Military Review

Combat ships. Why is it so with the ideal, monsieur?

107

May the regular readers of the column forgive me for jumping so unceremoniously from the criticized German light troughs for some reason to the French heavy cruisers. Yes, in theory, "Hippers" should go now, but here - "Algeri". And this is no accident. At the very end there will be an answer to the question why this is so. But everything is fair.


So, after the end of the First World War, France found itself in a secondary role, in the regional powers strangled by the London Agreement and the Washington Treaty. The only rival with whom it was possible to fight for supremacy on the seas (more precisely, in the Mediterranean Sea) was Italy.

Already at that time it became clear that in the Mediterranean water area we were not talking about battleships at all, these sledgehammers would be used as a last resort, and all work, both in peacetime and in wartime, would lie on the decks of cruisers and destroyers.

Cruisers ... Well, with them both the French and the Italians were so-so. The Italian "Trento" and "Trieste" were still scrap metal, although the same could be said about the "Duquesne" and "Suffren" of the French.

The Italians made the first move, laying down the Zaras. These were not the best ships, but they were head and shoulders above everything previously done.

The most interesting thing is that, according to the London agreement, France and Italy could each have 7 heavy cruisers. And the French had 6 !!! And the Italians laid as many as 4 new Zaras, which obviously nobody liked in France.

Even if the Italians did not build good ships (and they did, albeit with reservations), the four new heavy cruisers are a serious claim to superiority. For a new cruiser is a new cruiser in the Mediterranean pool.

It was necessary not only to answer, but quickly and efficiently. And I want to say that the French did not just succeed. And it turned out just great.


In general, the project of the new cruiser was initially very serious, especially in terms of booking. Against the background of the "cardboard" "Suffrens" the ship looked like an armored monster from pre-war times.

All vertical armor had to withstand a 155 mm projectile hit from 15 km, and horizontal - from 20 km. The anti-torpedo protection was charged with the responsibility to save the ship from being hit by a torpedo with a warhead of 300 kg of explosives.

Well, the appearance was also very modern. The name was in honor of the 100th anniversary of the establishment of a French protectorate over Algeria, which coincided with the year of the foundation.

"Algeria".

Combat ships. Why is it so with the ideal, monsieur?

Laid down on March 19, 1931. Launched on May 21, 1932. Commissioned on September 15, 1934. Died in Toulon on November 27, 1942. Sold for scrap on December 21, 1956.

Yes, the fate is more than short, but let's not rush, but consider it simply and impartially - like a warship.

Displacement:
- standard: 10 109 t;
- full: 13 461 t.

Length: 180 / 186,2 m.
Width: 20 m
Draft: 6,15 m (normal), 7,1 m (fully loaded).

Reservations.
- belt: 110 mm;
- longitudinal bulkhead: 40 mm;
- traverses: 70 mm;
- deck: from 30 to 80 mm;
- towers: 100 mm (forehead), 70 mm (side);
- barbettes: 70 mm;
- conning tower: 100 mm.

Engines. 4 TZA Rateau Bretagne, 84 liters. from. Travel speed 000 knots. Cruising range of 31 nautical miles at 8 knots. Swimming autonomy 700 days.

The power plant has proven to be very reliable and economical. The maximum test speed was 33,2 knots with a power of 95 hp. A clean-bottomed cruiser could travel 700 miles at 8700 knots, 15 miles at 7000 knots and 20 miles at 4000 knots with a combat fuel reserve of 27 tons.

Crew 616 man.

Armament.

Main caliber: 4 × 2 - 203 mm
Flak:
6 × 2 - 100-mm universal guns;
4 × 1 - 37-mm anti-aircraft guns;
4 × 4 - 13,2 mm machine guns.
Mine-torpedo armament: 2 three-pipe torpedo tubes 550 mm.


Aviation group: 1 catapult, 2 seaplanes Gourdou Leseurre GL-812HY.


In general, a very strong set. Yes, the Italians put power plants under 100 hp on their heavy cruisers, but this added speed, but not critical. The armor was much better than that of the Zara, the universal artillery was twice as strong, the main caliber ... With the main caliber it was generally separate история... Considering that it was not necessary to check in battle during the war, theoretically speaking, I would not bet on the Italians, who sent their 203-mm shells towards the enemy throughout the war and nothing more.

With the beginning of the war, "Algeria" managed to go through a number of modernizations and improvements, and, it should be noted, they were all on the case. This is not typical for the French military department, which is simply mired in a mess.

At the beginning of 1940, all single-barreled 37-mm anti-aircraft guns were replaced with twin installations of the same caliber. The number of trunks has doubled.



Additionally installed four more machine guns "Browning" M1921 caliber 13,2 mm. These are "Browning" of the Belgian concern FN under the French cartridge 13,2x99 from "Hotchkiss".

In 1942, four more 13,2-mm Browning were installed. And most importantly, a DEM radar with a wavelength of 2 m was installed at the same time.

The universal caliber was luxurious. The 100-mm M1930 guns were really head and shoulders above their Italian counterparts, and the appearance of these guns on French ships was a great success. The guns could fire both at surface targets and at flying targets. Anti-aircraft high-explosive shells flew to an altitude of 10 km, semi-armor-piercing shells were fired at a range of up to 15 km.

The real rate of fire was 6-7 rounds per minute.

The main caliber is the 203-mm guns of the 1931 model. They did not differ much from the guns of the 1924 model with which the heavy cruisers of the early buildings were armed, but they were very good guns.


The gun had three types of shells. High-explosive weight 123,8 kg, armor-piercing weight 123,1 kg. The gun could send these shells to a range of 31,4 km. And there was also a reinforced armor-piercing projectile weighing 134 kg, which flew a shorter distance (30 km), but could do serious things.

All the turrets of the main caliber bore their own names. The first bow - "Alzhe", in honor of the capital, the second bow - "Oran", the first stern - "Kara Mustafa", the second stern - "Constantine".

On paper, in numbers, it turned out to be a very serious ship. With a good move, good armor protection, weapons. The weak point was definitely the air defense, but this was typical for many fleets at the beginning of the war.

Combat application.


"Algeria" became part of the 1st light division, where almost all heavy cruisers of the French fleet.

When the Second World War broke out, "Algeria" was included in the composition of "X", which hunted (without much success) on German raiders in the Atlantic. In 1940, the cruiser was engaged in escorting especially important convoys, transported part of France's gold reserves (almost 60 tons of gold) to Canada.


Unfortunately, the ship took part in only one real combat campaign. This happened after Italy declared war on France. On June 14, 1940, the cruiser fired at targets on the coast near Genoa. And on June 22, France had already surrendered by signing the Compiegne Agreement.

As one of the newest ships, the Algeria remained in the Vichy fleet, which was turned into the High Seas Fleet. The ship made its only combat campaign in November 1940, after which the fleet's combat activities were practically stopped.


Then there was the Toulon tragedy. On November 11, 1942, German troops launched Operation Anton - the occupation of Vichy territory. At the same time, the implementation of Operation Leela began, according to which the Germans decided to take over the French fleet.

German Tanks appeared on the outskirts of Toulon on the morning of November 27, 1942. Almost the entire French fleet was in the harbor. Only a few ships and submarines left for the breakthrough to Casablanca, since no one delayed or tried to stop. The rest heroically drowned themselves in the Toulon raid.

"Algeria" was actually unlucky, its crew was too responsible about the destruction of the ship, blowing it up in several places, opening the kingstones and setting fires. The cruiser landed in the harbor and burned for almost three weeks, turning into a pile of bare, charred metal. Nobody rushed to extinguish it, and so it happened to destroy the cruiser.



Since Toulon fell into the zone of Italian occupation, the relevant services of the Italian fleet tried to do something with the ship, but could not raise it. That was the end of it.


The remains of the ship were recovered only in 1949, and by 1956 nothing remained of the Ajir.

In general, a very sad story, because the weaker cruisers quite successfully fought the entire war.

"Algeria" can really be considered one of the best heavy cruisers in the world of the post-Washington period. It was very well balanced. Decent anti-torpedo protection, good armor, effective main battery artillery, excellent versatile weapons in sufficient quantity to solve many problems.


Some experts believe that in aggregate, the Algeria was superior to many ships of its time, such as the Pensacola, Zara, Admiral Hipper and Takao.

To be honest, everything is fair on this list, although Takao was perhaps the stronger. She surpassed the "Algeria" in speed and range, which was not critical for a French cruiser operating in the Mediterranean, and the Japanese ship possessed a stronger air defense. And the French cruiser had a radar at the beginning of the war, which made life much easier.

If it were not for the excessive zeal of the crew, who could have just gone to Algeria or Morocco on a cruiser with a decent speed and continued the war there ... But it turned out as it was.


Finally, why did the Algeria go ahead of the German heavy cruisers of the Admiral Hipper class? It's simple. The Germans, after the start of the revival, the Kriegsmarine needed heavy cruisers. This is normal. But there were simply no projects alive and well. And Hitler needed ships yesterday.

Fortunately for Germany, there were Admiral Canaris and his "Abwehr", which had many competent scouts and naval specialists. A huge amount of work has been done to extract information of a classified nature and analyze this information.

And this work showed that Algeria should be taken as a role model. Which the Germans did. See how similar the general idea of ​​the ship is. And between the laying of the ships, no less than six years passed.



But "Admiral Hipper" and "Prince Eugen" fought the entire Second World War, but their prototype did not work out. It happens. Therefore, we note the excellent work of the French to create a heavy cruiser, which can be called, if not ideal, then close to ideal. But the main attention will be paid to German ships, whose life was, although not longer than that of the hero of our story, but much more meaningful.
Author:
107 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 26 August 2020 18: 15 New
    +3
    Traditionally, I would like to thank the author for the article provided. Maybe for specialists this is old, but for me, on the ground, it was interesting to read.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Romka47
      Romka47 27 August 2020 15: 48 New
      +1
      You leave a similar comment for every article in the Roman cycle, and every time I like it because
      Maybe for specialists this is old, but for me, on the ground, it was interesting to read. for me the same hi
      1. Vadivak
        Vadivak 28 August 2020 20: 32 New
        +1
        Quote: ...
        2 seaplanes Gourdou Leseurre GL-812HY.

        But I doubt it. For most of the aircraft were decommissioned by 1939, and this rubbish was not planned on Algeria-type weights
    3. unknown
      unknown 30 August 2020 16: 47 New
      +3
      Traditionally, I add that the topic has not yet been disclosed.
      And on this ship there are works by Kofman, blessed memory of him, Patyanin, Aleksandrov.
      And according to the characteristics of this ship, first of all, in terms of the mass of armor, there are very serious discrepancies.
  2. Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 26 August 2020 18: 46 New
    10
    The booking was much better than Zara's,

    PTZ - yes ... But booking in general is highly doubtful.
    Parity at best.


    Fortunately for Germany, there were Admiral Canaris and his "Abwehr", which had many competent scouts and naval specialists. A huge amount of work has been done to extract information of a classified nature and analyze this information.

    It's strange, but not a single German source writes about this spy story ...
    They only write that Raeder gave the command to design a cruiser not worse than the strongest ship of a potential enemy. The strongest at that time was considered “Algeri”.


    And this work showed that Algeria should be taken as a role model. Which the Germans did. See how similar the general idea of ​​the ship is. And between the laying of the ships, no less than six years passed.

    After reading this, you can decide that all the ships of the Kriegsmarine "second generation" (post-Weimar) are copied from the "Algerie". :)
    One thing is bad, before making such a conclusion, the author did not rummage through the history of the German fleet.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 26 August 2020 19: 27 New
      20
      It's strange, but not a single German source writes about this spy story ...
      Yes, the author does not hesitate to drive a gag. Either the Japanese copy the planes from the French, then the Germans copy the ships.
    2. Constanty
      Constanty 27 August 2020 11: 31 New
      +5
      The PTZ of the cruiser "Algeria" had a maximum depth of 4,2 meters! - a size that many battleships did not have, and in this respect was perhaps the best heavy cruiser.
      The armor of the "Algeria" itself weighed 2657 tons, and in this respect it was almost comparable to the mass of the armor of the cruisers "Zara" - 2688 tons.
      Of course, the Italian cruisers of this type had thicker armor on the side strips and turrets, but despite the nominally thinner plates in Algeria, its armor was more extensive - see Drawings



      The author's claims that the Algeria was the prototype of the Admiral Hipper ships should not be taken seriously.

      The only thing that unites these ships is the number of main artillery pieces - 8 guns in 4 turrets and a smooth-deck hull. Algeria, however, had a higher freeboard, more hull filling, and a four-shaft Admiral Hipper engine - three-shaft.

      Yes, the French cruiser undoubtedly made an impression on the German designers, this cannot be considered a copy of the French project or considered as a prototype. I have not met the story of the theft of his plans by the Abwehr - it is, rather, an invention of the author.
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 27 August 2020 18: 32 New
        +1
        Quote: Constanty
        his armor was more extensive - see blueprints

        That one, that the second has an all-or-nothing booking scheme.
        The only plus of "Algeri" is a thick anti-tank vehicle.
        1. Constanty
          Constanty 28 August 2020 08: 16 New
          0
          The Algerie made a much larger contribution to armor in terms of displacement.
          The presence of thinner armor plates with practically the same weight (the difference in the case of the Gorizia cruiser was only 16 tons!), Must have led to the fact that there were simply more of these plates.
          Of course, the thick PTP ate a lot, but the longitudinal bulkheads of the French cruiser 40-60 mm thick, extending from the double bottom to the main deck, served not only as an anti-torpedo bulkhead, but also as splinter armor for shells passing through the main belt and deck armor. This significantly increased the effectiveness of the armor and protection of the ship's vital mechanisms.
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 28 August 2020 14: 52 New
            0
            Quote: Constanty
            (The difference in the case of the Gorizia cruiser was only 16 tons!)

            The difference went to 40-mm anti-tank guns ...

            Quote: Constanty
            This significantly increased the effectiveness of the armor and protection of the ship's vital mechanisms.

            The cars were covered. And the cellars?
            1. Constanty
              Constanty 28 August 2020 15: 14 New
              0
              And the cellars?


              In my opinion, the ammo storage vaults (red) in Algerie are better protected.

        2. unknown
          unknown 30 August 2020 16: 57 New
          0
          Aleksandrov in his monograph points out that the calculations made by the French showed that in order to obtain the belt thickness as in the Zara-class cruisers, another 230 tons are needed, and in order to similarly increase the deck thickness - another 90 tons.
          1. Constanty
            Constanty 31 August 2020 08: 33 New
            0
            From what you write, 320 tons would have to be added to the armor level of the Italian cruisers ZARA, while the standard displacement of the Algeria is 1710 tf less, and the French cruiser has a longer flight range - 8700mm / 15w .. and the Zara is 5361mm / 16w.
      2. unknown
        unknown 30 August 2020 16: 55 New
        0
        Patyanin In his works indicates the mass of armor in 2035 tons. If we accept his point of view, it turns out that light cruisers of the "Garibaldi" type carried more armor.
    3. unknown
      unknown 30 August 2020 16: 51 New
      0
      There are serious differences in the weight of the armor. For example, Aleksandrov, in his monograph, published in 2007, indicates the mass of armor at 2657 tons, and Patyanin in his works indicates the mass of armor at 2035 tons. The discrepancy is very serious. And who is closer to the truth?
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 30 August 2020 17: 19 New
        +1
        Quote: ignoto
        And who is closer to the truth?

        2035 (1720 + 315) t - figures from the work of Mulin-Muran.
        There is some kind of nonsense in Aleksandrov's work: 3135 (1720 + 1415) vol.
        What the author "smoked" is completely incomprehensible ...
        1. unknown
          unknown 30 August 2020 17: 50 New
          0
          In the monograph by Yu.I. Aleksandrov, released in 2007, the weight of the armor is 2657 tons (2265 + 392).
          But the load items for equipment and other items are greatly underestimated.
          Therefore, I still believe that Patyanin is closer to the truth, with his 2035 tons.
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 30 August 2020 17: 56 New
            0
            Quote: ignoto
            the weight of the armor is indicated at 2657 tons (2265 + 392).

            1. unknown
              unknown 30 August 2020 18: 09 New
              0
              I meant the monograph by Yu.I. Aleksandrov, published in 2007 by the Eastflot publishing house in the series "Combat ships of the world".
              Perhaps the data is different in different publications.
              Evolution of views.
              1. Macsen_wledig
                Macsen_wledig 30 August 2020 18: 21 New
                0
                Quote: ignoto
                I meant the monograph by Yu.I. Aleksandrov, published in 2007 by the Eastflot publishing house in the series "Combat ships of the world".
                Perhaps the data is different in different publications.
                Evolution of views.

                So it is from her.
                Page 26.
            2. Constanty
              Constanty 31 August 2020 08: 53 New
              0
              Slightly strange values ​​in this table, especially when it comes to artillery armor. There is information that the total weight of the armor of the 203-mm towers of the cruiser "Algeria" was 315 tons, which in combination with 1720 tons of hull armor gives 2035 tons - this is what M.J. Whitley's "Cruisers of World War II".
        2. unknown
          unknown 30 August 2020 17: 52 New
          0
          I believe that it was not the author who "smoked", but the editor missed the typing error.
          Faced with this.
        3. Constanty
          Constanty 31 August 2020 10: 15 New
          0
          In the extensive monograph "Le croiseur" Algerie "" Jean Moulin, Patrick Maurand
  3. antivirus
    antivirus 26 August 2020 18: 48 New
    -4
    that in aggregate "Algeria" was superior to many ships of its time, such as "Pensacola", "Zara", "Admiral Hipper" and "Takao".


    - the fate of the fleets in the hands of milkmaids - are they ready to give their sons to the army and the navy to fight, and not sit up.
    everything would have been different - both fame and history in the centuries.
    it turned out to be another republic without colonies and prospects for world leadership. did not pay in blood.
    1. unknown
      unknown 30 August 2020 17: 00 New
      +1
      "Algeria" in the aggregate of characteristics did not surpass any of these ships.
      In addition, it had a significant drawback - a complete lack of displacement stock.
      And this is called the impossibility of serious modernization.
      Suffice it to recall the Cleveland-class cruiser.
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 30 August 2020 19: 58 New
        0
        Algeria "in the aggregate of characteristics was not superior to any of these ships.

        THIS IS TO THE AUTHOR, NOT MY WORDS, IF YOU READ THE ARTICLE
  4. PSih2097
    PSih2097 26 August 2020 19: 00 New
    +4
    A bygone era, beautiful ships used to be, similar contours remained in the Russian Federation, the USA in the type of "museums" and at the bottom ... Although, to be honest, from the battleships I only like the Japanese (Yamato), Americans (Iowa) and our "Sevastopoli "... I'll have to buy and collect.
    At least I remember my childhood ... Eh.


  5. Undecim
    Undecim 26 August 2020 19: 24 New
    20
    Since Toulon fell into the zone of Italian occupation, the relevant services of the Italian fleet tried to do something with the ship, but could not raise it. That was the end of it.
    Why defame the honest name of the Italian company Cantiere Navale Santa Maria di Genova, which raised the ship on August 19, 1943. However, while trying to tow it, he drowned again. The Italians raised again, but the corps ran aground. The third time, in 1944, the corps was raised by the Germans, but the Americans sunk it again during the raid. And the corps was finally raised in 1949.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 26 August 2020 19: 44 New
      +2
      Vic, good evening. hi
      So bad luck - so bad luck: how many times the poor fellow was drowned. Destiny ... or, conversely, not destiny. smile
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 26 August 2020 19: 51 New
        +2
        Who knows. The ships, too, probably have a destiny.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 26 August 2020 19: 53 New
          +1
          This is noticeable in our "Aurora", after all, it could not return after the battle in Tsushima.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 26 August 2020 20: 01 New
            +7
            Or "classmates" - "Olympic", "Titanic", "Britannic".
            "Olympic" "lived" a bright, full of events life and retired. And the "brothers" drowned.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 26 August 2020 20: 17 New
              +1
              I don’t remember exactly, but it seems that I read from Z. Pearl that the Russian ships named "Eagle" were catastrophically unlucky, starting with the first one, which Razin slept and ending with the battleship "donated" to the Japanese after Tsushima.
              1. PSih2097
                PSih2097 26 August 2020 20: 49 New
                +1
                Quote: Sea Cat
                I read that Russian ships named "Eagle" were catastrophically unlucky,

                yes, even the hospital under this name was interned, although they had no rights ...
              2. Undecim
                Undecim 26 August 2020 20: 53 New
                +4
                Yes, I would not say. If turbopatriotism is squeezed into a fist, many ships in the Russian fleet "were unlucky", moreover, for various reasons.
                For example, the second in a row "Eagle", a sail-steam battleship with 84 guns, put into operation in 1855, ten years later was simply dismantled for firewood due to the end of the era of sailing battleships. During these ten years, the ship did not perform any special feats, except for practical voyages. Is that how you think, lucky or not?
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 26 August 2020 21: 20 New
                  +6
                  Is that how you think, lucky or not?

                  In a way - yes, he died "in his bed." smile But the crew was definitely lucky, no one died.
                  1. Undecim
                    Undecim 26 August 2020 21: 25 New
                    +4
                    And the auxiliary cruiser "Eagle", launched in 1909, was cut to metal already in 1950, after a long service, including under the English flag.
                    By the way, Rozhestvensky's squadron had two "Eagles" - an battleship and a hospital ship. Both went to the Japanese.
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 26 August 2020 21: 27 New
                      +2
                      And the auxiliary cruiser "Eagle"

                      And how did he get to limey and who cut it into metal?
                      1. Undecim
                        Undecim 26 August 2020 21: 30 New
                        +4
                        In 1921, the White Guards sold. So it became "Silvia", then "Haitan". The British and cut.
                      2. hohol95
                        hohol95 26 August 2020 23: 54 New
                        +1
                        On September 30, 1908, the Volunteer Fleet signed a contract with the German firm F. Schichau in Elbing for the construction of three large commodity-passenger steamships for long-distance transportation on the lines between Vladivostok and foreign ports. The lead steamer of the series was named "Eagle".
                        In 1950, the ship was cut into metal in Hong Kong.
                2. Catfish
                  Catfish 26 August 2020 21: 21 New
                  +3
                  Again some kind of Mr. and crawls around the site.
                  laughing
                  1. Undecim
                    Undecim 26 August 2020 21: 27 New
                    +1
                    Yeah, I also noticed that someone sculpts a minus.
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 26 August 2020 21: 30 New
                      +4
                      A wordless creature, that's the only way he can shit. Or our dear Golovan is again in the bathhouse, he was here under a different nickname stuck out his face, but he was multiplied by a minus at once.
                      1. Undecim
                        Undecim 26 August 2020 21: 32 New
                        +4
                        under a different nickname he stuck out his face
                        Under what?
                      2. Catfish
                        Catfish 26 August 2020 21: 36 New
                        +3
                        Yes, a week or two ago, either Bruce Norris, or something else.
                      3. Undecim
                        Undecim 26 August 2020 21: 56 New
                        +2
                        Yes, there was such a vision, but he was very much swimming against the current, Golovan did not rush at people like that. Maybe brutalized?
                      4. Catfish
                        Catfish 26 August 2020 21: 58 New
                        +4
                        Sitting in the bath for a long time is unhealthy, so it comes as no surprise. laughing
            2. The leader of the Redskins
              The leader of the Redskins 26 August 2020 22: 03 New
              -3
              I already know my "personal" (or rather one of them). He foolishly told me "live" that I was "not comme il faut" to him))) laughing
              And Undecim knows about him)))
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 26 August 2020 22: 09 New
                +2
                Nazar hi , and what kind of client, I myself drew attention to the fact that you mold the minuses without any explanation, level them as far as possible.
                1. The leader of the Redskins
                  The leader of the Redskins 26 August 2020 22: 17 New
                  +3
                  Thank. Never mind. There is one here ... Positions himself as a former machine gunner from the DPR. Having speculated on this topic, he ascended to the rank of general. For half a year! And now even sometimes he is rude to young people. Not otherwise aspires to marshals ...
                  PS And, actually, my name is Igor. And Nazarius is a pseudonym that my son invented)
                2. Catfish
                  Catfish 26 August 2020 22: 32 New
                  +1
                  Igor, I understand who you are. My son asked me to go to this site, but my wife came up with the idea. smile
                3. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 26 August 2020 22: 40 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  "drove" was invented by his wife.

                  And how did you justify it?
                4. Catfish
                  Catfish 26 August 2020 22: 48 New
                  +6
                  1st class in the third group of specialization (light divers). White Sea - BBS, Black Sea - Sevastopol. In general, I did not ask her, I wanted to and did it, but they call me the Cat, on behalf of, since childhood.
                5. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 26 August 2020 22: 58 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  (light divers)

                  It means that you are not very:
                  Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                  me, overland,
                6. Catfish
                  Catfish 26 August 2020 23: 11 New
                  0
                  It means that you are not very:

                  Sorry, I did not understand.
                7. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 26 August 2020 23: 13 New
                  0
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  Sorry, I did not understand.

                  Not quite land-based, as they wrote at the very top.
                8. Catfish
                  Catfish 26 August 2020 23: 41 New
                  +1
                  So it was not I who wrote it, but Igor. Although, of course, to a person who gave all his life to the sea and ships, I, naturally, seem not quite "sea". smile
                9. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 26 August 2020 23: 46 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  So it was not I who wrote it, but Igor.

                  Ugh, beguiled. fool I relaxed completely, and I have dinner, and I watch a movie about Streltsov, and then I write all sorts of nonsense. I'm sorry. hi
                10. Catfish
                  Catfish 26 August 2020 23: 53 New
                  +1
                  I'm sorry

                  It's my pleasure. If you're bored, check out "Ending the Hussite Wars" at the very end of the comments. There we have a new philologist formed, maybe it will be interesting for you. wink
  6. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 27 August 2020 12: 21 New
    0
    You picked up a good picture ... Right. Hatched)))
  • unknown
    unknown 30 August 2020 17: 09 New
    +2
    All ships of this type bear the mark of "inferiority".
    How many wrote that both the hull contours are unsuccessful, and there is no controllability.
    And the weapons are weak.
    In vain they wrote.
    The Japanese, having got hold of "Pallada", created a "miracle".
    The cruiser began to sail at a speed of 20 knots.
    And the "miracle" turned out to be not a miracle at all, but just a head with brains.
    It was enough to change the location of variable loads on the cruiser.
    The cruiser has ceased to sit "pig", that is, to bury her nose.
    The speed has increased, handling has improved.
    There is evidence that Yegorov also thought of this during his trip to Tsushima.
    And the armament was normal. There were five 6 "guns in the side salvo. The Varyag had six.
  • doktorkurgan
    doktorkurgan 26 August 2020 20: 38 New
    +2
    At the beginning of 1940, all single-barreled 37-mm anti-aircraft guns were replaced with twin installations of the same caliber. The number of trunks has doubled.


    There are semiautomatic devices with store food. CAS M-1925 single, CAS M-1933 - twin.
    1. unknown
      unknown 30 August 2020 17: 12 New
      0
      I already in the comments to one of the previous articles of the cycle indicated that the French had a 25 mm machine gun, which the Japanese used in their entire fleet.
  • 911sx
    911sx 26 August 2020 22: 10 New
    -2
    Roman publishes interesting articles about ships and planes. I sometimes disagree with him in some way, but the author definitely has his own vision and, which is very important, his point of view is always justified. Not always
    it is understandable why some readers reject the fact that the Germans, Japanese, Russians, Americans borrowed a lot from the French. This is normal. The technique of the French has always been no worse than that of others, and sometimes even better. From articles on VO I recently learned that the Tiger's transmission (T-6), in the opinion of GABTU engineers, repeated a similar unit of a French tank. It didn't surprise me, but it seems that the author of that article was surprised a lot. From today's examples I will cite Laffaette. You can recall Leclerc's gun, Rheinmetall spent years trying to repeat (not improve) its characteristics, shells (that is, the shots are the same). And Exocet ... was copied by all and sundry. And Aster 15 ... The list can be long. But the replication by many countries of the Austrian Pandur (an average car in my opinion) is perceived calmly.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 26 August 2020 23: 07 New
      12
      it is understandable why some readers reject the fact that the Germans, Japanese, Russians, Americans borrowed a lot from the French.
      This does not cause any rejection. Rejection is caused by stories drawn from the finger on specific samples, as well as the author's stubborn unwillingness to work on his technical level.
    2. unknown
      unknown 30 August 2020 17: 15 New
      0
      From the point of view of astrology, the totem animal of France is the Goat. Goats are the pioneers. They have the gift of highlighting promising solutions. True, it is not recommended for them to fight themselves.
  • Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 26 August 2020 22: 53 New
    12
    I would solder a minus negative
    The author practically did not tell anything about the design of the cruiser, and in fact HOW the French managed to cram a solid reservation into 10000 tons of iron is the highlight of this wonderful (for standard "Washingtonians") cruiser. The material is so-so, for the victims of the exam, the general provisions of the performance characteristics and service.
    After all, the most interesting thing is how to balance the characteristics, how to sacrifice for the sake of the acceptability of the main tactical elements, how to choose the right power plant, how to design the hull in order to save weight for other load items without deteriorating seaworthiness, and so on. It was the technical solutions that allowed the paddling pools to make, in my opinion, almost a standard in real 10 tons.
    The weak point was definitely the air defense, but this was typical for many fleets at the beginning of the war.

    belay It was at the time of entry into service that the air defense met the requirements imposed at that time against the aircraft of that period. Another thing is that by WWII the development of aviation went ahead and the guardians got lost here, but this, as the author correctly noted, concerned everyone. Although this concerns rather fire control systems than the weapons themselves, because the same paired 100-mm universal guns were quite modern and adequate for their purposes.
    So, purely for me, the topic of this very interesting ship is not disclosed from the word "absolutely" No.
    1. Comrade
      Comrade 26 August 2020 23: 25 New
      +9
      Quote: Rurikovich
      The author practically did not say anything about the design of the cruiser ...... the topic of this very interesting ship is not disclosed from the word "absolutely"

      It must be admitted that the author is simply incompetent in the topic.
      But one could not disgrace himself, but take Breer's monograph and shrink it to the size of an article.
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 27 August 2020 18: 34 New
        +2
        Quote: Comrade
        But one could not disgrace himself, but take Breer's monograph and shrink it to the size of an article.

        This he will insert in the next article. As I understand it, "hippers" are promised. :)
        1. Comrade
          Comrade 28 August 2020 06: 53 New
          +1
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          This he will insert in the next article. As I understand it, "hippers" are promised

          In an amicable way, they deserve a cycle of 4-5 articles.
          Design and construction; service history.
        2. unknown
          unknown 30 August 2020 17: 29 New
          0
          Not necessarily foreign language. There are also enough Russian-speaking authors on these topics.
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 30 August 2020 17: 43 New
            0
            Quote: ignoto
            There are also enough Russian-speaking authors on these topics.

            Unfortunately they are very outdated ...
            Even to familiarize yourself with the topic should be used carefully.
            1. unknown
              unknown 30 August 2020 17: 56 New
              0
              You still need to use.
              This is part of the historiographic process.
              The evolution of points of view is also quite interesting.
              1. Macsen_wledig
                Macsen_wledig 30 August 2020 18: 00 New
                0
                So Yes...
                But the lack of information gives rise to all sorts of "legends".
                1. unknown
                  unknown 30 August 2020 18: 18 New
                  0
                  There will always be legends.
                  Even in the "saint".
                  In the photo and film materials, the researchers identified eight Lenins.
                  Four were identified.
                  Worker Nikiforov disappears.
                  Statistician for the chronicle.
                  There are three left: Nikolai Karpov (photo "Lenin in Razliv"), Vladimir Ulyanov, Dmitry Ulyanov.
                  At the same time, Nikolai Karpov sailed with Trotsky on a "revolutionary" steamer.
                  And Vladimir Ulyanov arrived in a sealed carriage from Germany.
                  And which one is the real one?
                  Dilemma.
                  And who is in the mausoleum?
                  Boris Ranstein?
                  There will always be legends.
                  The main thing is to look and not give up.
                  1. Macsen_wledig
                    Macsen_wledig 30 August 2020 18: 20 New
                    0
                    Quote: ignoto
                    There will always be legends.
                    The main thing is to look and not give up.

                    And it is right... :)
    2. unknown
      unknown 30 August 2020 17: 28 New
      0
      Standard solution: hull and power plant.
      Compared to previous types of French heavy cruisers, a breakthrough is evident.
      And if we compare it with the supposed counterpart - the "Zara" type, then not everything is so smooth and not clear.
      The body of the Italians is lighter, and significantly.
      If we use Alexandrov's data, then 553 tons, and if Patyanin's data, then all 701 tons.
      The mass of KTUs is about the same, despite the more modern French.
      The mass of weapons is also close.
      Not clear with the mass of the armor. Aleksandrov gives 2657 tons, and Patyanin - 2035 tons. The difference is serious.
      Who is closer to the truth?
      Perhaps Patyanin too.
      There are a lot of comparative tables in Alexandrov's monograph.
      In the articles of the load on equipment and other things in his tables, the Frenchman has a clear shortage.
      Patyanin in his works, in these articles of the load indicates other figures.
      If we compare them with the figures of the workload of Italians, we get parity.
      Which is not surprising: the class of ships is the same, the dimension is close, the weapons and the number of the crew are the same.
      The proposed theater of action is one.
  • Comrade
    Comrade 26 August 2020 23: 20 New
    12
    Fortunately for Germany, there were Admiral Canaris and his "Abwehr", which had many competent scouts and naval specialists. A huge amount of work has been done to extract information of a classified nature and analyze this information.
    And this work showed that Algeria should be taken as a role model. Which the Germans did.

    Developing tactical and technical data for a promising heavy cruiser (issued to the design department (Konstruktionsabteilung) in February 1934.), the Germans proceeded from the following requirements - the German cruiser should not be inferior in armament to the French cruiser Algérie, surpass the French battleship Dunkerque in speed and have sufficient fuel and ammunition reserves for operations in the Atlantic.
    The assertion that the project "Algérie", allegedly stolen by the Germans, was used by them as a prototype for the cruisers of the "Admiral Hipper" class is fiction.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 26 August 2020 23: 45 New
      +1
      As far as I remember, Friedrich Ruge, in his work War at Sea 1939-45, constantly mentioned that Hipper had eternal problems with machines.
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 27 August 2020 00: 02 New
        +7
        Quote: Sea Cat
        constantly mentioned that Hipper had constant problems with cars.

        With boilers, the Germans had problems with boilers smile
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 27 August 2020 18: 36 New
          +2
          The "Hipper" had problems with the cars: they had to interrupt their trips twice.
          The boilers worked more or less, they only "ate" a lot. Therefore, during the repair in 41-42, the inter-bottom space was altered to him so that he could take more fuel.
          1. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 27 August 2020 21: 17 New
            +1
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            "Hipper" had problems with the cars:

            I agree. But during the "Teachings on the Rhine" "Prince Eugen" had problems with the boilers yes
            1. Macsen_wledig
              Macsen_wledig 27 August 2020 23: 11 New
              0
              Quote: Rurikovich
              But during the "Teachings on the Rhine" "Prince Eugen" had problems with the boilers

              Also with cars ...
              But here is such a moment: all the "emerged" problems of machines Grazer (starmech "Eugen") considered the consequences of the April mine explosion, the consequences of which were never eliminated.
              On the boilers in the report as of May 29, he wrote the following
              KO 1 - KO 3: it is necessary to carry out some minor repairs in the boiler rooms, but at the moment this does not impose restrictions on the maximum capacity of the installation.
              1. Rurikovich
                Rurikovich 27 August 2020 23: 45 New
                +1
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                Also with cars ...

                Um
                During the battle, an accident took place in one of the boilers of the front boiler room, where at 6.50 a small fire broke out, which was extinguished only at 7.15. Nevertheless, by 8.24 the ship was at full speed, albeit not for long: at 10.18 an order was given to take out of action one boiler in each compartment.

                Actually, there is nothing to argue about - the entire boiler-turbine group of Hipper-class ships did them a disservice ...
                drinks hi
                1. Macsen_wledig
                  Macsen_wledig 28 August 2020 15: 57 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Rurikovich
                  Actually, there is nothing to argue about - the entire boiler-turbine group of Hipper-class ships did them a disservice ...

                  When you read the ZhBD, everything looks not so straightforward.
                  Sometimes in reports between the lines, thoughts like “why should we hammer nails with a microscope?” ...
                  That Meisel, that Brinkmann.
    2. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 26 August 2020 23: 58 New
      +8
      Quote: Comrade
      The assertion that the project "Algérie", allegedly stolen by the Germans, was used by them as a prototype for the cruisers of the "Admiral Hipper" class is fiction.

      It is yes, but during the elaboration at the design stage and other approvals, "Algeria" appeared more than once. Considering that the Germans in the 30s considered the guardians as potential adversaries (the same Dunkirk served as the basis for working out the project of the future Scharnhorst as an enemy), this is not surprising. So the “Algeria” rather figured not as an example to follow, but as a potential rival. And the fact that even with a larger displacement, the Germans did not manage not only to surpass, but even to repeat the defense of the Frenchman, the "merit" of the Germans themselves request The Germans go their own way, they have no need to steal smile
      1. unknown
        unknown 30 August 2020 17: 43 New
        0
        Why it was not possible to surpass. Kofman wrote about this.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 27 August 2020 08: 50 New
    +4
    Some experts believe that in aggregate, the Algeria was superior to many ships of its time, such as the Pensacola, Zara, Admiral Hipper and Takao.

    And, forgive me, why is it taken from the American MRT for comparison "Pepsi-Cola" Pensacola, adopted by the Navy a year before the laying of the Algeria? Until 1931, it was generally considered a KRL.
    For "Algeria" USN ship of its time is New Orleans.
  • deddem
    deddem 27 August 2020 10: 22 New
    +2
    Quote: doktorkurgan
    At the beginning of 1940, all single-barreled 37-mm anti-aircraft guns were replaced with twin installations of the same caliber. The number of trunks has doubled.


    There are semiautomatic devices with store food. CAS M-1925 single, CAS M-1933 - twin.


    By the way, yes.
    The French industry never mastered the paired ACAD machine gun, although according to the drawings it should have been installed everywhere - in Dunkirk, Richelieu, Le Hardy, and even Joffrey.
    And in fact - the experimental installation on the Amiens patrol boat remained the only one of its kind.
    Up to the point that they still do not really know the dimension of the cartridge used in the installation !!
    1. unknown
      unknown 30 August 2020 17: 31 New
      0
      A 25 mm machine gun could help out. I read somewhere that he still got to the French fleet, albeit in single copies.
  • Constanty
    Constanty 27 August 2020 14: 04 New
    +2
    More about the sensation with the alleged abduction of Algeria's plans by Canaris and Abwehr, and on their basis the Admiral Hipper-class cruisers were to be created.
    I have looked through several monographs about these ships and have not come across such information anywhere. The monograph “Admiral Hipper” by Jerzy Moschinskiy and Slawomir Brzezinski in the series “Profile Morskie” No. 50, from where the author took the projection of this ship, does not mention this.
  • Crimea26
    Crimea26 27 August 2020 17: 51 New
    +2
    Those. francs for 4 "Zary" answered with one "Algeria"? It seems to me that this is not quite a "perfect" answer ....
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 27 August 2020 18: 37 New
      0
      Quote: Crimea26
      Those. francs for 4 "Zary" answered with one "Algeria"? It seems to me that this is not quite a "perfect" answer ....

      Haste does not lead to good. :)
    2. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 27 August 2020 21: 32 New
      +1
      Quote: Crimea26
      Those. francs for 4 "Zary" answered with one "Algeria"

      Macaroni and paddling pools were assigned a displacement limit under the Washington Treaty of 7 cruisers with 203mm art.
      The French were the first to start with a pair of cardboard "Duquesne", to which the Italians responded with a pair of half-cartons of the "Trento" type, the French from 1926 to 1929 built four half-carton "Suffrenes", to which the Italians responded in 29-30. four booked Fiume, in parallel building Bolzano to recruit a full-fledged division with the Trento type (which was the development of this type), for which the French had a limit on one ship, which became the Algeria. Bottom line: Italy - 4 armored Zaras and a three-ruble high-speed semi-carton Trento. France - two cardboard TKR, four half-carton plus a single armored "Algeria". The French have a bonus in the form of the best art, because the Italians, with their paired 8 "braces, could only shoot at verabies.
      Here is the alignment smile
      1. unknown
        unknown 30 August 2020 17: 34 New
        0
        It's more about the shells.
        In addition, the Italians had a bonus in the form of two light cruisers of the "Garibaldi" class, which in terms of armor mass exceeded the "Algeria" (if we accept Patyanin's point of view about 2035 tons of French armor) and had 6 "guns with an increased firing range.
  • Melkumov Nikolay Mikhailovich
    Melkumov Nikolay Mikhailovich 28 August 2020 10: 25 New
    +1
    Author - V.L.Kofman: "Algerie" heavy cruiser.
    1. unknown
      unknown 30 August 2020 17: 36 New
      0
      Read also the monograph by Yu.I. Alexandrova.
      He writes more dryly than Kofman, but there is a lot of comparative tabular material in his work.
      These two monographs complement each other perfectly.
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 28 August 2020 17: 05 New
    0
    All vertical armor had to withstand a 155 mm projectile hit from 15 km, and horizontal - from 20 km.

    Maybe the bit is horizontal - up to 20 km?
  • yehat2
    yehat2 28 August 2020 17: 29 New
    +1
    I didn't really understand why the hipper was placed below Algeria, but the story is interesting.
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 28 August 2020 19: 09 New
      +2
      Quote: yehat2
      I didn't really understand why the hipper was placed below Algeria, but the story is interesting.

      I think we will soon find out the author's opinion on this. :)
      1. unknown
        unknown 30 August 2020 18: 04 New
        0
        Perhaps the author will realize that when "writing" the next article, one should rely on a list of used literature, and not on one ...
        From personal experience.
        Once, one student, to one of his term papers (term papers, not a diploma), attached a list of used literature, mainly sources, on forty printed pages.
        Mustache was shocked. Good.
        It's a pity I buried my talent.
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 30 August 2020 18: 23 New
          0
          Quote: ignoto
          Perhaps the author will realize that when "writing" the next article, one should rely on a list of used literature, and not on one ...

          Unfortunately, I have never seen a list of used literature ... :)
  • Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 30 August 2020 21: 20 New
    -1
    I would not mind reading more numbers, for example, a comparison of the muzzle energy of the guns of the GC "Algeria" and "Hipper", otherwise someone else seems to me to have them about a quarter more powerful
    and I would also like to read a comparative analysis of the capabilities of the "battleship" MSA of the Germans with what the French had
    and the anti-aircraft guns of “Algeria” were purely nominal: do you represent it 100/45 at all? ;)
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 30 August 2020 22: 16 New
      0
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      comparison of the muzzle energy of the guns of the GC "Algeria" and "Hipper", but someone else seems to me the German they were about a quarter more powerful

      So this is pure mathematics ...
      122x925 = 112850 J
      123,1x850 = 104635 J
      134x820 = 109880 J

      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      and I would also like to read a comparative analysis of the capabilities of the "battleship" MSA of the Germans with what the French had

      But this is more complicated ...
      If there is at least some description of the SUAO "Hippers", then there is no details about "Algeri".
      1. Andrey Shmelev
        Andrey Shmelev 31 August 2020 00: 02 New
        -1
        So this is pure mathematics ...
        122x925 = 112850 J


        I still thought "uh veh SQUARE in half";)
        tady other math 52,19 versus 45,05 or 44,43
        (I'm guilty, I looked at the wrong number, by 15%)
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 31 August 2020 18: 17 New
          0
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          I still thought "uh veh SQUARE in half";)

          Yep ...
          I counted the impulse and was delighted ... wassat
  • deddem
    deddem 30 August 2020 22: 35 New
    0
    Quote: ignoto
    A 25 mm machine gun could help out. I read somewhere that he still got to the French fleet, albeit in single copies.


    Exactly, in single copies and, in fact, unauthorized - the naval authorities experienced acute heartburn at the mere thought of using "land" weapons.

    Up to the point that the 90-mm guns, sea and land (air defense), produced by the same Schneider, were not unified from the word "absolutely".