rafts and reed boats brought across the oceans. What do the inhabitants of South America or Mexico have that would say: yes, there were contacts with Ancient Egypt, these artifacts unambiguously confirm this! That is, there seems to be a lot of circumstantial evidence. The same legend about the bearded god Quetzalcoatl ... But where did he come from exactly? And was he a Scandinavian, Breton, or who? We do not know and will not know. That is, there is training for the mind, but the scientific result of these voyages, in general, was minimal. In addition, all of his travels were one-way voyages. His ships failed to return back ...

Prehistoric Argonauts

Of course, the Greeks did not immediately begin to sail on such ships, the images of which we know from their images on vases and finds of underwater archaeologists. Still from the film "Odyssey's Wanderings" (1954)

In the case of the Mediterranean, things are different. There is the island of Cyprus, on which cattail reeds grow. And there are finds on it that unequivocally say: these products were brought from Egypt. And there are texts talking about the trade of Cyprus and Egypt, as well as drawings of Cretan shields in Egypt and much more that tells us: there was an effective sea trade between Egypt and the Mediterranean Sea, or rather, its islands. But what about Troy again? What did she climb on? This means that trade routes already in the Bronze Age went even further north, into the Black Sea. And already from there, something very valuable diverged across the Mediterranean basin and fell into Egypt. And this path went, which is also important, past the shores of Asia Minor.


"Ebora IV". Who knows, maybe this is what the ships of the ancient sailors of the Mediterranean looked like.

And so, in order to test the possibility of sea trade between Egypt and the Black Sea, which, incidentally, was reported by Herodotus, a certain Dominik Gorlitz gathered a team of like-minded people and built a reed boat "Ebora IV" *. The fact is that, in his opinion, epoch-making innovations in metallurgy, unlike many other achievements of ancient civilizations, occurred not in the East, but in the Balkans, Anatolia and Transcaucasia, where there was available raw material for smelting the first metals. There is evidence that for the first time in the history of mankind, bronze, gold, iron and even platinum were smelted here, and then it was from here that metallurgy spread further, to the cultural centers of South-West Asia.


Dominik Görlitz, "heir" of Thor Heyerdahl

Well, the ancient sailors could swim again on reed boats. Well, he decided to build such a boat and sail on it!

The "boat" was built near the Bulgarian port city of Varna under the leadership of the Bolivian Aymara Indians. They have already built the famous Ra-2 and Tigris rafts for Thor Heyerdahl. More than 75 ABORA members from nine countries also participated in the construction of the building. Unlike Thor Heyerdahl's reed boats, the new sailing vessel was equipped in accordance with ancient rock carvings with vertical centerboard keels, representing vertically inserted planks at the bow and stern. These "planks" work like a modern keel and allow the reed boat to sail across and even slightly against the wind. This was the only way to navigate such difficult waterways as the Dardanelles or the Cyclades region. Another highlight was the ship's passage through the Santorini caldera, where his crew sailed between the steep cliffs of a volcanic crater in variable winds. Then from Santorini "prehistoric sailors" headed for the Lycian coast to finish their sea voyage after more than 1500 km of journey in the port city of Kas near the ancient city of Patara. There he was pulled out of the water and ... erected as a monument: tourists can see him.


Patara Gate. In general, the Turks are very careful about their ancient Greek heritage. In Side, for example, the archaeological excavations in the city are built into the pavement, but covered with a transparent stack. You walk, and ancient life passes under your feet!

Goerlitz set himself the goal of showing that walking at an angle to the wind, tacking, as modern sailors say, is not something special for simple vessels like reed boats (though this boat weighs 12 tons!). The main thing is to build it correctly, “equip” it and know how to control its sailing and steering equipment.

The chronology of Goerlitz's expeditions on reed boats is as follows.

"Ebora I", 1999 For the first time sailed from Sardinia to Corsica and headed for the mouth of the Elbe. This was the first expedition on a reed boat. Gorlitz says that this structure had a mast too precisely centered, so it could move at an angle of no more than 90 ° to the wind, but not go against it.

Ebora II, 2002. She first demonstrated the ability to move back and forth in relation to the wind. The expedition sailed in the triangle Egypt - Lebanon and Cyprus. For the first time in our time, it was possible to experimentally prove that a prehistoric traveler can return to the starting point of the voyage. After all, the same Heyerdahl, by the way, never proved it. None of his ships ever returned.

Ebora III, 2007. It was also organized in order to prove the possibility of travel to America and back: in fact, it was a question of how those who came to the New World from the Old could return. Back then, all the experts believed that a return trip was impossible. However, Ebora III has demonstrated that a reed boat can overcome the eddies and storms of the North Atlantic and can independently return to its homeland, closing its route. Those. it was not a one-way ticket no return trip, as was previously thought.


The Goerlitz ship is now installed in Patara and is a "museum ship". It is a pity, of course, that I am now not a child and did not get here at the age of 14. I remember what I was then, and I can confidently say that I would have stood near him for a long time, and then I would have decided to build something similar and repeat the voyage ... of the Phoenicians around Africa in the era of Pharaoh Necho or the route of the Baurjed expedition from I. Efremov's dilogy “The Journey of Baurjed "And" On the edge of the Oycumene "

And now "Ebora IV" has passed by sea from Bulgaria to Patar.

What did this voyage prove? Here's what: if the sea traders of that time traveled in their reed boats between the Black, Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean Seas, they could very well carry cargo weighing several tons and thus avoid the difficult and much more dangerous land route. That navigation in the Black Sea and even crossing the Bosporus and Dardanelles was also quite possible for reed boats, which has been questioned by many experts until now. Well, and the fact that the sea trade of the ancient Egyptians with distant trading partners in the Black Sea, described by Herodotus, could really exist. The same applies to the trade in Aegean obsidian from the island of Melos, which is found in many places in the Mediterranean and confirms that the exchange of goods and cultural ideas developed long before the advent of civilizations that owned a written language, in the most hoary antiquity.


In Turkey, everything is for the people. Therefore, next to the ship there is an explanatory inscription in Turkish and English. It is interesting that in France 80% of similar inscriptions, even in museums, are only in French!

ABORA IV's voyage corresponded exactly to one of the intended trade routes from the Balkans across the Aegean Sea to the Eastern Mediterranean. In recent years, archaeologists have discovered amazing finds here, which confirm the existence of extensive trade routes, laid both along the seas and along the river systems of Europe in the Bronze Age.

* Ebora is the name of the solar deity, ancestor of La Palma (Canary Islands), the traditional god of the Guanches (Guanches is the name of the indigenous population of the Canary Islands) and their reed boats.


Of course, sailing on such "ships" is rather scary, feet are wet all the time!


Viracocha III. Bad examples, they say, are contagious, and now the South American reed ship "Viracocha" has been built and recovered to sail in the Pacific Ocean ...


This 60-foot boat was built in Chile in 2018. The cabin inside is quite spacious!


This is how a slice of totor's reed looks like

PS It's funny, but I talked about how to make a model of the Kon-Tiki raft in my very first book "From everything at hand" ("Polymya", 1987), about the model of the ship "Ra" from plastic - in the book “When the lessons are done” (“Polymya”, 1991), but about the model of a leather boat of another famous traveler-reenactor, Tim Severin, called “St. Brendan ", - in the book" For those who love to tinker "(" Enlightenment ", 1990). So this, apparently, was written to me - to be interested in exotic ships. And again I have to write about them! Well, you must!
Author:
Articles from this series:
Riddle: riders on the bas-reliefs with clubs in their hands
Minoan Pompeii: a mysterious city on a mysterious island
Antique ceramics and weapons
Gold for war, the fourth wonder of the world and Ephesus marble
Homer's poems as a historical source. Antique civilization. H. 1
Croatian apoxiomen from the water. Ancient civilization. H. 2
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 06: 36
    14
    Gorgeous! Thank you Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    I will supplement your postscript with your own descriptions of Greek rowing ships, including Argo (on VO in 2013). It was this cycle that drew my personal attention to the Topvar resource!
  2. tlauicol
    tlauicol 27 September 2020 06: 43
    12
    good
    Back in the 70s, the Polynesians built the Hokulea double-hulled canoe, and went around the entire Great Ocean inside and out, using ancient methods of navigation. And a couple of years ago we completed a trip around the world on it.http: //www.hokulea.com
    Ps Tour, of course, was mistaken, but it did not sit still
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 07: 10
      +5
      Deluded
      in what?
      In addition, all of his travels were one-way voyages. His ships failed to return back ...

      Reading T. Heyerdahl and J. Senkevich, with regards to the Ra and RaII expeditions, in all cases the episodic nature of the relationship between Africa and South America was described! Nobody has written about the stable cultural interpenetration that could arise from a permanent trade relationship. But with regard to Kon-Tiki, on the contrary, the possibility of mutual penetration with permanent trade and political ties was emphasized! There is a similar reasoning for the voyages to the Tigris!
      However, the recognition of the Phoenicians as the first shipbuilders of the ancient world was originally associated with the wealth of the ship's timber !!!
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 27 September 2020 07: 15
        +3
        about the settlement of Easter by Americans request
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 27 September 2020 07: 15
        +4
        It is believed that they built from Lebanese cedar.

        I am trying to understand - how widespread it was in the mountains, and how much it descended to the plain.
        1. kalibr
          27 September 2020 07: 27
          11
          The solar boats of the pharaohs were also built of Lebanese cedar, and two were found. One is in the Sun Boat Museum at the foot of the Great Pyramid, and, by the way, here was my article about it.
        2. parusnik
          parusnik 27 September 2020 07: 42
          +8
          Cedar, one of the Phoenician export items. In ancient Phenicia, cedar forests grew in huge numbers both in the mountains and in the foothills, and the more difficult it was to get it, the more expensive it became. Trees were cut down without replanting as the main material in shipbuilding. This led to the fact that by the XNUMXth century only isolated islands of greenery in remote places remained in place of the richest forests.
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 3 October 2020 18: 22
            +1
            Between the ancient Phoenicians and the present - 3 thousand years.
            Forests at a later time were cut down not for ships, but for heating
            houses and railway sleepers.
            The last forests in Palestine were cut down for the construction of the railway
            roads from Egypt to Turkey.
            In Lebanon, there are few forests left.
      3. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek 27 September 2020 10: 18
        +7
        Heyerdahl's reasoning is, of course, beautiful, but they are like Lomonosov's reasoning about history. The same level of use of materiel.
        To begin with, there are still traces of regular contacts between South Africa and Eurasia. More precisely, a trace. Such a huge one.
        It is called "sweet potato". Sweet potato. Which could only be brought on ships, because after a long stay in salt water, it will not stupidly rise.
        But there are no clear traces of transatlantic voyages on a regular basis until the Viking Age. All sensations on this score turn out to be either ducks, or fakes, or one of the two.
        1. Andobor
          Andobor 27 September 2020 14: 36
          +1
          There are also the same myths of the origin of cultivated plants, this does not happen by chance, you cannot drag this through Berengia - there were contacts, there is no archaeological evidence yet.
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek 27 September 2020 14: 42
            +3
            Identical - from whom, and about what plants?
            Convergent mythology is not a very rare thing, and the speed, direction, and deformation of the plots are dating moments, but I have not come across any works about the similarity of the myths of South Africa and Polynesia.
            1. Andobor
              Andobor 27 September 2020 16: 40
              +1
              Quote: AllBiBek
              Polynesia, I did not come across work.

              Yuri Berezkin deals with the motives of myths in this, - a serious specialist, there are his lectures on the network, he talks about the similarity of myths about the origin of cultivated plants in Asia and South America, says that it does not happen by chance, but he does not see any evidence of a connection.
              By the way, an old Soviet cartoon about Indians based on his works:
        2. Sergey Sfiedu
          Sergey Sfiedu 27 September 2020 21: 13
          0
          Sweet potatoes are not that simple. Someone there experimented - it turned out, all the same, some varieties may well rise after a long stay in sea water. And who knows how it really was. Geneticists speak of several single contacts on the Marquesas Islands somewhere around the 10-11 centuries, with Indians from the territory of modern Mexico and Colombia
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek 27 September 2020 22: 06
            +2
            Yes, there is such a moment.
            The end of the first wave of Austranesian expansion, reached Samoa and the surrounding islands, and the second wave continued with sweet potatoes.
            I don't know about the details, but if the genetic and other analyzes were carried out by South Americans, there may easily be an owl on the globe, and linguistics and folklore as arguments are so-so. According to their analyzes, the same Brazilians have won over the cave cliffs - one and a half hundred years, and among the Mexicans, the age of the earliest protocivioizations on their territory goes back to the Pleistocene, and nothing in this bothers them.
      4. Alex013
        Alex013 27 September 2020 14: 46
        +2
        "Tigris" in "Around the World" with Yuri Senkevich, excellent childhood memories))
  3. Korsar4
    Korsar4 27 September 2020 07: 01
    +7
    Wonderful. The travels of Heyerdahl and Tim Severin and others were also fascinating.

    As far as I understand, Totora reed is an American plant. Did the Indians bring him with them? Or did you use local species?
    1. kalibr
      27 September 2020 07: 24
      +7
      It is not clear from the explanatory text. There are tons, so it's expensive to fly. And the reed, I don't know which one, grows in Turkey and Cyprus.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 27 September 2020 07: 36
        +8
        The same Khyerdal, when building "Tigris", used reed mace, in other words, common reed.
        Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 27 September 2020 07: 40
          +8
          Cattail and reed are still different plants.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 27 September 2020 08: 02
            +6
            Sergei! hi
            You know better, of course, I talked about it: Týpha angustifólia
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 27 September 2020 11: 53
              +5
              Yes. It's a cattail. Reed is the genus Scirpus.
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 13: 22
      +3
      Quote: Korsar4
      Wonderful. The travels of Heyerdahl and Tim Severin and others were also fascinating.

      Sergey, and if you were lucky, would you give up on a similar voyage?

      One of Heyerdahl's proofs was that the Easter reeds were brought from South America !!!
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 27 September 2020 14: 42
        +3
        Yes. I try to "wander" to the best of my ability. Although he did not get out of Eurasia. From the set of books that came across in childhood and influenced something, one can also name about Fridtjof Nansen and his "Fram".
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 27 September 2020 17: 29
          +2
          ... about Fridtjof Nansen and his "Fram".

          The museum in Oslo is great.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 27 September 2020 17: 41
            +1
            Alas, I haven't made it from Scandinavia to Norway yet.
            1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 27 September 2020 20: 37
              +2
              Nothing, you will get there)
              Norway, by God, is worth it.
      2. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek 27 September 2020 14: 44
        +6
        Naturally from it, but it is not said when.
        Is it okay that in the first half of the 19th century, the entire population of the island was taken out by Chilean slave traders, and they also brought reeds so that there was at least some fuel and shelter on the island, since a garrison was planned there?
        By the way, the Chileans also brought coconut palms to it, but only later.
      3. Operator
        Operator 27 September 2020 15: 06
        +2
        Heyerdahl's hypotheses collapsed after genetic testing of the inhabitants of Oceania - among them, not a single carrier of haplogroups Q and C2, which includes the American Indians and Eskimos, was found.

        The indigenous people of Oceania, Hawaii, Papua, Indonesia, the Philippines, Australia and New Zealand belong to the carriers of the C1 haplogroup.
        1. Sergey Sfiedu
          Sergey Sfiedu 27 September 2020 21: 15
          0
          See my comment above. It was found, although the contacts were found to be isolated.
          1. Operator
            Operator 27 September 2020 21: 51
            +2
            What are the single contacts - every fourth / fifth Scandinavian has ancestors of blood relatives of the Slavs, who explicitly shared their skills in housing construction with other ancestors of the Scandinavians.
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 28 September 2020 01: 46
              0
              Yeah, that is, according to your Slavs, the ancestors of the Scandinavians? Oh, these fairy tales, oh, these storytellers.
              PS Sometimes it's a pity that the Inquisition was canceled. So it asks. Fomenko, Klyosova and the company on the fire (((
              1. Operator
                Operator 28 September 2020 03: 24
                +2
                What about your school arithmetic course in terms of simple fractions - the campaign didn't work out? laughing
                1. Icelord
                  Icelord 28 September 2020 03: 25
                  0
                  I'm talking about auto-da-fe, not quartering)))
  4. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 27 September 2020 07: 11
    +4
    Respect to the author. The unusual designs of ancient boats are amazing. When they had not yet learned how to build durable ships from wood, they built "disposable" ones from reeds. An inquisitive human mind drove people into the sea ... in search of adventure ... laughing
  5. pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 27 September 2020 07: 17
    +2
    In Turkey, everything is for the people. Therefore, next to the ship there is an explanatory inscription in Turkish and English. It is interesting that in France 80% of similar inscriptions, even in museums, are only in French!

    Vyacheslav Abramovich! Why didn't you duplicate the article in Turkish?
    1. kalibr
      27 September 2020 07: 22
      +9
      I am Olegovich, not Abramovich. And wherever I would give an article in Turkish and ... Google translation is the last thing! The site provides translation of materials in 5 languages. Many Turks know English.
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 27 September 2020 16: 15
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        I am Olegovich, not Abramovich.

        Sorry if you joked badly. Sunday!
        1. kalibr
          27 September 2020 16: 16
          +2
          Usually they baptize me with Oleg Vyacheslavovich ... Ha-ha!
          1. pmkemcity
            pmkemcity 28 September 2020 07: 36
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            Usually they baptize me

            So I was original! They all cross, but I cut off!
            1. kalibr
              28 September 2020 07: 52
              0
              Quote: pmkemcity
              So I was original! They all cross, but I cut off!

              Originality is expensive, even this!
  6. bubalik
    bubalik 27 September 2020 07: 29
    12
    here at 14 years old. I remember what I was then, and I can confidently say that I would have stood near him for a long time, and then decided to build something similar and repeat the voyage.

    ,, - Frigate, Pavlik! Frigate! Hooray!
    Jumping up, Kostya rushed to the river.
    Of course, there was no frigate anywhere nearby. And where does he come from on Cloudberry? On the other hand, near the willow-tree bushes, a raft was nailed to the shore - two thick logs, firmly connected by crossbeams and brackets. It can be seen that this raft was torn away by a flood somewhere from the boom, with which the raftsmen block the channels so that the wood would not be brought there during the rafting.

    Kile was not particularly enthusiastic about the find. He kicked the log and said:

    - Two logs. Where is the frigate?

    - Yes, here it is, a frigate. We will equip it now. Let's cut down the mast, put on the sail and sail ... Where will we sail? .. Let's sail to the island! (C)
  7. Olgovich
    Olgovich 27 September 2020 08: 20
    +9
    Turks are generally very careful about their ancient Greek heritage.

    Exaggeration: for example, a Studite monastery founded in 462 year by Flavius ​​Studios, turned into a mosque.

    A bitter fate befell almost all Christian churches in Asia Minor Greece, either destroyed or turned into mosques.

    And it continues to this day - the monastery of Chora, St. Sophia, and that the Turks have created with the ancient temples of Northern Cyprus already today ...
    built the famous rafts "Ra-2" and "Tigris" for Thor Heyerdahl. More than 75 ABORA members from nine countries also participated in the construction of the building.

    So all countries would always act in everything ...

    Project participant Yuri Sekevich is a constant good childhood friend from the breathtaking adventures of the "Club of Filmmakers", which I remember from the 1960s ...
    1. kalibr
      27 September 2020 14: 08
      +5
      Quote: Olgovich
      A bitter fate befell almost all Christian churches of Asia Minor

      We are talking about the ANCIENT HERITAGE. Do you feel the difference?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 27 September 2020 15: 18
        +3
        Quote: kalibr
        We are talking about the ANCIENT HERITAGE. Do you feel the difference?


        A ANCIENT GREEK Nicaea, Nicomedia, etc., - the Martians destroyed, destroying temples, total. buildings and building mosques, shacks, etc. from their stone?

        And the destroyed by the Turks the greatest Temple of the Holy Apostles (built in 330 with the tombs of the emperors, the first to St. Sophia), on the site of which the mosque was built, is very far from the "ancient" Greeks?
        1. kalibr
          27 September 2020 15: 21
          +4
          Many pagan temples were destroyed by Christians. When no one heard of the Turks in Asia Minor ...
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 27 September 2020 17: 44
            +2
            Temples also change after civilizations. So for the Umayyad mosque in Damascus, where the head of John the Baptist is kept, the predecessor was the Christian Church, and before it was a pagan temple.
      2. Sergey Sfiedu
        Sergey Sfiedu 27 September 2020 21: 18
        0
        The Turks in all seriousness believe that the ancient Greek monuments on the territory of Turkey were created not by the Greeks, but by the ancient Turks, who inhabited Asia Minor from time immemorial. So they are treated with care. And the heritage of despicable gyaurs is something to keep.
  8. KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD 27 September 2020 09: 20
    +3
    And why does everyone think that the routes of the ancient merchants were straight from point A (for example, the Black Sea) to point B (for example, Egypt)? - it is more logical to assume the movement from one large shopping center to another on the worked out route with transshipment and resale (re-exchange) of goods to other merchants. For merchants on flimsy low-speed boats it is safer, for a short period it is easier to choose a "window" with a low probability of storms, there is no need to replenish stocks many times, each expedition does not last for years at times, on a short stretch you know all the subtleties of the weather, forvays and other things. long expeditions, but if there are no intermediate ports (but then they probably went for safety in large caravans), and in one or a couple of ships and very far, then this is probably for reconnaissance or search purposes (for new markets and sources of value)
  9. Niel-le-Calais
    Niel-le-Calais 27 September 2020 10: 08
    +1
    contacts were made with almost all continents.
    Transfer of plants and products
    remnants of crops and even money.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 27 September 2020 12: 02
      +2
      Quote: Niel-le-Calais
      even money.

      which ones?
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 27 September 2020 12: 31
        +4
        Apparently messages in the media
        The Americans used a metal detector in Maine to find Roman bronze coins dating back to the reign of Emperor Alexander of the North, who was assassinated in 235 AD. In 1974, a similar coin was found near this site, dating from the same period. Fourth century coins were found in a sand dune in Beverly, Massachusetts, located on the north shore and 26 miles (41,84 km) from Boston.
        Roman coin depicting Septimius Severus, who was in power in Rome from 193 to 211. AD, was excavated in Grafton, Massachusetts, and another dating back to 80 AD was found near the Presumpscot River in Westbrook, Maine. Two more pieces dating from AD 72 were found at Bethel, Vermont.

        Source: https://travelask.ru/blog/posts/18333-kto-na-samom-dele-otkryl-ameriku-drevnie-rimlyane-ili-finiki
        There are several such cases struggling to find Roman coins in America.
        Up to a pile of amphora, etc.
        I don’t know how this relates. I have not met any intelligible opinion for and against
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 27 September 2020 13: 06
          +6
          Quote: Engineer
          I don’t know how this relates. I have not met any intelligible opinion for and against

          Well, at least among the versions of Roman artifacts in Venezuela and Mexico, the hypothesis of currents and storms that carried ships from some Canary thread or during coastal voyages to northern latitudes dominates so far) It is doubtful that the Romans consciously and purposefully crossed the Atlantic. Moreover, no one returned. Although, the frescoes in Pompeii depicting pineapple, again ....))
          But on the other hand, there is a lot of speculation - especially the fantasy about persecuted Christians who fled from Rome, procured ships, crossed the Atlantic and founded their settlement somewhere in Virginia. Nonsense, in my opinion.

          Quote: Engineer
          Up to a pile of amphora

          Well, yes, the sensation with the Roman junk found off the coast of Brazil (amphorae, dishes, ceramic anchors, etc.) very quickly faded away when divers found an 18th century Portuguese frigate at the bottom, carrying all this. The answer is ridiculously simple - the colonial officials, in connection with the enthusiasm for classicism that existed at that time, ordered themselves "kunststyuks" from the Old World)
          1. Liam
            Liam 27 September 2020 13: 22
            +1
            Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            frescoes in Pompeii depicting pineapple, again ....))

            Why is it so mysterious .. here is a 4-meter sculpture of a Roman "pineapple" of the 2nd century.

            https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pignone_(scultura)#:~:text=Il%20Pignone%20%C3%A8%20una%20scultura,nel%20complesso%20dei%20Musei%20Vaticani.
            1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 27 September 2020 13: 36
              +5
              ))
              here I am about the same)
              if Prof. Casella had not thrown in the idea with "pineapple", everyone would have been vegetating in ignorance, believing that these are pine cones)))))
              And after Casella saw the pineapple - everything, the pipe, the evidence of the transatlantic ties Rome - the New World is there! laughing
              Personally, it seems to me that this professor is just a leavened patriot) Like the Ukrainian Bebik.
              But Bortko has a pineapple on Pilate's table in his "Master and Margarita") HZ, what a fright - well, he is an artist, he can ...
        2. Liam
          Liam 27 September 2020 13: 09
          -1
          Quote: Engineer
          I don’t know how this relates.

          With humor
        3. Sergey Sfiedu
          Sergey Sfiedu 27 September 2020 21: 25
          +3
          As a child, I was shocked to find in my garden a Hungarian bargaining chip about 10 years ago. Miracle! Where is Hungary and where are we. Nobody seems to have been to Hungary. Everything turned out to be simpler - my aunt brought a coin to my older brother from a tour, and my brother lost it. I was small and did not know any of this. There is no miracle. Could the coins get to America through some collector?
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 27 September 2020 21: 53
            +1
            Of course they could.
            Coins May Have The Most Bizarre History
            Roman coins are found in Japan in the context of the 11-12 centuries. Explanation - they came from China where they walked in limited quantities for several centuries, being accepted as a means of payment by weight.
          2. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek 27 September 2020 23: 43
            +1
            Oh, there is such a thing.
            In the last century, the most natural antique marble statue was somehow caught in the coastal waters of Brazil. The sensation was - for the whole world. Especially when the second followed the first.
            And then they found the Portuguese ship itself, on which they had not been taken there, a batch of authentic ones. They were there in Lisbon at the court at one time, along with all the antique, they came into fashion sharply, so they were bought either in Pompeii or in Herculaneum for the occasion and in bulk, but soon Lisbon got sick, Portugal abruptly blown away, so the fashion quickly passed, not having managed to become ubiquitous.
      2. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek 27 September 2020 16: 27
        +2
        For example, cowrie shells.
        There are really a lot of them in the same Novgorod, in the layers of the 11-13 centuries.
        The version that they were used as money was put forward by Artsikhovsky at one time, and then supported by Yanin.
  10. AllBiBek
    AllBiBek 27 September 2020 10: 27
    +4
    So, after five thousand years, some Heyerdahl of his time flies to Mars with landing on what will be considered an "authentic interplanetary manned spacecraft of the mid-twentieth century", and relying on mat.tech part of his time, coupled with post-knowledge, and everything will repeat.
    This is me talking about transatlantic sailing on reed boats during the construction of the pyramids.
    True, Heyerdahl did not know that they were also covered with a special compound so that the cattail did not get wet, so it practically fell apart, but these are already details. He did not know how to read hieroglyphs, and did not even bother to read those who could read them, but with him everything is like that; since the theory contradicts the sources, the worse for the sources.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 27 September 2020 12: 00
      +3
      ehm ... I'm a skeptic too)
      Well, when Pytheus went beyond the Pillars of Hercules and ascended as much as 60 degrees N. and, having returned, he brought the legends about "the country of tin and amber", his contemporaries considered him a liar and a writer (who, however, were in abundance then, yes). But modern science considers this to be quite acceptable (Nansen was sure that Pytheas got all the way to Trondheim). Well, okay, Pytheas skirted Britain, let's say he got to Scandinavia. But the fact that the Phoenicians and Greeks climbed west of the Azores is, IMHO, unprovable. The argument that they "knew" about the existence of the Sargasso Sea is fantasy.
      1. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek 27 September 2020 12: 07
        +4
        Do I deny that a coaster can act as an oceanic one?
        I just say that in this role it will stay, at best, until the first mild storm.
        And so, along the coast, the Egyptians during the Middle Kingdom and to the south of Africa swam, and back.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 27 September 2020 12: 21
          +5
          Kind of completely circumnavigated Africa and returned via Gibraltar. The Pope of History confirmed.
          Denied again?)
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek 27 September 2020 13: 03
            +2
            And what about Herodotus?
            He, as a reliable source, does not channel, and I don’t recall any other confirmation right away.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 27 September 2020 13: 12
              +2
              Again "about Herodotus's malice"?
              As far as I know, the time of hypercritical attitude towards him is already in the past.
              There is something like Phoenician ships carved in stone in South Africa
              1. AllBiBek
                AllBiBek 27 September 2020 13: 19
                +2
                The attitude to him is not critical, but skeptical, and only in relation to the original source. He was not a contemporary of most of the events he described, he was not in most of the lands that he brought up, and what is there that there to record from the third, fifth or hundredth of hands - this is the OBS agency with a damaged telephone.
                Sima Qian, for example, does not have this, the Chinese with chronicles from the very beginning everything is clear, to the point, and without grotesque.
        2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 27 September 2020 12: 23
          +2
          so I did not argue with you) On the contrary, I share your skepticism regarding transoceanic campaigns.
        3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 13: 49
          +5
          Quote: AllBiBek
          Do I deny that a coaster can act as an oceanic one?
          I just say that in this role it will stay, at best, until the first mild storm.
          And so, along the coast, the Egyptians during the Middle Kingdom and to the south of Africa swam, and back.

          More precisely, the Phoenicians are still in the service of the pharaoh.
          Later, the Greeks were even able to organize trade with the British Isles.
          If you believe the "notes" of Julius Caesar, the Veneti possessed at least sailing ships capable of challenging the Atlantic!
          Here it is necessary to put the question bluntly, but did it have to be torn in America? Tridevyato Columbus, organizing a trip to the west, dreamed of the riches of India! The Vikings were brought to North America by His Majesty by chance! Considering that they were not looking for the laurels of the discoverers in the blue sea, it says a lot.
          By the way, in Iceland they got a foothold, and in Greenland they almost succeeded !!!
          So the engine of progress is like a lust for profit !!!
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek 27 September 2020 14: 09
            +2
            At the time of Caesar, there were already full-fledged sea vessels for the conditions of the Baltic.
            Oceanic drakkars appeared a little later.
            As for the Phoenicians and the British Isles, what about those islands? They can be seen from the mainland in clear weather, in order to get there even on a raft - that's enough.
            Actually, this is how they were settled back in the Paleolithic.
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 14: 44
              +2
              Drakkar is conventionally an ocean vessel. It is structurally weaker than the triremes of the Punic War. The hull is overlapped, there is no deck. In principle, before the ancient Greek pentera with pins fastened, the body in the joint, only the presence of a keel! And due to the huge number of nails, a stronger case.
              The question is different. The traders of the ancient world tried not to lose the shore in their voyages. But my case allowed, then they were sure to pull the ships on land. So the first ocean-going ships were still nao, korraki and nao. Why caravels and galleons.
              1. AllBiBek
                AllBiBek 27 September 2020 15: 31
                +2
                Structurally, the triremes sank en masse even during storms in the Aegean Sea, they are a purely coastal craft. The bottom row of oars is almost close to the water.
                Drakkar in this regard, even in the simplest version, is still able to pass through the same Baltic Sea in relatively good weather.
                And good weather for him is such, in which any antique ship will break the waves to pieces.
                1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 18: 23
                  +3
                  Quote: AllBiBek
                  Structurally, the triremes sank en masse even during storms in the Aegean Sea, they are a purely coastal craft. The bottom row of oars is almost close to the water.
                  Drakkar in this regard, even in the simplest version, is still able to pass through the same Baltic Sea in relatively good weather.
                  And good weather for him is such, in which any antique ship will break the waves to pieces.

                  At the same time, as a rule, they did not sink because of the lightness of the structure. The rammed biremes and triremes were towed by the Greeks and their counterparts as trophies.
                  Baltic and Mediterranean are closed water areas. In the Middle Ages, Genoese galleys operated in the Atlantic.
                  In fact, used in the time of Augustus Octavian liburn with some strengthening of the hull, could go into the Atlantic Ocean. In Indian, Roman fleets appeared sporadically. The dow with the Latin sail is a contemporary of the Drakkar and Knorr.
            2. Operator
              Operator 27 September 2020 15: 13
              +2
              The British Isles were settled on foot at the end of the last ice age along the shoals on the site of the future North Sea.
              1. AllBiBek
                AllBiBek 27 September 2020 15: 27
                +3
                Shallows are not land; shallows are shallows.
                On the other hand, in the Upper Paleolithic, there is a very strange fear of water among people, water is a different world.
                So far, there is no established version about the timing of the settlement of the British Isles by the Do-Celts, but - the Wurmsky glacier did not lower the sea level to the creation of a land bridge (this is not Doggerland in Acheule for you), so most likely they did swim. Whether on rafts or dugouts, but part of the way is by swimming.
                1. Operator
                  Operator 27 September 2020 15: 31
                  +2
                  See below the comments of kalibr'a - starting from the 19th century, fishermen began to extract flint and bone tools, remains of buildings of the Stone Age from the bottom of the Doherrbanka in the North Sea.
                  1. AllBiBek
                    AllBiBek 27 September 2020 16: 04
                    +3
                    I remember that stuff.
                    The topic of redeposition in the cultural layers of the Paleolithic is not disclosed there at all, and in the conditions of water rise - something confident can be said not today, and not tomorrow.
                    I know monuments of the Paleolithic, which a lot of people have been studying for decades, but one fig on separate layers is not clear how many times and from where it was redeposited.
                    1. Operator
                      Operator 27 September 2020 16: 34
                      +2
                      Re-postponing in the specific case of Doggerbank - how is it?
                      1. AllBiBek
                        AllBiBek 27 September 2020 16: 44
                        +2
                        It is washed off by streams from coastal monuments, and deposited at the bend of the coastal current, in the so-called pocket.
                        Actually, the same gold, according to the same principle, is washed, which is - it settles in the place where the current makes a sharp turn.
                      2. Operator
                        Operator 27 September 2020 16: 56
                        +2
                        How can the flushing of silicon products from the shore be deposited on the elevation of the seabed?
                      3. AllBiBek
                        AllBiBek 27 September 2020 17: 25
                        +3
                        Elementary.
                        In a stream of water, it will be carried faster than anything else due to the ratio of mass to surface area, the plates are still thin.
                        And it will not break on the sand, but the traceology cannot be done on this, the entire surface is scratched into a bunch of layers.
                        The morphology remains, and it has a chronological error greater than that of the FAU-2 missiles when firing from the mainland at London.
                      4. Operator
                        Operator 27 September 2020 18: 21
                        +1
                        What kind of water flows in the coastal area of ​​the North Sea that occurred after the disappearance of the glacier (according to the carbon dating of finds from wood)?

                        And how do you imagine the stream from the shore, which climbs the bottom hill into the sea?
          2. Korsar4
            Korsar4 27 September 2020 16: 47
            +2
            The ancient Greeks said that a person can be alive, can be dead, and can be stepped on the deck of a ship while sailing.
      2. kalibr
        27 September 2020 15: 24
        +2
        Quote: AllBiBek
        Actually, this is how they were settled back in the Paleolithic.

        Then Britain was connected to Europe by land. The land was the bottom of the North Sea, and the Rhine flowed along the bottom of the English Channel into the Atlantic.
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 27 September 2020 15: 32
          +2
          This is in Achel, and, in part, in Mousterian.
          There was no smell of sapiens of our species there yet, there were still Heidelbersis just outside of Africa.
    2. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 27 September 2020 14: 49
      +4
      Not quite.
      The Greenlanders were brought into the Gulf of St. Lawrence in search of timber and sources of iron (in Greenland, there is nothing with them at all), but they suffered because, if before the start of the Crusades, Denmark sent two ships to Greenland a year for walrus tusk (and other export items was not there), then after them - ivory went to Europe from BV, and it is better and cheaper.
      At that time, the Greenlanders still had oceanic drakkars, among several pieces, and the skills of the corresponding navigation.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 27 September 2020 15: 07
        +3
        There were also narwhal tusks, an insanely expensive status item. Under the brand of unicorn horns - on bishop's wands and royal cups.
        Plus skins of polar bears.
        Additional reasons to climb north
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 27 September 2020 15: 18
          +6
          Were
          But the Greenlanders did not hunt him.
          They went to the polar bear, even the cubs were sent to Denmark, alive.
          Walrus - massively beaten.
          Seals - at the end of the colonies - were beaten very actively, the upper layers of all garbage dumps - even near rich houses - are almost entirely seal bones.
          But they didn't catch fish at all. They had a taboo, Eric the Red bequeathed.
          And there was no whaling.
          Everything is strange there, even very strange. For example, in all the sagas there are only two descriptions of clashes with the Inuit (or those who were before the Inuit, they are also newcomers there), and then they are not people, but folk characters who die only from severe blood loss.
          For the same reason, they could not resist in America, chauvinists to the core.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 27 September 2020 15: 21
            +2
            Were
            But the Greenlanders did not hunt him.

            No remains of narwhals in cultural layers?
            Well, maybe due to the fact that it was butchered right on the ships. Narwhals are small, and their tusks are extremely valuable. And they were rare even at that time.
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek 27 September 2020 15: 37
              +2
              No.
              There is no data on what they cut on the ships, but there are no horns in the lists of exported goods.
              Teeth, yes. More skins.
              Sewing boats from the same walrus skins - they did not think of it. Although in the cathedral - it is there, there is a classic European, and it is the cathedral - there are walrus skulls with tusks, and there are many.
              The excitement around the horns of a unicorn in Europe before the Renaissance, I don't remember at all, although the unicorn question in world mythology was closed very tightly.
              The unicorn horn as an antidote is the era of poisons, and this is not the time of the existence of the Greenland colony.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 27 September 2020 15: 42
                +2
                There is no data on what they cut on the ships, but there are no horns in the lists of exported goods.

                This is an argument.
                The excitement around unicorn horns in Europe before the Renaissance, I don't remember at all,

                What I saw in Hoffburg and Esztergom at least the 15th century. Just thought that due to the antiquity of the legend "it has always been this way"
                1. kalibr
                  27 September 2020 18: 48
                  +2
                  Quote: Engineer
                  The hype around unicorn horns in Europe

                  In Cluny I saw a horn and a tapestry about a unicorn. Here's what to write will be !!!
                2. Operator
                  Operator 27 September 2020 19: 05
                  +1
                  Narwhal tusk, obviously.
                3. kalibr
                  27 September 2020 19: 52
                  +2
                  Sure! Only until I realized it-ha-ha, the inscriptions in French, it took a lot of time.
      2. Engineer
        Engineer 27 September 2020 15: 28
        +3
        About chauvinists
        I need to find a documentary describing the opening of Slavic type dugouts in Iceland
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 27 September 2020 15: 45
          +5
          If you are talking about the early square meter depths with a log house and a sod roof, they, of course, look like the dwellings of the Prague culture, but there is a chronological spread of several centuries.
          Plus, in the dugouts of the Prague culture, the roof did not reach the ground from the sides, there was no point in saving wood.
          The early Icelandic ones - already with a roof to the ground, they are lower than the Prague ones, they are not square, but rectangular, there is a different way of fastening logs in a log house (and firewood in Iceland ran out quickly and began to be made without log cabins), and a number of differences.
          But I don’t deny, they could have peeped the concept from the Western Slavs, the Scandinavians had already periodically nightmarized them.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 27 September 2020 15: 49
            +2
            You know everything)
            Maybe the captives built for themselves?
            In the saga of Egil, Ketil, the Irishman, is mentioned, a slave or servant who behaved too greyhound. Perhaps there were Slavs in the same status
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek 27 September 2020 15: 59
              +5
              Easily.
              One of the features of Scandinavian expansion is its local flexibility. The Scandinavians dragged with them a very specific set of agricultural crops and livestock, but on the spot they were very quickly pumped from the local peculiarities of the local realities, were quickly born with the local nobility, and quickly acquired local wives.
              At the exit - a new people in a couple of generations.
              So it was with everyone except the unfortunate Greenlads. But even they had enough stock of traditions to quickly abandon the breeding of pigs, sheep, and goats (it was in this order that the Scandinavians bred cattle), and concentrate on the least destroying the fields of cows. Icelanders, by the way, have concentrated on sheep breeding.
              But there is no fish around ...
              This is comparable to the insanity of the inhabitants of Easter Island, they have one of the largest seabird nests there, and only chickens from domestic animals, but they did not eat eggs in any form, even when they reached cannibalism and corpse-eating.
            2. Engineer
              Engineer 27 September 2020 16: 04
              +2
              It is interesting. Thank you
            3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 18: 00
              +4
              Quote: Engineer
              It is interesting. Thank you

              It was very interesting!!!
              Thank you very much for the discussion, recently it is rare when something like this can be devoured on VO !!!
              Regards, Vlad!
            4. Engineer
              Engineer 27 September 2020 18: 03
              +4
              Yes to health)
              Thank you very much for the discussion, recently it is rare when something like this can be devoured on VO !!!

              Everything is in our hands and interesting discussions and articles)
            5. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 18: 37
              +4
              Quote: Engineer
              Yes to health)
              Thank you very much for the discussion, recently it is rare when something like this can be devoured on VO !!!

              Everything is in our hands and interesting discussions and articles)

              Alas, not everything is so simple, recently a number of advanced members of the forum (Traditionalists) have been persecuted on the resource. Literally in a week, we (the community on the History branch) lost Dmitry (Rich). So it’s sad, but “non-fans of falkhistori” sometimes do not stand the “injustice” and leave without return, waving their hand.
              Regards, Vlad!
            6. Engineer
              Engineer 27 September 2020 19: 44
              +2
              Who is even a little aware of whether they are banned only by the amount of warnings or is it no longer necessary?
              Octopus, O "Neill, Frankenshtuser, maybe not very popular, but quite noticeable users who opposed the local ideological mainstream, were banned for a month.
              Still, to be afraid of the ban - do not go to Wo)
              In VO everything that does not concern modern history is closely occupied by traditional historians. Let it stay that way
    3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 18: 30
      +2
      So it was with everyone except the unfortunate Greenlads.

      And yet, a number of authors, including Burevoy, in their writings believe that the last Greenlanders were finished off by the aliens. Even the chain of expansion is described, from the rise of the Empire of Genghis Khan to the last "cut" Viking of Greenland!
    4. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 27 September 2020 22: 14
      +3
      And so it is.
      The last inhabitants of the Western Settlement were finished off by the Inuit, shortly after the last men of the Dorset culture on the island were finished off, and their women were taken for themselves. They have this moment reflected in folklore. The Greenlanders then already had hunger with might and main, and they stupidly could not fight back. Without that they would have died of hunger.
      They were not aware of the Eastern settlement, and until they got to it, it died out of hunger and without their help.
      In the last year of their lives, the last inhabitants finished eating their last cows even before the height of winter, the winter was cold, the seals did not come, and that's all.
      The dead were the last to be found where they died, without traces of violent death.
    5. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 22: 17
      +1
      I read about Inuitoa! I did not know about the eastern settlement, I confess.
  • Engineer
    Engineer 27 September 2020 21: 46
    +2
    It seems to be finished discass, but something did not rest for me
    I tried to restore at least a little information about those dugouts.
    Apparently this gentleman dug them out
    https://iaepan.academia.edu/PrzemyslawUrbanczyk?nbs=user
    In his article article Violent peace in medieval Iceland he speaks of the Slavs in Iceland as a fact
    Analyzes of available historical sources allow supplementing the ethnic contribution with Sami (Lapps) and Germans / Saxons while archaeological data suggest presence of some Slavs (P. Urbańczyk 2004a: 116–119; 2004b; in print)

    Urbanchik refers to his works
    2004a Zdobywcy północnego Atlantyku, Wrocław.
    2004b Breaking the monolith: multi-cultural roots of the North Atlantic settlers,
    [in:] “Vinland Revisited. The Norse World at the Turn of the First
    Millennium ”, S. Lewis-Simpson (ed.), St. John's, p. 45 - 50
    I could not dig them up (
  • Operator
    Operator 27 September 2020 19: 14
    +2
    1/4 of Icelanders (as well as 1/4 of Norwegians, 1/5 of Swedes and Danes) are descendants of the carriers of the R1a of the Western European subclade - blood relatives of the Slavs (carriers of the R1a of the Eastern European subclade).

    Their family ties were interrupted in the third millennium BC. after the migration of the first to the Scandinavian Peninsula (together with the carriers of I1).
  • Engineer
    Engineer 27 September 2020 11: 20
    +3
    We cannot accurately record the elements of influence that, as he believes, rafts and reed boats brought across the oceans. What do the inhabitants of South America or Mexico have that would say: yes, there were contacts with Ancient Egypt, these artifacts unambiguously confirm this!

    You can recall the findings of alleged traces of tobacco and cocaine on Egyptian mummies. Pops up quite regularly in the media and immediately fades away
    https://svr.su/content/item/3597/
    https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2292181
    https://lsvsx.livejournal.com/820258.html

    Science hides again. "And who joined them" .... Shpakovsky too laughing

    By the way, from the latter. Inca dogs discovered the genome of the Bundsø breed from Denmark
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 27 September 2020 12: 10
      +4
      I know this story.
      Pollution from the beginning of the last century.
      Discovered in the 70s, palynologists denied it in the 00s. At the time of discovery, palynology had not yet reached the accuracy of pollen dating at the level of dendrochronology in some cases, but here it is.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 27 September 2020 12: 15
        +3
        Eh, the lieutenant came, he vulgarized everything ...
        Although I did not quite understand.
        Traces of this lewdness were found on mummies. The same cocaine turns out to be simply analyzed separately from everything, relying on new advances in palynology and received the 19th century?
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 27 September 2020 13: 00
          +2
          There, an evolutionary-typological series works especially well on cultivated plants.
          Palynology is a mortal boredom even by botanical standards, where this pollen is examined and measured in every possible way.
          In general, to localize a subspecies in time and space, it is enough to take a core and disassemble it under a microscope.
          Work - where there is Cinderella and a mixture of ash and flour, there are even smaller values ​​of the original parts.
          But, somehow there are fans of that. Where there are figured embroiderers with silk on silk, who sew one picture for 10 years.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 27 September 2020 13: 13
            +3
            And it all started so well ...
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 22: 24
      +2
      ... By the way, from the latter. Inca dogs discovered the genome of the Bundsø breed from Denmark

      Not an argument, but if they found the genome of a European domestic cat, it would be a sensation worthy of coverage and attention! And here is a dog, she is a dog in Africa!
      laughing
      I could not resist, I mocked! I’ll go to the roof, sit out, or now they’ll run over to “ask”! I raised the refrigerator yesterday, as if I was looking into the water, the chuyka did not disappoint.
  • Force multiplier
    Force multiplier 27 September 2020 11: 52
    -7
    Troy, Paris and Agamemnon are the Baltic, and the ships there are not reed
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 27 September 2020 12: 11
      10
      Yah?
      And the men do not even know.
      Order of the Reverend Fomenko with swords and bows to you for this discovery.
      1. Force multiplier
        Force multiplier 27 September 2020 13: 36
        -4
        Yes, it is clear that they do not know and do not read the primary sources. But they like to speak out in the comments and for some reason believe that they differ in something from Fomenko
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 27 September 2020 13: 56
          +6
          So it seems like I'm not here declaring that Troy was in the Baltic, but you.
          But yes, the sprues are exactly on the Troy Unuya all over the Black Sea region - this is due to the fact that the epicenter is in the Baltic, there is just an exacerbation of tectonic activity there, and Atlantis - with its capital in Troy - goes under water.
          1. Force multiplier
            Force multiplier 27 September 2020 14: 05
            -3
            You haven't read Homer. Or read, but your cognitive abilities are only enough for clowning. So let's not waste time
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek 27 September 2020 14: 10
              +5
              This can already be perceived as "Oh, is that all?"
              1. Force multiplier
                Force multiplier 27 September 2020 14: 14
                -5
                Not interested. Shine Google erudition in front of someone else
                1. AllBiBek
                  AllBiBek 27 September 2020 14: 26
                  +8
                  On this issue, I have it just not from Google, but by profile. And you?
                  1. Force multiplier
                    Force multiplier 27 September 2020 14: 32
                    -6
                    Don't you understand the first time? Is Russian not your native language? Not interested
                    1. AllBiBek
                      AllBiBek 27 September 2020 14: 34
                      +9
                      Not native, by the way.
                      Yes, I don’t understand the first time where Troy came from in the Baltic. You claim to be from Herodotus, but you don’t want to indicate in which of the volumes.
                      Did I miss anything?
  • Lynx2000
    Lynx2000 27 September 2020 13: 45
    +4
    what
    Probably very ancient sailors sailed on reed / reed boats.
    During the construction of the pyramid of Pharaoh Khufu (Cheops), the Egyptians used collapsible ships made of overlapping boards (clinker connection) connected by belts and ropes to cross the Red Sea for copper ore. It was the 25th century BC ...

    An oblique sail allows the ship to move not only with the wind, at an angle and with the wind. If I am not mistaken, such sails were called Egyptian (or Roman).

    I don’t think that when they didn’t build ships from wood with planks and ship kits, but sailed on boats made of reeds / reeds, trade and communications were so developed that required such movements. Most likely it was the time of Ötzi.
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 27 September 2020 13: 53
      +4
      In the time of Ötzi and even earlier, plank boats of the shadand type were already known.
      The entire Neolithic of the Mediterranean - on five flint outcrops and two - obsidian, with centers of its splitting into plates at the outlets, and a sea trade network for delivery throughout the region.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 14: 48
        +2
        Quote: AllBiBek
        In the time of Ötzi and even earlier, plank boats of the shadand type were already known.
        The entire Neolithic of the Mediterranean - on five flint outcrops and two - obsidian, with centers of its splitting into plates at the outlets, and a sea trade network for delivery throughout the region.

        And yet the ball is the dugout rule! Getting a board in the Neolithic period was a difficult and long work! The Minoans experimented with half-logs for you.
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 27 September 2020 14: 58
          +6
          Nope.
          Dugouts are Mesolithic.
          And letting trees with wooden wedges on thick boards is a distinctive feature of the Neolithic forest zone, and from the very beginning.
          For the same Scandinavia, this is very well traced, there, with the beginning of the Holocene, there was a massive felling of deciduous trees by aliens from the coast and inland. And the main inventory is axes of all kinds.
          Using them, the scale of felling was calculated using traceology, as well as what and how much they cut. Stone hammers for wedging logs are also in considerable quantity.
          The first generalizing works on the peculiarities of economic activity during the settlement of Scandinavia in the Mesodite-Neolithic are the middle of the last century, several years before the first Novgorod birch bark letters. Further on this topic, only the accumulation of factology, I do not seem to remember any cardinal revisions.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 18: 09
            +3
            And all the same, before the appearance of the iron longitudinal saw "to make" a ship board - "hellish work" !!!
            You admire the persistence of our ancestors! Regarding the Neolithic, I took notes.
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek 27 September 2020 18: 45
              +2
              On the contrary.
              The most difficult thing is to knock down the desired tree with a stone ax.
              A wedge in skillful hands - one pair, and obviously with less effort than a longitudinal saw, the entire trunk in two is a couple of hours of fuss.
              Another thing is that you need experience.
              1. Lynx2000
                Lynx2000 28 September 2020 02: 03
                +3
                Dumping a tree is a simple matter. The main thing is to save the trunk when it falls.
                Experimental archeology has shown that it takes less than an hour to cut down a tree with a diameter of 25 cm at the butt with a stone ax.
                Known methods of dumping a tree in a slow way, digging in and chopping the roots.
                Splitting a log into boards is a responsible and more time-consuming process.
                To obtain blanks of the same thickness from the butt to the tip, splitting with wedges is carried out towards.
                The workpieces are obtained as logs, not boards; these so-called "logs" are already split and cut to the board.
                In any case, wood was processed in this way in Siberia even in the 19th century, along with sawing with a longitudinal saw.
  • Operator
    Operator 27 September 2020 14: 55
    +2
    The obstinacy of fans of reed boats is not understandable - with the exception of their guru Thor Heyerdahl, of course, but he had no choice: there is no land route between America and the islands of Oceania, and the American Indians, before the arrival of the Europeans, did not learn how to build sufficiently displacement vessels (with the exception of reed), which can take on board provisions for several tens of days to travel through the "ocean desert" (deep-water areas of the Pacific Ocean) at a distance of several thousand kilometers.

    Here, in a fig, it was the inhabitants of the Black Sea region, Attica or Asia Minor, surrounded by the then woodlands with century-old trees, who perfectly mastered the skills of making single-trees, including in the form of boats with curved ends up to 30 meters long and up to 3 meters wide, to attend to the viscous miracle Yudo floating craft made of reeds?

    Plus a vivid example of Phenicia, which carried out its trade expansion throughout the Mediterranean Sea already in the 2nd millennium BC. on wooden (of course), and not on reed boats - which clearly should have suggested even the most stupid inhabitants of Attica and Asia Minor the direction of development of local shipbuilding laughing
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 27 September 2020 15: 21
      +2
      Not yours.
      Google the Inca rafts, information is the sea.
      1. Operator
        Operator 27 September 2020 15: 26
        +2
        Did I really talk about the lack of reed floating craft among the American Indians?

        I was talking about something completely different: the lack of such floating facilities among the inhabitants of the Black Sea region, Attica, Asia Minor and the Middle East (Phenicia) - as unnecessary due to the abundance of timber.
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 27 September 2020 15: 49
          +2
          So I misunderstood).
          But in general, about ten years ago, some stoned RGO-shniki sailed the three northern seas on a raft made of plastic bottles.
          I suspect that the laurels of Tours were not allowed to sleep since childhood, so they decided to surpass the reed boat.
          There was no worldwide excitement about this.
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 18: 13
        +4
        Quote: AllBiBek
        Not yours.
        Google the Inca rafts, information is the sea.

        Each was sophisticated in his own understanding and availability of material.
        For example, rafts made of bovine skins, carcasses of willow or birch covered with seal skins or bark pies !!!
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 27 September 2020 18: 47
          +2
          Only the Incas came up with a completely sea-going seaworthy raft.
          This is despite the fact that there is the world's largest navigable river on the mainland.
          But these are the civilizations of South Africa, everything is not the same with them as with us.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 18: 54
            +2
            The same Chukchi and Aleuts cut across the Bering Sea on their kayaks and kayaks, and these are not persimmon flies - the border of the Arctic and Pacific oceans! V. Bereng - lost a ship that was quite modern for the 18th century!
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek 27 September 2020 20: 35
              +4
              The kayak, umiak, and open sea canoe are even younger than the ocean canoe, not to mention the sea drakkar.
              Yeah, it's hard to believe, by default it seems that the aborigines of the Far North have been swimming on this since the time of mammoths.
              And no.
              If we take Greenland, since we are dancing from it, then Eskimos on large canoes appeared there during the time of Alexander Nevsky. And the Viking colony at that time existed there for a quarter of a century.
              Before the Inuit, there were the cultures of Thule and Dorset, these knew two-seater walrus boats, and did not go out to sea on them far.
              And before that there was a pre-Dorset culture, they didn't even have such boats.
              Extensive research on this issue was carried out twenty years ago, when another Heyerdahl decided to prove by his example that the settlement of North America went not through Beringia, but through Greenland. And the argument was exactly in the style of Heyerdahl, they say, the European tips of the Solutre culture suspiciously resemble the American Clovis, only without the lower notch. And that's all.
              But, with a group of the same freaks, he really dragged the canoe several hundred kilometers on the ice and without a dog's pull.
              It was then that American archaeologists often visited Greenland, although the theory was initially sucked from the finger, but they also have pluralism of opinions and democracy there.
              And so, the spread of whaling from the canoe in the Far North is the time of the baptism of Rus. At that moment, the naval drakkars had already successfully reached Baghdad bypassing Europe, and a little later they were already landing Norman troops in Sicily and southern Italy.
              Somehow I can say so on this issue.

              Sincerely, Anatoly
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 September 2020 22: 09
                +3
                I will give you just a small outline from memory, and you Anatoly gave me a detailed answer to almost three of my scattered comments! I just have to throw up my hands and say thank you.
                From myself I will say only one thing. Drakkar ship of the Iron Age. Even a Pomor boat, five centuries later, carried fewer iron nails than a Viking ship.
                The ocean canoe is probably the same age as the Slavic boat (the beginning), both are younger than the drakkar, but made almost without a single nail. However, like most of the unambiguously later planes.
                Regards, Vlad!
                Ps Already in the 18th century, Spanish inspectors criticized shipyards for building galleons with a large number of nails for their rigidity.
                1. AllBiBek
                  AllBiBek 27 September 2020 22: 23
                  +4
                  Well, why would he not carry the table to iron, when Scandinavia from the beginning of our era and up to the time of Peter the Great is one of the main European centers of ferrous metallurgy, and for a long time it was practically the main one?
                  The same Greenlanders did the first thing in Vinland when they tried to gain a foothold there - they set up the production of iron nails, and these were ordinary colonists, and most of them were indigenous Greenlanders, that is, how to get and forge iron - in practice they did not know, but knew from words elders.
                  But in general, how many schemes for the construction of drakkars have come across to me, the main load there is not on the nails, they are more for additional fortress. The connecting elements there are made of wood, and there are very complex structures.
              2. Icelord
                Icelord 28 September 2020 02: 11
                +2
                Well, out of the blue or not, it's hard to say, I have a good friend, just an American archaeologist, and so he said there are serious doubts about beringia. There is a discrepancy with the chronology, there is an opinion that America was settled later than thought. So they are looking for an alternative.
                1. kalibr
                  28 September 2020 07: 25
                  +1
                  Quote: Icelord
                  I have a good friend just an American archaeologist

                  Igor! Well, "spin" it into an article for VO ... Well, what are you waiting for ...
                  1. Icelord
                    Icelord 28 September 2020 08: 42
                    0
                    Good day, Vyacheslav Olegovich. I'm afraid the topic will be specific, dry and therefore not very interesting to most
                    1. kalibr
                      28 September 2020 10: 27
                      +2
                      This, Igor, is how to present it ... It all depends on ... "manners". Most readers today don't care what, but how.
              3. Icelord
                Icelord 28 September 2020 03: 04
                +2
                There are no less adherents of the Solutrean hypothesis among American archaeologists than opponents. The wrong ones cannot prove the correctness, since archaeological artifacts seem to confirm it, but geneticists and oceanographers doubt
                1. AllBiBek
                  AllBiBek 28 September 2020 08: 46
                  0
                  Leafy bifaces, which are closer to Clovis than to Solutra, are known from the Eastern Gravettes, but not from the Western. This is, relatively speaking, the culture of mammoth hunters, and it is at least from the Dnieper to the Urals. Few (less than paleovenere from the same place), but there is.
                  Plus, at the moment a good base is being formed for the localization of pre-clovis in Chukotka, but not in Greenland. Plus, Clovis is not the first in America, they are simply simultaneous with Solutra, and they are dead ends (American colleagues like the Big Ball hypothesis as explanatory for almost everything).
                  But, that's their business. This is the Paleolithic, and the Upper one, there are practically no clear axioms, and those that exist are fewer and fewer from year to year.
                  1. Icelord
                    Icelord 28 September 2020 10: 45
                    +1
                    I myself am not an archaeologist, but I have not heard that objects such as Clovis were found in Beringia, but Solutre is almost one to one, I myself do not argue because there is not enough competence, but the opinion is not mine, but your overseas colleague from the Smithsonian Institute. He received a doctor of sciences for this case. And under tequila in Mexico he told me this for a week)))
                    1. AllBiBek
                      AllBiBek 28 September 2020 11: 36
                      +1
                      ))
                      So Beringia is at the bottom, and archeology has not yet reached such heights.
                      As for the morphological similarity between Clovis and Solutre, it is superficial. It goes without saying that it is based on enhanced pressing with a horny squeegee, but in Solutra there is also a soft release through an intermediary, while in Clovis it is in the tradition of gravett, straight. Hence a lot of marriage, up to a third somewhere.
                      I hope the solute hypothesis will be finally refuted during my lifetime. It is absurd, like all morphological theories.

                      Can you tell me, did he tell you about the "paradox of the late Deistocene hiatus"?
                  2. Icelord
                    Icelord 28 September 2020 11: 04
                    +1
                    And yes, by the way, he himself does not connect the sunset of the Clovis culture with the cometary hypothesis, the time frames do not quite coincide
                    1. AllBiBek
                      AllBiBek 28 September 2020 11: 39
                      +1
                      So we never connected them, implosive hypotheses are not held in high esteem.
                      In our country, almost no one supports the meteorite hypothesis of the death of dinosaurs, and a similar one at the junction of the Paleozoic and Mesozoic is very carefully used. And even more so they do not support the "theory of the methane gun".
                      However, we also have enough supporters of strange hypotheses.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 27 September 2020 17: 16
    +7
    Quote: Olgovich
    And the great Temple of the Holy Apostles destroyed by the Turks (

    The Church of the Holy Apostles in 1204 was destroyed and plundered by the crusaders during the fourth crusade.
    In 1453, when the Turks took Constantinople, these were abandoned ruins demolished by the Turks in 1461.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 27 September 2020 22: 34
    +3
    Ebora IV, one of Görlitz's reed boats afloat under sail. Vertically standing keel boards are clearly visible
    These are not keels. This is called shvertsy.
  • Icelord
    Icelord 28 September 2020 11: 43
    0
    Quote: AllBiBek
    ))
    So Beringia is at the bottom, and archeology has not yet reached such heights.
    As for the morphological similarity between Clovis and Solutre, it is superficial. It goes without saying that it is based on enhanced pressing with a horny squeegee, but in Solutra there is also a soft release through an intermediary, while in Clovis it is in the tradition of gravett, straight. Hence a lot of marriage, up to a third somewhere.
    I hope the solute hypothesis will be finally refuted during my lifetime. It is absurd, like all morphological theories.

    Can you tell me, did he tell you about the "paradox of the late Deistocene hiatus"?


    No, I didn't. What is this? And the concept of Beringia is usually also understood as Chukotka, Kamchatka and Alaska. At least they have
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 28 September 2020 15: 34
      +1
      Oh, the mystery of the hiatus is the Grail.
      Roughly speaking, on all the monuments of the Eastern Gravett - and there everything is very, very individual there - there is a gap when they were empty for several centuries.
      And then people returned, and all the monuments were revived in almost the same traditions as they were. As if the same people came and not their descendants.

      It seems that, depending on the place, they professed this or that material culture with all its features.

      Common there is only the type of camps, Kostenkovsko-Avdeevsky, with its lines of hearths, dugouts, and utility pits.

      How they did it - there is not even a relatively plausible hypothesis.
      1. Icelord
        Icelord 28 September 2020 15: 38
        0
        Indeed, it is interesting. It is necessary to read a thread on this topic. Would you recommend?
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 28 September 2020 17: 19
          +1
          But there are no narrow works (. Always casually, and most often at conferences. Usually in context.
          And so, the Upper Paleolithic of the Russian Plain, in general.
      2. Icelord
        Icelord 28 September 2020 17: 20
        0
        Dear, Anatoly someone does not like archeology and we are minus. Science is evil)))))
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 29 September 2020 18: 52
          0
          If Heyerdahl were alive, he would definitely have minus).
          If only because I did not read the Egyptian primary sources about the "black rooks", and they were already published in English, I did not study the archaeological finds on the issue, and there are remnants of black rooks there, and a lot, and if I read, I would make the swamp the Arabs, who built him a floating craft, smear its surface with bitumen, as the Egyptians did.
          However, then Ra would not have sunk, having barely reached America, and he would definitely have gone back on it.
          But, history does not tolerate subjunctive moods.
          1. Icelord
            Icelord 29 September 2020 21: 16
            0
            And yet he was a hero. And proved something