Battle of Borodino: numbers and numbers again

Louis Lejeune (1775-1848). "Battle of Borodino. The Battle of the Moskva River on September 7, 1812 ". In the foreground, center, General Lariboisiere (gray-haired) mourns the death of his son, a carabinieri officer. To the left and above Marshal Murat (in an old Polish costume) with his headquarters. The painting was painted in 1822 Palace of Versailles

You will not see such battles ...
M. Yu. Lermontov. Borodino

Documents and story. Of course, it is desirable that the date on the calendar is different now. Let's say 2022. Then we would have had the 210th anniversary of the Battle of Borodino, and any round date in our country is a very special thing in terms of information. But what is not, that is not. But September 8 is the Day of Russian Military Glory (although it would be more correct to establish it on the 7th). There is also a great interest in the battle, and it is not waning, as evidenced by the comments of the activists of "VO" in the articles on arms war of 1812. Weapons! And then what can we say about the war itself or the same Borodino battle? But what do we know about it if the theory of nuclear war from 1780 to 1816 is in vogue now, into which the Battle of Borodino simply does not fit. However, let's begin our acquaintance with this event, seemingly known to all of us. Who in school did not memorize "Borodino" by M. Yu. Lermontov? .. Let's start with what usually any research begins with historiography: who, what and when has already written about this event and how exactly the views of one historian differ from views of the other. And God bless them, with views. Let's take a look at the numbers, which are usually never taken out of the head, but are always based on some kind of documents.

Well, this time the photocopies of pages from the popular Russian magazine "Niva" for 1912 will serve as the design for this material of ours. I am sure that few VO readers have ever seen this magazine or held it in their hands. Meanwhile, this is a very, very interesting source of our knowledge about the past, both textual and illustrative, since many photographs have been placed in it since the end of the 1898th century, and, of course, there were a lot of drawings and engravings in it too. As a child, I just loved looking at the stitched binders of this magazine, which were collected in our old wooden house from 1917 to XNUMX! Now, alas, they have been gone for a long time (as a student, I dragged all of them to the Bukinist store), but the library of the Penza Regional Museum of Local Lore is now at my service, so the loss turned out, in general, not so great.

Cover of the jubilee magazine "Niva" for 1912

Well, now let's think about what issue related to the history of the Battle of Borodino is the most controversial up to the present time? The question of the number of participants in the battle and the losses incurred by the parties! In the Soviet historiography of the 1950s, data on the ratio of the types of troops on the eve of the battle were as follows:

French / Russians
Infantry: 86 / 000
Regular Cavalry: 28 / 000
Cossacks: - / 7000
Gunners: 16 / 000
Militia: - / 10
Cannons: 587/640
Total: 130 / 000

(Source: V. V. Pruntsov. Borodino battle. Popular essay. Military publishing house of the Ministry of the armed forces of the Soviet Union. M., 1947.)

In 1912, three Niva magazines published a large article detailing the events of a century ago. This is its beginning. Yes, that was the way it was written at that time. Such is the "calm". But isn't it a wonderful phrase to be found at the bottom right? We read: “… among them were small people, inclined to intrigue, to pettiness, there were people who were stupid, narrow-minded. But the general heroic character lies with them too! " How correctly noted, isn't it? And is it not possible to say all the same about the personalities of the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945? You can, of course. But only for a long time it was impossible ... I wonder what will be said about them in 2045, when time itself will quench passions ...

However, has this data always and everywhere been and is used? Well, anyone can look into Wikipedia today, libraries still keep the "Soviet Military Encyclopedia" in 8 volumes, so it's easy to check these numbers. But are there others and to whom, I wonder, do they belong? Let's look at both the numbers themselves and the personalities of those who named them, as well as the works that they devoted to the theme of the war of 1812. Let's start from the very beginning, that is, with eyewitnesses and direct participants in those heroic events.

1. Dmitry Petrovich Buturlin (1790-1849), Russian military historian, major general from cavalry, actual privy councilor, senator, author of “History of the invasion of the emperor Napoleon in Russia in 1812. Part 1. SPb .: in military type., 1837 + 415 p., Appendices; Part 9. SPb .: in military type., 2 p. In his opinion, the numbers of those participating in the battle were as follows: the French - 1838 thousand, the Russians - 418 thousand. Year of judgment: 190.

And here the author reflects on the reasons that prompted Napoleon to attack Russia ...

2. Philippe-Paul de Segur (1780-1873), French brigadier general from the entourage of Napoleon. Author of the book “A Trip to Russia. Notes of the Adjutant of Emperor Napoleon I ", Smolensk: Rusich, 2003. He believed that the French were 130 thousand, Russians - 120 thousand. Year: 1824.

3. Georges de Chambray (1783-1848), marquis, French general of artillery. He left a work on the history of the Napoleonic wars, based on a huge amount of materials from French archives. He has 133 thousand Frenchmen, 130 thousand Russians. The year of publication of these figures is 1825.

Another interesting passage about the events of those distant years. But it is not written that Napoleon's plans were revealed by Russian intelligence, that the Emperor Alexander knew about the intention to defeat the Russian army in a border battle and even about the number of troops he led. Everything was known to him, and to the unfortunate Barclay, and Kutuzov. But they did not dare to say this out loud even after a hundred years. What a war that was won thanks to ... spies!

4. Karl Philip Gottlieb von Clausewitz (1780-1831), Prussian military leader, military theorist and historian. In 1812-1814 he served in the Russian army. The author of the essay "1812". Moscow: State publishing house of the USSR People's Commissariat of Defense, 1937; reprint: 2004. He has 130 thousand French, 120 thousand Russians. 30s of the XIX century.

5. Alexander Ivanovich Mikhailovsky-Danilevsky (1789-1848), lieutenant general, senator, Russian military writer, historian, author of the first official history of the Patriotic War of 1812, written in four volumes on the personal assignment of Emperor Nicholas I, and published in 1839 ... In his books, the French at Borodino - 160 thousand, Russians - 128 thousand.

An excellent illustrative material for the theme of the war of 1812 in the "Niva" magazine was the graphics of the artist N. Samokish

6. Modest Ivanovich Bogdanovich (1805-1882), Russian military historian; lieutenant general, member of the Military Council of the Russian Empire, author of the work "History of the Patriotic War of 1812" in 3 volumes - SPb .: Type. trading house S. Strugovshchik, G. Pokhitonov, N. Vodov and Co., 1859-1860. French - 130 thousand, Russians - 120 thousand.Year 1859.

7. Jean-Baptiste Antoine Marcelin Marbeau (1782-1854), French general and military writer, author of memoirs about the Napoleonic wars "Memoirs of General Baron de Marbeau" / Per. with French M .: Eksmo, 2005. He has 140 thousand French, but 160 thousand Russians. Year 1860.

8. Evgeny Viktorovich Tarle (1874-1955), Russian and Soviet historian, academician of the USSR Academy of Sciences (1927), author of the well-known works "Napoleon" and "Napoleon's Invasion of Russia." Its numbers are 130 and 127,8. The year they were named is 1962.

We read "Niva" further ...

9. Nikolai Alekseevich Troitsky (1931, Saratov), ​​Soviet and Russian historian, an expert on the problems of the revolutionary movement in the 1812th century and the history of the Patriotic War of 1971. Doctor of Historical Sciences (1812), professor, author of several works on the history of the war of 134. His figures are as follows: the French - 154,8 thousand, the Russians - 1988 thousand. Year - XNUMX.

10. Digby Smith (1935), British military historian, specialist in the history of the Napoleonic wars and the history of uniforms, author of many interesting works, among them: “An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Uniforms of the Napoleonic Wars: An Expert, in-Depth Reference to the Officers and Soldiers of the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Period ", 1792-1815 (" Illustrated Encyclopedia of Uniforms of the Napoleonic Wars 1792-1815 "). Illustrated encyclopaedia. London: Lorenz, 2006. It has 130 and 120,8. Year 1998.

11. Vladimir Nikolaevich Zemtsov (1960), Soviet and Russian historian, Doctor of Historical Sciences (2002), Professor (2010), Head of the Department of General History of the Faculty of History of the Ural State Pedagogical University (since 2005). Member of the dissertation councils on history at the UrFU and the Institute of History and Culture of the Ural Branch of the RAS He defended his doctoral dissertation on the Battle of Borodino: “The Great Army of Napoleon in the Battle of Borodino: dissertation ... Doctor of Historical Sciences. - Yekaterinburg, 2002 .-- 571 p. Author of the book: "The Great Army of Napoleon in the Battle of Borodino." M .: Yauza; Anchor; Eksmo, 2018. His data: French - 127 thousand, Russians - 154 thousand. Year 1999.

12. Viktor Mikhailovich Bezotosny (1954), Soviet and Russian historian, specialist in the field of military history of Russia, the history of the Napoleonic wars and the history of the Cossacks. Doctor of Historical Sciences. Head of the exposition department of the State Historical Museum. Defended dissertation: "French and Russian intelligence and plans of the parties in 1812" (dissertation of the candidate of historical sciences: 07.00.02), M., 1987, and "Russia in the Napoleonic wars of 1805-1815." (dissertation of Doctor of Historical Sciences: 07.00.02), M., 2013. Its figures: the French - 135 thousand, the Russians - 150 thousand. Year 2004.

Robert Alexander Hillingford (1828-1904). "Napoleon at Borodino" (private collection)

So, all the numbers are different, although the sources for all are approximately the same.

For example, General Tol reports on the number of Russian troops in his memoirs: 95 thousand regular troops, 7 thousand Cossacks and 10 thousand militia warriors and "with this army 640 artillery pieces."

Two very interesting photos from the battle scene. They clearly show why the revolution in Russia had to take place without fail. “It's in the yard” in 1912, and the peasant is plowing with a plow ... Such an economic “platform” of the state, well, simply did not work, it had to be changed. And along with the basis, of course, the superstructure had to change ...

The number of the French is known from the roll call held on August 21 (September 2) in Gzhatsk. According to her data, there were 133 815 combat ranks of the French (but there were also lagging soldiers, and their comrades responded for them in the hope that they would catch up with the army). But this did not include 1500 horsemen of General Pajol, who came later, and 3 thousand combat ranks who were at Napoleon's headquarters. Although it is unlikely that they took part in the battle at all ...

Another memorable photo from "Niva"

As for the French historiography of the Battle of Borodino, it would be most correct to start with Napoleon himself. In the 18th Bulletin of the Great Army of September 10, which was compiled with his undoubted participation, Napoleon presented the "Battle of the Moscow River" as a decisive victory over the Russian army. It was written there that by 8 o'clock in the morning the enemy was shot down from all his positions, tried to return them, but unsuccessfully; and that by two o'clock in the afternoon this battle was actually over. The same 18th bulletin of the Great Army says about 12-13 thousand killed, 5 thousand prisoners, 40 generals, wounded, killed or taken prisoner, and 60 guns captured by the French. But F. Segur, an officer who was directly at Napoleon's headquarters, reports the following about the trophies: prisoners from 700 to 800 people and about 20 guns. The losses of the Russians were said to be 40-50 thousand people, the losses of the French - 10 thousand. Approximately the same figures were given by Napoleon in a letter dated September 9 to the Austrian emperor Franz I. But the day before, in a letter to Empress Marie-Louise, for some reason he wrote about 30 thousand losses among the Russians, and about his own he wrote: "I had many killed and wounded." It is interesting that in all these three documents the strength of the Russian army was estimated by Napoleon at 120-130 thousand people, no more. But only five years passed, and in 1817 the same Napoleon began to assert something completely different: "With an 80-strong army, I rushed to the Russians, consisting of 250000, armed to the teeth, and defeated them ..."

The battle between the Russians and the French. N. Samokish

So the expression "lying as an eyewitness" did not arise from scratch, it is clear. Although, on the other hand, there are many such eyewitnesses who had nothing to embellish, and in their memoirs they wrote down what is. For example, that very few trophies were taken by the French was evidenced by an important eyewitness - Napoleon's adjutant Armand Colencourt, who recorded that the emperor repeated many times that he could not understand how the redoubts and positions that were captured with such courage "gave we have only a small number of prisoners. " Many times he asked the officers who had arrived with reports where the prisoners were to be taken. He even sent to the appropriate points to make sure that no other prisoners had been taken. These successes without prisoners, without trophies did not satisfy him ...

"The enemy carried off the overwhelming majority of his wounded, and we got only those prisoners of whom I already spoke, 12 guns of the redoubt ... and three or four others taken during the first attacks."

But can we still find out some exact figures regarding the Battle of Borodino? Yes, we can, but more on that in the next article.

To be continued ...

Comments

[Mavrikiy]

Battle of Borodino: numbers and numbers again

But can we still find out some exact figures regarding the Battle of Borodino? Yes, we can, but more on that in the next article. Hmm. "This is how you study, you study and bam - the second shift" (Big break)

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Respect and respect to Vyacheslav Olegovich for taking aim at the most difficult topic!
I myself personally trust the classics. 130 thousand people under the banners of the army of twelve languages ​​against 120 thousand - Russian!
Regards, Vlad!

[ee2100]

You are some kind of late today and by duty praise

[Varyag_0711]

ee2100 (Alexander)
You are some kind of late today and by duty praise

Yes, yes, all his comments boil down to "thanks, it was very interesting to read" ... Why write this?

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Varyag_0711

Yes, yes, all his comments boil down to "thanks, it was very interesting to read" ... Why write this?

From feelings-s (The marriage of Balzaminov)

[antivirus]

thanks a little? Will 3 rubles be enough?

[ee2100]

"Why why?" Served!

[Astra wild]

Quote: ee2100

"Why why?" Served!

And this is not polite and not logical: they listen when there is a benefit. And what is the benefit of Vyacheslav Olegovich: read it earlier? But he will read it before. To order to become, but Vyacheslav Olegovich reminds me of a cat from Kipling's fairy tale: “I go where I want” you say: 'I write about what I want. ”I already asked Vyacheslav Olegovich: not to write about the Soviet period, and if he writes, then not to focus on the dark places of our stories, but he said that he writes as he wants and what he wants.
So it makes no sense to curry favor

[ee2100]

I answered the Varyag's question, "why?" Why, after reading the article of certain authors, he hurries to praise "on duty", as it is today.
Because the site is called "Military Review" it is logical to assume that this character is currying favor!
All the same, Vyacheslav is one of the main "hummingbirds"

[Astra wild]

In this case, I also "curry favor", I like the works: Vyacheslav Olegovich, Valery and Andrey from Chelyabinsk, and Vlad just thanks these authors.
If you have comments on the content, you tell me what exactly

[ee2100]

I hoped that the word "irony" is not foreign to you, sorry that I was mistaken!

[lucul]

Yes, yes, all his comments boil down to "thanks, it was very interesting to read" ... laughing Why write this?

Mmmmm .... Maybe this is the usual politeness of a well-bred person? )))

[kalibr]

The usual politeness of well-bred people. It is customary to thank you even if you are given a seat on the bus due to your age. And then there is this: "A genius thinks and creates. An ordinary man brings to fulfillment. Uses and does not thank."
- "Some materials for the biography of K. P. Prutkov"

[cost]

Why write this?

Is it really bad form to thank the author for the work he has done?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Varyag_0711

Yes, yes, all his comments boil down to "thanks, it was very interesting to read" ... laughing Why write this?

Perhaps this is because he never read anything better in his life. Or never read it at all.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: ee2100

You are some kind of late today and by duty praise

Quote: Varyag_0711

ee2100 (Alexander)
You are some kind of late today and by duty praise

Yes, yes, all his comments boil down to "thanks, it was very interesting to read" ... Why write this?

Quote: ee2100

"Why why?" Served!

Unlike you gentlemen (Comrades), I am not bothered by your opinion and attitude towards me personally. On VO I read what I like and evaluate what I like. If the Author of the article even received his earned ruble, I will not lose money if, after "a portion of pleasure" from reading his work, I will thank him too much! Likewise, in reverse order, if you do not like it, I will say my reasoned "fi"
If it is hard for you to realize the simple truth - "a kind word and the dog is pleased", I suggest that Vyacheslav Olegovich received from me a "+" as the owner of the cat Basya, from the owner - Sonya!
Well, and the last thing, I suggest, in order to prevent my beloved, to organize a shift shift to the first lines of comments
Well, or on a rotational basis in turn to Siberia !!! I can even help draw up a schedule and form an agenda for the meeting, about excommunicating me from Pan's markets!
All the best!!!

[kalibr]

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

from me "+" as the owner of the cat Basya, from the owner - Sonya!

Offset! My Basya is now lying next to her and looking at the screen ... She is no longer looking.

[cost]

The battle between the Russians and the French. N. Samokish

Vyacheslav Olegovich, in your article you cited several illustrations by Nikolai Semyonovich Samokish.

I draw your attention to the fact that this person himself deserves a separate topic on VO.
His drawings and paintings can be used to study the history of our army from time immemorial to the Second World War.
In your editorial office, the material about Nikolai Semenovich with illustrations of his battle works will be a "bomb" and will cause numerous comments

Order bearer comrade Samokish, not only our famous meter, whose works are known and appreciated all over the world, but also an active talented teacher and mentor of a new formation of Soviet artists - battle painters. I.V. Stalin (speech at a reception in front of the laurets of the 1941 Stalin Prize)

Best regards
Dmitriy

[kalibr]

Thanks for the great idea. We need to see his drawings in "Niva" on the theme of the First World War, I saw them ...

[Astra wild]

My Puzik is never interested in what the hostess does with the tablet

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: kalibr

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

from me "+" as the owner of the cat Basya, from the owner - Sonya!

Offset! My Basya is now lying next to her and looking at the screen ... She is no longer looking.

"The cuckoo praises the rooster ..." Grandfather Krylov .., such a grandfather!

[cost]

Kote Pan Kokhanka (Vladislav): I propose to consider that Vyacheslav Olegovich received from me "+" as the owner of the cat Basya, from the owner - Sonya!
Well, and the last thing, I propose, in order to prevent my beloved, to organize a shift shift to the first lines of comments and form an agenda for the meeting, about excommunicating me from Pan's caps! All the best!!!

Since all estates have now been abolished, we demand from the members of the workers' committee to rename the cat pane Kohanka to the citizen Sofya Kohanyuk. It's time for her to stop her bourgeois habits - she lives in 7 rooms, does experiments on living people, she categorically refuses to acquire bonds of Osaviakhim and, most importantly, leads a suspicious acquaintance with the well-known citizen of the criminal world.

[cost]

For Vera, Vlad, Vyacheslav and all members of the forum-cat-lovers I post a wonderful photo of 1908, the work of Sergei Mikhailovich Prokudin-Gorsky

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Dmitry!!! To tears, !!!!! Test !!!

[cost]

There was a man of great talent and skill.
By the way, this photo received an Honorary Diploma at the Second All-Russian Exhibition "Russian Folk Art" in Petrograd in 1913 and was published in large circulation in large format in the form of "wall paintings"

[Astra wild]

Color photographs in 1913? I thought it was a myth

[cost]

Color photographs in 1913? I thought it was a myth

I sincerely envy you, Vera - a wonderful discovery awaits you
Do not be lazy to find his work in the internet. Just fill in the search engine - Prokudin-Gorsky .
You will be pleasantly surprised. You will find that in the era when people were saving up money for a black-and-white photograph, in the Russian Empire one magician was already taking color pictures in full. They have survived to this day. Thanks to them, you can see the life of people, architecture, and the nature of Russia in color. The person who presented us with such a valuable gift was called Sergei Prokudin-Gorsky.
One of the 370 gold medals at the 1900 World Exhibition in Paris was awarded by a special committee headed by Gustav Eiffel to the Russian "magician" Prokudin-Gorsky for his magnificent color photo "Russian Field. Cornflowers in the Rye"

The talent and popularity of Sergei Mikhailovich is indicated by the fact that Emperor Nicholas II in 1911 provided Prokudin with a railway carriage, in which there was a whole photo studio, a small steamer and a boat for filming on the water, a Ford car with a driver, as well as "keys to all doors" - there was a special order to let the photographer into all objects, including secret ones, to show him everything he asked. It was supposed to take 10 photographs of Russia in 000 years.
still from Leonid Parfenov's film "The Color of the Nation"
"S.M. Prokudin-Gorsky explains the principle of color photography to the royal family"

[Astra wild]

Rich thanks for the fun

[Proxima]

Pay attention, almost all experts, almost unanimously, assert about the numerical advantage (albeit small) of the French. But then perestroika burst out and the "historians" - adapters of the new wave now also unanimously "counted" a clear advantage now in the Russian army. What is it interesting for the document that “shed light” on the Battle of Borodino or just a social order?

[Astra wild]

A colleague of Proxima, in fairness, the first figure of 160 was named by General Marbo back in the middle of the 000th century. And modern historians have only repeated.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Mavrikiy

This is how you learn, learn and bam - second shift

How to say? In this article, the distinguished author has shown the diversity of opinions on the number of Russian and French troops. In the next, he will state his view on this issue and explain why he is exactly like that. Then, probably, it will move on to losses ... As a result, you will get a well-structured series of articles.

[Liam]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Quote: Mavrikiy

This is how you learn, learn and bam - second shift

How to say? In this article, the distinguished author has shown the diversity of opinions on the number of Russian and French troops. In the next, he will state his view on this issue and explain why he is exactly like that. Then, probably, it will move on to losses ... As a result, you will get a well-structured series of articles.

It's just a pity that everything that is on the topic will be expressed in the discussion of this article and by the time the next one comes out there will be nothing special to discuss.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Liam

It's a pity that everything that is on the topic will be expressed in the discussion of this article

I can't say anything about this. Actually, the topic of Napoleon is interesting to me, but I did not dig it deeply, my knowledge there revolves mainly around "Napoleon" Tarle. And I read articles and comments to them with pleasure.

[VIP]

Don't worry: a smart person will ALWAYS find something to say

[ee2100]

He probably sent you the second part of the whole story that you are so confident in its content and quality!

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: ee2100

He probably sent you the second part of the whole story that you are so confident in its content and quality!

I didn't understand humor. The author himself said about what will happen in the next article. As for the quality, I did not say anything at all, although my personal opinion (which I do not impose on anyone) is that Vyacheslav Shpakovsky's quality is always at its best.

[ee2100]

It's good that you are so confident in him! Let's wait for the continuation and see. In the meantime, apart from pictures and links to a propaganda article in a propaganda publication, nothing new. Wikipedia has a tablet with the opinion of various citizens about the number of troops at the Battle of Borodino.

[kalibr]

Dear Alexander! To begin with, NOVELTY is a relative concept. If VO published only revelatory articles, then ... updates would occur ... once a week, or even six months. And you want it every day, right? And research has long proven that people are not so important about the content as the form in which it is clothed. There are those, like you, for example, who are interested in the content. But there are so few of them that they can be completely neglected as an audience. And I didn’t come up with it, Alexander. I just use what I have.
By the way, you would not have seen "Niva" without me. A trifle, but nice.

[ee2100]

Good afternoon, Vyacheslav!
I understand that my requirements for the site are too high, but "diamond" is better than just beads. Don't mistake it for grumbling, but there used to be more interesting articles. It is clear that the site makes money and, unfortunately, this is put at the forefront.
Yes, I did not hold "Niva" in my hands, but I have a filing of "Ogonyok" from the beginning of the 1919th century until XNUMX, although not all the numbers.

[kalibr]

Quote: ee2100

that my site requirements are too high,

Dear Alexander! They are not overstated, you just look at ... him from your point of view. 80% and 20% - that's where the dog is buried. The first ones know little, but there are a lot of them, but in terms of information they are "above the roof". 20% know a lot, but it's pointless to be guided by them. "It used to be more interesting" is not so. There were simply more gaps that are filled today and much is perceived at the level of recognition. And then ... money ... How else to do business in a poor country? Where are the multiple advertisements from small and medium businesses? For example, in my Penza I cannot persuade any of the manufacturers I know to advertise on VO. Someone is afraid, someone ... "and so good." Market analysis and the effectiveness of advertising are not carried out, they spend money on houses with gargoyles ... Therefore, the site, for example, cannot send a person on a creative business trip. There are no rich sponsors on it either. We live in such a country, Alexander. And its shortcomings are the continuation of its own merits.

[ee2100]

Pay attention - the article is practically not discussed, but it goes ... a small-grave get-together. And from this the conclusion is that the article is not very informative, the people are savvy and they know all this. In vain you underestimate members of the forum.

[kalibr]

Quote: ee2100

In vain you underestimate members of the forum

And the get-together goes on many articles, according to which no one knows anything at all. People just communicate. It's like a club. Then what does "know" mean? You don't need to know today. Opened Wikipedia, there is a text, links to sources. Take a quote - and you are an "expert"! But this is not really knowledge ...

[ee2100]

"People communicate." Not certainly in that way. I agree that often an article is a pretext for clarifying "positions" and, in fact, quite irreconcilable. A person has the right to express his opinion, but the other side should not resort to arguments - "go learn the mathematical part". You are right to point out that there is a great achievement of the Internet Wikipedia. And any customer can easily use it, so that we have only one "hardware part" (on average), and all this and additional knowledge, incl. and not only historical, personal experience, common sense, logic, etc., this leads to a different, different from the official history, understanding of this or that fact of history.
But some members of the forum are clinging to the official interpretation of this or that event, as in the last stronghold. I can understand the professional historians, including you. But there are no others. If you disagree with someone's opinion - express yours and that's it. Let there be a normal polemic, and not a transition to personalities. A mutually respectful discussion is useful for the site.
There are practically no runaways here. I am deeply convinced that more than 90% of the visitors to this sub-site are people interested in stories.
And comments on the verge of insult only harm both the truth and the site as a commercial project.
All the best, Vyacheslav!
PS I hope for a fruitful discussion of the second part of your work

[kalibr]

Quote: ee2100

Let there be a normal polemic, and not a transition to personalities.

However, it always takes place, doesn't it?
And the second part ... it is also devoted to figures, but of little use, associated with the burial of the victims of the Battle of Borodino. So many will not like it at all. People want 100% ready-made answers. Alas, "A poet in Russia is more than a poet." Although personally I do not like it at all.

[ee2100]

With the numbers at the beginning of the battle, everything is more or less clear, so there was no controversy, but about the results of the battle! Here opinions differ and I hope for a "fresh wind".

[3x3zsave]

It's like a club.
I was caught yesterday in "clubbing". Well, the idea in the air has become a word. Business after small, after business!

[kalibr]

I don’t understand what the crime is. People cannot be interested only in murderous pieces of iron and rejoice that Ukrainians and Americans are “bad”, but we are good and will kick everyone's ass on occasion. Some extraneous topics constantly pop up and why not discuss them here? Any popular portal eventually becomes such a club. This is an axiom of online journalism.

[3x3zsave]

I do not understand too. But, as the current discussion of your article has shown (by the way, thanks!), Gratitude to the author for his work is considered something shameful, like bestiality.

[kalibr]

I was very surprised at one time, Anton, by comments in English magazines. There it was like this: "This morning I happily found ... the Military History magazine and John's article in it ... Many thanks to him for the impressive and vivid story ... the time spent searching for documents ... But why he did not provide a link to an excerpt from Gladys-Johnson's comments about ... his statement cannot be considered proven either ... because ... in general, I expected more ... "And all the comments are about the same. But I ran into this in 1989. Then the scoop still bloomed in lush color. But then time passed, the "collective farm" died long ago, and the "collective farm customs", including purely patriarchal rudeness, remained. No wonder it is said: an old dog cannot be taught new tricks! Moreover, there are "new people". Including here. And the analysis of comments and + - shows that there are already about 50% of them, which can be considered a very high show. And it is good that this is so at VO But no wonder they say a fly in the ointment spoils the barrel of honey! So until there are 80 and 20, and you and I have to ... be patient!

[VIP]

Vyacheslav, and I saw: "Niva" for 1913. True 1 number. So don't ask yourself too much.
PS
If desired, many can look at this magazine.
I read newspapers for 1907

[cost]

I have about a dozen "Niva" since WWI, not even cut, but in one large sheet. I no longer remember the history of their appearance in the house. Another thing is interesting - all the second sheets of magazines - publish lists of the dead and wounded.

[kalibr]

Quote: Rich

Another thing is interesting - all the second pages of the magazines publish lists of the dead and wounded.

Then it was so. Respect for the fallen and injured. Such is the bad tsarist regime!

[kalibr]

Quote: V I P

Vyacheslav, and I saw: "Niva" for 1913. True 1 number. So don't ask yourself too much.

Everything is learned by comparison, right?

[Vend]

Well, from the figures given, it becomes clear that the French were second only to the number of guns.

[Bar1]

all these "patriotic wars" as presented by these tsarist "historians" under serfdom look strange and even stupid. How can we say that for a serf peasant this war can be patriotic or national, if a enslaved people, that the Germans are internal, that the external is not Rus, is one and the same thing. Because all these rulers always need the same from the people - heavy slave labor for the blessing of a lord who came from somewhere, as well as a pure-blooded Russian race must maintain with their blood the rotten blood and the immoral lifestyle of non-Russians. Therefore, the peasants beat everyone who was dressed and spoke not ours.
Therefore, this "patriotic" war is most likely a lie to a greater extent.
Antagonism and conflict did not take place between Russia and France, but between their rulers, their own and not their own and the Russian people.

[ee2100]

It became "domestic" much later, and so it was named "French company" Everyone knows about Vasilisa Kozhina, but the fact that other formations of "partisans" robbed both friends and foes is also known.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: ee2100

it became "domestic" much later

You will say that I am picking on you again, or I have some personal feelings, but I cannot resist.
The term "patriotic war" appeared almost immediately after the end of the company in 1812. Already during the overseas campaign of the Russian army, Fyodor Nikolaevich Glinka (an officer, a participant in the war) wrote a treatise "On the need to have a history of the Patriotic War of 1812", which began with the words:

Frequent conversations about the Patriotic War, about the glory of the name and weapons of the Russian, about the spirit of the people, about the courage of the troops were the reason for discussions about the need for history.

Pay attention, he speaks of the "Patriotic War", not considering it necessary for himself to specify what kind of war he has in mind. It seems to me that this suggests that at the time of writing the treatise, this war had already been called "Patriotic" in fairly wide circles, and this is 1815. So, after all, not "much later", but almost immediately.

Quote: ee2100

Everyone knows about Vasilis Kozhina, but the fact that other formations of "partisans" robbed both their own and others is also known.

There have been cases of collaboration, there is no getting around it. And looting too. Such phenomena accompany any war, any confusion. The question is different. These phenomena were of an isolated nature, while the struggle against the occupiers was massive. Traitors and looters did not have the slightest influence on the course of this war, therefore, honestly, I do not understand why you mentioned them. A common, simply inevitable thing absolutely in any war. In the overwhelming majority of wars, there were much more such personnel.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Bar1

all these "patriotic wars" published by these tsarist historians under serfdom look strange and even stupid.

You, Bar, nature has created, apparently for the edification of people - they say, look, it can be the same with you if you become proud and think yourself wise and omniscient. What you don’t write - at first it becomes funny (although it’s a sin to laugh in such cases), then it’s sad - after all, you are also a person, just ... with special features, but you’re probably not to blame for this ... Then irritation comes. I guess I need to be a little more tolerant in order to perceive you. But so far I am far from such perfection, so I will nevertheless speak out.
Even you have probably heard this formula: "For Faith, Tsar and Fatherland." But, most likely, as usual, they did not think about its essence. I will try to explain.
Faith is the first marker used to distinguish oneself from another. A kind of identifier and at the same time a unifying principle. A common believer "by default" is his own, a non-believer is a stranger who for many centuries did not bring anything good to Russia with him. Faith needs to be protected.
The king is not a specific person with his human qualities, it is a phenomenon, something distant, but definitely good, kind. The king is generous and merciful, formidable and great. It is from God. He also needs to be protected.
Fatherland - everything is simpler and more complicated here. The fatherland is everything that surrounded the then man - fields, forests, rivers, people, in short, the land itself and everything that is on it - whether it was received from ancestors, whether it was made with our own hands, what labor was invested in for centuries, generations. And this also needs to be protected.
The fact that there is a landowner on this earth - good or bad, good or evil, clever or, like you, stupid - did not and could not have a decisive significance - they were too small figures, too insignificant. The master, who spoke French with his peasants, was treated like a funny eccentric, but his own, because they have with this master one faith, one king, one fatherland... And the landowners were different. And those that were "good" for the peasants were in no way less than "bad".
You, as a person who thinks to the extreme narrowly, can only see what is right in front of your eyes and are incapable of any complex conclusions and comparisons, probably in the place of the Russian peasant you could become a collaborationist simply out of resentment against a particular master, in which you saw "nerus". For you, there is no difference between one "non-Rus" and another. Fortunately, our ancestors, many of whom did not even know how to read, not that like you, to write, were for the most part much smarter, wiser than you, looked at life wider and saw it deeper, therefore, they were unambiguously and quickly able to determine who was for them the enemy, what and from whom must be protected.
I gave you a minus. Your comment made me feel so disgusting that I could not resist. I believe that you fully deserve this minus from me.

[Bar1]

Quote: Trilobite Master

You, Bar, nature created, apparently for the edification of people - they say, look, it can be the same with you, if you are proud and think yourself wise and omniscient

write yourself, but not about yourself.

Quote: Trilobite Master

But so far I am far from such perfection, so I will nevertheless speak out.

In general, this is correct, because on the forum it is necessary not only to send greetings and to say thanks to Shpakovsky, but also to strain yourself, to respond to something on the topic, though you, as a local fool with a toy saber, manage to do it all the worse.

Quote: Trilobite Master

Even you have probably heard this formula: "For Faith, Tsar and Fatherland." But, most likely, as usual, they did not think about its essence. I will try to explain.

the point is Triblobit, that the science of history, as a "science" has long ago discredited itself, i.e. the more different uncles who have settled down from history come forward, the more questions arise for them. A lie cannot become true, a lie cannot be friends with logic, and even more so with the natural sciences, which make more and more claims to the false presentation of the past of mankind.
Behind each point of this slogan is something completely different from what is striking at first glance.
-The belief of the Russian people was praise to the Sun, the same Kalash in Pakistan, they do not speak Russian, but they look almost Russian (they are already spoiled by the Nerus), and most importantly, they have preserved the Old Faith-belief in the Sun. Why are there white ones among the black history is unable to answer.
By the way, Christianity was created specifically for slaves, and the gentlemen worshiped the Roman and Greek gods, they glorified them and likened them, which can be seen in all the fine arts of that time.
-tzar -tzar is a German, why on earth should Russian obey the Germans? The arrival of non-Russians to Russia was marked by numerous wars, rifle riots, the war of Razin, Pugachev, and probably the war of 1812. According to the calculations, it was academic scientists who under Peter went abroad from "wise" German rule and this Christian Orthodox Church MILLIONS of people, write up to a third of the country's population.
-The fatherland -was very evil for the peasants, the peasants bent their backs in the corvee, regardless of the "good or evil master."

Quote: Trilobite Master

The fact that there is a landowner on this earth - good or bad, good or evil, clever or, like you, stupid - did not and could not have decisive importance - these were too small figures, too insignificant. They treated the master, who spoke French with his peasants, as a ridiculous eccentric, but his own, because they have the same faith with this master, one king, one fatherland. And the landowners were different. And those that were "good" for the peasants were in no way less than "bad".

what a primitive lie. The master could punish the peasants, whip to death, could sell people like cattle. In Poland, slaves could be punished with death. So don't lie.

Quote: Trilobite Master

You, as a person who thinks to the extreme narrowly, can only see what is right in front of your eyes and are incapable of any complex conclusions and comparisons, probably in the place of a Russian peasant you could become a collaborationist simply out of resentment against a particular master, in which you saw "nerus"

This is again a lie, because digging up the facts about what reality was in those days needs to be looked for and will work. But the trilobite, as a local propagandist, lumping everything together is a favorite technique.

[Trilobite Master]

Everything is as usual.

Quote: Bar1

history as "science" has long ago discredited itself, i.e. the more different uncles who have settled down from history come forward, the more questions arise for them. A lie cannot become true, a lie cannot be friends with logic, and even more so with natural sciences, which make more and more claims to the false presentation of the past of mankind.

And after all, it is not enough for a person to look for and make sure that the answers to the questions that appear in him, in most cases, were given a long time ago, you just need to look for that with at least some superficial analysis of the constructions of "alternatives" there are much more logical inconsistencies in them than anywhere whatever the data of natural sciences naturally confirm, sometimes correct, but in no way refute the data of historical science. All these "artifacts" which supposedly "do not fit" into the "official history" turn out to be either direct fakes, or their qualities and properties do not correspond to those declared by the "truth seekers", or they simply cannot be investigated for various reasons, the first of which, of course, is a conspiracy of everyone and everything with the aim of destroying everything and everyone.
By the way, here is another example of such an "artifact". The video is not on the topic of the article, but on the topic of natural sciences and their history contradictions.

There are such refutations for every invention of Fomenko and other freaks, but ... I personally have repeatedly cut stakes on your head and made sure that, in full accordance with the Russian proverb, this is useless.
Okay, I have fulfilled the maximum program for you today, for this I say goodbye. I wish you health and do not forget to take your medicines.

[Bar1]

Quote: Trilobite Master

By the way, here is another example of such an "artifact". Ro

by definition, there can be no serious in such transmissions. The jester Sokolov in his expensive house (physics brings such income or propaganda? Probably propaganda for the Olympic Games) fulfills the fees of the Ministry of Truth in full.

[kalibr]

Have you read Nekrasov, a landowner-poet at school? He wrote about what he saw, but he was appreciated ... And then there is a book by Olga Semenova-Tyan-Shanskaya "LIFE" IVAN. "It is very instructive ... Some peasants loved their landowners, even hid Pugachev from the thief !!!

[Bar1]

Quote: kalibr

Have you read Nekrasov, a landowner-poet at school?

Yes, he is trying to deceive out of the blue. I read Nekrasov, still in a Soviet school.

Go to the Volga: whose groan is heard
Over the great Russian river?
We call this groan a song -
Then the barge haulers go on a towline! ..
Volga! Volga! .. In the spring of high water
You don't fill the fields like that
How great tribulation of the people
Our land is overflowing, -

[kalibr]

Quote: Bar1

Then the barge haulers go on a towline! ..

My article was just about the barge haulers. And not everything was so bad there ... But he has others, about peasant children, for example.
And also this: Who lives well in Russia
...
People of Kholopsky
ranks -
Real dogs
sometimes:
The harder
punishment,
The dearer to them
gentlemen. ...
Author: N. A. Nekrasov

[Bar1]

Quote: kalibr

People of Kholopsky
ranks -
Real dogs
sometimes:
The harder
punishment,
The dearer to them
gentlemen. ...

I wrote about ONE slave whom he tamed and placed on top of the others. This does not change the general picture of slavery in Russia, well, you are not talking about that and doing it intentionally, but this is not surprising, because you work for OI. Seeing one thing and not to notice another is yours with OI credo.

[Yaik Cossack]

".. history as a science has discredited itself" ...
and spelling too?
Bar, you're just an illiterate person. These are not typos, this is the level of alternative literacy. Typos look different.
Where you find historical "gaps", there are actually gaps in your education. And you cannot see real scientific problems, since for this you need to have at least the rudiments of scientific analysis.
Therefore, why do you need the higher mathematics of history, when you have not yet overcome calligraphy arithmetic? Try to read more)))

[Bar1]

Did you come here to arrange a check in Russian? For you, you can see the ceiling, there is nothing more to say on the topic then.
However, the word is not ours, and therefore to hell with it. As indeed it is with you.
Learn a foreign alphabet and you will seem literate, but not interesting.

[VIP]

I foolishly thought that Islam is practiced in Pakistan

[Bar1]

Quote: Trilobite Master

Fortunately, our ancestors, many of whom did not even know how to read, not that like you, to write, were for the most part much smarter, wiser than you, looked at life wider and saw it deeper, so they were able to unambiguously and quickly determine who was for them the enemy, what and from whom must be protected.

well, this is how the picture is seen,
-We smashed the brothers of the accursed Napoleon, and now let's go home on the master's back from dawn to dawn, and take our girls to the master's house, to delight the master. That this freedom is European for us, but corvee is sacred for every Russian. We will be all bast shoes walk, but die of hunger is ours.

[Bar1]

cartoon Mezha, just clearly shows what power is, that the king, that the serpent is one and the same.

[kalibr]

Back to the sandbox!

[kalibr]

Quote: Bar1

We will all walk in bast shoes, but die of hunger is our way.

That is exactly the way it was, your only true writing!

[Bar1]

Quote: kalibr

That is exactly the way it was, your only true writing!

no, it was not like that. The Russians always fought for their freedom and in 17g they hanged all the noble and priest's bastards.

[kalibr]

Quote: Bar1

all noble

Except for the one that went to the Red Army. With her - yes, delayed for 20 years.

[kalibr]

Quote: Bar1

Russians have always fought for their freedom

They have always been led with beautiful words, promises and promises. They had them as everyone wanted. And they have, because ...

[Alexxey]

Everything has long been known. There are archives, scientific monographs. Discover "The First Scientific History of the War of 1812". There is a full schedule and links to documents! Which YOU CAN check.

[Mavrikiy]

To the left and above Marshal Murat (in an old Polish costume)

What a war that was won thanks to ... spies!

But we are waiting for the continuation.

[kalibr]

If you are interested in the topic of spies in the war of 12 years, then you can only for 500 rubles. to order the text of Bezotosny's thesis: "French and Russian intelligence and the plans of the parties in 1812" (dissertation of the candidate of historical sciences: 07.00.02), M., 1987. That's where everything is, including links to documents from archives. By the way, I also had an article about "those spies" here on VO, but for a long time already. I don't remember the name, sorry.

[Mavrikiy]

(-) is not me, and the horse is not mine. Probably a French spy, fearing exposure.

[kalibr]

As you wish, the honor would be accorded ...

[Alexxey]

Bezotosny is the lying rat of the evil empire. The only scientific work - "The first scientific history of the war of 1812"!

[Olgovich]

The exact numbers will never be known, because it depends on many factors, at least on who is considered to be participants: for example, the participants in it? Etc.

In general, 120-140 thousand, ours - less than 10 percent.

And in general, all the information is given on the Main Borodin Monument:

And the result:

[kalibr]

Yes, but this "document" is not accurate, and as such does not figure in any serious research. 185000 people at Borodino - none of the sources indicates this. They took it from the ceiling, as well as the number of guns.

[Olgovich]

Quote: kalibr

Yes, but this "document" is not accurate, and as such does not figure in any serious research. 185000 people at Borodino - none of the sources indicates this.

I like this.

And the "exact" counting depends on how and whom to count. And there have always been and WILL be many versions

[kalibr]

Quote: Olgovich

And there have always been and WILL be many versions

Yes, there are people who say that: I adhere to the version of Troitsky, I am Bezotosny. You can say - "I stick to the monument version". Why not?!

[Olgovich]

Quote: kalibr

You can say - "I adhere to the version of the monument." Why not?!

Versions of the History of Russia 1839 years

[kalibr]

Quote: Olgovich

Versions of the History of Russia 1839

Well, let me play a little bit ... Just a little. Besides, the "version of the monument" sounds more interesting!

[Liam]

Since then, the lionfish was born ..Cast in granite

[Undecim]

Someone Medvedev "cast" in granite, all the rest were carved.

[Liam]

Sometimes carve How cast
A tacit conspiracy to wait for the next part of the author's dilogy (hopefully not a trilogy) and not discuss the figures forced everyone to engage in fiction in the comments. At the same time, another turbopatriot categorically refuses to add these 25.000 so well-armed and ideologically savvy patriots to the ranks of the Russian army because they aesthetically spoil his task with many unknowns and one reinforced concrete granite known - 180.000 French. count also all the carts

[Undecim]

Sometimes carved as cast
Does the expression "pouring bells" sound familiar to you? Here on the site there are more and more foundry workers, both among the authors and among the commentators.

[kalibr]

Quote: Undecim

Someone Medvedev "cast" in granite, all the rest were carved.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ccsr]

Quote: kalibr

Well, let me play a little bit ... Just a little. Besides, the "version of the monument" sounds more interesting!

Let me laugh at your ignorance about ancient monuments:

The Tmutarakan stone is a marble slab with an Old Russian inscription, which reports on the measurement of the distance between two cities - Tmutarakan and Korchev (Kerch) in 1068. The stone was found on the Taman Peninsula in 1792 by Admiral P.V. Pustoshkin while escorting the Black Sea Cossacks to Taman. It is currently kept in the State Hermitage Museum in St. Petersburg. A copy of the stone is in a sculptural composition with the ancient Russian prince Gleb and the chronicler Nikon, installed in Kerch [1]. It is the oldest evidence of the hydrographic works of Ancient Rus and a striking archaeological monument of the Tmutarakan principality.
.... The inscription refers to the Tmutarakan prince Gleb Svyatoslavich. The distance of 14 thousand swing fathoms (24 km) exactly coincides with the distance between the central temples of Tmutarakan (the Church of the Mother of God, from which only the foundation remained) and Korchev (Church of St. John the Baptist), which, according to researchers, proves the entry of both cities into the Tmutarakan principality, since the prince should have been able to enter the center of each city.

[kalibr]

It’s a strange way to pull by the ears into a topic that is completely irrelevant to it. Let's remember at the same time the disc of Feth, the Book of Kells ... Etruscan inscriptions that are stored in the Academy in Cortona ... And by the way, what is wrong with this stone? Explain ... It's not my business to be interested in every stone. There are many that I, for example, have seen, but you have not. For example, Ephesian marbles. But what does this prove, nothing! Only that I was in the Hovburg Palace, and you were not.

[BAI]

185000 people at Borodino - none of the sources indicates this. They took it from the ceiling, as well as the number of guns.

Similar numbers (including the guns) are here:
Patriotic War of 1812. VUA materials. SPb., 1911.T. XVI. Pp. 110, 118-119 .:

Before the battle, the Russians had 95000 "line troops", 7000 Cossacks and 10000 militias, a total of 112000 people. with 640 guns; out of action 25000 people., about 800 officers and 13 generals. Napoleon brought more than 185000 people to the Borodino field. with 1000 guns; lost up to 50000 privates, more than 1500 officers and 39 generals

But these are figures from 1911, and the monument was erected in 1837. db and earlier documents.

In general, here is this article

https://vk.com/@napoleon_bonaparte.public-chislennost-i-poteri-armii-pri-borodino2-ya-redakciya

clearly demonstrates that the assessment of the number and losses of troops at Borodino is a hopeless business. There is always a refuting document for any figure with other figures.
I got the strong impression that Napoleon and Kutuzov only approximately knew the number and losses of their troops.
Here it would be necessary to apply any mathematical method for processing expert assessments, for example, from volume 7 of the reference book "Reliability and efficiency in technology" in 10 volumes, ed. "Mechanical Engineering" 1989 or any other. To say: "With a probability of 0,95 we can say that the numbers were like that ...", but historians won't even allow mathematics to enter their field, they need paper with a signature and seal, not a mathematical calculation.

[kalibr]

Quote: BAI

they need paper with signature and stamp

You will have paper too ... Although, again, the accuracy is not 100%. People are people!

[BAI]

What I'm talking about is that historians do not believe mathematics.

[kalibr]

Mathematics, too, often operates with inaccuracies. But: ABSOLUTELY FIRM - model the concept of classical mechanics, denoting a set of material points, the distances between which are preserved in the process of any movements performed by this body. MODEL ... it doesn't really exist! I am wrong?

[Undecim]

Mathematics, too, often operates with inaccuracies. But: ABSOLUTELY SOLID
I am wrong?
You are very wrong, first of all, that you have invaded a completely dark area for you - the exact sciences. This is clearly not yours, for an absolutely rigid body is not mathematics, but theoretical mechanics, the science of mechanical motion and the interaction of material bodies.
To describe the motion of bodies, depending on the conditions of the problem, various physical models are used in theoretical mechanics. More often than others, they use the concepts of an absolutely rigid body and a material point.
An absolutely rigid body is a body, the deformation of which can be neglected for solving the problem. Naturally, in reality there are no absolutely rigid bodies.
A material point is a body, the dimensions of which can be neglected for solving a specific problem. For example, when calculating the motion of our solar system relative to the center of the Galaxy, one can neglect not only the dimensions of the planets and the Sun, but also the dimensions of the entire solar system, which in this problem will be a material point.
I don't want to offend anyone, but usually, for the humanities, the axiomatics of theoretical mechanics is beyond comprehension

[kalibr]

Quote: Undecim

Naturally, in reality there are no absolutely rigid bodies.

This is the only thing that matters to me! And I just know that. That is, there are no exact sciences at all. None!

[Undecim]

It is strange, as a humanist with philosophy, you should be familiar, as well as with a relativistic approach to the question.
Naturally, there is no absolute knowledge. Knowledge about something is true for each historical period and changes along with the expansion of the field of scientific knowledge.
And in terms of denying the exact sciences, explain how, in your opinion, the accuracy of calculations of the trajectory of a satellite to Saturn is affected by the fact that it is considered a material point?

[kalibr]

Quote: Undecim

And in terms of denying the exact sciences, explain how, in your opinion, the accuracy of calculations of the trajectory of a satellite to Saturn is affected by the fact that it is considered a material point?

I don’t know and don’t want to know. But you yourself said, "Naturally, in reality there are no absolutely solid bodies." However, exact science takes advantage of this. How accurate can use inaccurate?

[Undecim]

I said that the axiomatics of theoretical mechanics is beyond the understanding of the humanities.
You will never understand the difference between precision and abstraction.
It is precisely the abstraction from reality that is the most accurate. You just need to remember about the limits of their applicability, because forgetting about it, you can come to completely wrong conclusions.
I will say briefly - practically everything that surrounds you - the transport you drive, the house in which you live, the bridge over which you cross the river - everything is calculated in accordance with the laws of theoretical mechanics.

[BAI]

an absolutely rigid body is not mathematics, but theoretical mechanics, the science of mechanical motion and the interaction of material bodies.

I absolutely agree with you. And with conclusions too. Thanks for answering for me.

[Undecim]

The first exam I took at the institute was theoretical mechanics. This is not order, but effort.

[Vladimir Demyanov]

For relaxation, not on the topic of the article: "If you pass the theory, you can fall in love. If you pass the proof material, you can marry. But TMM is my grave!" :( The theory of machines and mechanisms). In general, it is not always possible to apply mathematics in history. In this case, the initial data for calculations should be more reliable. At least some. Then you can calculate the number of losses from the initial ones, or from the losses - the number before the start of the battle, and then with a degree of probability. And so ... who to believe, everyone seems to be right.

[Free wind]

The plowman probably wore all the best, but there was not enough money for boots, walking barefoot is not very pleasant. Although probably happy with the year. The horse has brought a foal, and this will bring a good profit.

[bubalik]

5. Alexander Ivanovich Mikhailovsky-Danilevsky (1789-1848), lieutenant general, senator, Russian military writer, historian, author of the first official history of the Patriotic War of 1812, written in four volumes on the personal assignment of Emperor Nicholas I, and published in 1839 ... In his books, the French at Borodino - 160 thousand, Russians - 128 thousand.

,,, and in hot pursuit did not count.

Mikhailovsky-Danilevsky A.I.
Complete works of Alexander Ivanovich Mikhailovsky-Danilevsky. Volume IV. Description of the Patriotic War of 1812. (Chapter I-XXXVII.)
[i] [/ i]

[kalibr]

Yes, I know this source too. And about him is in the materials of the RF Ministry of Defense about the Battle of Borodino. There are also multiple links to it in the Russian-language Wikipedia.

[sergo1914]

How to assess the qualifications of Russian historians of the late 90s - early 2000s? There are sharply more Russians than French. Manual, as in the Second World War. And who said that the most corrupt are journalists, artists and women with a low level of social responsibility? Post-Soviet historians are confidently pushing these specialties out of the TOP.

[Olgovich]

Quote: sergo1914

How to assess the qualifications of Russian historians of the late 90s - early 2000s? There are sharply more Russians than French

yeah, I also noticed. And how did they pierce the thickness of time?

[sergo1914]

Quote: Olgovich

Quote: sergo1914

How to assess the qualifications of Russian historians of the late 90s - early 2000s? There are sharply more Russians than French

yeah, I also noticed. And how did they pierce the thickness of time?

Shpakovsky knows the secret.

[kalibr]

It is easy for everyone to learn: it is enough to write and defend a thesis on historical topics. First the candidate ...

[sergo1914]

Quote: kalibr

It is easy for everyone to learn: it is enough to write and defend a thesis on historical topics. First the candidate ...

On the subject of the history of the CPSU in its late Soviet version? Do you consider this a science?

[kalibr]

Imagine - yes. Science implies the formulation of a problem, the study of historiography on the problem, the selection of documents in archives confirming the hypothesis of the researcher, their use to present the version of the researcher. The dissertation in this case is a REGULAR QUALIFICATION WORK, showing that its author can do all this. That's all. What it is dedicated to - does not matter. By the way, my work is on the Internet. You can download it and get to know it.

[Undecim]

Imagine - yes. Science implies the formulation of a problem, the study of historiography on the problem, the selection of documents in archives confirming the hypothesis of the researcher, their use to present the version of the researcher.
You, Vyacheslav Olegovich, confused science with the methodology of science. The application of the methodology to some area of ​​knowledge does not yet make it scientific, and the area - science.
The history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union is an ideological science-like product, a kind of informational margarine instead of butter, which was used to compost the brains of generations of Soviet students of generations of teachers of this product.

[kalibr]

Quote: Undecim

a science-like product, a kind of information margarine instead of butter

Margarine is also eaten and how, for a sweet soul. For baking, it is better than butter. So everything depends on the end, and the end, as you know, justifies the means.

[Catfish]

Hi Andrew.
Everything is as always: "The future is beyond our control, but the past depends on us."

[kalibr]

Quote: sergo1914

There are sharply more Russians than French.

Write to you about the shortcomings of French historiography?

[Undecim]

In the 18th Bulletin of the Great Army of September 10, which was compiled with his undoubted participation, Napoleon presented the "Battle of the Moscow River" as a decisive victory over the Russian army.
Not only with his participation, he signed it together with the army quartermaster Daru.

As for the "Bolleten ..." itself, it was released, as they say today. the official government publication - Le Moniteur universel. Intended for the soldiers of the Grande Armée and for citizens, both domestic and foreign. The content is the plans of the parties to the next campaign, laudatory reports about victories and achievements that have "conciliated analogies", that is, what is today called agitprop in its purest form.
Among the Napoleonic praetorians - "grumblers" even a common proverb was born: "ment comme un Bulletin", "lies like" Bulletin ".
So this source is not reliable. Some site authors in this edition would be in great demand.

[kalibr]

Quote: Undecim

So this source is not reliable.

Yes, and this is what the article says. As well as about the letters of Napoleon.

[Catfish]

As Averchenko wrote, Napoleon constantly suffered victories in Russia, the last he suffered on the Berezina.

[Viktor Sergeev]

The coolest thing was that he really did not lose a single battle, in fact, he did not win, since the Russians always achieved what they wanted: they detained and united near Smolensk, detained and undermined the spirit of Napoleon's army near Borodino, finished off almost without a fight on the Berezina ( captivated) the remains. On the Berezina, he still deceived our people and left ... himself with practically no remnants of the army. The term "Pyrrhic victory" should be replaced with "Napoleonic victory".

[Tavrik]

About Borodin is a big question, but under Berezina all combat-ready units left in an organized manner. They finished off only stragglers, marauders and other lumpen.

[Viktor Sergeev]

The total losses of the French army for November 14-17 (26-29) reached 50 thousand soldiers (according to other sources, 35 thousand people). Moreover, about 20 thousand were lost from among the combat-ready part of the army, during the battles with the forces of Wittgenstein and Chichagov. The Russians alone captured 5 generals, 427 headquarters and chief officers, about 23,5 thousand soldiers. The actual "Great Army" of Napoleon ceased to exist.
Napoleon brought out about 9000 combat-ready people, half of them were the guards.
So they left in an organized way.

[Tavrik]

Yes, Averchenko noticed this very subtly. Every victory led to defeat. Such is the paradox.

[BAI]

He asked many times the officers who had arrived with reports where the prisoners were to be taken.

And there were no prisoners either stand or on the other side, because everyone fought to the end. They were taken prisoner wounded. There were no prisoners near Maloyaroslavets either. A large number of prisoners are obtained during the encirclement operation. If there is an opportunity to stand and retreat in an organized manner, there are no prisoners.

[KVU-NSVD]

the bloodiest meat grinder in history at one time. , and if you compare it by the fact that it lasted only a day (excluding the Shevardinsky redoubt), then probably in history. Just imagine .. about three hundred thousand are fighting and there will be a thousand one hundred on the field .... per day ... with artillery. .., but also felling on the Bagrationovy flushes, on the Raevsky battery, and in general all over the field hand-to-hand and bayonet attacks .. A meat grinder without any aircraft and other tanks there .. I would honestly not want to be a hero or a coward there. Although I had to be in battle, but imagining Borodino ... these walls are going under the cannonballs and bullets on the walls, stepping over their comrades under the shout of "Hold the line!" ... And while no one wanted to retreat .. Honestly, it's scary. .Russian heroes of Borodin GLORY ETERNAL ...

[Viktor Sergeev]

There was a real meat grinder at Berezina, where the French lost up to 50 people. killed and 000 thousand prisoners.

[dgonni]

Respect! But there is one note! as the author writes (Two very interesting photographs from the site of the battle. They clearly show why the revolution in Russia had to take place without fail. "In the yard" 1912, and the peasant plows with a plow ... Such an economic "platform" of the state, well, it was And along with the basis, of course, the superstructure had to change too ...)
Then Bish puts the cart in front of the horse. Or did he forget that the basis determines the superstructure?
P.S. in the south in those days already plowed with metal plows. And try to guess the manufacturer three times?
okay tell John Deere! Yeah, just the ones that supply tractors to us!

[kalibr]

Quote: dgonni

And along with the basis, of course, the superstructure had to change ...

What's wrong with this phrase? The order is not specified here. But changes are taking place.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

It depends on what counts as yugas!
In the Lermontov Museum in Taman (Krasnodar Territory, Temryuk District), a weapon of the Kamensk-Uralsky Mining and Metallurgical Plant with a stamp of 1838 is presented as an exhibit! So in order to plow with a plow with a metal share of the John Deere factory, the wild field had to be beaten off with a cast-iron corronade of domestic production.

[Undecim]

P.S. in the south in those days already plowed with metal plows. And try to guess the manufacturer three times?
It will be very difficult to guess the manufacturer, since the "south", the Kherson-Yekaterinoslavsky and Kiev-Kharkov industrial regions gave 16% of the total Russian production of agricultural machinery at the end of the XNUMXth century. Therefore, "Lepp and Valman" to meet the likelihood is much greater. In our village at that time (!) There were two factories of agricultural machines Krieger and Kerner.

[Undecim]

Something you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, offended British historians in terms of determining the number of armies in the Battle of Borodino. And they, meanwhile, also give the French a numerical advantage.
Riehn RK 1812: Napoleon's Russian Campaign - French army 124 with 000 guns, Russian 587 with 103 guns.
But the numbers themselves do not give a complete picture.
French historian Marie-Pierre Rey (book L'Effroyable Tragédie, 2012) writes that the French fired 60 cannon shots, while the Russians fired 000. That is, in fact, the advantage in artillery was on the French side. As regards small arms, the difference is generally catastrophic - 40 versus 000. If we assume that the numbers are close to reality, the losses of the Russian army in any case will be much greater.

[kalibr]

Quote: Undecim

Riehn RK 1812: Napoleon's Russian Campaign - French army 124 with 000 guns, Russian 587 with 103 guns.

I haven't read this one.

[Undecim]

Vyacheslav Olegovich
Sorry that with a small letter, Shift is stuck.

[Viktor Sergeev]

You forget a little about the bayonet. By the way, who gave you the numbers for the use of small shots? Who counted? In your opinion, it turns out that the Russians almost did not shoot, so, one shot per 5 people, and the French did not particularly strain, 2 shots each, nevertheless, then they fired at least 2 shots per minute, and the battle went on all day.

[Undecim]

By the way, who gave you the numbers for the use of small shots?
I indicated the source in the comment.
You forget a little about the bayonet.
I do not forget. 5% of wounds, according to statistics, from cold steel, 75% - bullet.

[Viktor Sergeev]

So you want to say that the French almost lost no one from shooting, given the inefficiency of the then guns? Interestingly, and the French historian himself ran and counted the shots? Yes, no one knows how many people there were, how many shots were fired on a soldier, but 1 shot for three per day of battle is just stupidity, they ran around the field without shooting?

[Undecim]

I have given figures and their sources. If you are interested in them, you can search for information on this issue and either confirm or deny it.

[kalibr]

Quote: Trilobite Master

You, Bar, nature created, apparently for the edification of people - they say, look, it can be the same with you, if you are proud and think yourself wise and omniscient

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
However, the Bible says about it this way: "but answer the foolish one because of his foolishness, so that he does not become a wise man in his own eyes."
Proverbs 26: 5

[Bar1]

Christ said- "... you cannot serve God and mammon"
because to serve, to acquire, means not to understand and not to achieve.

[tolancop]

I liked the material very much. Most recently, 6.09.2020/5/XNUMX I was in Borodino. I drove through some places. The theatrical performance, unfortunately, was canceled for obvious reasons. But there were a lot of people !!! The plans were to visit the museum, although he had been there before. I did not go because of the crowd. I just drove through the facilities. On the Shevardinsky redoubt I came across a small group (about XNUMX people) with a guide dressed in a military suit of that era (I believe that it was a guide, it was difficult to imagine otherwise). Later I met the same group in the monastery. It was very interesting to listen to the guide - it was very interesting: the speech was lively, not official ... Riders in suits, festive atmosphere, excellent weather ... indescribable !!!! Already at home I ran through the descriptions of the monuments on the museum's website. Even by their modest description, one can draw up the course of a grand battle. I will definitely drive it again soon ...

[Viktor Sergeev]

No one will ever know the truth about this battle and there is nothing to bother. Who counted before and after the battle? The majority agree as 120 thousand Russians versus 130 thousand French, while the militia is generally difficult to consider as a force, that is, we remove another 10 thousand.

[BAI]

In the library of the Borodino Museum there are 2 articles about the size of the Russian regular army and militia.
S.V. Shvedov "The number and losses of the Russian army in the Battle of Borodino" and
S.V. Shvedov "On the participation of militias in the Battle of Borodino".
They can also be called reports at conferences at the Borodino Battle Panorama Museum.
The size of the regular army:

From a comparison of the data, it follows that on the eve of the battle, the regular Russian army consisted of:
infantry - 181 battalion - 82,5 thousand
cavalry - 164 squadrons - 20 thousand.
artillery - 56 companies - 105 thousand
engineering troops - 9 companies - 1 thousand
In total, about 114 thousand people. in the ranks.
There are two opinions about the number of Cossack regiments in the literature. KF Tol believed that there were 20 Cossacks regiments (7 thousand people), NP Polikarpov - 23 regiments. In reality, the 1st and 2nd Western armies numbered 29 Cossack regiments, or 150 hundred. Six regiments were in the flanking detachments of F.F.Vincengerode and M.T. Vlasov.
K.F. Toll did not take into account the weak 3rd Bug Cossack regiment, which was in
the convoy of the Main Apartment, two Cossack regiments of the 2nd Army (Komissarov and Bykhalov), sent before the battle to the border of the Kaluga province. However, judging by the award documents, they participated in the battle. In fact, 24 and 26 Aug. in position were 23 Cossack regiments (120 hundred) and 2 Cossack art. companies. The number of Cossacks can be calculated as follows. According to the army report from 17 Aug. 85 hundred and 1 art. the company consisted of 6253 people.
It is not difficult to calculate that in 120 hundreds and 2 companies there were not 7, but about 9 thousand people. By the day of the general battle, the Cossacks were among the same, since there were almost no losses in the hundreds, unlike the infantry.

The numbers are strange. If you calculate, the amounts do not match the totals.
Losses:

... Historians' disputes have centered around three numbers: 58 thousand, 44-46 thousand,
38,5 thousand people

Militia:

In the far right column, there is an obvious print failure.

[BAI]

In the article about the regular army, there is also an obvious typo: there should be 10,5 thousand in artillery, not 105.

[Freeman]

From the article

"In the yard" in 1912, and the peasant plows with a plow ...

Quote: dgonni

in the south at that time they were already plowing with metal plows. And try to guess the manufacturer three times?
okay tell John Deere! Yeah, just the ones that supply tractors to us!

In the above photo, it is also not a plow, but a plow!
Perhaps even the notorious "John Deere", from the early.

But! Most likely, this is "Poltoratsky's plow", developed on the basis of the design of the "Scottish plow" by the Russian enthusiast of introducing progressive methods of farming and agronomy into agriculture, D. M. Poltoratsky at the end of the 18th century.
This plow design was very popular in the central provinces of Russia.

Shl. One of the differences between the plow and the plow is the place of attachment of the harness (the point of application of the "tractive effort") to the tool, the draft animal.
The plow has the upper one, near the handles.

The plow has the lower one, closer to the ground.

[Tavrik]

Fuck! Did not know. Thank. The most informative post of the entire topic.

[kalibr]

Quote: Tavrik

To go nuts!

I join! I also did not know such subtleties.

[Undecim]

I join! I also did not know such subtleties.
And it's good that they didn't know, since the explanation is far-fetched. The main difference between a plow and a plow is that the plow did not turn the soil layer over, but rolled it to the side. Therefore, the plow requires significantly less tractive effort, which is why it was used even in the XNUMXth century. Plowing with a plow on one horse will not work, the horse will not last long.
As for the plow designs, there were several dozen of them - Great Russian or ordinary, Lithuanian, Tver, Vyatka, Siberian, Kongur, North Russian.

North Russian plow with a cross-over police. Perm province.

[Undecim]

The North Russian plow is a roe deer of the Kostroma type. Vyatka province.
As you can see, both the rear ends of the shafts are reinforced in the horn.
But the plowman spends much more energy when using the plow. At the same time, for plowing one tithe with a plow, a plowman covers about 60 kilometers.
The difference in the device depended on local conditions, therefore, already in the Yaroslavl province, the roe plow looked different.

[Freeman]

Undecim Today, 17: 36
North Russian plow - roe Kostroma type.

"Roe" is a "slanting" plow.

Roe deer, its structure and types
The popular word "roe" means actually "oblique" or "something oblique", in this case we will talk about a skew plow.
http://lubovbezusl.ru/publ/istorija/selskoe_khozjajstvo/s/88-1-0-4688

The difference in the device depended on local conditions, therefore, already in the Yaroslavl province, the roe plow looked different.

Sokha is a piece product that each peasant made in his own yard based on his capabilities and needs. There was a proverb: "A plow for a plow, arable land for arable land, a horse for a horse, summer does not look like summer."

[Freeman]

Undecim Today, 17: 28
The main difference between a plow and a plow is that the plow did not turn the soil layer over, but rolled it to the side.

I totally agree - this is point difference.
And I pointed to "one of", since it is not visible in the photo - the share or the opener is using this agricultural tool.

[Undecim]

Sorry, I did not take into account this nuance. Although there are structures in which the shafts are reinforced not at the top in the horn, but in the middle of the dam.

[BAI]

The plow has the lower one, closer to the ground.

I had 2 such plows in the barn (from the previous owners of the house). One passed in metal, one remained.

[3x3zsave]

D. M. Poltoratsky
Perhaps the first Russian agronomist! Brother, Elizaveta Markovna Olenina (married). The son of the infamous "Poltorachikha".

[Desperado]

Quote: Victor Sergeev

The coolest thing was that he really did not lose a single battle, in fact, he did not win, since the Russians always achieved what they wanted: they detained and united near Smolensk, detained and undermined the spirit of Napoleon's army near Borodino, finished off almost without a fight on the Berezina ( captivated) the remains. On the Berezina, he still deceived our people and left ... himself with practically no remnants of the army. The term "Pyrrhic victory" should be replaced with "Napoleonic victory".

Borodino undermined the spirit of the French army? Justify, the battles at Tarutino and Maloyaroslavets do not confirm this. In the battle of Berezina, despite huge losses, Napoleon was able to save the remnants of the guard and the officer corps, which formed the backbone of the new army recruited in 1813.

[Glory1974]

In the battle of Berezina, despite the huge losses, Napoleon was able to save the remnants of the guard and the officer corps, which formed the backbone of the new army, recruited in 1813.

But among the people of France the expression "Berezina" appeared, which means something like "full scribe". Apart from this, then everything was probably fine

[kalibr]

Quote: Desperado

Napoleon was able to save the remnants of the guard

He was no longer there, he left the army ...

[Desperado]

Quote: kalibr

Quote: Desperado

Napoleon was able to save the remnants of the guard

He was no longer there, he left the army ...

Incorrect, the battle at Berezina dates from November 14 (26) - November 17 (29), 1812, and Napoleon left the army on the evening of December 5 (November 23).

[Yasondinalt]

On the monument, which is written in the photo - French / Russian - infantry 145000/85500, cavalry 40000/18200, guns 1000/640. Generals 9/3 were killed, 30/12 wounded. Warriors 20000/15000, injured 40000/30000 Traveled in August this year

[kalibr]

Photos of the monument were given above. But I would recommend the MO website to you. There are data from the Institute of History and RGIA ...

[Yurahip]

On the cover of the anniversary issue of Niva, well, the spitting image of Shpakovsky rides a horse!
Straight mysticism!

[kalibr]

Actually, yes! What big-eyed you are !!! I have not seen. I read it, I thought you are laughing. Looked, enlarged. And that's right, damn it. It happens so ...

[Yurahip]

It's hard not to remember your radiant Face!

[Undecim]

Yes, it seems very much. Maybe Photoshop?

[Andrey Krasnoyarsky]

For some reason, when the aspect ratio is considered, they look only at quantitative indicators, but no one pays attention to the qualitative ones. But with this, the Russian army had significant problems. Kutuzov's report to Emperor Alexander the First says that the greatly thinned army received several regiments of replenishment. After examining him, Kutuzov was horrified, for (I quote)

... consisting in general all of the recruits in a big disadvantage of the headquarters, chiefs and non-commissioned officers, this army would be very unreliable.

According to various sources, from a quarter to a third of the Russian army in the Battle of Borodino consisted of poorly trained or practically untrained soldiers. I hope there are no people among the readers of the Military Review who think that the village goof becomes a soldier at the very moment they put on a uniform and give him a weapon? And these recruits were opposed by the best soldiers in the world, who fought all over Europe. Yes, Russian soldiers were notable for their courage and bravery, but the French are not cowards either. Kutuzov immediately disbanded the sent regiments and distributed the recruits to the old regiments so that the experienced and fired soldiers could at least somehow train this replenishment. Second, the Russians outnumbered the French in guns, but the French had seven long-range guns, and we only have field guns. As a result, French artillery fired at Russian positions from afar, without fear of retaliation. The third - a significant part of the Russian cavalry - the Cossacks. But this cavalry is of little use for a frontal battle, they are good for reconnaissance, sabotage behind enemy lines, sudden raids on marching detachments and pursuit of fleeing ones. And that's not all, but a lot has already happened. In general, according to all the canons of military affairs, the Russian army had to be utterly defeated by the French (as it was in Europe), and that this did not happen is the merit of Kutuzov. Therefore, when the sofa commanders begin to reason that Kutuzov did not command so well and lost incorrectly, I do not support such reasoning.

[VIP]

Quote: kalibr

Have you read Nekrasov, a landowner-poet at school? He wrote about what he saw, but he was appreciated ... And then there is a book by Olga Semenova-Tyan-Shanskaya "LIFE" IVAN. "It is very instructive ... Some peasants loved their landowners, even hid Pugachev from the thief !!!

Not "correct" peasants were. I thought it was literary chatter

[Old warrior]

At the most interesting point. Auto RU "-"

[TooL]

How many schizophrenics ...

[Pavel57]

Here it is the story - everything in numbers, who only to believe.

[fa2998]

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

I myself personally trust the classics. 130 thousand people under the banners of the army of twelve languages ​​against 120 thousand - Russian!

Different data differ by 5-10 thousand, and this is a few percent. But Napoleon crossed the border with 500 thousand, where are the rest, just 75% of the army? Yes, the great expanses of Russia have patted the army cleaner than Borodino!

[Stormsdruttin]

Quote: Rich

wonderful photo of 1908, the work of Sergei Mikhailovich Prokudin-Gorsky

Strange, but this photograph is not in the most complete collection of the restored works of S.M. Prokudin-Gorsky http://prokudin-gorskiy.ru/index.php

[svit55]

Interestingly, foreign sources believe that ours were less. And ours write that there were more of ours. Usually it happens the other way around - there are few of our own, but there are many enemies.

[EvilLion]

Regarding the prisoners. Did the Russian army pick up its wounded so well and quickly? As far as I know, then it was decided to leave the wounded when retreating, since the enemy had to take care of them.

[Indifferent]

I have a book published in 1938. "Napoleon's invasion of Russia". Like the author Tarle, although I may not remember exactly. There, too, the figures are 130 thousand French and 120 thousand ours. With some predominance of guns, we have. I personally do not understand. How could Napoleon, who transferred 600 thousand of the Great Army across the border, bring only 130 thousand to Borodino? Did they "dissolve" across the territory? The losses are interesting there. 44 thousand on both sides killed, wounded and taken prisoner. I also have the memoirs of Russian officers. You read and the hair on your head moves. There was no centralized medical care. The wounded retreated themselves on foot, whoever could move. Many died on the way. Many were taken by the peasants for treatment.

[Alexander Saveliev]

Mr. Shpakovsky, where did you get the idea that the peasant plows with a plow? This is a normal horse plow, not a plow. Such a plow is plowed even now in villages if necessary. Why don't you like him? Was there a lot of tractors in the rest of the world in 1912?

[border]

Quote: Undecim

I join! I also did not know such subtleties.
And it's good that they didn't know, since the explanation is far-fetched. The main difference between a plow and a plow is that the plow did not turn the soil layer over, but rolled it to the side. Therefore, the plow requires significantly less tractive effort, which is why it was used even in the XNUMXth century. Plowing with a plow on one horse will not work, the horse will not last long.
As for the plow designs, there were several dozen of them - Great Russian or ordinary, Lithuanian, Tver, Vyatka, Siberian, Kongur, North Russian.

North Russian plow with a cross-over police. Perm province.

In the Ryazan region, to cultivate personal gardens, everyone who had a horse (including a collective farm horse) plowed the gardens of the SOKHOI (70s). The plowman was more tired than the horse. Because at the end of the furrow it was necessary to lift it by the handles under the palms and "bring" it in the opposite direction. In addition, constantly clear the adhered soil by 2 "horns" and "manually" adjust the plowing depth, raise it in some places and follow the horse at a fast pace. 2-3 vegetable gardens per day for 13-15 furrows of 70-100 meters and a reward: lunch + 3 rubles 62 kopecks or for good work - 4 rubles 12 kopecks. or the equivalent of 0,5 liters of vodka.