Military Review

Patrol modules won't save

281

Black Sea Patrol Ship fleet "Vasily Bykov" project 22160 made the transition to the Northern Fleet for testing weapons... This was reported on August 12 by the press service of the Russian Defense Ministry.



Patrol ship project 22160

With a high probability, we are talking about firing a cruise missile (CR) of a missile weapon complex (KRO) "Caliber" (in container design) from the waters of the White Sea.

So, will the new patrol ships of the Navy, which received the nickname "doves of peace" for the extreme weakness of weapons in the Navy, gain strength? Unfortunately no.

First. Container KRO


Actually, there is nothing original in the placement of the launcher (PU) in a standard container, and, by and large, reasonable. When this idea arose, its rationale was given, to put it mildly, far from adequate, they say, container ships will be at least all over the world, secretly having missile among the containers. Those who talked about this had no idea what international container shipping was.

On the technical side, placing a missile launcher in a standard 40-foot container is possible. However, the main question is: why?

In terms of disguise, disguise as a 40-foot container is pretty ridiculous. It can be compared with anti-ship missile launchers in Iran, which are made as compact as possible (just for camouflage!), But have a frame on which, if necessary, you can install any camouflage means (including "under the container").

A standard container for a launcher is obviously excessive in size and weight.

A separate problem is the "navigation" one: the initial exhibition of the "side" of the rocket with significant errors in the starting coordinate system (which we have in the "standard container"). We are looking at the "American analogue" - a rather compact lifting launcher for the Mk143 KR.


The first thing that catches the eye for all the compactness of P is its powerful foundation. What will be the "foundation" for our "missile container"? Thin deck flooring (usually without reinforced frames)? Of course, it is possible to "shoot" a rocket with such a "PU" (in quotes), but the question is in the limitations (primarily in excitement) and the characteristics of such a launcher.

As a matter of fact, they are so problematic that the fleet of such a "gift to industry" was unlocked as soon as it could. Before the appointment of V.V. Chirkov as commander-in-chief. After that, there were very fewer people who wanted to resist.

Moreover, there is nothing original in the launch itself with such a launcher. This has already been done! At the naval show in early 2010. a video of a vertical launch of a "caliber-shaped" rocket from the aft side of the BOD project 1155 was shown. And the answer to the question what it is is:


Those. everything is just "the contents of the patent" is installed in a "metal box" (highlighted in red in the figure) in the form of a 40-f container, and voila, "a new weapon has been invented"!

Moreover, this "wunderwaffe" was planned for projects!

A simple question arises: what prevented us from throwing out this innovative trash and just putting normal foundations on which, if necessary, classic inclined launchers (the same missiles) or anything else could be installed (see the upper cargo deck of the Absalon):


With the same mass of structures, the missile ammunition could be 1,5-2 times more, and, most importantly, these launchers could launch these missiles at a high pace and in conditions of developed excitement.

However, this sound and reasonable technical solution is too "non-innovative", and therefore the fleet is simply obliged to accept missile containers! After all, this is the XXI century!

It should be noted here that container KROs still have their own niche of efficiency. Moreover, they make sense and can be very valuable for the country's defense capability. But in no case in the existing (and reinforced, pushed in the Navy) appearance and concept. But this is the subject of a separate article.

Second. What modularity do we need?


One of the key issues with modern ships is their upgradability, and modularity can help a lot with that. But for this, such design solutions must be optimized, incl. with a breakdown of systems and complexes into fairly compact modular blocks.

Those. modularity is really advisable (and for the sake of it you can really sacrifice a part of the ship's combat qualities), but in the form of "compact" components, which ensures a real fast and effective modernization of ships. Strictly speaking, this is implemented in the MEKO programs (a number of others).


An example of a foreign container towed hydroacoustic station (BUGAS)

However, with our effective managers, modularity was reduced to "stuffing" everything and everything into 20- and 40-foot containers. A vivid example of this is the 40-foot container Minotaur (for projects 22160 and 20386).


Comparison with Western BUGAS is illustrative ... Ie. foreign developers did it so that their BUGAS could be delivered anywhere and in the shortest possible time, ours - so that it could be done only on projects 22160 and 20386.

And this is far from the most lethal example of our modularity, it's just public. Then everything is much funnier and sadder. The most accurate phrase for modularity being implemented today for the Russian Navy is insanity under the sauce of innovation. It is no coincidence that one of the major domestic specialists, during a discussion about the quality of our modular works, used an illustration of a public toilet in the form of a 40-foot container, indicating that there are such facilities under the requirements of the Maritime Register.

Third. "Modular ships"


More than enough is said about project 20386 in the article "Worse than a crime. Construction of project 20386 corvettes is a mistake".

But about the "foremost of the modularity of the Navy" patrol ships of the project 22160, a representative of which has now arrived for testing at the Northern Fleet, it must be said especially.

According to its developers, the idea of ​​creating such a ship belonged to V.V. Chirkov. and consisted of "minimum displacement for unlimited seaworthiness" to ensure low operating costs.

Here one cannot fail to note the trip of V.V. Chirkov. in the USA in 2013, where the modular ships of the LCS program were specially presented by the American side. The fact that by that time the catastrophic failure of the LCS program had already clearly emerged (details in the article "Combat systems of OVR corvettes") lobbyists on this topic, we were not interested (experts knew all this at once and warned many times).

L. P. Gavrilyuk, Doctor of Technical Sciences, JSC "TsTSS":

Loss of useful volumes in the ship's hull ... Out of about 3000 tonnes of displacement LBC (US Navy LCS), only 400 tonnes account for the payload, and replaceable combat modules account for about 180 tonnes. Secondly, the modules are mechanically fastened, as opposed to fastening on welding, requires special foundations or platforms with reinforcements, which complicates the layout of the ship. This problem is especially relevant for ships of small displacement.
... the transition to the MEKO concept for frigates and corvettes reduces the mass of their weapon systems by at least 30%.

Those interested are strongly encouraged to read the entire article "Modular principles of building warships". It should be understood that we are not implementing the "MEKO option", but in fact the stupid principle of the port warehouse, in which the loss of payload for ships is simply catastrophic.

For the sake of the main idea on the project 22160 innovative (for ships of this class) contours - "deep V" were used. They wanted to get an increase in seaworthiness. We got ... a complete blockage in speed. Instead of the initially promised 27 knots, Project 22160 ships barely managed to show 22 knots. Statements that 27 knots were “planned on German diesels”, which were under sanctions, were from the evil one, because the speed of 27 knots appeared many times in reports after 2014 and was finally “buried” only by devastating real tests of the lead patrol ship of Project 22160 ...

The innovative contours were conceived for seaworthiness. The sad irony is that if the ship were designed according to the "classics", then given the lower resistance of such a hull with the same 22 knots and power (half of the project 20380 corvette), it could have a displacement one and a half times more, the stabilizer ( which could not be squeezed into the small building of project 22160) and, accordingly, a lot more seaworthiness when solving problems as intended. Only in this version a simplified "patrol" version of the serial project 20380 is obtained. Modules and containers? They could be placed on the waist without any problems (with the new superstructure).

Real data on the pitching of Project 22160 ships during ocean crossings showed that already at 4 points of excitement, the possibilities of using a helicopter are extremely reduced. It's even worse with boats. Onboard RIBs do not have modern launching and lifting devices (RIBs), therefore, their use in waves is extremely difficult.


The widely advertised airborne assault armored boat DShL has low seaworthiness and 2 (two) points on the stern slip! This "charm" looked very clearly last year at the rehearsal of the parade in Sevastopol: on absolutely flat water, the DShL was able to go onto the slip not on the first attempt.

For any foreign "patrolman" helicopter and boats are their main working tools. And everything on the ship is subject to their effective use, incl. in severe stormy conditions. Our 22160 has a helicopter and boats. But ... for beach conditions.

The thesis about the low cost of patrol ships was buried by the MRK of the project "Karakurt", which, having powerful weapons, high speed, seaworthiness and turned out to be cheaper than the stupid and "toothless" patrol ships of the project 22160 (we are talking about the first "Karakurt" without the "Shell") ... Here it is worth recalling that the OVR corvettes, which were critically needed by the Navy, were sacrificed to the scam with the project 22160.

What to do?


Conclusions to do ...

Obviously, the construction of new ships of Project 22160 is out of the question, and something needs to be done with those already built.

Given their extremely low combat value, only one option is objectively visible - to the Baltic, to create a permanent patrol service for the Nord Stream route, the threats to which are quite real and specific. And they are no longer only "oral" and on Internet resources.

When SeaFox (which someone "accidentally lost") suddenly appears next to the "pipe" - this is serious. The device, by the way, after the discovery was blown up on the spot, and "for some reason" there was no desire to find out who still "lost" the modern ammunition.

The task of ensuring the safety of the "Nord Stream" is quite within the capabilities of patrol ships, provided they are equipped with special complexes and seagoing boats.
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  1. Fizik M
    Fizik M 19 August 2020 05: 21 New
    24
    a bit of "realism" from this "miracle-yudo" project 22160:
    "1. When driving at full speed (... More than 30 minutes), the collector pipe heats up over 1000 C. The high pressure oil pipes burst periodically.
    2. The main engines DRRA-6000 are controlled only in the automatic machine, in case of failure of the control unit on the control panel No. 1 of 27 parameters, 12 is displayed on the screen. Operation is impossible.
    3. Low power of the thruster. When the wind force exceeds 7 m / s into the side, it is impossible to throw the bow from the berth. When the ship is parked lagged to the berth, filming is possible only in support of tugs.
    4. When the sea roughness is 2 points or more, there is a beating of waves against the "Ryadan" along the ship's hull with strong vibration.
    5. In stormy weather, a large set of water hits the closed tank through the bow sluice (knocks out the plug), which breaks the insulation, shades and cables.
    6. In stormy weather, it constantly floods with water. "

    This is only for the car, driving and seaworthiness.
    This is the most harmless. I don't quote the rest, in order to avoid.

    http://www.balancer.ru/g/p8953689
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 19 August 2020 05: 34 New
      24
      sometimes, it seems that ships are designing and building pests, huge amounts of money are turning into trash incapable of war, tears and not the surface fleet.
      1. Wwk7260
        Wwk7260 19 August 2020 06: 21 New
        -11
        and the tanks? with separate loading, propelling charges of which are often thrown by tank turrets. as shown by their use by both parties in the conflicts of South Ossetia and Donbass.
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 19 August 2020 06: 31 New
          +9
          Quote: Wwk7260
          often throwing tank towers

          the "leopers" towers also fly
        2. Pirate
          Pirate 19 August 2020 07: 36 New
          -6
          Most of the patriots disagree with you! laughing
          1. Wwk7260
            Wwk7260 19 August 2020 07: 43 New
            -6
            this is why my limit on the site is five comments per day and my answer to you is the last for today repeat
            1. PSih2097
              PSih2097 19 August 2020 13: 51 New
              +2
              Quote: Wwk7260
              this is why my limit on the site is five comments per day and my answer to you is the last for today repeat

              register and write as much as you want ...
        3. Boris Chernikov
          Boris Chernikov 19 August 2020 18: 57 New
          +7
          So here you are! They are waiting for you at UVZ very much .. they urgently need intelligent designers .. can you tell me what kind of education you have?
      2. Doccor18
        Doccor18 19 August 2020 09: 00 New
        -5
        it seems that the ships are designed and built by pests, a lot of money is being turned into rubbish incapable of fighting ...

        Foreigners have always been afraid of Russians on the seas. Therefore, for a long time to this day, they have been making every effort to ensure that Russia does not have a fleet, and if it did, it would consist of 22160 and 20386 ...
        1. The comment was deleted.
      3. antivirus
        antivirus 19 August 2020 09: 14 New
        +2
        THERE WERE NO PESTS - there was a different vision of the world from 2000-10 - preparation for OI14-Sochi .. level of projects = responsibility in Southsetia - won and bashfully hid behind the notes of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. cautious Russian bear (not cowardly, but looks at the world with apprehension)
        NOW DR TIME - some talk about the big war
        CAUSES OF WAR -POWER OF CHINA AND DR ASIA -AMERIC-contradictions for a lot of money, past the US Federal Reserve, are already going into other pockets.
        Peaceful shells launched XX of containers into the war and drowned them. semi-disposable consumable.
        a powerful fleet for the threat to the West was not needed by the hands of the country, they were afraid to swear, endured spitting.
        etc
        the planning horizon of the country's life did not go beyond 5-10 years (all sorts of "2020" programs).
        And the oceanic fleet (see aircraft carriers and 1 rank) -50 YEARS AHEAD TO LOOK FORWARD ..
        In the wallets and pockets of corporations (yes, their capitalization did not allow thinking about world-projects and -domination) it is not so far to be seen - it is dark
        the inertia of the large system (finance) did not allow the dream of a fleet in 2030 -2050
        you can now start dreaming about 2050-70
        1. bayard
          bayard 20 August 2020 01: 52 New
          +3
          Quote: antivirus
          the inertia of the large system (finance) did not allow the dream of a fleet in 2030 -2050

          Yes, it was a normal dream then - we recall the shipbuilding program of 2009 - 2020. How many and what ships were planned?
          Corvettes - three dozen.
          Frigates - two dozen.
          And after them there are two options (they promised to decide which one will be in the tabs) - a destroyer with a nuclear power plant VI 18 tons, a destroyer with a gas turbine power plant VI 000. 12 KR per UKSK.
          I dreamed well. fellow
          But not a single program was drawn. smile
          Economic, foreign policy, technical and personnel realities. request
          AND SABOTAGE.
          WITH HARMFUL.
          As a result, they could not build, but from what they could ... they built. repeat
          But NOT THAT!
          bully The air smelled of ... treason ... yes
          1. antivirus
            antivirus 20 August 2020 08: 04 New
            +1
            I just read it, they gave me a warning - for "Skomorokhov" about AHL ..
            and you mean treason - everything is simpler - you did not share the profits and did not determine the shape of the future war at sea (did you not have enough intelligence in the headquarters?) - did not build it, because there is no point in spending money on yesterday
            1. bayard
              bayard 20 August 2020 18: 28 New
              +1
              Quote: antivirus
              and you mean treason - everything is simpler - you did not share the profits and did not determine the appearance of a future war at sea (did you not have enough intelligence in the headquarters?) - did not build

              And then what do we call treason?
              - not determined,
              - not built,
              - did not answer for their crimes.
              As a result - undermining the defense capability.
              Now officials are paid (by the enemies) not so that they blow up / poisoned / set fire to something, but so that they do ANYTHING at their posts, steal and do various stupid things.
              And "stupidity" is so ... "harmless" and "unmotivated" lol .
              Well, what to ask of a "stupid" person?
              He must be transferred to another job - to raise housing and communal services in Odintsovo, or as a deputy / advisor to the president of a state corporation.
              They - "idiots" there is the MOST PLACE. yes
              bully Corruption is the lubricant of treason. yes
              1. antivirus
                antivirus 20 August 2020 19: 06 New
                +1
                And then what do we call treason?
                - not determined,

                - money rules and maybe the maximum that the "stupid" in the headquarters of the MO-IMF could not turn in a bad direction. remained in place.
                and projects from the beginning of 00 are lagging behind, the revival of the 13th five-year plan.
                maybe rightly so that by 2030 we will not have projects of new ships from 1985.
                I am for: "patience and work will grind everything" - to build only ahead of time, this is not and will not be due to lagging, not projects, but living technologies (skills of people-culture of production).
                1. bayard
                  bayard 21 August 2020 00: 21 New
                  +1
                  Quote: antivirus
                  the maximum that the "stupid" in the MO-IMF headquarters could not turn in a bad direction.

                  And the construction of a whole series of these freaks?
                  Is this a "good" turn?
                  Or "stayed in place"?
                  After all, in order to return at least some seaworthiness, they need to digest the entire bow - under a NORMAL stem, without a stupid bevel at the end and an equally stupid ledge that increases resistance. Maybe then it will stop filling the tank on the move and the glazing of the cabin.
                  And still they will remain ugly.
                  In the yard, I repeat, 2020 is the time to be responsible for the given promises / obligations.
                  And not to the switchmen.
                  Who is responsible for the Ministry of Defense?
                  And who is he in front of?
                  And who, to whom, is he going to answer before the Source of Power in the Russian Federation? Before that Source, which authorized him to power?
                  Promised a lot ... fellow
                  25 million new jobs.
                  Highly paid. yes
                  Doubling GDP again ... smile
                  The Fifth Economy of the World. smile
                  "Until I am the president, there will be no increase in the retirement age." wink
                  And for the rearmament of the Army and the Navy ... there were also many promises. yes
                  But he could not even build military transport aircraft.
                  And it would seem - what is easier? There are neither stealth technologies, nor any innovations - the plane (glider) is old, proven, the engines are also not a novelty ... But ... "I didn't shmogla."
                  Even building an Il-76 was NOT a SLEEP!
                  In the yard 2020
                  It's time to answer for promises.
                  ... But our government is not accustomed to this - it is irresponsible.
                  And this irresponsibility of the authorities is the main asset of the modern RF.
                  And for this - her property, she will stand.
                  Quote: antivirus
                  "patience and a little effort"

                  - it's about something else.
                  Road spoon for dinner.
                  Especially in the war.
                  But for the one that "did not shmogla", everything is different - all around there are only "friends" and "partners". yes
                  bully She is fine .
          2. businessv
            businessv 20 August 2020 18: 14 New
            +1
            Quote: bayard
            AND SABOTAGE. WITH HARMFUL. As a result, they could not build, but from what they could ... they built. But NOT THAT! The air smelled of ... treason ...
            That's when you remember about the "enemies of the people" and how to deal with them!
            1. bayard
              bayard 20 August 2020 18: 33 New
              +1
              Quote: businessv
              That's when you remember about "enemies of the people"

              But we don't have Comrade Stalin in our Fatherland.
              And Comrade Beria ... also not. request
              But the "Trotskys", "Sverdlovs" and "Tukhachevskies" are in abundance.
              Flourish. bully yes
          3. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 25 August 2020 10: 28 New
            0
            Quote: bayard
            The air smelled of ... treason ...

            Just like in 1937
            1. bayard
              bayard 25 August 2020 17: 01 New
              0
              In 1937, the Land of Soviets had Comrade Stalin.
              And through the "Stalin's call", the power structures, updated with cadres.
              During the first five-year plan, there was also a lot of sabotage ... but tough measures on the "Industrial Party Case" showed WHAT the State would do with saboteurs and saboteurs.
              As a result, for 10 years the USSR, having made an ECONOMIC MIRACLE, entered the top of the leading countries of the World.

              Things are much worse now.
              And there is no COMRADE Stalin. request
  2. Fizik M
    Fizik M 19 August 2020 05: 34 New
    +8
    and a bit more harsh realities ...
    John Fisher #15.03.2014 13: 10
    PS Well, here's a comparison for speed.
    We take an almost complete analogue of the construction started at 22160 Ave. - serial corvettes of the 11661 Avenue “Cheetah” of Zelenodolsky Design Bureau. It is slightly longer and slightly larger in displacement (102 m versus 94 m and approx. 2000 m versus 1500-1800 m). Their maximum travel speeds are also close and are up to 30 knots. It would seem that the power of the power plant should be very close, because it is precisely chosen for the given maximum speed.
    So, a CODOG installation is announced for Cheetah, and two turbines of 11000 kW (14500 hp) are running at full speed, which makes up 22000 kW. At 22160 on the website of the designer it is stated that the installation has a capacity of up to 25000 kW! It turns out that for the same travel speed with the same displacement, it is necessary to buy and place a 13,5% more powerful power plant! Those. just with one stroke of the pen under someone's exhibition verbiage, we just stupidly raised our operating costs for fuel by an imaginary 10%! Fuel costs the same for ships of different classes. And what in return? Why will we pay 10% more for each going out to sea? Will we please ourselves with beautiful words from the exhibition, when the entire bow end will be flooded with dense streams of spray up to the glasses of the wheelhouse? And if winter and icing? You will have to reduce the travel speed to the lowest speed even if no one and nothing needs to work on the tank
    .

    http://www.balancer.ru/g/p3402631

    John Fisher #15.03.2014 13: 27
    There was also a high superstructure at 22460, but this did not help, and in an advertising form, the joyful and excited paper factory maremans captured their adventures in the Gulf of Finland (!!!), when they flooded the glass of the wheelhouse several times a minute for many seconds to full loss of visibility ... even the windshield wipers did not save you from the continuous stream of water pouring down the windows ... Look at what cutouts they made in the forecastle bulwark from the second order! If there were no flooding in fresh weather, they would have limited themselves to slotted cuts for draining small masses of water, and so they had to struggle with a full bath of water...


    sam7 #15.03.2014 13: 43
    Maybe the numbers on the Internet lie, because it turns out not even 13,5, but at least 25% (more power with less displacement, according to the Admiralty formula D in the degree of 2 / 3).
    It's hard to screw up like that. Maybe the speed of 22160 is actually higher?
    Although, after the panama with LK25 you can no longer be surprised at anything.
  3. Fizik M
    Fizik M 19 August 2020 05: 38 New
    +9
    and how this SCAM began -
    Deadushka Mitrich #01.03.2014 23: 47
    At all the whole story with this proZhEkt has a frankly punching scent of a railway station toilet, which has long been uncleaned by a local zolotar by a prosecutor In the Green Valley, a certain metal structure is frantically being laid, proudly called a new patrol ship, and not anyhow, but not [censored], [censored], or ... blah blah modular, cheap, and so on. At the same time, ATTENTION, there is neither a technical project, nor, accordingly, the examinations of the Central Research Institute of the Moscow Region and the Central Research Institute of Krylov, nor the competitive procedures preceding all this action, which are mandatory, it seems like recently... ... Modules are fairy tales for those who did not play enough Lego in childhood. In short, this [censored] is full of it, comrades!
    Since the fleet is desperate to get something cheap from the industry, then continue to sculpt 20380, only without Uranus and Vignettes, leave a place for them only for the future, and throw out [censored] Furke (simultaneously shooting all who had attitude towards him), replacing it with the good old "Positive". 630-ki and "Dagger" or something "dagger-like" leave. Instead of “Dawn,” something cheaper, like the MGK, one hell a few miles the difference in the range of the piano do not play. Leave the car 49, smokes, and [censored] with him. So much for the cheaper and the serial, otherwise the zoo will be bred again and wondered how to feed it!

    http://www.balancer.ru/g/p3385633
    1. bayard
      bayard 20 August 2020 03: 16 New
      +4
      Quote: Fizik M
      At the same time, ATTENTION, there is neither a technical project, nor, accordingly, the expertise of the Central Research Institute of the Ministry of Defense and the Central Research Institute of Krylov, nor the competitive procedures that precede all this action, which seem to be mandatory, it seems like recently.

      And now we are looking at the tab of the new UDC in the "Zaliv". lol
      The contractor is the same. yes
      Project - NO!
      GEM - NO.
      The embeddable sections are somehow strange, not corresponding to ships of this VI and class.
      They couldn't even sketch a sketch ... The picture on the poster ... amazing. lol ... in its absurdity.
      But the budget has already been allocated - 100 billion.

      ... So what are we seeing? repeat smile
      SA-BO-TAZH. bully
      And of course - HARMFUL. yes
      And not in special, but in EXTREME sizes.

      ... But we can't fight ...
      We have "no enemies".
      And if you look at the ENTIRE program of rearmament of the Army and the Navy, then you are simply amazed with what impudence they "sculpt a hunchback" about "unprecedented power" and ingenious plans of sun-faced leaders, from which icons are already being "written" ... with smalt (mosaic) .. ...
      Where are the AWACS aircraft (? !!!) critically needed to control the war in the air?
      Where are the anti-submarine aircraft?
      Where is the naval aviation?
      And fighter, and patrol, and MRA, and deck (for how many more Soviet helicopters there will be enough)?
      Tanker aircraft WHERE? If there is no way to wait for the new Il-78s based on the Il-76ML-90A from Ulyanovsk, then they would take a dozen three or four Il-76s from the storage bases, power them up, re-equip them - and go ...
      Military transport aircraft for the Great, Mighty, but compact and very mobile Army of the Russian Federation? What's left of her?
      .....
      And the simplest question - WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS EVERYTHING?
      In a country of victorious Capitalism?

      In the yard 2020
      Huge budgets have been spent on rearmament of the Army and Navy.
      Where?
      How many AWACS aircraft does Turkey have?
      Even Egypt, if memory serves, 7 pcs. "Khokaev"!
      And what about "the second most powerful Army of the World"?
      Six ?
      Seven ?
      Combat ready?

      ... In one fairy tale, the evil Vizier convinced the "kind, but naive" king to arm his Army with GLASS SWORDS - they looked so beautiful at reviews and parades ...
      And then the ENEMY came.
      And the kind but stupid king went out to battle.
      In general, he loved to play chess ...
      His soldiers were very courageous and loyal to the oath and the Fatherland ...
      But their swords were only enough for one blow ...
      And the whole army died.

      ... the tale is a lie?
      1. timokhin-aa
        20 August 2020 20: 01 New
        +1
        ... In one fairy tale, the evil Vizier convinced the "kind, but naive" king to arm his Army with GLASS SWORDS - they looked so beautiful at reviews and parades ...
        And then the ENEMY came.
        And the kind but stupid king went out to battle.
        In general, he loved to play chess ...
        His soldiers were very courageous and loyal to the oath and the Fatherland ...
        But their swords were only enough for one blow ...
        And the whole army died.


        Straight about us ...
        1. bayard
          bayard 21 August 2020 00: 35 New
          +1
          This tale was written by one smart woman in the early 90s, so it's definitely ABOUT US.
          And prophetically.
  4. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 19 August 2020 05: 48 New
    +1
    According to its developers, the idea of ​​creating such a ship belonged to V.V. Chirkov. and consisted of "minimum displacement for unlimited seaworthiness" to ensure low operating costs.
    fool fool fool As well as maximum speed and more weapons! what A ray of light in the dark kingdom. And the Russian land also gives birth to the Chirkovs. request
    In 1997 he graduated in absentia from the Naval Academy named after Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union N.G. Kuznetsov; Ear hook. Was it possible? request
  5. Fizik M
    Fizik M 19 August 2020 06: 04 New
    +8
    The High Command sees no prospect in the creation of ships previously designated as the OVR Corvette. One of the main tasks of the OVR is to ensure the protection and defense of the naval forces in the areas of naval bases and in the territories adjacent to them. This task is now performed by coastal surveillance equipment, stationary hydroacoustic stations and coastal missile and artillery troops armed with anti-ship missiles of various ranges, as well as anti-submarine and strike aircraft.
    Having abandoned the corvette, the Navy turned to the idea of ​​creating patrol ships - less armed, but with greater autonomy and versatility, capable, among other things, of going on long voyages. The development of the patrol ship project will be carried out by OJSC "Severnoye Design Bureau".

    © Navy Commander Chirkov. 2014



    There were no "stationary hydroacoustic stations" with the required parameters in 2014, and there are none now.
    However, the topic was actively lobbied by Chirkov's "good acquaintance" Mr. Zhandarov (formerly a senior lecturer at the Military Academy of the General Staff). Sensitive to his "public revelations":
    Sergey, 19:04, February 26, 2014: But because until I took up the solution to the problems with naval underwater weapons, ALL, I repeat, ALL respected persons to whom you and you have reported similar gubs hirnyu. And so I, realizing that everything is very crappy in the underwater war, realizing that there are no underwater weapons, realizing that the "minesweepers" and the prototypical "laperuzs" want to be doctors and great, then they swear everywhere and on the Kursk too FORCED to deal with this problem.

    Now the city of Zhandarov with a bang on the topic of the defense industry is exposed
    mina 2015-10-11 21:25:37
    Substantial. When I wrote about the "squeak from under the plinth" (in the comments to http://vpk-news.ru/articles/26820 ), didn't know yet.
    "Gendar Bender" ALL
    : canthearyou:
    it's just a pity that without "breaking the shoulder straps before the formation"
    now housing and communal services, they say "raises" (in the place of Muscovites, I would strain
    : D)

    https://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=122&p=31#p617753

    and is engaged in the resettlement of Tajiks in the basements in Odintsovo near Moscow

    This is how I manage the microdistrict .... at night, sometimes my elevators and platforms myself, .... - have I buried you and the rest of the rag-tag? Yes, I buried eggs, like GU ZF .... because I am for people, not for money.


    PS - this is a vivid illustration of how "issues were resolved" in the Navy belay
    Zhandarov is now with Tajiks in Odintsovo, and Chirkov - Chief Adviser to the President of the USC
    1. lopuhan2006
      lopuhan2006 19 August 2020 09: 37 New
      +8
      Fuck. It's a stump with one gyrus !!!! As soon as I put on my sword belt, I grow dull and dull. Tyrant and a log. And the full headquarters is still full of such logs. How do we create something in general?
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 19 August 2020 10: 27 New
        0
        Quote: lopuhan2006
        And the full headquarters is still full of such.

        Duc ... no wonder - with such teachers:
        However, the topic was actively lobbied by Chirkov's "good acquaintances," Mr. Zhandarov (previously Senior Lecturer of the Military Academy of the General Staff).
    2. Aag
      Aag 19 August 2020 13: 49 New
      +7
      "... Zhandarov is now with the Tajiks in Odintsovo, and Chirkov is the chief adviser to the President of the USC ..."
      This is not sadness, this is some kind of tin! am
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 19 August 2020 15: 10 New
        -3
        Quote: AAG
        This is not sadness, this is some kind of tin

        https://topwar.ru/157964-samaja-postydnaja-problema-vmf-jeks-admiraly-vysokopostavlennye-lobbisty.html
        https://mina030.livejournal.com/6080.html?thread=9920#t9920
        1. Aag
          Aag 19 August 2020 15: 22 New
          +1
          Thank you.
          Quote: Fizik M
          Quote: AAG
          This is not sadness, this is some kind of tin

          https://topwar.ru/157964-samaja-postydnaja-problema-vmf-jeks-admiraly-vysokopostavlennye-lobbisty.html
          https://mina030.livejournal.com/6080.html?thread=9920#t9920
  6. Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Obi-Wan Kenobi 19 August 2020 06: 14 New
    -16
    The article is sucked out of the finger.
    The author's personal opinion goes across the line of the party of designers-developers.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 19 August 2020 06: 21 New
      11
      Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi
      Article from the finger sucked

      How are you with vision?
    2. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 19 August 2020 08: 41 New
      13
      The author's opinion in my opinion is quite adequate, in contrast to. Yes, at the same time, tell us then what kind of combat mission is able to perform this miracle? I know to serve Target vessel... Not well, but cho. Chirkov, the general director and main shareholders of Zelenodolsk, and of course the chief designer of the project as a crew, should be "strongly invited" to the first event.
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 19 August 2020 09: 32 New
        +1
        the risk pension is received not by shareholders - but by sailors ........................................ .................................................. .................................................. ....................... actors only gray hair from thinking about the future of business
      2. Boris Chernikov
        Boris Chernikov 19 August 2020 19: 03 New
        -1
        interesting ... do people all have a memory like a fish? Patrolmen began to develop and laid down in 2014 ... a few years before that we had an atomic cruiser and the BOD went to scare pirates ... they were built under this brand to get a ship , which can be sent on a long voyage for minor targets. In 2014, the entire runet shouted about "we need modularity", which, in fact, was implemented
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 19 August 2020 19: 12 New
          +5
          Quote: Boris Chernikov
          From this brand they were built in order to get a ship that can be sent on a long voyage for minor targets.


          Listen, this question was solved, if desired, in exactly a year and a half from the word in general and very cheap. It was only necessary to pick up 4-6 serviceable trawlers, paint a ball into a ball, stick an AK-630 + TV, a pair of Uranus launchers, 2-3 ZU-23 in sea version, Flexible, make a foundation for attaching the Thor and the runway just in case in the stern. On the slip, ensure the reception of the DSL. The whole issue has been resolved. Adequate people, not our admirals, the couple did the right thing ..


          Quote: Boris Chernikov
          In 2014, the entire runet shouted about "we need modularity", which, in fact, was implemented


          and. I didn't yell.
          b. Secondly, what are you talking about, what kind of modularity is implemented?
          1. Boris Chernikov
            Boris Chernikov 19 August 2020 19: 47 New
            -6
            A) shouted) wassat
            B) If the Ministry of Defense had exactly what bought the trawlers ... painted it, put machine guns ... it would have stood again that we can't build a ship for ourselves and shame, we are remaking civilian ships ..
            1. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 19 August 2020 19: 52 New
              +5
              Quote: Boris Chernikov
              A) shouted)

              Why are you lying then?

              Quote: Boris Chernikov
              If the Ministry of Defense had exactly what bought the trawlers ... painted, put machine guns ... it would have stood again,

              The task was here and now, and not in the beautiful far away. The execution of tasks was disrupted. And by the way, 1500 tons / and it is LITTLE for the patrolman. And I assure you 2 months at sea at 745P, to put it mildly hard ... V \ and 745 P you can see for yourself ...
              1. Boris Chernikov
                Boris Chernikov 19 August 2020 20: 01 New
                -7
                laughing Why lie? I have been using the Internet for 12 years and remember the whole epic "but the Americans now have a modular scheme, And we have nothing" .. about "here and now" .. and then? with the same success you can say that it is not necessary make tanks, and take trucks and put guns on them and sheathe them with iron ... well, what ... also a "tank" ...
                1. Cyril G ...
                  Cyril G ... 19 August 2020 20: 22 New
                  +4
                  Quote: Boris Chernikov
                  and I remember the whole epic "but the Americans now have a modular scheme,


                  Adequate ones always reminded of Stanflex.
                  1. Boris Chernikov
                    Boris Chernikov 19 August 2020 20: 24 New
                    -4
                    laughing but the requirement was-needed modular ships. In general, I do not see anything wrong, the main thing is that the modules are actually purchased and the crew can use them.
                    1. Fizik M
                      Fizik M 19 August 2020 21: 38 New
                      +7
                      Quote: Boris Chernikov
                      but the requirement was - modular ships were needed

                      fool
                      Whose "requirement"?!?! And who needs this crap except those who sawed the loot on it?
                      1. Boris Chernikov
                        Boris Chernikov 19 August 2020 21: 51 New
                        -2
                        of the world trend, at the end of the XNUMXs and the beginning of the tenths everyone was striving for modularity .. I repeat ... the question is not "bad or good modularity in others", but in how it will be implemented in the end with us, if they can do that the ship to convert from an anti-submarine to a drummer in one day, then it will be good
                      2. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 August 2020 22: 06 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        of the global trend, in the late XNUMXs and early XNUMXs, everyone was striving for modularity.

                        Do not hurt the crap, it hurts!
                        One of the links to REALITIES and specialists in the text is given.
                        However, the "container insanity" of the Russian Navy had nothing to do with this!
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        that the ship in one day from an anti-submarine to a drummer to convert

                        fool
                        especially when the "antisubmarine" "suddenly needs" ABSENT anti-ship missiles, and the "striker" PLO (about "how" this "striker" will be able to "use" (in quotes) KRO in a storm, not to mention)
                    2. Nemchinov Vl
                      Nemchinov Vl 24 August 2020 01: 53 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Fizik M
                      Whose "requirement"?!?! And who needs this crap except those who sawed the loot on it?
                      how interesting it is sometimes to discuss with you (together with Timokhin), ....?! Tell Maxim (if possible without rudeness and disdain), BIUS Requirement-M
                      and BIUS Sigma are so different that they directly exclude the interaction of NK ?! RSL helicopters KA 27 PL, "do not see not that, not that BIUS ", or in fact it can be corrected (and by means of what ?!), for "real interaction, say on the principle of participation of network-centric wars in real time" .... And how do the BOD 1155 interact with the "Lumberjack" now, with other ships of the order ?!
                    3. Fizik M
                      Fizik M 24 August 2020 13: 30 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Nemchinov Vl
                      And how do the BOD 1155 interact with the "Lumberjack" now, with other ships of the order ?!

                      MATYUGALNIK
                      and it's also good if by the ZAS
                      see the teachings with the French, where they were crazy about our "bossy swearing" on the open HF
                      Quote: Nemchinov Vl
                      BIUS Requirement-M

                      there are good specialists and I consider it acceptable to preserve 2 BIUS Sigma and Requirements
                      incl. for competition
                    4. Fizik M
                      Fizik M 24 August 2020 13: 31 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Nemchinov Vl
                      RSL helicopters KA 27 PL, "they don't see the wrong

                      see my NVO article on naval aviation
    3. Fizik M
      Fizik M 19 August 2020 19: 31 New
      +2
      Quote: Boris Chernikov
      In 2014, the entire runet shouted about "we need modularity"

      don't bullshit hurt her
      1. Boris Chernikov
        Boris Chernikov 19 August 2020 22: 07 New
        -5
        but you do not hurt yourself and you will be happy)
  • Sahalinets
    Sahalinets 19 August 2020 06: 19 New
    +5
    22160 is a monument to the closeness of our admirals. At one time, the project was created with an eye to fighting Somali pirates, so as not to knock out the resource of the few remaining ships of the 1st rank. As a result, the series is almost completed, but the pirates are gone. And now they do not know where to attach this miracle.
    And with containers is an old topic. Yes, they once advertised a rocket container. But putting this on a civilian ship means stupidly violating international law. To raise the flag of the Navy is to deprive the carrier of stealth. In other words, it is a weapon for terrorists. But then it did not go, but some people lobbied for its development. And the admirals are happy to put them on 22160, so that the senseless ships look better, and as part of the president's instructions - more calibers!
    1. PSih2097
      PSih2097 19 August 2020 14: 05 New
      0
      Quote: Sahalinets
      Yes, they once advertised a rocket container. But putting this on a civilian ship means stupidly violating international law.

      countries of the 3rd world do not care about the flag from the beginning, it was for this that Club-K was created.
    2. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 19 August 2020 19: 05 New
      -1
      containers with missiles can be legally placed on a regular ship by declaring it a military one, which allows you to quickly increase the number of launchers in a particular region ... not to mention the fact that they were made taking into account the restrictions on land-based missile launchers. It's not that the containers are bad , but the fact that a series of containers with filling has not yet been developed and a scheme for their use has not been worked out.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 19 August 2020 19: 26 New
        +4
        Quote: Boris Chernikov
        missile containers can be legally placed on a regular ship by declaring it a military ship

        DULL (for "classic") NORMAL foundations are made and NORMAL INCLINED PU
        as a result, the BC is at least 2 times larger, and there are no extremely serious launch restrictions for this "missile-container CRAZY"
        1. Boris Chernikov
          Boris Chernikov 19 August 2020 19: 48 New
          -6
          those. instead of one "difficult" decision, do you propose to make another, similarly more complex? Containers are good because you take two containers and that's it, you have a combat-ready ship, hand over the control center and fire up the missiles.
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 19 August 2020 20: 00 New
            +2
            Quote: Boris Chernikov
            The good thing about the containers is that you take two containers and that's it, you have a combat-ready ship, hand over the control center and fire up the missiles.

            fool
            The fact that vEmefe (with the oh ... th desire of Vitka Chirkov to do this) DOESN'T IMMEDIATELY DO IT, does it remind you of anything?
            By the way, paint with a brush will be even faster laughing - with a similar combat "efficiency"
            1. Boris Chernikov
              Boris Chernikov 19 August 2020 20: 17 New
              -2
              these are already our Wishlist and reality .. In fact, the very idea of ​​modularity needs to be investigated, so there will be no big trouble from 6 patrolmen and a pair of corvettes .. I personally am waiting for the start to lay super MPK based on Karakurt ..
              1. Fizik M
                Fizik M 19 August 2020 21: 04 New
                +3
                Quote: Boris Chernikov
                In fact, the very idea of ​​modularity needs to be explored.

                RESEARCHED
                see Gavrilyuk
                only BABLO SAWED ON OTHER:
                And this is far from the most lethal example of our modularity, it's just public. Then everything is much funnier and sadder. The most accurate phrase for the modularity that is being implemented today for the Russian Navy is insanity under the sauce of innovation. It is no coincidence that one of the major domestic specialists, during a discussion about the quality of our modular works, used an illustration of a public toilet in the form of a 40-foot container, indicating that there are such facilities under the requirements of the Maritime Register.

                Quote: Boris Chernikov
                big trouble from 6 patrolmen

                fool
                for their sake ALREADY FUCKED a series of OVR corvettes !!!
                1. Boris Chernikov
                  Boris Chernikov 19 August 2020 21: 15 New
                  -1
                  about tula, this is a question for the researchers since they have not figured out exactly how to use this opportunity .. in some places the military is very ... stiff and inhibited) .. about "already lost" .. I would not say, corvettes are being built, but the idea of ​​OVR corvettes .. what was the project proposed?
                  1. Fizik M
                    Fizik M 19 August 2020 21: 37 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Boris Chernikov
                    corvettes are under construction

                    last bookmark was in 2016
                    Quote: Boris Chernikov
                    OVR corvettes idea

                    it was not an "idea", but a DOCUMENT - GPV
                    1. Boris Chernikov
                      Boris Chernikov 19 August 2020 21: 45 New
                      0
                      So what project is it supposed to build? Regarding the fact that at the moment there are no bookmarks for new corvettes, a week ago Shoigu announced that a contract for 6 corvettes 20380 would be signed with the ASZ by the end of the year. 20385 or for an improved project. Well, or completely go into frigates. In any case, no one refuses to build corvettes
                      1. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 August 2020 22: 02 New
                        +4
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        regarding the fact that at the moment there are no bookmarks of new corvettes, a week ago Shoigu

                        how many people and time KICKED this question YOU have an idea?
                        And I'm not even saying that it was not an initiative of the Navy or the RF Ministry of Defense, but an ORDER of the President!
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        no one refuses to build corvettes

                        AGAIN
                        last bookmark was in 2016
                        and corvettes HERILIS
                        INTENTIONALLY see scam from 20386
                      2. Boris Chernikov
                        Boris Chernikov 19 August 2020 22: 06 New
                        -4
                        when exactly? when did the ASZ cheat and set a price with which it clearly could not have completed the project? or when the northerners took up other orders? that the Patrolmen were building factories that were NOT building corvettes at the same time
                      3. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 August 2020 22: 32 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        when did the ASZ cheat and set a price at which it clearly could not complete the project?

                        YOU are a "virgin girl" do not pretend that you do not "understand" why the price has skyrocketed.
                        Moreover, even today, corvettes can be successfully built at the "old" price, one has only to throw out the "golden weights" from it.

                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        Patrolmen were building factories that were NOT building corvettes at the same time

                        ONCE AGAIN
                        THEY COULD EASILY BUILD OVR corvettes
                        for example the so-called "black Jack"
                      4. Boris Chernikov
                        Boris Chernikov 19 August 2020 23: 25 New
                        -4
                        1) who exactly? Kerch? Or Zelenodolsk?) And what are they building RTOs then .., 2) if you don’t know the story with prices, then you don’t need to talk about "could build at the old price" .., 3) if you don’t know the name of the project, then there is no need to cram in imported nicknames, use the search and write .. at the time of the abandonment of the ravine corvettes there were no specific projects, but there were mrii about the construction of a modern fleet. There is nothing to say about the construction of corvettes in small shipyards without a sane project, only now there have been rumors about the construction of an MPC based on karakurt, but with vertical structures ... And about the fact that 20380 corvettes have already been built before the patrolman and will be built further, a fact ... the rest you yourself come up with in the style of "if the grandmother had a hell, she would be a grandfather"
                      5. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 20 August 2020 00: 21 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        and what are they then building RTOs

                        because "some" really want to cut the loot on "buoys" and shove them into the fleet
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        if you don’t know the history with prices, then you don’t need to talk about "could build at the old price" ..,

                        I know her TOO well
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        if you don’t know the name of the project, then you don’t need to cram in imported nicknames

                        it's enough for me that this word is used by the Chief Designer, experts understand this and the project number is encrypted in it
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        at the time of the abandonment of the ovre corvettes, there were no specific projects

                        1. There were DEVELOPMENTS. Which in 9 (NINE) months became a techno-working project
                        2. What about the PC? but there was this (there were not even preliminary studies there!)
                        Deadushka Mitrich #01.03.2014 23: 47
                        At all the whole story with this proZhEkt has a frankly punching aroma of the station's toilet, which has long been uncleaned by the local goldsmith by the prosecutor. stuffed with censorship], not that ... blah blah blah modular, cheap and so on. At the same time, ATTENTION, there is neither a technical project, nor, accordingly, the examinations of the Central Research Institute of the Moscow Region and the Central Research Institute of Krylov, nor the competitive procedures preceding all this action, which are mandatory, it seems like recently... ... Modules are fairy tales for those who have not played enough Lego in childhood. In short, this [censored] is full of it, comrades

                        and it FACT
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        There is nothing to say about the construction of corvettes in small shipyards without a sane project

                        DON'T SHOOT SHOULD HER HURT
                        22800 on Pella made FASTER than the head 1234 in the USSR
                      6. Boris Chernikov
                        Boris Chernikov 21 August 2020 13: 46 New
                        -2
                        so do not beat yourself and you will not be hurt, not a single designer will call his project with import names, the funny thing is that you could not name either the design bureau, or the surname, or the project number, which already says that you know nothing and poke 2-3 identical phrases. Free
                      7. timokhin-aa
                        21 August 2020 13: 57 New
                        +1
                        He simply cannot name the public number of the project, which has not been announced anywhere. But from this he does not cease to exist. I also know him and also write it as 1166X. So we have everything.
                      8. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 21 August 2020 15: 31 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        do not beat yourself and you will not be hurt, no designer will name his project

                        Monsieur YOU ducks in the couch are tired of waiting wink
                        and as for this GK - he loves cards laughing
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        you could not name either the design bureau, or the surname, or the project number

                        1. YOU are spelled with a capital
                        2. YOU ARE NOBODY and call YOU NO. "Demand" from your "ducks in the bathroom"
                        Quote: Boris Chernikov
                        what already says what

                        how much YOU HAVE DONE above indicates that YOU need to change diapers for a long time lol
    3. Nemchinov Vl
      Nemchinov Vl 23 August 2020 14: 43 New
      -1
      Quote: Fizik M
      for their sake ALREADY FUCKED a series of OVR corvettes !!!
      the Navy currently DOES NOT HAVE ANY ONE (!!) project corvette, which, if not 100, then at least 90% would correspond to the tasks of the OVR, in terms of the composition of its weapons (!)... 20380 which you and Timokhin present as - "the very thing!", In its essence, - is MARRIAGE (!), with an unreasonably high price !!while incapacitated to carry out direct tasks as intended.
  • timokhin-aa
    21 August 2020 08: 32 New
    +1
    In fact, the very idea of ​​modularity needs to be investigated, so there will be no big trouble from 6 patrolmen and a pair of corvettes ..


    What prevented one test ship from building? While we have such math - a series of patrol officers is 2016 billion in 36 prices, and 20386 is about 30. Taking into account the number of improvements that were already in 20386 (the ship was in fact "reborn" from 2016 to 2019), you can safely screw it here again one ten.

    Roughly these saws ate about 76 billion, which in prices of the same year means about 4 corvettes 20380 or one naval assault aviation regiment on the Su-30SM.

    But we don't have time to whine about the fact that we don't have much money and the arms race will ruin us.
    1. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 21 August 2020 13: 47 New
      -1
      the fact that no shipyard will bother for the sake of one ship from the word at all, therefore they always lay a series
      1. timokhin-aa
        21 August 2020 13: 56 New
        +1
        The shipyard does not order ships or vessels, but builds what will be paid for. And single projects - in bulk. This is verbiage.
        1. Boris Chernikov
          Boris Chernikov 24 August 2020 22: 13 New
          0
          but where did I write about the shipyard orders? I don’t need to attribute your fantasies .. For any shipyard, it is interesting that there is a large series to load itself with work for the longest time possible .. and yes .. a simple question .. where exactly were the patrolmen built? when are these shipyards ready to build corvettes? The whole problem of your opinion is that you think in "game standards" in the style of .. "oh, you ordered this, but you could have ordered that!", without thinking that in reality the shipyards that were able to build corvettes, unexpectedly, and so were loaded with orders ..
          1. timokhin-aa
            25 August 2020 15: 12 New
            +1
            not thinking that in reality, shipyards that were able to build corvettes, unexpectedly, were loaded with orders ..


            This is simply not true. Just one example - one corvette could have been laid at the northern shipyard in spring 2019. Instead, they began to dock the corps to 20386, to which there is no power plant and is not expected in the foreseeable future, that is, it will stand as a monument.

            What is this talking about? Another example is Zelenodolsk. 20380 cannot pass along the river, it will not give a draft, but it was not a problem to deliver it on pontoons without a mast and GAS. To install the mast and GAS in Kerch - too. But instead of normal ships, a series of freaks 22160 was laid.
            It's just that no one needs to develop the fleet systematically, as a military organization, that's all.
          2. Boris Chernikov
            Boris Chernikov 26 August 2020 22: 38 New
            0
            those. it turns out that the Northerners could only lay down 1 project, and in Zelenodolsk it was necessary to pervert and supply a half-assembled ship somewhere else?). Following your logic, in the 22nd year, Kerch and Zelenodolsk should begin to rivet pr. 20380 .. the funny thing is that at one time, when plans for the development of 20386 were announced right there on TopVara, everyone wrote with happiness shouting that "finally we will live like normal countries with modular ships ") about the patrolmen, I have already written above several times .. I see no reason to repeat myself
          3. The comment was deleted.
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    2. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 27 August 2020 20: 25 New
      0
      by the way, on the topic of the conversation ... three facts from the last days that you should visit:
      1) ASZ signed a contract for the construction of corvettes 20380.
      2) Northern shipyards also signed for the construction of not only frigates, but also corvettes 20380, but also, attention, 20385.
      3) The most interesting ... Zelenodol residents let the Army know that the Ministry of Defense became interested in the concept project of the Skr Cheetah, with, attention, 24 PU Caliber instead of the current 8, and without significant alteration of the ship ..
    3. timokhin-aa
      27 August 2020 22: 27 New
      +1
      by the way, on the topic of the conversation ... three facts from the last days that you should visit:
      1) ASZ signed a contract for the construction of corvettes 20380.


      It seems they haven't signed yet? Otherwise, I'm a little in the know. laughing

      https://topwar.ru/174057-pobeda-zdravogo-smysla-korvety-vozvraschajutsja-poka-dlja-tihookeancev.html

      Look, by the way, you may be curious to compare, so to speak, the beginning of the process and the end. And there are your comments there, too, back in 2018.

      3) The most interesting ... Zelenodol residents let the Army know that the Ministry of Defense became interested in the concept project of the Skr Cheetah, with, attention, 24 PU Caliber instead of the current 8, and without significant alteration of the ship ..


      This is fornication, as is their second idea of ​​the 21631-overgrown. According to the mind, it is necessary to plant for sabotage, but we have not those times. The downside is that Tryapichnikov is on their side. At least in words.
    4. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 28 August 2020 14: 03 New
      0
      I didn’t write anything there)) I don’t remember such an article, regarding SuperBuyanov, I agree, the idea is rotten, but you can understand them, they want orders. It will not work to plant for sabotage - we do not have such an article, they only offer options. Regarding Cheetah, I would did not agree ... Shoigu does not want new projects, so the likelihood of launching the Karakurt MPK is doubtful, but the finished Cheetah is very interesting, if only I took something in between the Vietnamese version with a bomb launcher and torpedo tubes with a platform for a helicopter and a launcher, even let there be only 16 of them, let's say ..
    5. timokhin-aa
      28 August 2020 15: 13 New
      +2
      there I did not write anything))


      You commented on the very first article about the corvette 20386 like ...

      but the finished Cheetah is very interesting


      So on the basis of Cheetah, a project was made, on the theme of which you argued with Klimov, "blackjack" 1166X.
      But for some reason it is not exposed. And it could turn out to be an interesting ship.
    6. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 28 August 2020 22: 36 New
      -2
      Klimov screwed up there, the only thing he remembered about some kind of "blackjack" and that this is what the designer himself called it ... in general, I laughed at him) .. in general, I heard about a real project about 11664, there was just a synthesis of Vietnamese a cheetah with Caliber ... in principle, pretty good, on the one hand, the new shipyard will be able to build it, the project is generally understandable, due to the weakening of the air defense by installing the Pantsir-M, the ship will be cheaper, but massive, and the presence of a larger number of TLUs will help close the issue of coastal defense
    7. Fizik M
      Fizik M 29 August 2020 12: 24 New
      +1
      Quote: Boris Chernikov
      . in general, I laughed at him).

      Monsieur, YOUR Murzilian opinion is floating fine laughing
      Quote: Boris Chernikov
      in general, I heard about a real project about 11664, there was just a synthesis of a Vietnamese cheetah with Caliber ... in principle, pretty good

      in general, Monsieur YOU "heard something", but THINK is not yours lol
      11664 is not a project but a MODEL for an exhibition
      and for a number of indicators, frankly *
      however, he was a real demonstration of the "approach" of Mr. Mistakhov, when instead of really promising VIP projects, CRASH is shown
    8. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 30 August 2020 23: 37 New
      -2
      I will open one simple moment - any project started with a layout, and they were always bad in terms of their performance) there was always "but better" .. the same 20380 was also UG at the development stage, and even now it is far from ice) .. so what .. go by and there affirm if you can’t say anything about the case, but show your "Ge" in another place
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  • Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 28 August 2020 22: 45 New
    -2
    and if our Ministry of Defense nevertheless dopetrit to cross an elephant with a rhinoceros and modernize the AK-306 and AK-630 anti-aircraft guns by equipping them with anti-aircraft missiles, ideally of course 9M340, but also from Igla / Verba (hello from Gibka), then this will significantly strengthen the ship's air defense at minimal cost ..
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 29 August 2020 12: 27 New
    +2
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    and if our Ministry of Defense nevertheless dopetrit to cross an elephant with a rhinoceros and modernize the AK-306 and AK-630 anti-aircraft guns by equipping them with anti-aircraft missiles, ideally of course 9M340, but also from Igla / Verba (hello from Gibka), then this will significantly strengthen the ship's air defense at minimal cost ..

    Well, strain your cerebellum, WHY they refused this option (and after the REAL SHOOTING OF THE EXPERIMENTAL MODEL)
    As for YOU Monsieur, the statements about the installation of MANPADS on ship MZA (!!!) wassat clearly demonstrates YOUR IQ (around 30 lol )
    Why did YOU blast nonsense on this issue (moreover, this is done in land-based AIAs, and THERE it is effective) do it yourself, or should you whip YOU again?
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  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 29 August 2020 13: 38 New
    0
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    nevertheless, it will petrate to cross an elephant with a rhinoceros and modernize the AK-306 and AK-630 anti-aircraft guns by equipping them with anti-aircraft missiles, ideally of course 9M340,


    This is uniform folly
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  • Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 30 August 2020 23: 46 New
    -2
    by the way .. about stupidity .. it turns out that the Broadsword and Pantsir-M are similar uniform stupidity .. or is it "different"?)
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 29 August 2020 12: 28 New
    +2
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    the finished Cheetah is very interesting, if only I took something in between the Vietnamese version with a bomb launcher

    fool
    YOU are delusional! NO RBU ON VOTNAMTSA !!!
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  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 29 August 2020 12: 33 New
    +3
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    3) The most interesting ... Zelenodol residents let the Army know that the Ministry of Defense became interested in the concept project of the Skr Cheetah, with, attention, 24 PU Caliber instead of the current 8, and without significant alteration of the ship ..

    "Zelenodol residents" did not say ANYTHING
    after the ZPKB was in "AkBars" the "mouth" there was tightly covered for everyone
    so much so that on the "Army-20" even SPECIALS WERE NOT (they were NOT SPECIALLY taken), there were only "tops" and "managers" who "sang" only what the "tops" told them
  • Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 31 August 2020 00: 26 New
    -3
    Well, what can I do that I do not share them ..
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 21 August 2020 15: 34 New
    +1
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    the fact that no shipyard will bother for the sake of one ship from the word at all, therefore they always lay a series

    those. about 20386, 685, etc. YOU have been banned from Google lol
    I'm not talking about the fact that there is such a thing as OCD
    1. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 30 August 2020 23: 42 New
      -1
      And the fact that any shipyard between the "wild ROC" and a large series will choose the second .. again, not about you .. well, yes .. because it's easier to blame others for the fact that they do not know how to think) but what is a banal economic component by the way? .. it's very funny how everyone here yelled about "here they betrayed, now they will only do 20386" .. provided that in the end they ordered 20380 and 20385 ... well, yeah ... funny, thanks, laughed with the Nostradamus)
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 31 August 2020 13: 21 New
        +2
        Quote: Boris Chernikov
        it's funny how everyone here yelled about "here they betrayed, now they will only do 20386"

        fool
        boy, are you quite cuckoo?
        VO was the ONLY media where tough questions were posed for 20386!
        Moreover, there were articles that were shot in publications in the top media on this topic!
      2. Boris Chernikov
        Boris Chernikov 31 August 2020 16: 16 New
        -1
        to someone really should be a little more than anyway what is written on the Internet?) now really self-esteem should jump to the ceiling with you) .. probably then LJ or VK in general we have mega-expert sources) so go get established " boy "elsewhere)
      3. Fizik M
        Fizik M 31 August 2020 16: 58 New
        +2
        Quote: Boris Chernikov
        someone really should be a little more than all the same to what is written on the Internet

        specifically in the Ministry of Defense, for example, specifically Zamnach GOU GS
        I have a paper with his signature in the AP
        on articles of VO

        what squeals from each publication were in "kanash" (DIMK) they told me with fur ..., no, not from there - higher laughing
      4. Boris Chernikov
        Boris Chernikov 31 August 2020 17: 00 New
        -1
        it remains only to confirm your words ... but so far only empty words) but you can continue to believe in them)
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  • Nemchinov Vl
    Nemchinov Vl 24 August 2020 02: 13 New
    -1
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Roughly these saws ate about 76 billion
    that is, they did not give life to at least 4th undercut 20380 (at an unreasonably high price and incapacity), or 5 (or even 6) corvettes 11664?! which, with the correct construction of those tasks, can meet the requirements of the OVR ship in terms of the composition of weapons ?! or "out of your clip" .... ?!
    1. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 24 August 2020 22: 11 New
      0
      and where to build them?)
      1. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl 27 August 2020 23: 07 New
        0
        Quote: Boris Chernikov
        and where to build them?)
        nothing would prevent them from being built at the Zelenodolsk plant and at the "Zaliva" (two shipyard !!) (!). Currently, they would be much more needed than helicopter carriers (without a project and a ready tested power plant (?)) (!), or incapacitated 20380 (!).
        1. Boris Chernikov
          Boris Chernikov 28 August 2020 14: 06 New
          -1
          In what year? The gulf was dulled only by 2016 and somehow began to establish the construction of ships. Regarding the UDC and the type "we need corvettes" .. the Navy has its own opinion on this matter and at those shipyards where the UDC is being erected to build corvettes .. komilfo .. the same as carrying 10 bags of cement on Kamaz
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 19 August 2020 06: 22 New
    +6
    and one more aspect of this story:
    The question is about the "responsible official" in this area in the DOGOZ of the RF Ministry of Defense. It was almost a “legendary” personality of the recent history of the Navy - ex-Head of the Surface Ship Department DOGOZ AA Sobolevsky, who “gloriously” “steered” our surface shipbuilding in the late 2000s and early 2010s. (ie in the years of the "Serdyukov pogrom" of the Main Command of the Navy), which directly oversaw the development and procurement of our surface shipbuilding.

    https://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1366#p908937
  • pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 19 August 2020 06: 24 New
    +4
    The author fills the office, does not let the boys chop the grandmother. Now they would have sold +100500 to any Mauritius ... Or is it "the order of competitors"?
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 19 August 2020 06: 28 New
      +4
      Quote: pmkemcity
      Or is it a "competition order"?

      canechna laughing
      only here is problemS - in view of "special viciousness of my character" angry I set the "bar of requirements" to "friends" much higher than "in general", I demand tests that are as close to real combat conditions as possible (or I conduct myself), etc. bully
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 19 August 2020 06: 43 New
        +4
        Quote: Fizik M
        canechna
        only problemS - in view of the "special viciousness of my character", I set the "bar of requirements" to "friends" much higher than "in general";

        On your part, it would be tolerant to make a detailed review of similar competing ships on the world market. Much is learned by comparison. Maybe they "fill in" the same? And so, a typical yacht of an oligarch - armed, with a boat, with a helicopter, only a mini-submarine is missing.
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 19 August 2020 06: 48 New
          13
          Quote: pmkemcity
          tolerantly make a detailed review of similar competing ships on the world market

          intolerant
          for THEM HAVE THEIR TASKS
          we have OUR
          and they are quite different
          The patrolmen themselves are certainly needed, but one of the key and objectively facing requirements for our PC is 2 helicopters. Etc.

          As for the fundamental differences between 22160 and Western PCs, this is that Western ones are "sharpened" for work with boats and a helicopter in conditions of developed excitement (that is, the fact that our 22160 is obviously "not Schmoget")
          Example:
          1. pmkemcity
            pmkemcity 19 August 2020 06: 57 New
            -6
            Quote: Fizik M
            intolerant
            for THEM HAVE THEIR TASKS
            we have OUR
            and they are quite different

            The tasks of both "us" and "them" are the same - to sell bullshit to the sucker, and to blame the Canary Islands.
          2. pmkemcity
            pmkemcity 19 August 2020 07: 08 New
            +9
            Quote: Fizik M
            Example:

            One day in 88, Perry accompanied us to Tsushima and spent the whole night in sight of us flying in take-off and landing mode, obviously not changing the crew - back and forth. They did not spare kerosene, it makes us very different.
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 19 August 2020 07: 10 New
              +5
              Quote: pmkemcity
              They did not spare kerosene

              Peri has a large aviation tank
              1. timokhin-aa
                19 August 2020 07: 58 New
                +6
                64 tons. There are 15-16 gas stations for their helicopters.
          3. prodi
            prodi 19 August 2020 07: 15 New
            -1
            yes, there are also ambiguous sensations from landing in this video: a single-rotor layout of the helicopter is completely inappropriate in such conditions and the absence of a taut, at the level of the bottom of the helicopter hull, a safety net above the deck
            1. prodi
              prodi 19 August 2020 14: 27 New
              +1
              Quote: Fizik M
              The patrolmen themselves are certainly needed, but one of the key and objectively facing requirements for our PC is 2 helicopters. Etc.

              why as many as 2 helicopters for a patrolman (and a corvette)? Helicopter and (helicopter-type drone) - seem more than sufficient
              1. Fizik M
                Fizik M 19 August 2020 15: 00 New
                +1
                Quote: prodi
                why are there already 2 helicopters for a patrolman

                the enemy has changed
                today they are "there" may well be very well trained terrorists
                and for the "aviation component" you need at least 2 verts - one lands, the second covers
                1. prodi
                  prodi 19 August 2020 15: 46 New
                  +1
                  in my opinion, completely far-fetched: if we are talking about the inspection of the ship (and what else is there?), then the ship covers, and the helicopter lands
                  1. Fizik M
                    Fizik M 19 August 2020 15: 51 New
                    0
                    Quote: prodi
                    when it comes to inspection

                    no
                    for example about
                    1. prodi
                      prodi 19 August 2020 15: 55 New
                      0
                      correct if not: are we talking about the release of the hostages? Even if you do not go into the technical nuances - is it generally (in the regular order) necessary for FUCK?
                      1. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 August 2020 16: 41 New
                        0
                        Quote: prodi
                        correct if not: are we talking about the release of the hostages?

                        wider
                        I will try to get and post one very good MFA presentation on this issue
                      2. garri-lin
                        garri-lin 19 August 2020 20: 14 New
                        0
                        What about the size of the turntables? The transporter based on ka27 is redundant. And there is no alternative. 226 to spoil? 6 troops or a ton of weapons.
                      3. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 August 2020 21: 01 New
                        0
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        And the size of the turntables? Transport worker based on ka27

                        no more options
                      4. garri-lin
                        garri-lin 19 August 2020 21: 37 New
                        +1
                        Two ka 27 is at least a frigate. It is almost impossible to put on less. Just counted recently. Machine and fuel 30 tons of spare parts and so on can be rounded up to 50. 100 tons for a light ship is a lot.
                      5. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 August 2020 21: 47 New
                        -1
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        Two ka 27 is at least a frigate

                        can be easily placed on a patrolman based on body 20380
                      6. garri-lin
                        garri-lin 19 August 2020 22: 20 New
                        0
                        You mean one in the hangar and the other on the runway? Or one in the hangar and the other in a movable hangar between the main and the runway? Incidentally 20380 West as a frigate and classifies.
                      7. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 August 2020 22: 28 New
                        +1
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        You mean one in the hangar and the other on the runway? Or one in the hangar and the other in a movable hangar between the main and the runway?

                        options are different
                        starting from the hangar from side to side and ending with hangars along (with side exhaust instead of gas ducts into the pipe)
                      8. garri-lin
                        garri-lin 19 August 2020 22: 35 New
                        0
                        Thanks for the clarification. There is something to think about.
                      9. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 August 2020 22: 41 New
                        +2
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        Thanks for the clarification. There is something to think about.

                        everything starts with a competent and correct concept = "application model"
                        BUT
                        our "application model" is (24) CRI OSIS
                        "ship" is 1 CRI VK ("shipcrash")
                        "helicopter" is a branch of the 30th research institute ("fountain"), which is NOT subordinate to the fleet at all (VKS)

                        we get "swan, cancer and pike", and all sorts of swindlers have untied hands to catch fish in this troubled water
                  2. timokhin-aa
                    21 August 2020 08: 13 New
                    0
                    Not Maxim, but here's a photo collage based on 20385, it was in one of my articles as an illustration of the capabilities of the corpus 20385/20385.

                    You need to read the classics laughing



                    Don't forget that it is only 70 cm narrower than the Perry frigate. Moreover, if you equip it with "Redoubt" in the same place where it is at 20380, with "Uranus", in the same place as at 20380, and instead of the RTPU SM-588 of the "Package" complex, apply TA and install them on the deck below, at the same level with an ASP cellar (which in this version turns into a ship's arsenal and torpedoes are fed from it to the vehicles too), then you can concoct a corvette with two helicopters.

                    The designers only need to solve the issue of the placement of boats and somewhere to enter another 30-40 cubic meters of kerosene. Zent art. the complex there will stand on the roof of the hangar in the middle.
                  3. garri-lin
                    garri-lin 21 August 2020 09: 20 New
                    0
                    If we judge by the proportion there are 4 meters at the hangar gate. Enough? Will it be convenient to service? How long does it take to take out of the hangar and prepare for the flight?
                  4. timokhin-aa
                    21 August 2020 10: 57 New
                    +1
                    This is all without distorting the scales - the gates have the same dimensions as the standard 20385, the hangar is about the same, maybe a dozen centimeters wider, at best. Serve the same as on 20385
                  5. garri-lin
                    garri-lin 21 August 2020 19: 56 New
                    0
                    Size 27 with folded screws nearly 4 meters. With a deck width of 13 meters, everything about everything remains 5 meters. Well, in principle, you can at least think about it.
                  6. timokhin-aa
                    21 August 2020 19: 59 New
                    0
                    I repeat - the picture is to scale, the gate dimensions were not distorted, the flight control space was not distorted, the hull width was not distorted.
                  7. garri-lin
                    garri-lin 21 August 2020 20: 28 New
                    0
                    It was exactly on paper. I honestly don't know. Puzzled. The question of the necessity of such a decision is paramount. But if you look at it this way, it is possible from the purely technical side.
                  8. timokhin-aa
                    21 August 2020 21: 06 New
                    0
                    I don't insist on a two-helicopter corvette. This was done purely to demonstrate the potential of the case, and nothing more.
                  9. garri-lin
                    garri-lin 21 August 2020 21: 41 New
                    0
                    Well it is clear. Initially, uv. The PHYSICIAN defended this point of view.
            2. Fizik M
              Fizik M 29 August 2020 12: 20 New
              +2
              Quote: garri-lin
              Size 27 with folded screws nearly 4 meters. With a deck width of 13 meters, everything about everything remains 5 meters. Well, in principle, you can at least think about it.

              here the main point is that on "constant" both vertices are in the air, and on "maximum radius" are not needed
              for sailing flights, one is enough
              but in "anti-terror" operations, BOTH
              those. two verts is for "force majeure"
            3. garri-lin
              garri-lin 29 August 2020 23: 24 New
              0
              The actual question is how long the leader will have to wait in the air for the follower. While they roll out, they will spread it out and warm it up. Refueling in the hangar or on the runway? There are many features. A specialist is needed for consultation.
  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 19 August 2020 21: 46 New
    0
    Quote: garri-lin
    226 to spoil?


    The FSB conducted such work. He was supposed to be planted on Project 22460. I don't know the result.
  • garri-lin
    garri-lin 19 August 2020 22: 11 New
    +1
    Like there was infa that they produce piece by piece. But there is a problem. On ka 226 engines like not ours. If done for the fleet, then definitely on Russian engines.
  • timokhin-aa
    21 August 2020 08: 16 New
    0
    The transporter based on ka27 is redundant.


    Were you inside this "excess"? There really is no place.
  • garri-lin
    garri-lin 21 August 2020 09: 32 New
    0
    That's honestly what I don't know, I don't know. But a helicopter of 7 ton weight is a big helicopter.
  • timokhin-aa
    21 August 2020 11: 00 New
    0
    The main thing there is not to kiss your head on the gearbox sticking out from the ceiling, from which oil also drips on old helicopters. You can't stand up in height, sitting there in a bulletproof vest is just an epic. Seats only on one side, there is no place on the second row. Don't forget - the outer width of the fuselage of this helicopter is less than 1,5 meters! Normally, only the pilots are sitting there.
  • garri-lin
    garri-lin 21 August 2020 20: 02 New
    0
    If we take the Ka 32 as a transport modification of the Ka 27, then the cabin is larger and more spacious there. If I'm not mistaken up to 15 people in winter clothes.
  • timokhin-aa
    21 August 2020 20: 23 New
    0
    You just have to go there.
    Here is a video from the inside

    Here is a photo with tall, strong people in special equipment for the scale.

    But the military Ka-27PS is the only ship-based conditional transport vehicle that we have.

    from the tail the same helicopter


    After an hour and a half in a helmet, armor, with weapons, a backpack and a team, you will have to crawl out with a groan.
  • garri-lin
    garri-lin 21 August 2020 20: 33 New
    0
    Well, not a limousine of course. Like in the BMP.
  • timokhin-aa
    21 August 2020 20: 35 New
    0
    NOT, the BMP is worse. And the APC is worse.
    But in the Mi-8 it is incomparably better.
  • garri-lin
    garri-lin 21 August 2020 20: 47 New
    0
    Having a school of co-axes rolling back to a single-rotor on ships? There is a great concept for the Ka 26. Flying landing gear. Cabin, engine, plumage. The rest is optional. The heir to Ka25 / 27 should be done according to this scheme. And it had to be done for a long time. Well, about the frigates. As I wrote. The Ka 27 isn't exactly the right car. Large and uncomfortable. The same 226 looks better. One question only. How to behave in a storm 4-5 points.
  • timokhin-aa
    21 August 2020 21: 04 New
    0
    One question only. How to behave in a storm 4-5 points.


    That's it. Really coaxial is not a bad solution, but you have to wait for "MINOGO". How much they will do is a question of questions. And before that, squirm with the Ka-27PS
  • garri-lin
    garri-lin 21 August 2020 21: 16 New
    0
    It is still a long time before Lamprey. Even more before mass. I'm afraid to prophesy, but in the next 5 years it is unlikely. Sadness.
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 24 August 2020 13: 26 New
    +2
    Quote: garri-lin
    To the mass one even more I'm afraid to prophesy, but in the next 5 years it is unlikely. Sadness.

    at least 10 years
  • garri-lin
    garri-lin 24 August 2020 13: 44 New
    0
    Even sadder.
  • prodi
    prodi 22 August 2020 13: 38 New
    0
    To be honest, I can't imagine how much a transport version of a helicopter is needed for a long landing flight at a corvette-frigate-destroyer, but if it is needed, then it is best to remember the longitudinal "carriage" scheme: there is nothing particularly superfluous in size, and the speed is not important
  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 19 August 2020 08: 46 New
    -3
    Our patrolman. This is an "expeditionary frigate" - a kind of modern colonial gunboat of 7-8 thousand tons ... And it is really needed. But not earlier than the moment when we at least solve the critical problems with OVR.
    1. g1washntwn
      g1washntwn 19 August 2020 11: 35 New
      -1
      Kirill, the problems are like "gradual renovation in the apartment" - while you are gluing wallpaper in one room, the tiles in the kitchen are already falling off. For a pun, I "do not justify unjustified expenses", but you need to take into account the conditions, they are not beach-front, but the most stressful and crisis from all sides. And so yes, and frigates are needed, preferably with the combat effectiveness of missile battleships, and aircraft carriers with helicopter carriers ... and a battle star of death in orbit for the greater importance of the current moment)))
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 19 August 2020 12: 11 New
        +7
        It was possible to solve anti-piracy problems and ensure a constant watch at the Horn of Africa in 7-9 months, in the shortest possible time, that is, by purchasing 4-5 serviceable large trawlers that would receive communications and weapons from a pair of PU Uranus, AK-630 + TV sight , 2-3 ZU-23, Pairs of ATGM + PU Torah (army).
        On the slip and cutting deck, it was possible to take a pair of DSLs and mount a helicopter pad. All. Well, raise the naval flag and paint it gray.

        Example? I have them.
        Cubans



        And these are our IPCs based on SRTM. The fruit of studying the issues of mobilization of the fishing fleet.

  • Nemchinov Vl
    Nemchinov Vl 23 August 2020 14: 53 New
    -1
    Quote: Fizik M
    I set the "bar of requirements" to "friends" much higher than "in general", I demand tests that are as close to real combat conditions as possible (or I conduct myself), etc.
    - fan fan tulip ?!
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 24 August 2020 13: 25 New
      +1
      Quote: Nemchinov Vl
      - fan fan tulip ?!

      Little Johnny, if your long and fraudulent tongue prevents you from walking, contact the doctors - shorten it
  • Nemchinov Vl
    Nemchinov Vl 23 August 2020 14: 52 New
    -1
    Quote: pmkemcity
    Author the office is firing, does not allow the boys to chop the grandmother.
    ?! or is "a representative of a group of other boys"who also do not mind chopping money but strictly "his team" ?! .... sometimes this impression is made ...
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 24 August 2020 13: 24 New
      +1
      Quote: Nemchinov Vl
      ?! or is he a "representative of a group of other boys" who also do not mind chopping money but strictly "with their own team" ?! .... sometimes this impression is made ...

      VOVOCHKA! in decent places, it is customary to reinforce such ardor with FACTS.
      Otherwise, RAPID SPECIALISTS "are lowered down the stairs with cradles"
      Are you ready to "back up the facts" with your nonsense?
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 19 August 2020 06: 41 New
    +4
    and to the question of the "reaction" of the corporation
    1. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity 19 August 2020 06: 53 New
      +3
      Quote: Fizik M
      and to the question of the "reaction" of the corporation

      Yes! The people are shrinking ... Where are the bandits from the 90s, in nature?
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 19 August 2020 06: 56 New
        +3
        Quote: pmkemcity
        Where are the gangsters from the 90s, in nature?

        were
        in the sense of "do good deeds" (revenge for a good person also applies to them angry ), and it may "suddenly turn out" that doing this, very, very what you can accidentally do a good deed to yourself bully
        especially when you were "already followed"
        soldier
    2. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 19 August 2020 08: 48 New
      +9
      The authorities should not just be engaged in the identification of acts of sabotage and treason in our ee "naval department"
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 19 August 2020 06: 45 New
    +5
    When using a PU container, the secrecy of preparing for the exit of such a ship a priori goes like a forest, because the container must be placed on top of the entire bundle of firewood, and this is already unmasked in the port, because the presence of comrades in civilian clothes persuading dockers to put it in this way already attracts attention. what is there under our flag going?
    1. g1washntwn
      g1washntwn 19 August 2020 11: 25 New
      0
      Quote: evgen1221
      secrecy ... walks through the forest

      They were brought to Cuba at one time. And to put "your" container in the required loading queue, I assure you, you don't need a lot of money. The queue can be bought almost legally.
      1. evgen1221
        evgen1221 19 August 2020 15: 40 New
        +1
        Those were different times and people, too, did not chase amerskie candy wrappers, in short, your example is incorrect.
    2. Maxim Ermakov
      Maxim Ermakov 19 August 2020 19: 26 New
      +1
      Wrong. Specially asked the logisticians. Now the place of container installation is provided by an automated system. So that later this container could be easily found and so that it does not interfere with the overloading of others. No dockers. Just an indication from a soulless machine where to put.
      1. evgen1221
        evgen1221 20 August 2020 14: 42 New
        0
        It could even be.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 August 2020 07: 59 New
    16
    Рњ-РґСЏ ...
    I knew that everything was bad with 22160, but that everything was SO bad there ... That is, to a ship that was conceived as ocean patrolman, do you put a rolling damper? It's just some kind of fairy tale. And the one who did and accepted all this is a fabulous ... character.
    And as for the caliber containers - I had some hope that the announced plans to equip 22160 with these containers - a fiction, made as a basis for the production of these very containers that would be used only from land - such an elegant bypass of the then INF Treaty. Alas.
    1. timokhin-aa
      19 August 2020 10: 50 New
      +3
      That is, the ship, which was conceived as an ocean patrolman, is not equipped with a roll stabilizer? It's just some kind of fairy tale


      And it was known from the very beginning
    2. We are for our
      We are for our 19 August 2020 16: 02 New
      -6
      That is, the ship, which was conceived as an ocean patrolman, is not equipped with a roll stabilizer?
      Is this a pleasure yacht for you or a combat ship in which combat characteristics are higher than comfort? Fishermen and oil industry workers are afraid to go out to sea without pacifiers even in the most severe storms. Lived ...
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 19 August 2020 17: 43 New
        +3
        Quote: We are for our
        Fishermen and oil industry workers are afraid to go out to sea without pacifiers even in the most severe storms. Lived ...

        fool
        DON'T SHOOT SHOULD HER HURT
        1. The oil industry workers have a very tough question (unlike all the military except for the PMO) the exact DP.
        2. Fishermen "call intiander" in buckets does not interfere with fishing.
        3. And the military has VERY STRICT seaworthy restrictions on SOLVING TASKS (including the use of weapons)
      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 20 August 2020 07: 43 New
        +2
        Quote: We are for our
        Is this a pleasure yacht for you or a combat ship in which combat characteristics are higher than comfort?

        fool Do you even know what you are writing? What does comfort have to do with it? Ensuring helicopter takeoff and landing operations - one, ensuring the operation of boats - two, the stability of the ship as an artillery platform - three.
  • timokhin-aa
    19 August 2020 08: 11 New
    +7
    I consider it necessary to indicate my special, valuable opinion.

    In the aft compartment 22160 containers are installed in locks, which, in turn, stand on bases welded to the floor. As a result, there is an air gap of about twenty to thirty centimeters between the deck and the floor of the container.

    All the loads during the launch of the rocket are thus taken on by the floor of the container, which rests on the "civil" container locks at four corners and two points in the middle.

    The container is located inside the ship, where cable tracks are thrown right along the deck, respectively, the launch of a rocket from the TPK by self-exit is excluded - the flame must be released somewhere.
    Therefore, we will have a "mortar" start with the ejection of all gases following the rocket vertically to the top.
    And this gives rise to a strong recoil downward, which there is nothing to hold, the foundation slabs like the Americans under ABL, this miracle does not exist, there is air.

    The result is that when launched, it will break through the floor of the container, taking into account the energy that the launching elements will acquire at the launch of the rocket, the container, locks and the unreinforced (this is obvious) deck under them will rattle and the remaining TPK with missiles will fall under their own weight into this destroyed compartment.

    Accordingly - my forecast - there will be no launches or there will be a fake message - a message without a video, or an accident with grave consequences.
    One of three.
    1. g1washntwn
      g1washntwn 19 August 2020 09: 23 New
      +4
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      Bottom line - when launched, it will break the floor

      Do you have at least a photo of the structure of the container floor where the TPK is placed in the support? Or do you think that the container version is actually assembled from civilians in garages in the neighborhood by Petya, a welder by eye?
      1. timokhin-aa
        19 August 2020 10: 48 New
        +1
        Even if there is an armor plate - the container stands on six overturned scraps of the channel, the floor hangs in the air. This is enough for an accident, with a margin.
        1. Thrifty
          Thrifty 19 August 2020 12: 43 New
          -2
          Timokhin hi hi -first, you need to change the design of the container itself, make the sides not of steel, but of reinforced plastic, as well as insert an I-beam into the bottom of the container, 8 fragments running across the container, evenly spaced along its entire length, as part of the structure. The double-tee will give less load on the deck, and changing the mass of the walls of the container on plastics will further reduce its mass, and as a result, it will be possible to shoot without unnecessary loads and deformation of the ship's deck flooring.
        2. We are for our
          We are for our 19 August 2020 15: 55 New
          0
          The floor should hang in the air, my Timokhin, have you seen a standard ISO container at least once in person? They are designed in such a way that the entire weight load falls on the frame, and under this frame, as you yourself wrote, there are stops with a lock.
          The statement that there are no frames and any stiffening beams under the deck flooring has absolutely no evidence, and therefore there is no dispute itself.
          As far as I know, the "caliber" weighs about 2 tons, therefore, with a vertical launch at an altitude of 50 meters, an impulse of "as much" as 10 tons is transmitted to the ship with the help of the launch accelerator, which by sea standards is simply ridiculous loads that do not require any over-countermeasures.
          1. timokhin-aa
            21 August 2020 11: 04 New
            0
            lies on the frame, and under this frame, as you yourself wrote, there are stops with a lock.


            In the amount of six units, which can withstand the entire load at the start.

            with a vertical launch at a height of 50 meters with the help of the launch accelerator, an impulse of "as much" 10 tons is transmitted to the ship


            For this in school they don't even give a deuce, they put a "count" in the magazine. laughing
            1. We are for our
              We are for our 21 August 2020 11: 41 New
              0
              In the amount of six units, which can withstand the entire load at the start.
              I see no problems if the supports are located on the load-bearing structure.
              For this at school they don't even give a deuce, they put a "count" in the magazine
              Do you have other data, or are you just trolling for lack of arguments?
              1. timokhin-aa
                21 August 2020 12: 42 New
                0
                I see no problems if the supports are located on the load-bearing structure.


                And the strength of the supports itself does not count?

                Do you have other data, or are you just trolling for lack of arguments?


                Momentum is not measured in tons, you are confused. This is for example.
    2. Shooter22
      Shooter22 19 August 2020 09: 59 New
      +8


      Good afternoon, Alexander! Thank you for the article. Very interesting. One question: Do you really think that those who designed and created the "CLUB-K" did not calculate the loads on the container floor during the mortar launch of the rocket and that the complex is actually housed in a standard container taken from the assembly line, without modifications? Of course, I am far from your level of proficiency in this material, but logic dictates that at least this statement is doubtful and generally not correct.
      1. timokhin-aa
        19 August 2020 10: 49 New
        0
        Check out the comment above. And the author is not me, the article by Maxim Klimov, I just posted it.
        1. g1washntwn
          g1washntwn 19 August 2020 10: 59 New
          +2
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          article by Maxim Klimov

          That's what I heard familiar notes. Channel - not a channel, but bogshoes really don't let your leg fall wink Let us end with the fact that neither my nor the author's assumptions hold an axiom. Details in the calculations and documentation, the path to which will be indicated by inconspicuous people in civilian clothes. You just need to be quick in your search lol
          1. timokhin-aa
            19 August 2020 11: 07 New
            0
            Channel - not a channel, but bogshoes really don't let your leg fall


            By this analogy, the container stands in a swamp on six nails standing vertically. And yes, the deck under the "nails" cannot spread out and come together like water.
            1. g1washntwn
              g1washntwn 19 August 2020 12: 21 New
              +4
              If you focus only on the load into the locks of "civilian" containers, then I can ask you again about the attachments of the same 3S14, about the fact that modern PAD for a mortar launch is not just a charge of artillery powder, about the fact that it "looks like a civilian" the same as inside, etc. etc. ... but I won't. Since the infa flashed about the probable throwing tests, the calculations, as I already wrote, are where the calculations are needed, and so far only fantasies about the broken bottom of the corvettes. Let everything stay where it was: Calculations - to engineers! Fantasies - to the head! Bourgeois - on the snake!
              1. Fizik M
                Fizik M 21 August 2020 17: 15 New
                +1
                Quote: g1washntwn
                about the fact that modern PAD is for

                in terms of PAD characteristics we are significantly inferior
                especially considering the possibilities of mass production
                Quote: g1washntwn
                Since about the probable throw tests infa flashed

                and here are the "throwing"?!?!
                rockets flew! (from helicopter 1155)
    3. garri-lin
      garri-lin 19 August 2020 11: 24 New
      +7
      This container can fire bluntly from the ground. From the railway platform. From a car trailer. This was mentioned at the very beginning of conversations about them. The strength of the container is uniquely calculated.
      1. timokhin-aa
        19 August 2020 11: 29 New
        +1
        From six small scraps of the channel, he will be forced to shoot on this ship, having only air under the floor.
        1. garri-lin
          garri-lin 19 August 2020 11: 39 New
          +5
          And it depends on what kind of channel trims it is, how they were fastened and what they were counting on. I’m generally good, but this particular argument will be hooked on the ears. Provide a foundation on the ship with seats for a container - this is the level of a university student. Calculating the strength of a container is also not difficult. Moreover, I am sure that some boosters / shock absorbers are provided in the mountings. It's too logical to do otherwise.
          1. Shooter22
            Shooter22 19 August 2020 12: 11 New
            0
            Totally agree with you. drinks
          2. timokhin-aa
            19 August 2020 12: 12 New
            +1
            Well, generally speaking, I saw what I write about.
            Maybe it will be time to find a photo from the board 22160 from the modular compartment. Everything is obvious there.
            1. garri-lin
              garri-lin 19 August 2020 12: 15 New
              +2
              But it will be just fine. Unless of course it's secret. Do you have a photo of the seats on the deck? Or with the structure of a deck power set?
          3. Fizik M
            Fizik M 19 August 2020 15: 29 New
            -1
            Quote: garri-lin
            I’m generally good, but this particular argument will be hooked on the ears. Provide a foundation on the ship with seats for a container - this is the level of a university student.

            AGAIN
            "classic foundation" will be stupidly MUCH EASIER
            than the foundation for the container and the container itself

            and since there is no "superfluous" on the ship, for the sake of the Innovative rocket container (with a foundation), ROCKETS WILL BE DISPOSED
            PM
            1. garri-lin
              garri-lin 19 August 2020 15: 34 New
              0
              I meant purely an argument about the weakness of the design. And the fact that such modularity is unnecessary, I completely agree.
    4. Fizik M
      Fizik M 19 August 2020 13: 39 New
      0
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      Result - at start-up, it will break the floor of the container, with

      will not break
      if you don't shoot while rolling laughing
  • Old Orc
    Old Orc 19 August 2020 10: 25 New
    0
    Got a question. Can we assume that with an increase in the displacement of the base carrier, the efficiency of using the modular system increases? Since at the moment, they are trying to use it on "cheap" consumable media.
    1. g1washntwn
      g1washntwn 19 August 2020 12: 43 New
      0
      The effectiveness of any system is determined by the ability of this system to solve the assigned tasks. What tasks do you set for "basic cheap media"? IMHO: Assault in one person AUG - no. Floating arsenal, KUG support - under certain conditions, perhaps. Free hunting, blocking of naval transport traffic (privateering), shock stealth missions are unlikely, because too many external factors for a definite answer.
      1. timokhin-aa
        21 August 2020 20: 28 New
        0
        For this trough, the answer is a flag demonstration. It can't do anything else.
  • Alexander X
    Alexander X 19 August 2020 12: 02 New
    -3
    The article arouses mistrust for the very reason that missile launches were made from the KUB several times. In the event of warpage of the bottom of the container at startup, the designers have made changes to their product. AND
    to draw conclusions about the insufficient durability of the deck on the basis of only a simplified layout drawing - the height of imprudence ... IMHO ...
    1. timokhin-aa
      19 August 2020 12: 14 New
      +2
      Have you seen how the container in 22160 is attached?
    2. Fizik M
      Fizik M 19 August 2020 13: 38 New
      +1
      Quote: Alexander X
      In the event of warpage of the bottom of the container at startup, the designers have made changes to their product.

      wassat
      lol
      pyashi ISTCHO laughing
      I promise not to laugh loudly and not kick too much
      laughing
  • iouris
    iouris 19 August 2020 12: 04 New
    0
    What to do? To envy! Some successful ships are being built. You can try to build a trailed module to accommodate additional weapons. Well, that doesn't fit on a tug. To develop this idea: you can even try to build multilink systems.
  • Alexds
    Alexds 19 August 2020 13: 11 New
    -5
    A very prolific writer. And his broad outlook on the consideration of problems (the Navy, the Air Force, vehicles of the Armed Forces, the Armed Forces of the world, combat lasers, ...) strategy and tactics suggests that the author is a former head of the General Staff, but not a colonel. But judging by my impressions of his publications, often superficial, he is rather a translator of other people's impressions, which are not always objective and professional.
    In his publications, sometimes something slips that should not have been written in the open press.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 19 August 2020 13: 36 New
      +1
      Quote: AlexDS
      A very prolific writer.

      a long tongue for AlexDS participant Very much interferes with walking, just stumbles AlexDS in it
      Quote: AlexDS
      the author is a former head of the general staff, but not a colonel

      YOU, if you please, do not drag these "streams" to the forum, but to the JAR, to the doctor for tests
      Quote: AlexDS
      my impressions of his publications

      Monsieur, YOU are too impressionable, and YOUR torn template wassat torments and suffers lol
      Quote: AlexDS
      he rather

      rather YOU from the "sixth" write lol
      Quote: AlexDS
      In his publications, sometimes something slips that should not have been written in the open press.

  • maykl8
    maykl8 19 August 2020 13: 24 New
    0
    Mobile-modular missile system "CLUB-K"
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 19 August 2020 13: 41 New
    +3
    Quote: Thrifty
    first, you need to change the design of the container itself

    "tonsils" can be cut in different ways
    but still, "as usual" is nevertheless more convenient than through an opa laughing

    I'm talking about the fact that instead of this rocket-container crap, you could simply put reinforced frames + foundations to accommodate normal inclined launchers
  • Alka Ponne
    Alka Ponne 19 August 2020 14: 07 New
    -4
    as always - one sofa expert is smarter than a bunch of research institutes, design bureaus, specialists in this field (and not specialists in writing articles)))
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 19 August 2020 14: 33 New
      +4
      Quote: Alka Ponne
      as always - one sofa expert is smarter than a bunch of research institutes, design bureaus, specialists in this field (and not specialists in writing articles)))

      madam, if YOU were even a little smarter, you would even see from the officialdom that the specialists were just for the OVR corvettes, and not this patrol crap (a scam with which several persons turned)
    2. edsw
      edsw 19 August 2020 14: 35 New
      -2
      You shouldn't have written it) now the local fighting hamsters will pass you by. Here in the fleet section there are two opinions, Physics / Klimova and wrong.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 19 August 2020 14: 48 New
        0
        Quote: edsw
        now local fighting hamsters will pass you by. Here in the fleet section there are two opinions, Physics / Klimova and wrong.

        monsieur "fighting hamster" lol Are you on the FACTS given something specifically to object to Schmoget?
        or YOU just let "bubbles from a puddle"?
        1. edsw
          edsw 19 August 2020 17: 29 New
          -6
          And here are the facts. I mean that local hamsters like you only put a minus point and do not accept another point of view different from yours.
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 19 August 2020 17: 39 New
            +1
            Quote: edsw
            I mean that local hamsters like you only put a minus point and do not accept another point of view different from yours.

            listen, hamster!
            for me POINT OF VIEW is what JUSTIFIED
            for you, apparently "bubbles from a puddle"
            1. edsw
              edsw 19 August 2020 18: 00 New
              -2
              It doesn't sound like you need a justification. You, as soon as they say something different from yours, immediately break into a pig squeal
              1. Fizik M
                Fizik M 19 August 2020 18: 02 New
                +1
                Quote: edsw
                immediately break into a pig squeal

                I IMMEDIATELY take PIGS and PUMP IN THEIR BUBBLES
                because they (YOU) and scream

                Quote: edsw
                Doesn't seem like you need justification

                YOU DO NOT HAVE it
                only bubbles and screeching
                1. edsw
                  edsw 19 August 2020 18: 06 New
                  -4
                  I have? Screeching?)) Yes, I'm calm like a boa constrictor, you are the one who squeals in every topic
                  1. Fizik M
                    Fizik M 19 August 2020 18: 11 New
                    +1
                    Quote: edsw
                    I have? Screeching?)) Yes, I'm calm like a boa constrictor

                    YOU'RE FLYING
                    and diarrhea for as many as tens of posts
                    VALIERIANOCHKI ACCEPT lol
                    1. edsw
                      edsw 19 August 2020 18: 13 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Fizik M

                      YOU'RE FLYING
                      and diarrhea for as many as tens of posts
                      VALIERIANOCHKI ACCEPT

                      Kapets you drive)) if I had a blaze, I would have been banned for mats
                      1. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 August 2020 19: 09 New
                        0
                        Quote: edsw
                        if I was on fire

                      2. edsw
                        edsw 19 August 2020 20: 41 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        Quote: edsw
                        if I was on fire


                        And what does this have to do with what I wrote above? Put out a fart already, on the horizon the glow does not let you sleep.
                      3. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 19 August 2020 21: 00 New
                        +1
                        Quote: edsw
                        And what does this have to do with what I wrote above?

                        YOU to Aibolit
                      4. edsw
                        edsw 19 August 2020 21: 04 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        Quote: edsw
                        And what does this have to do with what I wrote above?

                        YOU to Aibolit

                        Apparently there is nothing more to say?
      2. edsw
        edsw 19 August 2020 18: 04 New
        0
        Well, let's say it seems to me that the idea of ​​equipping these ships with a module of either a caliber or a bugas is correct ... and it doesn't matter that they were designed only for 22160/20386. Why? Ships have ALREADY been built, quite often, with their fantasies about "this should have been this way, not this way .." proceed from this fact and think what can be done to give these ships some meaning.
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 19 August 2020 18: 13 New
          +1
          Quote: edsw
          It seems to me that the idea of ​​equipping these ships with a module of either a caliber or a bugas is correct ... and it doesn't matter that they are designed only for 22160/20386.

          fool
          YOU ARE ALL "KU-KU"?!?!?
          It was CLEARLY written about this in the text!
          WILL YOU put a 40-foot container on the Flying, Pylyky Black Sea Fleet?
          And for the "crowd" of the PSKR project 22460?
          HORSERADISH!!!
          Despite the fact that the correct modular BUGAS gets there easily!
    3. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 19 August 2020 18: 59 New
      0
      Quote: edsw
      local hamsters like you just put a lot of minus and do not accept another point of view different from yours.


      - your point is not correct, either due to illiteracy, or due to malicious intent.
      - you are a hamster.
      1. edsw
        edsw 19 August 2020 20: 39 New
        -1
        Quote: Hamsters (originally lemmings, in honor of the rodents of the same name, who, according to legend, tend to move in a crowd and fall off cliffs in unison) are a trusting and easily manipulated part of the population, which, according to British scientists, is dominant, while every hamster is convinced that he is smarter than the rest. They take part in all flash mobs and "PR", sign online petitions, jump in the comments of all top posts, unanimously express their opinion on various events, ostentatiously tear and throw, and just as non-showy go to shit. Have the most disgusting predictability

        And in what way is it not true? In what I'm talking about modules for 22160 and this give these useless ships some sense?)) What I wrote above just more about you, jump here, how did someone allow anyone to doubt the "expertness" of the physicist? well, well, jump on.
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 19 August 2020 20: 44 New
          0
          Quote: edsw
          well, well, jump on.


          clown from the ditch .... You are just jumping like a crazy lemming.
          1. edsw
            edsw 19 August 2020 20: 57 New
            +1
            Quote: Cyril G ...
            clown from the ditch .... You are just jumping like a crazy lemming.

            I AM? Riding? My question is why did you even come out to defend this weird physicist? You just understand, if you read these people (physicist / Klimov), then you might think. that everything in the navy is bad and only fools are sitting. In the official channel they say "everything is ... in the navy", then a day later the article "all n ... ts, consider the fleet," as the ancient truth says, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 19 August 2020 21: 08 New
              +1
              Quote: edsw
              In the official channel they say "everything is ... in the navy", then a day later the article "all n ... ts, consider the fleet," as the ancient truth says, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

              fool
              CASE CLINICAL lol
              1. edsw
                edsw 19 August 2020 21: 09 New
                -2
                Quote: Fizik M
                CASE CLINICAL

                In essence, there is nothing to answer, so apparently it's you about yourself.
            2. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 19 August 2020 21: 43 New
              +2
              Quote: edsw
              why did you even get out to defend this weird physicist

              Hear clown, since when are we on you?

              then you might think. that everything in the navy is bad and only fools are sitting.

              It cannot be thought, but it is. And yes, I know exactly how it sucks and why it is.
              1. edsw
                edsw 19 August 2020 23: 07 New
                -1
                Quote: Cyril G ...
                Hear clown, since when are we on you?

                Well, okay goose, come on "you"
  • edsw
    edsw 19 August 2020 14: 32 New
    -1
    The ships were built and now they are thinking what to do with them. Modules are probably the only way to give these ships at least some efficiency. If they still test the module with the bugas, then everything will not be so bad)
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 19 August 2020 14: 50 New
      +1
      Quote: edsw
      ... If they still test the module with the bugas, then everything will not be so bad)

      BUGAS on "mind and classics normally" takes the place of the BOLKOVO DSHL ie without taking up space on the cargo deck.
      How do YOU ​​prefer - what would YOU remove the tonsils through Opu? or "as usual"?
      1. edsw
        edsw 19 August 2020 17: 27 New
        -2
        Let them put anywhere, the presence of bugas will give meaning to these ships
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 19 August 2020 17: 38 New
          +3
          Quote: edsw
          Let them put anywhere, the presence of bugas will give meaning to these ships

          fool
          we need a "massive minotaurization of the near zone", i.e. "modular" BUGAS EXTREMELY NEEDED by the Navy - for MASS equipment of ships and vessels
          but INSTEAD of this, for the sake of SCAM 22160 it does so that it could be put ONLY on 22160
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 19 August 2020 15: 14 New
    +1
    Quote: AlexDS
    His publications sometimes slip something that should not have been written in the open press.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2314689.html?thread=243527105#t243527105
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 19 August 2020 15: 35 New
    +1
    Quote: pmkemcity
    The people are shrinking ... Where are the bandits from the 90s, in nature?

    clearly, with the participation of one of the forum participants laughing
  • The comment was deleted.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Maxim Ermakov
    Maxim Ermakov 19 August 2020 18: 58 New
    -1
    Oh. Couldn't find expert biography. For some reason, in the publications that print this "'Expert" they are limited to phrases - "Former Navy officer." But I got acquainted with his work. The first thing that raises the question is where does such awareness and categorical statements come from, from a person who draws information from open sources. I immediately remembered Kholopov. To Tom, too, the Darkest personally brought stamped folders on Armata. Essentially the article:
    "Actually, there is nothing original in placing the launcher (PU) in a standard container, and, by and large, reasonable." - I still do not understand why the possibility of quickly placing eight anti-ship missiles on a ship is bad? The possibility of a quick transfer of the complex to the shore and, as a consequence, the creation of a mobile coastal defense? The ability to place a CD or a blasted Dagger, Zircon instead of an anti-ship missile. Without docking and rebuilding the ship? Just carry loads if you feel like it. The speech about camouflage and international transportation blew my mind. For example, I have no idea How to find the right container with missiles in a port containing several thousand containers. How to track such a container while moving along the railway. Plus, the author completely ignores the possibility of mobilizing civilian ships for the needs of the Navy. The same Atomic Icebreaker Lenin had barbets for AU and all the equipment required. There is a famous photo where he is being tested in full body kit, so to speak. But this was in the USSR, where by a volitional decision, any bookmarks and reserve lines were introduced into the design of the ship. This is not the case on modern civilian courts. So the modular club or the recently demonstrated modular carapace. The only means to equip a civilian vessel with modern means of defense and attack.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 19 August 2020 19: 23 New
      -2
      Quote: Maxim Ermakov
      Oh. Could not find

      I sympathize
      is
      it is necessary to peel less in "Smeshariki" lol
      Quote: Maxim Ermakov
      Essentially the article:
      "Actually, there is nothing original in placing the launcher (PU) in a standard container, and, by and large, reasonable." - I still do not understand why the possibility of quickly placing eight anti-ship missiles on a ship is bad?

      fool
      in the article it is CLEAR and written in RUSSIAN
      do you speaker rushen?
      Quote: Maxim Ermakov
      Opportunity to place a CD or a sealed Dagger, Zircon instead of anti-ship missiles

      belay
      it's YOU wassat pokes lol
      Quote: Maxim Ermakov
      Plus, the author completely ignores the possibility of mobilizing civilian ships for the needs of the Navy.

      for those who are on the ARMORED TRAIN
      NORMAL FOUNDATIONS AND INCLINED PU WELDING IS TAKEN AND:
      1. Possible BC of missiles, at least DOUBLE
      2. The issue of launch restrictions, which is a problem for "missile containers"
      Quote: Maxim Ermakov
      The only means to equip a civilian vessel with modern means of defense and attack.

      Yes of course
      in GV and VMV on "steamers" "40f containers were installed" lol
      1. Maxim Ermakov
        Maxim Ermakov 19 August 2020 20: 22 New
        0
        Without rudeness in any way? Judging by the number of emoticons .. Smeshariki is more about you.
        I can read very well.
        Inclined gun carriages for PU limit the ability to quickly change weapons and not only. We have already passed this Moscow and Ustinov is an example of this. The age of highly specialized ships is over.
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 19 August 2020 20: 59 New
          -1
          Quote: Maxim Ermakov
          Without rudeness in any way?

          ooo, YOU talked about "rudeness"? And with what and with what expressions YOU personally came here - "maiden memory" (for YOU)?
          Quote: Maxim Ermakov
          Inclined PU carriages limit the possibility of quick replacement

          DO NOT SHOOT SHOOT, IT HURTS
          and the most massive example is "this is a Harpoon in the cigarette case of every commander of the NATO ship"
        2. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 19 August 2020 21: 53 New
          0
          Quote: Maxim Ermakov
          Inclined gun carriages for PU limit the ability to quickly replace weapons and not only.


          You don't know. Recently, even a video was shown how the Uranium anti-ship missile launcher was changed at sea.
        3. Fizik M
          Fizik M 22 August 2020 03: 49 New
          +1
          Quote: Maxim Ermakov
          Inclined carriages

          LAFET at the gun
          Quote: Maxim Ermakov
          Inclined ... PUs limit the ability to quickly replace weapons and more.

          from what hangover?
          Quote: Maxim Ermakov
          We have already passed this Moscow and Ustinov is an example of this. The age of highly specialized ships is over.

          fool
          and here "highly specialized"?!?!?
          "Caliber" starts normally and from inclined launchers, and at one time, within the framework of this topic, questions of its use with the same KT-100 BOD were worked out
  • Operator
    Operator 19 August 2020 20: 27 New
    -3
    The competence of both gendar and physicists and chemists in shipbuilding and powder pressure accumulators is on the same level laughing

    The best hull shape for a patrol ship is known - a project by Vigor Industrial using the patented X-BOW hull bow
    https://topwar.ru/19242-korabli-beregovoy-ohrany-novoy-arhitektury.html

    X-BOW provides the ship with the passage of waves without climbing on their crest, which allows the use of a deck helicopter and inspection boats in high seas. At the moment, over a hundred of such ships and vessels have been built around the world. In particular, the Kerch shipyard "Zaliv" has built seven vessels for Norway and one for Russia - "Vyacheslav Tikhonov" (seismic geo-prospecting vessel 84x17 meters).

    The X-BOW also has an increased internal volume, which allows free placement of not only a helicopter hangar, closed landing sites with lifting devices for inspection boats and towed vehicles, but also missile / rocket torpedo launchers of the USKS type.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 19 August 2020 20: 56 New
      -3
      Quote: Operator
      The competence of both gendar and physicists and chemists in shipbuilding and powder pressure accumulators is on the same level

      Andryusha (from the parish school), are you not enough WHICKEN? STICK? - how did they dip you into your "bubbles"?
      Quote: Operator
      The best hull shape for a patrol ship is known -

      by WHAT CRITERION?
      the fact that during the mass construction of the X-BOW scraper, "for some reason" does not apply to OPV, does not suggest any thoughts?
      however, in YOUR cerebellum they cannot be lol
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 19 August 2020 21: 43 New
    0
    and about the "mine action module":
    Container complexes PMO.
    As noted above, the first container complex of the Navy's PMO was the container modification "Mayevka", which successfully passed tests in 2007-2008, and was sent after that by the fleet "out of sight" - for storage "to Moscow."
    The impetus for their subsequent "development" (it is not clear in which direction only) was given by the creative efforts of "specialists" (in quotes) from the "ESA" company, whose BEC "Inspector" grew from the initial 7 meters, first to 8,5, and then to 9,5 , 12700 meters, after which he categorically refused to "intermeddle" on the BTShch pr.XNUMX, and it became necessary to "attach" somewhere.
    The "creative proposals" that took place in this area are rather not in the part of the technique and tactics of the PMO, but in the "near-medical field". I would very much like to "hear" the persons promoting this "anti-mine marasmus", but since the basis for their actions was not the requirements of the combat capability of the Navy (including in terms of the real ability to solve PMO tasks), but the "interest" on the part of "some very interested organizations", but obviously there will be no answers.


    https://vpk.name/news/170149_vopros_neboesposobnosti_vmf_rossii_protiv_sovremennoi_minnoi_ugrozy_obyazan_byt_razreshen_v_kratchaishie_sroki.html
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  • Motorist
    Motorist 19 August 2020 23: 24 New
    0
    its justifications were given, to put it mildly, far from adequate, they say, container ships will be at least all over the world, secretly having missile

    those who talked about it had no idea what international container transportation was

    Thin deck flooring (usually without reinforced frames)?

    Dry cargo ships have containers for slings, lashing, etc. All the time in one position. What prevents to strengthen the bottom deck and put camouflaged PUs? For cabotage - the very thing (in a foreign country, customs can stock up, it is dangerous).
  • Vyacheslav
    Vyacheslav 20 August 2020 02: 37 New
    -3
    Author, stop indulging in sophistry (if you don't know this word, wikipedia will help you). Of course, the statement about installing containers on civilian ships is complete nonsense. But why in a serious article discuss this chatter in the media? We need to talk about combat ships and distinguish specially modular ships from any others. For modules, we have declared only 20386, 22160. But the author does not say a word about the use of MODULES on these ships. The article contains only an old record about how bad these ships are. But what is the problem of using modules on them ???? 20386 The main focus of criticism is weak weapons. Including the fact that there is no BUGAS ... We made a container BUGAS - we are still not happy. We say, shit, it cannot be used on other ships (which is not a fact!), But what have other ships got to do with it? Is it possible at 20386? Can! It follows from the scheme of the ship that the container BUGAS can be installed along with the basing of the helicopter (the helicopter cannot be installed when the container with missiles is installed). That is, we get a DMZ ship with GAS, BuGAS, anti-submarine helicopter and Packet-NK, while it also has 8 Uraniums, PU Redut for 16 cells, a 100-mm artillery unit and 2 metal cutters AK-630 (AK-306 was announced only in export version). But it's still not enough for us ... Instead of a helicopter, you can install a container with missiles (leave the BUGAS at the same time), and instead of a helicopter, place drones on the deck. Here's an anti-submarine for you, including any configuration of missiles, including missile-torpedoes ... It's still not enough for us ...
    And 22160 .... The ship is shit, spiteful critics shout, there is no weapon ... These are patrolmen !!!!! Maybe not ideal (and what, damn it, perfect ??? Maybe Zumwalt?), But they quite fulfill their function! Or do you want to send BODs and cruisers to jam pirates again ???? And who believes that 22160 is really modular? This was simply stated to justify the construction of such ships in a hectic time that the fleet needs, but without the newfangled Calibers. So they said that if anything, they will install .... And so, military patrolman, this is the replacement of the coast guard ships outside the 200 mile zone. That's all ... So it should be clear to anyone that 22160 are ONLY patrolmen (at least the 1st triple). Tests on them are carried out only because there are no other ships (20386 has not yet been built, and tests should be carried out now.) Perhaps the second three patrolmen will be more successful, but here you need to wait until they are launched.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 20 August 2020 03: 32 New
      -2
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      stop indulging in sophistry

      indulge ... YOU, and I bring facts
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      Wikipedia to the rescue

      it is noticeable that YOU have "knowledge" lol "pedivic level" laughing
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      We must talk about warships

      THERE ARE NO SUCH
      there are SHIPS
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      distinguish specially modular ships from any other

      wassat
      WHAT FOR? "polish the look" "The innovations of modularity" wassat ?
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      For modules, we have declared only 20386, 22160

      Not only
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      But the author does not say a word about the use of MODULES on these vessels.

      fool
      Monsieur, do you have "google on coupons"? laughing
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      But what is the problem of using modules on them ????

      fool
      YOU GENERALLY READ YOUR ARTICLE?!?!?
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      We say shit, this cannot be used on other ships (which is not a fact!),

      Well, do the analysis, YksperD from pedivikia wink waitingC
      I personally - spent (within the framework of one serious document)
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      It follows from the ship's diagram that the container BUGAS

      fool
      those. YOU DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE ... AND YOU DIDN'T SEE THE DIAGRAMS BY THE BUGAS
      but on 20386 YOU ... "indulge" lol
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      the helicopter is not allowed when installing the container with missiles

      for a ship under 4000t the largest "choice" of vert or rocket sounds BOOKING
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      That is, we get a DMZ ship with GAS, BuGAS, an anti-submarine helicopter and Packet-NK, while it also has 8 Uraniums, PU Redut for 16 cells, a 100-mm artillery unit and 2 metal cutters AK-630 (AK-306 was announced only in export version). But it's still not enough for us ...

      naturally
      for the enemy's PL is a fat GAME
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      place drones on the deck instead of a helicopter.

      FROM THIS PLACE, LEARN MORE PLIZZ
      I promise not to laugh loudly and not to kick laughing
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      Instead of a helicopter, you can install a container with missiles (leave the BuGAS at the same time), and instead of a helicopter, place drones on the deck. Here's an anti-submarine for you, including any configuration of missiles, including missile-torpedoes ... It's still not enough for us ...

      fool
      Musier from pedivikia! lol
      this YOUR "protivokhlodochnik" will be twice weaker than the multipurpose "Karakurt" (displacement and cost FOUR times LESS) - that is, the difference about the criterion "efficiency / cost" is EIGHT TIMES
      And if YOU personally like to cut out tonsils through the anus, then you do not need to offer this to the fleet!
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      These are the patrolmen !!!!!

      MUSIER, YOU HAVE READ AN ARTICLE?!?!? HORSERADISH! For there it was clearly written that 22160 as a "patrolman" is a * ov- "patrolman", for a number of reasons, incl. extremely low seaworthiness when solving problems (using vert and boats)
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      Or do you want to send BODs and cruisers to jam pirates again ????

      a long time ago it was possible to take all 3 buildings of project 1135P to the PSKR BOKHR, ensuring the PERMANENT presence of one of them in the Indian Ocean
      etc.
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      And so, a military patrolman, this is the replacement of coast guard ships outside the 200 mile zone

      wassat
      fool
      Quote: Vyacheslav
      Tests are carried out on them only because there are no other ships (20386 has not yet been built, and tests must be carried out now).

      YYYYYYYY ...
      these tests could be carried out on the BARGE !!!!!
      1. Kart
        Kart 20 August 2020 10: 20 New
        -2
        Quote: Fizik M
        MUSIER, YOU HAVE READ AN ARTICLE?!?!? HORSERADISH!

        It is known what is written on the fence nearby.
        Have you read it? And why? Don't believe me?
  • g1washntwn
    g1washntwn 20 August 2020 07: 55 New
    0
    Quote: Maxim Ermakov
    Just an indication from a soulless machine where to put.

    You missed the moment that any machine is controlled by a person and this factor has not gone anywhere. Variations on how to enter the variables you need in the example of a disabled Iranian centrifuge control system. And we do not break anything, we simply optimize the logistics formula with our data. Everyone, "our" containers are at the top and "only two know about it."
  • Alexander Zima
    Alexander Zima 20 August 2020 08: 34 New
    -1
    Read the military doctrine of the Russian Federation ... everything is written there ... any attack on the Russian Federation with a missile or similar crap .. there will be a response with a nuclear thing at the enemy ... and this is the end of the world ... so is it worth spending even more money on still bulky ships ... to scare the enemy ... and small ones are for driving away curious people from the borders of the Russian Federation, but there are so many traitors and pests in the Russian Federation ... who thought about the sweet life for the betrayal burned to hell.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 20 August 2020 12: 08 New
      +1
      Quote: Alexander Zima
      Read the military doctrine of the Russian Federation ... everything is written there ... any attack on the Russian Federation with a missile or similar crap ... there will be a response to the enemy with a nuclear thing ...

      fool
      YOU READ IT YOURSELF FIRST
      before you spank nonsense on the forum lol
  • Kart
    Kart 20 August 2020 10: 12 New
    -2
    Obviously, the construction of new ships of Project 22160 is out of the question, and something needs to be done with those already built.

    Well, what to do? You know that - immediately throw off the power.
    And immediately the construction of any ships will stop, the poor people will finally breathe freely, everyone will drive expensive cars, and with free iPhones.
    The new government will immediately sell everything built for scrap.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 20 August 2020 12: 06 New
      -1
      Quote: Carte
      You know that - immediately throw off the power.

      wassat
      analysisЫ YOUR "streams of inconscience and delirium" if you please not on the forum, but to the doctors
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 20 August 2020 11: 58 New
    -1
    I, of course, wildly apologize, but the patrol ships of Project 22160 are not warships from the word at all. These are rather large ships for the coast guard with a very large autonomy and the ability to take on board a large number of additional. staff. In size, they are almost 2 times larger than "karakurt", which makes the comparison of their cost rather strange.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 20 August 2020 12: 05 New
      0
      Quote: EvilLion
      In size, they are almost 2 times larger than "karakurt", which makes the comparison of their cost rather strange.

      1. This is an absolutely normal comparison of two projects when solving the same problems
      2. As a patrolman, 22160 - ** vno-project
      3. Having played enough with its progenitor (22460), the Guardians returned to ordering half the size of "Fireflies"
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 20 August 2020 12: 33 New
        0
        I, of course, wildly apologize, but you wrote enchanting nonsense. "Karakurt" are purely combat ships with rigidly prescribed functionality. It should not perform coastal defense tasks, conditionally, "karakurt" is a small and very predatory leopard, and 22160 is a large herbivorous antelope. The question can be posed whether the coast guard needs a ship the size of an average corvette, but like a helicopter, boats, people for all this, cells for keeping offenders, and we actually have a floating base.
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 20 August 2020 12: 50 New
          0
          Quote: EvilLion
          Does the coast guard need a ship the size of an average corvette, but like a helicopter, boats, people for all this, cameras for keeping offenders, and we actually have a floating base.

          Generally it is needed, but not at all theaters. For the World Cup, BM, KM 10410 is quite enough.
          But in the North and the Far East, as a rule, other ships are needed ...
          Type of such
        2. Fizik M
          Fizik M 20 August 2020 14: 15 New
          -1
          Quote: EvilLion
          confinement cells

          there is no camera, there is a "gym"
          whose "purpose" is to do so so that the landing force does not accidentally kick the crew
          belay
          and this is not a joke, but a literal phrase of one of the "fathers of this roJECT" wassat
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 20 August 2020 12: 09 New
    0
    Quote: Carte
    It is known that not far on the fence, have you read it? And why?

    fool
    MUSIER, NOT IN THE FENCE, AND THE ARTICLE IS FACTS
    so wipe up your rambling delirium
  • mik193
    mik193 20 August 2020 12: 53 New
    +1
    Best of all, in my opinion, about the modularity of ships is written in the article "Modular virus ...", indicated in the footnote. The construction and adoption of such ships used to be called very clearly - sabotage. Well, now it's getting away with it.
    Well, about 22160 - a pleasure yacht for beach conditions is correctly called. If you really need a patrol ship, at least look at someone else's experience (who has the patrol ships, what they are and what they do). For example, let's jump 40 years back. Three North Cape patrol ships were built for the Norwegian Navy. Ice-class hull (which is also important for our fleet), diesel installation, long cruising range. They were at sea in almost any weather. Having good hydroacoustics (including GAS with GPBA), they did not hesitate to enter our test sites. A helicopter is permanently based on board, it has PLO torpedo tubes. I'm afraid to lie, but the ships had two replacement crews. In my opinion, even the old man has something to borrow ...
    1. keleg
      keleg 31 August 2020 13: 24 New
      0
      The displacement is twice as much, i.e. you can't build it in Zelenodolsk. Alas.
      22160 has already walked around Europe several times. And without a tug, like our first ranks.
      So what about the "beach conditions" - an obvious bend.
  • Radikal
    Radikal 20 August 2020 18: 37 New
    +2
    Third. "Modular ships"

    More than enough is said about project 20386 in the article "Worse than a crime. Construction of project 20386 corvettes is a mistake."
    And why is the author "fuming"? Do these parades look valid at parades? And then! People hawala? Not just hawala - pi ... shield in orgasm! Is the goal achieved? But how! And as for the effectiveness, thoughtfulness, expediency and other "archaic" in the opinion of "effective" managers, and those who appoint them to all kinds of USC qualities, this is not about them, this is not the main thing for them. The main thing for them is "stacking", "cutting", in short - the development of "bobossiks", "green" tugriks, "cabbage" - well, you understand, right? In general, war is bullshit, the main thing is ... to cut some money in an easy way. For them. And for us? sad
  • 231165
    231165 20 August 2020 21: 51 New
    +1
    Mina burns out again.
  • Seaflame
    Seaflame 21 August 2020 01: 03 New
    +1
    Conclusions must be made and personnel! For pushing this project from someone it is necessary to rip off the shoulder straps, and maybe an investigation into the corruption component.
    1. timokhin-aa
      21 August 2020 08: 04 New
      0
      The pusher of this project has already taken off his shoulder straps and got a job at the USC in a very warm place.
  • Kuzmich Sibiryakov
    Kuzmich Sibiryakov 21 August 2020 17: 33 New
    -3
    Many letters - few thoughts.
    In KB I was taught by luminaries to start development FROM HUMAN and to come at the end TO MAN.
    In other words, to start thinking about what a person will do, having what I was going to develop. And the lion's share of the time I have to think FOR HIM.
    Container. Why the hell should I read here about the thickness of the deck under the container? Why the hell should I consider the weight distribution on the sides, midships, etc. here? Why the hell to compare the good location of inclined and non-inclined mines. The main thing in this bodyage is DISCOVERY. Thousands of container ships, bulk carriers, seiners and trawlers may well have this mallet. Go track everything. Especially. that in the modern world Satan himself will break his leg in the search for the owner of the ship, his registration, and tenants. Hanging out for some devil near some island in the ocean? And, not even turning off the identifier. What is it called there, will tell who remembers. If you think in this way, then bravo to the inventor. No one can guarantee that hundreds of our crab catchers are not already catching crab at the starting points. Replacing each other is quite legal. With a container on the upper deck.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 21 August 2020 18: 21 New
      +1
      Quote: Kuzmich Sibiryakov
      In KB I was taught by luminaries to start development FROM HUMAN and come at the end TO HUMAN

      in YOUR "KB" (in quotes) developed UNITASES? lol
      Quote: Kuzmich Sibiryakov
      Thousands of container ships, bulk carriers, seiners and trawlers may well have this mallet.

      wassat
      YOU are generally aware of what kind of trash you are talking about? fool or YOU from the "6th chamber" write?!?!
      About the ACCOUNTING of containers - GUL TO HELP
      but about
      Quote: Kuzmich Sibiryakov
      not even turning off the identifier. What is it called there, will tell who remembers. If you think in this way, then bravo to the inventor. No one can guarantee that hundreds of our crab catchers are not already catching crab at the starting points. Replacing each other is quite legal.

      after which they are COMPLETELY LEGALLY (for NOT A WARSHIP = TERRITORY OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION) these "come to visit":



      The operator of the 2nd group of US Navy SEAL poses in front of the lifeboat of the captured tanker "Volgozneft-147"

      and in "YOUR case" they are not "the captured flag will show"

      а "GUT" THE COMMUNICATION EQUIPMENT AND CONTROL SYSTEMS AND GOSE OF ROCKETS !!!
      1. Kuzmich Sibiryakov
        Kuzmich Sibiryakov 22 August 2020 12: 18 New
        -1
        Quote: Fizik M
        Quote: Kuzmich Sibiryakov
        In KB I was taught by luminaries to start development FROM HUMAN and come at the end TO HUMAN

        in YOUR "KB" (in quotes) developed UNITASES? lol
        Quote: Kuzmich Sibiryakov
        Thousands of container ships, bulk carriers, seiners and trawlers may well have this mallet.

        wassat
        YOU are generally aware of what kind of trash you are talking about? fool or YOU from the "6th chamber" write?!?!
        About the ACCOUNTING of containers - GUL TO HELP
        but about
        Quote: Kuzmich Sibiryakov
        not even turning off the identifier. What is it called there, will tell who remembers. If you think in this way, then bravo to the inventor. No one can guarantee that hundreds of our crab catchers are not already catching crab at the starting points. Replacing each other is quite legal.

        after which they are COMPLETELY LEGALLY (for NOT A WARSHIP = TERRITORY OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION) these "come to visit":



        The operator of the 2nd group of US Navy SEAL poses in front of the lifeboat of the captured tanker "Volgozneft-147"

        and in "YOUR case" they are not "the captured flag will show"

        а "GUT" THE COMMUNICATION EQUIPMENT AND CONTROL SYSTEMS AND GOSE OF ROCKETS !!!

        Judging by your photos, you did just that yourself.
        Tell me, wounded fur seal, have you often visited enemy civilian ships like that, not covered by the rules of extraterritoriality? You survey the multitude in your life, how many, which ones, at what distance from your own shore ,? And then. what I was doing, I will not tell. Not because it is impossible, the subscription terms have already passed, but because. that your brick-trained brain won't understand.
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 22 August 2020 13: 51 New
          +1
          Quote: Kuzmich Sibiryakov
          Tell me, wounded

          go wipe it off
          and change pants lol
          Quote: Kuzmich Sibiryakov
          enemy civil ships not covered by rules extraterritoriality?

          fool
          WHAT? Monsieur, YOU ate mushrooms?!?!
          Americans wanted to sneeze on "legal aspects" (which are easily bypassed by Article 110 of Convention 82), and have demonstrated this many times!

          Quote: Kuzmich Sibiryakov
          And then. what I was doing, I will not tell. Not because you can't

          do not sweat, YOUR mega-super-toilet barbulator is of no interest to anyone laughing
  • timokhin-aa
    21 August 2020 20: 35 New
    0
    NOT, the BMP is worse. And the APC is worse.
    But in the Mi-8 it is incomparably better.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 21 August 2020 21: 12 New
      +1
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      NOT, the BMP is worse. And the APC is worse, but the Mi-8 is incomparably better.

      There is an interesting solution for Ka - hinged "cheeks".
      At the "Army" it will be necessary to discuss with Mikheev ...
    2. Fizik M
      Fizik M 21 August 2020 21: 14 New
      +1
      when it "squeezes" and so they fly:




      there are such photos with "Apaches"
      1. timokhin-aa
        22 August 2020 10: 55 New
        +1
        This is spetsura and not far away, but estimate an hour to fly over Barentsukha like that. And also to drag an ATGM and a couple of missiles with you.
        Specialists are one thing, landing is another, I do not argue that it is possible on the Ka-27PS, it's just very bad.
        And with Mikheev, discuss the new transport helicopter in the Ka-31 fuselage. They gutted him for the sake of antenna drives, there is a chance to decide with the height of the cabin in such a fuselage. And the width is normal there.
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 22 August 2020 13: 38 New
          +1
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          This is spetsura and not far away, and count an hour over Barentsukha so to fly

          specifically in the case of a patrolman, the "southern seas" are relevant to us, and there it is quite possible
          1. timokhin-aa
            22 August 2020 13: 41 New
            0
            As a half measure, yes, but in general something else is needed.
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 22 August 2020 13: 37 New
    +1
    was written in 2015.
    "Probable adversary."
    Corvettes of the Navy / Navy of various countries solve various problems, and often with excellent means, so direct comparison of them by performance characteristics is not correct. However, the experience of similar work of the “opponents” is of great interest here, especially the “problematic” one, primarily the US Navy to create corvettes (which eventually became frigates) of LCS. In the article “Double Excellence Scheme”, the author assessed the results of the LCS program as a huge failure, and the reasons for such an assessment need to be clarified.
    The main idea that was laid down in the LCS was to ensure the corvette's combat stability through a set of characteristics - low visibility, electronic warfare and high speed (which received a significant priority in the project load over anti-aircraft fire weapons). All this, when used in combat in a complex manner, theoretically made it possible, with good chances, to get away even from attacks by anti-ship missiles. At the same time, anti-aircraft fire weapons became purely secondary. This concept was quite working and in the most complete and perfect form was implemented on high-speed, inconspicuous skeg hovercraft RCAs of the Skeld type (Norwegian Navy). It seems that boats similar in concept would be very useful to the Russian Navy in a number of theaters. The great potential and experience of the domestic "Diamond" in creating hovercraft and composite shipbuilding allows us to count on the creation of a domestic analogue ("reduced and inconspicuous" development of the 1239 Sivuch project) with high performance characteristics.
    However, the US Navy decided to “hang” on this working concept the solution of anti-submarine and mine defense tasks (PLO and PMO), which clearly required a significant speed limit when working with ambient light sensors. 10 years ago, the American developers found the solution to this problem “simple and logical” - to place these sensors on crewless means, thereby ensuring the high speed and maneuverability of the LCS themselves, which in this case remained the role of a “high-speed and inconspicuous advanced" server "of the" network " deployed crewless systems and sensors. " In practice, it turned out differently - it is impractical to analyze the whole complex of LCS problems in the article, but a number of critical failures need to be cited.
    The first one. The development of an anti-submarine modification of a heavy semi-submersible RMV type missile equipped with a "standard" search engine of the US Navy ships - low-frequency active-passive GPA MFTA (including a radiating sonar section) ended in failure.
    The second one. Significant difficulties arose in providing in practice the effective operation of the specialized “light GPBA” for crewless boats (BEC).
    The third. The search complex of the BEC type “Draco” submarine (planned as the main standard weapon of the LCS) itself had low reliability. At the same time, the US Navy at the turn of 2010. had significant difficulties with the reliability of the new low-frequency helicopter lowered GAS (OGAS) AQS-22, the application of which was also planned at BEC "Draco". Despite the fact that these problems for helicopters were resolved, issues of reliable operation in BEC conditions (especially for low temperature conditions) remained.
    The result of this (and a number of other) failures was the installation directly on the LCS of a powerful low-frequency towed GAS (BUGAS) CAPTAS-4 (Tayles company). In the literal sense, ships had to be "treated with an autogen," fortunately, there was enough free space for this. However, after this, the LCS lost the ability, when solving the PLO problem, to have a big move (you cannot “run” with the BUGAS set), i.e. then, the main idea for which they were created.
    The question arises of the appropriateness of the initial LCS design, when a large percentage of displacement and cost was given instead of anti-aircraft fire weapons to a very powerful main power plant (GEM) for the sake of speed, which at the same time could not be implemented in practice when solving one of the main LCS tasks. Moreover - in those who lost the speed of LCS with BUGAS, the vulnerability to attacks by anti-ship missiles (including submarines) sharply increased. Obviously, the harsh criticism of LCS in the USA has serious grounds, and in the construction of modern frigates instead of LCS, the US Navy could get much more combat-ready and useful ships.
    In our case, taking into account the importance of the ASW task for the corvettes of the OVR of the Russian Navy, the negative experience of the US Navy with LCS is of interest to exclude its repetition
    .
    https://vpk.name/news/149995_boevye_sistemy_korvetov_ovr.html
  • rotkiv04
    rotkiv04 23 August 2020 06: 54 New
    0
    From the article one gets the impression that Chirkov is an idiot
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 23 August 2020 23: 41 New
      +3
      Quote: rotkiv04
      From the article one gets the impression that Chirkov is an idiot

      no he is not
      Vitek is a very cunning monsieur. Only on the fleet and its combat readiness, he "wanted to sneeze", but he "keeps his tail in the wind"
  • ZEMCH
    ZEMCH 5 September 2020 11: 50 New
    0
    Quote: Boris Chernikov
    of the world trend, at the end of the XNUMXs and the beginning of the tenths everyone was striving for modularity .. I repeat ... the question is not "bad or good modularity in others", but in how it will be implemented in the end with us, if they can do that the ship to convert from an anti-submarine to a drummer in one day, then it will be good

    I am not in the General Staff, but I understand modularity roughly as the Chinese with their 056A corvette, i.e. during construction, the modules that are needed are integrated into the ship's hull. The VI is approximately the same, the GEM is the same. We get serial production and actually reduce the cost.
    You can talk a lot about universal ships, but the versatility of one pennant is always worse than the order of different types, specialized for solving a specific task.
    Here the question is different: - What tasks are set for our Navy?
  • Siberian54
    Siberian54 28 September 2020 15: 29 New
    0
    not an expert .. but reading materials about the fleet came to the conclusion: there is a struggle for the future. so this is war or discourse ??