Military Review

Why Trotsky was killed

328
Why Trotsky was killed

The theorist of the world revolution was killed 80 years ago. On August 21, 1940, Leon Trotsky died. He never managed to organize a stab in the back of Russia during the Second World War.


Stalin summed up the results of Trotsky's activities:

“A man has gone to his grave, whose name is pronounced with contempt and curse by the working people all over the world, a man who for many years has fought against the cause of the working class and its vanguard, the Bolshevik Party. The ruling classes of the capitalist countries have lost their faithful servant. Foreign intelligence lost a long-term, hardened agent who did not disdain any means to achieve his counter-revolutionary goals. "


An attempt at a new stab in the back of Russia


During World War II, Trotsky and his associates tried to carry out an operation, which they successfully carried out during the First World War. The "fifth column" in Russia-USSR was supposed to strike at the Stalinist empire at the time of its war with Germany (possibly Japan). Trotskyists, internationalist revolutionaries associated with the Anglo-Saxon intelligence services and the financial oligarchy of London and Washington, have successfully destroyed the Russian autocracy and the Russian Empire. However, after the death of Lenin, Trotsky did not manage to seize control in his own hands, he was defeated by the Russian communists, supporters of Stalin.

Stalin abandoned the idea of ​​a permanent world revolution. In fact, in the USSR, many foundations and traditions of the Russian Empire were revived. The foreign and domestic policy of the Stalinist government was in the interests of the state and the people. Moreover, Stalin and his associates were able to defeat most of the left deviators, Trotskyists and internationalists. Trotsky was exiled in 1929. But he retained a strong position in the Red Army and the nomenclature. Only the "Great Purge" made it possible to eliminate most of the "fifth column" in the USSR (How Stalin defeated the "fifth column"). Especially in the leadership and the army. Underground subversive structures in the country were destroyed. As a result, the Soviet Union passed the test of war. The actions of the Nazi separatists in the Baltics and Ukraine could not undermine the unity of the state and the people.

Liquidation of Trotsky


The Moor did his job. Trotsky was privy to practically all the secrets of the first and second revolutions in Russia in 1905-1907. and 1917 respectively. He knew a lot about the affairs of the so-called. the world behind the scenes (the global financial oligarchy), much more than Radek or Rakovsky. He knew how the Russian Empire was killed, how the Second Reich was used against the Russians, and then the Kaiser was overthrown. At one time, Lev Davydovich helped to arrange a revolution in Germany.

The Trotskyists have established contacts with the Abwehr. There was a threat that Hitler would receive information that would significantly expand his measure of understanding. The owners of England and the USA did not need this at all. Also the Trotskyists were a threat to the USSR. In the Soviet Union, most of the "werewolves" and "rats" were destroyed, but Stalin knew well that in a world war, such a revolutionary authority as Trotsky could become a serious threat. It was necessary to destroy the very possibility of a new "front" against Russia. In addition, Trotsky himself was "running up". His work against Stalin became more and more dirty, more and more defiant. They were becoming more and more personal. Such publications pushed Moscow to retaliate.

Here the interests of the USA and the USSR coincided. In 1936, Lev Davidovich was expelled from Norway. He was forced to move to Mexico, settling in Coyoacan, a suburb of Mexico City. Trotsky turned his villa into a fortress. He feared assassination attempts. And he feared, apparently, not only the NKVD. So, Trotsky was unable to move to the United States. Despite wanting to be an American citizen. He was refused. Trotsky ceased to be of interest to the Anglo-Saxon special services. The Trotskyist network in Russia was practically destroyed. That is, his role, the role of a possible replacement for Stalin, was lost. Leon Trotsky was unable to create a strong network in the world. The revolutionary wrote a number of works, muddied Stalin, accused him of "Bonapartism", declared that he had betrayed the "cause of the revolution" and got in touch with Hitler. In 1938 he created the IV International. However, after the Spanish adventure (where the Trotskyists lured a lot of volunteers from all over the world), which ended in a heavy defeat, the prestige of this organization fell sharply. The International began to disintegrate. In addition, Trotsky's eldest son, Lev Sedov, died, on which the organization was held (the leader of the world revolution himself devoted almost all of his time to literary creativity).

Thus, the theorist of the world revolution has exhausted himself. In the United States, a book by Colonel House was published, where it was quite clearly shown whose agent Trotsky was in fact, whose instructions he followed. In 1939, this one was published from top to bottom in the USSR. This could only happen with the permission of the Soviet leader. That is, Trotsky, as a "long-term, hardened agent" of the West, was "exposed". And overexposed agents are usually destroyed. Stalin personally gave the indication of the operation to liquidate Lev Davidovich. In the NKVD, she was led by Beria and Deputy General Sudoplatov. Direct leadership was carried out by Naum Eitingon (Operation Duck). He was an experienced intelligence officer, organizer of foreign espionage and sabotage operations.

Interestingly, in March 1940, Harvard University bought from Trotsky the rest of his archives (about 20 thousand storage units). The purchase happened just in time. Lev Davidovich's archives did not fall into unwanted hands. In May, a group of militants led by the communist artist Siqueiros, dressed in police uniforms, attacked Trotsky's villa (the operation was led by an NKVD agent). The attackers broke into the building, riddled the walls and disappeared. True, due to the inexperience of the attackers (these were miners, workers, participants in the war in Spain, and not experienced killers), Lev Davydovich and his wife, lying on the floor, survived. At the same time, the group was supposed to seize Trotsky's archive, but he was no longer in the building.

Then Eitingon performed another operation. On August 20, 1940, another Soviet agent, Ramon Mercader, eliminated the "demon of the revolution." He penetrated his entourage as a convinced supporter of his and brought him his manuscript. Trotsky sat down to read it, and Mercader stabbed him in the head with an ice pick. Lev Davydovich received a mortal wound and died on August 21. He wished to be buried in the USA. But America, which he valued so much, for which he did so much, ensuring the collapse of its main competitors, the Russian and German empires, refused to accept his ashes. He was buried in the yard of his own house.

Mercader was thrown into prison, tortured. But he didn't break. He insisted that he was a Canadian, Frank Jackson, that he killed Trotsky because of his love for his secretary Sylvia (the leader of the world revolution was noted in many love scandals) and because the Trotskyists squandered the money he donated to the party. The killer served 20 years, and after his release he arrived in Moscow, where he received the Order of Lenin and the Star of the Hero of the Soviet Union.
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  1. horus88
    horus88 21 August 2020 05: 44 New
    33
    Trotsky was killed because he was an enemy. That's all.
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 21 August 2020 05: 50 New
      17
      August 21, 1940 is the day of a happy meeting between Trotsky and the ice ax!
      1. Ragnar Lodbrok
        Ragnar Lodbrok 21 August 2020 05: 51 New
        33
        Yes, his hands are not up to the elbows, but up to the shoulders in blood, there he is dear.
        1. CSKA
          CSKA 21 August 2020 11: 20 New
          -13
          Quote: Ragnar lodbrok
          Yes, his hands are not up to the elbows, but up to the shoulders in blood, there he is dear.

          I agree. And Stalin, by the way, is not up to the elbows?
          1. Fitter65
            Fitter65 21 August 2020 15: 09 New
            16
            Quote: CSKA
            And Stalin, by the way, is not up to the elbows?

            Iosif Vissarionovich has them, hands, in labor corns, from the labors of the righteous to raise the country from devastation, and raise it to the level of world powers, because the USSR on May 9, 1945 is not the Russian Empire for you on September 5, 1905 ...
            1. Dr. Frankenstucker
              Dr. Frankenstucker 21 August 2020 15: 31 New
              -18
              ... Joseph Vissarionovich has them, hands, in working calluses, from the works of the righteous

              What kind of nonsense you can not read on VO.
              1. Fitter65
                Fitter65 21 August 2020 16: 57 New
                +6
                Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
                What kind of nonsense you can not read on VO.

                You just watch the central TV channels. And on VO such as you, "the title of the book by F. M. Dostoevsky of 4 (four) letters", the truth always seems to be nonsense ...
                1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                  Dr. Frankenstucker 21 August 2020 18: 07 New
                  -4
                  ... And on VO such as you, "the title of the book by F. M. Dostoevsky of 4 (four) letters


                  What a mystery. Are demons considered obscene on VO?
                  1. Fitter65
                    Fitter65 21 August 2020 23: 30 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
                    Are demons considered obscene on VO?

                    No other novel. The first letter is "and".
                    1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                      Dr. Frankenstucker 22 August 2020 09: 00 New
                      +1
                      ... the title of the book by F. M. Dostoevsky of 4 (four) letters ",

                      ... No other novel. The first letter "and"
                      .
                      Strange, but the feeble-minded 'intellectual' who is unable to count the letters in the word 'idiot' is so actively favored. Apparently, for the cretinous thesis about Stalin's calloused hands. Do you really think that the number of tsatseks and the experience of sticking to the BO adds points to the IQ? That is, you do not realize that you, sorry, have turned up? I sympathize
                    2. Local from the Volga
                      Local from the Volga 23 August 2020 00: 28 New
                      0
                      do not disgrace shoulder straps, poor!
                2. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 21 August 2020 20: 13 New
                  0
                  Quote: Fitter65
                  Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
                  What kind of nonsense you can not read on VO.

                  You just watch the central TV channels. And on VO such as you, "the title of the book by F. M. Dostoevsky of 4 (four) letters", the truth always seems to be nonsense ...

                  "If the revolution is not extended to the industrially developed countries, socialism in Russia will be a temporary phenomenon." Trotsky's words. He was right. ))
                  1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                    Dr. Frankenstucker 21 August 2020 20: 48 New
                    0
                    ... Trotsky's words. He was right. ))

                    In essence, he interpreted the words of Comrade Friedrich Friedrichovich E.
                    1. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 21 August 2020 21: 31 New
                      -2
                      And he interpreted Engels - but the essence is the same
                      1. Dr. Frankenstucker
                        Dr. Frankenstucker 21 August 2020 21: 57 New
                        +1
                        ... And he interpreted Engels

                        Well actually, saying
                        ... Comrade Friedrich Friedrichovich E.

                        I also meant it.
                      2. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 21 August 2020 22: 27 New
                        -1
                        Here - I cheto glitch on Felix Edmundovich laughing
                3. Kwas
                  Kwas 22 August 2020 13: 42 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  "If the revolution is not extended to the industrially developed countries, socialism in Russia will be a temporary phenomenon." Trotsky's words. He was right. ))

                  About rightness you are wrong. He said this about something completely different, namely in the direct military aggression of the capitalist countries. The idea of ​​ideological sabotage by the capitalist countries, both of them (either to Engels or to Trotsky), could not even enter into their heads!
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 22 August 2020 16: 00 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Kwas

                    About rightness you are wrong. He said this about something completely different, namely in the direct military aggression of the capitalist countries. The idea of ​​ideological sabotage by the capitalist countries, both of them (either to Engels or to Trotsky), could not even enter into their heads!

                    I think he was talking about the difference in the level of development of countries and, ultimately, about the loss of popularity of the idea of ​​socialism in Russia. He himself lived in Europe.
                    1. Kwas
                      Kwas 22 August 2020 16: 10 New
                      +1
                      I don't think we read Trotsky. He could think so, but after the breakthrough of the 1930s, it was difficult to think so. Is that from emigration. But the fear of direct aggression was definitely there.
                    2. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 22 August 2020 16: 27 New
                      +3
                      How have you not read it? I have read "My Life".
                    3. Kwas
                      Kwas 22 August 2020 16: 32 New
                      +1
                      Wow! So what, he said exactly that there, in plain text?

                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      about the difference in the level of development of countries and, ultimately, about the loss of popularity of the idea of ​​socialism in Russia.
                    4. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 22 August 2020 16: 36 New
                      +2
                      I don't remember by heart, but the thought, in general, is
                    5. Kwas
                      Kwas 23 August 2020 07: 42 New
                      +3
                      Well, well, it is quite possible that you are right, the way it is. But you can turn the question in another way, that Trotsky's thoughts were used by bourgeois ideologists and propagandists in their undoubtedly successful propaganda work. Or perhaps Trotsky just voiced the thoughts of his fellow patrons from among the Jewish oligarchs. I must say right away that this connection has not been proven.

                      This thought reminded me of something else. Mr. Rezun, (writing under the pseudonym Viktor Suvorov), put the same idea in the mouth of Hitler, quoting it in his book "Purification".

                      "The Soviet Union could exist only on one condition: if the people did not have the opportunity to compare their life with the life of the surrounding countries. Therefore, Stalin's main idea is to destroy the capitalist encirclement. Therefore, all Stalinist volumes are so simple, logical and understandable: the complete victory of socialism is country, but the final - only on a global scale.
                      All of Stalin's speeches, all speeches, all plans are permeated with this.
                      But Hitler also understood this: "The bolshevized world will be able to hold on only if it embraces everything" (Mein Kampf. Ch. 2. Ch. XIII). "

                      However, in reality, Hitler said something quite different. Here's a more complete quote from there:
                      "But the Jews now hold in their hands not only the old world. No, the same fate threatens the new world. Jews are the real bosses of the stock exchange in the United States of North America. ...
                      ... And now the Jews are afraid that next to a large herd of peoples, which they are increasingly managing to turn into their colonies and deprive all features of their own nationality, there would be at least one truly independent state that at the last minute could ruin the whole game Jews. For the Bolshevized world will only be able to
                      in case it covers everything.
                      If at least one truly national state of sufficient size survives in the world, then the Jewish world satrapy will inevitably perish in the struggle against the national idea. Such is the fate of any tyranny in
                      this world. "

                      That is, he did not mean communism at all, but the worldwide Jewish financial oligarchy. He repeats this many times in the book. I must say right away that I myself speak differently. Just a hereditary financial oligarchy. No nationality.
                    6. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 23 August 2020 18: 03 New
                      +6
                      Hitler said that the Jews are evil, because they:
                      1) Communists are internationalists who undermine the national component of states
                      2) Financial tycoons - depriving peoples of financial independence
                      As a result, he attributed two mutually exclusive things to the Jews. Struggle for a global society without the right to private property and the construction of oligarchic schemes laughing And the Germans hawala this nonsense.
                      Although the only interaction between Jewish socialists (including communists-anarchists) and financiers was a purely national Zionist project, which implies the territorial and state separation of Jews from other peoples.
      2. Outsider
        Outsider 26 August 2020 15: 35 New
        0
        - "If the revolution is not extended to the industrially developed countries, socialism in Russia will be a temporary phenomenon."
        Actually, guys, these are the words of Lenin. Written in one of the works before the October Revolution. But, of course, both Trotsky and Stalin agreed with them, - The World Revolution must be done! .. Only Trotsky spoke of "permanent revolution", while Stalin preferred to act deeply in secrecy and create the Icebreaker of the World Revolution - Adolf Hitler's Germany ... Of course, Stalin's concept was much more practical and realistic ...
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 26 August 2020 19: 24 New
          +3
          And the results are very impressive ..
  2. phair
    phair 22 August 2020 09: 12 New
    -2
    And he picked up the Frankensteiner
    Fitting natser, devkenherzer
    Salvarsan
    and bumps with pepper on your lip!
    Hey, you registered in May this year, don't touch Stalin.
    And on the subject: liberda asks why Khodarkovsky is sitting? And I ask: why is he one of the oligarchs? It's good that the Juda was not only chipped;)
    1. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 22 August 2020 10: 42 New
      +2
      ... don't touch Stalin.

      Insulting the feelings of believers? laughing
      ... And on the subject: liberda asks why Khodarkovsky is sitting?

      You, apparently, have your own theme. Does it itch badly?
      1. phair
        phair 22 August 2020 10: 46 New
        -7
        Blind kittens are quickly registered and commented on. But if they are paid for the camment:
        Pagib couple
        from ladies' tricks
        from ladies' tricks
        Pagib couple
        And he picked up the Frankensteiner
        Fitting natser, devkenherzer
        Salvarsan
        and bumps with pepper on your lip!
        Would you hiss sip, poor!

        You, apparently, have your own theme. Does it itch badly?
        1. Dr. Frankenstucker
          Dr. Frankenstucker 22 August 2020 11: 00 New
          +3
          ... Would you hiss sip, poor!

          Even how)
          That is, it is allowed to be rude here if only * for the type of you with a bunch of funny tsatseks?
          Or the fact that you stink on VO since some shaggy year?
          Who are you anyway, pretzel?
          1. phair
            phair 22 August 2020 11: 02 New
            -9
            Fuck off, you, multi-vector, colored. Everyone knows who you are: an arrogant member of the Magadan LGBT club.
          2. Dr. Frankenstucker
            Dr. Frankenstucker 22 August 2020 11: 07 New
            +2
            . Yes fuck off, you,

            Actually, would * dlan, it was you who got out from behind the plinth with your clumsy comments. Are you blue in the morning? Well, I was not surprised by the manner in which everything was reduced to pederasty - this is your main rhetorical technique ..
          3. phair
            phair 22 August 2020 11: 11 New
            -12
            Yes, all your comments are as clumsy as a crankshaft, from which, after the brake, which your mother drank until she was satisfied with a real Trotskyist;)
            https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9,_%D0%95%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%8F%D0%BD_%D0%9C%D0%B8%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87
          4. Grim Reaper
            Grim Reaper 22 August 2020 14: 10 New
            +5
            One of the downsides is mine. Do not be rude.
          5. phair
            phair 22 August 2020 14: 19 New
            -4
            I'm ahead of the curve, I'm not in the mood to be rude. I can answer, Stalin cannot: (without obi., Is it necessary to swaddle the newborns tightly? We must immediately let them understand where they got to.
          6. Kwas
            Kwas 22 August 2020 16: 38 New
            0
            And 4 or 5 more are mine. Both. For the same reason.
  • Danila46
    Danila46 21 August 2020 16: 51 New
    -2
    ha ha! that's really funny. idolater...
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 21 August 2020 17: 01 New
      +7
      Quote: Danila46
      ha ha! that's really funny. idolater...

      An atheist is not an idolater. Unlike Christians, they are real idolaters.
      1. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 21 August 2020 18: 10 New
        -2
        ... An atheist is not an idolater.

        It is difficult to attribute the sect of Stalinist worshipers to the atheists. Their love for the leader sometimes reaches the level of religious ecstasy.
        1. Kwas
          Kwas 22 August 2020 13: 50 New
          +1
          Of course, not all of Stalin's admirers are atheists. However, these are not synonyms at all. And the correlation will most likely be negative.
      2. Danila46
        Danila46 21 August 2020 19: 19 New
        -1
        but how do you call a person who raises the face of a politician in a row of saints and untouchables ???
        1. Fitter65
          Fitter65 21 August 2020 23: 31 New
          +9
          Quote: Danila46
          but how do you call a person who raises the face of a politician in a row of saints and untouchables ???

          "United Russia"
          1. Dr. Frankenstucker
            Dr. Frankenstucker 22 August 2020 11: 02 New
            +4
            Quote: Fitter65
            United Russia

            There is no difference between you. Only faces on your icons)
      3. Esoteric
        Esoteric 21 August 2020 19: 46 New
        -5
        I like atheists. Although they are atheists ... Alleged conversation with someone who calls himself an atheist:
        “I heard that you are the greatest atheist. I am also an atheist and would like to listen to your arguments and learn.
        - So you are an atheist?
        - Yes, I do not believe in any gods. There is none of them.
        - Well, interesting ... But listen to me. Have you read the Bible, Koran or the Apocrypha?
        - No, but ...
        - Don't over-drink, please. Have you talked with priests, priests, imams?
        - No.
        - Have you made pilgrimages to holy places?
        - No, but why? I don’t believe that.
        - Did you live in the hermitage, observing their life and talking with them?
        - No.
        - Well, then you are not an atheist.
        - And who am I then?
        Ignorant!
        Not this way?
        1. Kwas
          Kwas 22 August 2020 14: 01 New
          +3
          I know, also an atheist. But to all questions (except for the pilgrimage) I will answer "Yes".
          Believers are more interesting in this sense. It is logical to assume that they at least know what they believe. However, no. Until now, no believer has been able to tell me exactly what he believes in!
          1. Esoteric
            Esoteric 23 August 2020 08: 50 New
            +2
            Well, you are the same believer. You believe that the universe came from nothing. From a certain point, which is not clear where it came from, and where it was. And then, you see, it exploded, and it started running. Everything arose from them, but where did this nothing come from, which was unknown before him, this "point" came and appeared. In my opinion, your faith is more illogical and absurd.
            1. Kwas
              Kwas 24 August 2020 22: 05 New
              +3
              Quote: Ezoterik
              Well, you are the same believer. You believe that the universe came from nothing. From a certain point, which is not clear where it came from, and where it was.

              Not at all. I am a physicist, one might say a scientist, and as a scientist I understand that these statements of modern cosmogony are built on a very weak evidence base and arbitrary postulates. Personally, I am impressed by the hypothesis of an eternal and infinite universe, but it also cannot be proved. I am humble in the sense that I do not try to pretend that I know everything. There is an area of ​​the unknown, and there is absolutely no need to guess without facts.
              However, I fundamentally cannot believe in illogical things. For example, in the creation of the universe by a certain god. This is illogical, since who then created God himself? Or was it spontaneous? But this is even less logical.
            2. Outsider
              Outsider 28 August 2020 09: 12 New
              0
              - The Big Bang Theory is simply the most common theory at the moment. They changed in the process of obtaining new knowledge about the Earth and the Universe:
              1. The Earth is a hemisphere, standing on three elephants, which stand on a turtle floating on the Ocean River.
              2. The Earth is a ball, a number of transparent spheres revolve around it, on one of them the Sun, on other planets, and the last one is a sphere of fixed stars.
              3. The Earth is one of the planets orbiting the Sun, which moves around the center of a galaxy called the Milky Way, which is one of the billions in a static universe that has no beginning or end.
              4. The Universe originated from the Big Bang about 13.8 billion years ago and is an expanding hypersphere with a radius at the current moment of these 13.8 billion light years.
              5. The expansion of the Universe is constantly accelerating due to the presence of hypothetical "dark energy" in it. Whereas the hypothetical "dark matter", which constitutes about 90% of galaxies by mass, on the contrary, by the force of gravity, prevents this acceleration of expansion ...
              .....................................
              Tomorrow knowledge will be replenished - hypotheses about the structure of the Universe will also be supplemented.
              But the hypothesis of the Divine is completely inappropriate for a modern educated person, let's leave it to the Papuans ...
            3. Esoteric
              Esoteric 28 August 2020 16: 54 New
              0
              Well, if God is represented as the Papuans imagine him, then undoubtedly. But here's an interesting question. If you follow the theory that there was no originally rational force, then after all, the final death of a rational being does not follow from this theory. Why shouldn't the hypothetical "nature" create a multidimensional man, the same astral body, connected with the physical during the existence of gross matter in the three-dimensional world? And why not a multi-dimensional Universe could arise. If we have opened it yet, this does not mean that it does not exist.
              And why not admit that in this self-developed Universe, long ago, in the process of "evolution", in the astral plane of this Universe, two completely different types of its intelligent inhabitants arose. Some use love, goodness, self-sacrifice for their existence and development, while others use evil - hatred, lust, everything that we call the dark sides of the soul.
              And to admit that a person is for these creatures, it does not matter what an ant is for us, such an abyss separates us from them. And there is a struggle between them, and the souls of people take part in this. Only with a reservation. In the afterlife, your soul is weighed in some way, and it is determined where, to whom to go. If to the forces of hatred, then excuse me, your suffering causes them only joy and satiety, and they will torment your soul with the most sophisticated images. They also want to eat.
              There is no God in this interpretation of the world, everything arose by itself. Do you think this is not possible? Once it was considered impossible for meteorites to fall to Earth, as much as a whole academy opposed this - the French.
              Personally, I believe that God exists, and yes, I do not believe, I Know.
            4. Outsider
              Outsider 28 August 2020 21: 36 New
              +1
              Well, if God is represented as the Papuans imagine him, then undoubtedly. But here's an interesting question. If you follow the theory that there was no originally rational force, then after all, the final death of a rational being does not follow from this theory.

              - They say that in the world over the past 5 million years, since the proto-man began to walk mainly on two legs, 77 billion human beings have died. What is the need to endow these creatures with some kind of astral afterlife? WHO MAY NEED IT ?? To no one.
              And why not admit that in this self-developed Universe, long ago, in the process of "evolution", in the astral plane of this Universe, two completely different types of its intelligent inhabitants arose. Some use love, goodness, self-sacrifice for their existence and development, while others use evil - hatred, lust, everything that we call the dark sides of the soul.

              - In fact, these are monstrous ignorant absurdities. All "good" and all "evil" were born and exist in the process of evolutionary development of homo sapiens, they are absolutely essential for its survival as a species! And you are talking wild ignorant nonsense ...
              Personally, I believe that God exists, and yes, I do not believe, I Know.

              - Naturally: he himself periodically informs you about it "in the ear"! But some doses of haloperidol are said to help. Auditory and visual hallucinations are reduced.
            5. Esoteric
              Esoteric 29 August 2020 08: 59 New
              0
              There are more than 100 billion stars in our Galaxy, and there are trillions of these Galaxies. There is enough space for everyone. You don't think that life is exclusively the prerogative of the Earth? As for haloperidol. The first bell, which made one think, sounded when one very unyielding person, a communist to the core, a materialist such that there was no place to put samples, was dying from old age and concomitant diseases. When he, with tears in his eyes, asked to bring a priest to him to be baptized, to confess. When asked why, he replied that they came for him, and came those whom God forbid to see, and who seemed not supposed to exist. He was shaking with fear.
              So, our world is not so simple. The priest was called. This man died calmly, with a smile on his face.
            6. Outsider
              Outsider 29 August 2020 10: 08 New
              -1
              - The old man lost his mind from fear and glitches began. It happens ... Knowing that there are more than 200 billion stars in our galaxy, in the Universe there are about 500 billion galaxies (as they say), it is natural that the Earth and the Sun are not a unique pair in the Universe, even if the percentage of them is less than one billionth, which is Every semblance of the Earth there is a civilization - somewhere behind us, somewhere ahead of ours by millions of years - how can we suppose that all these intelligent creatures to varying degrees are governed by some Supreme Being ?? Firstly, the laws of quantum mechanics and other visual laws of the given Universe contradict this, and secondly: SOMEONE NEEDS THIS IN THE FIGURE ?! Such a "multiplication of entities" ?!
            7. Esoteric
              Esoteric 1 September 2020 08: 43 New
              0
              Well, if you like to think that with the death of the physical body the existence of your personality ends, then your right. Although whether there is life after death, or not, is unprovable. In any case, you will not be able to give a single argument in defense of your theory. And there is no need to refer to science, it "does not quite understand" a lot. The same quantum theory. Well, if about science, read not the last person in this very science, Bekhtereva, and what she said about the brain and the soul. You will not claim that she is ignorant.
            8. Outsider
              Outsider 1 September 2020 09: 20 New
              -2
              Well, if you like to think that with the death of the physical body the existence of your personality ends, then your right.

              - Yes, who would not want to continue the existence of their own, at least, consciousness. in some kind of astral matrix ?! Which of the 77 billion, starting with Pithecanthropus (do you also endow them with an immortal soul, or does it appear only among Cro-Magnons?) Would not want immortality in any form ?? But all these Wishlist should be at least based on something, and not "made from the finger", childishly, or oligophrenic ... These "Wishlist" are not based on anything material, real, alas. And, alas, they absolutely contradict all the laws of physics ...
              Although whether there is life after death, or not, is unprovable.

              - Then why the hell in the XXI century pass your feverish fantasies as reality ?!
              Well, if about science, read not the last person in this very science, Bekhtereva, and what she said about the brain and the soul. You will not say that she is ignorant.

              - So she, too, is scared to die FOREVER and by the ears she attracts "scientific hypotheses" to all these fantasies ...
            9. Esoteric
              Esoteric 1 September 2020 09: 31 New
              0
              I'm bad esoteric. I cannot convince the materialist. smile Good to you !!
            10. Outsider
              Outsider 1 September 2020 10: 13 New
              -2
              - How were you going to convince someone, not based on facts ?? THEN - WHAT ?!
  • CSKA
    CSKA 22 August 2020 13: 42 New
    0
    Quote: Fitter65
    Joseph Vissarionovich has them, hands, in working calluses, from the works of the righteous

    Yeah. In calluses and blood. Or is it within 600 thousand of those executed?
    Quote: Fitter65
    Because the USSR on May 9, 1945 is not the Russian Empire for you on September 5, 1905 ...

    Yes. In the Republic of Ingushetia there was no hunger and millions of victims. Or does the supreme commander-in-chief have merit only in victory, and he is not to blame for the defeats of the beginning of the war? And the USSR of 1945 is certainly not the RI of 1815.
  • Outsider
    Outsider 26 August 2020 15: 40 New
    0
    - Sure! There would be no Trotsky - there would be no October coup, there would be no victory in the Civil War, there would be no Soviet Union.

  • Uncle Izya
    Uncle Izya 21 August 2020 07: 19 New
    -26
    I wish you such a meeting
    1. Livonetc
      Livonetc 21 August 2020 08: 28 New
      11
      Apparently you deeply regret Leon Trotsky.
      Despite the fact that this fanatic, for example, was the ideological creator of the first concentration camps.
      In these camps, the color of the nation was destroyed.
      Behind him is still a huge trail of bloody beasts.
      He is not a revolutionary with a hot heart and a cold head.
      A monstrous reptile created to destroy everything and everyone.
      But you may not be sick of it.
      1. Looking for
        Looking for 21 August 2020 14: 53 New
        -11
        yes, how do you know about this. nesmyshlenysh ??. what. read a lot of pulp fiction ??
      2. Danila46
        Danila46 21 August 2020 16: 52 New
        -7
        Stalin was his exemplary student ...
      3. Uncle Izya
        Uncle Izya 21 August 2020 17: 40 New
        -5
        fools flock like you on this site
      4. Dr. Frankenstucker
        Dr. Frankenstucker 21 August 2020 18: 16 New
        -3
        Trotsky was no more odious than Koba and the rest of the company. All are equally fouled with blood and baggage of 'mistakes', 'excesses' and other similar ephemisms, behind which death, blood, hunger and hecatombs of corpses.
      5. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 21 August 2020 20: 16 New
        0
        Quote: Livonetc
        Apparently you deeply regret Leon Trotsky.
        Despite the fact that this fanatic, for example, was the ideological creator of the first concentration camps.
        In these camps, the color of the nation was destroyed.
        Behind him is still a huge trail of bloody beasts.
        He is not a revolutionary with a hot heart and a cold head.
        A monstrous reptile created to destroy everything and everyone.
        But you may not be sick of it.

        But he was also a supporter of attracting tsarist specialists in all areas of life in Soviet Russia, was against the failed Polish campaign. And they were all monsters.
        1. Dr. Frankenstucker
          Dr. Frankenstucker 21 August 2020 21: 26 New
          +1
          ... was against the failed Polish Campaign
          .
          Was not. He suggested a different tactic.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 21 August 2020 21: 28 New
            +2
            I read another
            1. Dr. Frankenstucker
              Dr. Frankenstucker 21 August 2020 21: 49 New
              -1
              ... I read another

              I don't exclude it. The controversy between Stalin and Trotsky over the failure of the Polish campaign is well known, as, in fact, the forerunner of this failure, in which Stalin's role is quite obvious. However, in the Short Course ist. VKP (b) Koba in this episode is white, fluffy and brilliant, which is presented by the Stalinophrenics as the main argument.
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 21 August 2020 22: 35 New
                +3
                Stalin took power as "the spokesman for the majority opinion" and "Lenin's faithful disciple." Trotsky was a brow from another opera - a charismatic intellectual, a good orator, being from a not poor family, devoid of survival skills
                1. Karenius
                  Karenius 22 August 2020 11: 55 New
                  -5
                  Albert jan, bari luys!
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  Trotsky was a brow from another opera - a charismatic intellectual,

                  An intellectual without higher education? Somewhat strange ... Although, nothing strange: there, his drinking companion, Parvus, with whom they on the territory of TI made plans on how to "shoe" Russia, he titled the epic of the landing of a syphilitic in Russia, as "The leader of the revolutionary movement Vladimir Ulyanov returned to Russia ":)))) (almost choked with laughter)
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  I read another

                  Albert Jan, I quoted his then slogan: "The rear of the Red Army is in Berlin" ...
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  But he was also a supporter of attracting tsarist specialists in all areas of life in Soviet Russia,

                  They just bought military experts for dollars ... Look, their grandchildren are still praising the communes here on the forum, which is understandable: they don't want to admit that their grandfathers sold for money against the Russian ethnos ...
      6. Kwas
        Kwas 22 August 2020 14: 03 New
        +1
        Quote: Livonetc
        this fanatic, for example, was the ideological creator of the first concentration camps.

        You attribute too much credit to him. This was noted by Lincoln.
    2. Snail N9
      Snail N9 21 August 2020 08: 54 New
      12
      It is curious, but who among those present read at least one book by Trotsky? Or is it all according to the principle: "I have not read Kautsky, but I condemn"? I happened to be in Spain and in particular in Malaga, where a "Marxist" festival is periodically held on the embankment and a small square near it. Activists of various Marxist, "extreme left" and "left" parties set up tents there, their modern "leaders" act, and so on. Quite interesting to watch. So I drew attention to the fact that in the attributes of all these "movements" and "parties" there are portraits of Marx, Lenin, Trotsky (Bronstein), Chegevara, etc., but not Stalin. I asked why there was no main "communist" Stalin, so they attacked me and began to explain that they say Stalin is not a "communist", but a traitor to the "communist" movement, a dictator-usurper who killed the faithful Leninist "Trotsky", who repressed the Comintern , "poisoned" the Fourth International, betrayed the world communist movement and the world revolution ... I told them - but it was under Stalin that help was provided to the Republicans of Spain in the war against the Francoists. And they answered me - Stalin supplied weapons and equipment and instructors not to help, but for money and took out most of the gold reserves of the republic in payment for this assistance, that is, he acted like an ordinary capitalist huckster. This is the opinion of modern "western" leftists of the communist persuasion about Stalin.
      1. qQQQ
        qQQQ 21 August 2020 09: 17 New
        22
        Quote: Snail N9
        betrayed the world communist movement and the world revolution ...

        Indeed, Stalin did not allow the RI and its people to be used as firewood to kindle the fire of the World Revolution. I am sure that if it were not for Stalin's thesis about the possibility of building socialism in a single country, then all our ancestors, like the country itself, would long ago have sunk into oblivion when trying to carry out this very World Revolution.
        1. Doctor
          Doctor 21 August 2020 09: 57 New
          +1
          I am sure that if it were not for Stalin's thesis about the possibility of building socialism in a single country

          Got it?
          1. qQQQ
            qQQQ 21 August 2020 10: 43 New
            11
            Quote: Arzt
            Got it?

            Actually, yes. It didn't work out, but that's a separate question, why.
            1. Doctor
              Doctor 21 August 2020 10: 45 New
              +5
              I couldn't keep it

              This is what we are talking about.
              Socialism is such a thing that for some reason you need to keep it.
              And capitalism lives for itself and does not blow a mustache.
              1. paul3390
                paul3390 21 August 2020 11: 20 New
                12
                The USSR was the very first experience of mankind. And then - he held out for 70 years against the entire globe and became one of the two superpowers of the planet! Is this not an indicator of the highest efficiency of socialism? And about living - remember the history of how capitalism changed feudalism .. In the Netherlands alone, the war has been going on for 80 years! And how many successful attempts were made to restore feudalism, in the same England? Then, after all, go and too, the victorious feudal lords rubbed their hands - well, like everything, the khan of this capitalism, got baked, we drove the bourgeoisie under the box ..

                The 30 years that have passed since the collapse of the USSR is nothing on the scale of history .. Everything is still ahead. Besides, there is also China. And Vietnam. And a huge bunch of all kinds of socialist movements all over the planet. So that..
                1. Doctor
                  Doctor 21 August 2020 11: 37 New
                  0
                  The 30 years that have passed since the collapse of the USSR is nothing on the scale of history .. Everything is still ahead. Besides, there is also China. And Vietnam. And a huge bunch of all kinds of socialist movements all over the planet. So that..

                  The theory itself is flawed. Otherwise, everything would have worked until now and no restructuring was needed.
                  China and Vietnam have been in capitalism for a long time, Belarus is still fluttering, but this will not last long ...
                  1. paul3390
                    paul3390 21 August 2020 14: 44 New
                    11
                    In China - no capitalism, do not repeat wild inventions. There is NEP, about which Comrade Xi spoke openly at the last congress. It is always useful to read primary sources .. And perestroika is precisely a return to capitalism, not an attempt to correct socialism. Yes - he really had to be ruled, but - after the wild antics of Khrushchev .. who really fucked up the working Stalinist economy, which ultimately led to the collapse of the Union ..
                  2. Esoteric
                    Esoteric 21 August 2020 20: 26 New
                    -3
                    Socialism, or rather Bolshevism, absolutely does not accept any manifestation of a different opinion. All who do not agree to be destroyed. No freedom of speech, you do not even have the right to think against the party line. Absolute destruction of the individual, with his desires and his own opinion. A "gray mass" is welcomed and created, which is absolutely satisfied that everything is decided from above for it, where to live, how to live, what to read, what to watch, when to shout "hurray" and when to demand executions. Workers work and live in barracks, they are the "owners" of "their" factories and plants. Collective farmers plow and plow, without money and without the opportunity to leave the magnificent collective farm. Engineers and scientists have a wonderful life in sharashkas, and let them say thanks that they did not fell trees.
                    But the highest party members are godfather to the king. Nearby dacha and midnight gatherings, in a close circle, and with such a table that the kings would be envious. Servants of the people should live well, and eat wine and drink the same good. Socialism, and even communism. To each according to his needs, as they say. The party has a need for special dachas, canteens, and hospitals. And the workers need Belomor - to build the Canal, and everyone is happy.
                  3. Kwas
                    Kwas 22 August 2020 14: 21 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Ezoterik
                    Socialism, or rather Bolshevism, absolutely does not accept any manifestation of a different opinion.

                    And what, capitalism accepts a different opinion more?
                    In private conversation - for God's sake, but in the media ...
                    And in private life, just try to say that you do not approve of the LGBT movement. Or spank your young child. Or a lot of other things, for example, simply and culturally going on a picnic in nature, or catching fish, which was more than affordable in the USSR. Russia is already catching up.
                2. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 21 August 2020 20: 54 New
                  0
                  Quote: paul3390
                  In China - no capitalism, do not repeat wild inventions. There is NEP, about which Comrade Xi spoke openly at the last congress. It is always useful to read primary sources .. And perestroika is precisely a return to capitalism, not an attempt to correct socialism. Yes - he really had to be ruled, but - after the wild antics of Khrushchev .. who really fucked up the working Stalinist economy, which ultimately led to the collapse of the Union ..

                  What is the NEP ?? Mao also spoke about mixed forms of farming, but since large corporations and manufacturers are private owners, then there is no talk of socialism at all
                3. Kwas
                  Kwas 22 August 2020 14: 26 New
                  0
                  What, what, ordinary. Individual corporations, yes, private ones, especially in electronics. And the economic base is state, strategic industries. And in the agricultural private sector is large. And in the state system there is no bourgeois parliament!
                4. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 22 August 2020 16: 02 New
                  +3
                  Is Singapore also NEP? ))
                5. Kwas
                  Kwas 22 August 2020 16: 14 New
                  0
                  Singapore is a trade and transshipment base of world significance, from which, moreover, they made a showcase, as in their time from Belgium, or from Hong Kong.
                6. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 22 August 2020 16: 25 New
                  +3
                  Who did? Lee Kwang Yoo? )) And since when has someone been interested in what is happening in the tiny country of Southeast Asia? Why make a showcase from it? Why did Belgium have to make a showcase? Hong Kong - to understand even more, although even being under China, it has excellent indicators in everything from life expectancy to population income
                7. Kwas
                  Kwas 24 August 2020 22: 10 New
                  0
                  Who did? Leaders of the world capitalist behind the scenes. Or do you believe in spontaneity? smile I don’t know by name. What for? To promote their value system.
                8. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 24 August 2020 23: 26 New
                  +2
                  laughing Lee Kwang Yoo is the leader of Singapore
                  Legendary personality
                  With a resourceless ass with nothing but a convenient harbor in the right place, made a tsatsu
  • sharp-lad
    sharp-lad 21 August 2020 20: 46 New
    +3
    It is not the idea that is flawed, but the bourgeoisie, to whom, on condition of satiety, any idea on the "drum".
  • Doctor
    Doctor 21 August 2020 21: 56 New
    -3
    It is not the idea that is flawed, but the bourgeoisie, to whom, on condition of satiety, any idea on the "drum".

    Idea.
    A banal example: the attitude of the collective farmer to the collective farm cattle and his own, domestic.
  • sharp-lad
    sharp-lad 21 August 2020 22: 18 New
    +3
    Who prevented us from treating the collective farm cattle as our own? By the way, most of those collective farmers did not treat their own people much better.
  • Doctor
    Doctor 21 August 2020 22: 29 New
    0
    Who prevented us from treating the collective farm cattle as our own? By the way, most of those collective farmers did not treat their own people much better.

    Not "who", but "what. Idea. Everything around the collective farm everything around is "mine"!

    No, it's an order of magnitude better to yours. I don't like cattle, compare the collective farm car and your motorcycle, the collective farm field and your vegetable garden, etc.
    That is the point.

    Over the decades, commodity experts with higher education have not been able to dress people in normal clothes, and shuttle traders with trunks did it in a couple of years, despite all the risks.
    Because it's a personal benefit.
  • sharp-lad
    sharp-lad 21 August 2020 22: 40 New
    +2
    Not "who", but "what. Idea. Everything around the collective farm everything around is "mine"!
    An acquaintance of mine, a machine operator on a collective farm, treated the equipment entrusted to him as his own and earned from 1000 to 1500 rubles a month per season. He had such an idea, quite working.
    No, it's an order of magnitude better to yours.
    He did not say anything about his car, but a lot about the combine, and how he repaired, and how he swore as the chairman, and how he saved the harvest with the same comrades. For which he had a decent income, and after the collapse of the Union, problems with local "goats".
  • Doctor
    Doctor 21 August 2020 22: 51 New
    -2
    An acquaintance of mine, a machine operator on a collective farm, treated the equipment entrusted to him as his own and earned from 1000 to 1500 rubles a month per season.

    Combiner yes, he could. There was already interest, close to capitalism. But in general...

    Remember the sayings of the working class of the USSR:

    Better not to report porridge, but do not disturb with work.
    From work horses die.
    Let the tractor work, it's made of iron.
    You are a worker, do not be afraid, we will not touch you.
    Work is not a wolf, he will not run away to the forest.
    Etc.
    laughing
  • sharp-lad
    sharp-lad 21 August 2020 23: 13 New
    +2
    So I myself was not afraid of work and I did not frighten her work! I was going to study, entered a technician in radio engineering with an eye to go to college, but ended up in the army, and returned to the wrong country. And all plans went to pieces, and all aspirations dried up like flowers ... Well, I can't "ride" others!
    Remember the sayings of the working class of the USSR:
    I liked to create (produce), the work was not a burden, and sometimes it was a joy! I did not go to subbotniks under duress, but for pleasure.
  • Kwas
    Kwas 22 August 2020 14: 37 New
    +1
    And what, a modern worker at a capital enterprise (or a farm, or a holding company, or an office, or anywhere) treat the master's good better? laughing I think it is much worse than workers or collective farmers in the 30s, for many of whom it was just "their own". And then the sayings went.
  • Kwas
    Kwas 22 August 2020 14: 31 New
    +1
    Quote: Arzt
    Over the decades, commodity experts with higher education have not been able to dress people in normal clothes, and shuttle traders with trunks did it in a couple of years, despite all the risks.

    Do you call NORMAL shuttle clothing ?? Or maybe shoes?
    I propose to compare the average service life of social products and bourgeois!
  • CSKA
    CSKA 21 August 2020 12: 15 New
    -6
    Quote: paul3390
    Is this not an indicator of the highest efficiency of socialism?

    ))))) Smiled. It was so effective that the country fell apart. Effective in what? In what has become the world's second largest economy? So the capitalist USA were the first. This means capitalism is also effective.
    Quote: paul3390
    And how many successful attempts were made to restore feudalism, in the same England?

    Could you tell us what these attempts are? Once the republic was made and that's it.
    Quote: paul3390
    Then, after all, go and also the victorious feudal lords rubbed their hands - well, like everything, khan to this capitalism

    Oh my God. Wake up. There was always capitalism under feudalism. People like you are just talking nonsense. They are unable to read what liberalism, socialism, capitalism are. Carry nonsense because of which you have a mess in your head afterwards. How is capitalism - an economic system, refers to feudalism - a system of legal relations in society? Capitalism is an economic system of production and distribution based on private property. There was no private property under feudalism? There were no merchants, usurers and bourgeois? You at least turn on your head and think about what you are carrying.
    1. paul3390
      paul3390 21 August 2020 14: 41 New
      12
      Do you want to suffer from idiocy? He had capitalism under feudalism .. You can read any brochures on this topic, the founders are there, but only your liberal delusional propaganda ..
    2. Kwas
      Kwas 22 August 2020 14: 41 New
      +1
      Quote: CSKA
      There was always capitalism under feudalism.

      This is just nonsense. If there has always been, then why should we arrange a revolution, abolish the estates, take away the privileges of the feudal lords ...
  • kalibr
    kalibr 21 August 2020 13: 38 New
    -5
    We just lacked Asians. North Korea has been forgotten. There is generally a socialist paradise!
    1. CSKA
      CSKA 21 August 2020 15: 01 New
      -3
      Quote: kalibr
      We just lacked Asians. North Korea has been forgotten. There is generally a socialist paradise!

      )))) He forgot about the socialist paradise of the DPRK and Cuba, but for some reason he mentioned the capitalist socialism of the PRC and the Hungarian People's Republic.
    2. sharp-lad
      sharp-lad 21 August 2020 20: 53 New
      +3
      If the STGA is imposed as well as the "civilized" world imposed on North Korea and Cuba, then they will hardly last long.
    3. CSKA
      CSKA 22 August 2020 14: 00 New
      -1
      Quote: sharp-lad
      If STGA is imposed as well as imposed on North Korea

      Is the world to blame for this or the DPRK? And is it so overlaid? China and the Russian Federation do not trade with the DPRK? Even the ROK with the DPRK, their main enemy, created the Kaesong Industrial Park.
      Quote: sharp-lad
      and Cuba

      Apart from the United States, no one has particularly imposed serious sanctions.
      Quote: sharp-lad
      If STGA is also imposed

      Decrypt
    4. sharp-lad
      sharp-lad 22 August 2020 15: 36 New
      -2
      STGA - United Terrorist States of America. hi
  • paul3390
    paul3390 21 August 2020 17: 05 New
    12
    I would have watched how capitalist South Korea would have gotten out of it, and any other capitalist country, if oxygen and any trade were completely cut off to it .. And the Juche people - not only did they survive, the Avon - they made a nuclear bomb and launch rockets .. ..
  • Esoteric
    Esoteric 21 August 2020 20: 46 New
    -2
    Life is beautiful there. If you decided to visit, it would seem a trifling matter, forgive me for quoting. And you need to go to the senior house before visiting, check in, say why you came, to whom, and for how long. He, she, the senior in general, will fix you, and check that they are not delayed, otherwise he will signal that suddenly you are a foe, South Korean. And to spend the night at a party, if you please write a piece of paper to the senior at home, saying that such a "name of rivers" stopped at such a "name of rivers" and substantiate the reason. You probably really like such orders, you very much welcome them.
    I especially like the murlo of the hereditary "Jucheist" Kim, everything shines, against the background of "a little" dystrophic Koreans.
  • CSKA
    CSKA 22 August 2020 14: 02 New
    0
    Quote: paul3390
    I would have seen how capitalist South Korea would have gotten out of it, and any other capital country, if oxygen and any trade had been completely cut off to it.

    First of all, the RK did nothing to block trade.
    Secondly, no one blocked the DPRK trade. Straighten up and read where the DPRK exports and where it imports.
    Quote: paul3390
    And the Juche people - not only did they survive, the Avon - bungled a bomb and launched rockets .. Their own development ..

    Well done. At the same time, they could not save the country from hunger in the 90s.
  • sharp-lad
    sharp-lad 21 August 2020 20: 49 New
    -1
    Enemies on all sides and the last friend fell apart. Why would there be paradise? But hold on, and it commands respect!
  • Danila46
    Danila46 21 August 2020 16: 58 New
    -1
    in China and Vietnam, under the Communist idea, capital was given complete freedom. earned, ate, but I do not work, but I get ...
    1. paul3390
      paul3390 21 August 2020 17: 06 New
      11
      Rave. All big business there is under the strict control of the CCP. And let only one of these billionaires just try to sneeze not at the direction of the party!
    2. Danila46
      Danila46 21 August 2020 19: 16 New
      +1
      I mean that in China everyone can freely engage in small commerce, crafts, and if you pay taxes regularly, this is only welcomed by the authorities and economically stimulated. Of course, if you open up against the government, you will be hanged without further ado. Only this is already politics
    3. Kwas
      Kwas 22 August 2020 14: 44 New
      +1
      Quote: Danila46
      I mean that in China everyone can freely engage in small commerce, craft, and if you pay taxes regularly, this is only welcomed by the authorities and economically stimulated.

      Well, this is the way it was under Stalin. Most of the people just forgot.
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 21 August 2020 21: 09 New
    0
    So they, in my opinion, are all in the CCP and are
  • Dr. Frankenstucker
    Dr. Frankenstucker 21 August 2020 18: 44 New
    0
    Is this not an indicator of the highest efficiency of socialism?

    No, not an indicator. The system has devoured itself. It turned out that a consumer society is a more popular form of social structure than everyday squalor and backwardness in everything that does not concern ballet, hockey, weapons and space. Cheeky apparatchiks with glossy faces were the first to realize that the country had come [censored]
    ... Everything is still ahead

    No, not ahead, fortunately. It is stupid to use China as an example. We will not demonstrate any "economic miracle", do not indulge yourself with the illusions of "jerks" and other noodles.
    1. Kwas
      Kwas 22 August 2020 14: 46 New
      +2
      Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
      The system has devoured itself.

      Oh well. Do you know about ideological sabotage? Starting with the "voices".
    2. Dr. Frankenstucker
      Dr. Frankenstucker 22 August 2020 15: 28 New
      -1
      Oh, well, well, well, yes. The steely principles of the fellow citizens did not give up before the voice of America and Seva Novgorodtsev.
    3. Kwas
      Kwas 22 August 2020 16: 16 New
      +1
      Well yes. Whom Nikita and Mikhail Sergeevich helped a lot.
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 21 August 2020 20: 50 New
    0
    Quote: paul3390
    The USSR was the very first experience of mankind. And then - he held out for 70 years against the entire globe and became one of the two superpowers of the planet! Is this not an indicator of the highest efficiency of socialism? And about living - remember the history of how capitalism changed feudalism .. In the Netherlands alone, the war has been going on for 80 years! And how many successful attempts were made to restore feudalism, in the same England? Then, after all, go and too, the victorious feudal lords rubbed their hands - well, like everything, the khan of this capitalism, got baked, we drove the bourgeoisie under the box ..

    The 30 years that have passed since the collapse of the USSR is nothing on the scale of history .. Everything is still ahead. Besides, there is also China. And Vietnam. And a huge bunch of all kinds of socialist movements all over the planet. So that..

    China? Where is socialism there? ))) A third of pensioners do not receive pensions at all, of those receiving forty percent they have up to 5 thousand rubles a month. But oligarchs are necessarily CCP members laughing And in Vietnam there are no pensions at all, but, as in the PRC, very large means of production are in private hands, one way or another belonging to the top of the Communist Party.
    1. Kwas
      Kwas 22 August 2020 14: 50 New
      +2
      Quote: Krasnodar
      Where is socialism there? ))) A third of pensioners do not receive pensions at all,

      You are beguiled. There is order. And not all citizens of retirement age receive pensions. As with us, the collective farmers received almost nothing, because they did not work in the state sector, and this is their business.
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 22 August 2020 16: 03 New
      +1
      What's the order? Oligarchy?
    3. Kwas
      Kwas 22 August 2020 16: 17 New
      -1
      The ordinary order of a stable country, in which not everyone receives pensions, but everyone who is entitled to.
    4. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 22 August 2020 16: 21 New
      +2
      laughing
      It sucks, not order
  • Karenius
    Karenius 22 August 2020 12: 14 New
    -3
    Quote: paul3390
    The USSR was the very first experience of mankind.

    Half a century before that, there was already an experience in the world that would bring the Khevolution (Parisian commune) ...
    And the most striking case is to show that it was always clear to everyone what the Khevolutionary movement was, I have already shown ... I will repeat it again ... In Tiflis, the son of Honored General Artsruni, the 15-year-old son did not know his native Armenian language ... The father sent his son to Moscow, to study ... So, from the very beginning of his life in the capital, knowledgeable people, in the person of Suren Spandaryan, were instructed not to contact the Khevolunteers ... And they also took up his education ... So much so that he became the truest spokesman for the aspirations of Armenian thought when he returned to Tiflis and opened a newspaper in Armenian, "Meghu" (bee) ... That is, if S. Spandaryan knew the truth, then everyone who interested in this topic ...
    1. Kwas
      Kwas 22 August 2020 14: 51 New
      0
      Both examples are about nothing.
    2. Karenius
      Karenius 22 August 2020 15: 32 New
      0
      The victims of the Paris commune testify otherwise in the first case ...
    3. Kwas
      Kwas 22 August 2020 16: 19 New
      0
      How long did she last? In such a case, the sacrifices of the Great Fr Roar clearly testify to the same in relation to capitalism.
    4. Karenius
      Karenius 22 August 2020 18: 09 New
      0
      Quote: Kwas
      How long did she last?

      So they saved the French nation by crushing this bloody rubbish ... And the so-called. It was led by Fr Rev ... the same structures were planted as later in Russia ...
  • abrakadabre
    abrakadabre 21 August 2020 11: 25 New
    13
    Socialism is such a thing that for some reason you need to keep it.
    And capitalism lives for itself and does not blow a mustache.
    Because new sprouts always have to be protected, and ... manure does not sink.
    Or, to use an ancient Roman parable: it is always hard to go up to the sublime, but down the mountain of human vices it rolls on its own.
    1. Doctor
      Doctor 21 August 2020 11: 33 New
      -1
      Because new sprouts always have to be protected, and ... manure does not sink.
      Or, to use an ancient Roman parable: it is always hard to go up to the sublime, but down the mountain of human vices it rolls on its own.

      You could say that.
      Or it is possible from the point of view of socialist materialism and evolutionary theory, beloved by Marxists.

      Socialism has failed because it does not correspond to the essence of man. Equalization and even distribution kills the incentives for quality work and the pursuit of excellence.

      I remember very well how brigade contracts, KTU and material incentives for production leaders were introduced.
      But these are surrogates, nothing can replace YOUR WORK.
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 21 August 2020 13: 43 New
        11
        You don't know much about the materiel, so to speak.
        1. Socialism did not lose, but retreated under the pressure of the counter-revolution. So far, capitalism has taken revenge. As it was before with the previous formations. When feudalism also took revenge on capitalism for some time. But where is he now? ..
        2. Socialism began to retreat after Khrushchev's petty-bourgeois reforms. "KTU and material incentives for production leaders." are essentially capitalist methods that nurtured the petty-bourgeois mentality of the people.
      2. Doctor
        Doctor 21 August 2020 14: 14 New
        -3

        You don't know much about the materiel, so to speak.
        1. Socialism did not lose, but retreated under the pressure of the counter-revolution. So far, capitalism has taken revenge. As it was before with the previous formations. When feudalism also took revenge on capitalism for some time. But where is he now? ..

        A bike invented to justify the failure of the theory itself.
        It seems that economically the USSR was wow, but some unknown counter-revolutionaries ruined it. wink
        But since no Savinkovs were found under Gorbachev, they wrote him down with some other comrades in opposition, without thinking twice.
        And the fact that Gorbach started perestroika, because the grub was already ending in the country, is somehow overlooked.
        The "Marxist" Ilyich at one time introduced the NEP without hesitation, and no real counter could do anything.
        Not surprising. What kind of woodpecker will climb barricades with a full basement.
      3. sharp-lad
        sharp-lad 21 August 2020 21: 22 New
        +2
        And the fact that Gorbach started perestroika, because the grub was already ending in the country, is somehow overlooked.
        Yeah, it ended. When I bought my cards at the end of 80, there was nowhere to put them. And whoever wanted to make money could always do it, he himself worked as an adjuster of robotic machines at the Alpha plant, after 10 years the salary is 280 rubles, the ceiling is about 1000, and if you learn (did not have time, the Union was destroyed), then more! But this is if you do not sit as a fool (like an engineer), but work with your head and hands. And I was not the only one like that, my friend, the Mechanic (yes, yes, with a capital letter) really plowed on the collective farm and earned about 8 rubles per season (9-10 months a year), not counting the salary for each parasite, so He wasted the whole Union and the CMEA countries! True, in winter, spring, summer, autumn - it's a time of hard work.
      4. Doctor
        Doctor 21 August 2020 21: 58 New
        -2
        Yeah, it ended. When I bought my cards at the end of 80, there was nowhere to put them.

        You have not seen the situation on a national scale.
        Andropov had already begun the restructuring, there was nowhere to go, debit and credit did not converge.
      5. sharp-lad
        sharp-lad 21 August 2020 22: 09 New
        +2
        Andropov tried to make a considerable part of the working class and bureaucracy feel too relaxed.
      6. sharp-lad
        sharp-lad 21 August 2020 22: 11 New
        +2
        You have not seen the situation on a national scale.
        I saw, I saw too well how they came to work only to be marked on the payroll.
      7. Doctor
        Doctor 21 August 2020 22: 22 New
        -4
        You have not seen the situation on a national scale.
        I saw, I saw too well how they came to work only to be marked on the payroll.


        Yes. This is socialism.

        Andropov tried to make a considerable part of the working class and bureaucracy feel too relaxed.


        So he saw the solution to the problem. Force. Stalin's way.
      8. sharp-lad
        sharp-lad 21 August 2020 22: 30 New
        +2
        Yes. This is socialism.
        The principle of socialism - from each according to his ability, to each according to his work.
        So he saw the solution to the problem. Force. Stalin's way.
        But what if you failed to persuade?
      9. Doctor
        Doctor 21 August 2020 22: 32 New
        -2
        But what if you failed to persuade?

        What Gorbachev did. Only smoother and smarter. Like the Chinese.
  • abrakadabre
    abrakadabre 22 August 2020 12: 26 New
    +2
    Andropov had already begun the restructuring, there was nowhere to go, debit and credit did not converge.
    No matter how much you fix the bourgeois model, it won't get any better. You even did not understand my previous post. What about whole theories about the construction of socialism and even just philosophy as a science, and not the opinion of amateurs about it. Read about the unity and struggle of opposites and the law of denial of negation. Take your time to understand what you read.
    Socialism began to wind down with the reforms of Khrushchev. And it was by no means curtailed towards the next stage - communism, but into ordinary capitalism.
  • Doctor
    Doctor 22 August 2020 15: 10 New
    0
    No matter how much you fix the bourgeois model, it won't get any better.

    She does not need patches. Humanity has stood on it for not a single millennium because it corresponds to the animal nature of man.
    Try to make a pack of wolves put some of the prey in a common heap, and then chew it off in an organized manner.
    Or at your work, arrange mini-socialism, persuade employees to add the entire salary to the common fund, and then give out the loot as needed. Designate yourself as the giver. laughing
  • Doctor
    Doctor 22 August 2020 15: 22 New
    0
    You even did not understand my previous post.

    Maybe. Probably deeply you buried philosophy there. I will clarify.

    1. Socialism did not lose, but retreated under the pressure of the counter-revolution. So far, capitalism has taken revenge. As it was before with the previous formations. When feudalism also took revenge on capitalism for some time. But where is he now? ..

    I understood this to mean that some counter-revolutionary (?!) forces were pressing on socialism. And they pushed through. The question is: what are these forces, and where did they come from in the 8th decade after the revolution.
    Everyone is scolding Gorbach, probably he is the main counter?

    2. Socialism began to retreat after Khrushchev's petty-bourgeois reforms. "KTU and material incentives for production leaders." are essentially capitalist methods that nurtured the petty-bourgeois mentality of the people.

    Compared with the NEP, Khrushchev's reforms are childish. However, no one calls Lenin a counter.
    And what about material incentives, again, did not start with him. Money always worked in the USSR, Stalin paid during the Patriotic (!) War for downed planes and destroyed tanks.
    However, no one said that the Red Army was a PMC. wassat
  • CSKA
    CSKA 21 August 2020 15: 27 New
    -5
    Another one with a mess in my head. When you, like communists, learn to read something and find the time to read what socialism, feudalism, the bourgeoisie are.
    Quote: abrakadabre
    As it was before with the previous formations. When feudalism also took revenge on capitalism for some time. But where is he now?

    What the hell is your system of legal relations in society and the economic system of the formation of the same type. These are completely different things. The basis of capitalism is private property. Under feudalism, there were no merchants and bourgeois?
    Quote: abrakadabre
    Socialism began to retreat after Khrushchev's petty-bourgeois reforms.

    Name at least one such reform.
  • Looking for
    Looking for 21 August 2020 15: 02 New
    +4
    And YOUR BUSINESS is like.-Rob. Steal. Take advantage of your neighbor. ??
  • Doctor
    Doctor 21 August 2020 18: 42 New
    -1
    And YOUR BUSINESS is like.-Rob. Steal. Take advantage of your neighbor. ??

    Build a garage, buy a lift and work your way. Work well, otherwise clients will not come.
  • sharp-lad
    sharp-lad 21 August 2020 21: 24 New
    +1
    Aha! In the nineties, without having any acquaintances or cronyism.
  • Doctor
    Doctor 21 August 2020 21: 55 New
    -2
    Aha! In the nineties, without having any acquaintances or cronyism.


    Are you talking about this? laughing

    And YOUR BUSINESS is like.-Rob. Steal. Take advantage of your neighbor. ??
  • sharp-lad
    sharp-lad 21 August 2020 22: 25 New
    +1
    In the nineties I was only 20. No connections, no cronyism, only the idea of ​​universal brotherhood and welfare.
    And YOUR BUSINESS is like.-Rob. Steal. Take advantage of your neighbor. ??
    And I've seen enough of this ... I wanted to take up arms, but calmed down and spat, in the end, at everything. With the ideas that rule now, humanity is doomed and I see no way to fix it, well, except for a total cleanup.
  • Doctor
    Doctor 21 August 2020 22: 36 New
    -1
    With the ideas that rule now, humanity is doomed and I see no way to fix it, well, except for a total cleanup.

    Yes, normal ideas. As always.
    Only one must live in the real world, and not in the worlds of Jules Verne, Walter Scott and Pushkin, as they lived in the USSR.
    As a result, when the scribe came, most were not ready.
    This is evolution, dinosaurs are fucking extinct.
  • sharp-lad
    sharp-lad 21 August 2020 22: 58 New
    +2
    Only one must live in the real world, and not in the worlds of Jules Verne, Walter Scott and Pushkin, as they lived in the USSR.
    I wanted to make the fairy tale come true, but philistinism turned out to be stronger.
  • kalibr
    kalibr 21 August 2020 19: 32 New
    -4
    A greedy person doesn't need a knife. Show him a copper penny and ... further in the text. All the people mentioned in this song lived with the scoop, they still live. But now, of course, they are worse ...
  • sharp-lad
    sharp-lad 21 August 2020 21: 27 New
    +3
    A greedy person doesn't need a knife. Show him a copper penny and ...
    These are now in power, for a copper penny both the Motherland and the mother will be sold.
  • Kwas
    Kwas 22 August 2020 14: 55 New
    +1
    There is such a law of "Increase of Entropy" in physics. He is just about the fact that everything by itself mixes up and degrades. But the whole history of life on earth (which biology studies) gives us progress and evolution.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 21 August 2020 15: 23 New
    +6
    Quote: abrakadabre
    new shoots always have to be protected, but ... manure does not sink.
    ........... it is always difficult to go up to the sublime, but down the mountain of human vices it rolls on its own.

    In confirmation of your words:
    1) What one person has built, another can always break. X / F "Formula of love" "
    2) Capitalism was established in Europe for> 200 years.
    3) Capitalism has a restless life --- its problems, crises, it overcomes through constant wars and robberies. Peace --- NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    4) One of the consequences of the Second Law of Thermodynamics: it is possible to turn work into heat (for example, to burn coal or oil) with any efficiency, incl. and with one hundred percent, but converting heat into work (i.e., creating a complex material system) is the easier, the lower the efficiency, and 100% is impossible in this case.
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 22 August 2020 21: 25 New
      +1
      Dmitry, I understand your idea, but thermodynamics as an example must be handled carefully.
      turn work into heat (such as burning coal or oil)

      The energy stored in the fuel before it oxidizes is by no means work.
    2. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 22 August 2020 21: 43 New
      0
      Sergei, I’ll think about the best, write in a personal.
      And what about Trotsky, what can you add? We are now unable to fully appreciate what was happening then. It is known that the materials that mentioned Trotsky were often confiscated and destroyed.
      For example, in the magazine OGONEK, in 1923, they published an article --- "Trotsky's Day", where he was praised.
      Now the article has not remained in all the journals available in the libraries.
      For example, an almost 10-year-old edition of the work of KOMSOMOLIY, Bezymensky, was confiscated. There was also Trotsky's review.
    3. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 22 August 2020 21: 59 New
      +1
      From the point of view of modernity, the withdrawal of Trotsky's articles and works seems strange, but then the trust in the printed word was outrageous (there were simply no other means of agitation). Perhaps that is why the printed materials were confiscated, they knew better how to block enemy propaganda. There was probably no opportunity to effectively expose it by maliciously commenting on-line, as they say. But in the USSR of the 60-70s, instead of jamming foreign "Voices", it was necessary to promptly comment on them on state channels, this would be an effective counter-propaganda. But she was not there.
    4. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 22 August 2020 22: 34 New
      0
      I was wondering, surely strange? And the destruction of monuments to Stalin and the lack of his works, portraits? Books about Stalin? For example, commemorative medals were issued for the 75th anniversary of Victory, including those with the image of Levitan - the Voice of Victory. But with Stalin --- it was not. I'm not even talking about STALINGRAD ...
      а
    5. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 23 August 2020 07: 44 New
      0
      Well, do not confuse the 30s and the 50s, especially the present time. If Khrushch had conducted the anti-Stalinist campaign with less hysteria, he might not have sat in the place of the general secretary. And now the officialdom is simply afraid of comparing the achievements of Stalin's and the current period.
    6. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 23 August 2020 10: 09 New
      0
      Somehow, the bell does not always work for me ..... Crossing out, deleting objectionable names has always been in the history of mankind, names and images have been lost from the stone ...
      I think, apart from information about Trotsky and the Trotskyists, not everything is known. Or so --- in 1927, Trotsky tried to stage a mutiny. We managed to read a little about this. The impression that the full information has not been printed. Is hidden?
      And about Khrushchev --- You write .......... IF ... But history does not know the subjunctive. The name, images of Stalin were seized, erased. Even in the Moscow metro. After all, there was a station FACTORY NAMED AFTER STALIN, and renamed --- AVTOZAVODSKAYA
      So, why is it surprising that Trotsky's name is erased? Studying the history of the country would be different.
    7. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 23 August 2020 10: 34 New
      0
      ... has always been in human history ...

      Continuing the topic, such information.
      In South America, the Incas fought for power over Peru. In the process, they systematically destroyed the tablets with the ancient Kechwan script still remaining in Peru (now we call this script --- Kohau Rongo Rongo). Moreover, they executed those priests-philosophers who knew this writing !!!!! Then they demonized the main Kechwan god Pachacamak.
      Parallels with our country.
  • Kwas
    Kwas 23 August 2020 07: 55 New
    +1
    Exactly. But apparently during the reign of Khrushch in the upper echelon of power, the friends of capitalism dug in so seriously that Brezhnev did not want to wage a war with them. And logically, he should have started with the trial of Khrushch on charges of the murders of Stalin and Beria, and then publicly expose the falsity of the accusations against them. Now they would say "Court for the protection of honor and dignity."
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 23 August 2020 08: 06 New
    +1
    Brezhnev is not a leader, he is a performer. It was under him that the entire development of the social sciences stalled. If he had rehabilitated Stalin, at least by his anniversary in 1969, the country's development would have gone forward. And there were such hopes. But in the same 1969 there was a letter to the Central Committee of a group of academicians (mostly Russian-speaking), who warned the secretary general against such a step. The letter is given in Semanov's book. And Brezhnev behaved like Leopold the cat - "Guys, let's live together." And the result was stagnation.
  • Dr. Frankenstucker
    Dr. Frankenstucker 23 August 2020 11: 01 New
    0
    ... ... If he had rehabilitated Stalin, at least by his anniversary in 1969, the country's development would have gone forward.

    Can you expand this thesis? It is not entirely clear with what fright the rehabilitation of Stalin would have stimulated the movement forward. Specifically - how?
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 23 August 2020 13: 25 New
    0
    Specifically, at least a detailed study of Joseph's last work "Economic Problems of Socialism" has begun. This work is "not a dogma, but a guide to action" (as another politician wrote).
  • Kwas
    Kwas 24 August 2020 22: 23 New
    0
    You probably have no idea what a shock it was for people when they tell you from the highest tribune that you adored the bastard, and generally lived wrong. From that moment on, honesty and collectivism were equated with idiocy. If people were clearly explained that just su ... ok Khrushch agreed, the shock would pass, and the system could be further developed.
  • Kwas
    Kwas 23 August 2020 07: 49 New
    +1
    Well, yes, there, the conversion of chemical bond energy into heat. It was necessary to give another example, say the braking of an unwound flywheel.
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 23 August 2020 07: 59 New
    0
    Quite right, or the classical Joule experiment in determining the mechanical equivalent of heat.
  • Dr. Frankenstucker
    Dr. Frankenstucker 21 August 2020 21: 07 New
    -4
    ... up to the sublime it's always hard to go

    If cyanotic chickens and high-flown delirium of political workers await at the top - then what about this peak?
    1. Kwas
      Kwas 23 August 2020 08: 10 New
      +1
      I see the discerning nonsense of Western tolerasts, do you prefer it?
      And about cyanotic chickens - let's do it another time, you need a lot of space and time.
  • Sergey M. Karasev
    Sergey M. Karasev 22 August 2020 05: 39 New
    +1
    Quote: Arzt
    I couldn't keep it

    This is what we are talking about.
    Socialism is such a thing that for some reason you need to keep it.
    And capitalism lives for itself and does not blow a mustache.

    You gave me an analogy. Capitalism is a ball at the bottom of a pit, and socialism is a ball at the top of a mountain. The ball on the top of the mountain is difficult to hold, it constantly strives to slide. But from the bottom of the pit it is difficult to roll it out, as it constantly tries to return.
    But the ball at the top of the mountain is HIGHER than the ball at the bottom of the hole.
  • Kwas
    Kwas 22 August 2020 14: 11 New
    +2
    Quote: Arzt
    And capitalism lives for itself and does not blow a mustache.

    It's you that got excited!
    Certain citizens of certain countries, of course, do not care. But in general, the population of the capitalist Earth, I would say, is vegetating.
    Well, and a systemic crisis that makes development impossible. Let's take Time as a judge! I suppose it will take 1-2 years for you to change your opinion.
  • CSKA
    CSKA 21 August 2020 11: 22 New
    -4
    Quote: qqqq
    Actually, yes.

    What are you? Do you even read what socialism is according to your Marx.
    1. qQQQ
      qQQQ 21 August 2020 11: 38 New
      +4
      Quote: CSKA
      Do you even read what socialism is according to your Marx.

      I would very much like to know what socialism is according to Marx. If you mean that in the USSR all property was state owned, then this is refuted by the issuance of vouchers, where in fact everyone owned a piece of the enterprise, i.e. despite the declared state. property, production, subsoil, etc. belonged to the people, and this is socialism.
      1. CSKA
        CSKA 21 August 2020 11: 54 New
        -7
        Quote: qqqq
        I would very much like to know what socialism is according to Marx. If you mean that in the USSR all property was state owned, then this is refuted by the issuance of vouchers, where in fact everyone owned a piece of the enterprise, i.e. despite the declared state. property, production, subsoil, etc. belonged to the people, and this is socialism.

        )))) The system built in the USSR had nothing to do with the Marxist understanding of socialism, since under it there was no self-government of the working people, no "withering away" of the state, or public (not state) ownership of the means of production; alienation, which, according to Marx, must be overcome under socialism.
        The Soviet system did not go beyond the boundaries of capitalism as a mode of production, and in fact was state-monopoly capitalism (most of the means of production belong to one monopoly owner - the state)
        1. qQQQ
          qQQQ 21 August 2020 14: 12 New
          +1
          Quote: CSKA
          most of the means of production belong to one monopoly owner - the state

          I will emphasize once again that if the means of production belonged to the state, there would be no voucherisation, the state would simply sell enterprises, land, etc. directly. I don't want to go into the jungle of government in the USSR, but for some reason it seems to me that if you go deeper, then everything was subordinate to some kind of Soviets, and this is already the property of the people.
        2. CSKA
          CSKA 22 August 2020 14: 12 New
          -2
          Quote: qqqq
          I will emphasize once again that if the means of production belonged to the state, there would be no voucherisation

          Understand that de jure, on paper, everything belonged to the people, this is one thing, and de facto, that under the USSR, the state ruled everything, that under the Russian Federation, vouchers were handed out and there was no sense, everything instantly turned out to be in the hands of private individuals.
          Quote: qqqq
          the state would simply sell enterprises, land, etc.

          It’s just bad that because of the constitution of the USSR they decided to give the people’s type to the people. If the state sold it, it would earn at least a lot of money.
          Quote: qqqq
          I don't want to go into the jungle of government in the USSR, but for some reason it seems to me that if you go deeper, then everything was subordinate to some kind of Soviets, and this is already the property of the people.

          Well, what are you talking about? Do you seriously believe that, for example, the oil and gas industry belonged to some councils? Or what advice is the merchant fleet, oil pipeline, gas pipeline? And certainly all metallurgical, machine-building and chemical plants were managed by directors appointed from above, not councils.
        3. qQQQ
          qQQQ 23 August 2020 19: 58 New
          0
          Quote: CSKA
          de jure on paper, everything belonged to the people, this is one thing, but de facto, under the USSR, the state ruled everything

          If we argue that here we must in fact, and here according to the law, then we will not go far. In fact, there was and is a lot of things, but as far as I remember we are considering de jure issues.
  • sharp-lad
    sharp-lad 21 August 2020 21: 30 New
    +1
    As amended by Comrade Lenin: From each according to his ability, to each according to his work.
    1. CSKA
      CSKA 22 August 2020 14: 15 New
      -2
      Quote: sharp-lad
      As amended by Comrade Lenin: From each according to his ability, to each according to his work.

      ))))) Read what socialism is, even according to Marcus, even according to Lenin. Ignorance is simply striking. Communist-socialists who did not even bother to read the books of their idols and themselves drown with shouts for something that in fact they do not understand.
      1. sharp-lad
        sharp-lad 22 August 2020 15: 49 New
        0
        I read at my leisure in winter, while there is no time. I hope I understand the postulates of Marx, his syllable is too heavy. hi
        From each according to his ability, to each according to his work. This is what I was once raised on. It is a pity that in the Union this principle could not be fully applied.
  • Fitter65
    Fitter65 21 August 2020 15: 12 New
    +7
    Quote: Arzt
    I am sure that if it were not for Stalin's thesis about the possibility of building socialism in a single country

    Got it?

    Yes, oddly enough ...
    1. CSKA
      CSKA 22 August 2020 14: 16 New
      -1
      Quote: Fitter65
      Yes, oddly enough ...

      Did you manage to build socialism?)))))) Stalin? Do not make me laugh.
  • sharp-lad
    sharp-lad 21 August 2020 20: 38 New
    +3
    It would have happened if Comrade Stalin had not been so kind to his enemies! Here, the shortfalls, and took advantage of the great losses of real communists in the 2nd World War and struck a fatal blow in the back of the people's state!
    1. CSKA
      CSKA 22 August 2020 14: 18 New
      -1
      Quote: sharp-lad
      It would have happened if Comrade Stalin had not been so kind to his enemies!

      Are you not very humorous if you are joking? With whom was Stalin kind there?
      Quote: sharp-lad
      Here, the shortfalls, and took advantage of the great losses of real communists in the 2nd World War and struck a fatal blow in the back of the people's state!

      Who are the undershoots? By surname. And when they were not enough?
      1. sharp-lad
        sharp-lad 22 August 2020 15: 54 New
        +1
        Well, for example, Western Ukraine, the Baltic republics after 1944. Pre-war repression .... after the mess of the civil war ... It could have been much worse.
  • Dr. Frankenstucker
    Dr. Frankenstucker 21 August 2020 20: 39 New
    -4
    ... Stalin did not allow RI and its people to be used as firewood to kindle the fire of the World Revolution.

    Clear business. The firewood itself came in handy in 'one separately taken'. It is curious how sectarians glorify their idol - it is Stalin, they say, did not allow, wisely rejected the idea, etc. It's just that the fight of the spiders in the bank ended in a victory for Koba, not Leiba. But neither wisdom, nor foresight, nor conceptualism have anything to do with it.
    What about
    ... if not for Stalin's thesis about the possibility of building socialism in a single country

    it would not be a bad idea to study the party discussion on this matter before handing over the laurels of the "only correct" decision to Comrade Stalin personally. Koba was far from being in the first roles among theorists, but against the background of Leiba he was an ordinary functionary.
    ... then all our ancestors, like the country itself, would have long ago sunk into oblivion

    Wouldn't have sunk, no songs needed. What a strange mania to present your idol as the savior of all Russia and the surrounding area?
    1. CSKA
      CSKA 22 August 2020 14: 21 New
      -2
      Quote: Dr. Frankenstucker
      It is curious how sectarians exalt their idol - this is Stalin

      Jehovah's Witnesses are just resting. There, for example, for peace in the whole world, but here a man allowed famine in the country, repressed millions, and he had honor and praise.
  • Varyag_0711
    Varyag_0711 21 August 2020 09: 32 New
    16
    Snail N9 (Snail)
    It is curious, but who among those present read at least one book by Trotsky?
    Apparently you've read them all ?!
    So I drew attention to the fact that in the attributes of all these "movements" and "parties" there are portraits of Marx, Lenin, Trotsky (Bronstein), Chegevara, etc., but not Stalin. I asked why there was no main "communist" Stalin, so they attacked me and began to explain that they say Stalin is not a "communist", but a traitor to the "communist" movement, a dictator-usurper who killed the faithful Leninist "Trotsky", who repressed the Comintern who "hunted" the Fourth International, betrayed the world communist movement and the world revolution ...
    Go fool there is nothing more to add!
    The ideas of the International are just ideas. And Stalin made a fairy tale come true, so your shitty Spanish "communists" can continue to masturbate over "ideas" that can never be realized ...
    1. CSKA
      CSKA 21 August 2020 11: 24 New
      -5
      Quote: Varyag_0711
      And Stalin made a fairy tale come true

      What fairy tale?
      1. sharp-lad
        sharp-lad 21 August 2020 21: 33 New
        +4
        The tale of the people's state for the people.
        1. CSKA
          CSKA 22 August 2020 14: 24 New
          -2
          Quote: sharp-lad
          The tale of the people's state for the people.

          You have something that is not a comment, humor. What is it in the people's state for the people of the city in 3 categories were supplied with food. What is it in the people's state for the people, this people in Novocherkassk were shot?
          1. sharp-lad
            sharp-lad 22 August 2020 15: 58 New
            +1
            Errors were, are and will be. Are the rest of the world states, especially under capitalism, absolutely perfect?
            especially under capitalism- coexisted parallel to socialism, that's why I single it out.
          2. Kwas
            Kwas 22 August 2020 21: 28 New
            0
            Quote: CSKA
            What is it in the people's state for the people, this people in Novocherkassk were shot?

            And that was only later, with the crunch
            And what about inequality, yes, of course, how can it be without it. But you must admit that the income ratio of the richest / the poorest was MUCH less than in the capital world. And besides, no one was allowed to mess around, which is also a plus.
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 21 August 2020 20: 29 New
    +2
    Were there any portraits of Mao? ))
  • TANKISTONE
    TANKISTONE 26 August 2020 19: 24 New
    0
    Snail N9 (Snail)
    I asked why there was no main "communist" Stalin, so they attacked me and began to explain that they say Stalin is not a "communist", but a traitor to the "communist" movement, a dictator-usurper who killed the faithful Leninist "Trotsky", who repressed the Comintern who "hunted" the Fourth International, betrayed the world communist movement and the world revolution ...
    Ask the "hippies" of the last century: "Why weren't they awarded the Nobel Prize for Peace?"
  • CSKA
    CSKA 21 August 2020 11: 20 New
    -4
    Quote: horus88
    Trotsky was killed because he was an enemy. That's all.

    Enemy of whom? Stalin?)))) Well, yes. For this they killed.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 21 August 2020 16: 04 New
    +6
    Quote: horus88
    he was the enemy. ...

    Besides, he was --- negative negative After all, NOBODY wanted to accept it! Because Stalin would not have liked it. Only Diego Rivera, Mexican artist and chairman of the Mexican Communist Party and friend of the Mexican President, convinced him to allow Trotsky to live! I invited him to live in my house.
    And Trotsky began to stick to his wife.
    1. depressant
      depressant 21 August 2020 20: 29 New
      +5
      David Siqueiros, Jose Clemente Orozco, Diego Rivera ... I somehow do not care what ideology these artists were adherents to - I saw their paintings in the original, such power! )))
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 21 August 2020 20: 37 New
        +4
        Quote: depressant
        David Siqueiros, Jose Clemente Orozco, Diego Rivera ... I somehow do not care what ideology these artists were adherents to - I saw their paintings in the original, such power! )))

        It's just wonderful, Lyudmila! hi love They were communist proletarian artists, how could it be --- indifferent? I've seen it in literature and videos! such power! it is yes!
        1. depressant
          depressant 21 August 2020 21: 28 New
          +5
          Dima, ideologies are leaving, some politicians are replacing others, a huge wave of human history is rolling, giving birth to culture - from dirt, ash, blood - Petrov-Vodkin, Deineka, Geliy Korzhev ... How many there were, mighty, who reflected the birth of The Red Army, the youth of the country and a formidable reminder: remember! Cobblestone is the weapon of the proletariat!
          They remember ... They remember - who needs it. I don't remember, I'm just an esthete. Ideology - by me. Therefore, I feel the beauty and grandeur of a bygone era, and people there see the murder of a man named Leon Trotsky.
          To each his own love
          1. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 22 August 2020 18: 43 New
            +2
            Good evening, Lyudmila! hi I am glad for your comment. I just got home now love
            You wrote everything completely correctly. After 1917, new artists, new themes, trends, associations appeared in our country. For example --- the Society of Self-taught Artists (OHS), the Union of Soviet Artists (SSH) ... There were a variety of abbreviations --- KNIFE, OST, OMH, ORS, TPHV, OHR, LEF, FOSKH, RAPH, also "" Circle artists "", Society "Genesis" "," "Wing" ", Name of Repin, Name of Kuindzhi, and others !!!!!!! I myself like the paintings about that time by the artist Brodsky, the artist Perelman ... I like the painting "Competition of Young Modelers" by the artist Adlivankin ... And much more that was in the USSR before the Second World War. And paintings by the artist Grekov about the Civil War.
      2. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 23 August 2020 09: 24 New
        +1
        Good morning, dear Lyudmila! hi
        Quote: depressant
        David Siqueiros, Jose Clemente Orozco, Diego Rivera ... I somehow do not care what ideology these artists were adherents to - I saw their paintings in the original, such power! )))

        It would be very interesting if you wrote, under what circumstances did you see these beautiful paintings, or maybe wall paintings ??? I think it would be interesting for everyone! Thanks in advance. good
        1. depressant
          depressant 23 August 2020 10: 46 New
          +1
          Everything is very simple. My mother and I often traveled to Moscow. At that time on Gorky Street there were exhibition halls, large and small. We visited them all! This exhibition was in one of the more or less large ones. In small rooms, in fact, very small and semi-dark, watercolors and mixed techniques of Soviet artists were exhibited. I remember Kartsiganov, Golovanov, Linev, Polivanov - powerfully! Be sure to visit Pushkin, Tretyakov Gallery, Manege ...
          It was a long time ago, I was not in Mexico))) And of the "Mexicans" the greatest impression was made by the huge triptych "White Gods" - knights on horseback, white and brown colors, everything seemed to be in fog, sprayed. And surprisingly, I could not find these pictures in a search engine. Apparently, they have been in a private collection for a long time. But I found one of the paintings I knew by Orozco - there are workers. Siqueiros was represented by a portrait of a lady. The technique amazed! But do not ask me what year it was - I don't remember! There are people who always remember the dates exactly, but I don't. For me, the impression of the event is important, not when it happened)))
          1. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 23 August 2020 11: 16 New
            +1
            Thank you for your answer, Lyudmila! Yes, I haven't found it in the search engine either yet ..... I'll see if it’s in the literature ..... somehow I remember that there were once catalogs of some old exhibitions, both Moscow and Leningrad, ....where are they now....
            And the book by Pablo Neruda about 3 artists is on the net now. I think you will be interested. hi hi hi
      3. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 23 August 2020 09: 45 New
        +1
        ...... David Siqueiros .......

        I read about Siqueiros that he was a political prisoner. When they put him in prison for the attempt on his life, Pablo Neruda visited him there, but every evening the head of the prison let Siqueiros go for a walk, and they went to a cafe together and drank there many times, which Pablo Neruda wrote about in his book about these three artists.
        It is interesting that this prison was built under the dictator Porfirio Diaz. There is a famous song about him "Cucaracha". This prison is called Lecumberry. It was opened in 1900.
        Diaz wanted a large modern prison to bring prosperity to the world

        In 1976 --- closure. Now it is the "" common archive of the nation. " There are many legends about the horrors of this prison, it contained up to 3800 people.
  • nekromonger
    nekromonger 23 August 2020 00: 42 New
    0
    Leiba Bronstein at the time of the revolution was a citizen of the United States, who paid money and gave instructions.
  • Far B
    Far B 21 August 2020 05: 47 New
    14
    Trotskyists, internationalist revolutionaries associated with the Anglo-Saxon intelligence services and the financial oligarchy of London and Washington, have successfully destroyed the Russian autocracy and the Russian Empire.
    I read up to this point. I sympathized with all the Guchkov-Alekseevs, all who in every possible way contributed to the abdication of Nicholas - they did not know that they were Trotskyists ... He did not read any further, fearing for his nervous system.
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon 21 August 2020 05: 50 New
      +8
      This is still the role of the Trotskyists in the 4th crusade is not disclosed
      1. CSKA
        CSKA 21 August 2020 11: 25 New
        -2
        Quote: Cartalon
        This is still the role of the Trotskyists in the 4th crusade is not disclosed

        laughing good And do not forget that it was the Trotskyists who started the Mongol yoke.
  • passerby
    passerby 21 August 2020 05: 51 New
    +6
    Absolutely not substantiated article with incomprehensibly based conclusions. Trotsky wanted to stab the USSR in the back during the Second World War. Trotsky was a US agent. The Trotskyists have established contacts with the Abwehr. What are these findings based on? A reference to a certain book by Colonel House "in which everything is written." What kind of book, what is its title, what facts does the author give in this book? "Trotskyists, internationalist revolutionaries associated with the Anglo-Saxon special services and the financial oligarchy of London and Washington, have successfully destroyed the Russian autocracy and the Russian Empire. However, after Lenin's death, Trotsky did not manage to seize control, he was defeated by the Russian communists, Stalin's supporters." did not Trotsky destroy the Russian Empire together with Comrade Stalin? You can continue to continue, but laziness.
    1. Far B
      Far B 21 August 2020 06: 00 New
      +5
      Was it not, together with Comrade Stalin, that Trotsky destroyed the Russian Empire?
      No, not together. They had nothing to do with the destruction of the RI.
      1. passerby
        passerby 21 August 2020 06: 07 New
        -2
        Quote: Far In
        No, not together. They had nothing to do with the destruction of the RI.

        I agree that it was not they who destroyed it, but they sought to destroy it and it was not their fault that at that time they did not have such an opportunity.
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 21 August 2020 07: 38 New
          12
          Quote: passerby
          they did not destroy, but they sought to destroy it

          Was it Stalin who tried to destroy what was left after Kerensky?
          This is what Kerensky left behind from the country:



          And this is what Stalin left behind:



          No one except the Bolsheviks wanted to take power in the dying state. Their party was small and they were forced to cooperate with the party of Trotsky and others who joined the RSDLP party. "Cadres decide everything," and there was just not enough of them. The consequences of such cooperation had to be corrected in 1938 ...
          1. CSKA
            CSKA 21 August 2020 11: 30 New
            -3
            Quote: Boris55
            No one but the Bolsheviks wanted to take power in a dying state.

            Who didn't want to?)))))) Monarchists, Socialist-Revolutionaries, Mensheviks?)))) Don't tell me.
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 21 August 2020 11: 32 New
              +1
              Quote: CSKA
              Who didn't want to?)))))) Monarchists, Socialist-Revolutionaries, Mensheviks?)))) Don't tell me.

              Have you heard Lenin's expression: "There is such a party"? If not, google it.
              1. CSKA
                CSKA 21 August 2020 11: 50 New
                -2
                Quote: Boris55
                Have you heard Lenin's expression: "There is such a party"? If not, google it.

                I don’t care what Lenin said there. After the overthrow of the emperor, there were a lot of parties and movements in RI, and they all wanted to take power into their hands. So there is no need to tell a fairy tale here that no one wanted to take power in their hands. White do you not want to take power?
                1. Kwas
                  Kwas 22 August 2020 15: 17 New
                  +1
                  Quote: CSKA
                  After the overthrow of the emperor, there were a lot of parties and movements in RI, and they all wanted to take power into their hands.

                  But by the fall of 1917, the country had been brought to such an extent that no one wanted to be in power, because it was clear to everyone that the case smelled of kerosene.
                  And white, they were later.
          2. passerby
            passerby 21 August 2020 18: 07 New
            0
            Quote: Boris55
            Quote: passerby
            they did not destroy, but they sought to destroy it

            Was it Stalin who tried to destroy what was left after Kerensky?


            You apparently inattentively read what I wrote.
    2. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 21 August 2020 07: 56 New
      +9
      The note is, of course, more than crude. The connection between the Trotskyist leadership of the Red Army and Germany is described in Schellenberg's memoirs "Labyrinth"; the author could have approached the issue more reasonably.
      1. Snail N9
        Snail N9 21 August 2020 10: 44 New
        -1
        Why was Trotskky killed? And what, no one still knows "why"? wink Stalin was afraid of only one person, Trotsky, and was afraid of him for the following reasons: 1-Trotsky personally knew the whole "Leninist camarilla", including Stalin, as peeling, their "dark sides" and at any moment could voice them at the most inappropriate moment, 2-Trotsky knew on whose money the "revolutionaries" acted and the "revolution" was carried out, 3-Trotsky was the true creator of the Red Guard and the Red Army, and his own contribution to the victory in the Civil War was incomparably higher than that of Stalin himself, and therefore Trotsky had among the military had great authority and Stalin feared that Trotsky could use this authority to remove Stalin himself, 4-Stalin personally hated Trotsky, for personal reasons (for pushing him as Stalin in the party hierarchy and acting decisively and successfully where the cautious and the consistent Stalin was just about to do something), 5-after the expulsion of Trotsky from Bolshevik Russia, he (Trotsky) developed a stormy print and denunciatory activity abroad, p Uncovering the true state of affairs in the Bolshevik Party and in Bolshevik Russia, he denounced Stalin for destroying his colleagues in the party for the sake of personal usurpation of power and deviating from the principles of communism, etc. world "communists, organized the Fourth International and pulled over the resources to which Stalin claimed, etc.
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 21 August 2020 16: 15 New
          +4
          Dear Snitch! Usually your comments are quite informative, and this one, to put it mildly, is highly controversial. Or do you want to conduct a discussion on this topic in this way? Anyway, is it you?
        2. Karenius
          Karenius 22 August 2020 19: 05 New
          0
          Quote: Snail N9
          Why was Trotskky killed? And what, no one still knows "why"? Stalin was afraid of only one person - Trotsky and was afraid of him for the following reasons: 1-Trotsky personally knew the whole "Leninist camarilla", including Stalin, as peeling, their "dark sides" and at any moment could voice them at the most inappropriate moment, 2-Trotsky knew on whose money the "revolutionaries" acted and the "revolution" was carried out

          At the trial, Radek tried to illuminate the very beginning of that carriage ... but he was immediately shut up ...
    3. paul3390
      paul3390 21 August 2020 11: 23 New
      10
      Was RI destroyed by the communists? And not the tsar's closest henchmen and liberals? Did Trotsky and Stalin really do the February revolution? It's strange - I was taught differently ..
    4. CSKA
      CSKA 21 August 2020 11: 28 New
      -3
      Quote: passerby
      What are these findings based on? A reference to a certain book by Colonel House "in which everything is written." What kind of book, what is its title, what facts does the author give in this book?

      ))))) Igor, why do you need these facts? Trotsky's whole fault is that he was an opponent of Stalin. The author, as an ardent Stalinist, must at least somehow and somehow accuse Trotsky. Evidence and facts? What for? And so it will do.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 21 August 2020 13: 44 New
        -2
        “A man has gone to his grave, whose name is pronounced with contempt and curse by the working people all over the world, a man who for many years has fought against the cause of the working class and its vanguard, the Bolshevik Party. The ruling classes of the capitalist countries have lost their faithful servant. Foreign intelligence lost a long-term, hardened agent who did not disdain any means to achieve his counter-revolutionary goals. "
        Not a single word of truth! And it's just nonsense about the workers of the whole world ...
        1. CSKA
          CSKA 21 August 2020 14: 57 New
          -1
          Quote: kalibr
          Not a single word of truth! And it's just nonsense about the workers of the whole world ...

          Exactly. How do you like this:
          He never managed to organize a stab in the back of Russia during World War II.
          It's funny. I'm just even interested in how the author imagines it.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 21 August 2020 14: 58 New
            -2
            Quote: CSKA
            I'm just even interested in how the author imagines it.

            He doesn't represent. He's writing. And this pleases many!
            1. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 22 August 2020 21: 35 New
              0
              He doesn't represent. He's writing. And this pleases many!

              Bravo, Vyacheslav! I will definitely use this phrase in future discussions.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 21 August 2020 06: 24 New
    +7
    I do not know whose agent he was, but I have no regrets about his untimely death. smile
    In such cases, they usually say: "What I fought for, I ran into it." request
    1. Uncle Izya
      Uncle Izya 21 August 2020 07: 21 New
      -14
      Yes, compared with the tyrant Stalin, Trotsky was an angel, Trotsky was a Polish darian killed by Lev Daviditch who took his documents
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 21 August 2020 07: 47 New
        +9
        Leiba Bronstein is his real name and surname, and Leon Trotsky was just a revolutionary "drove." In due time, Leiba Bronstein will take out a blank passport form and write in it the name of the warden of the Odessa prison: “Trotsky”. So he did not kill any Polish nobles for the sake of their documents, although, since the revolution, a great many people died at his mercy.
  • Deniska999
    Deniska999 21 August 2020 06: 29 New
    +3
    , a set of well-known facts and conjectures.
  • sergo1914
    sergo1914 21 August 2020 06: 37 New
    +1
    Thanks to Lev Davydovich for October 1917. And for the RVS. The young Soviet republic survived miraculously. Including thanks to the efforts and energy of Trotsky. But then the friend turned the wrong way.
    1. bober1982
      bober1982 21 August 2020 07: 48 New
      +2
      Quote: sergo1914
      Including thanks to the efforts and energy of Trotsky.

      Trotsky, of the entire Soviet leadership, was the most arrogant and unprincipled, hence such successes. He was hated not only by the Russian communists, but also by all kinds of internationalists - Zinoviev, Kamenev, Trotsky, and Lenin himself feared.
      As a counterweight to Trotsky, Stalin was put forward, who at that time suited all party groups.
      The very personality of Trotsky is disgusting.
      1. sergo1914
        sergo1914 21 August 2020 08: 03 New
        +2
        Quote: bober1982
        Quote: sergo1914
        Including thanks to the efforts and energy of Trotsky.

        Trotsky, of the entire Soviet leadership, was the most arrogant and unprincipled, hence such successes. He was hated not only by the Russian communists, but also by all kinds of internationalists - Zinoviev, Kamenev, Trotsky, and Lenin himself feared.
        As a counterweight to Trotsky, Stalin was put forward, who at that time suited all party groups.
        The very personality of Trotsky is disgusting.


        Nevertheless. October, in my opinion, is Trotsky, Lenin, Podvoisky, Stalin. In this sequence. Well, the organization of the Red Army is exclusively Trotsky. We will not say anything about the methods. The task was brilliantly solved - victory in the Civil War with almost zero resources at the start. Our present would have such abilities. Well, then, I repeat, the roads diverged. Although Stalin and Trotsky work as a team ...
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 21 August 2020 10: 12 New
          +5
          As for the Red Army, then Lenin instructed Trotsky, but as it were, Trotsky later showed himself at meetings, and not at work. So October, most likely, is not his merit, he could only be a showman there. And in the matter of military construction, 40% of the tsarist officers went over to the side of the Bolsheviks, and how many, like the same Brusilov, at least did not interfere with them. Trotsky was a journalist by profession, and hardly a fool, so he could, realizing the level of his incompetence in matters of military development, simply not interfere with the professionals.
    2. Varyag_0711
      Varyag_0711 21 August 2020 09: 23 New
      17
      sergo1914 (Sergey)
      Thanks to Lev Davydovich for October 1917. And for the RVS. The young Soviet republic survived miraculously. Including thanks to the efforts and energy of Trotsky. But then the friend turned the wrong way.
      For all my not love for Trotsky, I completely agree with you! It was Trotsky, with his energy and lack of principle, who was able to create an efficient Red Army. It was these people who were the driving forces of the Revolution, this can be seen in the example of the Great French Revolution, Robespierre, Marat, Danton ...
      But, he still deserved his ice ax, here it is not subtract, not add. He was good in his time and in his place. Unfortunately, such people are both needed during chaos and not needed during creation.
      And Russia was very lucky that the country was headed by Joseph Vissarionovich, because if Trotsky headed it, then there would be neither Russia, nor Russians - this is a fact!
      1. CSKA
        CSKA 21 August 2020 11: 33 New
        -1
        Quote: Varyag_0711
        But, he still deserved his ice ax

        What?
        1. sharp-lad
          sharp-lad 21 August 2020 21: 42 New
          -1
          The ideology of the red terror, for example.
          1. CSKA
            CSKA 22 August 2020 11: 07 New
            0
            Quote: sharp-lad
            The ideology of the red terror, for example.

            Then Stalin also deserved an ice pick, for the same Red Terror and for Stalin's repression.
            1. sharp-lad
              sharp-lad 22 August 2020 15: 34 New
              0
              Then Stalin also deserved an ice pick, for the same Red Terror and for Stalin's repression.
              Then all the dirt that was not removed came out in the late 80s, early 90s.
    3. Esoteric
      Esoteric 21 August 2020 20: 57 New
      -1
      The deepest chasms of hell for Comrade Trotsky and the rest of his comrades. Where they are actually located.
  • Doctor
    Doctor 21 August 2020 06: 39 New
    +4
    However, after the death of Lenin, Trotsky did not manage to seize control in his own hands, he was defeated by the Russian communists, supporters of Stalin.

    Yeah. Mikoyan, Beria, Kaganovich - supporters of Dzhugashvili.
    1. Varyag_0711
      Varyag_0711 21 August 2020 09: 27 New
      13
      Arzt (Yuri)
      Yeah. Mikoyan, Beria, Kaganovich - supporters of Dzhugashvili.
      And besides them, there were no other adherents of Stalin?
      Learn history, she loves it. Both Beria, Mikoyan, and Kaganovich joined the Stalinist team much later than they removed Trotsky.
      So no need to catch the hype and pull the owl onto the globe again!
      1. Doctor
        Doctor 21 August 2020 09: 49 New
        -4
        And besides them, there were no other adherents of Stalin?
        Learn history, she loves it. Both Beria, Mikoyan, and Kaganovich joined the Stalinist team much later than they removed Trotsky.
        So no need to catch the hype and pull the owl onto the globe again!

        There were. Ordzhonikidze, Yenukidze, Mekhlis, Grisha Kanner again.

        Put some other shvili on the kingdom in Russia, Saakashvili, for example, and for the sake of appearance he will introduce his Molotov and Voroshilov into his inner circle.

        But it does not change anything.
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 21 August 2020 07: 17 New
    +7
    I must say that Trotsky's ideas were very popular in the world. Even after the Second World War, here and there Trotskyist movements arose. Now some elevate this personality. The goal is one. To completely split the left movement.
    1. CSKA
      CSKA 21 August 2020 11: 47 New
      -2
      Quote: nikvic46
      There is only one goal: to split the left movement to the end.

      And who is this goal?
    2. Karenius
      Karenius 22 August 2020 19: 13 New
      0
      Quote: nikvic46
      I must say that Trotsky's ideas enjoyed great popularity in the world. Even after the Second World War, here and there Trotskyist movements arose.

      The riots in Greece were directed from Mexico ... The surname Gozman ... It doesn't even need clarification, definitely a Trotskyist :)
  • Oleg Skvortsov
    Oleg Skvortsov 21 August 2020 07: 33 New
    0
    I.V. Stalin always did everything right
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 21 August 2020 13: 49 New
      0
      Quote: Oleg Skvortsov
      I.V. Stalin always did everything right

      And he died on the floor in the country. It is not clear how, alone ... asked by everyone, like a dog! He did not see any love or care from the people closest to him.
      1. sharp-lad
        sharp-lad 21 August 2020 21: 44 New
        +1
        A leader's loneliness has consequences. How many people on this planet have the "happiness" of leaving for another world with their families?
  • Undecim
    Undecim 21 August 2020 07: 52 New
    13
    Another torment of history from Samsonov. When you read the article, for some reason, names such as barbiturates and opiates come to mind.
    By the way, the author shamelessly cheats in order to give his delirium some semblance of reality.
    In the United States, a book by Colonel House was published, where it was quite clearly shown whose agent Trotsky was in fact, whose instructions he followed.
    And the author did not bother to cite the title of the book. We would also read it, especially in Russian.
    By the way, House was never a colonel.
    1. Inorus
      Inorus 21 August 2020 09: 02 New
      +5
      Diaries and letters
      House Edward Mandell
      Colonel House's Archives.
      Diaries and correspondence with President Wilson and other politicians
      Military Literature website: militera.lib.ru
      Edition: House E. Archive of Colonel House. [Diaries and correspondence with President Wilson et al. Polit. figures]. - M .: Sotsekgiz, 1939
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 21 August 2020 09: 49 New
        +8
        Fine. However, this is not House's book. He did not write it. The author of this book is the American historian Charles Seymour. It was originally called "The Inti ... mate Papers of Colonel House".
        Find in it a story about "whose agent Trotsky was in fact, whose instructions he followed" could only Samsonov.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 21 August 2020 09: 51 New
          +6
          The word Inti ... mate had to be separated by three dots, as the editor considered it an invalid expression. The paranoid editor settings should be corrected.
        2. Inorus
          Inorus 21 August 2020 13: 18 New
          +1
          I agree with you
    2. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 21 August 2020 09: 53 New
      +2
      Quote: Undecim
      like barbiturates and opiates.

      laughing But Samsonov's mental motives are pure, he is an ardent Russophile. And so I forgive him for his mistakes about limited literacy. Or barbiturates. laughing
      1. The Siberian barber
        The Siberian barber 21 August 2020 15: 49 New
        0
        good
        Newpatriotizm, in classic performance) ((
        It's like a victory
    3. akunin
      akunin 21 August 2020 11: 22 New
      +4
      Quote: Undecim
      By the way, House was never a colonel.

      duc everyone knows who house was

      laughing
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 21 August 2020 08: 29 New
    +9
    Where do people come from who, they write, as if they are speaking at a rally, with slogans.
    1. Kwas
      Kwas 22 August 2020 21: 21 New
      0
      Well, how where ... wink
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 21 August 2020 08: 53 New
    -7
    Trotsky did not manage to seize control in his own hands, he was defeated by the Russian communists, supporters of Stalin.

    give, the author, the phrase "русские the communists"in the mouth of Stalin.
    Only the "Great Purge" made it possible to eliminate most of the "fifth column" in the USSR (How Stalin defeated the "fifth column"). Especially in the leadership and the army. Underground subversive structures in the country were destroyed.

    The author would tell how it turned out that in the most popular state of the world there were hundreds of times more enemies of this state than internal enemies in any ANTI capital state?
    In theory, it should be the other way around! yes

    The entire first composition of the Soviet Council of People's Commissars, the entire first composition of the Politburo of the All-Union Communist Party, 75% of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of 1934, etc. were shot. This is WHERE this has been seen in the world (except for narstrana)?
    Underground subversive structures in the country were destroyed.

    According to the meetings of the VK of the USSR Armed Forces, Trotsky created a team of Trotskyists-"SS and Gestapo command" (literally), which included (through all sorts of centers) the Chairmen and numerous members of the USSR GOVERNMENT, PB, Marshals of the USSR, academicians and other LEADERSHIP of the country.

    WHAT is this system where the country was ruled by ... agents of all possible countries, eh?

    And yes, criminality in the USSR in the 1930s was ONE% of the population, and in the ruling party of the All-Union Communist Party of Belarus, it was FIFTY% of the sotava, that is, every second member, according to the decisions of the courts of the courts, etc., turned out to be a criminal, and, moreover, for grave crimes - a cheater, a spy, a saboteur, etc.! Straight away, for selective concentration, yes ...
    The Trotskyists have established contacts with the Abwehr. There was a threat that Hitler would receive information that would significantly expand his measure of understanding.

    Auto is not in the course, alas.

    At meetings VK Armed Forces of the USSR 1930s found that Trotsky was a German agent with 1921 years so he already said everything

    And yes German spy Lion of the Revolution up to xnumg supervised all the construction of the Red Army with another german spy, Chief of Staff RKKA Tukhachevsky, i.e. , if Germany was building an army, then there were no secrets for her.

    By the way, the Red Army was also led by other German agents (established by the Soviet Court), Marshals and generals of the USSR-Egorov, Blucher, Uborevich, etc., etc. ...

    Here is such an unreal, seemingly, but actually happened, perdimonocle belay request .
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 21 August 2020 09: 55 New
      +4
      The revolution devours its children. request
    2. Kwas
      Kwas 22 August 2020 15: 28 New
      +1
      Quote: Olgovich
      The author would tell how it turned out that in the most popular state of the world there were hundreds of times more enemies of this state than internal enemies in any ANTI capital state?
      In theory, it should be the other way around!

      It's that simple. In a capital state, corruption is a systemic element, which is fought only for the sake of appearance, for it is not enemies.
      And when the authorities do not allow robbing, they have enemies. But also friends.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 22 August 2020 15: 38 New
        -3
        Quote: Kwas
        It's that simple. In a capital state, corruption is a systemic element, which is fought only for the sake of appearance, for it is not enemies.
        And when the power does not allow to rob, she has enemies. But also friends.

        what kind of "corrupt"?

        Destroyed hundreds of thousands, according to sentencesspies, saboteurs, conspirators, etc.
        what are you speaking about? belay
        1. Kwas
          Kwas 22 August 2020 16: 23 New
          0
          That those same offended became spies, saboteurs, conspirators.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 23 August 2020 06: 48 New
            0
            Quote: Kwas
            That those same offended became spies, saboteurs, conspirators.

            Thieves became ... spies, saboteurs, conspirators? belay lol laughing

            Because they couldn't become ... thieves? What are you carrying? lol

            The people's state can NOT have hundreds and thousands of times more internal enemies than the ANTI capitalist by definition.
            1. Kwas
              Kwas 23 August 2020 08: 04 New
              0
              Quote: Olgovich
              Thieves became ... spies, saboteurs, conspirators? belay lol laughing
              Because they couldn't become ... thieves? What are you carrying?

              What do you think honest people become traitors and conspirators? wink

              Quote: Olgovich
              The people's state can NOT have hundreds and thousands of times more internal enemies than the ANTI capitalist state by definition.

              And there is. The ANTI capitalist state has internal enemies - almost the entire people. And it spends a lot of effort so that they do not start shooting and so on, but in principle it cannot jail everyone.
              But it still plants. Look at the number of convicts in the USA, compare with the USSR! But they also start shooting. Look at the modern chaos of "black panthers" in the same USA. Not impressive? Or don't you notice?
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 23 August 2020 10: 44 New
                0
                Quote: Kwas
                What do you think honest people become traitors and conspirators?

                No, .... thieves become, yeah lol
                Quote: Kwas
                And there is. The ANTI capitalist state has internal enemies - almost the entire people

                That's right, but France, England, they ... WAS NOT.
                And who then REALLY antipopular, eh? Or will you show them convicted by millions of Englishmen in 1937?
                Quote: Kwas
                but in principle he cannot transplant everyone.

                Moreover, it DIDN'T even FIND them or DETERMINE them,
                Quote: Kwas
                Look at the number of convicts in the USA, compare with the USSR!

                Compared: in the USA in 1938 the internal enemies of the state (spies, saboteurs, conspirators) in TENS OF THOUSAND times less than in the "nogodnom" state-ve.

                Not impressive? Not, ..
                Quote: Kwas
                Look at the modern lawlessness of "black panthers" in the same USA. Not impressive? Or don't you notice?

                What is this for, what is the connection with ... the USSR of the 1930s?
                1. Kwas
                  Kwas 24 August 2020 23: 05 New
                  0
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Quote: Kwas
                  Look at the number of convicts in the USA, compare with the USSR!

                  Compared: in the United States in 1938, the internal enemies of the state (spies, saboteurs, conspirators) were TENS OF THOUSAND times less than in the "current" state.

                  Not impressive? Not, .

                  As always, you twist. I was talking about the average number of convicts, if you understand this term, of course. There are more of them all the time.

                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Quote: Kwas
                  And there is. The ANTI capitalist state has internal enemies - almost the entire people

                  That's right, but France, England, they ... WAS NOT.
                  And who then REALLY antipopular, eh? Or will you show them convicted by millions of Englishmen in 1937?


                  And what is the connection between England and 1937? And it's easy to show millions of convicted Englishmen. This is a large part of the original population of Australia, inhabited, as you know, by convicts. Moreover, for insignificant, from a modern point of view, crimes.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 25 August 2020 07: 45 New
                    0
                    Quote: Kwas
                    As always, you twist. I was talking about the average number of convicts, if you understand this term, of course. There are more of them all the time.

                    We STARTED to talk not about criminals, but about internal STATE criminals (conspirators, underground workers, saboteurs, etc.).

                    And there were more of them in the USSR than in the USA, England, etc. in TENS, if not HUNDREDS of thousands of times..

                    Wow ... "the perfect state .... belay

                    Quote: Kwas
                    And what is the connection between England and 1937?

                    Show Millions of Englishmen and others of the 1930s, convicted of crimes against the state
                    Quote: Kwas
                    This is a large part of the original population of Australia, inhabited, as you know, by convicts. Moreover, for insignificant, from a modern point of view, crimes.

                    Do you ever remember? And the difference between criminality and politics? Nope ...
  • Million
    Million 21 August 2020 09: 38 New
    +6
    I wonder what fate will befall Chubais? He recently noted:
    “Education is also a resource, which means that it should not be free, I mean professional or advanced education. Now we have it as a corrupting Soviet relic, and this gives certain circles some false hope that the son of a tractor driver or locksmith can grab something from the state for free. Education, an apartment, then what? "
    1. Kwas
      Kwas 22 August 2020 15: 30 New
      +2
      Quote: Million
      I wonder what fate will befall Chubais? He noted recently

      I'm also interested. I hope in the end the Bosko will be chopped off.
  • Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 21 August 2020 09: 58 New
    +3
    Samsonov. How long can you call the USSR a Stalinist empire? Do not repeat Bushkov's nonsense. The USSR was not an empire!
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 21 August 2020 13: 51 New
      -4
      Forgive yours ...
      1. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 22 August 2020 00: 23 New
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        Forgive yours ...

        You can't, people like you, then you will start stabbing our eyes with this.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 22 August 2020 07: 09 New
          0
          No, I am more tolerant of other people's shortcomings and I believe that everyone has the right to their portion of stupidity. Unanimity is 1984.
    2. Sergej1972
      Sergej1972 22 August 2020 13: 33 New
      0
      Because you are a Stalinist-communist, and there is also a category of Stalinist-non-Communists, and even, oddly enough, there are Stalinist-anti-Communists or Orthodox Stalinists.) And among the Communists-Stalinists there are those who prove that he is the successor of Lenin's cause, and there are also those who are skeptical or even dismissive of Lenin. Everyone in the ideas and activities of Stalin finds what is beneficial to him.
      1. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 22 August 2020 16: 00 New
        +2
        iost
        и
        Quote: Sergej1972
        Everyone in the ideas and activities of Stalin finds what is beneficial to him.

        No respected, the bourgeoisie, seeing the ever-increasing interest of the working people in the personality of I.V. Stalin and by his time, trying to "privatize" Stalin with the aim of emasculating the truth about him and not showing that I.V. Stalin is primarily a Bolshevik, a Marxist, the builder of the world's first socialist state.
  • deddem
    deddem 21 August 2020 10: 20 New
    +3
    Quote: Inorus
    Diaries and letters
    House Edward Mandell
    Colonel House's Archives.
    Diaries and correspondence with President Wilson and other politicians
    Military Literature website: militera.lib.ru
    Edition: House E. Archive of Colonel House. [Diaries and correspondence with President Wilson et al. Polit. figures]. - M .: Sotsekgiz, 1939


    We always do not know how to understand the American colonels - which of them is military, and which is an operetta from the state, like the founder of KFC.
    It's always a mess.
    Only with Nebraska is easier - they have this fake position called "Admiral of the Grand Fleet of Nebraska."
    It is impossible to be mistaken, unlike all these colonels.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 21 August 2020 10: 47 New
    +4
    Why Gerasim drowned Mumu,
    I will not understand, I will not understand.
    What delirium was he in, what kind of smoke?
    After all, not for good, not for reason.
    What feelings he felt inside
    While she was blowing bubbles?

    They walked along the shore together,
    The trouble was already close.
    Mumu was attracted by a cool reservoir,
    And then, and then
    He tied two bricks to Muma
    Sadist eyes, executioner's hands.

    Muma could live a long time
    Raise puppies, chase geese.
    Why Gerasim began to drown her
    In the pond, to the shame of all Russia?
    Since then, in any decent family
    The legend of Muma is always alive.

    Live, but remember that one day into the house
    Fate will come to you with a broom
    Then whine to yourself, wag your tail
    Fate is deaf, like that mute.
    Do not renounce, people, from the plague,
    Sumy, prisons and the fate of Muma ...
    smile
    1. Kwas
      Kwas 22 August 2020 15: 35 New
      +1
      The priest had a dog, he loved her
      She ate a piece of meat, he killed her
      And buried it in the ground,
      And wrote the inscription ...
  • hermit
    hermit 21 August 2020 11: 09 New
    +5
    Complete nonsense! Who is it for? Round idiots.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • akunin
    akunin 21 August 2020 11: 17 New
    +3
    what he worked for, he earned (the sickle and hammer must be removed).
  • Ramon Merkader
    Ramon Merkader 21 August 2020 11: 26 New
    -1
    In a still whirlpool, I'm busy, hello (s)
    The lice larva rightfully got it
  • iouris
    iouris 21 August 2020 12: 29 New
    +6
    Quote: "In the United States, a book by Colonel House was published, where it was quite clearly shown whose agent Trotsky was in fact, whose instructions he followed. .... That is, Trotsky as a" long-term, seasoned agent "of the West was" spotted. " usually destroyed. The indication of the operation to eliminate Lev Davidovich was given personally by Stalin. " End of quote.
    Arguing within the framework of this logic, you come to the conclusion that Stalin is an agent of the West, who was tasked with destroying the agent Trotsky, who was "exposed" by Colonel House. Stalin released an agent of world imperialism from the USSR in order to then organize a very complex operation to destroy him in Mexico, because he was guarded by the Americans.
    Is not it?
  • thinker
    thinker 21 August 2020 13: 02 New
    +3
    Quote: Sea Cat
    "What I fought for, I ran into it."

    Here it is, the real one! International Espionage Museum in Washington DC.

    https://tass.ru/obschestvo/6411382
    1. The Siberian barber
      The Siberian barber 21 August 2020 15: 44 New
      +1
      A wonderful multifunctional tool!)
      A monument to the person who invented it, even for its use, not for its intended purpose !!)))
  • Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 21 August 2020 13: 34 New
    -1
    how is it in the song to give the land to the peasants in grenada and the creation of their own type of land by the economic council is fully provided for at least someone read about the problems with the peasantry at least one grandmother had a pension of 15 rubles, well, she is a petty-bourgeois estate, I'm from Russian peasants and I'm proud of this we are the middle class of russia there have always been other times, russia is ruled by dropouts with Bonaparte's ambitions
    1. Kwas
      Kwas 22 August 2020 15: 39 New
      +1
      You know how you express yourself incomprehensibly. The last phrase about "dropouts" is especially amusing. You would have mastered it a little Russian, or something ...
  • Diviz
    Diviz 21 August 2020 14: 25 New
    +1
    Right now these Trotskys are a dime a dozen. just give them freedom. But the Trotsky also got smarter - they realized that they could be thrown too .. The ice pick put their brains in place. And it turned out SPAM class and not white and not red and not peasants.
  • Postum
    Postum 21 August 2020 15: 13 New
    -1
    Here is the trouble, all around the enemies of the people, only the mustache was always right
  • Maks1995
    Maks1995 21 August 2020 15: 20 New
    +2
    "Trotskyists, internationalist revolutionaries associated with the Anglo-Saxon intelligence services and the financial oligarchy of London and Washington, have successfully destroyed the Russian autocracy and the Russian Empire."
    They also forgot that German agents with German money revolutionized something.

    "However, after the Spanish adventure (where the Trotskyists lured a lot of volunteers from all over the world)"
    Ie Spanish volunteers from the USSR .... also that ???

    "The killer served 20 years, and after his release he arrived in Moscow, where he received the Order of Lenin and the Star of the Hero of the Soviet Union." That's the point.

    Business is business, and the description is figurative, IMHO.
  • The Siberian barber
    The Siberian barber 21 August 2020 15: 40 New
    +7
    With all due respect to Mr. Samsonov, I have to admit that his works are of a patriotic and popular character, in relation to articles concerning the history of the twentieth century
    "first grade, second quarter"))
    Confusion with the concepts of "Soviet / Russian" or a deliberate substitution confirms this.
    Excuse me)
  • Nikodim
    Nikodim 21 August 2020 15: 41 New
    +2
    Quote: horus88
    Trotsky was killed because he was an enemy. That's all.


    Just one question, whose enemy?
  • NF68
    NF68 21 August 2020 16: 11 New
    0
    If he sat there quietly, he would not be touched. But he did not understand this. So I got it.
  • Mark kalendarov
    Mark kalendarov 21 August 2020 16: 57 New
    +3
    To be honest, I didn't understand. Well-known facts.
    Publicly available information.
    Propaganda style of presentation.
    And if you go by the dates of death, then you have to write about everyone ...
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 21 August 2020 17: 15 New
    +2
    Or maybe everything is simpler - the leadership and the bureaucracy were unable to respond in time and adequately to the material needs of the population that had risen due to the success of the Union's economy (while their needs were successfully satisfied). As a result, the forester did not get out on the tank and dispersed all the right and the left (what did Yeltsin use there?). Gorby is just stupidly a traitor and it is possible that he was recruited in the regional committee. But the fact that the union was disbanded does not negate its truly fundamental improvements in the life of the entire population precisely by their labor and not by robbing colonies and satellites as in the West.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 21 August 2020 19: 37 New
      -1
      Quote: evgen1221
      precisely by their work

      AND GULAG
      1. evgen1221
        evgen1221 21 August 2020 19: 40 New
        +3
        Everyone has worked there and worked. And stop thinking in cliches, just like woodpeckers, because of their tree forests are invisible at all.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 21 August 2020 19: 46 New
          -2
          Quote: evgen1221
          Everyone has worked there and worked.

          For a ration of bread, cotton pants and a piece of herring on Sundays. And he mined timber, coal, uranium ...
          1. Esoteric
            Esoteric 21 August 2020 20: 32 New
            -2
            You cannot argue with them. They think of themselves among those Who direct them to great construction projects, to life in barracks, ration of bread and quick death. But they cannot even think that it is They who will be sent to these construction sites, and that It is They who will die there.
            1. Kwas
              Kwas 22 August 2020 15: 50 New
              0
              It was a difficult time and monstrous abuse. For which, by the way, the NKVD in 1938-1939 was heavily cleaned up, and the guilty were severely punished. Very strict.
          2. Kwas
            Kwas 22 August 2020 15: 46 New
            +2
            It's good to poison legends. There is also archived data on the number of prisoners. And by the way, compare with the number of convicts in the United States. Look, you will understand for yourself that their contribution to the economy is scanty.
        2. depressant
          depressant 21 August 2020 21: 13 New
          +2
          By the way, colleague evgen1221, a very fresh thought:

          "The leadership and the bureaucracy were unable to respond in time and adequately to the increased material needs of the population due to the successes of the Union's economy (while their needs were successfully satisfied)."

          I hope you'll excuse me for tweaking the text a bit, it was worth it - great generalization! hi
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 22 August 2020 07: 14 New
            +2
            The most interesting thing Lyudmila Yakovlevna is that the CPSU understood this too! I have preserved the notebook of the lecturer of the RK KPSS, where I wrote down what could be said to the people about the contradictions of socialism. The year is so 1988 ... "Between the broad possibilities of our economy and the system and the bottleneck of their realization"
            1. depressant
              depressant 22 August 2020 07: 39 New
              +2
              Vyacheslav Olegovich, it is also interesting that sometimes you understand that you need to do something and even understand exactly how, but you get stupid. He is out of fear that suddenly your even small action will be awkward, will lead to catastrophic consequences. And you don't do anything! )) And at this time, while you are not doing anything, in the surrounding economic or political nature, another, even a small shift, is taking place, independent of you, which becomes a trigger of irreversible consequences. I suspect that something similar is happening now. Any delay in your right decision is a coffin in which all your previous victories will be laid.
              And for a long time in the future, thinking about how this could have happened, what does it consist of, that damn trigger, what is it that was missed, unnoticed, not analyzed in time, you come to the inevitable conclusion that it was all business - Annushka poured oil! But at the same time, completely forgetting or even not realizing that you made this oil and gave it to her.
              1. kalibr
                kalibr 22 August 2020 07: 42 New
                +1
                You said that well. At the end of the 80s, a study was conducted in Kuibyshev (within the framework of scientific communism, there was no sociology at that time) on how to be and what to do. Very interesting content. But ... put it under the rug. Nobody wanted to rock the boat.
                1. depressant
                  depressant 22 August 2020 08: 06 New
                  +2
                  You know, based on observations of yourself. Either we have such a climate, or we have all been bred in such a way that almost everyone strives, in the words of the Strugatskys, to "homeostatic equilibrium." Something was achieved when there was a young enthusiasm, hormones played, and then everyone just lives, not noticing that there are no achievements, that due to their absence there is an inevitable rollback downhill, life aspirations are extinguished - with rare exceptions of individual individuals. And the country goes out, grows old and gradually dies. And in order not to be so, the state as a political organizer should be “forever young, forever drunk” - it should cheer us up, give us joyful meanings. But it behaves like most of us, creating a false appearance that it is for us and with us. It is for itself, because it consists of a part of the population and therefore is also aging catastrophically quickly. It's just an epidemic of some kind on 1/7 of the land (previously - 1/6) - an epidemic of aging of meanings, leading to the moral aging of the population. Mutual feedback. An aging organism shrinks in growth. So we are shrinking in territory. Against the background of forever young, forever drunk and therefore predatory states.
                  1. Kwas
                    Kwas 22 August 2020 16: 02 New
                    +3
                    I would describe the current moment as a "crisis of ideology." Almost no one is satisfied with capitalism, but very few people want to return to socialism as an example of the late USSR, because its consequence is clear - collapse. And until its objective reason is revealed and a recipe is developed on how to avoid it in the future, there will be no enthusiasm.
            2. Kwas
              Kwas 22 August 2020 15: 57 New
              +2
              As far as I understand, the CPSU understood the difficulties of the economy, but just did not understand the difficulties of ideological work. First of all, they lied and kept silent about sensitive topics. As a result, ideological confrontation was blown through with a bang.
          2. evgen1221
            evgen1221 22 August 2020 15: 54 New
            +2
            Thanks for the support. It seemed to me that this, in general, is obvious to everyone. The Chinese hopefully will take into account our mistakes.
      2. sharp-lad
        sharp-lad 21 August 2020 22: 01 New
        +1
        How many people have gone through the GULAG? I ask you to subtract the frank thief from the total figures.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 22 August 2020 07: 27 New
          +2
          All the numbers are there. Go to the RSA website - this is the Russian state archive. It contains data by year, by region, and by article. Moreover, in photocopies of documents. Even "30 minutes" are taken into account and "minutes".
  • dgonni
    dgonni 21 August 2020 20: 21 New
    +5
    For which the go-ahead was given to liquidate Lev, it was written and rewritten. Leva, unfortunately, had a few vices. Each of which by itself could have led to such an outcome less likely. But there is no doubt in the general unity This was confirmed by the liquidation when none of the judges and jury even thought of doubting the motives.
    Do you know about his vices?
    So I'll tell you for them.
    They are all biblical, so Leva was neither a courteous follower of the Torah, nor the gospel, nor the code of the builder of communism.
    Leva most of all in his life loved money, women, and also had too long a tongue with which he earned himself bread with butter. And on butter he liked to lay caviar. And he did not like clothes of a military cut, for how could one roll up to a young lady in a jacket until the tongue turned on?
    So that's it. When in ancient 1927 when they began to plan the first five-year plan. And Davidovich was an ardent apologist for industrialization! The question of where to get money arose in full growth! In principle, Vissarionich did not have a question. Yes, the stump is clear where. Take away from the financing of the world revolution. And then Lev Davidovich loads money to the west in wagons, and capitalism is getting stronger and stronger. To which Leva strongly disagreed and did not want to return the money from the entrenched west. At the same time, he began to create factionalism in the party and publish his leaflets and newspapers with appeals at underground printing houses. For which he was, of course, excluded from the list of the old Bolsheviks and exiled first to Almaty and then to the decaying West.
    For? For it was impossible to put it against the wall at that time. The presence of archives and a significant dough (about a couple of annual budgets of the USSR) in foreign banks, as it were, did not contribute to this.
    In the course of all this business, Lev Davidovich did not deny himself anything to love any women. Which, in principle, is not scary and not criminal. But why go out with the wives of colleagues?
    Vissarionich, in principle, spat on Lyova. Although the money was really a pity, because there is not one magnet and Dniproges lay in the banks. But then Davidich became personal because he realized that he was disappearing into oblivion. And besides, he started Slavatb information on military plans.
    The stump is clear that Vissarionich, as an adequate leader, made a decision.
    And then an offended client turned up who had questions to Loew for the lady and about the money contributed for the benefit of the revolution.
    In general, curiosity ruins the cat. And Lyova had a murderous cocktail of women of money and intrigue.
    Well, to the point;).
    1. Dkuznecov
      Dkuznecov 30 August 2020 22: 16 New
      0
      Bravo. Well written.

      Stalin could not stand intrigue and "words to the wind"
      what was Trotsky famous for. Populism.

      Finally, Stalin began to ignore (and troll)
      the latter, when raking the Tsaritsyn's defense.
      Tsaritsyn defended, for which the city was renamed Stalingrad.
      (I was a schoolboy believed that these were the consequences of a cult, but it turned out -
      in 1925 this happened when Stalin was "only" the people's commissar
      for Nationalities).

      And about physical elimination ...
      First deprived Trotsky of his son
      (I don’t believe in an accident, Trotsky, by the way, too),
      and then he dealt with dad, who said a lot and did too much.
      I would sit in the shade, drink tequila, and eat lime.
      No, Trotsky continued the party under the classical zugzwang.
      He was impatient to spoil everything, the farts were already smoking with envy,
      that power slipped out of hand.
      For which he was beaten mercilessly.

      By the way, Trotsky was not allowed in the USA for the same reason as Mayakovsky.
      The reason is that the United States feared the ideas of communism in any form like the plague.
  • Pushkar
    Pushkar 21 August 2020 22: 43 New
    +3
    "However, after the death of Lenin, Trotsky did not manage to take over control, he was defeated by the Russian communists, supporters of Stalin." But what about the internationalism that was present in all the texts of the Charter of the VKPB, the CPSU? Are Lazar Kaganovich, Anastas Mikoyan, and Joseph Stalin himself also purely Russian communists? Maybe Orthodox Christians like the current "Russian communist" Gennady Zyuganov? Both the Country and the Party were at that time international.
  • Iskazi
    Iskazi 22 August 2020 07: 05 New
    0
    he knew too much ... that's why they killed him, but in general the story is very muddy ... and we are unlikely to find out the truth about it, but the material is so ...
    1. depressant
      depressant 22 August 2020 13: 51 New
      +1
      Yes, we do not know the whole truth about the neighbors))
      Who can tell everything about himself? At the time of the turning point in history, this is very dangerous - there will certainly be someone who will not use knowledge in a good way. And we are so "lucky" that we always live at a turning point. Trotsky did not understand this and got caught. Spun and did not get out)))
  • lelik613
    lelik613 22 August 2020 07: 57 New
    +2
    He violated the Sukharev Convention ...
  • Jager
    Jager 22 August 2020 17: 06 New
    0
    From the first lines I understood who the author is. It seems that Comrade Samsonov sometimes forgets to take the pills ...
  • Shore Cannes
    Shore Cannes 22 August 2020 19: 27 New
    0
    Trotsky is the first adherent of "controlled chaos." He was sent by the owners of the Federal Reserve System to create "permanent chaos" in Russia, but since he decided to spread the chaos further, the owners of the Federal Reserve System cut off his wings because "permanent chaos" in the territory they controlled was not part of their plans.
  • Sloboda0
    Sloboda0 22 August 2020 22: 15 New
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    A rather rare case. When good defeated evil. Let with a delay. Let it run out. But anyway...
    As I understand it, for this planet this is 1 chance in 1000. Moreover, this one was also a jude. And they are invulnerable, judging by the latest events.
    1. Shahno
      Shahno 22 August 2020 22: 22 New
      0
      Trotsky and Stalin? I do not know. And so Leo and Joseph are figures of the same scale ...
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