Battle of the Moskva River

Napoleon at Borodino

Side forces and position

On September 4 (new style), 1812, Kutuzov wrote in a report to Emperor Alexander:

The position in which I stopped at the village of Borodino, 12 versts ahead of Mozhaisk, is one of the best that can be found only on flat places. The weak point of this position, which is on the left flank, I will try to correct with art. It is desirable that the enemy attack us in this position, then I have great hope for victory.

But not everyone considered the location "successful". For example, the eminent commander Barclay de Tolly believed that "It was profitable in the center and on the right flank, but the left wing in a straight line with the center was completely unsupported." Bennigsen evaluated her as follows: "This was the greatest mistake that could have been made by acting against Napoleon, whose system is known and against which, therefore, measures can be taken, as I showed in the war of 1806-1807." Napoleon and Clausewitz also considered the position of the Russians extremely weak.

The Borodino position included two roads: Novaya Smolenskaya, which passed through the village of Borodino, and Staraya Smolenskaya, which passed through the village of Utitsa. The left flank of the Russian position rested against an extremely dense forest. The right flank was covered by the Maslovsky forest.

To create strongholds, the heights of the villages of Semenovskoye and Shevardino, as well as the Utitsky Kurgan, were used. The Borodino position was quite crossed, which made it possible to hide part of its troops from the enemy and at the same time did not allow the enemy to make wide maneuvers.

On September 5 and 7, engineering preparation for the battle was carried out. In this short period of time, it was possible to erect the Maslovsky fortification, three batteries at Gorka, the Kurgan battery and make a trench for the rangers. After engineering work, Kutuzov set about organizing the rear. On September 4, Kutuzov ordered Rostopchin to accept "All possible measures for the earliest possible procurement of 1000 carts for each station from Moscow to Mozhaisk. Without these allowances, hostilities can be stopped with the greatest harm."... Soon Kutuzov ordered Rostopchin to ensure the organization of mobile stores for the troops.

On August 29, 1812, Kutuzov reported to the Tsar that there were 89.562 soldiers in the army and 10.891 non-commissioned and chief officers with 605 guns. Soon, reinforcements arrived at Kutuzov in the form of 15.000 people under the command of Miloradovich. The Russian army also numbered 7 thousand warriors of Smolensk and 20 thousand warriors of the Moscow militia. Of the militias, only 10 thousand were in the system, and the rest were distributed to the rear. On the day of the Borodino battle, the number of guns increased to 640. Based on all this, the size of the Russian army in the Battle of Borodino can be estimated at 126 thousand people with 640 guns.

Kutuzov and his staff thought that Napoleon had about 180 thousand men and 1 thousand guns with him. Bagration thought that the number of French troops was about 140 thousand people.

On September 2-3, Napoleon ordered a roll call, so that we know a fairly accurate number of French troops: 135 thousand people with 587 guns. Napoleon, not having accurate information about the size of the Russian army, thought that it was about 130 thousand people.

Borodino field

Shevardino fight

Kutuzov simply needed to complete engineering and other preparatory work, so the commander-in-chief decided to detain the French at the village of Shevardino. Württemberg officer Fleischmann recalls:

The enemy again chose a very good position. On the left flank, its artillery rested against the spacious building of the monastery, which was firmly occupied by foot rangers. The right flank was covered by numerous cavalry.

Before the battle (September 5), Kutuzov told the soldiers:

Guys, today you will have to defend your native land; one must serve by faith and righteousness to the last drop of blood; each regiment will be used in action; you will be replaced like sentries every two hours; I hope in you, God help us! Serve a prayer service ”.

Such emotional sayings of Kutuzov had a very favorable effect on the soldiers and inspired them.

Meanwhile, Poniatovsky's corps was walking along the Old Smolensk road, the I, III and IV infantry corps and the guard were moving in the center. On the left flank was Pear's cavalry and Prince Eugene's corps.

Kutuzov gave the order to withdraw the troops of the left flank to the village of Utice. The departing troops were supposed to defend the Shevardinsky redoubt. In total, there were 12 thousand people with 36 guns. The commander was Gorchakov.

Murat went on the attack, but the huntsmen opened powerful fire on the enemy. The Jaegers made it extremely difficult for Napoleon to deploy his forces. He moved 30 thousand men with 186 guns to capture the redoubt. Prince Poniatovsky began a new attack, pushing back Karpov's detachment. Soon Davout took the village of Fomkina, and Compan opened artillery fire on the redoubt.

Attempts by Prince Poniatowski to bypass the redoubt from the south failed. The prince was hindered by Russian artillery to make a detour, so he led his troops to attack the rangers. The Jaegers fought bravely, but they had to retreat under the onslaught of the superior forces of the enemy. Soon, the French, reinforced by the divisions of Moran and Friant from the Davout corps, finally took the redoubt and the village of Chevardino. Napoleon in Bulletin 18 says:

At four o'clock the attack began. An hour later, the enemy's redoubt was captured along with the cannons; the enemy corps, forced out of the forest and put to flight, he left a third of his composition on the battlefield. The fire stopped at seven in the evening.

The Russian command launched a counteroffensive, crushing two columns of the French with infantry and cavalry and capturing the heights at Doronin. Soon, at 21:00, the former owners again had the redoubt, and at 23:XNUMX the Russian troops began to withdraw.

After the battle, the troops lit fires and began to eat. The night passed quietly.

Attack of the Shevardinsky Redoubt

Battle of Borodino

On the morning of September 6, Kutuzov drove around his positions. He also ordered to bring an icon of the Smolensk Mother of God. Soldiers and officers ran to the icon to pray. It is noteworthy that many soldiers and officers, in anticipation of tomorrow's battle, prepared for death, not taking a portion of wine and thinking about their lives. The day passed relatively calmly, with only the left flank being fired. Everyone was preparing for tomorrow's battle.

Meanwhile, in the morning Napoleon also drove around his positions, examining in detail his center and left flank. Then he went to the right flank, where the Poniatovsky corps was located. Napoleon gave his soldiers a rest that day. Napoleon wanted to strike on the left flank of the Russians, and then to the center.

Kutuzov was also engaged in strengthening the defense. He gave the order to strengthen the Maslovsky and Semyonovsky flushes. Soon Kutuzov voiced the disposition that determined the course of the battle. The army was in fact divided into four groups that could interact and act independently.

Kutuzov put emphasis on the preservation of the New Smolensk road. On September 5, he wrote:

If the enemy with the main forces will have a movement to our left flank, where the army of Prince Bagration, and attacks, then the 2nd and 4th corps go to the left flank of the army, making up a reserve thereof.

On September 7, at 5 o'clock in the morning, the French attacked a detachment occupying the village of Borodino, which they soon took. Having captured the village, Prince Eugene stopped the offensive. The Viceroy was supposed to attack the center after the Semyonovski flushes were successful.

On the left flank, Poniatovsky's corps went around the enemy's left flank. Napoleon ordered him to hurry, but the prince went to the village of Utice at eight in the morning.

The battles for Semyonovskie flashes began after five o'clock in the morning with artillery shelling. Dreiling recalls: “The roar of a thousand guns, rifle fire - all this merged into one continuous hum; the hum is no longer audible; there comes a state that cannot be described, as if you really do not feel anything; there is a doubt: are you alive? "... Soon the flushes began to change hands, but the French still managed to take the flushes.

At 10 o'clock in the morning, Kutuzov ordered Platov and Uvarov to sabotage the French left flank. Napoleon was forced to send 30 thousand people to his left flank. Kutuzov made Napoleon lose two of the most precious hours, and at 15 o'clock Kutuzov ordered the cavalry to return to their original position.

Friant's division captured the village of Semenovskaya. In the middle of the day, Napoleon launched a powerful attack on Rayevsky's batteries. 70 French guns fired flanking, and 60 guns fired at the battery from the front. The batteries have been taken.

After 16 pm and until nightfall, skirmishes and artillery fire continued. At midnight Kutuzov ordered to withdraw for Mozhaisk.

Battle of Borodino

Hack and predictor Aviator

Despite the fact that Kutuzov announced his victory, the battle cannot be called a clear success of the Russian troops, since all the fortifications were taken by the French. But it cannot be said that the French won the battle. In the battle, Napoleon suffered heavy losses while the Russian army retreated in perfect order. As a result, Napoleon received a devastated Moscow, which was a burden and an unnecessary trophy for him. So we can say that Napoleon won a tactical victory, and Kutuzov won a strategic one.

List of used literature:

1. Bloodless L.G. The entire Patriotic War of 1812: full presentation. Moscow: Algorithm, 2017 p.
2. Malyshkin S.A. Chronology of events of the Battle of Borodino.
3. Colencourt, Armand de. Napoleon through the eyes of a diplomat and a general. Moscow: AST, 2016 p.
4. Anufriev V.P. Chronology of the Shevardinsky battle.

Comments

[Al_lexx]

This battle (and the whole war) will be discussed as long as it is remembered.

[Doctor]

This battle (and the whole war) will be discussed as long as it is remembered.

As an example.

Archival documents on the Patriotic War of 1812 are kept in the RGVIA. The archive specialists note the following fact: for 200 years, researchers have taken the same group of documents, ignoring the main array.
This group of documents forms an opinion on the decisive contribution of Kutuzov and the Battle of Borodino to victory.

At the same time, such an obvious fact is forgotten: 610 thousand French crossed the border of Russia, and 130-180 thousand reached Borodino. That is, 425-480 thousand were killed in "battles of local importance."

In 2011, RGVIA republished the "Combat calendar-daily of the Patriotic War of 1812", which contains a list of military clashes of the Russian army from June 4 (16) to August 31 (September 12), 1812. Its author is Nikolai Petrovich Polikarpov, colonel of the Russian imperial army.

Everything is a little different there. The key battle is Tarutinskoye, and Kutuzov's role is slightly different ...

[qQQQ]

Quote: Arzt

the role of Kutuzov is slightly different ...

I also think that the role of Kutuzov is greatly exaggerated, and he spent the Borodino battle, to put it mildly, not very well for us.

[Doctor]

I also think that the role of Kutuzov is greatly exaggerated, and he spent the Borodino battle, to put it mildly, not very well for us.

His Serene Prince Golenishchev-Kutuzov-Smolensky...

[qQQQ]

Quote: Arzt

His Serene Highness Prince Golenishchev-Kutuzov-Smolensky

And what does this have to do with the Battle of Borodino?

[Doctor]

And what does this have to do with the Battle of Borodino?

If the main battle is Borodino, it must be Kutuzov - Borodinsky.
Another mystery ...

[qQQQ]

Quote: Arzt

Another mystery ...

Yes, there is no secret, the Battle of Borodino was carried out rather mediocrely, Kutuzov at the time of its conduct was old and, apparently, was rather slow in thinking. And Tolstoy sang it as a kind of people's general, respectively, this flag was picked up by Soviet propaganda.

[Doctor]

Yes, there is no secret, the Battle of Borodino was carried out rather mediocrely, Kutuzov at the time of its conduct was old and, apparently, was rather slow in thinking. And Tolstoy sang it as a kind of people's general, respectively, this flag was picked up by Soviet propaganda.

This is yes. It's not even mediocrity, but bloodiness.

I have never been impressionable, but during all my visits to Borodino I felt very uncomfortable. What is called negative energy.

At the same time, I did not feel anything like this either in Prokhorovka, or on the Sinyavinsky Heights, or even in Stalingrad.

[qQQQ]

Maybe I visited Borodino once. Bloody due to the fact that Kutuzov did not guess, as they say now, the direction of the main attack, and practically the entire battle threw reserves and troops from other directions to patch holes in parts, while the French almost always had a numerical superiority, plus artillery, with a numerical superiority , was dispersed and everywhere, and where necessary, yielded, sometimes several times, to the French, hence the "bloody" of this battle, people plugged all the flaws of the command.

[Dangerous]

"At the same time, such an obvious fact is forgotten: 610 thousand Frenchmen crossed the border of Russia, and 130-180 thousand reached Borodino. That is, 425-480 thousand were killed in" battles of local importance. "Wink"
What are the children's findings ?? Two powerful armies covered the central one on the southern and northern flanks. Yes, and the French garrisons were located in all the little towns and villages that they captured

[Doctor]

What are the children's findings ?? Two powerful armies covered the central one on the southern and northern flanks. Yes, and the French garrisons were located in all the little towns and villages that they captured

How many Frenchmen left Russia? A maximum of 40 remained near Borodino. Out of 000.

[Beringovsky]

Well, just the same, and the French garrisons in the villages!
Peizanok was occupied, or what?

[The Word of the Word]

"That is, 425-480 thousand were killed in" battles of local importance "
You are a dreamer, however) Most of them were provided by communications, and real losses (combat and sanitary) hardly exceeded 100-150 thousand.

[Spartanec]

Did you get the figure of 400 thousand dead by subtraction?)))) Or studied the layer of historical documents that others did not read) I want to add my fly in the ointment to your barrel of honey. You completely forgot that any army needs at least to exercise control over the captured territory and, plus, to organize the supply of the main strike forces. By the way, the rather large forces of the French army that did not participate in the Borodino battle were engaged. So the losses in local battles were of course large, but absolutely certainly not 400 thousand, but at least two times less)))) and maybe even more than half as much. And by the way, that is why, when the French retreated, there was no such battle as at Borodino, Kutuzov took over his army, giving the right to hunger and cold to destroy the enemy. Although Kutuzov was pushed by many hotheads of that time to such a battle. But he well understood that the French were very, very strong until the very end and they were commanded not by a sucker but by a brilliant commander. something like that

[1536]

Our poor archives, even those that are open, work in a strange way, not to mention the home-grown researchers who visit them.
And the truth is that part of them "died", fell ill, fell ill, yes, but part (the greater part) remained to stand as garrisons in Russian cities, for example, in Vilno, Minsk, Smolensk. Napoleon has always been a solid person. By the way, an interesting fact is that the Russian troops, leaving Moscow, walked across the bridge across the Moskva River, along which the Napoleonic army entered the city at the same time. Such was the agreement and the conditions for waging that war. (We will keep silent here about the atrocities of the French in the occupied territory).

[Doctor]

Our poor archives, even those that are open, work in a strange way, not to mention the home-grown researchers who visit them.
And the truth is

The archivists themselves note. For centuries, they take the same documents and then refer to each other.
And most of them have never been taken.

So is your truth, also one-sided. Logically speaking, going back, Napoleon had to remove the garrisons, and 500 thousand had to gather to the border.
This is an exaggeration.

[1536]

Napoleon would have been glad to "remove the garrisons", settle in "winter quarters", for example, in Minsk, but only after Napoleon's retreat from Moscow there was practically no one to remove. Due to the fighting in the occupied areas, the harvest was practically not carried out. The supplies of food and fodder stored up since the summer were eaten or plundered by the retreating detachments of the French army. For example, food supplies in Minsk brought from France itself were plundered by French soldiers who broke into the city, crazed with hunger, and one could forget about the rest in Minsk. Another factor that destroyed the French was the long distances that had to be covered on foot and the freezing weather that set in that year. And, of course, the heroic struggle of the Russian people against the impudent invaders has done its job. God saved Russia!
However, Russian troops also suffered from the "scorched earth". This is how the military writer Vladimir Ivanovich Levenshtern (contemporary of the events), major general of the Russian army, describes this disaster:
"Never before have human disasters manifested themselves in such a terrifying form. All the surrounding villages (on the approach to Vilna) were burned to the ground, the inhabitants fled, nowhere could we find food. Only one vodka supported our forces. We suffered no less than the enemy." Less than one third of the Russian army reached Vilna, which began the pursuit of Napoleon from Maloyaroslavets. (See: Tarle E.V. Napoleon's invasion of Russia. M., 1992). If the Russian army lost two-thirds of its strength in sick, frostbitten, killed, what were the losses of the French?
Thus, the French army perished on Russian soil from many factors, the main of which was Napoleon's adventurous desire to fight everywhere and always, and thereby achieve world domination for France. In the end, this "comrade" got what he deserved, faced with such a force that he could never defeat.
So what do our archives "hide" that we do not yet know?

[antivirus]

until they remember him.

-until Napoleun is reburied as a loser unworthy of veneration

[novel66]

Jonah??? you confused nothing ???

[antivirus]

everything flows and as in the USA it changes up to 180 degrees.
There is no flight of thought in you --- to de-sacralize the French (including the economy - Aerbasy, Leclerc, shipyards, milk, wine, cinema and dominoes) through the overthrow of Napoleun


and seize the markets of the Maghreb (the Russian Federation or who else is in advance in that case?)

and Auchan and Carrefour cost money. The cheaper the better

CAN YOU FREEZE IN EUROPE ON OUR CONDITIONS? rather, on your question, it is not for Russia to change this cap-Unmask France and the UN Security Council in favor of the Russian Federation and China.


everything written here has nothing real under it and is not and never will be in our thoughts. I promise

but all that is - to laugh at the deceased, how they mocked at our graves and now "the whole world" is mocking

[Pavel57]

After the losses in the Napoleon campaigns, the flower of the nation died and the French began to shrink.

[EvilLion]

Then they slapped ours in the Crimea, won against the Germans in WWI, it was France who was basically dragging there. In between, however, Prussia merged, and then merged again.

[Petrik66]

The Germans who fought the French in the First World War did not know that the French were getting smaller.

[bubalik]

At 10 o'clock in the morning, Kutuzov ordered Platov and Uvarov to sabotage the French left flank. Napoleon was forced to send 30 thousand people to his left flank. Kutuzov made Napoleon lose two of the most precious hours, and at 15 o'clock Kutuzov ordered the cavalry to return to their original position.

,,, however, Kutuzov expected more from this raid. One way or another, Uvarov and Platov turned out to be the only generals not presented by Kutuzov for awards for the Battle of Borodino.

[hohol95]

There is a myth.
Or is it not the myth that Platov's Cossacks captured French carts with church property exported from Moscow. And sent by Platov to the Don!
The property was not returned to Moscow ...

[Doctor]

There is a myth.
Or is it not the myth that Platov's Cossacks captured French carts with church property exported from Moscow. And sent by Platov to the Don!
The property was not returned to Moscow ...

At this point, Napoleon had not yet been in Moscow.

Here's a nice breakdown with eyewitness citation.

https://military.wikireading.ru/15110

[cost]

Uvarov and Platov were the only generals not presented by Kutuzov for awards for the Battle of Borodino

but they were later thanked by the emperor - "For the merits by the personal highest decree of October 29 (November 10), 1812, the ataman of the Don army, general of the cavalry Matvey Ivanovich Platov, was elevated, with his descending descendants, to the dignity of the count of the Russian Empire." And Fyodor Petrovich Uvarov received the rank of general from the cavalry and the Order of St. Vladimir 1st degree.

[Liam]

Quote: bubalik

however, Kutuzov expected more from this raid

Officer-Quartermaster A. N. Muravyov:

“On the old big Mozhaisk road, five regiments of the Don Cossacks were stationed under the command of Colonel Sysoev; the rest of the Don, under the command of Count Platov, made up a special corps, which during the battle crossed the Kolocha on our right flank and had to act behind enemy lines. To this flying detachment a light guards cavalry division was attached under the command of General Uvarov; but because of the bad orders and the drunken state of Count Platov, these troops, which could have been of great benefit, did nothing. Kutuzov refused Platov's command at the very time of the battle; the abilities of Uvarov, who remained the senior after Platov, are quite famous. He stationed his cavalry near a forest occupied by enemy infantry, and lost many people to no avail. Uvarov had the gift of choosing such places for an attack where the cavalry could not act, and his detachment <...> on the day of the Borodino battle did not serve anything».

[Viktor Sergeev]

The winner is determined by the outcome of the war. In this battle, there could be only two results:
1. Napoleon's victory: in the event of the defeat of the Russians and the destruction of the army.
2. Victory of Kutuzov: in any case, if item 1 did not happen.
The feast seems to have won everything, but in reality he lost.

[cost]

The feast seems to have won everything, but in reality he lost.

Do you mean his catchphrase - "one more such victory and I will be left without an army"?
Wake up not a little surprised, but one of the strongest opponents of the Roman King of Epirus and Macedonia, Pyrrhus, is in reality that rare commander who did not lose a single battle. Yes, and he died during the night assault on Argos, the tiles thrown from the roof by the defenders hit the joint of the armor on Pyrrhus's neck
According to Titus Livy, Hannibal considered Pyrrhus to be the second greatest general after Alexander the Great. According to Plutarch, Hannibal considered Pyrrhus to be the most outstanding among all commanders, he assigned second place to Scipio, and put himself in third place.
Pyrrhus was a second cousin and first cousin of Alexander the Great (Pyrrhus's father, Aeacidus - cousin and nephew of Olympias, Alexander's mother). According to Plutarch, many of Pyrrhus's contemporaries believed that Alexander the Great himself was reborn in his person.

[Viktor Sergeev]

He was the greatest, but as a result the Greeks fell. It is not winning the war that matters, but the ability to take advantage of the results. If victory in battle leads to defeat in war, then there was no victory.

[cost]

Pyrrhus fought with no one else, but with Carthage, and, as many here for some reason believe, the best army of that time, the Romans, and not just anywhere but in Carthage and in Italy itself
fig. Pyrrhus hikes in Italy

It got to the point that the Roman Senate was forced to offer Pyrrhus peace if he withdraws his troops from Italy
Titus Livy quotes a message from the Senate to Pyrrhus- "Let Pyrrhus leave Italy, and then, if he wants, we will negotiate friendship, and while he remains with the troops in Italy, the Romans will fight with him as long as they have enough strength, even if he turns a thousand more Levin consuls in flight. Rome will fight with him to the last Roman. "
Fig."Macedonian phalanx-saria of king Pyrrhus in battle" artist Giuseppe Rava

However, it was not this that forced Pyrrhus to leave the defeated Italy, but the fact that during the absence of Pyrrhus on the Balkan Peninsula, the son of Demetrius Antigonus II Gonatus, supported by Sparta, became the king of Macedonia. Pyrrhus decided to declare war on Antigonus and his allies. During which he died.

He was the greatest, but as a result the Greeks fell

Is Pyrrhus here, excuse me? Greece lost its independence as a result of the Fourth Macedonian War 150-148. BC e., and Pyrrhus died so not defeated by anyone back in 272. BC e.
monument to Pyrrhus, erected in the Greek city of Ioannina

Another sculptural image of the Epirus king in the city of Arta

[cost]

Coin of the Epirus kingdom during the reign of Pyrrhus, as evidenced by the inscription

[Kronos]

The Carthaginians did not have a better army, they were entirely mercenary - they had the best fleet.

[cost]

So I never wrote that the Carthaginian army was the best. Their fleet at that time was one of the best, here I completely agree with you. I wrote that many people here for some reason consider the Roman army of that time the best. Although it became so much later - only after the military reforms of Gaius Marius, who never hid that for the model of his "mules" he chose the techniques and methods of the Epirus Phalangists, refusing to the maximum of all unnecessary and burdensome. He changed the structure of the Roman legion. Previously, the legion was divided into 30 manimuls of 200 people each.
After the reforms of Guy Marius, a cohort uniting three maniples from three centuries became a structural unit of the legion, which became a fairly large and, most importantly, an independent maneuverable tactical unit. This structure is still used in armies around the world - regiment - battalion - company

[Kronos]

Well, why, after the 2 Punic War with the Romans, few could fight. The main thing about the Roman army was that they could lose battles, but still win the war.

[cost]

after the 2nd Punic War with the Romans, few could fight

The reforms of Mary were precisely caused by the shameful defeat of the legions of Aulus Postumus Albinus in Numidia at the beginning of 110 BC. BC - a hundred years after the 2nd Punic War. Then the king of Numidia Yoghurt forced every one of the capitulating legionnaires to pass under the yoke, and then exchanged them for Rome for rams. one to one. Moreover, for the ransom and conclude peace with Rome, he came to Rome personally without protection. As Rufinus Saturninus Tiberian writes - "Senate prince Marcus Aemilius Scavre called this visit another arrogant and impudent spit into the very heart of Rome"
The peace concluded by the Senate turned out to be fragile. and in 107 BC. e. Gaius Marius was sent to Numidia to wash away the shame

[Pane Kohanku]

The peace concluded by the Senate turned out to be fragile. and in 107 BC. e. Gaius Marius was sent to Numidia to wash away the shame

Dmitry, has he washed away the shame? And then reformed the army? What happened to Yoghurt?
Oh .. immediately images from Rome: Total War appear in my head ...

[cost]

did he wash away the shame?

How to say? Yoghurt was betrayed by his father-in-law and lured into a trap set up by Sulla. He was executed in Rome. Metellus began to ascribe to himself all the laurels. if my memory serves me Metellus and Sulla even spent their own triumphs, forgetting about the commander. And Marius and his nephew Quintus Sertorius Tactic simply spat on all this division of laurels and started reorganizing the army and concentrated on the German direction.

[Pane Kohanku]

And Marius and his nephew Quintus Sertorius Tactic simply spat on all this division of laurels and started reorganizing the army and concentrated on the German direction.

You have to write. Please with your detailed comments under today's articles. Respectfully, Thank you!

[Engineer]

Reforms Maria "is a collective term. Far from all this, Mary was related
Metellus, Mariy and Sulla dragged the war with Yugurta on old luggage.
The very organizational actions of Mary were caused by preparations for a war with the Germans. Plutarch writes about this quite clearly.
The Teutons and Cimbri in 105 gave Rome a second Cannes under Arausion. In 104, Marius became consul. Only then did he have enough power to conduct change.

[cost]

Great addition, Denis

[Engineer]

Please
Where is the cabin?)
Well, okay, maybe it's for the best)

[Liam]

Maria's reforms were driven by social causes, not military ones

[Engineer]

Caused by social
But the need to solve them here and now was military

[Liam]

The Roman army from the 6th century BC to the time of Mary was recruited according to the class principle based on the property qualification. And the roles in the legions (not only command but also ordinary legionnaires) were also distributed on this basis. Poor people in the army, except in exceptional cases like the defeat from Hannibal, By the time of Mary, the army already had great difficulties with the recruitment of soldiers (despite the constant lowering of the property qualification threshold), because the power of Rome and the economic well-being of citizens grew and they were not already recruited into the army. Reforms Mary is a decision to massively call on broad layers of propertyless plebeians, they are -proletariatIn this regard, it was necessary to reorganize the internal structure of the legions, although not as radically as it seems. For example, the transition from maniples to cohorts is the idea and experience of Scipio Africanus 100 years before Mary

[Engineer]

Wonderful,
Only I know that. I do not agree with everything and I see you have a contradiction

By the time of Mary, the army was already having great difficulties with set soldiers (despite the constant decrease in the property qualification threshold), because the power of Rome and the economic well-being of citizens grew and they did not hired already in the army. Lazy shorter... Reforms Mary is a decision to massively call on broad layers of propertyless plebeians, they are also proletarii.

The economic well-being of citizens as a whole did not grow stratification. The Punic War undermined agriculture, and the continuous wars that followed caused an influx of slaves that finally destroyed the competitiveness of small peasant farms and caused them massive ruin. Not lazy. They slid down the social ladder, lost their property, got into debt, ceased to be subject to qualifications and, therefore, dropped out of the recruiting system.
Marius again opened the way for them to join the army. After the service, the veterans were promised allotments and slaves - something they no longer had
There was definitely no direct radical.

In any case, this does not in any way contradict what I have stated above.
Reform Maria is, among other things, an attempt to relieve social tension and, most importantly, to provide a recruiting base before a fight with an enemy of the level of the new Hannibal

[Liam]

Quote: Engineer

The economic well-being of citizens as a whole did not grow

Let's leave this aside so as not to be distracted by the economy of Rome. Somehow we will discuss this. The fact is that after the defeat of Carthage, Rome became the dominant of the Mediterranean and the economic power and well-being of citizens only grew.
As for Maria's reforms from a purely military point of view, they were not particularly successful and, apart from the dubious honor of the title of "Maria mules", they did not give anything else to the Romans. Already after several decades, Caesar had to seriously reform the Maria system because it did not correspond to the spirit of the times and were difficulties in the war with the scattered tribes of Gauls, not to mention rivals of the level of Hannibal. By the way, Rome has not had such rivals for several centuries, so there is no need to endow Mary with excessive foresight. The real and this reform of the legions for centuries, after which they became what we are used to knowing, was carried out by Octavian.

[Engineer]

Reform Mary could not be complete for many reasons
You didn't need to have any special insight
The enemy was at the gate and new Cannes had ALREADY happened.

[Liam]

What are these?)
Regarding the removal of social tension by conscription ...
In order not to look for numbers under Mary. In just 100 years under Octavian, there were 4.000.000 Roman citizens. The army consisted of 28 legions (140.000 people). After Teuteburg-25 (125.000). The annual rotation of legionnaires -12.000 people.
Do you think that conscription of 12.000 people with a population of 4 million will remove something?

[Engineer]

What are these?)

Arauzion
But the proletarians who were accepted into the army under Mary were concentrated precisely in Rome. Agree this radically changes the matter

[Liam]

Quote: Engineer

Arauzion

Leaving aside the veracity of the numbers and losses in this battle (as well as at Cannes), the defeats of the Romans in the initial phases of that war were not associated with the number of troops or the structure of the legions, but with the crisis of the republican system of Rome, which was good while Rome was a city-state and part of the peninsula, but was completely ineffective when Rome expanded and became in fact an empire. Annual leapfrog with consuls, who were rarely military people, their rivalry, lack of a single command, etc., etc. The Romans began to solve their military problems when they essentially began to rule dictators elected by consuls for many years in a row and endowed with extraordinary powers that were much more important than the mules Maria

[Engineer]

The staffing problem was always and everywhere.
Marius defeated the Germans not because he was elected consul for several years in a row, but because he had talent. At the same time, the absence of one-man command under Aqua Sextius (Catulus was the second consul, who commanded the center) did not prevent the Romans. Under Arausion, the one-man rule was formally (the consul is older than the proconsul), but a disaster struck. In the place of Mary, there could well have been a new Guy Flaminius or Var, but Guy Marius turned out to be.
Again. Marius replenished the army of the proles, strengthened discipline, modified the pilum according to Plutarch. The military aspect of the changes is clear.

[Liam]

Quote: Engineer

Reform Mary could not be complete for many reasons

The system before Mary lasted 300 years without much change, the system after Mary (Reform of Octavian) is also about 300 years.
Maria's system was changed after 50 years.
Objectively, she was unsuccessful

[Engineer]

I will call it a milestone.
A complete transition to a professional army was then impossible, including because of the opposition of republican institutions. You can recall the conflict between the Senate and Caesar due to too long command of the legions that have lost contact with Rome. This resulted in a civil war. Under Mary, the institutions were stronger, and he received full power only in the last six months of his life and was physically unable to complete the reform in any case.

[Kronos]

There the shame was in something else - Yogurta simply bribed the military leaders from which the war with him went like that.

[cost]

There is such a version. But to me personally, it seems untenable. Yes. Aulus Postumus Albinus was accused of receiving money from Yoghurt and expelled from Rome without a hearing, but this was a standard Senate charge. Think of the Roman civil wars after the death of Mary.
For example, Sulla's message to Gney Pompey: -

Neither I nor the Senate understand how one battered legion of Quintus Sertorius is driving six consular legions across Spain. If you do not know how to act with your head and sword - act with gold. there will be no results - you will get "crimina corruptionem"

So short and clear, there will be no results - you will go to court for a bribe. And no one will figure out whether there was a bribe or not

[Kronos]

You may be right, but corruption in Rome was an important part of the country's political life.

[Beringovsky]

You know how to win, Pyrrhus, but you cannot enjoy the fruits of victory! It seems so he was told by one of the confidants.

[cost]

You know the history perfectly well, but here your memory did not disappoint you much
These words belong to Magarbal, they have nothing to do with Pyrrhus.
Magarbal was the commander of the cavalry, first of Hamilcar, and then of Hannibal in the First and Second Punic Wars, and in the Battle of Cannes he commanded the right flank of the Carthaginian army. He told Hannibal after Cannes the famous bitter words: "Vincere scis, victoria uti nescis" "You know how to win, but you do not know how to use victory."

[Kronos]

Well, Hanibal could do little, there was no strength to take Rome, the reinforcements were bad, the Romans were not going to surrender

[cost]

And Hannibal had no intention of taking Rome. The sieges of cities were then generally an extremely difficult and long business. Judge for yourself, Hannibal was able to capture the small city of Sagunta after an 8-month siege, he could not take Naples at all, and Tarentum was able to capture only after the gates were opened to him from the inside, and even then the city fortress remained in the hands of the Roman garrison.
I personally see that the most realistic way to capture the city was suggested to Hannibal by the chief of the cavalry, Magarbal. He suggested immediately after the Battle of Cannes to send him towards Rome with horsemen in order to make the most of the factor of surprise, disorganization of the demoralized enemy, in order to break into Rome "on his shoulders" through the open gates.
Hannibal replied that he needed time to consider the advice. Magarbal's answer was remembered by contemporaries and went down in history: "Not everything, of course, is given by the gods to one person. You know how to win, Hannibal; you do not know how to use victory."

[Engineer]

According to Plutarch, Antigonus (king of Macedonia, son of Demetrius) compared Pyrrhus to a dice player who knows how to throw successfully, but does not know what to do with the win

[cost]

Thank you, Denis. Did not know.

[Engineer]

Favorite childhood book and favorite hero. Therefore, I remembered many things almost literally)

[Viktor Sergeev]

What does Pyrrhus have to do with it? Yes, despite the fact that without destroying Rome, the Greeks took a step towards their complete defeat, well, purely one to one with Napoleon.

[Niel-le-Calais]

Quote: Rich

Scipio was assigned second place

Younger or older?

[cost]

Naturally - Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus the Elder
Hannibal died in 183 BC. e. when Scipio the Younger was only 2 years old
(years of life - 185-129 BC)

[Krasnoyarsk]

= Kutuzov and his staff thought, = = Napoleon, not having accurate information about the size of the Russian army, thought that it was about 130 thousand people. =
I admire the author - he can read the thoughts of not only individual people (Kutuzov and Bonaparte), but also the whole staff.
Enlighten, what is Putin thinking now? Or can you only read the minds of the dead?

[ccsr]

Author:
Artem Lavrentiev

Kutuzov and his staff thought that Napoleon had about 180 thousand men and 1 thousand guns with him.

Generally, commanders of this level use intelligence data when assessing enemy forces, rather than relying on inferences, even if they come from headquarters officers.
Maybe you have data where these numbers came from, because the dispute about the number of troops at the beginning of the battle is still ongoing.

On September 2-3, Napoleon ordered a roll call, so we know a fairly accurate number of French troops: 135 thousand people with 587 guns.

As you know, the battle took place on August 26 (on September 7) In 1812 near the village of Borodino, 125 km west of Moscow.
Are you sure that 4-5 days before the battle, the number of Napoleon's troops did not increase due to the approach of additional forces, information about which was obtained by intelligence and taken into account by Kutuzov.

[Doctor]

Generally, commanders of this level use intelligence data when assessing enemy forces, rather than relying on inferences, even if they come from headquarters officers.

Napoleon delivered everything at the highest level.

During the Erfurt Congress, he ordered a troupe of the best dramatic actors from Paris and one of the actresses, Marie-Thérèse-Etienette Bourgoen, really liked Alexander I.

At the direction of Bonaparte, Burgoen went to the Russian Empire, and for two years, from 1809 to 1811, she was the mistress of the Russian Tsar, and then returned to France.

[Beringovsky]

Quote: Arzt

Generally, commanders of this level use intelligence data when assessing enemy forces, rather than relying on inferences, even if they come from headquarters officers.

Napoleon delivered everything at the highest level.

Well, so and at the highest
Although...
Only a man of genius could come to Russia with an army of 600 thousand and return back with a handful of half-frozen ragamuffins. This is the level, I agree

[Petr Vladimirovich]

The sunset of the invincible Bonaparte began here ...

[Desperado]

Quote: Petr Vladimirovich

The sunset of the invincible Bonaparte began here ...

However, the 1813 campaign suggests otherwise ...

[novel66]

the battle for Maloyaroslavets decided the outcome of the company

[Doctor]

History does not tolerate the subjunctive mood.
But I wonder where Napoleon would have gone if Suvorov had been alive ...

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Arzt

But I wonder where Napoleon would have gone if Suvorov had been alive ...

Hinting that Suvorov would have pecked Napoleon at the border?
"Yes, you are right, but the opposite is also possible." What he allowed himself with the Turks, he hardly allowed himself with the French, for he divided the troops into regular and basurman.
And he approached the battles with them in different ways.

[Doctor]

Hinting that Suvorov would have pecked Napoleon at the border? feel
"Yes, you are right, but the opposite is also possible." request What he allowed himself with the Turks, he would hardly have allowed himself with the French, for he divided the troops into regular and basurman.

I agree. After all, he also managed to fight the French. And it's ambiguous. And he knew that these were not Turks.
However, I think I would have overcome the adversary. And Moscow would not have passed.
Still, he is a cut above Kutuzov and the others.

[Desperado]

Quote: Arzt

This battle (and the whole war) will be discussed as long as it is remembered.

At the same time, such an obvious fact is forgotten: 610 thousand French crossed the border of Russia, and 130-180 thousand reached Borodino. That is, 425-480 thousand were killed in "battles of local importance."

Once again, it shows poor knowledge of the war of 1812, they forgot about the left and right flank of the Great Army. The Macdonald, Schwarzenberg and Rainier corps operated separately from the main forces. Do not forget about the abandoned garrisons in the captured cities.

[Doctor]

Once again, it shows poor knowledge of the war of 1812, they forgot about the left and right flank of the Great Army. The Macdonald, Schwarzenberg and Rainier corps operated separately from the main forces. Do not forget about the abandoned garrisons in the captured cities.

Why did not Alexander I lead the army? At least formally.

[Senior seaman]

Quote: Arzt

Why did not Alexander I lead the army? At least formally.

Austerlitz.
In general, from that battle, the presence of the emperor in the army was considered a bad omen.

[Beringovsky]

MacDonald, Schwarzenberg and Rainier are 120-140 thousand. Where are the other 340 thousand?
And what is it here that some are so pressing on "communications"? Maybe they think that Napoleon was going to supply the army with supplies from Poland (and maybe even from France)? On carts ... There was no railroad at that time, actually, maybe someone doesn't know?

[Desperado]

Quote: novel xnumx

the battle for Maloyaroslavets decided the outcome of the company

No, the battle of Krasnoye is considered the turning point of the campaign.

[basal]

In my opinion, Napoleon initially lost by invading Russia. He could win as many battles as he wanted, but strategically got nothing. This was the case in Spain before. No matter how successfully the French fought, but mountain climbing is not their strong point. An army of any size was lost in the Russian expanses, which, in fact, happened. There are two options: either to keep the fist of the main forces and, subsequently, devour their own horses, or to spray forces to protect communications. This and that, the result is the same. In general, it is not clear what Napoleon was counting on when he moved with the main forces to Moscow, in fact, imitating an attack on St. Petersburg. He took Moscow. Farther? To Kazan? Or just beyond the Urals?

[Doctor]

In general, it is not clear what Napoleon was counting on when he moved with the main forces to Moscow, in fact, imitating an attack on St. Petersburg. He took Moscow. Farther? To Kazan? Or just beyond the Urals?

He ran into asymmetric war. The enemy's actions were illogical all the time.

Napoleon hoped to defeat the Russian army in the general border battle and further persuade them to peace and joint actions against England, including India.

But it all went wrong. I had to improvise.

[north 2]

in my opinion, even a commander, who should be alien to sentimentality in war, leaving
Moscow should either go crazy, or be confident in the strength of the spirit of its retreating armies, its people, in the correctness of its country, which gives strength to believe that the aggressor must ultimately lose the war and gives the strength not to go crazy leaving the city holy to all Russians Moscow to the enemy. After all, the commander is only just a man ...
The victory in the war of 1812 is not deservedly forgotten. The Romanovs underestimated her, they had no time for that, because after
thirteen years they have already received the Decembrist uprising. Then we got Herzen, then the Polish
uprising. And off we go. But even before the time of Nicholas II, the entire elite tried to speak
not in Russian, but in French. Although the barbarians who used this language not long ago in
Stables were set up in the churches of the Moscow Kremlin and Moscow was burned ...
Then, under the communists, they generally tried to remember the great commanders of the Russian Empire as rarely as possible. Probably, God helps Russia, God helped both the Russian army and Kutuzov. But the communists turned the great Kazan Cathedral where the savior of Russia Kutuzov sleeps in eternal sleep, turned into a museum
atheism, as if laughing and mocking at the labors of God to save Russia ...
The longer I live, the longer I believe in Tyutchev's immortal words, that ... the mind cannot understand Russia ... Between
by the way, just because of this I love Russia more and more ...

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: north 2

The victory in the war of 1812 is not deservedly forgotten. The Romanovs underestimated her

Exactly. Therefore, they declared it the Patriotic War.

1. "Patriotic War and Russian Society" (OVIRO) is an encyclopedic publication in seven volumes on the history of the Patriotic War of 1812, published in 1911 for the centenary of the events of 1812 by the ID Sytin partnership in Moscow.
2. Moscow Triumphal Gates (Arc de Triomphe) is a triumphal arch in Moscow. They were first built in 1829-1834 according to the project of the architect OI Bove on Tverskaya Zastava Square in honor of the victory of the Russian people in the Patriotic War of 1812.
3. The panorama of the Battle of Borodino was painted in 1911-1912 by the artist Franz Roubaud, for whom it became the third battle panoramic painting.

Quote: North 2

The longer I live, the longer I believe in Tyutchev's immortal words that ... the mind cannot understand Russia ...

Precisely, to understand Russia, you also need to have a heart. Where can the West get it? They all sold.

Quote: north 2

by the way, just because of this I love Russia more and more ...

You're lying, but you can't lie.

Then, under the communists, they generally tried to remember the great commanders of the Russian Empire as rarely as possible.

Therefore, the films were shot by Suvorov, Kutuzov, Ushakov, Nakhimov. And they introduced orders with their names.

[Operator]

The Russian army in 1812 acted strictly according to a plan drawn up a year earlier by the Minister of War of the Russian Empire Barclay de Toli - a strategic retreat into the interior of the country with exhaustion of the enemy in numerous battles without the possibility of being drawn into a general engagement with the united army of Europe, as well as with stretching of communications enemy for the opportunity to organize a guerrilla war (modeled on the Spanish guerrilla) in his rear.

It was within the framework of this plan that Moscow was surrendered (a city without large industry and transport - water transport at that time) without a general battle the day after the Battle of Borodino. During the Patriotic War of 1941, Moscow did not surrender due to its industrial and transport importance.

The tactical victory of the European army was associated exclusively with the skillful maneuver of its artillery on the battlefield - the Europeans knocked the Russians out of the field fortifications only after the concentration of guns in the next section, the remote destruction of the fortifications and losses among the defenders of the fortifications. In a bayonet battle, the Europeans, without the support of artillery, each time surrendered the newly captured fortifications to the Russian reserves. After that, the European artillery entered the business and everything was repeated anew.

The command of the Russian army at that time did not know how to maneuver its artillery on the battlefield and used it only permanently.

During the retreat from Moscow, the European artillery did not have a sufficient amount of ammunition and horse traction (a consequence of the partisan war), so the European army lost one battle after another.

[Glory1974]

So we can say that Napoleon won a tactical victory, and Kutuzov won a strategic one.

I do not agree with the author's conclusion.
Time put everything in its place, and when the shots died down on the Borodino field, Napoleon said: "The French fought like lions, and deserved the right to be victorious. But the Russians fought no worse, and deserved the right to be undefeated." In his own words, he recognized a draw at Borodino.
After the death of Napoleon, on a triumphal arch in his honor in Paris, all battles where Napoleon won are listed. But the battle of Borodino is not there!
Yes, there is the name "Moscow", but this is a list of cities captured by Napoleon.
Therefore, there is no need to pull the owl over the globe. Napoleon himself and French historians do not believe that they won the Battle of Borodino.

[Desperado]

Quote: glory1974

So we can say that Napoleon won a tactical victory, and Kutuzov won a strategic one.

I do not agree with the author's conclusion.
Time put everything in its place, and when the shots died down on the Borodino field, Napoleon said: "The French fought like lions, and deserved the right to be victorious. But the Russians fought no worse, and deserved the right to be undefeated." In his own words, he recognized a draw at Borodino.
After the death of Napoleon, on a triumphal arch in his honor in Paris, all battles where Napoleon won are listed. But the battle of Borodino is not there!
Yes, there is the name "Moscow", but this is a list of cities captured by Napoleon.
Therefore, there is no need to pull the owl over the globe. Napoleon himself and French historians do not believe that they won the Battle of Borodino.

Bravo, you are good at misrepresenting facts, but why? The French have no concept of "Battle of Borodino" is "Bataille de la moskova" literally "Battle of Moscow". On the Arc de Triomphe, the victories of the French army are indicated, or rather the cities near which these battles took place, Ulm, Austerlitz, Wagram, Moscow ...

[Vladislav 73]

Bennigsen assessed it as follows: "This was the greatest mistake that could have been made by acting against Napoleon, whose system is known and against which, therefore, measures can be taken, as I showed in the war of 1806-1807."

Especially "amused" this statement from L.L Bennigsen. Well, yes, well, yes, he did, especially in 1807. near Friedland! "Pot calls the kettle black"....

[1536]

Quote: Pavel57

After the losses in the Napoleon campaigns, the flower of the nation died and the French began to shrink.

By the way, the Guard of Napoleon was withdrawn from Russia almost in full force. And this is the color of the French army and nation, apparently not at all "small" people. In addition, the invasion of Russia for a long time was called the invasion of "twelve languages", therefore, in the vastness of Russia, not only the French from the 600-strong army died en masse, but representatives of all the same peoples that in our time act as " tail". And if we say after which luck turned away from France, which eventually led her to the current European Union, then this is the Great French Revolution of 1789-1799, as a result of which Napoleon Bonaparte came to power, who rose to the rank of general, until then unknown to anyone " a guest worker from Corsica "who plunged the country into continuous wars for more than 15 years.

[Desperado]

Quote: 1536

And if we say after which luck turned away from France, which eventually led her to the current European Union, then this is the Great French Revolution of 1789-1799, as a result of which Napoleon Bonaparte came to power, who rose to the rank of general, until then unknown to anyone " a guest worker from Corsica "who plunged the country into continuous wars for more than 15 years.

You have bad knowledge of history, read about the reasons for the outbreak of the war of the 1st coalition. About Napoleon, who "plunged the country into wars" is generally strong. The main reasons for the outbreak of the coalition wars were attempts to restore the monarchy in France by Austria and Prussia, and later by other monarchies in Europe.