Military Review

Following the "Armata": the crisis of the nuclear submarine forces of Russia

104

Photo: CrazyMk / forums.airbase.ru


We continue the topic of our submarine forces and the not very pleasant situation associated with them. On the one hand, it's nice to know that if something happens, our underwater monsters will tear down one continent from the face of the earth, seemingly completely inhabited by enemies. Even in revenge.

On the other hand, I would like to think that these are not fantastic dreams. That our boats really go fast, they dive deeply, they cannot be easily detected, and weapon they are guaranteed to us by everything that must guarantee. That is, security and the absence of even thoughts from a potential adversary that he will be able to become probable with impunity.

But the sensational incident with the Omsk submarine, which for some reason surfaced during the exercise near Alaska, makes one wonder if everything was so cloudless.


Photo: zaksobr.kamchatka.ru

It is clear that our military department will not tell the truth under torture, but there are not many reasons that can drive a nuclear submarine to the surface. Therefore, it is clear why the Americans are so worried.

Experts knowledgeable in business naval, argue that a submarine can surface in three cases.

The first - if there is an accident, fire, emergency on board. This is clear.

The second - if there is a sick or wounded on board, who must be urgently picked up. Also understandable. The boat comes up and waits for the helicopter, which takes the person whose life is in danger.

The third is "if provided for in the exercise plan." Very vague wording.

It's hard to say what actually happened. The Omsk crew is very experienced, awarded with various prizes for performing various training tasks, but still some sediment remained. Yes, they did not surface in American territorial waters, it is. There are no reasons for concern, but the fact that our Ministry of Defense, usually very verbose in describing victories, has modestly kept silent, leaving the media to unwind the situation, already speaks volumes.

And God forbid that "Omsk" really surfaced, just to show off in front of the Americans. Put the sickle in the "window to America", so to speak.

Yesterday (that is, 10 years ago) we talked, and talked a lot, about the general rearmament of all nuclear submarines with Caliber cruise missiles. The idea, in fact, is a good one, if only not an excessive overestimation of the usefulness of such a decision in terms of the fact that "Caliber" is a good missile, but certainly not "Caliber" alone should strengthen the country's defense capability.

Nevertheless, many media outlets have published, at the suggestion of the Ministry of Defense, information that all upgraded Project 949A submarines will be equipped with Kalibr missile launchers. The ammunition load will be 72 units per boat.


For Anteev, this is a logical decision. Still, this is the most numerous type of nuclear-powered submarines capable of solving tasks of countering any grouping of enemy ships.

Of the 11 built boats ("Belgorod" does not count) 4 have already gone under the knife, 5 after repairs of varying complexity continue to serve, and two ("Irkutsk" and "Chelyabinsk") went for this very modernization, which will last until 2023.

With the rest, everything is still very unclear.

In fact, the requirements of our command for the fastest introduction of new types of weapons are understandable. Long ago, since the beginning of the new century, it became clear that the weapons systems that our fleet uses are not asking for, they require updating. Real, not for the press, "next year we will have a miracle weapon", but real things that will make potential opponents really think about it without quotation marks.

By the way, not only Antei, but also Project 971 and 945A submarines, decided to upgrade to the "X +" level. Quite justified.

Who should have done this? Naturally, manufacturers. For boats of project 949A, proposals for improvement were developed at Central Design Bureau "Rubin", work on boats of Project 945 was puzzled by Central Design Bureau "Lazurit", and the boats of Project 971 were to be modernized at SPMBM "Malachite".

The money was allocated by the budget, which the enterprises, of course, knew about. And with pleasure we were preparing to carry out the so-called "medium repair" for the boats in 2009, which is carried out in the middle of the estimated service life of the ship. It was supposed to repair all the systems of the boats, and replace the electronics as needed with more modern ones. And the pinnacle of the repair was to be the installation of the KR "Caliber" on the boats.

What's on the list?

Project 949A. 7 boats, of which 2 are in a state of repair, 2 are modernized.


Photo: http://mil.ru

Project 971 (9) boats, 10 (4) under repair, modernized 5.


The difference is one boat because of the K-331 Magadan, which is under repair, after which it is planned to be leased to India.

Project 945A. 2 boats, both in service, repair and modernization in the plans.


In general, over 11 years we received only 6 properly modernized submarines. This is not much considering how much money and businesses were involved.

"Caliber". Since we are talking about a total "calibration" of all possible ships, then this is the consideration. It is estimated that today the total salvo of all our surface ships will be about one and a half hundred "Caliber". A sad figure when compared with the capabilities of the US Navy in terms of Tomahawks.

Here, many experts openly oppose the construction of small missile ships of the Buyan-M type, since the ships cost money, there are many problems with them, and the real possibilities are so-so.

Here I agree on two points, because the capabilities of a cruise missile boat in the Caspian Sea is one thing, but a nuclear submarine with the same missiles 200 km from the coast of North (for example) America is completely different.

And there are more goals, and you can deliver without problems ...

A nuclear submarine with cruise missiles will definitely be more effective than an RTO near its coast. Although the MRK is also a very necessary thing, because it will not allow anyone to walk calmly off the coast.

That is, MRK is a purely defensive weapon (okay, almost), and a nuclear submarine is also almost defensive.

But nuclear submarines are like ours, which cannot be said about our small surface carriers of cruise missiles. They have one more negative place. These are Chinese engines. Alas, which are very far from ideal, but ours are even worse. Russian ship diesel engines are worse than Chinese ones in the sense that they simply do not exist. And this is a scrap, against which, unfortunately, there is no reception.

And if we disagree with the opinion of those who argue that it was possible not to spend money on the mosquito fleet for now, but to "do everything" to modernize submarines, then by the turn of 2023 (or a little later, as we usually do) we would have received a doubling of the theoretical salvo of "Caliber".

But you must admit that doubling is not zeroing. Doubling has tangible potential for both us and the enemy.

But somehow it so happened that the work did not go as we would like ideally. One can only guess why we went along two roads at once, and got stuck on both.

The construction of RTOs stopped at number 12. And 12 MRKs are just 96 launch cells for Calibers. That is, comparable to two submarines. Not enough.


And with submarines, too, not everything is beautiful. Modernization works are proceeding very slowly. Moreover, there is information that the modernization work was constantly being "refined". To say that all boats that are under repair will be properly modernized is somewhat ... imprudent.

The Ministry of Defense does not provide normal information, and it is also not very correct to believe rumors.

However, it is thanks to the information that leaks into the "open air" that many experts conclude that the repairs are going a little differently from what was presented earlier.

"Irkutsk" and "Chelyabinsk" will clearly not meet the deadline, we will be able to find out about this in the near future. Work with these boats has been going on since 2013, and for some reason there is no information about how close they are to completion.

Of the boats of Project 971 sent for repair, only K-328 and K-461 are undergoing normal medium repair, after which the service life of the ship is extended by 10 years. On the rest of the boats, the technical readiness is being restored and individual systems are being finalized.

But if the boats do not undergo proper repair and modernization, they will also remain at the level of the 90s of the last century, that is, thirty years ago. This is an unpleasant moment.

In fact, modernization, if done with direct hands and with proper financial support, as the experience of the same Americans shows, is a big deal. Indeed, the US Navy includes submarines of the Ohio and Los Angeles classes produced in the first half of the 80s. But no one would dare to call these ships floating misunderstandings. This is even nowadays quite real combat units.

And the whole point is solely in timely upgrades and the amounts spent on this matter.

We know how to build luxurious and scary submarines. This is an indisputable fact, and there is no point in discussing it. Our engineers and designers have created several families of simply magnificent submarines that will be able to hold our shield until new ships enter service. The same "Boreas".

But boats that last 20 years need to be up to date. Reduced noise, increased autonomy, more efficient combat systems and advanced weapons.

Isn't our design bureau able to reduce the noise level of the same boats of Project 945 and 949? Yes, Project 971 is already good in terms of silence, if you add "Caliber" - it will be really very serious.

We do not have as many submarines as the Americans.


The alignment is not at all in our favor, and we have only one way out - to take quality versus quantity. Our 36 nuclear submarines versus 70 American ones is not a very pleasant situation. And we just have to raise our boats (I hope everyone understands that building 30 new submarines in a short time is not about Russia) to such a level of superiority when the quality of characteristics and weapons levels out the quantity.

Our submariners have at their disposal long-range anti-submarine weapons in the form of the Answer anti-submarine missiles and the Lasta anti-torpedoes, which in battle can provide our boats with a noticeable advantage, since the Americans with such weapons are worse. More precisely, they do not have it in this quality even on the new Virginias.

If you look at what the developed ATT / Tripwire has been removed from ships at all, then you can breathe out for now. But this does not mean at all that you can relax. On the contrary, the Americans will not rest until they create a new anti-torpedo. After all, the US Navy is written and financed with a capital letter.

Therefore, with a share of regret, we have to admit that those astronomical amounts in dollars are much larger than in rubles, put the American submarine fleet one step higher than the Russian one.

Salvation, as already mentioned, is in modernizations. But here we again have a gap, because so far all plans cannot boast of fast and high-quality implementation. "Irkutsk", "Chelyabinsk", "Leopard", "Wolf" - that's all that is available today in terms of boats that have received due modernization.

At the Army-2020 forum (which for some reason serves precisely to declare such things), it was announced that two more boats of Project 971 would be modernized.

Of course, it’s good to hear such statements in January and not in August, but not to postpone the forum for this? Although it is still not entirely clear why such statements can be made only on the forum and documents must be signed without fail.

In any case, plus two more submarines. Okay, of course, but right now it is “only” 2020, as you can see. And almost 10 years have passed since the momentous decision to carry out modernizations was made. And the boats, one might say, are still there ... In the queue for repairs.

And 10 years is 10 years. The boats are 10 years older. Have aged by as much as 10 years. Mechanisms, pipelines, wires and cables. I generally want to cry about electronics ...


And at such a pace in some five years, we will observe the adoption of completely different decisions: on the expediency of further operation of the boats.

Some experts from among those caring for the state of the fleet believe that at such a pace there is no longer a question of average repair and modernization. And the boats of the project 971 will wait for the same maintenance of technical readiness at the same level, coupled with minor upgrades, as far as the budget allows.

This is a pretty logical statement, since the ruble has depreciated greatly since 2009. And for the same amount, it is simply unrealistic to carry out the volume of work in 2020 at the level of 2014.

Accordingly, we have a very unpleasant picture. The boats of Project 971 will be kept afloat, the same may apply to the boats of Project 949, which will serve indefinitely "as is".

It is unpleasant. The P-700 "Granite" anti-ship missile system, created in the 70s and 80s by the great Chelomey, was still a serious weapon at the beginning of this century. But now - excuse me, "Granite" is outdated both morally and physically. It's just an old missile that certainly poses some threat to the enemy, but ... But it's a very old missile. And it is not difficult to neutralize it with modern weapons.

It's unpleasant. And what's more unpleasant is that the ships of Project 949A have very good potential in terms of upgrades. Which will not be used, and the boats by the turn of 2030 will simply exhaust their resource and will be written off.

And nothing can be done about it, because the submarine is not a surface cruiser. This surface can hang around in the water area of ​​some inland sea, frightening its backward neighbors with its appearance. Demonstrating the flag, so to speak.

The submarine, alas, is burdened with tasks of a somewhat different plan. And he, unlike his surface colleague, has to transfer loads of a slightly different plan.

And boat hulls that were not mentioned in the general list. They will also get tired and outdated by 10 years ...

What are the options? Well, yes, build new boats. Urgently, at Stakhanov's pace.

And here again, not everything is smooth. Russia today has one nuclear submarine, thank God, a universal one that can be built. Project 855M Yasen-M submarine missile cruiser.


Plus the project 955 strategic submarine Borey, which, in fact, is a very highly specialized ship.


Boats are expensive. Not just expensive, but insanely expensive. For 50 billion rubles of Ash is a lot. "Northwind" is half the price. But the most unpleasant thing is that Ash itself requires modernization.

And what do we have in the end?

As mentioned above, we have everything:
Project 949A. 7 boats, of which 2 are in a state of repair.
Project 971. 9 boats, of which 4 are under repair.
Project 945. 2 boats, 1 under repair.
Project 945A. 2 boats, both in service.
Project 671RTMK. 2 boats, 1 under repair.

A total of 22 boats, of which 14 are ready for missions.

And to replace all this rather motley company, Russia can build 9 "Ash" and 10 "Boreyev". In numbers, everything looks good, in terms of time - terrible. The construction period of one submarine cruiser is 7-8 years, and we may have "shifts to the right". That is, the "Voronezh" and "Vladivostok" pledged this year may just go out for testing, and some of the "old people" will have to be written off.

2030 will be the year of a certain Rubicon, when it turns out that old boats will go to the scrap, and new ones will not be built yet. And this year, unfortunately, is not far off.

If in 2010, according to the plans, the modernization of the third generation boats would begin, then this transition could be significantly smoothed, since the mid-life repair would extend the life of the boats, which could easily ensure the entry into service of new ships.

And it turns out that against the background of huge costs we will have a reduction in the fleet.

And the last thing. Whatever the modern "Ash" is, it is smaller than the predecessors of the third generation. And with all its advantages, the small-sized "Ash" (and "Ash-M" is even smaller) can take on board no more than 50 "Calibers", while the boat of Project 949A can carry 72.

Losing a volley is serious.


As a result, we can draw the following conclusion: not the best times await us. We cannot quickly and efficiently modernize old boats, we cannot quickly and efficiently build new ones to replace them, we can spend huge amounts of money and wait for the result.

It is clear that in the near future we do not have a full-fledged war in our plans. However, the weakening of our underwater shield and sword may instill illusions in some countries ... not necessary for us in the first place.

How to get out of this situation and who can take advantage of this situation? About this in the third (and last) part.

Materials used:
https://topwar.ru/156666-antitorpedy-my-poka-vperedi-no-nas-uzhe-obgonjajut.html
https://topwar.ru/41916-glavkom-vmf-rasskazal-o-buduschem-podvodnogo-flota.html
https://topwar.ru/138217-novye-podlodki-dlya-rossiyskogo-flota-na-stapelyah-i-v-planah.html
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  1. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 16 September 2020 06: 03 New
    +2
    I will draw an answer for you:
    As a result, we can draw the following conclusion: not the best times await us. We cannot quickly and efficiently modernize old boats, we cannot quickly and efficiently build new ones to replace them, we can spend huge amounts of money and wait for the result.


    How to get out of this situation and who can take advantage of this situation?

    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 16 September 2020 06: 11 New
      15

      How to get out of this situation
      put on even more rose-colored glasses, and go whistling "everything is fine, beautiful marquise" ...
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 16 September 2020 08: 50 New
        +4
        put on even more rosy glasses,

        --and stick a plaster cast with bruliks - be proud of the wealth of wives and mistresses
        Let DeripaskaLisins click around the world: 3000 carats from each Russian billionaire to renew the fleet (on top of taxes)
        which millionaires would like to classify themselves as billionaires?
    2. Per se.
      Per se. 16 September 2020 06: 58 New
      17
      Quote: ROSS 42
      I will draw your answer

      Yes, the cut from the cartoon looks very close in essence ... The Soviet margin of safety is running out, and if the process is accelerated, with sabotage, sabotage, and, even just stupidity, from incompetent but influential figures, the picture will be depressing. Who creates "platforms" on a crude, expensive and complex base? Paraphrasing the words from the song, - platforms are not born, they become platforms when equipment is time-tested, has proven itself in the army, is technologically advanced, mastered by industry. No, the same "Armata" has a special path, like other PR projects, such as "Poseidon" or "Petrel". When they are sawing the loot, someone will always ruin the vital, but will lead to the new Lebedenko tank or "water-armored destroyer".

      I don’t want to be a pessimist, but I don’t want to be a jingoist even more. Personally, I do not see a bright future in capitalism, in an alien pole of power, according to someone else's rules, under the Fed and the dollar, with oligarch brothers and their junk kept by enemies, with renegade traitors who betrayed the idea and the party ... But, I I believe in Russia, in the potential of our people, in the potential of socialism, under which the Soviet Union became a superpower, created a great army and navy, ensuring confidence in the future, pride in our country. Only by returning our pole of strength will we really return the multipolar world. Then, there will be a fleet, and apple trees will bloom on Mars, and not the probable "zombieland", with ghouls on billions of ghouls.
      1. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 16 September 2020 07: 29 New
        13
        Quote: Per se.
        I don't want to be pessimistic, but hurray-patriot do not want to be even more.

        yes good
        Nice remark. Exactly!
        And from these jingoistic patriots I want to hear not just: "You will be up" or "Yalichnov is pleased" but the specifics in the answers to the questions posed ...
        And then you read some unaddressed opus, and there is a doubt that we live with them in the same country.
        1. Beregovic_1
          Beregovic_1 16 September 2020 20: 40 New
          +3
          I’m not a urapatriot at all, but the article, to put it mildly, is about nothing. On the one hand, in some moments everything is even worse than the author wrote: 1. There are no calibers on boats other than projects 636 and 885. The missile systems on 971 and 949 projects were not modernized. 2. Problems with torpedoes and the lack of counter-torpedoes. 3. Problems with the training and manning of the crews (for this reason, the vaunted 971s rattle like buckets of bolts all over the Barents Sea). 4. Problems with basing points (that Vilyuchinsk, that Vidyaevo, Gadzhievo are quite criminally prone settlements with high prices and lack of normal living conditions). 5. Problems with the new missile system on the 955 project. 6. There are not enough MAPLs and diesel-electric submarines even to support the deployment of SSBNs (however, there are practically no ASW ships and aircraft either). 7. Ship repair enterprises that provide modernization and repair have lost their competence, personnel and are financed intermittently, hence, instead of modernization - HTG. 8. Instead of the necessary MAPLs, the slipways on SEVMASH are occupied by incomprehensible boats for the GUGI. Now a spoonful of honey: 1. Despite the fact that Sevmash is a monopolist in the construction of nuclear submarines, all slipways are occupied, and after the completion of the pledged ones, there will be new bookmarks, otherwise the plant will stop and lose competence and personnel. 2. The construction time of hulls, due to the serial production and the well-organized production of chains, is reduced from 12 years to 7-8 years, which in the presence of 10 slipways and uniform fillings allows launching 2 boats a year. 3. Not all 971 are as ancient as the author writes. "Cheetah" was handed over to the Navy in 2003. 4. We do not have such tasks as presence in all seas of the World Ocean, therefore some of the tasks can be performed by diesel-electric submarines, of which there are many. 5. Boats 971, 945 and 949 of the project, after modernization, run off until 2035 - 2040. Therefore, I do not see reasons for outright panic, the work is creaking, but it is going on. To teach the author the materiel.
          1. Grits
            Grits 17 September 2020 15: 40 New
            +1
            Quote: Beregovyhok_1
            in the presence of 10 slipways

            If memory serves ...
            Shop 50. accommodates 4 boats
            Shop 55. holds like not 6, but 9 pieces. there are 3 pieces in length. place. (although I may be wrong, it was a long time ago)
            And you forgot about the "secret" 42 shop. there are 1 - 2 places for specials. ships.
            Plus, Zvezdochka has 2 workshops with 4 places in each.
            1. Beregovic_1
              Beregovic_1 17 September 2020 16: 10 New
              +2
              55 workshop 500 meters. Buildings of 170 (Borei), in addition, when installing the foundations, the equipment compartments are pushed apart on the slipway. Two bodies on 1 strand maximum. Here in workshop 50, if you build Ash (130 meters) or some other short ones, then maybe 8 can be ...
              1. Grits
                Grits 17 September 2020 16: 20 New
                +1
                Quote: Beregovyhok_1
                55 workshop 500 meters. Buildings of 170 (Borei), in addition, when installing the foundations, the equipment compartments are pushed apart on the slipway. Two bodies on 1 strand maximum. Here in workshop 50, if you build Ash (130 meters) or some other short ones, then maybe 8 can be ...

                So, my memory is still cheating on me. that was a long time ago. Back in the era when there was only the Severodvinsk building and one "ring" of the Dolgoruky
          2. Nemchinov Vl
            Nemchinov Vl 18 September 2020 01: 39 New
            +1
            Quote: Beregovyhok_1
            .... On the one hand, in some moments it is even worse than the author wrote: ...
            but also
            Quote: Beregovyhok_1
            ... I see no reason for outright panic, ...
            Not bad !!!... But I liked this point of view.
            And it is possible that the 949A ("Batons") will eventually be replaced by the 955K ("Borei" in variation with the CD). The idea does not seem bad at all.
            1. Beregovic_1
              Beregovic_1 19 September 2020 14: 32 New
              0
              If, in principle, the fleet needs such ships. For the projection of force, the Americans need missile platforms for massive Axes strikes against the Papuans. If we have such tasks, then yes, the idea is good. At the moment, they will be useful only in Syria, and even then, it is cheaper to strike with aircraft. I am also impressed by the Boreus-based SSGN in that potential opponents will allocate an additional squad of forces to track them. Go figure out what went out to sea, SSBN or SSGN, if they have a similar acoustic portrait and are based in one place ...
              1. Nemchinov Vl
                Nemchinov Vl 19 September 2020 21: 41 New
                0
                Quote: Beregovyhok_1
                ... I am also impressed by the SSGN based on the "Boreus" in that to track them, likely opponents will allocate an additional outfit of forces. Go figure out what went out to sea, SSBN or SSGN, if they have a similar acoustic portrait and are based in one place ...
                and that's what I mean !!!... Yes, the cost (and speed of construction) of the construction of a new (SSGN) on an old project (!), it may be more expedient than the time and cost of re-modernization for Caliber "Batonov -AM"....
      2. Grandfather
        Grandfather 16 September 2020 07: 33 New
        +4
        .. But, I believe in Russia, in the potential of our people, in the potential of socialism, under which the Soviet Union became a superpower,
        in the "outback" it looks like this force has remained, which is begging, and the next "October" will go from there, and not from the fucking capital, and it will be terrible. For the Russian revolt is terrible ... alas.
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 16 September 2020 06: 28 New
    16
    And we wonder why our partners are getting impudent, more and more ... If the author knows about the state and situation in our Armed Forces, then for our partners this is not a secret either.
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 16 September 2020 06: 42 New
      14
      Quote: parusnik
      And we wonder why our partners are getting impudent, more and more ... If the author knows about the state and situation in our Armed Forces, then for our partners this is not a secret either.

      I would like our "mikhan", and a hedgehog with him, well, all sorts of "Petrovs", etc. to hear ... about "we will break everything" ...
  3. Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 16 September 2020 06: 47 New
    -13
    And what, we have "war tomorrow"?
    Apparently, not ours, not "partners" seriously do not think so.
    Accordingly, deeds - they scare ours, ours pretend to be scared ...
    But in fact, both ours and "theirs" are successfully mastering the budget, in the amount that is available to them.
    Only that ours then give them a part of the booty, but here you can’t go anywhere, the right of the strong.
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 16 September 2020 07: 24 New
      14
      Quote: Jacket in stock
      And what, we have "war tomorrow"?

      what kind of war if Dachas have "ours" there? and children, and parents, and friends ... at the smallest, at the "TV presenter" - there ... what do you want, what kind of war? why fight, for what? gold and then allowed to sell "there" .. for nothing, everything is given. and the population, according to the "program" - will die out. From here, both the fleet and Roskosmos, etc. and so on - slippage and kickbacks in time. SHOW got sick ...
      1. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 16 September 2020 07: 32 New
        +7
        Quote: Dead Day
        everything is given for nothing. and the population, according to the "program", will die out.

        How do you want? Thieves don't care how the tenants will live there in a robbed apartment ...
        1. Grandfather
          Grandfather 16 September 2020 07: 35 New
          +1
          Quote: ROSS 42
          And how do you want?

          as promised ... Bright Future, everyone ... you know.
          1. Ross xnumx
            Ross xnumx 16 September 2020 07: 39 New
            +5
            Quote: Dead Day
            Bright Future, everyone ... you know.

            With such "promises" you somehow become yourself ... We do not need their "bright" future ... We need a decent life for our children in a sovereign country.
            1. Grandfather
              Grandfather 16 September 2020 08: 11 New
              +1
              Quote: ROSS 42
              .We need a decent life for our children in a sovereign country.

              what do you need ? liver? - not really, kidneys - like norms, heart, lungs - no question ... take everything - save the Country.
      2. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 16 September 2020 08: 25 New
        +1
        Quote: Dead Day
        what kind of war if Dachas have "ours" there? and children, and parents, and friends ... at the smallest, at the "TV presenter" - there ... what do you want, what kind of war?


        Power is always more expensive. what are you speaking about. There will be no Russia, all exported to the West will go under the knife, or, at best, be deprived of everything stolen and will go around the world.
      3. Eskobar
        Eskobar 16 September 2020 17: 49 New
        -1
        Not a war, but the pacification of your colonial fiefdom
    2. donavi49
      donavi49 16 September 2020 08: 36 New
      11
      And what, we have "war tomorrow"?


      Well, as the last 300 years in Russia show, partners have always tried to guess the time when the old has already collapsed or is ineffective, and the new is not yet there. All these regiments of the new system, which had to be formed already in the war, new types of artillery, army reforms in wartime, battleships that were late for the war for which they were built, and that's all.
      1. Liam
        Liam 16 September 2020 09: 00 New
        +1
        Can you name at least one war in which Russia entered prepared?
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 16 September 2020 09: 06 New
          13
          There were small ones. Fully prepared, not only Russia, but the world is not.

          Of the most prepared, the march to Kazan - there, just on all the failures, they did work on the mistakes, carried out the necessary rearrangements, unfolded the political situation, equipped the army, including with advanced artillery at that time.

          Well, and Catherine's wars, with the exception of some moments (for the same fleet). There it just came together - advanced tactics introduced into the troops, good (responding to +/- time) weapons and artillery, the necessary reforms and the best commanders.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 September 2020 12: 49 New
            +5
            Quote: donavi49
            Well, and Catherine's wars

            I will add to this some of the Napoleonic wars - the Russian army was well prepared, just the enemy was very talented
      2. alexmach
        alexmach 16 September 2020 11: 36 New
        -1
        All these regiments of the new system, which had to be formed already in the war

        Are the neighbors cheated? With regiments of the new order? Or maybe the supreme obos himself .. made a mistake starting the war before he formed the regiments of the new system? By the way, everything was in order with the old rifle regiments too.
  4. Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 16 September 2020 08: 09 New
    +7
    which cannot be said about our small surface cruise missile carriers. They have one more negative place. These are Chinese engines. Alas, which are very far from ideal, but ours are even worse. Russian ship diesel engines are worse than Chinese ones in the sense that they simply do not exist.

    Once I wrote a comment saying why the private business does not invest in armaments. They explained to me that it is not profitable, the Ministry of Defense does not have that much money to buy military toys from private military corporations. Again the question is that engine building is not profitable in different spheres ?. Business doesn't want to invest in this industry. Like we don't produce much. Sanctions prevent us from purchasing ideas and equipment. I just want to say, what a bad USSR did not leave any inheritance. He died and took everything with him to the grave. But we have the best nuclear power plants and we build them quickly. If so, why buy diesel engines in China. Speaking of Chinese diesel engines, created on the basis of the Soviet ones, from which they squeezed everything.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 September 2020 08: 30 New
      +6
      Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
      Once I wrote a comment saying why the private business does not invest in weapons.

      Why doesn't he invest? Many military-industrial complex plants are in private hands. But there is a nuance - to invest money, you have to have it.
      Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
      Again, the question is, is engine building also not profitable in various areas? Business doesn't want to invest in this industry.

      Not "does not want", but "cannot." The threshold for entry there is colossal; such investments are simply beyond the capacity of businesses. There are enterprises that were originally engaged in engine building, such as Kolomna, they - yes, they can do something else
      1. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 16 September 2020 09: 55 New
        +6
        Many military-industrial complex plants are in private hands. But there is a nuance - to invest money, you have to have it.
        The age-old problem of money is no. smile Speaking about private business, I meant creating an enterprise from scratch. New plant, with Russian equipment, design bureaus, etc. , but apparently there is enough money, only the purchase of yachts, castles, sports clubs ... There is no money for large projects. Paradox, the state must find funds to protect Russian business and defend its interests, business has no money. But the number of those who have a large number banknotes in foreign currency are continuously growing.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 September 2020 10: 19 New
          13
          Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
          New plant, with Russian equipment, design bureaus, etc. , but apparently there is enough money, only the purchase of yachts, castles, sports clubs ..

          This is true. But, strictly speaking, all these yachts, etc. nationwide - so-so toffee.
          A large plant for the production of engines for cars was estimated at half a billion dollars (we are building from scratch), but the point is that this is the production of already developed engines. And if you add to this the cost of design and construction, production, trial operation ... years and years of work and huge sums.
          There are not so many oligarchs who could be dispossessed for yachts and so on.
          Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
          But the number of those who have a large number of banknotes in foreign currency is constantly growing.

          It's a little different there. A billionaire is not a person who has billions of dollars in the bank, but a person who has property for these very billions. That is, a billionaire can be considered a person who owns a bunch of factories that are on the verge of bankruptcy, which have no money for any investments - but such a billionaire will steal something for himself. However, even if he is dispossessed, the situation will not change dramatically, unfortunately
          I am not defending oligarchs. But it won't be possible to squeeze a lot out of them even with the return of the "threes" of 37. Yes, we will talk about billions, tens of billions of dollars, but this will not fundamentally solve the problems of our economy - only as a separate measure in the general complex of others
          1. Daniil Konovalenko
            Daniil Konovalenko 16 September 2020 11: 03 New
            +3
            In fact of the matter.
          2. frog
            frog 16 September 2020 11: 21 New
            +1
            Yes, we will talk about billions, tens of billions of dollars, but this will not fundamentally solve the problems of our economy - only as a separate measure in the general complex of others

            Sorry, but this will at least solve something? Well, apart from the eternal craving for ..... "social justice" ......
            Purely IMHO, but the problem is not at all to impale a certain number of all sorts of different things. And in the fact that in their places you need to find relatively honest, comparatively smart, comparatively professional, etc. etc. And in what refrigerator to take them and defrost them?)) On a national scale, there are thousands ... It is clear that a certain number of, let's say, specialists, in the literal sense of the word, remain. But they don't have a print on their foreheads (like doctors and others)))) And you need a lot of them at once ... Because if "gradually", then the result is known wink This is not to mention the presence of will for all this ...
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 September 2020 12: 29 New
              0
              Quote: frog
              And in the fact that in their places you need to find relatively honest, comparatively smart, comparatively professional, etc. etc. And in which refrigerator to take them and defrost them?))

              Well, it is usually not the owners who actually work, but the management of the factories they own. The owners are like a big stick, they ask for the result. Also an important function, of course. In general, there are intelligent people, the question is motivation
              1. frog
                frog 16 September 2020 12: 40 New
                +2
                There are intelligent people, who can argue?))) The only question is that for some reason there is no place for directors of different ...... "factories, newspapers, steamships" they are not. About the owners - just modestly keep silent))
                Again .... Not so much that the topic of lack of control (that is, connivance at theft) has been discussed for a long time ..... I have repeatedly come across the fact that the output is a pair of Gazelles of financial reporting and documentation. Everything is all right))) But the product / order - as it was not, and not. And, let's just say, "not admitted to the trough" have it all repeat That is, the fact that people who can actually do something are definitely there. But, as a rule, for some reason no one needs them. At least for those who decide at least something.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 September 2020 12: 46 New
                  +6
                  Quote: frog
                  The only question is that for some reason there is no place for the directors of different ...... "factories, newspapers, ships" they do not exist.

                  Still as it is :)))) Do you think our industry is alive thanks to Putin? :)))))) Those tops who saved their enterprises in the crises of 1998, 2008 and 2014 are generally very professional and will give 100 points ahead to their foreign colleagues.
                  It is clear that not all are like that, someone was just lucky, etc.
                  1. frog
                    frog 16 September 2020 12: 57 New
                    +2
                    Still as it is :))))

                    I am very happy for you, since you know such people)) More than one in the number ... Chesslovo smile
                    Do you think our industry is alive thanks to Putin? :))))))

                    Well, the question, let's put it bluntly, is not an easy one))) Bo is the answer to it .... so ..... ambiguous wink
                    But, taking into account the survivors and .... and those who were not lucky ..... sad picture ..... Moreover, there are enterprises that simply cannot be restored.
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 16 September 2020 13: 42 New
                      0
                      Quote: frog
                      I am very happy for you, since you know such people)) There are more than one in the number ...

                      I know personally. And yes - much more than one :)))))))))
                      1. frog
                        frog 16 September 2020 13: 48 New
                        +1
                        So I say - I'm very glad))) Even I know a couple, oddly enough ... But against the general background ... Communication with factories (within the framework of the execution of experimental orders) does not cause enthusiasm. Although we don't want anything super and beyond ... It is clear that this is not everywhere, but ... Although the fact that someone is still doing business causes fierce respect ...
                    2. Serg65
                      Serg65 16 September 2020 14: 49 New
                      +1
                      Quote: frog
                      there are enterprises that simply cannot be restored.

                      Sevmash, on which Skomorokhov plans to build squadrons of submarine cruisers, survived thanks to Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov (rest in peace to him) and Sevmash director David Pashaev (rest in peace to him). The first head Borey received his name in honor of Yuri Luzhkov, as a sign of deep gratitude to the plant staff for the help provided by the Moscow government and the Moscow mayor personally! If not for Luzhkov, then Sevmash in 1998 was sold for metal!
                      The "Severnaya Verf" plant was not squeezed out of Pugachev yet, the same was in full operation! Over the past seven years, probably 5 directors have changed.
                      Under the Union of the nuclear submarines, 4 plants were built, now one has remained and that has begun to work in full since 2011 thanks to the sale of Gorshkov's TAVKR to the Indians.
          3. DrEng527
            DrEng527 16 September 2020 11: 47 New
            +2
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            But it won't be possible to squeeze a lot out of them even with the return of the "threes" of 37.

            at the same time, what is obtained is quickly fufukuyut, experience is request
      2. CTABEP
        CTABEP 17 September 2020 07: 45 New
        0
        At the same time, please note that any work with the state is a headache for a private trader. The money based on the results of work can go to you for a very long time (and people have to pay now, otherwise they will run away), you cannot sue you (but be sure, they will serve you at the first jamb, or they will come with an offer to "negotiate"), with advances practically no way. In total, any such work is a huge risk, and if the organization does not have a margin of safety, or connections at the top, everything can end sadly even if the contract is fulfilled. It's true that I have experience in construction, but I don't think that state offices in the military industry have gone very far.
        Therefore, until the attitude changes, there will be nothing sensible.
    2. PSih2097
      PSih2097 16 September 2020 08: 47 New
      +4
      Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
      Speaking of Chinese diesels, they were created on the basis of Soviet ones, from which they squeezed everything.

      not only the Soviet legacy, there also the Germans from MTU noted ...
  5. Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 16 September 2020 08: 23 New
    +5
    Mr. Skomorokhov why write about what you are neither ear nor p ... (c.)

    The Lasta complex never hit any nuclear submarine. I also have no doubt that not a single 91P is on the boats either. There are so many old PLURs on the boats.
    It is significant that Mr. Skomorokhov did not hint about the problems with torpedo weapons - well, it's not clear and wonderful, I understand - read Klimov and explain it as it is in reality.
  6. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 16 September 2020 08: 29 New
    -9
    Thanks to the respected Roman Skomorokhov for the topical article .... without any irony, it's horror! Why then the fleet, if the number of nuclear submarines is becoming piece and scanty? And there is a way out and it is obvious, to abandon the construction of the UDC, to sell Kuzya to China to India, not to modernize Peter, but only to the VTG to him, To abandon the construction of frigates (there are already enough of them, taking into account the modernization and VTG 1155, 1164), corvettes and reprofile, for example, the northern shipyard for the construction of nuclear submarines, consider the possibility of re-profiling the Baltic Shipyard, the Admiralty shipyards. You need to understand that the nuclear submarine is practically the only real strike force of the fleet, if there is no nuclear submarine, then the fleet is not needed.
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 16 September 2020 08: 48 New
      16
      1) China does not need Kuzya. At all. He has 2 Kuzi on new boilers and Chinese equipment. The narrow-eyed Kitty has already begun to be assembled from Lego very quickly, at this rate they will be lowered next year. From this level, UDC 075 was lowered six months later.


      India is possible. But this is a circus for 5-7 years. Indians are not fast. They began to make their STOBAR aircraft carrier at the time of the completion of Liaolin. And now the Hindus are trolled, the narrow-eyed Kitty on the advanced KATOBAR scheme (only in the USA and France) will be completed faster than the "backward" Hindu vessel.

      2) Without surface fleet, submarine is killed in one wicket.

      3) Re-profiling of shipyards is almost impossible. Cheaper to build a new one. By the way, the Chinese have proved this. Having a mega-complex in Shanghai with super-shipyards, having a huge complex in Dalian. With a total of 1-2 shipbuildings, they ran into Bohai in the nuclear submarine. As a result, a global reconstruction and commissioning of the first stage in 2018. And during the reconstruction, they very much sank into nuclear submarines. When the complex is completed, it will be the largest and most productive in the world. It seems that now they can assemble 8 type 093 SSNS in a covered workshop at the same time.
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 16 September 2020 09: 06 New
        -10
        Quote: donavi49
        Without a surface fleet, the submarine is killed in one wicket.

        I do not agree that submarines need a surface fleet only near bases, while its functions are easily solved by coastal aviation (it needs to be urgently built) with increased efficiency and reduced costs. Neither UDK nor Kuzya is needed to solve the problems of nuclear submarine withdrawal from bases. The sale of Kuzi to India can go very quickly, if you make a decision, he will be ready soon, he will not need a thorough repair, like Vakramidyi, By the way, we will save billions for the construction of an individual dock for him, a very expensive and useless toy for coastal defense, to please the patriots ...
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 16 September 2020 09: 16 New
          +9
          Solving a problem against one type of enemy is much easier than against a complex of means.

          For example, they will put down dense pickets, shower everything with buoys. Poseidons will feel right at home. Allied frigates / corvettes too.

          Coastal aviation may well be linked by carrier groups + aircraft from allied airfields. And in the sky, their superiority will be guaranteed outside the umbrella of ground dense air defense.

          So the boats will have to huddle in bases or go into a narrow area provided by air and surface forces, near the base.

          Total, you can optimize further. In general, cut all the boats. For in the effectiveness of firing from bases, mobile ground complexes significantly, several times win in the cost of connecting a similar number of striking means, as well as in the flexibility of operation, application, response time to dispersal and in survivability, if the flash is still overslept.
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 16 September 2020 23: 04 New
            0
            Quote: donavi49
            Coastal aviation may well be linked by carrier groups + aircraft from allied airfields. And in the sky, their superiority will be guaranteed outside the umbrella of ground dense air defense.
            coastal aviation, by definition, is stronger than aircraft carrier, more aircraft are more reliable based, it is certain that in this situation the defenseless Kuzya with his link of underloaded ammunition aircraft depending on the weather and destroyed together with 3000 people with one mine or torpedo ... Expert estimates of the cost of the Tu-160 fluctuate in the range from $ 250 to 600 million, and the cost of Vakramidya is 5 billion dollars, Kuzya will be better than Vakramidya and more expensive, If you sell it instead of a link of deck SUs, we get 10 -25 tu 160, Comments are unnecessary.
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 16 September 2020 09: 22 New
          +8
          Quote: vladimir1155
          I do not agree that submarines need a surface fleet only near bases, while its functions are easily solved by coastal aviation (it needs to be urgently built) with increased efficiency and reduced costs.

          That is, the submarines will break through the Faro-Icelandic border on their own? An excellent plan, which is already there - Tributs would approve.
          And without breaking through this milestone - why should we build a submarine with a CD? What targets can they hit from the Barents Sea?
          Quote: vladimir1155
          By the way, we will save billions for the construction of an individual dock for him, a very expensive and useless toy for coastal defense, to please the patriots.

          May we not save anything. Because after the loss of PD-50, a large dock in the fleet base is still needed, because the Sevmash basin may simply be busy at the right time.
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 16 September 2020 23: 08 New
            -1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            That is, the submarines will break through the Faro-Icelandic border on their own?
            Do you seriously think that defenseless Kuzya is capable of reaching the Faroese border? I’ll say more, don’t you really understand that he will not even be able to leave the port, you say that a secretive nuclear submarine is difficult to overcome this line, but how can a lone surface ship, visible to everyone and tasty for the enemy, be able to reach it?
            coastal aviation, by definition, is stronger than aircraft carrier, more aircraft are more reliable based, it is certain that in this situation the defenseless Kuzya with his link of underloaded ammunition aircraft depending on the weather and destroyed together with 3000 people with one mine or torpedo ... Expert estimates of the cost of the Tu-160 fluctuate in the range from $ 250 to 600 million, and the cost of Vakramidya is 5 billion dollars, Kuzya will be better than Vakramidya and more expensive, If you sell it instead of a link of deck SUs, we get 10 -25 tu 160, Comments are unnecessary.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 17 September 2020 08: 52 New
              +1
              Quote: vladimir1155
              Do you seriously think that defenseless Kuzya is capable of reaching the Faroese border?

              Don't change the subject. It was about a normal surface fleet, not about the defenseless Kuznetsov.
              Quote: vladimir1155
              coastal aviation by definition is stronger than aircraft carrier

              With a full-fledged airfield network. And with the advance relocation of reserves to them.
              Otherwise, we will get a typical picture of 1944, when the enemy is concentrating superior aircraft carrier forces against several coastal airfields and first destroying what is stationed at the airfields, and then the suitable reserves.
              Quote: vladimir1155
              If we sell it instead of a link of deck-based SUs, we get 10 -25 to 160,

              ABOUT! Do you already have the technology to directly convert money into goods? smile
              Unfortunately for theoretical economists, the formula commodity-money-commodity works only in the presence of some kind of production there, overshadowing their existence by their harmonious theories. Selling 11435 (I would like to know more), we will receive only money. On which it may someday be possible to build the Tu-160. Or maybe it won't.
              Fortunately, an example of such a failure is well known - it is Britain and the first atomic "Elizabeth". At first, they canceled its construction on the pretext that all its tasks would be performed by the F-111, which will certainly be purchased. Then it suddenly turned out that in order to ensure the interests of the Empire with coastal aviation, several overseas bases were needed, which needed to be constantly leased, which also required money - and they had to cut plans for the purchase of aircraft in order to lease bases. Finally. The empire received neither the F-111, nor the base - and the money for them disappeared somewhere.
              1. Vladimir1155
                Vladimir1155 17 September 2020 10: 07 New
                0
                Quote: Alexey RA
                It was about a normal surface fleet, not about the defenseless Kuznetsov.
                you hover in the clouds and deny reality, but reality is a specific fleet, not your imaginary one .... in reality, the navy will not be able to select a single ship to guard the Kuzi, all of them will be busy with coastal defense. India or China can just provide cover for their aircraft carriers and Kuzya would be useful to them.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                ABOUT! Do you already have the technology to directly convert money into goods?
                yes, conversion is called production ... I worked at the country's largest machine-building plant and can imagine how it all works, what impact on the scale has funding, I know what loading equipment in three shifts is, right up to bringing workers from other regions
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 18 September 2020 09: 15 New
                  0
                  Quote: vladimir1155
                  you are in the clouds and deny reality, and reality is a specific fleet, not your imaginary ...

                  So in reality, 25 Tu-160 or a domestic anti-submarine aircraft in the near future represent the same soaring in the clouds as a balanced surface fleet.
                  Quote: vladimir1155
                  in reality, the navy will not be able to allocate a single ship to guard the Kuzi, all of them will be busy with coastal defense.

                  In reality, one of Kuznetsov's tasks is precisely defense - air defense of ship groups beyond 400 km from the nearest airfield.
                  Quote: vladimir1155
                  yes, conversion is called production ... I worked at the largest machine-building plant in the country and can imagine how it all works, what impact on scale has funding

                  The planned production rate of Tu-2015 in 160 is 3 aircraft per year. This is subject to normal funding and the then relatively soft sanctions regime. In the best case, we get 2 cars a year. So "Kuznetsov" in your version will be replaced for ten years. And even more.
        3. slm976
          slm976 16 September 2020 09: 48 New
          +2
          I do not agree that submarines need a surface fleet only near bases, while its functions are easily solved by coastal aviation (it needs to be urgently built) with increased efficiency and reduced costs. Neither UDK nor Kuzya is needed to solve the problems of nuclear submarines leaving the bases. Indie Sale


          Uh-huh, and outside the range of our coastal aviation, our nuclear submarines will meet the enemy's surface and submarine fleets + anti-submarine aviation from unnecessary aircraft carriers. Our nuclear submarines will not be able to leave the bases and will be destroyed right there, great plan!
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 16 September 2020 23: 12 New
            0
            Quote: slm976
            Our nuclear submarines will not be able to leave the bases and will be destroyed right there, great plan!

            Do you seriously think that defenseless Kuzya is capable of leaving the port? You say that a secretive nuclear submarine is difficult to overcome this line, that enemies are waiting for it there, but how can a lone surface ship, visible to everyone and tasty for the enemy, be able to reach?
            coastal aviation, by definition, is stronger than an aircraft carrier, more aircraft are more reliable in basing, as if the lonely defenseless Kuzya with his link of underloaded ammunition aircraft dependent on the weather and destroyed together with 3000 people by one mine or torpedo ... Expert estimates of the cost of the Tu-160 fluctuate in the range from $ 250 to 600 million, and the cost of Vakramidya is $ 5 billion, Kuzya will be better than Vakramidya and more expensive, If you sell it instead of a link of deck SUs, we get 10 -25 tu 160, Comments are unnecessary.
            1. slm976
              slm976 17 September 2020 08: 29 New
              0
              Do you seriously think that defenseless Kuzya is capable of leaving the port? You say that a secretive nuclear submarine is difficult to overcome this line, that enemies are waiting for it there, but how can a lone surface ship, visible to everyone and tasty for the enemy, be able to reach?


              No, I don’t think so!)) But it’s not me who proposes to stop building surface ships altogether (except for the OVR) and focus on aviation and nuclear submarines, you are proposing this!

              On the contrary, I believe that we should definitely build the surface component of the fleet, in quantities that would guarantee the deployment of at least missile submarines and move enemy aircraft carriers, submarines and attack ships from our coast.
              Yes, we will never be able to build a fleet that will be able to compete on an equal footing with the united NATO fleet, or at least with the American fleet, this is neither financially nor geographically possible, and it is not necessary.
              We need a fleet that can ensure the security of our country, and it is quite possible to build such a fleet! And this fleet will not be able to do without frigates, destroyers and aircraft-carrying ships, and there will not be many of them, but there should be enough of them to ensure the tasks voiced above.
              As for naval aviation, it is imperative to strengthen it, especially as regards anti-submarine aviation, we have a lot of seams with it, consider it not, but this is a separate topic for discussion.

              coastal aviation, by definition, is stronger than aircraft carrier, more aircraft are more reliable in basing, as if the lonely defenseless Kuzya with his link of underloaded ammunition aircraft dependent on the weather and destroyed together with 3000 people by one mine or torpedo will not help in this situation ..


              Coastal aviation has one big drawback - it cannot be promoted to the front line of deployment, it is tied to coastal airfields, so the enemy just needs to strike from an area that will be outside the action of coastal aviation. Moreover, the enemy will choose the time and place of the strike himself, and will strike primarily at the coastal airfields. Having 1 or 2 aircraft carriers with a group of cover ships, you can build a mobile defense system, which will be much more difficult and costly to cope with.

              Expert estimates of the cost of the Tu-160 range from $ 250 to 600 million, and the cost of Vakramidya is $ 5 billion, Kuzya will be better than Vakramidya and more expensive, If you sell it instead of a deck-based SU, we get 10 -25 Tu 160, Comments are unnecessary.


              "Horses, people mixed up in a heap" (c) ... How can you compare soft with cold? What does the Tu-160 strategists have to do with aircraft carriers? I would also understand if you proposed abandoning missile submarines in favor of strengthening the ground and air strategic components, this is radically and not correct, but at least the logic is clear ...
              But your proposal is generally absurd !!! You propose to invest in a strategic nuclear component and at the same time refuse to build means of covering this strategic component!
              1. Vladimir1155
                Vladimir1155 17 September 2020 10: 11 New
                0
                Quote: slm976
                Coastal aviation has one big drawback - it cannot be promoted to the front line of deployment,

                just long-range aviation moves much further than your surface ships and can carry not only strategic, but also tactical weapons ... your attempts at many surface ships and aircraft carriers are physically unrealistic, go down to earth, only on the ground in the air and under water we can achieve at least some result, taking into account funding and other factors
                1. slm976
                  slm976 17 September 2020 10: 35 New
                  0
                  long-range aviation moves much further than your surface ships and can carry not only strategic, but also tactical weapons


                  The TU-160, which you wrote about, is a strategic aviation and not a long-range, long-range aircraft - the TU-22M3 .. you are already completely confused!

                  But even if we consider long-range aviation ... It might have moved forward, but who would allow it !!! Will your missile carriers fly far away without cover for fighters in the enemy's AUG operation zone? And where can you get a sufficient amount of TU-22M3?
                  Do you really think that building the required number of such missile carriers is a very simple matter and everything depends only on money?
                  Remind me how many long-range or strategic aircraft have we recently built and how many have been modernized? How many of these planes do we have?
                  And after that, estimate the number of aircraft that were in the USSR MPA and go down to earth!

                  your attempts at many surface ships and aircraft carriers are physically unrealistic, go down to earth, only on the ground in the air and under water can we achieve at least some result, taking into account funding and other factors


                  Of course, let's abandon the construction of NKs, which have gradually learned to build anew, and start pouring all the money into distant missile carriers that are in post. during the Soviet era, they did not build at all and only just started the first steps in restoring competencies !! Great plan!
                  Let's stay with a naked woman ... oh!
                  1. Vladimir1155
                    Vladimir1155 17 September 2020 20: 34 New
                    0
                    Quote: slm976
                    Remind me how many long-range or strategic aircraft have we recently built and how many have been modernized? How many of these planes do we have?

                    this is all because the budget is devoured by the senseless Kuzya, if you sell it, you can order 4 tu 160, 20 su57, 6 minesweepers and a couple of nuclear submarines,
                    1. slm976
                      slm976 18 September 2020 09: 23 New
                      0
                      Well, of course, all our problems are in Kuznetsov)))), sell it and we will live immediately !!!)))
                      1. Are you ready to voice the sums that are being devoured by the "senseless Kuznetsov" "and which, in your opinion, are devastating our military budget? Are they as global as you think?
                      2. Nobody will buy "Kuznetsov" from us now, nobody needs it except us!
                      3. For us, "Kuznetsov" is just what we need, so far we have the only hope for the preservation of the school of pilots of naval aircraft carrier aviation .. not everything can be worked out on ground simulators and simulators !! Already as a training ship for naval aviation pilots, it fully justifies its existence!
                      I don’t understand at all, why are you hanging on to this unfortunate aircraft-carrying cruiser?

                      order 4 tu 160, 20 su57, 6 minesweepers and a pair of nuclear submarines


                      We can and can order, but build?)))
                      TU-160 - the building competencies are being restored, the aircraft are not really being built yet - you can order them at least a million more, they won't start building faster from this!
                      SU-57 - the same problem, serial production is just being created, even if you order 1000 - they will not build more and faster!
                      Can you guess by the minesweepers and nuclear submarines?)) Yes, they are being built at the maximum rate with which our industry can build them, and they will not be built faster yet!
                      1. Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 18 September 2020 22: 39 New
                        0
                        Quote: slm976
                        "Kuznetsov" is just needed, so far we have the only hope for the preservation of the school of pilots of naval aircraft carrier aviation .. not everything can be worked out on ground simulators and simulators !! Already as a training ship for naval aviation pilots, it fully justifies its existence!

                        This nonsense is expressed by many under a carbon copy, but they have found a reason to keep an unnecessary ship for the sake of a pilot school! .... yes, you don't need a ship, so you don't need a school either, you just don't need it. planes will take off from ground airfields, and the Be 200 sometimes from rivers and lakes, if ever we need an aircraft carrier, which I personally doubt, we will teach how to take off from it, it's not such a problem to maintain an aircraft carrier for decades for the sake of imaginary exercises. And let those who need to study in a computer program, time does not stand still; there are simulators with very real tasks and do not cost billions of dollars of real money.
                      2. Firelake
                        Firelake 20 September 2020 11: 51 New
                        0
                        Kuzya is a suitcase without a handle. It is not needed in the current Russian fleet.
  7. Shadow041
    Shadow041 16 September 2020 09: 17 New
    +1
    Chinese engines are installed only on the last Buyan-M, the production of which is discontinued. Only domestic diesel engines are installed on the Karakurt MRK. Granite, of course, is an old rocket, but with what was the author going to shoot it down so easily, the goal is rather complicated, for any modern air defense system ?! Granite can be criticized for the fact that instead of one Granite, several more modern missiles can be placed in the mine, the range of which, for example, in the Onyx-M anti-ship missile system, exceeds the range of Granite. But there is also a downside to the coin. Warhead Granite will be more serious than that of Onyx and the fact that Onyx will damage, Granite will simply sink. Of course, new nuclear submarines are needed, and no one argues with the need to repair and modernize nuclear submarines in service, but not everything is so bad, especially recently. I don’t know what happened to the Omsk nuclear submarine, but it wasn’t found until it surfaced itself, which means that the talk that the Yankees supposedly know where each Russian submarine is is just nonsense!
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 16 September 2020 09: 46 New
      +9
      I don’t know what happened to the Omsk nuclear submarine, but it wasn’t found until it surfaced itself, which means that the talk that the Yankees supposedly know where each Russian submarine is is just nonsense!


      Why did you decide that it was NOT found ??? This is classified information and no one will ever disclose it. The only exception is if there is a command to forcefully squeeze out of the area.

      Neither ours nor the Americans will share extremely useful information, even at the level - we found / did not find you. Since this will allow you to analyze at which line you burned. From what funds. And in general, work to improve both boats and tactics.
      1. Shadow041
        Shadow041 16 September 2020 10: 46 New
        0
        Because almost everywhere they write that the Omsk submarine SUDDENLY surfaced near Alaska. About the nuclear submarine, which was accompanied by the US anti-submarine forces do not write SUDDENLY surfaced. Don't drive me. If the Yankees had accompanied our nuclear submarine, their officers would have boasted of this to journalists for a long time. They love to show off. In addition, they are familiar with several active submariners who serve on the Voronezh nuclear submarine, the same type as the nuclear submarine Omsk, ANTEI and none of them does not say that the submarine is useless junk, which the Yankees keep at gunpoint all the time. And there is no need for military secrets, I have a certain admission to such a certainty and my friends in my kitchen would not be cunning. As for me, this is a demonstrative emergence off the coast of the enemy, after the Yankees demonstrated the surfacing of their nuclear submarine of the SeaWolf type near our Arctic possessions. Nobody hides the recent accident of our nuclear submarines. If there were problems with the operation of the new equipment of the newest nuclear submarine Kazan, then they were announced, albeit without details, despite the fact that this is the newest submarine of the Russian Federation, perhaps the most modern. Of course, here we can say that there is also a nuclear submarine of the Borei-A type. but Yasen-M is better in many respects, except that it has no ballistic missiles on board.
        1. timokhin-aa
          timokhin-aa 16 September 2020 12: 35 New
          +6
          Because almost everywhere they write that the Omsk submarine SUDDENLY surfaced near Alaska. About the nuclear submarine, which was accompanied by the US anti-submarine forces do not write SUDDENLY surfaced. Don't drive me. If the Yankees accompanied our nuclear submarine, their officers would have boasted of this to journalists long ago.


          This is what I understand an alternative reality!
        2. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 16 September 2020 23: 20 New
          0
          Quote: Shadow041
          About the nuclear submarine, which was accompanied by the US anti-submarine forces do not write SUDDENLY surfaced. Don't drive me. If the Yankees had accompanied our nuclear submarine, their officers would have boasted of this to journalists for a long time. They love to show off. In addition, they are familiar with several active submariners who serve on the Voronezh nuclear submarine, the same type as the nuclear submarine Omsk, ANTEI and none of them does not say that the sub is useless junk that the Yankees keep at gunpoint all the time.

          everything is absolutely correct, it even happens that the boats collide, because they are quiet and cannot recognize each other for a hundred meters, and urya patriots, fans of aircraft carrier show-offs claim that boats are visible to everyone ... but no one will notice the aircraft carrier and it is so beautiful will reach the Faroese border and disperse everyone there ...
          show-off, then show-off ... not that quiet and inconspicuous submarine.
          1. Bear040
            Bear040 18 September 2020 01: 35 New
            +2
            Well what can I say buddy. Most of those sitting here (large specialists) in reality will not be able to equip the PM store with cartridges, but (large specialists) on missiles, military satellites and other (trifles)
            1. slm976
              slm976 18 September 2020 09: 27 New
              0
              And you know, in reality, most specialists in missiles and military satellites really will not be able to equip a PM store, then you understand who learned what! Someone to design rockets and satellites, and someone to charge the PM!
  8. Ervin
    Ervin 16 September 2020 11: 36 New
    -5
    There are no hopeless situations, there are desperate decisions!
    Japan also lagged behind in technical terms and in quantity. But this did not prevent Japan from using the spirit of patriotism in the fight against the invaders and the world learned about the "Kaitens". No need to poke your fingers and say that this is bad or not for us - let's remember how war heroes threw grenades under enemy tanks - in fact, the same kaitens, only Russians. And it will not matter what kind of torpedo the American aircraft carrier will be sunk - AI-controlled or human-controlled, the result itself is important! And the spirit of our sailors has always been on top!
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 16 September 2020 12: 12 New
      +5
      Quote: Ervin
      Japan also lagged behind in technical terms and in quantity. But this did not prevent Japan from using the spirit of patriotism in the fight against the invaders and the world learned about the "Kaitens".

      Uh-huh ... a great example of a predominantly morale bet - and its consequences. For patriotic Japan lost to the "pampered and cowardly" Yankees.
      None special attack units will not help when the enemy presses both quantitatively and qualitatively. What's the point in fighting spirit if it is impossible to approach the enemy within the launch range?
      What's the use of gathering a crowd of kamikaze if there are no normal planes for them (3/4 of the planes assembled for the defense of the Metropolis were training) and there is almost no fuel. What's the use of building Oka missiles if their carriers go astray even before the shells are dropped? What is the use of kaitens if the PL carriers just don't get close to their goals? What is the use of suicide bombers with pole mines and explosive charges if any enemy soldier who has risen within a radius of 100 m from the tank is immediately mowed down by a tank marines?
      1. Ervin
        Ervin 16 September 2020 12: 15 New
        -10
        28 Panfilovites - no, haven't you? Well, read it!
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 16 September 2020 13: 03 New
          +5
          Quote: Ervin
          28 Panfilovites - no, haven't you? Well, read it!

          Read what? Agitation of Koroteyev Krivitsky, in which 28 people stopped German tanks?
          Or documents of the 1073rd Rifle Regiment of the 316th Rifle Division, from which it follows that the Germans passed through the defenses of the 1075th Rifle Regiment and in the middle of the day attacked from the flank and rear of the position of the 1073rd Rifle Regiment, and up to 30 tanks took part in the attack on the command post of the regiment ?
          ... already at 14.30 Moscow time (i.e. at 11.30 Berlin time) the Germans are already attacking with tanks and infantry from the KP 1073 regiment in Yadrovo. Those. by this time the defense of the 1075th regiment had already been destroyed.
          At the same time, the positions of the 2nd (consolidated) battalion 1073 joint ventures (anti-tank rifle platoon, 2- 76-mm PA, 4 45-mm guns), which were in the forest south-west of the headquarters, were attacked half an hour later, incl. already from the rear from Yadrovo.
          © A.Ulanov
          1. Ervin
            Ervin 16 September 2020 13: 05 New
            -13
            Nobody gave you the right to distort the historical truth and denigrate the feat of your grandfathers! For this there is already an article - have you read it? Read it, and then think that you are writing!
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 16 September 2020 13: 36 New
              +8
              Quote: Ervin
              Nobody gave you the right to distort the historical truth and denigrate the feat of your grandfathers!

              Well, prosecute the deputy chief of staff of the 1073 rifle regiment. Because it is he blackened the feat, having written in the operative of 18.11.1941/14/30 about the attack of the command post of his regiment at 16.11.1941:XNUMX on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX by German tanks (first echelon 12 units, then in separate groups up to 30 units in total. ©), caught up in the rear of our defense.

              An excellent suggestion: let's consider the official documents written by those who fought in the 316th division in those terrible days as a denigration of feats. Only because these documents do not coincide with the myth created by the correspondents, who did not even bother to get to the front line and talk to the soldiers, confining themselves to the regiment headquarters.

              Are we not enough of the Soviet GlavPUR with its struggle for an ideologically verified history? Which ended with the people beginning to believe any heresy like Rezun, but not the official version.
            2. Serg65
              Serg65 16 September 2020 15: 02 New
              +3
              Quote: Ervin
              Nobody gave you the right to distort the historical truth

              Since when did the combat report of the command of the regiment, which stood next to the regiment in which the "28 Panfilov men" served, became a distortion of the truth ???
            3. Nehist
              Nehist 16 September 2020 17: 29 New
              +1
              H'm ... And here is your statement just under Article 207 and further under many others. So think about what you write about and learn history not from propaganda but from documents, there is a lot of hard-hitting
          2. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 17 September 2020 08: 13 New
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            A. Ulanov

            and who is this lancer? a case not the brother of Viktor Suvorov, Colonel Dotsenko, Svetlana Aleksievich of the late Kachinsky and Goebbels? it seems to me that he is definitely a relative of Gebels
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 17 September 2020 09: 06 New
              +1
              Quote: vladimir1155
              and who is this lancer? a case not the brother of Viktor Suvorov, Colonel Dotsenko, Svetlana Aleksievich of the late Kachinsky and Goebbels? it seems to me that he is definitely a relative of Gebels

              Andrey Ulanov - co-author of Dmitry Shein in writing books on Soviet armored vehicles before the war and on the first T-34: "Order in the tank forces" and "The first T-34. Combat use." The books were written according to Russian archival documents. And, frankly, the picture shown in them is still smoothed out - because the primary (with a part of which, thanks to S.D.Shein, I happened to get acquainted) is even more hopeless. One division, whose personnel are scattered across peasant houses and outbuildings within a radius of 50 km from the headquarters, which is worth it. Or tables of staffing of housings with equipment ...

              In this particular example, he summarizes what was written by the deputy chief of staff of the 1073rd rifle division for battles on November 16, 1941 in the operational report of November 18, 1941.
              https://kris-reid.livejournal.com/810556.html

              Since when is the reliance on Soviet archival documents, and not on the tales of GlavpUR, is it Goebbels propaganda? Or what - the deputy chief of staff of the 1073rd joint venture was a German spy?
              1. Vladimir1155
                Vladimir1155 17 September 2020 10: 19 New
                -1
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Andrey Ulanov - co-author of Dmitry Shein

                I don’t trust either the first or the second, I have not heard and do not want to read them, so far you have only brought scribbles of the unknown, no documents, no addresses in the archives for verification, you don’t have it, so all this is propaganda to discredit our people, him Great past, Great victory, are you a xenophobe? do not fall for the bait of liars and Judas. If the facts discredit the feat of our grandfathers, so much the worse for the facts, I consider it expedient to bring to criminal responsibility the citizens of Shein, Ulanov and Alexey RA under the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation Article 354.1. part three, note, the Prosecutor's Office and the investigative committee will figure out who found what documents there and by whom they were falsified .. do not be offended!
                1. Nemchinov Vl
                  Nemchinov Vl 18 September 2020 01: 29 New
                  -2
                  Quote: vladimir1155
                  ... I consider it expedient to prosecute citizens of Shein, Ulanov and Alexey RA under the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation Article 354.1. part three, note, the Prosecutor's Office and the Investigative Committee will figure out who found what documents there and by whom they were falsified ... do not be offended! ...
                  ... well, if from the classics of my beloved Soviet cinema, then ... - "it seems to me a nice person, are you a cop snitch?" .... belay lol winked
                  1. Vladimir1155
                    Vladimir1155 18 September 2020 08: 17 New
                    0
                    and a patriot, I am performing the feat of a scout in the camp of the enemy, they wrote a libel in pencil, the paper of poor quality (equally without color transitions) turned yellow with photoshop, and it is passed off as a document by the deputy chief of staff of the regiment. The question is in what archive are these documents stored? The answer is that they are not stored, they are not subject to storage, there are lists of documents to be transferred to the archive, and there are no drafts and manuscripts of officers, otherwise our archives would have turned into huge monsters. But whoever absolutely believes every picture on the Internet is certainly a schizophrenic (diagnosis "lack of the ability to think logically and cut off false and unreliable information.")
                    1. Nemchinov Vl
                      Nemchinov Vl 18 September 2020 22: 26 New
                      -2
                      Quote: vladimir1155
                      ... a patriot, I am performing the feat of a scout in the camp of the enemy, they wrote a libel in pencil, the paper is of poor quality (equally without color transitions) turned yellow with Photoshop, and is issued as a document by the deputy chief of staff of the regiment. The question is in what archive are these documents stored? answer - they are not stored, they are not subject to storage ...
                      bli-i-in (!)it looks like with your health care reform, not everything went smoothly either ... recourse did they introduce something like Ulyana Suprun to you, and managed to destroy medicine, to the point of complete impotence ... winked request .
      2. CTABEP
        CTABEP 17 September 2020 07: 50 New
        0
        Because war is a craft, and craft loves professionals, not fanatics. And, of course, a good economy, which we constantly forget about. If you are an ace of underwater combat on the best nuclear submarine in the world - "The King has a lot."
  9. The comment was deleted.
  10. Ervin
    Ervin 16 September 2020 13: 38 New
    -9
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Well, prosecute the deputy chief of staff of the 1073 rifle regiment. Because it was he who denigrated the feat by writing in the operative bulletin dated 18.11.1941/14/30 about the attack on the command post of his regiment at 16.11.1941:12 on 30/XNUMX/XNUMX by German tanks (the first echelon of XNUMX units, then in separate groups of up to XNUMX units ©), which turned out to be in the rear of our defense.


    He will not answer according to the law, since at the time when he wrote his report, this law did not exist yet. But you - can be held responsible for denying the heroic deeds of the people and praising fascism - the law is just for people like you written and adopted.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 16 September 2020 14: 28 New
      +7
      Quote: Ervin
      But you - can be held responsible for denying the heroic deed of the people and praising fascism - the law is just for people like you written and adopted.

      Gorgeous: citing a Soviet official document written by a participant in the events two days after the battle is denial of the feat of the people and praise of fascism.
      If the facts do not fit into theory, so much the worse for the facts.. ©
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 17 September 2020 08: 21 New
        +1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        If the facts do not fit into theory, so much the worse for the facts.

        Are you sure that in the sovetsky official documents everything is written as a certain uhlan invented? everyone knows the scam of the Americans who allegedly flew to the moon, everyone knows the research of a certain liar from historical science with links to certain documents that no one saw ... who assured everyone of Tchaikovsky's alleged homosexuality, Yesenin, meanwhile, were both quite normal ... everyone knows the work of the assistant professor of the dismemberment about the alleged insidious attack of Alexander the First on Napoleon's darling, so I do not trust Ulanov
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 17 September 2020 09: 07 New
          -1
          Quote: vladimir1155
          Are you sure that in the sovetsky official documents everything is written as a certain uhlan invented?

          Conspiracy is our everything. smile
          Alas, but uv. Andrey Ulanov in his LiveJournal brought scans of that same operative.
          https://kris-reid.livejournal.com/810556.html
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 17 September 2020 09: 59 New
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            scans of the same operative.

            In half an hour I'll sprinkle a million such scans for you ..., especially not even uhlans, but a certain hickins, giggled at you for the Judas silvering ... and these scribbles of an unknown person, you pass them off as official documents?
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 17 September 2020 10: 06 New
              -1
              Quote: vladimir1155
              I will sprinkle a million such scans for you in half an hour ...

              I say: Conspiracy studies are our everything.
              Quote: vladimir1155
              especially not even uhlans but a certain hickins, giggled at you for the Judas silvering

              That is, you did not even bother to find out who owns LJ. laughing
              1. Vladimir1155
                Vladimir1155 18 September 2020 08: 21 New
                +1
                Quote: Alexey RA
                That is, you did not even bother to find out who owns LJ
                Here's another time to spend on all sorts of nasty nonsense, I had enough of a yellow piece of paper yellowed with Photoshop
  11. Fedor1
    Fedor1 16 September 2020 14: 01 New
    +1
    well what can I say; Putinism is in danger
  12. RVAPatriot
    RVAPatriot 16 September 2020 14: 16 New
    -1
    Why do we need so many p.L. how is the USA ??? if you have any questions, land-based ICBMs behind the eyes ...
  13. ZEMCH
    ZEMCH 16 September 2020 23: 36 New
    +2
    "Many experts here openly oppose the construction of small missile ships of the Buyan-M type, since the ships cost money, there are a lot of problems with them, and the real possibilities are so-so."
    The author has a question, does he know what exactly these ships were built for?
    First, at the time of construction, we did not withdraw from the INF Treaty. Only these "Caliber" carriers could be used from the rivers of the European part of the Russian Federation. And they can.
    Second, the areas of application, the Caspian Sea and the Black Sea. They are connected by the Volga-Don canal, through which they move freely.
    Third, throughout the entire zone of use of the main weapon, they are provided with ground air defense cover.
  14. ZEMCH
    ZEMCH 17 September 2020 00: 16 New
    +2
    We need a PL. But which plant will it build? Sevmash is busy, Admiralty shipyards are building diesel ones. Krasnoe Sormovo - builds mainly civilian NKs, Amur Shipyard due to the shallowing of the Amur, will not release boats without pantons, the last boat is Nerpa (Chakra in the Indisk Navy).
    We do not now have factories ready to produce boats like "pies". Sevmash's record in the USSR - 20 nuclear submarines in 5 years. But these are boats of the second generation
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 17 September 2020 00: 48 New
      0
      It is possible to build another shipyard and shipyards for the construction of nuclear submarines for destroyers of transport ships and other large ships up to an aircraft carrier - 200 billion rubles will cost, plus 200 related infrastructure may be near Norilsk just a metallurgical base nearby.
      1. ZEMCH
        ZEMCH 17 September 2020 10: 44 New
        +1
        Quote: Vadim237
        maybe not far from Norilsk there will be a metallurgical base nearby.

        The ships will then be diamond))
        We'll have to build boathouses, dry docks. And most importantly, it will be necessary to send workers with their families there, to build a city with all the infrastructure, roads there.
        More profitable in the Far East.
  15. Russian
    Russian 18 September 2020 08: 32 New
    +1
    All health, both bodily and mental.
    Reading such articles, you come to several conclusions:
    1. The data indicated by the author refers to information constituting a State secret. Here not only the numerical combat strength is revealed, but the locations of both the deployment and the location of the RTO and the basing of repair bases (the names of the companies are "breaking through").
    2. Knowing the system of providing / receiving the numerical strength of any forces and means of the Armed Forces of the RF Ministry of Defense, I boldly declare that this article contains incomplete figures (perhaps the author intentionally carried out disinformation. But, most likely, his informant is still friends with his head).
    3. Whatever it was (ways of obtaining information by the author), I consider it unacceptable to post such articles on public sites. Since the possible reaction of "readers" will not cause anything but negative. And we need constructive solutions.
    1. Firelake
      Firelake 20 September 2020 12: 06 New
      0
      It is necessary to protect people's minds from everything bad, no negativity. Only sheer kindness and success of Russia. Scoop-style ... how did it end remember?
  16. nikant
    nikant Yesterday, 10: 33 New
    0
    Russia is being handed over, incl. and the fleet, at the highest level, under the optimistic blah-blah-blah: the king would not give offense to the lake cooperative, which holds him by the throat, controlling him ... the fish goes out from the head ... except for land mines, there was hope for / d complexes that the Ki-patriots also buried ... they urgently need to be revived at a new level ... there is simply nothing to catch on the water and under water in this situation: for the Yankees they are easy targets ... glory to the Tsar-poo!
  17. nikant
    nikant Yesterday, 10: 39 New
    0
    some are hysterical from the alleged disclosure of state secrets ... come to your senses, for all this has not been an open secret for a long time: the rashka has long been surrendered in all directions by its high-ranking internal enemies ... it is time for the unfortunate commentators to think ...
  18. nikant
    nikant Yesterday, 10: 57 New
    0
    everything fell down and everything fell further at a high internal level: the king's lake cooperative cannot be touched ... you can only hope for mine and railway mobile complexes, but the railway was nicely removed ... so think about it ... and statistics says that the sums spent by the oligarchs on yachts and their total tonnage are akin to the costs of the fleet ... okay? Morality in this situation: definitely for mobile railway complexes! It's hard to compete with the Yankees on and under water now ...