Military Review

Combat ships. Cruisers. A family of perfect pirates

249

Let's agree right away: not "pocket battleships", not "nedolinkors". Heavy cruisers. Yes, in terms of weapons, they were somewhat beyond the class, but the 283 mm was by no means the caliber of a battleship at that time. 356 mm, 380 mm, 406 mm - these are the calibers for the battleship. And 283 mm is like the Soviet light cruisers of Project 26, there was a 180 mm main caliber. But this did not make Kirov and its comrades “pocket heavy cruisers”. These were ordinary light cruisers, on which more powerful guns were installed. No more.


The Deutschlands were not ordinary and normal cruisers, but the main caliber here certainly does not play the most important role. However, in fact, these were ships out of class, somewhat outside the general concept of heavy cruisers. We will take the liberty of going over them in some detail.

But let's go in order.

And the order was like that. In post-war Germany, of course, they heard about the Washington Agreements and thought what it was and how to deal with it. With the help of excellent German intelligence, all the data was soon on the table at the General Staff, and in 1924, when the really cool Admiral Zenker (the commander of Von der Tann in the Battle of Jutland) became the head of the remnants of the German Navy, the process just rushed off.

Zenker and the company, having analyzed the data on the Washington cruisers, decided that they should be opposed by a cruiser that could easily get away from the battleships of that time, that is, having a speed of more than 23 knots and having artillery between 150 mm and 380 mm.

That is, on the one hand, this cruiser had to easily cope with a light cruiser, calmly deal with a heavy one and, if necessary, simply escape from the battle cruiser at the expense of speed.

I must say, looking ahead, that the Germans implemented the idea 100%.

There was, however, a huge problem. There were no guns. Not only were there none, there was no way to make them. Weapons Krupp's factories remained in the French-occupied Ruhr zone. In connection with this fact, Krupp could guarantee the supply of ... ONE barrel with a caliber above 210 mm per year.

Nevertheless, the German command took a risk and began to design ships. And in 1925, after long backstage negotiations, France withdrew its troops from the Ruhr. And, by the way, no one raised more questions about the production by Germany of the 280-mm and 305-mm guns "prohibited" by the Versailles Treaty.

And in 1927, a competition was held in which the high command fleet, Admirals Zenker, Mommsen, Bauer and Raeder, considered the proposed options, of which there were three.

Option "A": 4 guns 380 mm, main armor belt 250 mm, speed 18 knots.

Option "B": 4 guns 305 mm, armor belt 250 mm. The speed is 19 knots or armored belt 200 mm, and the speed is 21 knots.

Option "C": 6 guns 280 mm, armor belt 100 mm, speed 27 knots.

Three of the four admirals voted for Option C. Only the future commander of large ships, Raeder, was against.

When the world learned about what the Germans would build, everyone was a little stunned. But it was too late to slow down, Germany was not invited either to Washington or London, so the Germans did what they wanted. And nobody liked what they were doing. The French in general began to urgently develop a response in the form of a battle cruiser with a 17 ton displacement, with six 000 mm guns and a 305 mm armor belt.

It turned out that the Germans did not violate the Washington and London agreements, since they did not sign them, and the Versailles ... But who in the 30s remembered this Versailles, there was no time. In general, the Versailles Agreement, which for Germany was more stringent in terms of restrictions than Washington, the Germans simply violated.


But Washington was also violated by everyone who really needed it. Therefore, no one particularly condemned Germany's going beyond the limit, because everyone had a snout not only in fluff, but in something more serious.

So the fact that Deutschland weighed 10 tons, Scheer - 600 tons, and Spee - 11, were "forgiven". It was not up to that, since it became clear that no one would disassemble the ships, which means that it was necessary to somehow answer the Germans.

In terms of the full load of the cruiser, there were also handsome men: Deutschland - 15 200 tons, Admiral Scheer - 15 900 tons, and Graf Spee - 16 200 tons.

In different sources, the total displacement figure floats great, this is due to both the lack of documents that were burned down in Hamburg from the bombings, and the mess that reigned in the world in terms of estimates between "long" British tons and conventional metric tons. Confusion took place everywhere, and everyone took advantage of it, "cutting" a little of their ships.

What were these cruisers like? It is worth considering in detail here, because all the conclusions will be after.



Power plant


Combat ships. Cruisers. A family of perfect pirates

A masterpiece, because a diesel from MAN. The risk was huge, with economical diesel engines on the same Leipzig, the Germans suffered throughout the war, and, I think, they breathed a sigh of relief when the Prince Eugen rammed the Leipzig. It was when he stood, switching the settings of the course.

You might call it a miracle, but the Mana engineers did something like that. The power plants worked perfectly, and the Deutschlands became very interesting ships in terms of energy. The Admiral Scheer covered 161 miles in its first pirate raid in 46 days without any engine trouble. Nobody dreamed of this.

All three ships had the same diesel engines: 8 main engines, M-9Zu42 / 58, 9-cylinder with a maximum power of 7100 hp each. at 450 rpm (maximum continuous power of 6655 hp) and 4 auxiliary 5-cylinder, M-5Z42 / 58 models (maximum power of 1450 hp at 425 rpm).

Weight per horsepower was 11,5 kg - a very good result for a diesel installation, traditionally considered quite heavy.

8 main motors were grouped in 4 compartments in pairs, four motors per shaft. The engines in the compartments that were closer to the bow rotated the right shaft, the stern ones - the left.

The main advantage of diesel engines was their fantastically huge cruising range. Fully refueled - 20 miles, and at a pretty decent cruising speed.


"Graf Spee" on tests showed that it can go 16 miles at an average speed of 300 knots. And at a maximum travel of 18,6 knots - 26 miles. More, by the way, than that of the main majority of battleships of that time on an economical course.

That is, the cruisers had the chances to simply escape and dissolve in the ocean from the very beginning. In addition, the diesel engine was distinguished from boiler and turbine installations by one more important quality: under them the ships picked up speed very quickly. Traditional boiler and turbine installations required a maximum steam pressure, which could be achieved in an hour or an hour and a half, depending on the mode.

And a diesel cruiser could calmly give full speed to 27 knots and either escape if it got to the wrong place, or covertly approach, taking advantage of the fact that the enemy could not quickly give full speed.

This had to be paid for with noise and vibration. What was, what was. The eerie hum of eight diesels at full speed made the crew communicate in notes. And vibration had a negative effect on communication devices and fire control.

Reservation


The reservation system is one of the most interesting distinguishing characteristics of these distinctive ships. She completely departs from the canons adopted in the German fleet during the First World War and has no analogues among foreign ships of the cruiser class. And it's not even about the bare numbers, the same Wheatley has enough of them.

It is important that in terms of booking, the three cruisers can hardly be called the same type. Booking schemes differ so that we can say that these are three variants of the same idea of ​​booking a ship.

On the Deutschland, the armor belt consisted of two layers of steel, each 80 mm thick. Towards the bow and stern, the thickness of the lower layer decreased to 18 mm. Down from the armored deck to the inner plating of the double bottom, an armored bulkhead 45 mm thick was parallel to the belt. Above the armored deck there was an upper armored bulkhead 10 mm thick, which was located strictly vertically and reached the upper deck. The deck was 45 mm thick at the thickest part, above the citadel.

It should be noted that the projectile, which should have penetrated the hull of any of the cruisers, encountered many armor barriers on its way. Mostly inclined, that is, having a great chance to deflect the projectile.

On the possible trajectories of the projectile, the following combinations were obtained (from top to bottom):
- 18mm upper deck + 10mm vertical bulkhead + 30mm deck;
- 18mm upper deck + 80mm belt + 45mm deck;
- 80mm belt + 45mm bulkhead;
- 50 mm inclined belt slab + 45 mm inclined bulkhead.

Such a reservation system in total gave from 90 to 125 mm of armor with a successful combination of slopes and verticals. None of the "Washington" cruisers in the world possessed comparable armor. Theoretically, such a protection system was supposed to withstand shells of calibers 120-152 mm at almost all combat distances, except for point-blank shooting.

The towers were also an interesting design. A complex polyhedron with many ricochet angles. The thickness of the frontal plate is 140 mm, the side plates are 80 and 75 mm in the front and rear parts, the front part of the roof is inclined downwards - 105 mm, the flat and rear inclined part of the roof is 85 mm, the side inclined fragments are from 80 to 60 mm. The maximum thickness of the rear wall was 170 mm, but it was made of ordinary steel and played the role of a balancer.

The auxiliary caliber could not be booked so luxuriously. Eight single-gun mounts were protected only by 10 mm thick tower-like shields. The shields completely covered the crew, but they were very cramped and not very comfortable.

Unlike the main caliber, the 150-mm artillery ended up in the stepdaughters. Due to the obvious impossibility of providing reasonable protection for 8 single-gun installations, the designers had to limit themselves to 10-mm tower-like shields, although completely closed, but too cramped and uncomfortable.

The main conning tower had 140-mm walls made of Krupp's cemented steel and a 50-mm roof made of nickel. The stern and artillery post had 50 mm wall armor and 20 mm roof. The rangefinder post on the formars and the anti-aircraft fire control posts had protection of 14 mm.

The protection of the next cruiser, the Admiral Scheer, differed from that of the lead ship in both location and materials. The sloped belt armor also consisted of two layers, but the 80mm plates were in the lower row, and the 50mm row was higher.

The anti-torpedo bulkhead was made thinner, 40 mm instead of 45, but was made of Wotan steel. The upper splinter-proof bulkhead also became 40 mm thick. The protection of the rudders was strengthened: the deck in the stern was now 45 mm, 45 mm had a belt in the stern and traverses closing the steering compartment. The steering compartments were protected from all sides by 45 mm armor.

The barbets "got fat". 125mm new generation armor, Wotan Harte. The main wheelhouse received another 10 mm of armor on the side walls, the artillery posts were booked with 20 mm plates.

In general, the Scheer received a more thought-out booking scheme; by and large, only the upper deck remained open.

On the third ship of the series, Admiral Graf Spee, the booking has also changed somewhat. The belt is narrower than on the Deutschland. Differences in belt height on cruisers are clearly visible in the photographs.

weaponry



The main caliber, of course, became the "trick" of these ships. Probably, having missed work, German gunsmiths designed a new weapon, although since the First World War they had a pretty decent set of developments with good ballistic data.

The 28 cm SKC / 28 gun had a true 283 mm caliber according to the German system.

The maximum rate of fire reached three rounds per minute, practical - no more than two. The projectile had a high muzzle velocity of 910 m / s, but despite this, the barrel survivability was quite: 340 rounds with a full charge, that is, about 3 full ammunition.

The ammunition consisted of three types of shells: armor-piercing and two types of high-explosive, instantaneous action of the fuse and with deceleration. Due to the correctly selected shape and weight (300 kg), the shells had the same ballistics.

The auxiliary caliber consisted of eight 150 mm SKC / 28 guns, which were also developed specifically for cruisers.


The gun fired 45,3 kg shells with a bottom or head fuse at an initial speed of 875 m / s. The maximum rate of fire reached 10 rounds per minute, in practice it did not exceed 5-7 volleys per minute. Barrel survivability - over 1000 full charges.

150-mm guns had large sectors of fire along the horizon. The ammunition capacity was 150 rounds per gun. In general, 8 x 150 mm is the armament of another light cruiser. But on the Deutschlands, these guns played the role of raider weapons. Well, really, do not shoot at transports from the main battery?

But it cannot be said that the auxiliary caliber was effective. Yes, it was quite possible to sink a dry cargo ship, but it was necessary to make a fire control post or something ... Many experts pointed out that 150-mm guns were a weak link in the cruiser's armament, since they were both defended and controlled according to the residual principle. And in general, it would be possible to do without them by stabbing anti-aircraft guns wherever possible.

However, if you remember that this is primarily a raider, then everything will become normal. Control posts are not needed to shoot a civilian steamer. And ships such as a destroyer or light cruiser can easily drive away the main battery. But this opinion is not an axiom.

Flak



Anti-aircraft artillery is an evolution. When the Deutschland entered service, the threat from the sky was opposed by as many as THREE anti-aircraft guns of 88 mm caliber with separate loading of the 1914 model. It is clear that as soon as it became possible, the guns were sent to museums, and in their place were installed paired installations of the same caliber, but of the 1931 model. With an electric drive, stabilized in three planes ... Unitary cartridges of 15 kg weighing a projectile weighing 9 kg at a distance of up to 10 m with an initial speed of 000 m / s.

They were very good weapons. Deutschland and Scheer were equipped with them. On the Spee, engineers went even further, installing barrels in successful installations. And instead of 88 mm they put 105 mm. The projectile weighing 15 kg flew about the same distance, but a little slower - 900 m / s.

In addition to these guns, each cruiser was to receive eight 37-mm SKS / 30 assault rifles in twin L / 30 mounts. These machines were also stabilized, but in two planes.



Torpedo armament



Two four-pipe 533-mm torpedo tubes were placed in the aft of the ship. There they, in which case, could not do much harm in the event of an emergency situation in battle. The apparatus was covered with light (5-mm) shields, protecting not so much from shrapnel as from the powder gases of the rear tower.

Aircraft Armament



The standard for cruisers of that time: two seaplanes (first "Heinkel" He.60, then "Arado" Ar.196) and one catapult. But in fact there was always only one plane on board, which is why at one time they gnawed their elbows on the Scheer, having failed in Wonderland.

Control systems



Everything was luxurious with control systems. For just two towers. I would say that it is even unnecessary. But if we again remember that we are not facing a combat cruiser, but a lone raider, everything again falls into place.

Three rangefinder posts (two with 10-meter rangefinders, one with 6-meter). Target designation could be conducted from FIVE equivalent sighting posts! Two in turrets at the conning tower, two on fore-mars at the 10-meter rangefinder, one at the stern, also next to the backup rangefinder.

All posts were covered with 50 mm armor. The observation was carried out exclusively with the help of periscopes, no hatches and cracks. The data from the posts went to two processing centers located under the bow and stern wheelhouses deep under the armored deck and equipped with analog computers. It was unique and unmatched at that time.

In fact, the auxiliary caliber could also be controlled by means of so many posts, especially since the 150-mm guns had their own data processing post in the hold. But this post was "for two", that is, anti-aircraft gunners also used it. And since the threat from the air was present almost constantly, it is clear that the computer center was occupied by anti-aircraft gunners.

For the normal operation of air defense systems on the "Deutschlands" in 1943, a new anti-aircraft KDP SL2 appeared, stabilized in three planes and made it possible to transmit the correct data with a roll up to 12 °. Two such posts were installed on each cruiser. The posts also had their own 4-meter rangefinders.

With anti-aircraft guns, everything was not so rosy. More precisely, nothing at all. Until the very end of the service, the Sheera and Lyuttsov assault rifles fired under local control, using portable meter rangefinders.

And that's not all, no! For operations at night, command of the ship was envisaged from a special bridge located above the commander's. There were special enlightened naval binoculars and periscopes, and since the speed of reaction was the main factor during night shooting, there were two additional fire control posts that had simplified equipment, but allowed remote firing with the main caliber.

In addition, on the night bridge there was a sighting post for controlling searchlights and two target designators for firing illuminating shells.

Radar equipment



Here, the Deutschlands were also ahead of the entire Kriegsmarine. Already in 1937, a FuMG-39 radar was installed on the Deutschland. Experiments have shown the success of the radar, and in 1939 all three ships were equipped with the more advanced FuMO-22 system with a huge 2 x 6 m antenna. Scheer and Spee also received FuMO-27.

It is clear that in those years it was impossible to demand something fantastic from the locators, but they detected enemy ships quite confidently at 8-10 miles. But to fire using only radar data until the end of the war, the Germans did not risk it. There were mentions of "blind" shooting at targets on the shore, but no data on effectiveness.

Upgrades



In the first ocean voyages it turned out that the seaworthiness of the ships leaves much to be desired. The cruisers dug into the waves at high speed and constantly heated the stern compartments. Experts came to the conclusion that it is necessary to replace the stem with an "Atlantic", higher one.


Then they thought about the unification of weapons. There was a project to replace the 150-mm and 105-mm guns with the universal 127-mm. This replacement made it possible to significantly lighten the ship, strengthen the air defense (8 barrels per side), free up almost 100 crew. But the admirals did not like the idea, and they abandoned it.

In 1939, the Deutschland received four 20-mm assault rifles, in 1940 the 88-mm anti-aircraft guns were replaced with 105-mm, at the same time the cruiser received an "Atlantic" nose. In 1942, two 20-mm quadruple "firlings" and one 20-mm machine gun were installed instead of a searchlight. At the end of 1944, by that time already "Luttsov" had six 40-mm "bofors", four 37-mm and twenty-six 20-mm machine guns. Three "firling" naval modifications, with stabilization in three planes.

Sheer, like the later one, changed less. In 1936, two special "night" range finders for firing torpedoes in the dark and two 20-mm machine guns were installed.

In 1940, instead of a tower-like superstructure, a tubular mast of the Deutschland type was installed, but with a completely different arrangement of bridges and platforms. At the same time, the cruiser received an "Atlantic" stem, demagnetization device and an inclined visor on the pipe. The anti-rolls were removed. 88-mm anti-aircraft guns were replaced with 105-mm, and instead of two 20-mm machine guns installed two ground "firling" without stabilization.

In 1942, one of the searchlights was removed and two 20 mm machine guns were installed instead. The FuMO-22 radar was replaced by the FuMO-26, and the masts were equipped with means of passive detection of radiation from enemy radars "Java" and "Timor".

As it gets stronger aviation opposition also began. By the summer of 1944, in addition to the original 8 automatic 37-mm cannons, the Scheer had 4 firlings and 9 single 20-mm machine guns. Then part of the 37-mm twin-barrels began to be replaced with single-barreled 40-mm bofors.

According to the plan of rearmament in 1945, "Scheer" was supposed to have four 40-mm machine guns, four 37-mm machine guns and forty-two 20-mm barrels. The entire scope of modernization was not carried out and "Scheer" ended its war with four 40-mm barrels, eight 37-mm barrels and thirty-three 20-mm barrels.

"Spee" simply did not have time to modernize. The only modernization was the replacement of 88-mm anti-aircraft guns with 105-mm and the installation of a radar.

Combat application


"Admiral Graf Spee"


My career was not working out, let's face it. Indeed, "what do you call a yacht ..." Vice-Admiral Count Maximilian von Spee, who defeated the British in the battle at Coronel and died on December 8, 1914 on board the armored cruiser Scharnhorst in the battle of the Falkland Islands, also had a short career. Moreover, both carriers of the name von Spee died in approximately the same area.

On May 29, 1936, the cruiser became the flagship of the Kriegsmarine, and the first combat mission for the ship was the operation to remove German citizens from blazing Spain. Then there was a patrolling of the Atlantic sector assigned to Germany, adjacent to Spanish waters.

On August 5, 1939, the supply vessel Altmark, designed to work in tandem with the Spee, sailed for the United States. There, the tanker had to take a load of diesel fuel and dissolve into the ocean expanses until the moment the fuel is needed by the raider. On August 21, the Spee went to sea.

The ships got the southern sector of the Atlantic. There the cruiser and tanker met the beginning of the war.

On September 30, the battle score was opened by the sinking of the British steamer "Clement" (5 brt). In general, the commander of the "Graf von Spee" Langsdorff committed a lot of stupid things during his short command, but declassifying his position by radio messages was too much. Gentleness is a good thing, but not in such volumes, and even less so in a war.

Naturally, the news that two raiders were pirating in the Atlantic cheered up the British and French. For capture and rest, as many as 8 tactical groups were created and sent to the Atlantic, which included 3 aircraft carriers, 2 battleships, 3 battle cruisers, 9 heavy, 5 light cruisers and a couple of dozen destroyers.

For two heavy cruisers - more than an honor.

Much has been written about the famous battle at La Plata, it is not worth repeating the story of the battle. I can only say that Spee had a chance to butcher the British into a nut and leave. But apparently, the concussion of Langsdorf played its evil role, simply ditching a good ship, succumbing to the provocation of the insidious Britons.

From a purely technical point of view, the battle at La Plata can be considered a victory for the German cruiser. Two 203-mm and eighteen 152-mm shells that hit him did not cause him fatal damage. The main artillery of the Spee remained fully operational, only one of the eight 150-mm guns failed, and the two 105-mm mounts, which disabled the British shells, did not play a big role initially.

The Spee had neither roll nor trim, the vehicles were in perfect order. The loss of a crew of 1 people was 200 officer and 1 sailors killed and 35 wounded. But you can't say that about the British unit. The Germans pounded the Exeter so that the cruiser was not capable of combat. By the end of the battle, the artillery power of Harewood's detachment had more than halved, besides, only 58 shells remained on the most efficient Achilles. So a continuation could well have taken place.

The main loss can be considered the head of the commander Langsdorf, who actually capitulated to the circumstances. Like the commander of the "Bismarck" Lutyens in his time.

In general, Langsdorf cowardly blew up the ship and no less cowardly shot himself. That ended the career of the heavy cruiser Admiral Graf Spee.


Deutschland - Lutzow



Let's just say: "Deutschland" was not the luckiest ship. Combat service began with Spanish operations, and each cruiser received some damage.

On May 29, 1937, the Deutschland was on the roadstead of the island of Ibiza, when at about 18.45 2 SBs from the "Group 12" - a small (10 aircraft) detachment of Soviet volunteer pilots appeared from the land side.

Our pilots confused the Deutschland with the Canarias and dropped bombs on it. Only two 50-kg bombs hit the ship, but they did something ... One bomb caused a fire and detonation of the ammunition of 150-mm gun No. 3. The plane burned down, the boat burned down. The second bomb also caused a fire, which detonated the shells of the 150-mm guns on the left side in the fenders.

Unexpectedly, as a result of being hit by two 50-kg bombs, 31 people died and 110 were injured, of which 71 were seriously. The cruiser went to Germany for repairs.

In 1939 "Deutschland" simultaneously with "Spee" went to the Atlantic for raiding. The cruiser got the northern part of the Atlantic, in which the ship had been waiting for an order to start operations for a month.


On October 4, 1939, the Deutschland opened an account by sinking the British steamer Stonegate. But the raiding was more than indistinct: two and a half months at sea resulted in less than 7000 tons of destroyed tonnage and one captured neutral transport that did not reach Germany.

The unsuccessful raid played a role in the renaming of the ship. In general, "Germany" could not screw up like that, could not be sunk. Therefore, since the heavy cruiser "Luttsov" was sold to the Soviet Union, the name seemed to be vacated. Not quite successful "Deutschland" was named "glorious", but very unsuccessful battle cruiser. The only one in its class who did not return from the Battle of Jutland.

The cruiser took part in the occupation of Norway, in one unit with the Blucher, which the intractable Norwegians had sunk. "Luttsov" got off with a slight fright, or rather, on the way back received a torpedo in the stern from a British submarine.

On June 12, 1941, having been assigned to work in the Atlantic, "Luttsov" and 5 destroyers went to sea. They were intercepted by British torpedo bombers and the cruiser received a torpedo in the side. The operation was canceled.

On November 12, 1943, having completed the repairs, he moved to Norway, replacing the Scheer. He took part in the infamous attack on convoy JW-51B on December 31. In fact, "Luttsov" passively did not take part in the battle, along with the destroyers, but only "Hipper" fought.

The contribution of "Lyuttsov" - 86 shells of the main caliber and 76 auxiliary ones fired towards the enemy.

In March 1944, she received the status of a training ship from the new commander of the Navy, Doenitz. The cruiser was transferred to the Baltic, where he supported the retreating German troops with his guns.

On April 16, 1945, while in Swinemünde, he came under attack from the British Air Force and was seriously injured. The ship landed on the ground, but continued to fire with its main caliber. As the Soviet troops approached, on May 4, 1945, it was blown up by the crew.


Admiral Scheer



He received his baptism of fire in May 1937. In general, Sheer got the unsightly role of a sea terrorist. After the Deutschland air attack on May 29, Scheer, in accordance with the order of the command, fired 91 main-caliber rounds, 100 "intermediate" 150-mm and 48 anti-aircraft 88-mm rounds at the city of Almeria.

On November 5, 1940, he opened a battle score by sinking the British steamship Mopan. Then the raider found the convoy NH-84. Thanks to the heroism of the auxiliary cruiser Jervis Bay, which covered the convoy, the ships dispersed and Sheer was able to sink only 5 ships out of 37. Later, the raider sank two more ships.

The cruiser took part in an unsuccessful attack on the PQ-17 convoy. Then there was the inglorious operation "Wonderland" in the northern waters of the USSR. The operation ended with the sinking of the Soviet steamer "Alexander Sibiryakov".

At the beginning of 1945, the cruiser operated in the Baltic Sea, firing at the advancing Soviet troops. Having completely shot the barrels, he left for a replacement in Germany, where he was sunk by allied aviation in April.



Results



Really worth congratulating the Germans. In the 30s of the last century, they created really outstanding warships. The successful combination of very powerful artillery with enormous autonomy for those times and the strongest artillery in the class made the Deutschlands very difficult opponents for any cruiser.

An ideal raider - that is how these ships could be called. There were drawbacks, but there were also huge advantages. The whole question was just how to use these highly controversial cruisers.

Sources:
Vladimir Kofman. Pocket battleships of the Fuhrer.
Vladimir Kofman. Corsairs of the Third Reich.
Author:
249 comments
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  1. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 3 September 2020 18: 12 New
    11
    I did not wait for the analysis of problems with diesel engines and ways to eliminate them

    I dare not stutter about the features of loading the main battery towers

    by the way, the cost of the ship and its maintenance is also absolutely necessary information,
    ah, yes, Kofman does not have this, but at least Jaynes was not in the list of references

    and here is a thick hint that the exact weight distribution of the Germans was well known at the time of their construction,
    but she was "forgiven" needs a convincing proof
    1. alpamys
      alpamys 3 September 2020 18: 47 New
      +5
      I did not wait for the analysis of problems with diesel engines and ways to eliminate them

      yes there were no problems, MAN drives.
      1. Andrey Shmelev
        Andrey Shmelev 3 September 2020 18: 50 New
        +1
        You should at least read Kofman
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 3 September 2020 19: 15 New
          +5
          Quote: Andrei Shmelev
          You should at least read Kofman

          As it seems to me, there was a poorly hidden sarcasm in the post above ... :)
          1. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 3 September 2020 19: 17 New
            0
            and I, without sarcasm, a few years ago poked around in German-language sites and did not understand anything, whether they were brought to mind on the "Spee" with "Scheer" or not (on "Luttsov", it seems, they did not finish at all)
            1. Macsen_wledig
              Macsen_wledig 3 September 2020 19: 25 New
              +6
              Quote: Andrei Shmelev
              brought them to mind on the "Spee" with "Scheer" or not (on the "Luttsov", it seems, they did not finish at all)

              They brought it as far as they could ...
              I had to corny to strengthen the structure.
              Engines on "Deutschland" weighed 900 tons, on "Scheer" - 982, on "Spee" - 1013.
              Well, we went through other articles ...
      2. NF68
        NF68 4 September 2020 16: 20 New
        +1
        Quote: alpamys
        I did not wait for the analysis of problems with diesel engines and ways to eliminate them

        yes there were no problems, MAN drives.


        The vibration of the entire ship at maximum speed was too strong. Later, the Germans planned to eliminate this shortcoming by developing more advanced new diesel engines.
        1. alpamys
          alpamys 4 September 2020 21: 28 New
          +1
          Quote: NF68


          The vibration of the entire ship at maximum speed was too strong. Later, the Germans planned to eliminate this shortcoming by developing more advanced new diesel engines.

          vibration of the engine to shake a ship of such a mass is unrealistic, but vibration is possible from an incorrect orientation of the engine to the transmission or to the propeller shafts ... this was on the yacht of Abramovich, later the defect was eliminated.
          1. NF68
            NF68 5 September 2020 16: 18 New
            0
            Quote: alpamys
            Quote: NF68


            The vibration of the entire ship at maximum speed was too strong. Later, the Germans planned to eliminate this shortcoming by developing more advanced new diesel engines.

            vibration of the engine to shake a ship of such a mass is unrealistic, but vibration is possible from an incorrect orientation of the engine to the transmission or to the propeller shafts ... this was on the yacht of Abramovich, later the defect was eliminated.


            And yet the vibration was very strong. as well as noise. As far as I know, the reason for the vibration was the design flaws of the diesels themselves. In the future, they planned to modify the engines themselves and the engine mounts to the body.
            1. alpamys
              alpamys 5 September 2020 20: 12 New
              +1
              Quote: NF68
              Quote: alpamys
              Quote: NF68


              The vibration of the entire ship at maximum speed was too strong. Later, the Germans planned to eliminate this shortcoming by developing more advanced new diesel engines.

              vibration of the engine to shake a ship of such a mass is unrealistic, but vibration is possible from an incorrect orientation of the engine to the transmission or to the propeller shafts ... this was on the yacht of Abramovich, later the defect was eliminated.


              And yet the vibration was very strong. as well as noise. As far as I know, the reason for the vibration was the design flaws of the diesels themselves. In the future, they planned to modify the engines themselves and the engine mounts to the body.

              I work at this plant and it is on balancing
              1. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 13: 21 New
                0
                I work at this plant and it is on balancing


                on German-speaking forums a few years ago I found the following opinion (I don't remember which document, but there were definitely proofs there): the body did not provide sufficient rigidity and this was the cause of problems (such as usually the body can bend by about 1/500 of its length, but for pickpockets it was too much)

                about the vibration from the engine there is a personal experience of the car owner: if the balancer shafts of the internal combustion engine give a wedge, then it is quite possible to drive quietly, but the sensations are not joyful

                Without pretending to be a clever comment now, I will naively ask a specialist: what do you think about what I have said here?
              2. NF68
                NF68 6 September 2020 16: 39 New
                0
                Then you did not work and the opportunities then were not what they are now.
          2. unknown
            unknown 6 September 2020 07: 20 New
            +2
            The Germans used two-stroke diesels.
            Perhaps four-strokes would have come out more cumbersome and heavy.
            But, they also have advantages.
          3. Dmitry V.
            Dmitry V. 7 September 2020 15: 37 New
            0
            Quote: alpamys
            but vibration is possible from incorrect orientation of the engine to the transmission or propeller shafts ..


            For the operation of a diesel engine, vibration is generally characteristic, and taking into account the scale of a ship's diesel engine, the amplitude of vibrations increases, which are transmitted to the hull due to the rigid attachment of the propulsion system in the power set of the ship.
            The vibration was caused by the detonation of the fuel in the cylinders - given the cylinder diameter and the number of power plants, there is a very strong vibration.
            1. Eskobar
              Eskobar 8 September 2020 19: 29 New
              0
              But I wonder how far away did the submarine hydrophones hear them from the sound of engine vibrations? If they rumbled across the ocean, sooner or later submariners would come out on them.
  2. withoutreverse
    withoutreverse 3 September 2020 18: 20 New
    22
    "In general, Langsdorf cowardly blew up the ship and no less cowardly shot himself. That ended the career of the heavy cruiser Admiral Graf Spee."

    I don’t think you’re right .. somehow it’s not even masculine to write about a military officer, even if it’s an enemy. and you are also biased about a cruiser career ..
    -Before its death in the harbor of Montevideo, the "pocket battleship" caused serious damage to the British, having managed to sink eleven merchant ships.
    1. withoutreverse
      withoutreverse 3 September 2020 18: 25 New
      11
      Langsdorf sent a request to Berlin, from where an almost personal order from the Fuehrer was received: not to take the battle, to destroy the ship. On December 17, 1939, Langsdorf ordered the sinking of the ship. The team went ashore and were interned in neutral Argentina. The commander shot himself on 20 December in Buenos Aires.
    2. Andrey Shmelev
      Andrey Shmelev 3 September 2020 18: 57 New
      -1
      having managed to sink eleven merchant ships.


      and they all together, including the cargo, were worth 100 million Reichsmarks or not?

      and you are biased about a cruiser career too ..


      Why would Lyad Langsdorf even flop to seek adventure?
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 3 September 2020 19: 31 New
        11
        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
        Why would Lyad Langsdorf even flop to seek adventure?

        It was not he who was looking for adventure, but they were his. smile
        He was still very lucky to run into the weakest of the KPUG - Harwood with his under-CRT and a couple of under-COPD. Because there were 5 groups in total in the South Atlantic:
        Force G is actually Harwood with his Exeter SRT and Ajax and Achilles KRLs.
        Force H - Sussex and Shropshire MCTs.
        Force I - AV Eagle, KRT Cornwall, KRL Gloucester.
        Force K - AB "Ark Royal" and LKR "Rinaun".
        Force X - AV Hermes, KRT Duple and Foch, KRL Neptune.
        1. Andrey Shmelev
          Andrey Shmelev 3 September 2020 19: 39 New
          0
          well, in fact, without aerial reconnaissance, he was on the rampage, as he lost the opportunity to compete in speed over long distances
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 4 September 2020 00: 15 New
            +2
            Quote: Andrei Shmelev
            as I lost the opportunity to compete in speed over long distances

            He had no one to compete in speed. He gave in to everyone. No chance to escape .. Whoever finds him will kill him.
            1. Andrey Shmelev
              Andrey Shmelev 4 September 2020 08: 00 New
              +1
              No chance to escape ..


              why? if there is a handicap due to early detection from the seaplane? he had to hold out until nightfall, and the effectiveness of the British search radar was not at all guaranteed

              at long distances


              the chase is in full swing, and it has a tangible advantage in full speed range
              1. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 4 September 2020 09: 56 New
                +4
                Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                why? if there is a handicap due to early detection from the seaplane? he had to hold out until nightfall, and the effectiveness of the British search radar was not at all guaranteed

                Given the unique silhouette of the Panzershiff and the composition of Force I, Force K and Force X, it won't be possible to hide.
                These auxiliary cruisers could count on the fact that they were indistinguishable from the air from a regular tramp. And "Spee" is very difficult to confuse with someone else.
                1. Andrey Shmelev
                  Andrey Shmelev 4 September 2020 17: 20 New
                  0
                  and the composition of Force I, Force K and Force X - you can't hide.


                  sorry, it seems we are talking about a few different things

                  I meant: NORMALLY a panzerschiff should count on this chance from its aerial reconnaissance and act accordingly EVERY time

                  the fact that THIS particular time there were no options, it can be considered, is another question
              2. Macsen_wledig
                Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 18: 25 New
                0
                Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                he had to hold out until nightfall, and the effectiveness of the British search radar was not at all guaranteed

                Harwood's cruisers did not have radars in December 39 ...

                Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                and in full speed range it has a tangible advantage

                Only the Spee had fuel only in the supply tanks.
                1. Andrey Shmelev
                  Andrey Shmelev 4 September 2020 20: 03 New
                  0
                  I'm talking about Thomas, and you tell me ... :)

                  I am writing about the general case (about the optimal behavior of a pickpocket "in a spherical vacuum"), and you are about the particular case (about what happened in this particular situation),
                  of course, "Spee" in this particular situation should have been reeling fishing rods on 11.12.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX, and not be impudent for new prey
                  this is evident from general considerations of pickpocket tactics regarding the optimal pickpocket behavior "in a spherical vacuum"

                  Accordingly, my position proceeds from the fact that in 1939 the pickpocket commander does not know if the enemy has radars, but must expect that there are, but bad ones, + the pickpocket should always have enough fuel + there is no air reconnaissance for the pickpocket - it's time to go home
                  1. Macsen_wledig
                    Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 20: 50 New
                    0
                    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                    I'm talking about Thomas, and you tell me ... :)

                    Reasoning around a spherical horse in a vacuum is always a thankless task ...
                    1. Andrey Shmelev
                      Andrey Shmelev 4 September 2020 21: 29 New
                      0
                      ungrateful, but just such reasoning is the basis for "guidance to action ..."
                      well, if they are based on a correct understanding of the materiel and a logical synthesis of basic probabilities
                2. Saxahorse
                  Saxahorse 4 September 2020 21: 42 New
                  0
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  Harwood's cruisers did not have radars in December 39 ...

                  But there were seaplanes in stock. And on the street, it's midsummer in the southern hemisphere, I don't know how at the latitude of La Plata, but at the latitude of St. Petersburg at this time, white nights are not uncommon.
                  1. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 4 September 2020 22: 10 New
                    +1
                    And it's high summer outside in the southern hemisphere


                    in the north the weather is more important - to return, after all
                    on the other hand you won't win much at night

                    But there were seaplanes in stock


                    and this was a big problem for any raider
                    1. Saxahorse
                      Saxahorse 4 September 2020 22: 16 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                      on the other hand you won't win much at night

                      For this particular fight at La Plata, the excellent weather and the very short night played a huge role. If the darkness is only an hour and a half, you cannot leave the search zone anywhere.
                      1. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 5 September 2020 04: 53 New
                        0
                        very short night




                        they say the weather is like this:

                        In this summer month, the average ambient temperature is 27.5 during the day and about 17.6 at night. It sometimes rains, about 7 days per month, with 43.9 mm of precipitation. Sunny weather for almost the entire month for at least 25 days.
                      2. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 5 September 2020 18: 54 New
                        +1
                        Curious. But in the description of the battle they indicate that it was finally dark after 12 when Spee had already entered the harbor of Montevideo
                      3. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 5 September 2020 19: 55 New
                        +1
                        I looked at the calendar and will add it. The picture is slightly different:

                        The graph shows that the night of December 13. in Montevideo it starts at 21:40, the length of twilight is 1.5 hours in total, i.e. it really got dark just after 12 o'clock. This means the length of the night minus twilight at this latitude is about 3 hours. It is approximately 97 km at 18 knots.

                        For comparison, from an altitude of 1500 meters, the visibility of the horizon is 150 km. In perfect weather, of course. laughing
                      4. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 5 September 2020 20: 24 New
                        +1
                        night of 13 Dec. in Montevideo it starts at 21:40, the length of the twilight is 1.5 hours


                        and the twilight begins at 19:54
                        and the night starts at 21:40


                        For practical purposes, the following 3 periods are accepted.
                        Civil S., during which the sun's immersion under the horizon does not exceed 7 ° (this boundary is often taken equal to 6 °); In this lightest part of C., natural light is so intense that any work, including reading and writing, can be performed outdoors without artificial lighting. Navigational S., corresponding to the sun's immersion to 12 °; the visibility conditions of the terrain are greatly worsened due to insufficient illumination, but when the ship is sailing near the coast, the navigator can still navigate by coastal objects.
                        Astronomical S. is determined by the sun's immersion to 18 °; near the earth's surface it is already completely dark, but a barely noticeable dawn is still preserved in the sky, which, however, prevents astronomical observations of faint luminaries.


                        good photos like twilight here:
                        http://avrora-y.ru/blog/kakie-byvayut-sumerki

                        in the nautical twilight a ship can be clearly seen from another ship against the background of sunset, but not from an airplane against the background of the sea
                      5. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 6 September 2020 17: 53 New
                        0
                        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                        and the twilight begins at 19:54
                        and the night starts at 21:40

                        The beginning of the night is the moment when the sun drops below the horizon. From this moment, twilight must be counted.
                      6. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 19: 56 New
                        0
                        The beginning of the night is the moment when the sun drops below the horizon. From this moment, twilight must be counted.


                        Yes sir!

                        Most sources give the following division according to the type of twilight:

                        Twilight Angle of the Sun under the horizon
                        civil from 0 ° 50 ′ to 6 °
                        navigational from 6 ° to 12 °
                        astronomical from 12 ° to 18 °
                      7. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 6 September 2020 20: 01 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                        Yes sir!

                        So I write that at 21:40 the sun sank below the horizon and began to darken. After 1.5 hours, at 12 hours when Spee dropped anchor, it was completely dark. Langsdof was very glad that he had time to enter before dark.
                      8. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 20: 03 New
                        0
                        no, it started to get dark at 19:54

                      9. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 6 September 2020 20: 07 New
                        +1
                        those. twilight must be counted the other way?
                      10. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 20: 15 New
                        +1
                        exactly as it should be considered in your drawing
                        (ok, the other way)

                        a couple of years ago I walked along the seashore and assessed the visibility as best I could: I thought of a lot of interesting things about many fights, for example, about Coronel

                        with an assessment of visibility to the coast, I think this way: for navigation near a densely populated coast, the night is shorter than three hours
                        with an assessment of the visibility from above to the sea, I think this way: with the beginning of the nautical twilight from top to bottom, the sea is not visible, but the ship against the background of sunset from another ship is perfectly visible to their end, but the ship against the background of the coast may be poorly visible already at the end civil
                      11. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 6 September 2020 20: 21 New
                        0
                        This somewhat contradicts our everyday, everyday experience. We all remember that June 22 is a very short night. You can try to write off the latitude of the place. Montevideo is much closer to the equator than Russia. And the time indicated by Langsdorf (12h) is not local, most likely ship.
                      12. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 20: 25 New
                        +1
                        June 22 night is very short


                      13. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 8 September 2020 00: 19 New
                        +1
                        Yes, I also immediately looked at this schedule for Moscow. The difference with the tropics is striking, and you won't think that we live on the same planet :)

                        On the other hand, I was most surprised by the view range of the aerial reconnaissance. I knew that it was considered effective, but I did not think that it was so effective.

                        In general, an interesting discussion turned out, useful. good
            2. Andrey Shmelev
              Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 20: 05 New
              0
              Langsdof was very glad that he had time to enter before dark.


              in illuminated places (near a large city, for example) the night really comes an hour and a half later (for example, Peter)
  • unknown
    unknown 6 September 2020 07: 36 New
    0
    How easily you sentenced Exeter-class cruisers and two generations of light cruisers.
    Exeter, of course, was less in displacement than its predecessors, carried less armament in terms of the number of barrels, but had a full belt. Keningham, I would not agree with you in assessing the need for this type of heavy cruisers.
    "Cumberland", if he was instead of "Exeter", would have received the same damage.
    The Zara-class cruiser, the representative of the most booked type of heavy cruisers, would not have resisted against 300 kg of shells.
    As for light cruisers, only Great Britain and the USA built twelve-gun cruisers. Among them, only the Town-class ships were successful. The rest suffered from insufficient stability, which put an end to their serious modernization, or forced to remove some of the weapons. For example, all series of cruisers in the development of the Colony type were nine-gun.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 11: 43 New
      +1
      Quote: ignoto
      For example, all series of cruisers in the development of the Colony type were nine-gun.

      Here the question is in the need to cram additional air defense into the displacement limit.
    2. Andrey Shmelev
      Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 13: 32 New
      +1
      to call the "Clevelands" unsuccessful, in my opinion, is not at all true
      1.do fika station wagons
      2.Excellent search and fire control systems
      3.Everything is good with MZA
      of course, they suck against the background of the Baltimors, but against the background of other light cruisers in terms of overall potential usefulness they are quite good
      with the fact that they were a mistake, I admit that the Americans had to make only 3 types of ships "Iowa", "Baltimore", "Fletcher"
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 23: 04 New
        +1
        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
        with the fact that they were a mistake, I admit that the Americans had to make only 3 types of ships "Iowa", "Baltimore", "Fletcher"

        And what for "Baltimore": "Clevelands" headlong for the tasks to be solved, especially in the "Fargo" version.
        1. Andrey Shmelev
          Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 23: 06 New
          0
          "Baltimore" is bigger, but more balanced :)
        2. Andrey Shmelev
          Andrey Shmelev 7 September 2020 06: 44 New
          0
          I completely forgot, I'm sorry:
          Cleveland - 40
          Baltimore - 41
          Fargo - 43 years old
          Oregon - 44
          De Maine - 45 years old
          so Fargo cannot be an alternative to Baltimore at all
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 7 September 2020 18: 38 New
            0
            Quote: Andrei Shmelev
            so Fargo cannot be an alternative to Baltimore at all

            And no one talks about the construction of Fargo right away - how smooth development of the Clevelands is ...
            1. Andrey Shmelev
              Andrey Shmelev 7 September 2020 18: 46 New
              0
              and isn't it easier to line up Baltimore - Oregon - De Main and not split between two closely related types?
              into light aircraft carriers, too, by the way, if it is pinned, then it is much better to remake them, IMHO
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 7 September 2020 15: 40 New
    +1
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Force G is actually Harwood with his Exeter SRT and Ajax and Achilles KRLs.
    Force H - Sussex and Shropshire MCTs.
    Force I - AV Eagle, KRT Cornwall, KRL Gloucester.
    Force K - AB "Ark Royal" and LKR "Rinaun".
    Force X - AV Hermes, KRT Duple and Foch, KRL Neptune.


    A perfect example of how one heavy cruiser diverted an unprecedentedly larger force.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 3 September 2020 18: 21 New
    +7
    In addition to these guns, each cruiser was to receive eight 37-mm automata SKS / 30 in twin units L / 30. These automatons were also stabilized, but in two planes.


    Where are the 3.7 cm / 83 SK C / 30 machines in? At Kofman's? So he himself admitted that he was wrong.
    1. Andrey Shmelev
      Andrey Shmelev 3 September 2020 18: 26 New
      +9
      Roman once admitted that, on principle, he does not read comments on his posts, well, this is how I understood him, that's why there will be the same "automatic machines"
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 3 September 2020 19: 07 New
        17
        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
        Roman once admitted that, on principle, he does not read comments on his posts, well, this is how I understood him, that's why there will be the same "automatic machines"

        Believe me, it reads ...
        But, unlike other authors, he probably considers it beneath his dignity to respond to critics. :)
  • Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 3 September 2020 18: 25 New
    0
    But it cannot be said that the auxiliary caliber was effective. Yes, it was quite possible to sink the dry cargo ship, but it was necessary to make a fire control post or something ...


    compare with this:


    With control systems, everything was luxurious ... Data from the posts went to two processing centers located under the bow and aft wheelhouses deep under the armored deck and equipped with analog computers. It was unique and unmatched at that time. In fact, the auxiliary caliber could also be controlled by means of so many posts, especially since the 150-mm guns had their own data processing post in the hold.


    something I'm confused
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 4 September 2020 00: 20 New
      +3
      Quote: Andrei Shmelev
      something I'm confused

      The Germans got it so wrong. SUAO was good, but it served only main guns and anti-aircraft guns. For the medium caliber, neither the directors nor the calculator were allocated, only the rangefinder and paper plates were used in the old fashioned way. This greatly backfired on the Spee in the Atlantic when the British were predictably divided, and they had to shoot only one enemy out of three.
      1. Andrey Shmelev
        Andrey Shmelev 4 September 2020 08: 01 New
        0
        the 150 mm guns had their own data processing post in the hold.


        writes Roman;)
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 4 September 2020 21: 47 New
          +1
          Roman did not guess. :) There was a post, and in theory it could serve a medium caliber instead of antiaircraft guns. But not at the same time. And since that computer was purely mechanical, there was no program change at sea.
  • RUnnm
    RUnnm 3 September 2020 18: 26 New
    0
    The evening promises to be languid ... I already look forward to the analysis from the Engineer, Vladimirovich, Maksen and his comrades ...)))
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 3 September 2020 19: 12 New
      +9
      Quote: RUnnm
      The evening promises to be languid ... I already look forward to the analysis from the Engineer, Vladimirovich, Maksen and his comrades ...)))

      And there is nothing to disassemble ...
      Before us is the "digest" of the 5th issue of MorCola for the 97th year, over these 20 plus years, more than once sorted out on most "near-sea" resources, and with the participation of the author (I mean V.K.) ...
      1. RUnnm
        RUnnm 3 September 2020 19: 30 New
        0
        Then I don't understand why there are so many comments on the text ...
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 18: 27 New
          +4
          Quote: RUnnm
          Then I don't understand why there are so many comments on the text ...

          Because the author is an artist - from THAT he sees ...
          And often he sees things different from the current reality. :)
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 3 September 2020 18: 35 New
    10
    The Spee had neither roll nor trim, the vehicles were in perfect order. The loss of a crew of 1 people was 200 officer and 1 sailors killed and 35 wounded.

    The cars were all right. Only the fuel cleaning and preparation system was destroyed. And desalination plants too.
    By the end of the battle, the artillery power of Harewood's detachment had more than halved, besides, only 360 shells remained on the most efficient Achilles. So a continuation could well have taken place.

    Everything would have been fine, but the very next day the Cumberland CRT came to the aid of Harwood's KRL. And it was not an Exeter-type "stub", but a full-fledged eight-gun Washingtonian, moreover, modernized with increased booking.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 3 September 2020 19: 31 New
      +3
      Quote: Alexey RA
      Only the fuel cleaning and preparation system was destroyed. And desalination plants too.

      Langsdorf does not mention the desalination plants in the report, unlike the fuel filtration system.
      Langsdorf complains more about the holes in the bow, which cannot be properly repaired and there is a high probability that they will "open" when trying to break through the North Atlantic.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 3 September 2020 19: 40 New
        +2
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        Langsdorf does not mention the desalination plants in the report, unlike the fuel filtration system.

        Hmmm ... I wonder where, then, where did the data on the destruction of desalination plants come from?
        The greatest blow - not known to the Allies at the time - was the destruction of its desalination and oil purification plants, which were vital to the ongoing operation of its diesel engines.

        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        Langsdorf complains more about the holes in the bow, which cannot be properly repaired and there is a high probability that they will "open" when trying to break through the North Atlantic.

        Before reaching the North Atlantic, he still needs to somehow deal with the remnants of Harwood's group reinforced by the Cumberland - and with a little more than a third of the BC for 28 cm.
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 3 September 2020 20: 00 New
          +1
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Hmmm ... I wonder where, then, where did the data on the destruction of desalination plants come from?

          Good question...
          1. 27091965
            27091965 3 September 2020 21: 42 New
            +2
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Hmmm ... I wonder where, then, where did the data on the destruction of desalination plants come from?

            Good question...


            The book is titled "Defeat at Sea; the Struggle and Final Destruction of the German Navy 1939-1945". The author points out that documents and information received from Admirals Theodor Krancke and Gerhard Wagner were used.


            Highlighted in light, on the case, one of the hits of the British.
            1. Macsen_wledig
              Macsen_wledig 3 September 2020 22: 20 New
              0
              Quote: 27091965i
              the author points out

              Who is the author?
              And the original title of the book is desirable.

              Quote: 27091965i
              Highlighted in light, on the case, one of the hits of the British.

              A false burun is highlighted on the hull - one of the elements of the camouflage scheme.
              1. 27091965
                27091965 3 September 2020 22: 33 New
                +3
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                A false burun is highlighted on the hull - one of the elements of the camouflage scheme.


                This is a shot from the chronicle "Sinking of the graf spee".
                Who is the author?
                And the original title of the book is desirable.

                The original title, the book came out under two different titles, I'll write it tomorrow, I hope you don't mind.
              2. 27091965
                27091965 4 September 2020 16: 09 New
                +3
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                Who is the author?
                And the original title of the book is desirable.


                The title of the book is "Swastika at sea: the struggle and destruction of the German Navy, 1939-1945" or "Defeat at sea; the struggle and eventual destruction of the German Navy, 1939-1945, by CD Bekker
                he also has books describing the German Navy.
                The information given in these books can be treated in different ways, but for fans of the history of the Navy, it is of certain interest.
                1. Macsen_wledig
                  Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 18: 57 New
                  +1
                  Thanks, I will take a look...
                  1. 27091965
                    27091965 4 September 2020 19: 53 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                    Thanks, I will take a look...


                    If you are interested in this topic, there are operational reports of the German Navy in the public domain, they also contain a lot of interesting things.
                    1. Macsen_wledig
                      Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 20: 24 New
                      0
                      Quote: 27091965i
                      If you are interested in this topic, there are operational reports of the German Navy in the public domain, they also contain a lot of interesting things.

                      Are you talking about SKL documents?
                      1. 27091965
                        27091965 4 September 2020 21: 10 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Are you talking about SKL documents?


                        I cannot give you an affirmative answer, perhaps these are the same documents. They are designated as the records of the operations department of the German Naval Headquarters, published in the USA, I will expose one scan so that you can compare;
                      2. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 21: 21 New
                        +2
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        They are designated as the records of the operations department of the German Naval Headquarters, published in the USA, I will expose one scan so that you can compare;

                        Here is the German version ....
                      3. 27091965
                        27091965 4 September 2020 21: 51 New
                        0
                        So these are the same documents, I hope there are no differences in them.
                      4. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 21: 59 New
                        +1
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        So these are the same documents, I hope there are no differences in them.

                        It all depends on the "quality" of the translator ...
  • unknown
    unknown 6 September 2020 07: 40 New
    +1
    All the strengthening of the booking consisted in the installation of a narrow belt along the waterline.
    Reservation of towers, wheelhouse, fire control devices has not changed.
    That is, the survivability of this "modernized" cruiser under fire from 283 mm guns would have been no higher than that of its counterpart that took part in the battle.
  • Grossvater
    Grossvater 3 September 2020 18: 58 New
    +7
    Yes, the bast is vigorous!
    A kind author, if not destiny to read popular literature, then at least look at the illustrations for your own article. Well, when did 37 millimeter paper become automatic?
    The picture is clearly visible. Manual loading, manual. Semi-automatic, albeit with good ballistics and in a very decent setup (though somewhat overly sophisticated).
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 3 September 2020 19: 22 New
      +9
      Quote: Grossvater
      A kind author, if not destiny to read popular literature, then at least look at the illustrations for your own article. Well, when did 37 millimeter paper become automatic?
      The picture is clearly visible. Manual loading, manual.

      Useless. In the comments to the article about "Hippers" I even posted a photo from Navweaps - the same one, with a pair of loaders holding "pencils" shells from the breeders.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 3 September 2020 19: 03 New
    16
    Let's agree right away: not "pocket battleships", not "nedolinkors". Heavy cruisers.

    As usual, the author did not read the contracts ... :)

    And, by the way, no one raised more questions about the production by Germany of the 280-mm and 305-mm guns "prohibited" by the Versailles Treaty.

    Interestingly, the author will name the article number of Versailles, which limited the caliber of artillery?

    Germany was not invited to Washington or London, so the Germans did what they wanted.

    What do you mean "what you wanted"? Everything within Versailles ...
    And tell me, what is London in 1928?

    The maximum rate of fire reached three rounds per minute, practical - no more than two.

    The Germans themselves believed that the practical rate of construction was 2,5 rounds / min.

    Until the very end of the service, the Sheera and Lyuttsov assault rifles fired under local control, using portable meter rangefinders.

    Which is typical for all German ships of that period ...

    But to fire using only radar data until the end of the war, the Germans did not risk it.

    Maisel tried ... But it turned out badly.
    Although in the article on "nightmares" the author did not consider it necessary to indicate this. :)

    Like the commander of the "Bismarck" Lutyens in his time.

    The author's interesting logic ... :)

    In general, Langsdorf cowardly blew up the ship and no less cowardly shot himself. That ended the career of the heavy cruiser Admiral Graf Spee.

    The author, as usual, is not in the subject ... :)

    ZY The car seems to have written out and switched to the "shaft".
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 3 September 2020 19: 19 New
      +4
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      What do you mean "what you wanted"? Everything within Versailles ...

      The panzerschiff couldn't fit exactly into the framework of Versailles:
      Article 190
      Germany is prohibited from building or acquiring any warships other than those intended to replace the armed units provided for in this Treaty (Article 181).
      The above replacement vessels cannot have a greater displacement than:
      10000 tons for armadillos,
      6000 "for light cruisers,
      800 "for counter destroyers,
      200 "for destroyers.

      However, looking at the Washington DCTs of other countries - who is without sin, let the first throw a stone. smile
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 3 September 2020 19: 53 New
        +1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The panzerschiff couldn't fit exactly into the framework of Versailles:

        And there it is not entirely clear what tons we are talking about ... :)
        1. Constanty
          Constanty 3 September 2020 20: 32 New
          0
          Not about any displacement. The standard is specified in 1922.
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 3 September 2020 20: 48 New
            0
            Quote: Constanty
            Not about any displacement. The standard is specified in 1922.

            Sorry, but can you decipher it?
            1. Constanty
              Constanty 3 September 2020 20: 56 New
              +2
              it is not entirely clear what displacement is referred to in the Versailles Treaty. structural displacement (the ship is empty, without supplies, cargo, fuel and ammunition), normal displacement (ship with reduced reserves, the term is differently defined in the fleet) or full (combat) displacement (displacement with full fuel and boiler water supply)?

              The standard displacement (a ship with a crew, ammunition, supplies, boiler water, etc., but without fuel and boiler water) was introduced only in the Washington Treaty of 1922 (i.e. 3 years after Versailles) as a unified measurement method weights of ships. Includes an equipped and ready-to-sail ship with a crew, ammunition, supplies, drinking water, boiler water, etc., but without a reserve of fuel and boiler water.
              1. Macsen_wledig
                Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 18: 33 New
                0
                Quote: Constanty
                it is not entirely clear what displacement is referred to in the Versailles Treaty.

                In general, after digging through the literature of that time, I can put forward the following hypothesis (in general, logical in the absence of any official explanations).
                1. Metric tons (the Germans themselves almost never used "long" tons).
                2. The indicated displacement is "normal" in the modern sense (or "constructive" in German): a ship with half of variable loads. This method was used by almost all countries before the introduction of the term "standard displacement".
                1. Andrey Shmelev
                  Andrey Shmelev 7 September 2020 06: 22 New
                  0
                  half variable cargo ship


                  how much was the Deutschland with "half variable loads"?

                  It seems to me that it is more logical to assume that with the signing of the Washington Treaty, the Germans said: everyone has a standard displacement, and let it be with us too.
        2. unknown
          unknown 6 September 2020 07: 43 New
          0
          About "English".
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 11: 45 New
            0
            Quote: ignoto
            About "English".

            This is nothing more than a guess: there is no indication of this in the text.
      2. Walking
        Walking 3 September 2020 20: 23 New
        +1
        These ships were laid down within the framework of the Versailles restrictions to replace the old battleships left in the German fleet.
    2. Romey
      Romey 3 September 2020 19: 23 New
      +6
      Apparently, yes, the author went to the shaft ... The commander of the "Bismarck" was K. 1 p. G. Lindemann, and not the head of the ship detachment, Vice Admiral Lutyens ...
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 3 September 2020 19: 09 New
    +6
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    something I'm confused

    Unfortunately, in the sources available to the author (or used by the author) there is no detailed description of the SUAO type 25. :)
  • Constanty
    Constanty 3 September 2020 19: 17 New
    +6
    I have the strong impression that the author has no idea of ​​the provisions of the Versailles Treaty as it relates to the German fleet. And they formed the basis for the parameters of "Deutschlanda" hence the declared displacement and caliber of the gun. The Erzaz Preussen was simply a supposed treaty intended to replace an old battleship abandoned by Germany after World War I.

    The Wassington Treaty has nothing to do with it. London all the more - especially since it was not there when the construction of Panzerschiff A.

    And "Kirov" was a heavy cruiser - It had more than 155mm of artillery - It was not a "Washington cruiser", but a heavy one, just like the "Veinticinco de Mayo".
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 3 September 2020 20: 13 New
      +2
      Quote: Constanty
      And they formed the basis for the parameters of "Deutschlanda" hence the declared displacement and caliber of the gun. "

      Versailles stipulated only displacement ...
      The caliber of the artillery was not indicated and, in theory, could be any (available).
      If the Germans had worked up to a digestible state of 42 cm, they would have tried to put them.

      Quote: Constanty
      And "Kirov" was a heavy cruiser - it had more than 155 mm of artillery,

      "Kirov" was an incomprehensible cruiser, since the classification of the Anglo-Soviet treaty was somewhat different from both of those in London.
      1. Constanty
        Constanty 3 September 2020 20: 26 New
        0
        Yes, but we are talking about battleships that could be replaced 20 years after launching, and those that were in Germany at that time had a caliber of 280 and 305 mm.

        Therefore, I consider these proposals of the author at least incorrect, so as not to say nonsense.

        And in 1925, after long backstage negotiations, France withdrew its troops from the Ruhr. And by the way, more questions about German production 280-mm and 305-mm "prohibited" by the Treaty of Versailles no one else raised guns.
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 3 September 2020 20: 32 New
          0
          Quote: Constanty
          Yes, but we are talking about battleships that could be replaced 20 years after launching, and those that were in Germany at that time had a caliber of 280 and 305 mm.

          None of the ships left by Germany had 12 "artillery of the main battery ... :)
          1. Constanty
            Constanty 3 September 2020 20: 42 New
            0
            In fact - ships under Art. 185 Treaties were to be transferred to the major allied powers. Remaining (nomen omen) 6 types "Deutschland" and "Lothringen" - 280mm my mistake
      2. Kwas
        Kwas 4 September 2020 07: 39 New
        0
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig

        "Kirov" was an incomprehensible cruiser, since the classification of the Anglo-Soviet treaty was somewhat different from both of those in London.

        Both main guns and armor are clearly superior to any light. In total, she is an ideal cruiser, she can escape (35 knots) from any heavy one and overtake and sink almost any light (except for some Italians). And as a last resort, to compete with the heavy.
        1. Victor Leningradets
          Victor Leningradets 4 September 2020 13: 40 New
          +3
          Kirov and his sisterships were seen as "cruisers" without the wacky heavy-light. And they could effectively be used as a scarecrow in the light forces.
          The 180 mm caliber is extremely effective against destroyers and cruisers, and, if necessary, could engage in battle against Deutschland. The speed made it possible to dictate the conditions of firing, and the standard rate of fire left a good chance of incapacitating any cruiser. Weaknesses - not the most perfect SUAO, weak armor, air defense and a small radius of action did not matter during the war in the Arctic, where he could meet Scheer. Similarly in 1944-1945. in the Baltic, where he could compete with pocket battleships.
          1. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 4 September 2020 17: 24 New
            0
            180mm caliber is extremely effective


            I'm not very sure about the quality of the Kirov's guns

            SUAO, weak armor, air defense and short range did not matter during the war in the Arctic


            it seems to me that in the range of the Luftwaffe air defense was of great importance
            and SUAO and weak armor always matter
          2. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 18: 42 New
            +1
            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            Quickness made it possible to dictate the conditions of firing

            Are you sure that the "Kirov" "sitting as a pig" for 1,5 m will give 35 knots?

            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            did not matter during the war in the Arctic, where he could meet with Scheer.

            Do you know what was the main problem for the Sevens of the Northern Fleet, apart from the weak corps?
            1. Kwas
              Kwas 6 September 2020 21: 11 New
              0
              Quote: Macsen_Wledig

              Are you sure that the "Kirov" "sitting as a pig" for 1,5 m will give 35 knots?

              I know nothing about the "pig", and 35 knots are official figures. Even if they lied a bit, then there are much more than 29 pickpocket nodes.
              1. Macsen_wledig
                Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 21: 46 New
                0
                Quote: Kwas
                I know nothing about the "pig"

                The cruisers of the project 26 had an "innate" nose trim of 1,5 ... 0,5 m, which decreased as fuel was consumed.

                Quote: Kwas
                and 35 knots are official figures.

                On running, in standard displacement - possible.
            2. Victor Leningradets
              Victor Leningradets 7 September 2020 10: 28 New
              0
              Sorry, Andrey and Maxim, for the weekend - no connection, so I will answer with a delay.
              The seaworthiness and strength of the Kaganovich-Petropavlovsk hull was tested by one of the most formidable typhoons at the Pacific Fleet on September 19.09.1958, XNUMX.
              In contrast to the pre-war 152-mm / 57 V-38, the 180-mm / 57 V-1K went a long way of testing and refinement and, according to experts, was quite satisfactory both in accuracy and (since 1940) in rate of fire.
              The "Pig" is straightened by reballasting and reserving, in addition, when testing at high speeds (about 33 - 34 knots) on Project 68K, it was necessary to take ballast in the bow to level the ship due to the trimming reaction moment of the propellers. Yes, and against Scheer's "miracles", a speed of 35 knots is not required, however, like any cruising armor, except for splinterproof armor. By analogy with the T-34-85 against the Tiger-2, you need a maneuver and a cannon, and armor against 8,8 cm / 71 will not help.
              German aviation had a limited range in the Arctic. Here it is more likely that the Sheer is in danger that the polar aviation will "graze" it and point the Kirov at it, God forbid, even the Kalinin from the Baku.
              I do not consider the cruisers of project 26 and 26 bis to be the pinnacle of the development of ships of this type, but there was a certain sense in the construction of such units. I believe that pr.68 was a pale imitation of world experience, in the desire to butter up our then "partners" and not the fruit of strategic alignments and tactical games.
              1. Macsen_wledig
                Macsen_wledig 7 September 2020 18: 49 New
                0
                Quote: Victor Leningradets
                The seaworthiness and strength of the Kaganovich-Petropavlovsk hull was tested by one of the most formidable typhoons at the Pacific Fleet on September 19.09.1958, XNUMX.

                As far as I know, the corps received such heavy damage that it was not involved in active service.

                Quote: Victor Leningradets
                The "pig" is straightened by ballasting and reserving,

                They did not do anything of the kind with the Kirovs (pre-booking), and changing the trim was not possible due to the peculiarities of dividing the hull into compartments.

                Quote: Victor Leningradets
                I believe that pr.68 was a pale imitation of world experience, in the desire to butter up our then "partners" and not the fruit of strategic alignments and tactical games.

                And what do you think a state bound by international treaties should have built?
          3. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 4 September 2020 21: 58 New
            0
            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            The 180 mm caliber is extremely effective against both destroyers and cruisers, and, if necessary, could join the battle against Deutschland

            Have you read a lot of old AiCh articles?

            180mm eliminates manual loading. 26pr should be compared with an MCT of the same Exeter type.
        2. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 18: 37 New
          +2
          Quote: Kwas
          Both main guns and armor are clearly superior to any light.

          Armor?
          Will the 50-mm "bare" armor of the Ave. 26 be more abruptly than the 114-mm on the 12,7-mm lining of the "town"? :)
          1. Kwas
            Kwas 6 September 2020 19: 18 New
            0
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            Armor?
            Will the 50-mm "bare" armor of the Ave. 26 be more abruptly than the 114-mm on the 12,7-mm lining of the "town"? :)

            Stop. There are both heavy and light towns. And then heavy London - 76mm, for which he was nicknamed "cardboard". And many lungs too. But in general, I admit, I got excited, I should have written it according to the main command line, which was enough due to the combination of advantages in range and speed.
            1. Macsen_wledig
              Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 19: 30 New
              0
              Quote: Kwas
              There are both heavy and light towns. And then at heavy London

              Towns are only light: "London" is a county ... :)
              Both geographically and as a "county" type MCT.
              And he has not 76 mm, but 89 mm on a 25 mm lining ...
              1. Kwas
                Kwas 6 September 2020 19: 39 New
                0
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                Towns are only light: "London" is a county ... :)
                Both geographically and as a "county" type MCT.
                And he has not 76 mm, but 89 mm on a 25 mm lining ...

                Yes, indeed Devonshire, etc. - counties. But I didn’t know what the county "London" was, and even now I doubt it. And they still had 76mm. Source - Sov. reference book "Foreign military fleets". And you?
                1. Macsen_wledig
                  Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 20: 32 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Kwas
                  But I didn’t know what the county "London" was, and even now I doubt it.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_London

                  Quote: Kwas
                  Source - Sov. reference book "Foreign military fleets". And you?

                  A.Raven & J.Roberts. British Cruisers in WW2.
                  1. Kwas
                    Kwas 6 September 2020 21: 22 New
                    0
                    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                    A.Raven & J.Roberts. British Cruisers in WW2.

                    UUU, I don't like to read English! But maybe. Ours could be wrong, and the Britons could lie.
                    And about the county, that's me, I was funny. Just hearing "London", well, who will remember some kind of "county"! wink
                    I have never seen the graffiti.
                    1. Macsen_wledig
                      Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 21: 48 New
                      0
                      Quote: Kwas
                      and the Britons lie.

                      Why is this Britam?
                      1. Kwas
                        Kwas 7 September 2020 06: 48 New
                        0
                        Out of love for art and out of habit. You know, an interesting observation in life, people often lie with very complex motives, and even without them at all. "Nowadays, my friend Eisman, you can't trust anyone, sometimes even yourself. I can." wink
                      2. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 7 September 2020 18: 51 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kwas
                        Out of love for art and out of habit. You know, an interesting observation in life, people often lie with very complex motives, and even without them at all.

                        Of course you have the right to think so, but N. Friedman (an American, if anything) worked in the British archives and also writes about the 89-mm belt.
                    2. Kwas
                      Kwas 7 September 2020 06: 48 New
                      0
                      Out of love for art and out of habit. You know, an interesting observation in life, people often lie with very complex motives, and even without them at all. "Nowadays, my friend Eisman, you can't trust anyone, sometimes even yourself. I can." wink
      3. unknown
        unknown 6 September 2020 07: 51 New
        0
        Side belt 50mm, on type 26 bis 76mm.
        Better with a deck - 50 mm.
        The weight of the armor on the 26-bis type is 1536 tons.
        This is more than the ideal La Galissoniere-class cruiser, while the Frenchman is better booked.
        But less than that of "condottieri" type D and even more E.
  • Denimax
    Denimax 3 September 2020 19: 29 New
    0
    I don't understand something, a fully stabilized gun seems to have two planes, vertically and horizontally. And what is the third?
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 3 September 2020 19: 53 New
      +4
      Full stabilization is carried out along three axes of rotation. That is, the complete stabilization of the AU is carried out by rolling, pitching and yaw angle.
      If there are two or one axles - partial stabilization.
      1. Denimax
        Denimax 3 September 2020 20: 28 New
        0
        Maybe the marine business has its own nuances, I don't know. But take a tank as an example, there is only stabilization in two planes. And it is worth noting that it shakes it on rough terrain no less than a ship. Let it be a heading or side or pitching roll, only two stabilization planes will still be responsible. Maybe some kind of confusion with three-dimensional space?
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 3 September 2020 20: 35 New
          +1
          And in the tank, full stabilization will look exactly the same:
          pitching angle;
          on the roll angle;
          by the angle of the course.
          1. Denimax
            Denimax 3 September 2020 20: 58 New
            0
            The roll angle stabilizes at once again in two planes, if the angle of displacement has occurred. Not?
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 3 September 2020 21: 32 New
              +4
              Do you want me to rewrite the textbook on the basics of stabilization systems in the comments?
    2. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 3 September 2020 19: 55 New
      +1
      Quote: Denimax
      And what is the third?

      There are three coordinates in space X, Y, Z.
      1. RUnnm
        RUnnm 3 September 2020 20: 15 New
        -5
        As I understand it, when rolling from side to side, the sight is also adjusted, since the parabola of the projectile's flight changes. And so, yes, probably, just the term "plane" here does not quite accurately reflect the essence of the aiming point adjustment. Well, that's how I, an amateur, understood this issue.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 3 September 2020 20: 36 New
          +2
          As I understand it, when rolling from side to side, the sight is also adjusted
          Line of sight and line of fire stabilization are two different types of stabilization.
          1. Denimax
            Denimax 3 September 2020 21: 12 New
            0
            Stabilization is for aiming only. For shooting, I have never heard this.
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 3 September 2020 21: 30 New
              +3
              For shooting, I have never heard this.
              The fact that you have not heard about this does not mean that it does not exist. And where will you go without stabilizing the firing line?
  • Constanty
    Constanty 3 September 2020 21: 49 New
    0
    Two 203-mm and eighteen 152-mm shells that hit him did not cause him fatal damage. The main artillery of the Spee remained fully operational, only one of the eight 150-mm guns failed, and the two 105-mm mounts, which disabled the British shells, did not play a big role initially.


    Damaged one gun of the main caliber of the A.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 3 September 2020 22: 22 New
      0
      Quote: Constanty
      Damaged one gun of the main caliber of the A.

      Sorry, but Langsdorf doesn't know ... :)
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 4 September 2020 00: 28 New
        +2
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        Sorry, but Langsdorf doesn't know ... :)

        And I even came across two damaged aft turret guns. There is some confusion in the damage lists it seems.
  • RUnnm
    RUnnm 3 September 2020 21: 50 New
    0
    Wow, I just found out that the author of the article, Roman, is also the author of the "Colorado cockroach" notes. Not expected...
  • pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 4 September 2020 06: 33 New
    +1
    The author did not enlighten the fate of "Lyuttsov" after the war. Was raised, used as a target. It seems like it was flooded in 1949, but my father told me that in the late 50s they shot at his body, which was obviously lying somewhere aground. Unfortunately, it is no longer possible to ask again ...
  • Kwas
    Kwas 4 September 2020 08: 02 New
    +2
    "That is, on the one hand, this cruiser had to easily cope with a light cruiser, calmly deal with a heavy one and, if necessary, simply escape from the battle cruiser at the expense of speed."
    He would not have escaped from the battle cruiser anywhere. That "Hood", that "Ripals" gave under 30 knots, and there were also "Lyons", also over 28 knots. A total of 6 pieces, in the light of which it is generally not clear what the Germans were counting on? Obviously not for confrontation with Britain. But then why make her angry?
    And further. Each ship is designed to optimize speed, armament and defense. In conditions of displacement limitation, it was necessary to sacrifice something, but the Germans wanted to outwit everyone in all respects. This never ends well. I had to economize on everything "unimportant", such as ammunition, survivability, habitability, guidance system ... And without gaining dominance in any of the parameters. Even in the main battery, which is certainly superior in caliber to heavy cruisers, it was inferior in rate of fire to both heavy and light ones. What made it possible for them to use the old tactics of "throwing a bunch of shells". Which was under La Plata.
    1. Andrey Shmelev
      Andrey Shmelev 4 September 2020 17: 27 New
      0
      there were also "Lyons", also over 28 nodes. Total 6 pieces


      You should read Wiki, or something:
      Since March 1920, the Lion was in reserve at Rosyth [59] On May 30, 1922, according to the Washington Treaty on the Reduction of Naval Arms [26], she was expelled from the fleet, and on January 31, 1924 the ship was sold for 77 pounds. [000], and then dismantled for metal [51]. "Princess Royal" in 52 was also sent to the reserve, in the middle of the year they tried to sell it in Chile, but failed. On February 1920, 22, she became the flagship of the Scottish Navy, and in December 1922 she was removed from the lists of the fleet and sold for scrap. [1922]

      master the passage above, enlighten about "Ripalza"
      1. Kwas
        Kwas 6 September 2020 19: 56 New
        0
        Okay, I admit it partially. And the Tiger? And what's wrong with the Ripals?
        1. Andrey Shmelev
          Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 20: 01 New
          0
          And the Tiger?


          In accordance with the London Treaty of 1930 [approx. 13] to reduce naval armaments "Tiger" was subject to write-off. On April 28, 1931, the cruiser was withdrawn from the battlecruisers squadron and on May 15 transferred to the reserve at Davenport. Here on March 30, 1931, he was removed from the fleet, and in February 1932 he was sold for scrap. On March 22, 1932, he was disarmed at Rosyth and towed to the shipyard for cutting into metal. [81]

          + please pay close attention to his booking:



          well, how does the pickpocket get?
          1. Kwas
            Kwas 6 September 2020 20: 27 New
            0
            Whose booking is this?
            “Cats” have the main belt - 229, “Reepals” - 152, after modernization also 229, plus boules, and whose is it?
            1. Andrey Shmelev
              Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 20: 29 New
              0
              Whose booking is this?
              The "Cats" have the main belt - 229


              https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Tiger_(1913)
              1. Kwas
                Kwas 6 September 2020 20: 48 New
                0
                Do not read "Wikipedia" for the coming dream. All cats initially have a main belt - 229mm. Remembering that even the "Invincibles" had it 152mm, it is somehow illogical to assume that it was reduced, is it not?
                1. Andrey Shmelev
                  Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 20: 51 New
                  0
                  All cats initially have a main belt - 229mm.


                  yes, but he did not protect the ammunition cellar (only KTU)

                  to assume that it was reduced is somehow a bit illogical, isn't it?


                  you will laugh, but the defense of "Tiger" was really reduced after WWI,
                  but this is still my secret and a super surprise especially for AiCh :)
                  1. Kwas
                    Kwas 7 September 2020 06: 57 New
                    0
                    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                    yes, but he did not protect the ammunition cellar (only KTU)

                    This concerned only the aft tower, which is of little importance, since he will catch up, and it was better on the Tiger.

                    "The maximum thickness of the booking remained exactly
                    the same as on "Lyon", but distributed on a larger
                    area. A feature was the spread of airborne
                    armor in the middle of the ship to the forecastle deck and
                    reservation of locations of the anti-mine battery
                    artillery. In addition, there was an alternation of thickness
                    deck armor, unlike other cruisers
                    third generation.
                    Major changes included: board booking
                    almost from bow to stern; 229 mm main armor belt
                    went below the waterline at normal displacement
                    0,69 m instead of 0,91 mu "Lion", but at the same time added
                    76-mm armor strip 1,15 m wide below the armor
                    belts between the outer sides of the barbets of towers "A" and
                    "Y" (this increased the depth of the armored
                    belts up to 1,84 m); added 152mm battery armor
                    guns along the side in the middle of the ship between the deck
                    forecastle and upper deck from the outside of the barbette
                    tower "A" to the back of the barbette of tower "Y", which
                    ended with a 127-mm transverse bulkhead in the bow
                    parts of the ship and 102 mm in the stern; strengthened booking
                    upper deck within the battery area; home
                    the deck in the bow of the ship was 25,4 mm thick
                    with increasing thickness of the main deck armor
                    behind the barbette of the tower "Y"; the thickness of the lower deck outside
                    front transverse bulkhead increased from 64 mm to 76
                    mm; the rear edge of the armored deck ended, not
                    reaching the stern 7,63 m.
                    The main armor belt "Tiger" with a total length of 197,8 m
                    (92,9% of the ship's waterline length) extended into the bow
                    and farther aft than the Lion. Thick 229
                    mm and a length of 98 m, it was located from the front
                    the conning tower to the inside of the barbette of the "Y" tower and
                    the rear end of the capacitor room. Its upper
                    the edge was at the level of the main deck, and the lower
                    went into the water 0,69 m below the waterline at
                    normal displacement and 1,07 m with a draft of
                    full load. It continued into the bow at the same
                    height, as in the middle of the ship, at first 127 thick,
                    then 102 mm, before reaching 9,2 m to the stem. Wherein
                    127-mm armor belt at a length of 25,6 m went behind the barbet
                    tower "A", and 102-mm at a length of 36,7 m went further.
                    With a thickness of 127-102 mm, the armor belt extended to the stern,
                    before reaching 7,6 m to the sternpost, at the same height as
                    in the middle. At the same time, the 127-mm armor belt on
                    length of 8,5 m went behind the barbet of the tower "Y", and 102 mm on
                    length of 29 m went further. "

                    In general, yes, maybe the "pickpocket" had a chance, but little.
                    1. Andrey Shmelev
                      Andrey Shmelev 7 September 2020 07: 00 New
                      0
                      what is this strange information? where is it from?
                    2. Andrey Shmelev
                      Andrey Shmelev 7 September 2020 07: 10 New
                      0
                      here is a diagram from Oscar Parks volume 7


                    3. Andrey Shmelev
                      Andrey Shmelev 7 September 2020 07: 21 New
                      0
                      The main armor belt "Tiger" with a total length of 197,8 m
                      (92,9% of the ship's waterline length) extended into the bow
                      and farther aft than the Lion. Thick 229
                      mm and length 98 m
                      it was located from the front
                      the conning tower to the inside of the barbette of the "Y" tower and
                      the rear end of the capacitor room.


                      read carefully :)
          2. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 20: 53 New
            0
            Quote: Andrei Shmelev
            + please pay close attention to his booking:

            Maybe then don't go out to sea at all?
            And if you look closely, for 13,5 "greenboys" the "pickpocket" is generally "transparent". :)
            1. Andrey Shmelev
              Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 20: 57 New
              0
              for 13,5 "greenboys" the "pickpocket" is generally "transparent". :)


              the pickpocket will hit first :)

              but it's just that the question of the doom of a pickpocket when meeting a cat becomes a bit controversial
              1. Macsen_wledig
                Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 21: 47 New
                0
                Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                the pickpocket will hit first :)

                If it hits ... :)
                1. Andrey Shmelev
                  Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 21: 48 New
                  0
                  well, so the cat needs to get in too :)
    2. unknown
      unknown 6 September 2020 07: 55 New
      0
      And why then “Sharnghost” could not get away from “King George V” having an advantage in passport speed?
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 11: 59 New
        +3
        The karma of the Germans is heavy.
        He practically left, but something happened in KO-1 and they were able to catch up with him.
        The evening battle began in 1650 at a distance of approx. 65 cable. in 1920, Fraser gave the order to cease fire at a distance of 105 cab, and gave the order to prepare a radiogram that it was not possible to catch up with the German and he was retreating to the convoy, but then (about 1835) the rangefinders reported that the distance was sharply reduced.
        That is, in an hour and a half, the Scharnhorst was quite ahead of itself by 4 miles, and if it had not been zig-zagging to periodically shoot from tower B, it would probably have been able to escape.
        1. Andrey Shmelev
          Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 21: 16 New
          0
          and if he hadn't gone zig-zag to periodically shoot from tower B


          it seems to me that he did not walk "straight and evenly" so that it would be more difficult to hit him :)
          that at a distance of about 70 cables it was very likely
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 21: 43 New
            0
            Quote: Andrei Shmelev

            it seems to me that he did not walk "straight and evenly" so that it would be more difficult to hit him :)
            that at a distance of about 70 cables it was very likely

            Judging by the gasket, it was not an anti-artillery zigzag ...
            1. Andrey Shmelev
              Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 21: 44 New
              0
              I will look with pleasure, if you share, it became interesting myself, I always thought that he knocked down sighting
              1. Macsen_wledig
                Macsen_wledig 7 September 2020 18: 57 New
                +2
                Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                I will look with pleasure, if you share, it became interesting myself, I always thought that he knocked down sighting

                Sure, not a problem.


                Consider only that the scheme was built by the British according to the data of the combat strip and the DoY Gunnery plot ...
                1. Andrey Shmelev
                  Andrey Shmelev 7 September 2020 19: 06 New
                  0
                  Thanks a lot!

                  offhand:
                  speed up to 30 miles per hour, a broken line from 1 to 3 miles, that is, from 2 to 6 minutes, it is very similar to a zigzag against artillery while maintaining the maximum speed of advance (more active maneuvering is unacceptable here, since it will reduce the speed too much)
                  but I'll think about it
        2. Engineer
          Engineer 6 September 2020 21: 42 New
          +1
          I can hardly imagine this collision
          The Duke opened fire at 16-51 with 65 cabs covering and hitting in the first salvo. At the same time, at the beginning of the battle, thanks to 133-mm installations, Charles was "excellently illuminated"
          Then he shoots for an hour and a half at close range without much success, although 18 coverage out of 24 volleys was announced at 31-52. Normal or not very good?
          At 1808 hours when the range had now opened to 16,000 yards and shell splash observation by radar became difficult; Fraser signalled the Force 2 destroyers to report DUKE OF YORK's fall of shot.

          What is it like ? With the 85 cab already have problems distinguishing bursts of heavy 14-inches on the radar? This is at the end of 1943. What about the lights that worked so effectively in the outset of the fight?
          he practically left, but something happened in KO-1 and they were able to catch up with him.

          Something like getting into KO # 1 at 18-21, isn't it? Again, everything is not so simple?)
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 22: 57 New
            +2
            Quote: Engineer
            Then he shoots for an hour and a half at close range without much success, although 18 coverage out of 24 volleys was announced at 31-52. Normal or not very good?

            Of the 31 covers, 16 are at less than 200 yards.
            And the distance was increasing all the time. All the same, in an hour and a half the Scharnhorst got off 4 miles, and 105 cables are quite a lot for a daytime battle.

            Quote: Engineer
            What is it like ? With the 85 cab already have problems distinguishing bursts of heavy 14-inches on the radar? This is at the end of 1943.

            In general, it is not clear where these British data come from: there is nothing of the kind in either Fraser's report or the Battle Summary.
            In addition, the type 284M radar could not see bursts: the wavelength was still too long.

            Quote: Engineer
            Something like getting into KO # 1 at 18-21, isn't it? Again, everything is not so simple?)

            Exactly...
            The joke of humor is that there was a rescued from KO-1, and in the British reports on the interrogation of prisoners there is not a word about a shell hitting KO.
            In addition, the drop in the distance was noticed by the British about 25 minutes after the "hit", and this is a very long time, since according to the recollections of the survivors, the Scharnhorst completely lost its speed for some time: without steam it became TZA-1, TZA-3 safety valves tripped ...
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 8 September 2020 13: 30 New
              0
              Thank you for your reply. So far there is absolutely no time to collect and bring sources for discussion. Apparently, another time
              1. Macsen_wledig
                Macsen_wledig 8 September 2020 14: 17 New
                0
                Quote: Engineer
                Apparently, another time

                In principle, you can continue on other sites.
                For example, on Tsushima, there is a long topic ...

                http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=54
        3. Victor Leningradets
          Victor Leningradets 7 September 2020 10: 35 New
          +1
          Aha, Maxim!
          Here is a model of the battle of a super-heavy cruiser 9x283-mm / 55 against a super-protected convoy.
          What was missing? Armor - well, no! The speed was not enough.
          If a German were 5 - 6 thousand tons lighter and 3 - 4 meters, he would have produced a couple more knots at the same power. But for this it is necessary to "remove" the excess vertical armor.
          1. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 7 September 2020 16: 04 New
            0
            And the projectile would have flown into KO-1 through the belt, so ironically)
            1. Victor Leningradets
              Victor Leningradets 9 September 2020 10: 23 New
              0
              The projectile flew through the upper 45-mm "under-belt" and hit the stupid 80-mm glacis on which it worked, giving a lot of secondary fragments in addition to its own.
              With a successive hit in the belt of 150-200 mm and the bevel, the 105-mm projectile would be reflected from the bevel and (if it had not lost the fuse at the same time) it would have exploded somewhere at the level of the middle deck without serious consequences. If it hit the belt above the bevel, the projectile would have normalized a little and would have passed over the armored deck (without glacis!) With a rupture and tangential damage from its fragments. Taking into account the thickness of the 80-mm deck, no serious damage is expected.
              1. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 9 September 2020 10: 36 New
                0
                so if instead of

                upper "underbelt" 45 mm


                will

                150 - 200 mm


                I don't understand how:

                Be a German 5 - 6 thousand tons lighter and 3 - 4 meters


                :)
                1. Victor Leningradets
                  Victor Leningradets 9 September 2020 13: 14 New
                  0
                  The upper "underbelt" and glacis is the hit history (fact) on December 26.12.1943, XNUMX.
                  The main belt 150 - 200 mm is on STKr instead of the main belt 350 mm on Scharnhorst By the way, how did he save Scharnhorst in battle?
                  With a constant length and width of 26 - 27 m, and a full displacement of 32 - 33 thousand tons, with 160 thousand hp you can expect speeds in excess of 33 knots, well adjusted for storm 31,5 - 32 knots. But for this it is necessary to drop 800 - 1000 T for armament (armoring of main battery turrets and 150-mm artillery), 2500 - 3000 T for armoring (vertical), 1000 - 1500 tons for fuel and supply. In addition, the body will also become lighter, although not too much.
                  Just don't sign me up as an AI fan! It's just interesting to see what can happen with a different approach to the project.
                  1. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 9 September 2020 13: 42 New
                    -1
                    Just don't sign me up as an AI fan!


                    I'm a fan and ready to discuss:

                    By the way, how did he save Scharnhorst in battle?


                    formally 350 mm Wotan Harte + 105 mm bevel + PTP can hold any projectile,
                    it's not the belt itself that is to blame, but the decks
                    1.No one bothered to raise the main armored deck up a meter in the flat part and generally avoid the need for glacis
                    2.Nobody bothered to make the main armored deck in a flat part of 50 mm and cover the main belt with a deck 80 mm thick, removing another armored deck above

                    what can happen with a different approach to the project


                    a ship worth 150 million Reichsmarks, which can be sunk with a high probability by the first 15-inch shell
                    it is good against the background of 100 million Reichsmarks for "Hipper"
                    but bad against the background of 200 million Reichsmarks for "Bismarck"
                    1. Macsen_wledig
                      Macsen_wledig 9 September 2020 18: 39 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                      1.No one bothered to raise the main armored deck up a meter in the flat part and generally avoid the need for glacis

                      How much will the displacement increase?
                      1. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 9 September 2020 19: 12 New
                        0
                        How much will the displacement increase?


                        tons for a maximum of 300 (this is me with a margin).
                        well, put some more ballast

                        but the most protected buoyancy reserve will be added
                  2. Macsen_wledig
                    Macsen_wledig 9 September 2020 18: 32 New
                    0
                    Quote: Victor Leningradets
                    The upper "underbelt" and glacis is the hit history (fact) on December 26.12.1943, XNUMX.

                    Not at all a fact ...
                    You described by no one and nothing confirmed the theory put forward by Doolin and Garzke many years after the war.
                    “In hot pursuit,” the British believed that the shell in the “Scharnhorst” fell under the belt, and not with damage to the boilers, but to the shaft of the starboard side.
                    The Germans believed that a torpedo came to KO-1 from one of the EMs.
                    1. Andrey Shmelev
                      Andrey Shmelev 9 September 2020 19: 08 New
                      0
                      "Hot on the trail" the British believed that the shell in the "Scharnhorst" fell under the belt, and not with damage to the boilers


                      there is such a topic, but Doolin and Garzke put forward their own version, since others explain poorly the loss of stroke (if without damaging the boilers)
                      1. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 9 September 2020 19: 55 New
                        0
                        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                        there is such a topic, but Doolin and Garzke put forward their own version,

                        One bullshit, the acrobatic brothers drew it on the midsection without taking into account the course angles and other things ...
                        And this stuff, such as decks, barbets and everyone else, really rolls.

                        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                        as others explain poorly the loss of stroke (if without damaging the boilers)

                        The reason for the "death" of the boilers is not necessarily a shell.
                      2. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 9 September 2020 20: 39 New
                        0
                        What do you think can cause such a massive temporary exit from standing boilers?
                      3. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 9 September 2020 21: 21 New
                        0
                        Personally, my opinion is technical problems.
                        "Charles" all his career suffered from problems with boilers: as soon as the Germans did not dance with a tambourine around them ...
                        And then there was a day in an intense mode of full combat moves, and the last hour and a half, I think, in critical modes ... Well, it sank.
                      4. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 9 September 2020 21: 24 New
                        +1
                        Personally, my opinion is technical problems.


                        well, if not combat damage, then what else

                        what specifically options:
                        failure of automation, for example, - I don't believe it, it seemed to be individual for each boiler
                        something burned out - especially, burns out / burns out / breaks / flows in only one
                        maybe a version of the British shell type damaged something and there was a power failure of the group of boilers - is there any detailed information on the KO-1 device?
                      5. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 9 September 2020 22: 19 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                        what specific options:

                        Tsushima has been sorting it out for a long time ...
                        http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=54
                      6. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 9 September 2020 22: 52 New
                        0
                        thanks, I'll read it over the weekend, unsubscribe
                      7. Victor Leningradets
                        Victor Leningradets 10 September 2020 10: 44 New
                        +1
                        As for Doulin and Garzke's version, it is the most plausible.
                        If the boilers started to be covered, the process would not be instantaneous, but long. One boiler - about 10% of the power on the shafts, taking into account auxiliary mechanisms, and this is a maximum of 1 stroke node, and then a hit - and a stroke drop from 30 to 8 nodes!
                        Okay, let's have a shaft - 33% power loss plus an increase in body resistance. Although the cubic formula at high speeds is incorrect (the course of battle cruisers at 60% power is 86,6%), we will consider the loss of speed 15% (of which 12,6% is according to the cubic formula). We'll get at least 25,5 knots!
                        But if the projectile inflicted massive fragmentation damage in the boiler room, then this will cause an accident in the ring steam line with a complete loss of pressure! At the time of sectioning the damage and restoring the boiler operability, at least for the turbine on the central shaft, the stroke will easily drop to 8 knots. Then you will have to re-build pressure and go to the remaining steam capacity. And Koenig's report "I can give a run of 22 knots" - evidence of the complete failure of one boiler room due to hit and problems with boilers in the other two. It seems that no more than half of the boilers are in operation.
                        So, yeah!
                      8. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 10 September 2020 10: 46 New
                        0
                        this is very convincing, thank you very much
                      9. Victor Leningradets
                        Victor Leningradets 10 September 2020 11: 36 New
                        +1
                        You're welcome!
                        Just in my youth I saw something similar to the BOD pr. 1134A. The boiler turned sour (overheating of the superheater), and we keep the connection going without tension. And we simulated the accident of the ring steam pipeline at the facility.
                    2. Macsen_wledig
                      Macsen_wledig 10 September 2020 19: 19 New
                      0
                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      As for Doulin and Garzke's version, it is the most plausible.

                      It SEEMS plausible yet
                      1. Do not start looking at the map: and it follows from it that the Scharnhorst was either directly aft to the DoY, or with a very acute heading angle to the starboard side, which means that the projectile could not physically fly through the side, only through the decks.
                      2. You don't take the blueprints for the upper, battery and armored decks and you begin to understand that to hit the notorious glacis, the projectile must fly along a VERY intricate trajectory against all the laws of physics ...

                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      and then a hit - and a drop in speed from 30 to 8 knots !.

                      According to the prisoners, TZA-1 became without steam, fuses were knocked out from the concussion at TZA 2 and 3. then they were launched. TZA-1 remained standing, apparently. Under two TZA ships of the "Scharnhorst" type, so to speak "nee", could go 26 knots, taking into account the fact that from the 39th year the ship became quite heavier and aged knots) and the state of the sea - 43 knots under two TZA seem to be quite real.

                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      this will cause the ring steam line to fail with a complete loss of pressure!

                      The Germans did not have an annular steam pipeline: each TZA was powered by a separate group of boilers, that is, the shutdown of one KO disabled the corresponding echelon of the power plant.
                      Theoretically, the valve system made it possible to "switch" KO between TZA, but for some reason the Germans did not use this opportunity.

                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      So, yeah!

                      In general, not aha ... :)
                    3. Victor Leningradets
                      Victor Leningradets 11 September 2020 09: 34 New
                      0
                      By laying your map, you get the Scharnhorst heading angle relative to Duke of York of about 330 degrees, the projectile could easily catch on the upper belt, although it could also have caught on through the deck from a distance of about 90 cab according to the American formula.
                    4. Macsen_wledig
                      Macsen_wledig 12 September 2020 10: 51 New
                      0
                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      Your version about the separation of the German boiler and turbine plant does not correspond to reality.

                      There are too many things to break through ...
                  3. Victor Leningradets
                    Victor Leningradets 11 September 2020 13: 51 New
                    0
                    Your version about the separation of the German boiler and turbine plant does not correspond to reality. The linear arrangement uses an annular sectioned main steam line and a separate steam line to provide auxiliary mechanisms. Another thing is that the boilers, depending on the mode of movement, are connected in groups.
                    Sure sure!
                  4. Macsen_wledig
                    Macsen_wledig 12 September 2020 11: 04 New
                    0
                    Quote: Victor Leningradets
                    Your version about the separation of the German boiler and turbine plant does not correspond to reality.

                    As you wish...


                    Quote: Victor Leningradets
                    Another thing is that the boilers, depending on the mode of movement, are connected in groups.

                    In the Soviet Navy, it is possible.
                    But not in German.

                    Quote: Victor Leningradets
                    Sure sure!

                    And again, not aha ... :)
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 7 September 2020 19: 04 New
    +2
    Quote: Victor Leningradets
    Aha, Maxim!

    Not aha at all ...

    The convoy was not "super-protected" at all. It's just that the cards went badly: intelligence data on the presence of a group of enemy heavy ships in the sea reached the Scharnhorst with a very long delay, which gave the British time to push Fraser's compound to the area of ​​operation.
  • unknown
    unknown 11 September 2020 17: 09 New
    0
    Or maybe the problem was similar to the Oslyabi problem?
    Construction overload, and the deck was lower than the project was supposed to.
    The shell hit the coaming, but what if the deck were higher, in the right place?
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 12 September 2020 11: 08 New
      0
      Quote: ignoto
      Or maybe the problem was similar to the Oslyabi problem?

      With regard to artillery, such deep digging is pointless ...
      Since artillery shooting is a very probabilistic process.
      In addition, no one knows how the shell actually went (if it was a shell) ...
  • Living7111972
    Living7111972 4 September 2020 10: 45 New
    +3
    The 6-inch ones in the figs were unnecessary. Ships were more often drowned by explosions and the discovery of Kingstones, usually after inspection. Then, what are torpedoes for, swamp transports, not to butt battleships. And the uncontrolled fire of 15 cm, in the battle at La Plata, only interfered with the adjustment of the main battery. It seems to me that the medium caliber was set just to be. If it were possible to conduct centralized fire, it would be possible, but to shoot with such a caliber with direct fire at the pelvis is expensive and stupid.
    And what about the diesel engine? The beginning of the way...
    1. Andrey Shmelev
      Andrey Shmelev 4 September 2020 17: 41 New
      0
      6-inch figs were unnecessary

      each MPL / 28 is replaced by a Dop. L. C / 31? :)
    2. Kwas
      Kwas 6 September 2020 20: 06 New
      0
      Quote: sala7111972
      The 6-inch ones in the figs were unnecessary.

      They were typically mine action. You won't really get into a destroyer from 11-inches, and if anything, you really need to quickly extinguish it.
      1. Living7111972
        Living7111972 8 September 2020 13: 47 New
        0
        Destroyers for the raider are the last danger he can meet in the ocean, and 105 mm artillery (anti-aircraft and rapid-fire) would perfectly cope with them! 15 cm guns amused the admirals.
        1. Kwas
          Kwas 8 September 2020 14: 49 New
          0
          Even before WW1, it was believed that 100mm was not enough to defeat a destroyer, 120mm was put on Gangut, 130mm on Maria. And in most fleets they took 114-127-152.
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 4 September 2020 12: 25 New
    +2
    Absolutely unnecessary and expensive ships.
    In their place, with the same success, they could use auxiliary cruisers for raiding.
    Only at the end did they shoot at the main enemy in the East, but for this it is better and cheaper to make monitors like the Finnish Ilmarinen.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 18: 44 New
      +1
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Absolutely unnecessary and expensive ships.

      Naturally, after 90 years it is better known ... :)
    2. unknown
      unknown 6 September 2020 08: 09 New
      +2
      Absolutely needed ships.
      And expensive ..., so Germany at that time built all large ships expensive.
      The issue is not in the cost in comparison with similar ships from other countries, in battle the commander will think about this last, but in the competent tactics of use.
      And with these, the Germans, in the surface fleet, were not very ...
      The Germans lacked seaworthy light cruisers and seaworthy destroyers with reliable KTU.
      They managed to make the only seaworthy cruiser a training one, and this despite the fact that in other fleets everything that "kept afloat and could move" fought.
      And it's even more fun with destroyers. In the real displacement of the German destroyers, it was possible to create much more seaworthy, stronger armed ships with a reliable KTU.
  • Unknown
    Unknown 4 September 2020 12: 54 New
    +1
    the article is interesting. the author, laying out the combat characteristics of cruisers, showed what kind of war at sea Germany was preparing for. You can argue as much as you like about the thickness of the armor, the quality of artillery, etc., this is all secondary. the main thing is speed, means of detecting the enemy, anti-aircraft weapons. all this corresponded to the naval war which the Germans were waging. the time of battles of battleships, with the aim of destruction in artillery duels, enemy ships are a thing of the past. aviation and submarines entered the scene. The main task of the fleet is to destroy the merchant fleet of a potential enemy, with the subsequent collapse of the entire industry, depending on overseas supplies. for this purpose, these cruisers were built, and it must be admitted that the Germans coped with this task at the first stage of the war. so that the German admirals imposed on the British the war for which they were preparing, forcing them to scatter the forces of the fleet, to search for raiders, to guard convoys. The British did not immediately develop a system of counteraction to such tactics, time passed, and the losses were considerable. Well, the Italian fleet with powerful battleships and because, he never played a leading role in the Mediterranean, standing at the bases, being exposed to air strikes from the British, and from the same Germans losing expensive ships to no good, as were the French among other things.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 4 September 2020 15: 52 New
      +3
      Quote: Unknown
      so that the German admirals imposed on the British the war for which they were preparing, forcing them to scatter the forces of the fleet, to search for raiders, to guard convoys

      Uh-huh ... imposed on Britain the war she was preparing for, building a crowd of cruisers for RN. smile
      Quote: Unknown
      the British did not immediately develop a system of countering such tactics

      Almost immediately - fortunately that there was an experience of the last war. During the raiding "Spee" in the South Atlantic, five British-French KPUG were deployed, three of which were part of the AB. So it was only a matter of time before the raider was discovered.
      Quote: Unknown
      Well, the Italian fleet with powerful battleships, etc., never played a leading role in the Mediterranean, staying at the bases, being subjected to air strikes and from the British, and from the same Germans losing expensive ships to no avail

      It is very difficult to fight with a linear fleet when you have to drain fuel from the LK for the escort of African KOH. smile
      1. Unknown
        Unknown 5 September 2020 12: 37 New
        0
        on v.o there was already an article about the actions of the Kriegsmarine on the sea lanes of Britain there everything is painted and laid out on the shelves
        ,, Raiders against cruisers ,, we will not return to her. I repeat, cruisers of the Deutschland type were a headache for Britain until the beginning of 1945. after the breakthrough of the main forces of the Kriegsmarine into the ports of Germany in 1942, British intelligence did not make more mistakes, and tracked all the movements of the German cruisers, with good reason. so despite the mediocre com. , the ships turned out to be successful for conducting a raider war at the initial stage of WWII. Having achieved complete air supremacy, the allies drove all the large ships of the Kriegsmarine to the vmb, and there they systematically finished off from the air, without exception, but they spoiled the blood of the allies.
    2. unknown
      unknown 6 September 2020 08: 12 New
      0
      Germany was actually preparing for the last war.
      And she was still building the "Open North Sea" fleet.
      It was built unsuccessfully ...
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 12: 02 New
        0
        Quote: ignoto
        It was built unsuccessfully ...

        It is quite enough to contain France and other Baltic limitrophes.
        When they decided to globally play the cruising war, they came up with Plan Z /
  • Victor Leningradets
    Victor Leningradets 4 September 2020 13: 51 New
    +2
    Stupid ships, really.
    Judging by the purpose of a cruiser, along the way - fast battleships, and in fact, incredibly expensive raiders.
    Only single ships and weakly guarded convoys (Jervis Bay) could attack, only the unfortified coast (Baltic, Pomorie) could fire.
    Poor armor and mediocre survivability led to the refusal to take active actions against serious forces (Oslofjord, New Year's shame, Dixon).
    At the same time, an important achievement was the grouping of four diesel engines on one shaft, which made it possible to maintain an optimal driving mode. But this is only relevant for the economic and cruising course.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 18: 53 New
      +2
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Judging by the purpose of a cruiser, along the way - fast battleships, and in fact, incredibly expensive raiders.

      This is because history has developed that way.
      Raiders are one very distant hypostasis of "pickpockets" and not against the British, but against the French.
      Their main purpose was operations in the Baltic against the fleets of the RKKF, Scandinavians and any other Poles ...

      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      New Year's disgrace

      Why attribute the actions of one particular commander to a "bad ship"?
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 4 September 2020 22: 09 New
        +1
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        Their main purpose was operations in the Baltic against the fleets of the RKKF, Scandinavians and any other Poles ...

        The RKKF had battleships however. For all their clumsy Deutschlands they will grind to powder. So just run away ..
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 22: 26 New
          0
          Quote: Saxahorse
          The RKKF had battleships however.

          Six against three?
          Plus with a more advanced SUAO.
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 4 September 2020 22: 31 New
            +1
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            Six against three?

            Six whom? Deutschlandow? There were like three of them :)
            1. Macsen_wledig
              Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 23: 01 New
              +1
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Six whom? Deutschlandow? There were like three of them :)

              In the Weimar Republic, they planned to build 6 with the laying of the last (Panzerschiff F) in 1936.
              After the start of preparations for the signing of the Anglo-German Treaty (in 34 it was not yet entirely clear what the treaty would be), the idea arose to build two more "battleships" (G and H) with a bookmark in 1936 and 1939. According to the updated program, the battleships F, G and H were to be built according to the project of the battleship D.
              1. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 4 September 2020 23: 32 New
                +1
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                According to the updated program, the battleships F, G and H were to be built according to the project of the battleship D.

                This battleship, D, was already twice the size of the Deutschlands, however, 20000 tons. Moreover, it still had insufficient speed. However, the Germans reasonably stabbed him, moving on to more or less full-fledged ships of the Scharnhorst type.

                The point is that the first three Deutschlands were radically inferior to Sevastopol in terms of armor and firepower. Even with a heavy cruiser, at best, they could only compete on an equal footing, and a battleship, even a little outdated, was too tough for them.
                1. Macsen_wledig
                  Macsen_wledig 5 September 2020 11: 25 New
                  0
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  However, the Germans reasonably stabbed him, moving on to more or less full-fledged ships of the Scharnhorst type.

                  As soon as the Anglo-German treaty was signed, which de jure canceled the Versailles restrictions.

                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Even with a heavy cruiser, at best, they could only compete on an equal footing, and a battleship, even a little outdated, is too tough for them.

                  Well, what can you do if the responsible commanders of the Reichsmarine thought differently ...
                  1. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 5 September 2020 18: 57 New
                    0
                    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                    Well, what can you do if the responsible commanders of the Reichsmarine thought differently ...

                    The Reichsmarine's opinion is generally a big mystery. The Deutschlands are just an example of an unbalanced ship with stupid performance characteristics. For example, I could not understand how and why they were chosen.
                    1. Macsen_wledig
                      Macsen_wledig 5 September 2020 20: 46 New
                      0
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      For example, I could not understand how and why they were chosen.

                      And those projects that were the choice was from bad and very bad within the framework of Versailles restrictions.
                      Chose the best of the worst ...
                      1. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 6 September 2020 18: 02 New
                        0
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Chose the best of the worst ...

                        We chose the worst one. Deutschlands, if not twirl, but in size and protection it is a cruiser. A slow-speed cruiser is sheer nonsense!

                        There is a suspicion that in reality they danced from diesel engines. They really wanted to use MAN diesel engines (and perhaps the manufacturer wanted to stimulate this). But the specific power of the diesel engine of that time was much lower than the required one. As a result, they donated performance characteristics.
                      2. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 18: 27 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        We chose the worst one.

                        As for me, all the same from the classic MCT, nedolinkor, monitor and the I / M26 project, the latter is preferable ...

                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        There is a suspicion that in reality they danced from diesel engines.

                        And the project VIII / 30 (which is nedolinkor) also had diesel engines.
                      3. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 21: 26 New
                        0
                        were also diesel.


                        the vast majority of "ship A" variants

                        I / M26


                        definitely the best, but to file a really good pickpocket you need 14,5 kilotons, then I could have managed the third tower and speed plus one knot repeat
                      4. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 21: 41 New
                        0
                        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                        here I would have managed the third tower and speed plus one knot

                        ... and, as one friend of mine says, a button on the tailbone ...;)
                      5. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 21: 42 New
                        0
                        didn't understand sir)
                      6. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 22: 35 New
                        0
                        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                        didn't understand sir)

                        Well ... This is an alternative to the lip-rolling machine. :))))))))
                      7. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 22: 45 New
                        +1
                        Well ... I will tactfully note that "battleship-trimmed" is quite a promising topic, including, instead of conventional heavy cruisers, since in the cut at 15 kilotons "9-203 and 33" knots or "9-283 and 28 knots "It is worth scratching turnips specifically :)
                      8. Macsen_wledig
                        Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 23: 00 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                        that "battleship-trimmed"

                        Everything would be fine ... But the agreements were in force.
                      9. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 6 September 2020 23: 01 New
                        +1
                        Eh ... I'll have time to write an article on althistori;)
  • unknown
    unknown 6 September 2020 08: 19 New
    0
    Just a poorly chosen tactic in a particular battle.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 11: 39 New
      +1
      Quote: ignoto
      Just a poorly chosen tactic in a particular battle.

      Rather, the unsuccessful actions of one particular person - the captain-zur-see Stange.
  • unknown
    unknown 6 September 2020 08: 18 New
    +1
    And what's so stupid about them?
    Armament left no chance even for the most protected cruisers of the Algeria and Zara types.
    In terms of booking mass, the Germans were second only to the Zara type.
    The speed was sufficient for most operations.
    The problems are not in technical characteristics, but in poor tactics of use.
    And this is already a problem with the head ...
    "And the head is a dark object, and cannot be examined ..."
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 6 September 2020 18: 17 New
      0
      Quote: ignoto
      And what's so stupid about them?

      First of all, insufficient speed for a cruiser. Armor even against 6 "shells is insufficient, all 8" will be guaranteed to penetrate. And the lowest speed among cruisers obviously gave the initiative in battle to the enemy. Neither catch up nor escape.
  • Victor Leningradets
    Victor Leningradets 4 September 2020 13: 55 New
    0
    If the Fritzes had a mind, after the signing of the Anglo-German naval agreement of 1935, they would have let the whole trinity be converted into "non-credit" aircraft carriers with an official displacement of less than 10 thousand tons. The towers could be used for two super-heavy cruisers, and the remaining tonnage - for full-fledged battleships.
    1. Andrey Shmelev
      Andrey Shmelev 4 September 2020 17: 33 New
      +1
      uncountable aircraft carriers of 10 kt will not work well (although it's still better than nothing), but it's better to build from scratch
      as raiders against the brites are ineffective, yes, but act as part of a squadron as heavy cruisers can
    2. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 18: 54 New
      +2
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      The towers could be used for two super-heavy cruisers, and the remaining tonnage could be used for full-fledged battleships.

      Have you read the contract?
      1. Victor Leningradets
        Victor Leningradets 7 September 2020 10: 44 New
        +1
        Moreover, I know the course of the negotiations.
        The British proposed to exchange 184 thousand tons of battleships for seven battleships of 26 thousand tons each, but only with 283-mm main caliber. At that time they did not talk about "pickpockets" at all, reading them with battleships for the Baltic.
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 7 September 2020 19: 05 New
          0
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Moreover, I know the course of the negotiations.

          Where can I view the documents?
  • Gunter prereen
    Gunter prereen 4 September 2020 14: 02 New
    0
    Interesting ships in terms of engineering and completely useless in the end. The boats of the 21st project, appeared at the beginning of the war, could decide the outcome of the battle for the Atlantic.
    1. Andrey Shmelev
      Andrey Shmelev 4 September 2020 17: 34 New
      +1
      Project 21 boats, appeared at the beginning of the war


      yeah, it was necessary to immediately burn 400 "Royal Tigers" instead of each :)
  • Romka47
    Romka47 4 September 2020 14: 10 New
    +2
    The auxiliary caliber could not be booked so luxuriously. Eight single-gun mounts were protected only by 10 mm thick tower-like shields. The shields completely covered the crew, but they were very cramped and not very comfortable.

    Unlike the main caliber, the 150-mm artillery ended up in the stepdaughters. Due to the obvious impossibility to provide reasonable protection for 8 single-gun installations, the designers had to limit themselves to 10-mm tower-like shields, although completely closed, but too cramped and inconvenient


    And again 2 paragraphs about the same, but as if copied from different (on the same topic) articles. this has already happened in

    :Combat ships. Cruisers. "K" means "very bad"


    Only one torpedo hit the cruiser, but it was very successful, from the point of view of the British, by turning the stern. The crew moved to the escort ships, and the destroyer "Greif" finished off the cruiser with two torpedoes.

    Only one torpedo hit the target, but the damage was so serious that the crew moved to the destroyers Luchs and Seeadler. The commander left the ship last, after which the destroyer Greif fired two torpedoes at the damaged ship.


    In general, as a landlord, I liked the article.
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 4 September 2020 16: 02 New
    +1
    Quote: Gunter Preen
    Interesting ships in terms of engineering and completely useless in the end. The boats of the 21st project, appeared at the beginning of the war, could decide the outcome of the battle for the Atlantic.

    Not only at the beginning, but also in 1943, with not 21 but small boats of 23 projects, could decide the outcome at sea.
    And in 1939-40 the outcome at sea could be decided even easier. The massive use of mines and more ordinary boats of the 2 and 7 projects could well have been enough against Britain.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 4 September 2020 18: 57 New
      +1
      Quote: Kostadinov
      And in 1939-40 the outcome at sea could be decided even easier. The massive use of mines and more ordinary boats of the 2 and 7 projects could well have been enough against Britain.

      I would now be as smart as my wife later ... (c)
      Especially when you consider that the projects of German submarines appeared somewhat later than the appearance of "pickpockets", so to speak, "in hardware."
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 6 September 2020 19: 48 New
      0
      Quote: Kostadinov
      And in 1939-40 the outcome at sea could be decided even easier. The massive use of mines and more ordinary boats of the 2 and 7 projects could well have been enough against Britain.

      To get more combat-ready boats by 1939, they need to start building in 1936. No, I certainly understand that the British elephant loves to look at the sky - but not to the same extent. smile
      Do you know what will happen next? Having received data on the Reich's reduction of the program for the construction of surface ships (EM and KR) and an increase in the number of submarines being laid (because without canceling the construction of the NK, more submarines cannot be built - the Wehrmacht and backlashes will not allow them to rob their budget, they still need to defeat France), Britain will also adjust its shipbuilding program. Since there will be fewer German EM and KR, then some of the British ships of this class can be exchanged for escort forces.
      And then the German submarines in 1939 will meet not with mobilized trawlers (the basis of the British PLO for short-range approaches in 1939-1941 was precisely the "Tyulkin fleet"), but with specialized "Hunt" and "Flowers". And there will be many of them - for one "seven" is like three "flowers".
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 6 September 2020 20: 47 New
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Do you know what will happen next?

        Nothing will happen... :)
        The contract of 37 states that the clause on "offset" of displacement between classes did not apply to submarines, their tonnage continued to be considered as 45% of the British.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 7 September 2020 10: 30 New
          0
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          The contract of 37 states that the clause on "offset" of displacement between classes did not apply to submarines, their tonnage continued to be considered as 45% of the British.

          I am aware of the provisions of the Submarine Tonnage Agreement. wink
          Even if you consider the situation the Germans scored on the Treaty and began to rivet the PL - it will not end with anything good for them.
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 7 September 2020 19: 06 New
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            I am aware of the provisions of the Submarine Tonnage Agreement.

            Little eh ...;)
  • Comrade
    Comrade 5 September 2020 04: 32 New
    +2
    So "Admiral Graf Spee" during the raids disguised himself as an "Englishman".
    Fake second tube, mock-up of the third main battery turret (click to open).
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 5 September 2020 11: 22 New
      +1
      Quote: Comrade
      So "Admiral Graf Spee" during the raids disguised himself as an "Englishman".

      The B-Dienst worked well: disguising itself as its future adversary. :)
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  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 7 September 2020 14: 42 New
    +1
    made of two layers of steel 80 mm thick each. Towards the bow and stern, the thickness of the lower layer decreased to 18 mm.

    This nonsense "made of two layers of steel"each 80 mm thick" - carried from source to source, without thinking that the layer implies the location one above the other!
    And in the description it will be correct to write - rows, since according to the description there are two rows of reservation plates! Not layers, gentlemen, technically illiterate.
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 7 September 2020 15: 20 New
    +2
    Some naive citizens believe that the purpose of the raider is to drown.
    No - the raider interrupts communications and interrupts combat work
    8 tactical groups, which included 3 aircraft carriers, 2 battleships, 3 battle cruisers, 9 heavy, 5 light

    From this point of view, the heavy cruisers of the Deutschland class are out of competition, more ships were distracted only by the Japanese aircraft carriers (Ozawa's unit was retreating to the north, leading the American fleet of Admiral Halsey) in the battle for the Philippines (Battle in Leyte Gulf).
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  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 8 September 2020 16: 10 New
    0
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    Quote: Kostadinov
    And in 1939-40 the outcome at sea could be decided even easier. The massive use of mines and more ordinary boats of the 2 and 7 projects could well have been enough against Britain.

    I would now be as smart as my wife later ... (c)
    Especially when you consider that the projects of German submarines appeared somewhat later than the appearance of "pickpockets", so to speak, "in hardware."

    1. I do not argue that the mind in hindsight is only a lesson for the future. But Vyi offered more and earlier boats of 21 projects, which is also an alternative history or mind in hindsight.
    2. The design of German boats appeared all the same before the four battleship and the heavy cruiser. At the same time, small boats project 2 were quite suitable for the blockade of England in 1939-40. They could be used primarily for mining approaches to ports along with torpedo boats.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 8 September 2020 16: 19 New
      0
      Quote: Kostadinov
      But Vyi offered more and earlier boats of 21 projects, which is also an alternative history or mind in hindsight.

      Where did I suggest? : 0

      Quote: Kostadinov
      2. The design of German boats appeared all the same before the four battleship and the heavy cruiser.

      Read the Anglo-German treaties of 35 and 37 ...

      Quote: Kostadinov
      At the same time, small boats project 2 were quite suitable for the blockade of England in 1939-40.

      Interesting logic ....
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 8 September 2020 16: 20 New
    0
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Do you know what will happen next? Having received data on the Reich's reduction of the program for the construction of surface ships (EM and KR) and an increase in the number of submarines being laid (because without canceling the construction of the NK, more submarines cannot be built - the Wehrmacht and backlashes will not allow them to rob their budget, they still need to defeat France), Britain will also adjust its shipbuilding program. Since there will be fewer German EM and KR, then some of the British ships of this class can be exchanged for escort forces.
    And then the German submarines in 1939 will meet not with mobilized trawlers (the basis of the British PLO for short-range approaches in 1939-1941 was precisely the "Tyulkin fleet"), but with specialized "Hunt" and "Flowers". And there will be many of them - for one "seven" is like three "flowers".

    The efficiency of the British frigates and corvettes in 1939-40 was such that they could not crush the number of German boats in any way. Moreover, project 2 was quite enough for the blockade of the island. And if they are used for heavy mining with new mines, then the chances of the British are sharply reduced.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 8 September 2020 18: 15 New
      0
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Moreover, project 2 was quite enough for the blockade of the island.

      You would read the memoirs of submariners chtol.
      When they write, for example, that the "deuce" in the Channel did not always shove it up against the current ... :)
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