Military Review

In the US press: Further development of aviation may not be related to the Su-57 and F-35

94

There are many misconceptions about America's secret Next Generation Air Dominance Demonstrator (NGAD) technology, which stands for New Generation of Air Dominance. It may not be at all what we think.


Tyler Rogoway discusses this in an article published by The Drive.

According to the author, the development of this program will ultimately lead to a decrease in the role of fighters. This means that further development aviation not associated with the Russian Su-57 and the American F-35. Rogoway predicts that in the near future, combat aircraft will look different from the past few decades.

As a result, we are probably entering the decline of an era when the fighter aircraft reigns supreme in aerial combat.

- the author of the article predicts.

The reason for its writing was the statement of the US Air Force Assistant Secretary of State Will Roper. The official said that the military is testing a "6th generation fighter". The author believes that Roper did not mean any one aircraft, but a whole family of different aircraft and sensors.

The well-known American businessman Elon Musk previously called the remotely controlled UAV "the F-35 Lightning II destroyer." In his opinion, the future of combat aviation belongs to a remotely controlled fighter with elements of autonomy.

The F-35 would have had no chance against it.

Musk thinks.
Photos used:
Sukhoi Corporation
94 comments
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  1. Same lech
    Same lech 23 September 2020 09: 54 New
    10
    Well, if Max Elon said it ... then yes smile ... this navel of the earth knows how combat aviation of the future will develop.
    1. Temples
      Temples 23 September 2020 10: 12 New
      +7
      Musk is not a navel, but he fits into the circle of specialists.
      Listen to what the enemy says.
      1. Same lech
        Same lech 23 September 2020 10: 18 New
        +5
        I do not argue ... he has talent, but I do not consider him an enemy ... he does not fight with Russia ... he, like any businessman, wants to be ahead of the rest of the planet in astronautics ... one can envy his assertiveness.
        1. Temples
          Temples 23 September 2020 10: 26 New
          -2
          Quote: The same LYOKHA
          ... I do not consider him an enemy ... he does not fight with Russia ...

          This is how we are not at war with the Americans at the moment.
          But they nonetheless see us as an enemy.

          So that Musk is the enemy.
          Whether you like it or not, this is the decision of the Americans.

          Space is controlled by the military.

          To consider space as civilian is to wear pink glasses.
          1. Same lech
            Same lech 23 September 2020 10: 35 New
            +1
            To consider space as civilian is to wear pink glasses.

            And who will carry tourists to Earth's orbit? ... the military or what? ... who will build space stations ... bases and many other things related to space ... not the military?
            The military has other goals and objectives ... and ordinary people should master the Space ... it doesn't matter who the Americans are or we ... The space is large ... unimaginably large and a separate country, no matter how advanced it is, is not able to settle down in Space alone ... only together ... unfortunately so far this is a utopia for political reasons.
            1. Temples
              Temples 23 September 2020 11: 24 New
              0
              Quote: The same LYOKHA
              And who will carry tourists to Earth's orbit? ... the military or what? ... who will build ...

              Those who are still doing this are fantastic. fellow

              In the near future, this is their domain. wink

              zs Now Roskosmos carries tourists.
              Is Roskosmos a civilian office?
          2. figwam
            figwam 23 September 2020 12: 32 New
            0
            This means that the further development of aviation is not associated with the Russian Su-57 and the American F-35.

            The 5th generation may be intermediate.
            1. VO3A
              VO3A 23 September 2020 13: 10 New
              +5
              How can a revolutionary milestone generation be intermediate? Do you have any idea of ​​the role of the 5th generation aircraft and its significance? Does anyone on the forum even have an idea of ​​a 5th generation aircraft, not to mention the 6th? Or about his concept? Which hypersound, which unmanned version?
              Heard enough clever words, like MASK, and "serve" tourists, or rather "shoe" ...
              One does not understand what he is talking about, and the second does not understand what he is writing! This is the meaning of this whole article, this is a general commentary on this nonsense in this article ...
          3. eklmn
            eklmn 23 September 2020 21: 59 New
            0
            “To consider space as civilian is to wear pink glasses.”
            Quite right! Just yesterday, NASA chief Jim Bridenstine said that
            “... Administrator Jim Bridenstine and Space Operations Chief General John" J "Raymond discussed the new MOU on September 22 at a virtual event hosted by the Mitchell Aerospace Research Institute.
            The memorandum replaces the agreement signed 14 years ago between NASA and US Air Force Space Command, which was abolished after the creation of the Space Force on December 20, 2019. ”
        2. Vol4ara
          Vol4ara 23 September 2020 10: 30 New
          +2
          Quote: The same Lech
          I do not argue ... he has talent, but I do not consider him an enemy ... he does not fight with Russia ... he, like any businessman, wants to be ahead of the rest of the planet in astronautics ... one can envy his assertiveness.

          Not only in astronautics. And its skylink will allow you to control the UAV anywhere in the world without repeaters
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 23 September 2020 14: 45 New
            +5
            "skylink will allow you to control the UAV anywhere in the world without repeaters" ////
            ---
            A very correct observation. This Skylink was underestimated when it came up as an idea.
            But now it is already being tested over a narrow area over America.
            And, as it turns out, it has enormous bandwidth, comparable to optical cables. Videos, games - no delay. Musk himself did not think that his brainchild would achieve such data transmission power. And drones from these satellites can be controlled calmly.
            1. SovAr238A
              SovAr238A 23 September 2020 18: 48 New
              +3
              Quote: voyaka uh
              "skylink will allow you to control the UAV anywhere in the world without repeaters" ////
              ---
              A very correct observation. This Skylink was underestimated when it came up as an idea.
              But now it is already being tested over a narrow area over America.
              And, as it turns out, it has enormous bandwidth, comparable to optical cables. Videos, games - no delay. Musk himself did not think that his brainchild would achieve such data transmission power. And drones from these satellites can be controlled calmly.


              All he thought ...
              This is the media show us as some kind of "adventurer" ...
              He has a team of strategic analysts, God forbid ...

              And all these projects of tens of thousands of satellites are all with the filing, including of the future sight on the military theme ...
            2. Spambox
              Spambox 24 September 2020 08: 20 New
              0
              Reminds of Skynet from one movie about the uprising of the machines ...
        3. g1washntwn
          g1washntwn 23 September 2020 10: 34 New
          10
          In principle, he said nothing seditious or new. An aircraft not limited by the physical capabilities of the pilot will always "twist" the usual one in dogfight, and with AI to help the operator it will replay the digital battlefield on the tactical board. The Americans see the new air combat as a computer air simulator with an activated cheat code against ordinary players. But the winner will be the one with the more perfect algorithms of this cheat code.
          1. Alexey Sommer
            Alexey Sommer 23 September 2020 11: 02 New
            +3
            Quote: g1washntwn
            The aircraft, which is not limited by the physical capabilities of the pilot, will always "twist" the usual one in dogfight

            Yes sir. It can be added that, as in the anti-missile maneuver, the UAV also has an advantage over the piloted aircraft for the same reasons.
          2. newcomer
            newcomer 23 September 2020 11: 12 New
            -4
            So it is so_ physical capabilities without the pilot are higher. But the weak point of drones is and will be their control for a long time. As for an independent AI, here everyone got excited_ his behavior and reaction to anything _ whether it be an object or an action is absolutely not known. A limited AI with a strict algorithm for choosing actions or reactions_ the same drone, with a little more "horizons". Calculating and hacking a couple of trifles for cyber experts.
            In general, all this fuss with the 6th generation is connected with the realization of the western branch of the aviation industry that their vaunted "stealth" is really just a puff. With their nervous reaction, they indirectly acknowledge the future dominance of SU57m and MIG41m in the skies. And in the internet there are doubts about the "flight" of their "gears".
            1. syndicalist
              syndicalist 23 September 2020 11: 24 New
              +2
              Of course!
              All American innovations are just "zilch". Calculated and hacked by our specialists as "a pair of trifles."
              1. newcomer
                newcomer 23 September 2020 11: 30 New
                -2
                From all my comments, you only understood the word zilch?
                In our times, any drone, even a saucer-shaped one, can be lifted into the sky. Is he 6th generation? And what is the 6th generation, does Musk know? Or the author of this "analytical" nonsense?
                1. SovAr238A
                  SovAr238A 23 September 2020 18: 56 New
                  +6
                  Quote: newbie
                  From all my comments, you only understood the word zilch?
                  In our times, any drone, even a saucer-shaped one, can be lifted into the sky. Is he 6th generation? And what is the 6th generation, does Musk know? Or the author of this "analytical" nonsense?


                  It never dawned on you that AI is prediction.
                  Not observing and reacting to the actions of an enemy aircraft pilot, for example.
                  A prediction.
                  The system of swarms, integrated into the URVV BB in 5-7 years, will not give a living pilot a single chance in air combat.
                  For she already knows the capabilities of the aircraft, she knows the capabilities of the pilot, she knows the school of training pilots and the methodology of their training, tactics of application and many other parameters.

                  And two missiles fired at the plane - they will drive it.
                  By exchanging information, they will not just stupidly catch up from behind, going stupidly to the exhaust, but also launch the second missile exactly where the pilot will leave with a 95% probability, making a pro-missile maneuver from the first. And then along the chain further, changing roles.
                  As a result, they will be driven out - the pilot will put himself under the rocket.
                  The principle of a pack of killer whales. If you've ever seen drone footage of them hunting dolphins, fur seals, etc.
                  Everything is coordinated very precisely.
                  This is what the future really is.
                  1. newcomer
                    newcomer 23 September 2020 19: 04 New
                    +1
                    It dawned on me, dear, lower, be weasel. You have not "reached" _ I am not about fighting a drone with a manned vehicle, but about the battle of cyber troops and air defense with roads. Any AI with its variants of "predictions" of actions is only a computer with an algorithm that is calculated and opened, blocked at once. There is AI, independent, according to some sources, but there is no trust in it for a number of reasons. In the present, aircraft pilots are also able to block the "air" of drones. The electronic warfare capabilities of the latest aircraft of the Russian Federation allow this. And over time, drones will not have a chance at all, with the development of electronic warfare.
                    1. d4rkmesa
                      d4rkmesa 24 September 2020 09: 45 New
                      0
                      The possibilities of electronic warfare are not limitless. Traditional, operator-controlled drones won't stand a chance. Chel correctly wrote, EW is useless against a flock of starlings, where a high level of self-organization and gregarious behavior is laid at the level of instincts. All of this can be reproduced using AI. Not now, so over time.
                      1. newcomer
                        newcomer 24 September 2020 09: 52 New
                        0
                        Here. The key "over time". AI is a cyber individual, self-developing intelligence. And what is now called AI is just a board computer. And the possibilities of electronic warfare are as limitless as the flight of imagination is enough for developers, that is, limitless.
            2. hydrox
              hydrox 23 September 2020 20: 14 New
              0
              So.
              It's just that the fighter ceases to engage in the destruction of its own kind, but is engaged in hacking or rattling skylinks: it is the co-pilot who will do this.
              A fighter will simply become a device with a different set of basic functions.
              1. newcomer
                newcomer 24 September 2020 00: 01 New
                0
                Almost hit the mark. A colleague, an adversary, does not even think about giving up piloted hawks. All these crafty outbursts of "analysts" are a vivid example of the use of the SDI program in the second round, which has remained a utopia. And enthusiastic responses even from the VO audience testify that "noodles" work. They told me a case of a dispute between our astronautics and the Yankees. Our team tried to explain to them for a long time that SDI was a bluff, but the Yankees were either in the forehead or in the forehead. Then one of ours said, okay, do your expensive SDI, we will destroy it cheaply and angrily: we will release a bucket of nails into space in SDI orbit. The Yankees shut up.
                But back to our topic. Even if someone goes for it, they will make sure that the losses among the drones will be mind-blowing.
                1. The eye of the crying
                  The eye of the crying 24 September 2020 18: 34 New
                  0
                  Quote: newbie
                  we will destroy it all the same cheaply and angrily: we will release a bucket of nails into space in SDI orbit.


                  The nails would have to be released not even by wagons, but by trains. Because space is large and the satellite is small.
          3. VO3A
            VO3A 23 September 2020 13: 00 New
            +1
            An aircraft not limited by the physical capabilities of the pilot will always "twist" the usual one in dogfight, and with AI to help the operator it will replay on the tactical board on the tactical board of the digital battlefield.

            This article, like your inference, has nothing to do with reality!
            "twist" the usual in dogfight

            Pi_ndos strive to eliminate this type of battle altogether ...
            on the tactical board of a digital battlefield.

            Which board? Or forgot to put quotes? We have not implemented the concept digital battlefield in general ... We do not have not only combat, we do not have target designation in real time, or rather, information about the enemy in real time for such systems !!!
            But, this is a lyrical digression about our successes ... The purpose of such scribbles is to remove our Su-57, create an opinion about its dubious necessity and push us back even more militarily and technologically. And so it turns out not bad !!!
            1. g1washntwn
              g1washntwn 23 September 2020 13: 38 New
              +1
              Quote: VO3A
              Pi_ndos strive to eliminate this type of battle altogether

              This does not contradict the goals of reducing losses of manned aircraft. Attack drones are just another tactical level.

              Quote: VO3A
              We have not implemented the concept of a digital battlefield at all ... We do not have not only combat, we do not have target designation in real time, or rather, information about the enemy in real time for such systems !!!

              Do some research on Zarya before mentioning polymers. Foreign experience and developments are also taken into account.

              Quote: VO3A
              The purpose of these scribbles is to remove our Su-57

              The version of the remotely controlled or controlled AI of the Su-57 is also being considered in the context of the slave drones. Flashed somewhere.
              The strategy of the Americans to constantly maintain technological superiority over a potential adversary has not been canceled, it's just a race with varying success. Nobody thought about China, but figuratively, according to the space timeline, it unpleasantly surprises Americans almost twice in a millisecond. Also, the Nazis at one time were unpleasantly surprised by the realities of the USSR.
              1. VO3A
                VO3A 23 September 2020 13: 43 New
                +1
                Look for something

                For 20 years they have been looking for and have not found, but for now we are in complete ass, in this matter!
                Flashed somewhere.

                A very accurate analysis of the state of affairs in this direction ...
                1. g1washntwn
                  g1washntwn 23 September 2020 14: 00 New
                  0
                  Quote: VO3A
                  analysis of the state of affairs in this direction ...

                  There is very little open information available today. Strategic developments after all. But you can request a flash drive with a code of developments, for example, on the digitalization of Armata, in an inconspicuous car at the UVZ checkpoint right now. Just take the queue in advance, you are not the first "I do not believe - show".
                  1. VO3A
                    VO3A 23 September 2020 14: 55 New
                    +1
                    I'm talking about Combat Information Systems as such! We don't have them! We do not have network-centric systems even at the tactical level! We don't take air defense ... Why do I need separate elements if there is no system! Both Tornado and MSTA have long had such channels, but what's the point? Nothing comes through them!
                    We have been doing ESU TZ "Constellation-M" for twenty years, and where is it? THERE in the ..the back! OUR pseudo-systems work in time close to real ! Not funny, and how close? Day, hours? There is nothing in Syria! UAVs fly and write movies on a USB flash drive and Tu-214R also writes .... We do not even control the situation in real time, and not even to destroy the partisans in real time! 41 years old only in a modern version and with consequences much worse ...
                    1. hydrox
                      hydrox 24 September 2020 09: 20 New
                      0
                      Save the beads, you still won't convince him, but you will give him a chair. We have too many liberoids for whom the "word of the West" is the ultimate truth, which too often turns out to be just a trial balloon designed to influence our choice of promising technologies and basic theoretical foundations that form the "iron foundation" of future weapons and a gigantic (superbly done!) SDI lies - example: we lost at least five years until we figured it out and stopped paying attention to this fake industry, but time was wasted!
          4. orionvitt
            orionvitt 23 September 2020 14: 04 New
            0
            Quote: g1washntwn
            But the winner will be the one with the more perfect algorithms of this cheat code.

            This is of course correct. But the one with the coolest air defense will also win. And as a pilot target, or unmanned, for a rocket, there is no difference. It all depends on the technical equipment of the enemy. Against a strong enemy, send at least tenth generation aircraft, they will still be shot down.
        4. figwam
          figwam 23 September 2020 12: 17 New
          +6
          Quote: The same LYOKHA
          I do not argue ... he has talent

          The pentagon has a talent, which hangs noodles about the great Mask.
          1. hydrox
            hydrox 23 September 2020 20: 24 New
            0
            The Pentagon and the Fu-35 are still advertised as a super-duper - and what of that, it became more dangerous for the Su-57 or more perfect?
      2. halpat
        halpat 23 September 2020 10: 44 New
        +2
        Quote: Temples
        Musk is not a navel, but he fits into the circle of specialists.
        Listen to what the enemy says.

        He's not just fit, in my opinion.
        He is given a lot of developments, patents, technologies from the US government "bins".
        Another (NOT a select few) would have gone bankrupt long ago in the smoke and would not even be heard. His offices were unprofitable for many years, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. And Musk is on a horse, this cannot be, if there is no bottomless barrel behind him in the form of the state and a certain pool of investors, to whom the state gives guarantees, winking meaningfully :)
        Well, about AvtoVAZ.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 23 September 2020 15: 07 New
          +3
          "if there is no bottomless barrel behind the back in the form of the state and some pool of investors to whom the state gives guarantees," ///
          ---
          The fact of the matter is that it amazes - that none of this is NOT. And how they were looking! The Mask has detractors, competitors - thousands. Very rich. Found nothing.
      3. Alex777
        Alex777 23 September 2020 11: 04 New
        +3
        There are many misconceptions about America's secret Next Generation Air Dominance Demonstrator (NGAD) technology, which stands for New Generation of Air Dominance. It may not be at all what we think.

        Nobody canceled the task of drawing the enemy into the arms race along dead-end and costly areas. yes
        And the assumption that the states know more than ours about the air wars of the future is approximately from this series.
        AI will not be able to carry out non-standard maneuvering soon.
        And all new developments using conventional CAD without AI have limitations (errors) that are no longer fully controlled by the developers.
        IMHO, that's why new ships break down (US aircraft carriers are a good example), and a lot of problems in the F-35.
        Until AI is introduced into computer-aided design systems, talk of a quantum leap in the development of new weapons is premature.
        And I haven't heard any news about AI in CAD yet. hi
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 23 September 2020 20: 34 New
          0

          Nobody canceled the task of drawing the enemy into the arms race along dead-end and costly areas. yes

          You can just get involved in the race. If you are an order of magnitude (ten times) richer, just set the bar high, which will ruin your opponent.
          1. Alex777
            Alex777 24 September 2020 07: 35 New
            0
            The 6th generation with AI is a steep bar.
            Kind of like Star Wars. wink
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 25 September 2020 09: 41 New
              0
              There are already examples of successful AI fights on a simulator with an experienced pilot. To plant a dacron "EDI" (AI from the Stealth movie) in the same F-16v and forward (to begin with). And as the 6th generation appears, there will already be a comprehensively developed AI with real combat experience.
              I remember the series "Battlestar Galaktika". In which the downed Cylon fighters "reincarnated" with new hardware, constantly gaining experience.
              1. Alex777
                Alex777 25 September 2020 23: 00 New
                0
                Are you related to real developments in artificial intelligence?
                "Cruiser Galaxy" is a fairy tale ... American ... wink
                1. 3danimal
                  3danimal 25 September 2020 23: 23 New
                  0
                  Look: the dead AI can be "saved" before the flight and even during. I'm talking about that.
                  https://trends.rbc.ru/trends/amp/news/5f47e6519a794718141713c2
                  This news has been discussed for a month already. request
                  1. Alex777
                    Alex777 26 September 2020 02: 03 New
                    0
                    I read this news when it came out.
                    They also put lasers on planes. Long.
                    Not everything is simple in neural networks. It's neat if. yes
                    1. 3danimal
                      3danimal 26 September 2020 06: 52 New
                      -1
                      They also put lasers on planes. Long.

                      On a passenger Boeing smile This is all experience in the piggy bank. There is enough money for research and the capacities of Raytheon and others.
                      Not everything is simple in neural networks

                      So I'm not saying that it will be tomorrow. But progress is obvious. IMHO, within 5 years real training battles can take place. Why not?
    2. Sofa
      Sofa 23 September 2020 10: 41 New
      -3
      At least he does not throw empty words to the wind, unlike Rogozin.
  2. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 23 September 2020 10: 07 New
    +1
    As a result, we are probably entering the decline of an era when the fighter aircraft reigns supreme in aerial combat.

    In air battles, the fighter will always rule - it was created for this.
    Another thing is a war in the air in which air battles are not the most important thing. In a war in the air, a fighter never, either completely or separately, ruled.
    1. Temples
      Temples 23 September 2020 10: 18 New
      +1
      Quote: Kostadinov
      In aerial combat, the fighter will always rule

      And if the enemy "does not come"?
      Over whom will he rule?

      If the enemy solves problems, for example, using hypersonic weapons?

      What will the fighter be doing at this moment?

      The f-35 costs at least $ 100 million. This is 7,5 billion rubles.
      Not enough !!!
      One fighter!

      This is beneficial for the manufacturer.

      But military tasks can be solved differently.

      How much does a hypersonic missile cost that the f-35 is unable to handle?

      The enemy may not arrive at the "arrow" with a fighter.
      I think so.
      1. Zoldat_A
        Zoldat_A 23 September 2020 10: 26 New
        +1
        Quote: Temples
        If the enemy solves problems, for example, using hypersonic weapons?
        What will the fighter be doing at this moment?
        Dominate ... wink Quiet above yourself ...
      2. Vol4ara
        Vol4ara 23 September 2020 10: 32 New
        +1
        Quote: Temples
        Quote: Kostadinov
        In aerial combat, the fighter will always rule

        And if the enemy "does not come"?
        Over whom will he rule?

        If the enemy solves problems, for example, using hypersonic weapons?

        What will the fighter be doing at this moment?

        The f-35 costs at least $ 100 million. This is 7,5 billion rubles.
        Not enough !!!
        One fighter!

        This is beneficial for the manufacturer.

        But military tasks can be solved differently.

        How much does a hypersonic missile cost that the f-35 is unable to handle?

        The enemy may not arrive at the "arrow" with a fighter.
        I think so.

        If the enemy does not arrive, he will lose. No one has ever won a war sitting on the defensive. The rest are excuses in attempts to revive the failure of their industry and financial sector in the mass production of 5th generation fighters. The main problem of f22, f35, aircraft carriers is that we do not have them
        1. Alexey Sommer
          Alexey Sommer 23 September 2020 11: 05 New
          0
          Quote: Vol4ara
          If the enemy does not arrive, he will lose.

          The enemy can arrive in the form of an air defense missile. In principle, such a rocket is the same UAV, only disposable.
          1. Rage66
            Rage66 23 September 2020 12: 32 New
            0
            Khrushchev has already made this mistake.
            1. Alexey Sommer
              Alexey Sommer 23 September 2020 12: 33 New
              +1
              And I'm not saying that only air defense. I meant that if the fighter did not arrive, then the air defense would arrive.
          2. hydrox
            hydrox 23 September 2020 20: 30 New
            +1
            There are no air defense missiles in the middle of the ocean, other devices rule there (Zircons, for example, or Vanguards), so the seas are no longer for aircraft carriers ... Even naval bases are no longer protected by fleets ...
            1. Alexey Sommer
              Alexey Sommer 24 September 2020 09: 14 New
              +1
              Quote: hydrox
              There are no air defense missiles in the middle of the ocean

              How not ?!
              And where did they go?
              SAM "Poliment / Redut", as one of the examples, has not yet been canceled.
      3. 3danimal
        3danimal 23 September 2020 20: 51 New
        0
        The f-35 costs at least $ 100 million. This is 7,5 billion rubles.
        Not enough !!!
        One fighter!

        F-35A: US $ 77.9M (lot 14) (at least 2/3 of the size of the entire program)
        F-35B: US $ 101.3M (lot 14)
        F-35C: US ​​$ 94.4M (lot 14)
        And the price will continue to decline.
        For comparison, the Su-35 was sold to China at a price of ~ $ 100 million per fighter.
        So it is quite competitive in the foreign market. And for itself, the US budget makes it easy to purchase.
      4. The eye of the crying
        The eye of the crying 24 September 2020 18: 37 New
        0
        Quote: Temples
        And if the enemy "does not come"?


        Then the bombers will calmly bomb.
    2. g1washntwn
      g1washntwn 23 September 2020 10: 43 New
      +1
      Fighters and interceptors are designed to capture air superiority. Then the resistance of the main ground forces, including air defense, is suppressed from the air to exclude countermeasures. And only at the final stage a ground operation is carried out. And even then only if it is necessary to completely destroy the resistance and seize the territory. To strategically push the enemy back and freeze its development, in the opinion of the Americans, it will be enough to support the first two stages of the offensive. Today it is expensive, with the arrival of relatively cheap swarm unmanned concepts such a scenario against a relatively weak enemy will come out much more convenient. Mass production of unmanned drones and mass production of pilots (kamikaze) of different levels.
      1. Alexey Sommer
        Alexey Sommer 23 September 2020 11: 15 New
        +2
        Quote: g1washntwn
        Fighters and interceptors are designed to capture air superiority. Then the resistance of the main ground forces, including air defense, is suppressed from the air.

        In the struggle for air supremacy, not only extermination, but also calculations of the air defense system, as well as calculations of operational tactical missiles striking air defense systems, airfields of aircraft basing, to a depth of more than 2000 km behind enemy lines, calculations of complexes Electronic warfare capable of delivering electromagnetic strikes to a depth of 6000 km, for example, and others, others, others These calculations will not sit and wait until all allied fighters are interrupted, but will actively help them with automatic combat control systems coordinated from a single command center.
        hi
        1. g1washntwn
          g1washntwn 23 September 2020 11: 43 New
          +1
          Quote: Alexey Sommer
          In the struggle for air supremacy, not only extermination is actively and at the same time ...

          And if you look even wider, then you forgot to mention the roll angle of the commanders' caps wink
          1. Alexey Sommer
            Alexey Sommer 23 September 2020 11: 45 New
            +1
            Quite right! This is mandatory.
        2. SovAr238A
          SovAr238A 23 September 2020 19: 04 New
          -1
          Quote: Alexey Sommer
          Quote: g1washntwn
          Fighters and interceptors are designed to capture air superiority. Then the resistance of the main ground forces, including air defense, is suppressed from the air.

          In the struggle for air supremacy, not only extermination, but also calculations of the air defense system, as well as calculations of operational tactical missiles striking air defense systems, airfields of aircraft basing, to a depth of more than 2000 km behind enemy lines, calculations of complexes Electronic warfare capable of delivering electromagnetic strikes to a depth of 6000 km, for example, and others, others, others These calculations will not sit and wait until all allied fighters are interrupted, but will actively help them with automatic combat control systems coordinated from a single command center.
          hi

          Remember Iraq and Yugoslavia.

          At that time, they had air defense completely corresponding to the time.

          Against a massive and well-coordinated strike flavored by the actions of saboteurs - the chances of air defense are exactly zero ... And even without a wand.
          1. Alexey Sommer
            Alexey Sommer 24 September 2020 09: 10 New
            +1
            Quote: SovAr238A
            At that time, they had air defense completely corresponding to the time.

            First, it is not. How can you call their grouping completely corresponding to the time when they did not have the S300, from the word at all, in fact, there was no modern separation and automatic control. And in addition, like the icing on the cake, there was a massive betrayal (in Iraq) of the top team.
            Quote: SovAr238A
            Against a massive and well-coordinated strike spiced up by the actions of saboteurs, the air defense has exactly zero chances.

            The controversial statement of a well-organized air defense includes, among other things, anti-sabotage security.
      2. VO3A
        VO3A 23 September 2020 13: 38 New
        0
        With the first two steps, something didn't work out for you, read and think about what you wrote and how? IRAQ? Yugoslavia?
    3. halpat
      halpat 23 September 2020 10: 52 New
      +1
      Quote: Kostadinov
      As a result, we are probably entering the decline of an era when the fighter aircraft reigns supreme in aerial combat.

      In air battles, the fighter will always rule - it was created for this.
      Another thing is a war in the air in which air battles are not the most important thing. In a war in the air, a fighter never, either completely or separately, ruled.

      Read Stanislaw Lem's "Invincible". That's all for that and goes, in my opinion
      1. viktor_ui
        viktor_ui 24 September 2020 04: 48 New
        0
        Read Stanislaw Lem's "Invincible". - a cool example of creativity and futuristic prediction, beloved from school! Screen adaptation is needed ... read in one breath - HARPAH. drinks
  3. mig29mks
    mig29mks 23 September 2020 10: 08 New
    0
    They are great masters of creative thinking! So wait and see.
  4. Grazdanin
    Grazdanin 23 September 2020 10: 08 New
    +5
    How so? A great article has been turned into this. The tenth part was not written, the information was distorted, the conclusions are not correct, they crammed gags. A shameful job, there shouldn't be such news.
  5. sannyhome
    sannyhome 23 September 2020 10: 26 New
    -1
    The sixth generation is a suborbital combat platform with the ability to conduct warfare in the atmosphere. And - yes, the Americans have been testing it for five years. And we have - what is there, we will throw our hats ...
    1. d4rkmesa
      d4rkmesa 23 September 2020 10: 34 New
      0
      Is "and - yes" a universal argument? Well, a mini-shuttle flies to itself in orbit, this does not make it a fighter, let alone a 6th generation.
      1. sannyhome
        sannyhome 23 September 2020 10: 49 New
        -2
        Quote: d4rkmesa
        Is "and - yes" a universal argument? Well, a mini-shuttle flies to itself in orbit, this does not make it a fighter, let alone a 6th generation.

        The schematic diagram has been implemented. Strengthen the hull, attach shunting and weapons and that's it.
        PS Somewhat exaggerated, of course, but the essence, I think, is clear
    2. Vol4ara
      Vol4ara 23 September 2020 10: 37 New
      +3
      Quote: sannyhome
      The sixth generation is a suborbital combat platform with the ability to conduct warfare in the atmosphere. And - yes, the Americans have been testing it for five years. And we have - what is there, we will throw our hats ...

      In short, neither one nor the other? Equally bad in near space and in the atmosphere?
    3. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 23 September 2020 10: 37 New
      +3
      Apparently, the prototype that the Americans recently flew into the air and tested is not suborbital.
      Rather - a supersonic stealth with a large range of action.
      1. Grazdanin
        Grazdanin 23 September 2020 11: 00 New
        +2
        In the USA the term “6th generation” is not used in principle, they say “the next generation”. It looks like they are creating something different, different from the current 4th and 5th generation aircraft, and not their continuation. Tyler suggests that he tested a platform that can be configured depending on the required tasks and technical development.
        Perhaps something like Boeing's Loyal Wingman for Australia; development of the idea of ​​the F35, when during the competition the pre-production X35A was converted into the X35B.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 23 September 2020 13: 44 New
          +4
          You may be right about Loyal Wingman.
          In the shape of the wings and nose, it can be a "brother" of this new prototype ...

          Only the tail unit does not dock, which is cut by meter-range radars. There should be no tail to accompany bombers.
          1. Rage66
            Rage66 23 September 2020 14: 19 New
            -2
            If you remove the tail, it will look like a flying turkey
          2. Oleg Olkha
            Oleg Olkha 23 September 2020 15: 23 New
            +2
            https://www.artstation.com/tom_alfaro/albums/2283555 Tom Alfaro впереди всех по "детализации" концептов. (в тч. изменение формы и прячущийся "хвост" для разных режимов)
    4. halpat
      halpat 23 September 2020 11: 02 New
      -3
      Quote: sannyhome
      The sixth generation is a suborbital combat platform with the ability to conduct warfare in the atmosphere. And - yes, the Americans have been testing it for five years. And we have - what is there, we will throw our hats ...

      Not with hats, but S-500. He has nothing to do with Rogozin, thank God.
    5. Sofa
      Sofa 23 September 2020 11: 05 New
      +1
      The fact of the matter is where are the su 57 fighters? And the development of the sixth generation has not even begun. Rogozin tells us that he will fly to Venus, then he will build a base on the moon by 2030. The person should listen to the mask himself has achieved everything in life his condition 97 billion dollars that he himself earned creating programs, in my opinion he earned the first 500 dollars selling a video game, then went to university and created a company.
  6. bar
    bar 23 September 2020 10: 32 New
    -5
    Famous American businessman Elon Musk ...

    Well, if the genius Elon Musk himself is already involved in the matter, then I take off my hat.
    "I believe because it is absurd" (c)
  7. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 23 September 2020 10: 34 New
    +2
    There are no photos of the new prototype yet.
    There is no size.
    If this is a fighter capable of escorting strategists deep in enemy territory, then it must be large, larger than the F-22. After all, the fuel in the internal tanks takes up a lot of space.
    From the shape of the bow it will become clear to what supersonic it gets.
    1. Grazdanin
      Grazdanin 23 September 2020 11: 12 New
      -1
      Quote: voyaka uh
      If it is a fighter capable of escorting strategists deep in enemy territory

      A "flying wing" slave drone as an option, recently in the United States again intensified on this.
    2. Danila46
      Danila46 24 September 2020 03: 39 New
      0
      if we are here talking about the Mask, then there is no need to talk about fuel. It should be an electric vehicle, at the most, or a hybrid, at least ...
      1. Danila46
        Danila46 24 September 2020 03: 44 New
        0
        an electro-reactive hybrid hybrid is obtained. Oh how !!!
  8. rocket757
    rocket757 23 September 2020 10: 39 New
    0
    the future of combat aviation belongs to a remotely controlled fighter with elements of autonomy.

    The future is not defined, and a person will NEVER learn this!
    But that there will be a fig and more automated equipment, there is no need to guess, there WILL BE MORE.
  9. sannyhome
    sannyhome 23 September 2020 10: 51 New
    -1
    Quote: Vol4ara
    Quote: sannyhome
    The sixth generation is a suborbital combat platform with the ability to conduct warfare in the atmosphere. And - yes, the Americans have been testing it for five years. And we have - what is there, we will throw our hats ...

    In short, neither one nor the other? Equally bad in near space and in the atmosphere?

    The fact is that it does not need to be a super-duper in the atmosphere - an aircraft will not dodge a tele-guidance rocket from orbit.
  10. A. Privalov
    A. Privalov 23 September 2020 10: 56 New
    0
    The F-35 did not have and has no chance against it.

    The most formidable weapon in the fight against the F-35.
    Seeing him, Elon Musk said his wise words.
  11. unhappy
    unhappy 23 September 2020 12: 02 New
    0
    Opening Mask belay
    He obviously does not know who Stanislav Lem is. Moreover, I have not read the novel "Invincible".
  12. Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 23 September 2020 12: 41 New
    +1
    Quantity - development - transition to quality - development - transition to quantity - development - transition to quality.
    And so on ad infinitum. At some point, a peak of quality occurs and it is complex / economically unprofitable to maintain this level of quality, in relation to the possibilities of the level of quantity with a slightly lower quality. Example - B-2, at its $ 2 billion, is the peak of the "quality" approach, followed by a decline in quantity.
    Aircraft of the 5th generation - this is the very "peak" of the quality approach, followed by a transition to quantity, discarding part of the functionality. They will be played with cheaper and more popular toys, with combat power similar in parameters. Probably conceptually - a swarm of unmanned aerial vehicles under the control of automatics and pilots on "stealth".
    1. Grazdanin
      Grazdanin 23 September 2020 13: 02 New
      +2
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      Aircraft of the 5th generation - this is the "peak" of the quality approach

      Rather F22 peak, F35 is much simpler and cheaper.
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      Example - B-2 at its $ 2 billion is the peak of the "quality" approach followed by a decline in quantity.

      B-21 is a logical continuation, cheaper and more widespread.
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      Probably conceptually - a swarm of unmanned aerial vehicles under the control of automatics and pilots on "stealth".

      Slave drones, put on stream, will cost 5-20% of the cost of the F35A. They can be produced in large quantities many times over and lost without a twinge of conscience.
  13. viktor_ui
    viktor_ui 24 September 2020 04: 55 New
    0
    To all of the above, I can add the following that the situation is mirrored in terms of the opposition between chess grandmasters and chess software + computing power of computers in their modern incarnation. "IRON" did it then, it does it in our time. The symbiosis of PILOT + AI + ROY is on the way ... and everyone else will smoke bamboo ... who do not invest in science, population and development of their country.
  14. AML
    AML 24 September 2020 07: 38 New
    0
    Quote: voyaka uh
    "if there is no bottomless barrel behind the back in the form of the state and some pool of investors to whom the state gives guarantees," ///
    ---
    The fact of the matter is that it amazes - that none of this is NOT. And how they were looking! The Mask has detractors, competitors - thousands. Very rich. Found nothing.


    Didn't find anything, or after brainwashing around the area decided to be quiet in a rag? These are two big differences.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 24 September 2020 09: 16 New
      +1
      The conspiracy theorists have a universal answer to any argument: if there is no information about someone, then the mysterious forces (the World Government) so intimidated those who were looking for this information that they hid all the data from the "common people". laughing
      Therefore, it is useless to argue with conspiracy theorists.
      1. The comment was deleted.
  15. AML
    AML 24 September 2020 07: 43 New
    0
    Quote: Knell Wardenheart
    Quantity - development - transition to quality - development - transition to quantity - development - transition to quality.
    And so on ad infinitum. At some point, a peak of quality occurs and it is complex / economically unprofitable to maintain this level of quality, in relation to the possibilities of the level of quantity with a slightly lower quality. Example - B-2, at its $ 2 billion, is the peak of the "quality" approach, followed by a decline in quantity.
    Aircraft of the 5th generation - this is the very "peak" of the quality approach, followed by a transition to quantity, discarding part of the functionality. They will be played with cheaper and more popular toys, with combat power similar in parameters. Probably conceptually - a swarm of unmanned aerial vehicles under the control of automatics and pilots on "stealth".


    Quality makes sense only in peacetime, when you are sure that the unexpected will not arrive. But they will fight in quantity because it is expensive and long. In World War II, tank turrets were made from what was, but now you can cast it from gold - and it shines beautifully and in the sun.
  16. ZEMCH
    ZEMCH 24 September 2020 16: 55 New
    0
    There are many misconceptions about America's secret Next Generation Air Dominance Demonstrator (NGAD) technology, which stands for New Generation of Air Dominance. It may not be at all what we think.

    The job is to think, analyze, get real data, filter "misinformation"! There is such a profession)))