“It was a great moment for the Polish army”: Polish President on the start of World War II and the defense of Westerplatte

In Poland, events are held to commemorate the beginning of the Second World War. In 81 years, Hitler's Germany attacked Poland, which is considered to be the beginning of WWII, although before that Germany, together with Poland in 1938, brought troops to Czechoslovakia, occupying its territory.

Representatives of the top leadership of Poland took part in the action, which is dedicated to the first hostilities of the Second World War, including the attack from the German battleship "Schleswig-Holstein" on Westerplatte (in the area of ​​Danzig, which is now called Gdansk).

We are talking about the peninsula, where the Polish garrison of the military transshipment warehouse tried to hold the defense against the German army. The defense lasted about a week, and the result was the surrender of the Polish garrison. Hitler's troops suffered losses, approximately 4 times the losses of the Polish side.

Polish President Andrzej Duda:

Continuity is important to us. Today it is expressed in the heroism of the soldiers who defended Poland at Westerplatte. It was a great moment for the Polish army. He entered not only our history, but also world military history.

Sejm Marshal Elжbieta Witek, Sejm Marshal Tomasz Grodzki, Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki and Polish Defense Minister Mariusz Blaszczak also took part in commemorative events that started at the hour of the first German attack on Poland - at about 4:30 local time.

Polish Minister of Defense:

We meet at an iconic place. For many years it was actually abandoned. But today we are restoring it and all its significance.

Wielka chwila podczas dzisiejszej uroczystości. President RP @AndrzejDuda przekazał noty identyfikacyjne rodzinom obrońców Westerplatte, których szczątki zostały odnalezione w tym miejscu po 80 latach. Ich nazwiska zostały przywołane w Apelu Pamięci.
Chwala Bohaterom! pic.twitter.com/sbr6jLupLi

- Kancelaria Prezydenta (@prezydentpl) September 1, 2020

Comments

[Labrador]

It was a great moment for the Polish army.

Was. But in the end, you screwed him up by placing your troops on the eastern border.

[Finches]

Even with my dislike of the gentry, I pay tribute to their courage - they rushed at the German tanks with sabers, but also because the Germans got them in 40 days for almost XNUMX days I feel deep moral satisfaction ... Truly, the "great moment" of Polish history!

[Insurgent]

We are talking about the peninsula, where the Polish garrison of the military transshipment warehouse tried to hold the defense against the German army. The defense lasted about a week, and the result was the surrender of the Polish garrison. Hitler's troops suffered losses, approximately 4 times the losses of the Polish side.

An approximate "tabular" ratio of the losses of the attackers and the defenders with a competent organization of defense and the availability of forces and means for it.

Nevertheless, the phrase "Surrender" sounds ... the Brest Fortress did not capitulate .

[RUnnm]

And the question is to what extent the data of the Polish side correlate with the data of the Germans.

[Insurgent]

Quote: RUnnm

And the question is to what extent the data of the Polish side correlate with the data of the Germans.

I will not poke at the wound of the Poles, looking for accurate archival data, because it’s clear anyway ...

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: RUnnm

And the question is to what extent the data of the Polish side correlate with the data of the Germans.

Norms are correlated. The Poles at Westerplatte did indeed fight in an exemplary manner, although they eventually capitulated. Not Stalingrad, of course, where our units stood until the last soldier, but ... all the same - very good and deserves memory

[The leader of the Redskins]

Considering that in addition to attacks from the land front, there were also air raids and shelling from the battleship. Then you need to pay tribute.

[Vladimir Mashkov]

This is normal: every country is looking for episodes to be proud of. And Westerplatte is one of the few bright spots in the history of Poland during World War II, albeit with a tragic end. It is bad that they are erasing a much larger and more significant participation in the war, shoulder to shoulder with the Red Army!

[Esoteric]

Poles are Slavs. The fact that Muscovy Russia won in a centuries-old dispute left an imprint on our relations. But it could have been different.
By the way, ordinary Poles, those who are not in power, treat Russians well, although it would seem. Here is dislike for Ukrainians, to put it mildly.

[Insurgent]

Quote: Ezoterik

dislike for Ukrainians, to put it mildly

Historically, for a noble Pole, Ukrainians are first of all slaves and schismatics of other faiths, who in different periods raised riots and uprisings against the Polish clergy, and then, as a result, also crossed over under the strong hand of the Tsar of Moscow ...
And the "Volyn massacre", which was perpetrated by Ukrainian nationalists in the territories occupied by the Germans (!!!), has not been forgotten by the Poles.

[Pavel73]

The Ukrainians themselves were invented by the Poles.

[chenia]

Quote: Pavel73

The Ukrainians themselves were invented by the Poles.

No, the Austrians as opposed to the Poles and Russians, of course.

[Pavel73]

Poles, at the beginning of the 19th century. Austrian women only took advantage of this idea at the beginning of the 20th century, and paid well.

[Pilat2009]

Quote: Finches

Even with my dislike of the gentry, I pay tribute to their courage - they rushed at the German tanks with sabers, but also because the Germans got them in 40 days for almost XNUMX days I feel deep moral satisfaction ... Truly, the "great moment" of Polish history!

Poland did not have territory for retreat and regrouping, like France, and neither did manpower. In the same 40 days, the Germans occupied comparable territory of the USSR

[Finches]

No need to advocate - there is a historical fact, and a fact is a stubborn thing!

[Pilat2009]

Quote: Finches

No need to advocate - there is a historical fact, and a fact is a stubborn thing!

The fact is that the Germans reached Moscow and Stalingrad, and this is the territory of France and Poland combined. Where were Poland and France to evacuate the factories?

[Finches]

And I will not argue with this fact, but your position is not clear or understandable to me, but then, excuse me, I did not respect it and am not going to respect it!

[Pilat2009]

Quote: Finches

And I will not argue with this fact, but your position is not clear or understandable to me, but then, excuse me, I did not respect it and am not going to respect it!

My position is that Germany had the most modern and mobile army in Europe, plus effective management and planning. France and Poland were unable to resist it, just like the USSR at the initial stage of the war. The USSR was saved by a huge territory and large mobilization reserves.

[Rakovor]

I wrote already here, but especially for people like you I will repeat - the Germans in 1939 and the Germans in 1941 are two completely different armies. You can draw conclusions yourself, if, of course, you have something to do.))

[Mikhail Alexandrov]

And they were trying to "evacuate" something ??? Polcha, lasted 40 days, the rest of the Europa fell under the German, some in 2 days, some in three ...

[Pilat2009]

Quote: Mikhail Alexandrov

who in 2 days who in three ...

France month. again the question is where to evacuate something to Poland? something from the fleet went to England
The rest of Europe essentially did not have an army. Some rulers were Hitler's allies - Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, so the rest of Europe says it loudly

[16329]

The territory is smaller, the density of troops is greater, they managed to start mobilization, the Wehrmacht of 1939 is quite comparable with the Polish army of the same time, as a result, the defeat of Poland in fact in 2 weeks, despite the fact that the Germans did not manage to encircle the Polish armies one by one, still a complete loss of control and collapse
The fall 1939 company is completely incomparable with the 1941 summer company

[Pilat2009]

Quote: 16329

the Wehrmacht of 1939 is quite comparable with the Polish army of the same time

You will compare the number of tanks and planes to begin with, and then add the Soviet troops that entered from the other side

[Petrik66]

It has long been clear that no uhlans with sabers rushed to Guderian's tanks, this is a bike launched by the Germans to show which Poles are insignificant, and then picked up by the Poles themselves to prove their own heroism. The Polish cavalry, in accordance with the rules for the use of cavalry, defeated the German rear column .:
The 18th Uhlan regiment clashed with a detachment of German infantry on the plain near Tucholsky Bor and the intersection on the Chojnice-Runovo railway. Colonel Kazimir Mastalezh ordered the commander of the 1st squadron Yevgeny Svestiak at 19:00 to prepare an ambush and attack the German forces with two squadrons (250 people). Two more squadrons and an armored detachment of TKS and TK-3 tankettes remained in reserve.
The attack was initially successful as the Germans dispersed and the Poles occupied the plain. However, armored vehicles from the 20th reconnaissance detachment Sd.Kfz.222 and Sd.Kfz.231 came to the aid of the Germans. Machine-gun fire forced the Poles to hastily retreat to the nearest hill. [4] During the retreat, both Svishchak and Mastalezh were killed, and in total the Poles lost about a third of their personnel. However, this slowed down the advance of the Germans and helped the Poles to send forces from the 1st Infantry Battalion and the Czersk Battalion to Chojnica.
"Westerlyatė" for them is at least some kind of bright spot in the general beating of the Polish army. Hence the attention:
...... the losses of the Westerplatte defenders amounted to 16 people killed (including Kazimierz Rasinski) and 50 wounded. The Germans, on the other hand, lost about 400 soldiers killed and wounded (and the killed made up about half). Of the 182 defenders of Westerplatte, 158 survived to the end of the war.

On the other hand, during the assault on the Brest Fortress in 1939, the total losses of the 45th German Infantry Division, according to German data, amounted to 30 killed, including 1941 officers, and more than 482 wounded on June 48, 1000. The Poles killed about 1000 people, 8 officers and 1380 soldiers were taken prisoner.
But the Brest Fortress is located in Belarus, and they don't remember much about it.

When the Germans stormed the Brest Fortress in 1941, the German troops in the fortress captured 101 officers, 7122 junior commanders and soldiers [16]), about 2 thousand Soviet soldiers died in the fortress [12].
The total losses of the Germans (wounded, killed, missing) in the Brest Fortress amounted to 1197 people, of which 87 were Wehrmacht officers

[Rakovor]

That is, you are comparing the carefully prepared defense of the fortress by the Poles (the war has been going on for several weeks) with the sudden blow of the Germans on June 22, which caught us by surprise and actually decapitated the defense of the fortress? Are you comparing the numbers of losses, prisoners of war, etc.? Yes, there is no limit to human stupidity.))

[Petrik66]

Dear friend, you and I did not drink at brotherhood, and rudeness does not adorn anyone. Everyone is looking for what they want to find. I haven't compared anything. these are just numbers, and their interpretation is everyone's business.

[kombat1976]

"... but also because the Germans got them in 40 days, I feel deep moral satisfaction ..."
"Darling, started well, finished unworthily." I am a Siberian, if anything, by all kinds - Russian, both grandfathers fought for the Motherland. I know that there are "Russians" who were superior to the German fascists in brutality and cruelty. But there are also those Russians to whom monuments in different parts of the world are obliged to stand.
Why am I? There are Poles, the same Russians, who are honored and honored for many centuries. And there is also a villain who is a shame.
When you write about the Poles, specify who exactly.

[Finches]

I don’t owe anything to anyone - especially to clarify something there! That's what I mean!

[cost]

Eugene

Zyablitsev (Eugene): Even with my dislike of the gentry, I pay tribute to their courage - they rushed at German tanks with checkers,

This is more of a replicated Polish post-war fake stereotype.
And the real German and Polish memoirs of the participants in that war report on the so-called "höllische polnische Ulan-pikiner" - "infernal Polish lancers" rushing at German tanks with pikes with explosives .. I agree with you - this required a lot of courage and self-sacrifice
Fig. Polish anti-tank pike

[Finches]

Thank you I know about this, I just simplified my phrase to form!

[cost]

And minus what you are for? It's just a fad with these negative

[Insurgent]

Quote: Rich

fig. Polish anti-tank pike

Wow ... I did not know that the Poles in 1939 had something similar to the Japanese cumulatives used later in the defense of the Pacific islands ...

[APASUS]

Quote: Finches

Even with my dislike of the gentry, I pay tribute to their courage - they rushed at German tanks with checkers,

It didn’t particularly rush and it turns out, the country had human resources, the population of Poland on December 31, 1938 was 34 hours.

[snake]

Quote: APASUS

Under such pictures you need to write - what was the cost of all this. Otherwise, immature minds will have the impression that war is some kind of newfangled "challenge", like hold out on one leg for five minutes ...
And as usual, there were some mistakes: in Germany... It's good that the Order of the Patriotic War is in the background, not the Iron Cross. Nonesh creatives will become.

[Alikjan]

Moreover, a mistake, not a spelling one - the USSR is not against Germany, but against almost all of Europe ...

[The leader of the Redskins]

But what about Great Britain? She lasted the longest.

[hagen]

Quote: Finches

Even with my dislike of the gentry, I pay tribute to their courage - they rushed at German tanks with checkers

As not my most revered character W. Churchill said: "The bravest of the brave too often were led by the vilest of the vile ones! And yet there have always been two Poland: one of them fought for the truth, and the other grovelled in meanness." It can be clearly stated that today the “others” are in power in Poland ...

[Fitter65]

Quote: Finches

Even with my dislike of the gentry, I pay tribute to their courage - they rushed at German tanks with checkers,

This moment was just a fact of surprise for both parties. Both for the German tankers who jumped out at the Polish cavalrymen, and for the Poles themselves who unexpectedly jumped out with sabers at the tanks ... It's just that the Germans, as the winners of that period, described this episode in a favorable light for themselves ...

[Victor Tsenin]

No one rushed to tanks with a saber, not even the hyena of Europe)

According to the article
> from the German battleship Schleswig-Holstein
The battleship did.

[Insurgent]

Quote: Labrador

Was. But in the end, you screwed him up by placing your troops on the eastern border.

well, like this ... According to the plans of the Polish General Staff, from defense, the Polish Armed Forces were to launch a counteroffensive, crush the Wehrmacht, and enter Berlin ...

[forest1]

A total of 6800 soldiers surrendered. But they did not capitulate

[Insurgent]

Quote: forest1

A total of 6800 soldiers surrendered. But they did not capitulate

Are you talking about Brest? Captured and surrendered, is there any difference for you, at least some?
====================================================================== =============
If you take on faith the information from Wiki, then the garrison of the island was:

Westerplatte garrison composition

5 officers
3 cornet
14 regular military sergeants
27 non-commissioned officers of the conscript service
7 super-conscripts - military sergeants
1 extra-conscript - a seaman petty officer
2 regular seamen petty officers
17 senior legionnaires and marksmen
102 legionnaires and marksman
7 civilian officials
18 civilian employees
1 head of the railway PGZhD stations
In total - 205 people (700 people were expected to be reinforced).

Garrison Commander - Major Henrik Sukharsky

During the fighting, 15 people died. One was killed by the Germans after the surrender of the garrison. Another 8 people who defended Westerplatte did not live to see the end of the war.

Photo.
General Friedrich Eberhardt accepts capitulation from Major Henrik Sucharsky

[forest1]

Naturally about Brest. In the context of your phrase, he did not capitulate as it were.

[Insurgent]

Quote: forest1

Naturally about Brest. In the context of your phrase, he did not capitulate as it were.

And you, in fact, like WHO, what do you say so?

[forest1]

The difference is very rare. Capturing so many soldiers without their will will not work. By and large, only one who has lost consciousness can be captured against the will. With failed hands. Or suddenly immobilized

[Pilat2009]

Quote: forest1

The difference is very rare. Capturing so many soldiers without their will will not work. By and large, only one who has lost consciousness can be captured against the will. With failed hands. Or suddenly immobilized

That is, 5 million Soviet prisoners were captured exclusively in an unconscious state?

[Sergey Medvedev]

Quote: Pilat2009

That is, 5 million Soviet prisoners were captured exclusively in an unconscious state?

There were no 5 million Soviet prisoners of war.
German troops raked millions of civilian men into "prisoners". For example Vyazemsky boiler. Four of our armies were surrounded there. This is about 4 people (maximum). And the Germans drove 320 prisoners from that boiler. These are the numbers for thought.

[snake]

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

There were no 5 million Soviet prisoners of war.

Blessed are those who believe ... But, unfortunately, there were ...
https://topwar.ru/7922-voennoplennye-vtoroy-mirovoy-voyny.html

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

For example Vyazemsky boiler. Four of our armies were surrounded there. This is about 4 people (maximum). And the Germans drove 320 prisoners from that boiler.

You've misinterpreted the facts. The Germans captured more than 600 thousand people. in general in the Vyazemskaya operation. From at least two boilers - near Bryansk and near Yelnya.

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

German troops raked millions of civilian men into "prisoners".

12 divisions of the people's militia took part in the Vyazemsk operation. Not personnel officers, but not "civilian men" either.

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

These are the numbers for thought.

It would be nice for you to think it over before you flog the gag about historical events.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: serpent

12 divisions of the people's militia took part in the Vyazemsk operation. Not personnel officers, but not "civilian men" either.

Isaev said that by the beginning of the operation the Moscow DNO had already been reorganized and replenished with conscripts for the states of the Red Army. "Civilian" fighters are LANO, that's where almost 100% of yesterday's workers and employees really went into battle.

Here are the Leningrad militias, they quickly went into battle. And the Moscow ones - usually with a delay of a month and a half, having already been reorganized into ordinary rifle divisions, including, there, not only the command staff, because the command staff of the militia was originally from the regular military, but also replenishing, yes, the staff with ordinary conscripts.

As for the German figures for prisoners of war, there really is one subtle point: not only people in uniform, but also civilians of draft age could become prisoners of war.

When occupying individual settlements, it is necessary to immediately and suddenly capture existing men between the ages of 15 and 65, if they can be ranked as capable of carrying weapons

The most famous example of such statistics is the Kiev cauldron, in which the Germans reported 665 thousand prisoners. Given that the payroll of the South-Western Division at the beginning of the operation was 627 thousand people, of which 150 thousand people remained outside the boiler, and another 30 thousand people left the boiler.

[snake]

Quote: Alexey RA

Given that the payroll of the South-Western Division at the beginning of the operation was 627 thousand people, of which 150 thousand people remained outside the boiler, and another 30 thousand people left the boiler.

At the beginning of the operation, there were 627000 people, but during the operation, an additional 28 divisions and 4 brigades were involved.
In principle, of course, the Germans attributed the number of prisoners. This is a well-known thing in war. But you should not go to extremes either. Otherwise, we can agree that there were no prisoners from the Soviet side at all. Thus, to forget and betray the memory of those who died in captivity.

[Sergey Medvedev]

Quote: serpent

12 divisions of the people's militia took part in the Vyazemsk operation.

Previously, it was known about 10 militia divisions in the Vyazemsky cauldron. But the further into the forest, the thicker the militias. ) In a couple of years you will write that there were 22 of these divisions!
And how many there were does not play a big role, since they acted as part of the aforementioned 4 armies, which means they are part of their number. So there is no need to whitewash Hitler, who raked civilian men into the camps. This belongs to the category of crimes against civilians.
When the Dr. Goebbels Prize is established here, at VO, I will nominate you for it.

[snake]

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

It used to be known

Before or before?

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

In a couple of years you will write that there were 22 of these divisions!

I don’t know what I’ll write in a couple of years, but you already write about millions of "civilian men" as prisoners of war.

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

So there is no need to whitewash Hitler, who raked civilian men into the camps.

I am not whitewashing Hitler. But specifically for the Vyazemskaya operation, you are manipulating data. More than 600 thousand prisoners were in the entire operation, in several boilers, and 12 armies took part in these battles.

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

When the Dr. Goebbels Prize is established here, at VO, I will nominate you for it.

The jury will nominate, but you will be the nominees. In the forefront.

[Sergey Medvedev]

Quote: serpent

The jury will nominate

The jury will decide on the nominees, including you. I am not applying for a place in the jury.
But the fact that you are drowning for Hitler is obvious.
3,8 million people are missing in RRKA. 5,75 million people passed through the German POW camps. And here you are engaged in fraud. So of these 3,8 million, a lot of people died in battles and could not be captured. So you unconditionally deserve your nomination for the Dr. Goebbels Prize.

[snake]

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

You are drowning for Hitler, this is obvious.

Obviously, after I caught you in a lie, you didn’t invent anything smarter than to enroll me in the Hitlerites.

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

In RRCA

What kind of RRKA? RKKA, perhaps a "historian"? Go get some history, homebrew revisionist.
There are official sources, and there is your chatter ...

[Sergey Medvedev]

Did you get to the bottom of a typo? The RKKA is correct. No other arguments? Still need to poke? Homebrew upbringing is not very good for you. It is understandable why the Nazis have a decent upbringing?

[snake]

How could you be mistaken in such an abbreviation? You are either illiterate or inattentive. That is why you use numbers so freely - a million there, a million here. I heard a ringing, but you don't know where he is.

[Sergey Medvedev]

Already corrected. No other arguments? Do you work as a proofreader? Are typos hurting your eyes? Or don't you understand anything in numbers? It happens. There are physicists, there are lyrics. For lyricists, numbers are a very difficult area. Hard to reach.

[snake]

You write that there were 4 armies surrounded, and of them, they say, the Germans took 600 thousand prisoners.
But there were 12 armies. There were several cauldrons. And, theoretically, there was where to recruit so many prisoners.
And about 5 million prisoners also take place. According to the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, the loss of prisoners amounted to 4 million 559 thousand people. According to the General Staff, dare you? Not according to some murky Medvedev ...
For comparison: In the First World War, according to various estimates of Russian soldiers in captivity there were from 2 to 417 people. But the boilers and PMA operations were still less large-scale.
So stop doing disinformation, "historian" ...

[Sergey Medvedev]

Quote: serpent

According to the General Staff

Even according to these figures, less than 5 million. But you don't dare.
In addition, these 4,559 million are not prisoners, but missing, that is, together with the dead. Here you twist.
And where did this figure come from, I know. Reliable data - 3,8 million missing. But then, muddy snakes (liberals from history) pushed another 0,5 million people into this category.
And the figure came from the Germans. They understood that they were committing a crime by driving civilians into POW camps, and they came up with an excuse that 500 people were conscripts whom they intercepted on their way to the Red Army. That is, we took up positions in the rear of our troops, between the troops and the military registration and enlistment offices, and there they picked up 000 million conscripts. The excuse is completely rotten, so these people did not conduct an armed struggle, they did not wear uniforms, they did not take the oath, they did not see weapons, they did not even reach the units! But the murky snakes (the same as those who recognized the responsibility of the USSR for the Katyn execution) included these people in the "prisoners of war". The remaining 0,5 people are partisans and NKVD officers. Yes, they fought, but not in the army. And in the Red Army 259 million people were missing. This figure includes those killed, captured and deserted.

[snake]

Have you already figured out the Vyazemskaya operation? Finished crowing about only 4 armies?

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

In addition, these 4,559 million are not prisoners

Domestic historians estimate the number captives of the Red Army in 4,6 million people, of whom 2,9 million died

The situation of prisoners of war was especially desperate in the first year of the war, when more than half of their total number (2,8 million people) was captured.

https://topwar.ru/11444-poteri-sssr-i-germanii-v-vov.html
Dreamer, do you at least tell me where you get your information from? Mr. sovramshi.
You are doing a very nasty business. The sacrifice of these people, the soldiers who were captured and many died there, will not be in vain only if we remember this and try to prevent this from happening in the future. But you simply delete them from history, as if they did not exist, thereby devaluing their suffering.
What are you talking about here about the Germans who "understood that they were committing a crime"? Words worthy of Koli-iz-Urengoy. And I still have the audacity to write that I whitewash Hitler.

[Sergey Medvedev]

I read this article. There are a lot of controversial and obvious lies. For example, the phrase "military uniforms were worn by 34,5 million people." The lie is that honey, shit, sand and bees are piled in one heap. But in fact, 27 million were drafted into the Red Army, 3 million for the NKVD, and 5 million for the Labor Army, in total 35 million (rounded up). And the author leaves a loophole for himself, because he does not write that 34,5 million people are drafted into the Red Army.
Another trick of the liars of the grant is to impersonate "their own", while lying is godless: "We feel sorry for our soldiers, but the truth is dearer - Stalin is guilty of the death of 100500 mile of our fellow citizens." I don’t know if you are a grant-eater, or you have heard enough of grant-eaters, like KoliasUrengoy, but you are sweeping the grant-eater blizzard here. And judging by the bydlyachy manner of communication, the first is more likely than the second.

Quote: serpent

Have you already figured out the Vyazemskaya operation?

I figured it out. There were 4 armies in the Vyazemsky cauldron, including 10 militia divisions, a total of about 320 thousand people. Of these, a large group went on a breakthrough to their own (with Stalin's permission) and 100 thousand people reached their own. Smaller groups broke through in other directions and, according to modern estimates, 20 people were able to escape. They went to partisan in the woods. Of the 000 people remaining in the cauldron, a lot of people died both in defense and in breakthroughs. How many of them could have been captured? Well, 200 thousand, or 000 maximum. Further, under the pretext of looking for the encircled people, the Germans grabbed another 100-150 thousand civilian men and drove them to Germany. You need to understand the motivation of the Germans. They drove all their men into the army. Removed from the economy, it was necessary to replenish labor resources. So they rowed everyone and not only in this cauldron.
If you think that among the 700 thousand prisoners (600 according to your version) are prisoners of war from other boilers, give specific facts. What kind of boiler? How many troops were killed, escaped, surrendered. You hardly give numbers. You only spew insults. Many do this due to a lack of arguments, knowledge and intelligence.
Information about the 12 destroyed armies is also very dubious. These are 2 full-blooded fronts, about a million servicemen. If there was such a hole in our defense, we would definitely lose the war right away in 41st.
And stop being rude already. If you feel like vomiting anything dirty, you better gag your mouth with your tail. All snakes do that.

[snake]

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

But actually drafted into the Red Army

Once again I will ask, if the first time does not reach: Where are you sucking your data from? "Actually"...
The author shoveled about 30 sources, and then someone climbs out and writes: "in fact, it was not so."
I do not like the author of this article, I can cite Isaev. Isaev will do, or does he also know nothing, unlike a specialist in mixing "honey, shit, sand and bees in one heap"?

In any case, the question arises about such a huge number of prisoners, which causes all sorts of speculations about "unwillingness to fight", "second civilian" and so on. In fact, the problem lay in a qualitative leap in the development of weapons of warfare, in the emergence of large mechanized formations unthinkable for the First World War, numbering 150-200 thousand people, capable of quickly breaking through to great depths and surrounding several armies at once.

https://www.arms-expo.ru/analytics/voenno-patrioticheskoe-vospitanie/aleksey-isaev-skolko-ikh-bylo/

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

There were 4 armies in the Vyazemsky cauldron, including 10 militia divisions, a total of about 320 thousand people.

Specifically, there were about 320 thousand in the Vyazemsky cauldron, but the declared losses of 600 thousand prisoners are related in general to the Vyazemsk operation, in which 12 armies with a total strength of about 1.25 million appeared on the Soviet side.

In the northern part of the Moscow direction, in the first week of fighting, a Vyazma cauldron was formed, which included 37 divisions and 9 brigades (a pair of brigades is equivalent to one division). In the south, Guderian's units created a Bryansk cauldron - for 27 divisions and 2 brigades. A total of 95 Soviet divisions and 14 brigades were surrounded by 64 divisions and 11 brigades, that is, 70 percent of all units.

https://life.ru/p/909446

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

Information about the 12 destroyed armies is also very dubious.

Yes, you still doubt that it does not coincide with your delusional point of view.
Regarding civilians recorded as prisoners of war ... There were such cases, Isaev writes about this. He also writes about military builders who did not have weapons. But, firstly: there were not your "millions" of them, and secondly: in the Vyazemsk operation there was a sufficient number of specifically military personnel for capture.

[Sergey Medvedev]

In all your hissing there is very little specificity and a lot of saliva splashes. What specific numbers from those given by me do you think are wrong? And you yourself do not state any specifics. Direct the shadow to the fence.

Quote: serpent

12 armies with a total strength of about 1.25 million people.

Well, how many of them are prisoners, dead, alive? We are discussing the prisoners.
As for historians, there is such a historian Boris Sokolov, who raved about 30 million dead Red Army soldiers. Of the 27 million called up. He also shoveled a lot of material. I just did a lot of shit. Ph.D., badge-fly. Maybe already a doctor. Therefore, I am critical of all historians. And Isaev did not prove anything to me, because I myself am able to count, although I am not a historian.
We can count together. There were 27 million soldiers of the Red Army, if you or Isaev do not agree with this, write your figure, we will discuss it. Better to discuss numbers than to be rude. And you prefer to suck the tail, obviously not snake. And I already pointed out to you, better gnaw a snake's tail.

Quote: serpent

Where are you sucking your data from?

If you prove your case to me with numbers, then I will admit it. And there is no evidence, there is only a splash of saliva.

[snake]

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

What specific numbers from those given by me do you think are wrong?

What kind of Pinocchio are you !? Where did the discussion begin? Since you attributed the number of prisoners for the entire operation to only one cauldron, where 4 armies ended up:

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

For example Vyazemsky boiler. Four of our armies were surrounded there. This is about 4 people (maximum). And the Germans drove 320 prisoners from that boiler.

And I corrected you that 600 thousand (and you even increased the number of prisoners to 700 thousand so that the stuffing was fatter.) These are prisoners not from one boiler, but from several: including Vyazemsky and Bryansk.

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

Well, how many of them are prisoners, dead, alive? We are discussing the prisoners.

Are you really so alternatively gifted or are you pretending? The prisoners - about 600 thousand - I have already written this many times.
Total losses according to official sources:
380 thousand dead and wounded. More than 600 thousand prisoners.

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

And Isaev did not prove anything to me, because I myself am able to count, although I am not a historian.

Will you finally tell me where you get your numbers from, unhistoricist? I very much doubt that you have turned over the archival documents.

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

If you prove your case to me with numbers, then I will admit it. And there is no evidence, there is only a splash of saliva.

I've already given you the numbers. With links. But you, the demagogue, are all God's dew. You can't prove your nonsense. You sit, croak only: - prove, prove.
Come on for a change, throw off the link that 600, or how you breach 700 thousand prisoners - this is only specifically from 4 armies, specifically in the Vyazemsky cauldron the Germans recruited. Then let's continue the conversation. And so you can always twist your ass, and bleat on all my links and numbers, which, they say, is not proof.

[Sergey Medvedev]

Quote: serpent

these are prisoners not from one cauldron, but from several: including Vyazemsky and Bryansk.

Here you named only 2 boilers, and not several. And we have been writing about Vyazyamskoye for a long time. So which of us is alternatively gifted? Can you count only up to 2?
Okay, at least named the boiler. We will look for Bryansk.
What you bleed here, I will open your eyes immediately. Comparison.
By the Stalingrad cauldron, Europe, led by Hitlerite Germany, was broken. On the knee.
Compare the numbers. There are 330 thousand people in the Stalingrad cauldron, of which 220 thousand were taken prisoner. Our losses in the Vyazemsky and Bryansk boilers (according to your version) are 980 thousand, of which 600 thousand are prisoners. At the same time, under the control of Hitler, territories with a population of 450 million people, the unoccupied territories of the USSR, 150 million.
And now the USSR, having suffered losses in the Vyazemsky and Bryansk boilers 3 times more than the Germans in Stalingrad, having 3 times LESS people than Hitler, managed not to lose the war. A weak and stunted Europe was immediately blown away.
Although in vain, probably, I'm here to sword.
Snakes are animals that, on the evolutionary ladder, occupy a position between fish and birds (below birds). That is, the brains (in muddy snakes) are less than that of chickens. True, more than fish. I never deny facts.

[snake]

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

Here you named only 2 boilers, and not several.

Bryansk, Elninsky and Vyazemsky.

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

What have you put on here,

How secondary you are! As an ass behind me you repeat epithets and metaphors addressed to you. I laugh at you.
There is no need to compare the opu with a finger. You take out this very finger (it prevents you from thinking) and concentrate on the topic of the Vyazemskaya operation. Stalingrad is a different battle with other units and armies, with different experience and commanders. Arrows, in short, do not translate, weird.
All the time you get carried away from the topic. I know such bugs. Only by constant kicks can they be kept on the right track.

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

Although in vain, probably, I'm here to sword.

You are throwing dung here, but not beads. Not a single one has been sent from you - just the sucked ones, don't understand where the numbers you are citing without proof.

[Sergey Medvedev]

I understood where you got your nonsense. On Wikipedia.
From there your numbers.
I quote from Wiki:
Losses
According to German data, the loss of only prisoners in two "cauldrons" near Bryansk and Yelnya amounted to more than 600 thousand people [3]. About 688 thousand Soviet soldiers and commanders were taken prisoner, only about 85 thousand people managed to escape from the encirclement [4].

Killed and dead from wounds - 200-275 thousand people;
sanitary losses - 120-150 thousand people;
captured and missing - 450-500 thousand people [5].
The total losses of the Western, Reserve fronts, field construction of the Western Directorate of the GUBOPR and other civilian commissariats - 770-925 thousand people [5].
They have three different versions in several lines about the number of prisoners of war: 600 thousand, 688 thousand and 450-500 thousand. You can already laugh. Moreover, the data is only from the German side, without our data. So you can't believe.

[snake]

Give our data. Only with links. Not as usual. Cite from Wikipedia, Khrenopedia, Medvedopedia - at least from somewhere, some link. Not just your "research and calculation".

[Sergey Medvedev]

Will it go from Serperdenia?

[snake]

Rest in general, bell ringer. Maybe next time you will think and read before you write.

[Sergey Medvedev]

Yes, I also thought, why should I poke around in this Serperdenia? You are more familiar and more convenient. You are narrow and slippery and dodgy. Get busy.

[snake]

An attempt is not torture ... Still, non-historian, will you open the source of your information? Are you ashamed or what? Or did you just burst out with numbers, and decided to brush it off on balabolism?

[Sergey Medvedev]

Searching for links is a long history (serious links, not just anything). When I take up a topic, I hang out on the Internet for several days. And I know the big picture.
27 million - drafted into the Red Army
11,3 million - are in the ranks at the end of the war
1 million - on treatment
4 million - disabled
6,3 million - died (about which everything is known)
3,8 million - missing
0,5 million - convicted and sent to camps without the right to a penal battalion. Executed including.
0,1 million - others, mostly transferred to different ministries and departments.
Therefore, anyone who sweeps a blizzard about 5 million prisoners, you is Isaev or someone else, let him first justify his delirium. Goebbels.
If there are 5 million prisoners, then, taking into account the dead and deserters, how many are missing in total? 10 million? Isaev might say so. Although he is not as frostbitten as Sokolov, but still dubious.
Only the USSR was not rubber (for people). The figures are well-known and quite finite. I've found and counted.
If you (and Isaev) say that there are 5 million prisoners, then say how many are missing in total. And how do you imagine the overall picture of losses and survivors. I'm hammering your heads into it. And Isaev too.

[snake]

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

27 million - drafted into the Red Army
11,3 million - are in the ranks at the end of the war
1 million - on treatment
4 million - disabled
6,3 million - died (about which everything is known)
3,8 million - missing
0,5 million - convicted and sent to camps without the right to a penal battalion. Executed including.
0,1 million - others, mostly transferred to different ministries and departments.

Where are these numbers from? You are not a historian, you are not included in the state archives, Wikipedia is not a source for you (who are you yourself?), Isaev is not an authority. It still hasn't come to light that you are empty-headed?
The prisoners can be argued endlessly. The missing can be counted as both the dead and the prisoners. There are such admissions that mom do not grieve. But certainly not your "millions of civilians", as I already wrote.
Regarding the Vyazemskaya operation, do you agree that it burst? I agree that I took a separate boiler, and attributed the losses from the whole operation?

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

I'm hammering your heads into it.

Fifth, his mother, once I ask: where do you get your data, dilettante?

[snake]

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

They have three different versions in several lines about the number of prisoners of war: 600 thousand, 688 thousand and 450-500 thousand. You can already laugh.

Laugh, laugh ... In that difficult time, it was not possible to accurately record the losses, so each source gives its own figure. Hence the difference in the number of losses.

[Sergey Medvedev]

Quote: serpent

Laugh, laugh ... In that difficult time, it was not possible to accurately record the losses, so each source gives its own figure. Hence the difference in the number of losses.

Hahahaa. The sources are all German. Very precise, neat and pedantic.

[snake]

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

Hahahaa. The sources are all German. Very precise, neat and pedantic

No others. Or is there? Provide.

[Sergey Medvedev]

Quote: serpent

No others. Or is there? Provide.

Such a scatter of numbers on the German side is already reason not to trust them. And very clearly characterizes the concept of "Goebbels propaganda". And you perceive it as the ultimate truth. I do not need to impose it. I have already shown you 2 times the rottenness of your sources.
I drew you a general picture of the losses of the Red Army. Are there any substantive questions? Have not seen. Because you do not have your own idea. Here you are and hang noodles on your ears. Dosed. In one place they will lie about 5 million prisoners, in another about 18-20-30 million killed (there are many versions), about the innumerable millions of disabled people who have flooded all trains, about wild millions of penalty boxes, about hordes of detachments (three cops over each and 2 knocking), etc. And if you add up all these nonsense, it turns out that Hitler killed the entire USSR and half of China.

[snake]

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

And you perceive it as the ultimate truth.

No, I take any information with skepticism. Therefore, I decided to oholon you too.

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

I have already shown you the rottenness of your sources 2 times.

How did you show it? In your own words? They cost me nothing. You, in the sense of historical data, are nobody, and there is no way to call you. Is it really not clear that your words are just your words - what is less than dust in the wind?

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

I drew you a general picture of the losses of the Red Army.

Your drawings are purple to me. Who are you, in terms of the history of the Second World War? I still haven't seen a single link from you.

Quote: Sergey Medvedev

In one place they will lie about 5 million prisoners, in another about 18-20-30 million killed (there are many versions)

You bring your "correct" version. How "really" it was. And don't forget to add a link.

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

in another, about 18-20-30 million killed (there are many versions), about the innumerable millions of disabled people who flooded all trains, about the wild millions of penalties, about hordes of detachments (three cops over each and 2 of them knock)

The province went to write! Well, you are a cunningly tortured character! What kind of crap you write, just to avoid a direct answer to the Vyazemskaya operation.

[Sergey Medvedev]

Quote: serpent

You bring your "correct" version.

I have already brought my version above. Vashu asked, no answer. It is clear, there is nothing to say.
The answer will be? Or is there no knowledge at all?

[snake]

Where did you get your version from? Will there be a link?

[Sergey Medvedev]

I counted it myself. I can count, and you only suck, apparently. Once you have it hurts. If anything, you can refer to me. I allow.
Your own calculations will not be, as I understand it. Well, at least everything is logical here, since you have all thoughts about sucking. And about the links.

[snake]

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

I counted it myself. I can count,

What a chukhnya! He counted himself, damn it! Where did you think, fool? Walking through the battlefields? Balabolka, as there is balabolka! You will not be allowed to enter the archives, you shabby little man, where are you and what did you "count" there? My God, and I live in the same country with such miserable nonentities!
On the one hand, it's funny to get lost over people like you, but on the other hand, this kind of intellectual ballast pulls the country to the bottom. I have not yet met a more flawed interlocutor on VO ...

[Sergey Medvedev]

Quote: serpent

I have not yet met a more flawed interlocutor on VO ...

Mutually.

Quote: serpent

this kind of intellectual ballast pulls the country to the bottom.

Yes, yes, who does not have his own opinion, does not know how to count. Only knows how to be rude.

Quote: serpent

My God, and I live in the same country with such wretched nonentities!

When are you leaving? In the Shining City-on-the-Hill.

[snake]

Quote: Sergei Medvedev

When are you leaving? In the Shining City-on-the-Hill.

I'd rather wait for your departure to the world of eternal lies and misrepresentation of facts.
Look at me, Medved. Once again, you will write a gag - again I will poke you with your muzzle into your manure.

[Sergey Medvedev]

Go already where you were going. You crawl over the manure yourself. There are no paws to keep the muzzle away from the manure.

[vch62388]

Major Sukharsky WEEK at the head of the battalion fought in the casemates? Who kept and ironed his dress uniform? Look at the photo of FELDMARSHAL Paulus surrendering. That orderlies, as it were, will be more. Major Gavrilov in Brest hardly looked alike. And 15 people killed in a week of fierce battles and merciless shelling somehow ...

[Insurgent]

Quote: vch62388

Major Sukharsky WEEK at the head of the battalion fought in the casemates? Who kept and ironed his dress uniform? Look at the photo of FELDMARSHAL Paulus surrendering. That orderlies, as it were, will be more. Major Gavrilov in Brest hardly looked alike. And 15 people killed in a week of fierce battles and merciless shelling somehow ...

It's like that...

[Constanty]

Major Sukharsky did not fight after September 2 - he mentally broke down, and the cap took over command of the defense. Franciszek Dombrowski.
Sukharsky was located in the basement of a brick barracks and did not take part in battles on the front line. In any case, after the first day there were no such people, and the Germans limited themselves to artillery fire and air strikes. When the Germans finally attacked, the Poles surrendered. Although this contradicts the official story and propaganda of the heroes, the defenders surrendered with numerous supplies of ammunition and supplies.
It's another matter that after the construction of Gdynia, Westerplatte itself had no military significance and the maintenance of the garrison was due to exclusively prestigious considerations - which, in my opinion, was a mistake.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: vch62388

Who kept and ironed his dress uniform?

Most likely - just hung on a hanger :)))

[lucul]

According to the plans of the Polish General Staff, from defense, the Polish Armed Forces were to launch a counteroffensive, crush the Wehrmacht, and enter Berlin ...

No kidding, in 1939, the Polish press circulated the topic that in the event of a war with Germany, Poland would win.

[Insurgent]

Quote: lucul

No kidding, in 1939, the Polish press circulated the topic that in the event of a war with Germany, Poland would win.

I'm not kidding.
Here on VO I have already published archival documents and maps of the General Staff of Poland with the "West" plan.

Unfortunately, I did not save the links, and there is no desire to search again. Take it on faith.

Map with the first phase (actions in defense) for the implementation of the "West" plan

[siberalt]

Ha ha! Already on the first day of the war in Poland, Poland, as a state, was gone. All her government cowardly fled abroad, having managed to shake off a part of Czechoslovakia in close collaboration with Hitler.

[lucul]

Ha ha! Already on the first day of the war in Poland, Poland, as a state, was gone. All her government cowardly fled abroad

Well, whose interests did the government represent? Escaped immediately, from the colony, to the overlord under the wing at the slightest threat.

[antivirus]

the cuckoo cries for his children from someone else's nest ... or for other people's children from his nest

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Labrador

But in the end, you screwed him up by placing your troops on the eastern border.

This is a little bit wrong. From the word "absolutely"

[Maz]

Of all the "great and mighty Poland" there were only 180 people who decided to organize an organized rebuff to the Nazis. The fact that they are heroes is understandable, but the fact that they surrendered is a shame. Ours in Brest did not surrender.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Maz

Of all the "great and mighty Poland" there were only 180 people who decided to organize an organized rebuff to the Nazis.

I suppose you are simply not aware of the history of WWII. Just look at the battle on the Bzura River, and the defense of Warsaw was also quite itself ... There were other episodes. The Germans, by the way, believed that the Poles fought very valiantly (although unwise)

[Pilat2009]

Quote: Maz

Of all the "great and mighty Poland" there were only 180 people who decided to organize an organized rebuff to the Nazis. The fact that they are heroes is understandable, but the fact that they surrendered is a shame. Ours in Brest did not surrender.

5 million, Karl. The number of Soviet prisoners of war in World War II, 3.5 million of them in 1941.

[Constanty]

I disagree with your statement. Here is a map of the deployment of Polish troops at the beginning of the war. On the eastern border, apart from the KOP (Border Guard Corps) and a few reserve units, there was no large unit the size of a division, for example

We lost the war because of wrong policies, power imbalances and outdated army, and it is the deployment of troops on the western border with a narrow cordon without reserve and the possibility of flexible response.
And it was not a great moment, but a tragic moment for the Polish army - a moral victory is still a failure.
Glory to the fallen!

[Stirbjorn]

We meet at an iconic place. For many years it was actually abandoned. But today we are restoring it and all its significance.

If abandoned, then after the collapse of the NDP. For during its existence, the memory of the defenders of Westerplatte was immortalized, many times

Westerplatte are named after the Heroes (Defenders):
1st Warsaw Tank Brigade (6 February 1946 transformed into 1st Warsaw Tank Regiment)
Minesweeper "Chaika"
As well as schools and streets in Gdansk and other Polish cities
Monument to the defenders of the coast
The film "Westerplatte" directed by Stanislav Ruzewicz, filmed in 1967 and awarded, in addition to nine Polish awards, a silver medal at the VI Moscow International Film Festival, is dedicated to the dramatic events of the defense.

[apro]

Not great. No. Poland itself purposefully went to its own catastrophe. Took an active part in the preparation of this event ... and as always the soldier paid for the politician's language ..

[Livonetc]

Second world shame of Poland.
But also a lucky lottery ticket.
They got huge territories of Germany with someone else's blood.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Livonetc

They got huge territories of Germany with someone else's blood.

And with someone else's blood, Poland remained a state. If it were not for the Red Army headed by Stalin, then even now there would be not Poland, but the General Governorship (Generalgouvernement). In August 1941, as a separate administrative unit (district), Galicia, with its center in Lvov, was included in the General Government. The German authorities declared Krakow the capital, and German became the state language.

[Thrifty]

No matter how Polyakhia tries to rewrite history, we remember how it all happened! For us, facts are more important than fiction from the anti-Russian authorities in the field!

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Thrifty

No matter how Polyakhia tries to rewrite history, we remember how it all happened!

History is rewritten not by the Poles, nor by the Russians, or by the Ukrainians, but by those in power. I think that many on the site still remember what kind of relationship they had with the Poles before 1991. Already dulled and ended, and their, and our mutual grievances and accusations, have just begun to live humanly, I saw this being in Poland a dozen times every year, although in port cities, but in Polish. And we also had a lot of builders from Poland. And then the marked and fingerless, like an avalanche, everything was taken down into the abyss. The entire Union and all of Eastern Europe are now gnawing at each other like spiders in a jar.

[Baloo]

Pioneer corresponded with a girl from Poland. For them, Westerplatse is real as for us Stalingrad, Leningrad, Moscow. Some Poles fought to the death, others piled into Nagliya. Respect and respect to the fallen, as well as our border guards, the defenders of the Brest Fortress and everyone who went through the Great Patriotic War.

[voyaka uh]

The Polish army in 1939 fought as heroically as
Red Army in 1941.
If the Polish army had the opportunity to retreat hundreds
kilometers, like the Red Army, then the result would be the same:
the failure of the Nazi blitzkrieg.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: voyaka uh

The Polish army in 1939 fought as heroically as
Red Army in 1941.

But not as skillfully. Read Halder's Memories

[apro]

Quote: voyaka uh

If the Polish army had the opportunity to retreat hundreds
kilometers, like the Red Army, then the result would be the same:
the failure of the Nazi blitzkrieg.

As I understand it, you are a major strategist? And why did the Poles not take this moment into account when planning? When provoking Germany to the war.

[voyaka uh]

And the command of the Red Army, therefore, prepared in advance
retreat to the Volga and the Caucasus?
How it happened, it happened. Both the Russians and the Poles fought as best they could and as best they could.
After two weeks of war in 1939, when all combat-ready Polish units fought
on the Western Front against Germany, the Red Army struck in the rear of the Poles.
How can this be taken into account when planning?
The remaining Polish units left across the Romanian border, were interned
and moved to France. A year later, they defended France with De Gaulle.
Then they crossed over to England and returned to France with a landing in Normandy.
There are Polish soldiers who fought from 1939 to 1945 - 7 years.

[apro]

Quote: voyaka uh

The Red Army struck the rear of the Poles

All familiar phrases ... bravo. But nothing that the USSR did not recognize the seizure of western Belarus and western Ukraine? But really, how can one take into account the fact that Poland has done little mischief to its neighbors, but how to ask.

Quote: voyaka uh

And the command of the Red Army, therefore, prepared in advance
retreat to the Volga and the Caucasus?

I acted according to the situation and possibilities.

Quote: voyaka uh

There are Polish soldiers who fought from 1939 to 1945 - 7 years.

And you will not announce the results of their combat activities? So these fighters through France, England, Libya. Iran, Warsaw was liberated and Berlin was taken?

[voyaka uh]

1) "I acted according to the situation. And possibilities." ///
----
Right.
And I wrote: "Both Russians and Poles fought as best they could and as best they could"
----
2) Imagine that in 1941, when the USSR concentrated all its forces in
their western regions, reflecting Nazi aggression,
Japan strikes in the rear in the Far East. The war would be ... very difficult.
Now you will understand what the Poles experienced when the Red Army hit the rear from the east.
And one can always make excuses that "they were bad".

[apro]

Quote: voyaka uh

Japan strikes in the rear in the Far East. The war would be ... very difficult.

As I understand it, the USSR seized the original Japanese territories? And conducted subversive activities in Japanese territory? Participated in the aggression on the Japanese islands

Quote: voyaka uh

And one can always make excuses that "they were bad".

Of course, all the more so when there is enough factual material.

[Rakovor]

Without belittling the heroism of the Poles, it is still not necessary to compare the Wehrmacht of the 1939 model with the Wehrmacht of the 1941 model. This is heaven and earth. Against the Poles, these were still "raw" units, which, according to the Germans themselves, had many shortcomings, and against us - an already perfect combat vehicle.

[iouris]

And the army of General Anders? She "retreated hundreds of kilometers" deep into the USSR, and then ... heroically retreated another thousand kilometers. "Heroically" the Poles defended themselves only against the Red Army.

[Stirbjorn]

Quote: Balu

For them, Westerplatse is real as for us Stalingrad, Leningrad, Moscow.

Another defense of Visna, against the entire corps of Guderian. The Swedish Sabaton released a song about this, for which the Ministry of Defense of Poland gave them officer daggers.

[unhappy]

For many years (a significant place) was abandoned ... (c)
We don’t remember yesterday, we remember today, we won’t remember tomorrow - cynical politicians. Yesterday's enemies are friends, and friends are enemies again, and tomorrow the position will change again.

[sergo1914]

Schleswig, IMHO, that's another iron. It is unclear why the Poles did not beg him from ours after the war. We would have put it in an eternal stop in Danzig. It would be beautiful.

[Operator]

Of the entire Polish company in 1939, one can only recall the "defense" of a warehouse that no one needs by quartermasters

[Graz]

well, the Germans were laughing at the horse attack on their armored vehicles

[Rakovor]

There was no equestrian attack on tanks, no need to repeat the replicated nonsense.

[Rakovor]

Well, if your memory is bad and you don’t remember anything (or don’t know), it doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen.

[dvina71]

Quote: Rakovor

you don’t remember (or don’t know)

It is enough to remember one thing .. The Polish army before the German attack 1 million of them killed 66 thousand, 700 thousand prisoners ..

[Cat]

It was a great moment for the Polish army.

Yes, great ... And the fact that parts of the Polish Army took part in the capture of Berlin is just a minor episode.
Then, by analogy, the same great moment as the surrender of the 6th Army for the Wehrmacht; or for the British the heroic drape from Dunkirk and the surrender of Singapore.
But interestingly, in Italy, Romania and Hungary nothing of the kind is celebrated on the anniversary of the end of the Battle of Stalingrad?

[apro]

Quote: Gato

And the fact that units of the Polish Army took part in the capture of Berlin is just a minor episode.

Don't tell the Poles ... they weren't the right communist Poles ..

[Cat]

not correct communist Poles.

The trend, however ... communist Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, Chinese, Vietnamese, etc. usually win wars, not communist ones - on the contrary

[rocket757]

A lost battle, with a won military campaign, can be recognized as you like.
When to play inside and out ...

[tihonmarine]

Continuity is important to us. Today it is expressed in the heroism of the soldiers who defended Poland at Westerplatte. It was a great moment for the Polish army.

Or maybe this is the kind of continuity - when on September 1, 1939, President I. Mostsicki left Warsaw. And on September 17 this day became a tragic one in Polish history. And not because the USSR attacked Poland, as modern Polish propaganda trumpets, but because on that day Poland was betrayed and thrown at the mercy of Nazi Germany by its leaders - President Ignatius Moscitsky, the government, Foreign Minister Beck and most importantly - Polish commander-in-chief Edward Rydz-Smygly with headquarters!

[withoutreverse]

does anyone remember .. how long this "great" army of Poland lasted

[beeper]

Well, yes, having begun a frenzied anti-Soviet-anti-Russian revision of modern history, the Polish authorities "ran into what they fought for" the unsightly role of Poland as an "insatiable European hyena" and the most active accomplice of Hitler's Germany in unleashing the Second World War in Europe!
And now the Poles are frantically trying to "symbolically stake out" the date of Germany's attack on its insolent Polish ally, as if the date of the beginning of WWII and themselves, as its "first victim", although the first victim of the aggressive sniper of WWII, Germany and Poland, was Czechoslovakia!
Even, "for many years (while the USSR, the Department of Internal Affairs and the Stalinist interpretation of the history of Poland not as a European aggressor, but as an alleged victim) existed, the Poles did not have to worry about the abandoned" legendary "Westerplat, but now, with the militant anti-Soviet For years, the unspoken, unsightly truth about Poland, the Polish death camps and active Polish complicity to the Nazis in the "Judenfrei policy", almost a million Polish "Volksdeutsch" and Poles in the Wehrmacht, has surfaced and is made public !!!) "abandoned, Westerplatte was put in order and "restore its significance" ?!
We are waiting for the "restoration of the significance" of the radio station in Gleiwitz, something else will happen, taking into account the ever-raising German revanchism!
Weak-minded and forgetful Polish Russophobes , in an anti-Soviet-anti-Russian rage, who sawed off a branch, on which they sat down well in 1945 out of the kindness of J. V. Stalin, in vain they forgot (or did not know) the "golden words":

Do not be dashing while it is quiet!

IMHO

[7,62x54]

One garrison fought against the Nazis. The rest have long understood that it is better to be under the wing of the Nazis than under their feet.

[Rakovor]

Well, in general, a large part of the Polish army fought against the Nazis, you can recall the heroic defense of Warsaw or the counteroffensive on Bzura, which caused the Germans certain problems and forced them to go on the defensive for a while, and there were other episodes.

[fruit_cake]

in the 20s, taking advantage of the moment, Poland seized German, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Lithuanian lands, the subsequent result was predictable

[Moskal 55]

In this war, Poland had a small event that contrasts with all the rest of the shame for the army and the country, and they make it a national holiday. And in what kind of mud we were playing our heroes during perestroika and in the 90s, and even now we have a lot of rains and echoes of Moscow. They wanted to go to Europe, and they betrayed their fathers and grandfathers for delicacies and clothes. It is for this that we need to repent, and not for "repression"!

[iouris]

Stop chewing this gum. WWII did not begin in 1939 in Europe and did not end in Europe. The war began with Japan's attack on China and ended with Japan's surrender. And the Polish army was embarrassed and most of it fought with arms against the anti-Hitler coalition.

[voyaka uh]

This is in alternate history. There are many interesting things people come up with.
Fortunately, the Internet tolerates everything.

[iouris]

This was known even before the Internet. It's all about adherence to certain "values", not the Internet. The organizers of the First and Second World Wars in the Old World were certain circles in the United States and they were primarily interested in China (in the broadest sense) and the Pacific Ocean. It began with the creation of a beachhead in the Philippines. Japan and Germany are both breast-fed by the United States. Bottom line: the United States became the only great power in 1945, all the gold in the world migrated to the United States, the US industry is beyond competition, everyone is politically and economically dependent on the United States. Well, or so it happened by chance.

[dvina71]

Quote: Petrik66

The total losses of the Germans (wounded, killed, missing) in the Brest Fortress amounted to 1197 people, of which 87 were Wehrmacht officers

do not these figures seem strange to you? Or the Wehrmacht officers stormed the fortress in the forefront? Otherwise, such losses cannot be explained .. or rather, the percentage in total.
And the losses of the Wehrmacht ... were calculated in a very peculiar way ..
In fact, it turned out that they had used up all 23 million of their mob potential by the end of 44 years ... and they began to call in the army all who can hold weapons ..
In the USSR, the mob potential was greater, but the two ages planned for the call were never called up, and some were lost in the most densely populated territories captured by Germany.
More than 14 million people have gone through the appeals. In general, these figures are closely correlated with modern estimates of the losses of the Red Army.