"The spear of fate" of the ancient Slavs of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries

The storming of the city by the Slavs. Modern depiction based on the XNUMXth century Milan manuscript. Drawing by the author

foreword

This article continues the cycle about Slavic weapons early period.

In addition to fairly well-known information from written and archaeological sources, analysis of modern historiography, we use data from folklore, mythology, since at this stage of the development of society, weapons, in addition to an understandable utilitarian function, bore the imprint of a person's mental representations of a tribal organization.

Entry

The spear is the oldest weapon and hunting weapon. The emergence of the term "spear" refers to the Proto-Slavic period, it is a product of their own morphological development of the Proto-Slavs.

Along with the spear, other names for this weapon were used in the Slavic language.

Oskop - once mentioned in the Ipatiev Chronicle, a type of spear under 1123, initially a sharpened stake (L. Niederle, Ipatiev Chronicle). Oskep, or oschep, is the name of the spear, which was more used among the Western Slavs.

There is an assumption about the presence of sharpened fired stakes among the Slavs, which were also used in the XNUMXth century. and with which the "bulk (not warriors) of the male population" was armed and before which "neither a shield nor a shell" could resist (Polyakov A.S.).

Ostrog is a term that also refers to the early stories Slavs.

The ancient names for the spear were also "bodilo" and "birth", both go back to the horn, the horns of the cow, that is (presumably) associated with a weapon that could have a horn at the tip. Hence the expression: "do not ask for trouble" (Odintsov GF).

Early written sources tell us about the weak weaponry of the Slavs, but the main among them, at least for the XNUMXth century period, was the javelin.

Tribal society of the Slavs and weapons

This or that weapon, especially in the early historical stages, reflects the state of society. The socio-economic situation of the early Slavs at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. can be characterized as tribal relations and a low level of material culture. The lack of stratification of society does not allow us to speak of any kind of separation of professional soldiers or professional military formations. It is categorically impossible to agree with the attempt to find these structures in the Slavic society in the period we are considering (which we wrote about in our previous works on "VO").

Slav with a throwing spear of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries. Drawing by the author

Throwing spears or javelins were the main, one might say, epic weapon among peoples at this stage of development. It was in the throw of the spear, hitting the target that the will of the gods and the luck of the one who used it were clearly visible (Khlevov A.A.).

The Gothic hero in the battle with the Huns in the "Song of Chlode" of the "Elder Edda" said:

Let Odin direct
A spear, as I said!

It is with this weapon that the birth of a warrior from a successful hunter is associated. By the way, the sword is a symbol of the belligerence of a weapon of another period in the development of society.

Of course, in different historical situations with the specific borrowing of more modern weapons, the situation is different. The Indians of North America, standing at different stages of the tribal system, received small arms and horses, which significantly increased their level of weapons, but did little to help in a clash with a society at a higher stage of development.

If we talk about the situation in Europe during the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries, then certain weapons, in our opinion, reflected the stages of development, the changes of which we cannot trace in detail.

As for the early Slavs, the sources do not give us any information about the spear as a specific symbol and marker of the development of society and its military component. Unlike other types of weapons, but more on that later.

It is in the situation described that we see the modest weapons of the Slavs, with which they appeared on the borders of Byzantium. Procopius of Caesarea writes about this in the 50-60s. VI century

Slavic throwing weapon

To designate the Slavic spear, Procopius used the term acontia (ακόντιον). Some authors translate it into Russian as a dart, others as a spear.

The same description of the weapons of the early Slavs is given by the contemporary of Procopius, John of Ephesus, who wrote his history almost until his death in 586.

He reported that the main weapons of the Slavs were two, three javelins. Such weapons, in his opinion, were the main ones until the 80s of the XNUMXth century. But from this period, the Slavs took possession of the Eastern Roman weapons, as discussed below.

He uses the name Lonhadia (λογχάδία). The translation, which most reflects its essence, sounds like a "spear" (Serikov NI).

I think that this term was not used by John by accident, it goes back to lonche (λόγχή) in Greek, or lancea in Latin. This spear was also used as a throwing one: legions of Lanciarii specialized primarily in throwing spears. And some regiments of Lanciarii, of course, having long lost their specialization, survived until the XNUMXth century.

We are far from thinking to ascribe to John of Ephesus the building of such a far-reaching scheme, but, perhaps, the name that he used was well founded. In this case, lonhadia is a throwing spear shorter than a lonha.

The author of "Strategicon" gives the same description of Slavic copies of the late XNUMXth century, possibly the beginning of the XNUMXth century.

He, listing the necessary equipment for a lightly armed infantryman (psilla), puts next to him a berite and a "Sklavin-type dart" (λογχίδια Σκλαβινίσκια). Byzantine psillas were supposed to use berites.

Berite (berite) was a short throwing spear, larger in size than a dart and different from an aconist dart (άκόντιον (singular)). But less than a throwing lonch.

Comes from the Latin veru, verutus. According to Vegetius, the length of the arrowhead is 5/12 Roman feet ≈ 12,3 cm, the length of the shaft is 3,5 feet ≈ 103 cm. “Verutum, which was originally called vericulum,” wrote P. Connolly, “had a 12 cm long arrowhead and a wooden the shaft is a little longer than a meter. "

We do not know how the tip of the verut looked and how it differs from the tips of darts, but we see that its size was quite small.

The data given by P. Connolly are of a presentation nature and are not a collection of arrowheads of the entire spectrum of small copies found in large numbers in the places of the documented location of Roman troops, for example, in the places of legions' camps. At the moment, the finds of small arrowheads can only be conditionally divided according to their size.

The term "berite" is used in the most archaic, XII part of the "Strategicon", and this Latin-language name is gradually giving way to Greek, more modern terms (V.V. Kuchma).

Javelin tips. End of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries Winter. Ukraine

In the "Tactics" of Leo VI the Wise (870-912), a similar throwing weapon, intermediate between a dart and a full-fledged spear, is called riktaria (ρικτάριον):

"... viritas, which are called riktarii."

Leo VI writes directly that the Slavs were armed with riktarians.

The need for the use of weapons of hostile neighbors, whether it be Mauritanian javelins or spears of the Slavs, was dictated by the specifics of hostilities. The author of "Strategicon" informs about it in his instruction:

You should know that in dense forests, aconists are more suitable than toxotes and slingers, therefore the bulk of psils should be trained in the use of berite and darts.

Akonists, or acontobolists (John Lead), are an intermediate type of troops between heavily armed and lightly armed infantrymen, not characteristic of the military tradition of the Romans, but appearing because of the combat specifics, when the use of a regular battle in a guerrilla war-raid became impossible. Despite the fact that their name comes from the dart, they are not always armed with darts, like psils, but with spears for throwing and, possibly, darts (Kuchma V.V.).

The Slavs, whose skills in war in the forest were natural, were excellent spear throwers. Agathius of Mirinei described such an extraordinary episode of the period of struggle between the Byzantines and the Iranians in 555:

... a certain Svaruna by name, a Slav by origin, threw a spear at the one who did not have time to cover himself and struck him deadly. Immediately the turtle quivered and, scattered, collapsed. The people who were easily killed by the Romans, hitting them with spears, opened up and were left without protection.

The heavy use of throwing weapons was a hallmark of combat at this time:

Into him [the horse. - V.E.] and Belisarius, most of the Goths tried to hit with darts and other throwing weapons on the following basis. The defectors who had gone over to the side of the Goths the day before, seeing Belisarius fighting in the front ranks and realizing that if he dies, then the whole business of the Romans will immediately perish, began to shout, ordering them to try to hit the piebald horse.

And among the Slavs, throwing weapons were the main ones. Therefore, the Slav Svarun, who fought in the ranks of the Romans, using this skill, deftly and accurately threw a spear (δόρυ) at the target.

In 594, a detachment of Slavs, surrounded in a fortification of carts (Karagon or Wagenburg), skillfully fights off the Romans with the help of throwing spears (ακόντια), striking the horses of the Romans, and only the decisiveness of the Byzantine commander allowed the stratiots to break through the defenses of the Slavs.

In 677, during the siege of Thessalonica, the author of The Miracles of St. Dmitry of Thessalonica (ChDS) among the Slavic army separately points to the unit of the Aconists.

It is possible that, along with a short throwing spear, the Slavs could use larger spears. It can be assumed that their number has increased since the beginning of the XNUMXth century. under the influence of ethnic groups and states with which the Slavs had clashes and contacts.

Slavic spears (λόγχή) were mentioned during the siege of the 10-20s of the 705th century. Thessaloniki at the ChDS. There is direct evidence of the use of spears by the Slavs during the battle in the mountains near Friul in XNUMX at Paul Deacon.

But the mass "national" weapon of the Slavs throughout the XNUMXth century, and, most likely, the XNUMXth century, were small throwing spears, smaller than an ordinary spear, but longer and more darts. Vasilevs Leo VI the Wise, also really familiar with the contemporary Slavs of the XNUMXth century, does not write about any other weapon, except for the one mentioned in Mauritius, only denotes it, as we indicated above, in modern terms.

Along with this, we know the ethnos, whose "national" weapon was precisely the long spear - these were the Goths.

The use of one or another type of weapon depended on the material condition of different tribal groups of Slavs.

The use of the same weapon, short spears, by both Antae and Sklavins, indicates a low material level of these tribal unions in the XNUMXth century, which is confirmed archaeologically. And it also testifies that this society has not passed to the stage of "expansion", using hunting tools as a weapon.

A full-fledged spear is an offensive weapon. As part of the Slavs passed at the end of the VI century. and throughout the VII century. from raids and guerrilla warfare to seizures of lands, sieges of fortresses and cities, weapons are also changing.

Archeology about the Slavic spear

Archaeological data do not give us a sufficient idea of ​​the Slavic piercing weapon.

This fact compels researchers to make generalizations against the broad background of the history of Eurasia. There is nothing wrong with this and such a method is quite acceptable if it were used in the presence of extensive archaeological material, for example, as in the case of the Lombard monuments of this period and their comparison with the archaeological finds of Avar weapons.

The few finds of Slavic spearheads were classified into four groups. The picture looks like this:

1. Tip with a leaf-shaped or diamond-shaped point, according to another classification - lanceolate.

2. Small harpoon-like (with teeth) tips (angona).

3. Small tips in the form of a tapered leaf.

4. Small tips with a square section (Kazansky MM).

Classification of throwing tips according to M.M. Kazansky Designations made by the author of the article

Type 1 and 2 - socketed, type 3 and 4 - petiolate. The first type is found everywhere in Europe; within the archaeological cultures of the Slavs, six arrowheads are indicated. Two more of the same spears were in the hoard from Koloskov on Stary Oskol (Rybakov B.A., Lyapushkin I.I., Shuvalov P.V.).

The average length of these medium-sized tips is about 21 cm (20-25 cm), half the length per sleeve. For comparison: the tips of the steppe peaks of this period are of the same size.

In our opinion, a tip from the Surskaya Zabora, near the village. Voloshskaya (Ukraine) falls out of the presented and so rare finds.

If we compare these finds with the early Old Russian ones, then we can say that the continuity is very weak, only type 1 spears can be correlated with type III according to A.N. Kirpichnikov. The authors of the article on Old Russian weapons see in this type a common Slavic origin, with which it is difficult to agree due to the significant prevalence of this type of tip in the period under review in Europe (Kirpichnikov A.N., Medvedev A.F.)

Copy tips. VII century. Koloskovo. Stary Oskol

What was indicated in an earlier work on ancient Russian weapons by A.N. Kirpichnikov, but the opinion that spears of type III according to Kirpichnikov's classification and type I according to Kazansky prevailed in Bulgaria in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries deserves attention.

The presence of such arrowheads among neighboring peoples, the presence of finds that significantly exceed the Slavic ones, do not allow, in our opinion, to interpret this javelin as purely Slavic (Shuvalov P.V.).

If the compiler of the list of Slavic finds of type II arrowheads classifies them as Slavic weapons, then his critics suggest that the Angona-type arrowheads 17-20 cm long were borrowed from neighbors. And their finds are concentrated on the extreme north-western border of the Slavic world (Kazansky M.M., Shuvalov P.V.).

Based on these few finds collected by M.M. Kazansky. and supplemented by P.V. Shuvalov, it is difficult to draw a conclusion about what kind of arrowheads the Slavic throwing weapon actually had, one can only assume that they were of a similar type with the weapons of other peoples. From the listed finds, we do not see anything specific in the weapons, which could prompt the author of the "Strategicon" to point to the use of "Slavic copies".

It can be assumed that they are related to the loncha (λόγχή) by a narrow tip blade, such as in types 3 and 4 according to M.M. Kazansky, with sizes ranging from 15,5 to 19 cm, but in size they are obviously closer to the dart tips.

Lancet arrowheads of the XNUMXth century Museum (camera) of the Hofburg weapons. Vein. Austria. Photo by the author

We also have several finds of spearheads on the territory of Slavic settlements from Zimno, Bliznaki and Nikodimovo (3 points), but they are of Avar or late Hunnic origin, these finds look extremely poor against the background of the same Lombard spearheads borrowed from the Avars (Kazan M.M. .).

The discoverer and researcher of the famous archaeological early Slavic monument Zimno noticed that more weapons were found in this one settlement than in the rest of the territory inhabited by the ancient Slavs (Aulikh V.V.).

Summing up, it should be said that the Slavs, according to written sources, were armed with a specific type of throwing spear, which was written about by all Byzantine authors describing their weapons. Due to their extreme scarcity, archaeological finds do not clearly identify the appearance of this weapon.

Subtotals

We think that the peculiarity of the "Slavic spear" does not lie in the plane of the specifics of their structure. As shown in historiography, Slavic spears were slightly more berite. This size has developed organically in the course of primarily economic activities (hunting) as the most convenient size for throwing.

The originality of the "Slavic spear" was precisely in the method of application. Not in technological features, but in the specifics of the application.

In the case of the analysis of the attitudes of the author of "Strategicon", who instructed the soldiers how to use Sklavin's spears along with berites, we are faced with a logical error of transferring the result (effective use of throwing javelins) from a reason (thrower) to an object or instrument of activity (spear). Those. see efficiency in the spear, not in the thrower.

This distinctiveness consisted in the accuracy of the throw, which, as we see it, was characteristic of a society actively engaged in hunting in the forest zone. Accuracy along with massive use of projectiles. This is the specificity of the "Slavic spear", outwardly, as we see, it did not differ much from other European counterparts.

It is significant, but after the departure from exclusively partisan tactics and raids and the transition to expansion from the end of the XNUMXth and throughout the XNUMXth century. the palm tree among the Slavs goes to the bow, as the sources tell us. The same Mauritius, during the war with the Slavs in the forest, did not recommend the use of toxots (archers), but in the struggle for the seizure of land in the Balkans, the capture of settlements and fortresses from the Slavs, the bow, which was previously a natural tool of management (hunting), comes to the first plan: the arrow strikes further than a spear or spear.

Sources and Literature

PSRL.T.2. M., 1998.
Procopius of Caesarea. War with the Goths. About buildings. Translated by S.P.Kondratyev. T. II. M., 1996.
N.V. Pigulevskaya Syrian Medieval Historiography. Research and translations. Compiled by E.N. Meshcherskaya SPb., 2011.
Strategicon of Mauritius / Translation and commentary by V.V. Kuchma. SPb., 2003.
Flavius ​​Vegetius Renatus. A summary of military affairs. Translation and comments by S.P. Kondratyev, St. Petersburg, 1996.
Leo VI the Wise. Leo tactics. The publication was prepared by V.V. Kuchma. SPb., 2012.
About combat escort. About the structure of the camp. The publication was prepared by V.V. Kuchma. SPb., 2002.
Etymological Dictionary of Slavic Languages.
Proto-Slavic lexical fund. Edited by O.N. Trubachev. Issue 11.M., 1984.
Niederle L. Slavic Antiquities, M., 2013.
Odintsov G.F. On the history of the name of the oldest Russian copies // Etymology. 1977. Ed. J.J. Warbot, L.A. Gindina, G.A. Klimova, V.A. Merkulova, V.N. Toporova, O. N. Trubachev. Moscow: Nauka, 1979.
Polyakov A.S. Warfare among the Slavs in the 2005th-XNUMXth centuries. Abstract dissertation. for a job. scientific degree Ph.D. SPb., XNUMX.
Shuvalov P.V. Urbicius and the "Strategicon" of Pseudo-Mauritius (part 2) // Byzantine Calendar. T. 64.M., 2005.
Connolly P. Greece and Rome. Encyclopedia of Military History / Translated by S. Lopukhova, A. Khromova. M., 2002.
Rybakov B.A. Ancient Rus / SA T. XVII M., 1953.
Kirpichnikov A.N. A.F. Medvedev Armament.
Ancient Russia. City, castle, village. Edited by B.A. Kolchin / Archeology of the USSR. M., 1985.
Kirpichnikov A.N. Old Russian weapons. Archeology of the USSR. Issue 2.M., 1966.
Shuvalov P. V. Weapons of the early Slavs // Cultural transformations and mutual influences in the Dnieper region at the end of the Roman time and in the early Middle Ages, 2004. Volume 11. Proceedings of the Institute for the History of Material Culture. SPb., 2004.
Kazansky M.M. Steppe traditions and Slavic weapons and horse equipment in the 254th-2019th centuries / KSIA. Issue XNUMX.M., XNUMX.
Aulikh V.V. Zimnivske ancient settlement - words of the memorial of VI-VII centuries not. in the Wolin. Kiev, 1972.
Kazanski M. L'armement Slave du haut Moyen-Age (Ve-VII-e siecles).
A propos des chefs militaries et des guerriers professionnels chez les anciens Slavs // Pfehled vyzkumu. No. 39 (1995-1996). Brno.

To be continued ...

Comments

[parusnik]

Thank you for the article, we look forward to continuing ...

[cost]

Thank you, Eduard, for an excellent article as always, wonderful illustrations. and most importantly for this:

.
Provide interesting food for thought for a few days. Great

[Bar1]

Why can't you tell about the spear?

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Bar1

Why can't you tell about the spear?

Hurry, my friend.

Early written sources tell us about the weak weaponry of the Slavs, but the main among them, at least for the XNUMXth century period, was the javelin.

[Bar1]

Etymology
Comes from the art-slav. copyѥ (Greek λύγχη), compare: large. kope, Serbo-Croatian. kòpљe, Slovenian. korjȇ, czech. korí, Slovak. koreija, Polish. koreja, n.-puddles. koreje, associated with digging, from prasslav. * kopātī, from the cat. among other things happened: Ukrainian. digging, bulg. digging, Serbo-Horv. kòpati, kȍpȃm, Slovenian. kopáti, korȃm, Czech. korat, Slovak. korať, Polish., V.-pudd. koraс, n.-puddles. koraś. Wed See also: Latvian. karāns "hoe", Greek. κοπίς "cleaver, dagger", OE. herra, Middle-Eastern German herre "sickle, crooked knife". The data of M. Vasmer's dictionary were used. See References.

Yes, Fasmer is in his repertoire. A spear from digging. To dig with a spear, how stupid you have to be to blunt your weapon on the ground? Why doesn't anyone speak out against this "etymology"? This story is completely at an impasse, with such etymologies, for that don't take it - there are problems everywhere, questions everywhere. It is clear that the weapon of labor with which the earth is dug could not have been a military weapon. And even in appearance it is clear that it is long and narrow. a sharpened spear is not suitable for trenching.

For example in English
- spear-spir, i.e. se / is a feather. Quite understandable origin of the word.

[Slavutich]

Cognitively, and most importantly, a scientific view of the situation is shown, and not an amateur one.

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Slavutich

Cognitively, and most importantly, a scientific view of the situation is shown, and not an amateur one.

The emergence of the term "spear" refers to the Proto-Slavic period, it is a product of their own morphological development of the Proto-Slavs

And what have you learned cognitively about the origin of the term A spear? In addition to highly scientific product of own morphological development of the Pre-Slavs Where are the original words for the appearance of SPEAR, other than a penny and dig.
By the way, the sharpened digging stick may well become the mother of the spear, but the author hid the truth from us or did he not know?

[Slavutich]

You were told in detail, based on scientific works, and not on the speculations of home-grown specialists-reenactors, about the spear of the ancient Slavs, what else is needed?

[betta]

Science is not wrong? Is this a new religion? Although no, she is already several centuries old. The chosenness, the greatness of science, has surpassed religion (in the usual sense). My comment is about science fans, not the above article.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: betta

Science is not wrong? Is this a new religion?

Can't you see the difference between science and religion?
The main difference is rationality. Faith is irrational. It is possible to make a religion out of science, moreover, such attempts have already been made more than once, which, in fact, was only harmful to science. The basis of religion is faith. The foundation of science is doubt. That's the whole difference.

[betta]

I would love to argue, but not in this format.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Trilobite Master

The basis of religion is faith. The foundation of science is doubt.

I doubt religion.

[Liam]

Quote: Mordvin 3

I doubt religion

I hope you have no doubts that 2 × 2 = 4.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Liam

I hope you have no doubts that 2 × 2 = 4.

Not at all.

[pmkemcity]

And the author's "Slav" is typical of our Bunsha, ugh, you look like a hutsul!

[ee2100]

And even in galoshes

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: ee2100

And even in galoshes

He probably remembered our president and is ready to project his thoughts into the Stone Age.

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: ee2100

And even in galoshes

This is nothing, the Slav still stole the pants of the Mongols! Before their invasion, here is a thief. True, I knitted the woolen socks myself, but where did this lamb's muzzle steal? In the 6th century, not honest farmers lived, but "Vague doubts prevail, Shpak has a tape recorder, the ambassador has a medallion" The Greeks got their pants from us, not from the Mongols.

[ee2100]

Now I know where the saying "With the world on a string ....." came from

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: ee2100

Now I know where the saying "With the world on a string ....." came from

Exactly, she went from VO, section "History".

[ee2100]

Now the most important thing is to quickly register the rights to discover this phenomenon!

[Polymer]

Quote: pmkemcity

And the author's "Slav" is typical of our Bunsha, ugh, you look like a hutsul!

Self portrait?

[cost]

Author:The ancient names for the spear were also "bodilo" and "birth", both go back to the horn, the horns of the cow, that is (presumably) associated with a weapon that could have a horn at the tip. Hence the expression: "do not ask for trouble" (Odintsov GF).

a photo Bone spears (arrowheads and spears). "Imenkovskaya culture"

Imenkovskaya culture is an early medieval archaeological culture of the IV-VII centuries, located on the territory of the Middle Volga region (Samara region, Tatarstan, Mordovia, Chuvashia, Ulyanovsk region). Many researchers see the Imenkov culture as the Proto-Slavs. In 1981, G. I. Matveeva revealed the kinship of the Imenkov and Zarubinets cultures. Most of all, the Imenkovskaya culture is close to the Polesie forest variant of the Zarubintsy culture
The tribes of the Imenkovsk culture occupied the territory from the right bank of the Lower Kama to the mouth of the Samara River, from the middle reaches of the Sura to the middle reaches of the Belaya River. The culture got its name from the first most fully studied settlement near the village of Imenkovo, Laishevsky district of Tatarstan. After the arrival of the Bulgars in the Middle Volga region, in the second half of the XNUMXth century, the monuments of the Imenkovites disappeared. It is suggested that some of the Imenkovites dissolved in the newcomers, some went to the west, becoming part of the Volyntsev culture

[cost]

Dear Edward, why don't you mention owls, horns and spears. Can they be classified as spears too? Pole arms after all
Although: In the "Ipatiev Chronicle" under 1256 it is said: "He is a warrior, rule his doom, remove his horn from his belt, far away, slay the Yatvyazh prince from his horse." Here the hornet (horny, horny) at first glance appears to be a light throwing weapon, something like a sulica, worn in a belt body. However, according to AN Kirpichnikov, based on the same Ipatiev Chronicle, this weapon is of a shock-crushing type like a club or a club: “In the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries. objects of this kind, which served for military purposes, had the name hornet, cornea, hornet, hornet. In battle, they tried to hit him on the head with a rogditsa (worn at the waist) and even threw it at the enemy. " Kirpichnikov also states that the word is of Greek origin, but Sreznevsky does not have this: “Rogeditsa, rogditsa, rogtitsa - club, stick, club”.
P.P. von Winkler probably mistakenly equated the horn with a spear (?).
Moreover, in Polish, the word rohatyna ("spear") is borrowed from Russian, and rogacina means an arrowhead in heraldry.
In Veliky Novgorod there is a street called Rogatica, in Bosnia - the town of Rogatica

[cost]

After all, the Slavic ownya (old lit.-sovi), according to Kirpichnikov, is a typical weapon of commoners. This is an everyday mower knife or chopper, used for splitting splinters, chopping coal in a stove and other household purposes, having a short sleeve with an edging and a sharpened point , in connection with which it cannot be ruled out that "in dashing times" they could be attached to the shaft and used as a weapon
a photo Mower knife for splitting splinters,Found by an archaeological expedition near Moscow at the village of Tarasovka

[mihaylov]

Quote: Rich

After all, the Slavic owny (old lit.-Sovi) - according to Kirpichnikov, is a typical weapon of commoners.

Good afternoon, now there is a tendency to deny the existence of such a weapon as an owl. The "bullet" about the existence of such weapons was launched by Viskovatov, but this is the 19th century.
Documentary evidence of the use of such weapons was not found. Yes, there are numerous finds of knives for splitting a splinter of the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries, for example, they are often sold at any "digging" auctions, but were they used as weapons?

"in hard times" they could be attached to the shaft and used as a weapon

This is quite possible and even logical, but it is more likely the use of household equipment for other purposes (like a pitchfork or braid). However, this is only an assumption, as far as I remember there is no such evidence.
So, the existence of such a type of weapon as an owl is a big question, most likely a hypothetical design of the 19th century, then there were many of them.

[cost]

Good afternoon, now there is a tendency to deny the existence of such a weapon as an owl.

Yes, there is such a tendency. And VE Korshun and AN Chubinsky launched it. Their main argument is that the sample of weapons that could serve as a prototype for Viskovatov's drawings is currently unknown.
But I'm thinking. Why?
A mower knife, which is available in every home ... Roughly forged contraption made of scrap iron. I could lie in every hut, at the threshold - pinch splinters, chop a weed piglet, scrape off dirt from bast shoes at the entrance from the street ... But if you attach this thing to a pole and tweak the point a little, you get a ready-made weapon for the militia. Moreover, the weapon is quite serious.
Technically, the owl, as it is represented, is the same naginata. The idea of ​​attaching something piercing-chopping to a long shaft - it suggests itself. Chinese halberds, naginats, protazans, palms of northern peoples - they all appeared in this way. So why the early Slavs are more flawed than their neighbors?

[cost]

It is very difficult today to determine with certainty when this weapon appeared in Russia. The first mentions of the owl, or rather, of an analogue similar to it in descriptions, date back to the 10th century. In total, the owl (owl, weasel) was in service with the Russian troops from the 14th to the 17th century.
Weapons have not become very widespread, on the contrary, they are considered rare. Scientists came to this conclusion only because very few samples were found during excavation of settlements. The small number of finds led them to the conclusion that they did not pay attention to the outside.
With the help of the Sovny, it was possible to easily and quickly turn a simple peasant and artisan into a volunteer or militia. The peasants called her affection, from the word "slash". They said that she could caress, and hit, and cut. As a rule, the peasants and artisans themselves forged these weapons for themselves. Perhaps there were even some general standards, since the samples found fit into a certain scheme.

[mihaylov]

Quote: Rich

With the help of Sovni, it was possible to easily and quickly turn a simple peasant and artisan into a volunteer or militia

I totally agree, but that's what we're talking about. This is not an "army" (I put it in quotes), but a militia, that is, in reality it could only be used in a staff, along with axes, etc. And that is purely hypothetical. I can't imagine the warriors, the children of the boyars, the squeakers, the archers, etc. with this.

Technically, the owl, as it is presented, is the same naginata. The idea of ​​attaching something piercing-chopping to a long shaft - it suggests itself. Chinese halberds, naginats, protazans, palms of northern peoples

Apparently, analogies were the reason for this reconstruction.

The first mentions of the owl, or rather, of an analogue similar to it in descriptions, date back to the 10th century.

10th century -? I am plagued by vague doubts. What kind of evidence?

In total, the owl (owl, weasel) was in service with the Russian troops from the 14th to the 17th century.

And there are questions to this thesis.
Otherwise, do not think that I somehow find fault, but I doubt that this existed in Russia precisely as a type of weapon like a saber, spear, battle ax, sword, etc. or like the same halberd, for example, which has become an independent type of weapon. Yes, the militia probably could, and probably did, but it was the militia.

[cost]

mihaylov interested?

10th century -? I am plagued by vague doubts. What kind of evidence?

The word "owls" in the plural is found in the list of the First Novgorod Chronicle:
... and "fled in fear, marking weapons and shields and owls"

In total, the owl (owl, weasel) was in service with the Russian troops from the 14th to the 17th century.

A. V. Kulagin uses the term "ownya" in relation to a sample of weapons from the Uglich State Historical, Architectural and Art Museum. This is a polearm that has a socketed tip with a short curved iron, and its concave side is sharpened. The tip is made of substandard low carbon steel. It dates from the beginning of the XNUMXth century and is associated with the Time of Troubles - according to Kulagin's assumption, it belonged to one of the ordinary militias.

Otherwise, do not think that I somehow find fault, but I doubt that this existed in Russia

Yes, I do not think that you find fault.
Unfortunately, I cannot give you an exact answer on the name of the weapon and when it appeared. There are more questions than answers. I just expressed my guess. Here the word is for specialists-historians

[3x3zsave]

Naginata, this is not a polearm. If you follow the Japanese tradition, so does the owl.

[cost]

I welcome you dear Anton
Of course the naginata is not a polearm!
You didn't quite understand my assumption.
Here is the mower knife

But the naginata on the handle of which an additional lengthening is worn

.
The idea of ​​attaching a shaft to the mower's blade - it suggests itself. Chinese halberds, de long naginatas, protasans, palms of northern peoples - they all appeared that way. So why are the Slavs more defective than others? They could well have thought of this.
So I made the assumption that Viskovatov, drawing his owl, proceeded precisely from this
fig. Viskovatova "Warrior with an owl"

[Trilobite Master]

It is necessary to distinguish "weapons" from "items used as weapons". A weapon is an item specially made to inflict damage on something alive - and for nothing else. It is inconvenient to cut bread with a stiletto, chop wood with a chisel, and loosen the earth with a pick.
However, a spear and an ax, transplanted to a long shaft or ax, become weapons, since hunting with a long spear or cutting logs with an ax with a long ax is just as inconvenient as cutting bread with a stylet.
And there are also dual-use items that were originally made taking into account their use both in peaceful labor and in war, for example, a cleaver, scramasax, all kinds of bows ...
As for the owl, it is possible that this is exactly the case when the object used in the household had design features that made it possible to quickly turn it into a weapon. Although, to be honest, I do not understand why the farm needs a special knife for splitting torch.

[mihaylov]

Quote: Trilobite Master

Although, to be honest, I do not understand why the farm needs a special knife for splitting torch.

But they were ...
And by the way, I was not interested in this issue, but why do I suppose that basically these are knives of a rather late subject: I think mainly of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries, although there may be earlier copies.

As for the owl, it is possible that this is exactly the case when the item used in the household had design features that made it possible to quickly turn it into a weapon.

As well as, for example, the usual "peasant" ax. I'm actually talking about this: some kind of staff could do it (theoretically), but the military class could not.

[Denimax]

It seems to me suitable as an ideal weapon if you have to fight off a pack of wolves in the forest. A few strong slashing blows can scare the flock away. To begin with, as a demonstration, you can chop a young tree, probably not bad and will understand the consequences. )

[Mavrikiy]

Author:

"Bodilo" and "labor"both ascend to the horn, the horns of the cow,

Maybe a cow and a sacred animal on the farm means a lot for the household and family, but for war? ..... The horn of a bull, the horn of a tur, bison or other respected "fighter" is more suitable. Not a zootechnician, but I think the horn of a bull should be different from that of a cow in strength. I don't see much benefit Dill theory before Norman.

Quote: Rich

cornea, cornea, horned, horned

Quote: Rich

Rogeditsa, Rogditsa - a club, a stick, a club. "

Eh, mulberry two ways:
1. Horn is a piercing weapon. And a whole gamut of weapon names indicates this. A club-stick can also get this "horn" root if several stabbing tips from the horns are attached to the club.
2. Horn - the root indicating battle, death. This is what the founding word indicates vorog.

[Undecim]

Horn is a root indicating battle, death. This is what the foundational word vorog indicates.
Bar 1, do you have multiple logins?

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Undecim

Bar 1, do you have multiple logins?

Stone wall, ay, can you hear me? Looks like she left for lunch.

[Undecim]

Yeah, also a "stone wall". Thanks I'll know.

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Undecim

Yeah, also a "stone wall". Thanks I'll know.

The main thing to remember is looking through the wall. Bara1 seems to have already won? He has 10 lives.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Mavrikiy

Eh, mulberry two ways:

Yes, either continue to ignore you as a harmless, not very gifted folk historian with pronounced New Chronological inclinations, which I have done so far, or still respond to your opuses, since you give an abundance of reasons to mock yourself. I still preferred the first, but you seem to insist on the second, too often, after reading another provocative nonsense in this section, I see your nickname above it.

Quote: Mavrikiy

The horn is a piercing weapon.

Do you know what you are writing?

Quote: Mavrikiy

Alka-cudgel can also get this root "horn" if several stabbing tips from the horns are attached to the cudgel.

Linguistics came into play ... No, apparently, Fomenko is indestructible.
Maybe you can explain to us the origin of words such as "pie". I'm afraid even to imagine where your wild imagination will lead you if I tell you this parallel: horn - horn - face.

Quote: Mavrikiy

Horn is a root indicating battle, death.

Where do you get this from, and in such a final form? Here, right, he said - cut it off! Why not the other way around - life, ryedenier?

Quote: Mavrikiy

This is what the foundational word vorog indicates.

Beforehorn morock inhornу
Wants inhorn yourshornу
Didn't have time to finish pi horn
Hooked on byhorn
And now in great dismay
Stands cancer beforehorne.

What do you think these "horns" point to?

[Catfish]

The horn is a piercing weapon.

Hi Michael
It may not be worth emphasizing, but for someone the horns, in a certain situation, can become a weapon ... in the absence of anything more worthwhile at hand.

[Trilobite Master]

Greetings, Konstantin.

- I sleep with your wife!
- Yes I ... yes I do not know what I will do with you!
- Well, butt ...

So what?

[Catfish]

- Well, butt ...

... If this works out...

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Trilobite Master

The horn is a piercing weapon.
Do you know what you are writing?

You know what you read, no? So, this is to the doctor. Horn is the root of the word, which carries the meaning of "weapon" And if then do not get confused

Linguistics went into action ... No, apparently, Fomenko is indestructible.

Greetings from A.S. Pushkin: "cart (from the word Taurus - the carts are harnessed by oxen) "Poor Pushkin, he did not have time to get a tub of mud from the highly cultured fossil Troglobit.
A distinctive feature of a boor is arrogance and meanness, with which I congratulate you.
As for the rhyme problem, thanks , I'll think about it. But already now we can firmly say that Дорога к horn has nothing to do with it. The position of the root in the word matters.
Road, cart, leg, Volga, Onega, alarm, stega, slega, snow

(lit. sniegas, Old English snechta, Skt. snihyati

- have a common root - ha signifying movement, and if you do not see it, do not hear it and do not understand, these are your personal problems.
Hi Fomenko, you seem to know him well.

[Edward Vashchenko]

Maybe there is a cow and a sacred animal on the farm

For understanding: the cow is a sacred animal among the Indo-Europeans, the period of expansion of the ancient Aryans.
Remained sacred (since then) among the Hindus, even their Krishna (a typical leader of the "heroic" period of the Aryan tribes) has a pier of Govinda.
Govinda, read Old Russian "beef", our "beef" is a cow
A lot of works have been devoted to this issue.
And you are a tour, bison, bison

And about the "khutor" - among the ancient Scandinavians - "khutor", the center of the world, Odin lives on a khutor ... not near Dikanka
This is for the development of erudition

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

What will we do with the threshold !!!

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

What will we do with the threshold !!!

Learn materiel. Threshold - don't you see the road? This is to an optometrist or another specialist.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Based on your fabrications above - in the word "horn" - "ha" (Movement) is not, there is only "g"! Where is the connection?
Live easier and read smart books - a horn is a horn, a spear is a derivative of a horn !!! The rest is from the onion.

[Edward Vashchenko]

Dmitry,
good day,
the article is devoted to the earliest information about the spear of the Slavs,
we know about the earlier situation only hypothetically.
Therefore, there is nothing about the spear.
Perhaps one of the commentators believes that a person engaged in ancient weapons is not aware of the "Historical Description of Clothes and Weapons of Russian Troops" volume 1, I publish pictures from it.
A. N. Kirpichnikov, by the way, with whom I underwent archaeological practice, mentions early weapons in slip. And it is clear why, there is very little material, little linguistic data, that's what we are talking about.
Armament has evolved, but this does not mean that having weapons of the 13th century, we can extrapolate it to the 6th century.
Best regards

[cost]

Thanks for the detailed explanation
Best regards

[Edward Vashchenko]

Always happy to answer.
Best regards

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Thank you Edward for the article. I didn't have time to parse it, but I read it with pleasure!
Good night!

[Operator]

The Avar author has his own Avar logic: "In 594, a detachment of Slavs, surrounded in a fortification of carts (Karagon or Wagenburg), skillfully fights off the Romans with the help of throwing spears", - well, purely specifically Slavic partisans who left the forest

All the inventions of the Avar author about European weapons at the beginning of our era are not worth a damn.

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Operator

All the inventions of the Avar author about European weapons at the beginning of our era are not worth a damn.

Very controversial. Testicular author, baked a glorious dissertation. And on its basis, these opuses are riveted.

[Operator]

The author fell victim to his own indoctrination - like the ancestors of the Slavs landed from Mars and immediately rushed into the woods to make digging sticks

The total lack of understanding of the ethnic and cultural connection of the Slavs with their ancestors, the Aryans, who settled in Central (second after the Illyrians) and Eastern Europe (the first settlers) several thousand years before the arrival of the Celts, Scythians, Sarmatians, Finno-Ugric and all sorts of different Turkic-speaking to the European subcontinent.

Therefore, the author drowns for his relatives the Avars, who disappeared like obry.

[Undecim]

Reading the author's articles, one question arises all the time.

In the XNUMXth century, the Slavs already occupied a rather vast territory from the Baltic in the north to the Black Sea in the south. Really, in such a space, the Slavs did not have any differentiation in culture, life, weapons? After all, cultural contacts with neighbors took place.
The author has given a certain academic flavor to the question of the Greek designation of the spear.
To designate the Slavic spear, Procopius used the term acontia (ακόντιον).
An unprepared reader may get the impression that Procopius has a special term for Slavic copies. In fact, in Greek, ακόντιον is a throwing spear, regardless of "nationality".
λογχίδια Σκλαβινίσκια is translated simply - "spears of the sklavins". An attempt to find a certain Slavic type of spear between a spear and a dart also looks somewhat artificial, since this is a completely natural division. The same Roman ghast spear had three varieties - a long one, used for hand-to-hand combat; a short spear designed for both hand-to-hand combat and throwing at the enemy and a short and light spear designed exclusively for throwing.
That is, the choice of something in between a "clean" spear and a dart, if this is your only weapon, looks completely natural without any Slavic exclusivity.
Well, about the "peculiarity of the use" of Slavic copies - this is somehow not even serious.

[ee2100]

According to the author, it turns out that the Slavs lived in some kind of vacuum. And digging sticks did not go further in their development.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: ee2100

According to the author, it turns out that the Slavs lived in some kind of vacuum. And digging sticks did not go further in their development.

Some didn't go. And someone splits the core and builds spaceships.
You will decide which period you mean. For example, in the IX century. the Slavs already have their own state and, most likely, more than one. I think that when you strictly define the time period about which you will talk, the overwhelming majority of questions will leave you.
As for the digging stick, it is unlikely that in the history of the Slavs there was such a period when they were limited to this tool, since as an ethnos they formed during the Roman Empire.

[ee2100]

You do not understand for some reason do not like my comments. Maybe I offended you in some way. If so then sorry.
By my comment, I agreed with the opinion of Undesim. It is higher than mine.
And you write to me something, the division of the kernel, etc.
https://youtu.be/eXT0cfvCZww
Something like that.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: ee2100

You do not understand for some reason do not like my comments.

Not at all. It's just that I often disagree with them.
Perhaps I misunderstood you, but in this case it seemed to me that you want to reproach the author for underestimating the level of development of the Slavic ethnos, so to speak. I did not notice this "understatement" and asked you to clarify, in order to avoid unnecessary disputes, which period in the history of the Slavs do you mean.
The content of the commentary by a colleague of Undecim, known in the world as Viktor Nikolaevich, seems to me somewhat different and did not cause any objections to me.
I'll clarify for clarity:
Viktor Nikolaevich asked the author of the article about the differentiation of the Slavs in connection with their extensive and different cultural ties and expressed his position on the binding of Greek terms to Slavic subjects.
You have developed the question of the cultural ties of the Slavs and the inevitability as a result of this emergence of differences between them into the thesis of the alleged Slavic inferiority (this is the only way I can evaluate the passage about the "digging stick"). This provoked my objection, since I did not notice any hints of something similar from the author.
Well, about "splitting" (good typo ) kernels are just ... as if opposing a digging stick, or something ... You exaggerated, so did I.
For my part, believe me, there are no personal antipathies or sympathies for you - only an exceptionally dissimilarity of views on various issues.

[ee2100]

Have a nice one you too!

[Undecim]

And someone breaks the core
Do you have information that Otto Hahn and Fritz Strassmann have Slavic roots?

[Undecim]

For example, in the IX century. the Slavs already have their own state and, most likely, more than one.
As many as two - Velikomoravskoe and Kievan Rus. And if you do not find fault with the presence of the Avar contingent, then Danube Bulgaria can be added here.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Undecim

As many as two - Velikomoravskoe and Kievan Rus.

Kievan Rus is still the XNUMXth century, but I did not think about the Great Moravian principality, I was fixated on the Eastern Slavs. Then at least two - Moravia and Ladoga with Novgorod. Plus the hypothetical states of the Krivichi (Gnezdovo), Polyan (Kiev) and Mary with Vyatichi (Sarskoe settlement).

[Undecim]

Kievan Rus is still the XNUMXth century,
How is X? And the Bertino Annals? And Rurik and Oleg?

[Trilobite Master]

Traditionally, it is believed that Kievan Rus dates back to the moment Oleg was established in Kiev, isn't it? Before Oleg, there was certainly something there, but what exactly and for how long is still impossible to say. Perhaps the glades had their own state before Oleg. Also, it is possible that the same states were in the upper reaches of the Dnieper and in the upper reaches of the Volga, and that they arose earlier or simultaneously with the state of the Ilmen Slovenes in Ladoga.
The Bertin annals tell us about the "Dews Khaganate", but in no way localize it in space. Was, and where? What was it? Lebedev, for example, believed that his (kaganate's) capital was the present-day Gnezdovo, someone located it (kaganate) in Kiev, there is a hypothesis that it was located on the Volga, or in the Ladoga area.
In any case, already two Byzantine gold coins from the time of the notorious embassy of the "kagan of the dews" have been found in Gnezdovo, and not in Kiev, in Ladoga or at the Sarsk settlement.

[Undecim]

Traditionally, it is believed that Kievan Rus dates back to the moment Oleg was established in Kiev, isn't it?
Quite right, 882, IX century.

[Trilobite Master]

Okay, I agree.
I have something with my memory today - I forgot about the Moravian principality, then I confused the Kiev campaign with the Constantinople one ...
They will remind me of the Bulgarian kingdom here now and there will be a general ... beating ... I'll go and hide in a corner until it starts ... It's not my day today.

[Edward Vashchenko]

For understanding, Kievan Rus is a historiographic construction of the 30s of the 19th century, nowadays it is not used in the historiography of the pastern, a more adequate term is used - Ancient Rus, although, of course, no one forbade it to be used, but the concept that was still put into this meaning 50 years ago, and even more so at school, of course not.
Scientifically correct to speak Ancient Russia.
Viktor Nikolaevich, the Danube Bulgaria was probably mistaken with the proto-Bulgarian, not the Avar "contingent".

[Engineer]

In the XNUMXth century, the Slavs already occupied a rather vast territory from the Baltic in the north to the Black Sea in the south. Really, in such a space, the Slavs did not have any differentiation in culture, life, weapons? After all, cultural contacts with neighbors took place.

This is one of the phenomena of early Slavic culture. Spread over a vast area, it is surprisingly monolithic. The early Slavic cultures of Prague-Korczak and Penkovskaya are similar as siblings. Burials without inventory, domination of cremations, molded pottery, semi-dugouts. These are branded markers of the early Slavs.
For centuries, the Slavs lived side by side with the same Germans (Chernyakhov and Pshevorskaya cultures) but stubbornly refused to borrow anything from them in marketable quantities. Exceptions can be counted on one hand. Only the finger brooches of the ants and gepids came to my mind (but here the difference is that the ants have single ones, and the gepids have paired ones)
This is just one of the many mysteries that our ancestors pose to researchers.
In addition, judging by the data of comparative linguistics, the Slavic language in the 4th-6th centuries was also very homogeneous.
PS From memory, in the 6th century the Slavs did not come out to the Baltic Sea.

[Operator]

The monolithicity of the Slavs was ensured by the constant internal migration of individual tribes within a single region of residence. Odra - Nysa - Sudetenland - Danube - Don - Volga - Pechora - Ladoga - southern Baltic. The ancestors of the Slavs came to the coast of the last in the 7th millennium BC. For comparison: the Finno-Ugric peoples came to this region from beyond the Urals at the beginning of our era.

[Edward Vashchenko]

An attempt to find a certain Slavic type of spear between a spear and a dart also looks somewhat artificial, since this is a completely natural division.

Cite a scientific source when writing such conclusions with aplomb.
This is your personal opinion, and historiography has been saying the opposite for over a hundred years:

about the "peculiarity of the use" of Slavic copies - this is somehow not even serious.

[Undecim]

No aplomb.
Indicate scientific source
The scientific source of what is the appearance in the process of evolution of the spear as a weapon of various specialized, shall we say, varieties? Am I at a loss to start with Schoeningen?
and historiography has been saying the opposite for over a hundred years
All historiography or some part of it?

[Edward Vashchenko]

Victor Nikolaevich,
to argue on this topic, you need to know.
What you do not observe. To argue that the term "Slavic spear" is not discussed in the historiography dedicated to the "Stratigikon" or the early Slavs, more than a hundred years is nowhere else.
And the spears and evolution - did you personally observe this process or did eyewitnesses suggest?
There are no references to scientific research and historical sources - no science, only idle speculation.
Good evening

[Undecim]

To argue that the term "Slavic spear" is not discussed in the historiography dedicated to the "Stratigikon" or the early Slavs, more than a hundred years is nowhere else.
Firstly, I did not claim that it is not discussed.
Secondly, the fact that it is being discussed does not prove the presence of a certain special Slavic variety of the spear, which has some specific structural elements inherent only to the Slavs and determining a special, exclusively Slavic way of using it. If you prove otherwise, I would be grateful.
All the best.

[Edward Vashchenko]

Dear Victor Nikolaevich,
you read, forgive or inattentively, or with a "claim", and then ask6 to prove something.
I repeat.
This term has been discussed in historiography for a long time.
The researchers who translated "Satyricon" and other authors (those about the spear) were not all obvious and understandable.
To you, who, as I understand it, is not a translator from ancient Greek, everything is clear right away.
Doesn't it seem strange? if those who are trying to figure it out didn't translate, you wouldn't even know about it? As well as other "commentators" -operators.
Further, I wrote: this one was thinking about this toto, this one, archeology provides such material, and ...
I emphasized my opinion ten times, as is customary in scientific historiography: in my opinion, this is just an assumption.
And yes, I also checked the texts of the originals.
And you on the move: there is nothing to discuss here!
The scale is incomparable, but it's all the same to say: the earth is not round, my eyes confirm this.

I do not intend to change my mind, everyone judges their own way, but the position, to put it mildly, is not correct.
Best regards,

[Edward Vashchenko]

Fixes automatically - "Strategicon"

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

VikNik maybe the notorious Slavic spear is "sulitsa"?

[Operator]

Obry, in their feeble mind, do not understand anything about sulitsa (functional analogue of pilum)

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Andrei, do not "play the fool." And so every second person tries to insert a minus for you. If I had not known you for almost five years, I myself could not resist a couple of times.
I myself am sometimes rude, but a constructive argument is always better than a banal shit. I understand that some members of the forum cannot do otherwise, but if you want to, you can discuss not without "needles", but in a normal and productive wave.
If thoughtful. The Avars did not know about pilum, but the Byzantines applied it to the right and to the left. So, one of the Byzantines definitely mentioned the "pilums of the Slavs".
There are two options, or the Roman pilum finally degenerated into a metal "pin" for throwing with a swing of the hand from below, or the sulitsa was originally a hunter's short spear, which can be used to smack a boar and throw it at the enemy. By the tenth century, it could naturally degenerate into an ordinary dart.

[Operator]

The Slavs were deeply purple, what the Romans used there and what the Byzantines wrote about - the throwing weapon sulitsa is a Slavic invention. Sulitsy were used for hunting wild boar, deer and other medium-sized game at a distance of up to 30 meters, which corresponded to the distance of visibility in the forest thicket. Simultaneously, the streets were a means of breaking gaps in the ranks of the enemy armed with shields. After that, the Slavs could begin their crown action - hand-to-hand combat with axes and swords.

P, S. There is no need to be Slavophobic and puff out humanitarian cheeks in an attempt to reconstruct technology - then "foolishness" will not be required.

[Undecim]

Or maybe a jid?

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

I may be wrong, but the jid is after the invasion of Batu. Mention of the streets before the X-XI century.

[Undecim]

You are not mistaken. I mean, such weapons existed almost all over the world.

[Undecim]

The ancient names for the spear were also "bodilo" and "birth", both go back to the horn, the horns of a cow, that is, (presumably) associated with a weapon that could have a horn tip. Hence the expression: "do not ask for trouble" (Odintsov G.F.)
Why exactly cows and not a tur or bison? "Horn" - literally - whatever sticks out. But not only the horns of the cows stick out.
In the Bulgarian language, bodilo has survived to this day, it means a thorn, a thorn. Agree that the una thorn spear looks more like a cow horn.
And the birth is a stick, sharpened on both sides, for carrying the cops from the mowing to the place of stacking.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

And the birth is a stick, sharpened on both sides, for carrying the cops from the mowing to the place of stacking.

We call them "horses".
Interestingly, after several millennia, when mankind will master gravity, space and teleportation, what our descendants will broadcast about an artifact in the form of a plate with the inscription "do not stand under the arrow" !!!

[Undecim]

It all depends on who finds the sign. If the author, they will broadcast about the arrow of fate of the Slavic type.

[Denimax]

tip length 5/12 Roman feet ≈ 12,3 cm, shaft length 3,5 feet ≈ 103 cm

More suitable for the role of a cheap surrogate for the rapier sword.

[pytar]

Judging by the state of such an important element of material culture for the existence of peoples, as a weapon, it turns out that early Slavic societies were primitive, backward in comparison with their neighbors! And all the different theories about some kind of "Slavic-Aryan great civilizations" are speculation, speculation or have nothing in common with the Slavs ?!

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: pytar

theories about some kind of "Slavic-Aryan great civilizations" are speculation, speculation or have nothing in common with the Slavs ?!

They have nothing to do not only with the Slavs, but also with common sense.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: Trilobite Master

Quote: pytar

theories about some kind of "Slavic-Aryan great civilizations" are speculation, speculation or have nothing in common with the Slavs ?!

They have nothing to do not only with the Slavs, but also with common sense.

Of course they have nothing to do with science.
However, psychiatrists study similar "visions".

Here, dear ones, I'm ready to argue with you! Objectively, what should be considered greatness?
The ancestors of the Indo-Europeans laid the foundation for the language of the same name, the descendants of which are spoken by half of the globe? Put it down! Is it greatness? I think yes! Can you be proud that you speak one of the Indo-European languages? The answer is obvious.
The trouble is different, when I try to attract the justification of nationality, blood, soil and other rubbish to such an achievement! We will never know who invented the wheel, saddled the horse, cast the copper ax. It is not possible a priori to assess their achievement, we can simply assume.
A similar situation with super-duper-Slavs-blond-Aryans? Drawing them virtual merits, unwinding DNA spirals, we score one! Civilization is not only a pot, but also a potter's wheel. And the potter's wheel is a material component that leaves traces for everyone.
So greatness can be in a pot in which you can cook borscht on a fire, and not in a wooden deck into which hot stones are thrown. You don't have to live in the Empire, pay taxes and serve in the army for this.
Sincerely, Your Vlad!

[Edward Vashchenko]

And all the different theories about some kind of "Slavic-Aryan great civilizations" are speculation, speculation or have nothing in common with the Slavs ?!

Of course they have nothing to do with science.
However, psychiatrists study similar "visions".

[Free wind]

It's just a shame that the history of Egypt, Greece, etc., their gods, many thousand years of history has been preserved. All ours have been thoroughly destroyed. Because it is heresy, because it is against the government, against the church. The Vatican carefully preserved all the records and chronicles, despite all the quirks. Our church has destroyed everything. Horn, trouble, trouble, why. Erysipelas, erysipelas, a woman in labor, maybe just do not trample the crops, and do not go to arms. As they say now: with a bare bottom, on tanks. Just a mockery, I think that before people were with humor, but to trample the crops of rye is to doom people to hunger, for this they can fill their faces. The horns, at least for the beef that I saw, are the same in strength as that of cows and bulls, and they are relatively soft, it is much better to make some kind of handicrafts from the horn, bones, stone, much stronger. Splitting the tibia lengthwise, grabbing the brains, and tying a stick into the recess is much more convenient, and the weapon is sharper and stronger .. Yes, and the Neanderthals were still able to communicate with stone weapons. I do not think that the Proto-Slavs, after 50 thousand years, have grown dull. As for the spear-darts, they seemed to be thrown like that, but there were also spear-throwers. And in childhood we tied a piece of sharpened reinforcement to a stick about 50 cm long, and a piece of fluffed rope to the other end of the stick. They threw it by grasping a rope, or by the end of a stick. In the first case, it flew longer, in the second, more precisely. The rope probably played the role of a stabilizer, the stick did not tumble too much, it stuck steadily into the walls of the coats.

[Edward Vashchenko]

It's just a shame that the history of Egypt, Greece, etc., their gods, many thousand years of history has been preserved.

And it is just as offensive that there is autumn, that he was born not in summer, but in winter, or vice versa. Not a year earlier or later and vice versa.
History is a process in which, among other things, ethnic groups go through stages from birth to death.
Where are the ancient Egyptians or the ancient Greeks?
So the Slavs did not appear before "someone" or "later", but when they appeared.
Moreover, there is nothing humiliating (and if there is, then this is already to the psychiatrist) that the Slavs encountered more developed peoples, already at a higher stage of development. It happens.
And about how they defeated less developed nations, we can only guess and have indirect evidence. They did not have writing, those who were defeated.
I never understood this whining, if the Slavs are not great berserkers, then everything is a misfortune, and those who do not share the nonsense about the Etruscans - Russians are Russophobes.
It doesn't matter who you were, it matters who you became, and who you are, but in the twentieth century - Russian civilization became number one in the world: victory over the forces of another civilization, the withdrawal of mankind into space, the development of territory unsuitable for life. Great achievements!
Although, against the background of the current degradation, it is possible to whine and dream about the Great Slavic ancient Heroes, stainless steel swords and shields from the victor, accept, but understand - it is not possible.

[Undecim]

Russian civilization has become number one in the world
Somehow this statement is discordant with the general tone of the commentary. And who was the civilizational rating?

[Edward Vashchenko]

What's wrong with the ranking?
To win the most powerful Western civilization in the Second World War, to be the first to fly into space, to be the first to master the peaceful atom - does this not put civilization in first place?

[ee2100]

And in the XXI century, what is the number 1 civilization? At least for today?

[Liam]

Even about the ancient Slavs more convincingly

[Undecim]

You are so confident in operating the ratings of civilizations, just like Samsonov. How do you combine it - a historian and a folkist in one bottle. Matter and antimatter and no annihilation. An interesting mix.
How did you decide that Germany is the most powerful Western civilization?

[Liam]

Annihilation does not happen because in the area in which he is reputed to be a "historian" he operates with exactly the same "scientific" approach and categories. Just because of the specific nature of the topic, this is not so immediately and not so clearly visible. The laws of physics are inexorable.

[Edward Vashchenko]

Аннигиляции

- who would have enlightened what it is?
Just kidding,
I like an article here on VO was about it, I should reread it)))

[pytar]

What's wrong with the ranking? To win the most powerful Western civilization in the Second World War, to be the first to fly into space, to be the first to master the peaceful atom - does this not put civilization in first place?

Dear Edward , I would not make ratings of civilizations, not so elementary, just in case! If we compare, then it is necessary not on the basis of individual successful periods, but in integrity and in the rock of the time when it existed! Thus, the early civilizations of Mesopotamia, Egypt, ancient Greek, Roman, Chinese, Indian, pre-Columbian civilizations in America, Anglo-Saxon, etc. have their successes and in many ways were advanced in their time! Civilizations are born and die in constant competition! It is a fact, history is not a limited period of time!

[Edward Vashchenko]

Dear Boyan,
so I'm not rating anything: many people have linear thinking, except for the shortest insistence between two points, they know nothing and are not able to perceive.
History is not a linear movement, although it is progressive, and not "the shortest passage between two points," but no one can compare their life with history, and perhaps this is an instructive matter.
Best regards,

[pytar]

Well said! Everything is just like that!

[pytar]

It doesn't matter who you were, it matters who you became, and who you are, but in the twentieth century - Russian civilization became number one in the world: victory over the forces of another civilization, the withdrawal of mankind into space, the development of territory unsuitable for life. Great achievements!

Yes! Indeed, Russian civilization is one of the world! The achievements are impressive!
But she was not born out of nowhere! She took a lot of things from what came before her or next to her.
I'll tell you one thought that many "patriots" in Russia take "with knives"! There are eminent scientists, for example. Acad. Likhachov, who consider the Russian civilization, a cultural-historical continuation and development of the medieval Bulgarian one. By the way, the Patriarch of All Russia, Cyril, says this in direct text! They have a common civilizational code emanating from the Byzantine. Moreover, this code was first mastered by medieval Bulgaria, where it was adapted and rewritten in accordance with the Slavic character of the so-called sk .. It was not a copy of the Byzantine, but a new development, a new branch, which turned out to be extremely resistant to changes in time. By the way, it was so easily and naturally assimilated to Russia precisely because the Bulgarian was rewritten in a language understandable to the Slavic Spirit! And when darkness fell over Bulgaria for many centuries, the flame of this civilization passed to Russia, where it flared up with new strength, already on a vast, huge, unusual!
Unfortunately, today's Russia does not have a clear civilizational model! Time is transitional, crisis! I have no doubt that this will take place in the near future, in our common Spiritual home, and the flame of knowledge and progress will flare up!

[pytar]

Do not cling to our Aryan / Slavic / Russian house.

Oooh ... here comes the Aryan! Judging by the post, ancient, at least 30 thousand years!

[Free wind]

There is no need to breed demagoguery and leave somewhere in the wild. I said clearly without inverting, our history is destroyed. Some are trying to prove that there was no Tatar-Mongol invasion either. There are Tatars and no Mongols, but just look at the map of Russia, but there is no mind about that. By the way, bersekers could not have children. And according to some versions, the Vikings cut off the genitals of the young men, and left the testicles. The young men had testosterone seething, but there was no way out, everything was hitting in the head, and it was blowing away. This period did not last long. But the consequences of such wounds, after the First World War, are also in the literature. where are the ancient Egyptians, well, where, well, how would they die, and you think where? As well as those who have lived their lives. And the shield from the victor will be very fragile.

[Engineer]

As usual, the degree of aplomb is inversely related to competence. Why with such "knowledge" to climb into the historical section?

our history has been destroyed.

Yeah, archaeologists are burying artifacts of the Slavs back. The chronicles are carefully forged. Regimes and the situation are changing, but thousands of professional historians graduating from universities are instantly involved in this criminal deception. For grants from the Vatican, the State Department, or cookies from the reptilians.

By the way, bersekers could not have children

Egil Skallagrimsson's five children not from him?
And say that to his face?

[Undecim]

And say that to his face?
This is the one who chopped the jaws of opponents with an ax at the age of seven? I'm afraid that the test would not be limited to testicles alone.

[Engineer]

I tend to agree.
Variants from "bloody eagle" to gnawing teeth like Utley from the same saga

[mihaylov]

Quote: Engineer

Yeah, archaeologists are burying artifacts of the Slavs back

Okay, the Slavs, but how hard it is to bury the skeleton of a three-meter giant back, and they are just sticking out of the ground.

[Engineer]

Presumably, archaeologists in universities have secret courses in which they teach to bury three-meter skeletons at speed.
Or they involve bulldozer and excavator operators, and then get rid of the witnesses. Surely scoundrels are being taught this too.
I must admit that counterfeiters work out their money 100%

[mihaylov]

Quote: Engineer

I must admit that counterfeiters work out their money 100%

Well, at least someone in our country works fine

[Engineer]

Well, that's a lot of money.
No matter how much an archaeologist meets, it is a must on the Cayenne and at the woman's place with silicone in all places.

[mihaylov]

Quote: Engineer

No matter how much an archaeologist meets, it is a must on the Cayenne and at the woman's place with silicone in all places.

Hmm, I wonder if my acquaintance archaeologists are a little different, we need to check: what if they have a secret life

[Free wind]

DNA was carried out?

[Engineer]

It's just that the books are not the worst I've read, which is what I wish for you

[Liam]

Books under Petrosyan's publishing house - we could safely skip it, only spoil the overall picture

[Engineer]

Arbiter elegantiae, as you say)

[Liam]

Due to the scarcity and unsteadiness of the topic, it remains only about O tempora, o mores)

[Engineer]

Someone to petrosyan, someone to bore.
suum cuique

[Liam]

Aquila non captat muscas)
This cycle and another monothematic author is a mortal boredom to be honest

[Undecim]

And who is the second monothematician?
Oh, I see, an unknown Slavophile with a spear of minuses strikes my critical comments.

[Liam]

Not Shpakovsky.
And cons, like scars, only adorn a man)

[Undecim]

I didn't even think about Shpakovsky. He is a multi-channel player.

[Liam]

Rurikovich ... that's all

[Free wind]

Do not distort, archaeologists do not bury. But there are, or there were chronicles. And five children, but at least 11 .......

[Free wind]

Yeah, and vomited in the face of his drinking companion, and bit him in the eye. Such a cool berseker.

[Edward Vashchenko]

And according to some versions, the Vikings cut off the genitals of the young men, and left the testicles.

Testerone Berserkers are the bottom.
I can be a Friday joke like this

[Engineer]

Edward, I have some kind of addition

We also have several finds of spearheads on the territory of Slavic settlements from Zimno, Bliznaki and Nikodimovo (3 points), but they are of Avar or late Hunnic origin, these finds look extremely poor against the background of the same Lombard spearheads borrowed from the Avars (Kazan M.M. .).
The discoverer and researcher of the famous archaeological early Slavic monument Zimno noticed that more weapons were found in this one settlement than in the rest of the territory inhabited by the ancient Slavs (Aulikh V.V.).

So, let's fix it. Winter, Nikodimovka, Bliznaki - Slavic settlements. Although the Nikodimovskoe settlement belongs to the Kolochin culture, and such authorities Sedov and Rusanova considered it to be Baltic. But this is not a reproach, we consider the Slavic "majority vote" at the moment.
Aulich wrote his conclusion in 1972. The main results of excavations in Nikodimov were published in the 90s.
At the moment, the finds in Nikodimov are at least comparable to the Zimninsky ones.
Here are the tips from Nikodimovo from Kazansky's article

What begs
Arms 1-3 and 16-18 are more typical of "clean" spears than javelins.
Tip 12 is an extremely long sleeve. For a javelin, not a very generous consumption of iron?
14-15 tips don't really fit your classification - small blade and relatively long sleeve
The 5th type suggests itself?

I thought to look for analogies in the armament of the Balts of the 2nd - 8th centuries from the work of Kazakeyavichus
Analogs of type 1

Analogs of tip 13 from Nikodimovo (Fig. 3 and 6)

Analogs of tips with spikes

There is also an analogue of the petiole tip.
Nikodimov arrowheads have almost complete analogs among the Balts.
The Balts, by the way, have analog tips that the Slavs do not have.
And yet, in Nikodimovo, the remains of an iron sword were found (not the one that Kartamyshevsky). Perhaps this is the oldest Slavic sword. Alas, I couldn't find images right away

[Edward Vashchenko]

Thank you very much!
Interesting thoughts, I will use, with your permission.

[Engineer]

For God's sake

[Free wind]

Dear author, let's talk about each proposal and print it. Why do we know about the gods of Egypt, the Greek gods, about the gods of Rome, about their myths. but we don't know about our, ancient, pagan gods? about the priests. In all current stories, these are bloody monsters, are they? Answer please.

[Edward Vashchenko]

Because dear Alexander,
there is such a thing as historical sources: somewhere they are better preserved, somewhere worse.
There is nothing to talk about.
Someone, I emphasize, does not tell tales about their ancestors, but has some kind of documents confirming kinship up to the 13th tribe, and someone does not, even today? And why?
Answer please.

[Operator]

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

We will never know who invented the wheel, saddled the horse, cast the copper ax

Yes, yes - I don't know about the ax, but the first horse harness in the history of mankind, the remains of chariots and children's clay toys in the form of horse-drawn carts were found on the territory of today's Bulgaria with a dating of 5 thousand years ago. The bone remains of people from the same time found there all as one belong to the carriers of R1a - the dominant haplogroup in the composition of the Aryans and their descendants of the Slavs. Naturally, the Bulgarians are not in business here - the Aryans left the Balkans for the Black Sea steppes, and the ancestors of the Bulgarians on the Slavic line, the Dnieper Antes, returned back only in the 6th century AD.

It is known exactly who first mastered horse riding - the inhabitants of Central Asia, the Scythians (indigenous northern Semites, assimilated by the Black Sea Aryans). It is also known who invented the saddle and stirrups - the Xiongnu.

Technical progress in military affairs is a terrible thing: see the distribution area of ​​the Black Sea Aryans in the 2nd millennium BC: from Egypt and Arabia to India and China.

[Polymer]

Quote: Operator

inhabitants of Central Asia Scythians (indigenous northern Semites, assimilated by the Black Sea Aryans)

And why suddenly the Semites? The Iranian-speaking people were, like ...

[Operator]

The carriers of the North Semitic haplogroup J2 are the indigenous inhabitants of the Anatolian Peninsula, the Eastern Caucasus, the Iranian Highlands, Central Asia and Afghanistan.

The native language of the Northern Semites is Nakh (it was preserved only among the Chechens and Ingush). Scythians - Northern Semites, linguistically and culturally assimilated by the Black Sea Aryans.

[Polymer]

Quote: Operator

Carriers of the North Semitic haplogroup J2

Chechens and Ingush - really J2, Semites or not - is another question. But what does the Scythians have to do with it?

According to DNA testing from Scythian burials, the Scythians were carriers of the Y-chromosomal haplogroup R1a, subclade R1a-Z2123 (both European Scythians and Siberian Scythians)

[Operator]

Scythians - 3/4 carriers of J2, 1/4 carriers of R1a of the Black Sea subclade Z93,

[Polymer]

Quote: Operator

inhabitants of Central Asia Scythians (indigenous northern Semites, assimilated by the Black Sea Aryans)

And why suddenly the Semites? The Iranian-speaking people were, like ...

[Ersh]

A typical example of "historical" research. That is bullshit.

[MAVr964]

The author is not familiar with Arkaim and his culture and heritage .... It's a pity ...
It is interesting when such people will understand that on such a huge and supposedly "empty" place some tribes with cities suddenly took over ????