"The target will not wait until they open fire on it": in the USA the program of infantry training for marines is being changed

The US military announces the continuation of the implementation of a new training program for the training of infantry personnel of the Marine Corps (ILC). The ART standard shooting training, which has been in place for decades, is being replaced by the so-called annual ARQ shooting qualification. On this basis, in the United States, it is assumed that the number of owners of the rifle insignia will now significantly decrease.

What is the essence of the new US Marines firearms training program?

In the messages of the US military, it is said about the introduction of a new principle. It consists in the fact that the soldier can focus not on the classic version of hitting the target, but on the lethality of the shot. The ARQ program pays special attention to night shooting, as well as shooting at moving targets.

US Army Warrant Officer Eric Brown from the USMC Training Battalion from North Carolina:

This is more of a fighting style, shooting in an environment close to combat.

The American command notes that standard firearms training does not meet modern challenges. Military personnel need to be trained in practical shooting of the nature that they may encounter in real combat, where the target will definitely not wait until they open fire on it.

The current shooting training program has been operating in the States (with some changes) since 1907, assuming the defeat of targets at 200, 300 and 500 yards (a yard is 0,9144 m) in several versions - from sitting, lying, standing, and also standing on the knee. There is a part for practicing close combat - 20-25 m.

The new program, developed in 2018, involves the implementation of practical shooting with combat equipment, including body armor, helmet. One of the exercises is shooting at a target while approaching it (open or covert) using the M4, M27 or M16. Shooting cut-off - every 15 yards (13,72 m), starting at 500 yards (457,2 m). The main task is to damage the head or chest area.

Also, the innovation is to allow the use of artificial supports for shooters - for example, to put a tactical backpack or magazines under the barrel of a rifle. While firing, Marines will no longer have the ability to aim long after each shot. Instead, they will be given a total shooting time — for example, 45 seconds for five shots at 500 yards, three seconds for headshots at a target at 25 yards.

The system of evaluating results is also changing. Different points will be awarded (or not awarded) based on the following scale: miss, suppress, destroy.

It is believed that the new program will be extended to all divisions of the ILC in 2021.

Comments

[grandfather_Kostya]

As a program, "continuing education" is quite reasonable. Beginners will still have to teach in the old way, on fixed targets without time cut-off.

[YOUR]

Read the training program for the US Marines.
Designed for 6 months, in principle, the same training as ours. But!!!! For shooting training, 3000 rounds are allocated for each.

[Narak-zempo]

And how many buckets of potatoes and square meters of cleaned sorts, painted lawns, how many bricks are laid in the general's dachas?
Although, commercial firms are engaged in painting grass in the States: http://topru.org/14802/pokraska-gazonov-v-ssha/

[Krasnodar]

Quote: YOUR

Read the training program for the US Marines.
Designed for 6 months, in principle, the same training as ours. But!!!! For shooting training, 3000 rounds are allocated for each.

In the most bespontovoy near-infantry part of Israel (such as the Internal Troops), 4000 rounds are allocated to the KMB, and single ones. )) Therefore, it makes sense for marins to train according to the program described in the article in order to learn how to shoot

[YOUR]

Quote: Krasnodar

In the most bespontovaya near-infantry part of Israel (such as the Internal Troops), 4000 rounds are allocated to the KMB,

There are no ponty or bespontov military units, there is a training program approved by the country's Ministry of Defense and the number of hours for the study of weapons, drill training, study of regulations, etc. strictly regulated, incl. and the amount of ammunition the recruit must release.
Do not invent.
But if so I will read it with pleasure. Just wondering.

[Krasnodar]

Bespontovaya in the sense that she has a minimum of infantry work - despite the roughly similar basic training programs at the initial stage.
https://ru.qwe.wiki/wiki/Israel_Border_Police
Analogue of the French gendarmerie - plus or minus

[YOUR]

In your material that you suggested, there is nothing at all about combat training.

[Krasnodar]

I showed you what part
As for preparation - I don't think there is in Russian at all

[YOUR]

Let's not speak Russian. I'll try to figure it out.

[Krasnodar]

Hebrew text with link removed by moderators
Here is a link to the clip - documentary footage with fragments of preparation
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JkM0ojH2tb4 - вначале идут кадры работы спецназа этой части - они одеты в гражданское подделываются под арабов. Курс 3 месяца, отбор - 17-18 человек на 50 претендентов, выбранных из 650 желающих (настоящее задержание, драка в стиле ММА). На курсе в основном стреляют из пистолета и учатся работать в застройке, а также профессии. Направляются, в основном, ребята после КМБ и какого то времени нахождения в роте текущей безопасности или другом подразделении
KMB - I will translate and throw off in a personal

[YOUR]

Well I will wait

[Krasnodar]

Original in Hebrew in PM
Translation:
KMB fighters MAGAV takes 4 months (my call - November 97, almost six months).
They acquire the skills of using weapons, undergo shooting training (three weeks, from 25 to 300 meters, M-16, single), acquire the skills of fighting in the open (up to the battalion, each exercise is carried out with live ammunition after grueling rehearsals on dry land) and built-up areas (with and without a peacekeeper / hostages - the difference is the use of a grenade), they learn life in the field (4 days - show-off), they teach the powers of the police (part belongs to the Israeli police), they take a course on Combating Terror (also exhausting dry rehearsals, then a lot of shooting combat), the fight against mass riots (dispersal of demonstrations, including the use of special equipment and all that), internal security (anti-terrorism + riots), receive a course of "education" (like Arabs are people too, a lot of videos with bullying by the Israeli military - at the + level - hazing in the SA and IT CANNOT BE DONE - otherwise criminal terms), the basics of demining-demining (show-off) and first aid (also p onts). Upon completion of the KMB, fighters receive qualification 0,5 (the ability to work in an open field in battalion order, for 0,7 infantry - Brigade + interaction with other types of troops - tanks, etc.). Most of the KMB fighters are engaged in the acquisition of combat skills, but unlike the infantry, they specialize in military operations among civilians, i.e. selective shooting and riot suppression. In addition, there is training in the rights and duties of police officers and the basics of criminal law.
(My brackets, with explanations)

[YOUR]

But it is not written that 4000 rounds are allocated for training per soldier.

[Krasnodar]

This is nowhere to be found Those who served in the training know this - like me))) Although, I can look. By the way, the Israeli infantryman has in the region of 7-10 thousand rounds of ammunition in the CM and military exercises

[YOUR]

It is hard to believe.

[Krasnodar]

This is a feature of Israeli training - a fighter (and not only) serves three (now a little less) years of imprisonment, then up to 35-40 years, once a year for a month, he makes a reserve service (war out of turn, of course ). Thus, a qualitative advantage is achieved over neighbors and any potential aggressor - otherwise the khan))

[YOUR]

Quite possible. But the consumption of ammunition is too high, given that the same M16 can withstand no more than 30 thousand shots, then the rifles must fly into the melt with terrible force.

[Krasnodar]

I have never heard of 30 thousand for junk, but they are, for the most part, "free" from the States. When I read that Israel alone M-16 costs very ridiculous money, I don't remember the number. But, even so, one rifle is enough for 7 calls of my unit - two years +. Not bad.

[YOUR]

I will not argue, I am guided by open sources. But if the exercises are held at least once a quarter and 10 rounds of ammunition are fired from a rifle, count yourself how long it will last. The grooves will wear off.

[Krasnodar]

Such figures are only at the KMB and "advanced (combined arms" exercises "of the infantry - then everything is more modest. In my part - EMNIP firing up to 150 rounds per month, exercises once a year - there is also much less, because less basic training

[YOUR]

By the way, the Israeli infantryman has in the region of 7-10 thousand rounds of ammunition in the CM and military exercises

Well you wrote and KMB and teachings.

[Krasnodar]

Not. In the area of ​​10 thousand - KMB and the so-called "advanced exercise" of the infantry, lasting 2 months (interaction with other types of troops).

[YOUR]

For training 100 people 1 million cartridges, and for exercises involving 1000 people 10 million cartridges. not counting other ammunition. I doubt very much that the Israeli economy will survive this.

[Krasnodar]

Easily
The country's defense budget for 2019 amounted to (at that rate) 1 trillion 200 billion rubles net (about 1,5 trillion gross). Among these attendants, amer's aid amounted to 3,8 billion tanks (or 250 billion rubles approximately at the rate of 2019)
If the infantry in the conscript is about 10% (net infantry, fighters), then consider how much Israel can afford to allocate for their initial training

[SOVIET UNION 2]

Well, on fixed targets, it's more like getting used to the weapon. You also get used to it by another car. Even one model, and here you are! It seems the same, but not that! Therefore, I think that the decision is very sound! It is possible for the time of defeat of the appearing figures! And if you put it on money? Struck in 1 second, you 10 bucks! Struck in 2 seconds, you 5 bucks. I hit you in 3 seconds, you got 1 buck. I hit you in 4 seconds, you got 1 buck. I hit you in 5 seconds, you got 5 bucks. Struck 6 sec., From you 10 bucks. After 7 seconds, the goal disappeared and you got 20 bucks! Is it fair? In peacetime, time is money, in wartime, life! What do VO readers think?

[Alex777]

The states are seriously preparing for a real war.
I wonder what changes we have for the better in preparation.
I personally am not interested in inventing something for the enemy.

[Boris ⁣ Shaver]

Quote: Alex777

I wonder what changes we have for the better in preparation

We are returning the zampolitov, we are increasing the number of "educators".
The results of "improvements" in combat training, for example, the shooting of our tankers, have recently been widely discussed on the net.

[Doliva63]

Quote: Alex777

The states are seriously preparing for a real war.
I wonder what changes we have for the better in preparation.
I personally am not interested in inventing something for the enemy.

The good old Soviet AKM / AK-74 control firing exercise from the shaggy times involved shooting from all positions, incl. and outright, with the obligatory change of the store on the go (in the stores of 20 and 15 rounds); close target - 150 m, distant (moving growth targets) - 300 m - in total, like, 4 lines. We shot him on Wednesdays, I remember - at 10 am the first shot, at 2 am - the last. And nobody canceled the rise at 6 For pistol lovers, in addition to fire training behind the park, there was a shooting range - every day, for an hour, right after lunch, "admission is free" for all officers, warrant officers and sergeants, even PM, even PB. They were shooting well, many of them had ranks. What needs to be changed for the better?

[mole]

Quote: SOVIET UNION 2

Well, on fixed targets, it's more like getting used to the weapon. You also get used to it by another car. Even one model, and here you are! It seems the same, but not that! Therefore, I think that the decision is very sound! It is possible for the time of defeat of the appearing figures! And if you put it on money? Struck in 1 second, you 10 bucks! Struck in 2 seconds, you 5 bucks. I hit you in 3 seconds, you got 1 buck. I hit you in 4 seconds, you got 1 buck. I hit you in 5 seconds, you got 5 bucks. Struck 6 sec., From you 10 bucks. After 7 seconds, the goal disappeared and you got 20 bucks! Is it fair? In peacetime, time is money, in wartime, life! What do VO readers think?

"Dates" will go crazy to make accruals.
Sometimes they don't fight for money. You are offering a system similar to professional sports. But sport is different from war, although the skills gained in sports come in handy.

[boni592807]

Mole (Leonid), today, 11:05 "..." Dates "will go crazy to produce accruals.
Sometimes they don't fight for money. You offer a system similar to professional sports. But sport is different from war, although the skills gained in sports come in handy ... "


Who is talking about what ...
Unfortunately, this is our "EVERYTHING" (homeliness - stinginess - with inability (not wanting to count the real costs - profit) crawls out of the cracks. This is NOT for you - Mole (Leonid), today, 11:05. This is a pledged SYSTEM.
As in the period of the USSR, when the United States used second-purpose technologies to minimize costs in its military-industrial complex. Those. for the military-industrial complex and citizens. But we do not ... There is still reason to think that even now, it is "beyond" ...
Why not use their experience in relation to civilian weapons, well, they do not want It with us.
Well then, maximum shooting ranges... For our military-industrial complex, this is also a benefit - weapons, ammunition and benefits for the state. The experience of treatment and skills of both potential recruits and reservists. And if you start playing airball (paintball, laser tag, etc.), then there is MORE equipment, ammunition, as well as gaining experience, both potential recruits and reservists. Workplaces, etc.
It is not harmful to dream, it is not harmful to dream !!!

[aybolyt678]

Quote: SOVIET UNION 2

Is it fair? In peacetime, time is money, in wartime, life! What do VO readers think?

it does not correspond to their military doctrine .. they missiles from afar, because the aviation is like in Iraq. And then they will say that there was no one and a half million Iraqi army or they find a third force, local Pawnee Indians, fighters against the regime ... them under bullets or for reconnaissance in force, and only then, a ranger goes to local bars ... what you say it would be for us !!

[Senka naughty]

Yes, this is not a chunga-chang with 10m of air bombs to cover. Here you will have to change your trousers a couple of times a day.

[beeper]

Well, yes, offhand shooting is more interesting and much closer to the reality of infantry combat!
You need to "grow together with your weapon", then high-speed shooting will be good when your hands and body get used to feeling the axis of the barrel bore (in the dark, when shooting "at sound" is also a Plus)!
Well done, they are creative in the process.
I liked the well-aimed "dazibao" from the American army pistol shooting course even earlier:

In a fire fight, the winner is not the one who shoots first, but the one who hits his opponent first!

[Senka naughty]

Quote: pishchak

In a fire fight, the winner is not the one who shoots first, but the one who hits his opponent first!

Oh, not a fact, did this "dazibao" fire suppression, with its pistol shooting course, also canceled? It is clear to the specialist that if you hear a bullet, do not be afraid, and not everyone can do that for an ordinary infantryman. Until he is properly fired in the "field", no instructor will teach this.

[Cowbra]

Just about, by the way. a nerve when shooting at a snarling, even inaccurate target - will be both for the specialist and for the Lord.
By the way, nobody was embarrassed by shooting on the move with optics?)))) Collimator - I understand that, but take off the optics here)))

[beeper]

Is that why you "minus" me, Senka Shaly?
Wrote the same in the pistol (usually armed with a pistol and systematically learn to wield it, NOT "ordinary infantrymen" ) shootout, and not in combined arms combat!
So, there is a famous case when in the 90s several FBI agents and several mafiosi, unexpectedly for both sides, entered into a long gunfight from pistols almost point-blank, at an average distance of 3 (three!) Meters. We spent a total of two hundred rounds of ammunition, but in the end we got only a few light tangential wounds to each other and fled!
Yes, psychological stability and motivation (as well as the speed of reaction, and the acquired reflexes!) Play a big role in a fire fight, Senka Shaly!

[Senka naughty]

Quote: pishchak

Is that why you "minus" me, Senka Shaly?

To be honest, I don’t remember, yali-didn’t) I don’t participate in these + \ - at all
And if according to the text of the article, then there seems to be information on the troops as a whole, and not on the specialists. Can you imagine if the specialists go into a mass attack on the specialists .. this is meat. Everyone is not afraid of bullets to teach, not just harmful, it is simply unacceptable. Psychological stability and courage are gold for a specialist, but for an infantryman it is certain death. The more a detachment of fighters is afraid of dying (this is not about cowardice), the more comfortable it is for the commander to go to the exit. I didn’t deal with specialists, so I cannot be persuaded

[beeper]

Well, there is also general statistics of past big wars - in the trench (trench), reflecting the enemy attack, being under the influence of return fire, only 5-7% of the fighters shoot aimingly, the rest shoot simply "in the direction of the targets", or even completely, from the bottom of the trench - "into the white light ..."!
I do not intend to overpersuade and did not even intend to!

[Senka naughty]

Eh, if in the trench wars, the riflemen decided something, then the% of the fighters holding the machine gun in their hands would matter. General statistics do not win in wars, but aviation, artillery and well-coordinated work of the infantry. Good shooting, will save only from the brutal elephant on the safari.

[Krasnodar]

Quote: pishchak

So, there is a famous case when in the 90s several FBI agents and several mafiosi, unexpectedly for both sides, entered into a long gunfight from pistols almost point-blank, at an average distance of 3 (three!) Meters. We spent a total of two hundred rounds of ammunition, but in the end we got only a few light tangential wounds to each other and fled!

Simple policemen, from 5 - 10 meters. From around the world they go to the FBI for courses on instinctive shooting + development

[beeper]

I will not argue, Krasnodar, because I read about this in the Russian version of Soldier of Fortune back in the 1990s, but I remember that they were FBI agents after all, since this was what surprised me (by analogy with our Soviet KGB, whose ordinary employees they always fired better than ordinary policemen from their pistols, including some non-standard "trophy", new and almost pre-revolutionary, foreign 9-mm samples, they tried to shoot "Makarov" cartridges - then we could not understand, we were guessing , why, at the same time, the shutter of the "foreigners" "jumps" so sharply and the bullet that has taken off flies anyhow, only later they understood, , but were inferior in shooting to army men. Among the army men, even their "Makarovs" were the most "used" of all, with a noticeably "developed" escapement from frequent use - in Soviet times I personally witnessed various pistol firing and the results of army men, "committee men" and policemen, so this my personal value judgment, which I do not impose!).
IMHO

[Krasnodar]

Welcome
This is a well-known case - they talked about it at the "pistol courses". As for the FBI - specialists from many countries go to them for training. They have a pistol - "our everything." Very professional.

[John22]

I agree completely. You don't have to spare the patrons to learn at any level.

[Krasnodar]

Quote: pishchak

Well, yes, offhand shooting is more interesting and much closer to the reality of infantry combat!
You need to "grow together with your weapon", then high-speed shooting will be good when your hands and body get used to feeling the axis of the barrel bore (in the dark, when shooting "at sound" is also a Plus)!
Well done, they are creative in the process.
I liked the well-aimed "dazibao" from the American army pistol shooting course even earlier:

In a fire fight, the winner is not the one who shoots first, but the one who hits his opponent first!

I pull out fast - I shoot slowly

[Hunter 2]

Greetings Albert! In my life, I have never met characters who behave completely calmly under fire ... it is tactically correct to quickly shoot the first, and then aiming and calmly the second time.

[Krasnodar]

Hi Aleksey!
It was I who quoted the American "champion" of cowboy duels - every pistol training instructor in Israel quoted him to us We are talking about the so-called. internal security - there very rarely the battle begins with you and you need to react very quickly, and around your own peace.
And I completely agree with you - this is usually how it happens. You shoot towards the source of fire, and then you aim. More often than not, you just start looking for cover.

[KVU-NSVD]

Reasonable .. but the course of a young fighter will still assume classical firepower training, right away from this level the salabon will only diminish and ammunition will be wasted in vain.

[rotmistr60]

from sitting, lying, standing, and kneeling positions.

Since Soviet times, we have included shooting on the move for motorized riflemen. As an example of Control No. 3 for motorized riflemen: shooting on the move at the target "infantry behind the parapet", from the knee at the target "machine gun" and lying down at two moving growth targets. This means that training in shooting in the Soviet army was better than the American one.

[Doliva63]

Quote: rotmistr60

from sitting, lying, standing, and kneeling positions.

Since Soviet times, we have included shooting on the move for motorized riflemen. As an example of Control No. 3 for motorized riflemen: shooting on the move at the target "infantry behind the parapet", from the knee at the target "machine gun" and lying down at two moving growth targets. This means that training in shooting in the Soviet army was better than the American one.

Cool. We had a UKS, very similar: a group of infantry in a trench - lying down (plus, like, a grenade had to be thrown), a machine-gun crew - right off the bat, a grenade launcher - by choice, growth - lying down. A single shot is not.

[Coconut]

Realized ...)

[APASUS]

The current shooting training program has been operating in the States (with some changes) since 1907,

This is what I understand constancy

[Real Pilot]

I would like to add one point.
They are allowed to own weapons - the second amendment to the US Constitution.

And a lot of people, before joining the army and the Marine Corps under the contract, already have a very impressive shot. This is worth considering. And most can be taught immediately in depth, practical shooting.

That is, the average American boy who plans to sign a contract voluntarily (not on call) already has AR15 or even AK at home. and had already fired a pistol before. This is on average.
I was once at an American shooting range, where there is commercial shooting from various rental barrels. You can do your best not to train very expensively ... There is a completely different mentality in this regard.

There are, of course, people who go for citizenship or to escape from poverty into a social elevator. These clearly shoot worse, they must first go through the base. But this isn't the first time a black ghetto teen has seen a gun.

I conclude that the time has come to change the method of training shooters. Of course. And constant wars are pushing them to this.
But this is for external warfare.

But if a civil war begins there, the abundance of weapons will play a cruel joke with the Americans. When there are millions of barrels and cartridges around, and most know how to use them ...

[aszzz888]

Real Pilot
Today, 10:38 .. But if a civil war starts there, the abundance of weapons will play a cruel joke on the Americans. When there are millions of barrels and cartridges around, and most of them know how to use them ...

Well, they are still ahead, they shoot.

[boni592807]

aszzz888 (sheriff),, today, 10:58, NEW
Well, so they are still ahead, they shoot. laughing[/B]

Colleague, I understand your "optimism". But, "... be afraid of your desires! They are sometimes fulfilled ...!" Let me explain, the civil war in the United States is Their question, but the consequences could be OUR BIG "G" ... Let's list:
1. [b] YAO, XO, BO scattered all over the WORLD in the periob of the mess, the collapse of the former hegemon for many years (USA) and a multitude of little Leaders with ambitious ambitions, incl. along the perimeter (only) of the RF. Many will want to get something for personal use and DEMAND "YOURS". RF, ready for THIS situation? ...
2. Change of hegemon from "overseas" on "at the doorstep" who NOW will have no reason to think about the USA. What is the scope for the implementation of HIS personal WORLD plans without the main "competitor - partner". Those. violation of the counterbalance system ... RF, ready for this situation? ...
According to information in 1991, the United States was not particularly happy with the collapse of the USSR. No, not from "kindness", it is always safer to control a bear in a cage than a flock of hungry rats ...

[your1970]

Quote: RealPilot

But if a civil war breaks out there, then the abundance of weapons will play a cruel joke with the Americans. When there are millions of barrels and cartridges around, and most of them know how to use them

It's all great ... But there is a nuance ...
Remember the elderly couple - who went out to defend their house with a rifle and a pistol - when the blacks broke their gates? Them period shines ... to protect their private property ...
In the presence of a staggering number of trunks (up to 400 million !!) - Natsiks, skinheads, supporters of the ideas of the Kukluksklan, and just scumbags have gone somewhere ...
Or everyone has become so tolerant there that they kiss someone else's shoe - a nice thing ???
I do not understand...
Or about freedom-loving Americans who are ready to defend their home - their fortress - was that their bike? Their Propaganda?
Where is the mountain of corpses - from the proud Americans defending themselves and their private property?
They burned the car, ransacked the store - but a joke with him ??? !!!

[Fibrizio]

It doesn’t shine, but practice shows that they receive such support, and regularly.

And if you look at the map of the riots, they took place in unarmed states with Democratic governors.

[Prisoner]

And they probably would like to.