"Stealth technology is becoming a thing of the past": the prospect of ROFAR integration into the skin of Russian satellites is being discussed

Recently it was reported that tests of a prototype of the newest radio-photonic antenna array have been completed in our country. This is, in fact, a prototype of a radar based on ROFAR, which will make it possible to make a significant step forward in the development of the country's defense potential. The statement about the end of testing of the ROFAR prototype was made by the general director of the Vega concern Vyacheslav Mikheev, as reported by Voennoye Obozreniye in one of the news materials.

Special attention of experts was drawn to the words of Vyacheslav Mikheev that the technology used (and it is implemented on the basis of the Russian component base) makes it possible to install a signal receiver-transmitter as an integrated element in the skin of not only aircraft and warships, but also satellites.

If a radio-optical (radio-photonic) phased array is integrated into the skin of Russian satellites, this promises great prospects for the development of satellite technologies for the same military purposes.

A grouping of satellites with ROFAR will be able to monitor any air and surface military objects of a potential enemy, including objects that are today positioned as stealth objects - unobtrusive. At the same time, signals from radio-photonic radars used on satellites, as well as on means of combat aviation and ships of the Russian Navy, will make it possible to create a complete picture of possible targets with full provision of their detailed characteristics to the command centers. Aircraft and ship crews will be able to receive accurate target information at distances that by definition are not available to current generation radars. In turn, such information associated with early warning will improve the effectiveness of countering threats by building tactics for blocking such threats.

Thus, if the radar system with ROFAR is implemented in the Aerospace Forces and the Russian Navy, then the effectiveness of the enemy's stealth technology can be forgotten. By and large, with the work on ROFAR, stealth technology itself is becoming a thing of the past.

Comments

[yfast]

It looks like New Vasyuki.

[APASUS]

Quote: yfast

It looks like New Vasyuki.

As I understand it, a specialist in photonics and laser technology. What is wrong, explain what the problems are

[g1washntwn]

A person at the stage of perceiving the world "it cannot be", let him grow at least to "soyuzmultfilm", then he himself will grow into "he will be destroyed."

[Nehist]

Let's go from the other side !!! To hang all this on satellites, Rogozin must be removed from Roskosmos for a start, according to the Navy, this very Navy, roughly speaking, must be created anew ...
So yeah New Vasyuki get

[NEXUS]

Quote: Nehist

Let's go from the other side !!! To hang it all on satellites

ROFAR was originally developed for ... MARINE PLATFORMS. Then it will be placed on LA. After all this, and on satellites.
As for stealth technology ... it was outdated 30 years ago. The fact that there are sensors making mattresses, and so on ... it's all marketing and nothing more. Stealth is not a panacea, but only there is a certain additional device that slightly complicates the enemy's work to capture. Air combat, or underwater (yes, whatever), these values ​​and conditions are instantly changing, and no stealth is able to nullify target capture and destruction.
As for ROFAR ... This radar will become the gravestone of the entire advertising campaign of the Anglo-Saxons using stealth technology. And the Anglo-Saxons are well aware of this.
Here another question is very important. I really hope that some military-industrial complex employee in this matter, unexpectedly did not become a "traitor to the Motherland", having leaked the data to our enemy. And there were precedents not so long ago.

[keeper03]

Traitors to the wall! Although right now, no way, well then, make them deaf and dumb!

[Vol4ara]

Quote: NEXUS

As for stealth technology ... it was outdated 30 years ago.

Apparently in the MO they are stupid, since they are trying to implement it on su 57. And in China they are stupid and in America, you alone are smart, you write a letter to the MO, otherwise they do not know.

[NEXUS]

Quote: Vol4ara

Apparently in the MO they are stupid, since they are trying to implement it on su 57. And in China they are stupid and in America, you alone are smart, you write a letter to the MO, otherwise they do not know.

Stupid, this is someone who has not learned to read, and scribbles a comment without even understanding the essence of what he was going to write an answer to.
For those who do not understand Cyrillic, I repeat-

Quote: NEXUS

Stealth is not a panacea, but only there is a certain additional device that slightly complicates the enemy's work to capture.

[Ka-52]

Stupid, this is someone who has not learned to read, and scribbles a comment without even understanding the essence of what he was going to write an answer to.
For those who do not understand Cyrillic, I repeat-

Nexus,

[Vol4ara]

Quote: NEXUS

Stupid, this is someone who has not learned to read, and scribbles a comment without even understanding the essence of what he was going to write an answer to.
For those who do not understand Cyrillic, I repeat-

I completely agree with you, I did not expect such self-criticism from your side.

"The technology that is outdated 30 years ago, which short-sighted countries put on their planes" and "gives a slight advantage", do not you think that these theses are from different operas and need to be considered separately or the main thing for you "scribbles a comment without even understanding the essence of that he was going to write an answer. " ?

[Boris Chernikov]

by the way, the Americans at one time yelled that they would keep only the F-22 / F-35, and here they bought new F-15s and new F-16s along the way ...

[neri73-r]

Quote: Boris Chernikov

by the way, the Americans at one time yelled that they would keep only the F-22 / F-35, and here they bought new F-15s and new F-16s along the way ...

You have to fight on something, advertising and marketing will not fly far and will not fight!

[Eragon]

Quote: APASUS

Quote: yfast

It looks like New Vasyuki.

As I understand it, a specialist in photonics and laser technology. What is wrong, explain what the problems are

For example, what is in ROFAR for receivers. Are bolometers really? After all, the receiver must be very sensitive. But how are they then cooled, because liquid helium cannot be built into the skin.

[APASUS]

Quote: Eragon

For example, what is in ROFAR for receivers. Are bolometers really?

Bolometers are based on the principle of IR absorption, right?
The idea of ​​ROFAR is to use photons with a certain polarization to detect a target and obtain its image. The target is illuminated by a stream of specially polarized light, and the photons reflected from the target are used to compose an image of the target.

[Eragon]

Quote: APASUS

Bolometers are based on the principle of IR absorption, right?
The idea of ​​ROFAR is to use photons with a certain polarization to detect a target and obtain its image. The target is illuminated by a stream of specially polarized light, and the photons reflected from the target are used to compose an image of the target.

Thank you for the information, but I do not only read articles on VO and how ROFAR works quite well. I'm talking about something else. I mentioned bolometers as the most obvious type of receiver. The question is sensitivity and there is no way without superconductivity. At stationary stations, and on satellites, when placing ROFAR from the shadow side, the issue is easily resolved. But I have no idea how to fit the cooling system onto airplanes. Yes, bolometers without superconductivity are used in many places, but the range does not exceed hundreds of meters, and here are hundreds of kilometers. As an option, more likely from the field of science fiction - they found superconductors at room temperature, but this is an even more possible breakthrough in technology than ROFAR, but something has not been heard about this.

[APASUS]

Quote: Eragon

But I have no idea how to fit the cooling system onto airplanes. Yes, bolometers without superconductivity are used in many places, but the range does not exceed hundreds of meters, and here there are hundreds of kilometers.

I think we will never know some of the parameters, but sometimes snippets of performance characteristics slip by
As it was a tiny little note, how ours solved the issue of maneuvering at high speeds in 10-15 swings and this is not a gas rudder

[SRC P-15]

The other day it was reported that tests of a prototype of the newest radio-photonic antenna array have been completed in our country.

Well, why should this be trumpeted to the whole world? It may be better to present the enemy with a fait accompli - i.e. a ready-to-use product?

[g1washntwn]

Or maybe the failure to fulfill the plan for the spies? They ran to Nenoks, losing their skis.

[slipped]

Quote: SRC P-15

It may be better to present the enemy with a fait accompli - i.e. a ready-to-use product?

Well, here's the active phased antenna array of the Kasatka-R space radar complex.

The onboard equipment of the Kasatka-R radar is based on a broadband polarimetric digital active phased array (AFAR) X-band (operating wavelength of about 3 cm). Kasatka-R implements an advanced digital antenna beamforming technology that allows the radar to generate high-resolution image frames that are much larger in size than the image frames obtained by classic single-beam radars.

Installation on spacecraft this year, launch next.

[SRC P-15]

Quote: slipped

Well, here's the active phased antenna array of the Kasatka-R space radar complex.

This article is not about AFAR at all! And about the radio-optical (radio-photonic) phased antenna array (ROFAR). It's like comparing glasses to binoculars.

[slipped]

Quote: SRC P-15

And about the radio-optical (radio-photonic) phased antenna array (ROFAR). It's like comparing glasses to binoculars.

You asked for a "ready-to-go product". And ROFAR is still an experiment; it is still far from the actual installation of such a radar on a spacecraft. Our nearest radar spacecraft are three small Kondor-FKA and a pair of Obzor-R - just with the Kasatka. Of course I was talking about "civilian" spacecraft.

[SRC P-15]

Quote: slipped

You asked for a "ready-to-go product". And ROFAR is still an experiment; it is still far from the actual installation of such a radar on a spacecraft.

That is why I wrote that there is no need to loudly declare a still raw product to the whole world as a fait accompli! A "ready-to-use product" - ie. AFAR, not only we have it!

[slipped]

Quote: SRC P-15

That is why I wrote that there is no need to loudly declare a still raw product to the whole world as a fait accompli! A "ready-to-use product" - ie. AFAR, not only we have it!

Firstly, there is no such thing as "Kasatka-R". Secondly, the statement was about the end of the tests of the ROFAR radar and about its future applied purpose, but this will not be the case.

[Soho]

there is no need to loudly declare a still raw product to the whole world as a fait accompli! A "ready-to-use product" - i.e. AFAR, not only we have it!

What there is no need is to write nonsense without reading the article carefully. And it simply states the completion of the tests of a certain sample. And also about the advantages of technology. Where is it written about the "raw" product?

[anykin]

Quote: СРЦ П-15

It may be better to present the enemy with a fait accompli - i.e. a ready-to-use product?

Maybe to reset contracts for stealth weapons?

[SRC P-15]

Quote: anykin

Maybe to reset contracts for stealth weapons?

For the US to stop riveting its Figs? Do not live! This is what loot in business!

[Vita vko]

Quote: СРЦ П-15

Well, why should this be trumpeted to the whole world?

When they trumpeted about "Star Wars" the USSR economy practically collapsed. ROFAR on the satellites of their same opera only for the USA. After all, no one can cancel the laws of radar, and therefore huge amounts of necessary energy. And where to get this energy on the satellite is a big big question.

[SRC P-15]

Quote: Vita VKO

When they trumpeted about "Star Wars" the USSR economy practically collapsed.

There is no need to tell the tales of a foreign grandmother. The SDI program did not harm the USSR. The economy collapsed for completely different reasons - first, the US conspiracy with the Saudis to collapse in oil prices, and then the betrayal of the top and the surrender of all positions in favor of the West.
As for the "Star Wars", our scientists acted simply: if the United States fulfilled its intentions, then we just had to launch a bucket of nails into space and all their vaunted satellites would hit the ground. Maybe this is a joke, but the US still abandoned SDI. And most likely precisely because the USSR was not led to their "star wars".

[spectr]

So in fact nowhere is it written that it was successfully completed. Most likely, they assembled a unit that they managed to somehow start and get something. And when the Ministry of Defense wants to get a serial product based on similar principles, then the most interesting thing will begin. Offices that are firmly on their feet are likely to fight off this locator, and those who, in principle, have nothing to lose (that is, either "fall apart" in the near future, or after this work).
IMHO, a real serial product based on new principles will appear not earlier than in 10 years. And then, if the Ministry of Defense, due to lack of funds (and now every year they announce the next cuts in the military budget), will not suspend these works at all.
It is possible that according to the results of the work, a "not frail" list of comments and recommendations was received (it will pull on a good book). And to fulfill / eliminate some key points may require hundreds of millions, and maybe even billions (for example, the organization of new production facilities. In this situation, in general, in 20-30 years a serial sample will appear).

[Civil]

He was always dubious about "stealth" against modern air defense. And against the third world countries this "stele" is redundant.

[venik]

Quote: yfast

It looks like New Vasyuki.

=======
Sounds like a comment demagogue.

[Imperial Technocrat]

loxland yes

[Sentinel-vs]

The confrontation between the shield and the sword continues. In the recent past, some technological innovations have significantly changed the concept of warfare. Perhaps this will be one of such stages.

[Victor_B]

The jester knows him ...
Sometimes a fairy tale comes true!
I would like to believe that we have bypassed potential friends in this matter.
You look and the Nobel Prize will arrive in time.

[AML]

Oh damn already, and the satellites dragged. From satellites, you can stupidly radiate signals to the surface of the earth and monitor movement by distorting these signals and no stealth will help. So what for such a button accordion is not clear.

[rocket757]

Camouflage systems for military objects will also develop !!!
Found opposition to one method, they will invent another!
Eternal struggle, the same as a sword against a shield.

[Undecim]

Reading such "news", which are now constantly pouring in, immediately recalls the classic - "Quiet Don" by Sholokhov; "" The chicken is in the nest, and the testicle is ... forgive me! What a stupid people! "

[Roman246810]

the prospect is being discussed

This is about combat lasers ..
There, too, it seems like there is a prospect ..
And it is also being discussed ..

But Stealth is a thing of the past, judging by the title - tomorrow ..))

[We are for our]

Most amusing is the fact that the same people have been burying stealth for decades and how children rejoice even about the development of domestic stealth aircraft, missiles and ships.

[Sidor Amenpodestovich]

Title:

Quote: Roman246810

"Stealth technology is becoming a thing of the past": the prospect of ROFAR integration into the skin of Russian satellites is being discussed

.
How did you understand from him that stealth technology is becoming a thing of the past tomorrow?

[Roman246810]

I just realized that she is not going anywhere ..)) For the prospects of ROFAR integration have not yet been "discussed" .. and after they have discussed, it is not known what they will decide ..

It's just that in the title, the causal relationship is not entirely defined ..

Putin resigns: the prospect of imprisoning Medvedev is being discussed ..

Medvedev flew abroad: the prospect of Putin's resignation is being discussed ..

[Voltsky]

6G means Rofar fits into the 6G concept in all respects. and moreover here stealth xs,

[_Ugene_]

I still don't understand what is the breakthrough in stealth detection compared to conventional AFAR? Efficiency, noise immunity is higher, the possibility of conformal placement of antennas, this is all good, but what exactly is the breakthrough in stealth? In an ultra-wideband signal? In dm. and see the ranges, this signal will be as ineffective as the usual AFAR due to the sharpening of the stealth for these ranges, the principle of generation is different, but um wave it is an um wave, and what remains? In meters, obviously, it will not work, but we get down to mm, IR, visible, UV radiation, etc. The detection range is too small in these ranges.
Can someone explain it clearly?

[_Ugene_]

looks like no

[Cube123]

Quote: _Ugene_

I still don't understand what is the breakthrough in stealth detection compared to conventional AFAR?

Here's an article to shed some light on your questions.
"Photonic radars, radiophotonics and stealth technologies"

https://naukatehnika.com/fotonnye-radary-fotonika-stels-texnologii.html

[_Ugene_]

Have you read it yourself? If yes, can you answer my question? I did not see the answer in this article, I briefly cited all the advantages described there. I will not say anything about obvious blunders and nonsense in this article. One gets the feeling that everyone is like parrots repeating one after another, but no one understands what they are saying

[Cube123]

Quote: _Ugene_

Have you read it yourself? If yes, can you answer my question? I did not see the answer in this article, I briefly cited all the advantages described there. I will not say anything about obvious blunders and nonsense in this article. One gets the feeling that everyone is like parrots repeating one after another, but no one understands what they are saying

I read it, and I think I even understood. But I am a radio engineer by training. It's close to me. And how to explain to a non-professional of unknown qualifications - I'm sorry, I don't know. And about the range, the article has enough information
"The operation of a radio-photonic receiving channel with optical heterodyning can be used in the studied scheme for its use as a universal receiving channel providing a bandwidth of up to 100 MHz (signal duration up to 10 ns) with a carrier frequency of tens of GHz at a signal-to-noise ratio of 60 -70 dB (10-11 effective bits of the digitized signal). It is also promising to use the mode of suppression of the carrier optical frequency in the modulators of the receiving channel. In this case, the signal-to-noise ratio increases several times, and it is not necessary to use narrow-band optical filters in the circuit ...

Content Source: https://naukatehnika.com/fotonnye-radary-fotonika-stels-texnologii.html
naukatehnika.com "

[_Ugene_]

The ability to explain complex things in understandable language speaks of a deep understanding of the essence of the issue and vice versa. Or, in another way, Einstein said the same thing: “It's just difficult to explain the complicated. It is difficult to explain the complex simply. "
And if it's simple, then puffing up your cheeks and doing a clever look of the mind does not take much.

[Cube123]

Quote: _Ugene_

The ability to explain complex things in understandable language speaks of a deep understanding of the essence of the issue and vice versa. Or, in another way, Einstein said the same thing: “It's just difficult to explain the complicated. It is difficult to explain the complex simply. "

The question remains - to whom to explain? Are you by any chance a spy, since you are interested in the technical details of the system, which even the creators are still talking about only in hints? It's nothing personal.

[_Ugene_]

nothing personal, but as I understood your education was not enough for more than pretending that you understand something
The main idea of ​​radio photonics is the use of an optical channel for signal transmission and processing at an intermediate frequency. Emission and reception are conventional radio waves. Suppose we have a broadband signal at the output of the radar, but the most "working" range of this signal in radar will also be ineffective due to the ultra-small EPS stealth in this range (dm and cm), and frequencies below - mm, submm, IR are ineffective due to too short detection range in these ranges. So what's the breakthrough in stealth detection?

[Cube123]

Quote: _Ugene_

Suppose we have a broadband signal at the output of the radar, but the most "working" range of this signal in radar will also be ineffective due to the ultra-small EPS stealth in this range (dm and cm), and frequencies below - mm, submm, IR are ineffective due to too short detection range in these ranges.

You have completely misunderstood the article. However, it is really difficult to understand it. The essence is different - in the receiving channel, the convolution of the reflected radiation and the irradiating one is taken, the LF envelope is selected, which is digitized by a high-speed ADC. Next is the very serious mathematics of processing the waveform. Those. the information is carried not by the presence of "yes / no" reflection, but by its form.
Try to find the book by Richard M. Kronover "Fractals and Chaos in Dynamical Systems" Moscow, Technosphere, 2006. There, in the appendix there is an article by A. A. Potapov "Fractals and Chaos as the Basis of Breakthrough Technologies in Modern Radio Systems". There is a block diagram and a contour of a system very close in iron is outlined. And it is considered just on the examples of stealth signatures. But there is all the trick in the processing math. And how serious she is can be judged from this bibliography
https://journals.ssau.ru/index.php/pwp/article/view/7242
"New direction in radiophysics: fractal-scaling or scale-invariant radar"
A.A. Potapov

And just keep in mind that this is just one possible path. Naturally, I don’t know which way was used in “Vega”. So, this is just an example of the possible.

[Cube123]

And pay attention to paragraph 64 of the bibliography:
"Potapov A.A. Fractal scaling methods in radar // Jubilee STC of JSC Concern Vega: Program and theses (Moscow, October 16-17, 2014). M .: JSC Concern Vega, 2014. P. 9 (see, also, Advances in modern radio electronics. 2015. No. 5). "

[_Ugene_]

in the receiving channel, a convolution of the reflected radiation and the irradiating

where is the signal processing? I'm talking about the fact that the signal first needs to be received so that there is something to process, if in the range of stealth (for example) it reflects at the level of the natural background, then what to process? and the higher the frequency, the stronger the atmospheric absorption and attenuation of em waves, starting from the V-band due to the phenomenon of scattering on molecules (influence of air humidity) attenuation of em waves is such that the radar range is of the order of tens of meters

[Cube123]

Quote: _Ugene_

where is the signal processing?

Sorry, but after this question I lost all desire to discuss this issue. You do not understand the basics of radar, and this is for a long time. I have given you links to all the information you need. If you want to understand, you will understand. The main thing that needs to be understood is that it is the algorithms for processing the received information that make it possible to single out the reflected signal with a level several orders of magnitude below the unit signal-to-noise ratio. This is how much the sensitivity of the receiving channel increases. And this is what more than compensates for all efforts to reduce the ESR using stealth technology.

[_Ugene_]

Sorry, but after this question I lost all desire to discuss this issue.

I say, puffing out your cheeks and pretending to be smart

[The eye of the crying]

You are really being told about the basics.

[Prahlad]

Even you have merged =)

[_Ugene_]

but what's the point of pounding water in a mortar, I'm talking to him about Thomas, and he is either talking about a shit or a smart guy from himself, apparently he doesn't understand what I'm talking about and copy-paste just, not the third time to write the same thing

[K298rtm]

To implement complex processing algorithms, a very powerful (and also small-sized) processor is required for a satellite. Is it already there (domestic)?

[AML]

It is not the plane itself as such that is investigated, but the disturbances that are caused by its movement. Therefore, even if the plane is physically invisible, it is possible to understand its presence through secondary factors.

Some analogy. For example, you have a bowl of water and several different items. You know what the water level is at rest. You place one of the objects in a basin and, according to a new level, you immediately understand the volume of the object in question. Without seeing a submerged object, you can guess what exactly was submerged. If the level remains unchanged, then there is nothing in the basin besides the water.

[_Ugene_]

not the disturbances are investigated, but the RADIO WAVE REFLECTED FROM THE OBJECT, if, roughly speaking, nothing is reflected or is reflected at the level of natural interference, then what is the point of talking about super-duper processing of the reflected signal?

[Zefr]

a universal receiving channel providing a bandwidth up to 100 MHz (signal duration up to 10 ns) with a carrier frequency of tens of GHz n

Well, that is, it is not so much a signal emitter as a carrier frequency for modulating any other radio frequency signal? As in a tape recorder - recording high-frequency noise, modulated by sound vibrations?

[The eye of the crying]

This article says that ROFAR is a quantum radar. At the same time, it is argued that ROFAR uses polarized photons. It seems that the author of the article just mixed everything together and knows nothing in reality.

[lucul]

Can someone explain it clearly?

For what purpose are you interested? ))))
The tests have been completed, the sample has confirmed the stated characteristics. And the secret details, but in the public domain, no one will tell you.

[_Ugene_]

another smart guy pretending that he understands something

[Elephant]

If ROFARs provide us with some success in the military race, then testing should be accelerated and these devices should be riveted at military factories day and night.

[rruvim]

Not really funny. My son, he is studying in the magistracy of Baumanki, said: if the ROFAR technology is brought to "iron", then all the radio-absorbing coatings and "image" (corners) of aircraft products can be forgotten. The end of stealth technology, in short.

[askort154]

Thus, if the radar system with ROFAR is implemented in the Aerospace Forces and the Russian Navy, then the effectiveness of the enemy's stealth technology can be forgotten.


Not for bragging rights. A couple of years ago, I expounded my thoughts here. That "stealth" is a utopia. Unreasonably promoted expensive brand of the 20th century. In the second half of the 21st century, it will be abandoned. I was then "booed". But I haven't changed my opinion.

[voyaka uh]

Does not look like it.
Raider will only start shipping in a few years.
And in the middle of the century he will become the main bomber-strategist of the United States.
And it's all about stealth technology.
And I don't think that the Pentagon is not aware of the new AFARs / ROFARs.

[lucul]

And I don't think that the Pentagon is not aware of the new AFARs / ROFARs.

I think not in the know, Crimea as an example)))

[SovAr238A]

Quote: lucul

And I don't think that the Pentagon is not aware of the new AFARs / ROFARs.

I think not in the know, Crimea as an example)))

It is strange that you put on the same board for comparison at the same time the fundamental science, which simply is and ordinary human actions that are not subject to physical laws ...

It characterizes you very much ...
Did you dabble in drugs in your youth? Anasha for example? Very simply illustrative examples from my former patients who developed the rustling shamometer, i.e. a device for measuring the rustle of foliage ...

[rruvim]

Why is the implementation of ROFAR in Russia possible and realistic? Because we have a very developed physics and mathematics school since Soviet times. "Hardware" of ROFAR without software is nothing. Actually - the idea itself is software.

[Livonetc]

And here you belittle the physicists, chemists and materials science of Russia.
School of mathematics and programming are undoubtedly important.
However, the most complex and time-consuming developments are just in the zone of fundamental and after applied developments in the field of physics, chemistry and as a result of breakthroughs in new physical principles and materials science.
Everything is important.

[rruvim]

I agree! Moreover, in photonics, material scientists' research is very important. Especially in the field of silicon and silicates.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: rruvim

I agree! Moreover, in photonics, material scientists' research is very important. Especially in the field of silicon and silicates.

Is there still silicon?
Everything there had to leave already 20 years ago to Gallium and Germanium ...

[lucul]

Actually - the idea itself is software.

Behold at the root.

[rruvim]

There is a standard (ancient) way of jamming a classic radar (at least meter, at least dtsm. Range), dropping corner reflectors (aluminum foil is chopped off) from the board, for example, AN-12. For a standard P-15 type radar (old woman), this is "snow" on the indicator. For ROFAR, this is not hindrance, but the object of study, because with the appropriate software it shows the appearance and area of ​​the corner reflector, the number of dropped reflectors, vertical and horizontal speed, etc. etc.

[voyaka uh]

Of course, radars are evolving.
But stealth technology does not stand still.
Chips will be inserted into the coating, which will track which radio waves
this part of the aircraft fuselage is irradiated.
And the absorption capacity will adjust to
irradiating radio waves. Radio mimicry.
And at the first stage, simpler things will appear:
lens sensors that allow changing the RCS of the aircraft directly in flight.
From a minimum smoothly to the size of B-52.

[rruvim]

With one exception ... Very expensive! Even Israel cannot afford to put sensor lenses on their wearers. Too expensive!

[voyaka uh]

Israel will do it first. The first experimental F-35I with
factory prepared for such sensors will arrive in early 2021.
The technology will be worked out on it, and it will become serial.

[rruvim]

May God grant you to do it! But it's still expensive, especially if you use the F-35I. But it will still be interesting.

[Dzafdet]

It was not a prototype. The prototype was tested 15 years ago ... Installation on SU-57 - in 2024 ... When on drones, it is not yet clear ... https: //zen.yandex.ru/media/survival_task/rossiiskie-injenery-sovershili- proryv-sozdan-pervyi-v-mire-rofarradar-5f4c9b5f8997d74f2257ed46? & utm_campaign = dbr

[Dzafdet]

Quote: voyaka uh

Of course, radars are evolving.
But stealth technology does not stand still.
Chips will be inserted into the coating, which will track which radio waves
this part of the aircraft fuselage is irradiated.
And the absorption capacity will adjust to
irradiating radio waves. Radio mimicry.
And at the first stage, simpler things will appear:
lens sensors that allow changing the RCS of the aircraft directly in flight.
From a minimum smoothly to the size of B-52.

And the price of such an aircraft will be $ 500 million. Expensive toy. They can be seen even now, and even more so with ROFAR ... And we will bring them down in batches from the sky ... and kill the pilots on the ground ...

[tuts]

like stealth, in the mid-90s, they learned to see by passing hundreds of cell towers by plane

[agond]

Quote: _Ugene_

where is the signal processing? I'm talking about the fact that the signal first needs to be received so that there is something to process, if in the range of stealth (for example) it reflects at the level of the natural background, then what to process? and the higher the frequency, the stronger the atmospheric absorption and attenuation of em waves, starting from the V-band due to the phenomenon of scattering on molecules (influence of air humidity) attenuation of em waves is such that the radar range is of the order of tens of meters

I completely agree with you, at the beginning you need to receive the signal, and then process it, that is, if there is no signal from the object, then there is nothing to process and no wonderful algorithms will help here, but the mechanism of obtaining a signal using the ROFAR system is not clear

[rruvim]

It is understandable, ROFAR processes photons (return) in radio frequencies.

[rruvim]

There was another project: a coil of copper wire is buried in the ground. Any passing metal object nearby, at any height, caused magnetic resonance, there was a "burst" on the oscilloscope. He himself observed at the Sary-Shagan training ground in 1986.

[Andryukha G]

no need to scare the kakos so categorically, let them believe for another 5 or 25 years that their so-called cardboard stealth technologies are "successful", until then suddenly (like the crashed F 117 in Yugoslavia) the loss of expensive aircraft began

[Military77]

I am very much afraid of the bad trend that has existed for the last 8-10 years. As soon as an open infa about the latest developments appears (Armata, T-50 (Su-57)), then from the moment the information appears, to the delivery to the troops, the time creeps indefinitely to the right. As soon as infa appears about developments that were kept in strict secrecy (Vanguard, Poseidon), then these weapons are accepted and delivered with a staggering speed. Maybe this is just the same game as the Americans of the USSR trolled with SDI?

[voyaka uh]

This is not the point.
If the development is a Soviet development pulled from the "archive",
then its revision and implementation go quickly. Vanguard is an example.
If the development is "from scratch", then it is greatly delayed.
Examples: Su-57, Armata.

[rruvim]

Alexey. ROFAR is a reality! Making hardware is not a problem. There would be political will. The software is already there. But the introduction of this radar will completely change the "situation" in the cockpit, for example, in the SU-57.

[voyaka uh]

The problem is to make the hardware. And stick it in
very limited nose diameter of the Su-57.
When will an AFAR assembly line appear in Russia for
fighters Su-57, Su-35, MiG-35, then I will gladly
I will believe in aviation ROFAR.
It is possible to generate the sent radio waves by an electrical signal, and
can be laser. This is a natural evolution of airborne radars.
It is important that the receiving-generating cells are autonomous and can
work independently of each other.

[rruvim]

ROFAR, unlike AFAR, is very compact. It's about the principle ...

[rruvim]

ROFAR is a matter of technology. It cannot be as secret as a concept. Only software can be classified.

[rruvim]

You, as it were, "bombard" the object not with radio waves, but with quantum particles, and in a certain wavelength range. But there was always a problem: how to decipher the "answer"? Our programmers did a great job with this! Give a visual image of the object.

[voyaka uh]

No photons, no quantum particles ROFAR sends
to the enemy plane.
The device that sends out light particles is called a LASER.
The same beloved radio waves are sent by ROFAR. In the range
wider: from sub-millimeter to decimeter wavelengths.
But these radio waves are generated - with the help of photons, that is, lasers.
----
Do not confuse with lidar, a well-known and widespread instrument.
Here, objects are irradiated with lasers. A Prog. Obes. on returned
signals creates a 3-D image of the object. But lidar works at 3-5 km

[The eye of the crying]

Quote: rruvim

You kind of "bombard" the object not with radio waves but with quantum particles,

Photon is a quantum of electromagnetic radiation. Any radar (and lidar too) sends it. It just doesn't work any other way.

[rruvim]

True, there is one weak link in the ROFARA radar station. On a catch-up course, an enemy aircraft can drop a special aerosol.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: rruvim

True, there is one weak link in the ROFARA radar station. On a catch-up course, an enemy aircraft can drop a special aerosol.

Graphene-based aviation fuel additives are already being tested in one army in the world.

Based on the results of the initial testing, it is believed that all systems, current and planned, that will monitor the Stealths, according to the concomitant feature in the form of air disturbance from the operation of turbines, will have to jump in the planned sensitivity by 2-3 orders of magnitude ...
Which is extremely difficult to implement, given that now traces of conventional exhaust are difficult to detect ...

[Mimino]

We'll see how it goes on.

[Maks1995]

And before they wrote that all this is garbage, but now it is doubly garbage.
Stealth is a thing of the past, aircraft carriers are a thing of the past, tanks are a thing of the past - all this has already happened.

We need specifics .... how cool the lazar radar is.

[yfast]

As I understand it, a specialist in photonics and laser technology. What is wrong, explain what the problems are

"This is, in fact, a prototype of a radar based on ROFAR"

"This is a conventional AFAR (Active Phased Antenna Array) operating in the microwave range, like other structurally similar radars.
The only difference is that some of the signal transmission paths inside such a radar are made using optical cables and an optical signal processing path with an ultra-wide bandwidth. But the PPMs themselves (Receiving and Transmitting Modules) of the antenna array both worked in the microwave range and still work. Only now, such a radar has an optical power supply for its elements, instead of microwave power. But optical signals are still converted into microwave radiation, with which the radar's antenna array works. "

ROFAR, it turns out, already exists - this is AFAR with the replacement of a part of the microwave path with optical fibers for energy efficiency. And here we are talking about a prototype of what is already there without a prototype.
Also, if you make a mixer of two required frequencies of laser beams, you can get a high-quality microwave signal.

[rruvim]

Exactly! Bravo!

[The eye of the crying]

But in reality there is only a demonstrator. Who knows what.

[AML]

Quote: _Ugene_

not the disturbances are investigated, but the RADIO WAVE REFLECTED FROM THE OBJECT, if, roughly speaking, nothing is reflected or is reflected at the level of natural interference, then what is the point of talking about super-duper processing of the reflected signal?

Hmm, oh how. I understand that there will be no further narration on how it works. Although they could condescend to a simple layman, and sprinkle a little with technical terms - resonance, polarization, Huygens elements, antenna array, etc. It will be difficult for us, but we will google it. We can even master the package. So we sorted out the diffs of the 3rd order. You can start from afar. With a description of how PFAR differs from AFAR

[AML]

Quote: yfast

As I understand it, a specialist in photonics and laser technology. What is wrong, explain what the problems are

"This is, in fact, a prototype of a radar based on ROFAR"

"This is a conventional AFAR (Active Phased Antenna Array) operating in the microwave range, like other structurally similar radars.
The only difference is that some of the signal transmission paths inside such a radar are made using optical cables and an optical signal processing path

What a gloom. The grid is the grid, conventionally, the matrix of N emitters. How a signal is supplied and removed to it is the second thing. AFAR differs from PFAR in that the emitters are controllable, which means that you can conditionally break one mirror into a bunch of mirrors, each of which can look in different directions. To sort this stuff out, you need normal mathematics. PAR is not tied to the range and can even be low frequency. Frequencies climb upwards to reduce the size, therefore operation in the microwave range is a problem of the geometric dimensions of the aircraft, and not the technology itself. All. No magic.

Look at how single photons are generated in accelerators and the question of the applicability of photons will disappear by itself. Well, you can still look at Wikipedia and understand that we do not know anything about photons, as about elementary particles. For what is in theory is comparable to an owl stretched over a globe.

[AML]

Quote: _Ugene_

not the disturbances are investigated, but the RADIO WAVE REFLECTED FROM THE OBJECT, if, roughly speaking, nothing is reflected or is reflected at the level of natural interference, then what is the point of talking about super-duper processing of the reflected signal?

All existing radars work on reflection, there is nothing fundamentally new in this method. Even for traffic cops, hair dryers operate on the Doppler effect.

Take a jpg image (instant image + convolution), set the vectorizer and get the outlines of the object. Even if there is a complete absorption of the signal.