Military Review

Half of the missiles missed the target: the web is disappointed by the shooting at the "Army-2020"

274

At the Army-2020 forum, several Russian tanks demonstrated the firing of tank guided missiles at stationary targets in range conditions. There were both offensive misses and accurate hits.


In the video that appeared on the Web, we see (presented below) how the T-90A tank occupies a position. The first launch of a tank guided missile ends with an undershoot, the second missile also misses the target, but the third launch turns out to be more successful - the missile hits a stationary target. In total, we get 2 misses and 1 hit.

Then we see a T-80U tank in position. For some reason, the barrel of the gun is shaking violently at the tank, after the launch of the 9M119M TUR, you can see how the rocket goes up. The second launch is the same situation, but the third launch, like that of the T-90A, turns out to be successful. That is, the results are similar - 2 misses and 1 hit out of 3 starts.

In position - the T-80UE-1 tank. The first missile goes up, and the second and third hit the targets. A total of 3 starts with 1 miss and 2 hits.

The T-80BVM tank moves into position. All three launches end in misses, although the target, we note, is motionless.

In an amicable way, only the T-72B3 crew showed the real class. All four launches of a tank guided missile ended with hits on the target.


Naturally, such results cannot be impressive. Of the 16 starts, 8 misses are exactly half. And this, we note, in polygon conditions and for stationary targets! What to expect in a much more complex combat situation, where targets will constantly move and the tanks themselves will be under enemy fire?

It is understood that the results of the shooting caused a mixed reaction on the Internet. Disappointment is one of the reactions. Many commentators believe that such shooting results are primarily due to the low level of crew training and expect that everything will be better in the future.

I hope the military will draw conclusions. In general, such events and muddying on disastrous results are useful - they indicate pain points that need to be worked on,

- writes, for example, the user Pro Osipoff.

It is difficult to disagree with him: if the tank crews selected for participation in the demonstration firing were not up to par, then what is the average level of training in the tank units of the Russian army - we can only guess.

And this is already the fifth race of the Tank Biathlon at "ARMI-2020":

274 comments
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  1. Andylw
    Andylw 26 August 2020 11: 43
    18
    show in everything is our motto
    but in reality nothing remains of greatness and power.
    1. Civil
      Civil 26 August 2020 11: 58
      14 th
      Honestly, I have not seen a video in Syria, where tanks used standard missiles. It's like miners on strategists, they should be, but to no avail.
      1. military_cat
        military_cat 26 August 2020 12: 39
        43
        Now they will come up with an acceptable excuse and continue to kick the ox. Military equipment is not like Roskosmos missiles, which are compared daily in terms of the number of launches with the United States, and it is pointless to pretend. When there is no verification of characteristics in practice, everything can be successfully replaced with PR.
        1. Temples
          Temples 26 August 2020 12: 55
          33
          what is the average level of training in the tank units of the Russian army - one can only guess.

          For that there is no hazing. wassat

          The conscript's year of service has an impact.

          And after all, the best were selected for this show.
          1. Kasym
            Kasym 26 August 2020 15: 02
            41
            Most likely, the crews lack skills - there will be one such missile at the cost of a Zhiguli. Apparently, there are few such ammunition in the units. hi
            1. evgeniy.plotnikov.2019mail.ru
              evgeniy.plotnikov.2019mail.ru 28 August 2020 09: 48
              +5
              For decades they have been talking about the cost .. Why? Who is it "cold" or "hot" from this? What is the point in ,, ooh ,, and ,, ooh ,, about the cost? Let's not shoot, learn to use? Let there be MANPADS, ATGMs, rockets for tank guns in the warehouse ...
              “If you don’t want to feed your army, you’ll feed someone else's,” has been known for thousands of years.
              Have capitalism been restored in Russia? Get a smart and stupid, worthless and noisy ,, ,, capitalist army ,,.
              The schedule of classes for the week is a “sheet”, the paper of which would be enough for a whole class of wartime schoolchildren to practice calligraphy.
              Paper for printers flies away in bundles. Purchased at the expense of the personnel of the unit (after all homegrown ,, capitalism ,,, it is, you know, ,, cleverly done ,,). There is no LIFE, there is its image. Tank biathlon? You'd better buy trailers for the aircraft with this money.
              Perhaps Turkey and Egypt are already ahead of the Capitalist Russia in terms of the number of trailers per tank. How will you make the passages in the minefields, experts ,,? Where the snake cannot be used? Where is its use impractical? Where are the command tanks? Where are the well-armored vehicles of the BC delivery? Where are the well-armored battlefield ambulances? How are you going to cover tank units from UAVs? ,, Shilki ,, ,, are over,? Or not? Are they being modernized?
              The void is empty ... But there are female tank crews for show. “Who, what hurts ...” - there is such a saying.
              "The image of life" will not lead to good. How many years have they been milling about in Syria? In small Syria ... How will big Russia be protected?
          2. Voyager
            Voyager 26 August 2020 15: 04
            -2
            But it is written together.
            1. Theodore
              Theodore 26 August 2020 15: 43
              -3
              For the fact that .....
              1. Voyager
                Voyager 26 August 2020 16: 48
                13
                The preposition "for that" is written separately, and the conjunction "but" is written together.
          3. asua164
            asua164 27 August 2020 01: 34
            +3
            Yeah, about hazing for sure: I have a double bass in a forest belt, 2 years old, hanging on a pine tree in the area of ​​the 22nd week ago ... First, in the SOCH, it burned out from the "Zheldorbatovskaya" part, which is located at the other end of the city and rushed to my mother , she works as a kindergarten teacher. The military police came in large numbers, the cleaning women from the housing office were given leaflets to glue on doorways and the like. But they didn't have time to deploy the search measures, the mushroom pickers found the corpse ... So think now what it was, either hazing, or some kind of unrequited love ... I'm still inclined towards the first version
        2. Private-K
          Private-K 26 August 2020 13: 01
          62
          Quote: military_cat
          Now they will come up with an acceptable excuse

          I'm ready to jot down the excuses / reasons for the mistakes right away.
          1. Pay attention to the fact that tanks with old sighting systems still of Soviet design and manufacture on T-80U and T-90A miss the mark. Those. - the old is the old. The new PNK on the T-72B3 worked fine.
          2. Incorrect adjustment-alignment of sighting complexes. Traditionally, the SA and the RA do not pay due attention to this. (For example, normally, one vehicle with equipment for adjusting and adjusting per regiment / brigade. But at least a couple per battalion is needed. By the way, BMPs with advanced FPKs starting from BMP-3 are also fully applicable. There are no dedicated specialists. on tuning.) Errors and inaccuracies in tuning, even on the Biathlon, are unacceptable. In addition, sighting systems need CONSTANT adjustment, in fact - once a day. Especially if the cars are moving and shooting.
          3. Defect in the manufacture of missiles. Or carelessness when storing missiles. Pure speculation. We need to check better. That too, as with PNK, is not done as it should.
          1. Ross xnumx
            Ross xnumx 26 August 2020 13: 19
            83
            Quote: Private-K
            I'm ready to jot down the excuses / reasons for the mistakes right away.

            Ready to sketch on your fan right away.
            1. There is no excuse for replacing the shooting with ceremonial hype and demonstration shows.
            2. Incorrect adjustment of sighting systems is compensated for by immobility of targets and lack of fire resistance (what would then be in a real battle? belay )
            3. Marriage, you say? And why do we need a military representation at enterprises and regulatory bodies in the Ministry of Defense?
            The army should prepare for war, not for parades and shows. soldier
            1. Private-K
              Private-K 26 August 2020 15: 09
              47
              Quote: ROSS 42
              1. There is no excuse for replacing the shooting with ceremonial hype and demonstration shows.

              Right. But the modern "information society" (tm) requires and needs them.
              In addition, tank biathlon has become a kind of demonstrative open test of the true state of affairs. And here he plays a purely positive role.

              Quote: ROSS 42
              Incorrect adjustment of sighting systems is compensated by the immobility of targets and the lack of fire resistance

              Oh no. None of this is compensated. If the PNK setting is incorrect, then the missile / projectile will fly off to the wrong place, regardless of whether the target is moving or not, combat conditions or training grounds.

              Quote: ROSS 42
              3. Marriage, you say? And why do we need a military representation at enterprises and regulatory bodies in the Ministry of Defense?

              Yes, that's what they are.

              Quote: ROSS 42
              The army should prepare for war, not for parades and shows.

              The American SSO received a complete carte blanche for development in 1961 after a model show for President John F. Kennedy. It is not just that their main educational center bears his name. (yes, the Americans were the pioneers of fashion for such beloved window dressings (tm) in the USSR, Russia, etc.)
              Those. - shows are also needed. And, again, I draw your attention: Russian tank biathlon, in addition to the show, has a practical value that is quite obvious. Here, missile departures emerged that no one expected. Openly. You won't smear it, you won't declare it a state secret, you won't stick it under the cloth. They will fix it. Positive? Undoubtedly.

              Well, the holding of military parades is the preservation of at least some charge of brutality in society, unlike gay "parades" in "enlightened" countries.
              1. Dmitry V.
                Dmitry V. 27 August 2020 13: 03
                +4
                Quote: Private-K
                They will fix it. Positive? Undoubtedly


                If only not according to the scheme: punish the innocent, reward those who are not involved ...
              2. tandem
                tandem 28 August 2020 22: 59
                +3
                Americans are showmen from God. They have half of the wins from Hollywood
            2. 72jora72
              72jora72 26 August 2020 17: 02
              -3
              The army should prepare for war, not for parades and shows.
              This is you Shoigu and the Fabulous tell ...
            3. Volder
              Volder 26 August 2020 20: 15
              +2
              Quote: ROSS 42
              1. There is no excuse for replacing the shooting with ceremonial hype and demonstration shows.
              This is not a replacement, but just an addition. It does not interfere.
              1. Earthshaker
                Earthshaker 27 August 2020 14: 28
                +1
                It gets in the way, because preparation for parades replaces the educational process. Instead of a trained specialist, we get an "excellent drill officer".
            4. The comment was deleted.
          2. Yves762
            Yves762 26 August 2020 13: 34
            +4
            Quote: Private-K
            1. Pay attention to the fact that tanks with old sighting systems still of Soviet design and manufacture are missing ...

            The same "Baby" has the probability of hitting a tank 0,7 ... repeat


            Quote: Private-K
            2. Incorrect adjustment-alignment of sighting complexes. Traditionally, the SA and the RA do not pay due attention to this. ...
            ... 3. Marriage in the manufacture of missiles. Or carelessness when storing missiles. ...

            what what what
            The holding of international exhibitions in Russia and the participation of Russian organizations of the defense industry in them contributes to the strengthening of cooperative ties, the promotion of domestic military products to foreign markets.
            -, at such events they don’t muss SO ... soldier


            TOTAL: crying
            1. Private-K
              Private-K 26 August 2020 15: 13
              +7
              Quote: Yves762
              The same "Baby" has a tank hit probability of 0,7.

              And with ser. 1980s, the formal indicator does not fall below 0,88. And sho? And the fact that even the manufacturer is pushing for salvo fire. Type for reliability. For realities are always more crooked than ideal.
            2. Captain Pushkin
              Captain Pushkin 26 August 2020 17: 44
              11
              Quote: Yves762
              The holding of international exhibitions in Russia and the participation of Russian organizations of the defense industry in them contributes to the strengthening of cooperative ties, the promotion of domestic military products to foreign markets.
              -, at such events they don’t muss SO ...

              Alas, they do it. At the exhibition, the Arabs demonstrated firing from a Ka-50 helicopter cannon.
              I don't know the reason, but having shot the entire BC, the pilot never hit the target.
            3. malyvalv
              malyvalv 28 August 2020 22: 24
              0
              The same "Baby" has the probability of hitting a tank 0,7 ...

              Come on .. To achieve such an indicator, Baby needs to train for years. And not only on the simulator. Specialists with such a successful hit rate were in short supply.
              There was a story during the Karabakh conflict when the Armenians had tons of Babies, but only one officer, and then a Russian, shot and hit. All the others had a coefficient of exactly 0.0
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 29 August 2020 09: 19
                +1
                Quote: malyvalv
                The same "Baby" has the probability of hitting a tank 0,7 ...

                Come on .. To achieve such an indicator, Baby needs to train for years. And not only on the simulator. Specialists with such a successful hit rate were in short supply.

                0,7 is the ultimate theoretical probability of hitting such ATGMs, and practically you described everything correctly - you need to constantly train to achieve even this indicator. That is why if after two launches (and even three) the target is hit, then this is a very good result, just many do not understand this, and they fall into hysterics why not from the first shot. Well, it is necessary to take into account the competitive jitters, when a soldier burns out even before they start - this happens even with experienced athletes, so you should not blame everything on the training of fighters.
          3. ccsr
            ccsr 26 August 2020 19: 07
            +2
            Quote: Private-K
            3. Defect in the manufacture of missiles. Or carelessness when storing missiles. Pure speculation. We need to check better. That too, as with PNK, is not done as it should.

            Have you tried to consider the fourth option? For example, even in the air defense forces, where the level of missile technology is an order of magnitude higher, there is a probability of hitting an air target and it is never a unit, but always less. So why for missiles used in tanks, the coefficient of destruction should be "1,0", if this is impossible to achieve even in more complex and reliable systems? So if two missiles are needed to guarantee the destruction of an enemy tank, then the probability of being hit by one missile should be within 0,7, and this is already at the limit for ground forces equipment.
          4. Eug
            Eug 27 August 2020 07: 23
            0
            According to the logic of hitting from the third launch, it turns out that the crews were just prepared - they took into account the errors of the first two and hit the target by the third. I think that you are 100% right, and respect to the crews for hitting with incorrect sights!
          5. qQQQ
            qQQQ 27 August 2020 09: 39
            0
            Quote: Private-K
            Pay attention to the fact that tanks with old sighting systems still of Soviet design and manufacture on the T-80U and T-90A miss the mark. Those. - the old is the old. The new PNK on the T-72B3 worked fine.

            In my opinion, the most competent explanation, which fully explains that the missiles are most likely from the same batch (the probability of their malfunction on old tanks and serviceability on new ones is very low), the level of the gunners is approximately the same, and the aiming system was set up, most likely the same the same specialists. Therefore, I support that on old tanks, just old sighting systems.
        3. figwam
          figwam 26 August 2020 15: 04
          +7
          The probability of hitting such a corrected projectile is 0.7-0.8, this is if the crew is well trained, and for training it is necessary to shoot such a projectile on the simulator and in reality, which costs a couple of million rubles, I don't think the crews had good practical experience.
        4. grossfilin
          grossfilin 27 August 2020 12: 35
          +2
          What are the acceptable excuses? Operators squint? The shooting was carried out managed rockets. So the missiles themselves have nothing to do with it! These are operators who are crooked !!!
      2. Black Colonel
        Black Colonel 28 August 2020 08: 58
        -3
        At the tank biathlon I did not see the crews firing ATGMs. They fired at targets-tanks with conventional shells, at a target-helicopter from the "Kord" shot, at a target-grenade launcher from a paired PKT. All! There were NO other fire exercises! So the article is a CUSTOM FAKE!
        1. vfwfr
          vfwfr 29 August 2020 00: 46
          0
          "ARMY-2020" This is not a tank biathlon, but an exhibition of weapons with demonstrations!
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 26 August 2020 12: 11
      25 th
      Quote: AndyLW
      show in everything is our motto
      but in reality nothing remains of greatness and power.

      In reality, since the sixties, the power of our army has not been determined by tanks, but by missiles of a different class. So do not worry too much that less and less funds are being invested in the development of tanks and tank shells - they will disappear into oblivion, as well as the cavalry carts of the Patriotic War. There will be no tank battles in a future war - this is what we must proceed from.
      1. Andylw
        Andylw 26 August 2020 12: 32
        13 th
        clear armata, breakthroughs and other boomerangs - money down the drain ...
        that's the same pills so pills ...
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 26 August 2020 12: 45
          -2
          Quote: AndyLW
          clear armata, breakthroughs and other boomerangs - money down the drain ...

          There is a huge international market for armored vehicles and therefore we must reckon with this, which is why we must improve tanks and other weapons systems for sale to non-nuclear countries.
          Quote: AndyLW
          that's the same pills so pills ...

          No, they just give our tank builders the opportunity to survive and preserve the production culture in order to be world leaders in the hope of future sales abroad.
          1. Temples
            Temples 26 August 2020 12: 59
            29
            Quote: ccsr
            as well as the cavalry carts of the Patriotic War. There will be no tank battles in a future war - this is what we must proceed from.

            In Syria, the barmaley took over the country in carts.
            Let not on horses, but on Toyota.
            But on ordinary civilian cars.
            We put a machine gun into battle.
            A cart and a hundred years later a cart.

            There is no place in the Syrian war for missiles with nuclear weapons.

            And there is no nuclear weapons in the Donbass.

            Or do these wars not count?
            1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Andylw
            Andylw 26 August 2020 13: 04
            -4
            and if Ukraine launches an attack on the Crimea and Donbass, will we immediately become a Sarmatian? and the whole world will be destroyed?
            and if that's true
            "There will be no tank battles in a future war - this is what we must proceed from."
            then where will they come from
            "future sales abroad."
            1. Uncle Vanya Susanin
              Uncle Vanya Susanin 26 August 2020 13: 33
              +3
              "And if Ukraine launches an attack on the Crimea and Donbass, will we immediately be a Sarmatian?"
              Exactly, immediately on the Pentagon and Washington we zhahn good
          3. Ross xnumx
            Ross xnumx 26 August 2020 13: 27
            13 th
            Quote: ccsr
            No, they just give our tank builders the opportunity to survive and preserve the production culture in order to be world leaders in the hope of future sales abroad.

            Production culture? Yah! It turns out that in production, it is not technical equipment and technologies that are important, but culture ... belay
            Straight from the joke:
            Girl, good afternoon! Sorry to bother you! Do not consider my appeal for rudeness! Would you deign to be so kind and, after giving me a few moments of your precious time, inform ... How do you go to ...?

            laughing
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 26 August 2020 13: 41
              16
              Quote: ROSS 42
              Production culture? Yah! It turns out that in production, it is not technical equipment and technologies that are important, but culture ...

              Generally speaking, the word "culture of production" has always been understood as much as technical equipment, as the ability of personnel to work with high quality on production equipment and understand the most complex documentation. But you can immediately see it and did not stand sideways to the Soviet defense industry, because you did not enter into the meaning of this term, which people from the military-industrial complex know. So it's better to tell jokes, you do it better - you seem to be a specialist in them ...
              1. Ross xnumx
                Ross xnumx 26 August 2020 13: 56
                -3
                Quote: ccsr
                In fact, the word "culture of production" has always been understood as much technical equipment

                Firstly. Actually, in your demonstration speech, you did not touch on these aspects.
                Secondly. One of the main parameters of production culture is technological discipline. The contractor - the employee - is obliged to do everything in strict accordance with the requirements: precisely with those tools, on that equipment, with those techniques that are recorded in the technological process.
                That is why I focused on:
                Quote: ROSS 42
                It turns out that technical equipment and technologies are not important in production

                For it is impossible to create a high-tech product with the help of a crowbar, a sledgehammer and "some kind of mother" (as well as with the help of a file).
                I love jokes. This is the most attractive genre of folk humor, where the very essence of an event, phenomenon, situation is conveyed in a few words and sentences ...
                I understand that my greatcoat was sewn without you ... wassat
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 26 August 2020 14: 03
                  0
                  Quote: ROSS 42
                  Actually, in your demonstration speech, you did not touch on these aspects.

                  Smart people already understood everything, so moderate your ardor.

                  Quote: ROSS 42
                  I understand that my overcoat was sewn without you ..

                  I certainly had nothing to do with your greatcoat - I had enough of mine ...
                2. gsev
                  gsev 27 August 2020 08: 50
                  +2
                  Quote: ROSS 42
                  One of the main parameters of production culture is technological discipline. The performer - the employee - is obliged to do everything in strict accordance with the requirements: with exactly those tools, on that equipment, those techniques that are recorded in the technological process.

                  You simply stated that you were not familiar with real Soviet production (in the post-Soviet, everything only got worse). For example, a worker on the Red Proletarian could read in the technological chart "Check the circuit with a dryglometer." It meant that the workers themselves made a dial indicator based on the call, but removed the sound leaving only vibration. The technologist stupidly wrote down the technological process in accordance with his intellect or technical culture using surveys of workers. At NPO named after Lavochkin, it was written in the technology to drill a 5x5mm square hole with a 5x5mm square drill. In 1998, the product design and technology were sold to Vietnam. The Vietnamese began to scientifically select machines for its manufacture and found out that the tolerances specified in the design for this product are so strict that there are no machines in the world for the manufacture of such precise parts. To the question, let's indicate the real tolerances, because the product has been produced in the USSR and Russia for decades, the answer was received that no one knows with what real tolerances this product is produced.
                3. The comment was deleted.
            2. Captain Pushkin
              Captain Pushkin 26 August 2020 17: 53
              +6
              Quote: ROSS 42
              production culture? Yah! It turns out that in production, it is not technical equipment and technologies that are important, but culture ...

              If you are not familiar with the term "culture of production", then you have not had a chance to visit any decent production, even on excursions.
              Where there is no production culture (knee-deep mud, "curve" metrology, technological flows are organized through the anus, etc.), there will be neither quality nor technical level.
        2. NEOZ
          NEOZ 26 August 2020 13: 50
          -2
          Quote: AndyLW
          money down the drain ...
          that's the same pills so pills ...

          in a neighboring country, too, they like to count how much sawn in our country ... you, by chance, are not from there?
      2. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 26 August 2020 12: 52
        -3
        How much does one missile launch cost? Screams, it is better to give pensioners and children. This is where the legs grow. "Starts" on simulators.
        1. Evgenyevich_3
          Evgenyevich_3 26 August 2020 12: 59
          +4
          Start-up is very expensive. But a failed launch on time is even more expensive. Therefore, let them let them in as they can and when necessary, and not when someone wants to. The fact of the matter is that this is not just "window dressing". Whoever needs it, the one "somewhere out there" makes conclusions))))
          1. Temples
            Temples 26 August 2020 13: 04
            +2
            Quote: Mavrikiy
            How much does one missile launch cost?

            Retirees interfere with a bad shooter. wink

            Is the shooter satisfied with his salary?
            And the commander who trained the shooter was not offended?
            Or did the pensioners also prevent this?
            1. Evgenyevich_3
              Evgenyevich_3 26 August 2020 13: 06
              0
              you misinterpret the thought of this commentator)) this is the commentator's mistake, not yours - he simply does not know how to express thoughts coherently
          2. Ross xnumx
            Ross xnumx 26 August 2020 13: 32
            +4
            Quote: Mavrikiy
            How much does one missile launch cost?

            Quote: Evgenyevich_3
            Start-up is very expensive. But a failed launch on time is even more expensive.

            And how much does the security of the state and the high combat readiness of the Armed Forces cost, where is the ability and ability to repulse an adversary, while remaining alive, is a necessary skill?
            Just don't say about pensioners that they offer to give the defense budget to them ... Look in other corners and in other parasitic structures ...
        2. ccsr
          ccsr 26 August 2020 13: 00
          +8
          Quote: Mavrikiy
          How much does one missile launch cost?

          Expensive of course. But do not forget that the shooting of a certain number of shells is always laid for study, trials and long-term storage. At least that was the case in the SA, and then it was not considered wasteful.
          Quote: Mavrikiy
          Screams, it is better to give pensioners and children.

          As a pensioner, I am not at all against such launches - on the contrary, this is exactly how you can understand how things are in our army.
          1. Evgenyevich_3
            Evgenyevich_3 26 August 2020 13: 07
            +9
            Now at the training ground (and I live on the edge of one of them) there is much more banging than at the end of the 80s ... so there is no other way - only living experience. If the budget pulls - let them continue to rumble, tk. we have no allies except the army and the navy
            1. Ross xnumx
              Ross xnumx 26 August 2020 13: 35
              -6
              Quote: Evgenyevich_3
              Now at the training ground (and I live on the edge of one of them) there is much more banging than at the end of the 80s ... so there is no other way - only living experience.

              Now on a holiday, on business and without business, "salute shooting" bangs like in the 80s "bakhala" imitation on regimental exercises ... belay
            2. Normal ok
              Normal ok 26 August 2020 13: 46
              +8
              Quote: Evgenyevich_3
              Now at the training ground (and I live on the edge of one of them) there is much more banging than at the end of the 80s ... so there is no other way - only living experience. If the budget pulls - let them continue to rumble, tk. we have no allies except the army and the navy

              The article is not about practice firing, but about demonstration firing, where the best crews, on prepared equipment, must demonstrate their skills and the advantages of domestic weapons. And if it all ended in zilch, then the overall situation is very bad.
        3. The comment was deleted.
      3. Evgeny Ivanov_5
        Evgeny Ivanov_5 26 August 2020 12: 53
        -4
        They determined a lot in Chechnya ... Well, then sit at our house and wait for the Third World War, and not get involved in local conflicts.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 26 August 2020 13: 03
          +8
          Quote: Evgeny Ivanov_5
          They identified a lot in Chechnya ...

          Everything that happened in Chechnya was not determined by the tanks, but by the corrupt politicians in Moscow, whom the drunk-president allowed to do whatever he wanted in relation to Chechnya.
          Quote: Evgeny Ivanov_5
          Well, then sit our house and wait for the third world war, and not get into local conflicts.

          This is a very smart decision - for example, I also think that there is no need to climb, but selling weapons to those who need them should be our main task.
      4. Hog
        Hog 26 August 2020 13: 01
        +3
        Quote: ccsr
        Quote: AndyLW
        show in everything is our motto
        but in reality nothing remains of greatness and power.

        In reality, since the sixties, the power of our army has not been determined by tanks, but by missiles of a different class.

        Only I'm afraid these missiles are no better to shoot (if they put them on combat training around and save on everything).
        Quote: ccsr
        There will be no tank battles in a future war

        How they love this phrase, only this war does not come in any way, and those that are without tanks can not do.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 26 August 2020 13: 30
          0
          Quote: Hog
          Only I'm afraid these missiles are no better to shoot (if they put them on combat training around and save on everything).

          You should not be such a pessimist - the modern army is not as bad as some people want, and those who are truly responsible for the security of the Motherland have not put everything into service. Although, of course, capitalism in Russia has greatly changed the attitude towards military service - you cannot argue with that.
          Quote: Hog
          How they love this phrase, but this war does not come in any way,

          So it will not come as long as our Strategic Missile Forces rule in the Russian armed forces - this is the guarantee of peace on Earth.
          1. Hog
            Hog 26 August 2020 21: 36
            0
            Quote: ccsr
            So it will not come as long as our Strategic Missile Forces rule in the Russian armed forces - this is the guarantee of peace on Earth.

            Then the need for tanks will not disappear.
            1. Vladimir Demyanov
              Vladimir Demyanov 27 August 2020 11: 51
              0
              And the battlefield is supported by tanks, engines will blast and armor flashes, through the mud, over the ravines, the station will break through any line of fire ..
            2. ccsr
              ccsr 27 August 2020 12: 48
              -2
              Quote: Hog
              Then the need for tanks will not disappear.

              The need for tanks is decreasing in our army, and this is a natural process. But not all armies of the world have such a level of high-tech weapons as the Russian army, in which tanks, by and large, do not determine anything at all based on our ability to destroy any enemy in the world within 40-60 minutes. But in many countries there are not only border disputed territories, but also often there are anti-government forces waging an internal war and it is for such cases that they need tanks in the first place. Therefore, having such a rich experience in tank building, we simply have to conquer this niche in the sale of weapons and supply armored vehicles to many countries of the world - this is obvious. Based on this, we conclude that tanks as a type of weapon will not disappear in the 21st century, but for our army this technique is no longer relevant and the war with Syria by the Aerospace Forces showed that we can achieve the desired result without introducing tank regiments and tank divisions to other countries ... And we will be able to defend our territory even without tanks - that's a fact. From here, draw a conclusion whether we need tanks or not, and in what quantity.
          2. Old Michael
            Old Michael 26 August 2020 21: 57
            +1
            Quote: ccsr
            capitalism in Russia has greatly changed the attitude towards military service - you cannot argue with that.

            "Changed a lot" - it is poorly said!
            Yesterday, in the comments to the article "On the Difficulties of the Pension Reform", a member of the VO forum with the nickname "KVSK" wrote in bulk to the guardsmen and hangers-on of the oligarchs "VS + FSB + GRU + VV", that is, almost 90% of Russia's military personnel. When I called him scum, he said that he pays multimillion-dollar taxes for the maintenance of people like me (for some reason counting me as a BB), and for this a military conscript once put a butt in his turnip (although I suspect that for a banal rudeness), and since then he sincerely hates everyone who wears shoulder straps (with the exception of the "cop-captain", who did not let the fighter kill this nit).
            So that's what's interesting. For the word "scum" I expected sanctions from the site administration. But they did not follow (yet?). Should we assume that for the insult of all those who devoted their lives to military service to their homeland, no sanctions will happen either?
      5. The comment was deleted.
      6. kventinasd
        kventinasd 26 August 2020 16: 41
        +4
        Quote: ccsr
        In reality, since the sixties, the power of our army has not been determined by tanks, but by missiles of a different class.

        In reality, with such firing rates, in a local war with a more or less serious enemy, these tanks, together with their anti-aircraft cover, will be left with a pile of scrap metal. The Turks have already proved this in Idlib, using far from the most advanced drones. Really, even at demonstration performances, they could not use more advanced missile systems, so as not to cheat on the entire Internet? I have no idea what is going on then in the combat units.
      7. 72jora72
        72jora72 26 August 2020 17: 11
        +3
        There will be no tank battles in a future war - this is what we must proceed from.
        From my own experience, I can say that the presence of armor dramatically increases the survivability of a unit.
      8. Old Michael
        Old Michael 26 August 2020 21: 28
        +2
        ccsr:
        do not worry too much that less and less funds are being invested in the development of tanks and tank shells - they will go into oblivion, as well as cavalry carts

        I do not quite agree with you. But even less agree with the handful of cons weighed out to you.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 27 August 2020 13: 24
          -1
          Quote: OldMichael
          I don’t quite agree with you, but I don’t agree even less with the handful of disadvantages you have weighed out.

          I will not go into a discussion, but there are objective laws of the development of weapons that are not clear to all people, which is why they can give me as many disadvantages as I want, but they will not change the essence of the laws. Historical development suggests that the ratio of the weight of a tank and the striking power of a projectile fired from it is at a very low level, compared even with tactical nuclear weapons used in self-propelled guns - that is why tanks lose to them, not only in caliber, but also in firing range , which means their fate is predetermined. I don't even mention the fact that tanks are vulnerable, difficult to manufacture and require expenses for their movement and maintenance - this is a fact. But all this does not give them advantages over other weapons, including assault aircraft and helicopters, which are much mobile, can move quickly over great distances and in a confrontation with armored vehicles will always come out victorious even in a limited theater of operations. Even multiple launch rocket systems have long had cassettes with striking elements capable of entering the engine compartment from above and for this they do not even need to go out to the line of sight, i.e. tanks will be destroyed without direct combat contact. So what's the point of keeping a large number of tanks in service if their fate is predetermined?
          1. Old Michael
            Old Michael 27 August 2020 15: 48
            +1
            ccsr: So what's the point of keeping a large number of tanks in service if their fate is predetermined?

            Indeed, in today's situation - none (Although there are periodically screams like "without 100500 Armat everything is gone").
            But it is quite possible that the emphasis will again shift, for example, from firepower to increasing security while maintaining mobility, that is, ensuring the ability to act (solve not fire and assault missions, but others) in extremely unfavorable tactical conditions, without remaining completely unarmed ( after all, it was already like that - "quickly and without loss to pass through the scorched earth").
            I don't think it's worth writing off tanks at all. But, of course, it's time to rethink their purpose and, accordingly, the issues of design, production and application, real qualitative and quantitative needs.
          2. tandem
            tandem 28 August 2020 23: 14
            0
            after the invention of machine guns, there was talk that wars would end. Since it is impossible to fight in the rain of bullets. More than a century has passed. AND...
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 29 August 2020 09: 21
              0
              Quote: tandem
              More than a century has passed. AND...

              And there was such a weapon, in comparison with which Hiroshima and Nagasaki are just playing in the sandbox. But you can still think that machine guns or tanks will decide something in modern warfare if we have to fight the most powerful enemy.
    3. Evgenyevich_3
      Evgenyevich_3 26 August 2020 12: 56
      0
      This is not our motto, but your LW motto. ))) We have all the rules with greatness. Its over the edge and envy, LW, silently - so it turns out less stupid
    4. We are for our
      We are for our 26 August 2020 13: 59
      +1
      show in everything is our motto
      but in reality nothing remains of greatness and power.
      We remain only true to old traditions and nothing more. In peacetime, the army plays a parade-show role, so that every housewife, when she sees men in uniform, is imbued with patriotism and pride in the country. And already in wartime, the army was reorganized into a combat-ready formation along the way.
    5. Alekseev
      Alekseev 26 August 2020 17: 42
      +5
      "... in reality ... zilch"
      No need to go to extremes.
      Without a qualified investigation, fabrications from the couch are unnecessary here.
      I can say one thing for sure: firing an ATGM from a tank does not require any special skill, and under these conditions, with serviceable materiel, there should have been a 100% result.
      Perhaps, the preparation of tank armament for firing was entrusted to excellent combat training: "by pull", who, basically, show-off and prepare for parades by the master. It is likely that they attracted conscripts, with them there is less trouble sometimes, whose with contract soldiers trained them a little and
      reported readiness ...
      Or maybe shells of second freshness ..
      In any case, someone has to answer for this, "comfortable positions" will stick and then embarrassment for the whole world will come out ...
    6. Professor
      Professor 26 August 2020 20: 11
      +2
      Quote: AndyLW
      show in everything is our motto
      but in reality nothing remains of greatness and power.

      Yes, if only window dressing, and then a shame. Best the crew of the Eastern V district, at a distance of 1700 m could not hit RED target. And twice. request

    7. Sveet Ku
      Sveet Ku 26 August 2020 21: 17
      0
      At t-biathlon, simple tasks are not given and they do not play giveaways. The shooting conditions there are such that it is really difficult to get there. That's why he is a tank biathlon.
      Get off the couch to school soon, experts ..
    8. ljoha_d
      ljoha_d 26 August 2020 22: 53
      -3
      I fully support you lately, they have turned their nose up a lot, a lot of show. Less words more action, as it used to be !!!!
    9. bashir141
      bashir141 26 August 2020 23: 00
      0
      But you're a sniper. Internet only.
    10. krillon
      krillon 26 August 2020 23: 49
      0
      It would be interesting to hear the tankers how many times during their service they had to use rockets in firing. When I was in my service, mastering the qualifications of an RPG-7 grenade launcher, they fired cartridges through the insert, after that with blanks, it did not reach the charges themselves, perhaps they were considered wasteful. And in the network there is a photo where during the war our gunners screwed a three-line gun to the barrel of a 76 mm cannon, learning in this way. I believe that although the missiles are included in the list of tank weapons, the main emphasis is on firing shells, the missiles are more exotic.
    11. jeka424
      jeka424 27 August 2020 13: 42
      0
      The main thing is to say a weapon that has no analogues in the world)))))))
  2. Thrifty
    Thrifty 26 August 2020 11: 43
    26
    This is a show, where there should be no jambs! And, then, what are the results of the shooting at the ranges, or are they in electronic form?
    1. Evgenyevich_3
      Evgenyevich_3 26 August 2020 13: 00
      -2
      "seems to" is a couch thinking ... the results of the shooting are always different and not without incident. believe that everything is taken into account by whom and where it is necessary ... this is not a booger in the cold from your nose to pick and crack
  3. Pavel73
    Pavel73 26 August 2020 11: 44
    +2
    This is a military trick before the decisive races!;)
  4. Alexga
    Alexga 26 August 2020 11: 44
    22
    then what is the average level of training in the tank units of the Russian army - we can only guess.

    From personal experience, the gunner has not yet made about 1000 training launches on the simulator, he was not allowed to a combat launch.
    1. lucul
      lucul 26 August 2020 11: 59
      +2
      From personal experience, the gunner has not yet made about 1000 training launches on the simulator, he was not allowed to a combat launch.

      Reduced service life nowhere else)))
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 26 August 2020 12: 48
        12
        Quote: lucul
        Reduced service life nowhere else)))

        I think that conscripts have no place at all in the crew of a tank - there should only be contract soldiers and at least not first term.
        1. Evgenyevich_3
          Evgenyevich_3 26 August 2020 13: 02
          +4
          correct judgment, but do not forget that a fighter's personal qualities are often defining. another conscript "from the mountain" can surpass "grandfathers" with many years of experience in six months simply because it can ... well, that's just the way nature is arranged - for this, all these selections and the institute of veterancy are needed
        2. DominickS
          DominickS 27 August 2020 12: 27
          -1
          But where can you find so many contractors, and even those who agree to spend the devil knows how much time in a pyromaniac?
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 27 August 2020 12: 57
            +2
            Quote: DominickS
            But where can you find so many contractors,

            This issue is resolved by increasing the salary and various benefits for servicemen associated with sophisticated military equipment and weapons, when the same tank crew member will receive more than other categories of ground forces.
            Quote: DominickS
            and even willing to spend the devil knows how much time in a pyromaniac?

            Turning the steering wheel as a taxi driver in Moscow is also not very pleasant all day long in the summer, when there are no prospects, and the years go by and you have to earn a pension. So, not everything is so sad with the contingent for tank forces - you just have to pay more and solve the issue of housing for all categories of servicemen, and then believe the competition and the contract soldiers will be.
        3. Aag
          Aag 27 August 2020 13: 52
          0
          Quote: ccsr
          Quote: lucul
          Reduced service life nowhere else)))

          I think that conscripts have no place at all in the crew of a tank - there should only be contract soldiers and at least not first term.

          And where will he hang out "the first term"?
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 27 August 2020 14: 07
            +1
            Quote: AAG
            And where will he hang out "the first term"?

            In service units or in other positions in tank formations. And only then, on the second contract, testing and selection for further training as a member of the tank's crew - that's how I see it. Then at least it will be possible to predict how much a person has decided to associate himself with the army, so as not to waste the resource of equipment and not to waste the equipment for training conscripts, but to prepare a professional for many years of service.
    2. Shuttle
      Shuttle 26 August 2020 12: 11
      +3
      Quote: AlexGa
      then what is the average level of training in the tank units of the Russian army - we can only guess.

      From personal experience, the gunner has not yet made about 1000 training launches on the simulator, he was not allowed to a combat launch.

      Well, just killed. In 87-88 in Belarus, in the training course for the Stove, I began to shoot practical people after about 20-30 rounds of loose rounds. I didn’t launch rockets, but I don’t think that it’s necessary 1000 times.
      1. Alexga
        Alexga 26 August 2020 12: 15
        0
        I didn’t launch rockets, but I don’t think that it’s necessary 1000 times.

        The question is about guided missile launches.
        1. Shuttle
          Shuttle 26 August 2020 14: 25
          +2
          Quote: AlexGa
          The question is about guided missile launches.

          If such a long preparation is really required, then in the event of a global nix, our tankers risk being trapped in the same professional trap as Panzerfaff. By the beginning of the Second World War, their practical combat training was somehow higher than that of most Soviet tankers who opposed them in the initial period of the war. A large number were lost right in the early days of the war. But over time, the USSR made up for the gap by deploying the broadest training. But the Germans are gone. It took a lot of time to get ready. Soviet tanks were not only more practical and cheaper to manufacture, but also easier to learn.
          I am sure that even now, after three decades, I can easily not only be able to quite effectively hit targets from the T-72 at the range myself, but I can teach others just as well.
          We were very surprised by the "Reflex" shooting.
      2. dgonni
        dgonni 26 August 2020 12: 38
        -2
        T-64B / 64BV? Running to and from the bathhouse? ;)
      3. seregatara1969
        seregatara1969 26 August 2020 12: 57
        0
        The rockets are expensive and they are not used much in practice; an inset shot is much cheaper.
      4. Alexga
        Alexga 26 August 2020 17: 31
        0
        Quote: Shuttle
        In 87-88 in Belarus, in the training course for the Stove, I began to shoot practical people after about 20-30 shots with an insert

        Have you already got T-72Bs by these years?
    3. Hagen
      Hagen 26 August 2020 12: 12
      +1
      Quote: AlexGa
      From personal experience, the gunner has not yet made about 1000 training launches on the simulator, he was not allowed to a combat launch.

      Do you still remember "Baby"?
      1. Alexga
        Alexga 26 August 2020 12: 18
        +1
        Do you still remember "Baby"?

        No, we are talking about 9K119. I have known her since January 1984, have you?
        1. Hagen
          Hagen 26 August 2020 12: 38
          +2
          Quote: AlexGa
          No, we are talking about 9K119. I have known her since January 1984, have you?

          I did several 9k14 electronic launches on the BMP-1 laughing All past laughing in the year 1982 ... I did not make practical launches and did not teach gunner-operators on ATGMs ... More and more I was "fond of" pest mechanics ... laughing Actually, I'm surprised by such a volume of training on ATGMs of the 2nd generation. It's not that simple with the Babies. It is necessary to control the rocket manually, which is done by automatic equipment on reflex. I know that "little ones" are allowed to start practical after 1500 electronic launches. It is necessary to sweat, but I saw how virtuosos shoot at the roof of the tower. Like in a circus. You can collect money for watching laughing
        2. Hagen
          Hagen 26 August 2020 12: 45
          +5
          Quote: AlexGa
          No, we are talking about 9K119

          If it's not a secret, what are the difficulties of shooting. I don’t think that barmaley have such a mass of simulators, but they get from TOY-2 (on YouTube) ...
          1. Alexga
            Alexga 26 August 2020 13: 03
            +7
            The whole problem is the lack of normal simulators. There are practically none of them in the troops, mainly in training manuals. I resigned in 2002, in my regiment in the training building there were tank simulators only for driver mechanics and a split simulator with AZ. What I saw in Pecs can also only be conditionally considered that it is possible to teach someone on this. In 1994, I had a simulator from the Tula Design Bureau with a military lieutenant who could sign a missile in the air. But there are only a few. It was on VI, we were the first to launch such missiles, the rest had radio command Cobras. I had a regular company, the gunners had no idea how to control the missile in the air, so they crawled out of the KUNG for days with a simulator. One made launches, and the rest watched on the big screen. It is difficult to shoot from the trench, after exiting the barrel, the rocket sags before the main engine is turned on and often lies on the ground. What is the difficulty? You need constant training to maintain skills, but there is no opportunity. And in the post-Soviet period with these reforms in the army, it is still surprising that the army survived.
            1. Hagen
              Hagen 26 August 2020 13: 33
              +1
              Quote: AlexGa
              What is the difficulty? You need constant training to maintain skills, but there is no opportunity.

              I remember when I was a cadet, we studied the half-breed with the bassoon and lay behind the launcher. The whole difficulty was to accompany the target with the help of eccentric handles vert. and horiz. guidance. The automation itself kept the rocket in the line of sight. With the help of a "crystal" (electric guidance drive in the BMP-1), writing a curve along the stand with the central cross of the sight requires training .... Manual tracking, as, for example, on an armored personnel carrier, is somewhat easier ...
              1. Alexga
                Alexga 26 August 2020 16: 09
                +1
                The whole difficulty was to accompany the target with the help of the eccentric handles vert. and horiz. guidance.

                I confess that for all the time I have never seen an ATGM launch from the ground, and how the operator manages to aim at the target with eccentrics is beyond comprehension!
                1. Hagen
                  Hagen 26 August 2020 16: 32
                  0
                  Quote: AlexGa
                  and how the operator manages to aim at the target with eccentrics is beyond comprehension!



                  There are two handles on the launcher. One is horizontal guidance, the other is vertical. Sit down and turn. It's simple ...
                  1. Alexga
                    Alexga 26 August 2020 16: 47
                    +2
                    It's easier to twist the Cheburashka. And somehow it's calmer behind the armor. I had the pleasure of serving in a motorized rifle battalion for a couple of years, though after the collapse of the Soviet Union, so launches were done only with BMPs. But the battalion had a T-72b company. It was a period of parting with the brigade organization.
            2. Alexga
              Alexga 26 August 2020 20: 21
              0
              In 1994 year

              Sorry, in 1984.
          2. Boratsagdiev
            Boratsagdiev 26 August 2020 13: 03
            +1
            they only post hits, they get paid for it.
            Believe me, they have enough misses too.
            1. Hagen
              Hagen 26 August 2020 13: 35
              +1
              Quote: BoratSagdiev
              they only post hits,

              Obviously yes ...
            2. cat Rusich
              cat Rusich 26 August 2020 20: 53
              0
              Borat, I heard (read on the Internet) that the "bearded" units created along the way special units of "tank destroyers" (from ATGM) - gained "experience", almost "professional" and began to "tour" along the entire front. We worked for different "grouping units", received $ piece-work, they also had mistakes, but much less often. Conclusion - study + practice + material interest - an excellent result and practical saving of "consumables".
              1. Boratsagdiev
                Boratsagdiev 29 August 2020 13: 33
                0
                It is clear that the installation is not distributed to everyone, but it hardly comes to that. but just like hit-and-run hitmen.
                1. cat Rusich
                  cat Rusich 29 August 2020 21: 26
                  0
                  Borat, I read an article on the Internet, I don't remember where. About the Karabakh war - there it was written about a detachment of "pturists" with an ATGM Malyutka, they fought for the Armenians, there were only Russians in the detachment - because they knew how to "work with Malyutki" ... So the appearance of separate detachments using weapons "difficult for local warriors" not news. The credibility of any such messages - "on the faith of the reader" ... or personal acquaintance with a "participant in the events."
                  1. Boratsagdiev
                    Boratsagdiev 29 August 2020 23: 36
                    0
                    Well, again, "individual" and, as it were, "Special detachments" - this is no longer practice and not a broad case.
                    And so, in life a lot is possible, almost everything.
    4. svp67
      svp67 26 August 2020 12: 25
      +6
      hi
      Quote: AlexGa
      From personal experience, the gunner has not yet made about 1000 training launches on the simulator, he was not allowed to a combat launch.

      Not my fault, but I am ashamed. I see that most of the operators are not trained, the equipment is poorly prepared ...
      Well, how's that? Invited people to be so disgraced in front of the whole world? I don't understand this attitude.
      1. Alexga
        Alexga 26 August 2020 12: 35
        +2
        I see that most of the operators are not trained, the equipment is poorly prepared ...

        It looks like the gunner doesn't care. Usually the equipment is checked and prepared for such events very seriously.
        1. svp67
          svp67 26 August 2020 12: 52
          +6
          Quote: AlexGa
          It looks like the gunner doesn't care.

          There seems to be something systemic ... in terms of preparation.
          1. Alexga
            Alexga 26 August 2020 13: 05
            +2
            There seems to be something systemic ... in terms of preparation.

            Yes, for a tanker an offensive sight!
          2. Boratsagdiev
            Boratsagdiev 26 August 2020 13: 07
            0
            Systemic is when it is deeper (of a wide range).
            In principle, it is. Starting from the screws produced and ending with what the personnel eats and where they sleep (I no longer write about management, etc.).
            And for some reason, many do not take into account the possibility that equipment and missiles can be "slightly smelly", as well as the percentage of "no operation".
            But here this "percentage" goes off scale.
      2. Mountain shooter
        Mountain shooter 26 August 2020 12: 45
        -2
        Quote: svp67
        Well, how's that? Invited people to be so disgraced in front of the whole world?

        Ears are also burning. Although not involved ... Wow, Shoigu is a tough guy ... I can imagine "debriefing"!
        1. Old tanker
          Old tanker 26 August 2020 17: 49
          +3
          All evil, formalism, window dressing and work on photo reports instead of combat training in the army from him. Also before that, he created with the Ministry of Emergencies.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 26 August 2020 19: 18
            +2
            Quote: Old Tankman
            All evil, formalism, window dressing and work on photo reports instead of combat training in the army from him. Also before that, he created with the Ministry of Emergencies.

            I think that this biathlon is carried out primarily from a commercial point of view, attracting more and more crews from countries that are potential buyers of our armored vehicles. It has nothing to do with reflecting the real situation in the troops, just as the Swifts aerobatic team does not reflect the combat capabilities of the pilots on duty in our air regiments.
      3. Evgenyevich_3
        Evgenyevich_3 26 August 2020 13: 04
        -1
        when you experience this "Spanish shame", then you actually judge by yourself - it is important to understand ... if you sit down at the levers of the tank, then (later, if you survive) you will be ashamed
        1. Mountain shooter
          Mountain shooter 26 August 2020 18: 56
          +4
          Quote: Evgenyevich_3
          when you experience this "Spanish shame", then you actually judge by yourself - it is important to understand ... if you sit down at the levers of the tank, then (later, if you survive) you will be ashamed

          I had the best battery ever! And I was not ashamed of the results of the shooting. I'm not a tanker, but an ATGM. To smear with current ones - it's not at all clear how. Or is the equipment faulty? Also a cant ...
        2. svp67
          svp67 26 August 2020 21: 46
          +2
          Quote: Evgenyevich_3
          you will sit at the levers of the tank, then (later, if you survive) and be ashamed

          What are you talking about? ”I sat down more than once at the levers, at the steering wheels, and in this case I have no complaints about the drivers, they skated without any special remarks.
          I have big complaints about how the gunners were trained and the equipment was prepared. Perhaps it is worth reminding once again that the TUS (guided tank projectile) is very expensive, in Soviet times its cost was compared with the cost of a new Zhiguli car. And so, it is mediocre, in front of foreigners to spend them now ... We are already under pressure on the TUS market by the Ukrainians and Chinese, and here is such "anti-advertising"
  5. paco.soto
    paco.soto 26 August 2020 11: 45
    +7
    My neutral opinion: I saw a cut from this video yesterday. Everything was ruined by a "professional"
    commentator. You need to drive him into radio commentators.
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 26 August 2020 12: 31
      +6
      Quote: paco.soto
      Everything was ruined by a "professional"
      commentator

      Come on. A normal journalist. Today, there was a pearl in the news on RenTV."When there was no electricity, trolleybuses were the only means of transport that could carry goods ..." It was a story about trolleybuses during the Great Patriotic War when the Germans approached Moscow. Well, recently one radio commentator generally said that today, on December 24, a short rain is expected in the city, the air temperature is + 21 ...
      1. paco.soto
        paco.soto 26 August 2020 12: 46
        +2
        I agree with you, but! - this "ghost commentator" turned the always existing technical glitches into burlesque here.
        1. ANB
          ANB 26 August 2020 22: 36
          +2
          On the first day, he announced that T-34-87 tanks were leaving. Corrected only after 5 minutes. And there are plenty of other blunders.
          A question for tank connoisseurs: is the stabilization system or the FCS controlling the cannon on the tank?
          1. paco.soto
            paco.soto 27 August 2020 11: 58
            0
            Let me give you a link on the tank's LMS:
            https://www.google.es/amp/integral-russia.ru/2019/07/26/sistema-upravleniya-ognem-tanka-istoriya-i-sovremennye-otechestvennye-resheniya-chast-7/amp/?espv=1
  6. Alexey from Perm
    Alexey from Perm 26 August 2020 11: 45
    +3
    "ricocheting, hitting the tank" - great, the journalist is changing the helmets))) it's very funny to watch how he dodges, over a terrible stream, I wonder, are these crews or missiles?
    1. strelokmira
      strelokmira 26 August 2020 11: 50
      +1
      I wonder are these crews or missiles?

      Well, whatever you want, all over the world already 3 generation ATGMs with homing are used. Obviously, automation in a battle / training ground will show itself better than a one-year-old crew
      1. Fibrizio
        Fibrizio 26 August 2020 12: 21
        +5
        And where did the information come from that conscripts were speaking? I strongly doubt that.
        1. seregin-s1
          seregin-s1 26 August 2020 12: 51
          +4
          The commentator said about the conscripts.
    2. Old tanker
      Old tanker 26 August 2020 17: 47
      +2
      Most likely rockets. A working rocket at a stationary target from the spot to hit at all no work. I doubt that the tanks were brought to the line unprepared.
      1. Alexey from Perm
        Alexey from Perm 31 August 2020 23: 25
        0
        I doubt even more that there were unprepared "crews"))
  7. truck driver
    truck driver 26 August 2020 11: 46
    +2
    The road will be mastered by the walker, sometimes criticism can serve as a pusher of progress!)
  8. Holgerton
    Holgerton 26 August 2020 11: 47
    0
    Spanish shame.
  9. Grazdanin
    Grazdanin 26 August 2020 11: 47
    +6
    Fascist did not deceive, 50 to 50
  10. Well done
    Well done 26 August 2020 11: 54
    +3
    "Guided missile? How manageable? There are tankers in the "snipe" or missiles like that?
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 26 August 2020 17: 30
      +2
      Both tankers and missiles are of the same quality.
      1. Well done
        Well done 26 August 2020 17: 40
        +1
        It's a shame for the Power. And the crews were highly praised for TC "Zvezda". If they are the best, how do ordinary, rank-and-file tankers shoot? Or maybe a paradox - ordinary people shoot better than publicized ones? A muddy story.
  11. master 52
    master 52 26 August 2020 11: 55
    0
    this is how they showed what excellent T-72B3 tanks they say are even better than the T-90A, everyone needs to buy them, that's all
  12. New Year day
    New Year day 26 August 2020 11: 55
    +6
    And in war, for the second or third time, the adversary will shoot? I think that the forum brought together the best crew.
    1. Grazdanin
      Grazdanin 26 August 2020 12: 02
      0
      Considering modern electronic systems and flight speeds, the enemy projectile will arrive before our first missile reaches. We should not forget about interference and KAZ, to which the missiles are extremely sensitive. The principle of such missile armament on tanks is a moot point. The United States and most "Western" countries do not put them into service, although they do have them. In metal, tested, ready for serial production.
      1. Old tanker
        Old tanker 26 August 2020 17: 44
        0
        The interference of modern TOUR is not so bad. They follow the laser beam. Here a special aerosol curtain rules against them.
    2. Normal ok
      Normal ok 26 August 2020 14: 03
      +4
      Quote: Silvestr
      And in war, for the second or third time, the adversary will shoot? I think that the forum brought together the best crew.

      When in the first year they shot on a direct find, hitting a target with the 3rd shot meant a deuce and a retake. Since you have already unmasked yourself and, with a high probability, a response is already flying.
    3. Vadim237
      Vadim237 26 August 2020 17: 31
      +2
      Whoever is the first to discover who is the first to destroy - unfortunately, these funds in the West are much more than we have.
  13. Trapp1st
    Trapp1st 26 August 2020 11: 56
    +6
    the position is occupied by the T-90A tank. The first launch of a tank guided missile ends in undershoot
    And three corpses complete the morning landscape.
  14. KCA
    KCA 26 August 2020 11: 57
    +1
    As I understand it, the SDs were the same, the military prosecutor's office, I think, will dig into what kind of batch it was, when it was released and how the state acceptance took place, 8 SDs are thousands under $ 100000, on an especially large scale
    1. Andy
      Andy 26 August 2020 12: 03
      +9
      this problem is several years old. as soon as biathlon came out on TV screens. smeared ur scary. then at international competitions this shooting was removed. things are still there - or crooked hands or missiles
      1. New Year day
        New Year day 26 August 2020 12: 05
        +5
        Quote: Andy
        or crooked hands or rockets

        And what if both at the same time?
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 26 August 2020 17: 32
      +2
      A reflex of 500-600 rubles is definitely worth it.
      1. surok1
        surok1 1 September 2020 05: 58
        0
        A cannon projectile, even an adjustable one, is a massive thing. It stupidly due to the series should cost less.
    3. Old tanker
      Old tanker 26 August 2020 17: 42
      0
      Rockets must be checked at the control point before firing. And this is not counting the regulations in due time. So the state acceptance may have nothing to do with it.
  15. fn34440
    fn34440 26 August 2020 12: 16
    +9
    Surely they selected the best of the best, excellent combatants.
    But what about the rest?
    1. Revival
      Revival 26 August 2020 12: 24
      +6
      The rest do not shoot at all))
  16. rocket757
    rocket757 26 August 2020 12: 23
    +2
    Good to teach, it is usually EXPENSIVE!
    A simple question, those who are cutting funds for training, I am sure that our military do not need these skills ???
    Difficult \ simple ... greed in such a matter, will not lead to good !!!
    1. vvvjak
      vvvjak 26 August 2020 12: 39
      11
      Here on VO there was a comment from one tanker (it is simply not realistic to find the original recording), so he claimed that in 20 years of service in the tank forces of the UR, he had not seen it. True or not, but the results of the firing of the best crews rather confirm his words.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 26 August 2020 12: 48
        +1
        They taught how to shoot from an RPG, very "economically" ... then on the spot they taught it for real, because it WAS NECESSARY!
      2. Alexga
        Alexga 26 August 2020 17: 02
        +1
        Vladimir, now they shoot controlled only at exercises of the BTU level. As a rule, only one platoon shoots. The pleasure is terribly expensive. Yes, and high-explosive fragmentation is also an expensive business. But the ammunition from our 9 tank divisions, stockpiled in arsenals and warehouses, will not last long.
        1. krillon
          krillon 27 August 2020 00: 08
          0
          And then what is the use of super-duper missiles if the crews cannot use them .. I think this is the case in artillery. "Krasnopol" also costs no less, bang in front of the authorities, then wait for the adversary.
      3. Old tanker
        Old tanker 26 August 2020 17: 40
        +1
        True truth. I saw them in my tank only in the first Chechnya, and then only for show there were launches. So I also saw it because I served in a flashy division.
    2. Boratsagdiev
      Boratsagdiev 26 August 2020 13: 10
      +1
      Quote: rocket757
      Good to teach, it is usually EXPENSIVE!

      Expensive doesn't mean good either.
      A striking example is civil aviation. The Tray Boy can easily become a pilot.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 26 August 2020 13: 29
        0
        And this is already a violation of rules, laws ... to put it simply, a CRIME!
  17. Revival
    Revival 26 August 2020 12: 24
    +1
    And this is a kind of signal flares!)))
    Like I'm here, if anyone hasn't noticed))
  18. Kelwin
    Kelwin 26 August 2020 12: 48
    0
    Fig, all three flew away to the line) And what will happen to her next, is there self-destruction there, or will it trample while there is fuel and will shy away upon arrival?)
  19. APASUS
    APASUS 26 August 2020 13: 02
    +5
    As I understand it, the pros are involved, but how are our conscripts trained then? That they will be able to understand and learn there in a year!
    1. We are for our
      We are for our 26 August 2020 13: 37
      -1
      In peacetime, conscripts were never considered a combat unit. They know how to march and paint the grass green, and okay.
      1. APASUS
        APASUS 26 August 2020 15: 22
        +6
        Quote: We are for our
        In peacetime, conscripts were never considered a combat unit. They know how to march and paint the grass green, and okay.

        I probably lived in some other country ...............
  20. 2 Level Advisor
    2 Level Advisor 26 August 2020 13: 04
    -1
    Quote: ccsr
    Quote: AndyLW
    show in everything is our motto
    but in reality nothing remains of greatness and power.

    In reality, since the sixties, the power of our army has not been determined by tanks, but by missiles of a different class. So do not worry too much that less and less funds are being invested in the development of tanks and tank shells - they will disappear into oblivion, as well as the cavalry carts of the Patriotic War. There will be no tank battles in a future war - this is what we must proceed from.


    So it’s more about combat training, something I don’t understand, 50% hitting the target by one of the most trained tank crews of the RF Armed Forces, and a score of "3" in firing is okay and you can not worry? what then will the average crew have?
    or it doesn't matter because there is the Strategic Missile Forces, well, let's just leave them alone, then why do we need other types of the Armed Forces?
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 26 August 2020 19: 23
      -2
      Quote: Level 2 Advisor
      or it doesn't matter because there is the Strategic Missile Forces, well, let's just leave them alone, then why do we need other types of the Armed Forces?

      This is exactly what happens - only the strategic nuclear forces are saving us, otherwise we would have long followed the path of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
      Tanks in a future war, if it takes place, we will not need at all - we knew this even in the Soviet Army.
  21. tlauicol
    tlauicol 26 August 2020 13: 07
    +8
    About 20 years ago, at the Shilovsky training ground, I observed the same picture - the examination of tank crew commanders. Only there were rockets with an inert warhead and somersaults ricocheted against the ground in all sorts of directions, just not at the target. ... I thought a lot recourse
  22. _Ugene_
    _Ugene_ 26 August 2020 13: 13
    +9
    Many commentators believe that such shooting results are primarily due to the low level of crew training and expect that everything will be better in the future.
    the crews here are the best of the best, this speaks of the effectiveness of the method of aiming the rocket itself, here it is clearly necessary to change something
    but I could not understand why the sofa experts always admire this rocket and the absence of it in the Abrams, and knowledgeable people were very skeptical about it, now it is clear, fuck you will get this rocket
  23. Lumpen
    Lumpen 26 August 2020 13: 16
    +8
    Awful (I know what about) advertising of Russian weapons at the INTERNATIONAL exhibition for a foreign buyer !!!
  24. sergo1914
    sergo1914 26 August 2020 13: 29
    0
    A guided missile is a bastard. They had to give them ordinary blanks. Everyone would have hit.
    1. iouris
      iouris 26 August 2020 13: 32
      0
      Quote: sergo1914
      A guided missile is a bastard. They had to give them the usual blanks.

      A bullet is a fool! The bayonet is great! (A. Suvorov "The Science of Winning")
      1. sergo1914
        sergo1914 26 August 2020 13: 33
        +1
        Quote: iouris
        Quote: sergo1914
        A guided missile is a bastard. They had to give them the usual blanks.

        A bullet is a fool! The bayonet is great! (A. Suvorov "The Science of Winning")

        Exactly. Time has no power over true values.
    2. We are for our
      We are for our 26 August 2020 13: 39
      -1
      Ordinary pigs smear even more, watch "biathlon".
      1. sergo1914
        sergo1914 26 August 2020 13: 51
        +3
        Quote: We are for our
        Ordinary pigs smear even more, watch "biathlon".


        Sights are evil. We need to take them away. Let them aim through the barrel.
        1. We are for our
          We are for our 26 August 2020 14: 02
          -1
          Let them aim through the barrel.
          at typical distances, they simply will not see the target.
          1. sergo1914
            sergo1914 26 August 2020 14: 11
            -2
            Quote: We are for our
            Let them aim through the barrel.
            at typical distances, they simply will not see the target.


            It all depends on the motivation. If the commander is a good motivator, they will see everything.
  25. Black Colonel
    Black Colonel 26 August 2020 13: 34
    +1
    Shooting rockets is not cheap. Even educational. So the tankers see the exercise on the monitor, but it certainly doesn't come to practice.
    1. iouris
      iouris 26 August 2020 13: 36
      0
      Quote: Black Colonel
      Shooting rockets is not cheap

      It's hard for everyone now. Especially hard for the Americans: they have very, very expensive missiles. Most expensive.
      No money left. But you are learning military science in the real way.
  26. Dron_sk
    Dron_sk 26 August 2020 13: 43
    +1
    what a shame
  27. HUNTERDON
    HUNTERDON 26 August 2020 13: 45
    +4
    it remains only to add - there are no analogues.
  28. We are for our
    We are for our 26 August 2020 13: 47
    +2
    The problems are not in the TOURS, they just fly regularly. In case of failure, the rocket falls 50 meters from the tank, and now this has not happened.
    The whole system is built in such a way that the level of training is assessed not by an outside structure, but by the higher command, therefore combat training is neglected as much as possible (it is not encouraged in any way).
  29. tolancop
    tolancop 26 August 2020 13: 50
    +2
    The failure, frankly, is enchanting. And there is no excuse for him !!! The shooting was demonstrative and they "showed" .... In the SA for such demonstration performances, the personnel were driven not even to the 7th sweat, but until the HB did not rot. And the technique was licked ... Although, for the sake of fairness, I must note that even then there were incidents. It seems to me that the general's stars should "fly", but most likely they will again find a switchman in low ranks. "Of many reasons, it is always more likely that TA is more likely than others to be less affected by rank, and this has long been clear to everyone ..."(from the folklore of the Soviet Navy).
  30. Trigger-Happy
    Trigger-Happy 26 August 2020 13: 54
    -6
    Just think 50/50, the life of a person in Russia is worthless, and even the life of a boy-soldier, and even more so, which one tank will not do, they will do five, no one worries about this, but poisoned those who disagree with the regime and the fugitives with poisons they became energetic and confident !!!! The bald one said bluntly, we will go to heaven, and they will simply die. Why develop a country when you can only pump, dig, saw and sell. Bury a vigorous bomb in the center and engage in blackmail, bargain for better conditions, in extreme cases, detonate it so that neither ourselves nor people ....... we are in heaven anyway.
  31. iouris
    iouris 26 August 2020 13: 54
    +8
    "Domestic" guided missiles are the most unguided missiles in the world!
    This is what the commentator should have shouted. And he shouts that there is still a hit. Ah ... he's probably a radio commentator.
  32. Daoden
    Daoden 26 August 2020 13: 59
    0
    stop Maybe it's "Disinformation" ??? wassat lol
    Well, in the sense that a potential enemy thought that we have all the ATGM smeared .. ??
    And accordingly, there is no need to increase the thickness of the armor, and we do not need to develop new means of penetrating new armor.
    Although the Abrams already weigh under 70t, where else to increase it))
  33. Free wind
    Free wind 26 August 2020 14: 00
    -3
    On the targets it was written "I am zaputina". hard to hit such a target.
  34. JD1979
    JD1979 26 August 2020 14: 04
    +7
    It's so easy and simple to multiply by zero the main advertising plus of Russian tanks - the ability to hit the enemy at a distance of 5 km. Well, since the main tanks of NATO countries do not take the standard shells head-on ... Someone will have to jump out of their pants now in an attempt to explain to the same Indians why they should continue to purchase Russian tanks.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 26 August 2020 17: 38
      -1
      That's why the T 72B3 was hit by everyone - and they will order it.
      1. Alexga
        Alexga 26 August 2020 22: 12
        0
        That's why the T 72B3 was hit by everyone - and they will order it.

        Sure! This tank was built for war, not for parades and ambition.
    2. Charik
      Charik 26 August 2020 19: 40
      -1
      So they burn with RPG-Abrams
      1. JD1979
        JD1979 26 August 2020 21: 24
        +2
        Quote: Charik
        So they burn with RPG-Abrams

        Are you suggesting that the crew of the tank put a couple of RPGs under the seat, just in case? The only question is how to pull 5 km from the RPG, and how to make the abramka turn the board))
        In this case, the task is to sell a tank and not an RPG, they no longer need advertising, they are advertised wherever possible, so even the Americans are releasing counterfeit products. And with the tank it turned out ... what the meme best describes: "This is a fiasco bro." And after all, they were not allowed to reach the maximum range, but how many were there? kilometer and a half or two? so that the audience can clearly see and not just what, but specially invited to a private show.
  35. Roman246810
    Roman246810 26 August 2020 14: 11
    +2
    This is a competition .. where are the best crews ..
    And under normal conditions .. there and half of the tanks will not reach .. let alone talk about missiles ..))
    1. Nastia makarova
      Nastia makarova 26 August 2020 15: 49
      -7
      in your hohlyandii and there are no serviceable tanks, troll !!!
  36. The comment was deleted.
  37. Lew
    Lew 26 August 2020 15: 27
    +2
    and you will further reduce the terms of service in the Army to 6 months, then in a jump a squirrel will fall into the eye ...
  38. Vladimir SHajkin
    Vladimir SHajkin 26 August 2020 15: 54
    +1
    They fly well, there are two obvious questions: either the gunners are not trained, or the sights do not match.
  39. Elephant
    Elephant 26 August 2020 16: 06
    -1

    let them train on cats ...
    1. cat Rusich
      cat Rusich 26 August 2020 21: 11
      +2
      "... let them train on cats ..." - on Leopard 2A7 +
      1. Elephant
        Elephant 28 August 2020 17: 42
        0
        And if they don't get it again ...? Let the military train better so that the civilians do not worry about the security in the country and sleep peacefully and peacefully!
        1. cat Rusich
          cat Rusich 28 August 2020 19: 19
          0
          Elephant, if there is a normal simulator for practicing the use of TUR - let them "train until they turn blue" ... then shoot at the shooting range with "live training" TUR. Is the "price" of training TOURs so high that they are "saved" in order to "spend" combat TOURs "in milk" in battle? "Savings on practice shooting = ruin in combat firefights" - "What we save on training will spend 10 times more in battle."
  40. Dedok
    Dedok 26 August 2020 16: 25
    +4
    "... It is difficult to disagree with him: if the tank crews selected for participation in the demonstration firing were not up to par, then what is the average level of training in the tank units of the Russian army, we can only guess."

    and if the level of technology is ???
    Or is it easier to blame the human factor today?
    But what about the principles of modernity - "flew out - and forgot !?"
    all around the window, and we are the main participants ...
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 26 August 2020 17: 43
      +2
      Even in Chechnya, KUV was used - and refused to use it due to its low efficiency. And the Reflex M1 has long been outdated with its penetration of 850 millimeters of armor behind the DZ by modern tanks, and it won't take it into the side of a double DZ, and considering that now KAZ is starting to put everything on everything, the effectiveness of this complex will be about zero.
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 27 August 2020 08: 34
        +1
        Show me a tank that is guaranteed to withstand 800 mm even in the forehead of the turret. In Chechnya, KUV is not needed; with the same success, instead of one expensive missile, a bunch of cheap landmines can be fired.
  41. Archivist Vasya
    Archivist Vasya 26 August 2020 17: 24
    0
    The results are not encouraging, alas, but it is well that the shortcomings of our preparation have become known, which cannot be hidden under a formal report.
    Did they shoot rockets at the previous "biathlons"? I don’t remember such bad results.
  42. Old tanker
    Old tanker 26 August 2020 17: 30
    0
    Rather, the problem is in missiles. Getting a TUR from a place to a stationary target is generally no problem! Keep the reticle on the center of the target and a working missile will fly where it needs to go. If it had been in the KUV of the tank, they would not have been hit at all.
  43. Old tanker
    Old tanker 26 August 2020 17: 35
    +2
    But the fact is that in reality the TUR is not allowed in the troops because of their high cost. Only on show, and so are limited by electronic starts on simulators. Since Soviet times, instead of real launches of 9F68M, the director was put on the headmistress, and then mostly officers "dabbled", and the fighters did not even reach electronic launches from it. It is good if in the unit, mainly in training, there were stationary simulators.
  44. The comment was deleted.
  45. Yuri Shalnov
    Yuri Shalnov 26 August 2020 18: 13
    +4
    I am tormented by a question as old as the world: - did you manage to paint the grass on the landfill?
  46. Maks1995
    Maks1995 26 August 2020 18: 44
    +4
    You have clearly announced: The targets are defeated. And the fact that they saw something wrong ... it's all Mandai and the machinations of the State Department.
  47. Bez 310
    Bez 310 26 August 2020 18: 50
    +5
    Yeah...
    They showed what the best crews are capable of in greenhouse conditions.
    So we accidentally learned the real level of training of our Army.
    I wonder if there are already official explanations for this shame?
    1. iouris
      iouris 26 August 2020 22: 07
      0
      Quote: Bez 310
      I wonder if there are already official explanations for this shame?

      It doesn't need to be explained. It should be stated, "We have everything under control."
  48. Jack O'Neill
    Jack O'Neill 26 August 2020 19: 05
    +9
    Chet recalled:
  49. kirillovleva
    kirillovleva 26 August 2020 19: 17
    0
    An acquaintance was demobilized from the tank forces, a conscript. He laughs at the equipment - in the unit half of the tanks will not start, his tank drove 300 meters on alarm during the training exercise - it stalled and started up with another tank, "from the pusher."
    About Armatu he said that there are several specimens that are extremely raw. In his words, I would not wish anyone to fight as a tanker.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 27 August 2020 08: 32
      -1
      Now conscripts would talk about "Armata". And so, I like to read Ukrainian folk tales in the morning, how tanks don't start in Russia.
    2. kova1967
      kova1967 27 August 2020 16: 08
      0
      I was a bus driver in Moscow! And we often got Ikarus in the same way! So what? In America, they will wait for a repair crew, then draw up an act why it won't start. Then they will think about where to repair .... etc. If ours need to cut down a tree, they take an ax, and the Yankees are waiting for a chainsaw to be brought to them!
      1. d4rkmesa
        d4rkmesa 27 August 2020 21: 39
        0
        I saw how buses are evacuated in Rostov, but there are always special vehicles, KAMAZ or Ural.
    3. Dedok
      Dedok 28 August 2020 08: 48
      0
      a neighbor's boy was drafted into the army, a mechanic into a tank (through training in the current DOSAAf), and his height is 192 ...
      six months later they wrote off outright ...
  50. Larch
    Larch 26 August 2020 19: 20
    +7
    Half of the missiles missed

    Someone from the stands was playing with a laser pointer))!