Military Review

Following the "Armata": the crisis of the Russian submarine forces

304

The situation with Russia's submarine forces is beginning to, if not cause concern, then it makes you think very hard. On the one hand, it seems like our submarine fleet, which is not like the surface one, is the guarantor of the country's security, on the other ...


On the other hand, problems with underwater fleet did not start yesterday, and to brush them off is a crime.

For a long time, our specialized media fed us with information that “just about, the day after tomorrow, maximum next week” will begin deliveries of the next “unparalleled in the world” weapons. Naturally, with colorful descriptions of the technology of tomorrow and a hint of how hard it will be for the enemy if something happens.

And then, after the time had passed, "harsh Russian everyday life" began, stories began that all this "technology of tomorrow" would definitely be with us tomorrow, but for now we have nowhere to go with the technology of today.

And those who yesterday cheerfully broadcast that they would enter the army tomorrow, today they began to broadcast that instead of the "Armata" the T-72 would serve well, instead of the "Coalition" - "Akatsiya", and instead of the Su-57 it is quite good and Su-35.

The Su-35 is really no worse than the Su-57 in the first iteration, fact. Another question is whether it was worth shouting so much about the "fifth generation fighter" ...

Everything is about the same in the navy. We are already familiar with the problems in terms of building modern surface ships; apparently, the time has come to assess how things are with the submarine fleet.


Not so long ago, the head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) Alexei Rakhmanov made a statement that the decision to build for the Pacific Fleet not Project 667 Lada boats, but Project 636 Varshavyanka was absolutely correct.


"Varshavyanka", you know, are more time-tested, and "Lada", at least more modern, but with them, USC would constantly disrupt delivery times.

I translate into normal language: the boats of the project 677 "Lada" at the USC are not yet able to build. And so far they have no idea how to do this within the time frame, which, by the way, no one has appointed.

Interesting, right? No one sets the deadlines, but the head of the USC is sure in advance that the corporation will not meet them.

Good attitude. So optimistic.

And the fact that Rakhmanov admits that Lada is a cut above Varshavyanka does not add to the good mood. As well as confidence in the future. Because "Lada", which is better than "Varshavyanka", despite the common ancestor, Project 877 "Halibut", cannot be built.

One was actually built. Started in 1997, commissioned in 2010. Amazing efficiency, so to speak. But the B-585 "St. Petersburg" did not become a full-fledged combat submarine.


I didn’t, because they could not build and bring it to mind. The volume of imperfections is too great: an unfinished engine, unable to develop more than 50% of its design power, an absolutely inoperative Lira hydroacoustic complex (costing almost one and a half billion rubles, if anything), in fact, an inoperative Lithium information and control system.

Against the background of all of the above, the problems with the TE-2 torpedoes are small things.

It is clear that there could be no question of putting "St. Petersburg" on alert. This is really not a combat boat. Therefore, until now, the B-585 vegetates in the rank of "experimental boat". On it, perhaps, something is being tested, tried and so on. But the question is: was it built for this?

And two other boats of this long-suffering project are still at the factory. B-586 "Kronstadt" was laid down in 2005, and should be delivered to the fleet in 2021. B-587 "Velikie Luki" was laid down a year later, in 2006. Accordingly, they promise to transfer it in 2022.

Building a diesel submarine for more than 15 years is, of course, the level of a "great maritime power", as some of our "experts" believe. Meanwhile, the Germans have been building their Project 212 boats for 5 years. But this is so ... Are the Germans good for us?

So the decision to build the Varshavyanka for the Pacific Fleet is a completely sensible and clever decision. The Pacific Fleet is the fleet of the region in which we have problems. First of all, they are territorial, with a country that, unlike Ukraine, which has claims, but does not have a fleet, has a simply magnificent strike fleet.

The decision, of course, was not made from a good life, but exactly the opposite. Again T-72 instead of "Armata". Alas.


Especially considering the indisputable fact that "Varshavyanka" is still a modernization of "Halibut", project 877. And this project was born in the 70s of the last century. With all the ensuing consequences. You can modernize the project half a century ago as much as you like, it will certainly get better, but ...

Halibuts were just fine boats for their time. "Varshavyanka", which turned out to be made simpler and quieter - too. Quite decent boats, there is nothing to say.

And the nickname "Black Hole" given by potential opponents is not without reason. Indeed, the Varshavyankas were quite quiet boats.

I even read such nonsense that the Varshavyanka was planned to be used in hypothetical duels against the American Los Angeles class nuclear submarines. Precisely as less noisy.


Nuclear submarine "Los Angeles"

The opinion is, of course, flattering. I don’t understand how the Varshavyanka, whose speed under water did not exceed 20 knots, could catch the Los Angeles, whose speed was 10 knots higher. Of course, diesel boats, which are ten times cheaper in cost and capable of withstanding nuclear-powered ships, seem to be yes. But not serious from the first to the last letter.

But, thank God, it didn’t come to such confrontations, and then the Americans got even faster and quieter "Seawulfs" and "Virginias", which won both in stealth and in sonar equipment. However, in terms of hydroacoustics, the Americans have always been stronger, it's a shame, but a fact.

Anyway, it is worth noting that our potential opponents did not sit idly by, and diesel-electric submarines with air-independent power plants began to appear in them. These new submarines in stealth could be equal to nuclear submarines, plus increased autonomy, and "Varshavyanka" "suddenly" ceased to be the best diesel submarine in the world.

Of course, people bought it. Great maritime powers like Algeria. But we must admit that the boats of the new generation, developed by Germany, Norway, Sweden and even Spain, have overtaken our diesel-electric submarines in many respects.

As a result, it turns out that we need a new diesel submarine. And even with a modern power plant. But it is impossible to build it for many reasons, therefore ...

So let's take a look at the Baltic. The balance of power.

Germany: 6 submarines of project 212. New.
Sweden: 5 PL. Not as new as the German ones, but still.
Netherlands: 4 PL. Swedish level.
Poland: 4 PL. New.
Norway: 6 PL. Sweden level.

Total: 25 submarines from countries belonging to the camp of potential adversaries.

What do we have? And everything is luxurious here: ONE Submarine. B-806 "Dmitrov". And this is not "Varshavyanka", it is still "Halibut", in service since 1986.


Luxurious, right? Against the background of German and Polish boats made in 2002 and later, it is simply incomparable.

Do you think that in the Pacific Ocean, where they made the epoch-making decision to build Varshavyanka, is it better?

No, it's even worse there.

The First Fleet - naturally, the US Navy. There the main striking role is played by the atomic Virginias, against which the Varshavyanka, if they have minimal chances, is really only in the form of launching a torpedo from the “quietly in ambush” position.

"Quietly from an ambush" in the ocean is a bad idea. All other actions connected with giving a course - and the American boat knits ours in a knot.

The second fleet is Japanese. Japanese Dragons are very strong boats.


Secondly, we do not compete with Japan in terms of electronics, firstly, these are next generation boats. They are equipped with Stirling engines from Kawasaki, which immediately makes So Ryu boats difficult opponents, since they are more autonomous, quieter and more sophisticated in terms of tracking and aiming equipment.

12 "Dragons" were built, but who said that the Japanese will calm down? Lately, imperial ambitions have been whipping too much there. And the boats are good, and the friends-owners-occupiers will help ...

The third fleet is South Korean. It is clear that we have nothing to share with the Koreans, but who is Seoul's main ally / advisor? Moscow? No, Washington. Hence, South Korea should be considered an ally of that side. Moreover, North Korea, behind which China looms, is on the other side of the political scales.

So what does South Korea have? And they have order.

The first generation is type 209 / KSS-I. The German project, which was bought by many countries that have not managed to succeed in building submarines themselves. Even today, a very quiet boat, perfect for coastal outrages.

Second generation. Again "German women", project 214 / KSS-II. Already built 9 and more are under construction. These boats are more modern than our Varshavyanka boats.


Third generation. On trials boat SS 083 DosanAnChang-Ho, project KSS-III. It is believed (theoretically) that this boat will become the world's best non-nuclear submarine for an indefinite period. Air independent power systems, excellent underwater speed (20 knots), cruising range of 10 miles.

There is a suspicion that the Korean shipbuilders, who are now definitely the best in the world, were provided by someone very kind with good and modern technologies, putting the Koreans into a new orbit. And this is a very unpleasant moment, because who knows, will the Koreans limit themselves to the declared nine boats of the KSS-III project, or, like the Japanese, will they have an appetite for eating?

So, it turns out, to say that the situation in the Pacific Ocean is not in our favor is to say nothing. 20 (out of 70 of the total number, for example) American nuclear submarines (well, there are no diesel submarines in the USA at all), 12 Japanese, about 20 South Korean ... Even the Korean ones can be ignored, and here's why.

At the Pacific Fleet in our ranks:
- 1 Project 971 nuclear torpedo submarine (three under repair);
- 5 diesel-electric submarines of project 877 "Halibut" (built in the 90s);
- 1 diesel-electric submarine of project 633 "Varshavyanka".

Well, really, Koreans can not be called to the war. And so the alignment will be 5 to 1 not in our favor.

Yes, we will talk about nuclear submarines in the next article, everything is more than interesting there too.

And most importantly, we somehow do not have allies. Yes, North Korea's non-nuclear submarine fleet consists of more than 70 diesel-electric submarines. But, like everything else in the DPRK, this is old stuff bought back in the USSR and from the countries participating in the Warsaw Pact on the cheap.

China ... I don't even want to talk about China, because China has its own road.

So six "Varshavyanka", albeit modernized for the KR "Caliber" - this is an average such argument. What's the point in a modern cruise missile if its carrier is "burnt" as soon as it leaves the harbor?

Of course, "Caliber" with a "special warhead", that is, a nuclear warhead - yes, this is a very high-quality argument in the dispute "who is cooler". But the argument still needs to be conveyed to the opponent. But with this just problems can arise.

So the ratio is not 5 to 1, but 3 to 1, plus "Calibers" - this is already more bearable, if ...

If they are built.

But with this we have again ... as always. It seems that the boats have been mastered, everything seems to be there, but, alas, the USC (according to the press service of the corporation) in August "was a little out of the construction schedule." And the laying of the fifth and sixth boats has not yet taken place "because of problems with suppliers."

If you look at the dry numbers, how long it takes to build one diesel-electric submarine in different countries, then bad thoughts begin to swarm in my head.

The Germans build their Project 212 boats for an average of 5 years.
The Japanese build So Ryu boats in an average of 4 years.
Koreans build Project 214 boats in an average of 2 years.

This period is very unstable in our country. It may take from 2 to 15 years to build one boat of the Varshavyanka type. And how we know how to "shift to the right" all conceivable and inconceivable terms, I think, is not worth telling.

The result is not very beautiful. We are not able to build a new boat with a modern power plant. Lada has been tortured since the 80s of the last century and cannot do anything like that. There is no air-independent power plant, and nothing can be done about this either.

So it turns out, we have only one thing left: to rivet the old and uncompetitive "Varshavyanka", obviously inferior to more modern German, Japanese and Korean boats and hope for a miracle.

But a miracle is unlikely to happen. It's not for you to draw 70% of the votes, you need a full-fledged work. And with this case in our country from year to year it is getting worse and worse.

So while the submarine "Lada" is sent to the wake of "Armata". And we will build Varshavyanka, that is, T-72. And to repair "Halibuts" so that they will serve a little more.


Now many will confidently say: we have excellent nuclear submarine cruisers. We have nothing to fear!

We will talk about the problems of building a nuclear submarine fleet in the second part.
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  1. Same lech
    Same lech 14 September 2020 04: 51 New
    +5
    In the morning, Roman spoiled the mood with his article ... could not understand how many submarines of various classes our Navy needed? what
    How much and what is needed in the Baltic ... in the Black Sea ... in the Mediterranean ... in the Pacific ... in the Arctic ... in the Antlantica ... the navel in the country's budget will not be untied from such a strain.
    1. Ru_Na
      Ru_Na 14 September 2020 05: 28 New
      20
      A large country has a large fleet. It is vitally necessary for us to maintain four full-fledged fleets and one flotilla, the task of course is of the same complexity, given that the USSR did it with great difficulty, the capabilities of modern Russia are an order of magnitude lower.
      1. Temples
        Temples 14 September 2020 10: 46 New
        -30
        I saw the word "crisis" in the title.
        Immediately looked at the author of the article - Skomorokhov.
        I do not consider it necessary to read further.
        Everything is gone, the plaster is being removed ...

        There is probably a crisis, but perhaps the author?

        I wonder how long will my comment hang? wink
        1. Yuri Vasilievich-2
          Yuri Vasilievich-2 15 September 2020 10: 23 New
          19
          Eh, honey, you have a crisis in your head. You are just one of those until the thunder breaks out, you do not cross. The article is very correct. Our fleet is only able to go beyond the booms, and with a high probability it will sink itself. And as the killers of aircraft carriers scream, it's only FOOLS screaming, not understanding what AUG is. We don't have a fleet today, no. And the country is not capable of creating today. This requires a developed and powerful economy. So it is about the army, if the USA has already delivered 5 units of 60th generation fighters to Alaska. Then, in our Aerospace Forces, none of them were correctly replaced with the Su-35, since to make several dozen SU-57s is to leave the whole people with a bare ass. This is how our army looks like. And also an example. On tank dances-biathlon, we decided to arrange shooting competitions. All missiles pass by. And they were probably trained, but not enough, those rackets are too expensive. And what then in the troops. That's so sweet.
        2. Lyudmila Shapovalova
          Lyudmila Shapovalova 20 September 2020 22: 09 New
          +1
          Skomorokhov, he is a magazine buffoon, a defeatist article
      2. NEOZ
        NEOZ 14 September 2020 12: 04 New
        -8
        Quote: Ru_Na
        A large country has a large fleet.

        149million is it a big country?
        1. l7yzo
          l7yzo 14 September 2020 13: 12 New
          +5
          The country is large not in area and inhabitants, but in place in history. Working with the public sector, there has long been a tendency - you need beautiful reports. Real deeds or prospects are unnecessary. Finally country - that's all the traders try to give an increase in money. But damn it, even in a stupid strategy, there is always - scientists, military and merchants. We need a balance - this is the key to prosperity. We have a soldier run by merchants. BUT I am glad that according to the genre there is always a change of eras and any distortion always strives to correct itself. So we are all doomed to a bright, happy future in abundance - both material goods and spiritual ones.
    2. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 14 September 2020 05: 47 New
      51
      Quote: The same Lech
      In the morning, Roman ruined the mood with his article ...

      Straight off the tongue ...
      Here is a "great victory" after a three-day "naked popping" and "inconspicuous stuffing" with a turnout of 20%, and Roman again posted this negative.
      There are shortcomings in our country, but the authorities are fighting them. This one is the last ... wassat
      1. NEOZ
        NEOZ 14 September 2020 12: 05 New
        -27
        Quote: ROSS 42
        Here is a "great victory" after three days of "naked popping" and "inconspicuous stuffing" with a turnout of 20%

        what are you unhappy with?
      2. bayard
        bayard 14 September 2020 12: 59 New
        35
        Everything is correct in the article, the crisis with new types of diesel-electric submarines and VNEU is obvious to them. But with the construction time of the 636.3 project, he squeezed, the construction period of such ships is 2,5 - 3 years. Well, with delays and other coronavirus up to 3,5. They are going on about the schedule. Therefore, for the Pacific Fleet 6 pcs. nevertheless, they will build more or less on time, and then 4 more pieces. for the Baltic ... But what's next is a question.
        And so on for all other programs. Spoons are not ripe for "dinner", even the old model ... AND THIS is the quality of management.
        Overall quality of management.
        And not only in military construction.
        And the awareness of this ... spoils the mood.
      3. NEOZ
        NEOZ 14 September 2020 15: 26 New
        -14
        Quote: ROSS 42
        There are shortcomings in our country, but the authorities are fighting them. This one is the last ...

        Well, who gives you a "+"?
        as many as 36 people ..... a person who does not understand the difference between buying a product and technology ...
        1. Essex62
          Essex62 14 September 2020 20: 41 New
          15
          Comrade, I am on the verge of losing my job and will be left without funds. Before retirement like before China in a well-known position thanks to your employers. Can you help your collective farm to get a job for the power to drown. I do not guarantee the truth that I will not vomit from disgust.
          1. NEOZ
            NEOZ 15 September 2020 11: 48 New
            -2
            Quote: Essex62
            Can you help your collective farm to get a job for the power to drown.

            make a resume and post it on xx or supersup.
            Throw a link to your resume in a personal.
            let's see what we can do for you.
            1. Essex62
              Essex62 15 September 2020 18: 02 New
              +2
              No, they offer a penny salary there. And he sent you the system, told how everything was good and dripped. And not sickly probably sticks, since it's so across the stream, swallowing cons in batches, are you agitating for moneybags?
              1. NEOZ
                NEOZ 16 September 2020 13: 45 New
                0
                Quote: Essex62
                No, they offer a penny salary there.

                where is "there"?
                Quote: Essex62
                And he sent you the system, told how everything was good and dripped.

                do you believe in fairy tales?
                Quote: Essex62
                , if so across the stream, cons in batches swallowing

                I have my opinion based on knowledge of life experience and their analysis. My opinion can only change under the evidence base, no minuses (crowd) can change it!
                1. Essex62
                  Essex62 16 September 2020 18: 57 New
                  0
                  How. The crowd is on VO, and you are a beacon and a giant of thought and action?
                  It is commendable. Those. since you feel good and comfortable, parasitizing on other people, you can try pink glasses and put on the rest. Remember the proverb about halva? And as a convinced Bolshevik, I don't believe in fairy tales. Especially in those that the bourgeois government tells me, yours, incl. posts.
                  1. NEOZ
                    NEOZ 17 September 2020 12: 08 New
                    0
                    Quote: Essex62
                    Are you a beacon and giant of thought and action?

                    this is your speculation. what are they based on?
                    Quote: Essex62
                    Those. once you feel good and comfortable

                    why do you think so?
                    Quote: Essex62
                    parasitizing on other people

                    can you justify?
                    Quote: Essex62
                    you can try pink glasses and put on the rest.

                    and what pink glasses are we talking about? give examples.
                    Quote: Essex62
                    And as a convinced Bolshevik, I don't believe in fairy tales.

                    Well, in fact, communism turned out to be a fairy tale ... and the collapse of the USSR is proof of that ...
                    in addition, there are many questions about the actions of the Bolsheviks ... from Ilyich in Switzerland and a sealed carriage and ending with 12 million killed in the civil war and 4 million homeless children ... 4 million children whose parents were killed by the Bolsheviks.

                    from all your comments the conclusion suggests itself:
                    You are a poorly educated rallying bawker who can only operate with slogans! are you balls?
                    you did not give a single fact / figure / percentage / comparison !!!!!!!
                    ps
                    By the way, the Bolsheviks also parasitized in public, equalizing the salaries of leaders and parasites !!! it was under the rule of the Bolsheviks that the word "pay" appeared !!!!!!
                    do not tell me the nature of this word?
                    1. Essex62
                      Essex62 17 September 2020 16: 26 New
                      -3
                      I have no desire to answer your bourgeois delirium. Delirium is delirium. Selfish psychology. 1-2% lived at the expense of all the rest, they were cleaned out, to the delight of the rest. With such a conversation should be different. (This is a part within the framework) And for the sh vamarikov, I will ask for a banter, over time. For me, a working person with more than 40 experience, and a soldier, some kind of bourgeois ... will hang labels
                      1. NEOZ
                        NEOZ 18 September 2020 11: 20 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Essex62
                        I have no desire to answer your bourgeois delirium.

                        you just have nothing to operate on ...
                        Quote: Essex62
                        Delirium is delirium.

                        this is the wording used by the Inquisition in the execution of Galileo Galilei and Giordano Bruno.
                        Quote: Essex62
                        Selfish psychology. 1-2% lived at the expense of all the rest, they were cleaned out, to the delight of the rest.

                        all you have to kill and divide the killed ...
                        Quote: Essex62
                        will hang labels

                        you would have watched yourself first ... otherwise you don't see the log in your own eye ...
                        Quote: Essex62
                        And for the ball of vamarikov I will ask for a banter, over time.

                        do not delay, ask! in my opinion, I clearly explained who you are and what you are!
                        you can even write in a personal!
                      2. Essex62
                        Essex62 18 September 2020 11: 40 New
                        -3
                        I can put as many numbers on your head as I want from the recent, Soviet past. And just from the memories of his own life. As for killing and sharing, it's your accomplices who did it, with the citizens of the USSR, ditching
                        in the "saints", for you 90s, under 20 million
                        I have nothing to discuss with you. Only Comrade Mauser.
                      3. NEOZ
                        NEOZ 18 September 2020 11: 45 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Essex62
                        I can put as many numbers on your head as I want from the recent, Soviet past.

                        I wait
                        Quote: Essex62
                        As for kill and divide, it was your accomplices who did

                        not mine, but yours! they were all communist-bolsheviks !!!!
                        Quote: Essex62
                        I have nothing to discuss with you.

                        but what about "truth is born in dispute"?
                        Quote: Essex62
                        Only Comrade Mauser.

                        the force of action is equal to the force of reaction!
                        the law of nature, however ...
                      4. Essex62
                        Essex62 18 September 2020 13: 27 New
                        -3
                        Prices for basic food and manufactured goods have not changed for decades and the average salary in the country, look in the 60-80s. And such upstarts, with conceit to the very hat, were driven. Namely, that it was so, good for everyone and not for a handful. Equality, real equality. Which is very cool.
                        The degenerates were never communists-Bolsheviks. Private property, the possibility of personal enrichment, is denied by the true Bolsheviks.
                        The truth was born long ago, in the last century still.
                        The latter is our pleasure. For a thousand years, the backbones sat on the neck of a Russian and not quite Russian peasant.
                        I realized myself and threw them into the dustbin of history. Your forerunners sat stronger, ideology was, priests, religious prejudices, but it happened.
                        You are not even thirty. The situation will ripen, it will explode in some direction. Counteraction ....
                        ,do not make me laugh.
  • Sergey Sfiedu
    Sergey Sfiedu 15 September 2020 08: 51 New
    +4
    "The authorities are fighting them. Is this the last" - the author - the last drawback in the country? Then we'll live when he is sent to Solovki! ;)
  • Grandfather
    Grandfather 14 September 2020 06: 09 New
    51
    Quote: The same Lech
    In the morning, Roman ruined the mood with his article

    until this morning, did you know about the problem? Anyone who even stuttered about it immediately signed up as "liberasts", and as "all-fenders" as jingoistic patriots, but the problem has not gone anywhere. Alas. in the "fret", 15 years poking around, and the gap is not visible, but the Baltic Fleet, it has long been clear that in the event of a mess, will be a "whipping boy", why? because the priority direction - "pipes" which, instead of profit, suddenly turned into losses (not for the "millers", of course, they get their millions per hour regularly. Even a "shark" is dreaming of being converted into a "gas carrier". it always rots from the head.
    1. Firelake
      Firelake 14 September 2020 11: 27 New
      15
      The project of converting a shark into a gas carrier was back in the USSR. Emnip read in the technology of youth in the 80s. The question is: why is it necessary now if it is much cheaper to build gas carriers? But as it turned out, we do not know how to join the fleet ...
      It's all sad to be honest: they get out old Soviet projectors, shake off the dust and try to implement it, although at the conceptual level this is already a failure.
      By the way, on the armature: this is not the first tank with an uninhabited turret, the first was made by the States. And they refused. Why? Because it is impossible to ensure combat stability. And we started doing it. The output will be the same problem, even more, since we also do not know how to use electronics ...
    2. NEOZ
      NEOZ 14 September 2020 12: 09 New
      -38
      Quote: Dead Day
      because the priority direction is "pipes" which, instead of profits, suddenly turned into losses

      there is no risk-free business !!!
      so the proceeds from gas went to retirement too !!!
      Quote: Dead Day
      of course, they get their millions per hour regularly.

      what are you not happy with? - high salaries or the feeling that someone is getting more?
      1. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 14 September 2020 12: 50 New
        26
        Quote: NEOZ
        there is no risk-free business !!!
        so the proceeds from gas went to retirement too !!!

        Sometimes I feel uncomfortable when suddenly a "new hypostasis" of the governor of Uss appears on the site, and even in this guise.
        For you, ardently in love with everything "top" young man, I will note that there is probably a risk-free business (when the rate of pumping out profits is not higher than 300%). Only the businessman himself should take risks, his capital and his own position and reputation, and not hide behind state subsidies in case of failure.
        We also remember whose pensions the proceeds from Russian gas go to, as well as the quarterly and annual premiums and bonuses ... We even know that more than 40% of this proceeds go not to the country at all.
        Quote: NEOZ
        what are you not happy with? - high salaries or the feeling that someone is getting more?

        We are unhappy with the fact that these increased salaries are the result of meager minimum wages and other extortions ripped off from a working person. And, special discontent arises from the fact that such salaries are guaranteed to us by the current government with just such a difference.
        1. NEOZ
          NEOZ 14 September 2020 13: 40 New
          -30
          Quote: ROSS 42
          that these increased salaries are the result of meager minimum wages

          Do you want a janitor to be able to afford a Porsche?
          do not want to get the minimum wage, go study !!!!! the driver in the subway has a salary of 120000.00 rubles !!!!
          Quote: ROSS 42
          And, special discontent arises from the fact that such salaries are guaranteed to us by the current government with just such a difference.

          we had a country with differentiation no more than 10 times ... so everyone ruined it! they thought they were the smartest and then everything will definitely be better than it was !!!!
          1. the most important
            the most important 14 September 2020 20: 14 New
            13
            Quote: NEOZ
            Do you want a janitor to be able to afford a Porsche?
            do not want to get the minimum wage, go study !!

            You are our scientist! Judging by the presence (absence) of punctuation marks, you are a great academician with a diploma from an underground passage and a good budgetary position, the main task of which is picking your nose with your finger.
            1. NEOZ
              NEOZ 15 September 2020 11: 44 New
              +1
              Quote: the most important
              You are our scientist! Judging by the presence (absence) of punctuation marks, you are a great academician

              I can be anyone, but unlike your brothers, I do not whine and do not think that the state owes me more than it gives !!!
            2. NEOZ
              NEOZ 15 September 2020 11: 46 New
              +1
              Quote: the most important
              you are a great academician with a diploma from an underpass and a good bread budget position

              of course, of course, everyone around is to blame, but not you !!!!!
  • Old partisan
    Old partisan 14 September 2020 06: 57 New
    50
    No navel will be untied in a great and great country. And the Moscow principality with thieving boyars will simply end.
    1. NEOZ
      NEOZ 14 September 2020 12: 10 New
      -36
      Quote: Old Partisan
      No navel will be untied in a big and great country.

      which country do you mean?
      Quote: Old Partisan
      And the Moscow principality with thieving boyars will simply end.

      what do you mean here?
    2. Dart2027
      Dart2027 14 September 2020 19: 08 New
      +3
      Quote: Old Partisan
      No navel will be untied in a big and great country.

      For example in the USSR?
      1. your1970
        your1970 17 September 2020 06: 43 New
        0
        Quote: Dart2027
        Quote: Old Partisan
        No navel will be untied in a big and great country.

        For example in the USSR?

        Untied, if you didn't notice ... And they ditched it simultaneously from both sides, and strictly according to the classics of Marxism-Leninism - the lower classes did not want, the upper ones could ...
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 17 September 2020 19: 00 New
          0
          Quote: your1970
          Untied if you haven't noticed

          This is what I mean.
  • Ingvar 72
    Ingvar 72 14 September 2020 08: 23 New
    50
    Quote: The same Lech
    the navel in the budget of the country will not loosen from such a strain.

    Alexey will not be untied if money is spent wisely and expediently. The Olympics, the FIFA World Cup are just unreasonable show-offs, instead of which one could fully re-equip the army with new equipment. Now billions are being spent on coronavirus. Yesterday I posted a video describing how in the Murmansk region. built a hospital for patients with Covid 19 from materials of the first hazard class. As a result, the hospital cannot be used. A billion (!) Budget funds for a cat in the crotch. And no one removes the governor, tk. he is from the EP. And this is not the only example of what "successful" investments in gas pipelines cost. How much equipment could be built, how many people to provide with work - oh, everything infuriates. am
    1. NEOZ
      NEOZ 14 September 2020 12: 11 New
      -39
      Quote: Ingvar 72
      if money is spent wisely and expediently.

      Well, you know exactly how and where to spend money !!!!!
      do you work in a taxi?
      1. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 14 September 2020 12: 56 New
        26
        Quote: NEOZ
        Well, you know exactly how and where to spend money !!!!!

        Didn't you get in touch with Kudrin?
        Quote: NEOZ
        which pushed many children to sports, not a bottle ...

        Are you talking about Mamaev and Kokorin?
        Quote: NEOZ
        you first sort out your investments ...

        Why should we understand? I sent an SMS to the indicated number and sent a confirmation ...
        Quote: NEOZ
        for the lived time you could achieve more than you have now !!!!

        Sorry, we were not taught to steal and rob. And also the concept of "honor and conscience" has not been deprived, we do not know how to lie and are angular in the back arch ...
        1. NEOZ
          NEOZ 14 September 2020 13: 48 New
          -29
          Quote: ROSS 42
          Didn't you get in touch with Kudrin?

          no, Glazyev's
          Quote: ROSS 42
          Are you talking about Mamaev and Kokorin?

          I'm talking about children's sports sections that grow like mushrooms after the rain!
          and I see what cars the coaches come in and what houses they live in!
          Quote: ROSS 42
          Why should we understand? I sent an SMS to the indicated number and sent a confirmation ...

          well then, everything is clear with you ... individuals who are not capable of anything, under capitalism, become beggars and die ... natural selection ...
          Quote: ROSS 42
          Sorry, we were not taught to steal and rob. And also the concept of "honor and conscience" has not been deprived, we do not know how to lie and are angular in the back arch ...

          this is an excuse for their worthlessness ...
          the salary of the pilot of the B747 aircraft is 600t.r.
          1. Ingvar 72
            Ingvar 72 14 September 2020 16: 33 New
            21
            Quote: NEOZ
            no, Glazyev's

            You don’t cling to Glazyev, he says something completely different, unlike you.
            Quote: NEOZ
            I'm talking about children's sports sections that grow like mushrooms after the rain!

            Where, what? Paid, where do you need to pay 1-3t.rub? Sports are popularized not by the Olympics and the World Cup, but by the infusion of finance into children's sports. These are free sections, and at every school. And control over the use of these funds.
            Quote: NEOZ
            under capitalism, become beggars and die ... natural selection ...

            Cynically. Have you ever wondered if your children will become natural selection?
            Quote: NEOZ
            for the lived time you could achieve more than you have now !!!!

            I have achieved - I have five children, I am happily married, I work with a salary just above the average for the region. True, the apartment and the car are on credit, but nothing, creak, puff, but pull.
            Or are you talking about other successes in life, like in the movie "The Wolf of Wall Street"?
            Quote: NEOZ
            you first sort out your investments ...

            As a citizen of the Russian Federation, I have the right to control the activities of the institution of the state, and even more so, state-owned companies. The fundamental principle is the state for people, and not vice versa, as you are trying to convince everyone here.
            1. NEOZ
              NEOZ 15 September 2020 12: 04 New
              -4
              Quote: Ingvar 72
              he says something completely different, unlike you.

              re-read his works, everything is described there (technological orders)
              Quote: Ingvar 72
              Cynically. Have you ever wondered if your children will become natural selection?

              Well, what can you do here? - you can't trample against nature !!!!
              Quote: Ingvar 72
              I have achieved - I have five children, I am happily married, I work with a salary just above the average for the region. True apartment and car on credit

              my congratulations! you have exceeded the minimum! ...
              Quote: Ingvar 72

              Or are you talking about other successes in life, like in the movie "The Wolf of Wall Street"?

              no no, your success appeals to me more! .....
              Quote: Ingvar 72
              As a citizen of the Russian Federation, I have the right

              but don't forget about responsibilities too!
              Quote: Ingvar 72
              The fundamental principle is the state for people, and not vice versa, as you are trying to convince everyone here.

              if people did not have a state, then they would be slaves ...
              1. Ingvar 72
                Ingvar 72 15 September 2020 12: 43 New
                +8
                Let's go through the last two points - I fulfill my obligations, I pay taxes of all kinds.
                Under the slave system, the institution of the state also existed. Works of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle to help.
                But in the modern world, the institution of the state positions itself as democratic, and this is the rule of the people. But in fact we have an oligarchy and a kleptocracy. So you need to either remove the cross, or put on panties.
                1. NEOZ
                  NEOZ 15 September 2020 12: 47 New
                  -7
                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  But in fact we have an oligarchy and a kleptocracy.

                  Well, operate with facts, not illusions.
                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  the institution of the state positions itself as a democratic

                  well read Machiavelli, everything is described there.
                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  Under the slave system, the institution of the state also existed.
                  were slaves citizens and had rights?
                  1. Ingvar 72
                    Ingvar 72 15 September 2020 13: 11 New
                    +4
                    I am operating with facts. And Machiavelli described only his vision, in some places really interesting and logical, but within the framework of his philosophy. Other philosophers have different views, no less interesting. So do not start from the opinion of one warlock philosopher.
                    Regarding the last phrase - are we slaves? Then why does the state behave as if we are its property?
                    1. NEOZ
                      NEOZ 15 September 2020 13: 34 New
                      -3
                      Quote: Ingvar 72
                      Other philosophers have different views, no less interesting.

                      what works do you advise?
                      Quote: Ingvar 72

                      Then why does the state behave as if we are its property?

                      the state behaves this way only towards citizens who behave destructively.
                    2. Ingvar 72
                      Ingvar 72 15 September 2020 15: 21 New
                      +3
                      I've already told you the names. Add Ilyin and Pobedonostsev.
                      The second question - from your point of view, the taxpayer's demand for elementary social justice is destructive behavior towards the state? belay
                    3. NEOZ
                      NEOZ 15 September 2020 15: 41 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Ingvar 72
                      social justice

                      this is a vague concept ... let's get specific numbers and percentages!
                      and also specify at whose expense the banquet will be. if it arrives somewhere, it will disappear somewhere!
                      it would also be nice to see the long-term implications of this social justice versus today's.
      2. Corporal Valera
        Corporal Valera 15 September 2020 09: 49 New
        +4
        I'm talking about children's sports sections that grow like mushrooms after the rain!


        It's good to carry a blizzard! I see you do not understand anything at all about what you write. As for the children's sections: If you don’t have a millionaire’s daughter, then your child will continue to work at the level of the yard team. For the sake of general development, google the prices of sports equipment and, having estimated to your nose, even a complete imbecility, it should be clear that there is no mention of any development of children's sports and its mass character. Sport now (like everything else in our country) is a matter of a select few
        1. NEOZ
          NEOZ 16 September 2020 14: 16 New
          -1
          Quote: Corporal Valera
          It's good to carry a blizzard!

          Quote: Corporal Valera
          I see you do not understand anything at all about what you write

          Quote: Corporal Valera
          If you are the daughter of a millionaire, then your child will continue to work at the level of the yard team.


          Quote: Corporal Valera
          it should be clear even to a complete imbecility


          Quote: Corporal Valera
          Sport now (like everything else in our country) is a matter of a select few


          At the last 2016 Olympics, we became fourth in both gold and total medals. Success or ...? How to count. Let's try to count more fairly: per athletic soul of the participants and per capita of the country that the team represented. A soulful approach, so to speak.
          A total of 207 teams participated. The medals were won by 87.

          The size of some prize-winning teams, the population of these countries (according to Wikipedia) and the total number of medals. The first number is a place in the gold standings.

          1. USA, 554 athletes - the most representative team. Population - 322,6 million people. 121 medals.
          One medal for 4,58 athletes and 2,7 million inhabitants of the country.

          2. United Kingdom, 336. 65,6.
          ... One medal for 5 athletes and 0,98 million inhabitants.

          3. China, 416. 1374,2.
          the country won one medal for 6 athletes and 19,6 million inhabitants. Most of the population here is engaged in work, not sports.

          4.Russia, 282. 146,5.
          As a result of doping pressure, more than 90 athletes and weightlifters from Russia did not go. With them we confidently took the second place in the medal standings. Nevertheless, we have one medal for 5,04 athletes (bypassed China) and for 2,6 million inhabitants. Almost like the USA.


          I would like to see your thoughts on these numbers.
          1. Corporal Valera
            Corporal Valera 17 September 2020 09: 49 New
            +3
            I would like to see your thoughts on these numbers.


            The numbers are just great! Perfect for experts on all matters. Have you ever heard about team selection, quotas and licenses? Or do you think that China, given the opportunity, could not field 10 times more athletes? So the ratio of medals to the number of population goes to the income. In general, the total number of medals per capita in China is much less than that of Ethiopia. So you don't lay out our thimbles here! This time. The ratio of medals to the number of athletes is as it is. If my grandmother had a beard, she would be a grandfather. Your "doping pressure" was not born out of nowhere. Sochi medals continue to be taken away, the reaction of the functionaries is 0,0, they have been dully removed from sin ... So the snout is in sour cream. They are being dismissed by whole teams, and in Pyeongchang they have been handed a white rag. It is customary to bend suckers everywhere. "Great sports power", cho! Not a single federation is able to push through its position. Shall I tell you how the Union would behave in this case? I would send three letters to the IOC and hold the "Goodwill Games", where no fewer participants would come than to the Olympic Games. This is Great
            sports power was, and you are a third world country. And the attitude is appropriate.
            1. NEOZ
              NEOZ 17 September 2020 12: 35 New
              -3
              Quote: Corporal Valera
              The numbers are just great!

              bring yours!
              Quote: Corporal Valera
              Have you ever heard about team selection, quotas and licenses?

              well tell us about it
              Quote: Corporal Valera
              then China, if possible, could not exhibit 10 times more athletes?

              how would this affect medal results?
              Quote: Corporal Valera
              So the ratio of medals to the number of population goes to the income.

              apparently, you sent your upbringing there .... do you have a surname of balls?
              Quote: Corporal Valera
              So you don't lay out our thimbles here!

              make an effort, spread your thimbles ... if you're smart enough ...
              Quote: Corporal Valera
              dully removed from sin away ... So the snout is in sour cream.

              this means that you did not complete the assigned tasks ... or completed and moved on to another task.
              sour cream is your speculation!
              Quote: Corporal Valera
              and you are a third world country.

              What country are you from? apparently 404?
          2. Corporal Valera
            Corporal Valera 17 September 2020 10: 16 New
            +3
            Now a question for you. Good racing skis, for example, cost 40 sput. It is desirable to have 4 pairs of them, plus two training rubles for 15. Good sticks - 10 sput. You need three pairs. Boots -15-20. We need two pairs and change once a year. Warm-up and racing suit - 15 sput together. They need to be changed every season as the child grows. About such "little things" as drinkers, gloves, hats, lubricants, I even keep quiet. Although fluorine lubricants start at 2,5 rubles. Attention, the question: how much should parents receive to provide the child with equipment, taking into account that there are two teenage skiers in the family? And what mass of the population can afford it? And yes, the sections are free.

            This is about the mass character of children's sports.
            1. NEOZ
              NEOZ 17 September 2020 13: 18 New
              -2
              Quote: Corporal Valera
              Attention, the question: how much should parents receive to provide the child with equipment, taking into account that there are two teenage skiers in the family?

              skiing has never been cheap!
              and with the union of the ski you had to buy it yourself!
              and for free you were given polsport ... for special merits they received youth ...
              and now the ski school has free skis and boots (after rental).
              in this regard, nothing has changed, it even became better than it was under the USSR.
              however, as in the USSR there were no skiers, so there are none now.
              and do not forget that children showing good results go to training camps in Russia, as well as to European countries at the expense of the state !!!!!!
              Quote: Corporal Valera
              And what mass of the population can afford it?

              at the initial level, downhill skiing can be done by everyone, and then yes, it's expensive!
              and then, there are other sections where gloves / shorts / wrestling shoes / boxers / judogi / sambovs / boots / running shoes / skates and so on are incomparably cheaper!

              the main thing is that these sections are !!!

              ps
              thanks for not giving an example of formula1 and golf.
  • NEOZ
    NEOZ 14 September 2020 12: 13 New
    -22
    Quote: Ingvar 72
    The Olympics, the FIFA World Cup are just unreasonable show-offs

    which pushed many children to sports, not a bottle ...
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 14 September 2020 17: 24 New
      15
      Pushed a normal stadium near the school, a free sports section, etc. etc. We did not appreciate what we had 30-40 years ago. Here is the result.
  • NEOZ
    NEOZ 14 September 2020 12: 14 New
    -32
    Quote: Ingvar 72
    what are "successful" investments in gas pipelines.

    you first sort out your investments ...
  • NEOZ
    NEOZ 14 September 2020 12: 15 New
    -30
    Quote: Ingvar 72
    How much equipment could be built, how many people to provide with work - oh, everything infuriates.

    don't you piss yourself off? - in the past time you could have achieved more than you have now !!!!
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 14 September 2020 12: 25 New
    -18
    Quote: Ingvar 72
    FIFA World Cup is just an unreasonable show-off,

    you are wrong - this is propaganda / soft power, which has noticeably changed the opinion of foreigners about the Russian Federation ... request I personally saw the breakdown of templates when colleagues from abroad came to Eburg ... hi
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 14 September 2020 16: 28 New
      21
      Do I need this template breakdown? I need to be treated in a normal hospital, I need to drive on normal roads, I need to work at a normal enterprise and earn a decent salary. And the collapse of the templates of colleagues from abroad is not my thing.
      1. DrEng527
        DrEng527 15 September 2020 09: 47 New
        -8
        Quote: Fan-Fan
        I need to be treated in a normal hospital, I need to drive on normal roads, I need to work at a normal enterprise and earn a decent salary.

        the training manual went wink
        Quote: Fan-Fan
        And the collapse of the templates of colleagues from abroad is not a big deal to me.

        the world is noticeably more complicated than you think ... request
      2. NEOZ
        NEOZ 16 September 2020 14: 25 New
        -6
        Quote: Fan-Fan
        I need to be treated in a normal hospital

        and what is the local bad? maybe you won't smoke and drink? ..... and then we are all NOT ETERNAL !!!!!
        Quote: Fan-Fan
        must drive on normal roads

        in the Russian Federation the best roads in the CIS, what else do you want?
        Quote: Fan-Fan
        you need to work in a normal enterprise and earn a decent salary

        how much do you want to receive?
        Quote: Fan-Fan
        And the collapse of the templates of colleagues from abroad is not a big deal to me.

        everyone was just as frivolous about Russophobia in Ukraine .... the result is known ...
        ps
        people like you lead the country to ruin ...
    2. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 14 September 2020 16: 55 New
      15
      Quote: DrEng527
      I personally saw the breakdown of templates when colleagues from abroad came to Eburg ...

      What did it give the people of my country?
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 14 September 2020 19: 09 New
        -12
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        What did it give the people of my country?

        They said the same when they demanded restructuring.
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 14 September 2020 20: 06 New
          19
          Quote: Dart2027
          They said the same when they demanded restructuring.

          What does perestroika have to do with it? belay I asked a specific question, what gave the inhabitants of my homeland an ephemeral change in the opinion of foreigners?
          1000 Armata with a technical support park - this is what could have been done instead of the Olympics, it would have given more than a one-time boost to the industry. At the cost of the World Cup, it was possible to build a dozen Ash trees, or 15 full-fledged destroyers. Or three full-fledged aircraft carriers. And it's not worth talking about Lada and Varshavyanka.
          All this would raise the country's prestige incomparably higher than from cheap show-offs the most expensive in the history of the World Cup and the Olympics. negative
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 14 September 2020 21: 02 New
            -1
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            What does perestroika have to do with it?

            The words are the same.
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            At the cost of the World Cup, it was possible to build a dozen Ash trees, or 15 full-fledged destroyers.

            You outplayed computer games, it's enough to pay there and that's it. In life, in order to build a dozen Ash trees, you need to completely cure all childhood diseases of the head, and only then the rest will go. For reference, it was 2 years ago, the money was allocated even earlier, but now the Kazan has not yet been delivered to the fleet, and it’s not about the money. The rest is the same.
            1. NEOZ
              NEOZ 16 September 2020 14: 29 New
              -1
              Quote: Dart2027
              You have played computer games,

              I will support you with this conclusion!
              sometimes it seems to me that only taxi drivers write here, as you know, they are the best versed in the state structure!
          2. DrEng527
            DrEng527 15 September 2020 09: 49 New
            -2
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            1000 Armata with a technical support park - this is what could have been done instead of the Olympics, it would have given more than a one-time boost to the industry.

            how did the IVS write about 50 tons on the Tukhachevsky project? bully
  • Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 14 September 2020 13: 14 New
    0
    may I ask you a question? over 6 years the fleet received 7 Warsaw women, the 7th this year will be handed over, 2 more Warsaw women are under construction and 3 are preparing for laying. 2 Frets are being completed with delivery in the 21-22nd years and 3 more Frets are preparing for laying ... in other words, by the 24th year, 13 Varshavyank women ... Then every year they will hand over 1 Lada from those projects that exist and new ones will be laid ... how many Frets are for you do you need?
    1. Asad
      Asad 14 September 2020 17: 04 New
      +4
      Like the conversation was about the fact that "Varshavyanka" is getting old.
      1. Boris Chernikov
        Boris Chernikov 14 September 2020 20: 12 New
        -4
        1) Varshavyanka will be modernized anyway
        2) Alas, but so far nothing is better, in principle, it is still impossible to deliver. As I understand it, they decided to "modernize" and replace the VNEU with something simpler, but keep the rest of the stuffing .. in principle, according to orders, it can be seen that by 2025 the fleet should begin to receive already Okay .. in this case it is better to have "outdated" Varshavyanka than to have nothing .. and yes .. I sealed myself up .. get the 8th Varshavyanka)
        1. slm976
          slm976 15 September 2020 09: 12 New
          +2
          1. Varshavyanka has already been modernized to the most "I do not want", the modernization potential of this boat has been exhausted, then the Lada will be built when they are finished.
          2. There has never been a VNEU on the "Lada", so it cannot be replaced with something simpler.)) On the contrary, we are talking about the fact that in the future, VNEU will still be installed on the Lada, but so far this VNEU is only in the form of stands (as they write .). As far as I understand, VNEU can only be replaced with a new generation of lithium batteries .... how much "simpler" and cheaper it will be is a big question. The Japanese are developing this topic ...
          According to Ladams, there are a number of problems with new equipment, which actually distinguishes this boat from the previous generation.
          Unfortunately, the introduction of new technologies and debugging of new equipment always goes with a creak and for a long time ... here the author of the article is right.
          But where he is absolutely wrong is that he begins to compare the number of our submarines with the total number of submarines of the fleets of all NATO countries and their allies. After all, if you approach from this point of view, then building a fleet is generally useless for us - we will still be catastrophically inferior in numbers to the enemy.)))
          1. Boris Chernikov
            Boris Chernikov 15 September 2020 10: 30 New
            0
            initially, they wanted to install exactly what VNEU on Lada, but the developer thwarted all the deadlines, so this topic was postponed on the back burner ... and about the size of the fleet, you are absolutely correct ... in any case, the process is going on, and not like in zero, for example, for the same BMP - they lost it and waited for the "miracle-Kurganets" to appear instead of purchasing BMP-3 ..
            1. slm976
              slm976 15 September 2020 10: 46 New
              +1
              Yes, you are right, initially they wanted to put VNEU on LADA and, which is typical, they continue to want it now!))) But for some reason, the Ministry of Defense stopped funding this topic, and without proper funding, VNEU can be wanted for a very long time. (
              I may be wrong, but honestly I don’t remember that for the creation of VNEU the MO would allocate serious finances and it was not handed over purely through the fault of the developer, the work on it was always financed on a leftover basis ... or was carried out on an initiative basis.
              1. Boris Chernikov
                Boris Chernikov 15 September 2020 10: 52 New
                -1
                crying everything is very sad there and as I generally understood there will be a priority for VNEU on Serval ... and everything is just beginning there, but since they cannot at VNEU, then you just need to rivet diesel-electric submersibles ... In any case, turn on Suvorov's mode and wait, sir
                1. slm976
                  slm976 15 September 2020 11: 11 New
                  0
                  There is no Serval and most likely there will not be, there is a layout for the exhibition and a picture with which Malachite hopes to interest the MO and receive money for design. But I do not think that the Ministry of Defense will lead to this. Therefore, at the moment, LADA is our everything !! It is necessary to bring to mind what is and not chase after unknown mriyas!
                  1. Boris Chernikov
                    Boris Chernikov 15 September 2020 11: 13 New
                    -1
                    so while no one denies that Serval is still only a project, but you need to look at what is offered and when .. in any case, you need to look at what will be built in the second half of the 30s, so as not to step on the rake of the "new" Lada
                  2. slm976
                    slm976 15 September 2020 11: 37 New
                    0
                    So in Lada the main problem was - a large degree of novelty !! How can you get around this rake on any new project?))
                    We have problems with all new ship projects. Look at the birth of Ash or the torment from 22350. Any ship of the new project is born for a long time and in agony. It is easier for the bourgeoisie in this respect if they do not have some kind of equipment of their own production, they simply buy the necessary components from the allies, but we do not have such an opportunity - we have to do everything ourselves. No one will sell us the equipment or the technology for its production!
                  3. Boris Chernikov
                    Boris Chernikov 15 September 2020 11: 42 New
                    -1
                    So that's the point ... all that is being put now is systems that have already been developed and there is a bunch of equipment that can be developed taking into account new technologies and experience ... but putting it on Lada now is stupid, MO is against it and it is no longer possible to break the deadlines Therefore, it is optimal to have a concept for the development of the fleet for the 30s to work on a new project, given that the new equipment will go to the modernized Ladas or to a new type of diesel-electric submarine .. that it will go like a new boat is a banal formality. You are right about equipment and technologies, so they will put on Lada what can ALREADY be delivered, but for the future you need to work out the issue of developing your technologies and equipment ..
                  4. slm976
                    slm976 15 September 2020 13: 09 New
                    0
                    So that's the point .. all that is being installed now is systems that have already been developed and there is a bunch of equipment that can be developed taking into account new technologies and experience.

                    Yes, only it is precisely the refinement of these already developed systems that still slows down the launch of the series and delays the delivery of an already built ship!
                    And there will always be a bunch of systems that can still be developed, but the systems must be developed and tested not on boats, but on stands, otherwise these rake dances will be eternal!

                    Therefore, it is optimal to have a concept for the development of the fleet for the 30s to work on a new project, given that the new equipment will go to the modernized Lada or to a new type of diesel-electric submarine ..

                    What new project?))) Before the 30s, we would have received at least the first batch of combatant Ladas for the Northern Fleet and launched a Lada with VNEU into the construction, and not dream of new projects (((

                    You are right about equipment and technologies, so they will put on Lada what can ALREADY be delivered, but for the future you need to work out the issue of developing your technologies and equipment ..


                    I repeat, new technologies and new equipment should be worked out on stands and experimental ships, and not sculpted a new ship project saturated with new, non-existing equipment, and then painfully bring it to mind for decades!
    2. Beregovic_1
      Beregovic_1 16 September 2020 14: 49 New
      0
      what he is absolutely wrong about is that he begins to compare the number of our submarines with the total number of submarines of the fleets of all NATO countries and their allies. After all, if you approach from this point of view, then building a fleet is generally useless for us - we will still be catastrophically inferior in numbers to the enemy.)))
      They took it off the tongue! In general, it is necessary to compare based on the number of opponents and the tasks of the fleet in a particular theater of operations. For the Pacific Fleet 6 Varshavyanka is not enough. But the question is more about the base of the 19th brigade. Why is she needed in Vladik and why is she not in Vilyuchinsk, or in Sovgavan. The question is the same for BOD 1155. Who will provide the exit and deployment of strategists? In the Black Sea, the fleet is already the strongest in the region, there is enough brigade. At the Baltic Fleet with such depths I see 4 diesel-electric submarines only for rotation in the 5th OPESK. The Northern Fleet also needs a brigade of Varshavyanka to ensure the deployment of Boreys and Dolphins. And she will be there. I see no reason to panic.
      1. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl 18 September 2020 01: 55 New
        0
        I wonder why the Lada was again controlled at the Army 2020, if even the first one was not brought to mind ?! What's the point of this ? And why, instead of it (and together with the first, it seems like there are still a couple in the completion and so there is), not pour a little more money into the same P-750B with a closed cycle ?!
        1. Beregovic_1
          Beregovic_1 19 September 2020 14: 10 New
          0
          Because Lada is a step forward compared to Varshavyanka. In terms of the totality of characteristics, it is better, but there are problems with the battery and VNEU (or rather, problems in its absence). The fleet wants a ship that meets all modern requirements, Varshavyanka is a forced measure to replenish the ship's composition and load the industry.
  • Varyag71
    Varyag71 14 September 2020 09: 39 New
    +3
    When the punitive units will dispose of you, then you will remember your question.
  • Aleksandr1971
    Aleksandr1971 14 September 2020 09: 45 New
    0
    The author, Roman Skomorokhov, has a question.
    In principle, everything that you have written is already known to the readers. Yes, the crisis is now in all aspects of the life of the Russian people. To indicate the presence of a crisis is like saying that the Volga flows into the Caspian Sea.

    And what do you, the author, propose to do to eliminate the crisis in the construction and operation of the submarine fleet? What should be the state concept in this area? We are waiting for an answer in the second part.
    1. NEOZ
      NEOZ 14 September 2020 12: 17 New
      -20
      Quote: Aleksandr1971
      And what do you, the author, propose to do to eliminate the crisis in the construction and operation of the submarine fleet?

      all possible decisions have already been made by the MO ...
      1. Aleksandr1971
        Aleksandr1971 14 September 2020 12: 20 New
        +9
        The article was written not by the Ministry of Defense, but by Roman Skomorokhov. Him and a question.
        If the article was from MO, then I would ask MO, not you.
  • Eskobar
    Eskobar 14 September 2020 10: 09 New
    20
    If they steal less, that's enough
    1. NEOZ
      NEOZ 14 September 2020 12: 18 New
      -28
      Quote: Eskobar
      If they steal less, that's enough

      Well, start with yourself!
      1. reader65
        reader65 14 September 2020 12: 43 New
        17
        According to Credit Suisse, there are currently 246 dollar millionaires in Russia, and 264 Russians are among the richest 1% in the world. At the same time, 83% of the total prosperity in the country is concentrated in the hands of 10% of the richest citizens, the authors of the study note.

        Here you can find tanks and boats and ships and planes.
        1. NEOZ
          NEOZ 14 September 2020 13: 27 New
          -23
          Quote: reader65
          Credit Suisse

          suggesting to believe Western publications?
          according to this publication in the Russian Federation there is no freedom of everything in the world, complete totalitarianism and so on.
          Quote: reader65
          Russia has 246 thousand dollar millionaires,

          these are those who have 80 million rubles ???
          the salary of a B747 pilot is 600 thousand rubles, and in the PRC more than 1 million. rub!!!!!!!

          Quote: reader65
          Here you have tanks and boats and ships and planes

          all you have to pick up and share ...
          ps
          go to work already!
          1. reader65
            reader65 15 September 2020 03: 58 New
            +4
            Quote: NEOZ
            all you have to pick up and share.

            And you should cut off more ...
            Quote: NEOZ
            go to work already!

            All my life I have been working with a white salary, for which the Tsar of All Russia added 5 years to my pension, and threw out military service in the SA.
            1. NEOZ
              NEOZ 15 September 2020 11: 50 New
              -4
              Quote: reader65
              and threw out of service in the SA.

              and! Well, you destroyed the USSR, but what are we complaining about now?
              1. reader65
                reader65 15 September 2020 14: 53 New
                +1
                We (the people) voted in a referendum to preserve the USSR. But traitors like Sobchak and Putin, smelling a lot of money, put it on everyone. And they rob people to this day.
                1. NEOZ
                  NEOZ 15 September 2020 15: 33 New
                  -2
                  Quote: reader65
                  and Putin

                  what?
                  Quote: reader65
                  We (the people) voted in a referendum to preserve the USSR.

                  Well, why didn't you personally take up arms and defend the USSR?
                  The White Guards, for example, took up arms and defended their country (the Russian Empire) from the rebels, at the cost of their lives ... but what did you do? .... whining for 30 years that the rebels did not share with you ...
                  Gennady, you first figure it out ... I suppose, 30 years ago you dreamed of jeans and marlboros ... well, that's how you got it! Why whine now?
                  1. reader65
                    reader65 15 September 2020 19: 56 New
                    0
                    There was a case. Dreamed. Only at the end of the 80s it was possible to buy real American jeans from the forts, and a real Marlboro was sold in stores. And now so-.
                    1. NEOZ
                      NEOZ 16 September 2020 13: 51 New
                      -2
                      Quote: reader65
                      There was a case. Dreamed.

                      we now have the results of YOUR dreams ...
                      it was YOU and LIKE YOU that destroyed the USSR, and Gorbachev and others are just the quintessence YOU .............
                    2. reader65
                      reader65 16 September 2020 16: 33 New
                      +1
                      They destroyed the USSR, and now they are finishing off Russia like you. Those who say one thing and do something completely different. Then the communists did this, but now they are pseudo-patriots who are drowning in words for Russia and Putin, and the thieves themselves are utter thieves.
                    3. NEOZ
                      NEOZ 16 September 2020 17: 20 New
                      -2
                      Quote: reader65
                      They destroyed the USSR, and now they are finishing off Russia like you.

                      justify
                      Quote: reader65
                      Those who say one thing and do something completely different.

                      give examples
                      Quote: reader65
                      who are drowning in words for Russia and Putin, and themselves utter thieves.

                      justify. with examples and figures.
                      ps
                      you did not give a single fact, not a single argument, not a single figure to prove your conclusions.

                      YOU WRITE ONLY SLAGGERS !!!!
                      PPP
                      you and people like you destroyed the Soviet Union, and you don't even have the courage to admit it !!!

                      and yes! we all have what we deserve !!!! and only I am to blame for my troubles! and the citizens of this country are to blame for the troubles of my country !!!
                      if we look at the elite of the Russian Federation, we will see that their parents are ordinary people !!!!
                      like you and like me !!!!
            2. Wertgan
              Wertgan 15 September 2020 22: 10 New
              0
              You voted against ...
  • Eskobar
    Eskobar 14 September 2020 15: 00 New
    +8
    Even if I carry out bags from the factory, I won't come close to any effective manager of the state corporation in a year
    1. NEOZ
      NEOZ 14 September 2020 15: 23 New
      -24
      Quote: Eskobar
      Even if I carry bags from the factory

      do you want to carry bags and receive salary as a top manager?
      it never happens ...
      would unlearn the pilot and earn 600 thousand rubles !!!!!
      why aren't you a pilot?
      1. unhappy
        unhappy 15 September 2020 09: 55 New
        +6
        Moderators, why is it impossible to use obscenities here, but you can post such nonsense? Why isn't this bugger banned?
        PS: all 149 million will be registered as pilots!
        1. NEOZ
          NEOZ 15 September 2020 12: 15 New
          -3
          Quote: unhappy
          Moderators, why you can't use foul language here

          because there are decent and well-mannered people (apparently, unlike you).
          Quote: unhappy
          can you post such nonsense?

          well, try to justify your words, and we will appreciate.
          Quote: unhappy
          Why isn't this bugger banned?

          but what about freedom of speech? - when you come to power, you will clean up the political space worse than you cleaned up in Ukraine after 2014 !!!!
          Quote: unhappy
          PS: all 149 million will be registered as pilots!

          I gave you the pilot's salary as an example, which shows that if you are not lazy and do not drink, then you can work for decent money, and if you are a bukharik with 9th grade education, what do you want then?
          1. unhappy
            unhappy 16 September 2020 05: 42 New
            +3
            You knowingly or not knowingly insult people, they tell you about it constantly minus, the moderators do not react and you are happy ...
            do you want to carry bags and receive salary as a top manager?
            it never happens ...
            would unlearn the pilot and earn 600 thousand rubles !!!!!
            why aren't you a pilot?

            Who are you asking this question? Pensioners, veterans, disabled people? Are you aware that most conscripts in military registration and enlistment offices cannot boast of health, you ask them a question? Most people are unhealthy and not everyone is destined to receive a gift from God - good intelligence, alas, but these are people!
            Maybe you are a candidate for master of sports, you have a prestigious education, you got an excellent job without cronyism, but this does not give you the right to call people lazy or losers!
            1. NEOZ
              NEOZ 16 September 2020 13: 35 New
              -2
              Quote: unhappy
              You knowingly or not knowingly insult people

              they insult themselves, I just cover it.
              Quote: unhappy
              they tell you about it constantly minus,

              the truth always hurts my eyes.
              out, Jesus was killed for the truth ...
              Quote: unhappy
              Most people are unhealthy and not everyone is destined to receive a gift from God - good intelligence, alas, but these are people!

              my condolences ... and there are also alcoholics and parasites who all swelled and lost .... and they all have Putin to blame!
              Quote: unhappy
              Maybe you are a candidate for master of sports, you have a prestigious education, you got an excellent job without cronyism, but this does not give you the right to call people lazy or losers!

              I, like most, chose cigarettes and vodka instead of sports, I graduated from the university on the 3rd time, my work is like everyone else's .... I am a lazy person and a loser ... I am very sorry that I quit sports and dropped out of the university ... I I could have achieved much more in this life (I can see this from my classmates, who by their work achieved a salary of 450t.r.) !!!! MS in sambo would be 100%! I was the strongest wrestler in my year ..... AND I AM TOGETHER FOR IT !!!!! NEITHER PUTIN, NOR MEDVEDEV, AND ME !!!!!!!
              1. Glaaki
                Glaaki 16 September 2020 23: 31 New
                +1
                This is either a dull tralen, or you just drove. Completely finished.
                A paragraph in general. Either he has natural selection, or he stands up rocks at the expense of gold medals and a legball championship.
                1. NEOZ
                  NEOZ 17 September 2020 13: 27 New
                  -2
                  Quote: Glaaki
                  This is either a dull tralen, or you just drove.

                  justify your insults?
                  Quote: Glaaki
                  Then he has natural selection

                  do you have doubts?
                  Quote: Glaaki
                  climbing rocks at the expense of gold medals and a legball championship.

                  I understand that you have nothing to be proud of ... but you can't be so obviously jealous ...
  • Doccor18
    Doccor18 14 September 2020 10: 31 New
    +6
    I don’t understand how the Varshavyanka, whose speed under water did not exceed 20 knots, could catch the Los Angeles, whose speed was 10 knots higher. Sure

    After this "masterpiece" thought, there was no point in reading the article further. The novel is an excellent journalist who publishes successful articles, as they say, on the topic of the day. But in order to write on highly specialized topics, you need to understand them.
    They rarely go at maximum speeds, since the fullest speed gives the greatest noise ...
    1. The eye of the crying
      The eye of the crying 14 September 2020 11: 55 New
      +3
      Quote: Doccor18
      They rarely go at maximum speeds, since the fullest speed gives the greatest noise ...


      But do they go? Obviously yes.

      Quote: Doccor18
      After this "masterpiece" thought, there was no point in reading the article further.


      The main thing in the article is counting the number of submarines. If they are correct, the article is valid.
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 14 September 2020 19: 14 New
        0
        Quote: Eye of the Crying
        But do they go? Obviously yes.

        Only when they don't need to hide.
        Quote: Eye of the Crying
        The main thing in the article is counting the number of submarines. If they are correct, the article is valid.

        Not really. How do you imagine that the Russian Federation has a fleet that will be stronger than all the fleets in the world put together?
        1. The eye of the crying
          The eye of the crying 14 September 2020 19: 21 New
          0
          Quote: Dart2027
          How do you imagine that the Russian Federation has a fleet that will be stronger than all the fleets in the world put together


          No way. And it is necessary? By the way, I also cannot imagine the presence of the Russian army, air force and surface fleet, which are "stronger than all combined".
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 14 September 2020 20: 56 New
            -1
            Quote: Eye of the Crying
            No way. And it is necessary?

            According to the author of the article, it is necessary.
    2. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 14 September 2020 12: 47 New
      12
      Quote: Doccor18
      But in order to write on highly specialized topics, you need to understand them.
      Yes, you need to be competent in what you write about.
      Everyone has problems. We also have them. But bloopers can not even be forgiven not to a specialist.
      1. Non-nuclear submarines can successfully counter submarines. Gotland proved it. But even without VNEU 636 can put on a submarine, if the first is in the veil, and the second forces the PLO line ... Another thing is that by attacking this submarine, the submarine will be substituted in full. And it's not a fact that the SGPD and PTZ will not reset your attack. But our writer does not know about this, because he is not a pro. (Klimovs are not enough for everyone. Maxim is a monopoly of A. Timokhin)
      2. B-585 (not B-585) St. Petersburg "build and they could not bring it to mind. "A controversial thesis. The boat was accepted for trial operation. It is listed in the combat composition of the Northern Fleet. Now it has come to St. Petersburg and is being upgraded. Rubin is closely engaged in it, because the ship is stronger in terms of armament than 885. the project turned out.
      3. About SJSC "Lira". This is a new generation complex. There is a serious suspicion that it is he (like him) that will be installed on the 885M project. Partners generally write that it is installed in Kazan.
      4. GA at the Yankees is stronger. This is probably the case in practical terms. But why does everyone unanimously forget (don’t know?) That we already have digital SACs with ELF prefixes and electronic libraries of g / a signatures of Ajax-type targets, which successfully detect and take on tracking even absolutely noiseless underwater targets ... Yes , they are few, but they are in the gland. But why our industry is not able to produce them in the required quantity is a question from another opera ...
      5. In the Baltic, the situation with boats is bad. That's for sure. But where did the author get 4 "modern" submarines from the Poles - this is a question for the studio! Cobens are a long time ago. And what the psheks are going to buy is a matter of the future. The A26 is still being developed by the Swedes, and French rocketry are very expensive and may not be affordable.
      The trouble of the Russian submarine fleet is not only in the pace of its construction, but in the bureaucracy of effective managers, in the absence of modern PTZ and SGPD, in the slowly resolved issues of equipping ships with the latest maintenance.
      But that is the question for USC and KTRV.
      1. slm976
        slm976 15 September 2020 09: 59 New
        +1
        Damn, well, at least one adequate comment!) Everything is on the case and without going to extremes!
  • New
    New Year day 14 September 2020 13: 23 New
    +8
    Quote: The same Lech
    In the morning Roman ruined the mood with his article.

    So he does not shout "Hurray!", He walks on the ground
    Quote: The same Lech
    the navel in the budget of the country will not loosen from such a strain.

    Several variants:
    1. Do not steal
    2. Don't waste
    3. During the "golden rain" it was necessary to develop our own production, and not store the loot abroad
    4. Do not invest in hyper- super- mega-projects without economic return tomorrow, and not in 30 years
    And so on trifles, on the bottom of the barrel, to fill the treasury.
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 14 September 2020 18: 01 New
    -2
    No need to think, everything is clear - "the boss is all gone." Especially hung the saying: "the speed is 10 knots more than that of the" Warsaw "))) if the" moose "goes to 30 knots, which is by no means a fact, since there are no exact data in open sources, it will" roar "for the whole Pacific Ocean or only half?)))
  • Maz
    Maz 15 September 2020 08: 51 New
    0
    And this romance of buffoons does he definitely have to do with the navy or just decided to sketch? Of course, there are fools in the General Staff of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and have forgotten to consult with him. Too many unfounded statements and words. I don't believe you, sir. I trust my familiar officers from the Northern and Black Sea Fleets. It's just a bunch of vershoks that the author has picked up somewhere, and thinks that he grabbed the essence, but in fact he got into the donut hole, dumping everything in one heap.
  • Maz
    Maz 15 September 2020 17: 00 New
    -2

    "Hold on, caperanga Seryoga!" - from 33 seconds. Better listen to the song, and look into the faces of these sailors, instead of this muddy text
    Notches on the case of the cabin,
    And in the mines there are gifts from Transmash,
    If you have to, then it will shudder
    Our underwater iron!
  • Yuri Shalnov
    Yuri Shalnov 18 September 2020 19: 17 New
    0
    No money, but you hold on! Where's the money? They are in a safe place offshore on the personal accounts of Putin's brothers-druzhbanov ...
  • Crabong
    Crabong 14 September 2020 05: 02 New
    +8
    The Baltic Fleet and Pacific Fleet are generally formal fleets. The only fleet that can more or less operate is the SF. Well, the Black Sea Fleet between Novorossiysk and Sevastopol can swim ...
  • parusnik
    parusnik 14 September 2020 05: 23 New
    36
    It's all sad ... In our town, SRZ, a branch of Zvezdochka, has a debt of about 100 lam, exists at the expense of the rest, they changed the management, brought the dock, they can't "unfreeze", there are no personnel ... They left for retirement. ..
    1. Same lech
      Same lech 14 September 2020 05: 32 New
      +3
      the debt is about 100 lyam, it exists at the expense of the rest, they changed the management, brought the dock, they cannot "unfreeze", there are no personnel ...

      Peter 1 and Comrade Stalin are not present to make people move.
      In general, the general feeling in the country is as if they lived one day and this is already good. crying
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 14 September 2020 06: 04 New
        18
        Where to move ... Our local, commercial technical schools, lawyers, pharmacists, winemakers, hotel service managers, accountants, economists are preparing. There is no pharmaceutical industry, so many winemakers are out of work, these are also in the queue for work, as are lawyers ...
        1. Same lech
          Same lech 14 September 2020 06: 06 New
          12
          Our local, commercial technical schools, lawyers, pharmacists, winemakers, hotel service managers, accountants, economists prepare.

          These are the consequences of state policy and the market economy ... which are moving there I don't know where. what Either there will still be ... a comrade or Mr Putin does not have a long-term and understandable state policy ... in general, we live one day and react to short-term problems without looking far ahead ... in general, there is no strategy within the country.
          1. parusnik
            parusnik 14 September 2020 06: 24 New
            24
            in general, there is no strategy within the country.
            .... And what is there? "There is no money, but you hold on" ... Oh, yes, there are heaps of sausages and toilet paper, there are a lot of cars, cars, you can buy apartments if you put on the yoke of a mortgage, go abroad and drink local vodka. ... laughing "This is happiness, isn't it, Fun?" (C) .. Dreams come true ... laughing
            1. Same lech
              Same lech 14 September 2020 06: 28 New
              +6
              Dreams Come True...

              Then the eternal Russian question arises ... What to do? ... which has been tormenting the Russian people since the time of Chernyshevsky ... the damned philosophical question of the Russian State.
              1. Boa kaa
                Boa kaa 14 September 2020 13: 00 New
                +9
                Quote: The same Lech
                Dreams Come True...

                Then the eternal Russian question arises ... What to do? ... which has been tormenting the Russian people since the time of Chernyshevsky ... the damned philosophical question of the Russian State.

                This is half the battle!
                Soon the search for an answer to the second question will begin: WHAT IS GUILTY !?
                Then it won't seem a little ...
                AHA.
          2. Per se.
            Per se. 14 September 2020 09: 00 New
            19
            Quote: The same Lech
            the consequences of state policy and the market economy ... which are moving there I don't know where.
            Yes, they all know perfectly well. They riveted the "Soros chicks" in selected capitalism, in not our-our Sberbank, which actually sits under the Federal Reserve System, and strengthens the US economy.

            In general, it feels like the main task of our bad boys is to destroy the remaining potential from the superpower, the Soviet margin of safety and Soviet morale. Education, science, clearly did not get better. Mainly they build new shopping centers and hubs for pumping raw materials, against the backdrop of the collapse of production, optimizations and reductions. The pandemic additionally hit the working pensioners with experience and excellent Soviet education, and there are very few new talented designers, engineers and foremen, to put it mildly.

            So what remains is to promote various "miracle weapons" to raise ratings, and to modernize and refine what is left of the Soviet backlog. These "effective managers" are sitting, smartly selling off the Soviet potential and natural resources. When there is nothing more to puff out your cheeks, in the name of peace, humanism and tolerance, it will already be possible to surrender to their masters in the West, with which, and not with Russia, all their values.
            1. Ingvar 72
              Ingvar 72 14 September 2020 16: 58 New
              +8
              Quote: Per se.
              So it remains to promote various "miracle weapons" to raise ratings

              The same was done by Hitler's propaganda at the end of the war, trying to cheer up with tales of the miracle of weapons. Everything new is well forgotten old. hi
          3. Firelake
            Firelake 14 September 2020 11: 29 New
            +3
            It does not exist in foreign policy either.
          4. bayard
            bayard 14 September 2020 13: 37 New
            +9
            Quote: The same Lech
            from a comrade or mister Putin ..

            Lord.
            The comrade is a RESPONSIBLE person, not cut off from society.
            Mister IS ANOTHER. It lives by Roman Law.
            Democracy is the power of the rich, a category of humanoid beings with all RIGHTS and freed from any responsibility. The right is inherited - DEMOS.
            That is why two categories of people are spelled out in the Constitution of the Russian Federation:
            * HUMAN - who has RIGHTS by birthright, inalienable, and is not subject to the law.
            * and a CITIZEN - having DUTIES, responsibility before the Law and regulated in his life by this very law.
            Power in a Democracy belongs to HUMANS.
            CITIZENS are obliged to pay and repent.

            The gentlemen have their own ideas about correctness, legality and expediency.
            Gentlemen and gentlemen will always agree ...
            Or they will fight with the hands of CITIZENS.
            1. Essex62
              Essex62 14 September 2020 21: 22 New
              +2
              What you wrote is a very terrible truth. So it would be intelligible to boys and girls in the 80s, in Soviet schools, universities in the army, in the family, parents conveyed thoughts about what they have and what will happen if they surrender socialism. No, they pestered about Leninism, Marxism, the great community "Soviet people" Is it common with thieves, shopkeepers, shopkeepers, liberda and outspoken anti-Soviets, such as Makar and Talkov? These have done no less, wrapping a poisonous filling in beautiful music.
        2. Narak-zempo
          Narak-zempo 14 September 2020 08: 19 New
          +8
          Quote: parusnik
          so many winemakers have been out of work

          Rather, it speaks about the quality of the "winemakers".
          Because in order to assemble a moonshine still and open a point, you don't need to learn to be a winemaker.
          And these were even taught.
        3. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 14 September 2020 17: 30 New
          +2
          Yeah. Krasnodar Territory, yes? The kids after college at the gas stations are standing at the checkout. But they are basically not ready to go anywhere to look for work.
          1. parusnik
            parusnik 14 September 2020 18: 21 New
            +2
            Why, my nephew's father, works in the North, took him to his internship, the tribe liked it. Father began to break through the topic, arrange in the North where he works or with neighbors, he was told we have our relatives. My nephew went to the army in December and will return .. They will stay again ... Well, we have nowhere to build BAM in the region and cut down forests. In Soviet times, there was one all-Union Komsomol-shock construction project, draining the Azov floodplains.
            1. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 14 September 2020 18: 25 New
              +2
              Quote: parusnik
              Father began to break through the topic, arrange in the North where he works or with neighbors,

              I know a few people in the village who travel to the north to work ... Despite how little I communicate.
              1. parusnik
                parusnik 14 September 2020 20: 00 New
                +5
                Well, why doesn't the whole village go to the North? smile Or the whole village, to develop the Far Eastern hectares ... Cut down the forest and collect cedar cones .. smile The nephew, by the way, lives in Krasnodar. Vitaly, the husband of his sister, the North, got tired of the devil, tried in his specialty, to look for a job in Krasnodar, with the salary he gets in the North ... warm places are packed, there is no such salary for him in Krasnodar, minimum 30 tyrov, a maximum of 40, and then the pull is needed. Sister, she works in kindergarten, 9 tyr salary, plus allowances total 23 tyr ... position, deputy director ... I got a job, if they had no forest in Siberia to cut down the whole family or raise a hectare , and they are playing the fool ... Yes? laughing "Frenzy of NEP, not that enthusiasm" (c) ...
                1. Cyril G ...
                  Cyril G ... 14 September 2020 20: 02 New
                  +1
                  Quote: parusnik
                  Yes?

                  Are you asking me?

                  Or the whole village, to develop the Far Eastern hectares ... Cut down the forest and collect cedar cones ..

                  I will not judge. Maybe better.

                  look for a job in Krasnodar, with what salary he gets in the North ... warm places are packed,

                  So it was quite obvious. Is not it?
                  1. parusnik
                    parusnik 14 September 2020 22: 09 New
                    +1
                    That is why the Kids after the institutes are at the gas stations at the checkout. We would be glad to leave, but romanticism is not enough, the consumer society and values ​​are such. What's obvious? Dating to have what to get a job? It was already at Ostrovsky's, the play "Profitable Place" is called almost today's situation. Yes, there were bright times, the crunch of a French roll, champagne, balls, beauties, a cadet, Schubert's waltzes. It was noticed that Ostrovsky is almost never staged in theaters ... Modern officials and merchants I don’t want to look at myself ... One thing is obvious, when he graduated from college in the early 90s, there was still a distribution, but there was no longer work in his hometown, he was assigned to the North, there was just a change of generations. Judge not lest ye be judged...
      2. Egg
        Egg 14 September 2020 06: 44 New
        13
        Quote: The same Lech
        In general, the general feeling in the country is as if they lived one day and this is already good.

        Isn't that so? Look at what is happening in the country, our thought and the government "make us happy" every day. Today I just woke up, and in the news another "joy": the Ministry of Transport again came up with amendments to the traffic rules ... and again fines ... fines ... fines .. ...
        They compete there, perhaps, who will rob the people more?
        1. Essex62
          Essex62 14 September 2020 21: 36 New
          +1
          No, they want to eat sweet with their family. But the clan of wrestlers firmly sits on the pipe and does not admit anyone to this feeding trough. Who, at one time tried to squeeze out and rewound the term and choked in the bath, or "hanged himself on a scarf." Therefore, using the power to milk the population. This is the second echelon, so to speak, with bankers in a compartment. And also every little thing, such as swindlers, with whom the state is not very handy to fight. To prove, vish, is very difficult.
      3. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 14 September 2020 09: 19 New
        +7
        Quote: The same Lech
        the debt is about 100 lyam, it exists at the expense of the rest, they changed the management, brought the dock, they cannot "unfreeze", there are no personnel ...

        Peter 1 and Comrade Stalin are not present to make people move.
        In general, the general feeling in the country is as if they lived one day and this is already good. crying

        For people to work, he needs to be paid. There are no fools to work for free
    2. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 14 September 2020 05: 55 New
      13
      Quote: parusnik
      In our town, SRZ is breathing

      How is it?
      Who is the army, aviation and navy,
      To whom a morning sandwich with caviar.
      To whom "incense" and a trap,
      To whom "money" is a suitcase.
    3. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity 14 September 2020 06: 09 New
      12
      Quote: parusnik
      no personnel ... they were retiring ...

      Everything goes to the new thirty-seventh year. The NEP ends, a world war is approaching, the people do not want to work for free, and the authorities do not want to pay for labor. So the "accountant managers" will go to the "reformer".
    4. NEOZ
      NEOZ 14 September 2020 12: 19 New
      -17
      Quote: parusnik
      Sadly that's all ...

      so this is your handiwork !!! why whine now?
      1. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 14 September 2020 13: 02 New
        10
        Quote: NEOZ
        so this is your handiwork !!! why whine now?

        Here !!! It is with whining that all posts should begin.
        You have a portrait of Lavrenty Beria on the "Ave" here ... You correct yourself there (Lavrenty Beru Ya). Otherwise, the form of the answer does not correspond to the content of the portrait.
        1. NEOZ
          NEOZ 14 September 2020 13: 50 New
          -10
          Quote: ROSS 42
          Otherwise, the form of the answer does not correspond to the content of the portrait.

          send SMS to the number and confirm ......
  • Wedmak
    Wedmak 14 September 2020 06: 28 New
    10
    A dozen countries under the leadership of the United States took up arms against us. All of them have a powerful economy, some of them are also fed by the United States. And the same USA year after year put pressure on our country with sanctions, restrictions and other things. Some of our top is bought with giblets or money, or sweet talk of the west.
    Gentlemen, the war is in full swing, actually. And the fact that it is still being waged by economic, political and verbal battles does not diminish this fact in the least.
    We cannot physically support that many fleets and armies, in all directions. Every step we take is subject to new restrictions. A striking example of Nord Stream 2, a lot of resources were spent on laying, almost completed, and then a stop is 150 km from the end point. Coincidence? Bottom line: the resources are spent, the profit is not received, and now the nerves are also shaking solvable, not solvable. Again, draining resources, this time temporary.
    I will not say that we lost, but it is very difficult to play alone with such united opponents who have in total resources more than ours, who control all the cash flows that affect international law in their hands. That is why we are investing in nuclear technology, because the rest will not give us any advantage. Not in war, not in "peaceful" life.
    1. Same lech
      Same lech 14 September 2020 07: 37 New
      +3
      Again, draining resources, this time temporary.

      This is the US policy towards Russia, to exhaust Russia economically and then, on the basis of internal contradictions and problems, change the power to a puppet one ... as long as they succeed.
    2. Daniil Konovalenko
      Daniil Konovalenko 14 September 2020 08: 14 New
      16
      All of them have a powerful economy, some of them are also fed again by the United States.

      And what prevents Russia from having a powerful economy? Why are there no private companies in Russia that built ships, planes, tanks like pancakes? And this process would take place on domestic equipment, which was also made by private capital. Where are these new factories created from scratch for the production of machine tools and equipment? Why is building in Korea faster than ours? Is Korea the fifth economy in the world ?.
      1. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 14 September 2020 09: 22 New
        +2
        Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
        All of them have a powerful economy, some of them are also fed again by the United States.

        And what prevents Russia from having a powerful economy? Why are there no private companies in Russia that built ships, planes, tanks like pancakes? And this process would take place on domestic equipment, which was also made by private capital. Where are these new factories created from scratch for the production of machine tools and equipment? Why is building in Korea faster than ours? Is Korea the fifth economy in the world ?.

        A private company will not build at MO tariffs; it will build what is profitable
        1. Daniil Konovalenko
          Daniil Konovalenko 14 September 2020 09: 36 New
          10
          Armament is no longer profitable? Machine tool building, instrument making, etc. not profitable? .. Is it profitable to order in China and sell here ..
          1. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 14 September 2020 12: 21 New
            +1
            Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
            Armament is no longer profitable? Machine tool building, instrument making, etc. not profitable? .. Is it profitable to order in China and sell here ..

            It is profitable to do what can be sold with a profit, but the Ministry of Defense will not allow you to earn extra money. Although some companies feel good, one office has created an allegedly domestic protected computer on the Baikal process at a price of 150 thousand rubles
      2. WeAreNumerOne
        WeAreNumerOne 14 September 2020 11: 25 New
        +5
        But the most expensive yachts in the world and the most satisfied officials. And in general, all power is from God. Hit with your brow.
        Russia has long been a colony of Moscow. It is generally possible to spokyly change the name of the country to "Muscovy" as it was before the reform of Peter1.
        And bureaucrats will always squeeze out private traders from the Russian Federation or put them in jail, because they are not.
      3. Wedmak
        Wedmak 14 September 2020 11: 58 New
        -4
        I think I wrote in Russian letters ...
        Year after year, the United States has been putting pressure on our country with sanctions, restrictions and other things.

        If you think that this only applies to state-owned enterprises, you are wrong. We produce the same machines, but not all of them, and some have to be taken abroad. We would take good Siemens, but we can't - sanctions, we have to take Chinese ones. And this is how it is at every step.
        You can read about new factories on the site sdelanounas.ru, but under such pressure and restrictions, they will develop for a very long time.
        One country cannot make the whole range of machines and devices, be it the public sector or private owners. This is why international trade exists. Only here at the international bazaar sits a large gopnik in star-striped trousers with a big club and singing along. And it does not allow countries that are not pleasing to him to develop.
        And so far nothing can be done with it.
      4. Winnie76
        Winnie76 14 September 2020 12: 13 New
        -1
        Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
        And what prevents Russia from having a powerful economy? Why are there no private companies in Russia that built ships, planes, tanks like pancakes? And this process would be carried out on domestic equipment, which was also manufactured by private capital.

        Five points, Daniel. And what prevents from being rich, young and healthy, and not poor, old and sick? We probably do not live in the world of pink ponies, beautiful elves and tooth fairies.
        Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
        Why is building in Korea faster than ours? Is Korea the fifth economy in the world ?.

        And tell me how much faster is South Korea building a nuclear power plant? And the spaceports? And what about the early warning systems, SSBNs, and nuclear-powered icebreakers? And how long does it take for South Korea to build 1000 km of railway lines, power lines and gas pipelines somewhere in the taiga? What sanctions are applied to South Korea?
    3. Snail N9
      Snail N9 14 September 2020 08: 44 New
      12
      Gee-gee. Near us (the place where I work now) there is a kind of "defense enterprise" - a typical "garage sharashka", located in a rented room - there used to be a carpentry workshop of one plant, which has long since "rested in Bose". So, I constantly observe what kind of "production" there is - they make some kind of sliding-lifting devices for something military. I constantly see how from rusty pipes and profiles scattered in this "enterprise" some Uzbeks are grinders, cut something off, adjust, other Uzbeks cook some constructions, ordinary welders, and all this action is carried out among the garbage, in the mud, in a cluttered, never cleaned area. The "Uzbeks" themselves are dressed in a lot of things ... Then they stretch the finished structure with an ordinary road crane to a full reach, look where something does not go or crookedly - equalize, drive it, cut it and weld it, then load it with a blank and check it again, again they adjust, when everything is more or less ready, with spray guns and brushes, right there among the debris and dirt, paint it with primer and green paint and ready, then take away what has been done ... It can be seen that this "enterprise" is focused on maximum cheapness production - all only by hand, "on the knee", around or little qualified or not qualified personnel ... Recently I witnessed how their type "master" scolded the welder - like he wastes "expensive" Turkish electrodes, but you need to use those that recently brought Russian and expired ones, the welder sluggishly made excuses - like that "ours" do not burn and coke, the seam is ugly and not even with caverns, it turns out that the "master" fucks with him with a seam - he keeps it - and okay .. . paint oh we won't see it ... "Military acceptance", you say ... Well, well ... laughing
    4. Igor Semenov
      Igor Semenov 14 September 2020 09: 38 New
      16
      resources are spent, no profit is received
      Not certainly in that way. Timchenkos and Rottenbergs received their profits. And they even dumped Stroygazmontazh and Stroytransneftegaz to the state - they no longer need it. And then at least don't dawn.
    5. NEOZ
      NEOZ 14 September 2020 12: 22 New
      -12
      Quote: Wedmak
      Bottom line: the resources are spent, the profit is not received, and now the nerves are also shaking solvable, not solvable. Again, draining resources, this time temporary.

      independence is expensive !!!!
      Quote: Wedmak
      I will not say that we lost, but it is very difficult to play alone with such united opponents who have in total resources more than ours, who control all the cash flows that affect international law in their hands.

      what does not kill us - makes us stronger !!!
  • Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV 14 September 2020 06: 54 New
    +3
    Well, at least on the topic, and not about the elections, and thanks for that
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 07: 03 New
    +6
    I don’t understand how the Varshavyanka, whose speed under water did not exceed 20 knots, could catch the Los Angeles, whose speed was 10 knots higher.

    Roman, I strongly recommend to study the history of the Second World War, in which German type VII boats, having up to 7 underwater nodes (but actually going much quieter, since at full speed the power supply is consumed ahovo) destroyed enemy cruisers and destroyers that had the maximum speed is 4-5 times more :))))
    1. Avior
      Avior 14 September 2020 07: 37 New
      22
      Destroyed until they were taken seriously. And there were already 1100 of them, not six.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 07: 55 New
        +2
        Quote: Avior
        Destroyed until they were taken seriously.

        Sergei, this issue is not being discussed here. Pay attention to this, pzhlt. And if you want to speculate from this perspective, remember the size of the PLO forces that the Allies had to create to crush the Germans
        1. Avior
          Avior 14 September 2020 08: 06 New
          16
          Drew. Here the situation is discussed purely PL - against purely PL, stretched, of course. The surface forces you mentioned, all these destroyers and cruisers, are not discussed. And, frankly, if the NK, as well as the PLO air force were introduced into consideration, the situation would be even much sadder.
          hi
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 08: 54 New
            +6
            Quote: Avior
            Here the situation is discussed purely PL - against purely PL, stretched, of course.

            Strictly speaking, no one in their right mind and sober memory will send diesel-electric submarines into the ocean. Even in theory, diesel-electric submarines can operate only in "bastions", where it will be covered while the batteries are being charged. And here there is a nuance - enemy nuclear submarines will "stay" with us even in peacetime, but in order for all the rest to come, it is necessary to break the forces providing cover for the air defense missile defense system. The Americans can do this, but they cannot do it instantly. So for some time their nuclear submarines will have to act, let's say, in the minority, and if we built normal (albeit relatively small) forces to cover the deployment .... then the meeting of diesel-electric submarines and nuclear submarines "one by one" or whatever one in British is quite possible. hi
            1. Avior
              Avior 14 September 2020 09: 14 New
              +7
              Strictly speaking, no one in their right mind and sober memory will send diesel-electric submarines into the ocean. Even in theory, diesel-electric submarines can operate only in "bastions", where it will be covered while the batteries are being charged. And there is a nuance - enemy nuclear submarines will "visit" us even in peacetime, but in order for all the rest to come

              that is, their submarines will have to quickly, therefore noisily and not covertly, go into areas where enemy nuclear submarines are already deployed, if possible promptly reinforced by enemy ASW air assets. In addition, your mission statement presupposes the initiative of the enemy, therefore, enemy diesel-electric submarines will also be deployed there earlier than their own. Such a one-on-one.
              Not to mention the fact that the range of tasks actually available to diesel-electric submarines will be very much narrowed. If the enemy does not go to the areas that you write about, then the submarine fleet will remain out of work.
              hi
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 09: 33 New
                +4
                Quote: Avior
                that is, their submarines will have to quickly, therefore, noisily and not secretly, go into areas where enemy nuclear submarines are already deployed

                what for? Diesel-electric submarines can hang out in the area for a very long time at low speeds.
                Quote: Avior
                where enemy nuclear submarines are already deployed, as soon as possible promptly reinforced by enemy air defense systems. In addition, your mission statement presupposes the initiative of the enemy, therefore, enemy diesel-electric submarines will also be deployed there earlier than their own.

                The diesel-electric submarine's task is to cover the near sea zone, so the outfit of forces described by you ... is slightly redundant
                Quote: Avior
                If the enemy does not go to the areas you write about

                Okay, he needs to open an SSBN
                1. Avior
                  Avior 14 September 2020 09: 44 New
                  +6
                  from whom the initiative comes, he will saturate the diesel-electric submarines in the deployment areas in advance, at least before the enemy. The nuclear submarine has great autonomy, so they can actually be on duty much longer - they will wait for the enemy's submarine to leave.
                  And reducing diesel-electric submarines to only one task, this means that in other cases, such as unblocking, for example, they will be ineffective, and money was spent on them.
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 09: 54 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Avior
                    from whom the initiative comes, he will saturate the diesel-electric submarines in the deployment areas in advance, at least before the enemy.

                    Not. It is obvious that the war will be preceded by a certain period of tension, during which time both sides will be able to manage to deploy their forces according to plan. If not, then, in the presence of a normal naval reconnaissance and target designation system (SMRTs), we will be able to detect anomalous deployment in nearby waters and react accordingly.
                    There is no SMRTs, it is necessary to create. But without it, neither diesel-electric submarines nor nuclear submarines will fight much.
                    Quote: Avior
                    And reducing diesel-electric submarines to only one task, this means that in other cases, such as unblocking, for example, they will be ineffective, and money was spent on them.

                    why - to one? "Gotland" on the exercises quite nicely gouged the US AUG.
                    Of course, diesel-electric submarines will not replace nuclear-powered submarines, but taking into account that 1 nuclear-powered submarine costs as much as 4 diesel-electric submarines, the latter are quite a decent means of solving problems suitable for them (especially with VNEU)
                    1. Avior
                      Avior 14 September 2020 10: 01 New
                      +4
                      Not. It is obvious that the war will be preceded by a certain period of tension, during which time both sides will be able to manage to deploy their forces according to plan. If not, then, in the presence of a normal naval reconnaissance and target designation system (SMRTs), we will be able to detect anomalous deployment in nearby waters and react accordingly.

                      or they will have time to unfold and collapse, since their autonomy is limited.
                      but about react, again a question of speed.
                      "Gotland" on the exercises quite nicely gouged the US AUG.

                      we discussed this issue with you, with the video together, I remember. An invention of American journalists with outright exaggeration.
                      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 10: 38 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Avior
                        we discussed this issue with you, with the video together, I remember. An invention of American journalists with outright exaggeration.

                        I don’t remember that I came to such conclusions :)) EMNIP "blatantly exaggerated" this episode was announced on the basis that the passage of "Gotland" was marked by its commander, but no sources were found that would confirm it from the United States (except journalists). And this is not a foundation.
                        Quote: Avior
                        or they will have time to unfold and collapse, since their autonomy is limited.

                        a usual carousel in deployment - while some are working, the second retreat and recharge, or move into position.
                      2. Liam
                        Liam 14 September 2020 10: 50 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        the passage of "Gotland" is marked by its commander

                        How interesting ... and what exactly did the commander say?
                      3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 10: 52 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Liam
                        . and what exactly did the commander say?

                        see his memories / interview
                      4. Liam
                        Liam 14 September 2020 10: 54 New
                        -2
                        Are you ashamed to show his 3-word "interview" here?)
                        This video was taken apart here during the discussion that Avior mentions.
                      5. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 11: 07 New
                        +4
                        Quote: Liam
                        Are you ashamed to show his 3-word "interview" here?)

                        Why should I be ashamed? If you want to refute me - no question, refute, at least based on the materials of the same discussion you mentioned, if in your opinion it is enough. What is the problem?
                      6. Liam
                        Liam 14 September 2020 11: 22 New
                        -2
                        https://youtu.be/Khaa3y0i87s
                        Here is the video. Can you handle the translation?
                      7. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 11: 32 New
                        0
                        Quote: Liam
                        Here is the video. Can you handle the translation?

                        I can't translate from voice. In my opinion was the full text of the interview?
                      8. Liam
                        Liam 14 September 2020 11: 36 New
                        0
                        The captain's quotes from this interview ...

                        Linden: It's dangerous to make too much noise in our work.
                        (L): With an air-independent engine, I can stay underwater for weeks
                        Commander Linden shakes his head negatively
                      9. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 11: 41 New
                        +1
                        Very good, thanks, but what does all this have to do with the issue under discussion? EMNIP in that discussion was posted an interview with the commander of Gotland. I won't look for it now, I don't even remember where it is. I propose to ask Sergey
                      10. Liam
                        Liam 14 September 2020 11: 49 New
                        -3
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Very good, thanks, but what does all this have to do with the issue under discussion? EMNIP in that discussion was posted an interview with the commander of Gotland. I won't look for it now, I don't even remember where it is. I propose to ask Sergey

                        And this is the very "interview" about

                        Gotland "on the exercises quite nicely gouged the US AUG
                        .
                      11. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 11: 53 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Liam
                        And this is the very "interview" about

                        If it is "the very same" then it does not at all refute the information that the "Gotland" succeeded in its underwater attack. He is simply not mentioned in the interview. What are we talking about then?
                        Liam, let's make it easier. Based on what data do you think that the Gotland attack did not take place, or that it was unsuccessful?
                      12. Liam
                        Liam 14 September 2020 11: 56 New
                        -3
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        What are we talking about then?

                        Exactly. What are you talking about. Who told you that Gotland sank the AUG? The commander does not even stutter about it. And you pretend as a fact
                      13. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 12: 16 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Liam
                        Exactly. What are you talking about. Who told you that Gotland sank the AUG? The commander does not even stutter about it. And you pretend as a fact

                        Liam, I've always liked the curves of your logical thinking, if I can call it that. Since I said that I could not translate from the voice, you decided to deceive me and did not give a complete translation of the text of the plot. Here is the full translation of the plot, which you "hesitated" to give:
                        Summary of conversation:

                        Reporter: It looks like an ordinary submarine, but experts call it the most deadly boat in the world. This is a real threat and we were forced to seek help from Sweden.

                        Linden: It's dangerous to make too much noise in our work.

                        (R): Frederick Linden and 29 of his subordinates arrived at the Point-Loma naval base (San Diego) to help us deal with the new-generation submarines. Ordinary boats can not stay under water for a long time, but Gotland is equipped with a high-tech air-independent system.

                        (L): With an anaerobic (air-independent) engine, I can stay under water for weeks.

                        (R): The boat can stay under water for almost a month, but at the same time it is an incredibly secretive ship - all last summer the Navy had played cat and mouse with Gotland. The boat was able to conditionally sink our nuclear submarine and the largest nuclear aircraft carrier Ronald Reagan.

                        Norman Polmar, Naval Expert: The Gotland boat “cut circles” around our AUG without obstacles.

                        (R): Countries like North Korea, Iran and China are already working on creating such boats. With submarines like the Gotland, Iran can completely block tanker traffic in the Persian Gulf!

                        Polmarn: Yes, Iran is a real threat.

                        (R): Commander Linden understands how vulnerable the United States will be if Gotland falls into the hands of our enemies. (referring to Linden) Are there places on the North American coast where Gotland cannot penetrate?

                        Commander Linden shakes his head.
                      14. Liam
                        Liam 14 September 2020 12: 19 New
                        -5
                        Do you have problems reading? Where does Linden say a word about AUG?
                        I gave you exactly all three of his answers.
                      15. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 13: 03 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Liam
                        Do you have problems reading? Where does Linden say a word about AUG?

                        Not Linden speaks about this, but Polmar. And it doesn't change anything.
                      16. Liam
                        Liam 14 September 2020 13: 05 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: Liam
                        Do you have problems reading? Where does Linden say a word about AUG?

                        Not Linden speaks about this, but Polmar. And it doesn't change anything.

                        Except that Polmar is not the commander of the submarine Gotland and not a sailor but a TV expert, yes, it does not change anything
                      17. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 13: 21 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Liam
                        Except that Polmar is not the commander of the submarine Gotland and not a sailor but a TV expert

                        A little bit wrong.
                        Norman Polmar is an analyst, consultant, and author specializing in naval, aviation and scientific and technical issues. He was a consultant or naval advisor to three US senators, the Speaker of the House and Deputy Adviser to the President, and Director of Los Alamos National Laboratory. He has written or co-authored over fifty published books and numerous articles on naval, aviation, technology, and intelligence topics.
                        Quote: Liam
                        yes, it doesn't change anything

                        Quite right, it does not change. In your mind, somehow, miraculously, the proof that Gotland was able to open the AUG comes down to whether Linden spoke about it in an interview.
                      18. Liam
                        Liam 14 September 2020 13: 51 New
                        -2
                        You wriggle in vain like that. I just showed you that your statement that there are words of the captain of the Swedish submarine confirming the "defeat" of the AUG is a fake.
                        Everything else is your fussy attempts to translate the arrows
                      19. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 15: 10 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Liam
                        You wriggle in vain like that. I just showed you that your statement that there are words of the captain of the Swedish submarine confirming the "defeat" of the AUG is a fake.

                        Learning to read
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        EMNIP "blatantly exaggerated" this episode was announced on the basis that the passage of "Gotland" was marked by its commander

                        EMNIP - If My Memory Doesn't Change. In this case, I changed, which I honestly report.
                        Quote: Liam
                        Everything else is your fussy attempts to translate the arrows

                        Nonsense. Don't confuse me with yourself, I can easily admit my mistakes :)))) But as for "fussy attempts" - I understand, you don't like being pierced like that, so why give an incomplete version of the translation of the report? It's your own fault.
                        I asked you directly
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Liam, let's make it easier. Based on what data do you think that the Gotland attack did not take place, or that it was unsuccessful?

                        You tried to lie - why are you swearing now?
            2. Avior
              Avior 14 September 2020 12: 55 New
              +2
              Now try to draw out what the commander of Gotland did not say specifically. smile
            3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 13: 04 New
              +2
              Quote: Avior
              Now try to draw out what the commander of Gotland did not say specifically

              Sergei, Linden was not asked a direct question. You have not asked me now if the Moon exists, I did not answer you that it exists. So there is no moon, so what?
            4. Avior
              Avior 14 September 2020 13: 17 New
              0
              the question is not even whether they asked or not, but what he personally said.
              If he was not asked, he personally did not say anything on his own initiative, then he cannot be referred to as a source of information.
              Note that I am not claiming that Gotland is a bad boat, but to say that her AUG is to spit is just gross exaggeration, very powerful.
              And so yes, as in the Peculiarities of National Fishing - Yes, I can put an aircraft carrier to the bottom! Well, if you're lucky, of course ..... smile
            5. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 13: 44 New
              +4
              Quote: Avior
              If he was not asked, he personally did not say anything on his own initiative, then he cannot be referred to as a source of information.

              Sergei, one more time. There were a number of publications that "Gotland" broke into the defense of the AUG. There is an English-language confirmation by Polmar in this regard. You say no, "Gotland" AUG did not master it.
              "What is your evidence?" (from)
            6. Avior
              Avior 14 September 2020 13: 55 New
              +2
              I didn’t say that.
              As far as I heard, there were checks, when the AUG was artificially placed in obviously unfavorable conditions in areas with complex hydrology, where in real conditions the AUG would simply not have gone, and Gotland was put up there for verification.
              Out of all this, a couple of journalists, who wanted to prove that the States needed to spend more money on defense, made an unconfirmed report, which the Swedes later reprinted, and then died out.
              And when it came to the native aspens, it turned into mass hysteria that drowning AUG is a trifling matter. smile
            7. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 15: 16 New
              +4
              Quote: Avior
              As far as I heard, there were checks, when the AUG was artificially placed in obviously unfavorable conditions in areas with complex hydrology, where in real conditions the AUG would simply not have gone, and Gotland was put up there for verification.

              Kaptsov once wrote that such exercises were carried out in Hawaii and in the Mediterranean. He usually draws from English-speaking sources, since he speaks British
              Specifically, Gotland "took" the American AUG about 100 nautical miles off the coast of the United States, where the depth ranges from 1000 to 2000 meters.
              What complex hydrology is there?
            8. Avior
              Avior 14 September 2020 15: 28 New
              -2
              I have seen no confirmation of Gotland's success.
              Video is definitely not.
            9. The comment was deleted.
  • SVD68
    SVD68 14 September 2020 13: 19 New
    +3
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Norman Polmar, Naval Expert: The Gotland boat “cut circles” around our AUG without obstacles.

    Imagined how a 7-knot submarine cuts circles around the 25-knot AUG. Fantastic somehow.
    Rather, the AUG was spinning around the exercise area and constantly passing next to the submarine.
  • dauria
    dauria 14 September 2020 13: 40 New
    +2
    Imagined how the PL on 7 knots cuts circles around the AUG


    laughing Of course you're right. Dieselukha under water is just a crawling mine with brains. All the successes of the Germans at the beginning of the war were based on night surface attacks and the use of radio. A curtain of a dozen boats unfolded, then one lucky one sat on the tail of a slow-moving convoy and waited, giving signals, while the rest came up. This sometimes took several days.
    With the advent of locators, they were driven under water day and night - that's all. Only rare single random attacks when lucky to be on the way.
    Dieselukh is helpless without aviation and a powerful surface fleet. The enemy will either leave or hunt down.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 13: 49 New
    +3
    Quote: SVD68
    Imagined how a 7-knot submarine cuts circles around the 25-knot AUG. Fantastic somehow.

    Joint Task Force Exercise 06-2 Gotland went to the AUG-order, conditionally destroyed the submarine covering it and aimed the AB "Ronald Reagan". "cut circles" in this case - an artistic exaggeration, and it is strange that I should explain this
  • Liam
    Liam 14 September 2020 13: 55 New
    -3
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    conditionally destroyed the nuclear-powered submarine covering it and aimed the Ronald Reagan AB

    It is too
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    artistic exaggeration,
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 14: 37 New
    +1
    Quote: Liam
    then too
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    artistic exaggeration,

    Prove :)
  • SVD68
    SVD68 14 September 2020 15: 25 New
    -3
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Joint Task Force Exercise 06-2 Gotland went to the AUG-order, conditionally destroyed the submarine covering it and aimed the AB "Ronald Reagan". "cut circles" in this case - an artistic exaggeration, and it is strange that I should explain this

    But I think that this is no exaggeration. This is deliberate misinformation. How many since then has the United States built, or at least laid down a non-nuclear submarine? And the Premier League?
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 16: 09 New
    +7
    Quote: SVD68
    But I think that this is no exaggeration. This is deliberate misinformation. How many since then has the United States built, or at least laid down a non-nuclear submarine? And the Premier League?

    Victor, why would the Americans build a nuclear submarine? What tasks as part of the US Navy will these nuclear submarines solve? What enemy AUG to sneak up on? :))))))
    The Americans have no need to build nuclear submarines, they have a need to be able to defend themselves against nuclear submarines.
  • SVD68
    SVD68 14 September 2020 16: 52 New
    -1
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    What tasks as part of the US Navy will these nuclear submarines solve? TO

    Submarine hunter: "Conditionally destroyed the submarine covering it."
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 15 September 2020 06: 55 New
    +2
    Quote: SVD68
    Submarine hunter boat

    Will not work. American naval power is based on SSBNs as strategic nuclear forces, MPSS in our near sea zone to destroy our SSBNs and also AUG as general forces.
    US SSBNs do not need cover for SSBNs (there are more than enough other means, and we, in principle, cannot establish patrolling at their bases) SSBNs are not mobile enough to operate in conjunction with AUG and not enough autonomous and fast enough to catch SSBNs.
    In other words, non-nuclear submarines are a threat to the United States, but the U.S. non-nuclear submarines themselves are not needed
  • Avior
    Avior 14 September 2020 12: 53 New
    -3
    I remember that I gave a link to the text version of this plot
  • Avior
    Avior 14 September 2020 12: 52 New
    -2
    the commander of Gotland, nothing was noted in that plot, except for a couple of short phrases in the style of "caution, here is a step", everything that is inflated in Gotland came only from the Americans in the plot.
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 14 September 2020 12: 31 New
    +2
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Obviously, the war will be preceded by a period of tension,

    IVS also thought at 41 request
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    There is no SMRTs, it is necessary to create.

    and what prevents to create at least on the approaches to bases and bastions? Malice or lack of leadership competence? repeat
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 16: 03 New
      +2
      Quote: DrEng527
      IVS also thought at 41

      So he was, which allowed us to prepare the border districts for war - the same "fees" gave about 800 thousand recruits
      Quote: DrEng527
      and what prevents to create at least on the approaches to bases and bastions? Malice or lack of leadership competence?

      50/50
    2. DrEng527
      DrEng527 15 September 2020 09: 45 New
      0
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      the same "fees" gave about 800 thousand recruits

      half-measures - tactics damaged the most - not to succumb to provocations ...
    3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 15 September 2020 10: 55 New
      0
      Quote: DrEng527
      half-measures - tactics damaged the most - not to succumb to provocations ...

      Sergei, I studied that story quite thoroughly at one time. There were basically no winning scenarios. And I want to tell you - if you take into account the information that Joseph Vissarionovich had at that time and put yourself in his place without an afterthought - you would, with a probability of 99,9%, do the same thing that he did.
    4. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 15 September 2020 11: 18 New
      +1
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      There were basically no winning scenarios.

      There is one interesting option. They even tried to model it on the East Front military simulator. The conclusions are extremely interesting. But it is not necessary to discuss here ...
    5. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 15 September 2020 11: 21 New
      0
      Quote: Cyril G ...
      There is one interesting option. They even tried to model it on the East Front military simulator. The conclusions are extremely interesting.

      But briefly, in a nutshell? hi
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 15 September 2020 11: 22 New
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    ... There were basically no winning scenarios.

    from what? if June 22, then yes, but if we return to August 39, then there are many options request
    And there are very good ones until June 40, but after that the options are one worse than the other, but the IVS chose one of the worst ... request

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    and put yourself in his place without any afterthought - you would, with a 99,9% probability, do the same as he did.

    You are absolutizing afterthought - see Churchill's behavior! And this is at the political level! It's hard to talk about the military strategic one at all - to start the formation of the 21MK without having the resources and thus, in fact, defeat the tank troops BEFORE the war is nonsense ...
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 15 September 2020 11: 42 New
    +1
    Quote: DrEng527
    from what? if June 22, then yes, but if we return to August 39, then there are many options

    At the same time, in terms of ensuring the combat capability of the Red Army, they chose the best - they put Tymoshenko, who from the "something" that was in the place of our Armed Forces nevertheless made at least something by 1941. And this something by June 22 turned out to be better than the French and Poles, although worse than the Wehrmacht.
    Quote: DrEng527
    And there are very good ones until June 40,

    With only afterthought
    Quote: DrEng527
    but after that the options are one worse than the other, but the IVS chose one of the worst ...

    Really the best
    Quote: DrEng527
    You are absolutizing the afterthought - see Churchill's behavior!

    Look. And what good was there, Winston our Spencer?
    Quote: DrEng527
    It's hard to talk about the military strategic one at all - to start the formation of the 21MK without having the resources and thus, in fact, defeat the tank troops BEFORE the war is nonsense ...

    (heavy sigh) - this is with an afterthought - delirium. And without an afterthought - you are sitting in a Stalinist armchair, and you are informed that today, that is, in 1941, Germany is quite capable of attacking you with no less than 12 tanks (!), Brought together in tank corps, 000 tanks each. Which have proven themselves well in Poland. But that in 700 it most likely will not collapse, because most of its 1941 divisions (!!!) are not deployed on the border with the USSR. (and by June there were about 250 of them on our border, that is, less than half of those reported by intelligence!)
    More details about the evolution of our tank forces, my thoughts are here https://topwar.ru/156232-predvoennaja-struktura-avtobronetankovyh-vojsk-rkka.html
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 15 September 2020 12: 30 New
    -2
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    chose the best - put Tymoshenko,

    the best is debatable - a sane ... question - why was it necessary to wait for the defeat in Finland?
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    this something by June 22 was better than the French and Poles

    the indicated did not have so much strength and such strategic depth ... request
    the same Englishmen in Africa ran like us ...
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Really the best

    Are you seriously? in a year the IVS "achieved" a lot - a united Europe against us - from Spain / France to Finland / Romania request It's brilliant to unite and rally all your enemies into one ... request
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    And what good was there, Winston our Spencer?

    He accurately understood the interests of England and did not rally, but broke the alliances of his enemies request
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    You are sitting in a Stalinist armchair, and you are told that already today, that is, in 1941, Germany is quite capable of attacking you with no less than 12 tanks (!), Brought together in tank corps of 000 tanks each.

    1) It is necessary to check the capabilities of the industry and the fuel balance of Germany, the possibility of training the crews ... but this is not serious - the IVS fundamentally did not understand these issues ...
    2) Check your capabilities in the tank industry and fuel
    3) Start the formation of VET reserves (by the way it was done)
    4) To study other possibilities of creating a PTO - minefields, etc.
    5) Strengthen the power supply in this direction
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    But that in 1941 it most likely will not collapse, p

    it's not a matter of fortune-telling ... the country must be ready to hit in the summer ...
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    https://topwar.ru/156232-predvoennaja-struktura-avtobronetankovyh-vojsk-rkka.html

    thanks - read! you write everything correctly, including why it was impossible to form another 21 MK - there is no base ... the only thing I disagree with is that light machine-gun tanks (t-37, etc.) were ballast for tank troops and they could be leave in the infantry divisions ...
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 15 September 2020 13: 27 New
    +1
    Quote: DrEng527
    the best is debatable - a sane ... question - why was it necessary to wait for the defeat in Finland?

    How could Vissarionych know how much everything was wrong with the army? That things were not very good there - it was clear even so. they just got rid of the territories, but in general ...
    Quote: DrEng527
    the indicated did not have so much strength and such strategic depth ...
    the same Englishmen in Africa ran like us ...

    Read Halder's diary. He notes in his reports something like this "fighting with the French and Poles, we could afford to deviate from the regulations, with the Russians such numbers do not work." In general, his assessment of our troops is higher, and precisely in terms of tactics of military operations
    Quote: DrEng527
    Are you seriously? in a year the IVS "achieved" a lot - a united Europe against us - from Spain / France to Finland / Romania It's genius - to unite and rally all your enemies into one.

    I'm serious. Since the beginning of the 30s, the IVS was hammering towards the British and French, offering them a new Entente, but was sent far and clearly (Churchill described this very well). He was ready to help Czechoslovakia and Poland - but he was sent far and clearly. It was not Stalin who united Europe under Hitler - it was Europe that sent the USSR to hell.
    In fact, Stalin had ONE chance to play better than it happened in reality - he could declare war on Germany and attack while the Wehrmacht was destroying France. Then there would be some chances for a better course of the Second World War. But such a decision could not be made with the source codes that the IVS had. He could not know that France would fall in a month, and he could not know that Germany would attack him in 1941.
    Quote: DrEng527
    He accurately understood the interests of England and did not rally, but broke the alliances of his enemies

    Um ... Are you serious? Whom did he rally with Operation Catapult? :)))) Who failed to create a front in the Balkans? What exactly did Churchill take to destroy the Berlin-Tokyo-Rome axis?
    Quote: DrEng527
    1) It is necessary to check the capabilities of the industry and the fuel balance of Germany, the possibility of training the crews ... but this is not serious - the IVS fundamentally did not understand these issues ...
    2) Check your capabilities in the tank industry and fuel
    3) Start the formation of VET reserves (by the way it was done)
    4) To study other possibilities of creating a PTO - minefields, etc.
    5) Strengthen the power supply in this direction

    First of all, it was necessary to create our own tank fists for conducting mobile warfare, which is exactly what he did. And the anti-tank equipment and obstacles are from the evil one, let us recall the Maginot line and the Kursk Bulge. They knew exactly the place where the Germans would advance, pulled down the IPTAP, the masses of engineering barriers, already experienced fighters ... And - all the same, the introduction of tank armies into battle to stop the enemy that had broken through.
    Quote: DrEng527
    it's not a matter of fortune-telling ... the country must be ready to hit in the summer ...

    What a miracle? Let's remember what the Red Army was like in 1939 I am not referring to myself as a source, don't get it wrong, it's just that my point of view (with documents) is expounded here: the article "The Red Army in 1939 is" invincible and legendary "? Or what is her real state at this time? " I'm afraid the moderator will ban the link to a third-party resource, but Google finds the article twice.
    Finally, if we recall mobilization plans, we will understand that the Red Army, in principle, did not have time to concentrate on the border faster than Germany, provided that mobilization was announced at the same time - the distances and transport networks were not the same. And how could you buy time for deployment, when Germany ALREADY mobilized the army (war with France), and we did not have grounds for general mobilization?
    In general, for objective reasons due to the timing of the deployment, we lost miserably in 1941. It was possible to fix this ... in the 41st - no way
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 14 September 2020 12: 36 New
    0
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Of course, diesel-electric submarines will not replace nuclear-powered submarines, but taking into account that 1 nuclear-powered submarine costs as much as 4 diesel-electric submarines, the latter are quite a decent means of solving problems suitable for them (especially with VNEU)

    there is a good confirmation of this - the actions of our diesel-electric submarines in the Mediterranean:
    "The Times reports - the British submarine Astute was going to launch cruise missiles at targets in Syria - from the eastern Mediterranean. But Russian sailors interfered. According to British journalists, two Russian submarines moved towards the British submarine and forced it to maneuver.

    The pride of the British Navy, the modern Astute class submarine is capable of carrying dozens of Tomahawk missiles.

    "Designed for combat operations and patrolling land, strikes against targets, including those located on the coast. Along with the strategic submarine missile carriers Vanguard, Astute form the basis of the striking power of the British fleet," said Igor Korotchenko, editor-in-chief of the National Defense magazine

    The ship was supposed to participate in a massive attack on Syria. But he was prevented by Russian submariners, who were supported by ships and aircraft. This is reported by The Times, citing sources in the British Ministry of Defense.

    A British Navy submarine armed with cruise missiles was pursued by at least one, possibly two, Russian submarines. Western experts call them "black holes" because of their quiet speed.

    From the tenacious embrace of the "black holes", according to media reports, the unfortunate British could not escape for several days. They were presumably pursued by Russian submarines of the "Halibut" and "Varshavyanka" project.
    https://www.vesti.ru/article/1439457
    1. Avior
      Avior 14 September 2020 13: 02 New
      +6
      yeah. in this story, it was somehow omitted that the full stroke of Astiut is 30 knots, and he can keep it for a long time, and the full stroke of Varshavyanka is 20 knots, and he can keep it under water for a few hours.
    2. DrEng527
      DrEng527 14 September 2020 13: 04 New
      0
      Quote: Avior
      somehow omitted in this story

      Quote: DrEng527
      The Times reports

      claims to the Times ... hi
    3. Avior
      Avior 14 September 2020 13: 05 New
      +1
      I don't think that all the nonsense from the press should be taken to VO smile
    4. DrEng527
      DrEng527 14 September 2020 13: 08 New
      +1
      Quote: Avior
      I do not think

      it's a pity .... hi
      Quote: Avior
      all the nonsense from the press

      1) This is "nonsense" only for you, but in general this is a description of the tactics of countering diesel-electric submarines to attacking nuclear submarines - which was the discussion - but you don't like it - so in the mirror ... hi
      2) Times and Vesti serious publications
    5. Avior
      Avior 14 September 2020 13: 41 New
      +1
      And where did you see the description of the tactics?
      in the "serious newspaper Vesti"?
      you don't have a word about it ...
    6. DrEng527
      DrEng527 14 September 2020 13: 46 New
      -1
      Quote: Avior
      And where did you see the description of the tactics?

      Quote: DrEng527
      two Russian submarines advanced and forced her to maneuver.

      Is your understanding of the text so bad? Or do you need a tracing paper for maneuvering? wink
      Quote: Avior
      "serious newspaper Vesti"?

      Quote: DrEng527
      The Times reports

      I recommend going to an ophthalmologist - you have a strange perception of the text ... hi
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 13: 53 New
    +2
    Quote: Avior
    I don't think that all the nonsense from the press should be taken to VO

    What gives you reason to consider this article stupid? The article contains several statements, including that Astyut was escorted by our diesel-electric submarines and this prevented the completion of the combat mission. Escort time is not specified. What is the problem?
  • Avior
    Avior 14 September 2020 14: 22 New
    +5
    From the tenacious embrace of the "black holes", according to media reports, the unfortunate British could not escape for several days. They were presumably pursued by Russian submarines of the "Halibut" and "Varshavyanka" project.
    smile
    I can believe that those who found themselves in the diesel-electric submarine area could prevent the launch from this particular area at a specific time. And even then with a stretch, rather theoretically. Well, the British would have let their Tomahawks across Syria. and what - would the Russian submarines immediately rush to attack them?
    And the fact that diesel nuclear power plants were driven for several days is sheer fantasy.
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 15 September 2020 09: 44 New
    0
    Quote: Avior
    could prevent the launch from this particular area at a specific time.

    but it happens differently? bully
  • Avior
    Avior 15 September 2020 16: 35 New
    0
    Have you forgotten what you wrote?
    ... From the tenacious embrace of the "black holes", according to media reports, the unfortunate British could not escape for several days.

    Did you give advice to the ophthalmologist there?
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 15 September 2020 17: 47 New
    +1
    complexes seem to have flooded ... bully good luck
  • Avior
    Avior 15 September 2020 18: 06 New
    0
    My condolences to you. Good luck.
    hi
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 14 September 2020 12: 28 New
    +3
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    remember the size of the PLO forces that the allies had to create to crush the Germans

    more than 500t, with the number of submariners 40t ... hi
  • Catfish
    Catfish 14 September 2020 08: 24 New
    +6
    Good morning Andrey. hi
    If I am not mistaken, then the boat of the VII series "grew" from the last project of the end of the First World War, i.e. was almost the same. Correct if not right.
    But, nevertheless, it seems to me that it is simply unrealistic for a diesel engine to compete with a nuclear submarine, like a schoolboy with an adult boxer, only by accident and with incredible luck to stick a feather in the side.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 09: 08 New
      +5
      Greetings, Constantine!
      Quote: Sea Cat
      If I am not mistaken, then the boat of the VII series "grew" from the last project of the end of the First World War, i.e. was almost the same. Correct if not right.

      With pleasure. EMNIP, while designing the seven of its first iteration (VII-A), the Germans took as a basis "Vetekhitnen" - a project of an underwater mine layer for the Finnish Navy in the 20s. But VIIA was not a copy of the "finca" - the Germans were using their own numerous post-war developments with might and main. But "Vetekhinen" was indeed designed on the basis of one of the most effective German submarines of the WWII era - UBIII. At the same time, the most effective VIIC still had significant differences from the A and B variants of the "seven".
      Thus, the question of copying, obviously, cannot go - this is a completely different ship.
      Quote: Sea Cat
      But, nevertheless, it seems to me that it is simply unrealistic for a diesel engine to compete with a nuclear submarine, like a schoolboy with an adult boxer

      Not at all. The detection distance of the enemy near diesel-electric submarines is higher than nuclear submarines of the same technological level. That is, if the nuclear submarine passes the SSK patrol area, then it may well be destroyed.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 14 September 2020 09: 23 New
        +3
        Thank you, Andrew.
        That is, if the nuclear submarine passes the SSK patrol area, then it may well be destroyed.

        Well, I'm talking - from around the corner with a knife. winked
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 14 September 2020 09: 10 New
    +3
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Roman, I strongly recommend to study the history of the Second World War, in which German type VII boats, having up to 7 underwater nodes (but actually going much quieter, since at full speed the power supply is consumed ahovo) destroyed enemy cruisers and destroyers that had the maximum speed is 4-5 times more :))))

    To do this, you must either know the exact time and place of the ship's appearance, or hope for luck.
    What is an error of only nine miles for a diesel-electric submarine was well described by Inright:
    We saw him at 5.55 in the distance, through the morning haze. Oh, it was a magnificent sight! One of the handsome, modern heavy aircraft carriers - "Sekaku" or "Zuikaku", appeared. In our "Identification Handbook of Japanese Ships" the tonnage of each was determined at 30 tons. Both of them were involved in the attack on Pearl Harbor, anyone deserved to be a great trophy. Unfortunately, the aircraft carrier passed nine miles from us, exactly in the very place that my chief officer and navigator had calculated, taking into account the Japanese navigator's ignorance of the Kuroshio current decrease.
    The aircraft carrier was exactly in the place where, as my intuition prompted me, studying at Annapolis and ten years of experience, it should be.
    We had no chance to attack him. We were on his beam. A distance of 9 miles could just as well be 90 and 900 miles. The aircraft carrier left at a speed of 22 knots. In the surface position, our boat had the highest speed of 19 knots. Dawn quickly, and we could soon be discovered.
    1. Avior
      Avior 14 September 2020 09: 29 New
      +4
      The successes of the German submariners in the first half of the war were largely based on the fact that the boats on the surface could catch up with slow-moving convoys, both the speed and the limited observation capabilities of the enemy allowed.
      In the "Steel Coffins" there are descriptions of the situation when the Germans attacked the convoy several times from the surface.
      When radars appeared en masse at the escort and PLO aviation, the Germans began to have big problems, and snorkels and new torpedoes did not help.
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 09: 30 New
      0
      Quote: Alexey RA
      To do this, you must either know the exact time and place of the ship's appearance, or hope for luck.

      Well, it will not be possible to know for sure, this is true, but the expected area of ​​appearance is quite possible to outline.
      Quote: Alexey RA
      What is an error of only nine miles for a diesel-electric submarine was well described by Inright:

      Today, given the range of weapons, this is not a problem. Actually, at a distance at which a diesel-electric submarine can detect a nuclear submarine, it can attack (well ... theoretically, and not taking into account our shoals with torpedo weapons)
    3. DrEng527
      DrEng527 14 September 2020 12: 39 New
      +2
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      The detection distance of the enemy near diesel-electric submarines is higher than nuclear submarines of the same technological level.

      unfortunately, not everything is so simple - the power of the nuclear submarine is higher, so the GAS is more powerful!
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 14 September 2020 14: 04 New
        +2
        Quote: DrEng527
        unfortunately, not everything is so simple - the power of the nuclear submarine is higher, so the GAS is more powerful!

        You can also recall the difference in the size of the hulls of the nuclear submarine and diesel-electric submarines - and, accordingly, the difference in the sizes of the GAK antennas placed in it, on it and behind it. smile
      2. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 15 September 2020 11: 21 New
        +1
        Submarines use the SAC in echo mode, except that during the attack, they directly
  • Igor Semenov
    Igor Semenov 14 September 2020 09: 44 New
    +4
    This is in vain, dear Andrei Nikolaevich, you give Roman advice in the comments. He doesn't read them. And in a real conversation, he will not listen to you, not the case. And you yourself have repeatedly written about the problems of the fleet. They, these problems, really exist and how to solve them with the new-old commanders is completely unclear.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 14 September 2020 09: 55 New
      +4
      Quote: Igor Semenov
      This is in vain, dear Andrei Nikolaevich, you give Roman advice in the comments. He doesn't read them

      But other readers read :)))
      Quote: Igor Semenov
      And in a real conversation, he will not listen to you, not the case

      Who knows? We never spoke
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 14 September 2020 08: 27 New
      +3
      But see all the vendors on duty all night? wink Night shift at the troll house? bully
      1. Varyag71
        Varyag71 14 September 2020 09: 57 New
        +3
        It is she who, in parallel with voting, earn money. In Voronezh, we are everywhere offering 500 rubles for voting for United Russia. And if you still show a photo with a checkmark at the desired candidate, then another 500 rubles.
  • GREG68
    GREG68 14 September 2020 07: 56 New
    +5
    Yes, it was smooth on paper, but they forgot about the ravines
  • bandabas
    bandabas 14 September 2020 09: 09 New
    +6
    “The jam is excellent,” the Queen insisted.
    - Thank you, but today I really don't want to!
    “You wouldn't get it today, even if you really wanted to,” replied the Queen. - My rule is firm: jam for tomorrow! And only for tomorrow!
  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 14 September 2020 09: 20 New
    +6
    I even read such nonsense that the Varshavyanka was planned to be used in hypothetical duels against the American Los Angeles class nuclear submarines. Precisely as less noisy.
    The opinion is, of course, flattering. I don’t understand how the Varshavyanka, whose speed under water did not exceed 20 knots, could catch the Los Angeles, whose speed was 10 knots higher. Of course, diesel boats, which are ten times cheaper in cost and capable of withstanding nuclear-powered ships, seem to be yes. But not serious from the first to the last letter.

    The author read it and did not understand, it can be seen already traditionally, why it was supposed to do just that. As I recall, it was about covering diesel-electric submarines for the deployment of SSBNs and submarines in "Bastions". It was assumed, in fact, that Varshavyanka would act from an ambush. The solution is quite adequate by the way. Nobody would send her into the ocean to catch the Elk.
  • kig
    kig 14 September 2020 09: 40 New
    +2
    But we have 40 icebreakers, and there will be even more. And some of them are with Calibers.
    1. agond
      agond 14 September 2020 10: 04 New
      0
      If in Varshavyanka you replace her native batteries with lithium ones, then there will be another boat, and if you still manage to add batteries from the outside of a solid hull
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 14 September 2020 13: 27 New
        +3
        You would have attached a motor from Carlson to it, you are our unfinished Kulibin! laughing
      2. Ervin
        Ervin 15 September 2020 13: 03 New
        -3
        They have already done so. On "Losharik". As a result, "Losharik" - lost.
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 14 September 2020 10: 26 New
    +1
    in the Baltic Sea, there is no need for Pl Rossi, even one, rather psychologically, only to frighten the Swedes and cause general hysteria. The strait is too narrow, it will be blocked and, in general, the BALT The fleet is senseless due to the geography of the borders ... but the Pacific Fleet is extremely important, and I would especially like to calculate the required number of nuclear submarines, in Peropavlovsk, to ensure the exit of nuclear submarines and ICBMs. The problem posed by the respected Roman Skomorokhov is deeper than submarines, the problem of human stupidity, cowardice and the people who betrayed their country and surrendered to Hollywood fairy tales to the Americans, We are now a half-colony and scanty remnants of the tribute that we pay to the Americans, spend on weak attempts to revive the army and navy, we buy senseless UDC and abandoned the most important part of the Navy in the form of submarines, in the form of coastal aviation, recklessly did not give a damn about the mine danger ... it all starts with the fact that the people betrayed their country and handed over the reins of government to Yeltsin, and now they can do nothing.
  • Operator
    Operator 14 September 2020 10: 57 New
    -10
    Especially the desire of the author to absolutely place in the soup with dumplings (in the Baltic, in the Black and Sea of ​​Japan) +100500 Russian submarines - like let them choke on enemy coastal aviation, was especially smiling.

    The presence of the RF PGRK with nuclear MLRS / OTR / RSD: "No, I don't know" (C) laughing

    PS If moronic Moremans from Germany, Turkey, Japan ets build up their unparalleled PLs in soup with dumplings, then this is their mental problem.
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 14 September 2020 11: 03 New
    0
    Quote: Aleksandr1971
    And what do you, the author, propose to do to eliminate the crisis in the construction and operation of the submarine fleet? What should be the state concept in this area? We are waiting for an answer in the second part.
    excuse me, I got in with my opinion, although Roman's opinion is also interesting, my point is that it is necessary to change the management personnel, from managers to specialists, then submarines will appear and the UDC will not be laid ... the battery in the transition to generative electrics leads to an increase in their capacity, you can turn from a diesel engine in favor of only a battery, taking into account the fact that the submarine is coastal and will be charged at the base, a quiet and small boat will turn out. OR abandon electric propulsion, and have a high-pressure gas tank with air on board, periodically refuel the air upon ascent, in both cases the boat will turn out smaller and easier ... how quiet a modern ICE will turn out under water? I like the first option more
  • Kolka Semenov
    Kolka Semenov 14 September 2020 11: 30 New
    -4
    For the first time I do not agree with Skomorokhov. The article is superficial and in many ways stupid. The estimates seem to be correct, but with foulbrood.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 14 September 2020 11: 48 New
      +2
      In Varshavyanka, in my opinion, it is necessary to modernize the SAC, with the addition of the GPBA, solve the problems with the TU torpedoes (Well, this is a fundamental problem of the Navy that needs to be solved), and the inclusion of the package's anti-torpedo weapons in the complex. Well, replacing the battery with Li-ion. And it will be quite adequate.
      1. Kolka Semenov
        Kolka Semenov 14 September 2020 15: 30 New
        +1
        Let's point out what I didn't like in the article.
        Firstly, this is the belittling of the purchases of Varshavyanka by foreign states - the 636th is in service with not only Algeria. Secondly, it is better to modernize the existing 636s, like the T-72B3, than to try to make an exclusively new, but deeply crude project at any cost. Skomorokhov misses this moment, which leaves an unpleasant aftertaste ...
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 14 September 2020 15: 34 New
          +3
          Quote: Semenov Kolka
          Secondly, it is better to modernize the existing 636s, like the T-72B3, than to try to make an exclusively new, but deeply crude project at any cost.

          Quite right. And Vietnam, China and Algeria also bought the 636 project. Above, I indicated what, in my opinion, needs to be done ...

          Skomorokhov misses this moment,

          I'm used to this already. Incredible ease of thinking ...
          1. Kolka Semenov
            Kolka Semenov 14 September 2020 16: 19 New
            -3
            "I'm already used to this. The ease of thinking is incredible ..."

            It turns out that the Navy is trying to put new submarines into operation as soon as possible, without bothering with the overdue and over-matured modernization of the existing submarine, for example, with remote-controlled torpedoes. There are none! All the money went to Lada!
            Or finally put on the T-72B3 KAZ! Not! The grandmas have gone to the Armatu!
            It turns out that Skomorokhov seems to be trying to point out the deplorable situation in the army, but in fact he simply sings along with the deeply vicious practice of the Ministry of Defense, which every day announces some new grandiose drank project, but cannot provide fighters with normal hangars ...
            1. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 14 September 2020 17: 21 New
              +1
              Quote: Semenov Kolka
              but in fact, he simply sings along with the deeply vicious practice of the Ministry of Defense, which every day announces some new grandiose drank project, but to provide normal fighters


              Quite right. I recently calculated the price of a light hangar that the Su-27 will fit into. It came out in the region of 2 million rubles. Against the background of the fighter's price of 1.5 billion, that's not money. Moreover, they can be put on old parking lots covered with ramparts. Since we made a mistake in the 60s with the size of capital hangars.
              But I don't see any movement from the word at all. So the technicians of the aircraft standing in Kamchatka are serving openly under the downpour and in the blizzard and in the cold ...............
  • Undecim
    Undecim 14 September 2020 11: 37 New
    +7
    Quote: The same Lech
    Then the eternal Russian question arises ... What to do? ... to

    Can it try, following the example of some neighboring countries, to build a country with a strong economy and a decent standard of living on the basis of available resources?
    But this is obviously "not our method".
  • pleschakovai
    pleschakovai 14 September 2020 12: 07 New
    -2
    The novel, with its little article, raised so many problems and exposed the problems of our defense industry, scary and terrible comments !!! He praised the "partners" of our government, good heavens, but why are the state TV channels all lying? Is it possible that no one notices that they are busy with continuous TRAP and BOLT, as the great chatterbox and talker Gorbachev once did !!! So what is it that there is trouble in all spheres of defense industry production? Are they all lying and making government orders out of the blue? Except for trade, show-life, show of production and propaganda of goods of cheap advertising and superficial multi-part films about anything, nothing is visible sensible, path and worthy !!! Everything is as it was in the last century, in the 30-40s: .... AND OUR TANKS FAST ??? I understand that modern nuclear submarines with ICBMs in the triad will ensure the fulfillment of the combat mission !!!
    According to the materials presented to the public, the Russian Navy has 70 submarines. Of these: 14 nuclear-powered ballistic missiles: 10 at the Northern Fleet (SF) and 4 at the Pacific Fleet (Pacific Fleet); 9 nuclear submarines with cruise missiles: 4 at the Northern Fleet and 5 at the Pacific Fleet; 19 multipurpose nuclear-powered ships: 14 at the Northern Fleet and 5 at the Pacific Fleet; 8 special-purpose nuclear submarines - all at the Northern Fleet; 1 diesel submarine for special purposes - at the Northern Fleet. 19 diesel submarines: 2 from the Baltic Fleet (BF), 2 from the Black Sea (Black Sea Fleet), 7 from the Northern Fleet, 8 from the Pacific Fleet. - Read more on FB.ru: https://fb.ru/article/143297/skolko-u-rossii-podvodnyih-lodok-sovremennyie-podvodnyie-lodki-rossii-podvodnyie-lodki-vmf-rossii
  • Diviz
    Diviz 14 September 2020 12: 15 New
    -3
    Smart voting, artificial intelligence is in vogue right now. The country is huge and the people are not enough. 800 pcs mc21 to assemble by hand. How many missiles do you need to assemble? What we are building quickly is gas processing plants, and then together with foreigners. So it's one thing to want to organize and create equipment is another thing.
    How long will it take 10 -20 years.
    The Soviet Union existed for 75 years and we are only 27 years old. So we have everything ahead.
    We need new sites for the assembly of equipment, specialists, people, computer technology.
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 14 September 2020 12: 22 New
    +1
    "Norway: 6 PL. The level of Sweden." if not a secret, did the author look at the map? Is Norway on the Baltic Sea? wink
    And so yes - the situation with submarines in the Russian Federation is not very good, but the author's message that it is necessary to build a fleet equal to the sum of the fleets of its neighbors is somewhat strange and not affordable for the Russian Federation, even England in its best times adhered only to a double standard request
  • Zementbomber
    Zementbomber 14 September 2020 12: 23 New
    +1
    Well, again, "technical cretinism" (Moderators: it not swear word, that's the official scientific term). The problem of the Russian Navy's fleet is completely not in the problems of the quantity and performance characteristics of its material part (or rather, these problems are strongly not the main ones, and who doesn't have them? - you read what the Americans write about their fleet!).
    This is what the Russian NSNF are worth, if from the entire ARPKSN fleet there are usually one or two at sea? (And it happens that not a single one at all!) In such conditions, the strategic submarine fleet is a bunch of very expensive scrap metal - nothing more. The same is with the rest of the branches of the fleet.
    "preparation will decide the outcome of the battle!" (C)
    Achieved by due attention and financial and MT-support of combat training and combat service.
    In 1904 - the Russian Empire had either a third or even a second (lazy search) armored fleet in Mir. By the number of pennants. The result is known, Tsushima. It's time to learn to draw conclusions at last. And not about the lag in VNEU is bitter to cry ... negative
  • Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 14 September 2020 13: 01 New
    -3
    It seems that for the first time Roma decided to check what was there with the submarine) And yes, we build Varshavyanka for 2-3 years, and yes, USC are right when they say that Lada cannot be ordered yet - until the project is completed, until the equipment for the dead is ready to do orders for hulls are stupid, this will just be sabotage ... and the Varshavyanka boats will take 1-2 boats a year
  • Paphnutius the Unforgettable
    Paphnutius the Unforgettable 14 September 2020 13: 35 New
    -2
    It’s bad, of course, when people start writing about what they don’t understand at all. In this case, in the tactics of using diesel submarines. As a result, we get the following pearls: "" Quietly from an ambush "in the ocean - it is badly presented. All other actions associated with giving a course - and the American boat knits ours in a knot." No, if of course we imagine that our admirals are like this "writer" then of course. This option is not excluded. Also, for sure, you can imagine another option: "quietly from an ambush to watch for" Los Angeles "in the Baltic Sea." Is it funny? And that, and such an article can be written. Paper will endure everything.
  • Lyudmila Prikhodko
    Lyudmila Prikhodko 14 September 2020 14: 11 New
    +1
    In a country of total lies, in a country that has long lost its financial and economic independence, talking about any projects is simply stupid. The state of the Russian army and navy is deeply troubling.
  • Curt
    Curt 14 September 2020 14: 23 New
    +1
    In Russia, the fleet has always been given reduced attention - the fleet got about 20% of the money allocated for defense. Historically. because we will not have a fleet - the Russian Federation will stand still and there will be no land Army - here there will be no Russian Federation either. Of course it's a shame that everything is not very good with us in political and economic life - we have never spoiled the fleet and never will. The only thing that is required is to spend those crumbs that are allocated to the fleet - with the mind. I hope that those people in the leadership of the fleet understand this. I consider the article too alarmist, No duels can now be discussed between the boats. The decision to build Varshavyanka is not from a good life, but it is correct. There is simply nothing else and is not expected. We have no money to build a fleet similar to the United States and never will. We have been and will be landlords.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 14 September 2020 15: 41 New
      +1
      The only thing that is required is to spend those crumbs that are allocated to the fleet - with the mind.

      And this is just not visible. Some kind of clownery. Although in fairness - there are a lot of correct decisions, but !!!.
      Quote: Curt
      The decision to build Varshavyanka is not from a good life, but it is correct.

      I agree. We will update the Pacific Fleet and build three boats for the Baltic, and preferably 6 more for the North. Then you can think about Ladas
  • shtraib
    shtraib 14 September 2020 14: 24 New
    0
    And what is the problem with EDMS-1, why can't they bring it?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • evgeniy.plotnikov.2019mail.ru
    evgeniy.plotnikov.2019mail.ru 14 September 2020 14: 50 New
    +2
    Excellent article.
    But not only in the Navy .. This is the way things stand in this unviable state, RK, Capitalist Russia, which has been driving in Russia for 30 years. Strictly speaking, this is not even a state; there is no full-fledged state page. There are no real officials, the concept itself is absent. “Officials, who deliberately, who foolishly call some kind of“ aunts ”and“ uncles ”in civilian and military suits. To whom did they take the oath? What do they have to do with the Army, Navy or Air Force .. At what training camps and when do they come? What standards can they pass? When was the last time they fired a combat weapon? ...Parody. Everywhere is a parody.
    ... The main sign of the inadequacy of even an individual or a state is the inability to answer elementary questions. “Why has the Russian state been ruled by time for decades, and not by a real Russian state?” “Why, in 30 years, did they not bother to clearly divide the sectors of the economy - into private and state? ,, ,, Why does the state lack a viable, present financial system? ,, ,, Where are the gold 5 and 10 ruble coins and silver rubles? ,, ,, Why is it ,, the state ,, joyfully pays 100 rubles for the pound sterling? ,, ,, Why it is possible to take out significant financial resources with impunity (law enforcement e t o called ,, robbery ,,) from the territory of Russia? ,, Etc. etc. A huge number of questions to which there are NO answers.
    How is this "state" going to defend Russia? And is he going at all?
    Isn't it time for PEOPLE, endowed with any kind of power, to ask themselves and the "internal" enemies of Russia direct and clear questions?
    ... Where are the radio-controlled tanks? Where are the tank trawls? Where are the trailers for transporting tanks and trawls? Where are the command vehicles? Where are the well-armored ammunition delivery vehicles? Where are the well-armored sanitary tracked armored personnel carriers? Where are the serial heavy armored personnel carriers with aft exit for the landing? Where are the personnel transporters in the towed artillery? ...
    Where are the planes and helicopters for initial flight training? Where is the air ambulance? Where is the UAV for the platoon, company, battalion?
    ... Where are the real officers, whose orders will be carried out strictly in the most difficult conditions of high-intensity battles, and the Armed Forces of the Republic of Kazakhstan will not lose control of their power as they did her Red Army in the summer of 1941? There is currently NO such school! As there is no school for training sergeants. For decades, they can not, “get”. They don't know, they don't know how, they don't want to.
    This is combat readiness ?! Is it readiness for force majeure?
    ... I don't remember the author. A fiction book about the Russian Navy at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. ,, Overhaul ,, called.
    It is such repairs that are needed now not only by the Navy
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 15 September 2020 09: 35 New
      +1
      Quote: evgeniy.plotnikov.2019mail.ru
      I don't remember the author. A fiction book about the Russian Navy at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. ,, Overhaul ,, called.

      Leonid Sobolev
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Connor MacLeod
    Connor MacLeod 14 September 2020 15: 36 New
    -1
    Set up some bullshit! negative Now we sit smoking bamboo! fool
  • Germanium
    Germanium 14 September 2020 16: 25 New
    0
    Could it be that our strategists rely on the total destruction of the enemy, be it Japan or the United States with a massive nuclear attack by ICBMs? Type can be saved on conventional weapons. Single samples are created so as not to lose qualifications and that's enough ...
  • megavolt823
    megavolt823 14 September 2020 16: 33 New
    +6
    The author's fears are understandable. The construction of a submarine cruiser is comparable in complexity to space products. And before you curl your fingers, there are a few things to consider. Destruction of factories on the territory of the Russian Federation and those that remained in the republics. And this is technology and cooperation. Which are no more. Much has been said about the lag in various industries in the 80s and 90s. And of course there was a lot. But today the Russian Federation does not produce almost anything. The factories are still closed and there is no work there. Modern weapons are a combination of scientific thought and industrial capability. But the last one is a big problem.
  • Prisoner
    Prisoner 14 September 2020 16: 43 New
    0
    repeat And again I guessed the author by the title of the article.
  • Invergordon Dauljavichus
    Invergordon Dauljavichus 14 September 2020 17: 40 New
    -4
    We cannot afford to chase a potential adversary (very numerous and rich, by the way) quantitatively. Personally, I do not want such military and political greatness as in the USSR, when the army was one of the two strongest in the world, and people, especially in the village, were born and died in kirzach and quilted jackets. Yes, and older people remember sausage trains well - this is when all of central Russia traveled to Moscow on trains and commuter trains for NORMAL BOILED SAUSAGE (!)
    There are nuclear forces for global hooligans, there are quite compact ground forces for local conflicts and defense of their territory, if anything, and the rest must be acquired strictly based on the capabilities of the economy.
    Putin drew the right conclusions from the poor Soviet hegemony and, as far as can be seen from open sources, does not go beyond 5% of GDP in defense.
    1. agond
      agond 14 September 2020 18: 12 New
      -2
      Quote: BoA KAA
      You would have attached a motor from Carlson to it, you are our unfinished Kulibin!

      It doesn't matter who, the unfinished kulibin or the finished kudablin, but the important thing is that in Varshavyanka there is a large volume of ballast of 1600 tons, that is, 40%, why not fill part of this volume with lithium-ion batteries. placing them strong pipes with zero buoyancy and placing them between the hulls.?
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 14 September 2020 18: 33 New
    +2
    It is difficult for the shipbuilding of the Russian Federation to accelerate to the pace of the USSR crying
    Then, in addition to dozens of nuclear submarines, hundreds (!) Diesel-electric submarines were built in parallel, quite advanced of that time. There is no breakthrough in the new submarine engine, alas!
  • mag nit
    mag nit 14 September 2020 18: 40 New
    +4
    All shortcomings and failures, will overlap with the tales of grandfather Pu.
    1. agond
      agond 14 September 2020 21: 27 New
      0
      Quote: agond
      Varshavyanka has a large ballast volume of 1600 tons, that is, 40%, why a part of this volume.?

      However, for the statement of the fact that Varshavyanka has a large interbody volume and for the proposal to at least somehow use it, they instructed cons. !!!
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Sailor
    Sailor 14 September 2020 21: 36 New
    +1
    I completely agree with the author! From the Navy, we have the name and ambitions of the admirals, those who really go to sea understand that we are in deep ass, and while we have yachts in priority, not warships, the 2nd Tsushima awaits us.
  • K298rtm
    K298rtm 14 September 2020 22: 30 New
    0
    1. The esteemed author quite rightly drew the attention of the concerned public to the well-known fact of the quantitative superiority of non-nuclear submarines of foreign states.
    2. As for the quality superiority, apart from the general reasoning that the new foreign submarines are better than our 636 projects, there is no texture (where are the comparative data on the reduced noise level, mutual gains, number of BZs, etc. ???) ...
    3. It is clear that we have practically no allies; we have partners (not very reliable) and opponents. We will not be able to catch up and overtake everyone (and, in my opinion, no one sets such a task anymore).
    4. Maybe N. Khrushchev was right when he made a bet on missile weapons (to the detriment of another)?
  • DeKo
    DeKo 14 September 2020 22: 42 New
    -2
    After reading another article from the Donbass militia hero, who, according to his assurances, in the Peacemaker's database, was convinced how well Roman Skomorokhov is able to read the press of Ukraine, Poland, Georgia. And then retell this nonsense, passing off as his brilliant thoughts. Please also note how Roman's rhetoric towards Ukraine is changing. A year ago, he argued that it was correct to speak in Ukraine. And now he says, In Ukraine. What is it ? Stupidity or SBU money?
  • kig
    kig 15 September 2020 02: 08 New
    +1
    The pictures are beautiful, the reasoning is smart ... and it seems to be correct. Only now I strongly doubt that the people who decide how many boats we need and what they should be, make decisions based on this reasoning.
  • reader65
    reader65 15 September 2020 04: 00 New
    0
    Quote: NEOZ
    why aren't you a pilot?

    Are you a pilot?
  • Charik
    Charik 15 September 2020 07: 27 New
    +2
    they drowned (khekhe) please understand
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 15 September 2020 09: 08 New
    -2
    Roman knows everything. Even what the Minister of Defense does not know.
  • SiberianGun
    SiberianGun 15 September 2020 09: 47 New
    +3
    One expert friend of mine who has been following the situation, I think for many years, explained very simply why we have such a deplorable and catastrophic situation with defense. After the collapse of the USSR, a large industrial complex was very quickly destroyed and plundered. Many enterprises produced parts that could be used both in the civilian industry and in the military. Thanks to these enterprises, military equipment could be assembled on a large scale. It is clear that if now these enterprises do not exist, then they can only produce piece goods, the price of which turns out to be incommensurably higher. So even a piece can no longer produce, I'm talking about "Lada". And they can't even bring it to a working condition.
    And now let us recall the victorious reports about "Russian weapons". The stupid human mass happily fed on this whole show. Show-off has long been part of our culture. Sooner or later, this had to affect, moreover, to affect globally. And it affected.
    Compare two societies: a society where honesty in a person was valued at least at the ideological level, a working person was respected. And look at modern society with its dumb marketing and herd advertising. The herd is easier to manage, but everyone understands or feels that Russia has become a country of show-offs. Therefore, on our roads majors reign on supercars. These majors are not worth a penny - if they are sent to hot spots, their essence will very easily manifest there. A man of labor has not been respected in our country for a long time, managers, various managers of a heap of various state corporations and other state cuts are respected. With the advent of the digital age, the huge Russian bureaucracy continues to grow and develop successfully. And it should have been the other way around!
    The so-called elite is quietly fattening, the people cannot even imagine how these our "masters of life" live. Back in the 90s they stole ... But we cannot bring to mind the long-term long-term construction under the name "Lada" and the long-suffering "Armata". Ponty is our everything! We fed the grateful people the information that the weapon is our very best.
    So continue to rejoice and boast about your show-off.
  • Alex968m
    Alex968m 15 September 2020 13: 32 New
    +1
    And the caliber with its subsonic speed is old, to put it mildly.
  • misti1973
    misti1973 15 September 2020 14: 07 New
    +1
    The most interesting thing is that we have nothing to share with the United States! What do they want from us? I will say: invest money here in order to raise the level of development and balance the world economy! And we cannot compete with them because of the total chaos, the lack of motivation for the ice to work: there are few normal engineers, and young people generally do not want to work for an unprincipled incompetent state.
    and in the defense industry, wage-related matters are also not good everywhere.
  • strelokmira
    strelokmira 15 September 2020 14: 30 New
    0
    Yes, we only seem to have no problems with the militia. lol
    And on the subject, now even more or less the further from the collapse of the USSR, the less combat-ready equipment will remain, they are replacing it a little more than not.

    ps dispute in the comments about how the Warsaw woman in one snout AUG will sink amused laughing
    pss by the way Roman where you can still read your articles, otherwise I feel they will soon block you on this portal of "great" Russia
  • Recoil
    Recoil 15 September 2020 16: 55 New
    0
    Why are you still sitting here? They've already stolen everything. We disperse.
  • Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 15 September 2020 20: 10 New
    +1
    And why did the SU-57 not please the author? The fact that we did not follow the American path is good. The next blunder: nuclear powered ships run at a speed of 3-5 knots. At thirty knots, they are heard far away and well. And just as easily they will be destroyed. Among other things, the author stubbornly pushes us to the idea that there will be a war in 1941. No, it will not. There will be a retaliatory strike with nuclear weapons against the United States, Japan and other Koreas, and everyone will die ...
    1. reader65
      reader65 15 September 2020 21: 08 New
      0
      And we, as martyrs, are in PARADISE.
  • ifdru74
    ifdru74 16 September 2020 00: 32 New
    +3
    It hurts me to say this, but in our country there is a crisis in all branches of arms. Somehow, imperceptibly, the impact of the USSR ended, and all the "new" weapons remained well-tested old. The subject of VNEA has been tormented by ours since the late 1950s and the Stirling engine, which seems to be already working, unlike the unfinished project of the 1950s, was supposed to bring our submarines to the right place anyway, did not help. Considering the depletion of available fossil fuel reserves, it is a look into the past to develop "breakthrough" power plants using fossil fuels, instead of organizing a breakthrough of installations based on other physical and chemical principles. The internal combustion engine has long run into physics and chemistry and there is nothing to catch. Evolutionarily improving is necessary, but revolutionary is going to a dead end ... The surface ships, thanks to the non-brothers, were left without engines. Ours are working and, perhaps, will. But not yet. We have big problems with the integration of diverse weapons on ships of all types. SJC is sawn by two developers on similar principles and even ideally inferior to the current level of our sworn partners. Reliability, in some places, does not imply a hot reserve even in the concept. How do the developers of these systems see a battleship with a failed GAK? Or is it a drop in the level of developers? Ours still cannot make a normal large-caliber naval artillery system for surface ships, and they cannot so much that there are already proposals to put on the ships the result of the unnatural modification of the "Coalition". We have problems with tanks, which can no longer be brought up to the world average level; we get only "unparalleled". Unified MTO with quick replacement when will it be massively on the T72? What about our sighting systems for tanks? Where are the modern BOPS to defeat the tanks of a potential enemy? "Armata" is a good and well-developed concept, but it is not brought to the requirements of the army and is terribly expensive for a serial tank. While it is similar to our Russian AMX. In 10 years it will even be sensible. Small arms - we are working on AK, hammering on everything else or taking out the most successful exhibits from museums. We still don't have a modern army pistol. Aviation with space is about the same. The lack of an understanding of the Ministry of Defense what kind of war it is going to wage in the future leads to the emergence of inadequate TTT, and further to inadequate models "which have no analogues." We don't even have what the Red Army was after the war - the concept of a single system of small arms. Practically all R&D works on the search for new ideas are closed, but R&D works on old, already quite dead-end ideas are still open. Thanks to capitalism, they only saw what brings quick profits. The average level of production culture falls monstrously. You will not look at the civilian weapons of the new release without tears. Unsymmetrical parts with cutter, cutter and file marks are the current QC level. How to achieve this on CNC machines - I can't imagine. Why does OTK allow it? Propaganda reports show, at best, small-scale or craft production. And at the same time, nothing is heard even about the dismissal of the irresponsible, not to mention the landing. But the war is so important and it should not be allowed to go to market relations. Otherwise, another "shell hunger" will develop.