Military Review

Riddle: riders on the bas-reliefs with clubs in their hands

133

Not too well-preserved image of a horseman from the Archaeological Museum of the city of Fethiye. Nevertheless, it is clear that in his hands he is not holding a sword or a spear, but a club! Who is he, the equestrian clubman?


Work carefully
With his pickaxe, he made a stone!
Undercut the fragile layer
So that he does not fall on you.
After all, it happens so -
Everything goes well,
And then suddenly an avalanche
Collapses on his head.
(Poetic transcriptions of poems by Alkey, F. Antonov)


Ancient civilization. In our cycle of acquaintance with ancient culture, five materials have already been published: “Croatian Apoxyomen from under the water. Ancient civilization ", “Homer's poems as a historical source. Ancient civilization ", “Gold for war, the fourth wonder of the world and Ephesus marble”, "Antique ceramics and weapons" и Minoan Pompeii: a mysterious city on a mysterious island... Many asked when there would be a sequel. Here it is!

The topic arose spontaneously, only because the border with Turkey was finally opened, and my daughter and her son-in-law went to rest there. None of us likes to rest the way many Russians rested (albeit out of necessity) this year, that is, in Sochi, in Anapa and in the Crimea, in cramped conditions and a crush, swimming half in the sea, half in urine. For me and my wife this year, a trip was planned either with living in Gdansk to explore Malbork, Torun and other Polish cities, or away from the heat - by ferry across the northern countries. And then I write, I write about the Vikings, and I have not been to one of their museums ... But it did not grow together. But she has grown together, and this in the sense of obtaining interesting information is practically the same thing. She is also a candidate of sciences, associate professor, author of many scientific articles and a number of books, including those granted by the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation. So this time, the trip was planned to a place where there is a lot of ancient and interesting things: to the area of ​​ancient Lycia, where there are many tombs. The town where they stayed is called Oludeniz. It is also the most famous beach in Turkey.

It's cozy and not very hot there. They rented a car and set off, slightly "fried" on the beach, to various interesting places. And the places there really turned out to be very interesting, because these are the lands of ancient Phrygia and the Lydian kingdom, the very one ruled by the legendary Croesus. And today we will tell you about them, as well as the weapons of the Phrygian horsemen and unusual bas-reliefs on which horsemen with clubs in their hands are depicted ...


This hotel and the area around it


It is interesting that such funny fur-legged chickens walk on it!


Good cuisine on vacation ... How can we go without it? But after such a breakfast, curiosity and a desire to visit all the ancient ruins and all museums immediately wake up ...

Let's start with Phrygia, because in Asia Minor it arose first, immediately after the collapse of the great Hittite state, and occupied almost the entire territory of modern Turkey. But where did the Phrygians come from? Herodotus wrote that he was from Macedonia during the Trojan War, but there is an opinion that this happened much earlier, and the Phrygians themselves played an important role in the collapse of the Hittite kingdom. Could they belong to the "Sea Peoples"? Of course, but it is not possible to find out exactly. The Phrygians are mentioned in Assyrian, Urartian and Hebrew sources under the name "flies", but again this is not entirely accurate, but presumably.

Riddle: riders on the bas-reliefs with clubs in their hands

Phrygia and Lydia Map

The capital of the kingdom was the city of Gordion, derived from the name of King Gordius. According to an ancient legend, the kingdom of the brigs (hence the Phrigs, Phrygians) was left without a ruler, and they turned to the oracle: who should be chosen as king. And the oracle replied that the king will be the one who first meets him on the way to the temple of Zeus, and this person must necessarily sit on a cart. And such a person did meet the messengers, he turned out to be a simple peasant Gordiy, who had only two oxen. Having become the king of Phrygia, he placed his cart in the center of her capital, thanks to which he gained power, and entangled her yoke with the most complex knot, tied from cornel bast. According to legend, the person who could untangle this Gordian knot was to become the ruler of all Asia. And as we well know, Alexander the Great, who found himself in Gordion in 334 BC. e., did not get involved with this difficult matter, but simply cut it!

The wealth of Phrygia was provided by gold mines and alluvial gold, which was washed at the mouth of the Pactolus River, which flowed in the lands of Lycia. The Phrygian kingdom reached its highest power under King Midas, the very one who turned everything that he touched into gold, and in addition had donkey ears. By the way, he got rid of his gift by swimming in the Pactol River, in which he washed off the magic spell, which is why it became gold-bearing.


Tomb of Midas. This is a typical tumulus, which was first built as an underground burial chamber, which was then covered from above with a false dome or vault made of stone blocks, after which it was covered with earth so that a hill formed above the burial place. The diameter of "Midas Hill" is 300 m, and its height is 50 m. It was excavated in 1957, and in 1960 it was made available for viewing. Turkish archaeologists periodically find burial mounds and ancient burials that belonged to the Phrygian nobility, and in them - gold jewelry, cult items of the goddess Cybele and various artifacts



Entrance to the tomb of Midas

It is also known about the Phrygians that they were engaged in arable farming, bred cattle and horses, which is why they had first-class cavalry for that time, using which they successfully fought Assyria and Urartu. But ... the invasion of the Cimmerians became disastrous for their country. The Roman historian Strabo wrote that the Cimmerians plundered the country for over twenty years, which means that there was something to plunder. In any case, the tomb of King Midas has survived to this day. By the way, the Greeks were jealous of the Phrygians and their riches and ... wrote about them various poems shaming them. They wrote that the Phrygians were slaves at heart, unable to stand up for themselves. In the comedies of the Greeks, Phrygian slaves are constantly encountered, and the famous slave Aesop is also from Phrygia!


Gold jewelry from burials around Fethiye. Fethiye Archaeological Museum


And here is the museum itself

Perhaps this is due to the fact that the Greeks knew about the death of the Phrygian kingdom, and in addition, they were unaccustomed and unpleasant to the very appearance of the Phrygians, who, unlike the Greeks, wore wide trousers, similar to wide trousers, a high felt cap-cap, which was made of sheep wool, and a long tunic was put on the body - and all this is bright in the oriental way, embroidered with colored patterns, not at all the same as among the Greeks.


Such sculptures could only be left by an outstanding civilization of the past


The rock tombs of the Lycian nobility are located right on the outskirts of Fethiye

The main thing that has come down to us through the darkness of the centuries from the elements of Phrygian culture is the famous Phrygian cap, which became one of the symbols of the Great French Revolution, although, most likely, it was the Cimmerians who brought it with them, who dressed like the Scythians and had characteristic leather caps on their heads or headwear.


A man dressed in a Phrygian costume. Terracotta figurine found in Cyprus. Louvre, Paris

Then, among the regions that were part of Phrygia, thanks to the gold deposits, Lydia stood out and became a rich and independent state. There was even a saying about her king Croesus: rich as Croesus. Under him, and this was already the middle of the VI century BC. BC, Phrygia received the status of an autonomous region, but was completely subordinate to Lydia. Well, Lydia herself was later under the rule of the Persian state, then belonged to Macedonia, the Seleucids, then the Galatians, the Pergamon kingdom, Mithridates of Pontus and Rome.

Not far from the city of Fethiye there are many interesting places related to history antiquity. For example, the city of Patar.


It has preserved the theater of the Hellenistic period, most of which was recently covered with sand. The surviving inscriptions indicate that at the beginning of the 147st century BC. it was rebuilt by a certain Polyperchon, a priest of Apollo. On the outer surface of the skene, an inscription is still visible, stating that the Proscenium (an extension to the skene in the form of a colonnade or portico) was built by a man named Quintius Velius Tition in 38 A.D., that is, already in Roman times, and is decorated with statues and marble covering "in honor of the gods of August, in honor of the gods of the city of Patara and in honor of the emperor Antoninus Pius" by his daughter, Viliya Prokula. The theater had XNUMX rows, which could accommodate six thousand people



On the streets of Patara

But this city was relatively small. And yet it had such an impressive theater!


The floor tiles are of course modern!

In addition to gold, zinc was mined here, valuable saffron was grown, horses were raised, and, of course, they were engaged in winemaking and butter making.

Having a lot of horses and gold, the Lydian rulers naturally also had a good army: cavalry from local aristocrats and hired infantry from the Greek cities of Asia Minor. Like Phrygia, Lydia suffered from another invasion of the Cimmerians, but managed to recover from it and significantly expand its territory, so that she began to occupy almost the entire Asia Minor region of the Phrygian kingdom. The Cimmerians were successfully driven out, and an era of prosperity began for Lydia, associated with the reign of King Croesus (562-547 BC). He conquered the Greek cities in Asia Minor and forced them to pay tribute to Lydia. However, the end of both Croesus himself and his state was sad. In 546 BC. e. The kingdom of Lydia was conquered by the Persian king Cyrus. Since then, as noted above, it was under the rule of the Persians, Macedonians, Syrians and Romans.


There is also an abandoned, and very old city, Kayakoy, where the Greeks used to live. But then the Greeks moved to themselves, and no one began to live in their houses. Churches, houses - everything is in desolation, but tourists really like to come here

Nevertheless, Lydia played a big role in the Ancient World. It was the Lydians who began to mint the first coin from electron, and then from silver and gold, and both Greeks and Persians willingly used these coins.


And there are also very picturesque and beautiful places.


Many people specially come to Oludeniz to fly paragliding

But we, however, since we are on the "Military Review", should, of course, be interested in the warriors of Phrygia and Lydia, and above all their famous horsemen.

It is interesting that V. Vuksik and Z. Grbazik, authors of the book "History of the Combat Elite of 650 BC", based on a large amount of studied archaeological material, made a wonderful drawing - a reconstruction of a Phrygian equestrian warrior of the XNUMXth century BC. He wears a helmet in the form of a Phrygian cap, a shield-pelta, which, by the way, the Greeks themselves just borrowed from the Phrygians, in his hand a two-edged battle ax. The rider's armor is a scaly cuirass, tied at the sides with straps, but with shoulder pads similar to those used on the Greek thorax.


Phrygian horseman. Figure: from the book: V. Vuksic, Z. Grbasic. Cavalry. The history of fighting elite 650BC - AD1914. L .: Cassell, 1994. P.41

But what is interesting is that stone bas-reliefs depicting horsemen with clubs in their hands are exhibited in the archaeological museum of the city of Fethiye. Maybe these are the burial stones that adorned the graves of the deceased, which they represent. However, something is clearly not right here ... Of course, a weighty wooden club may well be weapons a rider, especially if his opponents are foot soldiers with short swords. But still, this is a rather strange weapon for a cavalryman. Therefore, you need to refer to the explanatory inscription. Turks are detailed people, all signatures in their museums are bilingual, the second is usually in English.

We read it and find out that in fact these are "steles of the vow", also called Kakasbos, which occupy an important place in the cultural wealth of Kibira - the northwestern region of Lycia. That is, if a person made a promise to the gods, then he ordered such a bas-relief. On the pedestal of such a stele are written the reason for the promise, the name of the person who gave it, and the name of the god to whom the vow was made. But the most interesting thing is that the rider with the club is none other than ... Hercules. He was revered in the area as the equestrian god Kakasbos!


There are many such bas-reliefs in the Fethiye Museum. For example, there is such ... Pay attention to the sultan on the horse's head

I wanted to know more about these bas-reliefs, and I even found two master's theses on this topic. One in Quebec in French (!) And a thesis by Slee Kandas, who studied in Archeology and Art History at Bilkent University in Ankara and defended it in September 2006. It was written in English. I read it and learned the following.


On this bas-relief, the rider's face is very well preserved! I never thought that Hercules could look like this!

It turns out that this very Kakasbos was a local deity of the inhabitants of Northern Lycia, Western Pamphylia and Pisidia. In reliefs, he was usually depicted as a figure on horseback, and he either lifts a large club or carries it on his shoulder. There are details that distinguish this god from other gods who were also associated with horses (for example, Poseidon, Apollo), in particular, this is his main attribute - a club. God is naked or dressed in a thin tunic or chlamydah, although there are also bas-reliefs where he is shown in armor. Some figures wear lorica, although it is rather difficult to see it due to erosion.

Some of the figures are depicted wearing helmets and military shoes. Interestingly, only the figures identified as Kakasbos were depicted wearing armor, while the other gods do not. Perhaps the image of a god dressed in armor was borrowed from Roman equestrian sculptures and was clearly identified with a male warrior.


But on this bas-relief, all the details, including the face, are outlined rather roughly

Yes, but what does Hercules have to do with it? The fact is that the traditional image of Hercules in ancient visual arts presents us with a hero known for his strength and muscular appearance. Iconographically united with Hercules, Kakasbos was more likely to become visually memorable. Of course, the image of the hero's horse is also important. It should be emphasized here that, apart from the East, Anatolia, Asia Minor has never been a country of tall horses, and the same problem persisted in mainland Greece. And it is for this reason that the Greek cavalry never played a serious role in military affairs, at least until the arrival of the Macedonian kings on its lands. It is known that Philip II, dissatisfied with local horses, imported horses from Scythia, hoping in this way to improve their breed. Later, Alexander the Great reorganized his cavalry, replenishing it with new horses from Thrace.


The club is crowned with a truly impressive "apple", just the mace of Ilya Muromets!

The club basically occupies two different positions: either it is in the hand and raised, or it lies on the shoulder of the deity. All inscriptions on the steles belonging to the second group were dedicated to Hercules, so this type was associated only with him. Only one rider is dressed in garments that cover the entire body. Most of the other gods-riders, identified as Hercules, Kakasbos, are dressed in short-brimmed clothes such as a chiton, belted in different ways, with a cloak-chlamyd, fastened either on the chest or on the right shoulder. A shell with pterygs is sometimes found on Kakasbos and Hercules, and the squamata lorica is an armor used in the Roman Empire, a type of scaly shell on a fabric or leather base, with steel or bronze plates sewn onto it, fastened with wire or cord to each other in horizontal rows, appears three times. Several times it is accompanied by a helmet, but the most common type of shoe is Roman caligi, Roman military sandals made of leather with straps and with leather soles.


And this one. Here, on the bas-relief, horse decoration is noticeable, but details of the rider's clothing are very poorly visible

As for the dating, the samples we know date from the XNUMXnd-XNUMXrd centuries, but numismatic and epigraphic evidence suggests that this cult existed in this area before.


Stele dedicated to Kakasbos, III-IV centuries AD Fethiye Museum, inv. No. 2.11.79.1481

This is how important it is, being in Turkey, not only to enjoy the sea, sun, and delicious food, but also to be interested in artifacts from local museums. There is a chance to learn a lot of really interesting things!

PS By the way, the length of the beach in the same Patara is 21 km. And this is a wonderful place, but you can swim here only until eight in the evening. You can't later: the Caretta Caretta turtles go ashore to lay their eggs. Special observers at night in the light of flashlights find their masonry on the tracks and mark them with a special fence. Turks take care of their nature.


One of the local beaches. Yes, this is not Sochi or Anapa ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
Minoan Pompeii: a mysterious city on a mysterious island
Antique ceramics and weapons
Gold for war, the fourth wonder of the world and Ephesus marble
Homer's poems as a historical source. Antique civilization. H. 1
Croatian apoxiomen from the water. Ancient civilization. H. 2
133 comments
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  1. sergo1914
    sergo1914 22 September 2020 18: 02
    +3
    Ilya Muromets is. With a club. Obviously.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 22 September 2020 19: 06
      +2
      Moreover, a bicaliber club with a fire mode switch. laughing
  2. Prisoner
    Prisoner 22 September 2020 18: 14
    +1
    And it seemed to me that he was throwing a grenade.
  3. Egoza
    Egoza 22 September 2020 18: 15
    +2
    Thanks to the author! very interesting and informative material. And somewhere there the thought flashes that if humanity now does not understand and does nothing, then in the future our armies will be armed with such clubs.
  4. maktub
    maktub 22 September 2020 18: 29
    0
    Respect to the author!
  5. The comment was deleted.
  6. nnm
    nnm 22 September 2020 18: 34
    +2
    Regarding Hercules.
    "The Thracian horseman also had his own Thracian name - Geros (Heros) - heros, less often hērōn, heron, eron, akin to the Greek word" hero "(ancient Greek ἥρως, hḗrōs, literally" defender "), which in turn originated to the name of the Greek goddess Hera (ancient Greek Ἥρα, Hērā; Ἥρη, Hērē, Mycenaean e-ra; presumably "protector, mistress"). The name Hercules (Greek literally "Glory to Hera") must be related to Heros. "
    Or is it still:
    The fact is that the traditional image of Hercules in ancient visual arts presents us with a hero known for his strength and muscular appearance.

    That is, it turns out that the rider on the bas-relief is Hercules, not because he is strong and related to this hero of myths, but because the etymology of the word indicates that he is just a warrior?
    Yes, I understand that we are talking about Thrace, but nevertheless ...
    1. Operator
      Operator 22 September 2020 21: 00
      +4
      The Soviet philologist (now an academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences) Kazansky Nikolai Nikolaevich in an article published in the scientific collection "Paleo-Balkan Studies and Antiquity" (Moscow: Nauka, 1989), showed that the name Gera comes from the Sanskrit root "yar".

      According to the professor, doctor of physical and mathematical sciences Abrashkin Anatoly Alexandrovich, the names of Hera and Hercules came from the name of the Aryan god Yar after the settlement of the Aryan tribe of Pelasgians in the territory of future Greece among its indigenous inhabitants - the Hamites, carriers of E1 (2nd millennium BC).
      https://history.wikireading.ru/260532

      Since the remains of wheels and chariots, skeletons of horses and children's clay toys in the form of horse-drawn carts (dated to the 3rd millennium BC), as well as burials of people, carriers of R1a, were found further north on the territory of the future Thrace, the remains of wheels and chariots, bones of horses and children's clay toys the meaning of the image of Hercules on a horse.
      1. kalibr
        23 September 2020 07: 25
        0
        Finally, I can thank you, Andrey, for your comment from the bottom of my heart.
  7. Igor Litvin
    Igor Litvin 22 September 2020 18: 35
    -5
    They also found a sensation for me - a man with a club! We have such "sensations" in Minsk - in every district:
    1. nnm
      nnm 22 September 2020 18: 45
      +7
      Oh, where without "onizhedeti" and "cops are not people." All this was not invented by you. You are just another puppet in a long-established system of color revolutions.
      The only strange thing is that after the example of the Ukrainian maydaun you are jumping on the same rake so relish.
      1. Igor Litvin
        Igor Litvin 22 September 2020 18: 46
        +1
        thanks, now I will know ...
        1. nnm
          nnm 22 September 2020 18: 48
          +4
          It was time to know, at least since 2014. If it has not yet reached someone after the "Orange Revolution, Rose Revolution" and so on.
          PS Please hi
        2. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 22 September 2020 19: 15
          11
          Taking this opportunity, not for political srach, just out of curiosity I would like to ask a person who positions himself as a Belarusian.
          What started in connection with the elections and has not ended yet - is it against Lukashenka personally or for someone else, who is better? On the one hand, it seems that in the countries of "victorious oppositions" no one began to live better, except for the actual leaders of these oppositions, and on the other ... So I am interested in - what about the other?
          1. RVAPatriot
            RVAPatriot 22 September 2020 22: 53
            +6
            We have many against Lukashenka, tired ... But wait trying to turn so that the entire opposition for the West. And Tikhanovskaya is in charge of this puppet theater, as they say
            1. kalibr
              23 September 2020 07: 23
              +3
              Dear namesake! In Greece, there was such a ruler Pericles. He ruled successfully for 28 years. Re-elected ... EVERY YEAR! And there was a young man who decided to kill him! And I came to kill him, motivating - you rule well, Pericles, but we have DEMOCRACY. Let him rule worse than you, but ANOTHER. This is how the ancient Greeks understood it!
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 22 September 2020 18: 55
      +8
      Igor, hi You are not alone in your Minsk, there is enough of this kind everywhere and for everyone.

      And the inscriptions on the posters can be in any language.
      1. Igor Litvin
        Igor Litvin 22 September 2020 19: 15
        0
        We also beat people in line at the store without flags at all. And rags with the words "this is not a flag" are removed from the balconies:
        1. RVAPatriot
          RVAPatriot 22 September 2020 22: 55
          +2
          And why are you provoking, how many asked if you want Ukraine ... The answer is "Everything will be different for us" ... BRAINS WHERE ???
          1. Oprichnik
            Oprichnik 19 November 2020 22: 50
            +1
            Regarding the processions in Mins and other cities. The undersized have no brains yet. The athletes have shrunk - everything has gone into the muscles. The artists have no identity, the change of appearance is too frequent. Students have dreams of some kind of "freedom", the West, and an adrenaline rush. Media workers - well, these are understandable - the second oldest profession. Catholics (pensioners), driven and fed by handouts in the Red Church, are always against the Russian world, Orthodoxy and culture - they are also "Eurapays". A non-working shantrap, football fans, gopniks, former multiple convicts, losers, hysterics and just doo.y - these are the contingent of these processions. The rest of the people work and are increasingly negative about these prodigal zombies. Repeated questions: What do you want? Received the answer: Freedom, Let him go. Question: What's next? Do you want this ... limited housewife? - in response, silence. This is how Sundays pass - with the disconnection of the mobile Internet (to complicate this ... coordination and the closure of several metro stations in the center.
            If I were younger, I would have joined the OMON. Fortunately, there is experience - in the 90s, nationalist separatists were driven from the Belarusian Popular Front.
    3. RVAPatriot
      RVAPatriot 22 September 2020 22: 51
      -4
      Wait your women expose, the men are over, he is on the couch ????
  8. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 22 September 2020 19: 07
    +6
    Damn, why Samsonov in the morning, and Shpakovsky in the evening? Why couldn't it have been the other way around - Shpakovsky in the morning, and Samsonov was not needed at all? smile
    I would not have received a warning, because I would not read and comment accordingly. laughing
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, thank you, it was interesting. I think I will not be mistaken if I ask you to convey from us also the gratitude of your daughter. smile
    Question.
    I still do not understand by what signs the rider with the club Kakasbos (by the way, where is the accent in this word?) Was identified as Hercules? Moreover, Hercules is usually depicted in the skin of a Nemean lion and on foot. Is the club alone sufficient for such identification? Or are there any other signs?
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 22 September 2020 19: 23
      +4
      As far as I can tell, there are also descriptions of the actions (often included) and the repetition of plots.
      The laws of iconography - the specific supply of artifacts, equipment, body position, facial features - come from the Asia Minor bas-relief. From the Hittites, by the way, the Sumerians and Akkadians did not have this.
      But in general, the syncretic deity as it is, there all the pantheons of such, the Heraclids, brought and developed. The Dorians - and Hercules and their descendants are - came on foot or in chariots, but not on horseback. They did not know how yet.
      Something like that.
    2. kalibr
      22 September 2020 19: 29
      +5
      What a great question. Michael! Here it is: I don't know. I read the whole dissertation, and in 217 pages with pictures, and realized that this issue is being debated. All the nuances are listed: the presence of a squamate lorica, the absence of a helmet, the presence of a raincoat, DUBIN, but ... I still did not understand "why Hercules." After all, Kakasbos (I won't say anything about the stress, there is only this: Ancient Greek "Kakasbos (in ancient Greek Κακασβος, but found only in the dative mood наклонακασβω) is an ancient Anatolian deity. Associated with Hercules no later than the beginning of the era of the Roman Empire, he was revered exclusively South Asia Minor, more precisely in Lycia and Pisidia. As a horse-rider with a club, Kakasbos seems to have something to do with protection from danger, but this hypothesis is still being discussed by historians. "That's all, in short ... Not much, is not it?
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 22 September 2020 19: 57
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        Not a lot, right?

        Nevertheless, some questions have been clarified, thanks. hi
    3. kalibr
      22 September 2020 19: 45
      +4
      Mikhail answered you the first question (albeit bad!) And decided to write that their trip was generally very informative in terms of information finds. Now the second article is being written about a very interesting thing about which I also did not know anything, but she saw it live and photographed it. So ... "you have to go"! Including to Turkey ... There is more Ancient Greece than in Greece itself ...
    4. Undecim
      Undecim 22 September 2020 19: 46
      +8
      Aha, so prowess your fiery speech. And mine. under yours - no. It's strange. I, too, do not suffer from special parliamentarianism in the comments.
      I still do not understand on what grounds the rider with the club Kakasbos (by the way, where is the stress in this word?) Was identified as Hercules?
      As I understood from the scanty, moreover, foreign-language literature, Kakasbos is not Hercules, but an ancient Anatolian god, who was revered exclusively in the southern part of Asia Minor, in particular in Lycia and Pisidia. Under the influence of either the Greeks or the Romans, something like assimilation took place - a process as a result of which the local god Kakasbos lost his distinctive features, which were replaced by the features of another, "alien" - Hercules.
      This question, apparently, is still open.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 22 September 2020 19: 59
        +4
        Quote: Undecim
        This question, apparently, is still open.

        Apparently so. But the hypothesis you voiced seems quite reliable, thanks. hi
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 22 September 2020 20: 07
          +6
          The hypothesis is not mine, I do not pretend to such heights. I just voiced information from the sources reviewed.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 22 September 2020 20: 11
            +4
            Quote: Undecim
            I just voiced the information

            Quote: Trilobite Master
            your hypothesis

            smile
            Anyway, thanks. smile
            1. cost
              cost 23 September 2020 03: 14
              +2
              Hercules' real name, given to him at birth, was Palemon. It is often written that his name was Alcides, but this is not a name, but "old name" (by analogy with the patronymic), meaning "descendant of Alkeus" - his grandfather was Alkei Perseevich. Perseus - the very same, Gorgon-killer - Hercules, thus, is a great-grandson. His feats, unlike the deeds of most of the celestials, are simple and understandable to people: Hercules allegedly personally participated in the "Argo" expedition, tumbled with fighters at the Olympic Games (which he himself invented), cut the heads of enemies with a club in the First Trojan, a tripod like- then he stole from the temple of Apollo, suffered from seizures ... And he died like a simple hero: according to Ptolemy Hephaestion, at 50, finding that he could no longer draw his bow and not wanting to ingloriously die of old age, he stepped into the fire.
              1. kalibr
                23 September 2020 07: 20
                +2
                Dmitry, and also ... many Greeks condemned him! They considered him a coward who never wore a shield and a spear, vile, shooting poisoned arrows ... even a comedy about him was written by someone. That is, everything is not so unambiguous among the Greeks!
    5. Catfish
      Catfish 22 September 2020 19: 49
      +5
      Michael, hello hi , and for what "medal" earned, did not shave off Samsonov, by chance? wink
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 22 September 2020 20: 01
        +6
        Greetings, Konstantin. hi smile
        Quote: Sea Cat
        did not Samsonov shave off, by chance?

        Him, darling. I open VO in the morning, and there it is ...
        Well, zealous and leaped, he spoke ...
        Well, okay, not the first and not the last ... laughing
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 22 September 2020 20: 07
          +5
          A useless occupation, although it is difficult to resist, I understand ... drinks
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 22 September 2020 20: 12
            +6
            But while the comment was hanging, I collected pluses ... smile
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 22 September 2020 20: 25
              +5
              So in fact for the cause. smile
            2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 September 2020 21: 44
              +5
              Guys don't give a damn about these pluses!
              What's in the first of the generals to lieutenants !!! laughing
              Mikhail wrote the truth, but who needs it - this truth !!! Even I scraped the tray at the beginning with my foot, but did not dig it out completely !!! Sick! Attacks, I'm afraid they will come for our soul after five or six days and all "to the wall", no statute of limitations !!!
              Next time I propose to paint the splendor of the next pseudoscientific research and "add" its utter indecency, so that a tear from the author's eyes would sprinkle with emotion! The bar and the company went into a binge with happiness, to squirrels, tartars and Aryans !!! All our company was hung up ahead of schedule with stars of field marshals with orders with a spin on their backs! Michael can definitely !!! Only sur, we warn each other in advance, otherwise // // anything can happen!
              By the way, Vyacheslav Olegovich, thanks for the article! In other words, "vrads", where is my title three times unctuous? I was too late !!!
              1. Liam
                Liam 22 September 2020 22: 11
                0
                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                Even I scratched the tray at the beginning with my foot

                For some reason I would like to ask the author to write a sociological essay about the dangers of internet life and the roots of expression
                Fall into childhood
    6. hohol95
      hohol95 22 September 2020 22: 04
      +4
      Never read Samsonov before lunch.
  9. Undecim
    Undecim 22 September 2020 19: 10
    +8
    One of the local beaches.
    It takes a lot of work to get a good photo. But it's worth it.

    And take a photo in the fall, when vacationers do not interfere.
  10. Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 22 September 2020 19: 10
    +2
    = Resting the way many Russians rested this year (albeit out of necessity), that is, in Sochi, Anapa and the Crimea, in cramped quarters and crush, swimming half in the sea, half in urine, none of us likes. =
    Well, what is it you, first dirtied the Black Sea with your urine, and now you decided to take up the Mediterranean? wassat
    = It's interesting that such funny fur-legged chickens walk on it! =
    In the village where I have a dacha, you won't surprise anyone with such chickens.

    = One of the local beaches. Yes, this is not Sochi or Anapa ... =
    Well, as they say - what they are rich in. But the Turks do not have what we have. Such beauties as we have nowhere else in the world. True, not everyone is given to see and admire the beauties of the Motherland.
    1. kalibr
      22 September 2020 19: 39
      +3
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      it is you, at first you dirtied the Black Sea with your urine

      When they talk about the Motherland and love for it, not for a catchphrase and stupid pathos, they mean that for the rest of citizens, the government they have chosen must create conditions that correspond to their human appearance. And the Mediterranean has no problem with that. On Turkish beaches, there are well-equipped toilets and changing cabins. That is the slogan: "Everything for the good of man!" works there. It is unclear why he never really worked for us, although there is progress now.
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Such beauties as we have nowhere else in the world.

      In fact, there are a lot of them. You just haven't seen them and you have nothing to compare with. And there is no comparative information, then ... this is hearsay and does not count. The TV screen is not able to convey what you see with your eyes ...
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 22 September 2020 20: 17
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        mean that for the rest of citizens, the government they have elected must create conditions,

        In-oh-oh-from! "The authorities must CREATE conditions for rest." This is the main mistake of the primitive consumer. Power creates nothing. It only organizes people (citizens) to achieve a goal. In this sense - to equip places for mass recreation of citizens. Don't you need to equip places of rest? And the territory of Russia, which is necessary and equip as far as possible, and the territory of Turkey, do not have enough intelligence to compare? And climatic conditions do not interfere with comparison. But you "take out and put", and where, how and what, you do not care. Here in Turkey (storage, England) there is, so give me too.
        And the fact that in Russia three times in the 20th century the destructive wave did not count? By the way, the last one turned out to be the most destructive - your spiritual brothers, lovers of everything Western, did their best.
        1. kalibr
          22 September 2020 20: 26
          +5
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          And the fact that in Russia three times in the 20th century the destructive wave did not count?

          How long are we going to refer to this? Look what a srach in Abkhazia. And ask why? They will answer you: We had a war! But just at this time there was a war and no less brutal in Croatia. Also victims, destruction ... But no traces remained! And that the citizens themselves have to repair multi-storey buildings? And you are absolutely correct in posing the question: "there" is, so give us, you are the government, the servants of the people, we are worse than "there". But you can't ... well, then don't blame us that our money will go where it is better for us personally, and not where someone from above offers us. So don't la-la! We must adopt all the best from everyone, and not preserve our decay, like Christ's circumcision in cancer!
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 24 September 2020 18: 08
            -1
            Quote: kalibr
            And you are absolutely correct in posing the question: "there" is, so give us, you are the government, servants of the people, we are worse

            Look how sly! Today it is not the Soviet government, which was responsible for everything. Today you are effective property owners. Soviet heritage: boarding houses. rest houses, sanatoriums that were closed, that they were plundered, that they were privatized. And now again the state must restore all this? In Turkey, too, say, are all these equipped beaches and hotels state-owned?
            1. kalibr
              24 September 2020 18: 16
              +1
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              And now again the state must restore all this? In Turkey, too, say, are all these equipped beaches and hotels state-owned?

              I'm "cunning", but why are you so stupid? It is not the state that should restore, no, but it should create conditions so that private individuals, as in Turkey, would benefit from doing this! Should stimulate the development of the private hotel business, and not tear three skins off it. And strict control so that sewage is not released into the sea from private hotels! This is the direct responsibility of government agencies!
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 24 September 2020 18: 54
                -1
                [quote = kalibr
                And you are absolutely correct in posing the question: "there" is, so give us, you are the government, servants of the people, we are worse than [/ quote]
                Are these your words? You argue that power (the state) should.
                Quote: kalibr

                It is not the state that should restore, no, but it should create conditions so that private traders,

                Are these also your words? And here you are already claiming something completely different.
                I don’t understand what you want?
                Although no, I realized - for a smart weather vane this is a normal state - a split consciousness.
                Well, how can you create conditions for them if they want to get a return of 100 rubles for each ruble invested, and even by lunchtime?
                1. kalibr
                  24 September 2020 18: 59
                  +3
                  This I will not understand you. The state must, must, create conditions for a comfortable life for its citizens. Do you understand the difference in words? And how - by stimulating private traders, or by building itself - I personally do not care. That's all! Explained easily? How about? How they create in the same Turkey! You can want a lot of things. But the state is the guarantor of acceptable conditions for everyone. Not for all? Then this is a bad state and we need to improve it! What's wrong?
                  1. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 24 September 2020 19: 10
                    -1
                    Quote: kalibr
                    This I will not understand you.

                    Yes, you can't do it.
                    1. kalibr
                      24 September 2020 21: 31
                      +2
                      It is generally impossible to understand the stupid. It's easy to understand me. If we are a great power, then we should be at least as good as in Turkey, and so all the beautiful words about "getting up from your knees" are not worth much. Our "leaders" do not know how, so then let them study or leave and give a place to those who do better. These are the fundamental foundations of democracy!
                      1. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 24 September 2020 23: 45
                        -1
                        Quote: kalibr
                        It is generally impossible to understand the stupid.

                        Are you talking about yourself? Otherwise how to understand your words -
                        Quote: kalibr
                        These are the fundamental foundations of democracy!

                        "Foundations" - that's cool, of course. But where did you see democracy? It's cooler than the foundations. laughing wassat
                      2. kalibr
                        25 September 2020 07: 23
                        0
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        But where did you see democracy?

                        In our country, it is enshrined in the Constitution.
                      3. kalibr
                        25 September 2020 07: 30
                        +3
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Are you talking to yourself?

                        Take a look at the profile. There are 1384 materials. Try to write at least one. Take a look on the Web, there are 40 of my printed books and 6 electronic ones. Publish at least one. Then I will talk to you as a person worthy of a serious conversation. So far, there is only one benefit from you - clicks and comments.
                      4. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 25 September 2020 08: 17
                        0
                        Quote: kalibr

                        Take a look at the profile. There are 1384 materials. Try to write at least one. Look on the Net, there are 40 of my books

                        Each has its own purpose. Some have the production of material values, without which you cannot live. Others - to entertain the manufacturer of material values, without which he can easily live.
                        Keep entertaining the audience.
                      5. kalibr
                        25 September 2020 08: 59
                        +1
                        The conversation is pointless. I heard similar remarks more than once in Soviet times: without peasants there is no grain, without working harvesters that mow it, no one can live without sewers. But to put the material at the forefront is nonsense. You yourself constantly graze on VO. What for? And there is a need to receive and process information. It is clear that at the level of their intelligence, but it exists. And it is very important. You can do without a lot of material values. Without spiritual values ​​... Can you imagine a society in which people "easily live" without spiritual values? Therefore, once again I am writing - try to think at least a little before writing. Although if I really do it, then what can I do - write. The site is important for the clicks of any people and any comments. In the general mass who wrote them, about what, and how - it doesn't matter!
                      6. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 25 September 2020 09: 30
                        -1
                        Quote: kalibr
                        The conversation is pointless.

                        Are you so stupid that you yourself do not understand what you are writing?
                        = Check out your profile. There are 1384 materials. Try to write at least one. Take a look on the Web, there are 40 of my books =
                        You offered me to write at least one material, hinting that I am not able to do this, they say - stupid.
                        I delicately made it clear to you that "each has its own purpose." You did not understand the hint and started a song about the sewers.
                        In plain text, you cannot do even a fraction of what I do. Conclusion - (following your method) are you infinitely stupid?
                        Well, about your 1383 material. Their number speaks directly, even cries out, about their quality.
                        Remember the fable, I don't remember exactly, it seems Aesop, in response to the reproach to the lioness that she gives birth to only one lion cub. The lioness answered - yes, one, but I give birth to a LION !!!
                        So, don't brag about the quantity too much. Boast better the circulation of separately published material.
                      7. kalibr
                        25 September 2020 12: 45
                        +1
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Boast better the circulation of separately published material.

                        What does circulation mean? There is no circulation on VO, there are views. You can take a look. And they are also highlighted under each article. Or are you interested in book circulation? In Soviet times, they were 87 thousand and 100 thousand and 500 thousand. Now they are smaller, but this is a general trend for everyone. And about Aesop, don't ... A slave is a slave. Or did he write about you and you managed to give birth to a lion? Share how you did it and how many kg was he born?
                  2. kalibr
                    25 September 2020 09: 13
                    +1
                    By the way, the whole conversation began with the fact that I wrote that swimming in urine in Anapa ... is not the best option for rest.

                    And here's a photo for you. Is this a reason for delight?

                    And, by the way, I have not taken part in this for 20 years and even more ... So all this goes without me. We are not making our urine contribution to this!
                  3. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 25 September 2020 09: 39
                    -1
                    Quote: kalibr

                    And, by the way, I have not taken part in this for 20 years and even more ... So all this goes without me. We are not making our urine contribution to this!

                    If you make your "urine contribution" in Turkey, this does not mean that our citizens are doing the same in Anapa. They, unlike you, have a different upbringing.
                  4. kalibr
                    25 September 2020 12: 36
                    +1
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    They, unlike you, have a different upbringing.

                    Look at the photo again! Does everyone have a different upbringing? This is where the boor is on the boor and the dunka on the dunka? Where do not swear, but talk? "The vanguard of the builders of communism", right? Everyone reads Schiller and Burns in the original, but "mate" is an unknown word to anyone, right? It’s not funny to write that? And why, then, the sea blooms and only last year the residents of the Krasnodar Territory bought 2,6 billion rudders of medicines for gastrointestinal infections. Read what they write on the Internet about your educated citizens ...
                2. Akuzenka
                  Akuzenka 27 November 2020 11: 09
                  0
                  None of us likes to rest in the way many Russians rested (albeit out of necessity) in this years, that is, in Sochi, Anapa and the Crimea, in cramped quarters and crush, swimming half in the sea, half in urine, none of us likes.
                  I congratulate you on this. Who has what hurts, he talks about that. Your followers did not go on holiday abroad this summer and dirtied all the normal resting places, and then began to complain about their own guano. Do not rest in Russia EVER. Russia is much cleaner without you.
  • Icelord
    Icelord 24 September 2020 13: 42
    +1
    That is, in your opinion, the collapse of the Union is worse than WWII? This is a strong approach, but by what criterion is it more destructive?
  • Catfish
    Catfish 22 September 2020 19: 55
    +3
    Hi Albert. hi
    I don’t understand people all day lying on the beaches. In the same place, in a crowd of ordinary people, you can hang yourself out of anguish. That is why I loved the ancient Chersonesos in Sevastopol, because it is for the lack of a beach, in the sense that this beach is understood in general. I came to the rocks, dived, swam and, neither you women with children. no pot-bellied women. smile
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 22 September 2020 20: 06
      +5
      Wasn't much. But he is fascinated by Chersonesos. I love Crimea in all its forms. And sea, and mountain and human.
  • AML
    AML 22 September 2020 19: 43
    +3
    It is very frustrating when buildings are restored by type, but we will assemble it as best we can. And then you look at the handicrafts of the hands, you wiggle and think that it would be better if it lay in the ground.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 22 September 2020 19: 47
    +3
    Thank you, Vyacheslav! hi I completely agree with Mikhail that your article should have been given in the morning. By the evening, you also raised your spirits, but it is better that it was in the morning - minus the site administration.
    To be honest, it's rather difficult for me to imagine Hercules on horseback, and even with a club. smile
    1. AML
      AML 22 September 2020 20: 03
      +2


      And on such a horse?
      This is the largest horse in the world, at the withers it reached 2 meters and 20 centimeters, and weighed 1,52 tons. The stallion has long been dead, only a reminder in the form of a photograph remains: Sampson was born in 1846.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 22 September 2020 20: 08
        +3
        On this one - yes! He will endure two Hercules. smile
    2. Ua3qhp
      Ua3qhp 22 September 2020 20: 08
      +1
      Well, there is a club. It's up to the horse.
      1. BAI
        BAI 23 September 2020 10: 23
        +2
        Shire The Englishman. Weight reaches 800-1220 kg. There are specimens weighing up to one and a half tons. Features of the breed: Height - 170-190 cm.There were cases when the growth of representatives of the breed reached 2 m.

        Well, our domestic Vladimirsky heavy truck is a little smaller.
  • Liam
    Liam 22 September 2020 19: 59
    0
    И
    as we well know, Alexander the Great, who found himself in Gordion in 334 BC. e., did not get involved with this difficult matter, but simply cut it!


    The myth ...
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 September 2020 21: 51
      +5
      And we are poor and did not know !!! wink
      On the other hand - a beautiful myth and to the point is mentioned in the work of the Author!
      Yours faithfully,
      Ps women making a compliment, you also speak the truth ???? If so, I'm sorry for you.
      1. Liam
        Liam 22 September 2020 21: 58
        0
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        And we are poor and did not know !!

        Well ... now you know
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        women complimenting

        It seems that you are running into a compliment)
  • Catfish
    Catfish 22 September 2020 20: 04
    +3
    Here is our colleague its 2100(Alexander) forwarded it to me and asked me to insert it, which I do.
    Konstantin!
    Please insert a photo taken on Sunday, this is a bas-relief from the pediment of a lady of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries.
    Let the connoisseurs frolic

    1. ee2100
      ee2100 22 September 2020 21: 51
      +4
      I asked to publish a photo of Konstantin since. for technical reasons myself, I cannot. I thought to draw the community's attention to the quality of the bas-reliefs. I understand that my photo is not professional and was taken with a phone, but the quality of the texture is quite distinguishable. And here's a simple question. My bas-relief, or rather its quality and performance, which has been lying for more than 200 years in a basement in a heap of rubbish and earth, is noticeably lower than that of the Turkish ones. Although Turkish, as they are idantified, is 18 -19 thousand years old.
      And here is a simple question, maybe this is a Turkish remake? Those. a copy from a copy, well, as with our annals. The story that was told here that this kind of obligation, about which it is written on the bas-relief, is not entirely correct, or maybe there was originally a scroll on the bas-relief, and then, with "bad" copying, it turned into a club. Here is the story sucked, well, let's say from the finger. And as Vyacheslav writes, people defend themselves against these "artifacts".
      1. Icelord
        Icelord 24 September 2020 13: 21
        +1
        Alexander, where is the bas-relief from?
    2. Icelord
      Icelord 24 September 2020 13: 08
      +2
      It is poorly visible, but the mill is visible. Flemish?
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 24 September 2020 13: 13
        +1
        This is to her2100 (Alexander), I only work here as a repeater. ))
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 24 September 2020 14: 29
          +2
          Alas, Alexander doesn't answer. And I'm so curious about where the kamenyuk comes from, I can’t do it))
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 24 September 2020 15: 38
            +1
            Igor, and you write to him in a personal, for nothing that it exists. All the more so because he himself is interested in discussing this "stone". smile
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 24 September 2020 15: 48
              +2
              I'm on the phone, that's the thing
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 24 September 2020 15: 50
                +2
                Yes, he also sits on the "Android". I'll try to write to him myself.
            2. Icelord
              Icelord 24 September 2020 15: 52
              +2
              Wrote. thank
  • AML
    AML 22 September 2020 20: 23
    +1
    Quote: Liam
    И
    as we well know, Alexander the Great, who found himself in Gordion in 334 BC. e., did not get involved with this difficult matter, but simply cut it!


    The myth ...

    I am always moved by phrases like
    as we well know
    ... Here just now the debate was what Napoleon flopped to Moscow and then a bunch of versions. And here we know well. Nu-nu.
  • Xnumx vis
    Xnumx vis 22 September 2020 20: 32
    +7
    “Crimea, in cramped and crowded conditions, bathing half in the sea, half in urine, none of us likes.” About urine in the sea .. Maybe you shouldn't send a small need there?
    Well, you do not like Crimea. This is your own business. Everyone has different tastes. But why shit? Obviously, if you are writing about horsemen with clubs, you should not pour urine on domestic resorts ..
    This is the Sevastopol beach.
    1. AML
      AML 22 September 2020 21: 36
      0
      This is a stray. I heard a ringing, but does not know where he is. Swimming at the World Cup means that the water is very warm, more than 22 degrees. + in some stagnant places there is algae, which after bathing leave the skin feeling like mucus. An analogy is Odessa Arcadia. Such a sensitive comrade, from the sight of the North Sea, would have lost consciousness.
      1. Xnumx vis
        Xnumx vis 22 September 2020 21: 50
        0
        Quote: AML
        This is a stray. I heard a ringing, but does not know where he is. Swimming at the World Cup means that the water is very warm, more than 22 degrees.

        In Sevastopol they say water in the sea is like fresh milk. Here comrade.
        writes interesting articles, but without interest in his own country. Well, well ... His right.
        1. AML
          AML 22 September 2020 21: 53
          0
          We don’t know what country he is for. Maybe he's a Turk :)
          1. Xnumx vis
            Xnumx vis 22 September 2020 21: 55
            +2
            Our it. Penzyak. In principle, there is nothing wrong with seeing the world Learn new, interesting and useful. But do not shit on the Fatherland.
  • nnz226
    nnz226 22 September 2020 22: 17
    -2
    The author of the article is a liberal ??? Does he not like the Black Sea at the peak of the tourist season? disdain? And on Turkish beaches at the peak of the season, does one hectare of sea have to swim, or is there a crowd in half the sea, half urine? If Russia doesn't like it - a suitcase, a railway station, a gayropa! With black migrants!
    1. kalibr
      23 September 2020 07: 11
      +3
      Quote: nnz226
      If Russia doesn't like it - a suitcase, a railway station, a gayropa!

      I don’t like Russia, but the disorder that still exists in it. And it is not necessary to leave them, but to correct them as much as possible. This is the duty of every patriot of Russia. At ... of course, the "duty" is different .... And, by the way, the question is: what about you, my dear, that you so like living in a shit?
  • Olddetractor
    Olddetractor 22 September 2020 23: 50
    0
    Phrygian horseman. Figure: from the book: V. Vuksic, Z. Grbasic. Cavalry. The history of fighting elite 650BC - AD1914. L .: Cassell, 1994. P.41

    In the picture, a Phrygian rider falls from a horse. A saddle without stirrups, an ax can only be swung to maintain balance, it will not be possible to chop. A man with a club is also in the saddle without stirrups
    1. kalibr
      23 September 2020 07: 09
      +2
      Quote: Olddetractor
      A man with a club is also in the saddle without stirrups

      There were no stepladders then. Only a spur on one leg, and even then not always.
      1. Olddetractor
        Olddetractor 23 September 2020 08: 03
        +2
        Yes, there were no stirrups, it was very difficult to cut from a horse. And there really was one spur))
    2. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 23 September 2020 12: 33
      +3
      Uh ... Do you seriously think that the presence of stirrups is a prerequisite for felling from a horse?
      1. Olddetractor
        Olddetractor 23 September 2020 14: 03
        0
        Of course not, but very desirable. In the picture, the rider strikes from above
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 23 September 2020 22: 47
          +2
          In those days, there was still no long-bladed weapon suitable for full-fledged cutting from a horse, it will appear at the turn of the era, and it will be the Gallic spatha.
          But in general, the stirrups did not give the opportunity to cut with spatami, but the ability to use a heavy pike from a horse and ram attacks by cavalry in the forehead. To work with a spata, there were enough "horned saddles", and to disperse those who were already running - a light ax or club.
          1. Icelord
            Icelord 24 September 2020 13: 12
            +1
            Yes, but the horned saddle is the late Roman Empire, Alexander the Great somehow managed with a blanket. So I think it's about training
  • Gato
    Gato 23 September 2020 01: 22
    +1
    none other than ... Hercules

    Well, this character is so ancient and was held in high esteem by so many peoples that it's scary to think.
    1. cost
      cost 23 September 2020 03: 20
      +2
      A dynasty of Macedonian kings led their family from Hercules - through the kings of Argos, from whom at one time it branched off - and therefore, Alexander the Great himself. Therefore, it is not surprising that among the Greek-Macedonian diasporas, who remained to live on the territory of the fragments of the empire created by Alexander (and disintegrated immediately after his death), Hercules was one of the most revered deities.
  • depressant
    depressant 23 September 2020 10: 00
    +3
    As always, Vyacheslav Olegovich has a cute peaceful theme on which you can relax your soul. And, as always, informative. Finally I found out the origin of the Gordian knot. Dogwood was ripped off, so)))
    In the Caucasus, dogwood in the form of bushes. At least where she once lived. But where she lived was a resort. Which from childhood I ate above the roof, too much sun - for months on the beach, which turned out to be harmful, unacceptable for my northern body, mentally annoying and for the rest of my life. Therefore, when the word "resort" - unpleasant associations. And even with the word "rest")))
    1. kalibr
      23 September 2020 10: 39
      +2
      Quote: depressant
      Therefore, when the word "resort" - unpleasant associations.
      Well, my daughter, even under an umbrella in Turkey, often sits in a dress and does not wear shorts. It sunbathes, it turns out, only when it swims and then ... that's quite enough. By the way, the Turks look very disapprovingly even at the English women in shorts. But women in dresses and trousers, and even in hats and turbans are treated very well, they say respectfully "madam", that is, much better than those "in shorts." They even noticed it. "Why are you served the cocktail first when I asked you first?" East is a delicate matter! And then the "resort" resort strife. There was a hotel without children, without annoying animation and aerobics by the pool - "one, two, three, four lift your legs wider." Since mainly Englishmen rest in it, there was a lot of pork for them, typical English tea at 5 o'clock, silence ... All around, there are a lot of interesting places where you can go by car. In a word, this is a real resort!
      1. depressant
        depressant 23 September 2020 11: 20
        +1
        Yes, a secluded place ...)))
        I understand the inhabitants of Central Russia. Having a resort on an annual schedule is a way of life. Apparently, it cannot be otherwise. Apparently people burn out. But since I once had a lifestyle resort in the summer, I am allergic to it ...
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, that's what interested me. The Cimmerians are in the middle of the map you have given. But more recently I happened to read that some historians - either ancient or modern - locate Cimmerians in the Ural Mountains. Where Arkaim is. Were they everywhere?))
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 23 September 2020 12: 38
          0
          Not Vyacheslav Olegovich, but I will answer: google "Srubnaya culture", here is its western part - these are the Cimmerians.
          But to Sintashta - and Arkaim it is - it is not at all sideways except that in the same territory in half a thousand years.
          Although, of course, there is Otroshchenko's opinion about the direct succession of Srubnaya and Andronovskaya (and even through Abashevskaya), but this is an owl on the globe.
          The main dispute, where it formed, is in the Middle Volga region or in the Northern Black Sea region. The second version is closer to me, in the Volga region log cabins are like sports sneakers for a tuxedo with a bow tie, not at all in the subject of their simultaneous autochthons.
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 23 September 2020 11: 14
    +1
    The Greeks in general have a lot of things connected with Hercules, I remember at the 1st or 2nd year I listened to a classmate's report on the topic: the influence of Hercules on the formation of the image of Jesus Christ.
  • kalibr
    23 September 2020 12: 17
    +1
    Quote: depressant
    Were they everywhere?))

    No, they went there! They made military campaigns through the Caucasus and invaded Asia Minor and Assyria. Why they were drawn there by a separate question ...
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 23 September 2020 12: 44
      +1
      How much did you pull?
      The first general warrior people in the Old World, and a nomadic one, and not on chariots, but on horses, and in conditions of known trade routes, and the relative - the Bronze Age, of course - the cheapness of metals.
      I would not have resisted in their place either
      1. kalibr
        23 September 2020 13: 14
        0
        This is all true, Anatoly, but historians are now inclined to explain the reasons for such long and long campaigns by natural-geographical factors influencing the life of nomads: epizootics, climate changes ...
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 23 September 2020 22: 42
          +1
          Yes, I am aware of the last ten years - the heyday of paleosoil science (especially the North Caucasus) at the junction of the Bronze and the RZhV, and the Cimmerian community passed through it to Asia Minor.
          There, everything is more complicated a little.
          At one time, cultures were identified with one or another people, indicated in ancient writings, according to chronological and geographical characteristics, and further to the East, they also included all adjacent cultures with similar implements, types of dwellings, ceramics, variations of the funerary, and other basic archaeological concepts.
          At the exit, for example, we have Cimmerians from Turkey to the Urals. Scythians from the Northern Black Sea coast to Altai. Sarmatians from the Rhine and the same Altai, moreover, three periods, and in the Middle Sarmatian period there are eastern and western traditions, which, apart from Sarmatian in name, are not alike at all.
          And this is only along the chain of succession Cimmerians-Scythians-Sarmatians.
          And then there is kimmerization, skifizatsich, sarmatization, and other zations. And also waves of migrations both within these ecumene, and from them or in them.
          In general, everything there is no easier than in Bronze, even more confusing. And with written - almost nothing. And there are almost no adequate generalizing works, most archaeologists are directly tied to a very narrow period, which is also territorially limited, and it's good if it is a region, and not a separate monument.

          At the exit we have a puzzle of thousands and thousands of pieces, and a very rough idea of ​​what should be there in the end.
          1. Operator
            Operator 23 September 2020 23: 50
            0
            The point is not in the narrowness of specialization of the overwhelming majority of historians / archaeologists, but in their professional inertia - unwillingness to use the latest methods of ethnic identification of the same Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, and then everywhere.

            For example, a genetic analysis of the Y-chromosomes of bone remains from the burials of the Cimmerians in Asia Minor showed that this people consisted of mestizos of the indigenous inhabitants of Eastern Siberia (Q1) and the Black Sea Aryans (R1a). Those. The Cimmerians came to the Anatolian Peninsula from the east and represented the first wave of Asian peoples previously assimilated by the Black Sea Aryans who migrated from west to east.

            The second wave of Asian mestizos was represented by the Scythians (J2 + R1a), the third by the Sarmatians (R1b + R1a + C2), the fourth by the Huns (Q1 + C2), the fifth by the Pechenegs and Khazars (J2 + C2), the sixth by the Ugrians and Bulgars ( R1b + C2), the seventh - by Mongols (C2) and Tatars (N1c1 + R1a).
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek 24 September 2020 11: 39
              +1
              Are you somehow connected with paleogenetics as a science? Do you do research in this area and by specialization? I suspect not.
              According to the same ancient Black Sea region, thousands of skeletons are raised annually from the blind pits. You-xia-chi.
              Are you offering them all for sequencing?
              It would be great, I don’t deny it. Expensive, of course, but great.
              So far, this is no longer a fantasy, but it is still not a very close prospect. In 10-15 years, maybe.
              1. Operator
                Operator 24 September 2020 12: 15
                -2
                I am not associated with paleogenetics. Moreover, I am not professionally connected with history and archeology. In this regard, you suggest that I not publish comments in the "History" section.

                "You-sya-chi" - should this be understood as "well, very much"? laughing

                For your understanding, the material for determining the haplogroups of bone remains is taken from the remains of the nerve tissue of the teeth, which is quite amenable to laboratory testing (the current record for determining the haplogroup is 44000 years, according to the definition of the haplogroup subclade - 10000 years). Within the specified 10000 years, testing of bone remains from archaeological excavations in the West is now being carried out almost in a continuous manner.

                It is another matter that the materials of continuous testing indicating specific haplogroups and subclades are published extremely rarely, since they are accompanied by political scandals - for example, in Egypt, after the demonstration during a television interview of the haplogroup of the Egyptian pharaoh belonging to the carriers of R1b (who had transit through North Africa for 5 thousand years ago), the local government forbade the publication of the results of genetic analyzes of bone remains. The reason is simple as a nail - the overwhelming majority of the population of Africa (including Egypt) belongs to the Hamites (carriers of haplogroup E), and the top of ancient Egypt (according to unofficial data from the analysis of bone remains from the Valley of the Kings) - to the future inhabitants of Western Europe, having similarly formed the ruling layer of ancient Egypt ...

                It's abject, however.
                1. Icelord
                  Icelord 24 September 2020 18: 25
                  0
                  Operator of delusional operations
                2. Icelord
                  Icelord 24 September 2020 18: 27
                  0
                  Duc this pseudo-academic, as he forgot, like invented science, a clown. Eeee resurrects mammoths, Russifies Etruscans.
                3. Icelord
                  Icelord 24 September 2020 18: 33
                  0
                  He pretended to be a geneticist, but genetics are driven by a broomstick.
                4. AllBiBek
                  AllBiBek 24 September 2020 19: 34
                  0
                  I heard.
                  I will keep silent.
                  Consider any of your knowledge a) knowledge b) truthful - go for it.
                  So after all, a) and b) have already been decided for you by those who undressed at the level that they accepted, and continue to chew.
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 24 September 2020 19: 58
                    0
                    Translated into Russian: "My inertia is my wealth" - AllBiBek (C) laughing
                    1. AllBiBek
                      AllBiBek 24 September 2020 22: 55
                      0
                      You are joking, comrade.
                      All right.
                      Ask the correct question for period-location-area.
                      In which you think / think / nayutubilis yourself a specialist.
                      Then we'll see.
                      Weak?
                      1. Operator
                        Operator 24 September 2020 23: 57
                        0
                        The question is - where is the location of the Battle of Kulikovo?
                      2. AllBiBek
                        AllBiBek 25 September 2020 14: 45
                        0
                        Kimovsky district of the Tula region, the place of the confluence of the Nepryadva with the Don.
                        So what?
                      3. Operator
                        Operator 25 September 2020 15: 19
                        0
                        The correct answer: the site of the Battle of Kulikovo is located in the area of ​​the mouth of the Nepryadva River, flowing from Lake Volovo (the mouth - that is, the mouth was called the source of the river until the 18th century).
        2. Icelord
          Icelord 24 September 2020 18: 18
          0
          Don't you get tired of it? Well, the truth is nonsense. You believe?
      2. kalibr
        24 September 2020 05: 50
        0
        Quote: AllBiBek
        At the exit we have a puzzle of thousands and thousands of pieces, and a very rough idea of ​​what should be there in the end.

        + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
  • tacet
    tacet 23 September 2020 12: 21
    0
    Vyacheslav, if you are already going "to the Vikings", go at the end of March (March 28 is celebrated as Lothbrok's day). I was curious about your observations.
    1. kalibr
      23 September 2020 13: 17
      0
      Dear Vladimir! Thanks for the advice. But ... everything does not depend on me! The timing of the granddaughter's teaching, and a number of other factors. As the saying goes: God is his, and the devil is his!
  • Icelord
    Icelord 24 September 2020 09: 42
    +1
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich. An interesting article, although in my humble opinion the identity of the "rider of the clubman" with Hercules is a little stretched
    1. kalibr
      24 September 2020 16: 11
      +1
      Quote: Icelord
      the identity of the "rider of the clubman" with Hercules is slightly stretched

      I know about this rather only a little more than yours ... So I can not say either "yes" or "no".
      1. Icelord
        Icelord 24 September 2020 16: 38
        +1
        This is of course, but I have not seen these bas-reliefs. There will be something to dig.
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 24 September 2020 16: 40
          +1
          Thank you very much, now I would like to sort out the dates.
          1. Icelord
            Icelord 24 September 2020 18: 43
            +1
            Or maybe this is Maximus? Thracian Soldier Emperor?
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 25 September 2020 06: 31
              +1
              Excuse me. Maximus was of course hefty, but the joke is still stupid
  • businessv
    businessv 26 September 2020 22: 07
    0
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk

    And, by the way, I have not taken part in this for 20 years and even more ... So all this goes without me. We are not making our urine contribution to this!

    If you make your "urine contribution" in Turkey, this does not mean that our citizens are doing the same in Anapa. They, unlike you, have a different upbringing.
    Friends, reading your pick, it seems that both of you have stuffy ears! Or you don’t understand what you are writing to each other. Why insult each other because of conflicting views ?! I always read your posts with pleasure, but today you have surpassed yourself in tactlessness and bias! I am sincerely sorry that you are wasting your time on such nonsense! I liked the article, except for this very moment, but this is a trifle and a personal opinion, which I simply did not pay attention to. hi
  • Diviz
    Diviz 25 November 2020 23: 20
    0
    https://history.wikireading.ru/195982
    Here's an interesting conclusion, but what it means is planning for children.