Military Review

"Su-30MKI cannot be compared to a combination of F-16 and AIM-120" - retired Pakistani general on the battle of the Indian and Pakistani air forces

95

In Pakistan, an interview with a military expert, general aviation retired Kizer Tufar, who is considered one of the country's best military pilots in recent years. A retired general with extensive experience in piloting F-16 fighters, comments on the situation regarding the border aviation confrontation between Pakistan and India.


In particular, the retired general spoke about the border air battle between the air forces of the two countries, which took place in February 2019 - after India struck Pakistani territory. This is the very battle that resulted in the Indian pilot Abhinandan Varthaman being shot down and taken prisoner.

Kizer Tufar:

India in Jammu and Kashmir used Su-30MKI aircraft and very old aircraft, our Air Force used F-16s. Since the Su-30MKI did not have a data transmission channel for the safe exchange of information with the MiG-21, its radar could not help in the confrontation with the Pakistani Air Force fighters. A Pakistani F-16 fighter fired an AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile during the conflict and shot down a MiG-21 in one fell swoop.

Pakistani general:

The Su-30MKI and MiG-29 fighters, which are in service with the Indian Air Force, certainly have high maneuverability. But this helps them only in battle in line of sight.

As noted by the Pakistani military expert, if we are talking about a battle in the air "beyond the line of sight," then these fighters show flaws. He considers the main disadvantage to be the difficulties with the exchange of information, with the maintenance of the network-centric system during the operation.

Tufar:

I cannot make an unambiguous conclusion about all the shortcomings of the Su-30MKI fighter's weapons control, but one thing is clear to me: these aircraft cannot be compared with the combination used by the Pakistani Air Force: F-16 and AIM-120 missiles. The Indian Air Force is aware of these restrictions, so they decided to place an order to buy the Rafale from the French.

At the same time, the Pakistani retired general, who in Pakistan itself and in the Chinese media is called an ace pilot, added that he would not talk about the high skill of Indian pilots Rafale today.

Recall that the first five fighters from France arrived in India at the end of July, and only recently they officially became part of the Indian Air Force.
95 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. RUnnm
    RUnnm 12 September 2020 08: 36 New
    +3
    I hope the specialists can explain, really
    ... Since the Su-30MKI did not have a data transmission channel for the safe exchange of information with the MiG-21
    ?
    I am not an expert in this matter at all, but is that possible?
    1. _Ugene_
      _Ugene_ 12 September 2020 08: 48 New
      22
      of course it is possible, the MiG-21 is a museum exhibit, the plane was relevant in the 60s of the last century
      1. SAG
        SAG 12 September 2020 08: 54 New
        +5
        "The Su-30MKI cannot be compared with the combination of the F-16 and AIM-120"
        It is incorrectly written ... The unmodernized MiG-21 in conjunction with the Su-30mki cannot be compared with the upgraded f-16 with the aim-120.
        Like the su-30mki with the f-16, the former outperforms ...
        1. _Ugene_
          _Ugene_ 12 September 2020 08: 56 New
          +6
          Like the su-30mki with the f-16, the former outperforms ...
          in what it is superior, in what it is inferior, and depending on which f-16, there are also a lot of versions
          1. figwam
            figwam 12 September 2020 09: 50 New
            15
            An F-16 launched an AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile during the conflict and shot down a MiG-21 in one fell swoop.

            What a thick trolling, apparently they forgot that the F-16 of the Pakistani Air Force was also shot down by the Indian MiG-21 and its fragments were secretly collected by the military and it was a shame for the whole world.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 September 2020 10: 40 New
              +8
              Quote: figvam
              apparently they forgot that the F-16 of the Pakistani air force was also shot down by the Indian MiG-21

              Is not a fact. It is very likely that the photo of the wreckage is exactly the MiG-21.
              1. figwam
                figwam 14 September 2020 06: 53 New
                +1
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Is not a fact. It is very likely that the photo of the wreckage is exactly the MiG-21.

                There is no F-16 wreck on the network, Pakistan is prohibited from using these aircraft in conflicts, except for suppressing terrorists, they violated it, so the F-16 wreck was collected by the military, and the police cordon did not allow civilians to approach.
            2. Baba Sasha
              Baba Sasha 13 September 2020 17: 26 New
              -2
              Stupid.
              1. Alexey Sommer
                Alexey Sommer 13 September 2020 17: 37 New
                -4
                Quote: Baba Sasha
                Stupid.

                Not only, still naive, like the Chukchi.
            3. Federal1
              Federal1 13 September 2020 21: 24 New
              -1
              do not repeat the nonsense of the Indians, not a single doc-va meant nothing and never happened. They all shoot down 10 litakivs per battle, that's the point. No f-16s were shot down
              1. figwam
                figwam 14 September 2020 06: 54 New
                +1
                Quote: Federal1
                do not repeat the nonsense of the Indians

                Why repeat the Pakistani nonsense? these are the same Hindus, only Muslims)))
        2. VO3A
          VO3A 12 September 2020 11: 13 New
          11
          And now in essence! In the air there is a group of aircraft equipped with a modern information exchange channel with display systems and joint target designation (network-centric). If there is a Su-30MKI among them, then any MiG-21 "sees" the same as the Su-30 with its radar ... If there is no such system and the F-16 goes to the MiG-21, then the latter does not "see" it, even if F16 is detected by Su-30 radar ... Such systems are especially effective when a 5th generation aircraft is used as an invisible reconnaissance aircraft, and the attack is carried out by 4th generation aircraft from the second echelon with long and medium-range missiles ... And the Pakistani general is cunning and confuses sheep with wolves and molds the Su-30 to an unequal duel ...
          1. VO3A
            VO3A 12 September 2020 11: 32 New
            -1
            He considers the main disadvantage to be the difficulties with the exchange of information, with the maintenance of the network-centric system during the operation.

            What kind of network-centric linkage and advantages on this basis can we talk about if the AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles simply weigh on the plane? The general heard enough new words and stupidly poked around from scratch ... thereby demonstrating his stupidity, and not understanding what he was talking about ... With them, generals, this often happens ...
          2. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 12 September 2020 18: 08 New
            11
            Quote: VO3A
            And now in essence! In the air there is a group of aircraft equipped with a modern information exchange channel with display systems and joint target designation (network-centric). If there is a Su-30MKI among them, then any MiG-21 "sees" the same as the Su-30 with its radar ... If there is no such system and the F-16 goes to the MiG-21, then the latter does not "see" it, even if F16 is detected by Su-30 radar ... Such systems are especially effective when a 5th generation aircraft is used as an invisible reconnaissance aircraft, and the attack is carried out by 4th generation aircraft from the second echelon with long and medium-range missiles ... And the Pakistani general is cunning and confuses sheep with wolves and molds the Su-30 to an unequal duel ...

            The Pakistani general does not mold anything, but speaks about the absence of a single information field
          3. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 13 September 2020 17: 21 New
            0
            Quote: VO3A
            If the Su-30MKI is among them, then any MiG-21 "sees" the same as the Su-30 with its radar.


            If the MiG-21 is equipped with appropriate communication equipment, that is not a fact at all.
          4. 3danimal
            3danimal 16 September 2020 00: 36 New
            -1
            also molds the Su-30 to an unequal duel ...

            The Indians had claims for the maximum range of the R-77 (about 80 km), in comparison with the AIM-120S7, which has a ~ 120 km range.
      2. RUnnm
        RUnnm 12 September 2020 08: 57 New
        0
        But they, for sure, were modernized
        1. _Ugene_
          _Ugene_ 12 September 2020 09: 00 New
          +4
          more than once, to what level they have been modernized in Pakistan, I don’t know, if we take the most modern versions of the f-16 Block 70/72 (afar APG-83, electronic warfare with jamming systems, helmet-mounted target designation system, Link 16), then everything is written correctly - Su-30mki is inferior to them at long distances, and in modern conditions the main battle takes place on them
          1. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 12 September 2020 09: 30 New
            13
            Quote: _Ugene_
            f-16 Block 70/72 (afar APG-83, electronic warfare with jamming systems, helmet-mounted target designation system, Link 16),


            They don't have that [Pakistanis in the sense]. The maximum is 18 sides of the 52nd block. And the 52nd lies in the detection range of the Bars.
            1. _Ugene_
              _Ugene_ 12 September 2020 10: 01 New
              +2
              yes, block 52 in my opinion is still SHAR
              1. Cyril G ...
                Cyril G ... 12 September 2020 10: 20 New
                +2
                Yes, as far as I remember ..... They, in fact, crossed the stage of passive PAR in aviation ...
          2. 3danimal
            3danimal 16 September 2020 10: 12 New
            0
            If we are talking about F-16v, then they are very well packaged. Helmet target designation system (for AIM-9x), radar with AFAR. The range of the AIM-120S7 exceeds that of the R-77 by 1,5 times.
    2. SSR
      SSR 12 September 2020 09: 09 New
      0
      Quote: RUnnm
      I hope the specialists can explain, really
      ... Since the Su-30MKI did not have a data transmission channel for the safe exchange of information with the MiG-21
      ?
      I am not an expert in this matter at all, but is that possible?

      There is a grain of reason in this.
      I remember the purchase of Mistrals, we did not receive the Mistral, but we got the SKD technology and control systems
      1. yehat2
        yehat2 12 September 2020 20: 32 New
        +4
        What makes you think that SKD technology was not available in our country?
        the Germans still assembled submarines this way during ww2, and the USA - transport workers.
        1. SSR
          SSR 12 September 2020 22: 06 New
          -1
          Quote: yehat2
          What makes you think that SKD technology was not available in our country?
          the Germans still assembled submarines this way during ww2, and the USA - transport workers.

          Sorry, please, but many simply do not understand what a "large-node" is in modern realities. Many do not understand that the SU-30 saw the aim-120 and left them, but they do not understand that the pilots of the MiG-21 cannot see it as the pilots of the Su-30, and the current systems cannot transmit this information to them on the display, but many experts write that there are displays on the MiG-21)))
          Many people write that the SU-30 has that Toto, but who the SU-30 and the Rafale are at 21 are not taken into account at all. The velvet quacks do not understand that something that can be shoved into the SU-30 unattractively into the MiG-21, and the Rafalevskoe is comparable.
          Many vests, think that under and even under some kind of tip or contactor for the H aircraft, we have a whole huge corporation working and working ...
          But don't be offended by different people. Why did I stop reacting to the statements of the Akhedzhakovs and Makarevichs? Because physicists and chemists think the same way, this is in most highly specialized people. Artists pretend to be what role they were given, physicists and engineers solve their problems, but they were not taught to understand the intricacies of politics or detective affairs, but they are all specialists in politics and economics.
          It’s funny and sad to read about why the vanalny’s girlfriend wasn’t arrested, they write like - the FSB screwed everything up! Yes, the FSB can spit on the rotan, if the trail leads to the hyena behind the rotan, the FSB will let the rotan pass, but the hyena must be left torn.
          It's just that I got crazy, there are so many specialists on the site who yell loudly, stink strongly, clog up the branches and it becomes almost impossible to discuss the article.
          1. yehat2
            yehat2 12 September 2020 23: 15 New
            +1
            I don’t understand why you said that we didn’t have a SKD technology.
            From my own experience, I met her in a variety of industries - from bridges to heavy engineering.
            Now, even in private housing construction, such technologies have begun to be used.
            And suddenly there is nothing in shipbuilding, especially since a piece of mistral was made quickly at the Admiralty shipyards.
            1. SSR
              SSR 13 September 2020 07: 17 New
              +1
              Quote: yehat2
              that we didn't have the SKD technology.

              It's one thing to dock two metal cases and a little different when two stuffed / stuffed cases dock. We didn't even have such production facilities, now we have one Swiss company as the basis. This is only one direction.
              1. yehat2
                yehat2 17 September 2020 16: 34 New
                0
                yes we had it. The same aircraft-carrying cruisers were partially created in this way.
                And submarines from Leningrad to the Far East were transported piece by piece and assembled there - they were immediately made in blocks and it was here that the Germans spied on this technology to speed up the assembly of their submarines.
          2. 3danimal
            3danimal 16 September 2020 10: 15 New
            0
            The SU-30 saw the AIM-120 and left them, but they do not understand that the MiG-21 pilots cannot see it like the Su-30 pilots.

            Had seen? Than? (And at what range?) He could have triggered a PDF when irradiating an enemy radar. And he dodged the fight. The same should be on the MiG-21.
            1. SSR
              SSR 16 September 2020 19: 49 New
              0
              Quote: 3danimal
              The SU-30 saw the AIM-120 and left them, but they do not understand that the MiG-21 pilots cannot see it like the Su-30 pilots.

              Had seen? Than? (And at what range?) He could have triggered a PDF when irradiating an enemy radar. And he dodged the fight. The same should be on the MiG-21.

              Do you understand what you are asking? In your opinion, the Su-30 evaded combat after the irradiation, and the MiG-21 after the irradiation decided not to evade? Although the MiG should be the same as the Su-30)))
              You can independently inquire about the performance characteristics of the AIM 120, the MiG-21 and Su-30 radars, I'm sure that there is a powerful radar in the tube of the 21st, and that the Su30x pilots informed the MiG pilot by radio that they were "irradiated" and they decided from one irradiation tick from the battlefield.)))
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. 3danimal
                3danimal 17 September 2020 05: 33 New
                -1
                I mean that both of them should have seen the attack with the help of SPO, but the outdated MiGs could not survive, as well as counterattack. IMHO
    3. SSR
      SSR 12 September 2020 09: 13 New
      -3
      Quote: RUnnm
      I hope the specialists can explain, really
      ... Since the Su-30MKI did not have a data transmission channel for the safe exchange of information with the MiG-21
      ?
      I am not an expert in this matter at all, but is that possible?

      Remember the Mistrals, we didn’t get them, but we did get SKD technology and a control system.
      Most likely, Rafali was purchased by the Indians with our participation, to obtain some technologies bypassing the so-called sanctions.
      It's just that the cooperation of the Russian Federation with the Indians did not curtail, it was simply veiled. Not everything is as straightforward as they say in the press.
    4. Herman 4223
      Herman 4223 12 September 2020 09: 27 New
      +2
      If the Su-30 radar spotted enemy fighters, then warning it is not a problem. For the Su-30, it is definitely not a problem, since air combat control of a group of fighters is what this aircraft was originally created for, this is one of its functions.
      1. VO3A
        VO3A 12 September 2020 11: 50 New
        13
        then it's not a problem to warn

        How ? Scream on the radio that at a distance of 100 km, 1 km lower for 1 hour, F16 ... comes out at you, and how can you determine this? Wanting is not harmful ... we only want to put such a channel of information exchange with other Su-30 and Su-30 and Su-35 on the modernized Su-57 ... And also with ground complexes and our AWACS, and we also need to learn how to use this after receiving the planes, including the Su-57 ... It's not for you to drive off other people's planes and look inside the transport ... Show-off and modern war are two different things !!!
        1. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan 12 September 2020 20: 44 New
          -1
          Quote: VO3A
          How ? Shout on the radio that at a distance of 100 km, 1 km lower for 1 hour, F16 comes out at you ...

          Why not? over there, the year before last, the Americans told with incredible pride how the F-35 pilot warned the F-16 pilot during the exercises on the radio about the danger. and nitsche, proud as an achievement!
        2. Herman 4223
          Herman 4223 14 September 2020 07: 24 New
          -1
          That is, you are now trying to prove that the mig-31 and su-30 do not have the function of controlling a group of fighters in battle?
          So this is definitely not true.
        3. Herman 4223
          Herman 4223 14 September 2020 07: 41 New
          0
          Another question, what is telecode communication equipment for data exchange in a group of fighters? Which began to be installed on our aircraft back in the 80s.
          1. VO3A
            VO3A 14 September 2020 11: 06 New
            0
            You can ask yourself this question! ..On the first MiG-25P there was a RKL, with the help of which "naked" aircraft were guided from the ground with the help of the operator's commands until the target was captured by the interceptor missiles or before visual contact ... On this basis, you can draw the same profound conclusion:
            So this is definitely not true.
            1. Herman 4223
              Herman 4223 14 September 2020 11: 35 New
              0
              I asked you a question, because such equipment was already on the Su-27.
              1. VO3A
                VO3A 14 September 2020 11: 42 New
                0
                What is this and on what Su-27? Anyone can ask questions ....!
                1. Herman 4223
                  Herman 4223 14 September 2020 11: 50 New
                  0
                  Well, now they have switched to rudeness. You wrote how the Su-30 can warn?
                  They wrote to you that this is possible, and not necessarily over the radio in plain text.
                  1. VO3A
                    VO3A 14 September 2020 11: 56 New
                    0
                    Fantasize further! I answered your pointless questions!
                    2 planes (and a person too? !!) are participating in the exchange of information, they must be equipped with such equipment! Is it clear? This time! The depth of this interaction may be different and not at all! These are two.! Even the F-22 has limitations! It is being finalized now!
          2. VO3A
            VO3A 14 September 2020 11: 22 New
            0
            The onboard equipment of the MiG-31BM aircraft provides the ability to effectively interact with air defense missile systems. In addition to fighting air and ground targets, this aircraft can also be used as a kind of air command post, coordinating the actions of other types of fighters equipped with less powerful radars. The MiG-31BM equipment also provides for very "exotic" scenarios for the combat use of fighters. So, the interceptor can direct missiles launched from the side of other fighters to air targets, approaching the enemy at a missile salvo range in the radar silence mode. In a number of combat situations, such tactics can significantly increase the effectiveness of the fighter group.

            http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/mig31bm.html
            And how to understand this, and what it allows, can the person who used this system. He knows that she really can, and that only fairy tales! In 1982, after college, I ended up in a combat aviation regiment, it was a shock, after the wishes of theoretical teachers and scientists! Such a training system is flourishing at the present time, the technique is taught to you to use people who themselves never knew how to do it and do not know its real capabilities, from the word in general !!!
  2. K-50
    K-50 12 September 2020 08: 47 New
    +7
    The Indian Air Force is aware of these restrictions, so they decided to place an order for the Rafale from the French.

    Heh! You might think that the Rafali would dock with the MiG-21 over a network-centric data link! fellow lol
    It is impossible to "tie" them to anything, because they are outdated long ago.
    1. Alexander Seklitsky
      Alexander Seklitsky 12 September 2020 08: 57 New
      +5
      update the filling and go ahead. Moreover, 21 of them seem to have been modernized not so long ago. Migovtsy changed their avionics to modern
      1. K-50
        K-50 12 September 2020 09: 05 New
        -2
        Quote: Alexander Seklitsky
        update the filling and go

        Then it's cheaper to buy a new one. lol
        1. Alexander Seklitsky
          Alexander Seklitsky 12 September 2020 09: 15 New
          +2
          Well, if there are still old ones in a state of airworthiness, then it is irrational to write them off. I think the exchange of data between aircraft is quite a feasible task. Moreover, it seems that Indian flashes already have multidisplays in the cockpits.
      2. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 12 September 2020 11: 15 New
        +6
        Quote: Alexander Seklitsky
        Moreover, their 21 seems to have been modernized not so long ago

        MiG-21MF cockpit
      3. Firelake
        Firelake 14 September 2020 11: 59 New
        +1
        Did you take into account the space and energy consumption?
    2. VO3A
      VO3A 13 September 2020 20: 32 New
      +1
      Rafali won't dock with the Su-30 either! After all, the possibility of interaction is not determined by the communication channel! Such a possibility should be provided for by the REO complex. Not everything is so simple here, even for open architecture! Remember how everyone laughed at the constant software tweaks for the F35. Everyone narrowly thinks that these are flaws, or maybe an increase in capabilities and debugging of interaction? In this regard, the F35s are much advanced even compared to the F22!
  3. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 12 September 2020 08: 51 New
    +3
    The 21st Instant is generally ... in modern air combat at long distances - a deaf-blind orphan! Now, if I got close to the line-of-sight distance, then ... quite fast and maneuverable, light and thrust-to-weight ratio at the level ... well, acceptable. An experienced pilot could "twist" in close combat ... even with an F-16.
    1. tourist
      tourist 12 September 2020 08: 59 New
      11
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      An experienced pilot could "twist" in close combat ... even with an F-16.

      What actually was demonstrated by the Indian pilot ... There the story is dark and the Pakistani pilot is silent about many things
      1. SovAr238A
        SovAr238A 12 September 2020 21: 23 New
        +4
        Quote: turist
        Quote: Mountain Shooter
        An experienced pilot could "twist" in close combat ... even with an F-16.

        What actually was demonstrated by the Indian pilot ... There the story is dark and the Pakistani pilot is silent about many things

        Why come up with that?
        What has he demonstrated?
        A rocket was launched into it from almost 50 kilometers, and hitting it was a complete surprise ...
        He didn't even understand anything ...
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 13 September 2020 10: 40 New
          +2
          Quote: SovAr238A
          A rocket was launched into it from almost 50 kilometers, and hitting it was a complete surprise ...
          He didn't even understand anything ...

          You have the details of that fight. The number of consumed RVV, Dpusk, aircraft altitude and flight speed, etc. etc.? Or so fortune telling on coffee grounds?
    2. Alexander Seklitsky
      Alexander Seklitsky 12 September 2020 09: 00 New
      +1
      Well, I think in conjunction with a modern aircraft, having target designation from it, it is quite suitable.
    3. yehat2
      yehat2 12 September 2020 20: 34 New
      0
      there are very few chances to spin with F-16.
      21 is better than him in speed
  4. Lipchanin
    Lipchanin 12 September 2020 08: 59 New
    +1
    At the same time, the Pakistani retired general, who in Pakistan itself and in the Chinese media is called an ace pilot, added that he would not talk about the high skill of Indian pilots Rafale today.

    Why should he get skill for such a short time
    1. SovAr238A
      SovAr238A 12 September 2020 21: 24 New
      +1
      Quote: Lipchanin
      At the same time, the Pakistani retired general, who in Pakistan itself and in the Chinese media is called an ace pilot, added that he would not talk about the high skill of Indian pilots Rafale today.

      Why should he get skill for such a short time


      Hindus trained in France for a couple of years.
  5. Vitaly Tsymbal
    Vitaly Tsymbal 12 September 2020 09: 15 New
    +1
    I am personally always strained by the expert assessment of retirees, even generals ... It is clear that everyone will praise "their own swamp." I think the Pakistanis are even glad that the Indians have focused on Rafali, and not on Russian aircraft. But I am not a specialist, although a specialist can only compare characteristics and assume. And I have not heard about real air battles between Indian dryers and Efki.
  6. Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 12 September 2020 09: 20 New
    +9
    If you translate into Russian, and forget that the Pakistanis officially count the Victory over the MiG-21 as Thunder, then the following comes out. We defeated the MiG-21 Ou, how cool and the Su-30 could not help him. Garbage that Bars sees further than Block-52 ..... As for me, the Pakistanis, having shot down the MiG, immediately broke the distance and left
    If the general were so smart, why would he have a battle diagram showing the stages of maneuvering, detection time and the time and range of launches.
  7. Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 12 September 2020 09: 32 New
    +2
    Quote: Alexander Seklitsky
    their 21 seems to have had a modernization not so long ago


    Recently it was 15-20 years ago.
    1. Alexander Seklitsky
      Alexander Seklitsky 12 September 2020 16: 08 New
      0
      I don't know, but there are already multidisplays
  8. APASUS
    APASUS 12 September 2020 09: 40 New
    11
    Here the translation is somehow strange or the author got it wrong. They compare the F-16 and the AIM-120 missiles with the data transmission system of the Su-30MKI and MiG-21.
    Samovar and the width of the rug in the car .............
  9. tralflot1832
    tralflot1832 12 September 2020 10: 14 New
    +2
    The infantry is sitting on the ground; let the pilots understand. drinks
  10. huntsman650
    huntsman650 12 September 2020 10: 21 New
    -12
    In a word, our radars on airplanes are bad, to put it mildly. The enemy will find us earlier and destroy us. And those who break through to the melee distance after using up the ammunition will go to the ram.
    The military-industrial complex is a very propogandistic complex)))
  11. Bez 310
    Bez 310 12 September 2020 12: 17 New
    -6
    Watching the experts get their asses off the couches
    stuck to the keyboard, and discuss the unknown.
    Since you are such specialists here, tell me - on the Su-30
    (do we or the Indians) have rockets, at least
    a bit like the AIM-120 AMRAAM?
    1. Hexenmeister
      Hexenmeister 12 September 2020 13: 24 New
      -4
      Similar what? Appearance? Coloring? By aiming method? By recycling method? Characteristics?
      1. Bez 310
        Bez 310 12 September 2020 14: 35 New
        -1
        How cleverly answered!
        Expert, I guess ...
        1. Hexenmeister
          Hexenmeister 12 September 2020 15: 40 New
          0
          But essentially have something to say?
          1. Bez 310
            Bez 310 12 September 2020 15: 46 New
            -7
            Okay, let's essentially.
            Do we or the Indians have B-B missiles for
            Su-30 aircraft with a launch range of more than 100 km?
            1. Hexenmeister
              Hexenmeister 12 September 2020 16: 08 New
              +5
              And where does the figure of 100 km? Do you think the AIM-120 has such a launch range? Well, for your information, naming the value of the launch range of the air-to-air missile must be sure to indicate the following additional information:
              - the launch is carried out in pursuit or towards;
              - parameters of the movement of the carrier;
              - parameters of target movement;
              - model of target behavior in the process of missile guidance.
              Can you name the numbers of the launch rates for AIM-120, R-77, R-27 in the same conditions, together with additional information ??? If you can't, then you don't need to act as an appraiser! Leave stories about some 120 or 180 km for gatherings on the bench.
              1. Bez 310
                Bez 310 12 September 2020 16: 14 New
                -5
                Quote: Hexenmeister
                And where does the figure of 100 km?

                What are you so excited about?
                Simple question, and you react so violently ...
                Well, if objectively, do we have a missile on the Su-30
                better than AIM-120 (in terms of characteristics)?
                Just don’t have to try not to answer.
                to a direct answer.
                1. Hexenmeister
                  Hexenmeister 12 September 2020 16: 22 New
                  0
                  That is, you do not know if there is such a rocket or not?
                  1. Bez 310
                    Bez 310 12 September 2020 16: 41 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Hexenmeister
                    Do you know if there is such a rocket or not?

                    I don’t know, I’m a layman in fighters.
                  2. businessv
                    businessv 12 September 2020 20: 38 New
                    +5
                    Quote: Hexenmeister
                    That is, you do not know if there is such a rocket or not?
                    This is the fourth time that you are not answering a specific question of your opponent, although his questions are quite direct. If you don’t know, don’t litter the air, please, I am also interested in the answers to the questions asked!
            2. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 12 September 2020 17: 04 New
              +3
              And that the RVV shoot at a distance of 100 km or more? I behold, not by nightfall, be he remembered, lieutenant colonel Higby studied. Combat outside visual range. The work was published in 2010.
              So there, the statistics of the use of RVV are quite specifically studied and the Dpuska is taken into account. In reality, it turns out that the RVV SD for the last 20-30 years was used no further than 0.3..0.4 x Dpuska max. And in all known cases, the enemy did not interfere with the AiM-120. At the same time, its effectiveness was estimated in the region of 50-60 percent of the missiles hitting the target. Regarding your question. I do not know. RVV R-77 began to be used in the training practice of our Air Force, as far as I know. After the famous battle, the Indians again bought the P-77 and, by the way, the P-27.
              All the circumstances of the battle between Pakistanis and Hindus are not known from the word at all. I personally thought the MiG-21 was in the vanguard of the chase, and it was shot down. Maybe an ambush group. And then the Pakistanis evaded the battle with the approaching Su-30s, limiting themselves to a couple of unsuccessful launches from the maximum distance. The Hindus did not cross the border. As it was in reality, one can only guess.
              By the way, a question for you - have the Navy MA during the last 30-35 years used torpedoes and APR in combat training?

              are there any missiles even slightly similar to the AIM-120 AMRAAM?

              And what kind of AiM-120 are you talking about? And that is Model A, Model B, Model C, Model D.
              1. Bez 310
                Bez 310 12 September 2020 17: 20 New
                -1
                Quote: Cyril G ...
                During the last 30-35 years, the Navy MA used torpedoes and APR in combat training?

                Why do you need this information?
                I try not to answer questions about combat training.
                All the answers can be found in the jubilant reports of the press officers.

                I will express my personal evaluative opinion - everything is very bad there ...
                1. Cyril G ...
                  Cyril G ... 12 September 2020 17: 35 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Bez 310
                  I will express my personal evaluative opinion - everything is very bad there ...

                  Thank. I thought so.

                  All the answers can be found in the jubilant reports of the press officers.

                  Better not to read it

                  The question is different, all other things being equal, all the problems of the Navy, in contrast to the army, in principle, are not clear to anyone.
            3. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 13 September 2020 17: 30 New
              0
              Quote: Bez 310
              Do we or the Indians have B-B missiles for
              Su-30 aircraft with a launch range of more than 100 km?


              Russia has it, RVV-SD.
    2. Alexander Seklitsky
      Alexander Seklitsky 12 September 2020 16: 09 New
      +4
      p 77 analogue in range. And is considered a medium range missile
    3. yehat2
      yehat2 12 September 2020 20: 36 New
      0
      on performance characteristics there are similar, but they are purely conditional. They lie at exhibitions, but there are very few in warehouses.
    4. Charik
      Charik 13 September 2020 12: 28 New
      0
      R-27 ET and ER R-77 but with some differences in control-range- and something else
    5. tomket
      tomket 13 September 2020 15: 39 New
      0
      Quote: Bez 310
      are there any missiles, at least
      a bit like the AIM-120 AMRAAM?

      We have R-77, the Indians have plans to equip the Su-30 with Israeli missiles.
  12. Shadow041
    Shadow041 12 September 2020 16: 24 New
    +4
    The US Air Force, even using Awax, could not win a training battle with the Indians on the Su-30, so the Pakistani was puffing his cheeks in vain. Let's see what happens when they engage in real combat with the Su-30, and not with the museum MiG-21.
  13. The comment was deleted.
  14. Alexy
    Alexy 13 September 2020 04: 43 New
    +1
    Some nonsense from the general. Shot down the moment-21, and he talks about the Su-30.
  15. nov_tech.vrn
    nov_tech.vrn 13 September 2020 08: 50 New
    0
    In general, given the exchange of the archived moment-21 for the f-16, of course the Pakistani aces are at their best.
  16. Alexander Schumacher
    Alexander Schumacher 13 September 2020 09: 16 New
    0
    that I did not catch the logic, they shot down a museum exhibit, not the SU-30MKI, they compare the average plane and the very old plane versus the plane and the missile, where is the logic? an analogue of the AIM-120 missile, like our P77, but I could be wrong. and constantly someone that invented the last one at this moment and the best then another will invent a little better and so the staircase goes. + many new bundles of jamming drones, photonic radars which detect everything. in general, India itself is to blame !! it was necessary not to give up SU57. but they want to take a little everywhere and porridge wakes up at the exit. of course the Rafaeli and the Russians will not be in tandem. etc.
  17. d4rkmesa
    d4rkmesa 13 September 2020 12: 38 New
    +1
    That fight is not an indicator at all. The packs prepared in advance, assembled a kind of combined air regiment, with 16+ fighters. They were met only by the "duty" deuces Mig-21 and "Mirage", and with some delay - by the four su-30mki. Because the initiative and numerical advantage were on the side of the packs, they quickly fired off the AIM-120 and returned. The Indians, except for the MiG-21, which was lost and fell on the territory controlled by Pakistan, evaded AIM-120, but the packs did not engage in further battle. The packs now have a big problem - a shortage of combat-ready aircraft, and there are hardly many AIM-120 missiles left. But the Indians are already ready - instead of MiG-21 and Mirages, there will now be MiG-29 and Rafali. And they bought missiles last year.
    1. Crabong
      Crabong 13 September 2020 13: 43 New
      0
      That's just Paky here and great! And the gypsies fouled the flash.
  18. Crabong
    Crabong 13 September 2020 13: 42 New
    +2
    What was instant-21 doing there? If there was literally a dueling situation of gaining superiority ... Here the main role is played by the radar and the rocket. All these miracles of super-maneuverability are just magic tricks for air shows.
    1. Viktor Sergeev
      Viktor Sergeev 13 September 2020 18: 33 New
      +1
      Study the issue of using missiles, which part of the rocket flies with the engine on, which part it flies like a brick and loses speed, how it affects the rocket's maneuverability, how a cobra-type maneuver (a sharp decrease in speed to 0) affects rocket guidance (target tracking). And before the next time you write your stupidity, study the question of how the Americans fought the C75 by sending lightweight Phantoms so that they would fire at them and maneuver them away from missiles.
      Let me tell you a secret: to shoot at a single plane, they shoot with one rocket, if there is a time for repeated firing, if there is no time they shoot with two, they hit some targets with 3 missiles, since the plane can escape from one due to the maneuver (but from the second, after the maneuver , having lost speed and ability to maneuver, the plane will not leave).
      So, go to the army, to the air defense, maybe you will find out something.
      And now on Mig21. The aircraft is great, but it has a rather weak radar and needs ground guidance for use. If Mig21 knew about the launch of a missile on it, and the pilot was good, then due to the maneuver it could well have left.
      Mig21 "Bizon" is the most perfect variant of Mig21. "Spear" has a range of 57 km, as a result, external guidance is needed in the form of ground vehicles, AWACS or something similar to the Su30.
      Conclusion: Mig21 is an excellent plane, but Indians have crooked brains and hands.
  19. Baba Sasha
    Baba Sasha 13 September 2020 17: 29 New
    -4
    F 16 against all analogueGoNets 65: 0.
  20. Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 13 September 2020 18: 16 New
    0
    I would put it more simply: the Indians have crooked hands and an empty head, which does not allow organizing a battle taking into account the advantages of Migov and Su. I don’t understand one thing: how did the Su and Mig fail to communicate and why, seeing the enemy, did the Su30 not attack him with an advantage in speed and maneuverability?
  21. Magmax
    Magmax 13 September 2020 22: 16 New
    +2
    Vith all due respect to the general i belleive he is wrong. India has massive and a strong airforce vich Pakistan can hardly match due to financial problems.
  22. chingachguc
    chingachguc 14 September 2020 20: 46 New
    0
    As far as I remember, the MiG-21 was modernized by the Jews. Of course, they will not have a secure channel and interact with our aircraft. The Hindus generally have a real zoo. But that's their problem.