Military Review

Mosquito and hypersonic: ships of project 21631 in the context of rearmament of the Russian Navy

156

In the still waters



Recently it became known about the beginning of factory running tests of the newest small missile ship (MRK) of project 21631 Grayvoron... "Factory sea trials are carried out by the ship's regular crew together with the factory delivery team," said the head of the information support department of the Black Sea fleet captain 2nd rank Alexey Rulev. - The main parameters of the ship, all ship devices, mechanisms and equipment are checked for compliance with technical specifications. This is one of the important stages before the ship is accepted into the Navy. "

According to Rossiyskaya Gazeta, the official publication of the government of the Russian Federation, after the completion of sea trials, the shipbuilders, together with the crew, will revise the ship's systems, devices and mechanisms and continue to prepare it for the next stage of the state test plan.

For the Russian fleet, which is experiencing great difficulties in terms of surface ships, the ship's running tests are a landmark event. Since 2010, nine such RTOs have been built, including Grayvoron. In general, this is not the worst pace of construction (again by Russian standards). It is possible to draw a conditional parallel with the frigates of the project 22350 of the "Admiral Gorshkov" type: the lead ship was laid down back in 2006, and today only two such combat units are in service. The third frigate, "Admiral Golovko", will enter the fleet no earlier than 2022.

Project 21631 has already managed to prove itself in battle: in October 2015, as part of an operation against the Islamic State (prohibited in the Russian Federation), the ships Uglich, Grad Sviyazhsk and Veliky Ustyug together with a patrol ship of project 11661 from the Caspian Sea carried out shelling of the positions of the militants. A total of 26 launches of 3M14 "Caliber" cruise missiles were carried out against eleven targets, which were at a distance of approximately 1500 kilometers. After that, the ships of the project 21631 were also used to destroy ground targets.

Armed and Dangerous?


For a relatively small ship (total displacement is 949 tons), Project 21631 has a very good arsenal of weapons. Its basis is the installation of a 3S14 vertical launch on eight Onyx or Caliber cruise missiles. A 100-mm gun A-190 "Universal" is installed in the bow. In addition, small missile ships have a 30mm Duet artillery mount, two 3M47 launchers with Igla-S or Verba anti-aircraft missiles, two 14,5mm and three 7,62mm machine guns.


The project has a weakness. We are talking about the modest capabilities of air defense: in fact, the ship is defenseless against air attacks. However, you need to understand that ideal ships (especially with a relatively small displacement) do not exist. One example is the American Littoral Combat Ship, which is widely criticized for its modest combat power and poor concept. Recall that LCS exist in two variations: Independence and Freedom. The displacement of the ships exceeds 2000 tons, but neither one nor the other carry missile strike weapons, which in practice makes them practically useless in the event of a major war. And even local high-intensity combat operations.

In the case of the LCS, the Americans tried to implement the notorious "modularity", however, as practice shows, this concept of weapons does not work very well in the Navy. This applies not only to the United States, but also to other countries. The use of modules forces us to keep an “army” of specialists ready to service certain systems. In addition, this concept loses all meaning after the ship goes to sea.


The most interesting thing awaits us in the foreseeable future, when the fleet's arsenal will be replenished (if replenished) with the newest Zircon hypersonic missile, which can be launched from the 3S14 installations available, as we have already written above, on the ships of Project 21631. According to data from open sources, the rocket develops a speed of about 6 M (according to some reports, it reached a speed of 8 M during tests) and has a range of 400-600 kilometers (according to other sources, the Zircon's range exceeds 1000 kilometers). With an estimated warhead weight of 300-400 kilograms, one missile will be enough to disable any surface ship, including the American Nimitz-class aircraft carrier.

The main intrigue concerns the timing of the adoption of "Zircon" into service. According to data voiced by a source in the defense industry in April of this year, the missile may become part of the Navy's arsenal in 2022: tests are scheduled for 2020 and 2021.

There is, however, one "but". If we even saw the "Dagger" (an air-launched missile, which some mass media call "hypersonic"), then we cannot say the same about the "Zircon". The only material confirmation of its existence is the transport and launch containers shown in 2019, installed on board the frigate "Admiral Gorshkov". It is not a fact that we are talking about "Zircon", but the containers are similar to those that should be used for a complex of hypersonic weapons.


(Not) an easy win


In total, the Russian Navy should receive 12 small missile ships 21631. To this should be added 18 new small missile ships of the project 22800 "Karakurt", also equipped with 3S14 launchers and theoretically capable of launching "Zircons". Now in service there are two ships of project 22800.

The ships of the project 21631 and 22800 prompted Western experts to talk about the danger from the "mosquito fleet of Russia." Indeed, if you look at the situation in isolation from the realities of the Russian Navy, then the Zircon + small missile ship bundle looks impressive. The problem is that naval battles have never been won by a mosquito fleet. The latter, in fact, is an addition to large surface ships and in no way can be considered as its alternative.

It's no secret that after World War II, aircraft carriers became the main striking force at sea. And deck alternatives aviation not at the moment. Whatever the Zircon's range, it cannot be compared with the target engagement range that a carrier-based fighter-bomber armed with cruise missiles can provide.

So if Russia wants to retain its status as a maritime power, it will somehow have to invest in the construction of "large" ships: frigates, destroyers and, of course, aircraft carriers.

Mosquito and hypersonic: ships of project 21631 in the context of rearmament of the Russian Navy

It must be said that the first steps (we do not take into account the de facto incapacitated heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov) have already been made. This July, Russia for the first time in its stories laid two universal amphibious assault ships-helicopter carriers, which conditionally can also be considered "aircraft carriers." However, one must understand that they cannot be regarded as a full-fledged response to the rapid growth in the combat potential of the aircraft carrier of the US Navy and the PRC Navy.
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  1. Grandfather
    Grandfather 23 September 2020 05: 37 New
    -2
    if the "hyper" is really placed on the project, then it will no longer be a "boat", but a full-fledged dangerous "drummer". able to make a "nix" without entering the affected area, given his weaknesses.
    1. Kalmar
      Kalmar 23 September 2020 09: 31 New
      12
      Quote: Dead Day
      if the "hyper" is really placed on the project, then it will no longer be a "boat", but a full-fledged dangerous "drummer". able to make a "nix" without entering the affected area, given his weaknesses.

      It remains to convince the enemy to bring their ships closer to the coast (Buyan cannot go far from the coast). Otherwise, he, the enemy, out of his stupidity can send forward submarines, which our "mosquitoes" cannot oppose at all. Then you involuntarily think that in light of the cancellation of the INF Treaty, Buyans do not have any significant advantages over coastal missile systems at all.
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 23 September 2020 09: 50 New
        -7
        Quote: Kalmar
        It remains to convince the enemy to bring their ships closer to the shore

        Why convince them? They themselves climb under the attack of Buyans, take at least the Black Sea!
        1. Kalmar
          Kalmar 23 September 2020 10: 19 New
          10
          Quote: Serg65
          Why convince them? They themselves climb under the attack of Buyans, take at least the Black Sea!

          Only single destroyers enter the World Cup - to trade with their faces. Some large forces will enter there not earlier than the submarines "clean up" the water area of ​​potentially dangerous ships.

          In general, if you look closely at the geography of the Buyans' distribution by fleets (BF, Black Sea Fleet, KF), you will think: who is there to get the Zircons? The appearance of aircraft carriers in the Baltic or Black Seas is extremely unlikely (they have nothing to do there); an aircraft carrier cannot get into the Caspian Sea with all its desire.
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 23 September 2020 10: 27 New
            +2
            Quote: Kalmar
            large forces will enter there not earlier than the submarines "clean up" the water area from potentially dangerous ships.

            And how will the submarine go to the Black Sea?
            Quote: Kalmar
            The appearance of aircraft carriers in the Baltic or Black Seas is extremely unlikely

            From what??? The fight against the enemy AUG near the native shores was practiced even during the times of the Red Banner Black Sea Fleet! And for the blockade of the Kaliningrad region, the AUG may well be used! In addition, Buyans or Karakurt can work perfectly in the island zone of the Mediterranean Sea based on Tartus!
            1. Kalmar
              Kalmar 23 September 2020 10: 51 New
              +5
              Quote: Serg65
              And how will the submarine go to the Black Sea?

              Just like any other ships. And Turkish submarines are there right away.

              Quote: Serg65
              The fight against the enemy AUG near the native shores was practiced even during the times of the Red Banner Black Sea Fleet!

              In those early years, most of the Black Sea coast belonged to the USSR and its allies. Now Romania and Bulgaria are in NATO, Ukraine and Georgia are NATO allies. Turkey has greatly increased its military potential, and the Black Sea Fleet, on the contrary, is a sub-task. In these conditions, there is simply no particular need to drive aircraft carriers in the World Cup.

              Quote: Serg65
              And for the blockade of the Kaliningrad region, the AUG may well be used!

              What for? There, and basic aviation from the coast will cope, since there are plenty of airfields. Unless the Americans will be officially "out of business" and will bring an aircraft carrier to just be nearby and keep an eye on. But then it would be impossible to attack him: formally, he is neutral.

              Quote: Serg65
              In addition, Buyans or Karakurt can work perfectly in the island zone of the Mediterranean Sea based on Tartus!

              If Turkey lets them just go there, i.e. without escort in the form of a couple of their submarines. Without proper accompaniment by large oil companies "Buyany" and "Karakurt" in such an operation will be suicide bombers.
              1. Serg65
                Serg65 23 September 2020 11: 50 New
                -6
                Quote: Kalmar
                Just like any other ships. And Turkish submarines are there right away.

                That's right, SAME! Those. on the surface, and therefore, when passing through the straits, they are the most vulnerable and easily detected. Catch them on the way out of the Bosphorus and snap like seeds! And if Buyans preventively fill up the bridge of martyrs and the bridges of the sultans with calibers, these submarines will remain in the Sea of ​​Marmara.
                Quote: Kalmar
                There, and the basic aviation from the coast will cope, the benefit of airfields is full

                There are not so many airfields and they are all under the gun ... of the same Buyanov laughing
                Quote: Kalmar
                Without proper accompaniment by large oil companies "Buyany" and "Karakurt" in such an operation will be suicide bombers.

                Why would? They shoot straight from the bay, even without going to sea!
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 September 2020 12: 00 New
                  +6
                  Quote: Serg65
                  Catch them on the way out of the Bosphorus and snap like seeds!

                  How are you going to catch them there? :)))) Any of our planes in that area will be easily destroyed, even though Turkey will fight, at least not - for example, with AUG in the Mediterranean. The same applies to surface ships and submarines
                  Quote: Serg65
                  There are not so many airfields and they are all under the gun ... of the same Buyanov

                  There are only 55 civilians.
                  1. Serg65
                    Serg65 23 September 2020 12: 22 New
                    -7
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    How are you going to catch them there?

                    Yes, at least Varshavyanka!
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    There are only 55 civilians.

                    Some of them are no longer operational, of the rest, some will not be able to ensure the operation of military aircraft ... a maximum of 25-30 remains.
                    1. Kalmar
                      Kalmar 23 September 2020 12: 27 New
                      +6
                      Quote: Serg65
                      Yes, at least Varshavyanka!

                      There are three of them in the ranks. How many of them will survive in ambush before the possibility of clicking someone is a big question.

                      Quote: Serg65
                      Some of them are no longer operational, of the rest, some will not be able to ensure the operation of military aircraft ... a maximum of 25-30 remains.

                      The inactive ones can be used, and three Buyans, even the sounded 25 airfields, will not cover them with all the will. Moreover, there is a choice: either they keep airfields at gunpoint, or enemy ships; and this and that will not work right away.
                      1. Serg65
                        Serg65 23 September 2020 12: 35 New
                        -9
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        There are three of them in the ranks

                        And the other three are forever under repair? Or are you ready to start tomorrow?
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        How many of them will survive in ambush before the possibility of clicking someone is a big question.

                        This is how they will sit, depends on the commanders. In the 80s, the Black Sea diesels passed the straits underwater, unnoticed by anyone, and here, if they behave correctly, they will achieve success!
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        Inactive ones can be used,

                        It is possible, but it will trigger retaliatory measures to build up the RF Aerospace Forces in this area!
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        three "Buyan"

                        While you are reanimating the airfields and are going to fight, there will already be 6 Karakurt and 5 Buyanov + 24 Kr from admirals and the Nth number from submarines (how many, I don't know).
                      2. Kalmar
                        Kalmar 23 September 2020 12: 43 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Serg65
                        And the other three are forever under repair? Or are you ready to start tomorrow?

                        It is hard to say. Trends in this respect are not particularly encouraging in our country; boats can hang in repairs for a long time. And then it's time to patch up the next.

                        Quote: Serg65
                        In the 80s, the Black Sea diesels passed the straits in a submerged position unnoticed

                        Then the PLO means were simpler, and the Turks had a very conditional fleet.
                      3. Serg65
                        Serg65 23 September 2020 13: 11 New
                        -8
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        Trends in this respect are not particularly encouraging in our country; boats can hang in repairs for a long time.

                        Well, this grandmother said for two.
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        Then the PLO means were simpler, and the Turks had a very conditional fleet.

                        Then the ships of all NATO countries in the Aegean Sea guarded the straits, even in the Dardanelles you write pirouettes, and some Dutchman, languishing with impatience, is waiting for you near Samothrace or Lemnos.
                    2. umah
                      umah 28 October 2020 21: 24 New
                      0
                      An error crept into the author's calculations: "Buyan-M" cannot use Onyxes, and therefore Zircons. The fact that the rocket is in size does not mean that the ship will be able to launch it. Most likely the case is in the BIUS, which is not associated with this weapon. Perhaps there will be a modernization of the Buyan-M, which will allow these missiles to be used. But at the moment from the anti-ship missile "Buyan-M" can use only 3M-54.

                      As for the "Karakurt", I am also not sure that he can let Onyx go.
                    3. The comment was deleted.
              2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 September 2020 12: 37 New
                +8
                Quote: Serg65
                Yes, at least Varshavyanka!

                If you can deploy them there in advance, then with great luck they will be able to patrol there for several days. Although at the existing level of PLO of the same USA, I would not particularly count on this. But then what? The very first need to turn on the diesel engine for recharging - and you can put "Our proud" Varyag "does not surrender to the enemy".
                In the modern world, diesel-electric submarines cannot conduct long-term operations off foreign shores, in the zone of control of the enemy's Navy and Air Force.
                Quote: Serg65
                Some of them are no longer active

                All operating and EMNIP should be added to them purely military airfields. 55 - these are current civil international and civil domestic, if my sclerosis does not lie to me.
                Quote: Serg65
                a maximum of 25-30 remains.

                And what do you want to do with them with the available Buyans? :)))) To knock out one airfield - dozens of CDs are needed
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 23 September 2020 12: 57 New
                  -5
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Although at the current level of PLO of the same USA

                  Andrey, well, you are an intelligent person and you must understand that the United States will not get into a fight in a non-nuclear conflict, but will wait for the development of events! European NATO countries will forget the same without US support, as exemplified by the refusal to answer Erdogan's cry for help! Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania ??? Moreover, not only the Black Sea Fleet will rush into battle!
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  55 - these are current civil international and civil domestic, if my sclerosis does not lie to me.

                  Where are these 55 airfields?
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  And what do you want to do with the existing Buyans?

                  Buyany is one of the components of the RF Armed Forces.
                2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 September 2020 14: 31 New
                  +6
                  Quote: Serg65
                  Andrey, well, you are an intelligent person and you must understand that the United States will not get into a fight in a non-nuclear conflict, but will wait for the development of events!

                  Yeah. For example - on board the R-8 Poseidon. by sheer chance, the coordinates of "unknown submarines" that flew over the water area and then merged
                  This has already happened - it was on a tip from the United States that Admiral Belgrano was sunk. And in Georgia they helped.
                  Quote: Serg65
                  European NATO countries will forget the same without US support, as exemplified by the refusal to answer Erdogan's cry for help!

                  Everything will depend on the reasons for the hypothetical conflict.
                  Quote: Serg65
                  Where are these 55 airfields?

                  https://istanbul-city.ru/2017/03/aeroportyi-turtsii-polnyiy-spisok.html
                  Quote: Serg65
                  Buyany is one of the components of the RF Armed Forces.

                  Agas. And their role in such a conflict ... to put it mildly, not great
                3. Serg65
                  Serg65 23 September 2020 14: 57 New
                  -4
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  And their role in such a conflict ... to put it mildly, not great

                  And we do not know for certain! Torpedo boats were intended for one, but distinguished themselves in a completely different incarnation, the combat path of the 1st and 2nd brigades of torpedo boats of the Black Sea Fleet is a vivid example of this!
                4. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 September 2020 15: 59 New
                  +4
                  Quote: Serg65
                  And we do not know for certain!

                  Unknown. But - predictably with a high level of confidence :))))
          2. DrEng527
            DrEng527 23 September 2020 16: 47 New
            0
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            dozens of CDs are needed

            without APP ... request and a war with NATO without nuclear warheads is not possible ...
    2. Kalmar
      Kalmar 23 September 2020 12: 30 New
      +5
      Quote: Serg65
      Why would? They shoot straight from the bay, even without going to sea!

      First, it will have to drive missiles through the air defenses of several countries - how much will it fly? Secondly, the question remains open: why, then, do not fire rockets from the shore?
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 23 September 2020 12: 37 New
        -2
        Quote: Kalmar
        it will have to drive missiles through the air defense of several countries - how much will it fly?

        Which countries are there?
        Quote: Kalmar
        Why then simply do not fire rockets from the shore?

        In this context ... the war in the Black Sea theater of operations, it is possible from the coast, I do not mind.
      2. Boris Chernikov
        Boris Chernikov 23 September 2020 13: 54 New
        -3
        Given the altitude of the missiles, what kind of air defense are you talking about?
        1. Kalmar
          Kalmar 23 September 2020 14: 36 New
          +3
          Quote: Boris Chernikov
          Given the altitude of the missiles, what kind of air defense are you talking about?

          U-2 was once considered unreachable in height. Until they explained more than once that not everything is so simple.
          1. Boris Chernikov
            Boris Chernikov 23 September 2020 16: 56 New
            -4
            that's when a reliable and massive missile defense system is developed, then there will be a conversation, otherwise you have what you need to go out with a white flag ... because we have missiles, what if the enemy invents anti-missiles ... horror
          2. Kalmar
            Kalmar 23 September 2020 17: 42 New
            +4
            Quote: Boris Chernikov
            for we have missiles

            This is also a difficult moment: in general, there are no missiles yet. There is a lot of talk, it seems that something is even being tested somewhere, but there is still no talk of mass deliveries of hypersonic missiles to our fleet. According to the experience of the Su-57 or T-14, the process can be very delayed. And there the corresponding missile defense systems will arrive in time.
          3. Boris Chernikov
            Boris Chernikov 23 September 2020 17: 52 New
            -3
            laughing I heard the same thing at one time about Iskander and S-400, As well as about the Su-35 ... And yes ... there are missiles ... the Iskander and Dagger are not tested at all, but there are ...
  • timokhin-aa
    timokhin-aa 23 September 2020 11: 15 New
    +4
    And how will the submarine go to the Black Sea?


    Turkey does not count? They have them, if anything, and there is a potential for conflict with us
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 23 September 2020 12: 09 New
      -8
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      Turkey does not count?

      Quote: timokhin-aa
      That's right, SAME! Those. on the surface, and therefore, when passing through the straits, they are the most vulnerable and easily detected. Catch them on the way out of the Bosphorus and snap like seeds! And if Buyans preventively fill up the bridge of martyrs and the bridges of the sultans with calibers, these submarines will remain in the Sea of ​​Marmara.

      Quote: timokhin-aa
      They have them, if anything, and there is a potential for conflict with us

      Is there a potential for a full-fledged conflict? And 112 Caliber in one salvo at Geldjuk, or can they repel it at Ankara? And the 48 Iskanderov of the 1st Guards brigade and the 12th brigade of the Southern Military District? This I have not yet lifted the VKS into the air! laughing
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 September 2020 12: 47 New
        +5
        Quote: Serg65
        And 112 Caliber in one salvo at Geldjuk, or can they repel Ankara?

        Hardly. But what are you going to achieve with this salvo? Destroy a couple of airfields?
        Quote: Serg65
        And the 48 Iskanderov of the 1st Guards brigade and the 12th brigade of the Southern Military District? This I have not yet lifted the VKS into the air!

        The Turkish Air Force is not a whipping boy either - 233 F-16 modifications block 50 and above - this is serious. And they also have other planes. Also in service with Turkey is OTR ATACMS, which, although not Iskander, are also very unpleasant. Interestingly, the number of peacetime ground forces between us and the Turks is almost identical - they have 260 thousand people and ours 280 thousand. Therefore, the numerical advantage in the event of a conflict will not be on our side.
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 23 September 2020 13: 03 New
          -4
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          233 F-16 modifications block 50 and above - this is serious.

          Here Lenta.ru claims about 800 fighters, 200 attack aircraft, and that's not counting 200 attack aircraft, 70 strategists and 40 Tu-22M3 ... from the Russian Aerospace Forces.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          the number of peacetime ground forces in our country with the Turks is almost identical - they have 260 thousand people and we have 280 thousand.

          You do not take into account that after Erdogan's purge, the combat potential of the Turkish army has fallen dramatically.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 September 2020 14: 25 New
            +7
            Quote: Serg65
            Here Lenta.ru claims about 800 fighters, 200 attack aircraft, and that's not counting 200 attack aircraft, 70 strategists and 40 Tu-22M3 ... from the Russian Aerospace Forces.

            Tape ru can say anything, but the reality is a little more modest. Too lazy to recount again, but when I made estimates in 2017 for 2020, it turned out new and modernized aircraft
            Fighters - 458 pcs.
            Interceptors - 113 pcs
            Tactical bomber - 262 pcs.
            Long-range missile carriers - 30 pcs.
            Moreover, these are rather overestimated rather than underestimated figures. In addition, we will have deployment restrictions - our airfield network is ... to put it mildly, not in the best condition.
            Quote: Serg65
            You do not take into account that after Erdogan's purge, the combat potential of the Turkish army has fallen dramatically.

            This is a very controversial issue. Many believed that after the repressions of 37, the potential of the army had dropped dramatically
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 23 September 2020 14: 30 New
              -3
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Many believed that after the repressions of 37, the potential of the army had dropped dramatically

              what Didn't he fall? At least the submariners did not know how to fire torpedoes while submerged. And Smushkevich and Stern were shot for what?
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Fighters - 458 pcs.

              smile But not 233 anymore!
            2. Kalmar
              Kalmar 23 September 2020 15: 53 New
              +4
              Quote: Serg65
              But not 233 anymore!

              Do we take into account that the Turkish Air Force is concentrated near the Black Sea, and our VKS are spread over the whole immense? And it will not work to drive them all (or most of them at least) to the World Cup? It seems that such layouts have already taken place in Russian-Japanese.
            3. Boris Chernikov
              Boris Chernikov 23 September 2020 16: 53 New
              0
              at our exercises every year a bunch of troops are driven here and there - the flight of aviation is already a matter of logistics .. The problem is that the Americans will immediately "show concern for the safety of Siberian penguins" and drive AUGs to our border, which will not allow us to transfer significant forces to the Crimea ... but what is the important point here? Russia has long-range missiles, but Turkey does not ...
            4. Kalmar
              Kalmar 23 September 2020 17: 39 New
              +2
              Quote: Boris Chernikov
              in our exercises every year a bunch of troops are driven here and there - the aviation ferry is already a matter of logistics

              Either doctrine, or war. The Syrian Express was also just a logistics issue, but it proved to be very difficult to solve. Well, the aforementioned Russian-Japanese - the same story. And if Turkey and Japan start playing naughty together?

              Quote: Boris Chernikov
              Russia has long-range missiles, but Turkey does not ...

              If we talk about the RCC, then this is not so important: the Black Sea is small.
            5. Boris Chernikov
              Boris Chernikov 23 September 2020 17: 51 New
              -1
              and how are you not tired of remembering her? Do you at least remember that there was that?)))
          2. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 23 September 2020 19: 41 New
            +3
            Roketsan SOM + F-16

            Quite a good range. Our entire Black Sea basin will reach the whole of Syria, without entering the air defense zone.
          3. Boris Chernikov
            Boris Chernikov 24 September 2020 13: 25 New
            0
            is that 200 km range? .. well, yeah .. cried all the crew of the S-400 .. so I want to write) ie. the possibility of launching missiles without even entering the zone of even a theoretical retaliatory strike is a trifle, but flying in the zone of enemy air defense .. yes, this is hardcore .. I understand that our "experts" frankly put any Russian weapon down the toilet and dream of surrendering NATO members with their "beautiful missiles" .. but at least don't go too far)
          4. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 24 September 2020 13: 50 New
            0
            So you have a combat radius of f-16 to 250 (not 200) km plus.
          5. Boris Chernikov
            Boris Chernikov 24 September 2020 17: 55 New
            +1
            laughing How should this, in principle, affect the fact that there are missiles in Russia that shoot through Turkey? Oh, yes .. where there is .. because 250 (well, let it be) km is a huge, not like your 555 and 101st. ... laughing
          6. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 25 September 2020 20: 09 New
            +2
            Do you have any problems with logic? We also have ICBMs with an 11000+ km range, how does this nullify the threat from smaller and simpler missiles for our territory? The answer is no way.

            You have some kind of childish logic. "And our missiles fly farther than yours, be-be-be."
            Well they are flying, yes. So what?
          7. Boris Chernikov
            Boris Chernikov 25 September 2020 20: 19 New
            0
            you have a logical problem .. or rather, living in the paradigm of the 90s "there is nothing in the Army!" .. But it turns out that there is, but in an effort to keep the brand you start to carry the game .. it turns out that Russia has nothing to respond to missiles with a range of 250 km ... not to mention Calibers, Iskander, 555,101 and damn, banal S-400 anti-aircraft missiles, which turn out to be quite enough to shoot from some areas to the coast of Turkey ... You either admit the facts, or get out of your shell and look at things a little a little wider ...
          8. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 25 September 2020 20: 31 New
            +1
            You are changing your shoes in a jump. I just commented on your bravado about the fact that the Turks do not have long-range missiles. No, but they can reach any target in our Black Sea region to a depth of 150-200 km from the coast - there is something. And there are a lot of goals.

            You have some kind of childish logic, they say Calibers fly 8 times farther than COMs, so we will surely win.

            No. Not guaranteed. This is just a few hundred kg of explosives that we can drive to any point of a potential enemy and nothing more.

            The army and especially the navy is a system. And its strongest vulnerability is mismatch. Remember the rhyme "because there was no nail in the smithy?" This is it.
            About our Navy. Nobody argues that the Caliber will fly where it is necessary. The question is that in case of a sudden start of hostilities, their carriers will be massively destroyed. And here our problems begin - they forgot the nails.

            You remind me of a man who carries an expensive Glock under his jacket, but neglects to assess the situation, as a result of which, at the moment of opening the intercom at his own entrance, he gets a cheap Chinese kitchen knife in the kidney - but professionally, up to the handle and with a twist after a blow.

            This analogy is the description of the RF Armed Forces. We have a conditional Glock. But it’s not all about it. And we do not understand this, because the heads of decision-makers are arranged like yours, and instead of a real assessment of the situation, they measure themselves with what they compare and compare with whom it flies longer and farther.
            Then there will be minced meat instead of a kidney, painful shock and death. And the expensive and sophisticated gun will remain under the jacket.
          9. Boris Chernikov
            Boris Chernikov 25 September 2020 20: 43 New
            +1
            Am I changing my shoes? The caliber is only a few hundred kilograms of explosives that we can drive, but what are the SOMs, the wunderwaffle? No, this is the same missile, for which you need to enter the air defense zone and endanger the pilot's life, while Russia has really long-range missiles that allow you to strike at enemy targets. But you, as usual, "There is nothing in Russia, but if the enemy has something, then you need to display it in an ultimatum" .. I'll tell you a secret, different countries have modern types of weapons, ay, wake up. By the way .. it's funny that you remember about the "system" one-sided .. Like "Kalibronostsy will destroy us" .. okay .. the Buyans drowned us in the Black Sea .. maybe even in the Caspian they got a couple of them .. What next? Russia regularly buys long-range missiles and in response to "suddenly attacked" will start to systematically grind Turkish military and civilian objects into dust .. It's real, it feels like I'm not talking with a "retired military", but with a little boy who believes in "but let's take and we will win all at once, "and if we cannot win without losses, then everything is bad .. I will reveal a secret, any war is blood and corpses, and there will be losses in any war. The difference is that before starting a war, smart generals calculate the size of their losses and then decide whether it makes sense to start a war. That is why the Turks swallowed Russia's entry into the Syrian conflict, for example .. and yes, following your delirium about the "knife in the kidney" you should go and kill yourself .. or the meaning of living .. suddenly "a knife in the kidney" .. but instead of you constantly whining about "everything is bad, everything is bad" .. and as I understand it, you have been whining for 30 years .. not tired?
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 23 September 2020 16: 08 New
    +7
    Quote: Serg65
    Didn't he fall?

    Let's just say, under Tukhachevsky, he just flew rapidly to nowhere, punching one bottom after another, but after the 37th ... let's say the question is VERY ambiguous. Those repressions had both a positive and a negative aspect, but if Tukhachevsky had remained in his place, in 1941 we would not have had an army.
    Quote: Serg65
    But not 233 anymore!

    I can only repeat that we have more aircraft, but it is far from the fact that the available number of our airfields will allow us to realize this advantage
  • Lexus
    Lexus 23 September 2020 22: 19 New
    +1
    Andrei hi
    You underestimate the "power" and energy of "spiritual bonds". Local "urya-skakuas" have more than once destroyed the GPS satellite constellation with their tongues, shorted out and burned NATO electronics with saliva, flooded American missile silos with bile, and bombed the hordes of Basurman with slippers. You decided to surprise them with the Black Sea? Huh! If the "ukroshumers" dug it up, the "tartarostans" will easily drain it. If everyone uses a personal "vessel", then what they don't get out will be drained with diapers. So much so that no Moses dreamed of. And then on combat gurneys, with slipping and peregazovkami, rush into the attack, inflicting irreparable damage to the adversary by "rooting" it with a priotically liquid stool and suppositories, hiding from otvetki amulets in the form of toilet chairs. lol
  • Serg65
    Serg65 24 September 2020 07: 28 New
    -2
    Quote: lexus
    You underestimate the "power" and energy of "spiritual bonds"

    As I understand it, Lesha, have you ironed and prepared the white flag and armband? Have you rehearsed the chant "America will help us"? By the way ... how is Furgal doing?
  • Lexus
    Lexus 24 September 2020 15: 54 New
    +3
    Uh ... no. Attractants in the form of white "rags-sleeves", other "attributes" and greeting shouts to the invaders are the "values" of your "heroes". Therefore, the same shameful "ending" awaits you. Only the PEOPLE took into account the resourcefulness of the fascists, therefore, this time it will not work to avoid a fair punishment. Oh, here's the photo! In the sovereign from the truth "cheburnet" could not "wipe" everything behind your predecessors. See how you look like them in everything, even visually. The slogans are the same! Their last "memorable" photos, which for the edification of followers, for ethical reasons, I will not post. And why? Don't worry - and you will be "photographed" for the last time! With a "flash". Apparently, "you" do not have much time left.

  • The comment was deleted.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 24 September 2020 07: 31 New
    +2
    Alexey, good day! Yes, we have enough hurray-patriots, but in general Sergey is a quite adequate interlocutor
  • Lexus
    Lexus 24 September 2020 15: 01 New
    +3
    I believe that in "this" case it is more objective to entrust the assessment of sanity to specialized specialists. And, if it is established, then he, along with others, zi ... "enthusiastically saluting" the ongoing devastation and the gravediggers of our Motherland, he is an accomplice of the perpetrators and, thus, an accomplice in many crimes, including against statehood and humanity (genocide). This means that he must be brought to justice, and, given the special gravity of the crime committed by the organized criminal group, he cannot count on a lenient sentence, and, moreover, on release from responsibility. I have no doubt that this is just a matter of time.
  • Serg65
    Serg65 25 September 2020 07: 49 New
    -7
    Quote: lexus
    entrust the assessment of sanity to specialized specialists

    For example, are you like this? After all, you are a pilot, a sailor, an economist, and all rolled into one laughing
    Quote: lexus
    "enthusiastically saluting" the ongoing devastation and gravediggers of our Motherland

    Gravedigger? These are the snotty "patriots" like you, in the 80s with two hands, two legs and two ears for the changes and destroyed MY HOMELAND! I chased punks near St. Petersburg Saigon when your mother was spoon-feeding you with semolina, a fighter for "freedom" !!
    Quote: lexus
    an accomplice of the perpetrators and, thus, an accomplice of many crimes, including against statehood and humanity (genocide).

    what Are you saving on vodka?
    Quote: lexus
    I have no doubt that this is just a matter of time.

    Yes, Lesha ... the same fate awaits you as your namesake, but the Germans are unlikely to send a plane for you!
  • Serg65
    Serg65 25 September 2020 07: 36 New
    -4
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Sergey is quite an adequate interlocutor

    But what's the difference, let me be a hurray-patriot if it makes it easier for the walkers laughing
  • Serg65
    Serg65 24 September 2020 07: 25 New
    -3
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    after the 37th ... let's just say the question is VERY ambiguous. Those repressions had both positive and negative aspects.

    The battles in the summer of 1939 near a small Mongolian border river and the battles in the winter of 39 in the Finnish forests refute your opinion about the improvement in the state of the Red Army after 1937!
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    in 1941 we wouldn't have had an army.

    And in the 41st army, as such, we did not have.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    it is not a fact that the available number of our airfields will allow this advantage to be realized

    Again, I repeat .... we cannot know this, especially in the light of VKS training for takeoff and landing from freeways!
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 24 September 2020 07: 35 New
    +1
    Quote: Serg65
    The battles in the summer of 1939 near a small Mongolian border river and the battles in the winter of 39 in the Finnish forests refute your opinion about the improvement in the state of the Red Army after 1937!

    You just don't know the state of the army BEFORE 1937 :)))))
    Quote: Serg65
    And in the 41st army, as such, we did not have.

    There was, thanks to Tymoshenko. Better than French and Polish, although worse than German. And for this opinion of Halder see his diary.
    Quote: Serg65
    Again, I repeat ... we cannot know this,

    We can. With the maintenance of the airfield network we have ... not very well
    Quote: Serg65
    all the more so in the light of VKS training for takeoff and landing from freeways!

    A highway is never an airfield, you can sit on it, you can take off - in emergency situations. To fight - no
  • Serg65
    Serg65 24 September 2020 08: 25 New
    -3
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    You just don't know the state of the army BEFORE 1937 :)))))

    Why did you decide that? The battles with the White Chinese on the Chinese Eastern Railway and the battles in East Turkestan were much more effective than the battles on Khasan and Khalkhin Gol.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    To fight - no

    Why?
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 24 September 2020 11: 58 New
    +2
    Quote: Serg65
    Why did you decide that? The battles with the White Chinese on the Chinese Eastern Railway and the battles in East Turkestan were much more effective than the battles on Khasan and Khalkhin Gol.

    Not. Strictly speaking, at the same CER we were the winner for the simple reasons that:
    1) The hostilities were extremely limited - the defeat of the Chinese flotilla, 2 landing forces and one capture of the city
    2) The Chinese turned out to be extremely bad and simply incapable of organized resistance
    But the same Khalkhin-Gol, we have already fought with a solid, strong and well-organized enemy. We won the victory because the Japanese operational-tactical was stuck at the level of the First World War. In general, Khalkhin -Gol is much cooler :))))
    But the most important thing is that you did not pay attention to an important point. I wrote
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    under Tukhachevsky, he just flew rapidly to nowhere, punching one bottom after another

    And by 1929 (CER) Tukhachevsky managed to visit only the chief of staff of the Red Army in 1925 - May 1928, from where he was kicked out to the commander of the LMO.
    Quote: Serg65
    Why?

    Nevertheless, the airfield needs storage facilities for fuel, ammunition, caponiers, or at least parking spaces for aircraft, equipment for refueling and maintenance, people for the same, control (communications and so on) air defense at least some ... None of this on the track , I guarantee it :)))))))
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 23 September 2020 16: 50 New
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Therefore, the numerical advantage in the event of a conflict will not be on our side.

    you can remember the last war with them and the winter of 1915 ... hi
    if the Turks decide to go to war with the Russian Federation, then NATO's intervention is conditional, but why would they?
  • Keyser soze
    Keyser soze 26 September 2020 14: 19 New
    0
    112 calibers in one salvo at Geldjuk, or can they repel Ankara?


    Easy. Someone sold them S400 and cruise missiles for them ... laughing
  • timokhin-aa
    timokhin-aa 23 September 2020 11: 16 New
    +6
    And how will BUYAN strike the anti-ship missile system? His control center is only external. And if it doesn't exist? Buyok does not know how to fight at sea. Only with a cannon against slow-moving, weakly armed ships.
    1. Kalmar
      Kalmar 23 September 2020 11: 42 New
      +4
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      And how will BUYAN strike the anti-ship missile system? His control center is only external.

      Well, so it is external for everyone. Even "Nakhimov", the future storm of the seas, is dependent on an external control center in this regard.
    2. Serg65
      Serg65 23 September 2020 12: 11 New
      +1
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      His control center is only external. And if it doesn't exist?

      If the control center is no longer there, then the conflict spilled over into the last phase and there is no time for the Bueoks, then other guys are already on the stage!
      1. Kalmar
        Kalmar 23 September 2020 12: 36 New
        +3
        Quote: Serg65
        If there is no control center, then the conflict spills over into the last phase

        Why? The control center may not be for completely organizational reasons: the satellite hangs in the wrong place, the ZGRLS does not reach, there are no AWACS planes nearby.
    3. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 23 September 2020 13: 56 New
      0
      those. with such a range, you did not think that ALL ships will require control center?
      1. timokhin-aa
        timokhin-aa 23 September 2020 19: 44 New
        +1
        For what? At 100 km? At 150? Not all.
        A buoy without an external control unit can shoot aiming strictly inside the radio horizon.
        1. Boris Chernikov
          Boris Chernikov 24 September 2020 13: 22 New
          +1
          1 km? haven't thought about it?
          1. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 24 September 2020 13: 45 New
            0
            Such RCC does not exist in nature. World record holder - Volcano with 1000 km along the altitude profile.
            1. Boris Chernikov
              Boris Chernikov 24 September 2020 13: 48 New
              0
              lol 1) There are calibers that work on "a little" further .. as well as Zircons ... Yes, and I will reveal a secret .. Volcanoes also require an external control center for the location of the target before launching .. oh yes .. they were not shown to you .. that means they "no" ...
              1. timokhin-aa
                timokhin-aa 24 September 2020 14: 50 New
                +1
                ) There are calibers that work "a little" further


                Anti-ship 3M54? No fairy tales, please.

                Yes, and I will reveal a secret ... Volcanoes also require an external control center for the location of the target before launch


                I'm aware, thanks.
                1. Boris Chernikov
                  Boris Chernikov 24 September 2020 17: 51 New
                  0
                  well then tell the Syrian militants about these fairy tales ... they will appreciate them ... the anti-ship missile version flies a shorter distance, of course, but there is a good 350 km + there ... I repeat ... the fact that they weren't shown to you doesn't mean not)..
                  I am aware, thanks
                  even doubtful)
                2. timokhin-aa
                  timokhin-aa 25 September 2020 19: 48 New
                  0
                  .PKR version flies of course at a shorter distance, but a good 350 km + there is


                  Actually more.
                  But not what you invented.

                  I repeat .. the fact that they were not shown to you does not mean that they are not) ..


                  The most important thing is not to suck information out of your finger.

                  even doubtful)


                  And go out and talk? It's not for you to be so mocking.
                  You cannot even formulate the concept of "target designation". Find someone else to be smart about.
                3. Boris Chernikov
                  Boris Chernikov 25 September 2020 20: 21 New
                  +1
                  tongue and I have enough of you and Mina and some more "experts" .. The main thing is not to stop writing the game, so that later you can be caught in words .. and then even I remember how you repeated each other about "no more corvettes will be built." ...
                4. timokhin-aa
                  timokhin-aa 25 September 2020 22: 08 New
                  +1
                  I personally repeated this after the Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. And precisely because the Navy held this position until 2019. And the corvettes really did not lay.

                  And with your logic, you can jump to anything. Just a couple of months ago, for example, Commander-in-Chief Evmenov realized that he would be asked for losses in underwater battles due to the inoperability of USET-80 torpedoes in the ice layers of water in the Arctic. And some people have already arrived "on the hat". There is a possibility that sometime from next year, something will be undertaken in this direction.

                  And people like you will have the opportunity to start showing Klimov that like "you wrote for seven years in a row that we have problems with torpedoes, but in fact everything is being corrected, so you were lying, we knew, we knew."

                  You are doing the same with corvettes now. The decision to nail 20380 and 20385 was made in 2013. We reanimated this project in 2019, there were no bookmarks since 2016, and so far not, and already on the way of 2021, I laid out documents with the signatures of Vice Admiral Bursuk and Rear Admiral Tryapichnikov on corvettes, from them it is clearly visible that these ships are to be built further the fleet did not plan.

                  And you continue to grimace as much as you like.
                5. Boris Chernikov
                  Boris Chernikov 28 September 2020 18: 11 New
                  0
                  laughing Well, yes ... because Topvar is such a powerful expert resource that admirals sleep and see to read what retired sailors write there, with whom they quarreled in the dust ... because they know everything and everything, not like those who they are engaged in this directly .. and yes, if your commander-in-chief "suddenly realized" that they would ask him ... then you can refer to where he said exactly that .. or if suddenly some things happen, it is only thanks to you? did not think that the Earth does not spin by your will, but by itself?)
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 23 September 2020 16: 51 New
    +1
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Buyok does not know how to fight at sea.

    so it is not for this, but if the Kyrgyz Republic strikes a blow on the Turkish energy system - for example, on the switchgear and generation? What will become of the economy? request
    1. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 24 September 2020 13: 49 New
      +1
      The funny thing is that such a strategy has already been developed for 10 years - in case of war, demolish the aggressor's entire infrastructure and industry
      1. DrEng527
        DrEng527 25 September 2020 14: 04 New
        0
        Quote: Boris Chernikov
        the funny thing is that such a strategy

        but am I saying that this is a new approach? this is commonplace ... request
        1. Boris Chernikov
          Boris Chernikov 25 September 2020 14: 07 New
          +1
          yes as I remember it, a few years ago, they voiced it so that in Europe they would hear it ... by the way, they didn't want to butt with us even more ...
          1. DrEng527
            DrEng527 25 September 2020 14: 14 New
            0
            Quote: Boris Chernikov
            they didn't want to butt with us anymore ...

            see reality - the next sanctions, so not really ... request
            1. Boris Chernikov
              Boris Chernikov 25 September 2020 14: 15 New
              +1
              so the sanctions are an attempt to bite ... and earlier we were directly threatened with a club ...
      2. timokhin-aa
        timokhin-aa 25 September 2020 19: 50 New
        +1
        And how many cruise missiles are needed to "demolish the aggressor's entire infrastructure and industry"? Come back to earth, please.
  • timokhin-aa
    timokhin-aa 23 September 2020 11: 17 New
    0
    Here you involuntarily think that in light of the cancellation of the INF Treaty, Buyans do not have any significant advantages over coastal missile systems at all.


    https://topwar.ru/170207-morskaja-mosch-i-krylatye-rakety-kak-flotu-ispolzovat-kalibry.html
  • musorg
    musorg 23 September 2020 12: 46 New
    0
    And that our submarines cannot be displayed? Or paired with IPC, etc.!
    1. Kalmar
      Kalmar 23 September 2020 15: 55 New
      +4
      Quote: musorg
      And that our submarines cannot be displayed? Or paired with IPC, etc.!

      Can. Only those and others are very few. The IPC is also very, very old, their capabilities against modern diesel-electric submarines are very ambiguous.
  • Volder
    Volder 23 September 2020 19: 03 New
    -1
    Quote: Kalmar
    "Buyan" cannot walk far from the coast
    Went to the Mediterranean Sea from Sevastopol to Tartus, crossing the Black Sea.
    Otherwise, he, the enemy, out of his stupidity can send forward submarines, which our "mosquitoes" cannot oppose at all.
    There are other means of fighting against submarines. In a threatened war period, RTOs will not be left alone with the enemy's submarines. A ship of such a small displacement cannot be made universal (against all troubles), therefore criticism is illogical and meaningless.
    in the light of the cancellation of the INF Treaty, Buyans do not have any significant advantages over coastal missile systems.
    The advantage is that by sailing from the coast, the range of the missiles is increased.
  • Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 25 September 2020 14: 17 New
    0
    so they don't order Buyan-M anymore .. Maybe later they will order several MACs for the same Far East or coastal patrol, and that's not a fact, sir ..
  • Sofa
    Sofa 23 September 2020 13: 33 New
    +3
    But what about submarines that can sink it with one launch ??? or an aircraft from the same aircraft carrier ??? I think that this is a waste of money on these ships for the place they need to build at least corvettes, their arsenal will be more powerful and more sense
  • Login_Off
    Login_Off 23 September 2020 05: 43 New
    -3



    So this is who I saw smoking in late July and early August in Primorye.
    The site compresses the photo. But the outline of it.
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 23 September 2020 05: 50 New
      -1
      Quote: Login_Off
      So this is who I saw smoking in late July and early August in Primorye

      Chinese engines smoke on "cold"? what
    2. pin_code
      pin_code 23 September 2020 06: 05 New
      +3
      grayvoron cannot be at the Pacific Fleet, he is being tested at the Black Sea Fleet.
    3. Xnumx vis
      Xnumx vis 23 September 2020 06: 46 New
      +3
      Quote: Login_Off
      So this is who I saw smoking in late July and early August in Primorye.
      The site compresses the photo. But the outline of it.

      It looks like the IPC. Albatross. Is he !
      1. Login_Off
        Login_Off 23 September 2020 09: 46 New
        +1
        Yes, it is similar, but the superstructure is slightly different
        1. ZEMCH
          ZEMCH 23 September 2020 13: 44 New
          +2
          This is IPC 1124M. Only the left main engine is running, it looks like it is just started, or is at a "stop". But judging by the smoke, it's time to "burn"))). Above is Frigate, so M, not pure 1124.
          1. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 25 September 2020 19: 52 New
            0
            Above is Frigate, so M, not pure 1124.


            and one bomb
    4. timokhin-aa
      timokhin-aa 23 September 2020 11: 13 New
      +1
      This is the IPC pr1124
  • Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 23 September 2020 05: 44 New
    +1
    Since 2010, nine such RTOs have been built, including the Graivoron.
    This is more than nothing! hi
  • Cowbra
    Cowbra 23 September 2020 05: 50 New
    0
    but neither one nor the other carry missile strike weapons

    Below you have a photo - look behind the gun turret))) There is something else cool:
    The US Navy has yet to resupply missiles on the Independence-class coastal warship Gabrielle Giffords.
    According to The Drive portal, the ship is equipped with a modern Mk 87 Mod 0 launcher, designed for eight RGM-184A Naval Strike Missile stealth missiles. In October last year, during an exercise on the island of Guam, the Giffords crew hit a decommissioned frigate with such a missile and sank it.
    The authors of The Drive suggest that this is due to problems in the interaction between the Norwegian weapons developer - Kongsberg - and its manufacturer, the American concern Raytheon.

    And on land, yes - nothing. It is also expensive and uneconomical, which is why 4-year-old scows are written off - even as educational ones they won't go - it's too expensive to exploit
  • 7,62h54
    7,62h54 23 September 2020 05: 57 New
    +8
    This project of river MRK not only lacks air defense, but also anti-submarine defense. It is quite possible to walk on inland waterways. But to release it on big water - they will not live long.
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 23 September 2020 08: 18 New
      +1
      an unsuccessful project designed for a canceled drmsd, but let them complete it, will walk in a group with a corvette or karakurt
    2. CSKA
      CSKA 23 September 2020 09: 33 New
      0
      Quote: 7,62x54
      This project of river MRCs not only lacks air defense

      It looks like the designer was tasked only with shooting down anti-ship missiles, not enemy aircraft.
      Quote: 7,62x54
      oh and anti-submarine too

      UKSK is capable of shooting anti-submarine 91R1
    3. Serg65
      Serg65 23 September 2020 09: 52 New
      -3
      Quote: 7,62x54
      but also anti-submarine

      And she, this anti-submarine defense, is so necessary for him ???
      1. 7,62h54
        7,62h54 23 September 2020 09: 55 New
        +1
        To listen to you and the fleet is not needed. We'll get by with rockets on the shore.
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 23 September 2020 10: 20 New
          0
          Well, if you follow your lead, you need to put the Package on each tug! Everyone has their own tasks and there is no need to cram something unproductive where not!
          1. 7,62h54
            7,62h54 23 September 2020 10: 27 New
            0
            Sail calmly, nothing will be put on your tug.
            1. Serg65
              Serg65 23 September 2020 10: 46 New
              -2
              Those. instead of proving the need for PLO on every boat sailing under Andrey, are you trying to blame me for something using your sarcasm?
              1. timokhin-aa
                timokhin-aa 23 September 2020 11: 13 New
                +3
                According to all NATO doctrines, surface ships are destroyed whenever possible by submarines and aircraft, exceptions are permissible, but they are usually avoided. Remember the Falklands, for example.
                And the buoy has eight calibers, a separate detachment of forces will be allocated for their destruction even before the conflict, they will probably start with them.
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 23 September 2020 12: 27 New
                  -6
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  the buoy has eight calibers, a separate detachment of forces will be allocated for their destruction even before the conflict, and they will probably start with them.

                  That is, the enemy's submarine penetrates the guarded base in advance and waits for an hour X?
                  1. timokhin-aa
                    timokhin-aa 23 September 2020 13: 06 New
                    +2
                    Why PL? Why the base? Sergei, as an officer, clowning does not suit you.
                    1. Serg65
                      Serg65 23 September 2020 13: 18 New
                      -1
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      Why PL?

                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      to all NATO doctrines, surface ships are destroyed if possible by submarines

                      The same air raid will not remain unnoticed!
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      Why the base?

                      And where are you going to destroy the Buyans? Off the coast of Turkey?
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      Clownery doesn't suit you as an officer.

                      Yes, you will not only become a clown! Either you have one Black Sea Fleet defending the whole of Russia, and the rest are sleeping soundly after Friday, then from the entire Black Sea Fleet only Buyans can fight ... although as I remember you stood like a mountain for Karakurt !!!
                      1. timokhin-aa
                        timokhin-aa 23 September 2020 13: 50 New
                        +3
                        The same air raid will not remain unnoticed!


                        Ну и что?

                        And where are you going to destroy the Buyans? Off the coast of Turkey?


                        So they are now off the coast of Turkey, in the Mediterranean, then in the Black Sea.
                        It will be difficult for the Turks to reach the Caspian brawlers, but the Black Sea ones will be easy and simple.
                      2. Serg65
                        Serg65 23 September 2020 14: 58 New
                        -3
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        simply and easily

                        Oh Sasha .. it was with these words that the big problems began!
                      3. timokhin-aa
                        timokhin-aa 23 September 2020 19: 46 New
                        +1
                        And again they can start, but it is not easier for us that problems will not only be with us.
  • Cowbra
    Cowbra 23 September 2020 12: 55 New
    0
    This is a small boat. MRK If you shove everything described on it, there will already be a corvette and a displacement twice. As I understand it, it should work as an LCS, and, unlike the American ones, it can work near its shores.
  • pin_code
    pin_code 23 September 2020 06: 04 New
    0
    according to the last paragraph ... these ships, after completion of construction, must be driven in exercises as carriers of anti-aircraft missile helicopters. and the more often the better
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 23 September 2020 08: 16 New
    +2
    article about mrk, but finished on unnecessary udk which "can be conditionally considered aircraft carriers", but can we consider defeat as a victory conditionally?
  • Hermit21
    Hermit21 23 September 2020 08: 41 New
    +6
    I would consider RTOs as floating "Bastions", which can move away from the coast for several tens or hundreds of kilometers and thereby further push back the launching lines of the CD from enemy ships. And with the installation of "Pantsirei-M" on 22800, they can intercept them under certain conditions. From this perspective, their construction is fully justified
    1. prodi
      prodi 23 September 2020 08: 59 New
      -3
      yes, the armament of their "Calibers" looks strange
      1. Hermit21
        Hermit21 23 September 2020 09: 08 New
        +4
        But why. In inland seas missiles with a range of 2600-3500 km are very appropriate and useful.
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 23 September 2020 09: 24 New
        +6
        Quote: prodi
        yes, the armament of their "Calibers" looks strange

        Nothing strange - RTOs were originally built as a means of circumventing the INF Treaty. After all, the treaty prohibited only long-range ground-based launchers of the KR, nothing was said about sea ones (it would be strange if the United States decided to put "tomahawks" under the knife smile ).
        1. prodi
          prodi 23 September 2020 10: 01 New
          +4
          so it turns out after such "crooked" contracts - such a "crooked" fleet multiplied by poverty
          1. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 23 September 2020 19: 48 New
            +3
            Not for poverty, for stupidity.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 23 September 2020 09: 21 New
      +5
      Quote: Hermit21
      I would consider RTOs as floating "Bastions", which can move away from the coast for several tens or hundreds of kilometers and thereby further push back the launching lines of the CD from enemy ships.

      The maximum is 300 kilometers, and then under the condition of covering with a couple of IAP. Otherwise, adversaries will arrive and arrange turkey hunt.
      1. Hermit21
        Hermit21 23 September 2020 09: 37 New
        -4
        Considering the range of 800/1000 + km for Onyx / Zircon (the Emperor is more trusted) and the range of the current Tomahawks of 1600 km, even 300 kilometers will greatly reduce the distance that the Kyrgyz Republic will reach deep into the territory
  • moreman78
    moreman78 23 September 2020 09: 52 New
    +3
    Quote: Hermit21
    Considering the range of 800/1000 + km for Onyx / Zircon (the Emperor is more trusted) and the range of the current Tomahawks of 1600 km, even 300 kilometers will greatly reduce the distance that the Kyrgyz Republic will reach deep into the territory

    That's just the adversary's Tomahawks on nuclear submarines, which, given the practically absence of PLO corvettes (soon the old men of the IPC will come to an end, although now the cat has cried) and PLO aviation, can approach almost densely to our shores on North and Pacific Fleet!
  • Region-25.rus
    Region-25.rus 23 September 2020 09: 54 New
    -3
    Quote: 7,62x54
    This project of river MRK not only lacks air defense, but also anti-submarine defense. It is quite possible to walk on inland waterways. But to release it on big water - they will not live long.

    really? From so news! Those. it turns out that all my trips around Japan in winter in storms, on the ancient "Baltic-76" type "river-sea" (or as they called between themselves "river-MOUNTAIN") is just a dream? ... And the forest there, and the car back on this old trough is also a dream? Storms, icing, ice and so on, also a dream? And this steamer's lines are not just like a sea vessel. And imagine, not only lived on big water (the Sea of ​​Japan is not the Gulf of Finland, but the Pacific Ocean, even near the coast is a dangerous thing), but even took the old man to Vietnam to rest (cutting into metal). And from Vladivostok to Vietnam the path is not close. And count! The old man came.
    1. Tamer
      Tamer 23 September 2020 10: 40 New
      +2
      I figured that 7,62h54 I meant the defenselessness of this MRK in front of the enemy's aviation and fleet on the "big water".
    2. timokhin-aa
      timokhin-aa 23 September 2020 11: 26 New
      0
      The buoys in Biscay nearly drowned, if you don't know.
      This is how this miracle of technology behaves on the wave.





      And this is never a "seven-point storm", as they write on YouTube.
      1. kepmor
        kepmor 23 September 2020 12: 54 New
        +2
        excitement point 4, no more ... the wave is not steep, gentle and long, but it fills the tank specifically ... after all, the draft and the depth are not for ocean "cruises" ...
        although the Albatross is more stable on such a wave due to the presence of the GAS fairing, but the use of weapons is questionable ... gyro stabilization is at the limit ...
        and for the "river-sea" seaworthiness in this case is quite consistent ... about the possibility of shooting with "caliber" we better keep quiet ... those who are supposed to know this in all the details ...
      2. ZEMCH
        ZEMCH 23 September 2020 14: 09 New
        +2
        This is how Project 956 behaves on the wave, Fearless filmed from Kuzi in 2004, in the same place in the Bay of Biscay
        1. kepmor
          kepmor 23 September 2020 15: 07 New
          0
          well, for 6-7 points, the destroyer goes quite well ... the roll is no more than 20 ... the tank does not go under the water ... it scours slightly along the course, although +/- 10-15 V is not critical with such excitement ... if not for the disrupted PSN and the wrecked command boat, then everything is fine ...
          but on "Albatross" to be in such a sea is simply tin ... the deck in the waist area will definitely crack ... you can say goodbye to rails, a boat and PSNs forever ... and inside there will also be that "Stalingrad" ...
          1. ZEMCH
            ZEMCH 23 September 2020 15: 24 New
            +2
            A video somewhere lying around the delivery of Americans to Novaya Zemlya, to the IPC 1124M, the Americans were no longer delivered on ships))), only by helicopters, you can describe the storm at the IPC with the words - "head and legs", Our friends were placed in the officer's, we are in the and on the PSU, it was easiest in the PEZH))) only the inclinometer was embarrassing when they fell on board and froze for a few seconds)))
            1. kepmor
              kepmor 23 September 2020 15: 27 New
              0
              originally from the 77th brigade or from the Gremikhansk ??? ...
              1. ZEMCH
                ZEMCH 23 September 2020 15: 28 New
                0
                Started in 270 Guards
              2. ZEMCH
                ZEMCH 23 September 2020 15: 29 New
                0
                Everyone was gathered in Deer
        2. timokhin-aa
          timokhin-aa 23 September 2020 19: 50 New
          +2
          Here are just waves ahem ... ahem ... others so to speak.
          1. ZEMCH
            ZEMCH 24 September 2020 00: 08 New
            0
            ))) The first time in the Bay of Biscay was at the Hassan Management Company, still a cadet.
            Whoever went to these CCs remembers that the cadets were fed in the nose. There was an outfit in the galley, I was getting just barely enough water, a wave - and the bleed was empty))). Motalo like Fearless, closer to the English Channel it calmed down and the Swell began))) many who survived the storm normally endured the swell worse)))
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. moreman78
      moreman78 23 September 2020 12: 01 New
      +1
      Quote: Region-25.rus
      Quote: 7,62x54
      This project of river MRK not only lacks air defense, but also anti-submarine defense. It is quite possible to walk on inland waterways. But to release it on big water - they will not live long.

      really? From so news! Those. it turns out that all my trips around Japan in winter in storms, on the ancient "Baltic-76" type "river-sea" (or as they called between themselves "river-MOUNTAIN") is just a dream? ... And the forest there, and the car back on this old trough is also a dream? Storms, icing, ice and so on, also a dream? And this steamer's lines are not just like a sea vessel. And imagine, not only lived on big water (the Sea of ​​Japan is not the Gulf of Finland, but the Pacific Ocean, even near the coast is a dangerous thing), but even took the old man to Vietnam to rest (cutting into metal). And from Vladivostok to Vietnam the path is not close. And count! The old man came.

      It's one thing to go on a cargo ship. But the warship is from a different opera, it needs to use weapons, and there are restrictions on this. So it turns out that when the excitement is above a certain norm - the sense from the RTO is ZERO!
  • timokhin-aa
    timokhin-aa 23 September 2020 11: 22 New
    12
    The article is nonsense, Buik has nothing to provide for the central control system, except for 3M14 and 3M54, he cannot shoot anything technically, even ONIX cannot, and for the 54th missile only by external target designation.

    How can you feed people with such an understandable thing? The most important thing is why such materials? This also damages the reputation of the site. Everyone can have mistakes, but here it is a deliberate deception of the readers. Zircon from this ship will never fly.
    1. DrEng527
      DrEng527 23 September 2020 16: 56 New
      0
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      The most important thing is why such materials?

      to pull an owl onto a globe - Buyans are very necessary ships ... request
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 23 September 2020 12: 34 New
    +1
    Factory sea trials are carried out by the regular crew of the ship together with the factory delivery team,

    ... I breathed into such familiar ... I remember how much depended on the "human factor" on the personalities of the Heads. Responsible ship supplier and representatives of the industry of various systems and adequate customers of the Navy. Perfect 100% fulfillment has never happened. And the question of compromise has always been there.

    So I wish the new bookmaker to successfully pass all the standards and tasks and raise the Andreev flag drinks
  • Scharnhorst
    Scharnhorst 23 September 2020 13: 35 New
    -1
    The buoys in Biscay nearly drowned, if you don't know.
    This is how this miracle of technology behaves on the wave.

    By the way, they are holding themselves pretty well !? The masterpieces of the German school of shipbuilding, the battle cruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau (which were thirty times heavier) had problems with seaworthiness even in the North Sea. And there were also restrictions on the use of weapons. And the costs of alteration under the Atlantic nose did not help much ... The general pathos of the comments comes down to the "greed" of the famous hero from the movie - "It will not be enough!"
  • ZEMCH
    ZEMCH 23 September 2020 15: 17 New
    +2
    These ships are only like the sea-river "Bastion" and only under the cover of air defense.
  • ZEMCH
    ZEMCH 23 September 2020 15: 40 New
    0
    Who is interested in the topic of discussing the modernization of Shaposhnikov https://topwar.ru/173385-nepolnocennaja-modernizacija-marshala-shaposhnikova.html#comment-id-10804283
    added fresh information from Dalzavod about the expected modernization of Vinogradov
    1. timokhin-aa
      timokhin-aa 23 September 2020 19: 54 New
      +1
      Remember our dispute about the "NK Package"? And the route cable to ČTA-53? laughing
      1. ZEMCH
        ZEMCH 23 September 2020 23: 51 New
        0
        I remember, apparently they gave more money for Vinogradov)))
        1. timokhin-aa
          timokhin-aa 24 September 2020 12: 59 New
          +1
          It's just the key point. As in mathematics - a prerequisite. Without the "Package" - the target. With the "Packet" - let's discuss the combat effectiveness, we will express our opinions.
          1. ZEMCH
            ZEMCH 24 September 2020 13: 05 New
            0
            If they do everything they promise, then we can really talk about modernization, and air defense, and anti-aircraft defense, and strike. Eight cells of UKSK for "Answer" are planned
            1. timokhin-aa
              timokhin-aa 24 September 2020 13: 44 New
              0
              Well, here you can only rejoice. It was just that without the Package, the Art Nouveau was scanty. Therefore, the dramatization of the issue. The main threat is from under the water.
              And you should also bet on the Hat. The blizzard has been installed, so the cables and data buses have been updated. It is necessary to stick the SM-588 RTU.
              1. ZEMCH
                ZEMCH 24 September 2020 13: 57 New
                0
                The main thing is that the terms of modernization do not go to the right, and something must be done with Chaban, sorry, the newest
  • Old26
    Old26 23 September 2020 15: 51 New
    +3
    Quote: Serg65
    And how will the submarine go to the Black Sea?

    Elementary. You don't even need to involve non-Black Sea NATO countries. There is a "transfer" of submarines of the Navy of Georgia, Romania, Bulgaria. Crews dressed in the naval uniforms of these countries (no matter whose reality they are)

    Quote: Serg65
    That's right, SAME! Those. on the surface, and therefore, when passing through the straits, they are the most vulnerable and easily detected. Catch them on the way out of the Bosphorus and snap like seeds! And if Buyans preventively fill up the bridge of martyrs and the bridges of the sultans with calibers, these submarines will remain in the Sea of ​​Marmara.

    You would, Sergei, still decide on the combat equipment of the ships. And then I look at you, "Calibers" are generally "omnivorous". They are capable of hitting the suspension bridge at a distance of several hundred kilometers. Yes, submarines at the crossings through the Sea of ​​Marmara and the straits are most easily detected (if any), because they go on the surface. But with what? The range is about 550-800 km from the Crimea, which radar station can be "seen" at this distance, the cabin of a boat on the water surface ??? So??? Then you propose to fill up the bridges, which is not a fact will be possible, tk. The "calibers" are subsonic, and the air defense system of such objects exists and is quite dense. That boats, almost in the straits are going to "click" some seeds? Is it okay that the anti-ship version of the Caliber has a range of about 4 hundred kilometers? Where are you going to "click" such boats. Do not forget at the same time that such a rocket will go to the maximum range for about half an hour. Enough time to lift at least a couple of planes from the shore and "crumble" all these "Calibers" on the way

    Quote: Serg65
    There are not so many airfields and they are all under the gun ... of the same Buyanov laughing

    You shouldn't make another wunderwaffe from Buyanov-M, as well as from Caliber. Read how long the Americans took out the T-4 airbase (EMNIP) in Syria, bringing down more than fifty "axes" on it. For a day or a little more / less ??? And this is half a hundred "axes" for one base, and you are here going to destroy half a hundred bases with fifty or a little more "Caliber"? And as anti-ship missiles "Caliber" you will not use, in which case ???

    Quote: Serg65
    Quote: Kalmar
    Without proper accompaniment by large oil companies "Buyany" and "Karakurt" in such an operation will be suicide bombers.

    Why would? They shoot straight from the bay, even without going to sea!

    So you are going to fire subsonic cruise missiles across the entire Black Sea? at the same time that the region will be saturated with air defense facilities, both ships and ground, not to mention aviation ???

    Quote: Serg65
    In the 80s, the Black Sea diesels passed the straits underwater, unnoticed by anyone, and here, if they behave correctly, they will achieve success!

    As far as I heard, they passed Gibraltar, but the Bosphorus with its depths is something new. Moreover, the passage of boats is regulated precisely on the surface ...
  • CastroRuiz
    CastroRuiz 23 September 2020 20: 06 New
    0
    Navodit cirkoni na etikh sudinishkakh kto i kak budet?
    1. timokhin-aa
      timokhin-aa 24 September 2020 13: 00 New
      +1
      Nobody in any way.
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 27 September 2020 18: 21 New
    +1
    "So if Russia wants to retain its status as a naval power, it will somehow have to invest in the construction of 'big' ships: frigates, destroyers and, of course, aircraft carriers." Ilya is completely wrong, we do not need status, but defense capability, and it can only be ensured near our shores, with coastal-based aviation. coastal missiles. DMZ is a work area for submarines only. He himself writes that while there are two new frigates .... well, three small ones, and at such a rate, the number of large surface ships will only decrease, No one in a sober mind will throw money down the drain on surface ships when the issues of coastal aviation, minesweepers and replenishment of the submarine fleet. The construction of the UDC is a crime.
  • Metlik
    Metlik 27 September 2020 23: 00 New
    +1
    "In addition, this concept (modularity) loses all meaning after the ship goes to sea."

    And if you think about it? A warship left the port. What configuration is its armament in? Anti-ship, air defense, flat, or other? The enemy will have to deal with an unknown quantity and send many times more forces to counteract.
  • Petrol cutter
    Petrol cutter 9 November 2020 19: 45 New
    0
    “I must say that the first steps (we do not take into account the de facto incapacitated heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov) have already been made. In July of this year, Russia, for the first time in its history, laid down two universal amphibious assault helicopter carriers, which can also be conditionally considered“ aircraft carriers "
    I can't understand how the UDC can be equated with an aircraft carrier ... request
  • Nazar
    Nazar 22 November 2020 06: 14 New
    -1
    Quote: "the main striking force at sea was the aircraft carriers" - just like that? belay
    Do underwater strategists smoke quietly in the kitchen? I wonder how this "main striking force" would look like in the Baltic or Black Seas, which were fired through from the coast?
    "Specialist" wrote an article, what can I say ...