Military Review

Men and tanks of the Spanish Civil War

71

Spain. Legion "Condor". German tank Pz.1A


We raced dreaming
Comprehend as soon as possible
Grammar of the battle -
Battery language.
Sunrise rose
And fell again
And the horse is tired
Jump in the steppes.
M. Svetlov. Grenada


Behind the pages of the civil wars. In addition to the Italian troops, the German Legion Condor fought in Spain, in which the first 9 tanks The Pz.1A arrived at the end of 1936, and in mid-September another 32 machines were sent. So in the legion there was a tank group "Drone", which was commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Wilhelm Ritter von Thoma. The groups consisted of the following units: headquarters, two tank companies, each of three sections, and the section, in turn, consisted of five Pz.1A vehicles plus one more command tank. The support unit included a transport section, a field repair shop, an anti-tank artillery unit and a group of flamethrowers. Von Thoma later wrote that "Spaniards learn quickly, but also quickly forget what they have learned." Therefore, if the crew was mixed, then the head was always a German and the Germans performed the most important types of work.


Pz.1A in the Spanish city of El-Golos

The very first battles showed that the Pz.IA was a very weak tank. Therefore, in December 1936, supplies of "improved" tanks of the Pz.1В modification began to Spain. The result of German military assistance to Franco: by 1938 in German tank units there were already 4 battalions of 3 companies each, and 15 vehicles in each company. 4 companies (60 tanks) were formed from captured Soviet T-26s, which the Germans used with great success. Well, and stimulated their capture accordingly. So, for the capture of a T-26 tank, the German command gave a bonus of 500 pesetas, which was equal to the monthly salary of an American pilot in the service of the Republicans! By the way, the Soviet "Stalinist falcons" in Spain were paid less than everyone else! For some reason, the Moroccans were especially active in capturing our tanks. Well, in total, the nationalists were able to get more than 150 T-26, BT-5 tanks and BA-10 armored cars in the form of trophies. Moreover, these are only those machines that they managed to put into operation, and they captured some, but could only use them for spare parts.


The Pz.1B had a reinforced chassis and a more powerful engine. Armament has not changed

At the end of the war, there were already seven tank companies, armed with German and Soviet tanks, in the "Drone group". The Germans even opened their own tank school, equipped a tank depot, but in the group itself they constantly had an anti-tank company weapons, a repair shop, a supply company and headquarters.


The coloring of the German tanks Pz.1A. Left emblem of the foreign legion

It is interesting that the Germans from the very beginning behaved completely independently of the Spaniards. For example, there is a known case when Franco personally demanded that von Thom send tanks to attack along with the infantry, and he was not afraid to answer him: "I will use tanks, not spraying them, but concentrating them." And Franco listened to his answer and swallowed it! What? Whoever pays a girl uses her, everyone knows that. Moreover, if we look at what forces of the republicans opposed the Germans in Spain, it turns out that they were not at all great there. If they had 15 tanks in each company, this means that the total number was 180 vehicles *. Fire support was carried out by 30 PTO companies, six 37-mm RAK-36 guns in each. And all these forces did not act jointly, no, but on a wide sector of the front, while in Catalonia alone, the Republicans had about 200 Soviet tanks and BA at a time. And these were T-26 tanks armed with a 45-mm cannon, while the German tanks had only two rifle-caliber machine guns! And what about the Spaniards? And with the Spaniards: the command of the Catalan front assessed these machines as too heavy and at the same time ... not too effective! By the way, that's why they were sent BT-5 tanks. However, even those did not show effectiveness in battles.


Pz.1A and two captured Soviet tanks behind it. It was already at least something ...

But here the question naturally arises: what efficiency did they require from Soviet tanks when such vehicles as T-IA, T-1B and CV 3/35 tankettes fought against them? It was simply impossible to consider them to be full-fledged opponents of the T-26 and BT-5 with their 45-mm gun. They say that aviation Nationalists, due to their dominance in the sky, seemed to bombard Republican tanks and inflict heavy losses on them. However, was it so? It is known that the destruction of only one pontoon bridge during the offensive on the Ebro River required up to five hundred bombs from the nationalists. And how many bombs were then needed to destroy one tank? We must not forget that in the most critical days of November 1936, both T-26 tanks and I-15 and I-16 fighters simply dominated Spain and on the ground and air of Spain **.


The weakness of the weapons of the Pz.1A and B was so obvious that the Spaniards, together with the Germans, came up with the idea of ​​installing 20-mm automatic cannons "Brad" on them in an enlarged turret!

This makes us believe that the most important factors in the victory of the nationalists in the Spanish war were factors such as combat training, military discipline and even skillful command. M. Koltsov in his "Spanish Diary" mentions several times that in the army the nationalists had special sergeants who shot the retreating and cowardly soldiers, and placed machine guns behind the advancing units. Although the Republican General Enrico Lister also ordered to shoot his soldiers if they retreated. And sergeants had orders to shoot even officers if they commanded a retreat without a written order from headquarters. "Anyone who allows the loss of even an inch of land will be held accountable for it with his head," it was said directly in one of Lister's addresses to the troops and, despite this, the republican units suffered one defeat after another.


BT-5 with the tower of the Mariupol plant

Yes, but could it be otherwise if the attacks themselves were carried out as follows. Known, for example, the tank attack of the Republicans at the height of 669. The tanks, not reaching 300-500 meters to the height, opened fire from cannons and machine guns. When the height was 200 meters, eight anti-tank guns from that height opened fire on them. The tanks had no support from their own artillery and therefore retreated. In this case, two tanks were lost and three people were killed, one was wounded, and two were saved. The tanks managed to destroy the two anti-tank guns of the nationalists, and the infantry was able to occupy the north-western slope of the attacked height. The low effectiveness of the attack was a consequence of the lack of intelligence data on the state of the enemy's anti-tank defense and the lack of support from the artillery. And here we can say that if you fight like this, then no tanks simply will not be enough!


He is in the coloring of the nationalists

Another example, just as typical.

On February 23, at 13:00, five Republican tanks were ordered to attack enemy positions at altitude 680 together with infantry. The tanks began to move, but one 700 meters from the target was out of order: the driver burned the main clutch. The second tank dropped the caterpillar and rolled down the slope into the hollow onto its own infantry, but the crew could not put on the caterpillar on their own. Next, the second tank dropped the caterpillar, but its tankers Danilov and Shambolin managed to put on the caterpillar, although the nationalists were firing at them heavily. But ... they missed! The tank joined the remaining four vehicles and continued towards the olive grove, which was the target of the attack at Hill 680. That is, four tanks entered it. But then three of them, turning around on the stones, dropped their tracks. To put on, one tank had to be jacked up and the other was towed back. Fussing with the caterpillars took about two hours. Only after that, the remaining two tanks were able to enter the olive grove and there open fire on the Franco trenches at an altitude of 680. But then the enemy anti-tank artillery, in turn, began to shoot at them, and five minutes later knocked out both of these tanks. The first tank got a hole near the telescopic sight (while platoon commander Eugenio Riestr was fatally wounded), and the tower commander Antonio Diaz was wounded in the left arm. The tank burst into flames, and people jumped out of it. However, the platoon leader died ten minutes later. Only one driver was not injured. At the second tank, a shell hit the gun's mask, and it went out of order, although the crew was not injured. After the shells stopped bursting in the burning tank, he was taken in tow. The fire was somehow extinguished with the ground, the tank was taken to its original position, and it was completely repaired in 20 hours. It is noted that the reason for such serious losses was the lack of artillery and infantry fire on the anti-tank guns of the nationalists, as a result of which all three tanks failed to attack it, and as a result, the surviving tanks returned to the line of attack at 17:00.


BT-5 with standard turret

And what was the Republican infantry doing at this time, by the way? And the infantry just stayed in the ravine to dine. It's lunchtime. All the machine guns of the machine gun battalion turned out to be faulty, so there was no one to support the tanks and there was nothing. Meanwhile, there were two battalions of infantry in the ravine: the Aria battalion together with the carabinieri battalion. Having received the order from General Walter to advance to Hill 680, they dispersed: instead of the indicated height, the Carabinieri moved to the height occupied by the Republicans. The battalion "Aria" nevertheless entered the olive grove. The carabinieri battalion was able to turn and also send it to the olive grove. The infantry occupied the abandoned trenches there, but, although the enemy did not fire almost any fire on the infantry, they did not go forward. Why? But the battalion commander simply said that he would not attack her, but would capture her at night and without any help from tanks. As a result, the tanks with losses retreated to their original positions, destroying only one enemy anti-tank gun. A report was written to the division commander Walter about the actions of the commanders of the Aria battalions and the carabinieri, and ... that's it!


BT-5 in nationalist livery

It often happened like this: the tanks ran out of ammunition or fuel. They went to refuel at the base, but, returning back, they never knew exactly where they would find their infantry, and where the enemy's. Because of this, the number of cases of "friendly fire" from tanks against infantry increased sharply. Moreover, it follows from the reports that they happened almost every day.


BT-5 captured in the battle at Fuentes de Ebro

It was only possible to negotiate with the anarchists about whether they would go into the attack: the form of the order was unacceptable for them! Often they demanded that the "Comandante Russo" take the rifle in his hands and lead them into the attack! By the way, the fact that among the tankers there were losses not only wounded and killed, but also ... those who went crazy, speaks about the situation at the front! By the way, the production of military products at the factories of the Republicans was also completely insufficient, at the fronts there was absolutely not enough of it, so without the help from the USSR, they simply would not have resisted, but this is what no one seriously wanted to admit.

Men and tanks of the Spanish Civil War

Nationalist artillery fires at Republican tanks during battles on the Ebro River in 1938. Figure: Giuseppe Rava

But it is especially significant how in the fighting in Spain both sides used their cavalry.

* In total, about 200 units of German armored vehicles were sent to Spain, according to Hugh Thomas.

** According to Hugh Thomas, a total of 1300 nationalist aircraft fought in Spain at the beginning of the war, while the Republicans had 1500.

*** In December 1938, the Spanish industry produced monthly 100 rifles and 10 million cartridges, 700 grenades and 000 rounds, 300 mines and 000 mortars, which in the most direct way made the Republicans dependent on supplies from Russia.


PS Colored drawings of tanks A. Sheps.

To be continued ...
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  1. rich
    rich 30 August 2020 06: 17 New
    +7
    This is how the Dron tank group appeared in the legion.

    \
    1 - captain from Agrupacion de Carros de Combate in field uniform;
    2 - Major of the tank group of the "Condor" legion in overalls over his field uniform;
    3 - instructor sergeant of the tank group of the Condor Legion with an MG-34 light machine gun.
    1. rich
      rich 30 August 2020 06: 19 New
      +5
      Interestingly, von Thom's tank forces were not that strong in terms of confronting Republican tanks. Its "tank corps" consisted of 4 battalions of 3 tank companies each, and each company consisted of 15 tanks, so that its total strength was 180 vehicles. Fire support for the "tank corps" units was carried out by 30 PTO companies, each with six 37-mm RAK-36 guns. All these forces had to operate on a fairly wide sector of the front.
    2. rich
      rich 30 August 2020 06: 30 New
      +5
      This is how the Dron tank group appeared in the legion, commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Wilhelm Ritter von Thoma

      Wilhelm Josef Ritter von Thoma (German.Wilhelm Josef Ritter von Thoma; September 11, 1891, Dachau, Bavaria - April 30, 1948, Dachau) - German general of the tank forces, participant in the First World War, the war in Spain and the Second World War.

      With the outbreak of World War, on August 2, 1914, he was promoted to lieutenant and sent to serve in the 3rd Bavarian Infantry Regiment (Western Front). On September 25, 1914, he received a bullet wound in the head, remained at the front. On September 28, 1914, he was appointed company commander. October 2, 1914 - the second wound, shrapnel in the right arm. He was awarded the Iron Cross 2nd degree and the Bavarian Order of Military Merit 4th class with swords.
      In January 1915, he was appointed regimental adjutant of the 3rd Bavarian Infantry Regiment, transferred to the Eastern Front, in Galicia. In June 1915 he was awarded the 1st degree Iron Cross.
      In October 1915 - on the Serbian front, the third wound (shrapnel in the chest), was awarded the Austrian Order. At the beginning of 1916 - on the Western Front (Verdun), from the summer of 1916 again on the Eastern Front, participated in repelling the Brusilov Breakthrough. For command in the rearguard battles in July 1916, Lieutenant Toma was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Order of Maximilian Joseph, the highest military award that gave him the title "ritter von" (nobility in the rank of knight).
      From April 1918 - again on the Western Front, on April 25, 1918 he was wounded for the fourth time (shrapnel wound of the left hand). On May 2, 1918, he was appointed commander of a machine-gun company, and on May 14, 1918 - commander of the 1st battalion of the 3rd Bavarian infantry regiment.
      On July 18, 1918, during the offensive of French and American troops in the Soissons area, he was captured by the Americans.
      On October 27, 1919, he was released from captivity, after a vacation from February 1920, Ober-Lieutenant von Thoma continued to serve in the Reichswehr - a company commander, then a battalion adjutant.
      In November 1923 he participated in the suppression of the Nazi putsch in Munich.
      From February 1925 - captain, served in various command and staff positions (company-battalion level), studied at various military courses, including at the Kazan training center. From April 1934 - Major.
      In August 1934 he was sent to the training motorized unit (Erdruf), which became the nucleus of the future armored forces of the Wehrmacht.
      In October 1935, Major von Thoma was appointed commander of the 2nd Battalion, 4th Panzer Regiment, 2nd Panzer Division. Since August 1936 - Lieutenant Colonel.
      September 23, 1936 Lieutenant Colonel von Thoma was appointed commander of the tank unit of the German Legion "Condor", which fought in Spain on
      Since April 1938 - von Thoma with the rank of colonel, upon returning from Spain (June 1939) - awarded the German Order of the Spanish Cross with Golden Swords and Diamonds (the highest degree of the Order, one of 28 awarded). Von Thoma was also awarded two medals from Spain.
      Upon his return from Spain, Colonel von Thoma was appointed commander of the 3rd Panzer Regiment of the 2nd Panzer Division.
      During the Polish campaign, the 2nd Panzer Division reached the San River, on the demarcation line of the zones of occupation of Poland by Germany and the USSR. For this campaign, von Thoma was rewarded with planks for the Iron Crosses of both degrees (re-award).
      From the beginning of 1940 - at the headquarters of the Supreme Command of the Ground Forces, from August 1940 - Major General, Inspector of Motorized Forces.
      July - September 1941 - commander of the 17th Panzer Division.
      Since October 1941, Major General von Thoma has been in command of the 20th Panzer Division, which was attacking Moscow as part of Army Group Center. On December 31, 1941, von Thoma was awarded the Knight's Cross.
      In the summer of 1942 - at the disposal of the command of the ground forces, since August 1942 - Lieutenant General.
      On September 1, 1942, he was appointed commander of the German Afrika Korps. On November 1, 1942, he was promoted to the rank of general in tank forces.
      On October 23, 1942, the Battle of Al-Alamein began - the offensive of the British army against the German-Italian troops. Rommel, who commanded the African army, which suffered heavy losses, intended to withdraw troops from Egypt to Libya, but Hitler gave the order on November 1 to hold the position. General von Thoma, according to some sources, called this order "madness", and on November 3, personally, in one of the tanks, went to the front line.
      On November 4, 1942, General of the Panzer Forces von Thoma was captured by the British
      1. rich
        rich 30 August 2020 06: 35 New
        +7
        Curious fact Secret wiretapping by British intelligence of his conversation with another captive general, Ludwig Cruewel, revealed to the Allies the fact of the development of V-1 and V-2 missiles in Peenemünde
        1. VIP
          VIP 30 August 2020 21: 27 New
          -1
          I read that the allies found Peenemünde on the trail of Fau. An American reconnaissance aircraft recorded a trail in the sand from Fau. And they bombed everything.
          In the book "Shield and Sword" this case is mentioned, but half of the Soviet prisoners left this trace on purpose.
          Then how much I read about Peenemünde and did not find that it was the Soviet prisoners who arranged
      2. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 30 August 2020 07: 54 New
        0
        How asymmetrical is the face ...
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 30 August 2020 12: 01 New
          +3
          Perhaps the consequences of injury? ...
    3. rich
      rich 30 August 2020 07: 00 New
      +9
      Thank you, Vyacheslav for an excellent cycle of "Spanish articles. Great good
      By the way, the drawing of the field uniform of the "Condor" legion tank group I inserted was borrowed from your book

      I hope you won't swear too much?
      1. kalibr
        30 August 2020 16: 25 New
        +6
        On the contrary! When they borrow from me, I am only happy!
    4. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 30 August 2020 16: 49 New
      -3
      drawing, of course, leaves much to be desired)
      1. kalibr
        30 August 2020 18: 17 New
        +5
        In the 90s, it was a pleasure to get even such a drawing!
  2. Captivity
    Captivity 30 August 2020 06: 25 New
    +2
    Such troops cannot win by definition. It's strange that they lasted 3 years
  3. rich
    rich 30 August 2020 06: 51 New
    +5
    Photo tank group "Drone" legion "Condor"







    in the third and fourth photos on the chest of "dronovtsy" is clearly visible a special distinctive sign of the tank group "Drone" of the "Condor" legion
    1. rich
      rich 30 August 2020 06: 54 New
      +8
      And here is a photo of another "veteran" with a similar sign
      1. Yurahip
        Yurahip 30 August 2020 14: 18 New
        +1
        What a kind face a man with glasses has, you can tell me that a fascist ... So, a school teacher teaches physics ...
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 31 August 2020 09: 07 New
          +1
          Quote: Jurachip
          What a kind face a man with glasses has, you will tell me that a fascist ...

          the same dude with his wife. Cuff tape "1936 Spanien 1939"
      2. hohol95
        hohol95 30 August 2020 19: 26 New
        +3
        And yet, which is correct - the group "Dron" or "Drone"?
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 30 August 2020 19: 53 New
          +4
          Quote: hohol95
          And yet, which is correct - the group "Dron" or "Drone"?

          Of course, the 'drone'
          No options)
    2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 30 August 2020 15: 40 New
      +2
      Photo tank group "Drone" legion "Condor"

  4. Catfish
    Catfish 30 August 2020 07: 33 New
    11
    Thanks to both!
    And Vyacheslav Shpakovsky and Dmitry Rich. I looked through everything with interest and pleasure. Perfectly complement each other.
    Sincerely yours, your cat. smile good drinks
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 30 August 2020 07: 56 New
      +6
      Yes. I already wrote that for me Shpakovsky on weekends is some kind of tradition. Good tradition) wink
      1. Yurahip
        Yurahip 30 August 2020 14: 26 New
        +1
        Sunday Shpakovsky is like midday Charlie from Mash (the series is like this).
        1. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 30 August 2020 14: 32 New
          -1
          I remember this episode very well - the whole hospital was betting on whether the "cornman" would / would not get to the ammunition depot nearby!)))
        2. VIP
          VIP 30 August 2020 21: 33 New
          +1
          Is it good or bad?
          I'm interested in reading and looking at illustrations, but for you?
  5. Catfish
    Catfish 30 August 2020 09: 00 New
    +8
    Since in fact I have nothing to add to the article, I decided to post something that corresponds to the spirit of that time.

    Legendary cry.

    Portrait of a famous person.

    Liberal Democratic View.

    Briefly about the relationship between anarchists and communists.
    1. rich
      rich 30 August 2020 09: 48 New
      +5
      But it is especially significant how in the fighting in Spain both sides used their cavalry.

      The Spanish theater of operations was the best suited for cavalry operations. In both armies, infantry brigades and divisions worked closely with cavalry units wherever possible throughout the war.
      Franco had four Spanish cavalry regiments, three Moroccan cavalry cavalry brigades, one Moroccan Civil Guard squadron, and several Spanish Phalanx militia squadrons.
      The Republicans have three Spanish cavalry regiments, eight squadrons of the Civil Guard, two squadrons of the Guard de Asalto, the Polish-Argentino-Mexican four-squadron cavalry international brigade and the cavalry of the training camps.
      During the successful offensives of the rebels, it was the cavalry, and not the armored vehicles, that played the decisive role. An example is the Battle of Alphambra. On February 6, 1938, 2 cavalry brigades of the division of General Monasterio, lined up in two ranks (about 2000 sabers in total), an avalanche hit the Republican positions. They were followed in reserve by the third brigade with Italian CV Z / 35 attached to support. As a result, the Republican division was defeated, the nationalists captured all armored vehicles, artillery, machine guns and even field kitchens.
      a photo. Moroccan cavalry Franco

      a photo.Republican cavalry


      1. Constanty
        Constanty 30 August 2020 11: 36 New
        +7


        Rather, a photo of a Polish uhlan with an attached anti-tank gun kb.Ur.
        1. rich
          rich 30 August 2020 12: 21 New
          +6
          This photo was from the section "Republican cavalry of the Spanish Civil War 1936-39."
          But it is very likely that you are right and this is indeed a combatant Polish lancer. Moreover, the kb.Ur-35 anti-tank gun was not exported before the Finnish winter war.
          I'm sorry I inserted this photo, missing such an important detail. repeat
          And for your attentiveness a huge plus
    2. hohol95
      hohol95 30 August 2020 19: 29 New
      +2
      At the same time, the Spanish "revolutionaries" did not bother to propaganda among the Moroccans! And in general they were not perceived as equals! Europeans ...
      They have not grown to our native Bolsheviks! Who were capable of strong agitation and propaganda!
  6. Catfish
    Catfish 30 August 2020 10: 21 New
    +5
    As a result of the hostilities, it became clear that the German T-I "tanks" were completely unable to compete with the Soviet T-26 and BT-5, which is why Hitler was ordered to urgently develop a new vehicle with stronger weapons. Few people know that such a machine was developed in an extremely short time by Rheinmetall, and even a prototype was released under the Pz.Kpfw.I // Wfp / III index.
    The Fuhrer liked the car, but the tank did not go into production. soldier

    (shutkaumora))))
  7. Fitter65
    Fitter65 30 August 2020 10: 40 New
    +3
    ... the first 9 Pz.1A tanks arrived at the end of 1936, and in mid-September another 32 tanks were sent.
    That is, it turns out if the first 9 came at the end of 1936 - it turns out December, well, or with a big stretch the end of November, then the next 32 tanks, then it turns out they came already in September 1937?
    The very first battles showed that the Pz.IA was a very weak tank. Therefore, in December 1936, supplies of "improved" tanks of the Pz.1В modification began to Spain.

    Here I did not understand at all, if the first Pz IA arrived at the end of 1936, then in what battles did they manage to find out that they were very weak? And what happens is that, in December 1936, already improved Pz.IB began to arrive !!!
  8. Undecim
    Undecim 30 August 2020 10: 59 New
    +6
    The weakness of the weapons of the Pz.1A and B was so obvious that the Spaniards, together with the Germans, came up with the idea of ​​installing 20-mm automatic cannons "Brad" on them in an enlarged turret!

    The idea came from Franco personally. There were two options - Breda Model 1935 or Flak 30. The Italian gun required fewer alterations, so we settled on it. But only four tanks were converted due to the fact that a sufficient number of T-26s were captured and there was no need to rework. The tankers did not like the modernized version.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 30 August 2020 14: 24 New
      +2
      improvisation in GVI was, of course, above all roofs)
      pay attention to the distant "penny" - if I'm not mistaken, there is a diesel fuel sticking out of it)
  9. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 30 August 2020 11: 39 New
    +8
    My respect, Vyacheslav Olegovich! hi Let me tell you my "Fi!" smile
    Whoever pays a girl uses her, everyone knows that.

    Even in my stormy and not very moral youth, the girls first "dined", and then "danced". smile
    "Pay" and "use" - this is definitely not about girls, there are none among those who receive payment.
    Or did you just want to highlight the true essence of the relationship between Franco and Hitler in this way? smile
    In general, I am a little surprised by the sympathy that you have for the Francoists. It seems to me that their ideology and political platform should completely contradict your beliefs, as I imagine them, since liberal values ​​(I write without quotation marks, since I mean liberal values ​​in the good, original sense of the word, and I do not give this phrase the meaning that it has in "broad patriotic circles" now) they were completely alien to them. An ordinary junta, and nevertheless, they enjoy your sympathy and support. I see something irrational in this. smile
    "Shpakovsky for dictatorship" sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it? smile
    And for the material, as always, thanks. If not for you, there would be practically nothing to read and discuss here for almost entire weeks.
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 30 August 2020 12: 34 New
      +2
      The author of the article entitled "People and Tanks ....." tried to objectively and professionally tell about the equipment and people who fought from different sides of the front. Yes, there is no "deep sympathy and compassion" for the republicans in the article, just as there is no "angry condemnation" of the Franco-fascist regime. Purely professional approach. And where is the reason to accuse the author of support and sympathy for the Thracian junta?
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 30 August 2020 13: 25 New
        +7
        Blame? God forbid. Moreover, the author himself, I think, will not dispute that he has some sympathy towards the Francoists. In this article, this may not be so clearly expressed, but there are other materials by the author on the same topic ...
        Quote: ee2100
        Purely professional approach.

        I agree. Vyacheslav Olegovich, in general, in a good sense, surprises me with his ability to maintain a certain and sufficiently high level of publications while maintaining such a large number of publications. But at the same time, a completely objective researcher who does not feel sympathy for one of the parties to the conflict would certainly try to reveal some other issues raised in the article, but neatly bypassed by the author.
        For example, we read about German tanks:
        The very first battles showed that the Pz.IA was a very weak tank.

        What are the battles, how did they go, what are the results, where are the conclusions?
        Or, for example, this passage about the Republicans:
        without help from the USSR, they simply would not have resisted, but this is what no one seriously wanted to admit.

        Can not argue with that. But there is another question: could Franco's uprising have taken place in principle, if not for the help and support of the countries of the fascist bloc?
        Here's another. The author draws completely correct and objective conclusions:
        the most important factors in the victory of the nationalists in the Spanish war were factors such as combat training, military discipline and even skillful command.

        An excellent characteristic of the Frankist army, not to add or subtract. But there is, again, a question: against whom did they need all this - training, discipline, command? Why were they forced to fight against the weak, loose, unorganized, but always outnumbered (and significantly!) Republicans?
        You will say - an article about tanks, and the quotes I cited do not relate to the actual topic of the article. Yes, they don't. But they create just such an emotional background for the article, which allows me to politely and kindly ask the author how this can be.
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 30 August 2020 14: 10 New
          +1
          And again, the article is called "people and tanks ....", and you focus on tanks. The regular army defeated the idealist Marxists and others. What V. Shpakovsky writes about using the word "training". Yes, if it were not for the assistance of the USSR, the hostilities would have ended faster, but he is silent about the gold reserves of Spain exported to the USSR, and in Russian history this assistance is covered as internationalist, incl. and as a test of new types of weapons in military operations.
          It is a pity that the USSR did not draw such profound conclusions as Germany.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 30 August 2020 14: 54 New
            +5
            What are you arguing with? With the fact that the author sympathizes with the Francoists? I do not advise, he really sympathizes with them and, judging by the publications, does not hide this at all, to which he has every right. Or do you want to argue about the civil war itself? In this case, I passed - the mood is not right, and I am reluctant to breed politics here, to dirty the branch.
            Decide what exactly in my comment you disagree with and we will try to continue if the interest persists.
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 30 August 2020 15: 09 New
              +1
              There is no reason to argue. It seemed to you that the author sympathizes with the Francoists, but I believe that he tried to assess the situation as objectively as possible. Professional and nothing personal.
            2. ee2100
              ee2100 30 August 2020 18: 44 New
              +1
              Read carefully. I have not argued with you about anything. I just pointed out that V. Shpakovsky has every right, without curtsey to any side (republican or Frankish), to professionally assess the balance of forces and tactics, as well as the professionalism of the opposing sides. And that's all. And this should be the achievement of this site, without regard to politics and propaganda.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 30 August 2020 19: 01 New
                -1
                Read and you carefully before trying to arrange a discussion from scratch.
                I noted the author's sympathy for the Francoists manifested in his work, and I was interested in how these sympathies can be caused. Note that Vyacheslav Olegovich himself does not deny these sympathies and gave an answer to my question that satisfied me. There was not the slightest attempt on my part to criticize his political predilections or limit him as an author in terms of their expression. What you want to hear from me is completely incomprehensible to me.
                Do you not see in the articles of the author the sympathies I am talking about? It's your problems. I see, and the author himself is aware of them. Your activity, and even expressed in a rather aggressive form, seems to me in this case at least inappropriate.
                1. ee2100
                  ee2100 31 August 2020 07: 59 New
                  +2
                  At 15.09 I wrote that there was no reason for a dispute, and at 19.01 you accuse me of trying to arrange a discussion from scratch! You have some kind of split, at least in time. My remarks are primarily aimed at defending the opinion of the author, not necessarily V. Shpakovsky, no matter what popular opinion the author may express.
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 31 August 2020 08: 47 New
                    0
                    Quote: ee2100
                    My remarks are primarily aimed at defending the opinion of the author, not necessarily V. Shpakovsky, no matter what popular opinion the author may express.

                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Read and you carefullybefore trying to start a discussion from scratch.
                    I noted the author's sympathy for the Francoists manifested in his work, and I was interested in how these sympathies can be caused. Note that Vyacheslav Olegovich himself does not deny these sympathies and gave an answer to my question that satisfied me. There was not the slightest attempt on my part to criticize his political predilections or limit him as an author in terms of their expression.
                    1. ee2100
                      ee2100 31 August 2020 09: 25 New
                      +2
                      That's right, but once again I would like to draw your attention to the time of my comments, yours and V. Shpakovsky's
          2. kalibr
            30 August 2020 17: 21 New
            +3
            Quote: ee2100
            but he is silent about the Spanish gold reserves exported to the USSR

            There will be a separate article about this, it has already been written and is being moderated.
    2. kalibr
      30 August 2020 16: 44 New
      +6
      Michael! You noticed subtly, but ... not quite right. I have sympathy for those who act professionally and achieve success as a result. Because this is typical of smart people. The same Franco spent his "ship" between Hitler and Mussolini on the one hand and Western democracies on the other. He managed to be tough and flexible at the same time. Not every ruler can. So I'm not for dictatorship, but for skill, including political. I do not like it when people take it without being able, without imagining ... Blood flows anyway, but in the first it flows less ...
      1. Liam
        Liam 30 August 2020 16: 51 New
        +3
        Once again, the topic is tanks in Spain.
        Here is a detailed analysis of the Italians on the actions of tanks on all sides in various battles of that war.
        http://www.icsm.it/articoli/ri/spagnacarristiita.html
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 30 August 2020 17: 11 New
        +3
        Quote: kalibr
        The same Franco spent his "ship" between Hitler and Mussolini on the one hand and Western democracies on the other.

        This is yes. yes
        But all the same, the flag under which he came to power smelled badly ... However, this is from the modern bell tower, at that time these ideas were not yet so compromised by Hitler. smile
        That is, in your opinion, everything determines the result? smile
        But I still sympathize with the Republicans, solely for reasons of benefit for the USSR. What would happen there in Spain itself does not bother me much. Although I do not think that the Republicans would have won the war, Spain would have lost something from this ...
        1. kalibr
          30 August 2020 17: 18 New
          +2
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          That is, in your opinion, everything determines the result?

          Of course!
        2. kalibr
          30 August 2020 17: 19 New
          +3
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Although I don't think that the Republicans would win the war, Spain would have lost something from this ...

          The civil war would still be, only it would be even more bloody!
  10. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 30 August 2020 13: 55 New
    +4
    So, for the capture of a T-26 tank, the German command gave a bonus of 500 pesetas, which was equal to the monthly salary of an American pilot in the service of the Republicans!


    The award of 500 pesetas was set personally by the caudillo, which equaled his monthly salary.
    As for the American "contract" pilots in the service of the Republic, in comparison with their fares, this bonus is a mere trifle. The first "pilots of fortune" who arrived in September 1936 already had $ 100 per week under contract + 300 pesetas per month + paid meals and housing. That is, at an approximate rate of 3 pesetas / 1 dollar, this was equal to 1500 pesetas per month. Those who arrived in the next train were already receiving $ 1500 (4500 pesetas) per month. No promises of the caudillo for the captured T-26 stand nearby.
    And yes - $ 1000 for each shot down. In other words, the famous Frank Tinker received from the Republic only bonuses for his 8 knocked down $ 8000 or 24000 pesetas. A lot of money.
    1. kalibr
      30 August 2020 17: 17 New
      +3
      Thank! A very interesting addition!
  11. svp67
    svp67 30 August 2020 14: 12 New
    +3
    Often they demanded that the "Comandante Russo" take the rifle in his hands and lead them into the attack!
    And in the end, our "Russo Turistos" were so trained that they managed to raise the Francoists to the attack for their tanks ... and they walked in good faith.
    Men and tanks of the Spanish Civil War

    Republican tankers



    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 30 August 2020 15: 13 New
      +1
      Quote: svp67
      And in the end, our "Russo Turistos" got so trained that they managed to raise the Francoists to the attack for their tanks ...

      like this?
  12. Yurahip
    Yurahip 30 August 2020 14: 14 New
    +2
    What a strange T-1 tank in the city of El Golos, or the victim of an inept restoration,
    roofing felts some kind of (Spanish) version of the chassis, strange tracks and a leading sprocket. Apparently from some kind of tractor.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  13. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 30 August 2020 15: 11 New
    +3
    The coloring of the German tanks Pz.1A. Left emblem of the foreign legion

    Of the Spanish Legion. Until May 8, 1937. - Moroccan third.
  14. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 30 August 2020 16: 47 New
    +4
    tank group "Drone"


    what other "drone" ??
    Drohne - pronounced "drone" (drone)
    it is reminiscent of how ignorant people say "Porsche" instead of "Porsche".
  15. kalibr
    30 August 2020 17: 15 New
    +2
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    What would happen there in Spain itself does not bother me much.

    There will be several articles about this!
  16. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 30 August 2020 20: 51 New
    +1
    ... get more than 150 T-26, BT-5 tanks and BA-10 armored cars in the form of trophies.

    Was the BA-10 delivered to Spain?
    1. rich
      rich 30 August 2020 22: 02 New
      +1
      Of course not. This is a banal mistake. The author naturally meant BA-6 (BA-3)
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 31 August 2020 08: 35 New
        0
        Quote: Rich
        This is a banal mistake. The author naturally meant BA-6 (BA-3)

        Yes, this is not a "mistake". The author does not hide his special reverence for Hugh Thomas, with whose light hand this mess about the BA-10 went for a walk on all foreign works in this topic. Moreover, this mythical BA-10 was armed with a 37 mm cannon. The only emnip Soviet wheeled tank armed in this manner was the BA-I with its 37mm Hotchkiss, but its presence in Spain is controversial.
        By the way, going back to Drona - a number of sources claim that it was the BA-10, allegedly in service with the Paris Commune battalion of the 11th International Brigade (!!), who were the first to try the Pz.KpfW I Ausf. A at the very beginning of November 36th. This, of course, is nonsense, as is the replicated version of Baryatinsky (with all due respect to his authority as a tank scientist) that the combat debut of the Pz.KpfW I of the Drone group took place on October 28 in the Sesenyi / Esquias area.
        But what's the difference?
        1. VIP
          VIP 31 August 2020 14: 19 New
          0
          Baryatinsky is perhaps the most famous tank scientist. At least I can't name others
  17. VIP
    VIP 30 August 2020 21: 05 New
    +1
    "In total, the nationalists were able to fill in the form of trophies more than 150 T-26 and BT-5", but what about the Republicans with the trophies? Probably there are some numbers?
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 30 August 2020 23: 19 New
      0
      I think such information is difficult to find. The losers eventually lost all their trophies. but there are photographs of a broken Italian column and an inspection of its equipment by the Republicans.
      1. VIP
        VIP 31 August 2020 14: 13 New
        +1
        Generally, broken and captured vehicles make a big difference.
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 31 August 2020 16: 32 New
          +2
          that's quite a whole "penny")
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 31 August 2020 22: 18 New
            0
            There is a similar photo, but with the participation of Japanese soldiers.
            The Kuomintang army used "kopecks" and naturally the Japanese took them as trophies. But I did not come across any information about the use of these vehicles by Japanese tankers.
        2. hohol95
          hohol95 31 August 2020 17: 42 New
          -2
          To understand the degree of damage to equipment, one must witness this and examine the equipment with your own eyes!
          And navryatli Republicans could use Italian tankettes. Ammunition in the right quantity, where to get it?
          There are trophies today - not tomorrow!
          At the same time, there are supplies of equipment from the USSR. Why then bother with "Italian boxes".
          1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 31 August 2020 18: 28 New
            +1
            Quote: hohol95
            Ammunition in the right quantity, where to get it?

            What are the problems with the Fiat Reveli cartridges? They were produced in Spain under license, which is 6.5, which is 8 mm.

            Quote: hohol95
            And navryatli Republicans could use Italian tankettes.


            oh well, why would? They are not Ethiopians, who, during the Second Abyssinian trophy carro, could not give sense.
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 31 August 2020 22: 11 New
              +1
              If the Spaniards, that the Republicans, that the Francoists were “jack of all trades” why did they ask for help around the world?
              We even bought "Mosinka" guns that were rearranged by the Poles under the German cartridge!
              So why were they sent tanks and planes from the USSR - couldn't they have produced all this themselves?
              Do you have data on the use of captured Italian and German tankettes by the Republicans?
              I have not seen such information.
              But the Germans used the captured Spanish BA they captured in France.
              The Republicans retreated to France and the French got the remnants of their armored vehicles.
            2. hohol95
              hohol95 31 August 2020 22: 23 New
              0
              What are the problems with the Fiat Reveli cartridges? They were produced in Spain under license, which is 6.5, which is 8 mm.

              For what weapon did the Spaniards produce such cartridges if they themselves used the 7x57 cartridge?