Military Review

Demonstration of trunks and desires: an overview of the market for self-propelled artillery systems

127

At DSEI 2019, BAE Systems presented a new version of the Archer self-propelled howitzer, mounted on the HX44 8x8 chassis by Rheinmetall MAN Military Vehicles


Self-propelled barreled artillery remained the basis of the arsenals of many armies of the world even after the Cold War, and its use in recent conflicts has shown the enormous importance and relevance of these weapons systems in any scenario of confrontation between equal opponents.

Of all the weapons that a modern, well-equipped army can use against its opponents, artillery remains one of the most destructive. Having demonstrated its power in the XNUMXth century, it continues to play a major role in modern conflicts in Syria and Ukraine.

Such confirmation of its potential is beginning to have a noticeable impact on the purchase of artillery systems by the main military powers. Although a full-scale conflict of almost equal rivals is unlikely so far, the growing disagreements between NATO countries and their allies on the one hand and the more belligerent (according to the West) Russia and China, on the other, are forcing the allocation of considerable funds for weapons necessary to successfully wage war against the militarily powerful opponent.

If such a conflict arises, then, in accordance with modern military theory, it will be characterized by a series of short sharp clashes in a number of areas of hostilities. Artillery, with its potential to disperse the concentration of enemy forces and support the maneuver of its forces, will be very important to gain an advantage. As a consequence, any military organization seeking to ensure a reliable deterrence of Russia or China must have a sufficient number of modern artillery weapons.

Although multiple launch rocket systems and mortars make up a significant part of artillery arsenals, traditional barreled artillery systems, in particular self-propelled howitzers (SG), remain the backbone of almost all armies in the world. These highly maneuverable systems can perform both the traditional task of mass shelling a given area, and fire expensive high-precision projectiles when delivering a selective strike at particularly important targets.

Superiority is required


However, in order for these systems to be able to reliably perform their tasks, they must match (or exceed) the weapons of their opponents in two critical characteristics: range and mobility. The first of these is a good incentive to modernize artillery systems and develop new ammunition; unable to strike at enemy artillery from a long distance, large-caliber cannons are more vulnerable to counter-battery fire.

Mobility at the operational and tactical levels is also paramount. Artillery systems must be able not only to arrive on the battlefield in time to support their forces, but also in the conflict zone, which is likely teeming with advanced systems and electronic warfare means, they must be able to quickly complete a fire mission and change position. In order to reduce the time spent in one place, artillery systems are increasingly being installed on self-propelled chassis, and also increase their level of autonomy through the integration of automatic loaders and digital fire control systems.

The availability of all these features is limited by only one factor - cost. Many armed forces are forced to balance, standing on the edges of an ever-widening chasm between shrinking budgets and the need to modernize equipment, which greatly affects the configuration of artillery systems.

Over the next decade, all these trends and factors are expected to change to some extent the entire self-propelled artillery market.

The global market for self-propelled artillery is projected to peak in 2022, after which costs will gradually decline to 2010s levels as programs in Europe and Asia-Pacific, which are currently driving growth, come to an end.

Even if most of these costs go towards upgrading or purchasing new tracked systems that have a greater range than their Cold War predecessors, nevertheless, one cannot fail to notice the increased attention to wheeled SGs based on military truck chassis. Compared to heavier systems, they are less tenacious, but this is offset by strategic mobility and, perhaps more importantly, reduced acquisition and maintenance costs.

It is predicted that between 2019 and 2029, all countries of the world will spend a total of $ 25,9 billion on self-propelled artillery procurement programs. This is 62% of the total artillery systems market.

88% of this amount will be concentrated in Europe, the Asia-Pacific region and North America, where the likelihood of conflict with equal rivals is especially high.

Focus on solving one problem


The SG's leadership is confirmed by the fact that the Long-Range Precision Fires program, which includes several subprograms for the development of new artillery systems, is considered by the American army as a priority modernization project.

In order to increase the level of uniformity of tracked artillery systems with other vehicles in its armored brigade groups, the US Army approved the transition to full-scale production of the BAE Systems M109A7 Paladin Integrated Management howitzer and later at the end of March 2020 signed a contract worth 339 million dollars for the supply of additional 48 platforms.


After the start of full-scale production of the M109A7 PIM howitzers, US investments in self-propelled guns are likely to remain relatively stable, although in the short and medium term there is no chance for manufacturers seeking to challenge the dominant position of BAE Systems.

However, the 155 mm / 39 klb cannon, currently integrated into the M109A7 platform, can hit targets at a distance of no more than 30 km, which is seriously inferior to the range of Russian new generation platforms. In this regard, it was decided to increase the capabilities of this system and install a 58-caliber barrel, developed under the Extended Range Cannon Artillery program. It is planned to begin its deployment among the troops in 2023, which will allow it to catch up with a potential enemy by increasing the maximum range to 70 km.

Despite an assessment of several wheeled artillery systems, such as the 155mm Brutus gun mounted on the chassis of the FMTV medium-duty military truck, the US Army has not officially started a program to develop such weapons.

Divided equally


The largest market for self-propelled howitzers is expected to be Europe, where, according to forecasts, a total of $ 2029 billion will be invested in the purchase of these systems until 8,3. Compared to North America, investment is more evenly divided between tracked and wheeled platforms, although there are several programs in which the exact configuration of the platform has not yet been determined.

As for the heavier machines, two main platforms prevail in the European market: the PzH 2000 of the German company KMW and the K9 Thunder manufactured by the South Korean Hanwha Techwin. Both systems are offered both from the factory and from the presence of armies of different countries, which makes them more affordable for a wide range of future customers.


While almost 50% of European investments in self-propelled systems will go to tracked platforms, wheeled units represent a significant share and may aim to win in many programs that have not yet decided on the final configuration.

Among the last customers of the PzH 2000 howitzer are Croatia, Lithuania and Hungary, which, for example, signed a contract for $ 565 million for the supply of 24 systems in one package with tanks Leopard 2.

An even larger part of the market is occupied by the K9 Thunder system, which entered service with Finland, Norway and Estonia, the latter decided in October 2019 to purchase six additional howitzers worth $ 21,9 million. In addition, Hanwha is actively transferring technology to its system. It provided technical assistance to Turkey in the development and local production of at least 350 Firtina platforms, and also authorized the licensed production of K9 hulls in Poland for the subsequent assembly of 120 Crab howitzers.

While these countries opted for tracked platforms, wheeled truck-based SGs increased their market share for self-propelled artillery. In particular, the Caesar howitzer of the French company Nexter, which is installed on a 6x6 or 8x8 wheeled chassis, was delivered to France and Denmark, which ordered four more systems in October 2019.

In addition, in the future, it is planned to implement projects on several more self-propelled systems, both tracked and wheeled. The largest of these projects is considered the British Mobile Fires Platform program. The new platform will replace the outdated AS90 howitzers, it will be armed with a 155 mm cannon with a 52 caliber barrel, which will provide a range of at least 40 km. In total, the British army needs 135 platforms, at the moment the initial readiness for combat use is planned for 2026.


Forecast of the dynamics of the European market for self-propelled artillery systems in the coming decade

Belgium and the Netherlands also want to acquire new 155mm self-propelled platforms in the long term. In turn, the Czech Republic wants to buy a 155-mm gun based on the Tatra 8x8 chassis in order to replace the remaining Dana platforms. The Dana howitzer is known for being one of the few wheel systems produced during the Cold War. The production of up to 168 self-propelled guns of 155 mm caliber on the basis of a Polish truck chassis is envisaged by the local Kryl program, but there has been no significant progress since its launch.

Empowerment


According to some forecasts, the volume of the Asia-Pacific market for the entire period under review will amount to about 7,4 billion dollars, which is 29% of the total world spending on self-propelled platforms. The owners of the largest fleets in the region, China and North Korea, have a significant number of self-propelled systems in service, which is a serious incentive for other military to develop their own artillery arsenals.

In those military organizations that have the largest budgets and the most powerful defense industry, self-propelled tracked platforms will retain their leading positions. In addition to Europe, the K9 Thunder platform has succeeded here, taking a large market share. It is manufactured under license in India by the local company Larsen & Toubro, as well as by South Korea for the army of their country. The K9 Thunder howitzers will also enter service with the Australian Army under the Land 8112 program.

Although in the Asia-Pacific region there is a growing demand for self-propelled artillery systems based on wheeled chassis, they are usually purchased in small quantities by the poor countries of Southeast Asia and, as a result, almost 75% of the market is still accounted for by tracked platforms.

It is possible that India expects to acquire more than 300 K9 Thunder howitzers after the delivery of the first batch of 100 vehicles. Unlike many Indian arms purchases, this program went relatively smoothly with no delays, indicating the lower risks associated with it.

If these plans are implemented in India, the share of expenditures on tracked systems could amount to 73% of all APR expenditures on self-propelled platforms.

However, the market for wheel systems is also booming. These systems have proven particularly popular in Southeast Asia, where their lower cost and easier airlift across islands make them more localized than their tracked cousins.


With many of the militarily strong countries in the Asia-Pacific region already launching programs to modernize their fleet of self-propelled platforms, market size is predicted to peak in 2024, followed by a sharp decline almost immediately in 2027. associated with the completion of these programs

Two programs only reinforce this trend - the local assembly of the Autonomous Truck-Mounted Howitzer System (ATMOS) of the Israeli company Elbit in Thailand and the purchase of the ubiquitous Caesar platforms by the Indonesian army. It is expected that in both of these cases, in order to replace the outdated towed guns, the maximum number of systems will be ordered. The Philippines also has a need for 12 ATMOS platforms on a 6x6 chassis.

Some countries, armed with tracked systems, do not abandon wheeled platforms, thereby expanding the range of tasks performed by their armed forces. For example, the Japanese and Korean armies are developing and adopting wheeled SGs to equip their rapid reaction forces.

Increased caliber


Despite the fact that the militaries of the countries of the Middle East are not very willing to share information about their needs and planned programs, there are a significant number of end-of-life platforms that will need to be replaced or upgraded in order to remain competitive.

The most common system is the M109 platform of the British company BAE Systems, of which there are a total of 652 in countries such as Bahrain, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. Since all variants of this howitzer are armed with the original 39 caliber barrel, they have significantly lower range compared to the next generation self-propelled systems.


In terms of cost and volume, most of the currently contracted SPGs are tracked, although the purchase of various wheeled platforms indicates a growing interest in them.

Such an established customer base, coupled with the strong geopolitical influence of the United States in the region, could turn BAE Systems into a major player in this market with its M109A7 Paladin howitzer with a longer 58 caliber barrel. However, the regional military also showed a willingness to buy new systems from other suppliers, for example, Saudi Arabia bought 132 Caesar wheeled howitzers, and 24 PzH 2000 tracked platforms were delivered to Qatar.

Intended trajectory


The nature of the self-propelled howitzer sector in these four regions determines the future trajectory of the market. In all of these regions, the purchase of new artillery systems is seen as an urgent priority by most military organizations, which will lead to the largest expenditures in the first half of the decade under review.

More expensive and heavier tracked platforms will continue to consume most of the funding, while the combination of cost and strategic mobility has opened up new avenues for wheeled solutions. While for some armies, wheeled chassis solutions are the only realistic option for replacing existing towed systems, armed forces with large budgets regard them as a useful addition to tracked platforms that offer greater deployment flexibility.

As towed artillery becomes more and more vulnerable, the demand for self-propelled wheeled systems will only grow in the future.
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  1. kashcheevo egg
    kashcheevo egg 18 September 2020 18: 05
    +5
    Very good overview. The market is transforming on the eve of a big mess good )))
    1. Lexus
      Lexus 18 September 2020 20: 31
      11
      Very good review.

      But the “news” itself is not very good - China is in first place in terms of exports, while Russia has a confident “zero”.
  2. Mouse
    Mouse 18 September 2020 18: 12
    +2
    So ... measuring with pipis ...
    Demonstration of trunks and desires:

    Leads to an arms race .... yes
    1. Viktor Sergeev
      Viktor Sergeev 18 September 2020 19: 56
      +4
      The arms race led to the development of mankind in terms of technology, this is the essence of man.
    2. Alf
      Alf 18 September 2020 20: 55
      +4
      Quote: Mouse
      So ... measuring with pipis ...
      Demonstration of trunks and desires:

      Leads to an arms race .... yes

      And this race never stopped.
  3. fn34440
    fn34440 18 September 2020 18: 26
    -2
    And what's wrong with our new 2S35 is made on the chassis of the T-90 tank. The main armament is the 152-mm 2A88 gun. The projectile is sent into the barrel bore using a pneumatic loading mechanism. The rate of fire is classified, it is only known that this figure is more than ten rounds per minute. The transportable ammunition load of 70 rounds includes high-explosive fragmentation and guided ammunition based on the Krasnopol round. The maximum firing range is 80 kilometers (guided ammunition). The crew is three people. The ACS is equipped with a system of automated gun guidance, target selection, navigation and positioning. In terms of tactical and technical characteristics, the 2S35 is significantly superior to any foreign counterparts.
    This is "Coalition-SV". And we put it with the device ............ And there is also "Msta-S", "" Carnation ".........
    1. SovAr238A
      SovAr238A 18 September 2020 20: 25
      +5
      Quote: fn34440
      The maximum firing range is 80 kilometers (guided ammunition).


      Where did you get the figure of 80 km?
      Have you added yourself?
      even if all the parrots from the press services of the Ministry of Defense and the military-industrial complex said only 70 ...
      And not confirmed by anything.
      1. Mikhail Ya2
        Mikhail Ya2 19 September 2020 08: 54
        +2
        With each commentator, this figure increases, soon and for 100 km will shoot ... with blanks lol
    2. Passing
      Passing 19 September 2020 10: 13
      +1
      From the point of view of export, Kaolitsia has a dubious potential, it does not have a fundamental superiority over Western systems, but it has a fundamental flaw - it is Soviet, i.e. a rare, projectile caliber and a completely new propellant charge, which is absent even in our troops, in the sense that there are no reserves, no mass production. Those. from the point of view of a foreign consumer, this is an extremely unreliable option. It is not known how large-scale the production of the new format of ammunition will be, and how much Russia will be able to guarantee their deliveries despite the hypothetical blockade. It is much safer for them to buy a NATO-standard system, and no problems with ammunition, take them from anywhere in the world.
      1. Simargl
        Simargl 19 September 2020 21: 04
        0
        Quote: Passing by
        hers is Soviet, i.e. rare, projectile caliber and completely new propellant charge
        It will be said in secret ... Krasnopol is both 152 and 155 mm. The last one the Indians buy. And ... 152 mm shell is "thicker" than 155 tongue
        1. DDZ57
          DDZ57 20 September 2020 03: 41
          -1
          Quote: Simargl
          Quote: Passing by
          hers is Soviet, i.e. rare, projectile caliber and completely new propellant charge
          It will be said in secret ... Krasnopol is both 152 and 155 mm. The last one the Indians buy. And ... 152 mm shell is "thicker" than 155 tongue

          Full compliance with the verbiage of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation, RT, zombie channels and "blizzard" (you know who).
          Meli Emelya, your week:
          Caliber 152,4mm - CU diameter - about 152,2mm, VP diameter - approx. 155,8mm.
          Caliber 155mm - CU diameter - approx. 154,7mm, VP diameter - approx. 157,9mm.
          1. Simargl
            Simargl 20 September 2020 03: 46
            0
            Quote: DDZ57
            Meli Emelya, your week:
            Where is this data? In the drawings, 152 mm is 151 mm in the CU. 155mm - 149mm
            1. DDZ57
              DDZ57 20 September 2020 04: 52
              0
              Everyone has their own blueprints and brains. You have your opinion, I have mine. Who is right - time will tell.
              A simple way out of this situation is to ask the students of Baumanka or Voenmech (course from 3), they already know about the diameters and will immediately answer you. This is not classified information. Well, in my school I was taught that the number 155mm is always greater than the number 152,4mm.
              1. Simargl
                Simargl 20 September 2020 07: 44
                0
                Quote: DDZ57
                and in my school I was taught that 155mm is always greater than 152,4mm.
                laughing That's it!!! The problem is that the bourgeoisie is measured by the grooves (depressions), and we - by the fields (protrusions). True, not always In this caliber - the difference is about 2,8-6 mm. tongue
                For example, with a caliber of 9x18, the bullet diameter is 9,2 mm, 7,62x39 - 7,92 mm.
                1. Passing
                  Passing 20 September 2020 11: 02
                  +1
                  Quote: Simargl
                  bourgeois measure by grooves (depressions), and we - by fields (protrusions)

                  I recommend checking the "well-known facts" more often and with your own hands, too often they are far from reality. This formula is also meaningless, because it is only half correct.
                  Our standard measured by fields:
                  5,45 × 39, bullet diameter 5,62 mm
                  7,62 × 38 Nagant, bullet diameter 7,79-7,82 mm
                  7,62 × 25 TT, bullet diameter 7,85 mm
                  7,62 × 39, bullet diameter 7,92 mm
                  7,62 × 54, bullet diameter 7,9-0,05 mm
                  9 × 18, bullet diameter 9,27 mm
                  The caliber in the fields should be less than the real diameter of the bullet, which is what we observe, i.e. in our country, the caliber is measured strictly by the fields.
                  The western standard is supposedly measured only in grooves:
                  5,56 × 45, bullet diameter 5,7 mm
                  .223 Remington (5,6642 mm), bullet diameter 5,7 mm
                  6.8 × 43, bullet diameter 7,0 mm
                  7,62 × 51, bullet diameter 7,82 mm
                  .308 Winchester, 7,82mm bullet diameter
                  .338 Lapua Magnum (8,58 × 70), 8,58mm bullet diameter
                  9 × 19, bullet diameter 9,01 mm
                  .38 S&W (9,2 x 19,7), 9,2 mm bullet diameter
                  .408 Chey Tac (10,36 x 77) 10,36 mm bullet diameter
                  .45 ACP (11,43 × 23), 11,48mm bullet diameter
                  12,7 × 99, bullet diameter 13,0 mm
                  .50 BMG, bullet diameter 13,0 mm
                  The caliber of Western cartridges is measured both by grooves and by fields, who is in what way, as the developer / customer decided, and appointed.
                  It cannot even be argued that when the caliber is recorded in the American system, in hundredths of an inch, such as .45, then the caliber is measured by rifling, because the same .50 BMG is clearly measured by fields. Conversely, the European record of the 9 × 19 type does not automatically mean that the measurement takes place in the fields, because this cartridge has a clearly groove caliber.
                2. DDZ57
                  DDZ57 20 September 2020 11: 17
                  0
                  That's it!!! The problem is that the bourgeoisie is measured by the grooves (depressions), and we - by the fields (protrusions). True, not always In this caliber - the difference is about 2,8-6 mm.


                  I do not know who we are (I am not included in this number) and I do not know what you measure and how you measure and where you measure, etc.
                  And I don't know who the bourgeoisie are and what and how they measure how.

                  But I know that the caliber of artillery pieces is the size of the barrel along the rifling field, and no matter how you measure it (twist, twist) it will be the same (if you measure it correctly, twist, twist, etc.).
                  If we are talking about the size of the projectile in terms of the diameter of the control center, then it differs by the size of the landing (with a guaranteed clearance, i.e. in the minus) from the size of the barrel along the rifling field, i.e. barrel caliber.
                  The size of the barrel along the groove field for caliber 152,4mm - 152,4mm + manufacturing tolerance, for calories 155mm - 155mm + manufacturing tolerance, if we are talking about the size of the barrel along the bottom of the groove, add the depth of the groove to the size along the groove field, which for Howitzers (Msta) less, for cannons (Hyacinth) more.
  4. Postum
    Postum 18 September 2020 18: 40
    +5
    Korean K9 is truly a bestseller in the global market
    1. fn34440
      fn34440 18 September 2020 18: 53
      -5
      "Korean K9 is really a bestseller on the world market" The Korean opponent-K-9 has not yet "shone" in combat campaigns, he only "smelled" gunpowder smoke at international exhibitions. In 2004, Turkey, without bargaining, "dumped" a billion for a license to produce their own "nines". On Turkish soil, they were given the name T-155 Firtina ("Storm"). Turks are shameful plagiarists no worse than the Chinese.
      In vain we sold them the S-400, although they drove out our specialists and now they cannot adapt these S-400s to their air defense system.
      1. Postum
        Postum 18 September 2020 18: 57
        +3
        It is strange to say that he did not smell gunpowder, at least "smelled" in Syria and India. And in general, a very strange characteristic of technology by whether it "smelled" gunpowder or not. Maybe before you write that the Turks are plagiarists, familiarize yourself with what plagiarism is?
        Where did you get the information that the specialists were expelled and that they cannot adapt it, OBS?
        1. fn34440
          fn34440 18 September 2020 19: 06
          -2
          "Where did you get the information that the specialists were expelled and that they cannot adapt it, OBS?"

          Morning Arab newspapers: The head of the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs confirmed the fact that the S-400 complexes acquired from Russia have not yet been adopted by the country, however, as it turned out, this is due to the problem identified by the Turkish military, which Turkey cannot already solve about six months.

          Against the background of the fact that earlier Turkey openly expelled the Russian military from its territory, not allowing them to adjust the operation of the systems of the S-400 complex, it turned out that the Turkish military had neither experience nor knowledge in deploying Russian complexes. At the moment, it is absolutely impossible to do without the involvement of Russia, however, Ankara and Turkey's NATO partners believe that Russian specialists can make some changes to the systems of the complex, which will negatively affect the North Atlantic Alliance.
          More details at: https://avia.pro/news/istochnik-u-turcii-poyavilas-problema-s-rossiyskimi-s-400
          1. Postum
            Postum 18 September 2020 20: 08
            +4
            Avia pro, what else will you refer to Panorama?
      2. vadim dok
        vadim dok 19 September 2020 14: 37
        +3
        Why is Turkey a plagiarist and even a shameful one? She BOUGHT a license for $ 1 billion! A plagiarist is a thief who stole someone else's property and calls it his own!
  5. SovAr238A
    SovAr238A 18 September 2020 20: 24
    +4
    I don't quite understand the author of the article ...
    And his outright rigging and lies ...
    Quote from the author:
    However, the 155 mm / 39 klb cannon, currently integrated into the M109A7 platform, can hit targets at a distance of no more than 30 km, which is seriously inferior to the range of Russian new generation platforms.


    It is strange that the author writing about the trunks does not know that:
    Our MSTA-S reaches a firing range of 30 km with only a single shot (the maximum charge and gas generator in the projectile) with a barrel length of 47 calibers ...
    Those. are they in no way inferior to what we have using a much shorter barrel?
    And now they will put barrels in 58 calibers ...


    Moving on.
    Barrels with a length of 52 caliber (as in the Coalition-SV) began to appear in our enemies at the very beginning of the 2000s ...
    The firing range of active rockets began to reach 70-75 km.

    And we have?
    And we still have zero on a stick.
    Until now, the only active-reactive one is: 152-MM SHOT 3VOF91 WITH FRAGMENTAL-FUGASY projectile 3OF61 WITH BOTTOM GAS GENERATOR AND LONG-RUNNING CHARGE.
    With a firing range on the 47-caliber MSTE-S - 29 kilometers.
    And all ...
    Well, if you increase the barrel length by 5 calibers - how much will the range increase with such a projectile?
    3-4 kilometers?
    Where did the 70 come from?
    Yes, the usual lies of our military-industrial complex - just blurt out what would be the same as the enemy.
    And there it really is - do not care.
    People - hawala.
    Carbon monoxide - shoots plots.
    Urya urya ...
    From all sides...

    I remember the news 5 years ago on this website that in 2016 the first ACS 2S35 "Coalition-SV" will go into service with the ZVO.
    But ...
    except for the show-parade 12 pieces, nothing was produced and nothing was entered into service in the troops ...

    So even in artillery ...
    1. DDZ57
      DDZ57 19 September 2020 05: 11
      +5
      Add.
      The backwardness of the USSR, and now the Russian Federation, in barrel artillery was laid in the 70s of the last century.
      The USSR, like the USA and large European countries, ignored the work of J. Bull. But some small countries took notice of them. Earlier it was written:
      "During the Yom Kippur War on October 6, 1973, the IDF first used howitzers with a barrel length of 45klb / 19l, which provided a firing range of more than 40 km, at their positions they had meteorological and ballistic stations with Doppler radar and surveyors. Let the artillerymen inform you. As a result, taking into account the fact that the calculations are well-coordinated, we have fully mastered the instrumentation and at the test sites it was all rolled.
      In 1977. Armscor (South Africa) received the technology for improving artillery guns and making long-range shots for them. A year and a half later, Soviet advisers and Cuban fighters in Angola were very surprised when it became very difficult to use the BM-21, because if they did not manage to escape immediately after the volley, then the position was covered with some kind of tailed shells. "
      After that, Austria, China, Iraq, etc. joined this work. A little later Germany.
      Rheinmetall and Denel publicly demonstrated their results in 155mm caliber in November 2019. in South Africa.
      RF began work in this direction in 2000, but in the size of 152,4 mm.
      In the foreign market, this caliber is not needed by anyone, only for free.
      For more than 15 years, samples have been produced only for parades, for the ARMY, and they gave something for military tests.
      Serial plant (Sterlitomak), where Msta-S was made in ruins.
      There is no shell plant in the Russian Federation where you can make a large batch.
      In the Russian Federation there is no serial guided projectile with INS and SNS.
      The controlled Krasnopol works for a maximum of 30 km, but it needs backlighting. For some reason, there is no queue of people wishing to sign up for death row. Rogozin promised to equip Iskander with LPAGSN, but for some reason he did not give his son to the special forces in the spotlights.
      About the range in the caliber 152mm in 80 km - Goebbels in his fabrications at one time was more modest.
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 19 September 2020 09: 57
      -1
      Quote: SovAr238A
      Our MSTA-S reaches a firing range of 30 km with only a single shot (the maximum charge and gas generator in the projectile) with a barrel length of 47 calibers ...
      Those. are they in no way inferior to what we have using a much shorter barrel?

      Ours shoot a shell with a gas generator. Americans have active-jet

      Quote: SovAr238A
      Until now, the only active-reactive one is: 152-MM SHOT 3VOF91 WITH FRAGMENTAL-FUGASY projectile 3OF61 WITH BOTTOM GAS GENERATOR AND LONG-RUNNING CHARGE.

      Actually, "active-jet" and "projectile with a bottom gas generator" are completely different ammunition.

      ARS uses a powder jet engine, which additionally accelerates the projectile on a relatively small active section of the trajectory.
      A projectile with a bottom gas generator uses a small powder bunker, which, along the entire trajectory, feeds combustion products into a rarefied area behind the bottom of the projectile. To reduce the "bottom effect"

      Quote: SovAr238A
      With a firing range on the 47-caliber MSTE-S - 29 kilometers.
      And all ...
      Well, if you increase the barrel length by 5 calibers - how much will the range increase with such a projectile?
      3-4 kilometers?

      So expert ...
      laughing laughing laughing

      2S35 by default cannot use shots from 2S19
      1. DDZ57
        DDZ57 19 September 2020 11: 00
        +1
        2S35 by default cannot use shots from 2S19

        By default, the 2S35 can use shells from 2S19, but not at maximum charge.
        But 2S19 by default cannot use shells from 2S35, tk. they are longer.
        Their propelling charges are not interchangeable.
        Americans have active-jet
        .
        West, USA, China, etc. as a projectile with an increased firing range, an active-reactive projectile with a bottom gas generator (i.e. tandem or duplex) is used.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 19 September 2020 11: 15
          0
          Quote: DDZ57
          By default, the 2S35 can use shells from 2S19, but not at maximum charge.

          laughing
          I would like to see the fascinating process of driving a sleeve into a chamber intended for charging modules ... laughing laughing laughing
          Well, okay, you can grind off the welt with a rasp at the sleeve.
          But how to initiate, since the 2C35 does not have a drummer?

          Quote: DDZ57
          West, USA, China, etc. used as a projectile with an increased firing range - active-reactive with a bottom gas generator

          Active-jet is always uneven thrust. Both because of the gunpowder itself and because of the eccentricity. This means a significantly increased range dispersion.

          We even decided to leave the bottom gas generator, to improve accuracy, preferring to use a bottom skirt that performs the same function.

          And at long ranges we had to work with MLRS. With an accuracy comparable to that of ARS.
          1. DDZ57
            DDZ57 19 September 2020 11: 19
            0
            By default, the 2S35 can use shells from 2S19, but not at maximum charge.
            laughing
            I would like to see the fascinating process of driving a cartridge case into a chamber intended for charging modules .... laughing laughing laughing
            Well, okay, you can grind off the welt with a rasp at the sleeve.
            But how to initiate, since the 2C35 does not have a drummer?

            You can't even read the full commentary.
            I have written that they have different propelling charges.
            Are you an artilleryman?
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 19 September 2020 11: 28
              0
              Quote: DDZ57
              I have written that they have different propelling charges.

              Everything is different there. Another projectile, another charge with a different initiation method, other fuses with only remote insertion of installations.

              Trying to "screw" shells from 2a65 to 2S35 ... Well, we don't have huge stocks of them for this to make sense.
              Rather, it is necessary, on the contrary, to try to "make friends" the shells of the "Coalition" with older models of 152-mm howitzers. To make life easier for RAVists
              1. DDZ57
                DDZ57 19 September 2020 11: 42
                +1
                Quote: Spade
                Quote: DDZ57
                I have written that they have different propelling charges.

                Everything is different there. Another projectile, another charge with a different initiation method, other fuses with only remote insertion of installations.

                Trying to "screw" shells from 2a65 to 2S35 ... Well, we don't have huge stocks of them for this to make sense.
                Rather, it is necessary, on the contrary, to try to "make friends" the shells of the "Coalition" with older models of 152-mm howitzers. To make life easier for RAVists


                Msta has a shorter projectile, it can be launched from the Coalition to MZ from the Coalition, but not at the maximum modules, the Coalition has a projectile longer than Msta, and another VP, it will not fly from Msta.
                It will not be possible to "make friends" the shells of the "Coalition" with the older samples of 152-mm howitzers, in order to fly further they must be longer, and this already rests on the step of the rifling.
                If there are no gigantic reserves, then the logic of the 152-caliber MO is incomprehensible. On the new system, it was necessary to switch to 155 calories in order not to lose the external market. And support old systems by developing a new caliber. This is what China is doing. For large-caliber artillery, he completely displaces the Russian Federation.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 19 September 2020 11: 54
                  0
                  Quote: DDZ57
                  Msta has a shorter projectile, it can be launched from the Coalition to MZ from the Coalition, but not at the maximum modules, the Coalition has a projectile longer than Msta, and another VP, it will not fly from Msta.

                  Thresh ... laughing laughing laughing
                  The length of the 3OF39 was 1.3 meters. And from 2C19 they were used. True, I had to charge manually

                  Quote: DDZ57
                  This is what China is doing.

                  ???????
                  China was forced to "do this", having quarreled with the USSR and received Western technologies
                  1. DDZ57
                    DDZ57 19 September 2020 16: 58
                    -1
                    The length of the 3OF39 was 1.3 meters. And from 2C19 they were used. True, I had to charge manually
                    .
                    3OF39 is stabilized by the tail unit, it has a rotating leading belt.
                    Do not confuse the long with the fat.
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 20 September 2020 10: 40
                      -1
                      Quote: DDZ57
                      3OF39 is stabilized by the tail unit, it has a rotating leading belt.

                      So, what is next?
                      There is a leading belt, a projectile with a length of 1300. More stupid statements?
                      1. DDZ57
                        DDZ57 20 September 2020 11: 33
                        -1
                        Quote: DDZ57
                        3OF39 is stabilized by the tail unit, it has a rotating leading belt.
                        So, what is next?
                        There is a leading belt, a projectile with a length of 1300. More stupid statements?


                        So stupid (moronic) statements you have.

                        A conventional rifled howitzer projectile is stabilized in flight by rotation (due to the gyroscopic effect). As a result, its length is limited. In this case, the leading belt, in addition to imparting rotation to the body, also provides obturation of the steam generator.
                        The 3OF39 projectile is stabilized by the tail unit, i.e. an aerodynamic method of projectile stabilization was applied. Its leading belt is rotatable, its main task is to ensure the obturation of the steam generator, and not to transfer rotation.
                      2. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 20 September 2020 16: 06
                        0
                        Quote: DDZ57
                        So stupid (moronic) statements you have.

                        Have you seen the shell at least in the picture?

                        Here's a shell for "Msta"

                        Here is the Coalition's shell


                        It would be enough just to look at the pictures to understand that the leading belt is at approximately the same distance from the lower edge of the "skirt".
                        And therefore, it can NOT be an obstacle to loading the Coalition's projectile into the Msta barrel.
                      3. DDZ57
                        DDZ57 21 September 2020 04: 29
                        0
                        And therefore, it can NOT be an obstacle to loading the Coalition's projectile into the Msta barrel.

                        The projectile from the Coalition is longer, it has a larger mass, it has a different airspace design, the Coalition has a steeper thread, and the gas pressure is different.
                        There are no obstacles to loading the Coalition's projectile into the Msta's barrel, but Msta may have problems when they try to shoot the Coalition's projectile from it. This is about the same as the manipulation of Msta and Hyacinth shells.
                        It is quite possible to shoot with a small charge, but I am not sure whether the fuse will be cocked. And there are more questions.
                        And what happened to the 3mm long 39OF1300, which has a leading belt and why you need to look at the pictures to understand that the leading belt of these shells is at approximately the same distance from the lower cut of the "skirt".
                        I saw enough shells in due time, tk. our plant produced them in a million copies (AC and RS).
                      4. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 23 September 2020 11: 13
                        0
                        Quote: DDZ57
                        The projectile from the Coalition is longer, it has a larger mass, it has a different airspace design, the Coalition has a steeper thread, and the gas pressure is different.

                        That is, the leading belt has nothing to do with it?
                        This pleases.


                        Quote: DDZ57
                        but but Msta may have problems

                        No problem.
                        You just need your own charge.


                        Quote: DDZ57
                        It is quite possible to shoot with a small charge, but I am not sure if the fuse will be cocked.

                        laughing laughing laughing
                        Material: !!!!!

                        Quote: DDZ57
                        And what happened to 3OF39 1300mm long

                        They refuse him. For it can only be charged manually, into a fur. do not put the ammo rack. Well, collecting it inside the tower is inconvenient.

                        However, it is possible to shoot such a long projectile of their 2S19. And no belts interfere with this.
                      5. DDZ57
                        DDZ57 23 September 2020 11: 32
                        0
                        However, it is possible to shoot such a long projectile of their 2S19. And no belts interfere with this.

                        It is long because it has stabilization by feathers, not rotation.
                        Whether it comes to you or not.
                        I have already said this several times.
                      6. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 23 September 2020 11: 42
                        0
                        Quote: DDZ57
                        It is long because it has feather stabilization,

                        And what does "feather stabilization" have to do with
                        Is it longer, and therefore you can't put it in 2C19?
                      7. DDZ57
                        DDZ57 23 September 2020 12: 54
                        0
                        And what does "feather stabilization" have to do with
                        Is it longer, and therefore you can't put it in 2C19?


                        I did not say that it cannot be put into 2C19.
                        It follows from my words that for one caliber, the rotation stabilized projectile will always be shorter than the rotation stabilized projectile.
                        To increase the firing range of the Coalition, it was necessary to increase the length of the projectile and increase the pressure of the SG, this pulled a wider (strong lead. Belt) behind it. If you shoot from Msta with a long rotating projectile, then the barrel will not screw it up (there will be an oval or a large iron in the target), where it is not clear where it will fly, problems with the fuse, a more durable VP is an uncontrolled increase in pressure.
                      8. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 23 September 2020 13: 16
                        0
                        Quote: DDZ57
                        I did not say that it cannot be put into 2C19.

                        Again we come to the conclusion that you do not read well.

                        It was initially about the fact that a much more adequate solution would be to teach the 2S19 to use the 2S35 shells. And not vice versa. Accordingly, with different charges.

                        And you started telling tales about the fact that it is impossible "because the 2C35 shells are longer." And then they managed to weave a leading belt to this, which is generally not on any side.
                      9. DDZ57
                        DDZ57 23 September 2020 16: 53
                        0
                        It was initially about the fact that a much more adequate solution would be to teach the 2S19 to use the 2S35 shells. And not vice versa. Accordingly, with different charges.
                        And you started telling tales about the fact that it is impossible "because the 2C35 shells are longer." And then they managed to weave a leading belt to this, which is generally not on any side.


                        The longer one will not be stabilized from the Msta shaft, because there are shallower cuts.
                        And where is the leading belt? With that, try to shove a projectile from the Hyacinth into Mstu and fire a shot even at a minimum charge. The effect will be similar.
                      10. DDZ57
                        DDZ57 24 September 2020 04: 46
                        0
                        With that, try to shove a projectile from the Hyacinth into Mstu and fire a shot even at a minimum charge. The effect will be similar


                        I wrote it myself, but I myself became interested in the answer to the question of whether the projectile from Hyacinth will enter the Msta charging chamber. Because I know what will happen to the howitzer with this procedure.
                        It was not necessary to work with shells from Hyacinth.
                        Does Msta have protection against this.
                  2. DDZ57
                    DDZ57 23 September 2020 17: 55
                    0
                    It follows from my words that for one caliber, a projectile stabilized in flight by its tail feathers can be longer than a projectile stabilized by rotation.
                    Corrected. Something like this.
  • DDZ57
    DDZ57 20 September 2020 03: 47
    0
    ???????
    China was forced to "do this", having quarreled with the USSR and received Western technologies

    This is how to understand, it is good for China and bad for the Russian Federation, or "vice versa."
    He quarreled with the USSR, overtook the Russian Federation in barrel artillery and not only and drove the Russian Federation out of traditional markets (for artillery and not only) in Asia and Africa.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 20 September 2020 10: 49
      0
      Quote: DDZ57
      This is how to understand, it is good for China and bad for the Russian Federation, or "vice versa."

      But what about China and Russia what I drank coffee for breakfast today? That's right, no way.
      1. DDZ57
        DDZ57 20 September 2020 12: 01
        0
        Quote: DDZ57
        This is how to understand, it is good for China and bad for the Russian Federation, or "vice versa."
        But what about China and Russia what I drank coffee for breakfast today? That's right, no way.

        For you, no way, but for me it's like.
        There was a comment above about the level of your statements.

        By selling a high-tech product (with high added value), China develops its industry and science (conventionally flies into space), ensuring the future of its people.
        And the Russian Federation, by adding another layer of paint to old Soviet equipment, selling raw materials over the hill, fooling around with another cartoon, lowers the bulk of the population into the overflowing pit of an old street cesspool.
      2. Lopatov
        Lopatov 20 September 2020 16: 08
        -1
        Quote: DDZ57
        And the Russian Federation by adding another layer of paint to the old Soviet technique

        Well, yes, the "Coalition" is definitely a "coat of paint" ...
        Bomb?
      3. DDZ57
        DDZ57 21 September 2020 03: 57
        0
        Well, yes, the "Coalition" is definitely a "coat of paint" ...
        Bomb?

        How many coalitions did Rosoboronexporot sell?
        The number of paint layers increases on equipment located on the territory of the Russian Federation, because its "modernization potential" is unlimited, since new does not work.
      4. Lopatov
        Lopatov 23 September 2020 11: 19
        0
        Quote: DDZ57
        How many coalitions did Rosoboronexporot sell?

        E .....
        Why sell?
        The military-industrial complex of any country must work primarily to meet the needs of its own army. We are not Ukrainians, who removed the air defense systems from combat duty in order to sell them right there ... The Yeltsin "democratic" times are over.

        Well, from the fact that the "Coalition", a new generation self-propelled guns appeared in Russia, you are definitely being bombed ....
        By the way, when the "Coalitions" go to the troops, Russia will be the second country in the world to have this generation of self-propelled guns in service. After Sweden.
        And I'm afraid this fact will bomb you even more. laughing
      5. DDZ57
        DDZ57 23 September 2020 11: 27
        0
        Be.
        Khrushchov also promised.
      6. Lopatov
        Lopatov 23 September 2020 11: 41
        -1
        Already now, with the number of these ACS available, we are in second place in the world.
      7. DDZ57
        DDZ57 23 September 2020 13: 07
        0
        That have old ammunition. The only plant in a pre-bankruptcy state. And who of the young will go to the regional center to work? Information is available on the Internet.

        Already now, with the number of these ACS available, we are in second place in the world.

        How to count it?
        Turkey has Fortun more than 300 pieces, which are equipped with shops.
      8. Lopatov
        Lopatov 23 September 2020 13: 08
        -1
        Quote: DDZ57
        Turkey has Fortun

        Hello, we’ve arrived.
        And who told you that Turkish self-propelled guns have fully automatic loading and an unmanned turret?

        They are the same generation as the 2C19
      9. DDZ57
        DDZ57 23 September 2020 16: 43
        0
        The projectile is fed into the breech and discharged automatically, propelling charges in conventional caps or modern modular types are stacked manually.
    2. DDZ57
      DDZ57 23 September 2020 14: 20
      0
      Shops on tracks, i.e. TZM.
  • DDZ57
    DDZ57 23 September 2020 11: 42
    0
    How many coalitions did Rosoboronexporot sell?
    E .....
    Why sell?
    The military-industrial complex of any country must work primarily to meet the needs of its own army. We are not Ukrainians, who removed air defense systems from combat duty in order to sell them right there ...


    Here is E .....
    Why sell? Yes, so that people who work at the plant could eat.
    Uralvagonzavod survived due to the Indian order,
    plant them. Gagarin because of India and China, KBP made the Armor with the money of the UAE and there are many more examples.

    The Yeltsin "democratic" times are over.

    And which ones started?
    Well, from the fact that the "Coalition", a new generation self-propelled guns appeared in Russia, you are definitely being bombed ....
    And I'm afraid this fact will bomb you even more.

    It doesn't bomb me.
    By the way, when the "Coalitions" go to the troops, Russia will be the second country in the world to have this generation of self-propelled guns in service. After Sweden.

    And when will the "Coalitions" go to the troops?
    Russia will be the second country in the world in terms of corruption, poverty and the first in the number of street cesspools per capita.
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 23 September 2020 11: 46
    -1
    Quote: DDZ57
    Yes, so that people who work at the plant could eat.

    And they have nothing to eat now?


    Quote: DDZ57
    It doesn't bomb me.

    It bombs.

    Quote: DDZ57

    And when will the "Coalitions" go to the troops?

    They are already there.

    Quote: DDZ57
    Russia will be the second country in the world in terms of corruption, poverty and the first in the number of street cesspools per capita.

    After the USA?
    And, sorry, there is no corruption in the USA. There is exclusively quite legal "lobbying of interests"
    laughing
  • DDZ57
    DDZ57 23 September 2020 14: 18
    0
    And when will the "Coalitions" go to the troops?
    They are already there.


    Piece products.
    How many years will we catch up with Turkey?

    Russia will be the second country in the world in terms of corruption, poverty and the first in the number of street cesspools per capita.
    After the USA?
    And, sorry, there is no corruption in the USA. There is exclusively quite legal "lobbying of interests"


    In the states, the seized money was never taken out by cars.
    In the states, the deputy is not in prison. early General Staff with accomplices. The states do not hear about the arrests of military representatives for bribes and more.
    In the states, I have not seen dilapidated village houses, roads without asphalt, as in the regional centers of the Russian Federation, a track on an asphalt surface.
    In the states on the products the price tags on which everything is spelled out. You choose the product yourself. which you can afford, etc.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 23 September 2020 13: 11
    -1
    Quote: DDZ57
    Why sell? Yes, so that people who work at the plant could eat.
    Uralvagonzavod survived due to the Indian order,
    plant them. Gagarin because of India and China, KBP made the Armor with the money of the UAE and there are many more examples.

    Is it possible to sell only for export? Are orders of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation not a sale?
    Or do you think that our Ministry of Defense receives equipment without paying the manufacturer - simply by sending soldiers and withdrawing everything they like? wink
    Quote: DDZ57
    And when will the "Coalitions" go to the troops?
    Russia will be the second country in the world in terms of corruption, poverty and the first in the number of street cesspools per capita.

  • DDZ57
    DDZ57 23 September 2020 16: 56
    0
    If you serve in the RA, then "Zabaikalsky Healer" will help you.
  • DDZ57
    DDZ57 23 September 2020 17: 38
    0
    Is it possible to sell only for export? Are orders of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation not a sale?
    Or do you think that our Ministry of Defense receives equipment without paying the manufacturer - simply by sending soldiers and withdrawing everything they like?


    Orders of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation are money. I didn't say the opposite.
    You will ask the RF Ministry of Defense where it was in the 90s and in the 2000s, when the Sterlitomak plant, sibselmash, textilemash and hundreds of other factories were destroyed.
  • DDZ57
    DDZ57 19 September 2020 11: 28
    0
    Quote: Spade


    Quote: DDZ57
    West, USA, China, etc. used as a projectile with an increased firing range - active-reactive with a bottom gas generator

    Active-jet is always uneven thrust. Both because of the gunpowder itself and because of the eccentricity. This means a significantly increased range dispersion.

    We even decided to leave the bottom gas generator, to improve accuracy, preferring to use a bottom skirt that performs the same function.

    And at long ranges we had to work with MLRS. With an accuracy comparable to that of ARS.

    These are the problems with shells produced in the Russian Federation.
    So, on RDM shells in position, in addition to working with the fuse, you can change the DI to DG and vice versa, if the range is not required, then instead of DG or DI you can screw an explosive charge amplifier (if power is needed), they have the concept of "Modular structures".
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 19 September 2020 11: 36
      +1
      Quote: DDZ57
      These are the problems with shells produced in the Russian Federation.

      Exactly ... I forgot ...
      They have a democracy, and things like Probability and Error Theory are easily overturned by a vote in parliament.

      Quote: DDZ57
      So, on RDM shells in position, in addition to working with the fuse, you can change the DI to DG and vice versa, if the range is not required, then instead of DG or DI you can screw an explosive charge amplifier (if power is needed), they have the concept of "Modular structures".

      Great option ....
      For example, "Archer" got a new target. At a great distance.
      The crew got out, unloaded the shells from the self-propelled guns, screwed on the engines, loaded them back, switched the howitzer to combat, learned that the target had disappeared during this time, the crew got out, unloaded the shells from the self-propelled guns, unscrewed the engines, loaded back, transferred the howitzer to the combat ... ...

      An extremely clever method, I approve in every possible way ...

      But by the way, it does not reduce the pore dispersion of the range. Rather the opposite
      1. DDZ57
        DDZ57 19 September 2020 12: 09
        0
        You know that, depending on the system, it is also possible to work in manual mode from the ground and from a given store and in automatic mode. The shells are registered in the store. Depending on the mode of setting the fuse to manual or automatic.
        The problems of firing accuracy are solved by the accuracy of the hull manufacturing, by a smaller spread of the projectile masses, by measuring the initial velocity of the projectile (correction for the next shot), by entering into the ball. computer for barrel and propellant temperature, target and system coordinates, using a more accurate meteorological profile in the firing plane. Now there are radars on guns that, in addition to the initial velocity of the projectile, control the sheaf of trajectories at a certain distance and make adjustments to the initial settings of the barrel with drives.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 19 September 2020 13: 54
          -1
          Quote: DDZ57
          You know that depending on the system, you can also work in manual mode from the ground

          Of the modern, this is only available to the "Coalition"
          Neither Archer, nor Eva, nor the XM1299 can do that.

          Quote: DDZ57
          Now there are radars on guns that, in addition to the initial velocity of the projectile, control the sheaf of trajectories at a certain distance and make adjustments to the initial settings of the barrel with drives.

          laughing
          Only on the "Coalition". laughing
          However, zeroing from the SNAR radar was available back in the middle of the last century, in the USSR since 1951
          And here it is worthwhile to clearly distinguish between errors in determining the settings for shooting (eliminated by zeroing, full preparation and correction of fire to kill) and dispersal

          The radar you named eliminates errors, not scatter.

          But that's not it. The only way to get rid of the dispersion due to the rocket engine is to abandon it. Soviet engineers followed this path. As a result, having come to the "skirt"
          1. DDZ57
            DDZ57 19 September 2020 16: 50
            -1
            Neither Archer, nor Eva, nor the XM1299 can do that.
            .
            Archer has the shells registered in the store. The crew does not need to get out anywhere. The choice of the projectile and the installation of the fuse (flight mission) is recruited before firing (yes, you can even get into the program), then it all goes automatically and leaves the position (with a serious enemy).
            Wheeled T5 (South Africa) works from the store and the manipulator from the body from the body.
            It will be possible to talk about the Coalition when at least a division will be in the troops and at least a small series of shells will be produced at a serial plant.
            30F45 (24,7 km) and and 3OF64 with DV, 3OF61 with DG (29 km) - Soviet engineers.
            Correction along the ascending part of the trajectory according to the radar data available on the ACS (according to the previous projectile) - compress the beam of trajectories (reduce errors) - reduce the dispersion.
            Was in the USSR in 1951? I do not know individual radar, we believe that it was,
            but at present there are no Dopplers on Msta.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 20 September 2020 11: 08
              -1
              Quote: DDZ57
              Archer has the shells registered in the store. The crew doesn't need to get out anywhere

              Is there a small robot sitting inside that will screw on and off the engine?
              laughing
              In short, a modular projectile that has no equivalent in the world is expensive, but useless. For it is intended for use with tools of the previous generation.

              Quote: DDZ57
              It will be possible to talk about the Coalition

              It has long been possible.
              Because "Archerov" are minuscule in the troops, and the rest of the next generation self-propelled guns, whether they are Slovak, German or American, exist in single copies.

              Quote: DDZ57
              compress the bundle of trajectories

              laughing
              Nothing will shrink there.

              Quote: DDZ57
              Was in the USSR in 1951? individual radar

              Why "individual"?
              Educational program: any counter-battery radar is capable of not only detecting weapons. mortars and other enemy OS, but also to service the sighting of their own artillery.

              "Individual radars", so far used all over the world only at the "Coalition" (the SRAMS layout from ST Kinetic does not count, it is only for exhibitions so far)

              There are also "ballistic radars", one for the jet battalion. The idea of ​​which the Israelis stole from the Germans, with their "Lars"
              1. DDZ57
                DDZ57 20 September 2020 16: 05
                -1
                Archer has the shells registered in the store. The crew doesn't need to get out anywhere
                Is there a small robot sitting inside that will screw on and off the engine?
                laughing
                In short, a modular projectile that has no equivalent in the world is expensive, but useless. For it is intended for use with tools of the previous generation.


                Have you heard the term "registration" of ammunition - ask at least who drives the BMP-3.
                It's just that the "robot" sitting in the car knows where which shell lies.

                Quote: DDZ57
                It will be possible to talk about the Coalition
                It has long been possible.
                Because "Archerov" are minuscule in the troops, and the rest of the next generation self-propelled guns, whether they are Slovak, German or American, exist in single copies.


                We have been talking for a long time, but in the troops "Msta", "Akatsiya", etc. in fresh paint.
                [quoteQuote: DDZ57
                Was in the USSR in 1951? individual radar

                Why "individual"?
                Educational program: any counter-battery radar is capable of not only detecting weapons. mortars and other enemy OS, but also to service the sighting of their own artillery.
                "Individual radars", so far used all over the world only at the "Coalition" (the SRAMS layout from ST Kinetic does not count, it is only for exhibitions so far)
                There are also "ballistic radars", one for the jet battalion. The idea of ​​which the Israelis stole from the Germans, with their "Lars"] [/ quote]
                And even the Kazakhs believe that they need an individual radar on the gun.
                MPTK-A automated artillery fire control system for D-30

                .
              2. Lopatov
                Lopatov 20 September 2020 16: 24
                -1
                Quote: DDZ57
                Have you heard the term "registration" of ammunition - ask at least who drives the BMP-3.
                It's just that the "robot" sitting in the car knows where which shell lies.

                This is all, of course, wonderful.
                If you know the future.
                Then you will be able to lay in the ammo rack exactly as many shells and such shells as you need.
                On the fingers: there is an Archer self-propelled gun, 20 rounds in an automated ammunition rack. Two fire missions.
                If you load 10 conventional shells, and 10 with a screwed-on engine, then one of the fire missions must necessarily be at a long range.
                Otherwise, remove, screw, put back.
                Got it now?



                Quote: DDZ57
                And even the Kazakhs believe that they need an individual radar on the gun.
                MPTK-A automated artillery fire control system for D-30

                Uh ...
                Actually, the arrow points not to the "radar", but to the Doppler sensor measuring the deviation of the initial velocity.
                laughing laughing laughing laughing
              3. DDZ57
                DDZ57 20 September 2020 17: 38
                0
                This is all, of course, wonderful.
                If you know the future.
                Then you will be able to lay in the ammo rack exactly as many shells and such shells as you need.

                I do not know the future, but I know the task assigned to me, so I am putting in the ammunition rack the ammunition that I need to solve this task.
                I'll shoot and dump, in the place where the TPM will meet me, or the TPM will intercept me on the way to a new position (Archer's TPM is the same as that of the Coalition, you can comment on who ripped off whom, because I don't know) and load it with a new one ammunition. If I have any of the shells left, I will unload them, and from the TPM I will take the necessary ones to solve a new task. Etc. But this is in the case of a serious and competent opponent.
                And if, like in Afghanistan or in Chechnya, I will stand at the checkpoint and receive the control center in real time.
                TZM and other servants will carry out the delivery of shots, fuels and lubricants, etc. to this place.
                A DG, DV or add. the charge will be screwed on by those who are in the TPM, but for the Russian army, modular ammunition for towed artillery would be very useful in position.
                [quoteE ...
                Actually, the arrow points not to the "radar", but to the Doppler sensor measuring the deviation of the initial velocity.] [/ Quote]
                If you think that two antennas on the Coalition can solve the required task,
                then I believe that the radar I have can solve my problem.
                I cited earlier that individual dopplers appeared and were used back in 1973.
                47 years have passed.
                I brought Kazakhs in order to understand what is happening in the world. And what can be done with old technology.
                The radar does not measure the deviation of the initial velocity by the Doppler shift, but the initial velocity of the projectile, but at the present time this is only one of its possible functions, because in my case, it also has the functionality I require, since it is not assembled from the world's largest integrated circuits.
                I'm just wondering how funny it was for the PMC fighters in Syria, who came under the non-contact fire effect of howitzers, MLRS and aviation?
      2. DDZ57
        DDZ57 19 September 2020 17: 26
        +1
        It will be possible to talk about the steepness of the "Coalition" when the infrared lights are removed and the driver is equipped with a good night vision device and a rear-view camera.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 20 September 2020 11: 09
          0
          Quote: DDZ57
          It will be possible to talk about the steepness of the "Coalition" when the infrared lights are removed and the driver is equipped with a good night vision device and a rear-view camera.

          laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing
          It looks like you don't really understand artillery ..
          1. DDZ57
            DDZ57 20 September 2020 16: 08
            0
            It looks like you don't really understand artillery ..

            This is one of the external (clearly visible) benchmarks, which speaks of the technical level of the ACS.
          2. Lopatov
            Lopatov 20 September 2020 16: 29
            0
            Quote: DDZ57
            This is one of the external (clearly visible) benchmarks, which speaks of the technical level of the ACS.

            laughing laughing laughing laughing
            Unless for those who know nothing about artillery.
            For
            "infrared lights" "a good night device for the driver" "rear view camera" and other "benchmarks"
            DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN CONDUCTING FIRE BY THE WEAPON.
          3. DDZ57
            DDZ57 20 September 2020 16: 44
            0
            "infrared lights" "a good night device for the driver" "rear view camera" and other "benchmarks"
            DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN CONDUCTING FIRE BY THE WEAPON.

            The self-propelled gun not only shoots, it also needs to come to the position and leave it.
            Or the Russian army at the present time and in its present form is ready to repeat the original maneuver of 41, when thousands of guns were thrown, and the l / s either raised his hands or skidded all the way to Moscow.
          4. Lopatov
            Lopatov 20 September 2020 16: 45
            0
            Quote: DDZ57
            The self-propelled gun not only shoots, it also needs to come to the position and leave it.

            Well yes. This is impossible without the super-expensive driver's night light.
            laughing
          5. DDZ57
            DDZ57 20 September 2020 19: 04
            0
            Well yes. This is impossible without the super-expensive driver's night light.

            Well, if in Syria, then it was possible. But even that is not always the case now.
            You probably know how many Turkish K-9s and UAVs Bayraktar-TB and Anka-S this year piled on Assad's T-55, T-62 and T-72 tanks, BMP-1 armored vehicles, and short-range Pantsir -S1 "and ZSU-23" Shilka ", self-propelled howitzers 2S1 and 2S3.
            1. The device is 40 years old. Even in Africa, there is no longer a sucker who can be fed up with a super-gun that does not have a world-wide super gun and who can be robbed of his money and when he has a painted mammoth tusk in front of his eyes. Therefore, he declares that if with this tusk, then only for free.
            2. An infrared searchlight can be seen from the air for 50 km.
            3. For some reason you forget about the driver-mechanic, who, after 5 minutes of work in a combat position, needs an hour or more to "steer" in order to dump further, and this procedure does not always happen during the day, at least during the day it is possible with the hatch open, and even then always because the sniper can sit somewhere. And what can be seen in a triplex, especially in a night light ?. And it would be desirable to dump into the forest or into buildings, taking into account the fact that the elda sticks out ahead. And here the situational awareness of the driver and the "idle time of the visual-motor reaction" of this person begins to emerge.
            4. And as the battalion commander of Msta told me on the A20, we don't give up if the crew is in the car. we see nothing. And sometimes 20-30m in reverse and quickly save the life of the crew. But there I again heard that we would not stand for the price.
          6. Lopatov
            Lopatov 23 September 2020 11: 27
            0
            Quote: DDZ57
            You probably know how many Turkish K-9s and UAVs Bayraktar-TB and Anka-S this year piled on Assad's T-55, T-62 and T-72 tanks, BMP-1 armored vehicles, and short-range Pantsir -S1 "and ZSU-23" Shilka ", self-propelled howitzers 2S1 and 2S3.

            And why?
            That's right, not because the headlights have an IR filter, but because the Syrians were afraid to strike at UAV control centers in Turkey.

            On the other hand, the Israelis were not afraid. And therefore, the active use of Iranian UAVs from the territory of Syria both began and ended immediately ...


            And yes, learn the materiel, the presence of a good night light from a mechanic does not protect against modern UAVs. At all.
            laughing laughing laughing
          7. DDZ57
            DDZ57 23 September 2020 13: 58
            0
            And yes, learn the materiel, the presence of a good night light from a mechanic does not protect against modern UAVs. At all.

            This is not only about rescuing from the UAV, but about the fact that a good device reduces the load on the driver, allows you to maintain a higher speed, quickly leave the position, etc. In the Russian army, a soldier is not always considered a man. So the results are regularly obtained, as in the Army 2020 when firing TURs from tanks. Or like in Transbaikalia.

            And why?
            That's right, not because the headlights have an IR filter, but because the Syrians were afraid to strike at UAV control centers in Turkey.
            On the other hand, the Israelis were not afraid. And therefore, the active use of Iranian UAVs from the territory of Syria both began and ended immediately ...


            The UAV control center in Turkey still needs to be found, the UAV can be controlled either through a repeater or through a satellite.
            And you also need to have what you are going to hit, but with fig in your pocket, what we have is what we get.
            And you forgot that Turkey is a NATO country, with all the ensuing consequences for the Russian Federation. And given the new proven gas reserves in the Mediterranean Sea, it can turn off the tap on the gas pipeline at any time.
            Well, Israel has been screwing the Arabs in full for more than half a century. And it will screw up, despite the S-400, Pantsiri, SU, etc.
  • DDZ57
    DDZ57 19 September 2020 17: 20
    +1
    The design of the RD and DG provide for RDM KVO projectiles - 0,4% at the full range.
    DG RDM sells a bunch of Western manufacturers of artillery shells.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 20 September 2020 11: 13
      0
      Quote: DDZ57
      The design of the RD and DG provide for RDM KVO shells - 0,4%

      Dear, unguided and non-corrected projectiles have no KVO.
      General.
      So they can indicate "KVO" any

      Quote: DDZ57
      DG RDM sells a bunch of Western manufacturers of artillery shells.

      Naturally.... laughing laughing laughing
      1. DDZ57
        DDZ57 20 September 2020 16: 14
        0
        Circular probable deviation (CEP) is an indicator of the accuracy of a bomb, missile, or projectile hit, used to assess the probability of hitting a target. Circular dispersion is a special case of the more general concept of probable or mean deviation, which has been widely used in artillery practice and ballistics since the XNUMXth century.
        They knew in the 19th century, but forgotten the Russian army in the 21st century.
        It is difficult for a victim of the exam and a zombie box to live.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 20 September 2020 16: 34
          0
          Quote: DDZ57
          They knew in the 19th century, but forgotten the Russian army in the 21st century.

          And in 19 they did not know ...
          laughing

          Educational program: for non-guided projectiles, dispersion ELLIPSE is characteristic.
          That is, no "KVO"
          A Vb, Vd and Vv,
          laughing laughing laughing



          Quote: DDZ57
          It is difficult for a victim of the exam and a zombie box to live.

          It is intended.
          So they will write "KVO projectile" and they will believe
          1. DDZ57
            DDZ57 20 September 2020 18: 05
            0
            For me, it makes no difference what concept to use as a KVO or scattering ellipse.
            When the main standard deviations are equal to each other, the scattering ellipses turn into circles.
            But in practice, the distribution of hits relative to the aiming point may not obey the circular normal law. In particular, in relation to high-precision weapons, a grouping of points of incidence closer to the conditional center of dispersion is noted, and, thus, there is a deviation from the normal distribution. When firing at targets on a horizontal surface, artillery ammunition is characterized by increased values ​​of the probable deviation in range compared to the probable deviation in the lateral direction, with the formation of a confidence region in the form of an ellipse (dispersion ellipse), elongated in range. In this case, the normal distribution ratios are invalid, however, the concept of CEP can still be used, remaining a measure of shooting accuracy (a lower value of CEP corresponds to a better shooting accuracy).
            Consider that I indicated Vd> 0,004 to you.
            1. DDZ57
              DDZ57 22 September 2020 06: 47
              0
              Consider that I indicated to you Vd> 0,004.


              I realized that I was a brekhanul, I was waiting for it to be corrected, I didn’t wait, it didn’t come to the artillerymen, I’ll correct it myself:
              the radius of the circle containing the best half of the hits (50%) (KVO) is 1,76 mean deviation or 0,6 core band (dispersion ellipse):
              Vd> 0,004 / 1,76 = 0,0023.

              PS: watch the film about Stalin (it was 21.09.), What happened then is happening now only at another round of evolution, the spiral of evolution in the Russian Federation has run down, old Darwin's hair stood on end in the grave ...
            2. Lopatov
              Lopatov 23 September 2020 11: 28
              0
              Quote: DDZ57
              For me, it makes no difference what concept to use as a KVO or scattering ellipse.

              laughing
              I realized this a long time ago
              But this does not prevent you from posing as an expert.
              1. DDZ57
                DDZ57 23 September 2020 13: 15
                0
                [quoteI understood this a long time ago
                But it doesn't bother you to pose as an expert.] [/ Quote]


                I'm not pretending to be an expert.
                It is not my fault that the West uses the concept of CEP, the military in the Russian Federation use the scattering ellipse, and the civilians in the Russian Federation use two terms.
              2. Lopatov
                Lopatov 23 September 2020 13: 22
                0
                Quote: DDZ57
                It's not my fault that the West uses the concept of KVO

                In the west, they also understand very well that scattering is an ellipse.
              3. DDZ57
                DDZ57 23 September 2020 18: 15
                0
                In the west, they also understand very well that scattering is an ellipse.


                And they write - CEP (Circular Error Probable).
  • DDZ57
    DDZ57 19 September 2020 11: 15
    0
    With a firing range on the 47-caliber MSTE-S - 29 kilometers.
    And all ...
    Well, if you increase the barrel length by 5 calibers - how much will the range increase with such a projectile?
    3-4 kilometers?
    So expert ...

    They increased the length of the barrel by 5 calibers, switched from separate-sleeve loading to cartridge (modular), increased the volume of the charging chamber to 23 liters, increased the pressure of the powder gases, changed the design of the lead-obturating device on the projectile, improved the ammo shell, increased the accuracy of processing the hull ... got at least 50 km, but with better accuracy.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 19 September 2020 14: 19
    +3
    Quote: SovAr238A
    Our MSTA-S reaches a firing range of 30 km with only a single shot (maximum charge and gas generator in the projectile) with a barrel length of 47 calibers ..

    In fact, the confirmed result of Excalibur in combat conditions from a short barrel is 36 km. At the same time, the partners currently have huge combat experience in using ultra-long-range accurate shooting. It is quite ridiculous to compare with them the samples that exist mainly in press releases. However, nothing new.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 20 September 2020 11: 18
      0
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      Actually a confirmed Excalibur result

      Especially.
      A guided projectile is by default capable of flying farther than an unguided one.

      Quote: Cherry Nine
      At the same time, the partners currently have vast combat experience in using ultra-long-range accurate shooting.

      I sympathize. This is because of the decades-long rotting of their own artillery.
      When one brigade has only six 155-mm towed guns, willy-nilly it is necessary to pervert
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 20 September 2020 17: 29
        0
        Quote: Spade
        I sympathize. This is because of the decades-long rotting of their own artillery.

        )))
        Well, not everyone can afford to fight in the style of their grandfathers.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 September 2020 13: 23
          0
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Well, not everyone can afford to fight in the style of their grandfathers.

          How are the Americans?
          Well, to consider that the enemy will not carry a counter-battery by default is not "grandfathers", these are great-great-grandfathers.
      2. DDZ57
        DDZ57 23 September 2020 13: 39
        0
        A guided projectile is by default capable of flying farther than an unguided one.


        Everything is exactly the opposite.
        Look at the German (Rheinmetall) VLAP 70 program. Their task is to achieve a firing range in a controlled flight of 75 km. To do this, they need to provide a firing range of 85 km in uncontrolled flight, because about 10% of the range will be eaten by the flapping of the wings - the drag will increase.
        To do this, they are busy in South Africa at the test site.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 September 2020 13: 48
          0
          Quote: DDZ57
          Everything is exactly the opposite.

          laughing
          Wild nonsense.
          Long ago we learned to "stretch" the descending branch of the trajectory, thereby increasing the range
          1. DDZ57
            DDZ57 23 September 2020 17: 04
            0
            Wild nonsense.
            Long ago we learned to "stretch" the descending branch of the trajectory, thereby increasing the range


            Name at least one projectile adopted for service that can extend its trajectory by pitching up?
            Excalibur works without pitching.
  • L-39NG
    L-39NG 18 September 2020 20: 51
    +3
    From what year is the article?
    Caesar on Tatra chassis (52 caliber) was ordered not only by the Army of the Czech Republic - (AČR), but also by other states, both European and Middle East. When using EFRB (Extended Range Full Bore) shells, it shoots at 42 km, when using special shells, at 50 km.
    And what about the Czechoslovak developments. We (the states), although politically divided into the Czech Republic and Slovakia, but the industry knows how to work together. Maybe we'll also make you happy with something.
    Sorry for Google translation
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 19 September 2020 10: 14
      -1
      Quote: L-39NG
      We (the states), although politically divided into the Czech Republic and Slovakia, but the industry knows how to work together.

      laughing
      That is why not some "Eva" went to the Czech Republic, but a generation lagging behind "Caesar"?

      Really knows how
      laughing laughing laughing
      1. L-39NG
        L-39NG 19 September 2020 14: 25
        +1
        And not only to the Czech Republic. We know how to sell tatra chassis and tatra caesar combination. We'll deal with the rest. And Moscow did not immediately ...
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 20 September 2020 11: 20
          -1
          Quote: L-39NG
          We know how to sell tatra chassis and tatra caesar combination.

          To which Slovakia has nothing to do.
          And the Slovak self-propelled gun of the Czech army, ahead of the French by a generation, did not fit. So you subservience to the French, or do you hate Slovaks so much?
      2. DDZ57
        DDZ57 22 September 2020 10: 03
        0
        not some "Eve"


        In the ground forces of Slovakia, there are more Zuzana 2 self-propelled guns than the Coalitions in the Russian army.

        and a generation lagging behind "Caesar"?


        Which served as the prototype for "Malva", to which there are no questions.
        ACS "Caesar" on the chassis "Tatra-815" 8 × 8 at least is and is on sale. "Malva" only in projects.
        1. DDZ57
          DDZ57 22 September 2020 12: 51
          0
          We know how to sell tatra chassis and tatra caesar combination.
          To which Slovakia has nothing to do.
          And the Slovak self-propelled gun of the Czech army, ahead of the French by a generation, did not fit. So you subservience to the French, or do you hate Slovaks so much?


          Slovakia, France, South Africa, etc. have put their guns on the Czech Tatra.
          For the Czech Caesar, at least 40% of the participation of Czech industry from its total cost is provided.
          Advertising of the Czech Tatra Mountains and the buyer's wishlist.
          1. DDZ57
            DDZ57 23 September 2020 09: 09
            0
            ACS EVA. Installed on a Tatra T815-7 8 × 8.1R chassis with an 8x8 wheel arrangement, the total weight of the unit is 28t, length 11,5m, width 2,7m (Slovakia-Czech Republic).
            1. DDZ57
              DDZ57 23 September 2020 09: 24
              0

              SAU T5. Chassis Tatra T815-7. The total weight of the installation is 28 tons, length 10,1 m, width 2,9 m (South Africa-Czech Republic-India).
              1. DDZ57
                DDZ57 23 September 2020 09: 29
                0

                SAU CAESAR. Chassis Tatra T815-7. The total weight of the installation is 32t, length 12,3m, width 2,8m (France-Czech Republic).
                1. DDZ57
                  DDZ57 23 September 2020 09: 38
                  0

                  SAU 2S43 "Malva" cal. 152,4mm. Chassis BAZ-6010-027. The total weight of the installation is? T, the length is not less than 14m, the width is ≈ 2,75m. Chassis weight ≈ 17,2 tons, weight of mounted equipment 26,8 tons. (RF).

                  Full load on the rear axle and too long.
                  There will be serious flotation and maneuverability problems.
                  Why not just copy the South African G6?
                  1. DDZ57
                    DDZ57 23 September 2020 09: 45
                    0

                    ACS Zuzana 2, Tatra T815-7 chassis. The total weight of the installation is 32t, length 14,2m, width 3,02m (Slovakia-Czech Republic).
                    Long, due to the protruding trunk.
                    1. DDZ57
                      DDZ57 23 September 2020 10: 03
                      0

                      ACS "Coalition-SV-KSH" cal.152,4mm. Chassis KamAZ-6560. The total mass of the installation is? T, length? M, width 2,5m (RF).
                      Carrying capacity of the chassis - 14t.
                      The gross vehicle weight is 26,9 tons.
                      Chassis length ≈9,7m.
                      The back stroller is overloaded, there will be problems with gears.
                      There will be serious cross-country problems.
                      The platform is narrow and high, it will fall on its side on a flat road, like a "Shell".
                      Who knows the answers to the questions, then add them.
                      And draw conclusions: who and where went and where is located and has ready-made and tested solutions.
                      If you made a mistake somewhere in the numbers, correct it.
          2. Lopatov
            Lopatov 23 September 2020 11: 06
            0
            That's not the question.
            And in why the Czech army went into service with an older, but French, and not a Slovak self-propelled gun
            1. DDZ57
              DDZ57 23 September 2020 11: 53
              0
              Because the Czechs move their Tatra like a universal chassis. The Czechs will supply themselves with 30-40 pieces. SPG, they no longer need it, but they will have the opportunity to show it to a potential client.
              And the localization of 40% of high-tech production with high added value in the Czech Republic is something for a specialist. I went to the Tatra in the 70s, even then there was no car of a similar class in the USSR.
              And who said that the modern Frenchman is somehow inferior to someone.
              It all depends on the option.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 23 September 2020 11: 59
                0
                Quote: DDZ57
                Because the Czechs are moving their Tatra,

                The new Slovak self-propelled gun "Eva" of the same generation as "Coalition" has the chassis "Tatra"

                Quote: DDZ57
                The Czechs will supply themselves with 30-40 pieces. SPG, they don't need it anymore

                Moreover, the obsolete Caesar self-propelled guns, and not the more modern Slovak Eva or Swedish Archer
                1. DDZ57
                  DDZ57 23 September 2020 12: 39
                  0
                  Moreover, the obsolete Caesar self-propelled guns, and not the more modern Slovak Eva or Swedish Archer


                  SAU "Caesar" 2019-2020 is no different from the modern Slovak "Eva", it all depends on the delivery option.
                  Swedish Archer - ACS of a slightly different design. Her price is higher.
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 23 September 2020 13: 25
                    0
                    Quote: DDZ57
                    SAU "Caesar" 2019-2020 is no different from modern Slovak "Eva"

                    Materiel.
                    Eve like Archer - fully automatic loading.
                    1. DDZ57
                      DDZ57 23 September 2020 17: 14
                      0
                      Materiel.
                      Eve like Archer - fully automatic loading.


                      Everyone takes materiel according to their tasks and according to their financial capabilities.
                      Ponty, like the temple of all forces, not everyone needs.
                      The Eva, like the Archer, are more expensive than the Caesar ACS.
                      I drive TLK 105 with mechanics, it solves my problems and suits me. As well as the Czechs ACS "Caesar".
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 23 September 2020 11: 03
          0
          Quote: DDZ57
          In the ground forces of Slovakia self-propelled guns Zuzana

          Question: Do you consider the Czech Republic and Slovakia to be one state?
          1. DDZ57
            DDZ57 23 September 2020 11: 57
            0
            [quoteQuestion: Do you consider the Czech Republic and Slovakia one state?] [/ quote]
            No, I don't.
            What's the question?
            In the ground forces of Slovakia, the Zuzana 2 self-propelled guns, which they make for themselves on a Czech chassis.
            And the performance of which the Petrel should have looked before sculpting his crafts
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 23 September 2020 12: 03
              0
              Quote: DDZ57
              No, I don't.
              What's the question?

              laughing laughing laughing laughing
              The question is the ability of some to read.

              There is a statement "And what about the Czechoslovak developments. We (the states), although politically divided into the Czech Republic and Slovakia, but the industry knows how to work together."
              There is a real fact. Instead of the modern Slovak self-propelled gun "Eva" on the chassis "Tatra", the Czech Republic chose a generation lagging behind and clearly more expensive French "Caesar"

              The statements are contrary to the facts.
              1. DDZ57
                DDZ57 23 September 2020 12: 30
                0
                There is a statement "And what about the Czechoslovak developments. We (the states), although politically divided into the Czech Republic and Slovakia, but the industry knows how to work together."


                Interstate industrial cooperation.
                The chassis is made by the Czech Republic. The gun platform is made by Slovakia.
                The chassis is made by the Czech Republic. The gun platform is made by France.
                What's the question.
                Air defense derivation - the complex is made by the Russian Federation, gyro-stabilized opico-electronic devices are made by Belarus, which takes the cooled module to them in the Russian Federation.
                The same goes for the Pantsir.
                See Iskander, Poplar and a whole bunch of everything.
                There was exactly this kind of cooperation with Ukraine, but it ended.
                To whom it is both profitable and work.
                Bolometers for sights were supplied by France at one time, Belarus assembled sights and supplied them to the Russian Federation for tanks.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 23 September 2020 13: 27
                  0
                  Quote: DDZ57
                  The chassis is made by the Czech Republic. The gun platform is made by Slovakia.

                  And the Czech Republic does not buy it. As a result, no one buys, even if they themselves do not fit.

                  Quote: DDZ57
                  The chassis is made by the Czech Republic. The gun platform is made by France.

                  And they buy. And they will buy even more.

                  The question is, where is "working together" here, if the Czech Republic is clearly working in favor of the French to the detriment of its neighbors, Slovaks?
                  1. DDZ57
                    DDZ57 23 September 2020 17: 22
                    0
                    And they buy. And they will buy even more.
                    The question is, where is "working together" here, if the Czech Republic is clearly working in favor of the French to the detriment of its neighbors, Slovaks?

                    The Czechs solve their problems, the Slovaks solve their problems, the French solve their problems.
                    They cooperate with each other, no one hits anyone in the face and does not spit at each other. So everything suits them, as they agree. And they don't count each other's money.
                    And they do not consider it necessary to ask permission from the "elder brother".
                    And they learn from each other, take proven and proven technical solutions, reducing time and costs, rather than reinventing a bicycle with square wheels.
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 18 September 2020 22: 00
    +2
    The article is good, thanks to the author!

    The wheeled self-propelled howitzers have indeed become visible in many of the latest reports. But there is a feeling that this option is still more for hybrid warfare, when mobility is more important than cross-country ability and protection.
    1. Mikhail Ya2
      Mikhail Ya2 19 September 2020 09: 02
      +1
      Platforms 6x6, and even more so 8x8, are quite passable and mobile. And given the lower prices for procurement and maintenance, I think they have better prospects than tracked vehicles. Of course, in quantitative terms, if the United States and the Russian Federation buy mainly tracked vehicles, then there will be more of them, but in terms of world distribution, wheeled vehicles will catch up and overtake
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 19 September 2020 22: 32
        0
        Quote: Mikhail Ya2
        Platforms 6x6, and even more so 8x8 are quite passable and mobile

        Try as something bright, sunny, April morning to turn off the concrete road to a bright green floodplain meadow. Even in the all-wheel drive Urals (or KAMAZ-e). All wheeled vehicles come to an abrupt end as soon as we move off the concrete road in our Russian middle lane .. For some time now I have almost fallen in love with the good old MT-LB. She just floats in this slime ... Puffing and growling but moves!
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 20 September 2020 11: 22
          0
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Try as something bright, sunny, April morning to turn off the concrete road to a bright green floodplain meadow. Even in the all-wheel drive Urals (or KAMAZ-e). All wheeled vehicles come to an abrupt end as soon as you move off the concrete road in our Russian middle lane ..

          But at the same time, the tractor with the towed tool will stand up with a high probability.
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 20 September 2020 19: 27
            0
            Quote: Spade
            But at the same time, the tractor with the towed tool will stand up with a high probability.

            AT-T definitely! I remember this huge and heavy piece of iron! Hence the moral, it is better to hang the gun on a floating chassis. Well, or not to climb in front of the sappers and pontoons :)