Military Review

The end of the Hussite wars

102
The end of the Hussite wars

One of the last Taborite commanders, Jan Rogach, in the film "War for the Faith" ("Against All")


As we recall from the article Taborits and "orphans", in 1434 the contradictions between moderate Hussites, Taborites and "orphans" reached their limit. The Utrakvists did not want to fight anymore and sought to conclude a compromise with the Catholics. In this they were in solidarity with the Czech aristocrats and wealthy merchants. The booty brought by the Hussites from the "wonderful trips" was certainly pleasant, sold cheap and they had nothing against it. But, on the other hand, the blockade of the Czech Republic was not good for the country; many wanted the resumption of normal economic ties with neighbors. Therefore, the so-called Pan Union was created, the basis of the army of which were the personal squads of many aristocrats and knights of Western and Southern Bohemia. They were joined by detachments of utrakvists from Prague and Melnik, as well as the garrison of Karlštejn Castle, which was never taken by Sigismund Koributovich. The knight Diviš Borzhek from Miletin, who had previously served under Jan ižka, was elected the Supreme Hetman of the troops of the Pan Union.


Diviš Borjek iz Miletin

Prokop Goliy (Velikiy), who became the commander-in-chief of the combined forces of Tabor and the "orphans", relied on the support of 16 Czech cities, among which were Hradec Kralove, atec, Kourjim, Nymburk, Jaromer, Trutnov, Dvor Kralovy, Domažlice, Litomer and some others.


Prokop holy

The well-known and authoritative commanders of his detachments were Prokoupek (Prokop Maly), Jan Czapek from San and Jan Rogach from Dubé.

With the assembled troops, Prokop the Naked approached Prague, but could not take it and retreated to Cesky Brod. The army of the Pan Union overtook him at the village of Lipany. Here on May 30, 1434, a decisive battle took place.

Battle of Lipany



Josef Mathauser, Battle of Lipan in 1434

Catholics and Utraquists had some advantage in strength: 12 infantry against 500 for the Taborites and "orphans", 11 cavalry against 1200, and 700 war wagons against 700.

The last attempt to reconcile them was made by Berjich from Guardian, who returned from a "beautiful trip" to Silesia. It was all in vain, he was scolded on both sides and almost killed. With his detachment, Berdzhich left Lipan.

Prokop the Great and his commanders did everything according to the scheme worked out for years, but well known to their opponents: they placed their forces on a hill and built a Wagenburg, surrounded by a moat.

The supreme hetman of the Utrakvists and Catholics Diviš Borzhek is located near the village of Grzhiby. He perfectly knew the tactics of the "orphans" and the Taborites and was a worthy opponent of both Prokopov.

The utrakvists advanced on the attack, leading carts of artillery in front of them. It seemed that under the constant fire, their attack was drowned; they began to retreat. The Taborites acted according to a pattern: they opened passages in their Wagenburg and rushed at the retreating enemy. Dozens of times they overturned the enemy like this, but now the attacking chains themselves fell under the artillery fire of the enemy's carts, and then they were crushed by the blow of the heavy noble cavalry. A small detachment led by Borzhek burst into Wagenburg, which was open for a counterattack, and was blocked there for a while: nothing had yet been decided. However, the Rohmberg cavalrymen threw chains with hooks onto the Wagenburg carts and, turning their horses, managed to knock down 8 of them, opening the way for themselves and for other detachments. The armored cavalry of the Utraquists and Catholics rushed into the open Wagenburg, followed by foot soldiers. Taborits and "orphans" still fought at their wagons, losing commanders and soldiers, scattered and without hope of victory.


But behind Wagenburg stood their cavalry, and this detachment was commanded by Jan Czapek - the same one who in the summer of 1433, in alliance with the Polish Jagailo, defeated the Teutons and reached the Baltic Sea. If he and his people decided to die with their comrades and hit the flank - no longer thinking about anything, not sparing themselves, desperately and recklessly, the enemy could flinch. And the chain of Prokop, perhaps, could have done what happened to the "orphans" of Koudelik who found themselves in a similar situation in the battle of Trnava. The chance of success was small, but this was the last chance. The fate of the battle hung in the balance. Jan Czapek decided that the battle was lost and left the battlefield. Prokop the Great and Prokop the Small fought to the end and died defending their Wagenburg. Together with them, many taborites and "orphans" fell - about two thousand people.


Marold's panorama, Prague, fragment

Others, including Jan Rogacz from Dubé, managed to escape the trap: some of them went to the Cesky Brod, some to Kolin. And only about 700 people surrendered to the victors, but the hatred for them was so great that they were driven into the nearby barns and burned alive in them.


Memorial sign at the site of the Battle of Lipany

Emperor Sigismund, upon learning of the Battle of Lipany, said:

"Only the Czechs themselves can defeat Chekhov."

He did not even suspect that one of the participants in this battle, a young utraquist Jiri from Podebrady (whose father was initially a supporter of the Taborites), would himself become king of Bohemia in 1458.


Jiri from Podebrady

The radical Hussites lost both troops and charismatic leaders, their small scattered detachments were defeated everywhere. "Orphans" have not recovered, but Tabor still held on, despite the fact that the radical teaching of this trend of Hussism, proclaiming the creation of "the kingdom of God on earth" (just!) Was declared a delusion and prohibited in 1444.

Let us recall that if we simplify the situation and bring it to a scheme, it turns out that moderate Hussites demanded reform of the church: the abolition of its privileges, deprivation of the right to own land, simplification of the rituals of introducing worship in the Czech language. The Taborites insisted on reforming the entire society. They wanted the equality of "brothers and sisters", the abolition of private property, duties and taxes.

In 1452, a detachment of the already familiar Jiri Podebrad approached Tabor. The remnants of the once formidable taborites had no strength to resist. Those who had abandoned their former ideals were released, the rest were captured and either killed or sent to hard labor. Since then Tabor has become an ordinary Czech town that still exists today.

Some taborites and "orphans" fled the country, becoming mercenaries in the armies of neighboring states. They were readily accepted, since the Hussite soldiers enjoyed a reputation as unsurpassed warriors. Among them was Jan Czapek, who had fled from Lipan, one of the commanders of the "orphans". He entered the service of the Polish king Vladislav, fought with the Hungarians and the Ottomans, but later returned to Bohemia, where his traces are lost in 1445.

In 1436, the so-called Prague Compactaets were signed, in which the heavily curtailed Hussite demands were enshrined (they were actually canceled in 1462).

A month later, Emperor Sigismund was recognized as king of Bohemia.

Jan Rogach, who remained alive after the Battle of Lipany, still held out in his castle Zion, but in 1437 his fortress fell, and he was hanged for refusing to recognize Sigismund as king of Bohemia.

Sigismund briefly outlived him - he died the same year.

So ingloriously, with fratricidal massacre and compromise with the worst enemies, the Hussite wars that shook the whole of Central Europe practically ended.

Czech brothers (Unitas fratrum)


Lacking the strength to resist, some Czechs followed the path indicated by the impoverished knight Peter Khelchytsky, who became the author of the new "Teaching on Justice". He denied war, the rule of the king and the pope, estates and titles. His disciples, led by Rzhigor, began to create colonies isolated from the state, which, oddly enough, spread widely not only in Bohemia and Moravia, but also in Poland, East Prussia and Hungary. In 1457, a whole network of communities had already formed, and their first priests and hierarchs were ordained by the bishop of the Waldensians, which in itself was a terrible crime in the eyes of the Pope and other hierarchs of the Catholic Church.

By the beginning of the 400th century, there were up to 200 parishes of Unitas fratrum, and the total number of their parishioners reached XNUMX thousand people. It is known that even Martin Luther was interested in and studied their teaching.

The state brutally persecuted these communes, but, in spite of everything, they survived, and in the 1609th century, nobles and knights were at the head of many communities. And these communities no longer strived to strictly observe the prohibitions of their founders, mutually beneficial cooperation with the state and its structures. In XNUMX, the Czech brothers were officially recognized by the mystic emperor and alchemist Rudolf II.

At this time, Prague was again one of the richest, most developed and influential cities in Europe and for the second time in its rich stories was the capital of the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation. But in 1612, Rudolph was overthrown by his brother Matthias, who actually abandoned the previous agreements with the Czechs, for the sake of which so much blood was shed during the Hussite wars. It turned out that the traditions of defenestration were not forgotten in Prague, and in 1618 the townspeople threw representatives of the new emperor out the window.


Vaclav Brozik. Defenestration in Prague 1618

This event marked the beginning of the Thirty Years War, which devastated many countries in Europe.

Battle of White Mountain


On September 28, 1618, the Czechs offered the crown of their country to the leader of the Evangelical Union - Elector Frederick V of Palatinate. He was crowned on November 4, 1619, and the new emperor Ferdinand II began to gather troops for a punitive campaign against Bohemia.

In 1620, three armies met at White Mountain. The Protestant army was led by Christian Anhaltsky, the absolute majority of his soldiers were Germans, Czechs were about 25%, and the Hungarian cavalry corps also participated in the battle.


The other two armies were Catholic. At the head of the imperial army was the Walloon Charles de Buqua; the army of the Catholic League, which was formally led by the Bavarian Duke Maximilian, was commanded by the famous Johann Cerklas von Tilly.


Monument to Count Tilly at Altötting Abbey

In these armies were Germans from various imperial lands, Walloons, Neapolitans and Poles. Orthodox Fox Cossacks were also considered Poles (mainly Lithuanians and Ukrainians, Lisovsky himself was already dead at that time). However, it did not matter where and whom to rob. According to European chroniclers, during the Thirty Years War, the foxes "did not spare even children and dogs."

The participation of the Lutherans of Saxony in this campaign was unexpected. Even more surprising is the presence there of Rene Descartes, who moonlighted as a simple pikeman.


Frans Hals. Portrait of René Descartes, 1649

Historical legend says that the army of Protestants was let down by the Prague bureaucrats, who refused to hand over 600 thalers to purchase a trench tool. As a result, the soldiers of Christian of Anhalt who defended the city could not properly equip their positions. (The Catholics then thanked the tight-fisted Prague residents with robberies that lasted for a month.)

However, the position chosen by Christian was already good and in places difficult to attack.

In this battle, the third Catholics defeated the Protestant line, and the Czech Republic lost its independence for as much as 300 years.


Peter Snyers. Battle of White Mountain near Prague

One of the consequences of this defeat was the destruction of the Unitas fratrum communities in Bohemia and Moravia, but in Poland and Hungary they were recorded until the end of the XNUMXth century.

Moravian brothers


And in 1722 the brotherhood was suddenly revived in Saxony, where its ideas were brought by settlers from Bohemia: now they called themselves the Moravian brothers. Here they were patronized by Count Nikolai Ludwig von Zinzendorf, who was even ordained bishop of this community. From Saxony, the Moravian brothers eventually infiltrated England and the United States. Currently, there is the Church of the Moravian Brothers (World Fraternal Unity of the Moravian Church) in which there are autonomous provinces: in addition to the Czech and Slovak, European, British, North American and South American provinces. The number of parishioners is small: up to 720 thousand people, united in 2100 communities.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Ryzhov V.A.Czech Republic on the Eve of the Hussite Wars
Ryzhov V.A.Yan Zhizhka. Scary Blind and Father of "Orphans"
Ryzhov V. A. Taborites and "orphans"
102 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 26 August 2020 05: 30 New
    18
    Great series. Thanks to the author for the work done
  2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 26 August 2020 05: 36 New
    +9
    Valery thank you!
    Catholics and Utraquists had some advantage in strength: 12 infantry against 500 for the Taborites and "orphans", 11 cavalry against 1200, and 700 war wagons against 700.

    In the days of Carthage - they were measured by elephants, in the era of Charlemagne - by knights! In Ivan the Terrible - "attire" (guns). Under Napoleon - battalions. Today - by aircraft carriers! Here are battle carts !!!
    "The outcome of the battle will be decided by the tanks!"
    Good day everyone, with respect Vlad!
    1. rich
      rich 26 August 2020 08: 19 New
      +7
      I join Aron and Vladislav. Thank you. An interesting illustrated cycle turned out
    2. rich
      rich 26 August 2020 08: 28 New
      +6
      Another important consequence of the Hussite wars was a change in the approach to military affairs. The heavily armored knight could no longer feel safe. Any peasant who learned musket shooting in a month could easily defeat a noble knight with one well-aimed shot. In fact, it was the Hussite wars that became the decline of the era of chivalry, the beginning of their end, showing all the ineffectiveness of the old knightly tactics, the unreliability of their armor and armor. The Hussites showed the world that thanks to well-coordinated actions, skillful commands, an ordinary peasant militia can defeat any knightly army.

      And after the increasing entry into use of firearms, which all European armies soon began to actively use, it became clear that knightly armor was not needed at all, because no matter how durable they were, they would not save a knight from a bullet. Medieval knights with their armor and swords forever belonged to history ...
      1. sivuch
        sivuch 26 August 2020 09: 22 New
        +6
        More than controversial conclusions. The fact that the knightly cavalry without support is ineffective against well-organized infantry was proved by the British and later by the Swiss. The firearms were willingly used by the knights themselves as a long arm against the same archers - the Bureau brothers will not let them lie. But at the same time, the knightly cavalry, in combination with the Swiss infantry and the emerging field artillery, will safely survive the Italian wars. But the Wagenburgs did not take root - after all, it is clear that normal art (which is on carriages) will crumble the carts into small chips.
  3. EvilLion
    EvilLion 26 August 2020 08: 14 New
    -4
    In the 15th century there were already Ukrainians ?? After such pearls, the whole article does not inspire confidence.
    1. VLR
      26 August 2020 08: 34 New
      16
      The word "Ukrainians" is used in the story about the events of 1620, that is, the XNUMXth century. Then in Russia they already talked about the Left-Bank Ukraine, as well as about Seversk Ukraine (the former territory of the Chernigov principality), Lithuanian Ukraine (border with Lithuania, some modern Belarusian lands). But there was no longer the Oka Ukraine, as Kashira, Serpukhov, Ryazan lands were called before.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 26 August 2020 10: 47 New
        +8
        Valery! I liked the articles very much ...
        1. VLR
          26 August 2020 11: 04 New
          +6
          Thanks, I am trying smile
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 26 August 2020 18: 39 New
          +2
          Vyacheslav, Anton tried to cook tomatoes in Spanish - amazing !!!
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 26 August 2020 18: 42 New
            +4
            Let him now and YOU ALSO prepare the zucchini pasta recommended at the end of the article + green basil 15 leaves (you can purple!). Then ... then he will - and you too, eat him with spoons, and your wife will thank you three times.
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 26 August 2020 19: 15 New
            +3
            Note that the tomatoes should be 3/4 ripe. Well, like, Saratov "yellow tomatoes", Vyacheslav Olegovich, probably aware of this concept.
            1. kalibr
              kalibr 26 August 2020 19: 24 New
              +3
              Exactly! But, Anton and Vladislav !!! You should still go to the website author.today and order at least a couple of my books there ... That "People and Weapons" (Astra will confirm that it is very interesting), that "Three from Ensk", Nikolay will confirm that .. "Lost on the Highway", and "The Season of Love" is just brilliance ... I don't over-praise at all. "A true cross for the church," as Gavrik and Petya used to say at Kataev's! I won't advise bad people to good people.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 26 August 2020 19: 32 New
                +2
                Vyacheslav Olegovich, with all due respect, I am reading Toynbee here, inadvertently ...
                1. kalibr
                  kalibr 26 August 2020 20: 10 New
                  +2
                  Toynbee is serious. But you can't "seriously" all the time. For the sake of entertainment, I am reading the memoirs of an Englishman who moved to Provence ... Although serious books are there, they lie in a pile by the table ...
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 26 August 2020 20: 17 New
                    +4
                    And I have Toynbee - for a distraction from "give us this day".
      2. EvilLion
        EvilLion 26 August 2020 10: 50 New
        +2
        Then in Russia almost every borderland was called "Ukraine". And talking about Ukrainians as an ethnic group, with whom there were also problems in the feudal era, is the same as talking about the "frontiers" in the United States of the Wild West era.
        1. truck driver
          truck driver 26 August 2020 12: 07 New
          -7
          I don’t know, maybe there were no Ukrainians in your Rus, and in tsarist Russia, Ukraine was also stubbornly called Little Russia - without noticing a whole people with their own language, songs and culture, Valuev's decrees were forbidden, but the people cannot be defeated, only temporarily subdued. In Kievan Rus, they definitely did not exist, and then with the transfer of the center of Rus to Moscow, Ukraine gradually formed its own nation, and the Ukrainians themselves say that they are Ruska, but not Russians, as in Russia, because our common historical homeland is Rus.
          1. EvilLion
            EvilLion 26 August 2020 12: 44 New
            +6
            Tell your stories in your Kievisho, or in Vinnitsa. As for the language, in the 19th century, in any European country, the villagers of the townspeople often hardly understood, in countries united in the 19th century, like Italy and Germany, regional differences in the local language far exceed the differences between Russian and its Poltava dialect, which is actually called the "Ukrainian language", and which nobody knows here, considering the local variation in every village to be correct. Only now the same Germans are actively fighting this case with them, in Germany, in Austria, in Switzerland, there is only one German, no Austrian exists.

            This is just a novelty for Russians, that for 200 km they can speak so that you understand figs, and it is still believed that one language is taught in schools in the same way. Over the centuries, they got used to imperial unification, and especially to universal unified education with the dispatch of qualified personnel to all parts of the country in the last 100, so now both in Kaliningrad and Vladivostok they speak the same way.

            As for the Valuev decrees, subversive literature from Austria was prohibited. Although it is not very clear who read it, since in Little Russia an educated person is either Russian or Pole.

            Well, modern Russian itself was formed in the 18th century, just on the basis of the Western Russian dialect. Nobody spoke at all in Kiev then.
      3. Catfish
        Catfish 26 August 2020 19: 10 New
        +4
        Valery, thank you, really captured. smile
        I hope you don't stop there. drinks
      4. mikstepanenko
        mikstepanenko 26 August 2020 20: 07 New
        0
        Only not Ukraine, but Ukrainian. The word matches the modern outskirts.
      5. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 26 August 2020 22: 27 New
        0
        VLR "But there was no longer Oka Ukraine" are you talking about Zalessky Ukraine?
      6. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 27 August 2020 11: 53 New
        +2
        Personally, it bothered me more that you, out of some fright, have enlisted all the foxes into "Orthodox Cossacks". The noble lords Alexander Jozef Lisovsky and Stanislav Chaplinsky would probably be very surprised at this circumstance.
        And if it comes to that, then the majority of Lithuanians there - that is, the ancestors of today's Belarusians, and not Ukrainians.
  4. rich
    rich 26 August 2020 08: 23 New
    +8
    They say, going to the fire, Jan Hus exclaimed: "I am a goose, but a swan will come for me." These words turned out to be prophetic, since after 100 years the swan really came. His name was Martin Luther, with whom the Reformation began. The consequences of the Reformation were even more devastating for Europe by the religious wars between Catholics and Protestants, in comparison with which the Hussite wars were a breeze. Nevertheless, it was the activities of Jan Hus and the Hussite wars that followed him that were the forerunners of the Reformation, which revealed a deep crisis of the Catholic Church in the late Middle Ages.
    1. rich
      rich 26 August 2020 08: 55 New
      +8
      rice... pavez's crossbow shield (shield), which was very popular with the Hussites

      a photo Hussite paveses of the 15th century. Prague


      a photo Modern Prague souvenir replicas of pavez for tourists
  5. Operator
    Operator 26 August 2020 08: 51 New
    +3
    Taborites are the first and most radical Protestants, representatives of the emerging bourgeoisie.
    1. VLR
      26 August 2020 09: 19 New
      +7
      "Representatives of the nascent bourgeoisie" - this is more likely to refer to the Utraquist-chaplains. The Taborites had a different social base. But the radicalism of the Taborites is yes. Then only the Picart-Adamites "surpassed" them (egalitarianism, freedom of sexual relations, socialization of property, rejection of clothing that hinders communication with God). Jan ижižka first drove them out of Tabor (1421), and then completely destroyed: 75 people were burned at the stake alone.
      Such "preoccupied", apparently, always appear in times of social upheaval, and are quickly destroyed by sensible associates. In Russia, for example, after the victory of the revolution, they also appeared in some places, and gave grounds to reproach the Bolsheviks for immorality. Although the Bolsheviks themselves, for the most part, were shocked by such "fellow travelers" and quickly eliminated excesses - with the help of Mauser and obscene phrases and phrases that were difficult to translate into foreign languages.
      1. Operator
        Operator 26 August 2020 19: 51 New
        +1
        Taborita in this case is a general term.
  6. silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 26 August 2020 10: 38 New
    +4
    good historical material ... I would use this at school))) ... I was especially pleased with the information about Rene Descartes ... from the series "when mathematicians talk about us as bread crumbs")) ... well, you need a pikeman in battle formations ...
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 26 August 2020 11: 18 New
      +6
      One of the clearest examples of the fact that mathematicians are "not rusks" is Omar Hayam.
      Valeria, thanks for the article!
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 26 August 2020 17: 27 New
        +1
        "It was instructed not to drink to someone, maybe.
        Others - to whom and with whom, and how many bowls to share.
        When four conditions are all met,
        Husbands, reasonable, of course, will drink! " smile

        Hi, hello. drinks
        1. mikstepanenko
          mikstepanenko 26 August 2020 20: 14 New
          +1
          Pour more glasses
          Well, who said that we are drunk brothers,
          We are funny just by God
          Who is lying so shamelessly.
          In general, ergo bibamus.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 26 August 2020 20: 18 New
            +2
            Ага. smile "A slacker who doesn't drink with us!" drinks
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 26 August 2020 21: 39 New
              +3
              "Citizen Rhine, do you promise the comrades' court not to drink any more?"
              -Yes! And less, too! "(C)
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 26 August 2020 21: 56 New
                +2
                "Yes, there were times ..." (c)
    2. Engineer
      Engineer 26 August 2020 12: 03 New
      +5
      Descartes at one time wanted to become an officer
      In 1618 he entered the service of Moritz of Orange and attended a military engineer course.
      I doubt about a simple pikeman, but I took part in the battle.
  7. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 11: 33 New
    +7
    Let's sum up the cycle. Valery, you are great. smile
    Perhaps I am not so familiar with the topic, but from the level of my knowledge of the issue, I did not find any significant blunders or distortions, which, I must admit, you sometimes sin, in the articles of this cycle. I like it. good
    On the topic of the article.
    In the last article I have already expressed my surprise and some bewilderment with the appearance and disappearance of this phenomenon - the Hussites. The above distinguished colleague has already correctly noted that
    Quote: Rich
    Jan Hus's activities and the Hussite wars that followed were the forerunners of the Reformation

    But the most interesting thing is that standing in the vanguard of this Reformation and having survived the Hussite wars, the Czech Republic remained a purely Catholic country right up to the establishment of Soviet power in it in the twentieth century. By and large, the Hussite wars left no trace in the internal life of the country.
    Now, however, in the Czech Republic there is a so-called. "Czechoslovakian Hussite Church", but in fact to the Hussites of the XNUMXth century. it has the most mediated relationship, or rather has nothing.
    Militarily, the Hussites were also ahead of their time. Cases of knightly cavalry beating by peasant or city infantry had happened before, but not in such "marketable" quantities, but rather, such cases were scattered episodes.
    Just at this time, Henry V of England, a little earlier than the Taborites, began to destroy the French knighthood with his small but well-organized army, but it did not last long - in 1422 he had already died and his business died with him. The first Swiss mercenaries have already appeared in Europe, but they will take off only in the second half of the XNUMXth century. - thirty years after the defeat of the Hussites.
    It is simply amazing - having found itself, by the will of history, at the forefront of literally everything (economy, religion, military affairs), the Czech Republic, instead of becoming a center of progress and development, as, for example, the Netherlands will later become, a good hundred years earlier to become a "hotbed of the bourgeoisie "- the most progressive class at that time, instantly rolled back into the days of classical feudalism, where it vegetated, turning into the backyard of Europe and indifferently observing from the outside how its achievements and discoveries are openly borrowed and used by neighbors.
    "The first swallow does not make spring." I recently recalled this saying in a discussion with one of my colleagues. Sorry, colleagues, for the politics in this section, but I can't resist. smile I know that any analogy is inherently false, but ... so it begs. smile Something Czechia at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. reminds me of Soviet Russia at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. The same foreign body on the world map. A country ahead of its time.
    And the fate of the Czech Republic and the USSR also turned out to be similar, unfortunately.
    Now smear me, I won't even resist too much. laughing
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 26 August 2020 11: 46 New
      +5
      Why smear?
      The Czech Republic could not become a "hotbed of the bourgeoisie" and the vanguard of everything and everyone.
      The bourgeoisie grows from three roots:
      Debt capital, trade, city privileges.
      All this was not very developed in the Czech Republic.
      1. Liam
        Liam 26 August 2020 13: 53 New
        0
        Quote: Engineer
        Why smear?

        Then they did it with the following text.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 26 August 2020 14: 04 New
          +4
          I didn’t on purpose recourse
          It itself somehow happened
          1. Liam
            Liam 26 August 2020 14: 21 New
            -1
            Hussitism is an ordinary "heretical" course of which in the Middle Ages there were a great many throughout Europe. Naturally, densely mixed in feudal showdowns as elsewhere. Which more or less achieved its goals by the way. To sculpt from this revolution, the bourgeoisie and so on and carry out epoch-making parallels out of the blue - not even funny
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 26 August 2020 14: 36 New
              +3
              I wanted to write about it.
              Not just heresy. And heresy is largely anti-clerical and undermines the authority of the Holy See
              But definitely not unique.
              And its predecessor (one of) and possible inspiration was the ideas of this gentleman from good old England
              1. Liam
                Liam 26 August 2020 14: 52 New
                -1
                Much more curious is that the next The Prague Defenestration triggered a truly epochal 30-year war
              2. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 26 August 2020 20: 21 New
                +1
                Since no one has shown erudition, I am not afraid to seem like a stupid jester! Who is this?
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 26 August 2020 20: 26 New
                  +3
                  John Wycliffe
                  He pushed that righteousness is more important than spiritual dignity and ran into indulgences. And much more
                  Gus most likely became acquainted with his writings in the 1400s.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 26 August 2020 20: 51 New
                    +2
                    Evona how! I thought you'd start with Roger Bacon ... So, I see, the composite does not fit ...
                  2. VLR
                    26 August 2020 23: 29 New
                    +2
                    In the first article "Czech Republic on the Eve of the Hussite Wars" I chose this image of Wycliffe:

            2. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 15: 04 New
              +8
              Quote: Liam
              It's not even funny to sculpt a revolution, the bourgeoisie and so on from this and carry out epoch-making parallels out of the blue.

              I knew I couldn't do without you. laughing
              And now for you an intellectual exercise, handle it - let's continue. Find three major differences between the Hussite movement and all heretical movements that existed before it. Three. It's not much, but you have to turn on your head, and not just grind with your tongue. Even if you limit yourself to two, we will consider this as an offset. smile
              I am not interested in communicating with you in the form that you propose. Try to prove that you are not just a verbal troll, capable only of finding fault with the wording and provoking sarcasm for harshness, but a competent and thoughtful interlocutor with a certain intellectual baggage behind you.
              1. Liam
                Liam 26 August 2020 16: 38 New
                0
                )))
                What I have just read ... Is this an attempt to measure off personal belongings in the rapbuttle format, which is now fashionable in advanced teenage circles, or a boring collective farm quiz?
                In any case, fiercely plus such a courageous act
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 17: 02 New
                  +4
                  Quote: Liam
                  What I just read ...

                  But essentially? wink
                  Well, if so, then we will, apparently, in the future compete exclusively in the ability to offend the opponent, without being subjected to sanctions from the administration. Also, if you think about it, not bad entertainment. laughing
                  So that you understand, this is the level of Bar and others like that, because you still refuse to demonstrate anything more significant.
                  Quote: Liam
                  In any case, fiercely plus such a courageous act

                  Thanks for that. From the heart. I miss your pluses so much. laughing
                  For my part, I'm used to adding only smart, interesting or just funny messages, which I enjoy reading. So do not count on "alaverdi" for my part yet, neither one nor the other, nor the third you succeed. Even as a clown, you are inconclusive. smile
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 26 August 2020 20: 59 New
                    +2
                    Even as a clown, you are unconvincing.
                    When speech, in a negative way, talks about clowns, I start to get upset ... crying
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 21: 41 New
                      +1
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      I'm starting to get upset

                      Not worth it. It's about bad clowns. smile
          2. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 14: 48 New
            +3
            Don't be discouraged, it didn't work out. smile
          3. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 14: 49 New
            +5
            Quote: Engineer
            It itself somehow happened

            Don't be discouraged, it didn't work out that way. smile
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 14: 46 New
        +3
        Quote: Engineer
        The Czech Republic could not become a "hotbed of the bourgeoisie"

        Ready a little, vyalenko so, to argue.
        If she didn't, then she couldn't. What was "if" is not my profile, although it is, I admit, fascinating to discuss this topic.
        Quote: Engineer
        Debt capital, trade, city privileges.

        Here I would replace the word "borrowed" with the word "free", it seems to me, this is more accurate. All this was observed in the Czech Republic, at least not to a lesser extent than among others. The center of Europe, the crossroads of trade routes, raw materials for industry, a dense population, many cities, albeit small, a mild climate - what else is needed? Well, there was not enough access to the sea, yes, but is it that critical? If you think that at that time the Czech Republic was the backyard of Europe, I think you are wrong. The same Germany, it was not much inferior. With the victory of the Hussites, inside the country appeared - for the first time in history! - the very prerequisites for the emergence of the bourgeois state, which during the following centuries determined the historical development of Europe, but not the Czech Republic itself, which was stuck in feudalism.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 26 August 2020 15: 52 New
          +2
          Here I would replace the word "borrowed" with the word "free", it seems to me, this is more accurate.

          For God's sake
          All this was observed in the Czech Republic, at least not to a lesser extent than among others.

          Definitely less. The Czech Republic is not the backyard of Europe. It's just a less favored economic zone
          Have you heard about Czech wines, weapons, armor, cloth, stained glass in the Middle Ages? Me not.
          What about the Czech cathedrals, which are a reflection of the potential of the nation in the Middle Ages?
          In medieval Europe, there are two banking centers - Flanders and Italy. Far from the Czech Republic
          Well, there was not enough access to the sea, yes, but is it that critical?

          This is very important.
          With the victory of the Hussites, inside the country appeared - for the first time in history! - the very prerequisites for the emergence of a bourgeois state

          Where can one observe the significant role of the notorious "third estate" on the part of the Hussites? Zizka nobleman, Oba Prokop of the priests
          Where are the attempts to create a national parliament?
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 16: 21 New
            +5
            To be honest, I am not a great specialist in the history of the Czech Republic, but today I was lucky - I quickly remembered the name of the book, from which I got almost everything that settled in my head about this. This is "The Hussite Wars (The Great Peasant War of the XNUMXth century in the Czech Republic)", the author is Rubtsov Boris Timofeevich.
            Here are some quotes:
            In the XIV-XV centuries the Czech Republic was one of the most developed countries in Europe. Czech peasants and artisans produced a large number of agricultural products and handicrafts. Merchant caravans passed through the Czech lands, moving from the shores of the Baltic Sea to Prague and from there to the Danube countries and to Italy.

            Agriculture was not the only occupation of the Czech population. The presence of a large amount of ore minerals for a long time made the country one of the main regions for the extraction of metals in all of Europe at that time.

            Czech Republic XIV - early XV century was a country with a relatively developed urban life. Of course, the cities of medieval Bohemia only vaguely resembled modern ones. In such a big city as Prague, there were no more than 30-35 thousand inhabitants. But at that time it was one of the largest cities in Europe.

            Czech artisans were skilled craftsmen and engaged in a wide variety of crafts. In large cities and small towns there were blacksmiths and foundry workers, gunsmiths and cutters, metalworkers and coppersmiths, carpenters and joiners, carts and coopers, potters and bricklayers. In Czech cities and villages, many knives, saws, shovels, scythes, sickles, pitchforks, axes, plowshares, as well as wires, needles, razors, etc. were manufactured. Czech weaponsmithing was highly developed, helmets, shields, armor were made. swords, spears, vessels, combat knives, and from the second half of the XIV century, firearms were produced; in the manufacture of large guns - the bombard, the rich experience of Czech foundry workers, who had been casting bells for a long time, was used. Czech cannons were exported abroad; especially widespread use of firearms was received during the Hussite wars.

            Especially I was no longer interested in this topic.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 26 August 2020 16: 35 New
              +1
              The quote is a standard set for any developed European country.
              It is important to note that in the medieval Czech Republic there were no clusters - entire regions with a specialization in the production of individual goods oriented both to the external and internal markets and actively participating in the emerging European division of labor.
              Examples of such clusters are Flanders cloth, Liege lace, Solingen blades, the Dutch and German "herring and salting industry", etc.
              Here it is, the base of the nascent bourgeoisie
              In the Czech Republic, there was a unique, unparalleled resource - silver mines that provided the entire Europe with money supply. But its use and benefits were very specific.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 17: 31 New
                +3
                Each country has its own specifics. But the fact that the Czech Republic itself provided itself with firearms and even exported them to Europe speaks volumes. During the Hussite wars, it was often the superiority in firearms, unthinkable without their own production and culture of handling them, that decided the outcome of the battles in favor of the Hussites.
                They did not have herring, but, for example, beer. smile So with the division of labor and other delights of the advancing capitalism, they had order. smile
                Anyway, in a hundred years, Prague will become the capital of the Empire. smile
                Once again, the essence of the disagreement: I'm not trying to prove that the Czech Republic was the coolest. I want to say that at the beginning of the XV century. she had a chance to take a big step forward and be the coolest. But the forces that could accelerate this movement were not yet sufficiently formed, so the jump failed. The attempt was credible, albeit hopeless. The next one is waiting for another hundred years.
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 26 August 2020 19: 02 New
                  0
                  The Hussite firearm is definitely a plus for them. Speaks about the good development of individual industries. The base was definitely
                  This is probably all.
                  The superiority of the Hussites in firearms is not superiority in technology, but superiority in organization and correct assessment.
                  They did not have herring, but, for example, beer

                  All their neighbors had beer. I have not heard that Czech beer in the Middle Ages was something noticeable. They cooked everything for their own needs. On the international market, strong Flanders varieties, such as double Ghent, were appreciated from memory.
                  So with the division of labor and other delights of the advancing capitalism, they had order

                  Compared to whom? With Poland? Yes. With Germany? Not.
                  And the Germans, in addition to beer, also have a wine industry.
                  And the Germans also have the Hanseatic League.
                  And St. Vitus Cathedral in Prague in the 14th century (the national pride of the Czech Republic) was completed by the Swabian German Peter Parler.
                  And on Dovmont's sword is a wolf from Passau. Not a bowl or a goose.
                  Once again - the Czech Republic is self-sufficient, but in development it is noticeably inferior to its modern Germany. The Czech Republic is not just not cooler. She's on the sidelines
                  Europe in the Middle Ages is a triangle of power France-Germany-Italy. Then the pentagon-England and Spain. Czech Republic is out of this geometry. There is NO special geographical position, unlike the same Flanders
                  I want to say that at the beginning of the XV century. she had a chance to take a big step forward and be the coolest. But the forces that could accelerate this movement were not yet sufficiently formed, so the jump failed. The attempt was credible, albeit hopeless.

                  And here I don't understand at all, sorry.
                  What was the chance?
                  Hus's sermon set hearts on fire? Well, this is not a chance for the Czechs, but they created it themselves
                  What could be a big step forward? Mastering the silver mines purely for yourself? Well, their kings have owned them for decades.
                  What forces gave acceleration to the movement? Petty knights, clergy and peasants. Well, they are fully formed. 15th century in the yard after all.
                  And where is the Czech Jacob van Artvelde if they are so developed? He is not here? Well, so the nascent bourgeoisie is out of business
                  Create a nation state? Well, this is generally fantastic. The Hussite wars are, among other things, the civil wars of the Czechs. In addition to the confrontation with the chalice, there were a lot of interesting episodes. When the inhabitants of Prague massacred the garrison of the Hussites and let Sigismund in. And the only chronicler of all the Hussite wars was a Czech, but he fought for the emperor.
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 19: 39 New
                    +2
                    The firearm is not only an organization, it is mining, foundry, production of gunpowder, nuclei. Usage is just the tip of the iceberg. And that's not all.
                    Beer - the first thing that came to mind - beer workshops have been known almost since the XNUMXth century, and it was quite successfully exported.
                    In addition to beer, I also remembered, it is strange that not in the first place, Bohemian glass is a very high-tech product.
                    I think that thanks to all of the above - a developed mining and foundry industry, self-sufficiency in terms of food supply, active trade, the presence of stable exports, its own silver - all this puts the Czech Republic on a par with the most developed countries in Europe, not lower. For me, it's the highest league, definitely.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    What was the chance?

                    In the confluence of certain circumstances that allowed the Hussite movement to emerge in general and develop to certain limits.
                    Social and economic conditions (albeit not unique), a fiery spiritual leader who managed to formulate a coherent program of church reform, an authoritative military leader who was able to generalize and implement in practice the idea of ​​fighting the dominant military force - chivalry, and all this against the background of a relatively unpopular first person, Sigismund, that is, the weakness of the current government.
                    What could have been? I don't really like to discuss such topics. I just note that the Hussite wars are a consequence of the emergence of those processes that created the Europe that we know, and that for the first time these processes manifested themselves so clearly and so synchronously in the Czech Republic, a good hundred years before they captured the rest of Europe.
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 26 August 2020 20: 00 New
                      +3
                      Hmm.
                      The chance of the Hussites was that they even appeared and like "walk the flaw"? Well, it seems clear, at least for me, topsy-turvy
                      Forget about the artillery foundry of those times.
                      The cores were mostly hewn from stone. And the bombards were made by forging from strips
                      1. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 20: 29 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The cores were mostly hewn from stone. And the bombards were made by forging from strips

                        Yes I remember. smile
                        And, nevertheless, they did.
                        Another thought came to my mind while I was doing household chores.
                        Why are we talking about Germany as a whole? If we talk about the Empire, then the Czech Republic was as much a part of it as, say, Bavaria or Saxony. If we take the Czech Republic separately, then it would be correct to compare it with the individual lands of the empire, probably. And here comparisons will go even more in favor of my position. Probably. smile
                        And another thought appeared. I'll see at my leisure (now football will start smile ) from what "posts" the German nobles rode to the post of emperor at that time. I have a suspicion that it was during this period that it was the kings of Bohemia that became emperors, and not, say, the dukes of Bavaria. Such an analysis can also suggest something, you just need to do it ... smile
                      2. Engineer
                        Engineer 26 August 2020 20: 37 New
                        +1
                        I am not talking about Germany as a whole.
                        Germany is where most German is spoken.)
                        If we take the Czech Republic separately, then it would be correct to compare it with the individual lands of the empire, probably. And here comparisons will go even more in favor of my position. Probably

                        Without numbers, the dispute is pointless at all.
                        I have a suspicion that it was during this period that it was the kings of Bohemia who became emperors.

                        The dukes of Luxembourg were then emperors
                        Where they go to smart or beautiful (Czechs or Germans) I have no idea). Imperial product. According to GOST
                2. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 26 August 2020 20: 31 New
                  +2
                  And on Dovmont's sword is a wolf from Passau. Not a bowl or a goose.
                  I'm terribly sorry, but Dovmont died in 1299
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 26 August 2020 20: 40 New
                    +1
                    This is because German weapons were famous far beyond Germany.
                    There are no similar Czech examples. The goose and the bowl are only confused here, I agree
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 26 August 2020 21: 11 New
                      +1
                      Not. This is to someone who fits what is in the hand comfortably. As it is now. Some people like the Glock, some like the Beretta, but I have a perfect chezet in my hand.
                3. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 26 August 2020 20: 36 New
                  +2
                  Create a nation state? Well, this is generally fantastic.
                  With this - I strongly agree!
  8. kalibr
    kalibr 26 August 2020 12: 44 New
    +6
    I will not smear. Noted correctly!
  9. Engineer
    Engineer 26 August 2020 13: 07 New
    +2
    I know that any analogy is inherently false

    By the way, Mikhail killed a whole line of historical science with one phrase - comparativism)
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 14: 27 New
      +4
      Quote: Engineer
      Mikhail killed a whole area of ​​historical science with one phrase

      Well, Denis, you, too, have now enrolled in the formalists and will dig deeper into the little things? smile Do you need to clarify the meaning of the phrase about the falsehood of any analogy? smile
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 26 August 2020 14: 33 New
        +2
        Well, Denis, you, too, have now enrolled in the formalists and will dig deeper into the little things?

        It was a challenge. By the type of blow with a spear on a hanging shield)
  10. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 26 August 2020 13: 28 New
    +7
    Cases of knightly cavalry beating by peasant or city infantry had happened before, but not in such "marketable" quantities, but rather, such cases were scattered episodes.
    Oddly enough, most of these cases occurred at the turn of the 13-14 centuries. Offhand: Battle of Sterling, Battle of Bankburn, Battle of Courtray.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 14: 21 New
      +3
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Oddly enough, most of these cases occurred at the turn of the 13-14 centuries. Offhand: Battle of Sterling, Battle of Bankburn, Battle of Courtray.

      The series can be continued with the battles of the Hundred Years War - Crécy, Poitiers, Agincourt and the lesser known, "Battle of the Herring", for example. So, in fact, throughout the XIV century, the infantry periodically "stuck" the knights, but there was no question of the systemic nature of this phenomenon.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 26 August 2020 14: 37 New
        +5
        About consistency - no doubt. I think there was a process of accumulating experience with the Hussites, quantity turned into quality.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 15: 09 New
          +3
          This is how I see this process. But after the Hussites, there was also a break in a whole generation - until the Swiss entered the fields of Europe.
          1. VIP
            VIP 26 August 2020 16: 51 New
            +3
            I would venture to suggest that the Swiss won: a) by their solidarity, in contrast to the motley mercenaries; b) military training; c) if you want national pride
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 26 August 2020 20: 44 New
              +1
              The Swiss became the first mercenaries.
        2. Engineer
          Engineer 26 August 2020 16: 02 New
          +5
          Anton, with all due respect, continuity and evolution of the Scots, Flemish-Hussite-Swiss were not observed. Different tactics, different weapons. The social base is also noticeably different
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 26 August 2020 19: 11 New
            +3
            My respect, Denis!
            There is no question of continuity and evolution (although the tactics of the early Swiss differ little from those of Wallace under Sterling, and the social base is parity). The point, I think, is that we have a poor idea of ​​the speed of dissemination and volumes of information in medieval Europe. I will not flirt about the "theory of information fields" so beloved by me, I will only say one thing: any positive experience in military affairs is instantly assimilated, finds application and develops, because "regulations are written in blood." Somewhat pretentious, but somehow so.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 26 August 2020 19: 35 New
              +1
              any positive experience in military affairs is instantly learned

              I have just the opposite opinion)) New is not only born in agony, but also paves the way for itself in agony.
              About the Swiss and the Scots. The Scots were from the Highlands and Lowlands. A significant part of the nobility fought on foot. Formation of battle shiltron - from one to three (Bannockburn). This is a circular formation, which, when attacked, extended into a column. We do not know anything about the number of ranks and rows. The main weapons are long spears.
              Swiss. These are, first of all, mountaineers-shepherds. One of the contemptuous nicknames of the Swiss among the Landsknechts was "cattle-lovers". Order of battle - three battles. The column formation is precisely fixed. That is, there are more ranks than rows. Bataliy three - vanguard, main forces, rearguard. It's almost canon. The battle could attack outright. This was unattainable for the rest of the infantry of those times. The rearguard battle could bypass the enemy and go to the rear. For the Scots, this is too much. The main weapon of the early battle is the galberds. And only then the peaks began to prevail.

              For me, there are more differences. And the similarity is easier to explain by convergent evolution - the need to answer the challenge in the form of knightly cavalry.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 26 August 2020 20: 06 New
                +2
                And the similarity is easier to explain by convergent evolution - the need to answer the challenge in the form of knightly cavalry.
                Duc, and I'm talking about the same thing!
      2. Engineer
        Engineer 26 August 2020 14: 39 New
        +3
        Well, the knights and in general the armies opposing the Hussites were not of the first class)))
        Therefore, systemic gingerbread happened.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 15: 08 New
          +3
          Quote: Engineer
          the armies opposing the Hussites were not first class

          An ordinary feudal host. Knights and other brethren. Why not the first one? And who is the "first"?
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 26 August 2020 15: 40 New
            +5
            The Hussites were opposed by a loose, motley imperial army. Czechs, Germanized Poles, Austrians, Saxons, Brandenburgers, etc.
            The feudal army is primarily its commanders. There, the opponents of the Hussites are all very bad.
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 26 August 2020 17: 43 New
              +5
              Quote: Engineer
              The Hussites were opposed by a loose, motley imperial army. Czechs, Germanized Poles, Austrians, Saxons, Brandenburgers, etc.
              The feudal army is primarily its commanders. There, the opponents of the Hussites are all very bad.

              So where did the Czechs get their commanders from? Jan ижižka is actually an exception! The rest are children of priests, artisans and merchants. Judging by his training, who will be more experienced than the second-class third son of the baron, who studied military craft from infancy, or a tanner who was thrown out on the "high road with an ax horn" by the will of fate two years ago?
              The Hussites were able to put at the edge of the corner a new tactical technique based on a "war cart" and field artillery!
              Now a question? Where did the field artillery come from among the Hussites? And not simple, but based on the chronicle that could be put on Wagenburg! In fact, they created an ideal mechanism for countering the knightly cavalry!
              It reminds me of the appearance of the "crow" on the ships of the Romans! Which allowed them to dominate all the Punic Wars
              A similar situation will eat! The Wagenburg opposition was only invented at the end of the Hussite wars!
              So I think it's worth recognizing that Mikhail was right, there were prerequisites for a bourgeois revolution in the Czech Republic! The presence of a monopoly is not an essential condition for the reformation. The most important thing is economic prerequisites, and judging by the massive use of artillery, they were !!!
              The Chekhov had at least undergraduates from whom they threw those who disliked the peaks. We also lived to see economic contradictions !!! There were free resources, including sebryanny mines !!! Remained a little push, but did not fuse!
              1. Liam
                Liam 26 August 2020 18: 02 New
                -2
                Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                It reminds me of the appearance of the "crow" on the ships of the Romans! Which allowed them to dominate all the Punic Wars

                I doubt that you will remember any significant naval battles in the 2nd and 3rd Punic wars.
                And the Romans invented the "raven" out of hopelessness. It sank many more Roman ships than the enemy. As soon as the Romans learned to really fight at sea, the raven disappeared immediately from their ships
                1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 26 August 2020 18: 29 New
                  +3

                  I doubt that you will remember any significant naval battles in the 2nd and 3rd Punic wars.

                  Oh really? laughing
                  Over a hundred warships on both sides, is this a significant battle or not? We count transport ships?
                  And the Romans invented the "raven" out of hopelessness. He sank many more Roman ships than enemy ships. As soon as the Romans learned to really fight at sea, the raven disappeared immediately from their ships.

                  Poufs in numbers in the studio !!! wink
                  1. Liam
                    Liam 26 August 2020 18: 45 New
                    -2
                    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Oh really?

                    It won't bother you to name them)
                    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Puffs

                    )))
                    Take the trouble yourself: the catastrophes of the Roman fleet at 255 aC, 253 aC e 249 aC, the battle of Trapani and others. Many hundreds of ships and hundreds of thousands of people sank. With this device, the ships became almost uncontrollable, the balance of the ship was disturbed and a small storm was enough for the entire fleet to sink. Therefore, as soon as they learned how to sail, they immediately abandoned it and never used it. more
                    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kote Pan Kokhanka 26 August 2020 20: 43 New
                      +1
                      Battle of Cape Mile - 260 BC The first use of the "iron hand", "crow". Ganibal's defeat, Julio's triumph.
                      Battle of Cape Tindara - 257 BC Controversial result. Carthage lost 8 ships sunk, 10 captured. Rome - over 10 ships.
                      Battle at Cape Eklmos - 256 BC Defeat Hamilcar Barca by the Roman consuls Lucius Manlius Voulzon and Attilia Regulus.
                      Cape Germene - Roman victory in 255 BC (In the Russian edition "History of wars at sea, A. Stenzel Eskimo 2002) a mistake was made, the year 225 is indicated).
                      Battle of Drepanum Harbor - 249 BC Defeat of Consul Claudius from Adgerbal.
                      Success of Cartolon Squadron - 249 BC over the quaestors of Rome.
                      Battle of Eguschy Island - 241 BC The defeat of the Ganges by Katula.
                      It's enough!
                      Now for the crow. A length of 7,5 meters is not fatal for ships 51-52 meters long and 5,5-8 meters wide. During the storm, only a 5-meter pillar 23 cm thick remained. The kovus itself descended.
                      The disasters did not share the ships with and without the raven, they all sank safely in a crowd, including transport ships that did not have boarding bridges.
                      Storms, in principle, did not spare anyone! For example, the ships of Xerox and Darius did not have kovus, but they sank no less regularly than the Roman ones!
                      Kovus ceased to be used not because of the increase in the skills of the Romans as navigators, but since the disappearance of worthy opponents at sea.
                    2. Liam
                      Liam 26 August 2020 21: 43 New
                      -2
                      Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      It's enough!

                      It's a pity that all this is only 1 Punic War (264 - 241 aC).
                      I doubt that you will remember any significant naval battles in the 2nd and 3rd Punic Wars

                      asked
                      Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kovus ceased to be used not because of the increase in the skills of the Romans as navigators, but since the disappearance of worthy opponents at sea.

                      Yes Yes Yes

                      A
                      Battaglia di Azio
                      C
                      Battaglia di Calcedonia (74 aC)

                      E
                      Battaglia dell'Ellesponto
                      Battaglia dell'Eurimedonte (190 aC)
                      M
                      Battaglia di Marsiglia
                      Battaglia di Mionesso
                      N
                      Battaglia di Nauloco
                      S
                      Battaglia di Sena Gallica
                      T
                      Battaglia di Tauroento
                    3. Liam
                      Liam 27 August 2020 00: 54 New
                      -2
                      Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Now for the crow. A length of 7,5 meters is not fatal for ships 51-52 meters long and 5,5-8 meters wide. During the storm, only a 5 meter pillar, 23 cm thick, remained.

                      Let's not fantasize.
                      If you want to argue based on sources, start at least with Wikipedia.

                      In his third book of the History series, Polybius describes this type of assault ladder as a 1,2 meters wide and 10,9 meters long bridge with low railings on either side. Probably, the "crow" in the form of a swing bridge was installed on the bow of the ship....

                      ....Despite a number of advantages, the "raven" had serious drawbacks: modern experiments have shown that the weight of the "raven" should have negatively affected the seaworthiness of the vessel on which it was installed. The Romans almost completely lost two of their fleets in the storms of 255 BC. e. and 249 BC. AD, largely due to the instability of ships caused by these devices. Probably, such losses became the main reason for the refusal to use the "crow" in the design of ships by the end of the First Punic War. As Roman naval tactics improved and more experienced ship crews were recruited, the raven's advantage in battle no longer outweighed the risks of using it. The "Raven" is not mentioned in the sources of that period after the Battle of Cape Eknom, and the Battle of the Aegat Islands, which decided the fate of the First Punic War, was definitely fought without the use of "ravens".

                      If you are applying for more in-depth knowledge, there are works of one of the most profound modern experts and researchers of the fleet of Ancient Rome and naval battles of that period, retired admiral Domenico Carro (http://www.romaeterna.org/vitae.htm) who wrote on this topic dozens of books, a list of which you will find there and are published in the most serious specialized publications on naval topics.
                      Here is a condensed article in the specialized magazine la rivista bimestrale
                      Lega Navale (Anno CXV, numero 3-4 - Marzo-Aprile 2012) one of the chapters of which is devoted to this particular "raven" (about which, by the way, only the Greek Polybius writes, Roman sources do not know anything about the "raven" ... although it would seem ) -http: //www.romaeterna.org/roma/arrembaggio.html.
                2. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 26 August 2020 20: 48 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Over a hundred warships

                  Vlad, don't get fooled by your opponent's tactics. He tears you apart over trifles, finding fault with some trifles, and not a word on the actual subject of discussion.
                  1. Liam
                    Liam 27 August 2020 00: 11 New
                    -3
                    Comrade .. do not get confused under your feet with your 3 kopecks. The opponent is definitely no worse than you and is able to figure out with whom and what to argue about.
                  2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 August 2020 04: 44 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Liam
                    Comrade .. do not get confused under your feet with your 3 kopecks. The opponent is definitely no worse than you and is able to figure out with whom and what to argue about.

                    Liam! I'm writing from my phone so I can't see the name.
                    Trust me, a penny from Mikhail's pen is more expensive than your ruble.
                    Seriously, your communication style is annoying, like in kindergarten whose potty is "cooler". The example above, on your commentary, which could get a good topic of discussion on the kovus, has already been minus! Why's that?
                    Correct yourself, there is no point in splashing poison here!
                    Regards, Vlad!
                  3. Liam
                    Liam 27 August 2020 08: 53 New
                    -3
                    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    rained

                    Because of this, my post did not get any worse or better.
                    Everything else is your point of view to which you are entitled, but which does not pretend to be objective from this. This post of mine, like others, was not born out of nothing, but is a reaction to the rudeness of a Persian. For you Misha is Misha, for me, an anonymous boring Persian, in whose many bucks there is little interesting, but a lot of posturing and cunning
        2. Engineer
          Engineer 26 August 2020 19: 04 New
          +1
          Above I answered in detail to Michael.
  • VIP
    VIP 26 August 2020 16: 37 New
    +5
    Read and baldel. The material is good and the presentation is good. It is a pity that there are very few such authors.
  • truck driver
    truck driver 26 August 2020 17: 00 New
    -5
    Quote: EvilLion
    Tell your stories in your Kievisho, or in Vinnitsa.

    I don't know how it is with you in Maskvadisho and other chigiri, I don't care, you can't argue against history.
    As for the language, in the 19th century, in any European country, the villagers of the townspeople often hardly understood, in countries united in the 19th century, like Italy and Germany, regional differences in the local language far exceed the differences between Russian and its Poltava dialect

    I don’t know any Poltava dialect, there is a normal Ukrainian language, I know a little better from here than the “connoisseurs” from Maskvabad.
    which is actually called the "Ukrainian language", and which nobody knows here, considering the local variation in every village to be correct.

    Come and listen like nobody knows ...
    Only now the same Germans are actively fighting this case with them, in Germany, in Austria, in Switzerland, there is only one German, no Austrian exists.
    This is just a novelty for Russians, that for 200 km they can speak so that you understand figs, and it is still believed that one language is taught in schools in the same way. Over the centuries, they got used to imperial unification, and especially to universal unified education with the dispatch of qualified personnel to all parts of the country in the last 100, so now both in Kaliningrad and Vladivostok they speak the same way.

    I'm happy for you.
    As for the Valuev decrees, subversive literature from Austria was prohibited. Although it is not very clear who read it, since in Little Russia an educated person is either Russian or Pole.
    - Where did you read such game? Wikipedia will help you to get started. Educated Russian - bo ga, Russians in Ukraine were called Mos.cali in the sense of those who came to Ukraine from Muscovy, the Muscovite kingdom. The Ukrainians and themselves were called Ruskyms, not Russians from Russia. In Ukraine at that moment, almost everyone without exception was literate, knew how to read and write, in contrast to the imperial territory ...
    Well, modern Russian itself was formed in the 18th century, just on the basis of the Western Russian dialect. Nobody spoke at all in Kiev then.

    If the government was Russian, then it's a no brainer that all social life revolved around the Russian language, only this does not negate the fact that the majority of the people, the peasantry, spoke Ukrainian language ...
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 26 August 2020 19: 08 New
      +5
      The Ukrainians and themselves were called Ruskyms, not Russians from Russia.


      From how to name something in different dialects, the essence of the subject itself does not change:
      Machine gun or Machine gun - all the same it will be Machinegun, the same will be the "Ruskyms" on your read mobile.
      1. truck driver
        truck driver 26 August 2020 23: 22 New
        -1
        Your problem is in dialects, depending on how profitable you call Ukrainians in Donbass Russians, and Ukrainians in Kiev as Ukrainians. If you understand this way, then Polish can also be called a dialect of Russian, it even seems to me that Polish is closer to Russian than to Ukrainian, I lived in Poland for a month and a half and spent half a month visiting due to work. Only Poles are Poles, and Ukrainians are Russian but with a dialect))))))) So what do you think?
        The whole train left, after Crimea and Donbass, the Ukrainian nation was finally formed and the dreams of unification were finally dispelled. And I don't care about the language, I teach my children Russian and speak it. I am the only organically unperceivable MAask dialect of the Russian language, it seems to me that only perverts can speak like that, although all the Maask youth speaks like that, it's a pity they did not read Pushkin and Lermontov even at school ...
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 26 August 2020 23: 34 New
          +6
          Your problem is dialects,

          I don't see any problems here either for myself or for those around you, you create problems because of your small-town patriotism.
          As for Moscow itself, it is a "port of the seven seas" and the indigenous Muscovites there are an overwhelming minority, and all the same they understand everyone perfectly well.
          And people in Donbass can call themselves what they like, that's their business.
          Good night, I'm sorry, but I don't want to grind water in a mortar. All the best. hi